Heart & Soul

[Lead In]

Martin Zerrudo: Have you ever wished you owned a time machine? To be able to fast forward into the future to see what God has in store? And when it comes to love, have you ever wondered when you would meet the one you’re going to get married to? Wouldn’t you want to know right now? 

Well, since we don’t have a time machine, Heart & Soul has the next best thing. What if you could write a love letter, to your future husband or wife?

Let’s have a Heart & Soul conversation.

[Show open]

[Heart & Soul Listeners]

Dear future wife, I’ll do the dishes AND the laundry. 

Dear future husband, our future home will stay between 68 and 72 degrees at all times.

Dear future wife, whoever you are, wherever you are, we will meet someday.

[Music Transition]

Martin: Back in August 2019, on Instagram at @incmedianews using #heartandsoulconversations we asked our audience to write a short letter, message, or comment to their future wife or husband. Something for their future partner to look back at and read to see just how long they’ve been praying and thinking about them. We had thousands of replies, ranging from those wondering “God, will I ever get married?” to “I trust God’s perfect timing.” We even had a couple of apologies too.

[Heart & Soul Listener]

Dear future wife. First of all I would like to apologize. I’m sorry it took so long for me to find you. Sorry I took a detour in my life. But the one thing I’m not sorry about is meeting you and falling in love with you every single day of my life. I may or may not know who you are, but I do know that you will always have a place in my heart and that I will love and cherish you regardless of any trials and hardships that come our way. May we both go on many adventures, and experience new things together. But more importantly, may we always continue to perform our duties and serve the Lord together as one…… 

[Music Transition]

Waiting for the right Christian man to come along is something many of our female listeners are doing right now. But even though they’re waiting, they’re not all in any rush.

[Heart & Soul Listener]

Dear future husband, hi! I hope you won’t appear soon, I haven’t graduated yet, I want to make Ma & Pa proud, my dream is to study for my masters and if possible for my doctorate, so take your time, there’s no rush, I know you’ll arrive in God’s perfect time.

Martin: And even if some are eager to find the right Christian man soon, their thoughts remain hopeful, and focused on an even greater purpose.

[Heart & Soul Listener]

To my future husband, I might be so lost right now, but I know I’ll find my way to you, through our God. Wherever you are, I hope you are staying safe and healthy! I can’t wait for the day when I’ll be able to finally meet you. I look forward to come home to you, everyday. For now, let us keep ourselves busy and occupied doing works for our Almighty Father.

Martin: Some of our male listeners even asked for a little patience, while they continued trusting in God for a wife.

[Heart & Soul Listener]

Dear Future Wife: I have a message for you… I know you’re out there. Somewhere. I know you’re waiting for me to find you. But please, I beg you. Be patient. Each day that passes brings me closer and closer to you. I’m working on myself. I want to be that knight in shining armor for you. So I’m working on being more active in the Church than I’ve ever been. I’m working on performing my duties to a higher level. Because it’s the armor of God I want to have on for you. I pray that you can wait for me. I pray for your happiness. I pray for you every day. I pray you’ll be the one that inspires me to be stronger. I pray that you continue to be active in the Church. Because I know that God won’t let us truly see each other until we are both ready.

I can’t promise you that we’ll have a perfect relationship but what I can promise is that I will love you every single day of my life. 

I know I’m not perfect and I have a couple of flaws, but I know you will accept me wholeheartedly. 

I have a lot of things to say to you, my future wife, but I prefer to say it to you personally, whoever you are.

You know our Almighty God knows best, and I trust in His timing. You’ll be worth the wait.

Martin: Joining us now is Bro. Donald Pinnock, a minister of the gospel in the Church Of Christ. Hello Brother Donald!

Bro. Donald: Hello, Bro. Martin! How are you?

Martin: I’m good. Thank you so much for joining us. Now when you were younger, did you ever imagine the kind of wife you would end up with? How did you meet your wife and what can you say after all these years, on the journey you’ve gone on together?

Bro. Donald: Hello to all of our listeners. And to answer your first question, yes, when I was younger, like many other people I was wondering where out there in the world was Mrs. Right for me. What would she look like? Where would we meet? And how could I be sure that she was the one? All of these and other questions entertained my thoughts especially when I started to enter adulthood.

Then, eventually in 1984, I met Lyda. I never imagined that she would become my wife a few years later. In fact, she was very active when it comes to her Church activities, most especially when it came to inviting people to Church activities, primarily when it comes to the worship services and Bible Studies. And she did exactly for me; she invited me to attend a worship service, which I did. I kept on going because it was interesting and at that time in my life I was really looking for answers. 

Eventually I underwent Bible Studies and all thanks be to God, I eventually become a baptized member of the Church. However, during all that time, when it came to myself and Lyda, we didn’t share any romantic feelings for one another. But, as the passage of time, or as we went through the passage of time, we got to know each other better, and we started to develop and appreciate a deeper understanding, until we reached the point when we realized that it was actually God, God was the one who was bringing us together. So because of this we got married in December, 1986. For many years before then, I had a mental image and assessment of whom I thought would be the wife for me. But instead, I eventually discovered that God knew who was best for me, just as what the Bible teaches in Proverbs 19:14:

Houses and wealth are inherited from parents, but a prudent wife is from the LORD.

[Proverbs 19:14 New International Version]

Bro. Donald: And when we say prudent, sensible, and understanding wife a suitable spouse. And that is exactly how I can describe Lyda. She understands me. She is very helpful. And of course she is caring and she’s also loving. So when it comes to single adults this is something that we should understand; that when it comes the soulmate that we may be looking for, when we’re looking for that significant other, we can’t base it just on physical looks. We can’t base it on how we think that person is. We have to really know them but at the same time we need to let the Lord our God act on our behalf. God is the one who will help one or another to find their significant other.

Martin: That’s such a wonderful story Brother Donald. And you know, in the process of you growing up, becoming a young adult, did you ever feel impatient like you wanted that special someone to come sooner? Were you someone who was like, oh, when when she comes, she comes and I’m not in any rush? 

Bro. Donald: Oh, in truth, as I entered into adulthood, of course, the search was on in ways it’s almost automatic. And I was looking for someone significant. Of course, I would meet certain individuals. But that spark, we can say that chemistry wasn’t quite there. So even though it may be fleeting, or momentarily, it wasn’t something that was going to last it didn’t fill that certain void within me. You know, the search went on. 

Martin: Now what advantage Brother Donald do members of the Church Of Christ have one trusting God in their singleness or single life and how does it help them feel less alone? Because for those single right now who might be listening, that’s why there’s so much urgency, is because they feel alone. They feel like they need to fill that void as soon as possible. And that’s why they need to find someone as soon as possible. 

Bro. Donald: Yes, well as being members of the Church Of Christ, what is very, very important, in fact, it’s absolutely critical is for one to place their hope and their trust, and we’re talking about wholehearted hope and trust in God. Because God makes known the reason why we should do so in Jeremiah 29:11:

For I know the plans I have for you,” declares the LORD, “plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future.

[Jeremiah 29:11 New International Version]

Bro. Donald: It’s quite evident, then that we should trust the Lord our God to bless us in every stage of our life, whether it be in our adolescence, our teenage years, or when we become adults, because God knows what is best for us at any given point. So some may be adults, and they’re enjoying being single, they’re not in a rush to get married, while others may be seeking earnestly that significant other in their life. When it comes to such individuals, they shouldn’t get anxious, nor envious of their peers, if they see them peeling off and getting romantically involved with someone while they remain playing the virtual waiting game. Because while waiting for the time to come, that they may meet, Mr. or Mrs. Right, and then enter into married life with the spouse that God blesses them with, or they should still continue to trust in God. And in fact, let’s have faith in what the Bible says in Psalms 37:4-5:

Seek your happiness in the LORD, and he will give you your heart’s desire. Give yourself to the Lord trusting Him and He will help you.

[Psalms 37:4-5 Today’s English Version]

Bro. Donald: Again, the key here, I believe Brother Martin, is for one to really place their hope and trust in God, because God knows what’s best, it’s very difficult than it could be a grave mistake to take matters in our own hands in the sense that we meet somebody and without even allowing time to build up a relationship or to get to know that individual, we just rush headlong into marriage. And sad to say it has happened, that there are those who we read about it oftentimes in the news. Were there those who believe that they had chemistry, but that chemistry was just in one aspect of their relationship. And after a short passage of time, they regret their mistakes and they separate ways. Well, this should not be because we also uphold what the Bible teaches about marriage. The Bible teaches that we are bound together by the laws of God, and that is a lifetime bind. So marriage in itself is a lifetime commitment. That is why we should trust God through our prayers, for Him to allow us to meet that individual eventually, that will be right for us. 

Martin: And when you mentioned rushing headlong into commitments, and lifelong promises, like marriage, it all the more points to the importance of timing. So what does the Scriptures say about God’s timing? 

Bro. Donald: Well, nobody can come close. God knows when a perfect time he strikes on our behalf. And the Bible even teaches that in I Peter 5:6-7: 

Therefore, humble yourselves under the mighty hand of God, that He may exalt you in due time casting all your care upon him, for he cares for you.

[I Peter 5:6-7 New King James Version]

Bro. Donald: Please notice, the Bible teaches that God is going to exalt us, He’s going to bless us, He is going to raise us up in due time or at the proper time. And because of this, it is stated that we should cast all our care upon Him, all of our concerns, including the hope of meeting that significant other through prayer, because the Lord our God, He’s going to manifest his care and love for us. 

Martin: So as we wait for God’s correct and perfect timing, we noticed that a lot of the comments from our listeners was that they’re okay with waiting for God’s time. They’re okay with knowing that he or she will come when the moment is right. And so why are so many members of the Church Of Christ happy to remain focused on improving and working on their duties and their spiritual lives first? 

Bro. Donald: Well, it’s because then we can read in 1 Corinthians 15:58, that when one is busy in serving God, it’s for their betterment. In fact, let’s read the citation. 

So then, my dear friends, stand firm and steady. keep busy always in your work for the Lord. Since you know that nothing you do in the Lord service is ever useless. 

[1 Corinthians 15:58 Today’s English Version]

Bro. Donald: Nothing we do in the Lord service is ever useless meaning to say everything we do in the Lord service is useful or beneficial. All the more we will receive the blessings of God in this life and in the life to come. So that’s why when it comes to many members of the Church, including the young adults, not just the adolescence, they remain fervent when it comes to their worship service, when it comes to helping others to find meaning to the life and existence by inviting them to Church activities, the members of the Church Of Christ, they busy themselves. And this is good in the sight of God. 

And not only that, if we consider it on a human level, instead of just sitting in a corner, and be wailing the fact that we haven’t met yet, our future spouse, if we consider what that will do to a person emotionally is it not more that they will become despondent, they’ll feel down? But at the same time, if one is busy, then we have less time to worry about our situation, we won’t be so so anxious, and again, we will not be envious of our close friends or our peers whom we see are getting married. 

One thing that we’d like to mention to all the young adults inside the Church is that the Lord our God has made us as when we say perfect in the sense that we are complete. We do not need another individual to make our life more significant or to make us complete. That individual may be supplemental, but when it comes to us personally, well the Lord our God has made us just as He wants us to be. That is why again, it is extremely important that we have a positive outlook on our life, we place our confidence in the Lord our God so that we can enjoy our journey through this word or through this life, knowing that through our compliance with the teachings of God, everything is going to go well for us, we can be confident of this, because this is also the assurance the Bible gives in 1 Samuel 12:14:

All will go well with you. If you honor the Lord your God, serve him, listen to him, and obey his commands. And if you and your king follow him,

[1 Samuel 12:14]

Martin: Thank you so much for that Brother Donald. You know, as I listened to the spiritual guidance that you’re providing through the Scriptures, you know, reminds me of when I was in my early 20s, I used to keep a journal and I would write in those moments where I, you know, felt kind of down and alone and was wondering when I would meet the one who was meant to be with. And as I was writing the script for this episode, I found an entry where I was asking, you know, “what am I going to find you? Where are we going to meet? And how long do I have to wait?” And it makes me smile reading that because even though in those moments when I was younger, I thought I had no idea where when or how you’re right that that I never lost confidence that so long as I stayed true to my faith and to my duties and always putting my focus and trust in God that she would arrive eventually. And she did. Praise be to God.

Bro. Donald: Yeah, Praise be to God. Again, we’d like to mention how we shouldn’t become fraught with worry or anxiety as we get older, and we are not yet married. Because what’s most important is our service to God, the ultimate goal. And the aim of every member of the Church is of course, salvation. And on the road to salvation, there are sacrifices, and there are difficulties. There’s a lot of events that we have to endure in order to attain salvation. So for some members of the Church, they don’t mind being by themselves, in the sense that they don’t have a spouse as they continue in their sojourn. 

Others may be looking for a spouse, but again, the Lord our God knows what is best. We should not, you know, just jump and grab at something that may pass us by, and then afterwards totally regret our decision, knowing full well that again, being members of the Church, we abide by the teachings of the Bible, that marriage, again, is a lifetime commitment. We don’t want to make that mistake. That is why it is incumbent upon us to place all our hope and trust in God. God knows when the time is. God knows who that individual should be. And if we have to patiently wait. And while patiently waiting, we remain performing our duties at serving God well again we will be blessed.

