Hunting wildlife has been practiced by Indigenous tribes for hundreds of years in this region and many of those traditions are still practiced today. Although many may see hunting as a sport, it is also regarded as spiritually and culturally significant for tribes and pueblos such as Zuni. In this episode, Lakin Epaloose discusses his hunting experience throughout the years and the traditional-ecological knowledge he’s picked up along the way. Take a listen to this episode and we hope you all enjoy!

---

TRANSCRIPT:

---

[Lakin Epaloose]

I would say that; understand that a lot of the traditional practices that have taken place in this entire landscape, which we call home, those practices are still passed down today. So we still continue to hold the cultural values that have kept our families together and families that support one another. So if you guys have family, then try to connect with them in different ways.

Connect with the people you have close with you.

[Meranden]

Welcome back to Grand Canyon Speaks. I'm Meranden

[Ranger Dan]

And this is Ranger Dan.

[Meranden]

Throughout season three, we've been highlighting sports and athletes from the 11 tribes that call the Grand Canyon home. However, this one is a bit different.

[Ranger Dan]

Yeah, this time I spoke with Lakin, who is an intern here at the Park, and we covered topics revolving around hunting as a sport, but more importantly, hunting as a tradition.

[Meranden]

Hunting has both evolved and sustained its cultural significance for many of our tribes throughout the region, and Lakin shares his perspective as a Zuni hunter.

[Ranger Dan]

We hope you enjoy this episode and stay tuned for more of season three.

[Lakin Epaloose]

Good evening, everyone.

My name is Lakin Epaloose. Ho’ Lakin Epaloose le'shinna. Ho’ Dowa:kwe deyan Suski:kwe a:wan cha’le. So Dowa:kwe is my clan, my first clan, and Suski:kwe is my second clan.

Dowa:kwe is Corn clan and Suski:kwe is Coyote clan. I'm from the Zuni Pueblo, and that is located four hours east on the road, or 252 miles going on this Highway 89 to I-40, Gallup you head south from Gallup you'll get there yeah I'm from Zuni.

Our Pueblo is pretty secluded and our reservation is located in this valley that sits between a mesa the mountains out east called Zuni mountains and some desert hills out to the west.

I've been an intern here for about it's about a year now but my previous term was served under Arizona Conservation Corps and I'm an intern under ALCC which is this right here Ancestral Lands Conservation Corps. Because of the work we did we were able to get extended for another year so we'll be here until January

[Ranger Dan]

So I want to also emphasize the work that Lakin is talking about is normally he's on this side of the microphone where I am, actually doing the interviews with other people here so Lakin and Meranden are in charge of the Grand Canyon Speaks podcast.

They've selected people that we do interview throughout the year here and our emphasis this year is actually focusing on sports and why they're so important to Indigenous communities that call the canyon home and hunting can kind of fit into these categories to a certain extent for outdoor recreation.

But yeah this is I think this is the first time you've been on the interviewee side of a program here but yeah I'm super excited because I've gotten to know Lakin for over a year now since he started in last August.

Yeah we've had a lot of conversations about a lot of different subjects and I think we've been able to identify that hunting is a really important topic especially for you because you go out a lot when you're back home and it's coming to the close of antelope season or pronghorn season too which I know you're hoping to bag one too.

So I want to kind of get started with your history with hunting and kind of when did you when were you first exposed to hunting actually out at Zuni?

[Lakin Epaloose]

So I would say I started hunting around like age like five or six.

I remember I would go like out with my dad and I remember the first time he let me shoot a gun which was a 22 rifle and yeah ever since like I've been hunting at that age I feel like I've picked up a lot of knowledge and skill because of my dad.

Because he would be the main one I would go hunting with and then later on I would go hunting with my friends and even I would have the opportunity to teach my friends how to hunt and hunt specific things like birds or big game or small game even.

[Ranger Dan]

Yeah so is this like would you say it's kind of a generational thing where like you're learning from your dad, did he learn from his dad on how to go hunting and learn the landscape as well?

[Lakin Epaloose]

Yeah he would tell me that he used to go hunting with his dad, specifically deer hunting and so that was one big game that they focused on and then later on he would learn how to hunt turkey.

And so after that he taught me how to hunt turkeys which is like I would say it's similar to hunting elk because when you're like hunting turkeys, especially in the spring, you're locating where they're roosting and with elk too, you're locating where they're bugling and where their herds are moving through.

So that's pretty much the same approach you take.

[Ranger Dan]

Okay.

How many different seasons do you have to go hunting? Because I know you're into bow hunting but also rifle as well but that takes you into and just long gun I should say and it takes you into a bunch of different animals that you do hunt throughout the year.

So how many times how many different animals do you think you go after a year.

[Lakin Epaloose]

You can go all year round but there's specific times during the year where hunting isn't allowed like during our fasting which occurs in the winter and during the summer. One of the purposes for fasting is to preserve our resources and to give the Earth a time to rest and the wildlife time to rest as well.

There's like specific rules when it comes to hunting birds in the summer.

So just to let y'all know and to let everyone know listening; Zuni tribal members are allowed to have feathers and hunt specific birds but during the summertime there are specific birds that come into this region, and they're known as migratory birds.

In Zuni they're also known as summer birds and the feathers and the birds themselves just represent the monsoon rains that start to come through the region during this time of year specifically like July through late August and during this time year those same birds come up from Central America and Mexico.

And it's understood that they travel with the rain so that's why they're important culturally because we rely on the rain for our dry land agricultural practices.

So we associate that with the wildlife that inhabit this region during this time year.

[Ranger Dan]

And so are you also saying that like Zuni has the ability to take different birds that other people don't have the ability to?

[Lakin Epaloose]

Yeah, like I said majority of the birds that are used for cultural purposes are able to be harvested by tribal members.

There are other birds that you can't kill legally like eagles. You keep them as pets and that's the traditional way of taking their feathers. A long time ago they would hike up to cliff sides or into the mountains to look for the eagle nests and they'll find the egg and they'll take that back home and they'll take care of the eagle until it reaches its old age.

So the eagle becomes their pet. Same thing with the parrots and macaws. Before we reached Zuni during our migration, we used to inhabit different regions or locations in the southwest that are regarded as ancestral sites and in these ancestral sites we were connected with other Puebloan civilizations and cultures that ended up moving down into Mexico.

So we sustained those connections and one of those examples is we would trade feathers and the birds themselves the macaws and so our people took care of macaws and still do to this day.

And so if you're ever in Zuni, you might meet a family who has a macaw as their pet or an eagle.

So that's pretty cool to know but to go back to your question how many seasons there are, there's winter; so usually during the wintertime you'll find a lot of the birds like Clark's nutcrackers which are located in the Park at Grandview.

They're pretty cool when you get up to them they're these in Zuni they're called lohaya bo’ya because their head is gray and their feathers on their wings are black and they have a little white patch on their shoulder.

So there's that and there's other birds like flickers, woodpeckers, and bluebirds there's mountain bluebirds and the western bluebirds which kind of have a different color so I'll use you two as an example.

The feathers on the mountain bluebird are like that color. Western [bluebird] is more like that blue so that's pretty cool to know and I'm glad you guys wore those shirts.

[Ranger Dan]

Yeah I think they planned it.

[Lakin Epaloose]

Yeah. It was a planned thing.

Springtime is usually turkey hunting season, so turkeys will breed in the springtime and they will usually be like toms which are the mature turkeys or the gobblers.

They'll be with their hens and so you can use different types of turkey calls to lure the toms in and whenever you go turkey hunting you can also go bird hunting.

Summertime is like I mentioned a time to hunt the migratory birds like the Orioles or in Zuni they're called Ono’łikya and the different types of buntings like those lazuli buntings, indigo buntings, the grosbeaks and they're all very colorful birds the tanagers too western and summer.

Those are yellow red and the summer tanagers are all red. So yeah there's a bunch of different cool birds and each of those birds have unique Zuni names and also like one vision I have is to create a book that has all these names of the birds identified in Zuni and in English and also the ornithological terminology for each of the species.

So I feel like that information is important because it not only is significant in identifying birds but also the words themselves carry knowledge. For example there's this one bird that it's kind of leaving now because it's getting to the end of the summer but you might hear it every now and then it's called a violet-green swallow and on their back they're a very vibrant green and on their lower part of their back there it's a very vibrant purple

And in Zuni they're called Awisho: Seto which means “algae back” and the reason why algae is important is because it resembles places where bodies of water are located for example springs and ponds and those springs and ponds are usually used as places of offering or collecting water for cultural purposes.

So it's like you can connect the identification of a bird with specific locations that contain water or can contain other elements of nature that are culturally important.

[Ranger Dan]

And these birds also hang around these areas too they're skimming the water catching the insects that are off of them and so it's all connected into one location with this identification of the bird itself.

So yeah you're talking about knowledge. From one bird we just got that much knowledge.

[Lakin Epaloose]

Yes exactly yeah and I'll go to the next season. That's fall season.

That can kind of be my favorite because that's when big game hunting usually opens. So like Dan mentioned earlier, I have a antelope archery tag to fill.

And for those who know about hunting and archery hunting antelope or pronghorn antelope is one of the hardest animals to hunt because not only do they have a good sense of smell like elk and deer but they're the fastest land mammal in North America and they have the eyesight almost as good as a hawk.

So they can see you I believe up to five miles away.

So usually with deer you do this technique called spot and stalk. You'll find a place where they're going to bed or rest in the shade and then you'll kind of creep around to make your way closer to it based on the wind direction.

So you go against the wind so that it won't catch your scent but the thing with pronghorn is they're usually located in vast open areas.

The wind can be tricky in those open areas and they have good eyesight and they bed down kind of like how cats do. If you guys know how cats loaf, that's how pronghorn kind of bed down and also they'll spot you if you walk standing straight up they'll spot you easily so you're out of luck if you mess up.

[Ranger Dan]

Yeah

[Lakin Epaloose]

And they'll take off

[Ranger Dan]

Yeah it's a pretty quick animal.

[Lakin Epaloose]

Yeah so usually when you see people hunting them with bows and with a bow you can get up to I would say anywhere between 30 and 60 yards is a good shot.

So that's about from here to Eliana back there that's about 30 yards or even like 25.

60 yards is about that bush halfway down that way so you kind of have that room to work with.

But yeah I do like hunting pronghorn it's a very challenging hunt but when you fulfill it that satisfaction is there. Deer hunting is also my favorite because they're kind of in between elk and antelope they're pretty tough to hunt but when you do get it, it’s a nice feeling.

And elk is also a fall animal that is hunted. It's funny because they're kind of stupid like I mean they're big and they'll come into pretty much anything especially if they're in the rut.

Like I can do an elk call right now I'll do one. That's how a cow elk sounds.

So like if you do that in the morning they'll bugle easily and that's during the fall time during their rut.

[Ranger Dan]

We got tp do that outside the apartment I want to hear this in the morning.

[Lakin Epaloose]

Yeah yeah that's one of my favorite animals to hunt because when they are coming in you can hear them crashing through the trees and it gets your adrenaline going especially in the morning after you wake up.

So that's one cool thing to wake up to is the crashing and the bugling and they're very loud especially if you're in their area where there's like five bulls fighting that's one cool experience.

[Ranger Dan]

Yeah yeah that's cool.

[Lakin Epaloose]

But if you do get one I'll say like when you're field dressing an elk it's it smells.

[Ranger Dan]

Yeah.

[Lakin Epaloose]

Yeah like it just smells like elk pee.

[Ranger Dan]

That's nice. Yeah you got to be ready for that to get dirty when you're hunting especially dressing it out.

Yeah you've touched upon a couple different topics along the way describing the seasons and what's available for hunting and one of the things that I would like to kind of take it back to you is I mean you're talking about information that's one of it's a huge thing within Zuni culture where you can pick one thing and there's so much to talk about it because that one object carries so much information.

But if we start thinking about it, this is all passed down knowledge.

This is traditional knowledge so what is the the history of Zuni and hunting altogether and like how is it important within the culture?

[Lakin Epaloose]

Yeah so hunting from the Zuni perspective isn't just harvesting game for the meat and for the parts but it also has a spiritual aspect.

So one example is when you're hunting you're not just hunting like I said for the meat you're also... there's like this saying that it's like if you're successful in your hunt you're not only blessed for bird hunting blessed for deer hunting you're not only blessed but it's also a way of bringing someone who passed away back home.

So someone in your family or in the like your ancestor they want to come home so that's why you get lucky with hunting is because there's some someone in your family that passed away or someone that is an ancestor that wants to come home and visit home.

So that's one of the spiritual connections is the spirits live through the animals so when we bring it back home we treat it as someone who's visiting our home that passed away.

[Ranger Dan]

Okay.

[Lakin Epaloose]

So that's one traditional aspect of hunting.

Also going way back before there were rifles and compound bows. Of course we will use traditional bows made out of cedar if not we would use trapping techniques but not necessarily to kill the animal but to harvest the parts for example the bird feathers. There's this technique or method of trapping where you will tie this like a strand either a hair strand or a rope and you would put bait in the middle and then you would let the bird land and once the bird lands you would pull that string and grab its leg or catch its legs.

Then you'll hold it with your hand and then pluck a couple of the feathers and you just want it to pluck enough to where the bird can continue to fly so that you have the feathers you need but the bird can still live.

[Ranger Dan]

It's taking what's necessary.

[Lakin Epaloose]

Yeah exactly.

[Ranger Dan]

Not being greedy in a way.

[Lakin Epaloose]

Yeah and so that's another philosophy that is taught and practiced for hunting in Zuni; is that you take what you need not more than you need because if you do end up taking more than you need or more than what's necessary you can end up creating bad luck for your own life or for someone you love.

So things can happen that are unwanted or drastic.

[Ranger Dan]

Yeah, it's this cascading effect that can affect the people, yeah.

[Lakin Epaloose]

Yeah. So going to the historical aspect, like I said in our culture we teach that we migrated from Ribbon Falls, Grand Canyon to Zuni, New Mexico but along the way we stopped at several ancestral sites and one example is along the Colorado River if you follow it all the way up to Utah you'll get to the Moab area right south of Arches National Park.

So I went to Arches for ethnographic overview and one of the places we stopped at Arches I believe was called Courthouse Wash and so we hiked up into that little valley and we got to this cliff side and on the cliff side there was petroglyphs of people hunting and petroglyphs of different animals.

So once we saw that and we realized that there's all these different tracks in the valley for example bobcat which in Zuni is called Debi; deer tracks, mule deer tracks which is Na’le; some elk tracks and mountain lion tracks and bear tracks all in the area and even turkey tracks in that desert.

So there's Rio Grande turkeys in that desert and if you can imagine that desert it's iron rich dirt with some cottonwood trees so it's just red all around and it's kind of rare that you'll see turkeys but the turkeys in this area are known as Merriam's turkeys.

So there's different types of turkeys in this area but yeah so that's one fact that is connected to our historical connection with hunting.

[Ranger Dan]

And throughout time I mean you're not taking more than you need and when a need is there, it could also it could be for like sustenance for food to feed people but also there's that ceremonial side as well for the traditions that are still practiced to this very day.

And so I know like just from some of your paintings that I've seen like you've talked about like looking at what is represented in them on the figures and talking about like this is like a like a mallard feather here but so there's more than just a sustenance use for animals and they're incorporated into Zuni traditions right?

[Lakin Epaloose]

Yes, so some symbolic aspects of hunting and animals and birds in general is the color and shape.

So one example is like you mentioned the mallard feathers. So on the bird there's two types of feathers on the wing: there's secondary and primary. So if you can imagine your arm like that the feathers that are on this tip right here they're known as primaries and they're the sharper feathers.

In Zuni they're called lats’umme:we; ts’umme means strong and lawe is feathers. So those are used for a specific purpose and secondary feathers are right under here if you can imagine under your arm or this undermost part of the bird wing those are more wide and so like I mentioned with the duck feather the duck feathers the secondary feathers of the duck especially the mallard they're purple.

So in Zuni they're called lak’ek’wi:we.

One of the meanings behind that color in that feather is when you look at the clouds these ones right here the cumulus clouds on the bottommost part they're very dark and dark blue and even sometimes dark purple so that's what the color of that feather it's connected to and what it means so yeah that's one example.

[Ranger Dan]

Yeah I mean so it's really tied into the culture itself. Yeah there's a reason that this bird is harvested for the feathers there's a purpose for it that's a sacred use and it's an important use as well in traditions that exist in today.

And another aspect of like and I'm kind of my head's going all over the place I got so many things I can talk to you about we've only limited amount of time and like you're talking about like bringing a family member home and like it's to spend time with that person, that group of people once again.

But that's also feeding a family as well so what like beyond hunting we've got some ceremonial type uses as well but like how important is it that these hunted game build community around it, around that game itself?

[Lakin Epaloose]

Yeah, from a cultural perspective there's religious fraternities or groups in the Zuni community that take care of a lot of the hunting obligations so that's one way it builds community and keeps the culture together and the values that formulate the culture and are responsible for the way the elders are connected to the youth.

From a personal or a familial perspective, I would say it has helped me bond with family members like my dad a lot more because that's one of the activities that me and him would do that I look back on the most.

Like we'll be hunting and he'll teach me a lot and we'll not only talk about hunting but also other things like I'll learn a lot about life when I'm out there with him.

I would also connect with my friends in different ways like I feel like the moments where I’ve laughed the most is out in the forest especially when they're doing stupid stuff.

Like one example is we're turkey hunting a couple years ago and we're sitting under a tree and there's a turkey gobbling and that was pretty hard that year because there's a lot of hunters around and the turkey was coming closer and then his legs started falling asleep and then he couldn't really move and he was complaining and it was coming closer.

I told him to be quiet and then we heard rustling going on to the left of us behind this line of trees.

We didn't know what it was later on we found out there was a black bear kind of hanging out in the area.

So there's a lot of different things going on at once when we were sitting there and then my other friend in the back he ended up farting really loud.

So that scared the turkey away, so yeah that's one of the funnier moments that I can look back on.

But yeah I got to teach my friends how to hunt specific cleans but also learn with them.

Like I had a friend his name was Ian and he passed away this year. I knew him for 12 years and one cool thing that I can remember about him is that we learned a bunch of different waterfowl together. So like it was funny this one time we were duck hunting and we shot this duck we thought it was a duck it was a grebe and if you don't know anything about grebes their feet look funny. So yeah.

[Ranger Dan]

Do they have like the big blue feet?

[Lakin Epaloose]

They do, some of them.

[Ranger Dan]

Okay.

[Lakin Epaloose]

[American] Coots can.

[Ranger Dan]

Oh that's the coots yeah, that's the coots

[Lakin Epaloose]

But they almost look like coots. So like things like that it's like I look back on and I have a lot of value for those moments

[Ranger Dan]

For sure yeah I know. I mean you're learning about people and you're learning about yourself and you're bonding in these moments and that's what helped build helps build the community at Zuni and like one of the things we always talk about when Zuni tribal members come out here is the super strong aspect of community within Zuni and it's really seen and it's kind of like a glow that everyone has around them when they come out and it's really apparent and once you start talking to everybody and it's just there.

I would say another aspect of it and this is kind of a tangent is like we know people by their official government names whereas everyone back home knows each other by nicknames and so we got to really piece together with everybody who comes out here.

Like oh you're talking about so-and-so and so-and-so and like “that's their real name?” “Yes.”

So the community is so strong everybody just knows one another which is a lot of fun to always hear and and talk about with everyone who comes out.

With the fun question we always have for the podcast, we're kind of getting into food a little bit here.

Normally we talk about like what's a favorite traditional food that would be something you would want right now but this is a little bit different I mean there's traditional foods associated with hunting but what would you go for in the game world what would you go for right now Lakin?

What would you want just a big turkey leg, like a renaissance fair type turkey leg?

[Lakin Epaloose]

Back strap on deer and antelope is good but a lot of people also prefer elk meat. With deer ribs you can't really get any meat off of them because they don't have a lot of meat on the ribs but back strap is good if you bake it or even grill it.

A traditional method of preparing deer meat or antelope meat, [or] elk meat is using a type of mint it's called frosted mint it grows near Zuni.

There's this mesa in Zuni called Dowa Yalanne which in Zuni means “Ancient mountain” and it might be confused with “Corn mountain.”

The reason why is because there's two types of Zuni language. There's kind of like it's not really new Zuni but there's definitely an older Zuni that is related to the language that was practiced when our ancestors were moving throughout this region.

So anyway that's what that word Dowa Yalanne comes from is ancient mountain and on the east side of that when the sun would come up, the frosted mint would grow along the hillsides and that grows out in Arches National Park too.

So you can pick that mint and in Zuni it's called dowa mats’a I don't know if I mentioned that I might have.

And you can cook your meat with that and it adds a really nice flavor to it. Yeah so like I said back strap with salt, pepper, paprika, cayenne pepper, garlic powder and green chili.

[Ranger Dan]

And green chilies? Yeah it's hatch green chili season right now everybody so take notes on this recipe that was just said here and I think you might want to have a good good meal.

Would be nice, yeah.

As a non hunter, but a person who's wanted to go hunting, oh man I think I would have to go for I don't know like I think elk is at the top and also like venison too.

When I lived in Alaska, everybody up there just hunted all the time. So Alaskan barbecues were amazing because you could have surf and turf but like you had everything off the hoof from moose to venison to mountain goat down to octopus, crab, shrimp everything.

Oh yeah those Alaskan barbecues, that's kind of what I'm remembering right now like mountain goat burgers that type of stuff; moose meatballs yeah there's good stuff, it’s good.

So it's a little different a little different but yeah I could definitely go for one of our pesky Elks around here. I think they'd be really tasty right now, yeah.

And to kind of round off some things here, there's a lot of satisfaction that I'm hearing within your voice when you're talking about hunting you're talking about the connections to your community.

What's kind of like the greatest sense of satisfaction that you get from this practice? Is it a physical, is it emotional, a cultural, a spiritual like if you feel like sharing for this question, what kind of satisfaction do you feel with this?

[Lakin Epaloose]

There's I guess three parts or three different kinds of satisfaction that I get from it. One is connecting with the people you are with when you're hunting and even if you're hunting by yourself you get to think a lot about like your own life and in a positive setting where there's a lot of light you're not stuck inside of a building or room.

You get to kind of explore different regions that you've never explored or even if you have, you get to revisit those and revisit old memories and thoughts and continue to ponder on those thoughts you didn't get to finish.

Yeah second aspect is you have time to connect with nature in different ways like identifying plants and learning different things about plants as well as different ways to hunt. Let's say a bird or a specific animal especially if you have a shortcoming you learn from that so you get to grow and learn in that wa.

Third one is when it comes down to actually taking the shot there's a lot of adrenaline going through your body and I think that's true with bow hunting because with rifle hunting you can just aim the gun and let it do its thing but with the bow you kind of have to like gauge the distance a little bit more precisely based on the wind too

And also hold your bow still, especially if the poundage is higher because you'll have to hold that heavy poundage for a lot longer time especially if the animal’s moving from one; let's say there's a bush in front of it moves and you have to wait for it to stand broadside.

Which broadside means basically like sideways and the reason why you want to shoot it from the angle is because you want to have an ethical kill and not a kill that makes the suffering longer.

So when it comes down to that moment and making sure all those different aspects of an ethical kill are complete, there's a lot of things that go into building up adrenaline and even anxiety if you're not prepared mentally but when you actually take the shot it's pretty cool it's like relieving.

I remember the my first archery kill was an elk. It was my third shot the first one was a 30-yard shot like from here to Eliana's bottle, maybe Eliana.

It was from here to Eliana and I messed up and I got in trouble because when I was practicing I was hitting the bullseye time and time again but when I shot it hit lower left and I was kind of like confused.

Second time was an 8 by 7 elk and that was one of the biggest I've seen and I kind of like stepped on something and it ran away or yeah I messed up.

Third chance was the hardest shot I've taken it was a 70 yard shot and I couldn't use the pins because the pins on the sight are 30, 40, 50 yards so I had to raise it above those pins to kind of gauge where it was going to land and so I took the 70 yard shot which is about from here to about that cedar, past that cedar tree sticking up from there.

[Ranger Dan]

Yeah we're getting closer to the trading post now yeah with distance.

[Lakin Epaloose]

Yeah it was across a big pond it was going down to drink water in the evening. It was my last day and I was about 15 or 16 years old and I shot.

I wasn't sure if I got it but we tracked it down and I ended up getting a double lung shot which is a full pass through which is what you want.

And so that was the best shot I've taken which was the hardest shot I've taken too.

[Ranger Dan]

It's a pretty good shot, yeah. Okay I like it.

If you could leave our guests here tonight with one last thing about kind of what we talked about tonight what would you like to leave with them?

[Lakin Epaloose]

I would say that understand that a lot of the traditional practices that have taken place in this entire landscape which we call home, those practices are still passed down today.

So we still continue to hold the cultural values that have kept our families together and families that support one another so if you guys have family then try to connect with them in different ways whether it's hiking or exploring new places or just having conversations about like what you're eating or like just different aspects of life.

I feel like that's one thing I want to leave with is connect with the people you have close with you.

[Ranger Dan]

Yeah, for sure. Yeah I like it. Thank you Lakin.

This has been fun, this has been a good time especially having you on the other side of the microphone now.

[Lakin Epaloose]

Thank you guys for coming.

[Ranger Dan]

Yeah thank you everybody we're getting here to sunset so stay safe and enjoy.

[Ranger Jonah]

Grand Canyon Speaks is a program hosted by Grand Canyon National Park and the Grand Canyon Conservancy. A special thanks to Aaron White for the theme music. This recording reflects the personal lived experiences of tribal members and do not encompass the views of their tribal nation or that of the National Park.

To learn more about Grand Canyon First Voices visit www.nps.gov/GRCA. Here at Grand Canyon National Park we are on the ancestral homelands of the 11 associated tribes of the Grand Canyon.

These being the Havasupai tribe, the Hualapai tribe, the Navajo Nation, the Hopi tribe, the Pueblo of Zuni, the Yavapai Apache Nation, the Kaibab Band of Paiute Indians, the Las Vegas Paiute tribe, the Moapa Band of Paiutes, the Paiute Indian tribe of Utah, and the San Juan Southern Paiute tribe.

A small number of our Indigenous athletes are fortunate enough to showcase their talents at a collegiate level, and Malia Ukestine is one of those athletes! After overcoming an ACL injury in high school, she received a scholarship to play at Scottsdale Community College and shares this experience in this Speaks episode. Malia also describes details regarding traditional Zuni connections to Grand Canyon and how it’s carried on by today’s generation. Tune in to season 3 and enjoy this episode!

