New York Times bestselling author Lysa TerKeurst joins Jason Daye to help pastors and ministry leaders recognize when good intentions, responsibility, and care can quietly turn into control.

Can good intentions quietly become control in ministry? New York Times bestselling author Lysa TerKeurst joins Jason Daye to help pastors and ministry leaders examine the line between faithful responsibility and trying to manage outcomes that ultimately belong to God.

Ministry leaders often want genuinely good things. We want people to grow, churches to flourish, relationships to heal, wise decisions to be made, and our ministries to bear meaningful fruit. But what happens when our conviction that something good should happen begins making us feel responsible for ensuring that it does?

Lysa is president and chief visionary officer of Proverbs 31 Ministries and the author of eight New York Times bestsellers. Her newest book, Making Peace with What I Can’t Control, explores the exhaustion that comes from overthinking, trying to change others, and carrying responsibility for things beyond our control.

In this conversation, Lysa and Jason explore why capable, caring leaders can struggle to recognize control in themselves, why releasing people may sometimes be easier than releasing outcomes, and the provocative lesson Lysa draws from Judas, who may have become so convinced of the outcome he believed was right that he tried to move Jesus toward it.

Together they discuss:

• Why the leaders who care the most may be the least likely to recognize control in themselves
• What happens when helping someone becomes needing them to change
• Why surrendering people may be easier than surrendering what happens next
• What Judas may reveal about trying to move God toward an outcome we believe is right
• How a genuinely good desire can become something we were never meant to carry
• What may be hiding beneath the exhaustion of feeling responsible for everything

If you are a pastor or ministry leader who feels deeply responsible for people, decisions, and what happens next, this conversation offers an important invitation to examine where faithfulness ends and control begins. We can care deeply, lead responsibly, and pursue what is good without assuming responsibility for outcomes that ultimately belong to God.

Looking to dig more deeply into this topic and conversation? FrontStage BackStage is much more than another church leadership show, it is a complete resource to help you and your ministry leaders grow. Every week we go the extra mile and create a free toolkit so you and your ministry team can dive deeper into the topic that is discussed.

Visit http://PastorServe.org/network to find the Weekly Toolkit, including the Ministry Leaders Growth Guide. Our team pulls key insights and quotes from every conversation with our guests. We also create engaging questions for you and your team to consider and process, providing space for you to reflect on how each episode's topic relates to your unique church context. Use these questions in your staff meetings, or other settings, to guide your conversation as you invest in the growth of your ministry leaders.

Love well, live well, & lead well

Complimentary Coaching Session for Pastors http://PastorServe.org/freesession

Follow PastorServe LinkedIn | Twitter | Instagram | Facebook

Connect with Jason Daye LinkedIn | Instagram

PastorServe founder Jimmy Dodd joins Jason Daye to explore why pastors and ministry leaders need trusted people to turn to before ministry challenges become crises.

What happens when a pastor needs help but doesn't know who to trust? In this week's conversation on FrontStage BackStage, PastorServe founder Jimmy Dodd joins host Jason Daye to explore why pastors and ministry leaders need safe people to turn to before challenges become crises.

Ministry can leave leaders carrying things they are unsure how to name or where to take. It may be conflict, feeling stuck, strain in a marriage or family, leadership pressure, or something far more serious. Yet the very nature of pastoral ministry can make it difficult to raise your hand and say, "I need help."

Jimmy knows that tension personally. After years as a pastor and church planter, he reached a point when his public ministry looked healthy while his private life was unraveling. Finding a healthy path through that experience helped shape the vision that eventually became PastorServe, which for more than 27 years has walked alongside pastors and ministry leaders through coaching, soul care, consulting, and crisis support.

Together they discuss:

• Why pastors can struggle to know whom they can safely talk to
• What we risk when we keep carrying something because it does not yet feel serious enough to ask for help
• How ordinary ministry strain can quietly become something much harder to navigate
• What may be happening when the front stage no longer matches the backstage
• Why we can reveal almost everything while still holding back what we fear most
• What churches can do to make it easier for pastors to seek help before they reach a crisis

If you're a pastor or ministry leader who feels stuck, overwhelmed, isolated, or simply needs someone outside your immediate ministry context to help you process what you're carrying, you do not have to wait until things fall apart. Sometimes the healthiest next step is simply having someone trustworthy to talk to.