Martin: Thank you so much for that Brother Donald, one last question before we end this episode. You’re a very proud and happy father and now you’re also a proud and very happy grandfather. When little Hezekiah gets a little bit older and he starts you know, reaching that stage in his life where he’s thinking about finding the one, what kind of message would you give him? What kind of advice would you pass to your grandson?

Bro. Donald: I would tell Kiah as I call him, to conduct his devotional prayer, when it comes to what will be included in the prayer that God is going to allow him to meet an individual that is going to be someone who not only loves him, and that he in turn loves, but also will be supportive of him when it comes to the faith. That together with God be willing their children, they can remain active in honoring and praising, and also in serving our Father in heaven. That before he gets married, he should be very careful. He does not want the Lord God’s ire or anger to be inflicted upon him, because of the many temptations in this world, but rather to strive to live his life as a as a man of God, even though he may still be young, but a young man of God at that time, knowing full well that again, if he holds on to what God has promised to his chosen people, then he will be successful. And the Lord our God will plot the course of his life, that he can be of benefit when it comes to the Church, that personally he will also be rewarded. And he along with his family, again, they will be blessed

Martin: Well we want to thank you so much for joining us, Brother Donald, thank you so much to our listeners. We want to continue this conversation so please follow us using our hashtag on Instagram, #heartandsoulconversations to stay up to date with all things Heart & Soul. That’s it from us today. Hope we were able to help, hope we were able to connect and hope you’ll join us next time, ready to listen with all your heart and soul. Take care.

Martin Zerrudo: Tell me if this has happened to you before. You’re at work, at school, or maybe even at home, and the topic of religion comes up. How does it make you feel? Do you freeze and nod along to everything that they’re saying? Or do you let them know just how different your religious views are? 

It can lead to some awkward situations, especially when it’s with a loved one or friend, which is why sometimes people find it easier to avoid the conversation altogether. But should we avoid it? Is it possible to agree to disagree over something as important as salvation? Let’s have a Heart and Soul conversation.

[Show open]

Martin: You’re listening to Heart and Soul, a podcast from The Iglesia Ni Cristo, Church Of Christ. I’m your host Martin Zerrudo and I’ll be interviewing young adults from across the world who are living Christian lives but are also dealing with real world problems. This is Heart and Soul. 

Today we’ll be talking about how to handle conversations with our friends or loved ones who have different religious views than ours. Our first guest today is Alejandro from Montclair, California. Alejandro is 22 years old, single, and is a college student studying law enforcement. 

He’s a former Catholic and recently joined the Iglesia Ni Cristo, Church Of Christ in 2017. He’s here today to talk to us about the conversations he’s had with a friend that actually led him to find the true Church and the difficult conversations he now has and tries to have with his own brother, now that he’s found the truth and is trying to share his faith. Hello, Alejandro, how are you today? 

Alejandro Pena: Hello, Brother Martin. I’m pretty good right now. Weather is great. Enjoying life. 

Martin: Thank you very much. So, you said weather’s great over there.

Alejandro: Yeah, pretty good.

Martin: Not too cold, I’m sure. And our second guest today is Mark. Mark is from Toronto, Canada right here. He’s actually sitting right in front of me. Mark is 30 years old, single, and works full time at INC Media Services. He actually sits right behind me in our office and he’s also an established wedding photographer and loves to work out with friends and eat out with friends, too, that is very much true. 

He’s here to talk about his experiences in sharing his faith and what happened when one of his good friends actually decided to sign up for Bible studies, but unexpectedly changed their mind. Hello, Mark, how are you today?

Mark Diaz: Hey, Martin, how’s it going?

Martin: Doing well doing well. Alright, so our topic for today is about the difficulty and differences we encounter when talking to our friends or loved ones about religion. Now when talking about our religious differences, does every conversation have to end up with someone being right or wrong? Is it okay to respectfully agree to disagree without feeling like you’ve given up? 

Well, we’ve actually asked our listeners on Instagram using our hashtag,  #heartandsoulconversations. And we asked them when they’re confronted with conflict, how would they handle it? Will they fight or will they flight? And here’s what some of them had to say.

Kristine: If I cherish the relationship, I always try to address the conflict, even if that makes it uncomfortable at times.However, my silence is a clear sign that I do not care. And if I receive that I read it the same way.

Martin: So that was Kristine from the United States. Up next, we have John Kevin from Switzerland. And this is what he had to say.

John Kevin: Depends if I think something good and useful can result from it. If I don’t really care about the reason of the fight, or if the person is really closed minded, and it’s useless to try and argue, then I would just avoid it.

Martin: So again, that’s John Kevin, and lastly, we have Iris from Paris, France, and this is what she had to say.

Iris: It really depends on their situation, if it’s worth fighting for or not, because on the moment, sometimes it’s really hard to control your feelings or your emotions.

Martin: So again, that’s Iris. Listening to our responses it’s clear that it’s not an easy conversation to have when you hear those experiences from other people around the world. Alejandro, how does that make you feel when you hear their sentiments about when they’re engaging those kinds of conversations.

Alejandro: You kind of have to be careful what you’re going to say to those people. Because there’s many emotions going on. So, you’re going to have to tiptoe to get your point across, but even then, it can still eat up the conversation and cause you to have problems with that person, maybe.

Martin: Is it awkward? Does it feel awkward? Would you rather not have those kinds of conversations about faith?

Alejandro: I actually would rather have the conversation. But of course, I would try to do it in a place where it’s more appropriate.

Martin: Right, right. And Mark, you know, when you hear people who say, the conversations kind of going south, I’d rather just avoid it, and I don’t want to deal with it. Can you relate to that?

Mark: I guess, to me, it just really depends who I’m having a conversation with. I know it might not be a factor, but it could be depending on their age, their maturity level, if that’s the topic that they’re willing to have and be open about. Because I know sometimes when we’re a little bit younger, we’re just afraid of what everyone thinks about us, right? And the whole idea of being vulnerable in a faith aspect, not everyone gets.

Martin: Or wants to do…

Mark: Or wants to do, exactly. And I know that for us to growing up in the Church and having friends who don’t understand what that is, for them it’s kind of, just, it’s foreign right? So, for someone like us to express that, that side of our life, I can understand why people are afraid because they don’t want these other people to think that we’re this group of people.

Martin: That’s different.

Mark: That’s different. Exactly.

Martin: Right, right. And speaking about that, because you grew up for most of your life in the Church. For Alejandro, what religion did you grow up in? And what was that like Alejandro, the teachings as a kid, what were those teachings like? What made sense to you? What didn’t make sense to you?

Alejandro: My parents have been Catholic before I was born. I was baptized in it when I was an infant. But years later, my older brother introduced my parents to a Christian church. It was a denomination. We’re going from one church to another when things just didn’t seem right. I remember that the leader of the church was married and he divorced her to marry a younger one. It just didn’t seem right. There was also a time in the same church where one of the pastor’s married a couple, and the groom was drunk.

Martin: The groom was drunk?

Alejandro: Yeah, like literally drunk.

Mark: Oh my gosh.

Martin: In front of everybody who, in the ceremony?

Alejandro: Yes, he was at the front with his wife.

Mark: That’s crazy.

Alejandro: And then after the ceremony had ended, he went around to where we’re eating at. And really, he just didn’t have that sober way to walk.

Martin: And how old were you when you were seeing all this crazy church stuff?

Alejandro: I was already 17 or 16?

Martin: Wow.

Alejandro: Honestly, I kept going. But I told my mom after. Look, I went to church, this is what happened. And even she was thinking about, why are we going to that church then? If this stuff is happening.

Martin: Right, right. It just didn’t feel right going back?

Alejandro: It didn’t feel right. Now after some time, there was nothing there for me to keep going for.

Martin: So, after that experience, did you ever try and look for another church?

Alejandro: No, actually I stopped after some time before I was invited to the church I stopped going there. And going thought was I’ll try to look for God my way. Self teach myself what the Bible try to learn what God wants me to do. And then from there just live my life like that. Not go to church anymore but still obey Him.

Martin: Right. How did you go from trying to teach yourself through the Bible and then eventually learning about the Church Of Christ?

Alejandro: So, since that was my thought, to just self teach myself, my friend Lanuelle he contacted me through Facebook. I was posting verses of the Bible there. He messaged me, ‘Bro you know, I’m gonna just tell you straight forward. I want to invite you to Church, can you go?’ And so by that time since I wasn’t going to another church, I just said, ‘Yeah, sure. When?’ So, he said ‘oh, let’s do this Monday.’

Martin: Wow.

Alejandro: After work, I get home and he picks me up with his brother, and then for sure we head to Church. I remember the lesson was about the love of the Brotherhood. It made total sense to me from that point, but my main concern was about salvation.

Martin: I see.

Alejandro: I wanted to know, what did I have to do to be saved?

Martin: Now before all this, had you and Lanuelle already been friends? Or did he just randomly add you on Facebook and said, hey, man, you want to come to my church?

Alejandro: No, we were friends in high school.

Martin: I see, I see. And had religion ever come up in your conversations?

Alejandro: Yeah, they came up. Sometimes during lunchtime. There was this other guy with us. He believed in the Trinity. And Lanuelle would talk to him about it to like, no, that doesn’t exist. Or there’s just one God.

Martin: Mark in high school did religion ever come up in conversation in the cafeteria?

Mark: Oh, many times, actually. Because there were a lot of us in my previous locale that went to school together in high school. So, our mix of friends, were our Church friends and then we had our friends just from school, but we all sat together. So, everyone would always ask us how do you guys know each other? How are you guys so close? And we would always just tell them we grew up at Church together. They asked all what church do you go to? And we say, oh, the Church Of Christ. And then from there, they’d be like, oh, what do you guys believe in? And we would tell them that we’re Christian, and we follow what’s taught to us in the Bible. And usually it would drop really quickly because after that, after we would mention the Bible, they’d be like, “Oh that’s cool.” And then they go on to the next topic. But then there would also be times when we would invite them to Evangelical Missions. And then that’s where they would learn a little bit more about us. So that’s usually how it went around for us.

Martin: For myself, actually, in high school, also a lot of members of the Church Of Christ in the same high school that I went to. But it was very cliquey, not that we wanted to separate ourselves, but the sections of the school and the cafeteria were split up. But you know, we all lived harmoniously in the four years in high school. Alejandro, what made you decide you know what, this is the Church that I wanted to join?

Alejandro: Actually, I started seeing how people conducted themselves more inside the worship service.

Martin: Wow. What was different?

Alejandro: The worship service was very calm. It wasn’t yelling, or jumping, or people babbling stuff out of their mouth. It was all done in order and I’ve never seen before. That’s something that really caught my attention.

Martin: Right. So you eventually joined the Church. And we now get to the heart of the topic where you’ve now been able to actually share your faith with your parents. And I believe your sister, right? And they’ve joined the Church Of Christ as well?

Alejandro: Yes.

Martin: But your brother is a different story. Tell us about your brother, your relationship with him.

Alejandro: So my brother he would try to encourage me, to pray to God, but I’m going here to the Church Of Christ. I’ve noticed that he’s actually more just trying to attack more towards us. For lack of a better word.

Martin: You mean, he’s not too fond of you being a member of the Church Of Christ you mean? Like your discussions about faith was more civil before, but now that you’re a part of the Church it’s not so civil?

Alejandro: Yes.

Martin: I see.

Alejandro: It’s something that I’ve never seen before, even when we were going to the other denominations.

Martin: Right, right. Is he your older brother?

Alejandro: Right now, he’s the oldest one that I have here close.

Martin: I see, I see. Would you consider your relationship with this brother close?

Alejandro: Not too close. When we have topics of religion and stuff, I still try to invite him to Church.

Martin: Tell us about a time Alejandro, where you’ve had a conversation with your brother about religion, that didn’t go so well.

Alejandro: So, one day my parents and I got back from Church. I don’t remember too well, exactly. But I think he did call me. And these were the early days of us being members of the Church, and my parents as well. So, we started getting into a debate about the Church. He kept on telling me that God is not looking for you to be in the Church, he just wants you to obey Him. And so that’s when I told him, well, it’s in the Bible that we have to go to Church. So, by going to Church we are obeying God. So, I would quote these verses from the Bible to him. But he would just keep cutting me off. And that got me frustrated to even keep trying to talk to him about it.

Martin: Right now your conversations with your parents and your sister and trying to explain to them why they should join the Church Of Christ. How did they differ from this kind of conversation with your brother?

Alejandro: In regards with my mom?

Martin: Yeah.

Alejandro: I came back from a Bible Study, at 10 at night because I had some questions I wanted to ask the minister. And so, I got home. My mom was still awake, and I explained to her look, this is right here in the Bible. Jesus Christ is not God. And these are all the verses that lead to that point, that Jesus Christ is not God.

Martin: Yeah.

Alejandro: That night she went to sleep mad, but after some time that I kept going to Church, she just actually started accepting the fact that yeah, it’s in the Bible. I can’t deny that.