---

TRANSCRIPT:

---

[Malia Ukestine]

I feel like a lot of Native American people are overlooked just because of how small our community is, especially Zuni. So, me being in that positive light, it showed that we are resilient and that we are deserving of a chance to show our talents and abilities.

[Lakin]

Welcome back to Grand Canyon Speaks. This is Lakin.

[Meranden]

And this is Meranden.

[Lakin]

In this episode, I interviewed former Scottsdale Community College basketball athlete Malia Ukestine.

[Meranden]

Malia, who is from Zuni, described the journey of overcoming a torn ACL in high school to winning playoff games with her college team.

[Lakin]

She also discussed the traditional connections that the Zuni people have with Grand Canyon, namely Ribbon Falls and Whitmore Wash.

[Meranden]

Take a listen and enjoy.

[Malia Ukestine]

Keshi. Ho’ Malia Ukestine le’shinna. Hom annodi: Dowa:kwe deyan Donashi:kwe a:wan cha’le.

Hello, everyone. My name is Malia Ukestine, and my clans are Corn and child of a Badger. I am currently 22 years old, and I graduated with my Associates at Scottsdale Community College with my general studies.

And I am currently just working in the business industry. But yeah, I played basketball for two years at Scottsdale Community on a basketball scholarship.

[Lakin]

Nice. Is this your first time to the canyon?

[Malia Ukestine]

Well, I've been here when I was younger, but I don't really remember much. But yeah, it was very surreal. Like, I wasn't expecting it to be like this beautiful.

And overlooking, you can see all the rivers and stuff, which I wasn't expecting. So that was pretty cool.

[Lakin]

Yeah, right now the river is running red because of the sediments being washed into the Colorado. So yeah, I'm glad that you find this place special. But we also want to know more about what does the canyon mean to you? And also, what does it mean to Zuni?

[Malia Ukestine]

Yeah, so the canyon is important to me and my people because it's where we originated from. There are petroglyphs, I believe, in the canyon where it tells how we came about and like the stories and our Zuni prayer as well.

Some of the petroglyphs show how we came from the Zuni emergence, which I believe was from the Ribbon Falls. And that would be our fourth world under the Grand Canyon. So, it shows like how we came from underneath with our toes and tails and hands.

So, we have a special and deep connection where some of our group leaders traveled down there and get materials that we use for our Pueblo for the same purposes as our ancestors did.

[Lakin]

So I believe you're referring to the Whitmore panel. And so for those listening, there's a petroglyph panel.

And so it's way down on that end of the canyon. And Ribbon Falls is on the north corridor. So like Malia mentioned, there's some imagery that depicts the emergence story of our people.

But circling back to your experience in college athletics, you did mention that you went to Scottsdale College for basketball. And we just want to know, like, what were some highlights of that experience?

[Malia Ukestine]

Yeah, I would say definitely meeting new people and getting a new experience outside the Pueblo, since that's where all I knew and where I was from. So definitely meeting new people.

They became my second family, especially my roommates and my coaches. Like, if I call them, then I know they'll always be there for me. And I would definitely say, we made it to the finals.

So, we won against one of our rivals, Mesa. And that was probably one of the best games that I played at SCC. And the crowd was so into it as well, which I love, like, every second of it.

So I would say those would be one of my best experiences there from SCC.

[Lakin]

Yeah, and it's pretty exciting getting to hear the crowd get louder as the game gets into the fourth quarter. So that's pretty cool that you got to not only be in those moments but also be a participant in the actual game.

So yeah, that's, that's cool that you got to be there. But did you have anyone that inspired you to pursue collegiate basketball? Or did you have moments in your life that inspired that?

[Malia Ukestine]

I from a younger age, I always knew that I wanted to go at a higher level and play. But I would say who inspired me the most would be my sisters, because they are younger than me.

So, I wanted them to have someone to look up to and to show them that whatever you work at, you can get done in life with dedication. And also a point in my life, in my high school career, my basketball coach, coach Joshua Dupont, I would say he was one of my inspirations. Because during my junior year, I had torn my ACL.

And that's when COVID was happening as well. So, it was just a tough mental space for me. And just having him like having my back and him always being there for me and just pushing me to be my best was very, very inspiring to me.

And just he was, he always knew that I would be special and the next level. So just have him having my back, and him going through that whole experience with me. And so that would probably be one of my inspirations.

And also my mom, she, she sacrificed a lot for me and my siblings. And she gave up a lot as well. And just her showing us that we can do it like on the next level by ourselves and just being ourselves and we can do whatever with hard work and dedication and just putting our time into whatever we want.

[Lakin]

Yeah, and it's always good to have those people close to you that always want to uplift you, especially family. And so that's why our community is we still sustain those cultural values is because our families are so connected in that way that you described. But also like the challenges that we experience, kind of help inform how we approach challenges in the future.

Yeah. So as an athlete, and also a student, you represented the Zuni community in a positive light. Why is indigenous representation important in collegiate sports?

[Malia Ukestine]

I would say it's important because not many of us get to experience that college experience or definitely not playing sports while in college.

So I feel like me having that representation gave Native athletes inspiration to grow into that light and to show them that they are capable of going on to the next level. And also, I feel like a lot of Native American people are overlooked just because of how small our community is, especially Zuni. So me being in that positive light, it showed that we are resilient and that we are deserving of a chance to show our talents and abilities.

[Lakin]

Yeah, and I definitely feel like every small effort to improve this representation matters, whether it's like, not only being an athlete, but also going to college and obtaining your degree in whatever it is that you find interest in. But I want to know, what message do you have for youth back at home who wish to pursue collegiate athletics?

[Malia Ukestine]

I would say to trust the process and that everyone is on their own path. Because for me personally, I was always overthinking and being like, why ain't I already at this level? Or just comparing myself to others.

So I would just say, just trust the process and believe that everything happens for a reason and everyone is on their own pace on their own path. And if you are wanting to do collegiate sports, I would say definitely take the time to perfect your craft and take care of your body mentally and physically. Because it is a lot with school and like keeping your grades up and being with practice and wanting to perform great.

So I would say definitely just keeping your mental at a good state and just getting that extra work in and keeping your body good. I mean, I was in the training room like 24-7. That was my second home.

So yeah, that would be my advice.

[Lakin]

Nice. And so anyone listening to this, we hope that you do that.

So yeah. Thank you, Malia. And we always throw in a fun question for our interviewee, but also for the audience.

And our fun question is, it's pretty big. What's your favorite indigenous food?

[Malia Ukestine]

My favorite indigenous food? Hmm, well, probably the red chili soup with our Zuni bread. That would probably be my favorite.

Or Chuleya:we, so pozole. But that would definitely be my top two. There's too many I can't pick.

[Lakin]

Do you like your red chili stew hot or mild?

[Malia Ukestine]

Hot. I definitely like it hot.

[Lakin]

Nice. Okay, we're kind of getting to the end of the program here. But did you have a message that you want to leave the audience with here in person, but also listening?

[Malia Ukestine]

I would just say thank you for tuning in with me and showing support. It was great talking about my community and where I came from.

I would also like to see more Native athletes succeed. Just because like I said, we are a small community. And I feel like as a community, we are one.

So definitely just going out there and experiencing the world or going to college, whatever you may do, it's always a good light.

[Lakin]

Nice. So we'll open questions up to the audience here.

[audience member]

Okay. You talked about you spent a lot of time in the training room, then that was like your second home in a way. I bet that was a lot of work.

I actually have two. It's like, what did you what were some like things you did during training? And then I feel like that was a lot of work. So how did you like specifically take care of yourself?

Because you said like, you'd take care of yourself mentally and physically. How did you like really achieve that yourself?

[Malia Ukestine]

Yeah, so like I said, I tore my ACL. So that training went to my knee and just getting it stronger. So we did lots of weightlifting, and just building my knee up back to where it was.

And so after that, some treatment we will do would be ice baths or heating pads. And also we would, I forgot it was like these air compressions where they would go on the legs and just compress your legs. So that was probably one of my favorite ones.

But other than that, for mentally, I would say just going out and just hanging out with my friends and being around my family that really helped me mentally. And even like, even though my family wasn't with me physically, I was, I always knew that they were a call away. So I will always call my family and like just check up on them.

So I would say that really helped me mentally. And just being around like my friends and family.

[audience member]

I know this probably goes into the category of questions that you get a lot. Because you just graduated recently, right with the associate's degree. What are you because you're talking about business and like, what are you hoping to do with your career?

[Malia Ukestine]

Yeah, so I work in the car business.

But right now, I do want to go back to school to go into nursing. So right now I'm just working. But once I go back, I do plan on going into the nursing program to be a travel nurse, RN travel nurse, I do want to travel the world and help people.

So yeah, those are my plans.

[Lakin]

I kind of have a question. Since you work in the car business, do you have a favorite car or dream car?

[Malia Ukestine]

Yeah, Acura TLX.

That'd be my mom's car.

[Lakin]

Okay, cool. That's it, everyone. Thank you all for coming. And thank you guys for tuning in online as well.

[Ranger Jonah]

Grand Canyon Speaks is a program hosted by Grand Canyon National Park and the Grand Canyon Conservancy.

A special thanks to Aaron White for the theme music. This recording reflects the personal lived experiences of tribal members and do not encompass the views of their tribal nation or that of the National Park. To learn more about Grand Canyon First Voices, visit www.nps.gov/grca.

Here at Grand Canyon National Park, we are on the ancestral homelands of the 11 associated tribes of the Grand Canyon. These being the Havasupai tribe, the Hualapai tribe, the Navajo Nation, the Hopi tribe, the Pueblo of Zuni, the Yavapai Apache Nation, the Kaibab Band of Paiute Indians, the Las Vegas Paiute Tribe, the Moapa Band of Paiutes, the Paiute Indian Tribe of Utah, and the San Juan Southern Paiute Tribe.

Nahongvita! Askwali! Kwa’kwa! Just some of the words you may hear if you ever run a race at one of the Hopi villages. Wendi Lewis describes her running journey which ultimately influenced her to become a cross country and track coach. Now a head coach at Tuba City High School, she incorporates the cultural aspects of running for her team. She also tells us about her apparel business and how she uses it to help the community through fundraisers.

---

TRANSCRIPT:

---

[Wendi Lewis]

The whole point of me starting the apparel company was that I wanted to do things for the community. I wanted to help, you know, people, like she said, kids need to go somewhere to run. I'll try to fundraise for them through the apparel, hosting races, with the apparel being, you know, the prizes that people tend to really like.

And I finally was able to establish my own nonprofit based on the experiences that, you know, I was given when I was little.

[Lakin]

Hello everyone. Welcome back to Grand Canyon Speaks. This is Lakin.

[Meranden]

And this is Meranden.

[Lakin]

We really appreciate you all for tuning in to this podcast, especially this season.

[Meranden]

Today's episode is about Wendy Lewis. She is Hopi and from the village of Kikotsmovi, who is the boys cross-country and track coach at Tuba City High School.

[Lakin]

She talks about her business and how she uses it to help fundraise for her runners, how time culture into running is part of her coaching philosophy, and tells us about what you may experience if you ever run a race at one of the Hopi villages.

[Meranden]

It was a pleasure to speak with Wendi this past summer, and I'm excited for all of you to hear her story.

[Lakin]

Here is Wendi Lewis.

[Wendi Lewis]

Good evening, everybody. My name is Wendi Lewis, and I am from the village of Kikotsmovi. I'm Hopi.

I'm Tawawungwa. My Hopi name is Kuwanhaysi That was given to me by the Coyote Clan.

I'm very honored to be here, so.

[Meranden]

Awesome.

[Wendi Lewis]

Yeah. Thank you for inviting me.

[Meranden]

Of course. And in similarity, I am also Hopi as well. My clans are Piikyaswungwa and Tsuwungwa.

Those are my Hopi clan, so both corn and snake. And then my Hopi name is Siikyatsumana, which means yellow snake girl. So those are some of our relations here with our tribes, and I'm very welcome to be joined here with Wendi because she's actually someone that a lot of people in our community look up to.

But first of all, have you been to the Grand Canyon before?

[Wendi Lewis]

I've actually lived in the Grand Canyon for a brief period of time. I went to school here for part of my fourth grade year. Yeah, so my family has all of my grandma and grandpa raised their kids here.

So I still have family that live here in the village.

[Meranden]

Nice. Yeah, and then you reside in Tuba City, which is also where I'm from. But you are a coach at Tuba City High School, and I just wanted to ask, how did you start your running journey?

[Wendi Lewis]

I've been running for as long as I can remember. I feel like my running journey started when I got entered into a race and won it when I was like six years old. My mom married a coach for the Hopi High girls cross country team, and I had no choice.

I just ran with them all the time, and that's been my life. That's how it started. And then you ran in school throughout high school?

[Meranden]

How far did you run?

[Wendi Lewis]

I ran all the way through junior college, Paradise Valley Community College.

[Meranden]

I ran two years there. Nice, and then that running seemed to have stuck with you to where you are now a coach. But what made you decide to coach high school cross country and track?

[Wendi Lewis]

I had a rocky journey trying to attain my bachelor's degree. In between all of that, I did coach at Hopi High School. I was an assistant coach for the junior high track team, high school girls cross country team, the team I used to run for, and then took a very long break.

About four years ago, I started volunteering at Tuba City High School. The last couple of years, or I want to say last year, I finally got hired as the head coach for the for the boys program, and I just recently got approved to be their coach again this fall.

[Meranden]

Nice, and I know through this school, it's on the reservation, and you've been able to coach a lot of indigenous students. Through running, has it helped connect your runners to their culture?

[Wendi Lewis]

Yes, that's a big part of my coaching philosophy because that's how I was coached. And I just had this conversation. I was just volunteer coaching at a Hopi running camp out home, and you know, talking to them about how I was coached by my stepfather.

I didn't realize until way later how important it was, the connection between life, between our culture as Hopi people, and the underlying reward of being a good runner. Like, you know, the emphasis was not on winning trophies. It was always about being respectful of tying in our culture into what we did at practice, and that's what I try to do now.

As a head coach, it's a little bit tricky because I was raised traditionally at home, and coming into this this new community where there's a village right across the street from Tuba City, or two villages I should say, and so we have a mix of Hopi and Navajo, and it's, you know, I have to pay attention. You also have people who go to church, you know. Out home on Hopi, it was just Hopi, and it was easy, you know, but now it's about like finding a balance and trying to learn about their culture too, and trying to, you know, make those connections between how I coach the Hopi kids.

I mean, and I try not to single them out, but I try to make that connection with all of them. It's a little tricky, but I'm trying.

[Meranden]

Yeah, and I know you said there's emphasis on the culture, and you were able to do that with the kids in Hopi. What is the importance of running to Hopi?

[Wendi Lewis]

The importance of running for Hopi is just getting our kids, our youth, our people to understand that we don't run for ourselves. We run for life. We run for rain.

It's an interesting cycle of, you know, land farmers, and we rely on the rain to grow our corn. Our corn is very important for us in ceremony. Like all of the things we do, we rely on those things, and then just the respect for life, all living things.

These are all like key things that we try to emphasize to our people on, you know, when we go out to run. It's a form of prayer. It's not physical activity, and so I think that's what makes it so important and special to us.

There's so much more that we want to get out of it, and we recognize that just in general, and Hopi, I mean, you could be running down, just going for a run, and you know, we thank, we always thank. You ever run on Hopi, they'll thank you in our language, because we recognize that as prayer. So, Askwali is the version for a female, and Kwa’kwa is the version for a male.

Anytime, you could, you don't even have to be racing. They'll see you, and somebody will yell that out to you, because that is what we believe running is about.

[Meranden]

Yeah, we see that really often when we have like any kind of race that's happening back home in Tuba, or pretty much, yeah, also there's another race that happens out more in the Hopi villages, whether it's the Lewis Tewanima race, there's people scattered all over thanking you for running. So, like she mentioned, it's prayer, and it's, we tried to continue explaining the importance of running, and what it means to us, and I know that you also are a business owner, and it does incorporate a lot of the importance of running, and what running means to us. Would you be able to explain a little bit more of what your business entails?

[Wendi Lewis]

Yeah, so I started a long time ago, and I have to give credit to, you know, someone who I know, I think I have to mention a little bit later, but I grew up running with her from high school on, and one of the comments one time was that, you know, I wish, you know, because we're so prideful in our running, and what we run for, and when we make it to another level of running, it was like, I wish we had something that we could, you know, that would show that we're Hopi, if we're running in California, or in the Boston Marathon, or, you know, anything like that, and it was, it was just something that stuck in my head, and then one year, my daughter was running high school, Hopi High, and they wanted me to design a shirt for them, so that they could wear it at state, and I really wanted that shirt to be something that, if any Hopi could see that shirt, they would know without words that it was Hopi, so, and I wanted to symbolize the strength of females, because females have this really strong role in our culture, especially our youth, you know, we consider them at their purest, in their youth ages, so I wanted to incorporate all of that. I came up with a shirt with some Hopi girls, all in the position of, like, holding hands, their eyes closed, and that was just based on my upbringing from my coach. Prayer was a big part of, in, in running, and so it's supposed to, like, symbolize that she's in prayer, and there's seven of them all in a circle, because seven compete in a race at the state meet, and so I just kind of put them all in the circle, and that's kind of what started it, and you guys can pass that around, that's her right there, just call her the mana, and so that kind of started everything, and from then, I just kept trying to figure out ways to make different types of designs that reflected our culture, trying to explain, you know, the importance, there's the shirt there that, you know, talks about prayer, or running is prayer, and so it's in the formation of a rain cloud using feet and heart, because there's a word of encouragement that you'll also hear people yell out to you, it's, you know, Nahongvita, it's a, it's a word of self-encouragement and strength, and so the heart, it talks about, you know, digging deep with your heart, and so that's why I wanted to incorporate feet and heart in that design, as a symbol of prayer that we hope would bring the rain, so that's my company now, it turned, I try really hard to keep it going, I do also have a little boy, so I wanted the female to represent Hopi, certain aspects of Hopi female strength, and it took me a few years to do a boy, to figure out how I wanted to represent the boy, and like I said, you know, farming is so important to us, it is our culture, and I wanted the boy to reflect that, I hear, listen to stories about the history of our, the strength of our men, back when they used to run to the fields instead of drive their trucks, back when they ran from village to village, but ultimately highlighting the importance of farming, so the little boy there is, you can see him, he is represented carrying a soya, which is a planting stick, and then in his hand is posume, it's a bag of seeds that is used for planting, so I shared this with my boys cross-country team this past year, and I explained to them the importance of, you know, even the Navajo, my Navajo boys, I don't think I have, I think I just have Hopi and Navajo boys running for me, but, you know, explaining the importance of the strength of what you believe in, and the things that you're taught and raised, giving them that to use as a reminder for what they're running for, more than just time and medals, yeah, but that's the business, I have little accessories and stuff that, I have a, I opened up a shop in Tuba City across, at the Tuuvi Travel Center, and when I'm able to open it, it's open, but yeah, so that's my business in a nutshell.

[Meranden]

Yeah, and I noticed that you have a couple different things in there, you sell shirts, leggings, what are some other things that you sell?

[Wendi Lewis]

Stickers, everybody loves stickers, I have running tops, some lightweight jackets, pullovers, girl pullovers, I do have running shorts that just have the design, whether it's the logo, or if it's a little boy, with the word run on it. A funny story, I forgot my running shoes a few years ago when I was running, registered to run a 10k in Sedona, and I had to run in my Crocs that I was wearing, and it was not an easy course either, it was very technical, but I just decided to make Croc charms, you know, if I, in case I ever have to run in my Crocs again, I will represent my apparel through, with the Croc charm, so I have those two, just keychains, little accessories, and things like that, yeah.

[Meranden]

I actually do own one of your leggings, because you do a lot of fundraisers for the students too, like that you're athletes, and I ran one, I wasn't supposed to, I wasn't going to, and then my mom's like, you should just go run, it was the morning of, and it's, my sister, I was supporting my sister, and then my mom's like, you should just go run, so I was like, okay, I'll pay the, I paid the fee, and then I was like, I don't have any shoes, and then my mom's like, I looked at my mom and she had tennis shoes, I was like, let me use your shoes, so I used her shoes and I ran, and then I did pretty good to where I got one of the prizes, which was one of her leggings, so yeah, I have something that's hers, but yeah, there's a lot of inspiration behind your business, and the clothing that you make, and running all together, who are some runners, or people that you look up to?

[Wendi Lewis]

Well, like I said, I, you know, my, my friend, her name is Caroline Sekaquaptewa, she's been running for, I mean, like, I met her in junior high, because, like I said, my stepdad dragged me to all his practices, and she, she had graduated already, but she started helping him, and I really connected with her at that young age, and she would take me everywhere to run with her. She runs to this day, I think she was, this past year was her 14th consecutive qualification for Boston. She's done three Ironman triathlons, and she's just, like, you know, she's just such a hard worker, so she's a big inspiration to everything I do, like, everything I want to make, I think of her, like, will she wear this, you know, would she wear this when she's running?

Yeah, I have to say, like, I have to give her credit as, you know, my biggest inspiration for the apparel line, and things that I come out with. I run ideas by her. I have brothers who are artists.

I really value their artistic skills, so I, you know, reach out to them, and then my coaches, you know, my coaches that have supported me for as long as I can remember. Every time I do anything associated with running, I think of them, and hope that I'm making them proud.

[Meranden]

It's good that you have those people that you look up to, and then also, like you mentioned, she's helping you figure out items that you want to have included in your business, which is really nice. Much like how running is very important to Hopi, what importance does the Grand Canyon have to Hopi?

[Wendi Lewis]

The Grand Canyon is, it's very important to us. For me and, I mean, for Hopi, of course, but there was a lot of Hopis that grew up here, here in the village. I remember looking at my mom's yearbooks, and I see all these Hopi last names in there.

I don't know what made them, you know, settle in this area, but I feel like, you know, they kind of were taking care of the area, and I, my grandpa was kind of like my father figure, and he raised me, but, you know, I feel like when I come here, I'm kind of connected with them, like all of my family that all lived here, but I don't feel like I'm the greatest expert in, you know, I don't know too much details about the very, very, I know basics, but I just don't feel comfortable talking about it, because I'm not, you know, well-versed in it, or I guess there's also, like, a part of me that doesn't want to, you know, really ask those questions.

There's images sometimes that are shared from sacred points in the village that, you know, it scares me. I don't, I don't like to look at them. I don't feel like we should be looking at them, so it's, that's how, that's how sacred this, this place is to us.

[Meranden]

Yeah, there's a lot of importance, like, like I mentioned, there's eleven tribes here that call the Grand Canyon home, and Hopi is one of them, and as you can tell, there's a lot of importance to us, so make sure, like, we always mention to people to take care of it like it's your own home, and yeah. But usually, in this interview, we like to ask a fun question, and the fun question is, if you could have any indigenous food right now, what would it be? That's a tough question.

Do people answer their own foods? No, well, they answer, a lot of them, like, choose food from the flea market, so.

[Wendi Lewis]

Okay, I wasn't sure if that was indigenous, but the first thing that came to my head was a mutton sandwich.

[Meranden]

It's either that one, it's almost always mutton, or like steamed corn stew, so that's like the same thing. Okay, yeah, I love mutton sandwiches. Yeah, that's so good.

Can you explain what mutton is? Some people don't know what it is.

[Wendi Lewis]

Okay, mutton is sheep, grilled sheep, right? They just fillet it, I guess, and then put it on a frybread, preferably for me. They usually add corn, potato, and green chili.

I have my own way of, like, so they put, like, a halved potato in there, which does not make sense to me, so every time I get my sandwich, I'm, like, crumbling the potato, so, like, it's evenly distributed through my sandwich, and yeah, so, but I really like that, and I add cheese, which people think is weird, but it's just me, yeah, and onions. If they don't put onions in it, I put onions in it.

[Meranden]

Interesting.

[Wendi Lewis]

Yeah, I never had it like that.

[Meranden]

I just eat it as it is. Okay, cool. So, yeah, as we are getting to the end of this interview, which we will open up questions to the audience if anyone has any, I just want to pose one last question.

Is there anything that you would like to leave the audience with?

[Wendi Lewis]

Just, you know, to emphasize how important Hopi running is to us as people, and, you know, we just had this conversation at the running camp that a local wellness center hosted for our kids, and, you know, there are certain things that we're open to sharing, but there are certain things that, you know, we're still protective of, but, you know, always welcoming you to come and experience a run out there on Hopi.

There's a lot of local organizations that host runs. I've actually evolved, so a funny story about the, it's not a funny story, but the whole point of me starting the apparel company was that I wanted to do things for the community. I wanted to help, you know, people, like she said, kids need to go somewhere to run.

I'll try to fundraise for them through the apparel, hosting races, with the apparel being, you know, the prizes that people tend to really like, and I finally was able to establish my own nonprofit based on the experiences that, you know, I was given when I was little for running, and, you know, trying to share as much as I can, but also being respectful of what I shouldn't share. I think it's always great to invite, you know, people who aren't from Hopi to keep an eye out for a race out there, because, you know, it could even be a small free race. It's an experience.

You do feel the sense of gratitude that our people have when you're out there running, so if you're ever having a chance, go check it out.

[Meranden]

Yeah, and if you're not familiar, Tuba is about, like, an hour away, so it's not that far if you guys want to go visit. Okay, does anyone have any questions?

[Audience Member]

So, it is my understanding that Meranden, and maybe Lakin, and maybe some other people, are running a race or a marathon this fall. I'm curious if you have any words of encouragement for these folks.

[Wendi Lewis]

Yeah, Meranden actually reached out to me, and I failed at, you know, getting back with her in terms of her, but I'm really excited for her, and are you also training? Okay, yeah, I wish you the best, and you are welcome to reach out. I will come run with you if guys come to Tuba.

I'll go on a training run with you, so yeah.

[Meranden]

I'm kind of glad you mentioned that. Yeah, me and Lakin, we signed up for a half marathon that's happening here at Grand Canyon. It's at the end of October, so we have some time, but we kind of just were like, we should do it, pulled up the website, paid for it, and then we just left it, so yeah.

The best way to get started. Yeah, so we've been running around here. It's nice.

My biggest fear is like snakes now, so I'm kind of scared of them.

[Wendi Lewis]

Yeah.

[Meranden]

But I do have some running in me. My mom ran really good in high school. They were like good state champs.

