Grand Canyon Speaks

In this episode, Ranger Eliana speaks with collegiate runner, Ali Upshaw, who is Diné from Fort Defiance on the Navajo reservation. She talks about how she started her athletic career with family who are also runners and made it to her dream college team through some intense training along the way. Through the hard work of it all, she describes how running keeps her grounded, accomplish big goals, and stay connected to her culture.

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TRANSCRIPT:

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[Ali Upshaw]

And so I used to see like all the girls, all the women that went through the program and ran at nationals wear that turquoise jersey. And so in high school, when I had found out that they had offered me a spot on the team, I just kept writing down that whole summer, I want to wear the turquoise jersey, I want to wear the turquoise jersey, because I wanted it so bad. And so that's how things really kicked off.

[Meranden]

Hello, everyone. Welcome to Grand Canyon Speaks. This is Meranden.

[Lakin]

And this is Lakin.

[Meranden]

We hope you have been enjoying season three so far. We were very fortunate to speak with so many amazing athletes over the summer.

[Lakin]

On that note, this episode is about Ali Upshaw. She is Diné and from Fort Defiance on the Navajo Reservation.

[Meranden]

She spoke with Ranger Eliana about how running has been in her family for generations and is very important to her culture.

[Lakin]

Allie describes the self-discipline of the sport and how her hard work has helped her run for her dream school and even breaking school records at Northern Arizona University.

[Meranden]

Thank you all for tuning in and enjoy this episode with Ali Upshaw.

[Ali Upshaw]

Hello, everybody. (Introduces self in Navajo) My name is Ali Upshaw. I am from Fort Defiance, Arizona, and I currently go to school at Northern Arizona University where I also run cross-country and track, and I am studying public health.

[Ranger Eliana]

Wonderful. I want to ask you, have you been to Grand Canyon before?

[Ali Upshaw]

I've been here a couple of times.

My first time I've ever been to the Grand Canyon was in high school. And my stepdad, he lives pretty close to here. I grew up like in Flagstaff pretty much his whole life.

So he was the first one to ever bring me to the Grand Canyon. So that was my first experience, but it took me kind of a while to get here. But I've been here a couple of times with people in the past.

And the nice thing about Northern Arizona University's cross-country team is that we usually have our preseason out here. So sometimes in like the week before school starts, our coaches, they'll take us here to go for a four-mile run. So we do it along the ridge.

And so we all kind of like have our little team bonding moment with the team and getting to know each other here at the Grand Canyon. And we usually like sit out on the sunset in the first week of our preseason. So that's what we do.

So I've been here twice with the team before, so I have some good memories with the canyon.

[Ranger Eliana]

Wow, that's so awesome. What does it feel like to run along the rim of the canyon?

[Ali Upshaw]

Oh, it's a little scary. You gotta really watch your footing with a lot of the trails here because it's so rocky. But it's fun. It's definitely a lot different feel than a regular run where you're just focusing on training.

You can really relax and just focus on the view and being with teammates. So it's really fun.

[Ranger Eliana]

That's so awesome. That sounds like a great team-building activity. Also just coming out here, just for reference for you guys, where Ali is from is pretty far from here.

So the Navajo Nation is about the size of West Virginia. Now she lives closer in Flagstaff, but yeah, this is like a really big area. So I'm so glad that she's here.

I want to ask you, so we spent some time talking earlier today here. What was it like coming back today?

[Ali Upshaw]

It was really fun. I spent the day with you mostly and with Park Ranger Kelli Jones. So I had a really great time with you guys today and especially talking about the canyon and her perspective of everything and the tower.

So it was really, really interesting to just listen and walk around and just be out here for a different purpose than running and just training-wise or just sightseeing-wise. It really brought a different perspective for me. So it was really fun.

[Ranger Eliana]

That's so awesome. I feel like the canyon is so different every time you visit and for me, every single time I look at it, it's different. So talking about running, I'm curious, how did you get started with running?

[Ali Upshaw]

Yeah. So I got started with running kind of like in early age. My whole family, they ran.

So funny enough, my grandpa, he used to coach my mom in high school. And then when I got to high school, my mom ended up coaching me in high school. So all of my uncles, my aunties, they were runners.

And my grandpa used to talk about my mom all the time, all the time about being so fast. So just being a very fast runner in general and how much she used to run and how much races she won. And she also ran at the state meet and she has her own state championship title individually.

And I remember he used to talk about it all the time. And it used to like, I think the very competitive side of me kind of came out in that moment where he would continuously talk about her all the time, all the time. And I used to think to myself, I want to, I want to beat my mom, I want to run faster than her.

And I kept thinking that in my head and every time he would bring it up, I would always think like, I want to be faster than her, I want to be like her. And I want to be faster than my uncles and my aunties. So I really started to get into running when my grandpa told me those stories.

And so that's kind of like how it all began.

[Ranger Eliana]

That's so cool that it's like a family thing. Your mom sounds really, really awesome from some of the things you told me earlier today. Is she like a role model for you?

Can you tell me about like any role models that you have in your life?

[Ali Upshaw]

Yeah. So my mom definitely plays a big role model influence in my life. Not only is she, was she a good runner in high school, but you know, she was really smart and educationally, she went on to get her doctorate degree in veterinary science and has her own nonprofit on the Navajo Nation and her own clinic where she works out of with large animals and small animals.

And so she's one of like the only full time veterinarians on the Navajo Nation, which is also something she does. And so I find a lot of influence from her, not only athletically, but academically as well. And, you know, my grandpa used to keep in mind a lot of like the role models that have come through Navajo Nation and, you know, the way runners, you know, big name runners, you know, names like Alvina Begay, Billy Mills, all native runners that have run at such a high level.

And they've always, I guess, shown me that, like, if they can do it, I can do it too. So they definitely played a strong role in allowing me to pursue my dreams.

[Ranger Eliana]

That's so awesome. I was wondering if you could tell me a little bit about the importance that running has for your tribal community or for your culture.

[Ali Upshaw]

Yeah, so there's a lot of cultural ties that our community has to running. And, you know, not only is it viewed and very popular in competition, but it's also present in a lot of like our cultural ceremonies. And, you know, growing up, I was always taught that running was a form of prayer and a blessing.

And my grandpa used to get me up really early in the morning because they say that when you're up that early and you see like, if you've ever been like up really, really early and you see like the the blue hue of like the horizon and that light, they say that's like when the holy people are out and that's when you should be running and that's when you should be just out there running in general. And so that was a big piece he used to tell me growing up. And so, you know, growing up in high school, that was a big thing for me was the cultural ties and not only, you know, viewing running as a sport, but also as a cultural value in my life that has kept me grounded.

[Ranger Eliana]

That's so cool. OK, so I want to get into a little bit of the nitty gritty here. So can you tell me how you kicked off your collegiate career in running?

[Ali Upshaw]

Yeah, so it it pretty much all started in high school. I think when I really started to compete more and get better, I started to realize, you know what, maybe I am pretty good at this and it can, you know, I think not until like my first college offer, I really started to realize that, hey, I can go to college to do this and I can continue to doing to do what I love. And I wanted to run Division One, you know, when I had first gotten into my junior year.

And I made that a priority for myself that I wanted I wanted to be there on the big stage early on. I didn't have, now that I think about it, I didn't have a whole lot of offers to begin with, but I had like a sliver of a chance to run for the University of New Mexico in Albuquerque. And so the coach gave me a partial scholarship to run out there, even though it wasn't a full one.

So but, you know, at the time, UNM was pretty good running school and they had just gotten like their first or one of like their national titles on the women's side in cross country. And they had big names like Wynnie Collotti and Edna Kurgat that all ran internationally and were really good runners. And I really wanted to be a part of that championship atmosphere, like so bad.

I remember when I first got the offer, I closed out every other offer that came my way. I was like, I'm going to the University of New Mexico. And if you've ever seen like UNM's national championship jerseys, they're different from like their regular season ones.

Cool thing about UNM is that they have very unique colored jerseys. They have the red and turquoise combo and not many schools actually have that colorway. So it ties back to like the Albuquerque culture, New Mexico culture and slivers of Native people and their cultural significance of just Albuquerque as a whole with the color of turquoise.

And so I used to see like all the girls, all the women that went through the program and ran at nationals wear that turquoise jersey. And so in high school, when I had found out that they had offered me a spot on the team, I just kept writing down that whole summer. I want to wear the turquoise jersey.

I want to wear the turquoise jersey because I wanted it so bad. And so that's how things really kicked off was like I had gotten a small offer from the University of New Mexico. And then when the coaching staff had changed like in 2023, everything kind of changed.

Everything took a shift. The coach that had recruited me had left. And so I was kind of left with a little bit of unknown.

And I decided that I wanted to go somewhere with a program still in place. And, you know, intact and still was like had a good foundation instead of one that was like shaky with the coaching change. So I decided to go to Northern Arizona University to run for Coach Mike Smith.

So that's where I've been for the last two years.

[Ranger Eliana]

That's so cool. I love that you say that you didn't get a ton of offers, but you got one that mattered the most. Yeah.

And then when you moved schools, like you continued to make the best of it. And it sounds like you've done a lot of really cool stuff at NAU, even outside of your running. Can you tell us a little bit about like your studies?

What did you major in?

[Ali Upshaw]

Yeah. So throughout my undergrad at the University of New Mexico, I was a community health education major. And then when I got to Northern Arizona University, I decided to enter into the public health program.

So that's what I've been doing for the last two years. And so I graduated with my bachelor's in public health. And so I'm currently enrolled into the master's of public health program at NAU.

And the nice thing about it is that there's a health promotion branch, so they have an emphasis in indigenous health. So that's one thing I'm going into this fall.

[Ranger Eliana]

That's so awesome. Okay. So you told me before about your capstone project, and I thought it was super, super cool.

So could you tell us a little bit more about that and how it connects with your running?

[Ali Upshaw]

Yeah. So this was a topic that came up earlier today, but with our capstone, we have a bunch of different organizations that come in and partner with NAU in creating a three-week intervention program that is in the health sector. So there's organizations like different local elementary schools, and the one that I was able to work with was Girls on the Run.

So I don't know if you're familiar with Girls on the Run, but it's a national nonprofit that works specifically with young girls in building self-esteem and confidence. So they have a bunch of different grades and age groups that they work with in their programs and really in the holistic side of running. And so it was actually a group of Native students that were able to design a three-week intervention program that centered on increasing Indigenous youth's presence within the program.

So one way we really did that was highlighting a Native student-athlete that runs for Coconino Community College, and her name is Amber Woody. And I actually went to high school with her, but we actually did a digital storytelling thread, and we did it primarily to kind of highlight her journey throughout her running career and more so trying to relate a lot of her stories and her values with a lot of the Native girls that do live in Northern Arizona. You know, there's a lot of Native population there, and we really wanted to try and get them involved with Girls on the Run and increase Indigenous presence within that way.

So that's the one thing we did. And then we also did an infographic and then a presentation at a local school. So it was really fun.

That was the highlight of my spring semester.

[Ranger Eliana]

That's so awesome. That's such an important goal to strive for, and you're doing such good work. Is working with Native youth like a passion of yours?

[Ali Upshaw]

Yeah, for sure. In the past, I've worked as a camp facilitator for Wings of America, and so that's been a really like a turning point for me in understanding what health strategies can look like for Native youth, especially in thinking about how it can be culturally relevant to them, to their cultural identity, because we have so many different prevention methods, strategies, but none that are really tailored towards Native people and considers a lot of like their backgrounds and their values. So that's one thing that I'm really have been interested in, in my studies is trying to figure out how to fit those programs into a more culturally relevant way for our people.

[Ranger Eliana]

Yeah, that's so cool. I love that you, you know, you're going to school and you're studying something that's so important, but you're tying it back to helping your community and helping young people succeed. I was wondering if you could tell me a little bit about like, you mentioned that you're going for your master's in public health as well.

What kind of like dream world, what would you want to do with that? Or like, what kind of impact would you like to have on the world with that?

[Ali Upshaw]

Wow, that's a good question. I think one thing for me, my dream world is that all Indigenous youth can have a high adequate access to resources to leverage their, I guess their pursuit of running collegiately or going to college or, you know, pursuing their athletic goals, because we center so much on education. And, you know, it would be such a dream to see a center that focuses on the athletic pursuits of Native kids because, you know, sports play so big of a role, like not in my life, but, you know, it's evident in the way that it provides a sense of belonging, identity, and gives a chance for Native kids to explore and connect back to their cultural identity, especially with running is so tied closely to our culture. And so, you know, sports play such a big role for Native youth. So that would be like my dream is like there's just a center, a health center that focuses on Native youth's athletic pursuit.

[Ranger Eliana]

Yes, that's so awesome. I love that. And I love that you want to help young people.

I feel like it's so, so beneficial if you can connect with your culture as well as with sports because they're so good for you, right? I want to ask you another like big question. If you could give any advice to Native youth when it comes to running or any pursuits they might want to go after, like what would you say to them?

[Ali Upshaw]

Yeah, I like that question too. Oh my gosh, I think I would just say that, you know, there's a lot of, I guess, doubt that comes with pursuing your athletic dreams, your educational dreams. But I guess the one thing that I would say that's really helped me in continuing my goals is that there's a calling and there's like there's a dream and there's a calling for a reason.

And that is literally like you have the capacity to go for that dream. And there's, you know, you're so capable of pursuing that. And so I think that's one thing I would like keep saying to young kids because there's very ambitious kids out there, there's very ambitious people that have a thought that lingers in their mind and it's there for a reason.

So I would just say that like it's there for a reason and that you should pursue it and you're so capable of doing it.

[Ranger Eliana]

Wow, that's so important to hear. I think a lot of a lot of people, not just kids, but everyone needs to hear that and feel empowered to reach their goals. I want to highlight one of your big wins here.

And that's the Big Sky Conference Championships from 2024. So I was wondering if you could just tell us like a little bit about that race, like what you won and how that impacted you or how that experience was for you.

[Ali Upshaw]

Yeah, so that was probably definitely one of my favorite races of the season. So if you don't know kind of like how race schedules work, so there's a there's a regular season and then you have your conference race and then your regional race and then the national race. So conference is kind of like the a lot of the people that are within the conference.

And so I run, so NAU is a part of like the Big Sky Conference. So, yeah, I don't know how much to say, but it was really fun because I've never, ever won a cross country race during my time in college. So that was actually my first ever like win in the college race like ever.

And it was really fun. It happened in my last my last season because college running is so hard. It's so tough.

There's so many, you know, it keeps getting better and better every year. So for me, it was a special moment because, you know, we had a race plan kind of like set in for that race. And so we my family got to be there to to see me have my first win.

So it was really fun. I really did enjoy that race.

[Ranger Eliana]

So, yeah, that's so awesome. That's a big win. And when you win something like that, does your team or your family or do you yourself treat yourself to anything?

Was there any like celebration?

[Ali Upshaw]

Some of those races, we some of them are just like very gritty. At the time it was in Idaho. So in the fall, so it was like kind of cold.

So the nice thing was that, you know, our team won and they let us go back to the hotel. They let us go back to the hotel. A lot of the times we don't get to go back to the hotel because it's same day trip back home to Flagstaff.

So we'll go straight from the race back to Flagstaff. And so you're sitting on the plane for like you're sitting down for a long time because we fly to Phoenix and then we have to drive back to Flagstaff. And we do that all after racing.

So, you know, we won that race and they let us go back to the hotel to take a shower and we left an hour after. But my grandma, she was really happy for me. She brought me like a bag of pinons.

So she's like, go ahead and take it with you. And I was like, OK, thank you. So that was what we did after.

[Ranger Eliana]

That's so nice. And can you for the audience, let us know what are pinons?

[Ali Upshaw]

Oh, so those are a lot of the trees that you see. Let's see. So there's a pinon tree there.

So a lot of the times, like around, would you say August, September is a lot of times when the pinon nuts, they'll fall down from the tree. And so the way you kind of like prepare that is a lot of people prepare it very differently. But my family, we use a lot of salt.

And we stir it like in a skillet. So we go pinon picking like during around that time. So yeah, they just fall from the pinon tree.

And a lot of times people will sell them. But yeah, they're pretty good. So you would eat them as like regular sunflower seeds.

[Ranger Eliana]

It sounds so good. And I love that we have the trees right here. If you guys could see them to anyone listening to this podcast, they're like our short little pine trees here.

But this actually segues perfectly into my next question. So when we do these interviews, we like to ask a fun question. So I want to ask you, what is your favorite native food?

[Ali Upshaw]

My favorite native food. Wow. So there's a lot.

But I would say my favorite is it's called Neeshjizhii stew. So a lot of times it's like steamed corn. And then you'll have like with mutton with like sheep's meat.

And so it's that's like my favorite meal like ever. So like stew, all the stews that my grandma makes. That's my favorite.

I'm not big on like, I mean, I do love a navajo taco here and there. But stew, that's yeah. Sometimes I go back like home and I'm like, Grandma, like I'm coming back home and she'll be like cooking away and I'll be like, okay, thanks.

[Ranger Eliana]

That sounds so good right now. And you mentioned sheep. I saw that you grew up on a ranch.

So can you tell us like about what it's like where you're from? Like growing up on a ranch?

[Ali Upshaw]

Yeah. So I yeah, I grew up on a small ranch. We have like sheep, cows, horses.

My sister's really involved with barrel racing. So she does that with rodeo. But yeah, growing up, I used to remember this.

I was so busy in high school, like two times busier than I was in college, honestly, because it would be like, go to school at 8am. And then you spend all day three o'clock. And then you have practice from like three to six.

And then 6pm, you go back home, let's feed the horses, chase the sheep back in, chase the cows back in. And it would be done like when it's dark outside at that point. And that was like literally a weekday for me was like doing that consecutively.

And I always remember it. And I think about it sometimes and I'm like, dang. I was really, really busy.

And even when I go back home, I still get put to work. So yeah, so sometimes there's my grandma, she does not believe in rest days, honestly. She does not believe in rest days.

And sometimes we joke around with her like, dang, like, how are you like still going like sit down? And she's just still going. And but yeah, growing up on a ranch was like, definitely a part of myself that I guess, that I kind of, not many people, I guess, know.

So every time I'm, yeah, I guess in the city, it's so different. That life is so different, like urban life and res life. And going up on a ranch, they're different.

So every time I get to go home, I get kind of a little humble awakening of like, just going, going, going. And then I'm in this city where I'm like this urban kid and I get to, you know, take, lay down without getting yelled at.

[Ranger Eliana]

That's so funny. And it's so funny that you say that life was harder in high school than in college when you were running. Yeah.

Also, because you mentioned like, being able to rest at the hotel as your reward for winning. I can tell you work really, really hard. I want to ask you, so like, you mentioned this summer, you're not running.

What is it like to not be running for a summer? Because you're such a hard worker. Like, is that weird?

[Ali Upshaw]

Yeah, it is a little weird. Like, kind of, you know, I've taken the summers a lot more seriously in the past in terms of training. You know, I do run like consecutively still, but like not on the level in which like I've done past summers because I don't have a cross country season anymore.

So I've run out of all of my cross country eligibility. So for five consecutive years, I've done like my summers have just been filled with training and like focusing on the fall. And so it's really weird for me.

Like, I've been really trying to step out of like my comfort zone and like do new things and like kind of step away from training. But it's definitely a new period of my life where I'm trying to get used to it with like not having a cross country season. So yeah, it's a shift for sure.

[Ranger Eliana]

Yeah, I can definitely speak to that as well. I'm not a runner, but having graduated college recently, you know, it's like such a pivotable time for our identities as well. You kind of told me a little bit before about like what your future with running might look like.

I was wondering if you were interested in speaking about that at all, because like there's actually, she told me there's a lot of business that goes into a running career. And I think that's so interesting.

[Ali Upshaw]

Yeah, I know the business side of running is so, it's so complicated in different ways. It's definitely something that I don't really, I'm not fully knowledgeable in. But, you know, there are some, you know, post collegiate opportunities to run professionally and insights for me, which I really do want to do.

And that's been like a goal ever since, you know, halfway through my college career. And, you know, that's been a goal for me. And that's something I really want to do.

But there's a lot of logistics that go behind it. And yeah, the business world is a little scary with, you know, a lot of things. There's a lot of language that's used differently in the business world of running that I kind of got to get used to.

So yeah, I have a couple of opportunities, insights, but I also might pursue a half year to run my outdoor season, because I don't have any more cross country or indoor. So if you don't know, a lot of like collegiate athletes, they run all year. So it's cross country, then they have indoor in the wintertime.

And then in the spring, it's straight into outdoor season. On the outdoor track, you get all three seasons throughout the year. Whereas like basketball, it's just that season in, you know, starting from winter all the way to spring.

So I only have outdoor left. And so I'm still working that whole thing out of should I go back to finish that? Or should I work with what I have now in terms of like value?

So, you know, the last, they say in the business world of running that, you know, you're as good as your last race, which kind of sucks with the kind of like the credibility you build throughout your college career that kind of like sets you up for post collegiate opportunities, which is a little hard and comes with a little bit of pressure to do well. But I would say that like, you know, talking with other people that I did set myself up pretty good to explore different avenues, but it's it's very still kind of like in the unknown.

[Ranger Eliana]

Yeah, that definitely sounds stressful. Like there could be a lot of pressure on you. But you're also so talented and you have so much going on in your life, like with your studies as well.

Going back for your master's is such a big deal. And I'm so, so impressed. I'm like, I don't know, no matter what you do, I know it's going to be great.

Thank you. Oh, of course. Okay, so I'm going to kind of wrap it up here before we open it up if the audience has any questions.

But I just want to ask, like, is there anything else you want to leave us with or leave like all the people listening to this with? That's a big question.

[Ali Upshaw]

No, I'm really glad everybody came. I really appreciate that. And this is really such a unique experience for me being at the Canyon is like in for a podcast that I guess I would never thought I'd be a part of is something.

Yeah, just so new to me. And it brings a different perspective of what the Canyon means, you know, you know, Kelli had mentioned a lot about like, you know, the whole purpose for the podcast. And why it's called Grand Canyon speaks is, you know, letting the Canyon know that we as native people are still here.

And we're speaking into the Canyon and letting it know that we're still here. And so that something that has really resonated with me during my time here and just a whole different approach to what I usually come to the Canyon for.

[Ranger Eliana]

That's so awesome. Thank you so much for coming here and, and sharing your voice with us. This is a big day for me to my first interview.

And Ali is so, so wonderful. She's so talented. And she's so easy to talk to.

So I really, really appreciate you coming here and speaking to the Canyon with us.

[Ali Upshaw]

Thank you so much. And you did really good for your first interview too. So yeah.

[Ranger Eliana]

Oh, thank you. Okay, our work is not done yet. I want to see if anybody here in our audience has any questions for Ali before the sun sets.

[Audience]

I was just curious to know, did you end up being faster than your mom? Since I know that was a goal.

[Ali Upshaw]

Yes. Yeah, no, I joke about it with her because my grandpa used to just talk nonstop about her and I was like, I made it a mission to just be faster. But yeah, no, I appreciate that question.

[Meranden]

What has the difference been from running on the rez? And then running in a place where there's not a lot of indigenous runners?

[Ali Upshaw]

Yeah, no, that was a really big shift for me. And when I first left the res, it's so different. I feel like especially because, you know, running on for all native high school, you run with a lot of other Navajo kids and you train with a lot of Navajo kids.

And you're so used to that environment. And you're taken from one place that you've known for so long and you've been around the people for so long. And then you go to a completely urban area where all the runners are non-native and even some international.

In my first year running, we had girls from Norway, Germany, and all different places that I wasn't used to. And I think the main difference was just the culture shock of just getting used to an urban environment and kind of like almost feeling lonely, in a sense, being the only one that's going through this. So we had a Native student-athlete summit in Indiana like two, three weeks ago.

And that was a conversation that a lot of Native student-athletes had at that summit where it was like, sometimes you do feel lonely. And it's really hard to connect with some other non-native athletes that don't know your background. But that's the one thing about sports and running is that it really keeps you grounded in goal setting and your personal identity of kind of like almost in a way like running has a very cultural significance to me.

And it's like when I'm running, I can always know. I always know that I'm still connected to my culture. I'm still doing the same thing that I'm doing that I would be doing at home.

So I guess, yeah, just that culture shock of everything was the main difference.

[Audience]

I have a question. There's been a big theme in this talk of like working hard and glimmers of rest. And I'm curious as to what rest does look like for you.

How do you take care of yourself as a runner? And almost going all the way to like what's advice you would give to other runners of how to take care of themselves?

[Ali Upshaw]

Yeah, that's a good question. I think rest for me, especially with, I guess, higher level running competition. That's one thing our coaches like really stress upon is like rest and recovery.

But I would say like with training, I usually leave a day where I'm completely off. I don't keep going consecutively every day throughout the week. And I guess one thing is you have to like really listen to your body.

