Gender: A Wider Lens

On this episode of Gender: A Wider Lens, Stella & Sasha sit down with Dr. Michael Biggs, Associate Professor of Sociology at the University of Oxford and a Fellow of St Cross College. Dr. Biggs has been key in uncovering vital information that led to the independent Cass Review on GIDS at Tavistock. Biggs has since turned his laser-like focus on the Dutch Protocol and in this episode, he discusses many of the issues with this flawed model. His distinguished body of work includes articles on social movements and collective protest published in all the leading disciplinary journals, including the American Journal of Sociology, American Sociological Review, British Journal of Sociology, and Social Forces. In this conversation, Dr. Biggs tells the story of his experience as a professor in a graduate sociology program when he encountered pushback from students about discussing gender identity from a sociological perspective as part of a classroom exercise. Dr. Biggs has a longstanding history of advocating on behalf of LGBT issues and found himself puzzled when students questioned his intentions. He decided to dig into the literature to try to understand where and how the topic of gender generated such surprising responses from a few of his students. After diving deep into pediatric gender medicine, he continued pursuing investigations into the unreported outcomes for patients at the largest pediatric gender clinic in the world, the Tavistock’s Gender Identity Development Services (GIDS). After a lack of response when he requested information from the GIDS directly, Dr. Biggs filed a Freedom of Information request to access data about research and treatment protocols being conducted at the clinic. Ultimately, the buried outcomes of using puberty blockers in children and adolescents were far less than positive. Biggs began to wonder: how was the puberty blocker pathway worthy of its reputation as the “gold standard” for pediatric transgender care? Where was the research to back up that claim? What motivated Michael to dedicate so much effort to learning and reporting on medical experimentation in gender-affirming care? Dr. Biggs describes feeling compelled to a sense of duty and responsibility to use his privilege to fight for academic truth. His pursuit of the truth, along with that of several other key “whistleblowers” from within Tavistock itself, ultimately yielded momentum for the systematic “Cass Review.” The review process took over two years, but the interim findings reported in late 2022 ultimately resulted in the closure of the GIDS clinic.

Links:

Puberty Blockers and Suicidality in Adolescents Suffering from Gender Dysphoria

https://rdcu.be/c4YpU

The Dutch Protocol for Juvenile Transsexuals: Origins and Evidence

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/0092623X.2022.2121238?scroll=top&needAccess=true&role=tab

Gender Trender — 4th wave now

https://4thwavenow.com/2018/11/17/wordpress-dumps-gendertrender-gallus-mag-responds/

The Wrong Body (video series - viewing requests available from the British Film Institute)

Part 1 - https://www2.bfi.org.uk/films-tv-people/4ce2b80c5d9ba  

Part 2 - https://www2.bfi.org.uk/films-tv-people/4ce2b7f121f1b

If you liked this...

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Sasha & Stella take a walk down “memory lane,” recalling the evolution of events and circumstances that lead them each towards a deeper concentration on gender identity exploration in their work. With very different stories to tell, they each share their observations of society at large and describe their individual experiences within the culture of their communities and in their workspaces. They explain what intrigued them and led them to explore deeper questions about identity development, dive into the research behind gender affirmative care and gender reassignment surgery, gender stereotypes, and basic human development in general.

They also reflect on how they began working with families and individuals impacted by gender. Their stories both lead up to how their work around gender identity development connected them and ultimately inspired the creation of this show and its rapidly-growing listener base. In its first two years, their collaboration podcast, Gender: A Wider Lens, has curated over 100 hours of in-depth interviews, personal stories, and psychological exploration. Together, Stella O’Malley and Sasha Ayad probe the gender landscape within contemporary culture, considering the implications of prioritizing personal identity over other aspects of the self.