Looking to dig more deeply into this topic and conversation? FrontStage BackStage is much more than another church leadership show, it is a complete resource to help you and your ministry leaders grow. Every week we go the extra mile and create a free toolkit so you and your ministry team can dive deeper into the topic that is discussed.

Visit http://PastorServe.org/network to find the Weekly Toolkit, including the Ministry Leaders Growth Guide. Our team pulls key insights and quotes from every conversation with our guests. We also create engaging questions for you and your team to consider and process, providing space for you to reflect on how each episode's topic relates to your unique church context. Use these questions in your staff meetings, or other settings, to guide your conversation as you invest in the growth of your ministry leaders.

Love well, live well, & lead well

Complimentary Coaching Session for Pastors http://PastorServe.org/freesession

Follow PastorServe LinkedIn | Twitter | Instagram | Facebook

Connect with Jason Daye LinkedIn | Instagram

Leadership and organizational health expert Patrick Lencioni joins Jason Daye to explore how pastors can discern genuine ministry fruit, resist the pressure to chase growth, and build healthy teams rooted in humility, trust, and dependence on God.

How do you know if your ministry is actually bearing fruit? In this week's conversation on FrontStage BackStage, leadership and organizational health expert Patrick Lencioni joins host Jason Daye to explore how pastors and ministry leaders can think differently about growth, effectiveness, healthy teams, and faithfulness to God.

Those of us in ministry want to see lives changed and people drawn closer to Jesus. But that good desire can quietly become a pursuit of growth, scale, numbers, or visible impact. And because those outcomes are often easier to quantify, they can begin shaping how we understand our own effectiveness, leaving us encouraged by apparent progress or discouraged when the numbers don't reflect what we hoped to see. Patrick challenges us to examine what we are actually chasing and to consider the difference between the outcomes we can easily quantify and the genuine fruit God produces through faithful ministry.

Patrick is the founder and president of The Table Group and the author of thirteen books that have sold more than ten million copies worldwide, including The Five Dysfunctions of a Team, The Advantage, and The Motive. Drawing from decades of work with leaders and organizations, as well as his own faith, Patrick also shares why the health of the teams carrying out our ministry matters deeply.

Together they discuss:

• Why ministry growth and measurable outcomes are not necessarily the same as genuine fruit
• How pastors can evaluate ministry effectiveness without becoming driven by metrics
• What may be hiding beneath our desire to grow and scale a ministry
• Why humility and vulnerability are so essential to building healthy ministry teams
• The key action leaders can take to help their teams experience greater vulnerability and trust
• Why even the healthiest leaders and teams never outgrow their dependence on God

If you're a pastor or ministry leader wondering how to faithfully evaluate whether your ministry is making a difference, this conversation offers a thoughtful way forward. Fruit matters. Team health matters. Effectiveness matters. But none of these require us to manufacture outcomes God never asked us to control. We can pursue healthy, effective ministry while remaining faithful to what God has called us to do and dependent on Him for the fruit.

Looking to dig more deeply into this topic and conversation? FrontStage BackStage is much more than another church leadership show, it is a complete resource to help you and your ministry leaders grow. Every week we go the extra mile and create a free toolkit so you and your ministry team can dive deeper into the topic that is discussed.

Visit http://PastorServe.org/network to find the Weekly Toolkit, including the Ministry Leaders Growth Guide. Our team pulls key insights and quotes from every conversation with our guests. We also create engaging questions for you and your team to consider and process, providing space for you to reflect on how each episode's topic relates to your unique church context. Use these questions in your staff meetings, or other settings, to guide your conversation as you invest in the growth of your ministry leaders.

Love well, live well, & lead well

Complimentary Coaching Session for Pastors http://PastorServe.org/freesession

Follow PastorServe LinkedIn | Twitter | Instagram | Facebook

Connect with Jason Daye LinkedIn | Instagram

Pastors spend so much time thinking about what God has called them to do. But who are we becoming while we do it? Jen Pollock Michel joins Jason Daye to explore the often-unnoticed forces shaping us in ministry and how we can become more intentional about being formed by God.

Who are you becoming while you lead? In this week's conversation on FrontStage BackStage, award-winning author Jen Pollock Michel joins host Jason Daye to explore how pastors and ministry leaders are being spiritually formed, often without even realizing it.