My mom, her brother, and then my grandpa, they're really good runners, and then my little, my two little sisters, they ran cross-country and track, so it's kind of in my blood. I always played volleyball, so I didn't do running, but I can do running if I need to.

[Wendi Lewis]

Yeah. Yeah, I think did you actually come in first at that race that we had for the girls, females?

[Meranden]

No, I did third. I barely made it, but yeah.

[Wendi Lewis]

All right. I just wanted to add one thing, since this is, you know, and I feel really bad I didn't mention them earlier. They're also heroes to me.

I just mentioned Caroline, because she's, you know, I've known her the longest, but we have, I have another really good friend. They're all so supportive of all the work that I do. Steven Ovah is Hopi from the village of Sitsomovi, and he actually got in for the Western States 100, which he'll be competing in at the end of this month, which is huge.

He went through a lot. He, you know, he was earning his tickets, and then I don't remember what happened, and he had to start all over again, and he was so frustrated, and I just remember the excitement when he announced that he got drawn for Western States this year, so we're gonna be cheering him on. Look up Western States Endurance Run 100, and then the other is Kellen Lomayestewa.

Two years ago, he finished a Cocodona 250, and that really brought a lot of our community together, really excited everybody. He didn't do it this year, but he did register under a charity bib. He'll be fundraising for the Hopi Foundation, and he'll be competing in Cocodona 250 in 2026, so I, you know, I do what I can.

Like I said, you know, the apparel, I try to help them, you know, fundraise for them. I've seen the work that it takes to crew for ultras, and it's a lot of money. It's, you know, so especially for Steve trying to travel out to Olympic Valley, California, so, you know, I just wanted to give them a shout out and thank them for always, always supporting everything that I do, whether it's the apparel, the nonprofit work, all of that.

They're also big heroes to me, too.

[Meranden]

All right, we're gonna be ending our sunset talk now. Askwali to Wendi for being here today, and yeah, thank you guys for being here. Thank you.

[Speaker 3]

Grand Canyon Speaks is a program hosted by Grand Canyon National Park and the Grand Canyon Conservancy. A special thanks to Aaron White for the theme music. This recording reflects the personal, lived experiences of tribal members and do not encompass the views of their tribal nation or that of the National Park.

To learn more about Grand Canyon First Voices, visit www.nps.gov/GRCA. Here at Grand Canyon National Park, we are on the ancestral homelands of the 11 associated tribes of the Grand Canyon, these being the Havasupai tribe, the Hualapai tribe, the Navajo Nation, the Hopi tribe, the Pueblo of Zuni, the Yavapai Apache Nation, the Kaibab Band of Paiute Indians, the Las Vegas Paiute tribe, the Moapa Band of Paiutes, the Paiute Indian tribe of Utah, and the San Juan Southern Paiute tribe.

In this episode, Ranger Grace interviewed Kyle Awelagte to discuss his cross country and track experience as a collegiate athlete. As Kyle is from the Zuni Pueblo, he describes the cultural significance of running and shares that his family has a multi-generational history of running in Zuni. Not only is he an athlete, but he is an artist: Kyle shares his work as a fetish carver and the spiritual connections that revolve around this ancestral form of creativity. Tune in to this episode and enjoy!

---

TRANSCRIPT:

---

Kyle Awelagte: I want to be able to teach the younger generation more about like the traditional and spiritual aspect of running and different art forms. I think that's my way of giving back to my community and keeping it thriving and living for as long as it goes

Lakin: Hello everyone, welcome back to season three of Grand Canyon Speaks.

My name is Lakin.

Meranden: And this is Meranden.

Lakin: In this episode, Ranger Grace interviewed Kyle Awelagte from Zuni Pueblo.

Meranden: Kyle, who runs cross-country at Fort Lewis College, has centered his focus on passing down traditional teachings revolving around athletics and art.

Lakin: From hosting a running event in his community to providing Zuni artists with business resources, Kyle looks forward to expanding on these endeavors in the future.

Meranden: Take a listen to this episode and we hope you enjoy.

Kyle Awelagte: Keshi, ko' don la:k'yadik'yana:we. Ho' Kyle Awelagte le'shinna. Hom annodi:we Dowa:kwe deyan K'yak'yali:kwe a:wan cha'le.

Kyle Awelagte: Good afternoon, my name is Kyle Awelagte. My clans are Corn and Child of the Eagle, and I am from the Zuni Pueblo. And this is my first time here, so it's exciting.

Kyle Awelagte: Thank you guys for all coming out and listening.

Ranger Grace: Yeah, and thank you so much, Kyle, for being here. It's really cool to have you out here.

Ranger Grace: And it's kind of hard to ignore the setting we're at. We are at the canyon, and the canyon's right behind us for those of you who are listening and not in the audience right now. And I do want to ask, just to get started, how does it feel to be at the canyon?

Kyle Awelagte: When I first got here, me and Shanoah were driving late at night, and we happened to see cloud storms like this, and a thunderstorm really hit. And at one point, I was kind of scared, but I knew that my ancestors were looking down on me. That was kind of like a signal that I'm back where we emerged from.

Kyle Awelagte: So I feel really connected to this place. It feels good to be here. Yeah, that's great.

Ranger Grace: That's a good example of how sneaky those thunderstorms can be when they show up, but a good sign at the same time. We like rain out here a lot. So part of the reason you're at the canyon is not just for the Grand Canyon Speaks.

Ranger Grace: Earlier today, you were demonstrating in the [Desert View] Watchtower as part of our cultural demonstration program, and there you were doing some, had some of your Zuni fetish carvings there. And to kind of let people who don't know, know about that, what is Zuni fetish carving? What were you doing at the time?

Kyle Awelagte: Zuni fetish carving is a form of art and also a way of expressing Zuni storytelling and tradition. It's typically used from natural stones and seashells and sometimes some elk antlers. So what Zuni fetish carving is, is an artist creates an animal or a spiritual, so what I like to make is called corn maidens.

Kyle Awelagte: So they have significance within our culture and the Zuni religion. A lot of it's used for some ceremonial practices and religious practices. And a lot of those pieces are for good omen.

Kyle Awelagte: A lot of them hold significant power in them. And a lot of people back home say that they're alive and which they are alive. They're living creatures, or not living creatures, but like a living spirit within that rock in that stone.

Kyle Awelagte: So that's why I do it just because of my culture and historical background on Zuni carving.

Ranger Grace: Yeah. And what got you into Zuni carving?

Like what was the moment you were like, I'm going to do this. And when did you start?

Kyle Awelagte: I remember when I was like 11 years old, my dad, he had his little motor set up inside the house and he was blasting music at one point while I was taking a nap.

And I went to go check in on him on what he was doing. And I saw that he had a piece of stone. It was angelite.

Kyle Awelagte: It was a really bright blue, kind of like a baby blue stone. And he was creating something out of it. And I asked like, “what are you doing?” And he said, “just watch this.” And he made a bear in like 20 minutes, 10 minutes. And I thought that was like the coolest thing ever.

Kyle Awelagte: So just from him explaining over the years, like what the purpose is and what like Zuni carving is, I saw that as like opportunity to learn and also opportunity to grow in my culture. So yeah, that's when I started really learning about Zuni fetish carving at age 11. And ever since then, he's brought me to trips like Santa Fe and different places. Just like, I just love the environment, like being able to be creative and have deeper meaning behind the art we make.

Ranger Grace: Yeah. And when you say trips like Santa Fe, what do you mean with that?

Kyle Awelagte: So usually in Santa Fe, New Mexico, they have like a big open like Indian market and a bunch of shops over there that sell like a bunch of Native American, different like jewelry, fetishes, just different stuff. And just being surrounded in that environment and looking what a lot of artists produce is something to be proud of. Just having that symbolism and different craftsmanship in like a big city is pretty cool to see.

Ranger Grace: Yeah, it sounds like a really inspiring environment to be in, especially with those crafts. And speaking of environment, I feel like you really set the scene with the story of your dad kind of with the loud music waking you up. And you mentioned like having the tools for fetish carving.

Ranger Grace: What is that process like? What goes into making a fetish?

Kyle Awelagte: So they tell you to have good thoughts and good spirit when you're doing fetish carving, because that's what you ultimately want to put into the rock. Just good, good spirit into it. So you start off by getting your raw materials, like your rock you find. So it can be like turquoise, serpentine, marble, just whatever you have.

Kyle Awelagte: And with that, we have a motor set up. So it's like, imagine like a motor that's in the middle, and that's the battery. And on the sides, there's a grinding stone.

And with that grinding stone, what I do is I like to look at the rock and visualize what I want. Because if you force it, it's not going to want to go that way. You kind of just have to work with the rock and like the shape and what you see in it.

Kyle Awelagte: So that's my second process. And I like to turn on music to like, make my spirit more happy. So I'll turn on like reggae or whatever I liked on the radio.

And yeah, I'll just get like getting like good vibes going. And having like the people around me that I love, just watching me create something. But other than that, you create the stone using the grinding wheel.

Kyle Awelagte: And my dad taught me to always like round it first and see what it comes out to. And a lot of the times it usually comes out to eagles. So I think eagles really speak out to me, and even bears. And with that, you kind of, you make the face for it. And you make the eyes because at the end of the product, it's living. So you want it to see.

Kyle Awelagte: And you create these bundles. So I use like wax to wrap it around and put little pieces of turquoise or coral. It's a offering to it. Or you can either sprinkle cornmeal on it, just to give appreciation for what you created. Yeah, so it's really just working with the stone and using your grinding wheel to create what you want, or what it wants to become. That's why I always say because you can't force it.

Kyle Awelagte: It's kind of a simple but kind of like a kind of joyful experience with it. It's also very dangerous too. Because you can like, sometimes I clip my finger with the grinding stone. And that's not too fun. But the music part is fun. And having my family and my dad teach me, that's the fun part. Yeah.

Ranger Grace: Yeah, it feels better to focus on the fun than the dangerous part.

Kyle Awelagte: Yeah.

Ranger Grace: And you've been doing that for a long time then. Because you said you started at 11. You're 21. So about 10 years.

Kyle Awelagte: Yeah.

Ranger Grace: Which is a long time to be doing a craft like that. So how have you seen that process change over time?

Kyle Awelagte: When I was 11, it took me like, probably like two weeks to like a month to even like, create something. Just because I didn't know what I was doing and how to work like the wheel and motor.

Kyle Awelagte: But ever since like, just watching my dad and him telling me stories about like, you can't force what you want to make. Because that's what I would do at a young age, I would try to force it and the rock would just crumble and not go the way I want it and make me frustrated and not want to do it. But he just told me to have that patience and time and always come in with good spirits and listen to what the rock wants to have you make out of it.

Kyle Awelagte: So just using those tellings from my father. So it really helped me develop as an artist and just a person in general, just life lessons and how I go about my heart and yeah, just my approach on it. So over the years, I've gotten better.

Kyle Awelagte: I've never had like opportunities like this where I've been able to demonstrate to people like around the world or anything. I've always just did it just out of like habit, because it was always fun to me, just growing up, not really having anything to do besides sports. So when I have like, any like something on my mind, and I just want to take it off my mind, I just like to turn on the music and just go to work on my craft.

Kyle Awelagte: So yeah, so over the years, it's really developed. Now I can like carve like with it like 30 minutes to an hour, depending on the stone. So I've gotten really better.

Ranger Grace: Yeah, yeah, it's cool to be able to kind of give yourself to the process.

Kyle Awelagte: Yeah.

Ranger Grace: And really bring that energy to it and the intention. You mentioned there, sports as well. So not only do you do this craft and this art, but you're in sports as well. What sports do you do?

Kyle Awelagte: Yeah, so ever since I was in elementary school, I've ran for the public school district for Zuni. And I started off when I was nine years old, is when I really started running.

Kyle Awelagte: I started, yeah, I started to just run out of like, because my mom told me to, to get out of the house and do something. So I just started running. I thought I was going to be a basketball player. I mean, I was a basketball player, but I'm not, I'm not good. And then my direction was mainly towards running just because over the years I've learned that Zunis and other Native American tribes are really good in running. And they've always used that way, even back then, to get to places.

Kyle Awelagte: They would travel long distances on their feet or even have like moccasins if they're lucky to run with. But I think just having that background in running is what really inspired me to go further and beyond than what I thought I could be capable of. So running's my, running's my thing.

Ranger Grace: Yeah, and with running, you kind of lean towards this a little bit with what you just said. Like fetish carving, that also has really big cultural significance. So what is the cultural significance in the historical context of running for Zuni?

Kyle Awelagte: So running is like just a way of life. I say it's a way of life of being able to, well, this is my perspective on running, being able to spiritually connect and mentally being able to get through things. So when I'm running, I usually pray in the morning to ask Sun Father for strength and guidance during like my runs.

Kyle Awelagte: And yeah, so I would say that's like a cultural teaching I've put into running. So it's just, it's more than, I feel it's more than running, like just, you know, getting hyped for a race and being like, let's go, let's go run, like in that competitive era. But I see it more as like a way of healing, like being able to know I work for something and work for a group of people that are known, like being able to just to represent something bigger than myself through running.

Kyle Awelagte: So like having that, having that background is something special and amazing. So yeah.

Ranger Grace: Yeah, I've heard other interviewees use the phrase running with purpose.

Kyle Awelagte: Yeah.

Ranger Grace: That same thing of like having it be meaningful.

Ranger Grace: And for you both running and the art you do, you started doing very young. And you've mentioned to me your kind of involvement and passion for Indigenous youth getting involved in cultural tradition. So what's the importance of that involvement for youth and cultural tradition?

Kyle Awelagte: Just being able to continue the tradition through the younger generation, I think is important because grandparents and those with knowledge tend to pass down those teachings to younger people. And just having that ability to do that is what keeps your people alive and your way of living, I would say. Yeah, just that's, that's really important because in ancient times, that's all anyone had.

Kyle Awelagte: We didn't have like a phone or text messages or like files or like, you know, iPads to like record anything. It was just orally taught, verbally or shown, like demonstrated towards the younger audience. So I really think it's important that our youth get involved with their ways of living or their traditional practices.

Kyle Awelagte: Because when I was little, my mom and like my grandparents and just community members would just tell me these random stories and like what to do and what not to do. And I think that's the most important thing that someone can do to the younger generation. So with that, I want to be able to teach the younger generation more about like the traditional and spiritual aspect of running and different art forms.

Kyle Awelagte: I think that's my way of like giving back to my community and keeping it thriving and living for as long as it goes. Yeah.

Ranger Grace: Yeah. And on that note, like with all you've already been doing and with starting both your art and your running so young, you kind of already have implied in a way you are, but like, do you see yourself as a role model for Indigenous youth?

Kyle Awelagte: Sometimes, sometimes I can be like, not really like a role model. I mean, I'm still like a, I'm like a young adult still living in this world and it's kind of hard to, but I try to be, when I go back home and the things I do, I'm careful with how I represent myself because I was, I was also that like little, little kid, like check, like looking at like the stars of like running and like the hardest, like I want to be like them.

Kyle Awelagte: So sometimes I feel like a role model and sometimes I don't, but a lot of times I, I look back at my community and I think I've become a role model, a pretty good role model for the youth. Yeah.

Ranger Grace: You make a good point. You're still young, but yeah, and you can still be a role model in that way. And were there people that were kind of role models for you to get involved with the things you're involved in?

Kyle Awelagte: Yeah. So a lot of my role models came with like in my community. And then of course for like my family members and out of my family, like some of my middle school coaches, their last names are Chopito, like Albert Chopito and them. They're my middle school coaches and my elementary coaches.

Kyle Awelagte: And they're really good at marathons and long distances. So I've always looked up to them and even people outside my community that also work within my community, like Eisinga and Coach Carroll and coaches I've had from high school all the way to college, like the Kyle Masterson, Laura Masterson, Coach Graham, Don Graham at Fort Lewis, which I go to now. Yeah.

Kyle Awelagte: Just having those different role models, something special to have, just having them being able to have them talk to, have gained their knowledge and being able to just have them work with me and what my purpose is as a runner and how I want to represent myself and my people. So having those role models makes everything 10 times easier.

Ranger Grace: Yeah. Adds to the community.

Kyle Awelagte: Yeah.

Ranger Grace: It sounds like school was important for you in that way of like having those opportunities.

Ranger Grace: What are the ways you connect with running outside of school?

Kyle Awelagte: So a lot of my running I like to do back home. I love running back home just because it's really like flat and that's really beneficial to runners just because of the soft sand and the properties of it. And like we can literally like run like two miles and you'll be like up a mountain and you can work hard for that.

Kyle Awelagte: And I respect both aspects because I look towards one for like a easy, relaxed day. And I look towards one to, for like knowing I can work hard and push myself and still having that view of like what I'm trying to represent, having the view of like Zuni and the Pueblo and the mountains, like just reminding myself of where I come from, having that ability to overcome challenges like within my running and having like those easy days, just running around in the village, like just seeing everyone walking and seeing the community members, like going, doing their jobs, having people sell outside the tribal building, their arts. It's just the coolest thing ever.

Kyle Awelagte: And being able to go up to the mountains and just look down, knowing that maybe I can be something big and represent them, knowing that I came from this small little Pueblo. Yeah.

Ranger Grace: Yeah. Representation feels really important. And with those like challenges in running, it sounds like running is ever evolving. And how have you seen that relationship change over time?

Kyle Awelagte: When I was younger, I really didn't know too much about like, like my culture and everything. And once I started like running and like I would always hear these stories of runners just within the community. I know we have like this, we used to have a thing happen in the, in our middle village where runners would, it's called a stick run. So runners would put their valuables in and race against other runners and run around the village.

Kyle Awelagte: And whoever was like the fastest basically collected everything. So that having that history and my dad telling me that our last name was a part of that and we were pretty fast as those runners. So having that knowledge and having, knowing that my people can do longer distances is, makes everything pretty much easier.

Kyle Awelagte: And not having like the knowledge of that before I started to develop my spirituality and my culture was hard at first because I didn't know who to like turn to. So once I started learning those different practices and languages to speak to our Gods and stuff, it life, it became life and running became so much easier in a way because I felt like my prayers were answered and they were hearing me up above. So being able to learn over the years and having that involved with my running and just school in general, it's a, it's a good trait to have and a good feeling that I'm able to continue that even as of right now.

Kyle Awelagte: I still do it to this day. Yeah.

Ranger Grace: That is really cool to hear just the way it has changed over time and the importance that you still hold and the involvement you still have with it.

And if you're willing, we talked earlier that you're actually hosting a running event for Zuni as well, which is a really cool way that you're developing that relationship continuously. If you want to speak to that a little bit. Kyle Awelagte: Yeah, for sure.

Yeah. So I created this run, it's called Corn Maiden Classic. It's in the heart, well not heart in the Zuni, but it's at our mountain called Dowa Yalanne.

Kyle Awelagte: So kind of like the history behind it or the stories told about it is our people use that mountain to get away from a major flood that was happening. And there was this sea serpent called the Kolo:wisi that was underneath swimming through. And the only way that that flood could stop was these two individuals, a boy and a girl were brave enough to put on all their traditional regalia and float all the way to the bottom and do a prayer for the flood to go away.

Kyle Awelagte: And on the mountain, there's these two stones that stick up. So that's a representation of those two who were able to do that. And I think that's so cool because it takes a lot of courage and sacrifice to do those things.

And a lot of people have their own challenges and they sacrifice a lot in their daily lives. So being able to kind of tell those stories about Dowa Yalanne and where I come from and having running incorporated, I think is so cool. It'll consist of a kid's fruit scrabble.

Kyle Awelagte: So that's basically line up some kids and they'll run like a couple meters and they'll be like little baskets of like fruit they can collect and just giving back to the little kids in a way I can. And having people gain health and fitness and just a way of getting out. Just promoting health in general is what I want to do and go further beyond with this event because this is just the beginning stages of some pretty big stuff I want to do later in the future.

Kyle Awelagte: Yeah, so with this I want to start and then create a competitive, kind of like a pro team for Zuni. And then build off of that and create a little center where these different types of athletes in any sport can have access to what a lot of these people have that we don't have. So being able just to raise funds and having accessibility to these different stuff to help young athletes and student-athletes flourish in this new world because technology's growing and growing and helping people adapt.

Kyle Awelagte: And having our cultural ways and having that new technology I think is gonna really be beneficial to our people, yeah. Ranger Grace: And it's an important kind of future and passion to have. .

And how are you like pursuing that? Kyle Awelagte: So I'm pursuing that in like different ways. Like just really starting to put myself out there because I was always like a shy person, never including myself into events or anything.

So I'm going to Fort Lewis College as of right now for a business administration, so bachelor's degree. And I want to use that business degree to help expand my passion running in art. So I want to help artists turn their art and their image into something much bigger than what they could imagine.

Kyle Awelagte: And having these different resources like in the village and not having to go seek out other resources. So just making that accessible at home while having that authentic credibility towards the artists themselves. Ranger Grace: Yeah, I think you're so well spoken about and it's really neat to hear kind of how much thought you've put into it and all these different elements at play.

And with that kind of train of thought, I think that's a good time to kind of take a break from these bigger questions we're talking about. And with this podcast, we always do kind of a lighter question. We call it our fun question that we ask.

Ranger Grace: So that question is, what is your favorite food? Kyle Awelagte: Oh, okay. I like cherry wood smoked barbecue ribs.

That's what I like with potato salad and roasted corn and green chili and tortillas. That's like my favorite thing ever. But I also like just chicken alfredo.

So I like everything honestly. I like desserts. I ain't even gonna lie.

Kyle Awelagte: I ate a cake. Ranger Grace: I mean, as a runner, yeah, it's pretty important to you. Kyle Awelagte: Yeah, they say that, but I just be eating anything honestly.

Ranger Grace: Well, they both sound like good meals. On that note, like as a runner, we had another runner on the podcast and I had been curious with her of like, running can be really demanding and can be pretty hard on the body. So like, do you do to take care of yourself as a runner?

Kyle Awelagte: Physically, I do what any other runner does is stretch because you really need to like let your, you need to really rest your body and just let your blood flow. So that being like sleeping more than eight hours, taking electrolytes, being able to stretch, roll out, going to trainers, have them work with you. But on the mental side, I like to pray before my runs and after and just thank like my ancestors and my gods for the gifts they give me and the new day that and just being thankful that I'm able to run because I know there's not a lot of people who can do the things I do.

Kyle Awelagte: And I'm really appreciative of what's been given to me. And my hard work that I've built over the years and just being able to really enjoy it and having just using prayer as a way to mentally take care of myself and having my family too, is I say a good recovery method to just having their good energy. So in physical and mental and spiritual, it's how I take care of myself.

Ranger Grace: Yeah, you earlier, this reminded me you mentioned how with your fetish carving, it can kind of be a space you go to, to kind of get away from other things. Does running feel like that too, just from the process you just talked about of how you? Kyle Awelagte: Yeah, so running, and I say any other sports you have so much passion in can be so demanding.

And that can like really mess like with your mental and even your physical. So being able to have like different outlets and the things you love to do, like just say, like spending time or creating art, listening to music, taking walks or enjoying nature is something that every person should do just for their well-being. And having that takes the workload off of the thing you may find hard, like your passion, because our passions are, they're going to be hard at points, and sometimes you're going to enjoy them.

Kyle Awelagte: But having those different outlets is what makes you miss it again, and being able to take it on for another day. Ranger Grace: Would you say, because it sounds like, you know, you've mentioned challenges with running, and I suppose you could find challenges in carving as well, like clipping a finger. So you touched on that a little bit, but how do you, what advice would you give to overcome challenges?

Kyle Awelagte: I say just take it day by day and have, have faith in yourself that you'll be able to overcome those challenges, and that you have people or friends or family that you can depend on to take that workload off of your, weight off your shoulders, and just go and, just go into the next day knowing that it's a new opportunity for growth, rather than dwelling on it for like a whole week or a whole month. Just take that appreciation that, yeah, okay, I failed.

Kyle Awelagte: Let's try again tomorrow and see if I can do something better and overcome that challenge. And it's, it's good to fail because you learn from those moments, and you adapt because that's who we are as a people. You, you adapt to overcome challenges naturally, and so just take it day by day.

Kyle Awelagte: Don't stress about long-term, just put yourself in the now and live in the moment.

Ranger Grace: Yeah, pushing forward.

Kyle Awelagte: Yeah.

Ranger Grace: Community. You mentioned like the importance of failing. We have a big phrase with our staff of failing forward and how that can be really important to just keep moving past things and learning from them.

Ranger Grace: And as the sun is starting to set, before we open up to audience questions, is there anything else that you really want to leave the audience with? Like anything important you want them to know? Just be thankful that you're here on this earth today experiencing the things you are.

Kyle Awelagte: Enjoy nature, enjoy what you can see, enjoy what you can hear, enjoy what you can feel, enjoy what you can eat, because I love eating. And just live in the present of today and know that everything happens for a reason.

Kyle Awelagte: So, keep being creative, keep being cool, keep being friendly, keep being loving, and yeah, that's what I'm going to leave you guys with.

Ranger Grace: I think those are good words to leave people with. So now I kind of turn to you guys in the audience. Is there anything you'd like to ask Kyle about? Any questions?

Audience Member: Hi, I'd like to know what type of footwear you prefer to run in?

Kyle Awelagte: Okay, so, um, I like to be comfortable in my runs, and I love New Balance. I think New Balance has, like, really squishy foam in it, and I think that, like, takes the ease off of, like, knee pain and, like, your bones and your muscles.

Kyle Awelagte: So having that New Balance shoe, I think, is, like, the best thing ever. But race-wise, I like to race in Nike. I'm a Nike guy.

Audience Member: What's your favorite type of stone to carve on?

Kyle Awelagte: Oh, okay, um, I love sandstone, just, um, because it's really, really soft, and that's good, but what makes it hard is you have to be, like, really delicate with it, or you'll shave everything off. And the only reason I love it is because when you get it wet, it smells like it rained outside, so you can smell, like, that earthy, like, um, smell. So that's the, that's my favorite stone, sandstone.

Audience Member: Do you plan on running down the canyon or from rim to rim one day?

Kyle Awelagte: Rim to rim one day, that's, how long is that, like, 24 miles? Almost a marathon. Is that a marathon? I plan on doing it. I'm, I'm, like, I've run in the mountains, like, back home, so I'm slowly training for it, but it's going to happen. It's going to happen one day, and we'll record it.

Audience Member: How do you run on sand?