Martin: Right.

Alejandro: If this is what I believe in, I can’t deny it. So, she started going. Coming with me to Church. And then my mom, little by little started pulling my dad as well. And then he started going to Church as well.

Martin: Wow.

Alejandro: Which is something that he hasn’t done in a long time. And that really, that really got me happy that he started going to Church as well. So, once a mom and dad started coming with me to church, that’s when I approached my sister.

Martin: How did she take it?

Alejandro: The way it happened was she invited us to her church. We weren’t baptized yet. We went to her church. And I try to note down as much verses as I can, because I would note down the verses that the minister would give. And I didn’t get as much, and his topic was just bouncing from one to another. And then there was some things that he would say that was contrary to what the Church Of Christ teaches. And so, after the worship service at her church, I explained to her, look, this is what your pastor said, and this is what the Bible says. Now, what your pastor says, does it coincide with what the Bible says? And she would say, no, it does not. It doesn’t make sense. So, I say, okay, I went to your church. Now, I’m inviting you to mine. And that’s when she started coming to the Church Of Christ.

Martin: Right. You know, I myself, I wasn’t born in the Church. And I remember we were raised Catholic and Baptist, I believe. And I just remember going to church as a kid in those churches or those religions and it was just chaos. Kids running around, adult’s kind of shouting or yelling, sometimes clapping. And in my head, okay, I guess this is what worship is supposed to be like. 

But it really didn’t make sense to me. And then eventually when my mom brought me and my older brother to the Church Of Christ, just in the Children’s Worship Service, I said, wow, this is so different from the Sunday school that I used to go to where everybody’s just running around. And then the adult worship service was super solemn. And it was such a new thing for me. And I was 11-10 years old, wow, this is actually what a Worship Service is supposed to be like. So, I can definitely see where you’re coming from. But knowing that your brother did not take to what you were talking about the way that your parents did, the way that your sister did, how did that make you feel that he wasn’t seeing the things that your other family members were able to see?

Alejandro: It would get me mad. Sometimes I think that it’s probably just his stubbornness.

Martin: Right.

Alejandro: Or his ego, that blinds him to not want to come to the Church Of Christ. And so, if that’s the case, then I can’t do much there. That’s something that he just has to deal with.

Martin: But what made you so angry? What was it that you needed him to understand? What was the urgency there?

Alejandro: My urgency for him, it really is regarding salvation.

Martin: You want him to be saved, and you’re worried that he wouldn’t be?

Martin: Yes. I’d like to go to an article now from the Reno Gazette Journal. And they actually pose this question, on talking about having nonreligious friends or friends who have different religion than we do. And it says if our religion is the only right way, why should we be friendly with someone who is surely going to hell? How can we reconcile when we know that our friends’ worship is to a false god? As friends is it not our duty to bring him or her to the right path? 

And so, the journal is asking this question that if we have friends or family members who are not believing in the things that we believe in, and we know, and we believe that what we’re doing will lead us to salvation, shouldn’t we try anything and everything to make sure that our friends and our family members find the truth? Because, like the journal said, one person is going to go to hell and one person is going to go to heaven. It’s a very uncomfortable prospect to pose to somebody who either isn’t religious or believes in another religion where they think they’re the ones that are going to be saved. 

And now I want to bring Mark into the conversation. Mark, you’re a member of the Church Of Christ. You were born and raised in the Church. I’m sure you’ve had many opportunities to share your faith with a lot of different people. One person in particular your friend Andre, tell us about how you guys met how you’re eventually able to invite him to Worship Service.

Mark: So Andre, and I, we met through kickboxing. And I was fairly new to the activity. And usually in the classes, you partner up with someone, and so we were partners, and you know, he was just asking where I was from what I do for a living. And then when I mentioned the Church, he was like, oh, I do know some brethren from your Church. So, he actually invited me out for dinner one time and he was he said, maybe we should grab a bite sometime after working out or something. So, I told him, yeah, absolutely. So that time we did end up going out to eat. He was the one that actually asked all the questions, and I didn’t even bring it up at all, other than the fact that I work for the Church now.

Martin: What were some of the questions that he had?

Mark: He just said, ‘Oh, when do you go to Church?’. And I told them I usually attend on a Thursday early morning on a Wednesday night. On the weekend, either Saturday or Sunday. He said “Oh, so you go twice a week.” And I said, “Yes, there’s a midweek service and we have a weekend service.” And then he just straight up asked, “Would it be okay if I came with you sometime?”

Martin: Oh, wow.

Mark: And I said, “Absolutely.” I asked him too, “What faith did you grow up in? Where do you come from?” And he told me that he grew up his family’s Catholic, and that that’s what they grew up in. But he told me that they don’t always go to church together, it’s just depending on their work schedules. But at that time, too, he hadn’t attended in a very long time. And I asked him, you know “What do you believe in? What’s your faith?” And he told me that “You know, I I’d like to think that all good people will go to heaven. You do good to those who need it and it’ll come back to you.” So, I said “Yeah, you know, whenever you do want to come, the door is open.” So, he asked me “Okay, when is the next time you’re going to go to Church?” I said, “Actually, I’m going to Church tomorrow morning.” And he said, “Is it okay if I came with you?”

Martin: Wow.

Mark: And I said “Just letting you know, this is at 5:30 A.M. in the morning. When people are usually sleeping.”

Martin: Right.

Mark: “I’m not forcing you. And I know that’s a very early time to commit too. So, if you wanted to go to another time, absolutely.” And he said, “No, I want to go with you in the morning.” So, we did.

Martin: What was his reaction to the worship service?

Mark: Well, his first reaction after service was, “Wow, I didn’t know there were actually people that woke up at that time to go to Church in the morning.”

Martin: Right? It’s probably packed.

Mark: It’s fairly full. I remember the worship service at that time, it was about Thanksgiving.

Martin: Right, right, giving thanks.

Mark: Giving things and remembering our blessings throughout the year.

Martin: Oh that’s a great lesson.

Mark: And bringing it all back to God. So, I remember sitting there and I thought, wow, this is a really, really good lesson. Afterwards I asked him, “What did you think?” And he, the same thing as Alejandro said, he mentioned that it was very solemn. It was very peaceful. He actually for a moment was like, “I never realized what it felt like to just sit with your thoughts in a place where it was quiet. And I could just hear myself.”

Martin: Right. And that’s the great thing, just pause right there. For our listeners who maybe are not members of the Church Of Christ, who have never been able to experience, worshiping God in a house of worship of the Church Of Christ. Say the worship services at 6 o’clock at night. Doors are open roughly around half hour before. And you really have an opportunity to sit in the sanctuary, like Andre said, “with your thoughts to just meditate.” 

A lot of studies out there that says, the mindfulness aspect of it, the mental benefits of just being able to reflect peacefully and affirm yourself positively is so beneficial in all aspects. In your work, in your mental health, in everything. And so being able to do that, like you said, twice a week. You get to worship God, you get to pray and you get to sit there in your thoughts and meditate. So, when did he decide he wanted to join the Church?

Mark: He didn’t decide that he wanted to join the Church. But he did decide that he wanted to learn about the Church.

Martin: Oh, I see.

Mark: From the beginning I told him you know, “Whatever questions you have, or if there’s any time that you need some clarification on something, we can always talk to the minister.” And that led him to coming to one of the evangelical missions. And it was after that, that first one that he attended that he said that I’d like to learn more about your Church. “Can I sign up for Bible studies?”

Martin: Right. Now when we say sign up for Bible studies, that just means for those who aren’t members of the Church, that it’s 28 lessons. Completely free, with the minister or worker of the local congregation that’s nearest to you. Which I’m sure they did for Andre.

Mark: Yes.

Martin: Works around your schedule on when you’re able to attend the Bible studies. And at the end of the 28 lessons it doesn’t mean that you automatically become a member of the Church Of Christ. It’s a really great way to continue your spiritual journey. How did that make you feel that your friend who you met at the gym, was so eager to learn about the Church? And then signed up for Bible studies. 

Mark: I felt great. I’ve actually never experienced having a friend, thankfully a close friend now, interested on their own to know what we do in the Church and what the Church is all about.

Martin: Right.

Mark: So, for me to not even have to push anything on him, but just kind of be there with him and have him listen. It was nice to know that maybe God is using me as an instrument to let him at least learn about our faith.

Martin: Right. I remember, because we’re also good friends, you’d bring him to our hangouts. We’d all have dinner together, we’d hang out. He’d help us out with some of our shoots here in the studio. Really, really nice, great guy. Still, today we hang out sometimes. But then something happened. He changed his mind. What happened.

Mark: Halfway through the lessons, I want to say he maybe got through five or six lessons and he sent me a text message unexpectedly after one of the Bible studies. I had dropped him home. And then when I got home I had this really long text from Andre. And in his text, first he thanked me and he said, “I really appreciate our friendship and you’ve been so kind and bringing me to all the lessons and helping me whenever I needed it, and I’m so thankful to know that I have someone that is very faith driven.” And then near the middle of the text message he said, “unfortunately I’m gonna have to put a hold on learning about your Church, not because I disagree with it or I’m upset about anything but I don’t feel ready to keep going.” And he mentioned that a big part of it is that he felt like he was betraying his family who he actually did mention that he was going to church too, and there wasn’t any factor of them stopping him. They kind of just said, “whatever makes you happy, then we’re there for you.” But I think a part of him from what he was saying, he just said that he was abandoning I guess the roots of his family. So he said that he wasn’t ready to fully commit and he was hoping that we can all still be friends. “You’ve introduced me to a great pool of brethren and community that I never thought existed.” 

Martin: Right, right. 

Mark Diaz: He said “I hope that I can still hang out with you guys.” He said “If there’s another opportunity for me to want to learn or to continue on in learning” he said “I hope I can come back to your Church and I hope that this doesn’t end anything or change anything.” And I said “Oh absolutely not. The doors will always be open for you and the friendship and everyone that you’ve met continues. And it doesn’t make us think any less of you” because I think he was worried too that…

Martin: He’d be ostracized.

Mark: Exactly, for believing something else.

Martin: Alejandro I’d like to ask. This concept of betrayal; do you feel like your brother made you feel like you joined a different Church than what he was used to when he used to go to with you. You were able to get your parents to join the true Church, and then your sister. Do you feel like there’s that element of “you kind of betrayed what we used to have as a family because you converted everybody to a different Church than what we grew up in.” 

Alejandro: Yeah, that could be a possibility too. He probably feels isolated from us, in a way. For that reason that could lead him to think that this is probably not the right Church.

Martin: And that’s a difficult thing right. It becomes, not just a difference of belief, but it comes very “your team versus my team.” 

Alejandro: Yeah 

Martin: Which is why I think some of our listeners, they kind of stray away from it. You can even hear from the social media comments was that “it’s not worth my time. I’m gonna share my faith but if I know it’s not going to go anywhere. If they already seem very adversarial than I’d rather not.” Thankfully for Mark, you were able to have a friend who was eager to learn; who, even though they were very much entrenched in their family’s faith, was willing to be open minded about it. But you know unfortunately not everybody is. Mark did you feel like you failed when he said he wasn’t gonna join or that he wasn’t ready to fully finish all the lessons yet?

Mark: I didn’t feel, I wasn’t discouraged. I think I was more hopeful. It wasn’t completely an end to something because at least in a way I was able to share something that’s been a part of my life. 

Martin: Right

Mark: That’s huge to me. So no I don’t think I failed in that sense.

Martin: Actually my dad, who eventually became a member of the Church Of Christ after 20 plus years of having conversations similar to the conversations you have Alejandro with your brother, he very much criticized why we went to Church, why we spent so much time there, why we had to go to Church and not just be a good person and be saved. And again like your situation Alejandro, it was me, my brother and my mom.  It was the three of us that were members of the Church Of Christ and he was not. So he very much also felt isolated. 

I’m sure there was a level of betrayal there where we would always choose worshiping God over anything else. But the thing is like you Mark a no now is not a no forever. And despite maybe the difficult conversations you’ve had, Alejandro, the difficult conversations I’ve had with my dad and for any of our listeners who are members of the Church Of Christ, who have had multiple difficult conversations with people who we care about, who we wanted to share our faith with, it’s not a no forever. And like Mark said, don’t feel so discouraged that because it’s not happening right now that it won’t ever happen. 

Mark: Exactly. 

Martin: There’s still value, very much so in just being able to share our faith in those kind of conversations. Now, I’d like to play one more clip, and this is from Ian from the United Kingdom, and this is what he has to say about having conversations with those who have different religion. 

Ian: When I’m speaking to someone about my faith, and they don’t agree, I try not to get too worked up about it. As a member of the Church Of Christ, it’s my duty to share my faith. And if someone has a different opinion, then I tried to have an open mind about it, just so I can avoid causing drama. At the end of the day, everyone is entitled to have their own opinions. But I know that once I try, then I’ve done my part.