It's not bad to take a rest day and it's not bad to like miss a day or so. And I think that's one thing that I would give advice about. But in those heavier mileage week for me, it's like completely off of my feet like and making sure that I have like a lot of food throughout the day, I guess I would say.

So, yeah.

[Ranger Eliana]

Well, thank you so much, Ali. Again, I do want to say that I feel like you're such a great role model for young people. And yeah, all that you do is really so, so amazing.

So, thank you for being here. And thank you to our audience as well. And we will be here if you guys have any questions for us.

So, thanks, guys. Have a good night.

[Ranger Jonah]

Grand Canyon Speaks is a program hosted by Grand Canyon National Park and the Grand Canyon Conservancy. A special thanks to Aaron White for the theme music. This recording reflects the personal lived experiences of tribal members and do not encompass the views of their tribal nation or that of the National Park.

To learn more about Grand Canyon First Voices, visit www.nps.gov/grca. Here at Grand Canyon National Park, we're on the ancestral homelands of the 11 associated tribes of the Grand Canyon. These being the Havasupai Tribe, the Hualapai Tribe, the Navajo Nation, the Hopi Tribe, the Pueblo of Zuni, the Yavapai Apache Nation, the Kaibab Band of Paiute Indians, the Las Vegas Paiute Tribe, the Moapa Band of Paiutes, the Paiute Indian Tribe of Utah, and the San Juan Southern Paiute Tribe.

Welcome to the first episode of Season 3! This episode is about Kyle Sumatzkuku, a Hopi runner from Mishongnovi. ALCC intern, Meranden, talks with Kyle about his running journey and what it was like to qualify and run in the Boston Marathon. He also talks about his experiences becoming a cross-country coach and mentoring youth through Wings of America.

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TRANSCRIPT:

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Kyle Sumatzkuku: It pretty much opened my eyes and it gave me a perspective about how truly Hopi running is not only just about this physical capability, but pretty much just running with your heart.

Ranger Grace: Welcome back to season three of Grand Canyon Speaks. This is Ranger Grace.

Ranger Dan: And this is Ranger Dan.

Ranger Grace: In this episode, Meranden sat down with Kyle Sumatzkuku to discuss his career as a runner.

Ranger Dan: He shared Hopi's connections to running and how it's a significant aspect of Hopi culture.

Ranger Grace: Kyle grew up running at the Moenkopi Day School and is now competing in races like the Boston Marathon.

Ranger Dan: Take a listen as Kyle reflects on his journey and we hope you enjoy.

Meranden: Kyle, would you like to go ahead and introduce yourself?

Kyle Sumatzkuku: [Speaks Hopi] Hello, good evening, everyone. My name is Kyle Sumatzkuku. My Hopi name is Leetayo. It means Fox or Running Fox. That name was given to me when I was initiated. And that name was given by the Coyote clan, who are my ceremonial parents. I am of the Corn clan. I am from the village of Mishongnovi, generally known as Second Mesa. But I do live in the village of Moenkopi, generally known as Third Mesa.

Kyle Sumatzkuku: And pretty much, we are matriarchal and matrilineal tribe. So we always follow our mom's side of the family. So I am born from the Corn clan. And for my father's side is Sun clan, who is from the village of Moenkopi. Yeah, so it's a great honor and a good pleasure to be here to share our evening with you all. So I am 29 years old. I don't look like it. So yeah.

Meranden: Awesome. So I'm really happy to have you here, Kyle. Just really off the bat, have you been to the Grand Canyon before?

Kyle Sumatzkuku: Yes, I have been here since when I was going to school at the Moenkopi Day School. We used to come here for field trips and get on the train and just visit these sites here, especially the Watchtower. And it was, all in all, like a really good childhood memory of mine, even though it's just in our backyards of Hopi land and Diné land. So it's always a pleasure to come back. But then again, we just have to be careful when we visit this place, because it's just a very sacred place to us. We kind of treat this place very gentle and a gentle spirit that lies here. So it's always good to come back and be here near the canyon, near the sun and the skies. So yeah.

Meranden: Awesome. Yeah. And I know, like you mentioned, it's really, really sacred. And I mentioned in the beginning, it has a lot of different perspectives through these different tribes. They're not all the same. They all have different meanings, different stories, things like that.

Meranden: So we always mention to our guests, our visitors here, that you treat it as a living landscape. You treat it as your own home. You don't leave trash here. You take care of it just like anything else. So like I mentioned, it's very sacred to everybody here. A lot of tribes call the canyon home.

Meranden: So right off the bat, like I mentioned, this season for season three, we talked about it having a theme of Indigenous athletes. Something that you do is running. And that's something I would really, really like to highlight today. So how did you get started with your running?

Kyle Sumatzkuku: I started running when I was a little kid. Just running in the village at recess at the Moenkopi Day School. And, you know, just doing it during our free time and downtime. And just having fun with our childhood friends at the Moenkopi Day School. Because the Moenkopi Day School had like a big giant compound. And you can just absolutely just run a lot of miles on it.

Kyle Sumatzkuku: And, you know, it was definitely a childhood core to me. Because the Moenkopi Day School is literally in our backyard. And we can always just visit that little recess compound. And just be active and have fun with our friends. And, you know, yeah.

Meranden: Yeah, I remember that too. Because, I mean, we grew up in the same area. And we used to go there with my siblings too. And play in that same place. And, you know, like everywhere back home, there's a lot of different places you can go running. And we were always told not to be lazy. So we always went out and went running and things like that. So, you know, like I mentioned, running is very, very important. Not just for your health, much like the canyon as well. It's super important to the tribes here. But what importance does running have to Hopi?

Kyle Sumatzkuku: Ever since I started running as a kid. And just pretty much going through the journey as being born. And getting initiated. And getting older. And becoming more mature. I didn't start to take running seriously when I was between 6th to 7th grade.

Kyle Sumatzkuku: By that time frame, I was already pretty much being shared the knowledge of. That there was a ceremonial races going on at my home village. And it pretty much opened my eyes. It gave me a perspective about how truly Hopi running is not only just about this physical capability. But it has its spiritual, mental. And pretty much just running with your heart.

Kyle Sumatzkuku: And I have uncles who pretty much took me in. And showed me the whole Hopi art of running. And especially with my dad. My dad shared a lot of stories about why we do these ceremonial races. And these various races that we have on Hopi, it takes a lot of maturity. And to understand why we do it. And we have these various races. That we have snake dance race. We have the flute dance race. And we have the basket dance race. And we have clan races in our home village. And pretty much it represents all of walk of life.

Kyle Sumatzkuku: And it makes the connection back here to the canyon. So I didn't start doing those races when I started to understand and get much more older. Yeah, so it just took a lot of maturity. And clearly, what's the more important reason to carry on with those races until this day.

Meranden: Yeah, and when you run these races, are there a lot of other individuals who run with you as well?

Kyle Sumatzkuku: Yeah, so we have pretty much good runners back at home. But all throughout Hopi. So it's always good to see their faces again. And they're always eager to like pretty much show up. And just have a grand old time. And just place down some prayers for not only for ourselves. Not only for our families and our loved ones. But pretty much for all living things out there. And having it connect with the ceremony itself too as well. Because it brings the might of the earth not only to our earth. But to people's hearts too as well.

Meranden: Yeah, we've talked about how running is not just for your health. But it's also a form of prayer. We do it for moisture. We do it for a lot of cultural reasons. So that running aspect is very important to Hopi. You know, you mentioned these races. And you didn't really start getting serious with it at a younger age. Until, you know, you start going to school. What was running like for you as a student growing up? Like middle school or high school? What was that running experience like?

Kyle Sumatzkuku: Ever since I started running at the Moenkopi Day School, I didn't really take running that serious. Matter of fact, a true story here. When I started running at the Moenkopi Day School, I would always start leading out the runners. I would lead the runners. And then by then, probably halfway, I would see like one of my teammates or my good friends. My good buddies who are like hunched over or hurt.

Kyle Sumatzkuku: Or you know, my empathy. Me, I'm showing compassion to my fellow running mates. I would stop and I would go back and check on them while the other runners would pass. And I didn't know anything about competition back then. You know, I was just there just hanging out, having a good time with my friends and running with them. Because we always ran with each other during recess, clan runs, and even our training.

Kyle Sumatzkuku: So when it came to races, I was so compassionate to my fellow teammates. Even when they have a side ache or they're about to puke or anything. And I would stay behind and check up on them. And then by the time when the race is just about over, we'll still be in the back of the pack. And we'll still be like lollygagging, having a chat or just talking to each other. And while we just see the other runners by us, just past us.

Kyle Sumatzkuku: And then once we cross the finish line, my parents, my mom and dad will ask me like, hey, how come you weren't in front of the other runners? I was like, oh, I was just waiting for my friend.

Meranden: We talked about the races that you did growing up, or just running in general and being careful with the teammates that you had. I know you also did other kind of running such as community stuff, maybe like Just Move It, your own kind of races. What was that experience like doing those kind of bigger races rather than running for school?

Kyle Sumatzkuku: It was definitely like another realm for me to step in. Just maturing from elementary to junior high to high school races, running against schools, but stepping into bigger races, going to Australia Down Under to race an international race when I was a junior in high school, which was quite an experience and I loved it. But after that, I kind of dug deep and thought about it more like, wow, I actually went to Down Under to Australia to race there.

Kyle Sumatzkuku: But then again, maybe I want to go to the West Coast or to the East Coast to race. And then after all, racing against reservations, to reservations, to going from city to another country, always wanted to come back and race in the United States. But furthermore, racing at Shiprock Marathon in New Mexico, that was definitely a really good opener for me. And it pretty much prolonged to going to the East Coast to run the Boston Marathon.

Meranden: Awesome. Now that you mentioned the Boston Marathon, you ran that in 2021, correct?

Kyle Sumatzkuku: Yes, correct.

Meranden: Cool. Yeah. And could you talk a little bit more about that? What was the experience running in Boston? Did you have to qualify or what was the process like getting ready for the Boston Marathon?

Kyle Sumatzkuku: So the Boston Marathon itself, I did not know. I was kind of like, it was quite a long shot for me because I didn't know you have to qualify in your age category to hit a qualifying time or a Boston time qualifier, BTQ, as they say. And honestly, you had to run a marathon just to qualify for Boston.

Kyle Sumatzkuku: So when I started doing my research, I was kind of like a little bit hesitant and a little bit scared and a little bit anxious because I didn't know what I was walking into. And it all started from the spring of 2019 and then carried on to summer. So I did sign up for the Shiprock Marathon that is held in Shiprock, New Mexico.

Kyle Sumatzkuku: And that marathon is pretty much a big gig, says so in the newspaper. And so I did train for that. And I was training in Lancaster, California. I spent a semester out there at Valley. And my coach, Coach Clay, he was there and he did mention that, hey, you can be a marathon runner and you do have the endurance and you have the aerobic capacity. I was like, oh, OK, let's do it. So qualifying for the race, did the Shiprock Marathon. And I was 25 years old then. And I did have a time standard in mind, just hitting six flat pace, hoping to beat three hours, particularly in my age category.

Kyle Sumatzkuku: I was supposed to hit three hours even just to qualify for the Boston Marathon. But I was a little bit, probably 20 to 30 minutes ahead of three hours. So it was quite a shocker. I didn't know that the Shiprock Marathon was going to be a Boston qualifying course to time. And yeah, so.

Meranden: So when you ran the Shiprock Marathon, what was your time?

Kyle Sumatzkuku: It was 2:38:08. Yeah.

Meranden: Two hours and 38 minutes. Oh, my God. And your pace was like six?

Kyle Sumatzkuku: It was between six flat to 5:55 pace.

Meranden: And that's 26 miles, right?

Kyle Sumatzkuku: 26.2 miles.

Meranden: Oh, my God. That's crazy. And then when you did the Boston Marathon, how did that turn out? What was it like going from? I know you mentioned you went to a lot of different places to run. And this is one of the biggest races, biggest marathons that is out there for runners. What was that experience like?

Kyle Sumatzkuku: The build up to it, the lead up to it was something very monumental. And, you know, once I hit the qualifying standard for Boston, it was my first Boston Marathon ever. And, you know, the build up to it was just absolutely just nerve wracking.

Kyle Sumatzkuku: It was very nervous. And, you know, I try to keep my composure having my loved ones, my family, my mom and dad, you know, the whole community, the whole village, just to keep my composure while doing the training, not only the training, having the strong encouragement and the high spirits to lead up to the race like that. And, you know, I was getting absolutely just mighty prayers, some good encouragement from not only from my village, but, you know, from all over from different tribes and surrounding reservations.

Kyle Sumatzkuku: And, you know, it was definitely something worth thinking about to this day, because it was quite an experience and it was so heavy. And I still reflect about it to this day. And, you know, it was like, how are we going to get there? Of course, we need the money. Yeah, there was a checklist where, yeah, I did one check, check the box off was qualifying for Boston. What's next?

Kyle Sumatzkuku: Yeah, doing like a fundraiser and then getting the word out. And honestly, the Boston Marathon is annually held on the month of April. But during that time frame, it was kind of uncertain times.

Kyle Sumatzkuku: And it was kind of, you know, unwary because the president of the United States of the year of 2022 to 2021, you know, the pandemic happened. COVID hit, you know, all races were canceled, all races were postponed. But for Boston, it was pretty much postponed. And then it was pretty much canceled. And then it led on to virtual race during that time. And annually, it was held in April.

Kyle Sumatzkuku: And it was always held on Monday, Patriots Day. But it was a blessing in disguise for me that Boston during that time, went through all that segment. And then it came back, made the announcement saying that, oh, Boston is going to be held in the month of October, which was kind of surprising.

Kyle Sumatzkuku: And, you know, it was going to be kept at that date and postponed to October 20, October 11, 2021. But during that time, during that day, it was held, the race was held on Indigenous Peoples Day. So whatever, whatever natural occurrence was that, you know, it was definitely a journey for me to take on.

Kyle Sumatzkuku: And, you know, it was something that out there naturally, out there was, you're going to run this race, no matter what the setbacks are from the previous races, from qualifying, going through the trials and tribulations leading up to Boston. So it took me just about almost two years just to, you know, get ready for the Boston Marathon and race on the month of October 11, 2021. And, you know, it was something powerful and mighty.

Kyle Sumatzkuku: And knowing that it was going to be on Indigenous Peoples Day, normally the race would be on Patriots Day in the month of April during springtime. So it was something that I still think about to this day. And, you know, just trying to wrap my mind around it and to share with you all, it's something very mighty.

Meranden: Yeah, that's awesome. Because, you know, during this time you talked about, it was time of uncertainty with, you know, COVID happening. And then, like you mentioned, that blessing of the sky is happening now on October of Indigenous Peoples Day.

Meranden: That's really cool that you got to, you know, think about running not just for yourself, but your whole community, your whole, like all the cultures, all the traditions, things like that. It's really cool that you had that special honor of doing that and having a race like that. And then I know over time, you mentioned that through all this running, you have achieved a lot of goals. You've been able to check the list off the bucket list of, you know, running this Boston Marathon.

Meranden: As you continue, you know, you mentioned you're 29, still very young. What are some goals that you created for yourself that, as a runner, that you hope to achieve in the future?

Kyle Sumatzkuku: I pretty much have long-term goals and I have short-term goals. But sometimes goals can just be elusive. Sometimes you can make them achieve and fulfill them and be successful with them.

Kyle Sumatzkuku: But sometimes you just have to check back and, you know, reach those goals. And, you know, just enduring the journey of those trials and tribulations and going through the process, you know, it takes a lot where you have to go back and think about to yourself and being like, hey, I got this. What if you have these nagging doubts?

Kyle Sumatzkuku: You have these insecurities and whatnot. What if I'm not going to make it? Or what if I'm not going to get the Boston Marathon qualifying time? And, you know, just sticking to that plan, you know, it takes time. It takes effort. It takes a lot of, you know, all these little things just to make it happen, not only the physicality, but the spiritual-wise, the mental-wise.

Kyle Sumatzkuku: And, you know, just enduring the journey of running Shiprock Marathon was my goal of qualifying for Boston. I ran a 2:38:08 at the Shiprock Marathon back in 2019. And then once I fulfilled the Boston Marathon back in October 11, 2021, I ran a 2:26:17 at my first Boston Marathon debut. So there was a huge gap there. And running Boston twice was something very fulfilling that I had to relive and come back because the first time was very successful. But the second time I went back, you know, it was held in the month of April where it was kind of hot.

Kyle Sumatzkuku: So, you know, just reflecting back on the first Boston Marathon debut, going back again in 2022, always wanted to make a bigger margin of from 2:26:00 to the second Boston Marathon debut. But times during that time, I didn't get to fulfill it, you know. So I did have to step back and just to reflect on what possibly will happen during that time of the second debut.

Kyle Sumatzkuku: But yeah, so goals can be elusive. Sometimes you can stick to them. Sometimes there's some mishaps, hiccups, you know, things like that can happen and occur in a marathon race just like that.

Kyle Sumatzkuku: But, you know, I did the second marathon debut. I did have my trials and tribulations where I had tears. I had breakdowns and my spirits was a bit cracked and more so broken.

Kyle Sumatzkuku: But definitely, I will honestly want to go back and make another debut sometime, hopefully next year or the following year. But, you know, the future is bright. So we can always carry on this prayer of sticking to the goal and making a big impact and trying to overcome those fears, those nagging doubts and those insecurities as a runner.

Kyle Sumatzkuku: And, you know, it can definitely be pretty much a mental battle with yourself. But then again, you surround yourself with good people, with good teammates who definitely encourage you, not only they admire your running, admire yourself and the way you carry yourself. But, you know, they always love seeing people, seeing yourself out there running and continue to try and continue to push the envelope in and just give it all you got. But, you know, just don't give up. Don't relent, you know, don't be so hard on yourself about it because I had my times there and, you know, I still think about that time. It was kind of scary.

Kyle Sumatzkuku: Yeah, it was kind of finding myself alone during that time frame. But days passed by and, you know, having my loved ones and my family saying, it's OK, it's OK, you didn't get to hit the goal that you had in mind. But then again, I kind of thought about it like, yeah, I didn't get to hit it.

Kyle Sumatzkuku: But then again, you know, I still have more years ahead of me just to fulfill them. And, you know, it can be fun sometimes and, you know, you just can't get enough of it. But then again, just thinking about it, having the character, having the strong spirit to carry on and to carry forth and let people know that don't give up, don't relent. And don't be hard about yourself, about not achieving your goals and continue forward and have that strong will in your heart.

Meranden: Yeah, awesome. I do want to mention, based on everything that you just now said, it is very important to have that kind of mindset, you know, taking a step back, understanding that I have these goals, they are there. And, you know, sometimes there are going to be those times where it is going to be hard. But then you also understand, like, this is just part of the journey. This is what makes me stronger. And having that mindset is really good.

Meranden: And it's really nice to see you overcome them, accomplish them, and then just continue to have more goals. So it's really cool to see how you've really transformed throughout the years, throughout the different races that you've done. And, you know, with this running experience you had just as a runner, you've also been able to expand your knowledge to other individuals, such as coaching. So over time, you've been able, actually last year, coach back home in your own local community. What has that experience been like for you?

Kyle Sumatzkuku: It's been unique, definitely. It was something new for me. But then again, I wanted to take time and donate my time to the youth. And, you know, just to share my experiences with them, even though when they're young. Because it's always good to start out young for running. And, you know, you can see them blossom and see them grow and see them mature as a runner.

Kyle Sumatzkuku: Not only a runner, but, you know, they can mature as a student, and then a runner, and then a good person last. And, you know, it's always good to see them pretty much blossom like that. And, you know, sometimes it's always good to have them endure the trials and tribulations.

Kyle Sumatzkuku: And, you know, there's times where seeing them race, seeing them, it's not only about the training, but then again, it goes further more than more than the training. You know, you have the mentality state and you got your spiritual. And then, you know, just to have those things aligned and, you know, having them blossom into a mature runner. And, you know, I did take the time to share my experiences at the Tuba City boarding school. I did promote from there and then went on to high school. I ran there my seventh and eighth grade year.

Kyle Sumatzkuku: And, you know, it was definitely a unique experience for me because definitely I was looking at those kids. I was like, man, I was a seventh and eighth grade running those high temperatures where it's just so hot. And, you know, and it's always good to stop by and just share miles with them.

Kyle Sumatzkuku: And, you know, sometimes it's not only the running part, but showing them discipline and enthusiasm and optimism and just sharing all those good components about sometimes, yeah, the training's there. But when you get into a race, like, you know, it's always good to be there right by their side and encourage them and, you know, tell them not to give up and not to relent or be so hard about themselves. Because I did experience over a dozen times with runners and, you know, they sometimes come up to me and be like, Kyle, I can't do this.

Kyle Sumatzkuku: Why, like, how come I'm not hitting this pace? How come I'm not hitting this time? Or by the time my competitor, my running next to me, he does this.

Kyle Sumatzkuku: I'll be like, you gotta sometimes just not so be hard on yourself about it, you know. And it takes time, it takes effort, and it takes the maturity. And, you know, not only being a coach at Tuba City Boarding School, but I did spend some time with Wings of America.

Kyle Sumatzkuku: Wings of America is based out of Albuquerque, New Mexico, and they're all around indigenous Native American youth running base. And they do have some summer running camps out all over the reservation of the Four Corners area. And I was very fortunate to be a facilitator slash coach to donate my time with them and meeting other runners from Pueblo, from Diné, from youth all over, just 11 tribes, as they say.

Kyle Sumatzkuku: And, you know, taking on from there, I was pretty much had an opportunity to even coach on the Hopi Reservation, where we have Hopi Wellness Center. And we did have our two second annual Hopi Running Camp at the Hopi Civic Center. And they were kind enough for allowing me to coach them and have a three-day running camp with the youth.

Kyle Sumatzkuku: And so from Tuba City Boarding School to Wings of America to donating my time to Hopi Wellness Center for a running camp all in all, it was just a unique experience. And sometimes, you know, I do see all these kids. You'll be like, hey, you're the Tuba City Boarding School runner or the coach.

Kyle Sumatzkuku: And I'll be like, yeah, hey, how's it going? And, you know, and be like, oh, hey, I seen you at the Wings of America Running Camp. Or I seen you at the Just Move It. And I seen you at the Hopi Wellness Running Camp, the Hopi Running Camp. And, you know, just so on and so forth. And, you know, so I do take the time and I do take, you know, the time to talk to them. And, you know, just pretty much sharing my knowledge of running. And not only like the running, but the cultural and aspirations for them. And it's always open. I'm always willing to share. And yeah, so.

Meranden: Awesome. Yeah. And I know you mentioned talking about sharing your knowledge and, you know, yourself using that donation of your time to the youth, to your community, things like that. And over time, you've been able to show that as a coach. Since we have this platform here, and I know you actually want to show something here. Would you like to talk a little bit of what that is?

Kyle Sumatzkuku: Yes. So these are pretty much photographs from one of the traditional races that we have on Hopi. And it's a basket dance race. And these are one of the ceremonial races that we have during the time of fall. And, you know, I had a special honor and privilege that one of my uncles does who got to photograph the run. And, you know, it's definitely something so monumental. And I love those photos. It's definitely, I love physical copies. And it's something that I reflect on.

Kyle Sumatzkuku: And, you know, it's a constant reminder that, you know, this is what we do. And this is what we have on Hopi. And I want to share that with you all. And I want to share it with the youth and the young ones out there that, yeah, you are always welcome to run these races, the flute dance, the snake dance, the basket dance, and even the clan runs. So, yeah, so.

Meranden: For our audience listening online, what are some of the pictures that are on there? What are some of them on there?

Kyle Sumatzkuku: Oh, yeah, so.

Meranden: Okay, like there's some with your family.

Kyle Sumatzkuku: Oh, yeah, so I do have some with my family. Yeah, so this was here with my family. So I do have my uncle. And then I have my mom and my other mom. And then I have one of my good buddies from the village. And this was all taken post-race.

Kyle Sumatzkuku: And along with my uncle here, who had taught me the Hopi art of running. And, you know, I can't thank him enough of how much he blossomed and matured me into a Hopi runner and taught me about these Hopi ceremonial races. And, you know, and so, yeah, so.

Meranden: Yeah, those are some nice photos. I like seeing those. They remind me of, like, even my own, like seeing the one. Like you mentioned, having physical photos, physical copies is really, really nice. So, yeah, like you mentioned, the whole thing of the importance of it, passing it on to the youth, for anyone. This is also for anyone in the audience or those online listening. What are some advice that you would give to upcoming runners of any age, even youth, that would like to be upcoming runners or athletes?

Kyle Sumatzkuku: Yeah, so, you know, it's always good to start out. You know, you can start out small. And, you know, you don't need any fancy machines or anything. You just need a pair of running shoes and some good running attire and just run those trails. And, you know, I did start out when I was young, just from recess to having time with my friends. And, you know, it's definitely a journey to take on. And it's always good to share. And, you know, so it's always good to start out small. I did start out as a late bloomer, as they say.