Those of us in ministry spend enormous amounts of energy thinking about what God has called us to do. We lead, disciple, preach, care for people, and respond to the seemingly endless demands of ministry. But in the midst of all that activity, how much attention are we giving to who we are becoming?

Jen is a sought-after speaker whose writing has appeared in Christianity Today, The Dispatch, and The Christian Century. She also leads retreats and workshops focused on developing a Rule of Life, and her latest book, *A Rule for the Rest of Us*, explores how we can live more intentionally as we seek to be formed by God.

Jen and Jason explore the forces quietly shaping our lives, why spiritual formation can feel frustratingly slow, and how we can resist simply drifting through ministry and life.

Together they discuss:

• Why ministry leaders can become more focused on what we're doing for God than how we're being formed by God
• Why productivity often feels more satisfying than the slow work of spiritual formation
• How rest can become an expression of trust in God rather than simply time away from work
• How individualism, self-protection, and our desire for comfort can quietly shape our lives and churches
• Why our phones can make us more solitary in community and less capable of genuine solitude
• How a Rule of Life can help us resist drift and live more intentionally with Jesus

If you're a pastor or ministry leader who spends much of your life thinking about the people you're leading and the work God has entrusted to you, this conversation offers an important invitation to consider your own formation. Faithful ministry isn't only about what God is accomplishing through us. It also means paying attention to who God is patiently forming us to become.

Looking to dig more deeply into this topic and conversation? FrontStage BackStage is much more than another church leadership show, it is a complete resource to help you and your ministry leaders grow. Every week we go the extra mile and create a free toolkit so you and your ministry team can dive deeper into the topic that is discussed.

Visit http://PastorServe.org/network to find the Weekly Toolkit, including the Ministry Leaders Growth Guide. Our team pulls key insights and quotes from every conversation with our guests. We also create engaging questions for you and your team to consider and process, providing space for you to reflect on how each episode's topic relates to your unique church context. Use these questions in your staff meetings, or other settings, to guide your conversation as you invest in the growth of your ministry leaders.

Love well, live well, & lead well

Complimentary Coaching Session for Pastors http://PastorServe.org/freesession

Follow PastorServe LinkedIn | Twitter | Instagram | Facebook

Connect with Jason Daye LinkedIn | Instagram

Pastors and ministry leaders often carry wounds that shape far more than their ministry. Scott Sauls shares why some of God's deepest work happens not through our strengths and successes, but through our struggles, weaknesses, and dependence on Christ.

Pastors and ministry leaders facing ministry hurt, leadership wounds, discouragement, or seasons of suffering will find encouragement in this conversation with Scott Sauls. Together, Scott and host Jason Daye explore why some of God's deepest work often happens not through our strengths and successes, but through our weaknesses, disappointments, and dependence on Christ.

In ministry, it can be tempting to push through pain, ignore wounds, and measure our effectiveness by visible outcomes. We often believe the next accomplishment, opportunity, or milestone will bring the fulfillment we long for. Yet many ministry leaders discover that success alone cannot sustain the soul.

In this conversation, Scott Sauls and host Jason Daye discuss a different path. Drawing from Scripture, personal experience, and themes explored in Scott's book The Mercy King, they explore how ministry begins not by giving, but by first receiving from Jesus. They reflect on the reality of ministry hurt, the subtle dangers of defining ourselves by success, and the surprising ways God uses suffering to deepen our wisdom, maturity, and dependence upon Him.

Rather than viewing wounds as obstacles to overcome, Scott invites ministry leaders to consider how God often meets us most deeply in the very places we would rather avoid. The struggles we seek to escape may become the places where Christ forms us most profoundly.

Together they discuss:

• Why we cannot give what we have not first received from Jesus
• How pastors and ministry leaders can navigate hurt and disappointment in ministry
• The hidden dangers of defining ministry success by influence and accomplishment
• Why suffering often becomes one of God's greatest tools for growth and wisdom
• What leaders can learn from Paul's thorn in the flesh
• How healing and dependence on Christ can deepen ministry effectiveness
• Why some of God's most transformative work happens through weakness rather than strength

If you're a pastor or ministry leader carrying disappointment, ministry hurt, leadership fatigue, or questions about your effectiveness, this conversation offers a refreshing reminder that God often accomplishes His deepest work through weakness rather than strength. Scripture repeatedly reveals that God forms His servants most profoundly through the very struggles they would never choose for themselves. Whether you're navigating ministry wounds, spiritual fatigue, or a difficult season of leadership, you'll discover encouragement to receive from Christ, depend more fully upon Him, and find renewed strength for long-term faithfulness in life and leadership.