The show has endured some pretty pivotal shifts in the cultural and political climate involving gender dysphoria and its treatments in practice on a global scale. In this episode, Sasha & Stella share their vision for the future of the show as well as the opportunities they anticipate which might broaden the scope of resources available to families and gender dysphoric individuals: resources that go beyond the affirmative approach. Together, the hosts of the popular podcast celebrate the pathways that lead them to each other, the development of the show, and the trajectory ahead for their continued exploration of gender from a wider lens.

Reviews:

https://rephonic.com/podcasts/gender-a-wider-lens-podcast

https://www.listennotes.com/podcasts/gender-a-wider-lens-podcast-stella-omalley-FeB50G1PCt8/

GDSN:

https://genderdysphoriasupportnetwork.com/

Stella’s Film: Trans Kids: It’s Time to Talk:

http://www.stellaomalley.com/trans-kids-time-to-talk

Support the Show:

https://linktr.ee/widerlenspod

For more about our sponsors, visit:

ReIME— https://rethinkime.org/

Genspect — https://genspect.org/

Extended Notes

• Sasha led her school’s first Gay-Straight Alliance (GSA) when she witnessed confusion about identity in the kids she worked with.
• Sasha was compelled to make a difference but was overwhelmed by the response she received.
• As a child, Stella was uncomfortable being a girl and knew she would be better as a boy. She was filled with shame and embarrassment.
• When Stella encountered a trans person she presumed their experience was like hers but they had transitioned.
• In Ireland, Stella has released three best-selling books, Cotton Wool Kids, Bully-proof Kids, and Fragile.
• In 2018, Stella’s husband encouraged her to...
  
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This episode is being rereleased as part of our Top 5 Episodes of 2022 Countdown! 

Wesley Yang, an essayist and public intellectual, has written extensively about 21st-century America and the liminal position of the non-black, non-white person. Coining the term "successor ideology" in 2019, Wesley has carefully analyzed this particular kind of ideology among left-wing movements that is centered around identity politics. Wesley has recently turned his attention towards gender issues and, in this episode, he delivers a blistering analysis of how gender has become a socio-political juggernaut, infiltrating society in every possible way. 

His substack features his writing, and the writing of other authors who are covering all the shocking twists and turns in the gender debates. He is also covering the release of the new WPATH Standards of Care, and the subsequent talks given about various chapters, including the now infamous eunuch chapter.  As you’ll hear Wesley has a truly incisive mind and dynamic voice, and we’re so thrilled he’s pointing his attention towards pediatric transition and the horrible treatment parents receive when they attempt to protect their children. We’ll just let him speak for himself: here is Wesley Yang. 

Links:  

Wesley Yang’s Substack: https://wesleyyang.substack.com/  

Wesley Yang’s Twitter: https://mobile.twitter.com/wesyang  

The Face of Seung-Hui Cho 

• https://www.nplusonemag.com/issue-6/essays/face-seung-hui-cho/  

Book the souls of yellow folk 

•  https://amzn.to/3BCtziO  

Eliza mongreen transexceptionalism and kids twitter  

• https://twitter.com/elizamondegreen/status/1494299809297178633?s=20&t=yF8H9TotYE_4ENzc41_JIg  

Swedish Documentary The Trans Train:  

Part 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJGAoNbHYzk&t=265s  

Part 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73-mLwWIgwU   

Part 3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3WqLT9NEnU  

Billboard Chris on Wesley’s Youtube:  

• https://youtu.be/AlacNs0b6Jw  

Teacher with gigantic prosthetic breasts is defended in Ontario: 

• 
  
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This episode is being rereleased as part of our Top 5 Episodes of 2022 Countdown! 

We have completed eleven interviews and today we analyze the second half of our Pioneers Series. Stella and I discuss the psychological and emotional impact of some recent interviews. We review the shocking discussions we’ve had with several of our guests and reflect on the flawed Dutch Protocol, which is often held up as the gold standard in childhood dysphoria medical treatment. Dr. Anne Lawrence’s reflections on Autogynephilia and the extreme measures she feels some might take are discussed in the context of the Dutch researcher’s interview. We also think back about the role Az Hakeem’s groups will play when we examine this period in hindsight, years down the line. Perhaps Susan Bradley is right about ASD being a large explanatory factor in understanding gender dysphoria more broadly. We also look at the Samoan Prime Minister’s response to the Olympic Weightlifting competition: arguably the leaders of integrating male femininity into their society, the Samonas had sharp words for the Pacific Games Council’s admission of trans MtF lifter, Laurel Hubbard, in competing against two Samoan women.