Kyle Sumatzkuku: I wasn't fast back at the Moenkopi Day School. And I was quite of a chubby kid. I do have a photo. When I first started out running at a Hopi running camp back in 2007, and I was a bit heavy set. But then again, I kind of didn't. I just ran for fun. But then again, from fun, it kind of matured myself into. So, you know, you can always start out small. And, you know, you don't need any fancy machines, just a pair of good running sneakers. And then just have yourself, have your own solitude, have your good efforts and have, you know, finding that happy place in your heart where just running, having a jog, having a walk, having a brisk walk. Or, you know, it's always fun to take on a journey like that. And, you know, sometimes you're hooked.

Kyle Sumatzkuku: Sometimes you get the running bug, as they say. And, you know, it's always good to start out young as I have and start out slow. So it's always good to start out where you started. And it always starts from home. And, you know, I always thought about starting out when I was young and, you know, just evolving, maturing, taking on this like a stepping stone. And, you know, it's quite an experience when you get older and you think about these things.

Kyle Sumatzkuku: And you'd be like, wow, I actually had a slow start. And, you know, it was quite of a time of my life and, you know, something to reflect on. So out there, people who want to get into the sport of running, you know, it's good for your wellness. It's good for your health. It's good for your spirit. It's good for your mind. And it's just good all around your well-being. And yeah, so.

Meranden: Yeah, that's good advice. I actually have a half marathon coming up in October. So I'm taking it slow, definitely. Running those lower mileages and then also learning how to get a pretty good pace. And also like back home, there's a lot of places you can run. All the hills, all the different places to run. So throughout this interview, we actually have a fun question for our guests. The fun question is, if you could have any indigenous food right now, what would it be?

Kyle Sumatzkuku: I was always spoiled back at home, especially on Hopi. You know, we're farmers and, you know, everything is based around corn, beans and watermelon, squash. And we have heirloom seeds that we plant every summer.

Kyle Sumatzkuku: And, you know, based off those foods, everything famous about our Hopi food is probably piki known as. It's a bread. It's blue. It's made out of juniper ashes. And it comes off and it's baked on a stone that it's black and has animal fat brains to sheep brains. And it's casted with watermelon seeds. That's how it gets that really good ashy texture. Kyle Sumatzkuku: But probably it will be piki. And nöqwivi, of course, that is made from white corn. And it's very filling. And it has can be whatever whatever kind of meat, rabbit meat or even sheep meat. Also, somiviki, it's pretty much blue corn. And it has a really good texture of the ashy from the juniper ash taste. And yeah, and it's very sweet. So I would say those are my top three. And watermelon, of course. And, you know, I can go on about these special foods. And they're definitely a delicacy that we have on Hopi land. And also frybread and the notorious Indian taco.

Meranden: Yeah, those are all really good ones. And usually we say, I kind of say the same thing because I like to say my kind of food. I would say nöqwivi, piki is a good one because everyone's like, what is that? But we try to say like, sometimes we explain as like a piece of paper. And if you were to like, literally, if I wrote this paper, it kind of looks like that. It's like that thin. And you just eat it with like you dip it in a lot. You can dip it in tea, you can dip in coffee, dip it in your soup, things like that. But those are some good answers.

Meranden: As we are beginning to wrap up this interview, I have one last question for you. And what would you like to leave this audience here? And then our audience online, what would you like to leave them with today?

Kyle Sumatzkuku: Yeah, so all in all, take care of yourselves. You know, live a happy life. You know, it's always good to take care of your well-being, your mental state, your spiritual, even your heart. And, you know, Ronnie just taught me a lot. And to connect with not only with people, not only with humans, but along with in depth of connecting with the land, connecting with our animals out there, and the vegetation, the birds, and even the bugs out there that just roam around this earth. And, you know, it's always good to connect with Mother Earth herself.

Kyle Sumatzkuku: And, you know, it's always good to just take time out of your day to go out there and just to run or take a good morning walk or a good morning jog out there and think about what we have in this life. And, you know, we only have one life here on this earth. And, you know, it's always good to live it every day like it's your last, you know, sharing good memories, sharing good cheers, birthdays, weddings, you know, all those good things in life.

Kyle Sumatzkuku: And it's always good to have good pals, good mates, good buddies next to you and whatever purpose, whatever life that you're trying to fulfill with your spouse, a best friend and with your loved ones and family. And, you know, keep them close. And we always think about our loved ones back at home and especially, you know, around this world. Because, you know, we only have one life. We only live on one earth. We only have one life to give.

Kyle Sumatzkuku: And, you know, so just take care of yourselves out there wherever you go, whatever you're doing, whatever morning ritual you have, you know, the simple rituals, having a morning coffee, having morning tea with your family. And, you know, so take care of your well-being because you have a purpose here on this earth. And it's always good to check on one another even though you haven't seen them for a while, you haven't seen them for, you know, how many days out.

Kyle Sumatzkuku: So, yeah, and just be good to yourself. And, you know, there's some hard, rough patches, muddy patches out there that we endure, that we have not only, you know, at our home base or, you know, it could be at work or the daily life, the daily routines that you have, you know, just take time and take time for yourself to reflect and, you know, just to show yourself the loving, having that spoiled moment with yourself, you know, go out there and spoil yourself. It doesn't hurt to spoil yourself, to hang out with friends and, or even by your lonesome, to visit a canyon like this or to visit your favorite place that makes you happy. Not only by yourself, but with others that you want to spend time with.

Kyle Sumatzkuku: So life is good. Life can be breathtaking. Life can be heavy at times. Life can be all these sorts of emotions that can deliver to us, but we're only human. You know, we had these five senses of us and, you know, I never, we never take life for granted because, you know, we have our grandparents, we have my parents, we have our parents and, you know, we have our little ones to think about. So visitors who visit this special place, you know, it's always going to be here, whatever place that you have on your trip or wherever you want to go that you call your special place, you know, take care of it.

Kyle Sumatzkuku: Just give it back the blessings that you endured just to give it back to the place because it made you so happy and it made you feel composed and during those highs and lows, it made you so better. So all in all, look out for one another, love each other. You know, it doesn't matter where, who we are, where we come from, you know, we treat each other with respect and with the love that we want, the love and respect that we want to treat them and how they want to treat us.

Kyle Sumatzkuku: And in Hopi, we have these five principles and it's these principles that are endured for Hopi, but out there, not only for Hopi, but out there with the 11 tribes, they have their own principles. But in Hopi, we have [speaks Hopi] and I'm forgetting another one. Pretty sure my dad will let me know. But those five principles, those pretty much live around us Hopis. And, you know, if we fulfill those five principles, yeah, we are Hopi. But, you know, treating land, treating every little living being out there with respect, with harmony, with good intentions, with, you know, with what we have on this earth.

Kyle Sumatzkuku: And it follows back with walking this earth, running this earth, you know, having to see a good, a new day, a new sunrise, a new sunset. And, you know, so it's always good to give back to those elements out there and the bugs and the birds and all the living things out there that surround us, that we hear from the morning of the a.m. and even at the dusk until evening. So in Hopi, we say, [speaks Hopi] you know, just take care of yourself, live a strong, happy, loving, and a good-hearted life out there and remain strong out there, take care of your loved ones and, you know, take, be careful and look out for one another, especially wherever you go and wherever your destination will be.

Kyle Sumatzkuku: So thank you and yeah, take care.

Meranden: Owi, askwali for being here. Thank you so much for sharing your knowledge and we look forward to seeing you here again. So thank you.

Kyle Sumatzkuku: Owi, kwa’kwa. Thank you for having me.

Ranger Jonah: Grand Canyon Speaks is a program hosted by Grand Canyon National Park and the Grand Canyon Conservancy. A special thanks to Aaron White for the theme music. This recording reflects the personal lived experiences of tribal members and do not encompass the views of their tribal nation or that of the national park.

Ranger Jonah: To learn more about Grand Canyon First Voices, visit www.nps.gov/grca. Here at Grand Canyon National Park, we are on the ancestral homelands of the 11 associated tribes of the Grand Canyon. These being the Havasupai Tribe, the Hualapai Tribe, the Navajo Nation, the Hopi Tribe, the Pueblo of Zuni, the Yavapai Apache Nation, the Kaibab Band of Paiute Indians, the Las Vegas Paiute Tribe, the Moapa Band of Paiutes, the Paiute Indian Tribe of Utah, and the San Juan Southern Paiute Tribe.

We’re back! Welcome to Grand Canyon Speaks with Season 3, a season dedicated to indigenous athletes of the 11 associated tribes of Grand Canyon National Park. This series dives into their athletic journeys and how much of an impact sports have on their tribal communities.

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TRANSCRIPT:

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[Kyle Sumatzkuku]

It took me just about almost two years just to get ready for the Boston Marathon.

[Audre Etsitty]

Our elders do say horses are sacred (speaks Navajo), the horses are medicine.

[Kelkiyana Yazzie]

And having someone who looks like you and has your same, similar lived experiences in this field of work is really important to just go to and lean on.

[Kyle Awelagte]

I feel it's more than running, like just, you know, getting hyped for a race in that competitive area. But I see it more as like a way of healing.

Hello.

Hello.

Hello.

And welcome to Grand Canyon Speaks, an online podcast that highlights the voices of tribal members who call the Grand Canyon home.

Welcome to season three, a season dedicated to highlighting indigenous athletes and learning about the impact that sports have on their tribal communities.

Tune in January 2026 to hear their stories.

[Kelli Jones]

And I think that's something that I love, you know, when I'm an interpreter here to kind of talk about this history. It might be hard history, but it's also showing the resiliency of what our people have gone through.

[Lynette Lewis]

We don't have scouts, college scouts coming out to the reservations to watch our kids play. So that's why, you know, tournaments like NABI were created. This was for the exposure.

[Ali Upshaw]

You know, names like Alvina Begay, Billy Mills, all native runners that have run at such a high level. And they've always, I guess, shown me that, like, if they can do it, I can do it too.

[Wendi Lewis]

Then you ever run on Hopi, they'll thank you in our language because we recognize that as prayer.

[Jason Amador]

So I would always say to never give up, keep going, and chase your dreams. Because for me, I was a kid in the stand from a small reservation. Now I'm a six-foot guard playing at Grand Canyon.

So for me, like, you can achieve anything you want.

In this episode, Ranger Annie sat down with Zuni jeweler, April Unkestine. Her work has been made popular by collectors and celebrities such as Brian May. Like many Zuni jewelers, April incorporates the Zuni sun face design into her channel inlay work but with her own twist. She also shares the cultural significance of the Grand Canyon in relation to Zuni and its history. Take a listen to this episode and enjoy!

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TRANSCRIPT:

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April Unkestine: Whenever you see an artist, remember that, you know, it wasn't machine-made. It was something that they made from their heart, something that, you know, they put a lot of effort in working on and be appreciative.

Ranger Annie: Yeah, appreciative.

Lakin: Hello and welcome back to Grand Canyon Speaks. This is Lakin. Meranden: And this is Meranden. Lakin: In this episode, Ranger Annie interviewed a multi-talented artist from the Zuni Pueblo.

Meranden: April Unkestine is best known for her inlay jewelry and traditional designs such as the sun face.

Lakin: She shares her experience as a demonstrator and the symbolism behind her work.

Meranden: Take a listen to April's story and we hope you enjoy.

April Unkestine: My name is April Unkestine. I am from the Pueblo of Zuni, New Mexico. They asked me to talk with you guys about my jewelry and our connection with the Grand Canyon.

Ranger Annie: Yeah. And so, when did you start making jewelry?

April Ukestine: I started making jewelry when I was 15 years old. I grew up with my grandma. My grandma was diabetic and, you know, couldn't really support me. So, I ended up, you know, working on jewelry. And my aunt was the one who taught me how to make jewelry.

Ranger Annie: Nice. And so, who were kind of your biggest inspirations? Your aunt and...

April Unkestine: Well, most of my family were silversmiths. My grandma and my grandpa did silversmithing, just like my husband and I. He does his own thing and I do my own thing. My grandma and grandpa did their own things. My grandma did a lot of, like, inlay, similar to the famous Dishta work.

April Unkestine: And then my grandpa did his own petite point work. So, I used to watch them and sometimes I would help my grandma, but I never got to help my grandpa because even when he tried to teach me, I couldn't pick up that. I couldn't do his work. It seems simple, but I can't do his work.

Ranger Annie: So, can you kind of describe the process of, like, inlay and stuff like that?

April Unkestine: Actually, the inlay is, like, stone to stone. You make the bezel and then you do stone to stone, depending on what stones you use. Like, for me, I use a lot of mother-of-pearl, pin shell. I use turquoise, coral, you know, whatever's available to me. Sometimes I like to go and use a lot of different other materials, like I use gabasite. Gabasite is a stone with black lines and white spots on it.

April Unkestine: And it comes out pretty nice. It looks like it's cracked when you polish it, but it's pretty nice. I've also used what they call Newland. There is, like, a new turquoise, which is from Nevada. It's almost like the gabasite, but it's pretty neat, too. So, I use a lot of different variations in my stones and channel inlays, like, just stone to stone.

Ranger Annie: Yeah, and has your process kind of changed over time or...?

April Ukestine: No, not that much.

Ranger Annie: What are some of the...I was looking at a lot of your work earlier, and there were a lot of really intricate, cool symbols. Can you kind of tell us a bit about, like, the symbols in your artwork?

April Unkestine: The symbols in my artwork are symbols of the sun face. So, in our culture, we pray to the sun, which is our father sun. We ask for blessings, you know, and also the sun gives life, so we ask for a longevity of life. So, it's basically, you know, something that I picked up from my aunt, and that's how she explained it to me, so.

Ranger Annie: Nice. Yeah. So, and you had said, when we talked earlier, you had mentioned or you were describing the style that you had, and you said that it's not your style. But that it's more of, like, a shared style. Did you want to talk more about that?

April Unkestine: Yeah. The sun face is widely used in my village. Like, there's a lot of people that make sun face jewelry similar to mine, but theirs' are a lot different. A lot of this jewelry that all of us make in the Pueblo was, like, it's almost, like, shared. Like, so, my uncle, I mean, my grandmother's brother married into this family who made the sun faces, and then that lady used to be married to somebody else that made sun faces. So, it just, you know, carries on, like, I don't say this piece, this sun face is mine.

April Unkestine: Like, it's not my design. You know, I attribute a lot of my work to people that passed on that have made the sun face. They're not like mine, but they're similar to mine. So, it's a lot of the jewelry in Zuni are, like, shared. Like, a certain family member made this, but married into another family, and that family makes the jewelry now. And so, when a lot of people say, you know, that was my work, you know, it's been shared.

April Unkestine: People pick it up, you know, they share it with this person, that person. So, a lot of the jewelry making is, like, shared.

Ranger Annie: Yeah. And in the context of sharing, too, when did you kind of get started with the cultural demonstration program?

April Unkestine: The cultural demonstration, I started about three years ago. I've been wanting to, like, do shows and art shows and stuff like that. And one of my artist friends, we were working together. Well, I work with a group of artists in Zuni where we were helping build a park for our youth. And so, I got to working with these artists who go out and do shows. Like, they do big shows in bigger cities and stuff like that. So, you know, I told them, I've never done shows. And they're like, well, you need to try it.

April Unkestine: So, they mentioned this program to me about the Grand Canyon [cultural] Demonstration program. So, I was like, so how do I get started? So, it goes, oh, contact this person and this person. And so, that's what I did. And then when they called me, when the first time we came, me and my husband, we were like, what do we do? You know, how are we going to do this?

April Unkestine: But, you know, it kind of got a lot easier later on, you know, just, you know, calm down. Yeah. So, that's how we started doing demonstration. And we do do little shows. We haven't gotten into the big shows, which I'm trying to do. But, you know, there's a lot of process in it. You do applications and also you need to do, like, professional photographs of your work. And sometimes when I have jewelry, it goes out the door and I can't take pictures of it. The only pictures I have are on my phone.

Ranger Annie: But I know that your work got a lot of notability somewhat recently with the band Queen. Yeah. Do you want to talk about that?

April Unkestine: Well, I usually sell my jewelry to a store in Santa Fe. That store is called Keshi, called the Keshi Connection. It's run by, it was put up by a teacher that used to work in Zuni that bought fetishes from Zuni people. When she retired, she went to Santa Fe and opened this store. So she started buying jewelry and stuff. Anyways, going forward, she buys a lot of my jewelry. So she bought my bolos, my sun-faced bolos. \

April Unkestine: And one day she said, this guy came in. “I didn't know who he was. He was laid back. You know, he walked in and was walking around.” And he said, he got to your bolo. And he says, "I want that." So she sold the bolo, not knowing who he was. And then about two weeks later, a week or two later, it showed up on the red carpet.

April Unkestine: And it was Brian May that had gone into the store, bought the bolo. This was the time when they made the movie Bohemian Rhapsody. So he bought the bolo. And so that's how my fame started. And I don't like, you know, a lot of attention. It was so stressful for me because I would go to, even in my own town, I would go to a store. People would come up to me and say, hey, you're so-and-so. I saw you on the news. I heard you on the radio. Now you're on the magazine and all this other stuff. And it was just crazy. And I was like, no, I can't do that.

Ranger Annie: Did that, how did that kind of affect your work and life after that?

April Unkestine: I actually had a career working as a nurse assistant. I was working with disabled individuals at the time that that happened. So with a lot of demand in my work and my jewelry, I was like, I can't, you know, juggle my work and then, you know, do jewelry. So I had to quit working on, you know, working with disabled individuals, and I ended up working just on my jewelry.

Ranger Annie: That's incredible. So to bring it back to the canyon, I know you had mentioned that this was like your first time coming to Grand Canyon, for the first time you did the cultural demonstration program. But you have a larger like cultural connection to the canyon. Would you like to talk about that?

April Unkestine: Yes. It is said that our, when we came into the world, we came in from the Ribbon Falls. We came out from the Ribbon Falls, and then we made our journey through Zuni Pueblo, where we're currently at. And I had also explained to you about, you know, how we're told that certain times of the year, we're not supposed to talk about our migration story. And this is the time of the year, we don't talk about our migration story. So we talk about it in the wintertime.

April Unkestine: So in wintertime, we will sit around and our ancestors would, you know, our elders would tell us the story about, you know, how we migrated from the Grand Canyon. And then we went to Zuni Pueblo.

Ranger Annie: Yeah. How does it feel to return here to the canyon? Like, you know, for the demonstration program?

April Unkestine: It's really nice. I like that, you know, we have this program, where we're able to show our work and, you know, let people know what process it takes to make a lot of the jewelry that we make, or a lot of the carvings and the pottery, the paintings. There's a lot of artistic talent in our Pueblos, with the Native Americans, they have weaving baskets, whatever. And it's good to show, you know, the people, you know, like, the process of from starting to end, where, you know, you go into a shop, and there's no demonstrator there, you look at the piece, and you're like, Oh, I'll take this.

April Unkestine: But a lot of people don't know what the process is in making the jewelry or the whatever the art that they have. Or how, like, like you asked me, what the significance is in the piece, you know, so they don't know a lot of that, a lot of that stuff. So it's good to have demonstration where people actually see how it's done and how it's made.

Ranger Annie: Have you ever done any art like outside of jewelry?

April Unkestine: Yeah, I actually did a little bit of carving. I did a little bit of carving. I did other types of work. Oh, and I did a little bit of pottery. Sometimes I like to sew. I know they say that sewing isn't art, but it is. Anything is art, even music, dance, anything is art. So I did a lot of that. So I did a variety of stuff.

Ranger Annie: So how did you kind of settle on like jewelry is what you were wanting to do?

April Unkestine: I think jewelry is like my strength. Like when I'm so stressed out, like, everything's falling. And I feel like everything's falling. You know, I sit down and I start working. And it releases a lot of that stress. Like, I'm just sitting there doing my own thing. It keeps me calm. I'm working with my hands. I like working with my hands mostly.You know, I, you know, there's other things I did. But you know, I think jewelry is my strength.

Ranger Annie: Yeah. So you had said that your granddaughter actually said that you should be called an inspirational teacher. How do you see yourself filling that role with your jewelry and your art?

April Unkestine: I, you know, I try to teach younger kids like my granddaughter, other people, I try to teach them, you know, like, do something that makes you happy. You know, like, we have jobs like we have professional jobs, you could be most miserable there. But when we find something, you know, we're more at ease like my jewelry, you know, I'm more at ease doing a lot of that. And whereas when I was working as a nurse assistant, it was like chaos to me.

April Unkestine: I was like, some mornings I didn't want to go. I don't want to go there. So I tell people, you know, do what you like, you know, it's not, it's not the money that counts. It's how you feel, you know, how it makes you feel, you know, how good it makes you feel to do the things you want to do. You know, you know, that's that's how I, you And I've been doing programs in school where I talked to kids about, you know, how doing jewelry, but also remember that, you know, stay in school, have a professional career. Because sometimes in in professional careers, you know, there's setbacks where you're let go or something happens and you don't have a job and you can have like jewelry or some kind of art to fall back on just like in college where you have a major, have a minor.

April Unkestine: So, you know, have art as a minor or, you know, whatever makes you happy, you know, that's what I tell them. Yeah, I love that. Yeah.

Ranger Annie: So when you were growing up, how did you kind of think of the Grand Canyon?

And has that changed since you've been doing this program?

April Unkestine: I've just heard a lot of stories about the Grand Canyon, how we were connected, you know, a lot of stories about, you know, the migration, but I've never really been here before the demonstration. And when I came here, it was like, it's just a certain type of feeling that I felt when I got here. I'm just like an emotional person. So when I came here, I was so emotional. I was like, oh, so this is where it all started, you know, to be here and to actually see a lot of things around here. It was pretty nice.

Ranger Annie: Yeah. And you brought your granddaughter. Not to shout you out.

Ranger Annie: Yeah. So and how many times have you been here with the demonstration?

April Unkestine: I think about three times. Three times. Yeah.

Ranger Annie: How do you feel that, like, this style, how is it kind of different from like what your mentors and influencers sort of design?

April Unkestine: They had their own kind of style when they started working, like a lot of their work was similar, but you had to see the pieces to compare different styles to what mine are. I think theirs were like older style. And then mine was like the newer, like the now style.

April Unkestine: So and they had like more different, I guess, different stones, different, you know, supplies that they use. Like they, a lot of people use turtle shell back then. And now it's outlawed that you can't use turtle shell in jewelry. A lot of different stones that they use we don't use them anymore. So the basic stones that I use are a lot different from what they use back then. And plus, like, it's not really available anymore.

April Unkestine: Like when I started working and when I was 15 years old, we could buy turquoise like just anywhere. Now you have to go and search for turquoise. And like I was explaining to some of the people that came to my stand is that they're starting to make stabilized turquoise, which is not really, you know, like the natural turquoise.

April Unkestine: It's made with a lot of chemicals to keep them together because they're so brittle. But now they smell like plastic. They've made it to where before you can't tell the difference with a hot pin.

Now you can't tell any difference with it because they made it to where it's almost like the natural turquoise. So a lot of our supplies have gone down and I've noticed that a lot of coral is getting, like, hard to find too because we used to find, like, bright red, maroon color coral. Now we're finding, like, orange, some stuff that we really can't use and we'll have to pick through.

And it's a lot of things that have changed over the years. So many changes. Ranger Annie: Yeah, and I know COVID had a large impact too.

April Unkestine: Yeah, during COVID it was like we couldn't go get our supplies. We had to, like, if we went to a trading post, we had to wait in line. Like, they'll send, like, one person in or, like, they'll just bring it to you or whatever.

And we didn't have much people to sell to or we couldn't go out in public and sell like this. And it had a huge impact on our economy and our work. So we had to find ways to, you know, work with getting that money and selling our products.

So we would go online or, like, Facebook was great because people would look you up on Facebook and they say, hey, I see you make this. So we started selling to public. But that's also what I try to help a lot of people in my community.

It's like, you know, you'll be the first person to sell because when we sell to stores, I tell them we're the third person because, you know, a lot of the stores, they'll sell retail and we're, like, the way down there. So I try to tell them, you know, go out and sell, you know, be the first person, you know, do it yourself.

Ranger Annie: Yeah. Having more, like, kind of control over the process.

April Unkestine: Yeah.

Ranger Annie: And so you sell to stores and then I know you're talking about, like, shows and stuff. And what are some of the differences between, like, doing the shows versus the cultural demonstration program?

April Unkestine: During the shows, you don't really have to show them, you your product. You just, you know, put them up there. They come by and they buy, especially if they know you, like, you know, from the stores, they'll come by and they'll buy. And then also doing the shows is a lot more challenging because some shows are juried, meaning that you have to send a professional photo in and people look at it, the jurors look at it and they say, oh, we can bring her in or bring him in. And then then if you're accepted, you get in. But then you also pay a fee, a booth fee.