Looking to dig more deeply into this topic and conversation? FrontStage BackStage is much more than another church leadership show, it is a complete resource to help you and your ministry leaders grow. Every week we go the extra mile and create a free toolkit so you and your ministry team can dive deeper into the topic that is discussed.

Visit http://PastorServe.org/network to find the Weekly Toolkit, including the Ministry Leaders Growth Guide. Our team pulls key insights and quotes from every conversation with our guests. We also create engaging questions for you and your team to consider and process, providing space for you to reflect on how each episode's topic relates to your unique church context. Use these questions in your staff meetings, or other settings, to guide your conversation as you invest in the growth of your ministry leaders.

Love well, live well, & lead well

Complimentary Coaching Session for Pastors http://PastorServe.org/freesession

Follow PastorServe LinkedIn | Twitter | Instagram | Facebook

Connect with Jason Daye LinkedIn | Instagram

Can leadership be too optimized? In this week's conversation on FrontStage BackStage, Eric Geiger joins host Jason Daye to explore why lasting leadership requires more than better systems, sharper strategies, and greater competency. Drawing from the story of Nehemiah and his book The Rooted Leader, Eric shares why our world desperately needs leaders whose vision, decisions, and leadership flow from deep roots of burden, belief, and dependence on God.

In a culture obsessed with optimization, many pastors and ministry leaders feel pressure to improve, refine, and maximize every aspect of their leadership. While growth and effectiveness matter, Eric offers a timely reminder that leadership can become dangerously self-reliant when competency begins to replace dependence on God. True leadership health is formed beneath the surface.

Together they discuss:

• Why burden and belief are the necessary roots beneath true vision
• How the pursuit of optimization can subtly move leaders from dependence on God toward confidence in their own abilities
• Why faithful leadership requires both perseverance in the fight and trust that God is fighting for us
• How healthy leaders embrace both restlessness for God's mission and intentional rhythms of rest
• Why focusing only on the visible fruit of leadership can cause leaders to neglect the deeper roots that sustain long-term ministry

Eric also shares personal reflections on rest, family, and leadership sustainability, including how trusted leaders around him help ensure he cares well for himself and those closest to him. His honesty serves as a reminder of the importance of finding those who can help us care well for both others and ourselves.

If you are a pastor or ministry leader seeking to grow in leadership while remaining deeply dependent on God, this conversation offers both encouragement and challenge. Lasting ministry fruit is never produced by optimization alone. It grows from leaders who cultivate deep roots of faith, trust, conviction, and dependence on the One who ultimately builds His Church.

Looking to dig more deeply into this topic and conversation? FrontStage BackStage is much more than another church leadership show, it is a complete resource to help you and your ministry leaders grow. Every week we go the extra mile and create a free toolkit so you and your ministry team can dive deeper into the topic that is discussed.

Visit http://PastorServe.org/network to find the Weekly Toolkit, including the Ministry Leaders Growth Guide. Our team pulls key insights and quotes from every conversation with our guests. We also create engaging questions for you and your team to consider and process, providing space for you to reflect on how each episode's topic relates to your unique church context. Use these questions in your staff meetings, or other settings, to guide your conversation as you invest in the growth of your ministry leaders.

Love well, live well, & lead well

Complimentary Coaching Session for Pastors http://PastorServe.org/freesession

Follow PastorServe LinkedIn | Twitter | Instagram | Facebook

Connect with Jason Daye LinkedIn | Instagram

Many pastors and ministry leaders are running at a pace their souls cannot sustain. What feels normal on the outside can quietly erode your interior life, leaving you depleted, distracted, and disconnected from God in ways that are hard to name.

In this highlight from our conversation (https://youtu.be/l9ewVLxh0vI?si=zBB0SfJkAPLx9xjN), host Jason Daye sits down with John Eldredge to explore why the pace of modern life is so dangerous to the soul. What often looks like faithfulness and responsibility can slowly become a rhythm that your soul simply cannot keep up with.