Martin: Now I’d like to bring in Minister of the Gospel and show favorite of course brother Richie Juatco. Now, Brother Richie what spiritual advice would you give to our listeners who do find themselves in a similar situation. How do we share our faith, stand up for our faith without seeming like we’re judging others or as Ian would say causing drama? Is there comfort in knowing that even if they don’t see eye to eye in how we believe and how we will attain salvation that we can still respectfully agree to disagree knowing that we’ve done our part in sharing our faith?

Brother Richie: To respectfully disagree with someone, we always want to do it in a way to where what we’re merely doing is following what is written in the Bible. That’s why it’s interesting to hear the conversations, hear some of the experiences of Alejandro and Mark and even yourself Martin. There is a lot of work to put into it. 

When you speak about your religion, when you speak about your faith. And it is also interesting to hear some that maybe say that they don’t want to put in that effort if they feel that it’s not going to go anywhere. Now, engaging in conversation regarding religion and faith is something that is not only encouraged for us, but rather instructed by the Lord Jesus Christ to those whom He recognizes as His disciples are those inside His Church. He’s the one that describes us in a particular way, as Christians and what our responsibility is. And because we want to be driven by our faith, I will read what is recorded here in Matthew chapter 5, 14 to 16. What is His instruction? What is it that He describes us as? Our Lord Jesus Christ says:

You are the light of the world. A city that is set on a hill cannot be hidden. Nor do they light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on a lampstand, and it gives a light to all who are in the house. Let your light shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father in heaven. 

[Matthew 5:14-16 NKJV]

Brother Richie: So, it’s not only encouraged. It’s not only something that we can do, an option. No, it’s an actual instruction. Our Lord Jesus Christ says “You are the light of the world, let your light shine.” And the best way for us to shine is to share our faith; to tell people what we’ve learned, to tell people the Biblical truths that we were able to hear. But in our sharing, we should not disregard the Bible’s instruction on how to conduct ourselves. Because it’s true, there might be some who, when they hear it, they might respond in all different ways. They might be angry as we heard in some of the experience of those that are on the panel. But what is it that we’re taught? How is it that we conduct ourselves? I’m going to read again, also what’s written because that is what is our guide. Here in First Peter chapter 2, the verses 17, it says:

Show proper respect to everyone, love the family of believers, fear God, honor, the emperor. 

[1 Peter 2:17 NIV]

Brother Richie: Now here we have a set of instructions, a set of guidelines and notice it says, show proper respect to everyone. So the term, everyone, includes even those that don’t agree with our beliefs. As I heard in Alejandro’s, when he explained about his friend Lanuelle, he was able to notice that even though people were not agreeing with what he was saying he was able to keep calm. He was able to still show respect. And that caught his attention. There might be others that get really frustrated, get really angry if somebody doesn’t agree with them, but the Bible makes clear we should show proper respect to everyone. 

Now since we are discussing, so we want to show proper respect to everyone. Since what we are discussing in particular is dealing with friends that have a different faith than us, or even converting others to different religions, we need to understand how that’s done. How is conversion done or having faith or belief grow in someone, because if one doesn’t understand that it can lead to frustrations, it can lead to people maybe being angry with each other. If one shares their faith and the other person doesn’t believe or converts then they feel that they failed. 

What is that process of having a belief grow in someone who who didn’t have it before, the true faith. I’ll read here from First Corinthians chapter 3, verses 6, Apostle Paul clarifies he says:

I planted the seed, Apollos watered the plant, but it was God who made the plant grow.

[I Corinthians 3:6 Good News Translation]

Brother Richie: So to have that grow in somebody, it is really God, that does it. Everyone’s just doing their part. If someone shares their faith, they’ve done their part, right? If that person believes, if that person joins the Church Of Christ, that will be part of the entire process and it will be God Himself, that will make that grow in them. So we have Mark, where he shares his faith, and then ultimately at the end of his story he said that his friend did not convert or did not join the Church. He did his part. And who knows? Maybe that that seed that was planted in his mind, hopefully will grow down the line. But then he was able to at least do what was instructed to him. We know that if one is going to join, they’re going to join the faith, they’re going to join the Church, which the Bible makes clear Church Of Christ, or the body of our Lord Jesus Christ, we have to understand, how is it that one is able to even join the Church. Again, let’s go to what’s recorded for clarity. I’ll read here in 1 Corinthians 12, 18. It says:

Brother Richie: “But as it is, God arranged the members in the body, each one of them, as he chose.” [1 Corinthians 12:18 (English Standard Version)]

Brother Richie: So it really is, it’s God. It’s God that is going to call someone to have the true faith. It’s God that’s going to add them to join the Church. Therefore no one should get frustrated. No one should get too angry or even the other extreme, where someone says “I’m not going to put the effort in any way because you actually touched upon something when you said sometimes people don’t want to judge. So they’re going to not say anything. That’s actually the opposite because if you don’t say anything thinking, “Oh this person’s going to, nothing’s going to happen anyway.” Now you have judged. You’re the one that judges if that person is going to have the faith or not. Leave it to God. 

How is it that you leave it to God? Just follow the instructions. What we do is we just do our part. We speak up. So we speak up we share our faith, and it will be God that ultimately converts people to have the proper faith. We just do our part. Now, there are times where beliefs, they’re going to contradict. That is the one thing that many people maybe have not observed. Everyone wants to do what’s right. 

Mark in his story he said that his friends said “all good people will go to heaven.” That’s his belief. Okay then great, but who is good? What some people think is good is different from what other people think is good. So there will be, and we can see there’s a lot of different churches. They all believe that they’re doing what is right, but they’re all doing things that are different. They have different names, they have different beliefs, they have contradicting ways of worshipping God. So there is going to be teachings that are going to contrast, are going to contradict. 

So in doing our part, should we be timid to tell the truth, if it is in stark contrast to what others presently believe. Or, a question that others have is should we join in what we know is already wrong just to help them come to the light? Well the Bible is clear regarding what our focus should be in shining as lights. I’ll read from Ephesians chapter 5 verses 10 to 11, it says:

Try to discover what the Lord wants of you having nothing to do with futile works of darkness, but exposing them by contrast. [Ephesians 5:10,11 Jerusalem Bible]

Brother Richie: So, like we said, when we do share our faith, if we’re trying to figure out what really is the truth, there are going to be times where we can avoid exposing what is false, by contrast of what is true. So the whole purpose is to do what God wants us to do. So we’re not just trying to please others. We’re not just trying to build relationships for any reason, but we’re actually trying to help others. 

In Alejandro’s account, he shared, he learned something himself, and that is natural. When we learn something that we feel is valuable, we feel is important, of course we want to share it with others. From any level of value, it could be a great restaurant, could be a great movie, whatever, all the way to “This is the way that you’re going to be saved” you inherently want to share that with others. So, we can see he shared it with his parents. He shared it with his sister. They were able to realize this is good. 

Now he shared it with his brother. His brother currently right now has not softened up to the idea of hearing but he’s still following. Alejandro’s following the teachings of God. That’s what we have to do. Leave that leave that to God. 

So engaging in conversations regarding religion, faith, is something really that strengthens our own faith, because if we engage in conversation, and if we’re talking about it, then it reinforces what we have. And why is it that we should do that.This instruction, and I’ll read here in 1 Peter 3, 15. It says:

Be ready to speak up and tell anyone who asks why you’re living the way you are, 

[1 Peter 3:15 The Message]

Brother Richie: The reason why we should be calm, the reason why we should not be frustrated, the reason why we should speak up is because we should know our faith. There are some that will get frustrated when we do engage in conversation with them, because they might not know their faith. They might know what they were taught, but the basis of it, they might. So that when we do talk about that, when we do speak about that, that can get frustrating to them. But we leave that to God. We do our part and we hope and pray that He will just as He has mercy on us, giving us the opportunity to actually know the truth written in the Bible, that they too will have a chance and they will have that best opportunity to answer His call.

Martin: Definitely thank you so much Brother Richie. And for our listeners who are eager to share their faith and are inspired of course by the verses that Brother Richie has read from the Bible, there are a lot of tools online that make sharing our faith and make those conversations that much more easier, that much more simpler. If you go to the website incmedia.org, right on the right side is a big red button that says questions. 

One of the main reasons why sometimes people avoid having the conversation about different religions is they don’t always have the answer. Well tell them to go to incmedia.org, put in their question and then they’ll get a response and it’s totally open to whatever interests or questions you may have about faith, about spirituality, about teachings in the Bible; it’s all there for you. If they’d rather listen to a podcast, there’s this podcast, the Gods message podcast. If they want to find something about their family or their kids if you’re a little bit older, there’s Faith and Family, a lot of content that shows why we as members of the Church Of Christ live the way that we are and how we act as Christians in the Christian family unit. 

If you have questions about depression about solving problems in their life that they’re trying to find the answers to, we have a show called The Solution. Everything that you find on incmedia.org is tailored to make that conversation that much easier. And it’s just more tools to Brother Richie’s verse that he read as the ones who are working on the field, there’s more tools that we use. You’re not just using your hands when you’re planting a seed, right? You have tools. You have other things that will help you to make sure that when it’s time for God to make it grow, that has been prepared the right way. And that website not only helps people understand our faith but also as Brother Richie said helps us in our faith to remind us why we ended up joining the Church in the first place. 

Now before we close the episode I’d like to ask two final questions to Alejandro. Hopefully you’re able to continue to have those conversations with your brother. Maybe he’ll have a chance to hear this podcast right now if you send the episode to him. If he was listening right now Alejandro, what would you say to your brother?

Alejandro: I would tell him, “Bro this is my faith that I’ve learned and I’ve really have held on to, and I know this is something that has helped me for the better, in my life. And so that’s the reason I share it with you, because I do love you like my brother that you are, and if God wills, I hope you one day join the Church as well.”

Martin: Thank you Alejandro. And Mark, if Andre were to be listening right now, what would you say to him?

Mark: I’d say “I know that you are looking for peace, and that you want to live a happy life, but what if you can take that happiness to another level.”

Martin: So we want to thank everybody for joining us today. Thank you, Alejandro for sharing your story, your inspiring moments in your life, and the challenges as well, giving us a closer look into the conversations that you’ve had in your life. Thank you so much Alejandro.

Alejandro: Thanks Martin, it’s been good sharing my life experiences here. 

Martin: It was a great conversation. Thank you Mark, for sharing your story as well. 

Mark: Thanks for having me. 

Martin: Thank you for joining us and for introducing us to your friend. Andre if you’re listening, door’s always open not only in the house of worship, but also in joining us whenever we go out. Thank you Brother Richie again. Most importantly, thank you so much for providing us and the listeners with spiritual guidance on how to navigate probably one of the hardest things that we have to face in life and in being able to be brave enough to shine as lights, to share our faith but confidently, and compassionately converse that with other people. Thank you so much Brother Richie. 

Brother Richie: Oh, thank you, thank you for giving us a chance to join.

Martin: And for all of our listeners, please follow our hashtag on Instagram, #heartandsoulconversations to stay up to date with all things Heart & soul. That’s it from us today. Depending on when you’re listening to this, hope you have a happy New Year. Hope we were able to help, hope you were able to connect and we hope you’ll join us next time, ready to listen with all your heart and soul. Take care.

Martin Zerrudo: When you wake up in the morning, and stand in front of the mirror, how do you feel about the image that you see? What do you say to your own reflection? Is it a positive, confident conversation with yourself? Or is it something else? Your mind, body, and soul, what are they saying about who you are? And how is it different from what the world is telling you? Are they all working together to create an image and lifestyle that you’re happy with? Let’s have a Heart and Soul conversation. 

[Show open]

Martin: You’re listening to Heart & Soul, a podcast from the Iglesia Ni Cristo, Church Of Christ. I’m your host, Martin Zerrudo, and I’ll be interviewing young adults from across the world who are living Christian lives, but are also dealing with real world problems. This is Heart & Soul.

Welcome to Heart & Soul, my name is Martin Zerrudo. And today we’ll be talking about loving your body, and being healthy in mind, body, and soul. 

Our first guest today is Alison Pablo, an 18-year-old from San Francisco, California. 

Alison has struggled with acne and her weight since an early age, and has joined us today to talk about what she did to overcome some forms of bullying in her past, her self-esteem issues when it comes to her skin, and how a new diet and mindset has helped her, not only cope, but respect the body that God gave her. Hello Alison! How are you?

Alison: Hi, doing great, how about you? 

Martin: Very good! Now our second guest today is Dr. Darwin Buyson. 

Dr. Buyson is a psychologist from the United Kingdom, and is here today to provide insight on body image, the effects it has on the mental health of youth today, and how society has affected their perception of what it means to be healthy and beautiful. Hello Doctor Buyson! Or Darwin, how are you today? 

Dr. Buyson: I’m good thanks, how are you?

Martin: Very good Thank you again for joining us. I know the time delay, we’re in three different time zones right now and you’re kind of coping with the latest hour so thank you so much for joining us. And our third guest today is Lauren Famatigan. Lauren is a graduate of Dietetics and Food Administration with an option in Nutrition and Dietetics, from Irvine, California. She is here today to shed some light on diet, the food we eat, and how it can affect our bodies both in the short term, and in the long term. Hello Lauren! How are you?

Lauren: Hi, I’m good, thank you for having me!