April Unkestine: And you and the shows, you have to pay your own way to get there. You have to get a motel or wherever you're going to stay. But with the demonstration, I'm glad that, you know, you have, you know, have a place to stay so we don't have to go find a place to stay. Or, you know, a lot of other things are so different from the show to demonstrating.

Ranger Annie: Do you have, like, maybe a favorite memory from demonstrating here?

April Unkestine: That's a tough question.

Ranger Annie: Maybe a good memory.

April Unkestine: Just the first time we came, we didn't know what we were doing. But the second day, it was pretty easy. First day we came, it was chaos. We didn't know what we were doing. We didn't know how we were going to sell or, you know, how we were going to price things or we didn't have that little square where people can swipe their cards to pay us. So it was all cash. And then we started learning all these different ways that they can pay. So we finally got up.

Ranger Annie: Now you're pros.

April Unkestine: Not really.

Ranger Annie: I don't know. Everyone should definitely stop by. Y'all will be here until Thursday.

Ranger Annie: Yeah. So, yeah. And I just kind of want to ask you, like, what would you like for the audience to sort of take away from this discussion and kind of, like, experience here?

April Unkestine: Just like, you know, whenever you see an artist, remember that, you know, it wasn't machine made. It was something that they made from their heart. Something that, you know, they put a lot of effort in working on and, you know, be appreciative.

Ranger Annie: Yeah. Appreciative. Great. And on that note of being appreciative and stuff, I do want to open the floor up to any questions if anybody has any questions for April.

Ranger Annie: So, yeah, the question is, we had a previous demonstrator who encouraged, like, going to reservations to buy directly there. Would that be appropriate, too, for you?

April Unkestine: Yeah, we actually have a little store down there that's owned by artists that they opened up not too long ago. I think it was before, right before the pandemic, they opened up the store for artists to bring their artwork in and for people to come in and buy directly from the artists.

April Unkestine: So we actually have that store. And then we also have one that recently came in Gallup. It's called the ZART. It's Z-Art. But they call it ZART. So there's another store in Gallup and then one in Zuni that, you know, they buy directly from the artists.

April Unkestine: And sometimes in our community, we have that art walk where they open their houses and people come in and they welcome them into their houses and they watch them work and buy their art there, too. I'm not a part of that, but there are a lot of artists that do that in Zuni. But even though I'm not a part of that art walk, you know, when people come in and they ask for me, they tell me and I say, oh, well, send them up.

April Unkestine: So they'll come to our house and, you know, they'll buy directly from us, which is a lot better than buying from the store because then that helps them, that helps the artists.

Ranger Annie: When is the art walk?

April Unkestine: It's just any, you can go down there any day and say, you know, go to the art center and they'll let you know who's all on the art walk.

Ranger Annie: Oh, cool.

April Unkestine: And you'll know who's on the art walk. They have like colorful rocks piled up on their driveway. So that's how they tell them that, you know, this is the art walk.

Ranger Annie: Oh, cool. Yeah, Zuni Pueblo.

April Unkestine: Yeah, you can come down there. Yeah, just any time of the year. But oh, we have certain time of the year where all the stores are closed is when we're fasting. Usually it's one time in the wintertime, usually December, like maybe the second or the third week of December, and then the summertime. Well, the summertime isn't closed, huh? No, summertime isn't closed, just the wintertime.

April Unkestine: But some of us do have fasting where we can't sell, buy, you know, spend money, so.

Audience Member: And then you said your jewelry was in the movie, Bohemian Rhapsody? It was in the movie?

April Unkestine: No, it was on the red carpet on Brian May when he went to go receive the award for it.

Audience Member: Oh, he wore it?

April Unkestine: Yeah, he wore it on the red carpet, yeah.

April Unkestine: There was one other time on Dumb and Dumber, the first movie, Dumb and Dumber. The pretty part where he's on the toilet. Oh, man.

Ranger Annie: Yeah, so you said Brian May is also a royal astronomer for UK. Incredible.

April Unkestine: Yeah, I tried getting a hold of him, he won't respond back to me. He's laid back, friendly, and whatever, and so I emailed him and nothing.

Ranger Annie: There's still time.

Audience Member: Your name again is?

April Unkestine: Aprilene Unkestine is my full name, I just go by April.

Audience Member: And the last name was?

April Unkestine: Unkestine.

Audience Member: Okay, I remember seeing it, yeah.

April Unkestine: Everybody asks me if I'm from Europe because it sounds European.

Ranger Annie: Yeah, so she was saying that a lot of the jewelry, you have the four colors for Zuni jewelry. Do you use any colors outside of those?

April Unkestine: I use a lot of different colors. I know that a lot of our colors represent different directions, so I use a lot of colors and also outside of the colors that we use. So I just use a variety of colors, like I had showed the pink mussel, what are the others? Abalone. So it's just a variety of colors that I use.

April Unkestine: There's still traders that sell abalone shells, just like the turtle shell, it's been outlawed. You can't use the turtle shells, but it was used a long time ago. I still see some of the jewelry in museums that have the turtle shells, but we can't use those anymore.

April Unkestine: My older son is making fetishes. My younger daughter is starting to make jewelry. My older daughter, she makes jewelry, but not like mine. Hers are, she makes little turtle earrings. And my granddaughter, she does butterfly earrings, yeah. So she's starting to make jewelry, too. But all in all, my family, my kids, they have their own careers, but they still work on jewelry. My older son is basically just working on fetishes. His name should also be in one of the fetish books, too.

April Unkestine: Oh, and I have an 11-year-old grandson who started working on fetishes, too. So he's done some, so his grandpa's, you know, I guess their inspiration.

Ranger Annie: Cool. Nice.

April Unkestine: Any other questions?

Ranger Annie: Well, thank you so much, April, for coming out and doing this program, and thank you all for staying.

Ranger Jonah: Grand Canyon Speaks is a program hosted by Grand Canyon National Park and the Grand Canyon Conservancy. A special thanks to Aaron White for the theme music. This recording reflects the personal lived experiences of tribal members and do not encompass the views of their tribal nation or that of the National Park.

To learn more about Grand Canyon First Voices, visit www.nps.gov/GRCA. Here at Grand Canyon National Park, we are on the ancestral homelands of the 11 associated tribes of the Grand Canyon, these being the Havasupai Tribe, the Hualapai Tribe, the Navajo Nation, the Hopi Tribe, the Pueblo of Zuni, the Yavapai Apache Nation, the Kaibab Band of Paiute Indians, the Las Vegas Paiute Tribe, the Moapa Band of Paiutes, the Paiute Indian Tribe of Utah, and the San Juan Southern Paiute Tribe.

In this episode, listen to Rosabelle Shepherd speak with Ranger Dan about her experience as a Diné silversmith. She shares stories from her childhood, the inspiration for her work, and how she hopes the younger members of her family will give silversmithing a try.

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TRANSCRIPT:

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Rosabelle Teesyatoh Shepherd Speaks

Rosabelle Teesyatoh Shepherd: We are probably, probably like the very least important thing in this life. The very, and, and we think that we humans, we think that we're important.

Ranger Dan: Yeah.

Rosabelle Teesyatoh Shepherd: We think that we're above the four-legged and the winged ones and the plant life and all that. We're not. We're not.

Ranger Mark: Hello and welcome back to Grand Canyon Speaks. This is Ranger Mark.

Ranger Grace: And I'm Ranger Grace.

Ranger Mark: This episode is with Rosabelle Shepard. She is a fifth generation Diné silversmith and in this episode, she talks to Ranger Dan about her relationship to her craft.

Ranger Grace: They had to record this episode inside the Desert View Watchtower because several thunderstorms were rolling through the area. Rosabelle shares how her silversmithing work pulls from important elements like clouds, rain, thunder, and lightning.

Ranger Mark: She also talks about her family. She grew up watching her father silversmith, and now her grandson is learning the practice. So, enjoy listening to Rosabelle in this episode and thanks for tuning in.

[Music]

Rosabelle Teesyatoh Shepherd: (Speaks Diné). Normally, that's how Navajo people introduce themselves. We would say, we would give our greeting of yá'at'ééh. And some people say that means hello. I guess it could, but in our language, yá' is the universe, e'éh is ourself, and t'ééh is Mother Earth.

So when we use that greeting, we are acknowledging the universe, our father, ourselves, and Mother Earth. So it's kind of like, maybe like a blessing. So that's what yá'at'ééh means.

And then we say our name and always we introduce our clan. We introduce our mother's clan first, our father's clan, our maternal grandparents, and then paternal. So those four, we actually recite.

And then that's really our way of like building kinship among, you know, other Diné people. And then I just said that I'm originally from a place called (speaks Diné). And really, that's my middle name.

And (speaks Diné) is really from my grandfather, a place that he brought the family to during the summer for their livestock. It's actually a canyon, the Blue Canyon. And he brought the family there. And in the canyon, there were cottonwood trees. And they're still there. And he knew that there was water there.

And so he started digging around underneath the cottonwood, and he actually came upon a spring. And so when he found that spring, later on, the government came in and they built a well, a pump well. So we would go down there in the summer, and we would, you know, pump water for our sheep and our horses and our cattle.

And it had, like, a cement trough. And so, when he did that, and they named that place (speaks Diné) is actually cottonwood trees, and (speaks Diné) means underneath, and then tó is water.

And so they named my grandfather Isi'at'óni. So from that name is how, you know, when the census people came in, and they would ask the Navajo people, you know, what is your name? What is your last name? And we don't have any of that. And so they went and gave my mother's last name is (speaks Diné).

And so that's where that name comes from, (speaks Diné). And I use it in my signature. So my signature will be Teesyatoh Shepherd.

And then my silversmithing actually came from my father. So I always, you know, honor him by using my last name Shepherd. But that's, that's where I come from and that's who I am.

Ranger Dan: Thank you. Thank you very much.

Rosabell Teesyatoh Shepherd: Lengthy, huh?

Ranger Dan: It's good. It's a good intro. I wish I had kind of like a, an intro like that. I'm Dan from Minnesota. The land of many lakes. Like, that's about it kind of right there. We really like ranch dressing and casseroles and hot dish. But you already touched upon a little bit of like what your father used to do for silversmithing.

And as a cultural demonstrator for eight years here, you have been demonstrating your skill as a silversmith and you told me today that you kind of picked it up a little bit later in life, right?

Rosabelle Teesyatoh Shepherd: I did. I waited till I was 40. Being stubborn.

Ranger Dan: Yeah. Yeah. But it doesn't show that like, it shows that you have been doing this longer than since you've been 40. Like, it's very polished. It's very clean. And it holds true. It really does as an art form.

Rosabelle Teesyatoh Shepherd: Yeah. I, I had been around silversmithing really all my life. I remember about four years old, I would sit and watch my father silversmith. And I would watch my father, I would be playing outside and I would watch my father going back and forth to the Hogan.

And I would look up every now and then, and I'd see him, you know, come out, take something in. And then about 30 minutes later, he'd come over to where I was playing and he would say, ‘come and watch me silversmith’. And so I would go into the Hogan with him and he had an open fire going.

And he had a little blanket over here on the side and that was for me to sit. So I was like four years old and I would sit there and I don't, I don't remember like being bored or wanting to, you know, leave. And he would explain his process of what he was doing. And in that time, you know, our men were really silversmithing the old way where they would actually melt silver coins.

They would actually melt it and then they would pour it. And then they would take that and they would be hammering on it. And my father had a railroad tie and it was probably about that long because it's nice and polished.

And then the open fire was used for that melted silver strip that he, you know, melted. And he would take prongs and he would stick it in the open fire to reheat it up. And then I remember that metal being like pinkish and he'd bring it out and he'd pound, pound, pound, turn it around, pound, stick it back in, in the open flame.

So he was explaining to me what he was doing. So I actually watched him, you know, work like that.

I'm like right in the middle of five brothers, two older brothers and three younger brothers. And I was the only girl in the middle. So my brothers were actually silversmithing when they were teenagers. My older brothers were silversmithing by the time they were like 13 and 14.

And then my younger brothers, they were, I remember my youngest brother being like nine years old and he was like using a buffer. I mean, that thing is like, that thing's like dangerous!

Ranger Dan: You're talking the buffing wheel? On a motor?

Rosabelle Teesyatoh Shepherd: Yeah, that, you know, spinning, yeah.

And the last, and he was -- the last two were buffers and I remember watching them work like that. So I was, you know, around silversmithing throughout my life. And I didn't, I didn't even touch it till I was like 40.

My brothers were the ones that, you know, kept, you know, telling me, you know, ‘you need to do what we're doing’. You know, I was working, you know, a regular job and, and they would always, you know, comment to me, you know, ‘why are you like running your life down for the government? You know, you need to do what we're doing’. I got so tired of hearing that because I'd be like so tired from work and, and then they would start, you know, and so one day I just like stood up and I just said, you know, I can't do that.

And my older brother, you know, grabbed me by my shoulder and he kind of like shook me. And he said, ‘what do you mean you don't know how to do this? You grew up with it!’ And that's what made me start thinking.

I started thinking about it. And within like six months, I actually, like, made, you know, made a decision that I was going to do it. And I like actually changed my life around and I actually left the public health and, and I started, I started.

And when I started, it was, it was just like so easy. I knew what to do. I knew what process to do.

And I didn't even have to like go to them and say, you know, well, what do I do now? You know. I knew the process. I seen the process. My thinking, my, you know, like the designs that I wanted to do, you know, were like constantly in my head. And even now after, after 20, I, I'm going to be starting my 26th year in silversmithing.

And even now my mind is still like that. I still want to create. I still, you know, can see, can look at something and, and I have another idea that I could like add on to it. I'm still good.

Ranger Dan: Yeah! Excellent! Yeah!

Rosabelle Teesyatoh Shepherd: At Jewelry making.

Do you, do you fall asleep silversmithing? Do you just like hear the pounding of the hammer on the stump and like shaping the silver, creating rounds?

Rosabelle Teesyatoh Shepherd: I know Ariel sometimes will say, ‘I just love that sound of when you're cutting’, you know, and most people, when you're cutting, it makes that like screeching noise and it can make you like kind of shiver.

Ranger Dan: Yeah.

Rosabelle Teesyatoh Shepherd: And she always says, ‘I love that cutting noise that goes on, you know, all day long’.

Ranger Dan: Yeah. She would like that noise. Yeah.

Rosabelle Teesyatoh Shepherd: And then the stamping noise, you know, boom, boom! My family's used to it. I've never heard any of my family complain.

They did say, ‘take your worktable, can you put your worktable in your room?’ I was like, no, I'm going to keep it here in the dining room and kitchen area.

And it's still there.

Ranger Dan: Yeah. Nice.

That's good. So you talk about, you're still thinking about new ways to create pieces, to add in different patterns or try something brand new. Where do you find inspiration for your work and what do you normally incorporate into it?

Rosabelle Teesyatoh Shepherd: My work is really based on, you know, all the designs that I do really are based on elements. Elements that are very important to, you know, the Diné people, the Navajo people. The majority of my designs are going to be rain clouds, rain, plant life, lightning. Those really are the designs that I use and it's my way of acknowledging the elements.

You know, my parents, my grandparents, my ancestors, they lived a life where they gave offerings and did their prayers three times a day: early in the morning, midday, and sunset. Those three times of the day were when they made their offerings and their prayers and these prayers and offerings were made to the elements. And sometimes I think, man, you know, that's a lot.

You know, I fall short on that. You know, I'm not able, you know, to keep that, what do you, ritual or --

Ranger Dan: Devotion?

Rosabelle Teesyatoh Shepherd: you know, I fall short on it. So, I figured that, you know what, when I'm working is going to be my time of giving acknowledgement.

Ranger Dan: Yeah.

Rosabelle Teesyatoh Shepherd: And so, when I'm working, I, you know, in my way, you know, I'm giving acknowledgement to the elements. I feel better about that because I think a lot of the, you know, like my generation and younger, we've lost that regiment of, you know, the praying three times a day.

Ranger Dan: Yeah. Yeah. But it's also comforting to know that your work for 26 years now is being worn all around the world. I mean, you're here at the canyon, people from all over, our folks from Germany here. I mean, like, if you want to buy something, it'd be tomorrow. But it's, I mean, there's folks that are wearing your work and it's that acknowledgement that is then going around the world too. To different places, to different countries, to different cultures. And so, it's there.

It might not be three times a day, but it's every day. It's constantly, which is really cool to think about because before people were just here. Now we're really expanding and going all over.

Rosabelle Teesyatoh Shepherd: That’s true.

Ranger Dan: So, I think you're doing a fantastic job.

Rosabelle Teesyatoh Shepherd: Thank you. Thank you, Dan.

Ranger Dan: Yeah. And so, with the elements too, I think they really came through today because we've had two massive thunderstorms come through Desert View. And when we were talking today earlier, you were mentioning what you grew up with for having to acknowledge these storms with your family.

Can you tell us what that was like?

Rosabelle Teesyatoh Shepherd: So, how I grew up, I was telling Dan today, you know, like when it started to rain and people, you know, ended up being stuck in here, you know, everybody sat down. And I mentioned to my grandson, I said, you know, this is what we're supposed to do when it rains. We're supposed to actually sit down.

The way I grew up was anytime it was, you know, it would start to rain, you know, my brothers and I wanted to like run around in the rain. And my father would always, you know, ‘come in, come in right now, right now!’ And we'd have to go into the hogan and we would have to sit.

I mean, we had to sit. And we'd sit around, you know, in a circle. And my father would always say, ‘you are not supposed to be running around’.

You're not supposed to be, you know, even, we couldn't even like drink water or eat. We would just sit there and we would revere the rain. So, we would all get herded in and we'd sit there, you know, 30 minutes, 40 minutes.

And after it would stop raining, then my father would say, okay, you can go out and play in the water. And I remember during the summers, my brothers and I would herd sheep all day. We'd come home and my mother would have, you know, dinner for us.

We'd eat and we'd, you know, maybe stay up for an hour or so. And then we would be so tired that, you know, we were ready to, you know, go to sleep. And we would fall asleep.

And then in the middle of the night, like midnight, one o'clock, two o'clock, it would start raining. And my father would ‘wake up, wake up. You're not supposed to be laying down when it's raining’.

So, rain is actually sacred. It's a sacred movement and we're supposed to acknowledge it and revere it. And so, in the middle of the night, you know, we would all have to wake up and we would have to sit, sit and just, you know, we could talk a little bit, you know, but, you know, we couldn't like go back to sleep or lay back down.

And I would think, man, I am so tired. And we kind of drift off and my father would, you know, ‘don't sleep. You're not supposed to sleep’.

So, it was actually our way of revering it, revering the element of rain. I was telling Dan that anything of the cosmic nature too is actually a sacred movement. We cannot be in like the eclipse.

We can't be in it. We can't view it. We have to go inside our homes and, you know, close our curtain.

We can't see that darkness because it's sacred. So, things like that, you know, I still observe and I want my children to observe it and I want my grandchildren to observe it. And I hope that, you know, they, you know, with their own children and grandchildren, they'll, you know, keep, you know, observing it because it's really important.

It's very important. These elements are actually, they have so much power that we cannot acknowledge, you know, we can't turn away from it. They have so much power, you know, that without these elements, you know, we wouldn't even be living.

We wouldn't even be living. So, that's how important elements are to the Navajo people.

Ranger Dan: Yeah, they're integral.

And I remember you saying that you can't say a bad thing about them as well.

Rosabelle Teesyatoh Shepherd: Yeah, you know, like, ‘ah’, you know, ‘I hate that wind’ and stuff like that. I always tell my kids, don't, you know, you're not supposed to say that.

‘Oh man, the rain's coming down again. I hate it when it’, no, no, don't say that. Don't say that.

Don't, you know, you don't talk ill of the elements.

Ranger Dan: It's all interconnected in some, in some fashion.

Rosabelle Teesyatoh Shepherd: It is. We are probably, probably like the very least important thing in this life. The very, and, and we think that we humans, we think that we're important.

Ranger Dan: Yeah.

Rosabelle Teesyatoh Shepherd: We think that we're above the four-legged and the winged ones and the plant life and all that. We're not. We're not.

Ranger Dan: We all coexist.

Yeah. And so like your, your work, it reflects what your upbringings have been. It might not be as stringent as like your family observed growing up, but it's in your work and it has a place for sure.

And now when you're demonstrating here, you have Sage with you as well.

Rosabelle Teesyatoh Shepherd: My, my oldest grandson.

Ranger Dan: Yeah.

Rosabelle Teesyatoh Shepherd: My oldest grandson is now 29 and at 20, he wanted to learn what I was doing. And immediately we sat down and started and I started teaching him, you know, everything that I know, everything that I know, you know. I, I, I've been teaching him and I'm waiting for, I want all my grandchildren to know. I want, I want them to at least try it once or twice. If they can just do that, you know, I would, I would be okay with it.

Ranger Dan: Yeah. Yeah. And it's, it's really cool to know as well that you are a fifth generation silversmith and now Sage is the seventh generation silversmith as well.

But you also mentioned that, are you the only...?

Rosabelle Teesyatoh Shepherd: I, I might be the only female in, in my family that is a female silversmith. Because I never heard my father speak of, you know, any like, my grandmother, you know, none of them, you know, silversmith.

And so I might be. And if I am, I'm, I, I'm, I'm like, ‘cool, Rosabelle’.

Ranger Dan: It's pretty neat. It's awesome.

It's your work. It's your standalone. It's your mark and your family.

It holds, which is really, really cool to think about. But what does it, what does it mean for you to be here with Sage, seeing him be the seventh generation silversmith?

Rosabelle Teesyatoh Shepherd: I, I feel complete. I really do because I have at least one grandson who is interested and who has the ability and the capability to do it because he has that creative bug in him.

Ranger Dan: Yeah.

Rosabelle Teesyatoh Shepherd: In my old age, I'm happy with that. That I know that at least I have one grandson who is going to carry it on. And, and even now when he talks, he'll, when we have, you know, like our little conversations, you know, ‘I, I want my son, Zayden and Ry-Ry to, you know, learn silversmithing’. I said, ‘don't forget about your daughter too’.

So he already has in his mind that he wants them to learn that trade.

Ranger Dan: Oh, that's neat.

Rosabelle Teesyatoh Shepherd: Yeah.

Ranger Dan: That's great.

Rosabelle Teesyatoh Shepherd: Yeah.

Ranger Dan: It lives on.

Rosabelle Teesyatoh Shepherd: Yeah.

Ranger Dan: That's, that's beautiful. We know, we know you still got some years ahead, right? For the silversmith in here.

Rosabelle Teesyatoh Shepherd: I hope so. Some day I'll be hammering and I'm thinking, how much longer do you think I'm going to be hammering like this? I mean, a three pound hammer?

Ranger Dan: It's a lot to swing repeatedly. Yeah. Yeah. That's a whole lot.

Rosabelle Teesyatoh Shepherd: It's not just like tapping. It's like, boom, you know, and I'm, and then I'm at the buffing machine too. And I'm hanging on to my jewelry while I'm polishing it.

And then I think, dang, you know, I wonder how much longer I'm going to be doing this.

Ranger Dan: Yeah.

Rosabelle Teesyatoh Shepherd: Because I'm beginning to feel the aches.

Ranger Dan: Okay.

Rosabelle Teesyatoh Shepherd: Yeah. The muscles after working. Yeah. Before, you know, I hardly felt it, but now even from sitting, when I get up, you know, I'm like creaking. I'm stooped over until I straighten up.

Ranger Dan: and everything just pop, pop, pops right into place.

Rosabelle Teesyatoh Shepherd: And I think, man, I wonder how much, do you think I'm going to be silversmithing at 70? But I met one of my, um, old, old friends that I know. He silversmiths and he's like 85. And so I greeted him and I, and clan wise, he's my father. And I said, [speaks Diné].

‘Hey father, you know, what are you doing?’ He goes, ‘oh, I'm just out and about today trying to sell my work’. And I'm like, ‘are you still silversmithing?’ He goes, ‘yeah, yeah. I'm still silversmithing’.

And he told me, he goes, ‘when I first started and I was silversmithing’, he goes, ‘daughter, I've even been to Japan’.

Ranger Dan: Oh, cool.

Rosabelle Teesyatoh Shepherd: This is like 1950, 1960!

Ranger Dan: Yeah.

Rosabelle Teesyatoh Shepherd: Yeah. ‘I've been to Japan. I sold my work out there’.

Ranger Dan: That's cool.

Rosabelle Shepherd: Holy cow.

Ranger Dan: Yeah. I think, I definitely think you’ve got some demonstrations ahead of you for sure. More time to be back here at the Canyon and yeah.

Rosabelle Teesyatoh Shepherd: I'll see.