Together, John and Jason discuss:

• Why the pace of modern ministry life is unsustainable for the soul
• How constant pressure, digital overload, and urgency reshape your inner life
• Why exhaustion is often deeper than physical fatigue
• The role of beauty, rest, and quiet in restoring your humanity
• Why emotional honesty is essential for spiritual vitality
• How slowing down becomes an act of trust, not weakness
• Practical ways to create space for your soul to breathe again

This episode will resonate deeply with pastors and ministry leaders who feel stretched thin but cannot seem to slow down. It offers a clear and hopeful invitation to recover a healthier pace and rediscover a grounded, life-giving relationship with God.

Looking to dig more deeply into this topic and conversation? FrontStage BackStage is much more than another church leadership show, it is a complete resource to help you and your ministry leaders grow. Every week we go the extra mile and create a free toolkit so you and your ministry team can dive deeper into the topic that is discussed.

Visit http://PastorServe.org/network to find the Weekly Toolkit, including the Ministry Leaders Growth Guide. Our team pulls key insights and quotes from every conversation with our guests. We also create engaging questions for you and your team to consider and process, providing space for you to reflect on how each episode's topic relates to your unique church context. Use these questions in your staff meetings, or other settings, to guide your conversation as you invest in the growth of your ministry leaders.

Love well, live well, & lead well

Complimentary Coaching Session for Pastors http://PastorServe.org/freesession

Follow PastorServe LinkedIn | Twitter | Instagram | Facebook

Connect with Jason Daye LinkedIn | Instagram

How should Christians think about patriotism in an age of growing political division? In this highlight from our full conversation (https://youtu.be/h2ZY3rSYjXM?si=xtjZY2aNII4QFVDD), Paul D. Miller joins host Jason Daye to explore the important distinction between patriotism and Christian nationalism. Drawing from history, theology, and Scripture, Paul offers a thoughtful framework for helping pastors and ministry leaders faithfully navigate questions of citizenship, public witness, and the kingdom of God.

Many ministry leaders find themselves shepherding people with deeply held political convictions while also wrestling with their own questions about faith and public life. In a culture that often confuses allegiance to Christ with allegiance to a nation, Paul challenges Christians to cultivate both gratitude for their country and humility about its shortcomings. Rather than seeking cultural dominance, he points us toward a distinctly Christian vision of loving our neighbors by pursuing peace, justice, and the common good.

Together Jason and Paul discuss:

• The important difference between patriotism and Christian nationalism
• Why Christians can love their country while honestly acknowledging its failures
• How Augustine's understanding of the "city of man" helps shape faithful civic engagement
• Why believers can work alongside those of different beliefs in pursuit of peace, order, and justice
• How the kingdom of God reshapes the way Christians think about influence, politics, and public witness

Paul also reflects on why Christians should resist the temptation to seek cultural or political supremacy. Instead, he encourages believers to remember that Christ alone establishes His kingdom, freeing us to pursue justice, love our neighbors well, and faithfully represent Jesus in the public square.

If you are a pastor or ministry leader seeking to navigate today's cultural and political tensions with biblical wisdom, this conversation offers a thoughtful and Christ-centered perspective. As followers of Jesus, our ultimate hope is never found in political influence or national identity, but in the unshakable kingdom of God that Christ has already inaugurated and will one day fully establish.

Looking to dig more deeply into this topic and conversation? FrontStage BackStage is much more than another church leadership show, it is a complete resource to help you and your ministry leaders grow. Every week we go the extra mile and create a free toolkit so you and your ministry team can dive deeper into the topic that is discussed.

Visit http://PastorServe.org/network to find the Weekly Toolkit, including the Ministry Leaders Growth Guide. Our team pulls key insights and quotes from every conversation with our guests. We also create engaging questions for you and your team to consider and process, providing space for you to reflect on how each episode's topic relates to your unique church context. Use these questions in your staff meetings, or other settings, to guide your conversation as you invest in the growth of your ministry leaders.

Love well, live well, & lead well

Complimentary Coaching Session for Pastors http://PastorServe.org/freesession

Follow PastorServe LinkedIn | Twitter | Instagram | Facebook

Connect with Jason Daye LinkedIn | Instagram

Depression and faith often collide in painful ways. Many pastors and ministry leaders quietly carry a question they rarely say out loud: If my faith is real, why do I feel this way?