Martin: We also have Jun Gopez, from California. He is 26 years old, an Assistant Lab Manager in a pharmaceutical research lab. As a young child, he struggled with his weight all his life, and has joined us today to talk about how he took control of his diet, his weight, and his life. Hello Jun, how are you?

Jun: Hi Martin, I’m good. Thank you for having me on here.

Martin: Last but not least, now that we have our body, and mind experts, onto the soul. We have joining us today, minister of the gospel Bro. Richie Juatco. A show favorite of ours. And it’s a perfect topic to explore a side of you Brother Richie that maybe not a lot of our audience know about unless they’ve met you first hand! Brother Richie actually lives a very healthy and active lifestyle and we can’t wait to hear how our faith and the teachings in the Bible contribute to a positive body image and a healthy way of life. Hello Brother Richie, how are you po?

Brother Richie: How are you Brother Martin? Thank you once again for having us all on this episode. And it seems like a very interesting topic this time.

Martin: Definitely. Let’s get right into it. A couple of weeks ago we posted something on our Instagram account, follow us #HeartAndSoulConversations and we asked our audience “How do you feel about your body? Do you love your body?” Here’s a clip from one of our listeners talking about how she feels.

“My body and I have a love hate relationship. It’s a struggle to maintain and it’s definitely something that needs lots of love. But not too much love. You know like, sweets. Because for me, that’s my weakness. Sweets. But you know, I know what I need to improve on, it’s just a matter to committing myself to making things happen in order to get to a healthier me.”

Martin: Now I’d like to start with Darwin. Doctor Buyson, when people say they have a love hate relationship with their bodies, what exactly are they saying about themselves?

Dr. Buyson: It’s probably useful at this point to remind ourselves that body image is defined as certainly from a psychological point of view about our thoughts and feelings about the way we look, the way our body functions. Which could include how we think and feel about our weight, shape, skin color, appearance. When I hear someone say they have a love hate relationship with their body, what that suggests is the person who gave that account, is highly pre-occupied and even anxious about their body image. And this level of preoccupation can become a problem as it leads us to constantly monitoring and evaluating our body image against standards that are difficult to attain for most of us normal human beings. So that’s something that I pick up from that statement of having a love hate relationship. Your body image is that critical and it’s that important to you that it elicits such strong feelings. 

Martin: Definitely. And it’s not limited to that one person. This study that you provided us: 60% of adults in the UK reported that they feel ashamed of the way that they look. Are you surprised at that number of people who are, have such negative views of their body?

Dr. Buyson: It’s a huge proportion isn’t it? I mean when you think 60% of people that’s more than half of the people we know. It does surprise me on one hand. On the other hand, I guess it’s something that is to be expected given the amount of scrutiny and the way the body is portrayed in the media as well. It’s very difficult to not pay attention to body image.

Martin: And to that scrutiny specifically with regards to women, a study from Dove Research Study: Only 4% of women around the world actually consider themselves beautiful. Now I want to go to Alison. Alison, as a young woman, when you hear those numbers, 60% in the UK they’re not happy, they’re ashamed with how they look, 4% around the world, that’s billions of women, only 4% of them feel beautiful. How does that make you feel when you hear that number? And have you ever, do you relate to that feeling of “you know what, I don’t think I’m beautiful.”

Alison: Yeah hearing that especially those numbers where 60%, that’s more than half of the population. It’s really really upsetting because no one really teaches you about how to love yourself. No one teaches you about this mental relationship that you have with yourself. So, no one really knows the right way or the wrong way, if there is the right or wrong way. But the fact that it affects billions of people or women like me, I can definitely relate to that. 

And I feel like I have my days. But definitely one part of my life I was a part of that 4% of the women around the world who don’t find themselves beautiful. Because there’s a lot of standards, beauty standards, especially in our society nowadays that contribute to that. And it’s unfortunate but that’s really just the truth and that’s what the world has come to unfortunately.

Martin: Definitely. Growing up, was there an instance either in the classroom, that feeling of standards, comparing yourselves with maybe the other girls in school. Is there an instance where you felt beside your peers “Oh man, am I supposed to look that way? Is there something wrong with me if we don’t’ look the same?”

Alison: Yeah definitely. When you brought that up, I immediately thought of, it wasn’t only in school but it was also outside of school like sometimes at Church. A lot of my friends they would borrow each others clothes because they were kind of around the same size. I couldn’t borrow any of their clothes. And it was hard for me to understand but at the same time I was like “Oh ok.” It was just something I had to accept in the moment. But, being I want to say 7 or 8, maybe even 6, you don’t really know much right? You just know that “Oh I can’t fit my friends clothes. But theirs are really really nice clothes that I can’t fit in them.” It was just a huge comparison game that I probably dealt with all throughout elementary school, middle school, and up until high school. And I think even still to this day, but definitely when I was younger it was whole, it was always competition of why can’t I fit my friends clothes, why can’t I fit this size, why can’t I fit these really really nice clothes? It was just always always just a game.

Martin: When it came to your teachers. Did you ever reach out to them, let them know how you were thinking? Did any of them maybe inadvertently reinforce that mentality that some of you guys don’t look the same?

Alison: Yeah! Even sadder to say but a lot of those kind of situations happen probably around elementary and middle school. Especially my PE teachers. Those were the really hardest. I mean 8th grade my PE teacher at the time, he looked directly at me, and said “the heavier weight class”. This was during wrestling and I was so scared for this cause like man there’s no girls who are like my size. No one I can really wrestle so am I even going to do wrestling? But I just remember how much it hurt me when he looked directly into my eyes and said “heavier weight class” and put me in that group. 

And I just remember dwelling on it for a really really long time. And I still really really remember that and it hurts, but I kind of laugh about it now cause it’s like, why was I so upset about it? But I think it was the fact that it came from someone who I guess I looked up to? Who I relied on who I put all my trust in. Who was like my teacher. So I think that’s what hurt more rather than what he said to me. 

Martin: And Jun, somebody who also went through something similar, was there an instance either in your childhood or growing up in your teens where you kind of looked at yourself and compared yourself to others and thought negatively about how you looked?

Jun: I think it’s funny that Sister Alison mentioned wrestling and being separated in PE class by weight cause something similar actually happened to me. Not necessarily that a teacher necessarily targeted me or singled me out. But we were told to organize ourselves by weight. And that was something that I tended to, I guess I was in denial about it. That the number doesn’t matter that much but then when it was brought up I was like “Oh, that is not what I expected.” And I feel ashamed because of that number and because of how I feel and how I looked. So it was definitely not the most pleasant experience then.

Martin: Dr. Buyson, when you hear that these two accounts, kids growing up not really being facilitated mentally in terms of how they’re supposed to look at themselves, in what ways do you feel like the school system, maybe some of the teachers, what should be able to help in that regard?

Dr. Buyson: I think there is a problem with awareness I think of the impact of what people say. Not just in schools but I think even kind of culturally we tend to say throw away comments about appearance. We can freely comment about people’s weight, about people’s skin color and not realizing the impact of that and how we are, as opposed to perpetuating some of these insecurities that people already feel. I think some awareness needs to be developed about how we inadvertently just perpetuate the stigma of body image.

Martin: Of what people are supposed to look like. 

Dr. Buyson: Absolutely. 

Martin: Brother Richie, as a Minister of the Gospel, when you hear that there’s so many youth, whether they’re part of the Church or not part of the Church Of Christ, that are suffering in silence, whether it’s because of a lack of awareness, a lack of support, is there anything in terms of the Bible or teachings that we can kind of rely on to know that we’re not suffering in silence or we don’t have to? 

Brother Richie: I did have one observation before we get to that question, because when you were reading the stats, the way I looked at it, because it’s, I think we’re very grateful that we do have some that want to share their struggles and many times when one is going through that they feel alone, they feel by themselves. What Dr. Darwin he mentioned that psychologically, it really is the thoughts that one has about their situation. So the feelings that they have in many times when it comes to image, what happens is naturally people compare themselves to others. It’s not only the people physically around you. It is not only printed magazines you can see on the internet. Now you have such a bigger scale of comparing yourself. 

But the statistics which was read to us earlier, it shows that it’s common. So it’s not something that is isolated, that “I’m the only one that’s like that” in fact from what we read, most people are like that. Most people feel that. So it is not that I’m saying it’s not a problem. It’s actually something that is more common of a problem thAn we actually might have known before seeing those statistics. 

So, what is it that we can do to help? Again, as Dr. Darwin said, get education. Be aware. Find out “How is it that I’ll be able to find some medium between ‘is there something that I need to change? Or is there something that needs to just change? Maybe mentally, my feelings need to change? Is it my body that actually has to change?'” 

So there is something that we can find out. Where is it that one can focus on to make them content, make them happy, make them peaceful with the situation that they’re in? Now, in terms of image does the Bible have anything to say with the image of a person? But we’ll start off right there in the beginning, just to answer that question here in Genesis:

…in the image of God. He created him; male and female he created them. [Genesis 1:27 English Standard Version]

Brother Richie: So in terms of image, when the Bible makes mention, is there an image, an ideal image? Here it says that God created man in His own image. Now I do want to preface, someone might think “Is the way that we look?” Because physically, we cannot be the image of God, because in the Bible, 1 Timothy 1:17 NIV, “God is invisible.” We’re not talking about a physical image. 

What is this image that we should be like God? If we read in Ephesians 4:24, it’s in righteousness, it’s in holiness, it is in love. So that is how we should be. God says “I’m holy, therefore you should be holy.” So that is where we should start. It says our feelings, our thoughts, and that will give us some basis, some direction. 

In terms of the body, does the Bible have an instruction? Because if our image should be “we should be righteous, we should be holy, we should make sure that we live periphery” then we’re going to follow God’s instructions. Does He have an instruction in terms of our physical image? I’ll read here in 1 Thessalonians 5:23 GNT:

May the God who gives us peace make you holy in every way and keep your whole being…

[1 Thessalonians 5:23 Good News Translation]

Brother Richie: Being; what is the whole being? It’s “…spirit, soul, and body.” So what is it that we should do to keep our whole being, spirit, soul and body? It says “Keep your whole being free from every fault at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.” So there is an instruction. There is even our physical body, make sure we keep it free from any fault. That will give us some guidelines of our image, how we should we think of it, what we should do with it, physically, psychologically. And hopefully if we’re able to hold that, then we will find that peace. We’ll be content. “This is how it’s supposed to be.”

Martin: Definitely and those verses tie into exactly some of the things that, like you said Brother Richie, that Dr. Darwin was saying, that we wish a lot of people knew today that there actually is a guideline. There’s scripture to point you in the direction of where you want to go. Unfortunately, there [are] a lot of people, not only are they suffering in silence but it leads to certain things where instead of trying to do something good they end up doing something bad. 

I’ll point to another study. Approximately 91% of women are unhappy with their bodies and resort to dieting to achieve their ideal body shape. Now I want to go to Lauren as someone who’s taken nutrition, who has worked in the nutrition field of dieting. What role does diet play in a positive body image in our overall health?

Lauren: Like a way of life, in a sense, because it’s what we eat, it’s what we choose to eat and when to eat and how we, how it can affect our bodies, obviously depending on what we eat. 

When we’ve studied nutrition, our main focus is our relationship with food. So how we perceive food and that of course comes into play of what food choices that we’ll make. So if, for a lot of people who have unhealthy relationships with with food, it can lead to, just by seeing food as an enemy, or what have you, it can lead to things like psychological disorders. 

And so the nutrition, we want to kind of break from that and really bring people to have a healthy relationship for, once again, and look for more long term benefits and making good choices that will create good habits later on. And instead of like instant results. It’s better for us to make good choices so that our future, our lifestyle later on will be will be good and healthy and strong.

Martin: What are some examples when you we’re nutritionist where you saw bad eating habits or a bad relationship with food? What are some of the signs?

Lauren: One of our main things is to make sure we’re very balanced and portion control. I think it’s hard, especially in America. We see the portion sizes nowadays are much larger than before. So it tricks us into thinking “Oh this was probably how much we should be eating” and, different factors. Like if we’re eating out with friends and restaurants have big portions, things like that will tend to eat all those big portions and not realize, “Oh, maybe we’re already full” and maybe we might not eat as much. But you know when you’re in a social setting too, that comes into play.

Martin: Definitely! I’d like to expand on that. Jun, in those family settings or social settings where you’re kind of pressured, “Oh no, you should eat more. Have you eaten already?” For whatever culture you may be in, I guess that would be a common theme that when you get together with your family members, the expectation is that the amount of food that you should be eating, it should be in proportion to the amount of food that was prepared. 

Do you have any kind of thoughts to that and how maybe some of those social settings may be pressured you to kind of, “you know what this is okay I should probably be eating a lot more than I should be”?

Jun: Me, personally, I noticed, especially in retrospect that anytime that there was an abundance of food, like especially at family parties or other social gatherings. If it’s available then I should eat it. “I can get more because there’s food available.” And so even if I was physically full already, then I’d keep eating because I like the taste. So it wasn’t really healthy relationship with food that I developed.

Martin: Brother Richie, anything to add? 