We’re wrapping up this season and we’ll be returning to our regular weekly programs with our next episode on May 20th. If you are a Patron, thank you! And don’t fret: we’ll continue recording our weekly Q&As and posting them on Patreon. Thanks for listening!

Extended Notes

• Stella and Sasha, being therapists, naturally ask questions to gain understanding of one’s thinking. They talk about the psychological and emotional toll this series had on them.
• They first analyze their conversation with Thomas Steensma and Annelou de Vries. Sasha shares what stood out to her.
• Stella also touches on her thoughts and why she sees avoidance tactics as anti-psychological.
• They explain what the gender dysphoria scale is all about.
• The entire premise of the puberty blockers experiment is based on the so-called success of the gender dysphoria scale. They both share their disagreements with these methods.
• Sasha talks about the unethical assumptions made with their studies.
• They move on to analyze their conversation with Anne Lawrence and how both their mouths dropped when she talked about castration.
• Stella asks why obsession is not being brought into this rather than just focusing on it as a gender identity topic.
• Sasha shares her thoughts about the dismissive counseling she has noticed in general.
• They both talk about their understanding of the depth of Anne’s suffering through her experience.
• Sasha evaluates Anne’s actions and responses as an obsession to a rejection of a body part, which is common in most Aspy people.
• Stella thinks there is still so much to be done on autistic diagnosis brainwork and she is looking forward to the next 15‒20 years.
• Everyone has a very high regard for the Dutch model, implying that they are being very careful but they both disagree.
• Sasha recalls how Steensma and de Vries may have perceived them as activists in their line of questioning.
• Stella and Sasha share more feedback about the Dutch study if they truly wanted it to be neutral and inclusive.
• What if the whole premise of the gender dysphoria scale is flawed? Sasha asks in retrospect.
• We shouldn’t really change something unless we have a really clear understanding of what the current state of affairs is. Stella reflects on this against puberty blockers.
• They share how off-putting it was for them to talk about the human body in a flippant manner.
• What if Jazz Jennings was put on this gender dysphoria scale? Stella and Sasha talk about their disappointment further.
• Stella mentions Az Hakim and how she admires his approach vs. the rigid coldness of the so-called...
  
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This episode is being rereleased as part of our Top 5 Episodes of 2022 Countdown! 

Jesse Singal was instrumental in shining a light on the defamation of Dr. Ken Zucker in 2016. Then, two years later, he became even more widely known in the gender world for his seminal, long-form piece in the Atlantic, “When a Child Says She’s Trans.” In this conversation, we discuss flaws in the science of gender dysphoria treatment and the misrepresentation of research findings in the media. We also look at the recent pronouncements from the Biden Administration, new state legislation, and Health and Human Services proposals. We discuss how all of this impacts our understanding of complex issues and shapes the American political landscape around gender today.

Links:

• Jesse’s Recent book: The Quick Fix: Why Fad Psychology Can’t Cure our Social Ills https://amzn.to/3yIVwpn  

• Researchers Found Puberty Blockers And Hormones Didn’t Improve Trans Kids’ Mental Health At Their Clinic. Then They Published A Study Claiming The Opposite. (Updated) https://jessesingal.substack.com/p/researchers-found-puberty-blockers?s=r 

• What the Media Gets Wrong on Gender Reassignment:   

https://spectatorworld.com/topic/media-wrong-gender-reassignment-transgender/ 

• Civil rights discrimination providers - gender affirming care:  

https://www.hhs.gov/sites/default/files/hhs-ocr-notice-and-guidance-gender-affirming-care.pdf 