Ranger Dan: Well, whenever you do come back in the future, bring the rain again, because we will, uh, we will gladly welcome it. Yeah.

Rosabelle Teesyatoh Shepherd: Yeah. It's good. The rain is good.

Ranger Dan: Absolutely. Well, thank you very much, Rosabelle, for participating tonight. And it's always a pleasure to have you out here. It's great to see Sage as well.

When, uh, he's demonstrating and seeing his work come so far by spending time with you and seeing his work just get polished up and yeah. So I can see the aspect of you feeling complete in, in all of this being passed on. I think that's really neat to see.

Thank you very much. Yeah. And have a wonderful safe evening tonight, folks, and watch out for storms while you're here at Grand Canyon.

So thank you.

[Applause]

Rosabelle Teesyatoh Shepherd: I had, I had a customer one time I was, um, I was swinging my, um, hammer and he walks by and he says, a woman with that, a woman with a big hammer like that scares me.

[Laughter]

Outro: Grand Canyon Speaks is a program hosted by Grand Canyon National Park and the Grand Canyon Conservancy.

A special thanks to Aaron White for the theme music. This recording reflects the personal lived experiences of tribal members and do not encompass the views of their tribal nation or that of the national park. To learn more about Grand Canyon First Voices, visit www.nps.gov/GRCA.

Here at Grand Canyon National Park, we are on the ancestral homelands of the 11 associated tribes of the Grand Canyon. These being the Havasupai tribe, the Hualapai tribe, the Navajo nation, the Hopi tribe, the Pueblo of Zuni, the Yavapai Apache nation, the Kaibab band of Paiute Indians, the Las Vegas Paiute tribe, the Moapa band of Paiutes, the Paiute Indian tribe of Utah, and the San Juan Southern Paiute tribe.

In this episode, Ranger Dan spoke with GCC employee Caroline Wilson about her experiences growing up at Grand Canyon with her grandparents. She shares how her Diné culture has played an important role throughout her life and even mentioned some tasty snacks you can find around the Navajo reservation.

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TRANSCRIPT:

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Caroline Wilson Speaks

[Caroline]

I tell my grandkids and my kids, I said, you can't dwell on what things that might have happened to you, what happened to your people a long time ago. It'll just bring you down. So now, you have to look forward.

Look for the good. Only for the good. Yes, remember your history, but look ahead.

That's what I teach the young people and those that I love.

[Meranden]

Hello everyone. Welcome back to Grand Canyon Speaks. This is Meranden.

[Ranger Eliana]

And I'm Ranger Eliana.

[Meranden]

In this episode, Ranger Dan spoke with Grand Canyon Conservancy employee, Caroline Wilson, about what it was like growing up at Grand Canyon with her grandparents.

[Ranger Eliana]

She describes what her childhood was like, from carting wool with her grandma to spending her high school summers working at the hotels in the Grand Canyon village and the town of Tusayan.

[Meranden]

She also talks about some very interesting delicacies you can find on the Navajo reservation.

[Ranger Eliana]

As always, thank you for tuning in to today's episode. Season 2 has been filled with so many amazing episodes, and we're glad to be sharing them with you all.

[Meranden]

And here is Caroline Wilson.

[Caroline]

Hey. Good evening, everybody. My name is Caroline Wilson.

Bighorse is my maiden name. First of all, I'm an elder. I call myself an elder of my people and of my family.

So I'm a grandmother, a mother, and a wife. So it's good to look at people and know who you're talking to. And I figured that's what I would do this evening.

So how many of you know about the Navajo people? Okay. So I want to teach you a word.

Some of my coworkers already know the word. In the South Pacific during World War II, they used our language, the code talker language. And I want to teach you one word, and that way we'll greet one another.

How's that? And so this is not a code word, but it's a greeting word, okay? So I'm going to say it to you, and I want you to say it to me, okay?

Yá'át'ééh. Yá'át'ééh. One more time.

Yá'át'ééh. Yá'át'ééh. Nice to meet all of you also.

And welcome to the Grand Canyon. And I so appreciate Dan for being here. He's kind of a support, and also my coworkers.

Thank you for your support (Speaks Navajo). So it's very nice. The canyon is a blessing to me right now.

I was working at another place, and I was kind of stagnated in my job. I wanted to do something else. And for some reason, I was looking through the newspaper one day, and I saw a conservancy ad in there.

And I didn't know what a conservancy was. I didn't know the meaning. And as I have come to learn what the meaning is about, it's to raise funds for the Grand Canyon.

And in a way that we sell products here at the Watchtower, and 84% of that money goes back into programs that are made available to you that visit us here every day. And I so appreciated that. And I've been here for probably 2 years and 4 months, going on 5 months.

So it's a wonderful place, and I'm sure you agree with me because you're here today to experience this awesome site. And Dan was asking me, what is it that you gained from knowing about the National Park? When I was young, I remember one experience when I was young, maybe around 6 or 7.

My grandfather, he was a medicine man. And he would go out and gather herbs. I didn't know what they were.

So my grandma and him, my grandma and my grandpa, for some reason, I just got in and we came up here. I don't remember which area. And then I followed them.

I guess he was looking for a certain herb. And even though I was really young, I noticed the reverence that he had. And so he went to a certain bush, and then he stood there for a bit and he said a prayer.

And then he finally knelt down on the ground and he reverently took some of those herbs out of the ground. And then he showed me without telling me that this is how you treat plants, especially the ones that you're going to use in ceremonies, and maybe the type that maybe you're going to eat also. And so I remember that to this day.

And then my grandmother, she was a practitioner also. She also gathered herbs. In Navajo, they call her a (Navajo word).

It means to bring children into the world. It wasn't a job because she just knew what to do. And so back in the day, they didn't have hospitals.

And so sometimes a mother would have difficulty giving birth, and then they would send for her. And then she would use these herbs to relieve the pain, and she was able to turn babies also. This was my grandmother Grace.

And so I feel inadequate right now because I didn't learn those things from her. I wasn't able to spend 24 hours with her for the last 67 years, but I was able to appreciate what she did and how I was able to experience her teachings. She was also a weaver also.

And so these are two great people that I've known when I was little. So I'm sharing that with you. It's very personal.

My mother. My mother is Julia Curley, and there's 10 of us that she raised. I'm the second to the oldest.

My brother is the oldest, and then I have siblings. One of them is sitting right here. And so very awesome lady.

When we were little, we didn't have a vehicle to get around, and I didn't know at the time that we were very poor. We didn't know that, or I didn't know that. So the way to get to the hospital, to the grocery stores, we'd go on the road and hitchhike, and then somebody would just pick us up and then take us to the grocery store or to the hospital.

And then that's what I remember. We would either live in a hogan, a tent, or maybe just a shed structure. At that time, we would move with our livestock, my grandparents' livestock.

And Dan was asking me about that. And here, up in the high desert, it doesn't rain constantly, and sometimes you'll have a drought for maybe two years. So you had to move where the water was, where the feed for your animals were.

So we moved great distances, and that's why we lived like a nomadic life. But there was a lot to learn. My grandmother wove, so I must have been about five.

She would say, Here, I want you to card this wool. Here, I'm just a little kid. And the carding things are about this big.

And so you'd be sitting there carding and scratching your arm. But it was something that you'd learn. And you would make a pile of it, and she would look at it.

And she would pick this one out, and then she'd say, Redo these. And you would be sitting there with your arms scratched up. But it was a learning experience.

From carding wool, then you did the spinning. You would sit there, and you would spin the wool. I only got to that point.

I didn't learn to weave. Thank goodness. I mean, there are other people that are really good weavers, but I didn't learn.

So at the age of 10, my mother was introduced to a religion. Missionaries came to see her. I'm not sure why she did it, but I'm sure she probably saw an opportunity where her kids could be educated.

And so we were sent away to school to Southern California, to Los Angeles and San Diego. That's where we learned to speak English fluently. That's how we learned to mingle with everybody.

We lived with different families, but the families that I stayed with, they were my second family. And I appreciate what they did for me, and it made me the person that I am today.

[Ranger Dan]

Thank you for that, Caroline. Those are great words and excellent things for people to understand. Just growing up, you've had so many experiences that you just mentioned.

We could touch upon all of that tonight, and you'd be here until the moon is out and over the horizon. You were talking about how long your family's been in this area earlier. We got back into the 1800s, talking about your great-grandparents.

You're stable today. You're in one location, right? But your great-grandparents, they moved. They moved across this landscape. Can you tell everyone how they moved across this landscape?

[Caroline]

Sure. So the Navajo people, they're a matrilineal society. Everything goes through the ladies, through the women. So our clan system stays with the women.

It goes through the daughters. So they're the ones that are the owners of their land, whatever property that they have. The men, they come in, become part of the family.

And so in the old traditions, the uncles, they're the ones that taught the young ones, the mother's brothers. They're the ones that would teach the offsprings of the mom. The dad was basically there for support and to bring, you know, good things to the family.

And that's what the Navajo people are about. So after the long walk, they were able to go home. I don't know if you know what I'm talking about, but there was a time that the Navajos were gathered up.

They were incarcerated at a place called Bosque Redondo, New Mexico. And they were there for close to six years. And I think there was possibly maybe around 3,500 left of our people.

And they were finally allowed to go home. And they did a treaty with the United States government. And from there, they were allowed to go home.

And this is our homeland here. But some of our people, they weren't rounded up. Guess where they ended up?

Down here. They hid from the soldiers. And they lived most of their time down here.

And once the treaty was signed, then they were able to come out. And they say, well, we were never caught. But there were a lot that were.

And my grandmother on my grandfather's side, she was 10 years old when she walked all the way to Fort Sumner, New Mexico. That's where it is. And so a lot of our people did that.

And so once they were back at their homeland, I think the government, through the treaties, they were given livestock. And they were given different things. And so from there, they rebuilt themselves.

And at the time of my grandmother, she was my grandmother, Grace's grandmother. They called her a (Navajo word). So she had very light-colored hair.

Anyway, she was the only sister to six brothers. So you can imagine the clanship went through her, and a lot of the things went through her. So she was pretty well off.

And so at the time when she was probably in her prime, she had over 2,400 herds of sheep and horses. At that time, they didn't have cattle. And so you can imagine 2,400 sheep, what they eat, and how much water that they needed.

So the people that had that kind of wealth and livestock, they had to travel great distances to find water and feed. And so they could go as far as San Francisco Peaks, all the way into probably southern Utah, all the way into Farmington. So they were able to roam where they were able to take their sheep.

There was no restriction. It wasn't until later that they had to go be only in their area. And so she was able to do that, and she had family members that would help her with that.

And how they used that. You're considered wealthy when you have that much, you know. And Dan asked me what type of monetary, how did they use that.

Did they use money? Did they use, you know? No, they used what they had.

So yearly, spring lambs were taken to the trading post, and the trading post owner would buy those from them, and then they would cart them off wherever they sell that. Sheep wool was very expensive. They would have hundreds of people go from one sheep camp to the other, just shearing, shearing.

It's hard to do. I've done it. My sister just did that for her sister a while ago.

My back won't allow me, but it is very hard. But they used to fill gunny sacks taller than way up here, and then they would go and take those to market, and they would get money for that. And a lot of them, my people were good silversmiths, and they're still well known for that.

The women, well known for their weaving. And all the women that I knew in my family, the older ones, they all wove, and so they would get money from that. And so they were very industrious people when they were at that time.

And I think we still are, even though I don't weave, even though I don't have silversmithing, even though I don't have sheep. I made it my goal to work, and I feel that that's part of the continuing self-sufficiency. Do it for your family.

I have four daughters, my husband Albert. I have ten grandkids. My husband worked for Peabody Coal Company.

They had a coal mine over here at Black Mesa. He worked there for close to 40 years. And so my daughters, they would say, I want to be a welder like my dad.

And then my dad goes, no, that's not a good place for a woman. And guess what they did? They're welders.

And so, yeah, that's what they do, and that's how they support themselves and their families. And so there's not, jobs are not available. As you can see, we have to come all the way out here.

So my son-in-laws, they're also welders or iron workers. So they go as far as Phoenix. It's Utah, sometimes as far as Wyoming, Montana, where jobs, good jobs are available.

So that's why they do it. So that's where we learn to be self-sufficient.

[Ranger Dan]

So you're talking about self-sufficiency, industrialization, being industrious and taking things into your own hands and making something out of it. I mean, like, you were handed wool at five years old and told to cart it, and you're making a product at that point. But you told me earlier that in order to kind of get an escape, but it also was on that self-sufficiency side that the kids from Cameron would come up to the canyon here, work in the hotels or the restaurants, and do some part-time jobs like flipping beds and doing whatever else.

What was that time like to come up here?

[Caroline]

That was high school years. When you want to be away from your parents and get into things you're not supposed to get into. So I think I started around my junior year, and I had a bunch of friends at Cameron.

I said, let's go do something. And so we hitchhiked to the village and then to Tusayan, and we were hired right away to be bussers. And they gave us a room there, and we stayed in a dorm.

And that's what we did all summer long. We probably made about $500. But hey, that's money.

So you buy maybe a pair of pants or a shirt or something nice. And we did that every summer when we were free. It was a way to get away from our parents and just have fun.

And so a lot of us were bussers. Some of them helped the maids take the sheets off the beds. And then in the evening we would take off, and we knew young people would be at the movies or they would have that in the village there.

And that was a fun time.

[Ranger Dan]

Yeah, it's part of the community at that point. It's the community of Cameron. It's the community up here as well.

And yeah, there are great ties for everyone to come up here. So out of curiosity, did you work at the El Tovar ever, the Bright Angel, the hotels on the rim of the canyon?

[Caroline]

We did one stint at the El Tovar. They had a dorm right there behind the El Tovar where they would house the kids. And then one of my friends says, let's go to Tusayan.

Let's go over there and do some bussing. They give good tips over there. And guess where we went?

We went over there. Yeah, cool.

[Ranger Dan]

Yeah, I hope the people at the El Tovar are getting good tips now. It's the swanky hotel up here on the rim of the canyon. So your time frame here has changed as it's gone on.

You've become stationary. You've had the family. You've grown in this space here, but also traveled at the same time, like going out to California, being educated.

Do you feel your views on this area, your perspective has changed as time has gone on?

[Caroline]

Oh, yes, uh-huh. I believe it has. So when you're young, when you're really young, you have the influence of your grandparents and your parents, and they teach you up to a certain point.

But as you get a little bit older and you're a teenager, then you have another perspective, and then you learn things, maybe things that you shouldn't learn, you know. But that's a great lesson too, you know. And you say, well, I'm not going to do that again, you know, those type of things.

And then now, I've been working for quite a few years, and I do have a different perspective. I may not be as traditional as most Navajos because I have teachings that were given to me from a lot of people, not just my own family. And you choose your path.

It's not bad, you know. You choose what people have taught you. And I try to teach my daughters and my grandkids, but they're still going to make that choice, whether they want to be traditional or nontraditional or maybe semi, you know, whatever they want to do.

Maybe they'll carry both traditions. And so I have grandkids that are, their ancestry, they're part German. And a lot of the Navajo people, the world has opened up to them.

And what we've been taught as kids, the kids, you know, they don't take that and use it. They go their own way. That's why we have a lot of in-laws from all over the world.

And they live on our land, and our people have moved to New York City. They live in the Caribbean. They live in Hawaii.

Some of them even, my granddaughter, she's in the Navy right now. She's somewhere in France. So she goes, I can't tell you, it's a secret.

[Ranger Dan]

And the postcard's redacted.

[Caroline]

But her name is Caitlin, and now she's traveling the world, things that I didn't do. I don't like airplanes. So my kids wanted to take me to Hawaii.

I said, you're going to have to put me to sleep to go over there. But anyway, that's how it is nowadays. And my grandparents used to say, you marry your own kind.

Don't marry outside your tribe. And it didn't work. And that's why we have so many people that we live with here in this area, people of other nations.

And I'm sure at one time we were enemies. We didn't like each other. We killed each other, you know.

There was a time that that's how it was. And all over the world, that's like that. There's a time you become who you are, and through your teachings, you look at people a different way.

And it's good that you're able to do that. And that's why I love being here. I get to meet people from all over the world.

Your humanity starts showing, you know. Because when you're a minority like I am, I've experienced a lot of racism. It's a hard thing to deal with.

But you also meet a lot of good people out there. And I tell my grandkids and my kids, I said, you can't dwell on what things that might have happened to you, what happened to your people a long time ago. It'll just bring you down.

So now you have to look forward, look for the good, only for the good. Yes, remember your history, but look ahead. That's what I teach the young people and those that I love.

[Ranger Dan]

I think, yeah. (Applause) Thank you. I think your teachings go beyond your family.

I like to say we've got the Grand Canyon family up here as well. And so learning from you and from Marian, I learn something every day. And so those teachings go beyond just your family.

It might not be said outright, but with the staff here at the park, yeah, we learn a lot from both of you every day up here at the canyon. And we're very proud to call you all family and friends. Awesome.

Thank you. And some of these lessons, we talk a lot about food. If you hang out with me, you'll learn that I like to talk about food.

So if you spend time out here, you get to know that there are certain things that are like delicacies in the area. And we brought one up today. I have not had it yet, but I think people need to learn about Piccadilly a little bit here just to get a little flavor of what a treat this is in the surrounding communities.

[Caroline]

Anybody know about Piccadilly? How many of you like pickles? How many of you like Kool-Aid?

How many of you like snow cones? All right. So they combine all that into a treat, plus the pickles.

And that's a Piccadilly of the Navajo Nation. And gummy candy. And when I first tasted it, I wasn't too sure.

And I'm like, oh, gosh. And after a while, it tasted okay. And then now I'll have it every other week.

So see this tree right here? This is a juniper tree. So some of them already have the berries on there.

They're edible when they turn purple. So it's a native food. So what we do with that is you can crush it, dry it, and use it in a porridge.

Or you can just plop it in your mouth and eat it if you want to. And so you can take the little nubs, like the leaves, you burn that into an ash. And then you put it in your cereal with corn.

Or you can take coffee. You can do that with cornmeal, too. And it's a type of delicacy that we have that we use in our foods.

So if you look up here, up here, this is a pinyon pine tree. Do you see the little nubs on there? That's going to produce the pinyon pine nuts.

And we're going to have a good crop this fall. It's very hard on the knees because you have to get down on your knees and pick up the pine nuts. That's another storage food.

You would gather those in the fall and store it. And that was another way to survive the winter. So just a few of the foods that Dan is talking about.

There are so many. So I want to share one experience that I had while I was out pinyon picking. Oh, I love to pick pinyons.

I'm one of the first ones there. So one morning I called my mother. I said, Mom, can you go pinyon picking with me?

And she goes, No, I'm busy. So I'm calling around to people, and then I found my uncle's wife. Her name is Eileen.

She goes, Yeah, yeah, yeah. She talks really fast. She goes, Yeah, yeah, yeah, let's go.

So it took us like 30 minutes to get everything together, and we took off. There's a place right over here. There's big pinyon trees.

So we went over there. We got there around 8.30, and we just immediately just started picking pinyons. Then around 1 o'clock, let's take a break.

Let's eat some lunch. So we took out our Vienna sausage and crackers, and we had that for lunch. As we were finishing up, I said, Eileen, let's move the truck over here, maybe 200 yards.

So she said okay, so she took off again. So I got in my vehicle, and I moved the truck away. I was getting out of my vehicle, and I heard 2 girls talking.

It was coming from the east, and there's a road that goes along the side of the forest. I thought, I wonder who's parked over there. When they were talking, I couldn't make out the language.

I said, I wonder who is that? I stood there waiting for them to come out of the woods. Then curiosity got the best of me, so I went out there, and I started walking up a little ways.

Then I kind of had this tingling on my back. I said, oh my gosh, what is that? Then they never came out.

Then I looked around. Before I started picking pinons, I walked maybe a half a mile around radius to see where I could find the big ones. So I looked around where I walked.

I didn't see anything. I said, I wonder if they came before we came. Then I'm standing there, and then again I heard the two girls talking, two young girls.

They were laughing. I thought, who are they? I said, hello, and there was no answer.

Then I just thought, wow. While I was doing the check in the morning, I came upon some ruins. They look like this, but a smaller version, just to the east.

They were the old ruins that you see out in the forest. So I said, Eileen, come back, because I kind of got, it got a little bit eerie after that. So the only thing that I could come to about that experience was they were people that lived there before.

They were laughing and talking and walking and talking with each other. I didn't meet them, but I heard them. So that was my experience I wanted to share with you.

So you are in their land. They used to live here, and now we do.

[Ranger Dan]

. This place is home to the people now, and also before, but also for the people in the future.

[Caroline]

Exactly.

[Ranger Dan]

This is a place to be preserved and cared about, and it's wonderful to see that come through with you every single day, working here at the Watchtower and for the Conservancy, because as you've expressed here, working with them is doing the good things that you like to see preserved here and help to protect this place altogether. Completely agree with you. So for a final question here for you, when they come here, and this is also to park staff, anybody who comes here, one thing they should remember about this landscape?

[Caroline]

Just what you're talking about. Don't litter. My grandfather used to say the high places are sacred places.

And I think every place is, when you really think about it, but they would go up into high places and say their prayers. That's what I consider here. This is sacred ground to me, and anywhere on the rez when I go, I envision that.

So I want my great-great-grandchildren to come here and see what you see. And so let us all take care of the National Parks. What a great legacy we're going to have when we do that.

That's my takeaway from that.

[Ranger Dan]

Thank you very much, Caroline. Thank you.

[Ranger Jonah]

♪♪♪ ♪♪♪ ♪♪♪ Grand Canyon Speaks is a program hosted by Grand Canyon National Park and the Grand Canyon Conservancy. A special thanks to Aaron White for the theme music. This recording reflects the personal, lived experiences of tribal members and do not encompass the views of their tribal nation or that of the National Park.

To learn more about Grand Canyon First Voices, visit www.nps.gov/GRCA. Here at Grand Canyon National Park, we are on the ancestral homelands of the 11 associated tribes of the Grand Canyon. These being the Havasupai Tribe, the Hualapai Tribe, the Navajo Nation, the Hopi Tribe, the Pueblo of Zuni, the Yavapai Apache Nation, the Kaibab Band of Paiute Indians, the Las Vegas Paiute Tribe, the Moapa Band of Paiutes, the Paiute Indian Tribe of Utah, and the San Juan Southern Paiute Tribe.

In this episode, Ranger Dawn sat down with Darance “Makwesa” Chimerica about being a kachina doll carver for over 26 years. He provides some insight into how it’s been a journey of challenges but also many accomplishments. He also speaks on his involvement with the Hopitutskwa Permaculture as a board member.

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TRANSCRIPT:

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Darance Chimerica Speaks

[Makwesa]

I'm going to do this, and in two years, I'm going to be really good. I'm going to go to all these shows. I'm going to, you know, make it big.

Hopefully get a car or something for myself. But that didn't happen. It took a very, very long time for me to accomplish some of the things that I had envisioned.

[Lakin]

Hello, everyone. Welcome back to Grand Canyon Speaks. This is Lakin.

[Meranden]

And this is Meranden.

[Lakin]

In this episode, Ranger Dawn spoke with Darance Makwesa Chimerica, who has been a Hopi Kachina carver since 1997.

[Meranden]

He describes how his art allowed him to explore many places around the world with his family and develop as an artist.

[Lakin]

In addition to his carving, he is a dryland farmer and sits on the board for Hopi Tutskwa Permaculture, which is a non-profit based in the village Kykotsmovi.

[Meranden]

Thanks for tuning in, and here is Makwesa.

[Makwesa]

I'm Darance Chimerica. A lot of the people at home on Hopi refer to me by my Hopi name, Makwesa. I live about an hour and a half from here on the Hopi reservation.

And I'm here for three days to show some of Hopi culture, Kachina dolls.

[Ranger Dawn]

I wanted to start off by asking you about your craft and how you got into Kachina doll making and what it means.

[Makwesa]

I started in 1997. I had grandfathers on my mother's and my father's side that both did Kachina dolls. And my mother's father, my grandfather, he was a textile weaver, so he did traditional textile weaving.

And in high school, elementary, you're already starting to prepare for what you want to be. You ask children what they want to be when they grow up. Some want to be doctors, policemen, firemen, astronauts, all of these things.

But me, I really had no clue of what I was going to do after when I graduated high school. So at the time, during my high school years, my aunt's boyfriend at the time introduced me to carving. Kachina doll carving.

And I did some of the basics. And after high school, I did masonry, fence working, and all of that. But it just didn't really fit me.

I didn't really have the desire to continue. So I started looking into Kachina doll carving. You know, being out of high school, being young, 18 years old, thinking I'm going to do this.

And in two years, I'm going to be really good. I'm going to go to all these shows. I'm going to, you know, make it big.

Hopefully get a car or something for myself. But that didn't happen. It took a very, very long time for me to accomplish some of the things that I had envisioned.