Brother Richie: Having a good relationship with food, understanding how things were set up as if we’re if we’re going to use scriptural guidelines right how things were set up so that everything would go well for us. Sometimes it really is our own misunderstanding of what that good relationship is. And that’s where the problem comes about. That is something that we can actually use. We want a basis to find out everything that’s provided for us, things that are there for us, for our health, for our talking about body wise, image. 

Listen to what I’ll read here from Ecclesiastes chapter 7, verse 9:

Truly, this only I have found: That God made man upright, But they have sought out many schemes.

[Ecclesiastes 7:29 New King James Version]

Brother Richie: When it comes to how our God made us, because some might say “That’s just not how I’m made,” the Bible makes clear God made people upright. So He made them the right way in order to live the way that they ought to, the way that was a plan. 

But it says that many have sought out many schemes. So they’ve diverted from that. And Lauren said diet is not just being on a diet. Diet is you eating, “What is it that you eat?” Many people use this as a barometer of what they’re going to eat; whatever tastes good. And sometimes that’s it. That’s the only rule that they have. 

That’s something that we have to be careful about. Because not everything that tastes good, is good for us. 

So again, we need to make sure that we keep ourselves free from every fault. It is going to be incumbent on us to want to learn. Again, I go back to what was mentioned. You need to be aware. You can’t just straight follow the crowd, follow what everyone else is doing. You need to make sure that you’re aware of yourself, of what you’re doing, so that you actually have a control of yourself, of your life, to make sure that you are following those instructions given to us by God.

Martin: Definitely, and when you were reading that verse, Brother Richie, about how God made man upright, before we recorded this podcast I was listening to other podcasts that were talking about body image and this one woman who was doing a podcast was, she’s very healthy, she lives a healthy lifestyle, she’s very healthy, but she had an issue because for whatever reason, no matter how healthy she ate, no matter how much she worked out, she couldn’t get the kind of abs that she wanted. 

She was super stressed out, and she’s an influencer and so she felt even a lot of the comments people were kind of making fun of her like “you’re somebody who preaches to be healthy and, live a healthy lifestyle but you have like a flabby stomach.” So she was really bogged down by that. And then she actually decided to do 23andme, which is where they take your saliva and then they give you your genetic readout to kind of give you, not only your ancestry, but what some of your genetic proclivities are when it comes to your body. And what I found super interesting in relation to your verse, Brother Richie, was that they found that genetically just for her body type and just how all of her genes have passed down, she’s likely to have five to 10% more body fat in that region of her body. 

So even if her and somebody else in her same family or somebody close to her family, or a friend of hers who lived the exact same lifestyle, who ate the exact same food and worked out the exact same time, she’s just genetically supposed to have that much more body fat just in that part of her body. 

It’s exactly what you were reading, Brother Richie, was that we’re going to try and do all of these things to look a certain way, but aside from being healthy, both mind body and your diet, if this is how God made you, that’s how God made you. We’re all going to have different genetics and we’re all going to respond differently to different lifestyles.

Brother Richie: That’s really interesting, that when they did scientifically research and say that “you’re more prone to have this much body fat,” that just goes to show that we’re all unique, that we all have our differences and try to make ourselves all look the same would not be natural. 

The one thing that we do want to do, all of us want to do, is to make sure that we are living the right way. We are living the way that the One that created us planned us to live. That’s where we focus on. Instead of trying to compete in the competition that we made up ourselves, just focus on what God instructs, what He intends.

Martin: I’d like to bring the topic of the keto diet at least once and I want to purpose this talking point. I know some of you might be smiling. Some of you might have done it or doing it. Some of you might not be doing it but I want to preface this by saying we’re not here to say it’s wrong or this right or that if you’re doing it you’re doing it wrong or if you’re doing it you’re doing it right. 

I’d like to get just to the panel reaction. I’ll start with Lauren. What are some of the things that you’ve heard about the diet? How does it differ from other diets? What are some of the you know positive things and maybe some things that maybe not a lot of people know about?

Lauren: I hope I don’t offend anyone. It’s kind of ironic, only because what I studied in school, and you can even ask other nutrition students, we don’t want people going on the keto diet just because the keto diet comes from the word ketosis. I’m sure those who have done keto diet know what that word means and it doesn’t even mention it in our textbooks. Our textbooks will actually say that we don’t want patients or clients, going into ketosis.

Martin: It was meant for those with epilepsy right, like that was what the diet originated from.

Lauren: Yes. And that’s what would help them. Those that do have epileptic seizures. But for the general public in general, the condition I guess we try not to recommend I guess the keto diet, I’m sorry, only because the diet basis itself is to go very low into the carbohydrates. 

I think one of the big things that we learned too, is our brain alone, the brain, what it functions on what it runs on is carbohydrates, as its main source of energy, and it needs at least 35 grams a day to function properly. But I know with the keto diet I’ve heard it said in just one day you can go as low as like 20 which is lower than what your brain needs so I guess from a nutrition standpoint, at least from what we learned, it’s crazy how like diets even come up like fad diets and all that kind of stuff. It’s funny because even though we say, keto diet or like all those diets, one thing is that we’re not saying that it doesn’t work, and it might actually work, people might lose weight fast, but like what we mentioned earlier with nutrition, we want people to build good choices and build good relationships with food, so that later on, they don’t have any other health problems in the future. That they’ll have a good long term. 

Martin: Dr. Darwin, has it exploded, that particular diet in the UK as much as it has in North America?

Dr. Buyson: I think what’s striking is the huge range of diets that have exploded. The keto diet is pretty big here. Then you’ve got all sorts of other, intermittent fasting, you’ve got the 16 / 8 the 5 / 2 the… all these things. And what strikes me is the length people go to, to look a certain way. I was just talking to a friend and we were just commenting on, people go to the gym primarily to change the way they look, not to become physically healthier.

Martin: Right. And you’d mentioned in our previous conversation that sometimes dieting will lead to extreme dieting or certain types of either binge dieting or binge working out. Can you kind of talk to us about these extremes that some of these types of ways of life can maybe lead to? 

Dr. Buyson: It’s probably useful to kind of contextualize some of the reasons why people have such an unhealthy relationship with food. Certainly what I’ve come across is people who find it difficult to have positive thoughts and feelings about their bodies usually have come from some sort of traumatic or really negative experience as a result of their bodies. You often hear people being bullied and victimized by the way look. So in such cases, fear is what their drive to maintain a particular body image. So if you’ve experienced receiving treatment or even being bullied because of your body, it becomes a matter of life and death to look a certain way. I’m sure you’ve come across in the gym. People who are there, you always see them there.

Martin: So there’s actually a thing of going to the gym, too much?

Dr. Buyson: Oh absolutely. You’ve got people who obsessively exercise, who eat, feel guilty or threatened, and they will try to exercise those calories away. Some people smoke specifically to, kind of, maximize their weight loss and minimize their weight gain and of course we’ve got the big topic of the use of anabolic steroids to maintain a particular body image, in spite of knowing the potential risk to our physical health. 

Martin: Definitely. I just want to put some more context for Brother Darwin. 50% of girls, 25% of boys, think that their peers have body image problems. Between 1/3 – 1/2 of young girls fear becoming fat and engage in dieting or binge eating. Girls as young as five-years-old are worried about how they look, like what Alison was referencing earlier. In terms of the difference in sizes of clothes, one in four seven- year-old girls have tried to lose weight at least once. 1/3 of young boys aged 8 to 12 are dieting to lose weight. Evidence shows that they’re pursuing activities of, like what Dr. Darwin said, “obsessive exercise, smoking to manage weight, obsessive dieting and the use of anabolic steroids.” Has this been going on for a while now, Dr. Darwin?

Dr. Buyson: As Brother Richie mentioned the huge influx of the media, it’s highlighting the length people go to, to maintain a certain body image. And it was quite sad is that we’re all striving to reach the unattainable. But we’re overlooking our positive qualities. We’re looking at the things that actually will make our lives worth living or more meaningful. We’re just focused on the show.

Martin: Alison, you’re shaking your head when Lauren was talking about diets and smiling a little bit. Can you tell us a little bit about why and what in some of your personal experiences with regards to changing up the way that you eat and maybe your lifestyle. 

Alison: I was just totally honestly I was agreeing with her, because I did the keto diet it did work for me. And it was probably the only thing that really over the years especially, like with sports and everything, I really tried my hardest to whatever I could to be healthy, to get in shape, for volleyball season or whatever it was. And I’ll never get it. And finally I did keto and it actually worked for me after so many years of trying. It was the only one that worked for me. But I understand what she was saying. If you read up on it, it’s a pretty skeptical diet. Why consume all this fat that will, raise your cholesterol and and all these other bad side effects? If anything, I don’t do keto anymore but if anything that diet, what I got out of it was definitely self discipline, because I thought I didn’t have a great relationship with food. 

Carbs were always my enemy, because I love them so much. Many times I thought they were like my best friend. And then other times that we think they were my enemy and I didn’t want to eat them anymore and I just felt so guilty every time I would eat it. That’s when I really developed “wow, it, maybe my relationship with food isn’t great.” 

It was also because when my skin would be really really bad dermatologists would tell me “maybe it’s your diet, it could be the carbs that you’re eating because of all the sugars and all this stuff.” I was like, “You know what? I’m not going to deal with carbs” for the purpose of my weight, but also my acne. 

When I did the keto diet my skin was super clear, I lost weight almost instantly. It allowed me to love food to an extent to where it wasn’t dangerous for me, but to where I could appreciate it more later on. Trust me, after I did keto over like how months, carbs are the love of my life.

Martin: Right into that brioche donut.

Alison: Right.

Martin: I want to give the final word to Brother Richie before we move on from this topic of diet. But I do want to hear from June because we haven’t heard his backstory as to what prompted him to change his diet. Did you do keto or what exactly did you do to lose all of that weight and what kind of made you feel like “Man, I need to change the way I look?”

Jun: For me personally, I didn’t do keto or any “specific diet”. So growing up I had been pretty heavyset and as I mentioned earlier, I don’t think I really acknowledged that there was a problem with my health. But I did realize that I didn’t like how I looked in pictures or anything or I would come up with, like coping mechanisms. 

I tried to hide in the back of pictures or I tried to minimize how much space I was taking up because I was very self conscious. Especially as a male, there’s that expectation. Especially in adolescence, you’re strong or everyone’s competing like “Oh how strong am I?” or “How do I look?” and I did not match what that typical expectation was. 

Instead of confronting those feelings I guess I denied that there was an issue and I just continued what I was doing, blissfully unaware, I guess. And then it got to the point where I got tired of feeling tired all the time. My best friend he’d always encouraged me to try and improve my health and make lifestyle changes, but I didn’t seriously consider it until 2018, around last year when I thought to myself like “Okay, I don’t, I don’t like how I looked and need I really need to do something about this.” 

So he gave me some primers on how and what to eat. I didn’t realize that I was like eating so much more food than I needed. And he also got me into working out and exercising regularly. So he helped me structure some workouts and get used to going to the gym. And it just continued from there.

Martin: When you said you were tired of being tired, can you walk us through what that was like? What were you doing where you’re just like, “Man, why am I so tired all of a sudden?”

Jun: Yeah. I wouldn’t do anything strenuous or anything that required a lot of exertion of energy. But I realized that I didn’t have much energy to begin with.

Martin: Right, right. Brother Richie he said, his whole life he’s always been pretty heavy set. When you saw the change in your cousin, that “Oh man, this guy’s dropped a lot of weight. He’s looking great.” What did you think? 

Brother Richie: “Wow.” No seriously. It was great. What I liked was, he didn’t like the way that he looked. It’s not that somebody was telling him this or that. He’s the one that didn’t like how he looked and he did something about it. And what’s important is what you do about it, number one, you have to be more aware. Learn about it. If you want to change “What is it that I have to do to change?” 

We mentioned diets. There’s a lot of people that they want instant results. So if someone tells them something they’ll do it, not really knowing what is it going to do. You mentioned the keto diet and it’s hard for us to preach, anything that’s not in the Bible. So it’s hard for us to preach the keto diet. It’s hard for us to preach “Don’t do the keto diet.” What is something that we know very well, is that we have to be self controlled. 

There might be people that benefit from the keto diet. There might be some people that don’t benefit from the keto diet. And that’s why we said, everyone is unique. Everyone is an individual. That’s why everyone has to do what they can to see how they can better their own situation. If we’re talking about the way we feel the way we think, psychologically about the image, what June mentioned also is working out, training. Is that something that we can preach? Is that something that we can say physically, one should physically train or exercise? Allow me to read will reference what’s recorded in First Timothy, chapter 4 will read verse 8. It says: 

For physical training is of some value.

[1 Timothy 4:8 New International Version]

Brother Richie: So, yes, we can actually say physical training is good for you, if you want to stay healthy, if you want to stay strong. But we know how the physical body works, it will not get stronger if it has no reason to. If you don’t exert any stress or any sort of tension, it has no reason to get stronger. If you want it to get stronger it says well then you do some physical training. Now if you’re going to do physical training that is effective, what does the Bible teach us? We’ll read here in 1 Corinthians 9:25 it says:

Now every athlete who [goes into training and competes in the game] is disciplined and exercises self-control in all things. 