Kyle Awelagte: How do I run on sand? So what I like to do is, what my coach taught me was, um, you want to take, like, baby steps and pump your arms, and what I like to do in that moment when, you know, you're struggling and you feel like, oh my god, this sand really is a killer, I, I like to focus on my breathing and take two deep breaths and just, like, remind myself that, um, I'm stronger than, um, this sand and I'm capable of doing, doing it. So it's a physical and mental thing.

Kyle Awelagte: So physically, I like to go on my toes and lean forward and use my arms, but use baby steps, and mentally, I like to tell myself, um, that I'm capable of doing this, even though it's hard. Always just have a good mindset and you'll get through things, yeah.

Audience Member: Um, throughout your running career, what is one of your most memorable races?

Kyle Awelagte: Okay, I think the most memorable race was, it was, I think it always had to be the Zuni invite, um, where I'm doing my run at, so Dowa Yalanne. I think just having, like, the community there, like, everyone comes out for that, and I think that's, like, the coolest thing ever, because you see, like, Zuni, Zuni runners that haven't ran or anything, you know, you don't get to really see them, and the community finally, like, come out to, like, see you run, and the other runners.

Kyle Awelagte: Like, other Native American runners just run and run up our, run their sacred mountain, so I think just that, having, like, the community and your loved ones and even having, like, your ancestors there watching down on you, um, I think that has to be, like, the most memorable one that I've enjoyed so far, yeah.

Ranger Grace: Alright, well, Kyle, thank you so much for coming out here and being a part of the podcast.

Kyle Awelagte: Thank you. I want to thank everyone for just sitting patiently and listening. Um, safe travels back to wherever you come from, and, uh, blessings towards you guys, so thank you guys.

Kyle Awelagte: Elahkwa.

Ranger Jonah: Grand Canyon Speaks is a program hosted by Grand Canyon National Park and the Grand Canyon Conservancy. A special thanks to Aaron White for the theme music.

Ranger Jonah: This recording reflects the personal lived experiences of tribal members and do not encompass the views of their tribal nation or that of the National Park. To learn more about Grand Canyon First Voices, visit www.nps.gov/grca. Here at Grand Canyon National Park, we are on the ancestral homelands of the 11 associated tribes of the Grand Canyon, these being the Havasupai Tribe, the Hualapai Tribe, the Navajo Nation, the Hopi Tribe, the Pueblo of Zuni, the Yavapai Apache Nation, the Kaibab Band of Paiute Indians, the Las Vegas Paiute Tribe, the Moapa Band of Paiutes, the Paiute Indian Tribe of Utah, and the San Juan Southern Paiute Tribe.

This episode features Jason Amador, a member of the Colorado River Indian Tribes. ALCC Intern, Meranden, interviews Jason about his basketball career filled with highs and lows. Making his first appearance at March Madness was only one of the many accomplishments of his journey. With these experiences, he explains how he shares his story with native youth to provide them with motivation to go after their dreams, just like he did.

---

TRANSCRIPT:

---

[Jason Amador]

Still the fact that, you know, playing in front of 12,000, 14,000 people, all the media coverage, seeing all the celebrities walk by, seeing, you know, where you came from at NEI, a school you never heard about. To now, Grand Canyon [University] playing against Maryland, and, you know, we're in the same venue spot as Oregon, U of A, Colorado State, and all these big time schools. It was just such an awesome and amazing season looking back at it now.

[Lakin]

Hello and welcome back to Grand Canyon Speaks. This is Lakin.

[Dan]

And I'm Ranger Dan.

[Lakin]

This episode features Jason Amador, a member of the Colorado River Indian Tribe, who is an athlete at Grand Canyon University.

[Dan]

He takes us through his basketball journey, where he faced injuries, the shutting down of his college, and family hardships.

[Lakin]

Through these difficulties, he was reminded by many support systems of how determination and discipline will strengthen him to better days.

[Dan]

Jason shares the triumphs of his career, going from his small hometown to D1 basketball, and how he uses his story to inspire Native youth of different tribal communities.

[Lakin]

And here is Jason Amador.

[Jason Amador]

Before I introduce myself, I just want to say thank you to the Grand Canyon National Park and the staff and Meranden for allowing me to come out here and speak to you guys today. So my name is Jason Amador. I'm a member of the Colorado River Indian Tribes, which is located in Parker, Arizona.

It is the western side of Arizona, close to Lake Havasu. On my mom's side, I'm Navajo. My clans are Coyotes Pass Clan and Two Came to the Water.

And on my dad's side, I'm Mojave and Quechan. I went to Parker High School, where I graduated. And then from there, I got a scholarship to go play basketball at the University of St. Catherine, which is an NEI school located in San Marcos, California, which is San Diego County. And from there, I got a chance to go play over at Grand Canyon, where now I'm studying for my Master of Science in Leadership.

[Meranden]

Awesome. Okay, and a quick question. Have you been to the Grand Canyon before?

[Jason Amador]

I have been to the Grand Canyon before when I was young with my family and a couple years ago. And it feels like every time when I visit the Grand Canyon, it looks like a perfect picture. For me, I'm not too fond of heights, so I kind of stay away from the rim.

But every time I come, it's just super beautiful, and it just always takes my breath away when I look at it.

[Meranden]

We're really interested in just understanding how you got into basketball and what really kicked off your basketball journey.

[Jason Amador]

So for me, growing up, I had a best friend. His name was Damian, and I consider him a brother now. So when I was in kindergarten, it was a funny story.

I had no friends the first day, and I remember Damian was sitting on the bench outside of our class. I didn't know him at the time. I sat on the bench with him, waiting for class to start, and he had a Pop-Tart.

And any other Pop-Tart comes with two pieces, so he gave me one, I gave him one. And that's kind of how our friendship started. So from there, like any other brother, you want to be close with them and spend time with them.

So for me, I was always into football, but he loved basketball so much, he got me into basketball. So we created a local reservation team called the Arizona Outlaws, and Damian's mom and my dad actually worked together at the Special Diabetes Project on a reservation. So we made an AAU team called the Arizona Outlaws, and we played in all these local tournaments all over.

And me and Damian every day always were brothers. We pushed each other every day. We worked out, played basketball all the time, spent the night at each other's houses, did Halloween together.

We did everything together. But unfortunately, the day before sixth grade starts, me and my dad were out in Vegas getting hats made for the whole team to surprise them. And I remember sitting in the store, and I remember my dad gets a phone call, goes outside, and I'd never seen him act this way.

So I was kind of surprised and kind of like, what's happening? So I just remember he told me, came to the side and said, hey, Damian and his family, they got in a car accident. And unfortunately, they didn't make it.

So for me, from that moment and that day on, I knew I wasn't playing for myself no more. I was playing for something bigger than myself. And that's what made me and kicked off my journey to go do what I do now.

So for every day, whenever I wake up, that was something that instilled a spark in me. And for me, whenever we played a tournament from that day moving on, it rained. And for us in Native American culture, when it rains, it means something sacred.

It means they're kind of watching over you. And literally for like two, two and a half years, every time we had a tournament, it always rained. And for me, that's something that always kicked off my basketball journey.

And that's where it got me in today. And just kind of knowing that he's up there and his family and he's watching over me. And I know he's proud of me.

And I'm trying to do my best to make him proud.

[Meranden]

Yeah. Wow. That's a really great way to keep you inspired.

You know, and I know that this started really young and you made your way to high school. And how did you go? How did your basketball journey continue after high school?

[Jason Amador]

Yeah. So after high school, you know, growing up in Parker High School, I'm pretty sure a lot of you guys haven't heard of Parker. So knowing that when I was going into my sophomore, junior and senior seasons, I wasn't getting recruited a lot.

I had all these accolades. I was Player of the Year, Offensive Player of the Year, First Team All-State. I was a McDonald's All-American nominee.

I had all these thousand points, club, had all these accolades, first team, everything. I wasn't getting looked at. No schools were reaching out to me.

And looking back at it now, what I know now is that a lot of these recruiters and a lot of these college coaches, they don't go out to the reservations to seek and recruit kids. They go to the big cities like Phoenix, Las Vegas, California, all these big-time cities. So for me, going into it, I was like, why am I not being recruited?

And I just remember going into my senior season, reaching out to all these schools, sending out my tapes and everything like that. I got reached out to by a coach, Kevin Williamson, at a D2 camp called Cal State San Marcos in San Diego County. This camp was the day after my graduation from high school.

And this was my last chance to go play college basketball. So we woke up at 4 in the morning, took off to the camp, drove there. And getting there, I always think about it, too, because it's always crazy to look back and think about the journey along the way.

And I know when I got there, I had my best performance. I knew that this was my last chance to go try to make the college basketball team, pursue my dream. This was my last chance.

Going through all the drills, I couldn't miss a single shot. My family came up to me, like, have you missed? I'm like, I have not missed, you know, going off screens, you know, like dunking the basketball, like everything like that.

I was doing everything I could to stand out. And I remember it came down to the All-Star game. A lot of these college coaches and camps host an All-Star game where the seniors and juniors play against each other, and they see who they want to recruit, and the freshmen and the sophomores.

And I remember when it was time to get picked, I was going into it. And I remember the coach looked at me, and he put me with the freshmen and the sophomores. And for me in that moment, it was really, like, looked upon like that was the first time I ever had my confidence taken away from me, because I worked so hard.

I had all these accolades. I knew I was a good basketball player. But for a coach to look at me and to say, hey, you're going to be the freshmen and the sophomores, I remember my family saying, like, yeah, go out there, you know, make sure you kill it.

But for me in that moment, it was a lot of hard. It was really hard for me to do that, because that was the first time I ever had anything taken away from me like that. So I just remember, like, I didn't want to, like, play my hardest.

I was like, this is it. And then after the camp, I talked to the head coach, and he was like, yeah, like, we could try to make something work, enroll into school, and come to me on the first day, and we could see what we can do. So it didn't work out, and I remember I was in the parking lot.

The assistant coach that invited me out, he was walking away, and my dad told me, he was like, I did everything I could for you up to this point. You know, I can't talk for you anymore. Like, you're a grown man now.

Like, it's time for you to go speak up for yourself, and this is your dream. You have to go chase it. And for me, I was always a shy kid.

I never liked talking to people. I always shied away. So for me in that moment, I knew my dream was walking out the door.

So I chased after him, said everything I could in a minute, and I got his contact information. He actually knew a former player of mine that came out from Parker. His name was Vegas Davis, and we made that connection really well.

He ended up leaving Cal State San Marcos, and he became the head coach at the University of St. Catherine. And going into the summer, I remember getting a phone call from him, and he said, yeah, Jason, I want you to be my first recruit. So he gave me a scholarship, and that's where I ended up going after high school.

[Meranden]

Wow. So all the determination, all that work, it really paid off, right? Yeah.

And then, like, after that, you were able to go to something greater, like going from that to now GCU. What made you choose GCU?

[Jason Amador]

So what made me go to GCU, I wish I could say, you know, it was as simple as they reached out to me. They got my film. They reached out to my coach, and it was simple as that.

They wanted me. It was not the case. So I ended up going to the University of St. Catherine, which was an NEI school, and it was the smallest Orthodox Christianity school in the country. And when you think of university, you think of, like, tens of thousands of students, all these big resources, everything. So I ended up going there. It was about 150 kids, and they were 90 to 95 percent all athletes.

It was an all-athlete school. So when I went there, it was literally like a two-story building when I first got there. So going there, you know, I was just so grateful for the opportunity to go play another four years.

So I had a great time doing that. Played against a lot of great D1 schools, San Diego State, Long Beach State, Utah State, Cal State Fullerton, Arizona State. But along the way, I noticed I had some pain in my hips.

So at the age of 20, after my first year of college basketball, everyone was telling me, oh, like, you probably got tight hips, keep stretching. So I kept doing that. I kept playing through it.

And I got to a point where I noticed I couldn't play defense no more. I couldn't sit in the car for too long. Like, it just started hurting.

So finally, I go get an MRI, and they tell me that I need double hip surgery and that all my ligaments, most of them, have been torn. So for me, I had to get double hip surgery at the age of 20. And trust me, that's not any way how you want to spend your summer is when you get double hip surgery, you're in a bed for two months.

You can't walk. You're in a wheelchair having to have your parents, you know, wheel you around the house and help you shower and help you go to the bathroom. I won't go too far into that because I don't want to think about that anymore.

But it was just a lot of adversity along the way. We don't have the resources as the big schools, you know, like our coach had a saying, and it was FIO. It was figure it out.

And that came to, like, rooming, being cramped in, like, little small vans, going to away games, only getting one meal a day. So going into that, you know, after my surgery, I was out for a year and a half. A year and a half is a long time in college basketball.

It's like dog years. Like, you have a certain clock when it comes to basketball and college basketball. So for me, I was out for a year and a half.

The first day I came back, I was rushing to get back. I was telling the doctors, like, I'm good. My hips are good.

Like, I'm ready to play. So the first day I come back and the first practice, literally five minutes into our first drill, we're doing a post-up drill. And I remember I'm guarding my defender, and I had my hand on his back.

As soon as I moved to put my hand away, he backed up into my hand, and I ended up breaking my finger. So after a year and a half of being out, first day I come back, I break my finger. So now I'm out, like, two more months.

And for me in that moment, it's like I developed, like, a why me attitude. Like, why did this happen to me? Like, why do I have to go through all this stuff?

And later I learned, like, God will humble you before he elevates you. And these are all tests along the way to make sure that you're capable and strong for it. So going into it, I go into my senior season.

You know, I play. I had a great season. I had my career high on senior night.

And a month before graduation, I knew I wanted to play. I had an extra grad year. I wanted to get my master's and play another year.

I remember a month before graduation, I'm working on my senior thesis, and I get an e-mail from the school, and it's from the president of the school. And it says the University of St. Catharines has shut down effective immediately. And I'm looking at that.

It looks like spam. Spam e-mail. So then all of a sudden my phone starts blowing up, and I look at my phone, my coaches.

It's my teammates. It's my classmates. And I'm looking at it, and literally it's this e-mail right here, and that's how I found out my school shut down.

Literally the grades were posted the same day. And I'm looking at it like, I've got to find a new school to play at. And I'm like, this doesn't seem real.

Like, how did your school just shut down? So at that point, I'm wondering, like, if I'm going to get my credits, if I'm going to get my diploma. Like, what's going to happen to all the guys?

Like, all my coaches, everyone's got to find a new school, a new home to play at. So going into it, I had to find a new home. And for me, I reached out to a lot of schools.

I had a dream of playing Division I. And for me, I was fortunate enough to reach out to all these schools. And looking back on it now, it's pretty cool.

As a kid from a reservation, talking to schools like San Diego State, Long Beach State, Washington State. GCU, you know, it didn't really cross my mind. But looking back at it, I knew I wanted to play in front of my family.

And the year before GCU, I spoke to Bryce Drew, who's the head coach at a summer camp. And a fast-forward a year later, you know, my head coach has his number. We reach out.

Nothing comes back yet. All the e-mails I sent to all the assistant coaches, the athletic trainer, everyone at GCU, it's not working. There's no response coming to it.

So in my head, I knew I was going to try to go play at San Diego State. Going into the summer, it's crunch time. I got to choose a school.

So I send out a last-minute e-mail to Jamie Boggs, who is the athletic director at GCU. And when you look up e-mails at GCU, like on the staff website, they don't have them. The higher you go up, they don't have the e-mails.

So I literally guessed her e-mail, and I sent out an e-mail as a last resort. The next day, I look over my phone, and she responds. And she's from San Diego, and she heard about my school's closure.

So she got me in contact with Coach Drew and Coach Shaw over at GCU. And from there, you know, I was able to go out there, do a visit, see some of the guys, meet the coaches. And fast-forward a couple weeks later, didn't hear nothing from them.

And I'm out coaching at a high school tournament in Phoenix. I get a call from Coach Shaw, brings me into his office, and he said, you know, we heard nothing but great things about you, and we'd love to have you, and welcome to GCU men's basketball. So that's why I chose GCU.

[Meranden]

Wow. That's a long process. I think, everyone, we should give him a hand for, like, that.

That's insane. Yeah, you've come a long way. That's exactly what we need to hear is, like, these people like you, they don't get that kind of recognition.

They don't know these kind of pathways that our indigenous athletes are going through. And, like you mentioned, not a lot of recruiters or people like that go to the reservation for this kind of talent, and it's there. So, yeah, you went from res to getting, unfortunately, those injuries to your school shutting down to now at GCU to having a very successful season.

So, you know, with Grand Canyon University, I've just seen how they've excelled in the championships that they won over the past few years and then winning again this year. I'm just curious of, with this very exciting season that you had with them, what are some of the highlights that you've had while being at Grand Canyon University?

[Jason Amador]

So some of the highlights I had is, one, I've seen it from NEI to D1 is the resources. I mean, the facilities of a 24-7 access to the gym. We have a chef that makes food after every practice, every game.

So, like, having a limited food, being able to go in there and get any Gatorade, protein drink, smoothie. You know, one day it could be, like, spaghetti, chicken parm, chicken alfredo, spaghetti meatballs. Like, this was so surreal.

I've never had this at my old school. So just that and just the amount of fans and, you know, the amount of love that we get, that's one of the highlights I had. Just, you know, going, transitioning from NEI to D1.

But moving forward into this season, I actually got baptized by Coach Shaw. He's the one that actually kind of recruited me. And for me, the reason I got baptized is just a blessing in the journey that it took for me to get here.

It made me realize of how blessed and, you know, how God's always been by my side. I was warming up before a game. Kids came from spiraling in, filling up the student section.

And I'm sitting there, and I'm like, you know, it hit me. Like, I wanted to dedicate and, you know, devote my life to Christ. So I told Coach Shaw before warm-ups.

And the next day, we brought the team out, and I got baptized in the pool. And it was such a surreal feeling, and I'm glad my brothers got to witness. And it was such an awesome moment.

Anytime I win in the game, they always chant it for me. The Havocs is our student section. So imagine you have an arena of 7,000 people chanting, like, we want Jason.

So for me, like, that was such a surreal feeling. You know, I love them for that. And we have an amazing student section.

We have amazing fans. You know, we have amazing coaching staff and an amazing team with it. So I remember this particular shot right here was against Utah Valley, and they were number one in our conference.

And that game was special to me because my family came down all the way from Gallup and Navajo Nation and had a lot of friends come down. And just seeing them in the stands when I made the three, you know, they were all jumping up and down, so excited. So just being able to see that, my family in the stands, you know, celebrating and all the sacrifice they did for me and all the love and support they've shown over me, it just made it, like, worthwhile.

And just seeing them jump up and down, that's what I do it for. And then we actually won the WAC conference, and that was probably the most amazing feeling. You know, we were second in our conference, and we played Utah Valley in the championship in Las Vegas at the New Orleans Casino.

And I just remember the feeling of, you know, just the confetti dropping down, all the cameras, all the media came up, and it was just such an awesome feeling being able to cut down a net and being able to get a ring and just knowing that you're going to have a banner up in the GC arena for life. And that's something that I loved. And from there, you know, we got a chance to go play in the March Madness tournament.

And that was such an amazing, you know, amazing time. You know, the 64 teams, the best teams all in college basketball, being able to go out there. We played against Maryland over in Seattle, Washington.

Unfortunately, we didn't come out with the outcome that we wanted. But just still the fact that, you know, playing in front of 12,000, 14,000 people, all the media coverage, seeing all the celebrities walk by, seeing, you know, where you came from at NEI, a school you never heard about. So now Grand Canyon playing against Maryland, and, you know, we're in the same venue spot as Oregon, U of A, Colorado State, and all these big-time schools.

It was just such an awesome and amazing season looking back at it now.

[Meranden]

Yeah, that's crazy. Once again, I'm, like, shocked at everything that's been going on. And, you know, like with the celebrations and everything that's going on at GCU, it's amazing.

The support is there. Like, you know, that student section to the coaches, to everyone that's in the stands. You are a really big inspiration to the tribal communities, more specifically the youth.

Your basketball journey has come a really long way, and you're an inspiration to the community. What does it mean to you, and how has that overwhelming support made you feel?

[Jason Amador]

It means everything to me. Just seeing the youth and just seeing how much they support you, I just remember looking at them like I was in your shoes, and that was me growing up. I had dreams.

I wanted to play college basketball. I wanted to play professionally. So, for me, it just means the absolute world to me, you know, the amount of support, the amount of love, you know, that they've given me.

And this photo right here, they actually came out to one of my games, and they had the best time. The Havocs, the student section, were all dancing with them. They were jumping up and down.

They were singing songs, you know. They showed a lot of love. And after the game, they all came up to me and were giving me hugs and just telling me how proud of me they were, you know.

And it was just an awesome feeling, you know, just knowing that that was once me in their shoes, and I wanted to look up to someone, you know. But they've shown me the most amount of love and support, and I couldn't thank them enough for it.

[Meranden]

Yeah, that's amazing. And, you know, that representation is there. And personally, I don't see a lot of that indigenous representation, especially in the D1 community and, like, those kind of higher-ups.

Have you played against any other indigenous players or seen any indigenous representation, you know, with GCU or any college experience or games you've been in?

[Jason Amador]

Yeah. So at the NEI level, I played against SAGU, which is an American Indian college. So I played against them.

But at the D1 level, I can't say that I've played against anyone at the D1 level. But I know there's a lot of great athletes, a lot of great coaches, and, you know, at the Division I NCAA level, Houston just played Florida in a national championship. The head coach for Houston, he's Lumbee.

He's Native American, so seeing him and seeing how far he took his team to the national championship was amazing. Trayson Eagle Staff, he plays over at North Dakota, I believe. He's, like, going off and doing amazing things.

But, you know, there's a lot of great athletes, you know, Kyrie Irving, Lindy Waters, Marjan, there's a lot of great athletes out there. And it's just amazing to see.

[Meranden]

Yeah, that representation is very small, but those people who are there make a huge impact, like yourself. It's been a lot right here, like, rollercoaster, just hearing everything that you've done and where you've gotten to right now. Where do you see your basketball journey going from this point on?

[Jason Amador]

So I played my graduate year. My last year, I had a senior night. And for me, that was an awesome, awesome game.

They actually made a new rule where it's a non-NCAA rule where if you play at a non-NCAA institute, you get a year back. So my coach and coaching staff informed me that I have an extra year back. So hopefully I get to go back and play at GCU this upcoming season as we go into the Mountain West Conference.

But after, you know, I plan on getting into coaching. But also, too, like, I just love giving back to communities. I love doing the speaking engagements.

And it's just such an awesome feeling just to, you know, to speak to the youth and just to help motivate them and help push them in a way that they can achieve their dreams. So I know definitely I want to stay in the coaching world, whether that's actually in basketball or whether that's strength conditioning or if I want to play professionally after my collegiate season. Wow.

[Meranden]

Well, we wish you well on that journey. And, you know, just hearing from what you've been doing, we see a really bright future for you. And, you know, like you mentioned again, your tribal communities and how important that means to you.

You're part of the Colorado River Indian Tribes. And along with your tribal community and the 11 tribes here, the Grand Canyon means a lot to us. And you are, once again, it's in the title of your tribal community, the Colorado River.

What importance does the Colorado River have to yourself and your tribal community?

[Jason Amador]

Yeah, it means a lot to us. It means everything to us. You know, we believe the water is sacred.

It's a healing source for us. And, you know, the Grand Canyon, just looking at it now, like it's just something that you don't really think too much about. But when you come visit, it's like, why am I not here more often?

You know, it takes your breath away. It's a place of healing. And for me, you know, it means everything to me.

It takes my breath away, and I just love it.

[Meranden]

Awesome. So we have a little fun question that we like to ask for our podcast here. If you were to have any indigenous food right now, what would it be?

[Jason Amador]

That's a good question. So for me, like in the season, I can't really have anything like that. So now that I'm in the off season, I am actually craving a Navajo burger.

I just love it. I don't know what it is. It's the fried bread with the burger patty in between.

It's the best thing in the world. If you haven't tried it, I highly recommend for you guys to go try it. It's the most amazing thing.

[Meranden]

Is there a specific place you get yours?

[Jason Amador]

I just go to Pow Wows, and whenever I see it. The last one I had was over in Morongo. And it was from, I believe, somewhere up in Navajo Nation.

And it was the best thing ever. I had like three of them. It was amazing.

[Meranden]

Thank you so much for getting right here where we are and hearing so much about your journey. As we are wrapping up here, is there anything that you would like to leave the audience with?

[Jason Amador]

I would always say just dream big. And for me, what I always tell kids and what I always tell people is that every person in this room has their own journey in life. A lot of you guys are going to have different roads of high points of adversity, high points of success.

Each and every one of you guys is different. One of the biggest things that I could always say is just to never give up. Keep going.

And God will humble you before he elevates you. And I always go back to a quote, John 13, 7. You do not realize now what I am doing, but later you will understand.

And for me, I always take that a lot because I always go through stuff in my life where I'm like, why does this have to happen? Why do I have to go through this? And later on, I realize it had to happen for me in order for me to achieve the next part of my life.

So I would always say to never give up, keep going, and chase your dreams. Because for me, I was a kid in the stands from a small reservation. Now I'm a six-foot guard playing at Grand Canyon.

And at any Division I level, all the guards are 6'3", 6'4", 6'5". I have a teammate, his name is Dennis Evans, and he is 7'3". So for me, you can achieve anything you want.

Don't let anyone tell you anything different, whether you want to play in sports, academics, doctor, lawyer, whatever the case may be. You can achieve anything you want. But just know it comes with dedication and sacrifice and everything in between.

To get what you want, anything worthwhile in this life that you want is not going to be easy. And I won't be the last person to tell you that. Just know that there's going to be high points and low points in life.

And just to keep your head on straight and just to never give up.

[Meranden]

Good. A round of applause right now. Thank you guys so much.

Thank you, Jason. So we have a little section right here at the end if anyone has any questions.

[Audience Member]

Your story was very inspirational, amazing to hear. How do we have 100 more of you?

[Jason Amador]

Thank you for that. That's the million-dollar question. I just feel like in life you have to find something that motivates you and that makes you want to do what you want to do at the level you want to do it.

And for me, unfortunately, losing my brother early on, that kind of instilled a spark in for me. And that's something I use every single day when I'm on the court, off the court, trying to be a better son, be a better student, be a better teammate, be a better friend, be a better person. That's the question for everyone.

Just find ways to motivate you to help you get to where you want to be.

[Audience Member]

Go Lopes!

[Jason Amador]

Yeah, go Lopes, go Lopes, yep.

[Audience Member]

Who did you look up to?

[Jason Amador]

Who did I look up to? That is a great question. Growing up, I would look up to Damien.