Three years after high school, you know, it's still, you know, I was struggling. And in 2003, luckily, you know, I met a gallery owner and he introduced me to other people. And those people were the ones that launched my carving career.

That was my first big show in 2003 when I went to a gallery and I was able to display some of my Kachina doll carvings. And to this day, there's, I'm still, you know, connected to them. And we, there are older men now, they're in their 70s and they're up there in their years.

So after I went through so many trial and errors, failures, and, you know, accomplishments. And, you know, reaching some of my goals and then applying to some of these art shows that I saw advertised. Thinking, you know, it would be easy getting into these shows, but they're very, very, you know, competitive.

And your work, you're competing against some of the high-end artists. So me being, you know, down at the bottom of the ladder, you know, it didn't come. So finally in 2008, I finally got into the big market, the Santa Fe Indian Art Market, which is held in August.

And I think that's when I felt like things started to turn for the good. After that, you know, I just kept going. It's just very competitive in the art world, especially carving amongst hundreds of Hopi carvers.

You know, they look down on you, they look at you, they see who you are and your style of work. So it was pretty hard at the moment to where I almost kind of gave up. But with Hopi dolls, it's just not just an art form, but it's also a traditional practice that is taught to the Hopis.

Kachina dolls are given to young children, females, and they're given to them as teaching tools when they're first born as infants. And then as they grow up to the age of 12, and that's when they start to go into another phase of approaching adulthood. And then after that, you know, the doll grows with them.

They're given simple dolls, and as they grow older, they become more detailed and more elaborate. But there's a lot of history in Kachina doll making and the people that first started carving them. But that's just a little bit of history of how I started and where I came from.

[Ranger Dawn]

Yeah, it sounds like you had a big support system behind you getting started.

[Makwesa]

Yeah, I did. I had family. Well, my mother, my father, they didn't push me to, you know, you got to do something, you know.

They just left it up to me to, you know, figure out what I want to do after I graduated. And I have three children. I have my son, my oldest is 11.

I have a daughter that's nine and I have my youngest is four. Right now, my support is solely my immediate family, my kids and my wife.

[Ranger Dawn]

Yeah, when we were talking earlier, you were describing like your current lifestyle now, like with your children and how school works. So do you want to like kind of talk about that?

[Makwesa]

Yeah, so my kids, they're homeschooled. The benefits of that, you know, being self-employed is I get to wake up to my children every morning. My wife, you know, she's a homemaker.

Plus she has she works with the university with the cancer prevention program. So she's able to work from home. And yet she's able to, you know, when the kids are in school, she tends to them if they need help or if there's a parent that needs to be involved, she's there.

And occasionally I'll be a part of it when I'm not too busy. But I'm the one that, you know, makes the money, pay the bills and, you know, carry all that load. But my children are homeschooled and I do a lot of different shows.

Recently, I just got back from Washington, D.C. And that's the good thing about, you know, homeschooling. I'm able to take my children with me to these shows and they're able to benefit from that. Going to the museums, learning and then seeing the different environments and then the cities and then, you know, just participating in that way.

And I'm thankful for my wife. You know, while I'm doing my art show, she's there to tend to the kids, take them to all the museums. And, you know, they have a blast.

And, you know, I think it's good for everybody, for us, you know, because they're able to. We were in Washington. They went to the Lincoln Memorial.

They went to the Spy Museum. And it's a good thing, you know.

[Ranger Dawn]

Yeah, that's definitely a unique experience growing up with a lot of hands-on learning, which I thought was really cool. Yeah. So when you're taking your kids to your shows and they're watching you make art, how do you want to be a role model to them?

Like, what do you want to impart on them?

[Makwesa]

Well, you know, it's just, you know, some parents are, you know, you got to go to university to succeed. While with me, I don't feel that it's particularly you have to go to a university to succeed. You can go to a trade school or you can go into the art world.

But with my experience with being an artist, you know, I'd rather not have my children go into the art world because it's very, you know, it took me a while. I've been doing this for 25, 26 years. And it took me a while to know, to find my place in the art world where I know I feel like I am succeeding.

And all of the failures and accomplishments, like I explained earlier, you know, those things sometimes can wear you down. But I just tell my children, you know, well, my only daughter, she already has something envisioned that what she wants to be is she wants to be a dentist for kids. Because she really likes, she's really friendly.

She's really outgoing. She's really, you know, when she sees babies, she's like really attentive to them. So that is kind of something that's probably that would fit her.

And then, you know, the Hopi values of where we come from, you know, that's another part of what I try to incorporate with our daily lives. Our culture is still active. We're still trying to preserve it the best way we can.

And I'm heavily active in my culture, tending to Hopi cultural activities. And my son, you know, he's 11 and he's getting to that age to where, you know, I'm going to start to teach him all of what I know. You know, planting, we Hopis are dry farmers.

All we rely on is the elements, the snow and the rain. And those are my goals is to try to be the best parent, you know, raising them in both worlds of the Hopi and the modern society. So, but that's what I want to teach my kids.

You know, and then what I what I'm doing, you know, hard work can get you somewhere. You know, you just got to be good at it and not, you know, go half ass on it.

[Ranger Dawn]

Yeah, so true. Yeah, I feel like when I was talking to you, I got a sense of just like how resilient you were, like doing this for so long. And then all the ups and downs you had to go through.

So I think that's great that you were trying to teach your kids that. So you've been doing this for how many years?

[Makwesa]

26 years. 26 years. Yeah.

[Ranger Dawn]

How do you see yourself growing in your craft?

[Makwesa]

Well, OK, when I first did my first show, one of my first, he was a gallery owner in Santa Fe and he retired and he's almost about 80. But I remember in 2003 when I met him, he said to me that this was just like maybe two, three years ago. He told me that, man, you changed a lot.

And he goes, when I first met you, you never really said anything. You were very quiet and just trying to make you talk, get you to talk was kind of a task. So doing the art and then demonstrating and going to these art shows, I think I've started to develop myself into learning how to speak.

Because when you're on Hopi, we're really secluded. Where Hopi is located, it's about an hour and a half here. And there's three mesas, first, second and third mesa, and there's 12 villages.

And each mesa has different villages. For instance, like the first mesa, there's three villages on top of a plateau. And those villages are called Walpi, Sitsomovi, and Tewa.

Then on the second mesa, you have Musangnuvi, Supawlavi, and Songoopavi. And then on the third mesa, you have Kikotsmovi, Old Orayvi, Paaqavi, and Hotvela. And then 45 miles from all the villages, there is a farming village, and that is called Munqapi.

And just trying to teach my children about Hopi values and the modern society, it's challenging with the distractions. But it's not going anywhere, so you just got to incorporate it and try and live both lives, two worlds.

[Ranger Dawn]

Totally. Yeah, that makes sense. Not only is Darance a kachina doll carver and a very talented one, he's also really into permaculture.

So I don't know if you wanted to talk about that a bit.

[Makwesa]

Yeah, so I'm on the board of the Hopi Tutskwa Permaculture. And what that is, is that it's a local program that is funded by Hopi-owned couple. Their name is Jacobo and Lillian Hill.

And what they do is that, well, when they first started, they were building straw bale homes for Hopi families. And they were using natural resources from around the area, building materials, straw bales, cob, using all the clay. So with that, Jacobo, the organizer, approached me and asked if I would like to be on the board.

I said, sure. So I'm new to the board now. I just recently got on.

I've been on there for now two months. But we actually live in one of those permaculture homes, straw bale homes. And with that, it's a great thing for the environment, using all natural building material.

Nothing chemical. The earth is earthen floor. The walls are straw bale.

The inside of the walls are cob. And it's a really good home for winter insulation. But then city life, building codes, they vary.

It's interesting that we do plants, trees. They do farmer's markets. They try to incorporate Hopi seeds, native seeds.

And they distribute to other families to try and help them build up their seed bank. So that's what permaculture is about.

[Ranger Dawn]

I'm personally a super fan of that. I love that. I think that's so interesting.

And it definitely shows how much you value exposing Hopi culture and teaching others about it, which I think I can definitely tell you value that a lot, which is great. You kind of touched on it earlier. What is your idea of success?

[Makwesa]

My idea of success is the basic things. You're more rich than you think you are. If you have food on the table, a roof over your head, and transportation, and your family's healthy, I think that's more success than anything.

And that's what I have. I have the basic necessities. I have a home.

My kids are healthy. Sometimes just being humble about what you have. Anywhere in any society, movie stars, art world, musicians, artists, all that, you have different personalities.

You have some that like to be out there, are very outspoken. But me, I'm kind of more of the silent person. And just be humble and just let my artwork do the talking.

And with that, I think that's part of my success, is just letting my work do the talking. If you like it, good. If not, then it's OK.

I've gone through a lot. What I do, I'm very fortunate to where I had no idea where I was going to be or where I was going to end up. I went to Japan for 18 days, and I was able to experience the culture there, the foods and all of that, meet the people.

And these dolls took me there. And recently I was in Florida and Washington, D.C., and I still got other events coming up through the year. So it's been a very good journey so far.

So that's what I think is success, with anything, just to go hard at it.

[Ranger Dawn]

Yeah, that's a great sentiment to share. And yeah, Darance is definitely very humble when he's talking about his work. He's very talented and has been all over the place with his work.

I guess I have one last question. What do you want them to take away from this talk, from your work?

[Makwesa]

Well, I can't really tell you what to think or what to say or how to feel. But just the kachina figure did have a real big impact on society. So what I'm trying to incorporate is that I'm trying to revive some of the techniques that were done back in the 1800s, early 1900s.

Being very simple, using natural material, paints. And back then they used vegetable dyes, mineral dyes, and they used yucca plant for a paintbrush. So all of that, they tried to incorporate what they had in their environment into their kachina dolls.

So with that, there's the meaning behind the kachina dolls. And Hopi is katsina. And they represent life, long life.

And not just for the Hopi people, for everybody, for every race. What we do inside the kivas is not just for ourselves or for material things. We do it for the sake of everybody and for every living thing.

We don't do it just to do it. So that's part of what we are, of being Hopi. We're agricultural people.

We are not like some of the tribes up in the north where they're the Sioux, the Crow, the Blackfeet. They're more of a warrior tribe, the Comanche, the Apache. They are the warrior tribe.

But the Hopis are more of a peaceful people, agricultural people. So what I have here is a (Hopi word), which is a clown. And what he does is that during a dance, when there's a kachina dance, a group of these clowns will come off the roof.

And they'll be yelling, and then they'll be screaming and laughing. And they'll be talking in Hopi and talking to each other like, how are we going to get down from this roof? And then we'll be looking down and see.

What they see on the ground is everything is green, everything is nice. And they want to get down to the bottom to see all of that. So they'll maybe get a rope and have a tire.

And then they'll throw each other off the roof like a bungee, like one of those bungee cord things. I don't know what you call them. They'll be getting off, and ladies and people will be yelling and screaming and laughing.

So they'll get to the bottom, and they kind of mimic the bad things of society. And you see, you hear the people laughing at what they're doing. So it's kind of a teaching that you're laughing at some of the things that you guys are doing that is wrong.

They misbehave. They say things that's really not, you know, very nice. But they are the ones that, you know, kind of teach the people how to be and not how to act and, you know, proper behavior.

So then this one, this one's called (Hopi word). He is considered one of the rain kachinas and symbolizes the big cumulus summer dark rain clouds, moisture, and the rain, and all the good things of water. When he appears, he usually carries a boar, and he'll spin that, kind of like making that noise, that vroom, vroom, vroom, vroom, vroom.

So what that's, what he's representing is that he's trying to bring all the moisture, all the clouds, all the rain, and everything to him. All of the symbols are all traditional Hopi symbols. So each kachina has a meaning.

So a lot of people wonder, like, you know, did I make up the designs? I said, no, these are, these are all traditional. And these are all painted with natural earth mineral paints that I hand collect, and I hand process myself.

[Ranger Dawn]

So, yeah. No, that was great.

[Makwesa]

Kind of went, went the long route on that one.

[Ranger Dawn]

No, I think it was wonderful. Thank you so much for, for sharing your dolls and for sharing your story.

[Makwesa]

Yeah.

[Ranger Dawn]

I can open it up to questions now, if anyone has any.

[Makwesa]

Yeah, everybody have any questions? You know, yeah. Do I see any changes from the 10 years I've been here?

Well, there's one thing I've been really excited about. So when I first came, when I would do a transaction, I would have to walk to the post, to that, the ice cream store there. And then when they're doing construction, this was last year, I had to walk all the way to the bathroom to get my transaction done.

But this year was the first time I was actually able to do it inside the watchtower. But going to my work from my workspace at home, doing my, my artwork, not knowing where my dolls are going to end up. Who's going to, you know, I can't predict where they're going to be.

So, you know, when I do these shows, people that approach me, the reactions, the feelings, you know, that I get pays off. And plus, you know, it pays bills and daily life, you know, to live in society. But that's the most rewarding thing that I could ask for is, you know, just meeting the people, experiencing the places that I've been, eating the foods.

And, you know, it's just been wonderful. And, you know, I don't I don't want to stop. But with me being a self-employed, you know, you get to manage your own time schedule.

You know, I don't want to work today. I want to spend time with my kids. I want to take them.

I want to take them to the zoo. I'm able to do that. But, you know, at the beginning, you know, it was kind of, you know, unpredictable if you were going to make it through the show, if you were going to have income.

And then when COVID hit, you know, that was a very scary time because being self-employed, I wasn't able to rely on the check coming. It wasn't guaranteed. Then, you know, friendships was the real big thing that really got me out of it.

And I'm really thankful for that, for the people that I've met. I feel like I owe them a lot for helping me and getting me through those hard times. And right now, you know, you still kind of feel the effects of it.

But now I think it's trending to a good, you know, the economy is not very well, but, you know, people are still out there. They're buying and then, you know, things are looking good and I'm happy.

[Ranger Dawn]

That's wonderful. I love that you like grounded yourself in gratitude and that things are looking up for you. Well, it was so wonderful talking to you and getting to know you.

Yeah. Thank you so much. Everyone want to give a hand for this.

[Ranger Jonah]

Grand Canyon Speaks is a program hosted by Grand Canyon National Park and the Grand Canyon Conservancy. A special thanks to Aaron White for the theme music. This recording reflects the personal lived experiences of tribal members and do not encompass the views of their tribal nation or that of the National Park.

To learn more about Grand Canyon First Voices, visit www.nps.gov/GRCA. Here at Grand Canyon National Park, we are on the ancestral homelands of the 11 associated tribes of the Grand Canyon. These being the Havasupai Tribe, the Hualapai Tribe, the Navajo Nation, the Hopi Tribe, the Pueblo of Zuni, the Yavapai Apache Nation, the Kaibab Band of Paiute Indians, the Las Vegas Paiute Tribe, the Moapa Band of Paiutes, the Paiute Indian Tribe of Utah, and the San Juan Southern Paiute Tribe.

On a rainy day, Ranger Kelli got to speak with Chris Lewis about his work as a fiber/textile artist and how he’s incorporated his studies of earlier basketry over the years. He was also able to talk about his position on the board of directors for the Bears Ears Partnership and be one of the voices for Pueblo of Zuni.

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TRANSCRIPT:

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Chris Lewis Speaks [Chris Lewis] Knowing how deeply rooted it was, and that everyone was turning to imported baskets, my sense and my thing was, we need to bring actual handmade baskets back to the village, the technology behind it, to learn and do all that.

[Meranden] Hello everyone, welcome to another episode of Grand Canyon Speaks. This is Meranden.

[Lakin] And this is Lakin.

[Meranden] We would like to take the time to thank you all for listening to Season 2 so far. It has been a lot of fun being able to work on and publish these episodes over the year.

[Lakin] We are also recording and interviewing over the summer for Season 3 at Desert View, so if you're ever in the area, come check it out for our evening sunset talks.

[Meranden] Getting back to the episode, this is about Chris Lewis. He is from the Pueblo of Zuni and shares his studies and passions as a fiber artist.

[Lakin] His basketry has allowed him to learn a lot about ancestral weaving and understand how he can revitalize it in his own work.

[Meranden] He also mentions his participation being on the board of directors for the Bears Ears Partnership and the importance of educating people on ancestral lands.

[Lakin] Once again, thank you for tuning in, and here is Chris Lewis.

[Chris Lewis] ♪♪♪ (Introduces self in Zuni) Hello, my name is Christopher Lewis from Zuni. My clans are Badger, and I'm a child to Corn. My parents are Jocelyn Lewis and the late William Lewis.

I'm honored to be here to speak with you guys.

[Ranger Kelli] Chris, if you could just kind of talk about what you are doing down at the Watchtower with our demonstration program.

[Chris Lewis] I'm here as a fiber artist. Not a lot of people use that term, but I deal with fibers, textiles, strings, then the basketry, getting to plant materials and grasses and feather work, which is all part of the fiber arts. So it's a wide range of things that I work with in that capacity.

[Ranger Kelli] And I was speaking earlier with Chris down at the tower, and, man, I was down there for about three hours, by the way, just talking to him about all the stuff that he does. And I actually watch one of your YouTube videos, and on there it said basketry. I know that you have some baskets here.

I just want to know how long have you been doing basketry, but also textile through weaving as well?

[Chris Lewis] Basketry, I've probably been doing maybe, I would say, about 18 years, physical work of making basketry, but the passion behind basketry, study of basketry, started back in high school. Baskets are deeply rooted in Zuni culture. A lot of things take place with the basket being there.

In Zuni, baskets are called ho'inne. Also in Zuni, a human being is called ho'inne. So the baskets and the human being share the same name.

Until recently, I found out that the baskets, the very, very middle of a basket is called the belly button, and the spiral from the belly button out is called the road that we live on till the end of where the basket terminates. That's the human life and where our roads terminate in that basket. But I assume and think that a lot of those traditions come from when the basket makers, all they made were baskets.

Those traditions and things are yet far deeply rooted in the Pueblo culture. So I would say physically, working with my hands about 18 years, but the study of basketry has been about 40, 45 years.

[Ranger Kelli] And we'll go more deeper into what he meant by, like, studied basketry for 45 years a little bit later because I have so many questions to ask about that. But I just want to know what inspired you to work in baskets and weaving and textiles.

[Chris Lewis] I would say about the time I started learning different styles of basketry, there were maybe three or four people left in Zuni doing any type of basketry. If it was grass or plated pot rest, that was it. Nobody was weaving or making coil baskets, plated ring baskets, any type of basketry at all.

A lot of those completely had died out in the village. So just trying to think of how to revive and bring that back. And yet the wicker work also was.

I think there was only one person left doing wicker work in the village. So knowing how deeply rooted it was and that everyone was turning to imported baskets, my sense and my thing was we need to bring actual handmade baskets back to the village, the technology behind it to learn and do all that.

[Ranger Kelli] I love the language that you said, revive. And I think that's very powerful as into kind of like what we're doing today here at the canyon. You know, I think that your voice here is reviving these like traditional knowledge that needs to be heard out in the public.

And as Grand Canyon, we have about three million visitors that come every year to the South Rim. And these stories are carried down for many generations. And it's just really amazing to see your tools here that are very traditional.

And I'd like for you to kind of, if you want to explain a little bit more of these tools that you have here to our audience and maybe like the meaning of it, what would you use that for?

[Chris Lewis] Before I do that, I'm going to jump back to the first question. You asked about textiles. I said revive.

It's also revive and to revitalize. Those are the two important R words in the basketry and stuff. Revive, revitalize.

Textiles, the reason why I got into textiles was I could not constantly afford to buy my kids belts. All the different dances they do and stuff, I wanted to learn. And then also not only buying for the family, but also buying for paybacks.

We have a lot of godchildren, so when we have godchildren, we have to have traditional clothing, street attire that we put into bundles that we give them after we accept them. The belts are one of the items. Then also mantas, capes.

I weave all in traditional twills that I learned. Very few people nowadays weave in those traditional twills, diamond twill, diagonal twill, herringbone, all of that. A lot of it was declining, but there's a revitalization in that also, in the textiles.

Out of necessity, I learned to provide for my family, my kids, my nieces, nephews, other family members in that way. I always say as a Native artist, I don't think we'll ever become rich because half of what we make, we end up giving to relatives for ceremonies, weddings, birthday, Christmas, things like that. It's not the store-bought gifts, the money, but to get items like that, we say that makes you richer as a human.

A lot of that goes to that. That's where I got into the textiles and textile arts. Now to go to the basketry, the bone tools I use came out of the necessity of when I started working with baskets.

I don't know how far I'm going to go back into the next one, but I work on a project that I get to study artifacts in major museums from the greater southwest area, from around Grand Canyon all the way to Mesa Verde, all the southeast Utah and northern Arizona. Some of the things I look at are archaic basket maker, so you look at a couple thousand-year-old objects, and I replicate. I study them in museums, and I take pictures.

When I look at them, I take pictures to help me remember. Then I go back home, and I try, try, try to replicate that style of basket. Mesa Verde plated ring basket with a false braid rim was made 950 years ago, and then during the pandemic, I replicated one.

Those baskets, I studied those at the Penn Museum. I studied 11 of them, found 9 variations of that braid, and I've replicated 3 of those styles of that braid. In order to replicate them, you have to have the tools that our ancestors used prehistorically.

So a lot of my tools, and my kids love to tease me about it because they call me a Flintstone because I work with bones and stones, rocks. But a lot of my tools, I had to learn how to shape. A lot of my tools are all deer leg bones, so grinding them down, getting the shape, the same way that you see prehistoric awls.

The majority of my awls are all deer with the exception of a few eagle wing bone awls for finer things. Some of the visitors today got a kick because they said, these bones are heavier. I said, yeah, they were dinner.

They're sheep leg bones. So whatever bone, I try and see how they'll work and play around with them. But a lot of my awls, I did have to learn how to make to keep the work similar to what our ancestors prehistorically made.

[Ranger Kelli] I think that's really cool to reconnect with the past of people who have, I guess you can say, in a way have lived in these areas in the southwest region. Mesa Verde, if you all haven't been around to that park, it's actually a national park area that is near the Four Corners region. It's a very amazing human history there of the southwest, especially of the tribes that are still here today that go back to those locations and learn about their ancestors.

And I just want to ask you, Chris, how do you feel reconnecting in that way of the work that you are doing with replicating the tools, but as well as the styles that you are learning from the past? How do you feel about that?

[Chris Lewis] I guess in a way, I feel honored that these objects, I go into collections, first thing I do, stepping in, I acknowledge, I greet, and I feed. When I walk into museum collections, we believe every object we touch and study still has the soul of the plant, the soul of the maker, and still a living entity because of that. So we acknowledge them, we greet them, feed them, and offer our prayers and offerings to them.

So in turn, I think with showing that respect and everything, the makers impart their knowledge and make things clear when we're studying to see what they look like and how they go, how they're assembled. Then for me to see and handle them, my mind goes, just looking at a basket, how intelligent that person was, knowing how baskets are made, but the way they were made. There's one basket that I'm currently trying to replicate.

Today we think the size of the basket is determined by the length of the yucca leaf, how big and how deep you can make it. This basket I had studied at the Penn Museum is 16 1⁄2 inches across by 9 1⁄2 inches deep. So that means you have to be long yucca.

It's made up of three short pieces, and the locks they did are very intricate. Baskets are woven on an eight-sided hexagon shape to fit a ring. This basket is woven on a 16-side.

That's why I'm intrigued to try and figure out how they wove it on 16 sides. It's not a two-strand bind, it's a single loop bind, which I'm really wanting to try my hand at because looking at it, trying to see when I studied it. And if you can believe this basket I'm studying, I have over 300 photos of one basket.

I've counted every strand in it and how many strands before this lock goes this way, how many times this one goes that way. It's ridiculous. I actually made a trip back to the Penn Museum to spend four hours with that basket to get those pictures, to study it, count, do all the counts and everything on it because I just assumed it was made the way we make them nowadays, but getting home and looking at the pictures, there's some really different ways this is done than making that trip all the way back to Philadelphia to study it.

There's another type that's late Pueblo period. They're mostly found in the Kayenta area, but they're woven of three different styles of basketry in one, and the way it's constructed, it's mind-boggling. But how many of you know what a platoon is, like in the Old West saloons?

They're globular with that flared top. This is the exact same shape of the basket. It's globular with a small opening and like a 3- to 4-inch wide collar at the top of it.

Now we're talking maybe 300 years to 400 years before European contact and Pueblo people were weaving that shape. I'm like, okay, what were they used for? How were they used?

But that's the second one I'm looking at. There's another one which we thought was Pueblo period but comes back earlier. Radiocarbon date comes back earlier.

The only way I can term it is not a true basket but a basket bag. When you pull the top, it expands out, and when you pull the yucca cord, it closes back in. But they found that bag about the size of a basketball with 2 pounds of red corn.