• The Cut 

https://www.thecut.com/2016/02/fight-over-trans-kids-got-a-researcher-fired.html  

https://www.thecut.com/2016/01/false-charge-helped-bring-down-kenneth-zucker.html  

• When a Child Says She’s Trans:  

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2018/07/when-a-child-says-shes-trans/561749/  

Extended Notes

• Jesse explains how he became involved in publishing transgender articles.
• Journalism allows Jesse to follow a subject to the core of an issue.
• Before Jesse became known for his Atlantic piece, he was already interested in psychology fads.
• Stella enjoys self-help books.
• In his new book, The Quick Fix, Jesse argues that Americans turn to fad psychology because the real problems are too big to be solved.
• Researchers have been known to give credence to work that does not warrant it.
• Bad journalism abounds and Jesse often follows up bad stories with the facts.
• Stella states that maybe the Dutch study should be more thoroughly examined by Jesse.
• Writing and publishing articles on gender is complicated.
• Jesse says Republicans are taking the gender issue to the state level.
• Politicians have no idea of what the real science around the issue is.
• Sasha asks Jesse if he believes this to be a medical...
  
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This episode is being rereleased as part of our Top 5 Episodes of 2022 Countdown! 

If you’ve ever asked yourself: how is this happening? How are so many institutions completely captured by contemporary gender beliefs? How are medical bodies, educational institutions, and courts operating in ways that seem crazy? Well, then you really need to listen to this insightful and clarifying discussion with Leor Sapir.

Leor is a fellow at the Manhattan Institute. A driven researcher with a Ph.D. in Political Science from Boston College, Dr. Sapir previously completed a postdoctoral fellowship at the Program on Constitutional Government at Harvard University. His academic work, including his dissertation on the Obama Administration’s Title IX regulations, has investigated how America’s political culture and constitutional government shape public policy on matters of civil rights.

Similarly, at the Manhattan Institute, Dr. Sapir will apply his knowledge of political theory and American government to policy issues, homing in, particularly on issues of gender identity and transgenderism. His inaugural essay in the Winter 2022 issue of City Journal explores a series of recent court rulings surrounding transgenderism, demonstrating how bad ideas translate from fringe academic theory into law and policy. Previous web pieces for City Journal have explored evolving athletic guidelines and media coverage surrounding transgender issues. He discussed these pieces in a recent episode of City Journal’s 10 Blocks podcast.

Leor asserts the collapse of liberal optimism has brought about mindless apathy and subsequently, a kind of soft despotism. Leor makes the razor-sharp observation that being non-judgemental is our new civic religion. We talk about institutional capture, whether courts are the best place to decipher complex social issues, and what the impending malpractice lawsuits will mean for gender medicine. We also discuss the difference between the U.S. system and systems in progressive European countries, where a reversal of affirmation medicine seems to be taking place. We get into so much here: political philosophy, the virtue of tolerance vs. apathy, and what’s at stake when members of a society begin to lose their sense of engagement and responsibility to one another and to truth itself.

Links & Resources:

• Leor Sapir’s writings: https://www.manhattan-institute.org/expert/leor-sapir
• Winter 2022 issue of City Journal:
• https://www.city-journal.org/magazine?issue=345
• Leor Sapir’s essay on athletic guidelines:
• https://www.city-journal.org/confused-and-flawed-debate-over-transgender-inclusion-in-womens-sports
• Leor Sapir’s essay on media coverage:
• https://www.city-journal.org/misguided-affirmations
• City...
  
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This episode is being rereleased as part of our Top 5 Episodes of 2022 Countdown! 

Bio: Steensma 

Thomas D. Steensma, Ph.D., is a health psychologist, principal investigator and part of the outpatient management team at the Center of Expertise on Gender Dysphoria at Amsterdam UMC, The Netherlands. 

Trained as a child and adolescent psychologist, his clinical work is focused on the counseling and treatment of people of all ages with gender incongruence and Differences in Sex Development (DSD). 