He inspired me a lot. But now that I look back at it, I look up to my dad. He did so much for me, and he was the first person to believe in me and believe in my dreams.

He took me from my reservation, he took me to all these camps, the Pangos All-American Camp, he took me to the Michael Jordan Camp, he took me to all these tournaments in Phoenix, Vegas, Oklahoma, California. He gave up all of his time, all of his money, all of his energy, and best believe, he lets me know every single day that he could have been on a weekend, going on a vacation, buying a new truck or whatever. Just looking back at it, he was always in my corner.

Anytime I had a bad game, anytime I went through something in life, I knew I could always call him. He is my biggest fan. Just looking back on it, he's someone that I look up to every single day.

I hope I made him proud, and he's the best father I could have asked for.

[Audience Member]

I've heard you mention coaching before. I was wondering if you had any teams in mind. Would you go to Navajo Nation, Flagstaff?

Where would you want to coach?

[Jason Amador]

I definitely want to stay. I've done high school tournaments, I've done local rez tournaments. I did NABI, I did the national Native American tournaments, all of those.

But for me, just seeing the level of play at the Division I level, at the collegiate level, I love being around those type of people. They just have such a work ethic about them. My teammates, my coaching staff, they're always working, they're always recruiting, always trying to find ways to improve their game and their coaching game.

I definitely want to stay in that realm. And just kind of being an outlet, and just kind of having an outlet to speak, and to represent Native American culture at the highest level. I would definitely stay either at the collegiate level or professional.

Great question, though.

[Audience Member]

When were you at your lowest points, what made you keep going?

[Jason Amador]

What made me keep going, that is an absolutely amazing question. So in those moments of adversity, in those moments when you feel like nothing could come good out of the situation, just knowing that God has a plan for everyone, and for me that really kind of instilled in me that he's always going to be there for me when I fall, my high and low points in life, and just my family. But also, too, just my brother Damien.

I just knew I wasn't playing for myself no more, I was playing for him. And he gave me signs that he was watching over me, and his family too. I just knew my journey ahead was all for him.

So in those moments of adversity, just knowing that God was there, and I had people, my ancestors looking over me, watching over me, and I had a strong support system that really helped me get through all those low points in my life. But that was an amazing question. Thank you.

[Dan]

I'm getting my workout.

[Audience Member]

Did you have a pump-up song before every game? Like something to pump you up?

[Jason Amador]

That is a great question. So before every game, it's always like there's a stigma for athletes to have pump-up songs, rap, rock, whatever the case may be, to pump you up. For me, it was always just clearing my head, just turning off the lights, taking a pregame nap, and just kind of envisioning what was going to happen before the game.

That kind of really got me psyched. But I can't sit here and lie. There's a lot of great rappers that I listened to before the game.

This year, our team loved Boss Man D-Lo. That was like everyone loves Boss Man D-Lo. We play on the speaker and we walk out before the tunnel.

I would say it's definitely rap. Rap was like the one thing that really pumped me up before games.

[Audience Member]

What would you consider your highest moment, your highest point so far?

[Jason Amador]

My highest point, you know, there's a lot of stuff I could say. Going to March Madness, scoring my first point at the Division I level, going from NAI to D1. But I would probably say the highest point of my life was just being baptized and just dedicating and serving my life to Christ.

That was a moment in my life where I knew I could, out of all the things that I've achieved in life, that it wouldn't be possible if it wasn't for Him. Just being baptized and having my teammates out there, my brothers, my coach baptize me, it was such a surreal and amazing feeling for me. That's something I'll never forget.

So without God, for Him, I wouldn't be where I am today. So that was definitely probably the highest point in my life.

[Meranden]

Thank you, Dan, for running around.

[Jason Amador]

Thank you, Dan.

[Meranden]

We'll have one more round of applause.

Thank you so much, Jason, for being here today. Jason has something if you want to talk about it.

[Jason Amador]

Yeah, before we end off, I just want to say thank you to Grand Canyon National Park and the staff and Meranden for allowing me to come out here to speak to you guys. Thank you for you guys who stayed and asked questions. You guys are awesome, and I really appreciate you guys listening in on my journey.

But, yeah, I actually have autographs, cards. I would love it if you guys could take one. Just thank you to you guys for allowing me to come and speak to you guys here today.

Thank you.

[Ranger Jonah]

Grand Canyon Speaks is a program hosted by Grand Canyon National Park and the Grand Canyon Conservancy. A special thanks to Aaron White for the theme music. This recording reflects the personal, lived experiences of Tribal members and do not encompass the views of their Tribal Nation or that of the National Park.

To learn more about Grand Canyon First Voices, visit www.nps.gov/GRCA. Here at Grand Canyon National Park, we are on the ancestral homelands of the 11 associated Tribes of the Grand Canyon, these being the Havasupai Tribe, the Hualapai Tribe, the Navajo Nation, the Hopi Tribe, the Pueblo of Zuni, the Yavapai Apache Nation, the Kaibab Band of Paiute Indians, the Las Vegas Paiute Tribe, the Moapa Band of Paiutes, the Paiute Indian Tribe of Utah, and the San Juan Southern Paiute Tribe.

In this episode, Ranger Eliana speaks with collegiate runner, Ali Upshaw, who is Diné from Fort Defiance on the Navajo reservation. She talks about how she started her athletic career with family who are also runners and made it to her dream college team through some intense training along the way. Through the hard work of it all, she describes how running keeps her grounded, accomplish big goals, and stay connected to her culture.

---

TRANSCRIPT:

---

[Ali Upshaw]

And so I used to see like all the girls, all the women that went through the program and ran at nationals wear that turquoise jersey. And so in high school, when I had found out that they had offered me a spot on the team, I just kept writing down that whole summer, I want to wear the turquoise jersey, I want to wear the turquoise jersey, because I wanted it so bad. And so that's how things really kicked off.

[Meranden]

Hello, everyone. Welcome to Grand Canyon Speaks. This is Meranden.

[Lakin]

And this is Lakin.

[Meranden]

We hope you have been enjoying season three so far. We were very fortunate to speak with so many amazing athletes over the summer.

[Lakin]

On that note, this episode is about Ali Upshaw. She is Diné and from Fort Defiance on the Navajo Reservation.

[Meranden]

She spoke with Ranger Eliana about how running has been in her family for generations and is very important to her culture.

[Lakin]

Allie describes the self-discipline of the sport and how her hard work has helped her run for her dream school and even breaking school records at Northern Arizona University.

[Meranden]

Thank you all for tuning in and enjoy this episode with Ali Upshaw.

[Ali Upshaw]

Hello, everybody. (Introduces self in Navajo) My name is Ali Upshaw. I am from Fort Defiance, Arizona, and I currently go to school at Northern Arizona University where I also run cross-country and track, and I am studying public health.

[Ranger Eliana]

Wonderful. I want to ask you, have you been to Grand Canyon before?

[Ali Upshaw]

I've been here a couple of times.

My first time I've ever been to the Grand Canyon was in high school. And my stepdad, he lives pretty close to here. I grew up like in Flagstaff pretty much his whole life.

So he was the first one to ever bring me to the Grand Canyon. So that was my first experience, but it took me kind of a while to get here. But I've been here a couple of times with people in the past.

And the nice thing about Northern Arizona University's cross-country team is that we usually have our preseason out here. So sometimes in like the week before school starts, our coaches, they'll take us here to go for a four-mile run. So we do it along the ridge.

And so we all kind of like have our little team bonding moment with the team and getting to know each other here at the Grand Canyon. And we usually like sit out on the sunset in the first week of our preseason. So that's what we do.

So I've been here twice with the team before, so I have some good memories with the canyon.

[Ranger Eliana]

Wow, that's so awesome. What does it feel like to run along the rim of the canyon?

[Ali Upshaw]

Oh, it's a little scary. You gotta really watch your footing with a lot of the trails here because it's so rocky. But it's fun. It's definitely a lot different feel than a regular run where you're just focusing on training.

You can really relax and just focus on the view and being with teammates. So it's really fun.

[Ranger Eliana]

That's so awesome. That sounds like a great team-building activity. Also just coming out here, just for reference for you guys, where Ali is from is pretty far from here.

So the Navajo Nation is about the size of West Virginia. Now she lives closer in Flagstaff, but yeah, this is like a really big area. So I'm so glad that she's here.

I want to ask you, so we spent some time talking earlier today here. What was it like coming back today?

[Ali Upshaw]

It was really fun. I spent the day with you mostly and with Park Ranger Kelli Jones. So I had a really great time with you guys today and especially talking about the canyon and her perspective of everything and the tower.

So it was really, really interesting to just listen and walk around and just be out here for a different purpose than running and just training-wise or just sightseeing-wise. It really brought a different perspective for me. So it was really fun.

[Ranger Eliana]

That's so awesome. I feel like the canyon is so different every time you visit and for me, every single time I look at it, it's different. So talking about running, I'm curious, how did you get started with running?

[Ali Upshaw]

Yeah. So I got started with running kind of like in early age. My whole family, they ran.

So funny enough, my grandpa, he used to coach my mom in high school. And then when I got to high school, my mom ended up coaching me in high school. So all of my uncles, my aunties, they were runners.

And my grandpa used to talk about my mom all the time, all the time about being so fast. So just being a very fast runner in general and how much she used to run and how much races she won. And she also ran at the state meet and she has her own state championship title individually.

And I remember he used to talk about it all the time. And it used to like, I think the very competitive side of me kind of came out in that moment where he would continuously talk about her all the time, all the time. And I used to think to myself, I want to, I want to beat my mom, I want to run faster than her.

And I kept thinking that in my head and every time he would bring it up, I would always think like, I want to be faster than her, I want to be like her. And I want to be faster than my uncles and my aunties. So I really started to get into running when my grandpa told me those stories.

And so that's kind of like how it all began.

[Ranger Eliana]

That's so cool that it's like a family thing. Your mom sounds really, really awesome from some of the things you told me earlier today. Is she like a role model for you?

Can you tell me about like any role models that you have in your life?

[Ali Upshaw]

Yeah. So my mom definitely plays a big role model influence in my life. Not only is she, was she a good runner in high school, but you know, she was really smart and educationally, she went on to get her doctorate degree in veterinary science and has her own nonprofit on the Navajo Nation and her own clinic where she works out of with large animals and small animals.

And so she's one of like the only full time veterinarians on the Navajo Nation, which is also something she does. And so I find a lot of influence from her, not only athletically, but academically as well. And, you know, my grandpa used to keep in mind a lot of like the role models that have come through Navajo Nation and, you know, the way runners, you know, big name runners, you know, names like Alvina Begay, Billy Mills, all native runners that have run at such a high level.

And they've always, I guess, shown me that, like, if they can do it, I can do it too. So they definitely played a strong role in allowing me to pursue my dreams.

[Ranger Eliana]

That's so awesome. I was wondering if you could tell me a little bit about the importance that running has for your tribal community or for your culture.

[Ali Upshaw]

Yeah, so there's a lot of cultural ties that our community has to running. And, you know, not only is it viewed and very popular in competition, but it's also present in a lot of like our cultural ceremonies. And, you know, growing up, I was always taught that running was a form of prayer and a blessing.

And my grandpa used to get me up really early in the morning because they say that when you're up that early and you see like, if you've ever been like up really, really early and you see like the the blue hue of like the horizon and that light, they say that's like when the holy people are out and that's when you should be running and that's when you should be just out there running in general. And so that was a big piece he used to tell me growing up. And so, you know, growing up in high school, that was a big thing for me was the cultural ties and not only, you know, viewing running as a sport, but also as a cultural value in my life that has kept me grounded.

[Ranger Eliana]

That's so cool. OK, so I want to get into a little bit of the nitty gritty here. So can you tell me how you kicked off your collegiate career in running?

[Ali Upshaw]

Yeah, so it it pretty much all started in high school. I think when I really started to compete more and get better, I started to realize, you know what, maybe I am pretty good at this and it can, you know, I think not until like my first college offer, I really started to realize that, hey, I can go to college to do this and I can continue to doing to do what I love. And I wanted to run Division One, you know, when I had first gotten into my junior year.

And I made that a priority for myself that I wanted I wanted to be there on the big stage early on. I didn't have, now that I think about it, I didn't have a whole lot of offers to begin with, but I had like a sliver of a chance to run for the University of New Mexico in Albuquerque. And so the coach gave me a partial scholarship to run out there, even though it wasn't a full one.

So but, you know, at the time, UNM was pretty good running school and they had just gotten like their first or one of like their national titles on the women's side in cross country. And they had big names like Wynnie Collotti and Edna Kurgat that all ran internationally and were really good runners. And I really wanted to be a part of that championship atmosphere, like so bad.

I remember when I first got the offer, I closed out every other offer that came my way. I was like, I'm going to the University of New Mexico. And if you've ever seen like UNM's national championship jerseys, they're different from like their regular season ones.

Cool thing about UNM is that they have very unique colored jerseys. They have the red and turquoise combo and not many schools actually have that colorway. So it ties back to like the Albuquerque culture, New Mexico culture and slivers of Native people and their cultural significance of just Albuquerque as a whole with the color of turquoise.

And so I used to see like all the girls, all the women that went through the program and ran at nationals wear that turquoise jersey. And so in high school, when I had found out that they had offered me a spot on the team, I just kept writing down that whole summer. I want to wear the turquoise jersey.

I want to wear the turquoise jersey because I wanted it so bad. And so that's how things really kicked off was like I had gotten a small offer from the University of New Mexico. And then when the coaching staff had changed like in 2023, everything kind of changed.

Everything took a shift. The coach that had recruited me had left. And so I was kind of left with a little bit of unknown.

And I decided that I wanted to go somewhere with a program still in place. And, you know, intact and still was like had a good foundation instead of one that was like shaky with the coaching change. So I decided to go to Northern Arizona University to run for Coach Mike Smith.

So that's where I've been for the last two years.

[Ranger Eliana]

That's so cool. I love that you say that you didn't get a ton of offers, but you got one that mattered the most. Yeah.

And then when you moved schools, like you continued to make the best of it. And it sounds like you've done a lot of really cool stuff at NAU, even outside of your running. Can you tell us a little bit about like your studies?

What did you major in?

[Ali Upshaw]

Yeah. So throughout my undergrad at the University of New Mexico, I was a community health education major. And then when I got to Northern Arizona University, I decided to enter into the public health program.

So that's what I've been doing for the last two years. And so I graduated with my bachelor's in public health. And so I'm currently enrolled into the master's of public health program at NAU.

And the nice thing about it is that there's a health promotion branch, so they have an emphasis in indigenous health. So that's one thing I'm going into this fall.

[Ranger Eliana]

That's so awesome. Okay. So you told me before about your capstone project, and I thought it was super, super cool.

So could you tell us a little bit more about that and how it connects with your running?

[Ali Upshaw]

Yeah. So this was a topic that came up earlier today, but with our capstone, we have a bunch of different organizations that come in and partner with NAU in creating a three-week intervention program that is in the health sector. So there's organizations like different local elementary schools, and the one that I was able to work with was Girls on the Run.

So I don't know if you're familiar with Girls on the Run, but it's a national nonprofit that works specifically with young girls in building self-esteem and confidence. So they have a bunch of different grades and age groups that they work with in their programs and really in the holistic side of running. And so it was actually a group of Native students that were able to design a three-week intervention program that centered on increasing Indigenous youth's presence within the program.

So one way we really did that was highlighting a Native student-athlete that runs for Coconino Community College, and her name is Amber Woody. And I actually went to high school with her, but we actually did a digital storytelling thread, and we did it primarily to kind of highlight her journey throughout her running career and more so trying to relate a lot of her stories and her values with a lot of the Native girls that do live in Northern Arizona. You know, there's a lot of Native population there, and we really wanted to try and get them involved with Girls on the Run and increase Indigenous presence within that way.

So that's the one thing we did. And then we also did an infographic and then a presentation at a local school. So it was really fun.

That was the highlight of my spring semester.

[Ranger Eliana]

That's so awesome. That's such an important goal to strive for, and you're doing such good work. Is working with Native youth like a passion of yours?

[Ali Upshaw]

Yeah, for sure. In the past, I've worked as a camp facilitator for Wings of America, and so that's been a really like a turning point for me in understanding what health strategies can look like for Native youth, especially in thinking about how it can be culturally relevant to them, to their cultural identity, because we have so many different prevention methods, strategies, but none that are really tailored towards Native people and considers a lot of like their backgrounds and their values. So that's one thing that I'm really have been interested in, in my studies is trying to figure out how to fit those programs into a more culturally relevant way for our people.

[Ranger Eliana]

Yeah, that's so cool. I love that you, you know, you're going to school and you're studying something that's so important, but you're tying it back to helping your community and helping young people succeed. I was wondering if you could tell me a little bit about like, you mentioned that you're going for your master's in public health as well.

What kind of like dream world, what would you want to do with that? Or like, what kind of impact would you like to have on the world with that?

[Ali Upshaw]

Wow, that's a good question. I think one thing for me, my dream world is that all Indigenous youth can have a high adequate access to resources to leverage their, I guess their pursuit of running collegiately or going to college or, you know, pursuing their athletic goals, because we center so much on education. And, you know, it would be such a dream to see a center that focuses on the athletic pursuits of Native kids because, you know, sports play so big of a role, like not in my life, but, you know, it's evident in the way that it provides a sense of belonging, identity, and gives a chance for Native kids to explore and connect back to their cultural identity, especially with running is so tied closely to our culture. And so, you know, sports play such a big role for Native youth. So that would be like my dream is like there's just a center, a health center that focuses on Native youth's athletic pursuit.

[Ranger Eliana]

Yes, that's so awesome. I love that. And I love that you want to help young people.

I feel like it's so, so beneficial if you can connect with your culture as well as with sports because they're so good for you, right? I want to ask you another like big question. If you could give any advice to Native youth when it comes to running or any pursuits they might want to go after, like what would you say to them?

[Ali Upshaw]

Yeah, I like that question too. Oh my gosh, I think I would just say that, you know, there's a lot of, I guess, doubt that comes with pursuing your athletic dreams, your educational dreams. But I guess the one thing that I would say that's really helped me in continuing my goals is that there's a calling and there's like there's a dream and there's a calling for a reason.

And that is literally like you have the capacity to go for that dream. And there's, you know, you're so capable of pursuing that. And so I think that's one thing I would like keep saying to young kids because there's very ambitious kids out there, there's very ambitious people that have a thought that lingers in their mind and it's there for a reason.

So I would just say that like it's there for a reason and that you should pursue it and you're so capable of doing it.

[Ranger Eliana]

Wow, that's so important to hear. I think a lot of a lot of people, not just kids, but everyone needs to hear that and feel empowered to reach their goals. I want to highlight one of your big wins here.

And that's the Big Sky Conference Championships from 2024. So I was wondering if you could just tell us like a little bit about that race, like what you won and how that impacted you or how that experience was for you.

[Ali Upshaw]

Yeah, so that was probably definitely one of my favorite races of the season. So if you don't know kind of like how race schedules work, so there's a there's a regular season and then you have your conference race and then your regional race and then the national race. So conference is kind of like the a lot of the people that are within the conference.

And so I run, so NAU is a part of like the Big Sky Conference. So, yeah, I don't know how much to say, but it was really fun because I've never, ever won a cross country race during my time in college. So that was actually my first ever like win in the college race like ever.

And it was really fun. It happened in my last my last season because college running is so hard. It's so tough.

There's so many, you know, it keeps getting better and better every year. So for me, it was a special moment because, you know, we had a race plan kind of like set in for that race. And so we my family got to be there to to see me have my first win.

So it was really fun. I really did enjoy that race.

[Ranger Eliana]

So, yeah, that's so awesome. That's a big win. And when you win something like that, does your team or your family or do you yourself treat yourself to anything?

Was there any like celebration?

[Ali Upshaw]

Some of those races, we some of them are just like very gritty. At the time it was in Idaho. So in the fall, so it was like kind of cold.

So the nice thing was that, you know, our team won and they let us go back to the hotel. They let us go back to the hotel. A lot of the times we don't get to go back to the hotel because it's same day trip back home to Flagstaff.

So we'll go straight from the race back to Flagstaff. And so you're sitting on the plane for like you're sitting down for a long time because we fly to Phoenix and then we have to drive back to Flagstaff. And we do that all after racing.

So, you know, we won that race and they let us go back to the hotel to take a shower and we left an hour after. But my grandma, she was really happy for me. She brought me like a bag of pinons.

So she's like, go ahead and take it with you. And I was like, OK, thank you. So that was what we did after.

[Ranger Eliana]

That's so nice. And can you for the audience, let us know what are pinons?

[Ali Upshaw]

Oh, so those are a lot of the trees that you see. Let's see. So there's a pinon tree there.

So a lot of the times, like around, would you say August, September is a lot of times when the pinon nuts, they'll fall down from the tree. And so the way you kind of like prepare that is a lot of people prepare it very differently. But my family, we use a lot of salt.

And we stir it like in a skillet. So we go pinon picking like during around that time. So yeah, they just fall from the pinon tree.

And a lot of times people will sell them. But yeah, they're pretty good. So you would eat them as like regular sunflower seeds.

[Ranger Eliana]

It sounds so good. And I love that we have the trees right here. If you guys could see them to anyone listening to this podcast, they're like our short little pine trees here.

But this actually segues perfectly into my next question. So when we do these interviews, we like to ask a fun question. So I want to ask you, what is your favorite native food?

[Ali Upshaw]

My favorite native food. Wow. So there's a lot.

But I would say my favorite is it's called Neeshjizhii stew. So a lot of times it's like steamed corn. And then you'll have like with mutton with like sheep's meat.

And so it's that's like my favorite meal like ever. So like stew, all the stews that my grandma makes. That's my favorite.

I'm not big on like, I mean, I do love a navajo taco here and there. But stew, that's yeah. Sometimes I go back like home and I'm like, Grandma, like I'm coming back home and she'll be like cooking away and I'll be like, okay, thanks.

[Ranger Eliana]

That sounds so good right now. And you mentioned sheep. I saw that you grew up on a ranch.

So can you tell us like about what it's like where you're from? Like growing up on a ranch?

[Ali Upshaw]

Yeah. So I yeah, I grew up on a small ranch. We have like sheep, cows, horses.

My sister's really involved with barrel racing. So she does that with rodeo. But yeah, growing up, I used to remember this.

I was so busy in high school, like two times busier than I was in college, honestly, because it would be like, go to school at 8am. And then you spend all day three o'clock. And then you have practice from like three to six.

And then 6pm, you go back home, let's feed the horses, chase the sheep back in, chase the cows back in. And it would be done like when it's dark outside at that point. And that was like literally a weekday for me was like doing that consecutively.

And I always remember it. And I think about it sometimes and I'm like, dang. I was really, really busy.

And even when I go back home, I still get put to work. So yeah, so sometimes there's my grandma, she does not believe in rest days, honestly. She does not believe in rest days.

And sometimes we joke around with her like, dang, like, how are you like still going like sit down? And she's just still going. And but yeah, growing up on a ranch was like, definitely a part of myself that I guess, that I kind of, not many people, I guess, know.

So every time I'm, yeah, I guess in the city, it's so different. That life is so different, like urban life and res life. And going up on a ranch, they're different.

So every time I get to go home, I get kind of a little humble awakening of like, just going, going, going. And then I'm in this city where I'm like this urban kid and I get to, you know, take, lay down without getting yelled at.

[Ranger Eliana]

That's so funny. And it's so funny that you say that life was harder in high school than in college when you were running. Yeah.

Also, because you mentioned like, being able to rest at the hotel as your reward for winning. I can tell you work really, really hard. I want to ask you, so like, you mentioned this summer, you're not running.

What is it like to not be running for a summer? Because you're such a hard worker. Like, is that weird?

[Ali Upshaw]

Yeah, it is a little weird. Like, kind of, you know, I've taken the summers a lot more seriously in the past in terms of training. You know, I do run like consecutively still, but like not on the level in which like I've done past summers because I don't have a cross country season anymore.

So I've run out of all of my cross country eligibility. So for five consecutive years, I've done like my summers have just been filled with training and like focusing on the fall. And so it's really weird for me.

Like, I've been really trying to step out of like my comfort zone and like do new things and like kind of step away from training. But it's definitely a new period of my life where I'm trying to get used to it with like not having a cross country season. So yeah, it's a shift for sure.

[Ranger Eliana]

Yeah, I can definitely speak to that as well. I'm not a runner, but having graduated college recently, you know, it's like such a pivotable time for our identities as well. You kind of told me a little bit before about like what your future with running might look like.

I was wondering if you were interested in speaking about that at all, because like there's actually, she told me there's a lot of business that goes into a running career. And I think that's so interesting.

[Ali Upshaw]

Yeah, I know the business side of running is so, it's so complicated in different ways. It's definitely something that I don't really, I'm not fully knowledgeable in. But, you know, there are some, you know, post collegiate opportunities to run professionally and insights for me, which I really do want to do.

And that's been like a goal ever since, you know, halfway through my college career. And, you know, that's been a goal for me. And that's something I really want to do.

But there's a lot of logistics that go behind it. And yeah, the business world is a little scary with, you know, a lot of things. There's a lot of language that's used differently in the business world of running that I kind of got to get used to.

So yeah, I have a couple of opportunities, insights, but I also might pursue a half year to run my outdoor season, because I don't have any more cross country or indoor. So if you don't know, a lot of like collegiate athletes, they run all year. So it's cross country, then they have indoor in the wintertime.

And then in the spring, it's straight into outdoor season. On the outdoor track, you get all three seasons throughout the year. Whereas like basketball, it's just that season in, you know, starting from winter all the way to spring.

So I only have outdoor left. And so I'm still working that whole thing out of should I go back to finish that? Or should I work with what I have now in terms of like value?

So, you know, the last, they say in the business world of running that, you know, you're as good as your last race, which kind of sucks with the kind of like the credibility you build throughout your college career that kind of like sets you up for post collegiate opportunities, which is a little hard and comes with a little bit of pressure to do well. But I would say that like, you know, talking with other people that I did set myself up pretty good to explore different avenues, but it's it's very still kind of like in the unknown.

[Ranger Eliana]

Yeah, that definitely sounds stressful. Like there could be a lot of pressure on you. But you're also so talented and you have so much going on in your life, like with your studies as well.

Going back for your master's is such a big deal. And I'm so, so impressed. I'm like, I don't know, no matter what you do, I know it's going to be great.

Thank you. Oh, of course. Okay, so I'm going to kind of wrap it up here before we open it up if the audience has any questions.