Some of those really intrigued me and I sit there and try to figure out how they were constructed just off of the pictures. Some of them I can't empty out the content so I only get exterior photos. But other museums, I might put it out there and other museums say, oh, we have something similar and they'll send me a picture that says that's what I'm looking for and I'll travel up there and look at their baskets to see the insides and stuff and put two and two together.

It's just a lot of that working with the materials and figuring out how they were doing things and just also thinking of where their intelligent level was at to construct some of these baskets and what they were doing.

[Ranger Kelli] And that's why I was like, you're just not a fiber artist. You are a Native researcher. And when I say Native researcher, it's interesting because I think of traditional ecological knowledge versus Western science.

And the stuff that you were telling me today, you actually go to the museums, put on white gloves, and do your own investigation of these baskets. And having these scientists ask you for help, and that's amazing to know that basically I think that it is important to replicate and understand and learn how these baskets are made. And one story that kind of really, I think, touched with me was that you're basically talking about different paints from different plants that actually has been grown around the region, but these scientists can't identify what plant this is to make that paint color.

And you said sunflower. And I was like, this is really cool to know that you can identify these plants around the region to know what specific plant is making that paint. And I don't think you're just a Native researcher, but also, Chris, another work that I think is also very important to talk about is you are on a board with the Bears Ears Partnership.

And if you all don't know, Bears Ears is actually a location, it's a national monument that is in Utah, and it is an amazing cultural and natural resource site that also works with tribes out here in the Southwest. And can you tell a little bit more about that partnership and what that is?

[Chris Lewis] Yeah, I am a board member. I sit on the board of directors. We work a lot with indigenous communities that have ties to the Bears Ears.

When I first was accepted onto the board of directors, I was the first Pueblo representative to sit on the board of directors. So that gave Pueblos a voice over our ancestral sites, our shrines, our cultural areas in the Bears Ears. We do a lot of work.

The biggest one was the litigation over the national monument. I don't know if you guys knew, in Obama's, when he was president, he made that a national monument. And then when Trump went in, he shrunk it down.

Then he went back to almost the size it was designated as, but there was litigation with the state of Utah over some of that, which we played a large part of with other groups to fight them against it, which I'm happy to say that Utah dropped their lawsuit on that and everything's staying. Currently right now, there's some stuff going on with the lands between. Those are not within the designated monument, but the state of Utah has thousands, hundreds of thousands of sites all over the state of Utah that are ancestral Puebloan.

Then you have also, and I believe they're trying to change the name, but there's the Diné, the Navajo Pueblitas, the fortified homesteads, and a lot of other things, also youth sites and things like that. And then we have the ambassador program, the Visit with Respect, teaching visitors how to respectfully visit those areas, meet and greet. Then we have an education center where we educate visitors that come in about not only the Bears Ears and the sites around, but also the indigenous communities around the area that have associations with Bears Ears.

And the only way we do a lot of this stuff is through the donations from the small community of the Bears Ears Partnership.

[Ranger Kelli] Really amazing to hear you not only protecting and preserving ancestral tools that you are trying to revitalize, and also you're trying to create a voice for not only Zuni, but like you said, Pueblos, nations across the Southwest to protect ancestral sites. And that is part of Bears Ears National Monument. And I think you did say that you want to also educate visitors who are visiting these locations to kind of recreate respectfully, but also leave no trace.

I just want to hear from your perspective of why that's important to educate that.

[Chris Lewis] Not only ancestral cultural sites and areas, but overall, even your front yard, back yard. If you throw things on the ground or dump things that can be hazardous, it won't affect you right away, but maybe the next generation of your family, the accumulation on the earth, that a lot of the plastics, things like that, don't degrade right away. I was surprised, even when you're hiking, you think peeling a tangerine, a cutie, and throwing it under a tree, that you're helping the environment to continue by composting, but an orange will not decay for 100 years.

So that orange will just stay on the surface, could harm the wildlife that may try to eat it, the oils and chemicals that oranges naturally produce. So even minor things like that, like cans stay on the surface a long time, rusting and things like that. So it's always in the back of my mind.

If you go somewhere, what you carry in, carry out. Try not to change the environment except for your footsteps. A lot of these things can affect plants, and also in myself, it's really unsightly to come across someone else's garbage that I eventually pick up and carry out, but it's always like completely remote areas coming and finding huge dump sites, everyday garbage.

[Ranger Kelli] It's interesting because I think that people don't realize how much not staying on the trail can damage the environment. It can reduce the vegetation. Also the native plants that you are trying to study to keep those plants going for understanding your history as a pebble.

So I'm just going to ask one more question. What do you want the audience to take away from what we just talked about? What is one thing you want the audience to take away?

[Chris Lewis] It would be that indigenous-made crafts, especially basketry and stuff, the continuality of it goes back thousands of years for us Pueblo people to know that the baskets carry the life of the plant, carry the life of the maker, because when I'm working, the sweat, I guess you could say the sweat, the skin cells, and sometimes my blood ends up in a basket, so my life is going into that basket. Any basket maker, their life is going into that. And then that the name in our language for a basket and a human are the same, representing life.

Just the appreciation of it, because that's one of the main arts that is the hardest to do, and not many people are doing them anymore, are the baskets. So just knowing that all that work, hours, days, months to create one basket, the appreciation of it.

[Ranger Kelli] Thank you so much. I know we had a very short conversation. I'm very sad.

And if you do have any questions, Chris is going to be here. Come up here directly to him. And have a great evening.

[Ranger Jonah] Grand Canyon Speaks is a program hosted by Grand Canyon National Park and the Grand Canyon Conservancy. A special thanks to Aaron White for the theme music. This recording reflects the personal lived experiences of tribal members and do not encompass the views of their tribal nation or that of the National Park.

To learn more about Grand Canyon First Voices, visit www.nps.gov/GRCA. Here at Grand Canyon National Park, we are on the ancestral homelands of the 11 associated tribes of the Grand Canyon. These being the Havasupai Tribe, the Hualapai Tribe, the Navajo Nation, the Hopi Tribe, the Pueblo of Zuni, the Yavapai Apache Nation, the Kaibab Band of Paiute Indians, the Las Vegas Paiute Tribe, the Moapa Band of Paiutes, the Paiute Indian Tribe of Utah, and the San Juan Southern Paiute Tribe.

In this episode, ranger Kelli talks with Ed Kabotie who is a Hopi and Tewa musician, painter and advocate for his Indigenous communities. Not only does Ed address many issues that our Indigenous people face today, but he also performs a couple of his songs that carry the theme of empowerment.

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TRANSCRIPT:

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Ed Kabotie Speaks Transcript

Ed Kabotie: In my culture, I feel like every day begins with land acknowledgement, you know. I mean, you're encouraged to rise up every day when the sun comes up to greet the sun. You know, that's, to me, that's land acknowledgement, you know.

Ed Kabotie: We pray for the world, we pray for the people in it, our loved ones, just like we all do.

Lakin: Hello, everyone. Welcome back to Grand Canyon Speaks. This is Lakin.

Meranden: And this is Meranden..

Lakin: In this episode, Ranger Kelli talked with Ed Kabotie, who is a Hopi and Tewa musician, painter, and advocate for his Indigenous communities.

Meranden: Not only does Ed address many issues that our Indigenous people face today, but he also performs a couple of his songs that carry a theme of empowerment.

Lakin: Take a listen to Ed's journey, and we hope you enjoy this episode.

Ranger Kelli: I would like to have Ed Kabotie introduce himself. Let's give a round of applause for Ed.

Ed Kabotie: [Speaks Hopi]

Ed Kabotie: So, first of all, my name is, Flutesong is my Hopi name, and I'm from the Badger Clan and from the village of Shongopovi, Second Mesa in Hopi, but hang on.

Ed Kabotie: [Speaks Tewa]

Ed KabotieL My name is also Cloud Mountain from my mother's side, and on the Tewa side, I'm from the village of Singing Water in northern New Mexico, and still from the Badger Clan. So, I'm both from the Tewa people and Hopi nation, and as Kelli had mentioned, I've had the blessing of hanging out here at Desert View quite a bit.

Ed Kabotie: My grandfather did the murals at the [Desert View] Watchtower on the second floor of the Watchtower back in 1932. So, ever since I was a kid, you know, coming to this area has been special for me in my relationship with my grandfather, who was a very strong mentor to me. He was born in 1900.

Ed Kabotie: His father was sent to prison in 1906 for refusing him to sending him to Carlisle Indian School, and he was only six years old at the time, you know, but I'm grateful that my great-grandfather made that stance, even though he was put in prison for it. But my grandfather leads a very colorful life, you know, leading up to the Watchtower paintings, obviously, and he passed away when I was 16 years old. So, he was a very important role model for me, and it's really a blessing to me anytime I come out, so, it's a blessing to be here.

Ranger Kelli: Thank you, Ed. And like Ed said, Grand Canyon is actually ancestral homelands for 11 traditionally associated tribes here, and the 11 tribes are the Navajo Nation, Hopi Nation, Zuni Pueblo, and as well as the Havasupai, Hualapai, Yavapai-Apache Nation, Las Vegas Band of Paiute, Moapa Band of Paiute, San Juan [Southern] Band of Paiute, and as well as Kaibab Band of Paiute. So, there's a lot, and Shivwits Paiute.

Ranger Kelli: Sorry, I'm just trying to remember all 11. So, these traditionally associated tribes really have, this place is a very close connection of Grand Canyon. It's a place that is still home to the tribal members.

Ranger Kelli: And with Hopi, and this is just a picture that was passed around of Ed's grandfather, Fred Kabotie, that did the murals here at the Watchtower in 1932 when this was built. So, really great. You can kind of see a lot of the culture representation that is built here in the tower.

Ranger Kelli: And then for Ed, I know you said that your grandfather is your role model, and you're an actual artist here. And Ed Kabotie is actually here for two more days as part of our cultural demonstration program. And he's just not an artist, but he's a musician as well.

Ranger Kelli: So, he's just all around an amazing person, you know, that has been really expressing his story through his artwork. And I want to, like, you know, ask you, when did you start painting and doing your artwork?

Ed Kabotie: Yeah, this is a cool question, you know, because I feel like in Native communities, when people ask me, when did you start playing music? When did you start doing art? I always say, you know, really where I'm from, everybody is an artist, and everybody is a musician.

Ed Kabotie: Because at the time you're a child, you know, I mean, I have a little grandson that I see every now and then in Albuquerque, New Mexico. Whenever I see that little dude, you know what I mean, first thing I'm going to do is what most grandparents do in our culture. They'll sit him on your lap, you start singing to him, you know, and you start making his arm movements, you know, of what he would do, you know, if he were dancing.

Ed Kabotie: And so, I think I would have to say the same thing about art, because we don't think about it this way, but you might say that we're all raised in the arts, you know, as Puebloan people, you know, we are symbols, the symbols that we interact with, the symbols that we communicate to the universe with, to communicate with one another with, the songs that we sing, you know, it's not necessarily looked at as art, but rather as the way that we interact with and worship the universe, you know, worship the creator.

Ed Kabotie: I do have a remembrance when I was four years old, and my father put this in a poem called The Buffalo Dancer, because when I was a kid, like most Pueblo kids, you know, I mean, our first love is the drum, you know, and we just love jamming out, and we, I mean, we just, to me when I was a kid, everything was a buffalo dance, you know, and so I had a little Linus blanket, and I'd tie horns on the ends of it, tie little knots, and I'd throw it on, and that'd be my buffalo dance, you know, I'd take the knots out, and I'd stretch it out, that made my eagle dance, you know, my wings, you know, and my father wrote down a poem, he called it The Buffalo Dancer, and at the beginning of the poem, he quoted me when I was four years old, I remember this, this is a very early memory, I said, "this little boy is an artist, and he's four years old, and this is for his dad," I was just painting something on, I think, a paper sack, but anyway.

Ranger Kelli: Wow, and I know a lot of your artwork, and you're a musician, your songs, you kind of really focus a lot on Native American history, and I found this article from Arizona PBS of ASU, which was really amazing article that ASU wrote about Ed Kabotie, and it said that your songs that you create are designed to fill in some of the blanks that are missing from the version of history that many Americans grew up hearing, and your song that really just kind of resonate with what the article said, was a song of land acknowledgement, and I think that, you know, hearing that song, and just knowing what that song's about, why is it important for people to kind of learn about why land acknowledgement is important to hear and to talk about?

Ed Kabotie: That's cool, I think that's a really cool question, because you're kind of opening a can of worms. Let me just say, you know, like there's this popular thing, you know, in our country right now of land acknowledgements, you know, I have mixed feelings about it, in all honesty, you know, in my culture, I feel like every day begins with land acknowledgement, you know, I mean, you're encouraged to rise up every day, when the sun comes up, to greet the sun, you know, that's, to me, that's land acknowledgement, you know, we pray for the world, we pray for the people in it, our loved ones, just like we all do, you know, but to me, that's land acknowledgement.

Ed Kabotie: What I think people should be doing, when they say they're doing land acknowledgement, is not only recognize that we're on, we're all brothers and sisters in this world, that we're really living in kind of a borrowed space, I don't think borrow is the right word, you know, but this is the land of the creator, you know, I mean, it's his land, it doesn't really belong to us, we can act like it does, but you know, even the world itself will teach us that, you know, it doesn't belong to us, you know, what I think is missing in popular land acknowledgement is a blood acknowledgement, you know, I mean, yes, you're on the lands that were previously inhabited by Supai Nation, by Navajo Nation, by Hopi Nation, you know, other parts of the country, you know, you're acknowledging different tribes that were there before, but I'm like, so why do we just call it land acknowledgement?

Ed Kabotie: Why don't we acknowledge how we acquired these lands, you know, the blood that was shed to acquire these lands? You know, to me, that's really what needs to be said, so maybe what Kelli's talking about is a specific song, and maybe I can play that for you, so you kind of understand the context of the question as well. So just asking for the Creator's help, and yeah, I'm gonna play this tune called Land Acknowledgement, which is really a reaction to land acknowledgements.

Ed Kabotie: What does it mean to acknowledge a land that's been raped and plundered by the greed of man? What do you mean when you speak our name while still you occupy the lives that your fathers claim?

Ed Kabotie: Why remind us that your cities and towns are built on places we call hallowed ground? Remember the people, acknowledge the land, acknowledge the blood that stains our hearts and hands. Fifty million women, children, and men were sacrificed to buy you your religious freedom, destroy our lives, strip away our pride, send us out of sight, out of mind to die, and now they're butchering the lands of our reservations to build their instruments of devastation.

Ed Kabotie: Remember the people, acknowledge the land, acknowledge the blood that stains our hearts and hands. Your words never seem to me to comprehend the atrocity. Words will never be a way to heal the guilt of this country, but this land was never yours or mine.

Ed Kabotie: We've been gifted to live in this space and time. The one who made all things can bring both endings as well as new beginnings. Rend your heart, see through the veil of lies, relearn to live within the circle of life and then remember the people.

Ed Kabotie: Acknowledge the land, acknowledge the blood that stains our hearts and hands. Your American dream has never been what it seemed. Sacrilegious, blasphemous, disastrous destiny.

Ed Kabotie: A little bit of a twist on land acknowledgement.

Ranger Kelli: I don't want us to start so heavy, so I apologize, but because we're just kind of tying into like, you know, Grand Canyon National Park, we're really including in our park goals of more Indigenous connections and part of this Indigenous connections is starting to acknowledge the tribal nations who have lived here before it was a National Park and a lot of Ed's music and artwork really focused on a lot of social and environmental justice and his artwork.

Ranger Kelli: I see a lot of your work really just tying into water, you know, too. So, and I think that, you know, here at Desert View at Grand Canyon, a lot of our park ranger programs, we really focus on the western science of how Grand Canyon was formed and one of the elements that we see here at Desert View is focusing on this very powerful river called the Colorado River and we only know the western science of how Grand Canyon was formed because of that river, too, to build, obviously, the canyon, but people don't really realize, too, about the cultural ties and the significance of this water and a lot of your artwork and his grandfather's artwork. If y'all have a chance, if you're here tomorrow, definitely come out to the watchtower and that second floor where his grandfather has this amazing mural and you can definitely know that is a Colorado River and your artwork has a lot of the water representation, too, and I just want to kind of acknowledge that you really focus on water is life.

Ed Kabotie: Yeah.

Ranger Kelli: And you educate about that to the public across the Colorado Plateau. Can you talk a little bit more about what water is life to our visitors here?

Ed Kabotie: Yeah, there's so much water imagery in ceremonial clothing, you know, there's so much water imagery in our songs, you know, it's just a constant thing. So, it's in some ways water is life, is a very literal thing obviously for people who live in this desert region.

Ed Kabotie: Picture this, that in Hopi, you know, just to the east, directly east of us, that's the oldest continuously inhabited communities in North America. Walpi, Songopavi, Ojaivi, and Acoma Pueblo in New Mexico all were established about a thousand years ago, you know, we're not the typical United States come and pull the rug out from under us type of people, we're not, you know, we've never been relocated, we're at the same places we were at time of contact in 1539 and we're in the same place as we were 500 years before that, you know.

Ed Kabotie: What's remarkable about that is if you ever go to Hopi, because the scientist has told us that, you know, Utah and Colorado, like Mesa Verde area and Bears Ears area, that emptied out from Pueblo in occupation around 1300 and they say it's because of a drought and I say this, well if it was, and then they went south, right, and began settling along the Rio Grande, which makes sense if it's a drought, but what doesn't make sense is the boost of the population in Hopi, like if you're leaving a drought, you don't go to Hopi, you know, there's no running rivers there, you know.

Ed Kabotie: What's remarkable about that 1,000 year occupation there in Hopi is it's been totally 100 percent dependent upon rain for our survival. It's dry farming out there, you know, that's how we've been farming for the last 1,000 years, it's dry farming techniques, you know, without water, you know, so yeah.

Ranger Kelli: And I know that like, you know, there's one picture that really speaks a lot and I think that kind of resonates with what you were saying about farming too because a lot of your artwork and your painting, you have this brown river connecting with this river here and people don't really understand why these two rivers connect, mean a lot for a lot of the tribes here in the southwest and just kind of give you a little bit of history too about the Colorado River.

Ranger Kelli: This river goes over 1,000 miles and supposed to come out of the Baja California, but now we have dams that are kind of in place along this whole river and I do have a visual of a map of the Colorado River and tribes that surround that river in their traditional homelands, but these tribes on this map don't live all surrounding the Colorado River anymore, so these tribes are now in reserve areas, what are called now reservations, and this water here, none of the tribes actually have rights to it, but we can use tributaries that feed into the river that we have rights for it now, which amazing part of this history that just happened was the Hualapai Nation just started getting some rights to use a lot of that water now, so it's just, you know, this is today news this year, so this is just like a long time of these systemic issues that Ed Kabotie really puts in his music, but also creates events that is around what the Colorado rights are to Native communities, and one of these events that you do year-round is Rumble on the Mountain, and I know this past year you did one and I went to that, it was a really amazing and powerful event, oh my gosh, six hour show, yeah, all day, can you explain what this event that you do, you know, hosts every year, and you have different themes every year, and I would like for you to just kind of talk about that.

Ed Kabotie: So Rumble on the Mountain started about 10 years ago, it's a show that was named after an earthquake that took place in Flagstaff after a local ski resort opened with, became the only or the first ski resort in the world to use 100% reclaimed sewer water to create artificial snow, in direct opposition, in opposition to all of the outcry of every single tribe listed on that piece of paper right there, you know, the city of Flagstaff turned up their nose at us and sold reclaimed sewer water to the to the Snowbowl, and so that created the impetus for this show.

Ed Kabotie: I mean there's a lot of backstory, but I'll kind of spare you guys that, but every year what we do is we focus on an issue, the first year was focused on that ski resort issue, you know, but we focused on the Colorado River, we focused on this past year, we focused on the only operating uranium mine in the state of Arizona, on Navajo Nation there's 500 to 1,000 open pit uranium mines left over from the Cold War, the mining companies that came in and extracted the ore didn't take any responsibility to clean it up, neither the government that bought the ore take responsibility to clean that up, they leave that to the tribes, so consequently we've got what 500 to 1,000 open pit uranium mines on Navajo Nation today, you know, poisoning their water systems, etc., so because of their experience all of the tribes in Arizona have said no way do we allow uranium mining on our reservations, but that has not stopped Energy Fuels Company from coming in and working with the Forest Service to acquire lands seven miles south of us, and so the Grand Canyon Mine, aka Pinon Plain Mine, is the only operating uranium mine in the state of Arizona today, and it sits on top of the aquifer of the Havasupai Nation.

Ed Kabotie: The Havasupai Nation were kicked out of the Grand Canyon in 1918 so that we could have a National Park in 1919, and today we're poisoning their water systems, you know, where we relocated them with the only operating uranium mine, so this is a big concern and we hope to have another set of shows like Kelli was talking about to raise awareness, because people don't know this, you know, they don't know that out in Hopi land that our water systems are riddled with arsenic, you know, they don't recognize that on Hopi and Navajo that many of our people still don't have running water or electricity.

Ed Kabotie: National spotlight during the pandemic was kind of showcased the disparity that we live in in health care, but that also involves the land, it's not only the people, it's not only the treatment of the people in northern Arizona, it's also the land that has suffered. People come from all over the world to visit Grand Canyon National Park, and unfortunately, but I'm very grateful for you guys, because unfortunately so many people leave just as ignorant about the conditions of the tribes, who we are, our experiences as they were when they came, so this is really a blessing to me, you know, to be able to share some of this with you.

Ranger Kelli: Thank you, and you said Snowbowl, and that is, this is just an amazing place at Desert View to kind of see a really beautiful mountain south of us. People always ask, what is this mountain? And that is also a sacred mountain for a lot of the tribes here in Arizona, and part of that mountain and the Grand Canyon, and seeing these very sacred places here at Grand Canyon, or not Grand Canyon, around the region, as we're, as visitors are driving through it, and not knowing these types of history from the tribes, and the challenges that we have lived, and the Park Service is really wanting to start working with tribal people today to start learning about the management of this land before it became a National Park, and with this goal that we're creating here in the Park Service is also putting people, actually not putting people, but starting to open the doors and having the tribes now have, are wanting to have access back to their home again, and I think this is a really amazing goal that Grand Canyon National Park is doing, and how do you feel about how this direction of the Park Service is going?

Ranger Kelli: Like, you know, knowing that the Havasupai name has, or the Havasupai, I keep saying Havasupai Gardens, but it used to be called Indian Gardens down on the Bright Angel Trail, but just had the name changing of that location on the Bright Angel Trail to Havasupai Garden to really honor the tribe, and this happened on May 4th [2023] last year, so these are like historical events that are just very new to the Park Service and to the history of our people, so how do you feel about this? All of these amazing things are happening now moving forward, and I, yeah.

Ed Kabotie: Skeptical. Yeah, I honestly, I mean, that is probably my first reaction is like, okay, what's going on here, you know, but in my conversations with Grand Canyon Park Superintendent, you know, he's been here for a little while, Ed Keable, and when he first came, a lot of the development here at Desert View kind of amped up, and they said they want to, you know, they want to focus on indigenous interaction here, and my reaction to that would, well, that's cool, right? You got the least traveled spot in the entire park, and you're going to stick us on this little corner of it, yeah? It sounds like a reservation to me, you know what I mean?

Ed Kabotie: And I'm really grateful that I recently, Ed Keable and I did some work at the Grand Canyon river guides training seminar, and he used, he quoted me in his speech, and he remembered that statement, and that makes me hopeful, you know, because he said, you know, I understand that sentiment, and that, you know, the objective is that this will be a ripple, and I feel like Grand Canyon National Park is proving that to some degree, you know?

Ed Kabotie: It worries me, and I'm still skeptical. I worry when we're moving too fast, you know? I worry that we're not acknowledging, I'm worried that we're not acknowledging what the canyon is to our people.

Ed Kabotie: I'm worried that we haven't defined what our etiquette should be in this landscape, but at the same time, I am encouraged by initiatives that do have some feet on them, you know?

Ranger Kelli: Yeah, it's, you know, it's hard to think about historical trauma that has been still embedded with tribal members today, and with our families, and they kind of teach us survival tools to live in this, I would say, colonial world, you know, that we have never, our grandparents have had a hard time living through, and I feel like what you said just a while ago really resonates in, like, how do we do this in a way of bringing multiple perspectives, multiple stories, multiple safest ways where every community member does feel like this is a safe place to now have that relationship and connection back in this place, and when you were singing, you know, a while ago, the water song in your language, I almost cried because the canyon needs to hear more of those songs.

Ranger Kelli: The canyon just needs to hear the voice of the tribal members. The canyon just misses it, and it also, it's a reconnection for us as tribal members here, and that's a very powerful message, and right now, we are almost, we have, like, about 15 minutes before sunset or 10 minutes before sunset. I'd just like to ask you one more question before we kind of open it up to the audience if they want to ask a question, but what would you like the people to take away from what we just talked about in our moment together?