As principal investigator, his research lines are focused on psychosexual development, gender identity development and treatment evaluation of youth with gender incongruence. Over the years, he has published over 50 peer reviewed articles in international journals and several book chapters in close collaboration with prominent scientists in the field of gender and sexology. He has co-supervised several Ph.D. and master students. 

His recent scientific work is focused on understanding the developments in our field focusing on the change in observed sex ratios and the influence of media attention on gender referrals and understanding the processes and factors involved in non-binary gender identity formation. 

He is currently part of the working group for the text revision of the DSM-5 chapter on Gender Dysphoria. In the development of the 8th version of the Standards of Care of the World Professional Association of Transgender Health (WPATH), he is part of two working groups: Assessment and Therapeutic Approaches of Non-Binary People and Assessment, Support and Therapeutic Approaches of Children. 

Bio: de Vries 

Annelou de Vries is a child and adolescent psychiatrist and full staff member in the dept of child and adolescent psychiatry working at the Amsterdam UMC. 

Annelou de Vries is leading the Child Psychiatry Department of the Center of Expertise on Gender Dysphoria of the Amsterdam UMC. She is president elect of the European Professional Association of Transgender Health (EPATH) . She is co-chair of the adolescent chapter of the Standards of Care revision of the World Professional Association of Transgender Health (WPATH).  

At present, her lines of research focus on 1) the co-occurrence of autism and gender dysphoria, 2) capacity for informed consent of transgender adolescents, 3) long term follow up of transgender adolescence into middle adulthood, 4) sexual development of transgender adolescents,  5) shared decision making in transgender care, and 6) pathways in gender identity exploration and affirmation.  

The reason this interview is so important is bc the concept of puberty blockers originated with these two researchers (along w/ cohen kettenis.) We talk about patient zero and the 22 year follow up w/ this person. We get into the nitty gritty details about the 2 studies on which all puberty blocker treatment is based: we ask why they selected certain methods, talked about eligibility criteria, and the 15 participants who didn’t make it into the final study. We even touch on Jazz Jennings, social media, ROGD and detransition. This conversation felt, to us at least, like we barely scratched the surface: we were frankly left with more questions than answers, which we are so eager to talk about in our post series analysis. You’ll probably notice the vast differences between the perspectives of these researchers and of myself and Stella, but...

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In this last episode before our break, we begin with some important and exciting announcements about what listeners can expect in 2023 from Gender: A Wider Lens. We then launch into one of our most important interviews yet: “Teiresias” was a patient at the notorious Dutch clinic. Unlike the common misconception that the Dutch used an air-tight method for correctly identifying kids who would benefit long-term from transition, Teiresias’s detransition reveals the truth about childhood gender medicine, even when it’s being practiced by the “gold standard.”

He speaks out about his medical transition and subsequent detransition. Teiresias was a feminine boy who, with puberty, became increasingly distressed by his same-sex attraction. One day Teiresias watched a TV program where a trans man described the happiness that came about as a result of medical transition. A seed was sown, and Teiresias turned to the internet where he was encouraged by older trans women to transition as soon as possible.

Teiresias describes the way the Dutch clinic ignored his childhood trauma, the difficulties with his father, his self-loathing, and his internalized homophobia and instead, led him on to a medicalized pathway with the gender affirmative approach. An over-eager surgeon encouraged Teiresias to undergo many procedures until one day he realized he was chasing a false dream. He then decided to get off the fast track and began his detransition.