But I just want to ask, like, is there anything else you want to leave us with or leave like all the people listening to this with? That's a big question.

[Ali Upshaw]

No, I'm really glad everybody came. I really appreciate that. And this is really such a unique experience for me being at the Canyon is like in for a podcast that I guess I would never thought I'd be a part of is something.

Yeah, just so new to me. And it brings a different perspective of what the Canyon means, you know, you know, Kelli had mentioned a lot about like, you know, the whole purpose for the podcast. And why it's called Grand Canyon speaks is, you know, letting the Canyon know that we as native people are still here.

And we're speaking into the Canyon and letting it know that we're still here. And so that something that has really resonated with me during my time here and just a whole different approach to what I usually come to the Canyon for.

[Ranger Eliana]

That's so awesome. Thank you so much for coming here and, and sharing your voice with us. This is a big day for me to my first interview.

And Ali is so, so wonderful. She's so talented. And she's so easy to talk to.

So I really, really appreciate you coming here and speaking to the Canyon with us.

[Ali Upshaw]

Thank you so much. And you did really good for your first interview too. So yeah.

[Ranger Eliana]

Oh, thank you. Okay, our work is not done yet. I want to see if anybody here in our audience has any questions for Ali before the sun sets.

[Audience]

I was just curious to know, did you end up being faster than your mom? Since I know that was a goal.

[Ali Upshaw]

Yes. Yeah, no, I joke about it with her because my grandpa used to just talk nonstop about her and I was like, I made it a mission to just be faster. But yeah, no, I appreciate that question.

[Meranden]

What has the difference been from running on the rez? And then running in a place where there's not a lot of indigenous runners?

[Ali Upshaw]

Yeah, no, that was a really big shift for me. And when I first left the res, it's so different. I feel like especially because, you know, running on for all native high school, you run with a lot of other Navajo kids and you train with a lot of Navajo kids.

And you're so used to that environment. And you're taken from one place that you've known for so long and you've been around the people for so long. And then you go to a completely urban area where all the runners are non-native and even some international.

In my first year running, we had girls from Norway, Germany, and all different places that I wasn't used to. And I think the main difference was just the culture shock of just getting used to an urban environment and kind of like almost feeling lonely, in a sense, being the only one that's going through this. So we had a Native student-athlete summit in Indiana like two, three weeks ago.

And that was a conversation that a lot of Native student-athletes had at that summit where it was like, sometimes you do feel lonely. And it's really hard to connect with some other non-native athletes that don't know your background. But that's the one thing about sports and running is that it really keeps you grounded in goal setting and your personal identity of kind of like almost in a way like running has a very cultural significance to me.

And it's like when I'm running, I can always know. I always know that I'm still connected to my culture. I'm still doing the same thing that I'm doing that I would be doing at home.

So I guess, yeah, just that culture shock of everything was the main difference.

[Audience]

I have a question. There's been a big theme in this talk of like working hard and glimmers of rest. And I'm curious as to what rest does look like for you.

How do you take care of yourself as a runner? And almost going all the way to like what's advice you would give to other runners of how to take care of themselves?

[Ali Upshaw]

Yeah, that's a good question. I think rest for me, especially with, I guess, higher level running competition. That's one thing our coaches like really stress upon is like rest and recovery.

But I would say like with training, I usually leave a day where I'm completely off. I don't keep going consecutively every day throughout the week. And I guess one thing is you have to like really listen to your body.

It's not bad to take a rest day and it's not bad to like miss a day or so. And I think that's one thing that I would give advice about. But in those heavier mileage week for me, it's like completely off of my feet like and making sure that I have like a lot of food throughout the day, I guess I would say.

So, yeah.

[Ranger Eliana]

Well, thank you so much, Ali. Again, I do want to say that I feel like you're such a great role model for young people. And yeah, all that you do is really so, so amazing.

So, thank you for being here. And thank you to our audience as well. And we will be here if you guys have any questions for us.

So, thanks, guys. Have a good night.

[Ranger Jonah]

Grand Canyon Speaks is a program hosted by Grand Canyon National Park and the Grand Canyon Conservancy. A special thanks to Aaron White for the theme music. This recording reflects the personal lived experiences of tribal members and do not encompass the views of their tribal nation or that of the National Park.

To learn more about Grand Canyon First Voices, visit www.nps.gov/grca. Here at Grand Canyon National Park, we're on the ancestral homelands of the 11 associated tribes of the Grand Canyon. These being the Havasupai Tribe, the Hualapai Tribe, the Navajo Nation, the Hopi Tribe, the Pueblo of Zuni, the Yavapai Apache Nation, the Kaibab Band of Paiute Indians, the Las Vegas Paiute Tribe, the Moapa Band of Paiutes, the Paiute Indian Tribe of Utah, and the San Juan Southern Paiute Tribe.

Welcome to the first episode of Season 3! This episode is about Kyle Sumatzkuku, a Hopi runner from Mishongnovi. ALCC intern, Meranden, talks with Kyle about his running journey and what it was like to qualify and run in the Boston Marathon. He also talks about his experiences becoming a cross-country coach and mentoring youth through Wings of America.

---

TRANSCRIPT:

---

Kyle Sumatzkuku: It pretty much opened my eyes and it gave me a perspective about how truly Hopi running is not only just about this physical capability, but pretty much just running with your heart.

Ranger Grace: Welcome back to season three of Grand Canyon Speaks. This is Ranger Grace.

Ranger Dan: And this is Ranger Dan.

Ranger Grace: In this episode, Meranden sat down with Kyle Sumatzkuku to discuss his career as a runner.

Ranger Dan: He shared Hopi's connections to running and how it's a significant aspect of Hopi culture.

Ranger Grace: Kyle grew up running at the Moenkopi Day School and is now competing in races like the Boston Marathon.

Ranger Dan: Take a listen as Kyle reflects on his journey and we hope you enjoy.

Meranden: Kyle, would you like to go ahead and introduce yourself?

Kyle Sumatzkuku: [Speaks Hopi] Hello, good evening, everyone. My name is Kyle Sumatzkuku. My Hopi name is Leetayo. It means Fox or Running Fox. That name was given to me when I was initiated. And that name was given by the Coyote clan, who are my ceremonial parents. I am of the Corn clan. I am from the village of Mishongnovi, generally known as Second Mesa. But I do live in the village of Moenkopi, generally known as Third Mesa.

Kyle Sumatzkuku: And pretty much, we are matriarchal and matrilineal tribe. So we always follow our mom's side of the family. So I am born from the Corn clan. And for my father's side is Sun clan, who is from the village of Moenkopi. Yeah, so it's a great honor and a good pleasure to be here to share our evening with you all. So I am 29 years old. I don't look like it. So yeah.

Meranden: Awesome. So I'm really happy to have you here, Kyle. Just really off the bat, have you been to the Grand Canyon before?

Kyle Sumatzkuku: Yes, I have been here since when I was going to school at the Moenkopi Day School. We used to come here for field trips and get on the train and just visit these sites here, especially the Watchtower. And it was, all in all, like a really good childhood memory of mine, even though it's just in our backyards of Hopi land and Diné land. So it's always a pleasure to come back. But then again, we just have to be careful when we visit this place, because it's just a very sacred place to us. We kind of treat this place very gentle and a gentle spirit that lies here. So it's always good to come back and be here near the canyon, near the sun and the skies. So yeah.

Meranden: Awesome. Yeah. And I know, like you mentioned, it's really, really sacred. And I mentioned in the beginning, it has a lot of different perspectives through these different tribes. They're not all the same. They all have different meanings, different stories, things like that.

Meranden: So we always mention to our guests, our visitors here, that you treat it as a living landscape. You treat it as your own home. You don't leave trash here. You take care of it just like anything else. So like I mentioned, it's very sacred to everybody here. A lot of tribes call the canyon home.

Meranden: So right off the bat, like I mentioned, this season for season three, we talked about it having a theme of Indigenous athletes. Something that you do is running. And that's something I would really, really like to highlight today. So how did you get started with your running?

Kyle Sumatzkuku: I started running when I was a little kid. Just running in the village at recess at the Moenkopi Day School. And, you know, just doing it during our free time and downtime. And just having fun with our childhood friends at the Moenkopi Day School. Because the Moenkopi Day School had like a big giant compound. And you can just absolutely just run a lot of miles on it.

Kyle Sumatzkuku: And, you know, it was definitely a childhood core to me. Because the Moenkopi Day School is literally in our backyard. And we can always just visit that little recess compound. And just be active and have fun with our friends. And, you know, yeah.

Meranden: Yeah, I remember that too. Because, I mean, we grew up in the same area. And we used to go there with my siblings too. And play in that same place. And, you know, like everywhere back home, there's a lot of different places you can go running. And we were always told not to be lazy. So we always went out and went running and things like that. So, you know, like I mentioned, running is very, very important. Not just for your health, much like the canyon as well. It's super important to the tribes here. But what importance does running have to Hopi?

Kyle Sumatzkuku: Ever since I started running as a kid. And just pretty much going through the journey as being born. And getting initiated. And getting older. And becoming more mature. I didn't start to take running seriously when I was between 6th to 7th grade.

Kyle Sumatzkuku: By that time frame, I was already pretty much being shared the knowledge of. That there was a ceremonial races going on at my home village. And it pretty much opened my eyes. It gave me a perspective about how truly Hopi running is not only just about this physical capability. But it has its spiritual, mental. And pretty much just running with your heart.

Kyle Sumatzkuku: And I have uncles who pretty much took me in. And showed me the whole Hopi art of running. And especially with my dad. My dad shared a lot of stories about why we do these ceremonial races. And these various races that we have on Hopi, it takes a lot of maturity. And to understand why we do it. And we have these various races. That we have snake dance race. We have the flute dance race. And we have the basket dance race. And we have clan races in our home village. And pretty much it represents all of walk of life.

Kyle Sumatzkuku: And it makes the connection back here to the canyon. So I didn't start doing those races when I started to understand and get much more older. Yeah, so it just took a lot of maturity. And clearly, what's the more important reason to carry on with those races until this day.

Meranden: Yeah, and when you run these races, are there a lot of other individuals who run with you as well?

Kyle Sumatzkuku: Yeah, so we have pretty much good runners back at home. But all throughout Hopi. So it's always good to see their faces again. And they're always eager to like pretty much show up. And just have a grand old time. And just place down some prayers for not only for ourselves. Not only for our families and our loved ones. But pretty much for all living things out there. And having it connect with the ceremony itself too as well. Because it brings the might of the earth not only to our earth. But to people's hearts too as well.

Meranden: Yeah, we've talked about how running is not just for your health. But it's also a form of prayer. We do it for moisture. We do it for a lot of cultural reasons. So that running aspect is very important to Hopi. You know, you mentioned these races. And you didn't really start getting serious with it at a younger age. Until, you know, you start going to school. What was running like for you as a student growing up? Like middle school or high school? What was that running experience like?

Kyle Sumatzkuku: Ever since I started running at the Moenkopi Day School, I didn't really take running that serious. Matter of fact, a true story here. When I started running at the Moenkopi Day School, I would always start leading out the runners. I would lead the runners. And then by then, probably halfway, I would see like one of my teammates or my good friends. My good buddies who are like hunched over or hurt.

Kyle Sumatzkuku: Or you know, my empathy. Me, I'm showing compassion to my fellow running mates. I would stop and I would go back and check on them while the other runners would pass. And I didn't know anything about competition back then. You know, I was just there just hanging out, having a good time with my friends and running with them. Because we always ran with each other during recess, clan runs, and even our training.

Kyle Sumatzkuku: So when it came to races, I was so compassionate to my fellow teammates. Even when they have a side ache or they're about to puke or anything. And I would stay behind and check up on them. And then by the time when the race is just about over, we'll still be in the back of the pack. And we'll still be like lollygagging, having a chat or just talking to each other. And while we just see the other runners by us, just past us.

Kyle Sumatzkuku: And then once we cross the finish line, my parents, my mom and dad will ask me like, hey, how come you weren't in front of the other runners? I was like, oh, I was just waiting for my friend.

Meranden: We talked about the races that you did growing up, or just running in general and being careful with the teammates that you had. I know you also did other kind of running such as community stuff, maybe like Just Move It, your own kind of races. What was that experience like doing those kind of bigger races rather than running for school?

Kyle Sumatzkuku: It was definitely like another realm for me to step in. Just maturing from elementary to junior high to high school races, running against schools, but stepping into bigger races, going to Australia Down Under to race an international race when I was a junior in high school, which was quite an experience and I loved it. But after that, I kind of dug deep and thought about it more like, wow, I actually went to Down Under to Australia to race there.

Kyle Sumatzkuku: But then again, maybe I want to go to the West Coast or to the East Coast to race. And then after all, racing against reservations, to reservations, to going from city to another country, always wanted to come back and race in the United States. But furthermore, racing at Shiprock Marathon in New Mexico, that was definitely a really good opener for me. And it pretty much prolonged to going to the East Coast to run the Boston Marathon.

Meranden: Awesome. Now that you mentioned the Boston Marathon, you ran that in 2021, correct?

Kyle Sumatzkuku: Yes, correct.

Meranden: Cool. Yeah. And could you talk a little bit more about that? What was the experience running in Boston? Did you have to qualify or what was the process like getting ready for the Boston Marathon?

Kyle Sumatzkuku: So the Boston Marathon itself, I did not know. I was kind of like, it was quite a long shot for me because I didn't know you have to qualify in your age category to hit a qualifying time or a Boston time qualifier, BTQ, as they say. And honestly, you had to run a marathon just to qualify for Boston.

Kyle Sumatzkuku: So when I started doing my research, I was kind of like a little bit hesitant and a little bit scared and a little bit anxious because I didn't know what I was walking into. And it all started from the spring of 2019 and then carried on to summer. So I did sign up for the Shiprock Marathon that is held in Shiprock, New Mexico.

Kyle Sumatzkuku: And that marathon is pretty much a big gig, says so in the newspaper. And so I did train for that. And I was training in Lancaster, California. I spent a semester out there at Valley. And my coach, Coach Clay, he was there and he did mention that, hey, you can be a marathon runner and you do have the endurance and you have the aerobic capacity. I was like, oh, OK, let's do it. So qualifying for the race, did the Shiprock Marathon. And I was 25 years old then. And I did have a time standard in mind, just hitting six flat pace, hoping to beat three hours, particularly in my age category.

Kyle Sumatzkuku: I was supposed to hit three hours even just to qualify for the Boston Marathon. But I was a little bit, probably 20 to 30 minutes ahead of three hours. So it was quite a shocker. I didn't know that the Shiprock Marathon was going to be a Boston qualifying course to time. And yeah, so.

Meranden: So when you ran the Shiprock Marathon, what was your time?

Kyle Sumatzkuku: It was 2:38:08. Yeah.

Meranden: Two hours and 38 minutes. Oh, my God. And your pace was like six?

Kyle Sumatzkuku: It was between six flat to 5:55 pace.

Meranden: And that's 26 miles, right?

Kyle Sumatzkuku: 26.2 miles.

Meranden: Oh, my God. That's crazy. And then when you did the Boston Marathon, how did that turn out? What was it like going from? I know you mentioned you went to a lot of different places to run. And this is one of the biggest races, biggest marathons that is out there for runners. What was that experience like?

Kyle Sumatzkuku: The build up to it, the lead up to it was something very monumental. And, you know, once I hit the qualifying standard for Boston, it was my first Boston Marathon ever. And, you know, the build up to it was just absolutely just nerve wracking.

Kyle Sumatzkuku: It was very nervous. And, you know, I try to keep my composure having my loved ones, my family, my mom and dad, you know, the whole community, the whole village, just to keep my composure while doing the training, not only the training, having the strong encouragement and the high spirits to lead up to the race like that. And, you know, I was getting absolutely just mighty prayers, some good encouragement from not only from my village, but, you know, from all over from different tribes and surrounding reservations.

Kyle Sumatzkuku: And, you know, it was definitely something worth thinking about to this day, because it was quite an experience and it was so heavy. And I still reflect about it to this day. And, you know, it was like, how are we going to get there? Of course, we need the money. Yeah, there was a checklist where, yeah, I did one check, check the box off was qualifying for Boston. What's next?

Kyle Sumatzkuku: Yeah, doing like a fundraiser and then getting the word out. And honestly, the Boston Marathon is annually held on the month of April. But during that time frame, it was kind of uncertain times.

Kyle Sumatzkuku: And it was kind of, you know, unwary because the president of the United States of the year of 2022 to 2021, you know, the pandemic happened. COVID hit, you know, all races were canceled, all races were postponed. But for Boston, it was pretty much postponed. And then it was pretty much canceled. And then it led on to virtual race during that time. And annually, it was held in April.

Kyle Sumatzkuku: And it was always held on Monday, Patriots Day. But it was a blessing in disguise for me that Boston during that time, went through all that segment. And then it came back, made the announcement saying that, oh, Boston is going to be held in the month of October, which was kind of surprising.

Kyle Sumatzkuku: And, you know, it was going to be kept at that date and postponed to October 20, October 11, 2021. But during that time, during that day, it was held, the race was held on Indigenous Peoples Day. So whatever, whatever natural occurrence was that, you know, it was definitely a journey for me to take on.

Kyle Sumatzkuku: And, you know, it was something that out there naturally, out there was, you're going to run this race, no matter what the setbacks are from the previous races, from qualifying, going through the trials and tribulations leading up to Boston. So it took me just about almost two years just to, you know, get ready for the Boston Marathon and race on the month of October 11, 2021. And, you know, it was something powerful and mighty.

Kyle Sumatzkuku: And knowing that it was going to be on Indigenous Peoples Day, normally the race would be on Patriots Day in the month of April during springtime. So it was something that I still think about to this day. And, you know, just trying to wrap my mind around it and to share with you all, it's something very mighty.

Meranden: Yeah, that's awesome. Because, you know, during this time you talked about, it was time of uncertainty with, you know, COVID happening. And then, like you mentioned, that blessing of the sky is happening now on October of Indigenous Peoples Day.

Meranden: That's really cool that you got to, you know, think about running not just for yourself, but your whole community, your whole, like all the cultures, all the traditions, things like that. It's really cool that you had that special honor of doing that and having a race like that. And then I know over time, you mentioned that through all this running, you have achieved a lot of goals. You've been able to check the list off the bucket list of, you know, running this Boston Marathon.

Meranden: As you continue, you know, you mentioned you're 29, still very young. What are some goals that you created for yourself that, as a runner, that you hope to achieve in the future?

Kyle Sumatzkuku: I pretty much have long-term goals and I have short-term goals. But sometimes goals can just be elusive. Sometimes you can make them achieve and fulfill them and be successful with them.

Kyle Sumatzkuku: But sometimes you just have to check back and, you know, reach those goals. And, you know, just enduring the journey of those trials and tribulations and going through the process, you know, it takes a lot where you have to go back and think about to yourself and being like, hey, I got this. What if you have these nagging doubts?

Kyle Sumatzkuku: You have these insecurities and whatnot. What if I'm not going to make it? Or what if I'm not going to get the Boston Marathon qualifying time? And, you know, just sticking to that plan, you know, it takes time. It takes effort. It takes a lot of, you know, all these little things just to make it happen, not only the physicality, but the spiritual-wise, the mental-wise.

Kyle Sumatzkuku: And, you know, just enduring the journey of running Shiprock Marathon was my goal of qualifying for Boston. I ran a 2:38:08 at the Shiprock Marathon back in 2019. And then once I fulfilled the Boston Marathon back in October 11, 2021, I ran a 2:26:17 at my first Boston Marathon debut. So there was a huge gap there. And running Boston twice was something very fulfilling that I had to relive and come back because the first time was very successful. But the second time I went back, you know, it was held in the month of April where it was kind of hot.

Kyle Sumatzkuku: So, you know, just reflecting back on the first Boston Marathon debut, going back again in 2022, always wanted to make a bigger margin of from 2:26:00 to the second Boston Marathon debut. But times during that time, I didn't get to fulfill it, you know. So I did have to step back and just to reflect on what possibly will happen during that time of the second debut.

Kyle Sumatzkuku: But yeah, so goals can be elusive. Sometimes you can stick to them. Sometimes there's some mishaps, hiccups, you know, things like that can happen and occur in a marathon race just like that.

Kyle Sumatzkuku: But, you know, I did the second marathon debut. I did have my trials and tribulations where I had tears. I had breakdowns and my spirits was a bit cracked and more so broken.

Kyle Sumatzkuku: But definitely, I will honestly want to go back and make another debut sometime, hopefully next year or the following year. But, you know, the future is bright. So we can always carry on this prayer of sticking to the goal and making a big impact and trying to overcome those fears, those nagging doubts and those insecurities as a runner.

Kyle Sumatzkuku: And, you know, it can definitely be pretty much a mental battle with yourself. But then again, you surround yourself with good people, with good teammates who definitely encourage you, not only they admire your running, admire yourself and the way you carry yourself. But, you know, they always love seeing people, seeing yourself out there running and continue to try and continue to push the envelope in and just give it all you got. But, you know, just don't give up. Don't relent, you know, don't be so hard on yourself about it because I had my times there and, you know, I still think about that time. It was kind of scary.

Kyle Sumatzkuku: Yeah, it was kind of finding myself alone during that time frame. But days passed by and, you know, having my loved ones and my family saying, it's OK, it's OK, you didn't get to hit the goal that you had in mind. But then again, I kind of thought about it like, yeah, I didn't get to hit it.

Kyle Sumatzkuku: But then again, you know, I still have more years ahead of me just to fulfill them. And, you know, it can be fun sometimes and, you know, you just can't get enough of it. But then again, just thinking about it, having the character, having the strong spirit to carry on and to carry forth and let people know that don't give up, don't relent. And don't be hard about yourself, about not achieving your goals and continue forward and have that strong will in your heart.

Meranden: Yeah, awesome. I do want to mention, based on everything that you just now said, it is very important to have that kind of mindset, you know, taking a step back, understanding that I have these goals, they are there. And, you know, sometimes there are going to be those times where it is going to be hard. But then you also understand, like, this is just part of the journey. This is what makes me stronger. And having that mindset is really good.

Meranden: And it's really nice to see you overcome them, accomplish them, and then just continue to have more goals. So it's really cool to see how you've really transformed throughout the years, throughout the different races that you've done. And, you know, with this running experience you had just as a runner, you've also been able to expand your knowledge to other individuals, such as coaching. So over time, you've been able, actually last year, coach back home in your own local community. What has that experience been like for you?

Kyle Sumatzkuku: It's been unique, definitely. It was something new for me. But then again, I wanted to take time and donate my time to the youth. And, you know, just to share my experiences with them, even though when they're young. Because it's always good to start out young for running. And, you know, you can see them blossom and see them grow and see them mature as a runner.

Kyle Sumatzkuku: Not only a runner, but, you know, they can mature as a student, and then a runner, and then a good person last. And, you know, it's always good to see them pretty much blossom like that. And, you know, sometimes it's always good to have them endure the trials and tribulations.

Kyle Sumatzkuku: And, you know, there's times where seeing them race, seeing them, it's not only about the training, but then again, it goes further more than more than the training. You know, you have the mentality state and you got your spiritual. And then, you know, just to have those things aligned and, you know, having them blossom into a mature runner. And, you know, I did take the time to share my experiences at the Tuba City boarding school. I did promote from there and then went on to high school. I ran there my seventh and eighth grade year.

Kyle Sumatzkuku: And, you know, it was definitely a unique experience for me because definitely I was looking at those kids. I was like, man, I was a seventh and eighth grade running those high temperatures where it's just so hot. And, you know, and it's always good to stop by and just share miles with them.

Kyle Sumatzkuku: And, you know, sometimes it's not only the running part, but showing them discipline and enthusiasm and optimism and just sharing all those good components about sometimes, yeah, the training's there. But when you get into a race, like, you know, it's always good to be there right by their side and encourage them and, you know, tell them not to give up and not to relent or be so hard about themselves. Because I did experience over a dozen times with runners and, you know, they sometimes come up to me and be like, Kyle, I can't do this.

Kyle Sumatzkuku: Why, like, how come I'm not hitting this pace? How come I'm not hitting this time? Or by the time my competitor, my running next to me, he does this.

Kyle Sumatzkuku: I'll be like, you gotta sometimes just not so be hard on yourself about it, you know. And it takes time, it takes effort, and it takes the maturity. And, you know, not only being a coach at Tuba City Boarding School, but I did spend some time with Wings of America.

Kyle Sumatzkuku: Wings of America is based out of Albuquerque, New Mexico, and they're all around indigenous Native American youth running base. And they do have some summer running camps out all over the reservation of the Four Corners area. And I was very fortunate to be a facilitator slash coach to donate my time with them and meeting other runners from Pueblo, from Diné, from youth all over, just 11 tribes, as they say.

Kyle Sumatzkuku: And, you know, taking on from there, I was pretty much had an opportunity to even coach on the Hopi Reservation, where we have Hopi Wellness Center. And we did have our two second annual Hopi Running Camp at the Hopi Civic Center. And they were kind enough for allowing me to coach them and have a three-day running camp with the youth.

Kyle Sumatzkuku: And so from Tuba City Boarding School to Wings of America to donating my time to Hopi Wellness Center for a running camp all in all, it was just a unique experience. And sometimes, you know, I do see all these kids. You'll be like, hey, you're the Tuba City Boarding School runner or the coach.

Kyle Sumatzkuku: And I'll be like, yeah, hey, how's it going? And, you know, and be like, oh, hey, I seen you at the Wings of America Running Camp. Or I seen you at the Just Move It. And I seen you at the Hopi Wellness Running Camp, the Hopi Running Camp. And, you know, just so on and so forth. And, you know, so I do take the time and I do take, you know, the time to talk to them. And, you know, just pretty much sharing my knowledge of running. And not only like the running, but the cultural and aspirations for them. And it's always open. I'm always willing to share. And yeah, so.

Meranden: Awesome. Yeah. And I know you mentioned talking about sharing your knowledge and, you know, yourself using that donation of your time to the youth, to your community, things like that. And over time, you've been able to show that as a coach. Since we have this platform here, and I know you actually want to show something here. Would you like to talk a little bit of what that is?

Kyle Sumatzkuku: Yes. So these are pretty much photographs from one of the traditional races that we have on Hopi. And it's a basket dance race. And these are one of the ceremonial races that we have during the time of fall. And, you know, I had a special honor and privilege that one of my uncles does who got to photograph the run. And, you know, it's definitely something so monumental. And I love those photos. It's definitely, I love physical copies. And it's something that I reflect on.