In this highlight from our full conversation (https://youtu.be/mqBRrECLTLE?si=X0CIRi5G6uxI-1U-), host Jason Daye sits down with Diana Gruver to explore the tension between depression and spiritual identity. Rather than offering quick answers, Diana brings a compassionate and historically grounded perspective that reframes how we understand emotional darkness in the Christian life. Through the lens of church history and personal reflection, this conversation helps leaders step out of shame and into a more honest understanding of what it means to walk with God in difficult seasons. Depression is a human experience that even some of the Church’s greatest saints have endured.

Together, Diana and Jason discuss:

• Why depression often leads to shame and isolation for Christians
• How well-known figures in church history experienced deep emotional struggle
• Why depression is not a sign of weak or failing faith
• How God’s presence is not dependent on our emotional state
• Why simplistic answers can deepen pain instead of healing it
• How the church can respond with presence, patience, and care
• Ways leaders can create safer spaces for honest conversations

If you are carrying this quietly, this conversation will help you name what is real and rediscover that God has not stepped away from you. This is especially meaningful for pastors and ministry leaders who are trying to remain faithful while navigating unseen internal battles.

Looking to dig more deeply into this topic and conversation? FrontStage BackStage is much more than another church leadership show, it is a complete resource to help you and your ministry leaders grow. Every week we go the extra mile and create a free toolkit so you and your ministry team can dive deeper into the topic that is discussed.

Visit http://PastorServe.org/network to find the Weekly Toolkit, including the Ministry Leaders Growth Guide. Our team pulls key insights and quotes from every conversation with our guests. We also create engaging questions for you and your team to consider and process, providing space for you to reflect on how each episode's topic relates to your unique church context. Use these questions in your staff meetings, or other settings, to guide your conversation as you invest in the growth of your ministry leaders.

Love well, live well, & lead well

Complimentary Coaching Session for Pastors http://PastorServe.org/freesession

Follow PastorServe LinkedIn | Twitter | Instagram | Facebook

Connect with Jason Daye LinkedIn | Instagram

Many pastors and ministry leaders reach a point where they feel spiritually drained, even while faithfully serving, leading, and doing what they believe God has called them to do. The work continues, but something underneath feels thin, distant, or depleted.

In this highlight from a conversation with Ken Shigematsu (https://youtu.be/60n3ZtoAyzY?si=wEdQ5W95CpATZujX ), host Jason Daye explores why spiritual exhaustion is so common in ministry and what it reveals about how we are living. Ken shares how a rule of life is not about adding more to your schedule, but about reordering your life around rhythms that allow you to receive from God instead of constantly pouring out.

Rather than striving harder, spiritual renewal often begins by slowing down. Through practices like prayer, rest, delight, and attentiveness, leaders can begin to reconnect with God in a way that restores both identity and joy.

In this conversation, Ken and Jason explore:

• Why pastors and ministry leaders often feel spiritually drained despite doing meaningful work
• How productivity culture quietly shapes identity and disconnects us from God
• Why a rule of life helps leaders live from God’s love instead of striving for it
• How spiritual rhythms restore clarity, joy, and presence in everyday life
• Why embracing limits is essential for long-term health in ministry
• Practical ways to begin building a sustainable rule of life

This episode will resonate with pastors and ministry leaders who feel spiritually exhausted and want to rediscover a deeper, more grounded life with God that flows from grace rather than pressure.

Looking to dig more deeply into this topic and conversation? FrontStage BackStage is much more than another church leadership show, it is a complete resource to help you and your ministry leaders grow. Every week we go the extra mile and create a free toolkit so you and your ministry team can dive deeper into the topic that is discussed.

Visit http://PastorServe.org/network to find the Weekly Toolkit, including the Ministry Leaders Growth Guide. Our team pulls key insights and quotes from every conversation with our guests. We also create engaging questions for you and your team to consider and process, providing space for you to reflect on how each episode's topic relates to your unique church context. Use these questions in your staff meetings, or other settings, to guide your conversation as you invest in the growth of your ministry leaders.

Love well, live well, & lead well

Complimentary Coaching Session for Pastors http://PastorServe.org/freesession

Follow PastorServe LinkedIn | Twitter | Instagram | Facebook

Connect with Jason Daye LinkedIn | Instagram