[1 Corinthians 9:25 Amplified version] 

Brother Richie: That is something that across the board, everyone, can benefit from. So, in everything we should be self controlled. We should be disciplined. When it comes to our food, we should be self controlled and disciplined. When it comes to our physical fitness, we should do the same. We should make sure that our whole being is free from fault. 

Now, many of the problems come about because as we’ve mentioned, throughout our discussion, there are things that people come up with on their own. They have a competition. They want to look a certain way. And you can see losing control can go on the two different extremes. One doesn’t have the right diet or exercise, or they go too far the other way, and they get obsessed with those things. What is it that we can use as a guide that comes from the Bible? We’ll read Galatians 5:19 and then I believe in 21. It says: 

It’s obvious what kind of life develops out of trying to get your own way all the time:…” Right, so it’s just a way that you come up with and then you’re just going to just going to want that way it says “uncontrolled, and uncontrollable addictions, might even lead into addictions, or the parodies of community, I could go on. This isn’t the first time I have warned you, you know,” and this is even the worst because Apostle Paul is actually giving this warning, he said, “if you use your freedom. This way you will not inherit God’s kingdom.

[Galatians 5:19, 21 The Message]

Brother Richie: That is the worst of all. So we need to make sure we are at the very basic lesson that we can learn. Be self controlled in what we do. We want to have that good feeling about ourselves about the image that we have? Be self controlled. Be disciplined in every aspect of our life, not only physically but even mental health, spiritual health, physical health. And if that is how we’re going to live, then that is how we’re going to be happy, knowing and understanding that that is the way that God has instructed us to be.

Martin: Now Brother Richie, an element of that too is finding time. And I don’t know if there’s any profession really that’s more time consuming or more important really than being a minister of the gospel but you find time to do these things. Is there any tips for our listeners? If you may have a schedule that’s super busy you may have nine different jobs you have to go to school all that stuff. But how are you able to find time to not only you know take care of your body but also your diet in the way that you live your life?

Brother Richie: When we all understand these things, it’s something that we do not just for a short period of time. It’s not something that we do for a while until we get a result. And then if we let go, then we’ll find ourselves back where we were in the first place. It actually just becomes a lifestyle, being self controlled being disciplined, making sure that we are aware of what we’re putting in our body how we use our body, are we, like naturally tend on thinking and making sure that we are controlled that way? Then it really just becomes not something that you’re fitting into your schedule, it’s something that just becomes part of your life. 

And that’s what we hope for anyone that is listening that get something from what they’re hearing. It’s hard because we don’t know everybody’s situation. So we can’t give very specific details you should eat this or you should work out like this but what we can do is say for everyone “Just careful, make sure that you are living that life free from fault.” But really the best way to learn those instructions is learn more about what is actually written in the Bible.

Martin: Definitely. I think that’s a very important point. I just want to go to Dr. Darwin before we close is that you know people who are listening who are not members of the Church Of Christ yet that might think “yeah definitely what Lauren was talking about about nutrition makes perfect sense, what we’re talking about about mental health and awareness and certain relationships that we have with ourselves and food yeah that makes a lot of sense.” 

I was doing some studies, or reading some studies doing some research before we did this podcast and another thing that a lot of experts pointed to was positive affirmations and mindfulness and how that type of relationship with oneself, that could be definitely linked to a type of spiritual way of life has really strong, positive effects on someone’s way of life, not only on their body image but how they perceive themselves and how they take care of themselves. 

When you hear Brother Richie reading those verses that perfectly kind of wrote a narrative to how we address mind, body and soul of how we should live our life, as a doctor and a professional in psychology, what role, the important role, what role does spirituality in that mindfulness play in having a positive body image and way of life?

Dr. Buyson: I think, just repeating again what Brother Richie mentioned about the theme that cuts across this whole discussion about awareness. When you think about mindfulness. The main theme of mindfulness is to be aware, and to be aware in the present moment of you know what you’re thinking, what you’re feeling, and to, just to question what it is that you’re doing and to kind of evaluate yourself. 

The only way really you can make a good choice is by being aware of what’s going on around you. And I think from there you can take action to change things. But without that awareness you you’re lost.

Martin: And that combination of mindfulness and awareness, but also a foundation in the Scripture. We’re so very thankful that everybody joined us on this panel. Brother Richie, the Church is continually tackling some of these topics that the world we know is trying to face these challenges depression. Now we’re talking about mental health and with regards to our body image. What does that say about the Church knowing that, whether you’re a member of the Church Of Christ or not these kind of programs these kind of platforms; what is our purpose? What exactly are we trying to do?

Brother Richie: Well first of all, it helps everyone that might know us that the way that we live, really, is by following what’s written in the Bible. For those that don’t know us, but they are struggling with certain problems, we also want to share that the solutions to those problems. And there are people that struggle with problems and they’ve tried everything. 

Well, the solution really is learning, being aware, being mindful of how you were intended to live. So if you get that, if you’re able to learn from the One that created us, and then you follow those instructions, the changes, sometimes people will describe them as miraculous. 

So we want to just share that we’re not, we can’t force anyone to believe anything or accept anything but we do want to share what our beliefs are and how we’re able to overcome the challenges that everybody is facing.

Martin: We want to thank everybody for joining us. Thank you Dr. Darwin, to Lauren, to Alison, and Jun and of course very special thanks to Brother Richie. And of course all of our listeners. Please follow us on our Instagram at INCmedianews #heartandsoulconversations to stay up to date. A lot of how we write our episodes and how we kind of get a feel for what our audience is going through is through our social media. That’s how we’re able to engage and interact with all of you. 

So that’s it from us today. We hope that you were able to learn something from us from what we were able to share. I hope we were able to help and I hope that you’ll join us next time on Heart & Soul. Take care. And don’t forget to subscribe to Heart & Soul available now on iTunes and Google Podcasts.

Finding Balance In Life

[Music]

Martin Zerrudo: You’re just trying to get through the day. You’re barely able to keep up, keep everything together — work, school, friends, life, love, sleep. How do you get everything done? Where do you find the time? What about your friends? What about you? How are you supposed to balance life? It’s a question every young person faces day in, day out, as they struggle to find success. And what does success even mean anymore if in the pursuit you’ve given up so much? The world wants to take all of your time and all of your energy, and you have only so much to give, that at the end of the day, you feel like there’s nothing left for you. So, now, what? When the light at the end of the tunnel of finding of some form of stability and balance seems to get further and further away, dimmer and dimmer, what do you do? Where do you go? Well, there may be hope yet. And we’re here to talk about it. So, let’s have a Heart and Soul conversation. 

[Show open] 

Martin: You’re listening to Heart and Soul, a podcast from the Iglesia Ni Cristo, Church of Christ. I’m your host, Martin Zerrudo, and I’ll be interviewing young adults from across the world, who are living Christian lives, but are also dealing with real-world problems. This is Heart and Soul. 

Welcome to Heart and Soul. Our guest for today is Phillip Secondez. Phillip is from New York. He’s 26 years old, and is in school, studying full-time to become a Physical Therapist. He’s also very active in his personal fitness, often going to the gym, and very active in his faith, holding multiple responsibilities at Church. He also happens to be in a very happy relationship, if he didn’t have enough on his plate already. How’s it going, Phillip? 

Phillip: How’s it going, bro? I’m trying.  

Martin: Thanks so much for being here. Are you excited? 

Phillip: Very! 

Martin: Have you ever recorded a podcast before?

Phillip: This is going to be my first. 

Martin: Awesome. Me too [laughs]. And our second guest is Shannon Santamaria, calling in from Hawaii. She’s 22, and was in school full-time, until she recently graduated with an AA (Associate of Arts) Degree. She’s working full-time at our very own INC Media Services as an editor and host. She is currently single, and is committed to multiple responsibilities at Church. Aloha, Shannon! 

Shannon: Aloha, Martin! 

Martin: How are you? 

Shannon: I’m doing good. It’s always nice to be here.  

Martin: Awesome. And we also have, joining us today, minister of the gospel, Brother Richie Juatco, husband and advocate of eating healthy, and staying fit both in mind, body, and spirit. Hello, Brother Richie, how are you? 

Brother Richie Juatco: How are you, Martin? Thank you so much for inviting me on this episode. 

Martin: All right, the topic of our episode is finding the balance, the success in the struggle. Now, we’re going to jump right in to our first article, and I’d like to get your thoughts, Phillip and Shannon, on this article. 

From the Boston Globe—“The millennial generation, the first to grow up with smartphones in their hands, is often stereotyped as lazy and entitled. But workplace experts actually say that they’re more commonly known as workaholics…among the 19-35 year olds, perhaps more so than the previous generations. And in an online study, more than 4 in 10 millennials consider themselves ‘work martyrs’—dedicated, indispensable, and racked with guilt every time they ask for some time off. And what’s more—nearly half of millennials want to be seen that way.” Phillip…Shannon… thoughts? 

Phillip: I think that the first statement you made about the millennial generation being stereotyped as lazy or entitled… I think it’s hard first off to make generalized statements in terms of generational gaps like that. There’s definitely lots of factors that play into that such as economic background, familial upbringing, social interactions… but I think it’s very individualistic. I think that the reason why 4 in 10 millennials consider themselves workaholics is because they don’t really have any other option. I think I was listening to this podcast the other day, where they’re talking about the majority of the money in the U.S. right now lies within the baby boomer generation. I feel like we have a higher mountain to climb versus these older generations. I think that’s where this hard-working mentality kind of comes from in our generation. 

Martin: Right. It’s like, “Hey go out and get a job, except your dad and your grandfather still have those jobs.” So…

Phillip: Exactly. There’s just less capital for us. 

Martin: Shannon?

Shannon: I totally agree with Phillip. Everyone has their own circumstances when it comes to socio-economics. Your lifestyle and how you go about achieving those, overcoming those challenges. But I think what a lot of the stereotypes, or how we’re supposedly stereotyped, is because of the amount of materialistic things we have now. I feel like the more we attain, the harder we have to work. And even a lot of the times, we have to help our families with that. I don’t think a lot of that are foreseen, or all of those factors are foreseen. So, being dedicated and devoting your time in work has actually become a lifestyle. I mean, if you’re considered someone who just stays at home, you kind of get a negative connotation, towards it… 

Martin: Right, right. 

Shannon: You just stay at home, you don’t have a job…

Martin: So, it’s true, you get guilted. Look at them, they’re out there, working 10 hours a day, and you’re at home. 

Shannon: Yes, I feel like that’s the common belief, like a lot of young workers in our working society have right now. And even in a lot of cultures, and the media that you see today, you see movies where, “Oh, he’s 30 and he’s not working. He’s at home with his parents.” There’s definitely a negative connotation. 

Martin: They haven’t moved out at 18, and they’re not living on their own, and working three jobs— 

Phillip: There’s a bunch of social expectations, you know? 

Martin: Right, right. Do you guys feel like growing up, in your twenties, when you got your first real job… Did you feel like, “I have to be seen as somebody who’s always working all the time? The martyr who’s always taking the extra shift, who’s doing the overtime, who’s ready to say yes to whatever the boss wants?” 

Shannon: I definitely feel like, even at a younger age… I went to a school that was very well-privileged, so everyone at that school was very well off. And at a young age, I already felt the social pressures with that, where I felt like I had to have this financial means to be able to sustain that materialistic lifestyle. And it’s funny that you say that, actually, because with attaining and working harder, sometimes you’re just so focused on making that money or just devoting yourself to that job because you feel like it’s the only option you have—fitting in with the social culture of this world.   

Martin: Where did you grow up, Shannon?

Shannon: I grew up in San Diego…  

Martin: San Diego…

Shannon: …California…

Martin: Right. 

Shannon: I went to Olympian High School, so there were a lot of students who got Mercedes for their 16th or 18th birthday. And I felt like I had to compete with that. 

Martin: Phillip, where did you grow up? 

Phillip: I was born and raised in San Francisco, California. 

Martin: There you go. Similar to Shannon?

Phillip:  Yeah, very similar. I mean, I don’t know how many of our listeners have been to San Francisco, but it’s been like one of the up-and-coming cities, very expensive to live in. The cost of living is extremely high. I think, I just saw the other day, it’s almost $4 for a gallon of gas. 

Martin: Wow. 

Phillip: But, definitely, right up that same alley as Shannon, I was fortunate enough to live in a family with parents who supported me throughout all of my schooling. But I think most of the social pressure, or the pressure to work, is rooted into how hard they work, and to try and emulate how hard they work, and the example they set for me. So, I definitely could have gotten by without working, but just to instill that hard-working mentality for myself, I set out to get a job when I started college. 

Martin: Oh I see. And, Brother Richie, first of all, where did you grow up and did you have similar social pressures to get into the workforce and start climbing the career ladder as early as possible? 

Brother Richie: I grew up in the L.A. area. You know, every time I hear “millennials” or “millennial generation,” sometimes, as all three of you mentioned, sometimes it generalizes because maybe it’s not just those in that age. I think times have changed. 