Kyle Sumatzkuku: And, you know, it's a constant reminder that, you know, this is what we do. And this is what we have on Hopi. And I want to share that with you all. And I want to share it with the youth and the young ones out there that, yeah, you are always welcome to run these races, the flute dance, the snake dance, the basket dance, and even the clan runs. So, yeah, so.

Meranden: For our audience listening online, what are some of the pictures that are on there? What are some of them on there?

Kyle Sumatzkuku: Oh, yeah, so.

Meranden: Okay, like there's some with your family.

Kyle Sumatzkuku: Oh, yeah, so I do have some with my family. Yeah, so this was here with my family. So I do have my uncle. And then I have my mom and my other mom. And then I have one of my good buddies from the village. And this was all taken post-race.

Kyle Sumatzkuku: And along with my uncle here, who had taught me the Hopi art of running. And, you know, I can't thank him enough of how much he blossomed and matured me into a Hopi runner and taught me about these Hopi ceremonial races. And, you know, and so, yeah, so.

Meranden: Yeah, those are some nice photos. I like seeing those. They remind me of, like, even my own, like seeing the one. Like you mentioned, having physical photos, physical copies is really, really nice. So, yeah, like you mentioned, the whole thing of the importance of it, passing it on to the youth, for anyone. This is also for anyone in the audience or those online listening. What are some advice that you would give to upcoming runners of any age, even youth, that would like to be upcoming runners or athletes?

Kyle Sumatzkuku: Yeah, so, you know, it's always good to start out. You know, you can start out small. And, you know, you don't need any fancy machines or anything. You just need a pair of running shoes and some good running attire and just run those trails. And, you know, I did start out when I was young, just from recess to having time with my friends. And, you know, it's definitely a journey to take on. And it's always good to share. And, you know, so it's always good to start out small. I did start out as a late bloomer, as they say.

Kyle Sumatzkuku: I wasn't fast back at the Moenkopi Day School. And I was quite of a chubby kid. I do have a photo. When I first started out running at a Hopi running camp back in 2007, and I was a bit heavy set. But then again, I kind of didn't. I just ran for fun. But then again, from fun, it kind of matured myself into. So, you know, you can always start out small. And, you know, you don't need any fancy machines, just a pair of good running sneakers. And then just have yourself, have your own solitude, have your good efforts and have, you know, finding that happy place in your heart where just running, having a jog, having a walk, having a brisk walk. Or, you know, it's always fun to take on a journey like that. And, you know, sometimes you're hooked.

Kyle Sumatzkuku: Sometimes you get the running bug, as they say. And, you know, it's always good to start out young as I have and start out slow. So it's always good to start out where you started. And it always starts from home. And, you know, I always thought about starting out when I was young and, you know, just evolving, maturing, taking on this like a stepping stone. And, you know, it's quite an experience when you get older and you think about these things.

Kyle Sumatzkuku: And you'd be like, wow, I actually had a slow start. And, you know, it was quite of a time of my life and, you know, something to reflect on. So out there, people who want to get into the sport of running, you know, it's good for your wellness. It's good for your health. It's good for your spirit. It's good for your mind. And it's just good all around your well-being. And yeah, so.

Meranden: Yeah, that's good advice. I actually have a half marathon coming up in October. So I'm taking it slow, definitely. Running those lower mileages and then also learning how to get a pretty good pace. And also like back home, there's a lot of places you can run. All the hills, all the different places to run. So throughout this interview, we actually have a fun question for our guests. The fun question is, if you could have any indigenous food right now, what would it be?

Kyle Sumatzkuku: I was always spoiled back at home, especially on Hopi. You know, we're farmers and, you know, everything is based around corn, beans and watermelon, squash. And we have heirloom seeds that we plant every summer.

Kyle Sumatzkuku: And, you know, based off those foods, everything famous about our Hopi food is probably piki known as. It's a bread. It's blue. It's made out of juniper ashes. And it comes off and it's baked on a stone that it's black and has animal fat brains to sheep brains. And it's casted with watermelon seeds. That's how it gets that really good ashy texture. Kyle Sumatzkuku: But probably it will be piki. And nöqwivi, of course, that is made from white corn. And it's very filling. And it has can be whatever whatever kind of meat, rabbit meat or even sheep meat. Also, somiviki, it's pretty much blue corn. And it has a really good texture of the ashy from the juniper ash taste. And yeah, and it's very sweet. So I would say those are my top three. And watermelon, of course. And, you know, I can go on about these special foods. And they're definitely a delicacy that we have on Hopi land. And also frybread and the notorious Indian taco.

Meranden: Yeah, those are all really good ones. And usually we say, I kind of say the same thing because I like to say my kind of food. I would say nöqwivi, piki is a good one because everyone's like, what is that? But we try to say like, sometimes we explain as like a piece of paper. And if you were to like, literally, if I wrote this paper, it kind of looks like that. It's like that thin. And you just eat it with like you dip it in a lot. You can dip it in tea, you can dip in coffee, dip it in your soup, things like that. But those are some good answers.

Meranden: As we are beginning to wrap up this interview, I have one last question for you. And what would you like to leave this audience here? And then our audience online, what would you like to leave them with today?

Kyle Sumatzkuku: Yeah, so all in all, take care of yourselves. You know, live a happy life. You know, it's always good to take care of your well-being, your mental state, your spiritual, even your heart. And, you know, Ronnie just taught me a lot. And to connect with not only with people, not only with humans, but along with in depth of connecting with the land, connecting with our animals out there, and the vegetation, the birds, and even the bugs out there that just roam around this earth. And, you know, it's always good to connect with Mother Earth herself.

Kyle Sumatzkuku: And, you know, it's always good to just take time out of your day to go out there and just to run or take a good morning walk or a good morning jog out there and think about what we have in this life. And, you know, we only have one life here on this earth. And, you know, it's always good to live it every day like it's your last, you know, sharing good memories, sharing good cheers, birthdays, weddings, you know, all those good things in life.

Kyle Sumatzkuku: And it's always good to have good pals, good mates, good buddies next to you and whatever purpose, whatever life that you're trying to fulfill with your spouse, a best friend and with your loved ones and family. And, you know, keep them close. And we always think about our loved ones back at home and especially, you know, around this world. Because, you know, we only have one life. We only live on one earth. We only have one life to give.

Kyle Sumatzkuku: And, you know, so just take care of yourselves out there wherever you go, whatever you're doing, whatever morning ritual you have, you know, the simple rituals, having a morning coffee, having morning tea with your family. And, you know, so take care of your well-being because you have a purpose here on this earth. And it's always good to check on one another even though you haven't seen them for a while, you haven't seen them for, you know, how many days out.

Kyle Sumatzkuku: So, yeah, and just be good to yourself. And, you know, there's some hard, rough patches, muddy patches out there that we endure, that we have not only, you know, at our home base or, you know, it could be at work or the daily life, the daily routines that you have, you know, just take time and take time for yourself to reflect and, you know, just to show yourself the loving, having that spoiled moment with yourself, you know, go out there and spoil yourself. It doesn't hurt to spoil yourself, to hang out with friends and, or even by your lonesome, to visit a canyon like this or to visit your favorite place that makes you happy. Not only by yourself, but with others that you want to spend time with.

Kyle Sumatzkuku: So life is good. Life can be breathtaking. Life can be heavy at times. Life can be all these sorts of emotions that can deliver to us, but we're only human. You know, we had these five senses of us and, you know, I never, we never take life for granted because, you know, we have our grandparents, we have my parents, we have our parents and, you know, we have our little ones to think about. So visitors who visit this special place, you know, it's always going to be here, whatever place that you have on your trip or wherever you want to go that you call your special place, you know, take care of it.

Kyle Sumatzkuku: Just give it back the blessings that you endured just to give it back to the place because it made you so happy and it made you feel composed and during those highs and lows, it made you so better. So all in all, look out for one another, love each other. You know, it doesn't matter where, who we are, where we come from, you know, we treat each other with respect and with the love that we want, the love and respect that we want to treat them and how they want to treat us.

Kyle Sumatzkuku: And in Hopi, we have these five principles and it's these principles that are endured for Hopi, but out there, not only for Hopi, but out there with the 11 tribes, they have their own principles. But in Hopi, we have [speaks Hopi] and I'm forgetting another one. Pretty sure my dad will let me know. But those five principles, those pretty much live around us Hopis. And, you know, if we fulfill those five principles, yeah, we are Hopi. But, you know, treating land, treating every little living being out there with respect, with harmony, with good intentions, with, you know, with what we have on this earth.

Kyle Sumatzkuku: And it follows back with walking this earth, running this earth, you know, having to see a good, a new day, a new sunrise, a new sunset. And, you know, so it's always good to give back to those elements out there and the bugs and the birds and all the living things out there that surround us, that we hear from the morning of the a.m. and even at the dusk until evening. So in Hopi, we say, [speaks Hopi] you know, just take care of yourself, live a strong, happy, loving, and a good-hearted life out there and remain strong out there, take care of your loved ones and, you know, take, be careful and look out for one another, especially wherever you go and wherever your destination will be.

Kyle Sumatzkuku: So thank you and yeah, take care.

Meranden: Owi, askwali for being here. Thank you so much for sharing your knowledge and we look forward to seeing you here again. So thank you.

Kyle Sumatzkuku: Owi, kwa’kwa. Thank you for having me.

Ranger Jonah: Grand Canyon Speaks is a program hosted by Grand Canyon National Park and the Grand Canyon Conservancy. A special thanks to Aaron White for the theme music. This recording reflects the personal lived experiences of tribal members and do not encompass the views of their tribal nation or that of the national park.

Ranger Jonah: To learn more about Grand Canyon First Voices, visit www.nps.gov/grca. Here at Grand Canyon National Park, we are on the ancestral homelands of the 11 associated tribes of the Grand Canyon. These being the Havasupai Tribe, the Hualapai Tribe, the Navajo Nation, the Hopi Tribe, the Pueblo of Zuni, the Yavapai Apache Nation, the Kaibab Band of Paiute Indians, the Las Vegas Paiute Tribe, the Moapa Band of Paiutes, the Paiute Indian Tribe of Utah, and the San Juan Southern Paiute Tribe.

We’re back! Welcome to Grand Canyon Speaks with Season 3, a season dedicated to indigenous athletes of the 11 associated tribes of Grand Canyon National Park. This series dives into their athletic journeys and how much of an impact sports have on their tribal communities.

---

TRANSCRIPT:

---

[Kyle Sumatzkuku]

It took me just about almost two years just to get ready for the Boston Marathon.

[Audre Etsitty]

Our elders do say horses are sacred (speaks Navajo), the horses are medicine.

[Kelkiyana Yazzie]

And having someone who looks like you and has your same, similar lived experiences in this field of work is really important to just go to and lean on.

[Kyle Awelagte]

I feel it's more than running, like just, you know, getting hyped for a race in that competitive area. But I see it more as like a way of healing.

Hello.

Hello.

Hello.

And welcome to Grand Canyon Speaks, an online podcast that highlights the voices of tribal members who call the Grand Canyon home.

Welcome to season three, a season dedicated to highlighting indigenous athletes and learning about the impact that sports have on their tribal communities.

Tune in January 2026 to hear their stories.

[Kelli Jones]

And I think that's something that I love, you know, when I'm an interpreter here to kind of talk about this history. It might be hard history, but it's also showing the resiliency of what our people have gone through.

[Lynette Lewis]

We don't have scouts, college scouts coming out to the reservations to watch our kids play. So that's why, you know, tournaments like NABI were created. This was for the exposure.

[Ali Upshaw]

You know, names like Alvina Begay, Billy Mills, all native runners that have run at such a high level. And they've always, I guess, shown me that, like, if they can do it, I can do it too.

[Wendi Lewis]

Then you ever run on Hopi, they'll thank you in our language because we recognize that as prayer.

[Jason Amador]

So I would always say to never give up, keep going, and chase your dreams. Because for me, I was a kid in the stand from a small reservation. Now I'm a six-foot guard playing at Grand Canyon.

So for me, like, you can achieve anything you want.

In this episode, Ranger Annie sat down with Zuni jeweler, April Unkestine. Her work has been made popular by collectors and celebrities such as Brian May. Like many Zuni jewelers, April incorporates the Zuni sun face design into her channel inlay work but with her own twist. She also shares the cultural significance of the Grand Canyon in relation to Zuni and its history. Take a listen to this episode and enjoy!

---

TRANSCRIPT:

---

April Unkestine: Whenever you see an artist, remember that, you know, it wasn't machine-made. It was something that they made from their heart, something that, you know, they put a lot of effort in working on and be appreciative.

Ranger Annie: Yeah, appreciative.

Lakin: Hello and welcome back to Grand Canyon Speaks. This is Lakin. Meranden: And this is Meranden. Lakin: In this episode, Ranger Annie interviewed a multi-talented artist from the Zuni Pueblo.

Meranden: April Unkestine is best known for her inlay jewelry and traditional designs such as the sun face.

Lakin: She shares her experience as a demonstrator and the symbolism behind her work.

Meranden: Take a listen to April's story and we hope you enjoy.

April Unkestine: My name is April Unkestine. I am from the Pueblo of Zuni, New Mexico. They asked me to talk with you guys about my jewelry and our connection with the Grand Canyon.

Ranger Annie: Yeah. And so, when did you start making jewelry?

April Ukestine: I started making jewelry when I was 15 years old. I grew up with my grandma. My grandma was diabetic and, you know, couldn't really support me. So, I ended up, you know, working on jewelry. And my aunt was the one who taught me how to make jewelry.

Ranger Annie: Nice. And so, who were kind of your biggest inspirations? Your aunt and...

April Unkestine: Well, most of my family were silversmiths. My grandma and my grandpa did silversmithing, just like my husband and I. He does his own thing and I do my own thing. My grandma and grandpa did their own things. My grandma did a lot of, like, inlay, similar to the famous Dishta work.

April Unkestine: And then my grandpa did his own petite point work. So, I used to watch them and sometimes I would help my grandma, but I never got to help my grandpa because even when he tried to teach me, I couldn't pick up that. I couldn't do his work. It seems simple, but I can't do his work.

Ranger Annie: So, can you kind of describe the process of, like, inlay and stuff like that?

April Unkestine: Actually, the inlay is, like, stone to stone. You make the bezel and then you do stone to stone, depending on what stones you use. Like, for me, I use a lot of mother-of-pearl, pin shell. I use turquoise, coral, you know, whatever's available to me. Sometimes I like to go and use a lot of different other materials, like I use gabasite. Gabasite is a stone with black lines and white spots on it.

April Unkestine: And it comes out pretty nice. It looks like it's cracked when you polish it, but it's pretty nice. I've also used what they call Newland. There is, like, a new turquoise, which is from Nevada. It's almost like the gabasite, but it's pretty neat, too. So, I use a lot of different variations in my stones and channel inlays, like, just stone to stone.

Ranger Annie: Yeah, and has your process kind of changed over time or...?

April Ukestine: No, not that much.

Ranger Annie: What are some of the...I was looking at a lot of your work earlier, and there were a lot of really intricate, cool symbols. Can you kind of tell us a bit about, like, the symbols in your artwork?

April Unkestine: The symbols in my artwork are symbols of the sun face. So, in our culture, we pray to the sun, which is our father sun. We ask for blessings, you know, and also the sun gives life, so we ask for a longevity of life. So, it's basically, you know, something that I picked up from my aunt, and that's how she explained it to me, so.

Ranger Annie: Nice. Yeah. So, and you had said, when we talked earlier, you had mentioned or you were describing the style that you had, and you said that it's not your style. But that it's more of, like, a shared style. Did you want to talk more about that?

April Unkestine: Yeah. The sun face is widely used in my village. Like, there's a lot of people that make sun face jewelry similar to mine, but theirs' are a lot different. A lot of this jewelry that all of us make in the Pueblo was, like, it's almost, like, shared. Like, so, my uncle, I mean, my grandmother's brother married into this family who made the sun faces, and then that lady used to be married to somebody else that made sun faces. So, it just, you know, carries on, like, I don't say this piece, this sun face is mine.

April Unkestine: Like, it's not my design. You know, I attribute a lot of my work to people that passed on that have made the sun face. They're not like mine, but they're similar to mine. So, it's a lot of the jewelry in Zuni are, like, shared. Like, a certain family member made this, but married into another family, and that family makes the jewelry now. And so, when a lot of people say, you know, that was my work, you know, it's been shared.

April Unkestine: People pick it up, you know, they share it with this person, that person. So, a lot of the jewelry making is, like, shared.

Ranger Annie: Yeah. And in the context of sharing, too, when did you kind of get started with the cultural demonstration program?

April Unkestine: The cultural demonstration, I started about three years ago. I've been wanting to, like, do shows and art shows and stuff like that. And one of my artist friends, we were working together. Well, I work with a group of artists in Zuni where we were helping build a park for our youth. And so, I got to working with these artists who go out and do shows. Like, they do big shows in bigger cities and stuff like that. So, you know, I told them, I've never done shows. And they're like, well, you need to try it.

April Unkestine: So, they mentioned this program to me about the Grand Canyon [cultural] Demonstration program. So, I was like, so how do I get started? So, it goes, oh, contact this person and this person. And so, that's what I did. And then when they called me, when the first time we came, me and my husband, we were like, what do we do? You know, how are we going to do this?

April Unkestine: But, you know, it kind of got a lot easier later on, you know, just, you know, calm down. Yeah. So, that's how we started doing demonstration. And we do do little shows. We haven't gotten into the big shows, which I'm trying to do. But, you know, there's a lot of process in it. You do applications and also you need to do, like, professional photographs of your work. And sometimes when I have jewelry, it goes out the door and I can't take pictures of it. The only pictures I have are on my phone.

Ranger Annie: But I know that your work got a lot of notability somewhat recently with the band Queen. Yeah. Do you want to talk about that?

April Unkestine: Well, I usually sell my jewelry to a store in Santa Fe. That store is called Keshi, called the Keshi Connection. It's run by, it was put up by a teacher that used to work in Zuni that bought fetishes from Zuni people. When she retired, she went to Santa Fe and opened this store. So she started buying jewelry and stuff. Anyways, going forward, she buys a lot of my jewelry. So she bought my bolos, my sun-faced bolos. \

April Unkestine: And one day she said, this guy came in. “I didn't know who he was. He was laid back. You know, he walked in and was walking around.” And he said, he got to your bolo. And he says, "I want that." So she sold the bolo, not knowing who he was. And then about two weeks later, a week or two later, it showed up on the red carpet.

April Unkestine: And it was Brian May that had gone into the store, bought the bolo. This was the time when they made the movie Bohemian Rhapsody. So he bought the bolo. And so that's how my fame started. And I don't like, you know, a lot of attention. It was so stressful for me because I would go to, even in my own town, I would go to a store. People would come up to me and say, hey, you're so-and-so. I saw you on the news. I heard you on the radio. Now you're on the magazine and all this other stuff. And it was just crazy. And I was like, no, I can't do that.

Ranger Annie: Did that, how did that kind of affect your work and life after that?

April Unkestine: I actually had a career working as a nurse assistant. I was working with disabled individuals at the time that that happened. So with a lot of demand in my work and my jewelry, I was like, I can't, you know, juggle my work and then, you know, do jewelry. So I had to quit working on, you know, working with disabled individuals, and I ended up working just on my jewelry.

Ranger Annie: That's incredible. So to bring it back to the canyon, I know you had mentioned that this was like your first time coming to Grand Canyon, for the first time you did the cultural demonstration program. But you have a larger like cultural connection to the canyon. Would you like to talk about that?

April Unkestine: Yes. It is said that our, when we came into the world, we came in from the Ribbon Falls. We came out from the Ribbon Falls, and then we made our journey through Zuni Pueblo, where we're currently at. And I had also explained to you about, you know, how we're told that certain times of the year, we're not supposed to talk about our migration story. And this is the time of the year, we don't talk about our migration story. So we talk about it in the wintertime.

April Unkestine: So in wintertime, we will sit around and our ancestors would, you know, our elders would tell us the story about, you know, how we migrated from the Grand Canyon. And then we went to Zuni Pueblo.

Ranger Annie: Yeah. How does it feel to return here to the canyon? Like, you know, for the demonstration program?

April Unkestine: It's really nice. I like that, you know, we have this program, where we're able to show our work and, you know, let people know what process it takes to make a lot of the jewelry that we make, or a lot of the carvings and the pottery, the paintings. There's a lot of artistic talent in our Pueblos, with the Native Americans, they have weaving baskets, whatever. And it's good to show, you know, the people, you know, like, the process of from starting to end, where, you know, you go into a shop, and there's no demonstrator there, you look at the piece, and you're like, Oh, I'll take this.

April Unkestine: But a lot of people don't know what the process is in making the jewelry or the whatever the art that they have. Or how, like, like you asked me, what the significance is in the piece, you know, so they don't know a lot of that, a lot of that stuff. So it's good to have demonstration where people actually see how it's done and how it's made.

Ranger Annie: Have you ever done any art like outside of jewelry?

April Unkestine: Yeah, I actually did a little bit of carving. I did a little bit of carving. I did other types of work. Oh, and I did a little bit of pottery. Sometimes I like to sew. I know they say that sewing isn't art, but it is. Anything is art, even music, dance, anything is art. So I did a lot of that. So I did a variety of stuff.

Ranger Annie: So how did you kind of settle on like jewelry is what you were wanting to do?

April Unkestine: I think jewelry is like my strength. Like when I'm so stressed out, like, everything's falling. And I feel like everything's falling. You know, I sit down and I start working. And it releases a lot of that stress. Like, I'm just sitting there doing my own thing. It keeps me calm. I'm working with my hands. I like working with my hands mostly.You know, I, you know, there's other things I did. But you know, I think jewelry is my strength.

Ranger Annie: Yeah. So you had said that your granddaughter actually said that you should be called an inspirational teacher. How do you see yourself filling that role with your jewelry and your art?

April Unkestine: I, you know, I try to teach younger kids like my granddaughter, other people, I try to teach them, you know, like, do something that makes you happy. You know, like, we have jobs like we have professional jobs, you could be most miserable there. But when we find something, you know, we're more at ease like my jewelry, you know, I'm more at ease doing a lot of that. And whereas when I was working as a nurse assistant, it was like chaos to me.

April Unkestine: I was like, some mornings I didn't want to go. I don't want to go there. So I tell people, you know, do what you like, you know, it's not, it's not the money that counts. It's how you feel, you know, how it makes you feel, you know, how good it makes you feel to do the things you want to do. You know, you know, that's that's how I, you And I've been doing programs in school where I talked to kids about, you know, how doing jewelry, but also remember that, you know, stay in school, have a professional career. Because sometimes in in professional careers, you know, there's setbacks where you're let go or something happens and you don't have a job and you can have like jewelry or some kind of art to fall back on just like in college where you have a major, have a minor.

April Unkestine: So, you know, have art as a minor or, you know, whatever makes you happy, you know, that's what I tell them. Yeah, I love that. Yeah.

Ranger Annie: So when you were growing up, how did you kind of think of the Grand Canyon?

And has that changed since you've been doing this program?

April Unkestine: I've just heard a lot of stories about the Grand Canyon, how we were connected, you know, a lot of stories about, you know, the migration, but I've never really been here before the demonstration. And when I came here, it was like, it's just a certain type of feeling that I felt when I got here. I'm just like an emotional person. So when I came here, I was so emotional. I was like, oh, so this is where it all started, you know, to be here and to actually see a lot of things around here. It was pretty nice.

Ranger Annie: Yeah. And you brought your granddaughter. Not to shout you out.

Ranger Annie: Yeah. So and how many times have you been here with the demonstration?

April Unkestine: I think about three times. Three times. Yeah.

Ranger Annie: How do you feel that, like, this style, how is it kind of different from like what your mentors and influencers sort of design?

April Unkestine: They had their own kind of style when they started working, like a lot of their work was similar, but you had to see the pieces to compare different styles to what mine are. I think theirs were like older style. And then mine was like the newer, like the now style.

April Unkestine: So and they had like more different, I guess, different stones, different, you know, supplies that they use. Like they, a lot of people use turtle shell back then. And now it's outlawed that you can't use turtle shell in jewelry. A lot of different stones that they use we don't use them anymore. So the basic stones that I use are a lot different from what they use back then. And plus, like, it's not really available anymore.

April Unkestine: Like when I started working and when I was 15 years old, we could buy turquoise like just anywhere. Now you have to go and search for turquoise. And like I was explaining to some of the people that came to my stand is that they're starting to make stabilized turquoise, which is not really, you know, like the natural turquoise.

April Unkestine: It's made with a lot of chemicals to keep them together because they're so brittle. But now they smell like plastic. They've made it to where before you can't tell the difference with a hot pin.

Now you can't tell any difference with it because they made it to where it's almost like the natural turquoise. So a lot of our supplies have gone down and I've noticed that a lot of coral is getting, like, hard to find too because we used to find, like, bright red, maroon color coral. Now we're finding, like, orange, some stuff that we really can't use and we'll have to pick through.

And it's a lot of things that have changed over the years. So many changes. Ranger Annie: Yeah, and I know COVID had a large impact too.

April Unkestine: Yeah, during COVID it was like we couldn't go get our supplies. We had to, like, if we went to a trading post, we had to wait in line. Like, they'll send, like, one person in or, like, they'll just bring it to you or whatever.

And we didn't have much people to sell to or we couldn't go out in public and sell like this. And it had a huge impact on our economy and our work. So we had to find ways to, you know, work with getting that money and selling our products.

So we would go online or, like, Facebook was great because people would look you up on Facebook and they say, hey, I see you make this. So we started selling to public. But that's also what I try to help a lot of people in my community.

It's like, you know, you'll be the first person to sell because when we sell to stores, I tell them we're the third person because, you know, a lot of the stores, they'll sell retail and we're, like, the way down there. So I try to tell them, you know, go out and sell, you know, be the first person, you know, do it yourself.

Ranger Annie: Yeah. Having more, like, kind of control over the process.

April Unkestine: Yeah.

Ranger Annie: And so you sell to stores and then I know you're talking about, like, shows and stuff. And what are some of the differences between, like, doing the shows versus the cultural demonstration program?

April Unkestine: During the shows, you don't really have to show them, you your product. You just, you know, put them up there. They come by and they buy, especially if they know you, like, you know, from the stores, they'll come by and they'll buy. And then also doing the shows is a lot more challenging because some shows are juried, meaning that you have to send a professional photo in and people look at it, the jurors look at it and they say, oh, we can bring her in or bring him in. And then then if you're accepted, you get in. But then you also pay a fee, a booth fee.