Links:

• Sasha’s Parent Coaching Membership Site: 

https://www.subscribestar.com/sashalpc

• Stella’s Substack: 

https://stellaomalley.substack.com/

• https://gender-a-wider-lens.captivate.fm/episode/66-pioneers-series-where-it-all-started-the-dutch-researchers-steensma-de-vries

• https://gender-a-wider-lens.captivate.fm/episode/69-pioneers-series-post-series-analysis-break

Extended Notes

• Stella shares her experience of speaking with detransitioners from the Dutch clinic.
• Teiresias felt that he had a double side, telling friends he wanted to be a girl.
• His parents switched schools because of the bullying in the previous one.
• At ten, Teiresias felt neutral about being attracted to other boys and said he was gay.
• He thought puberty would make him attracted to women.
• He found himself mimicking straight boys and talking about liking girls while still being attracted to boys.
• At 12 or 13, he used derogatory terms to describe trans people just like everyone else.
• The family went through a difficult divorce while he was entering puberty. It caused him to isolate himself.
• In 2015, a talk show introduced him to a teenage trans man who described how happy he was after transitioning.
• Based on information he found on the internet, he self-diagnosed as bipolar and autistic until finding a trans description he aligned with.
• Teiresias started fixating on certain parts of his body but it never solved a problem.
• After entering the Dutch clinic, he had a specific picture in his mind of the woman he wanted to become.
• During his intake to the clinic in 2015, his mother insisted he was still troubled by his relationship with his father.
• There was a real-life phase at the clinic where Teiresias was...
  
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StoicMom is a certified life coach and former classroom teacher who has some unique ideas about parenting and education. Like other moms whose lives have been altered when their teens adopted a trans identity, StoicMom was initially determined to rescue her daughter from this dangerous ideology. She quickly recognized what she was up against and sunk into desperate fear and rage. StoicMom did “all the things” to get her daughter to desist — she even moved her family to a small town in a red state — but this backfired, as gender identity theory was everywhere. Repeated failures at getting her daughter to desist left her feeling impotent and hopeless.

Eventually, StoicMom had to accept that her approach was also taking a toll on her health and relationships. To restore sanity and stability to her home, she’d need to find a better way. So, she turned to her life-coaching toolbox and decided to reframe what was happening to her daughter and to herself. Knowing she couldn’t really control her daughter’s experience, StoicMom decided she would take charge of her own.

In addition to immersing herself in studying attachment theory, conflict resolution, and communication skills, StoicMom focused on the gratitude she felt for her family members’ healthy qualities. She grounded herself in her values and worked to let go of the focus on her daughter’s outcomes.

Earlier this year (2022), StoicMom launched a substack where she wrote about her approach and hoped other parents would find a bit of solace from the outrage culture. StoicMom also relaunched her coaching practice and now works 1:1 with parents who are interested in changing their inner worlds as a way to heal and grow through this destabilizing experience. Her 18-year-old daughter still identifies as transgender, but, as you’ll hear, StoicMom now recognizes her child is on her own individuation process, and she’s actually doing great. StoicMom now expresses gratitude for this journey with her daughter and is using the process as inspiration to become a better human.

Quotes & Link:

• “It is no measure of health to be well-adjusted to a profoundly sick society.” 

― J. Krishnamurti

• “Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.” ― Albert Einstein

• StoicMom Substack: 

https://stoicmom.substack.com/

Extended Notes

• StoicMom makes suggestions to parents but doesn’t consider herself a parent coach.
• Has this generation taken away a child’s ability to be adaptable and survive?
• StoicMom and her daughter bonded over the incongruencies in the education system.
• The relationship between StoicMom and her daughter started to crack when they disagreed on the daughter’s desire to become diagnosed and medicated.
• A friend informed StoicMom that her daughter preferred a different name and identity.
• StoicMom and her husband both worked in Wilderness therapy prior to their daughter’s intervention.
• After the Wilderness program, when StoicMom asked her daughter about her identity her daughter told her it didn’t exist.
• StoicMom realized her daughter was binding her breasts.
• When StoicMom and her daughter finally conversed about her being trans-identified.
• In the Pivotal Moments piece on her substack, StoicMom reframes her experiences into gratitude.
• StoicMom’s daughter never went back to the traditional education environment.
• StoicMom adopted the practice of stoicism to focus on what she had control over.
• StoicMom is testing the waters of calling herself an Individuation coach.
• StoicMom strives to be a model for her...
  
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