Ed Kabotie: Yeah, I love that question because, you know, what I would really love to emphasize to people here is that, is the plight of the people and lands of the Colorado Plateau. I appreciate that Kelli mentions the song in my language, you know, Kelli's Dine, you know, I'm Tewa/Hopi. We're not the same.

Ed Kabotie: We don't have the same culture. We don't have the same beliefs. There's many tribes here.

Ed Kabotie: When you go to Europe, you recognize that Spain is not Germany, and Germany is not Poland, you know, and Poland is not, you know, Italy, but for some reason, when you come to America, we're all Native American, you know, and somebody finds out you're Native American, they say, hey, you know this guy in New Hampshire, you know, you know, he's an Indian, you know what I mean? I'm not picking on you. Coincidence, but, you know, it's like we're many nations, you know, I would like people to recognize that when they come to the canyon, you know, recognize the great diversity here, but also recognize that each one of those tribes has their own story and their own experience of heavy injustice, especially here in Grand Canyon region.

Ed Kabotie: I don't know of any other place that the tribes are exploited the way that they are here, you know, the threats to the Havasupai with Grand Canyon mine, the situation with Hopi with arsenic in our contaminated water systems. That's if you have running water in Hopi, you know, the Navajo with uranium contamination on their reservation and the water systems there. The fact that today, right, we have Grand Canyon Mine and we have a mining company that says they're from Canada, and they want to take uranium from the Supai here at Grand Canyon, essentially one reservation, take it from the bottom of Navajo Nation to the top of Navajo Nation to the already impacted communities of Navajo, take it on up to yet another reservation in Utah to the only existing uranium mill in the entire United States of America. Where is that located?

Ed Kabotie: Right next to the Ute, Mountain Ute Reservation, only threatening their water systems. And it's outrageous. And I think if the public eye could see it, they would recognize that it's outrageous, you know.

Ed Kabotie: We've received national attention to our national conscience about one Standing Rock, but I would say there's 500 'Standing Rocks' that we still haven't heard about, you know, and this really is one of them, you know, northern Arizona. So I would say that's what I would want people that come here to know and to hear and to send us a prayer. We're sending prayers for you all the time.

Ed Kabotie: I mean, really, literally, and hopefully that's what we do. You know, we pray for the whole world. We pray for all of your families and the goodness and the balance of all life, and we would just ask, you know, that you would also do the same.

Ed Kabotie: Yeah, think of us, pray for us. Cool.

Ranger Kelli: Thank you, Ed. Oh my gosh, I'm like, ah, I'm just gonna have to applaud. Ed Kabody is a very inspiring person to me because as a being a Native woman, you're a speaker for all Native people across, you know, and this, we call it, I call it Turtle Island, you know, and I feel like you really help bring us awareness, but also awareness through music that speaks for itself when you sing it, you know, you can feel that connection, you can feel your emotion in how you sing it, and I just want to ask you one more time, do you want to play us one more song?

Ed Kabotie: Yeah.

Ranger Kelli: Before we enjoy sunset? .

Ed Kabotie: Yeah, it's happening. I'm gonna play you a song from a Native American band who was on Motown Records in 1970 and 71, 72. I venture to say most of you have never heard of them, but it's a band called XIT, and I love the sentiment of this song.

Ed Kabotie: Our people have survived, and our eyes flow with memories. The reservation, it is our home, and for now we're gonna let it be. But the battle, it is not over.

Ed Kabotie: Yes, our struggle has begun. A new hope, it has been born, and our sunny day will come. [Chorus] Look up in the skies, as the wind whispers in the trees, atop a floating cloud that echoes to be free.

Ed Kabotie: In time we'll get back the life that they took away, and their land of make-believe will be ours again someday. [Chorus] Thank you, thank you so much. Ranger Kelli: Right now, sunset's happening, so I just want you all to, you know, get a moment to enjoy sunset, and have a good evening.

Ranger Jonah: Grand Canyon Speaks is a program hosted by Grand Canyon National Park and the Grand Canyon Conservancy. A special thanks to Aaron White for the theme music. This recording reflects the personal lived experiences of tribal members and does not encompass the views of their tribal nation or that of the National Park.

To learn more about Grand Canyon First Voices visit www.nps.gov/grca.

Here at Grand Canyon National Park, we are on the ancestral homelands of the 11 associated tribes of the Grand Canyon. These being the Havasupai tribe, the Hualapai tribe, the Navajo Nation, the Hopi tribe, the Pueblo of Zuni, the Yavapai Apache Nation, the Kaibab Band of Paiute Indians, the Las Vegas Paiute tribe, the Moapa Band of Paiutes, the Paiute Indian tribe of Utah, and the San Juan Southern Paiute tribe.

In this episode, Davis Coonsis spoke about the different artforms he works on from silversmithing to carving to carpentry! As he displayed some of his artwork, he was able to explain what each piece meant to himself in his Zuni culture.

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TRANSCRIPT:

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Davis Coonsis Speaks

[Davis Coonsis] My father was a jeweler, so I always had the art. And then my sister, she would use ceramics and paint them. So that's how I was introduced into art. So art was always around me. To me, it just kind of came naturally.

[Meranden] Hello everyone, welcome to Grand Canyon Speaks. This is Meranden.

[Ranger Grace] And this is Ranger Grace.

[Meranden] We are very excited to release this episode that features Davis Coonsis. He is a Zuni artist whose work consists of silversmithing, wood carving, stone carving, pottery, and carpentry.

[Ranger Grace] He was able to speak with Ranger Lizzie about how he has diversified his artistry, how he became a demonstrator at Desert View, and explains the significance of some of his pieces he displayed during his interview.

[Meranden] Thank you for tuning in to today's episode. We hope you have been able to explore the different episodes of Season 2.

[Ranger Grace] And here is Davis Coonsis.

[Davis Coonsis] My name is Davis Coonsis. I'm from Zuni, New Mexico. We come from, we're from Zuni.

We're Pueblo people. And this is one of, the Grand Canyon is part of our ancestral lands. But I'm a carver, I'm a wood carver.

And I also do jewelry, silversmithing, and stone carving also. And I also do carpentry, like building houses and stuff.

[Ranger Lizzie] Awesome. Davis, I thought I would just open up this program and kind of ask you, what is your connection with the Grand Canyon?

[Davis Coonsis] Our origin stories come from the Grand Canyon. It is our legend and, well, it's our story that is like, you know how the Christians have their Adam and Eve story. Well, this is where, almost like our origin story.

This is where our people came out from the Grand Canyon somewhere. And that's why there's a strong connection with, you know, anybody if you're like from Zuni or just Native Americans, because this is where our birthplace of our people was.

[Ranger Lizzie] Thanks for sharing. Can you tell me a little bit about your relationship with the demonstrator program here? How did you hear about it?

What made you want to join or be a part of it?

[Davis Coonsis] First time I heard about it, I think, was through my girlfriend, Noreen. She's been coming here to the Grand Canyon for quite a while now, because she's a potter. And, yeah, she knows that program.

So when I met her, she introduced me to this program, and we both have been coming since. It's been like two years since I came over here. So I'm really gratified that, you know, I've been invited to this program.

You know, it gives us exposure, and then, you know, it shows the people, like, the connections that we have to the Grand Canyon.

[Ranger Lizzie] Totally. So you've been a part of our demonstrator program now for about, you said, this is your third year now?

[Davis Coonsis] About second year.

[Ranger Lizzie] Second year, okay. How long have you been an artist?

[Davis Coonsis] I've been an artist, I don't know, I guess, ten years. But then I've kind of been an artist, like, all my life. You know, as a child, you know, you try to draw stuff and do stuff.

It just doesn't come out. Like, you don't become, I guess, serious about it until, like, maybe, like, until after you've had, like, you've done your college and other things, and maybe those things didn't work out, so you go back to your art, and that's where you find most enjoyment, you know, in doing your art. It's like, you know, people call it work, but, you know, you gotta, it's not really work, it's just art.

You enjoy doing what you do, you know.

[Ranger Lizzie] Yeah, and looking back at, you were saying, kind of your childhood, and you were always creating, what did that look like, kind of creating in your childhood?

[Davis Coonsis] I guess I would draw pictures sometimes, like, late at night, I guess, when, you know, when you have your weekend as a child, you know. You stay up late at night, I mean, sometimes, I don't know why, me and my brother would sometimes, like, be drawing, like, cartoons, like Smurfs or whatever. I don't know, because we're waiting, I guess, for Saturday morning when they used to show cartoons and stuff like that.

But I guess it kind of all started there, you know, just drawing little pictures and things. And then later on, you know, in life, you know, you have your art classes, which they give to you in school. So, you know, do your drawings and stuff like that.

But I didn't go to your regular, you know, like, regular high school, because I went to, like, a Christian high school, and if I went to the regular Zuni high school, I would have been taught, like, they have the Native American arts. But since I went to a Christian high school, I didn't really, wasn't really introduced into the Native arts and stuff like that. Mostly just contemporary art, you know.

But then after, I mean, during high school, I was, my father was a jeweler, so I was, always had the art. And then my sister was, she would use ceramics and paint them. So that's how I was introduced into art.

So art was always around me. To me, I just kind of, I guess, came naturally. And then I would help my father do jewelry.

At first, I would just help him buff, but buff and stuff. And then later on came, like, to where I actually tried the silver, tried the welding the silver, soldering the silver. And then from then on, I just started, you know, liking doing, starting doing woodwork.

While I was doing carving at the same time, too, the stone carving. It's kind of like, I guess everything was just kind of, like, there. So I just kind of, like, dabbing into it.

So that's what I was doing. And then finally, I think I was told to make a bench for some, some cultural event that was happening in Zuni. So, my family, actually.

And so I had to make a small bench. And I think that's where everything started as far as the woodwork. I made a small bench, and then it was just a plain bench.

But then later on, I went to make bigger benches. So I just made one. And then, to me, it just looked plain.

So that's when I just started, like, putting paint on the designs and stuff. And then, and then later on, the carving of the flowers came, came. And then, you know, designing of these, like, the borders.

And that's how it just became. So I guess it's, like, just a progress. Kind of, like, seeing other people's work also.

Like, with the woodworks. See what they've done. And, oh, I can do something a little bit different.

And that's how it just all began. And then, so now that I've grown older, I do, now I do jewelry, too. Like, I do the soldering and everything, actually.

[Ranger Lizzie] So you kind of have a return to jewelry then? Because I know you said you were doing that a little bit with your father.

[Davis Coonsis] Yeah, because it was kind of hard for me when I was just helping my dad. I wasn't, I guess didn't have the patience to do the solder. Because, you know, you have to be a steady hand.

And I guess kind of, like, scared to do it the first time. But eventually I got it. And I'm still learning.

But, you know, I got the basics down.

[Ranger Lizzie] Yeah, so it seems like you have, you know, when you're introducing yourself, you're doing carving, you're doing jewelry, you're doing pottery. You're having so many different art forms. How do you balance all of these different creative outlets and carpentry as well?

[Davis Coonsis] I guess I don't really try to pick any one medium as a favorite. You know, I just try to do whatever I feel like at the moment. And then just let it flow.

And then once you kind of get tired of it, you go on to another thing. Or you try different mediums or things. But balance, I don't know if I really have balance.

Because, you know, I just try to find the time to do it. That's what I do.

[Ranger Lizzie] Yeah, it's hard to find the time.

[Davis Coonsis] Yeah.

[Ranger Lizzie] Kind of coming back to this piece, I know you talked a little bit about how you were inspired by your sister's pottery. And we talked about that earlier. Can you just talk a little bit about the designs here that we're seeing?

[Davis Coonsis] Well, I was telling them that I was always wanting to do pottery. But I couldn't, so there was nobody to teach me. But I started doing the woodwork and then got an idea.

I said, well, what if I just put the pottery designs onto here? So that's how it kind of just all began. Everybody liked it.

I showed it to my family, and they liked it. I said, yeah, okay, well, that's when everything started. And some of the designs I get, too, from just, like, nature.

I guess you look around, because you would think, where did our people, you know, our ancestors, you know, where did they get their ideas? And, you know, they didn't have anything like what we have in our modern days. So I would think they probably would have looked at the sky, you know, see the cloud formations, you know, how they have, like, little wisps and swirls and stuff.

And then just probably how they got their ideas, I would think. Because sometimes I would look up in the sky, I would see, like, a little design or just, like, repetitive design and stuff. Like these designs, they're almost like sometimes when I look up in the sky, you can see, like, these designs, just a single one like that.

So that's where sometimes I get my inspirations from. But, like, these, like some of this, I think this rosette design came from the Spaniards, because the Spaniards had a, they had, like, they came with wooden boxes, and, you know, had art on them, and they had, like, a rosette on it. So I think that's where this rosette came from, for the potters, from the Spaniards.

And then these other designs are, like, the deer designs that comes from, like, I guess the potters, you know, their husbands would go out hunting, so they, you know, wanted to, they were building pots, you know, and they were waiting, and they wanted their men to be successful in their hunt. So they would be waiting, and they would paint these deer, almost sort of like a little prayer onto the bow to make them successful in their hunt. So that's why they painted deer on these.

And some of these, like, these designs, like, you know, represent water. I know I didn't say, like, clouds, but, you know, clouds bring rain. So here, you know, in the southwest, that's what the people, you know, always wanted, like, water or rain, so they would paint these little water designs on their pots.

So, you know, like a little prayer, I guess, on the bow. And some of these are, like, this would be, like, a star. This is something they see in the night.

Sometimes, you know, they would paint those stars up on the pots. So, you know, back in the day, you know, the stars helped the people travel to see where they're going. So at night, you know, they have a star to follow to bring them back home safely to where they live.

And I usually put a little turquoise in the middle that gives it, like, the heart of the whole object.

[Ranger Lizzie] That's cool.

[Ranger Lizzie] Thank you so much for sharing. Yeah, I think it's just amazing to see just how, like, rich these designs are and how connected they are also, like, to your history and to your, also just, like, to nature. It's so cool.

I do have, so, you know, as we were saying before, you have so many different mediums that you work in, and I'd love to share with you guys so you have an opportunity to see all of the different art forms that Davis is doing. I thought that we could talk a little bit about them and then pass them around.

[Davis Coonsis] All right.

[Ranger Lizzie] So I know we have some of your wood carvings. Can you tell us a little bit kind of about, I'll show them here, and then I'll also pass them around?

[Davis Coonsis] That one's Butterfly Maidens. You know, we have a little story about the Butterfly Maiden and, you know, how they, kind of like one of the gods in Zuni. So that kind of represents that kind of blessing and summertime and abundance.

[Ranger Lizzie] Yeah, and I know we talked a little bit about this one, and this was something that you were really proud of. Can you tell me a little bit just about, like, the process of creating?

[Davis Coonsis] Yeah, that's my latest one. It's a credenza. I made this credenza.

It was actually a custom order for a friend of ours, and she wanted it done. So that took quite a while because I think she took, like, two years because I was doing it off and on. But I finally got it done this past.

[Visitor] About a month ago?

[Davis Coonsis] Yeah, about a month ago.

[Visitor] Oh, wow. That's gorgeous.

[Davis Coonsis] Yeah.

[Visitor] That's amazing.

[Davis Coonsis] But that's, like, some of them are, like, I'm still learning. Everything's new to me. Like, the coffee table I've been making, I've made several of them already, but that credenza is something new to me.

So I'm just, like, barely learning how to do all this stuff.

[Ranger Lizzie] Yeah, I think that's something I've seen. Like, talking to you and a theme that I've seen is, like, your ability to pick up new things and learn and constantly learning throughout your life. And I feel like that's just so inspiring to me.

[Davis Coonsis] Yeah, because I usually don't have, like, somebody to teach me. So I just usually go, like, to YouTube and, you know, watch it right there. Yeah, that's how I learn all my stuff, like the woodwork, the joinery, and other stuff.

That's how I learn it. But it's working out, you know.

[Ranger Lizzie] So we have some examples of kind of different artwork as well. We have this really cute frog. Can you tell us a little bit more about this one, too?

[Davis Coonsis] Oh, yeah, this frog. That was—I started making those frogs when I met Noreen. We started—she started doing—when I started doing pottery when I met her.

So that's one of the things I always wanted to make since I already made stone carvings of frogs. I said, oh, let me try one frog out of clay. So I made one of those.

And this foot made the tongue long because, you know, how they snap flies. It's more like a comical look.

[Ranger Lizzie] We also have some examples of your jewelry.

[Davis Coonsis] Yeah.

[Ranger Lizzie] Can you tell us a little bit about the stones that you see here?

[Davis Coonsis] The stones here are mostly turquoise. I mostly—these hearts was my dad's designs. He used to do inlay jewelry.

So that's kind of like the—this design is from my dad. So I just kind of like continued doing the heart designs. And this one, I mostly like—when I do jewelry, I mostly just like to do stones, like wrap them in silver and stone, you know, because sometimes I just like the stone itself, whereas this is like inlay with other different stones.

It takes a little bit longer for the multicolored jewelry, but sometimes I just like doing the stones themselves. There's one big wood carving project that I was doing in Zuni, New Mexico for ZYEP, the Zuni Youth Enrichment Program, which is kind of still—I'm still kind of working on it. It's not finished yet, but it's probably seven feet tall, a cottonwood tree stump, which they cut to build a ZYEP building, and they asked me to, you know, carve something out of it.

So that's what I've been doing. And what I did was I put in our six-directional animals on it. I carved them into it.

So our six-directional animals in Zuni starts out north with a mountain lion or cougar and then go on to the west. This would be the bear, the black bear. And then the south would be the badger, and then the east would be the white wolf.

And then on the sky at the top would be the eagle, and then the bottom would be the mole. And all the directions have all colors to them, too. So the north would be yellow, the west would be blue, south would be red, east is white, and the top is many colors, all different multicolors, and the bottom is black.

[Ranger Lizzie] Wow.

[Davis Coonsis] So yeah, that's all the colors. So that's what I tried to do in that big carving that I made, the big tree stump carving I made. I tried to put all the animals on there.

But I got some part of it done, but I just need to do some details, but that would be in a further project that I would be able to do. But it's an ongoing project. I just try to be limitless, whatever I do.

Try not to be constricted to one thing. Because art in general, no matter what it is, if you can do it or there's a possibility, then I will try it.

[Ranger Lizzie] Is there anything that you are looking to try or that you want to try in the future?

[Davis Coonsis] Maybe some glass. Glass or something like that. I've seen them how they do it, and it's awesome.

[Ranger Lizzie] Wow.

[Davis Coonsis] Different kinds of glass things. I've seen some people where they make glass into crystals or something, like in a cube, but then the cube has little other cubes inside, like the reflecting something. That's a different thing, but then they blow glass to make little stuff like that.

[Ranger Lizzie] Yeah.

[Davis Coonsis] I've seen that one, too, is different. I'd like to try one of them, something like that.

[Ranger Lizzie] Wow. Yeah. Well, I think it'll be really cool to see you continue to just try out new things, and everything that you try and everything that we've shown is just so beautiful, so I'm excited to see that continue.

Yeah. Follow your career.

[Ranger Lizzie] Yeah. Thank you. Yeah.

[Ranger Lizzie] I know that you just most recently picked up pottery, and we were able to show one of your pots, a picture of your pot. Can you tell me a little bit about what inspired you to pick up pottery? We were talking a little bit about that earlier.

[Davis Coonsis] I guess what inspired me was when I first saw my sister and the pottery she was making. I don't know, I guess the designs on them just kind of gravitated to me somehow, and I started liking it, and then I would go to old books and see the Zuni history and see the old potteries on them, and say, Wow, I like this one. I just started liking it, and I always wanted to take a class.

Like I was saying, in high school, everybody else went to Zuni. They had clay, a pottery class, but where I went, they didn't have a pottery class, so I was like, Oh, man. I missed all the art stuff that they used to do in Zuni.

But then after that, that's how I got into pottery, was just looking at the old pictures and just being inspired by it. Like I said, I didn't do pottery for a long time until I met Noreen, and that's when I learned to start making pottery, and I liked it. I liked what I did, and I still want to try some more stuff, and I make a big old pot.

That's one of my probably, I guess, I want to accomplish is a big pot.

[Ranger Lizzie] Yeah, and I know you and Noreen also make art together.

[Davis Coonsis] Yeah.

[Ranger Lizzie] Can you tell me a little bit more about that collaborative process?

[Davis Coonsis] Well, I seen she had done, I guess, collaborations with some other silversmiths, so when I met her, she had some of those jewelry stuff, and I looked at it and said, I can probably do that. So that's how we just kind of started out, you know, because she already had done it before, and then since I do jewelry, silver work, and that's just how we started. But I like doing it because, you know, it's really different.

Like the pottery designs are all, you know, cool and perfect, you know, it's all cool, and then you got the silver wrapped around, it's all shiny. I like doing that, yeah.

[Ranger Lizzie] Yeah, and definitely, you know, follow along with that journey because I'm excited to see what you make next. Yeah. Everything that you're doing, it's so cool to see so many processes at work at once.

[Davis Coonsis] Yeah.

[Ranger Lizzie] Yeah. Well, my final question for the night is just, what do you want people to take away from our conversation?

[Davis Coonsis] The Grand Canyon is very sacred to all the Native Americans and probably to everybody else, you know, because, you know, it is a special place, it's one of the wonders of the world, you know, and I guess respect it. But just hope everybody enjoys coming to the Grand Canyon. Enjoy your stay and be safe.

[Ranger Lizzie] Awesome. Well, we do have just a few minutes, I think, before sunset.

[Visitor] Yeah, I've noticed that a lot of your paintings are symmetrical.

[Davis Coonsis] Yeah.

[Visitor] Is symmetry a big part of art?

[Davis Coonsis] For me, it is. I guess I just want to have it always, like you said, symmetrical. So whatever I do, it's always got to be matched in the other way, in a certain way.

It's always got to be symmetrical. So I do measure out my designs, like how I'm going to put them. So that's how I keep it symmetrical.

[Visitor] So for your carving, do you, like on the table specifically, did you hand carve that? Do you have like a router tool?

[Davis Coonsis] Oh, no. So everything is done with just a knife and a chisel. Because if you use a router, you can't get these sharp points.

So I just use a knife and then a chisel. I just cut them out. And then same way with the flower over here, I just use a razor blade and I just cut them off, and then basically that's it.

And then with this part, I just chisel out all the stuff that you don't want.

[Visitor] Incredible.

[Davis Coonsis] Thank you.

[Visitor] Yes? I've noticed that a lot of your artworks have an elk with an arrow pointing to its mouth.

[Davis Coonsis] Oh, this one's a deer. It's a deer. And this is the heart line of it.

It's like the deer always has to have like a heart line or any animal. That's like their breath, their life of it. So that's why we call them the heart line.

So it's like the life of the animal. That's what it means.

[Ranger Lizzie] Oh, yes?

[Visitor] Did you study from other Zuni people or did you study from books?

[Davis Coonsis] I guess, yeah, I would read books on the Zuni people, and then I was beginning to learn more about it, and then everything just made more sense to me. And then the connection here, that's when I kind of got into checking out our other ancestral sites where our people used to live. We lived from here to there, like the Chaco Canyon, Mesa Verde.

Because all our people are connected with those places because that's part of our migrations where our people, from coming out from the Grand Canyon, some of our people went to Mesa Verde, and some of them went down to Chaco, and then they went as far as the Rio Grande River. That's where our people migrated, but along the way, people wanted to stay by the river, so that's how some of the tribes began, because our migrations. Some of them stayed.

They went down a little way, and some of them wanted to stay there because everything was perfect for them. But some people still traveled on. They felt that they didn't have found a middle place.

So we may have went around all the way, like down towards Las Cruces, and then we came all the way back up this way, then all the way towards Zuni, back to Zuni. That's where we're living right now.

[Ranger Lizzie] Well, thank you guys all so much for joining us. Davis, thank you so much for talking to us tonight.

[Davis Coonsis] Thank you. Thank you for coming out.

[Speaker 3] Grand Canyon Speaks is a program hosted by Grand Canyon National Park and the Grand Canyon Conservancy. A special thanks to Aaron White for the theme music. This recording reflects the personal, lived experiences of tribal members and do not encompass the views of their tribal nation or that of the national park.

To learn more about Grand Canyon First Voices, visit www.nps.gov/grca. Here at Grand Canyon National Park, we are on the ancestral homelands of the 11 associated tribes of the Grand Canyon. These being the Havasupai Tribe, the Hualapai Tribe, the Navajo Nation, the Hopi Tribe, the Pueblo of Zuni, the Yavapai Apache Nation, the Kaibab Band of Paiute Indians, the Las Vegas Paiute Tribe, the Moapa Band of Paiutes, the Paiute Indian Tribe of Utah, and the San Juan Southern Paiute Tribe.