April Unkestine: And you and the shows, you have to pay your own way to get there. You have to get a motel or wherever you're going to stay. But with the demonstration, I'm glad that, you know, you have, you know, have a place to stay so we don't have to go find a place to stay. Or, you know, a lot of other things are so different from the show to demonstrating.

Ranger Annie: Do you have, like, maybe a favorite memory from demonstrating here?

April Unkestine: That's a tough question.

Ranger Annie: Maybe a good memory.

April Unkestine: Just the first time we came, we didn't know what we were doing. But the second day, it was pretty easy. First day we came, it was chaos. We didn't know what we were doing. We didn't know how we were going to sell or, you know, how we were going to price things or we didn't have that little square where people can swipe their cards to pay us. So it was all cash. And then we started learning all these different ways that they can pay. So we finally got up.

Ranger Annie: Now you're pros.

April Unkestine: Not really.

Ranger Annie: I don't know. Everyone should definitely stop by. Y'all will be here until Thursday.

Ranger Annie: Yeah. So, yeah. And I just kind of want to ask you, like, what would you like for the audience to sort of take away from this discussion and kind of, like, experience here?

April Unkestine: Just like, you know, whenever you see an artist, remember that, you know, it wasn't machine made. It was something that they made from their heart. Something that, you know, they put a lot of effort in working on and, you know, be appreciative.

Ranger Annie: Yeah. Appreciative. Great. And on that note of being appreciative and stuff, I do want to open the floor up to any questions if anybody has any questions for April.

Ranger Annie: So, yeah, the question is, we had a previous demonstrator who encouraged, like, going to reservations to buy directly there. Would that be appropriate, too, for you?

April Unkestine: Yeah, we actually have a little store down there that's owned by artists that they opened up not too long ago. I think it was before, right before the pandemic, they opened up the store for artists to bring their artwork in and for people to come in and buy directly from the artists.

April Unkestine: So we actually have that store. And then we also have one that recently came in Gallup. It's called the ZART. It's Z-Art. But they call it ZART. So there's another store in Gallup and then one in Zuni that, you know, they buy directly from the artists.

April Unkestine: And sometimes in our community, we have that art walk where they open their houses and people come in and they welcome them into their houses and they watch them work and buy their art there, too. I'm not a part of that, but there are a lot of artists that do that in Zuni. But even though I'm not a part of that art walk, you know, when people come in and they ask for me, they tell me and I say, oh, well, send them up.

April Unkestine: So they'll come to our house and, you know, they'll buy directly from us, which is a lot better than buying from the store because then that helps them, that helps the artists.

Ranger Annie: When is the art walk?

April Unkestine: It's just any, you can go down there any day and say, you know, go to the art center and they'll let you know who's all on the art walk.

Ranger Annie: Oh, cool.

April Unkestine: And you'll know who's on the art walk. They have like colorful rocks piled up on their driveway. So that's how they tell them that, you know, this is the art walk.

Ranger Annie: Oh, cool. Yeah, Zuni Pueblo.

April Unkestine: Yeah, you can come down there. Yeah, just any time of the year. But oh, we have certain time of the year where all the stores are closed is when we're fasting. Usually it's one time in the wintertime, usually December, like maybe the second or the third week of December, and then the summertime. Well, the summertime isn't closed, huh? No, summertime isn't closed, just the wintertime.

April Unkestine: But some of us do have fasting where we can't sell, buy, you know, spend money, so.

Audience Member: And then you said your jewelry was in the movie, Bohemian Rhapsody? It was in the movie?

April Unkestine: No, it was on the red carpet on Brian May when he went to go receive the award for it.

Audience Member: Oh, he wore it?

April Unkestine: Yeah, he wore it on the red carpet, yeah.

April Unkestine: There was one other time on Dumb and Dumber, the first movie, Dumb and Dumber. The pretty part where he's on the toilet. Oh, man.

Ranger Annie: Yeah, so you said Brian May is also a royal astronomer for UK. Incredible.

April Unkestine: Yeah, I tried getting a hold of him, he won't respond back to me. He's laid back, friendly, and whatever, and so I emailed him and nothing.

Ranger Annie: There's still time.

Audience Member: Your name again is?

April Unkestine: Aprilene Unkestine is my full name, I just go by April.

Audience Member: And the last name was?

April Unkestine: Unkestine.

Audience Member: Okay, I remember seeing it, yeah.

April Unkestine: Everybody asks me if I'm from Europe because it sounds European.

Ranger Annie: Yeah, so she was saying that a lot of the jewelry, you have the four colors for Zuni jewelry. Do you use any colors outside of those?

April Unkestine: I use a lot of different colors. I know that a lot of our colors represent different directions, so I use a lot of colors and also outside of the colors that we use. So I just use a variety of colors, like I had showed the pink mussel, what are the others? Abalone. So it's just a variety of colors that I use.

April Unkestine: There's still traders that sell abalone shells, just like the turtle shell, it's been outlawed. You can't use the turtle shells, but it was used a long time ago. I still see some of the jewelry in museums that have the turtle shells, but we can't use those anymore.

April Unkestine: My older son is making fetishes. My younger daughter is starting to make jewelry. My older daughter, she makes jewelry, but not like mine. Hers are, she makes little turtle earrings. And my granddaughter, she does butterfly earrings, yeah. So she's starting to make jewelry, too. But all in all, my family, my kids, they have their own careers, but they still work on jewelry. My older son is basically just working on fetishes. His name should also be in one of the fetish books, too.

April Unkestine: Oh, and I have an 11-year-old grandson who started working on fetishes, too. So he's done some, so his grandpa's, you know, I guess their inspiration.

Ranger Annie: Cool. Nice.

April Unkestine: Any other questions?

Ranger Annie: Well, thank you so much, April, for coming out and doing this program, and thank you all for staying.

Ranger Jonah: Grand Canyon Speaks is a program hosted by Grand Canyon National Park and the Grand Canyon Conservancy. A special thanks to Aaron White for the theme music. This recording reflects the personal lived experiences of tribal members and do not encompass the views of their tribal nation or that of the National Park.

To learn more about Grand Canyon First Voices, visit www.nps.gov/GRCA. Here at Grand Canyon National Park, we are on the ancestral homelands of the 11 associated tribes of the Grand Canyon, these being the Havasupai Tribe, the Hualapai Tribe, the Navajo Nation, the Hopi Tribe, the Pueblo of Zuni, the Yavapai Apache Nation, the Kaibab Band of Paiute Indians, the Las Vegas Paiute Tribe, the Moapa Band of Paiutes, the Paiute Indian Tribe of Utah, and the San Juan Southern Paiute Tribe.

In this episode, listen to Rosabelle Shepherd speak with Ranger Dan about her experience as a Diné silversmith. She shares stories from her childhood, the inspiration for her work, and how she hopes the younger members of her family will give silversmithing a try.

---

TRANSCRIPT:

---

Rosabelle Teesyatoh Shepherd Speaks

Rosabelle Teesyatoh Shepherd: We are probably, probably like the very least important thing in this life. The very, and, and we think that we humans, we think that we're important.

Ranger Dan: Yeah.

Rosabelle Teesyatoh Shepherd: We think that we're above the four-legged and the winged ones and the plant life and all that. We're not. We're not.

Ranger Mark: Hello and welcome back to Grand Canyon Speaks. This is Ranger Mark.

Ranger Grace: And I'm Ranger Grace.

Ranger Mark: This episode is with Rosabelle Shepard. She is a fifth generation Diné silversmith and in this episode, she talks to Ranger Dan about her relationship to her craft.

Ranger Grace: They had to record this episode inside the Desert View Watchtower because several thunderstorms were rolling through the area. Rosabelle shares how her silversmithing work pulls from important elements like clouds, rain, thunder, and lightning.

Ranger Mark: She also talks about her family. She grew up watching her father silversmith, and now her grandson is learning the practice. So, enjoy listening to Rosabelle in this episode and thanks for tuning in.

[Music]

Rosabelle Teesyatoh Shepherd: (Speaks Diné). Normally, that's how Navajo people introduce themselves. We would say, we would give our greeting of yá'at'ééh. And some people say that means hello. I guess it could, but in our language, yá' is the universe, e'éh is ourself, and t'ééh is Mother Earth.

So when we use that greeting, we are acknowledging the universe, our father, ourselves, and Mother Earth. So it's kind of like, maybe like a blessing. So that's what yá'at'ééh means.

And then we say our name and always we introduce our clan. We introduce our mother's clan first, our father's clan, our maternal grandparents, and then paternal. So those four, we actually recite.

And then that's really our way of like building kinship among, you know, other Diné people. And then I just said that I'm originally from a place called (speaks Diné). And really, that's my middle name.

And (speaks Diné) is really from my grandfather, a place that he brought the family to during the summer for their livestock. It's actually a canyon, the Blue Canyon. And he brought the family there. And in the canyon, there were cottonwood trees. And they're still there. And he knew that there was water there.

And so he started digging around underneath the cottonwood, and he actually came upon a spring. And so when he found that spring, later on, the government came in and they built a well, a pump well. So we would go down there in the summer, and we would, you know, pump water for our sheep and our horses and our cattle.

And it had, like, a cement trough. And so, when he did that, and they named that place (speaks Diné) is actually cottonwood trees, and (speaks Diné) means underneath, and then tó is water.

And so they named my grandfather Isi'at'óni. So from that name is how, you know, when the census people came in, and they would ask the Navajo people, you know, what is your name? What is your last name? And we don't have any of that. And so they went and gave my mother's last name is (speaks Diné).

And so that's where that name comes from, (speaks Diné). And I use it in my signature. So my signature will be Teesyatoh Shepherd.

And then my silversmithing actually came from my father. So I always, you know, honor him by using my last name Shepherd. But that's, that's where I come from and that's who I am.

Ranger Dan: Thank you. Thank you very much.

Rosabell Teesyatoh Shepherd: Lengthy, huh?

Ranger Dan: It's good. It's a good intro. I wish I had kind of like a, an intro like that. I'm Dan from Minnesota. The land of many lakes. Like, that's about it kind of right there. We really like ranch dressing and casseroles and hot dish. But you already touched upon a little bit of like what your father used to do for silversmithing.

And as a cultural demonstrator for eight years here, you have been demonstrating your skill as a silversmith and you told me today that you kind of picked it up a little bit later in life, right?

Rosabelle Teesyatoh Shepherd: I did. I waited till I was 40. Being stubborn.

Ranger Dan: Yeah. Yeah. But it doesn't show that like, it shows that you have been doing this longer than since you've been 40. Like, it's very polished. It's very clean. And it holds true. It really does as an art form.

Rosabelle Teesyatoh Shepherd: Yeah. I, I had been around silversmithing really all my life. I remember about four years old, I would sit and watch my father silversmith. And I would watch my father, I would be playing outside and I would watch my father going back and forth to the Hogan.

And I would look up every now and then, and I'd see him, you know, come out, take something in. And then about 30 minutes later, he'd come over to where I was playing and he would say, ‘come and watch me silversmith’. And so I would go into the Hogan with him and he had an open fire going.

And he had a little blanket over here on the side and that was for me to sit. So I was like four years old and I would sit there and I don't, I don't remember like being bored or wanting to, you know, leave. And he would explain his process of what he was doing. And in that time, you know, our men were really silversmithing the old way where they would actually melt silver coins.

They would actually melt it and then they would pour it. And then they would take that and they would be hammering on it. And my father had a railroad tie and it was probably about that long because it's nice and polished.

And then the open fire was used for that melted silver strip that he, you know, melted. And he would take prongs and he would stick it in the open fire to reheat it up. And then I remember that metal being like pinkish and he'd bring it out and he'd pound, pound, pound, turn it around, pound, stick it back in, in the open flame.

So he was explaining to me what he was doing. So I actually watched him, you know, work like that.

I'm like right in the middle of five brothers, two older brothers and three younger brothers. And I was the only girl in the middle. So my brothers were actually silversmithing when they were teenagers. My older brothers were silversmithing by the time they were like 13 and 14.

And then my younger brothers, they were, I remember my youngest brother being like nine years old and he was like using a buffer. I mean, that thing is like, that thing's like dangerous!

Ranger Dan: You're talking the buffing wheel? On a motor?

Rosabelle Teesyatoh Shepherd: Yeah, that, you know, spinning, yeah.

And the last, and he was -- the last two were buffers and I remember watching them work like that. So I was, you know, around silversmithing throughout my life. And I didn't, I didn't even touch it till I was like 40.

My brothers were the ones that, you know, kept, you know, telling me, you know, ‘you need to do what we're doing’. You know, I was working, you know, a regular job and, and they would always, you know, comment to me, you know, ‘why are you like running your life down for the government? You know, you need to do what we're doing’. I got so tired of hearing that because I'd be like so tired from work and, and then they would start, you know, and so one day I just like stood up and I just said, you know, I can't do that.

And my older brother, you know, grabbed me by my shoulder and he kind of like shook me. And he said, ‘what do you mean you don't know how to do this? You grew up with it!’ And that's what made me start thinking.

I started thinking about it. And within like six months, I actually, like, made, you know, made a decision that I was going to do it. And I like actually changed my life around and I actually left the public health and, and I started, I started.

And when I started, it was, it was just like so easy. I knew what to do. I knew what process to do.

And I didn't even have to like go to them and say, you know, well, what do I do now? You know. I knew the process. I seen the process. My thinking, my, you know, like the designs that I wanted to do, you know, were like constantly in my head. And even now after, after 20, I, I'm going to be starting my 26th year in silversmithing.

And even now my mind is still like that. I still want to create. I still, you know, can see, can look at something and, and I have another idea that I could like add on to it. I'm still good.

Ranger Dan: Yeah! Excellent! Yeah!

Rosabelle Teesyatoh Shepherd: At Jewelry making.

Do you, do you fall asleep silversmithing? Do you just like hear the pounding of the hammer on the stump and like shaping the silver, creating rounds?

Rosabelle Teesyatoh Shepherd: I know Ariel sometimes will say, ‘I just love that sound of when you're cutting’, you know, and most people, when you're cutting, it makes that like screeching noise and it can make you like kind of shiver.

Ranger Dan: Yeah.

Rosabelle Teesyatoh Shepherd: And she always says, ‘I love that cutting noise that goes on, you know, all day long’.

Ranger Dan: Yeah. She would like that noise. Yeah.

Rosabelle Teesyatoh Shepherd: And then the stamping noise, you know, boom, boom! My family's used to it. I've never heard any of my family complain.

They did say, ‘take your worktable, can you put your worktable in your room?’ I was like, no, I'm going to keep it here in the dining room and kitchen area.

And it's still there.

Ranger Dan: Yeah. Nice.

That's good. So you talk about, you're still thinking about new ways to create pieces, to add in different patterns or try something brand new. Where do you find inspiration for your work and what do you normally incorporate into it?

Rosabelle Teesyatoh Shepherd: My work is really based on, you know, all the designs that I do really are based on elements. Elements that are very important to, you know, the Diné people, the Navajo people. The majority of my designs are going to be rain clouds, rain, plant life, lightning. Those really are the designs that I use and it's my way of acknowledging the elements.

You know, my parents, my grandparents, my ancestors, they lived a life where they gave offerings and did their prayers three times a day: early in the morning, midday, and sunset. Those three times of the day were when they made their offerings and their prayers and these prayers and offerings were made to the elements. And sometimes I think, man, you know, that's a lot.

You know, I fall short on that. You know, I'm not able, you know, to keep that, what do you, ritual or --

Ranger Dan: Devotion?

Rosabelle Teesyatoh Shepherd: you know, I fall short on it. So, I figured that, you know what, when I'm working is going to be my time of giving acknowledgement.

Ranger Dan: Yeah.

Rosabelle Teesyatoh Shepherd: And so, when I'm working, I, you know, in my way, you know, I'm giving acknowledgement to the elements. I feel better about that because I think a lot of the, you know, like my generation and younger, we've lost that regiment of, you know, the praying three times a day.

Ranger Dan: Yeah. Yeah. But it's also comforting to know that your work for 26 years now is being worn all around the world. I mean, you're here at the canyon, people from all over, our folks from Germany here. I mean, like, if you want to buy something, it'd be tomorrow. But it's, I mean, there's folks that are wearing your work and it's that acknowledgement that is then going around the world too. To different places, to different countries, to different cultures. And so, it's there.

It might not be three times a day, but it's every day. It's constantly, which is really cool to think about because before people were just here. Now we're really expanding and going all over.

Rosabelle Teesyatoh Shepherd: That’s true.

Ranger Dan: So, I think you're doing a fantastic job.

Rosabelle Teesyatoh Shepherd: Thank you. Thank you, Dan.

Ranger Dan: Yeah. And so, with the elements too, I think they really came through today because we've had two massive thunderstorms come through Desert View. And when we were talking today earlier, you were mentioning what you grew up with for having to acknowledge these storms with your family.

Can you tell us what that was like?

Rosabelle Teesyatoh Shepherd: So, how I grew up, I was telling Dan today, you know, like when it started to rain and people, you know, ended up being stuck in here, you know, everybody sat down. And I mentioned to my grandson, I said, you know, this is what we're supposed to do when it rains. We're supposed to actually sit down.

The way I grew up was anytime it was, you know, it would start to rain, you know, my brothers and I wanted to like run around in the rain. And my father would always, you know, ‘come in, come in right now, right now!’ And we'd have to go into the hogan and we would have to sit.

I mean, we had to sit. And we'd sit around, you know, in a circle. And my father would always say, ‘you are not supposed to be running around’.

You're not supposed to be, you know, even, we couldn't even like drink water or eat. We would just sit there and we would revere the rain. So, we would all get herded in and we'd sit there, you know, 30 minutes, 40 minutes.

And after it would stop raining, then my father would say, okay, you can go out and play in the water. And I remember during the summers, my brothers and I would herd sheep all day. We'd come home and my mother would have, you know, dinner for us.

We'd eat and we'd, you know, maybe stay up for an hour or so. And then we would be so tired that, you know, we were ready to, you know, go to sleep. And we would fall asleep.

And then in the middle of the night, like midnight, one o'clock, two o'clock, it would start raining. And my father would ‘wake up, wake up. You're not supposed to be laying down when it's raining’.

So, rain is actually sacred. It's a sacred movement and we're supposed to acknowledge it and revere it. And so, in the middle of the night, you know, we would all have to wake up and we would have to sit, sit and just, you know, we could talk a little bit, you know, but, you know, we couldn't like go back to sleep or lay back down.

And I would think, man, I am so tired. And we kind of drift off and my father would, you know, ‘don't sleep. You're not supposed to sleep’.

So, it was actually our way of revering it, revering the element of rain. I was telling Dan that anything of the cosmic nature too is actually a sacred movement. We cannot be in like the eclipse.

We can't be in it. We can't view it. We have to go inside our homes and, you know, close our curtain.

We can't see that darkness because it's sacred. So, things like that, you know, I still observe and I want my children to observe it and I want my grandchildren to observe it. And I hope that, you know, they, you know, with their own children and grandchildren, they'll, you know, keep, you know, observing it because it's really important.

It's very important. These elements are actually, they have so much power that we cannot acknowledge, you know, we can't turn away from it. They have so much power, you know, that without these elements, you know, we wouldn't even be living.

We wouldn't even be living. So, that's how important elements are to the Navajo people.

Ranger Dan: Yeah, they're integral.

And I remember you saying that you can't say a bad thing about them as well.

Rosabelle Teesyatoh Shepherd: Yeah, you know, like, ‘ah’, you know, ‘I hate that wind’ and stuff like that. I always tell my kids, don't, you know, you're not supposed to say that.

‘Oh man, the rain's coming down again. I hate it when it’, no, no, don't say that. Don't say that.

Don't, you know, you don't talk ill of the elements.

Ranger Dan: It's all interconnected in some, in some fashion.

Rosabelle Teesyatoh Shepherd: It is. We are probably, probably like the very least important thing in this life. The very, and, and we think that we humans, we think that we're important.

Ranger Dan: Yeah.

Rosabelle Teesyatoh Shepherd: We think that we're above the four-legged and the winged ones and the plant life and all that. We're not. We're not.

Ranger Dan: We all coexist.

Yeah. And so like your, your work, it reflects what your upbringings have been. It might not be as stringent as like your family observed growing up, but it's in your work and it has a place for sure.

And now when you're demonstrating here, you have Sage with you as well.

Rosabelle Teesyatoh Shepherd: My, my oldest grandson.

Ranger Dan: Yeah.

Rosabelle Teesyatoh Shepherd: My oldest grandson is now 29 and at 20, he wanted to learn what I was doing. And immediately we sat down and started and I started teaching him, you know, everything that I know, everything that I know, you know. I, I, I've been teaching him and I'm waiting for, I want all my grandchildren to know. I want, I want them to at least try it once or twice. If they can just do that, you know, I would, I would be okay with it.

Ranger Dan: Yeah. Yeah. And it's, it's really cool to know as well that you are a fifth generation silversmith and now Sage is the seventh generation silversmith as well.

But you also mentioned that, are you the only...?

Rosabelle Teesyatoh Shepherd: I, I might be the only female in, in my family that is a female silversmith. Because I never heard my father speak of, you know, any like, my grandmother, you know, none of them, you know, silversmith.

And so I might be. And if I am, I'm, I, I'm, I'm like, ‘cool, Rosabelle’.

Ranger Dan: It's pretty neat. It's awesome.

It's your work. It's your standalone. It's your mark and your family.

It holds, which is really, really cool to think about. But what does it, what does it mean for you to be here with Sage, seeing him be the seventh generation silversmith?

Rosabelle Teesyatoh Shepherd: I, I feel complete. I really do because I have at least one grandson who is interested and who has the ability and the capability to do it because he has that creative bug in him.

Ranger Dan: Yeah.

Rosabelle Teesyatoh Shepherd: In my old age, I'm happy with that. That I know that at least I have one grandson who is going to carry it on. And, and even now when he talks, he'll, when we have, you know, like our little conversations, you know, ‘I, I want my son, Zayden and Ry-Ry to, you know, learn silversmithing’. I said, ‘don't forget about your daughter too’.

So he already has in his mind that he wants them to learn that trade.

Ranger Dan: Oh, that's neat.

Rosabelle Teesyatoh Shepherd: Yeah.

Ranger Dan: That's great.

Rosabelle Teesyatoh Shepherd: Yeah.

Ranger Dan: It lives on.

Rosabelle Teesyatoh Shepherd: Yeah.

Ranger Dan: That's, that's beautiful. We know, we know you still got some years ahead, right? For the silversmith in here.

Rosabelle Teesyatoh Shepherd: I hope so. Some day I'll be hammering and I'm thinking, how much longer do you think I'm going to be hammering like this? I mean, a three pound hammer?

Ranger Dan: It's a lot to swing repeatedly. Yeah. Yeah. That's a whole lot.

Rosabelle Teesyatoh Shepherd: It's not just like tapping. It's like, boom, you know, and I'm, and then I'm at the buffing machine too. And I'm hanging on to my jewelry while I'm polishing it.

And then I think, dang, you know, I wonder how much longer I'm going to be doing this.

Ranger Dan: Yeah.

Rosabelle Teesyatoh Shepherd: Because I'm beginning to feel the aches.

Ranger Dan: Okay.

Rosabelle Teesyatoh Shepherd: Yeah. The muscles after working. Yeah. Before, you know, I hardly felt it, but now even from sitting, when I get up, you know, I'm like creaking. I'm stooped over until I straighten up.

Ranger Dan: and everything just pop, pop, pops right into place.

Rosabelle Teesyatoh Shepherd: And I think, man, I wonder how much, do you think I'm going to be silversmithing at 70? But I met one of my, um, old, old friends that I know. He silversmiths and he's like 85. And so I greeted him and I, and clan wise, he's my father. And I said, [speaks Diné].

‘Hey father, you know, what are you doing?’ He goes, ‘oh, I'm just out and about today trying to sell my work’. And I'm like, ‘are you still silversmithing?’ He goes, ‘yeah, yeah. I'm still silversmithing’.

And he told me, he goes, ‘when I first started and I was silversmithing’, he goes, ‘daughter, I've even been to Japan’.

Ranger Dan: Oh, cool.

Rosabelle Teesyatoh Shepherd: This is like 1950, 1960!

Ranger Dan: Yeah.

Rosabelle Teesyatoh Shepherd: Yeah. ‘I've been to Japan. I sold my work out there’.

Ranger Dan: That's cool.

Rosabelle Shepherd: Holy cow.

Ranger Dan: Yeah. I think, I definitely think you’ve got some demonstrations ahead of you for sure. More time to be back here at the Canyon and yeah.

Rosabelle Teesyatoh Shepherd: I'll see.

Ranger Dan: Well, whenever you do come back in the future, bring the rain again, because we will, uh, we will gladly welcome it. Yeah.

Rosabelle Teesyatoh Shepherd: Yeah. It's good. The rain is good.

Ranger Dan: Absolutely. Well, thank you very much, Rosabelle, for participating tonight. And it's always a pleasure to have you out here. It's great to see Sage as well.

When, uh, he's demonstrating and seeing his work come so far by spending time with you and seeing his work just get polished up and yeah. So I can see the aspect of you feeling complete in, in all of this being passed on. I think that's really neat to see.

Thank you very much. Yeah. And have a wonderful safe evening tonight, folks, and watch out for storms while you're here at Grand Canyon.

So thank you.

[Applause]

Rosabelle Teesyatoh Shepherd: I had, I had a customer one time I was, um, I was swinging my, um, hammer and he walks by and he says, a woman with that, a woman with a big hammer like that scares me.

[Laughter]

Outro: Grand Canyon Speaks is a program hosted by Grand Canyon National Park and the Grand Canyon Conservancy.

A special thanks to Aaron White for the theme music. This recording reflects the personal lived experiences of tribal members and do not encompass the views of their tribal nation or that of the national park. To learn more about Grand Canyon First Voices, visit www.nps.gov/GRCA.

Here at Grand Canyon National Park, we are on the ancestral homelands of the 11 associated tribes of the Grand Canyon. These being the Havasupai tribe, the Hualapai tribe, the Navajo nation, the Hopi tribe, the Pueblo of Zuni, the Yavapai Apache nation, the Kaibab band of Paiute Indians, the Las Vegas Paiute tribe, the Moapa band of Paiutes, the Paiute Indian tribe of Utah, and the San Juan Southern Paiute tribe.