Martin: Right. 

Brother Richie: So, technology is different… and, definitely, definitions of certain things change as well. Technology, as time goes on, normally, technology is used to help people, to make things more convenient. We’re able to connect with each other. We’re able to do certain things that we don’t have to manually do anymore. So, when it comes to work, or being a workaholic, sometimes that would be different from what 20-30 years ago—what a workaholic is, how much a person puts into their craft. The one thing that I do know, whatever generation, whatever age someone is, when it comes to work, we know that work is something we do not only do because we have to. It’s an instruction. God commands us to work for what we need, but there’s something that we should also understand. When it comes to everything that we need to do, when it comes to our different responsibilities, we can balance everything needed—and the reason why we say that is because that’s what is recorded in the Bible. 

And, in fact, I’ll quote what’s written here in Ecclesiastes 3:1. It says: 

For everything, there is an appointed season and there’s a proper time for every project under heaven.

[Ecclesiastes 3:1]

Brother Richie: So, we have time to do everything we have to do. It’s just it’s a challenge to make sure everything fits and everything balances. 

Martin: Definitely, and I think it was a great point that you mentioned earlier, Brother Richie, in terms of technology. I remember when I was 17 or 18, I was working retail, I loved it. I was at the mall, you’re working with your friends, discount on clothes, and whenever the Regional Manager would come in, you make sure the store looks great, they would come in and they would have this thing that was tied to their belt, and it was a small black device and she was clicking away, and I’m like, “Is that a—that’s not a cell phone?” But it has a keyboard and everything. And I asked my buddy, “What does she have?” And he’s like, “Oh, that’s a Blackberry.” And I instantly associated that somebody who had advanced in life, and who was in a position of power, and who was always working and was successful has this device. “Oh they’re emailing? And they can check the Internet and everything on this one device?” And I was enamored by this technology that allowed you to stay connected. 

And exactly to Brother Richie’s point, as you got older, you kind of realized that this technology, while it made it easier to communicate, it actually added more workload. You’re so accessible, and you have more access to so many things from the workplace that’s beyond the 9-5 traditional work hours, that you’re actually doing more work instead of balancing it out with other things, with more important things. 

I think there was a law somewhere in Europe where they banned emails. You can’t check your phone after 5 o’clock or something. It was one of the countries in Europe because they knew that if you’re always going to be on your phone, then you’re, technically, always working, which is pretty awful. 

So, it’s not just the Boston Globe. According to Buzzfeed, millennials or young people have now become what is known as “the burnout generation.” And I saw this on the news the other day that the World Health Organization actually classifies burnout as a medical thing. 

Maybe, Phillip, you can talk a little more about that, but the reason why we, as young people, have burnout is because we face more difficult an uphill climb socio-economically than past generations. So, this is what the article goes on to say: “Financially-speaking, most of us lag far behind where our parents were when they were our age. We have far less saved, far less equity, far less stability, and far, far more student debt—” which is something I’d like to touch on. 

“As American businesses become more efficient, better at turning a profit around… and the next generation needed to be positioned to compete, we couldn’t just show up with a diploma and expect to get a job that would allow us to retire at 55. In a marked shift from the generation before, millennials needed to optimize ourselves to be better or the very best workers possible.”

So, Shannon, Phillip, your thoughts on burnout? Have you ever experienced that before, where you just kept pushing and pushing and pushing ‘cause you felt like you had to meet those socio-economic expectations?

Shannon: Actually, I started living on my own—with my own rent—at a very young age. So, at 18 or 19 already, I was trying to pay off rent and working three jobs, just to maintain the cost of living in San Diego. It was actually really expensive, and even though my mom was living with me, she actually really, really needed help. We both needed to work together to be able to afford the place that we were staying [in]. So, there were times when I would go to school from 7 a.m. to 4 p.m., then go to work, 5 p.m. to 10 p.m., then have to go to another shift from midnight to 7 a.m. , then catch school the next day. 

Martin: Wait, when did you sleep? (laughs) 

Shannon: Exactly! I didn’t get to sleep. That was my problem—I didn’t have time to rest and take care of myself. 

Martin: That’s brutal. 2-3 jobs plus school, plus your responsibilities at church, plus paying for rent. How old were you at the time?

Shannon: I was 19, actually. So only a couple of years ago, before I moved to Hawaii, that happened. And a lot of my friends started getting really concerned because I just felt like I had to be the one to take care of my family as well. I had to be this independent person where I can’t really ask for help because I want to be the one to give the help. 

Martin: So, it’s like, you were experiencing burnout, but you just refused to acknowledge it or admit it. 

Shannon: Exactly.

Martin: Phillip, what about you?

Phillip: So, ironically, I feel that I experienced more burnout prior to starting this doctorate program. 

Martin: Oh wow— 

Phillip: Yeah [laughs]. And I think it’s because I kind of came into the game a little smarter. I gained a little bit more insight from other classmates, or other students who are already in the program ahead of me. A lot of what they said was to find time for yourself, and make sure that you have a life outside of school. But, I definitely experienced burnout. And a lot of that was, signing up for all the programs that I was, you know, trying to get interviews at. So, at one point, I had two jobs. I was volunteering plus all my duties at church. And then plus all of the pre-requisite courses. So, it definitely piles up. But, like I said, ironically, after I started the program at NYT, I took a step back and gave myself more time outside of school. I prioritized that time for myself. 

Martin: Right. What were some of those cautionary tales that your friends who were a couple of years ahead of you [told you]? Like, “Hey, if you don’t find time for yourself, this is what’s going to happen.” What were they telling you?

Phillip: Actually, I have a story. He was a kid in my actual class. I think we were maybe one week into Anatomy. He actually just ended up dropping out of my program, and we weren’t even one week into the class. It was Intro to Anatomy, and I think the reason why he ended up dropping it was because,  one, this was our first exposure to a doctorate-level course, and then, two, just the way that the program is set up. It’s a summer session, so everything is sped up. So, what we would learn in three months, we’re learning in a month and a half. And, so, I guess he wasn’t ready for that. He didn’t mentally prepare himself, and he didn’t take the precautionary measures. And, unfortunately, he ended up dropping out of the program. 

Martin: Wow. Can’t get that money back, eh? 

Phillip: No, definitely not. 

Martin: That’s brutal. I know, for myself, funny you mention the summer school. So, I was in my mid-20s, and we had just started volunteering and helping out a lot with INC Media, which is the media branch of the Church Of Christ. And we were able to really find ways in creating content and filming things for the Church. 

I was at some dead-end job, but I said, “That’s fine. The job pays for my bills, but I do want to go back to school?” I finished a degree in Paralegal law, but I wanted to take another degree in Communications and Marketing, because in my head, I thought, whatever happens I’m going to want to keep helping out in INC Media, so I need to be educated in the things that I want to help out with, so that at least I have some sort of educational background. And at the same time that I got accepted into that course, the school told me, ”Unfortunately, your government funding was denied. You’re not going to be able to take that summer course,” and all that stuff. And I didn’t want to wait—I said, well I’m helping out the Church now. I need to learn now, so I want to do it now. And they said, “Well, you can try to get a job, but you can’t do both. You can’t get a full-time job, and then go to school full-time, especially in a summer semester where everything is condensed.” It’s a semester put into a month or two months. So, that was brutal. But I said, “You know what, I’m gonna do it. I gotta give this a shot.” So, I actually got a job, full-time—the job was 9-5 and the classes were during the day. So I went to every single professor, and I said, “I already paid for all of my classes, or I’m in the process of paying for them.  If I just hand in the assignments and go to the mid-term and the final, is it okay if I miss all of the tutorials? You know, I’ll eat the participation percentage that you’re supposed to have in those tutorials, and if I submit everything that I’m supposed to submit, can I just do this?” And they asked, “Why would you do that?” I’m like, “Because I just need to graduate. I’ll figure it out.” They’re like, “So you’re going to teach yourself?” I said, “I’ll figure it out.” It was so important to me that I complete that portion of it and still be able to pay for it. I didn’t want to wait. 

So, I remember, I would go to my new job in training. And I was passing out. She was explaining to me the process of my job—I have this sheet. I’m writing with my pen, and then my pen would slowly trail off the piece of paper, and I’m dozing off. And I’m like, “Oh man, did she realize that I was falling asleep as she’s explaining to me my new job?” And then, later on, they did a review, and they’re like, “Okay, great, you finished your training session.” And then at the bottom it says, “Martin exhibited signs of sleepiness and was falling asleep during training.” I was like, “Oh no.” But it worked out. It worked out. I stayed in my job and I was able to complete the course. I was able to graduate with that Bachelor’s Degree in Communications. But it doesn’t always have to be that way. You know, there are people out there who are like, “Oh well, Phillip was able to figure it out…and Martin and Shannon.” 

Brother Richie, you know, does it always have to be that way? Does everybody have to throw themselves in it, and be like, “Oh, I’ll figure it out, and if I have to not sleep and if I have to burn out, then I have to burn out.” Is that really the best way to do it? 

Brother Richie: There are times when we do get burned out. But as we’re discussing how to balance everything, everybody has so many responsibilities that they’re trying to cram together… 

Martin: That’s true.

Brother Richie:  And there’s really only so much that we can do. There’s only X amount of time—There’s only 24 hours in the day, so there’s only so much we can do. Phillip mentioned you have to prioritize. If you can’t do everything, what are the important things that you have to get to. So if you are going to get burned out—there are some that they do get burned out because that’s the only choice that they have, or there are some that do get burned out because that’s a choice they made.  That’s the situation that they made for themselves. To make sure that we are balanced—the ambition that we have, the life that we want—there’s always guidelines on how to achieve that. We read earlier that there’s a proper time for everything. Allow me to read this in I Thessalonians 4:11. The advice coming from the Bible, it says: 

Try your best to live quietly. Mind your own business and to work hard just as we taught you to do. 

[I Thessalonians 4:11]

There’s advice for us, so that the life that we have, we will be able to get to everything that we need. It says, try our best to live quietly, live a humble life. We don’t need everything that we see, because we will get burned out if we’re everywhere, or we need everything. There are some times when we may see others—what they do, what they have, and that’s also a desire that we have as well. But the Bible says, make sure that we mind our own business; we live quietly. And this is something that—it might be just a generalization—this is something that people don’t want to do, that’s why technology is helping that. They don’t want to work hard  when it starts to become difficult—some people aren’t used to that. Have you guys heard of the term, “work smarter, not harder.” That’s not half bad, because it’s only half true. You know, work smarter—great—but we cannot not work hard. 

Martin: Right. 

Brother Richie: We have to work hard because that’s the biblical truth, that we should work hard. So when it does become difficult, we keep going, we endure, we plow through, but we make sure that what we’re working hard at is not something that we shouldn’t put our focus in. We have our desires, we have our ambition—we keep mentioning technology because that was the first article that we heard—

Martin: Right. 

Phillip: Right. 

Brother Richie: Many might not want to miss out on the latest thing. I think there’s a term for that, right? 

Martin: FOMO. Fear of…

Brother Richie: Fear of missing out. So they want to be everywhere? You will get burned out that way. Technology is fine. It’s not wrong, but we have to use it properly. In fact, one more comes to mind that can help us. Here in I Corinthians 7:31. Those things that are being developed, that is being used by the world, the Bible says—

Those who use the things of the world should not become all wrapped up in them. The world as it is now, exists, is passing away. 

[1 Corinthians 7:31]

So, that’s good advice for us to know. Live simply. Do our best to prioritize, and when we do burn out, it’s not because we boxed ourselves in a situation where we have no other choice. We do our best to handle everything. Just like what was mentioned earlier, we really prioritize. 

Martin: Right. Is it safe to say also, in that earlier verse [where it says], try to live quietly—to not always have to complain about every single challenge or roadblock along the way? Because what I remember in almost all of my jobs, trying to progress in my career in the past and in school, sometimes you have to put your head down and do the work. You just have to grin and bear it and get through it. 

Brother Richie: Yeah. 

Martin: There’s no such thing as a workplace or situation in life where there are no challenges or struggles. So, to complain about every single thing and say, it’s never going to work out, I’m burning out, I have no time—but are you spending more time, more energy complaining or actually getting the work done? Is there something to that as well?

Brother Richie: Yes, definitely. If you’re going to do your best to live quietly right? You live a humble life.

Martin: Right.

Brother Richie: It’s not something where, if it’s not exactly how you want it, then something’s wrong. Whose fault is it? No. We always deal with what we have. It’s says work hard, and difficulties–that’s part of life. That is actually part of everyday life. So, it’s something that we should be accustomed to,  should get used to. Maybe that might be the generational difference, right? Because, like we said, Millennial generation, it’s not that they are a certain way and no one else is that way. It’s just because of the times now, but there are those that lived in a time where maybe some of the conveniences weren’t around, so they did get used to things being not as convenient as it is now. And maybe, just maybe, that might be the gap where one is used to it being a certain way. Then, when it’s gone, they’re not used to it being that inconvenient.

Martin: Definitely. And I think a lot of people struggle with that, which brings us to another article from theblissfulmind.com, and it points to five reasons why some people kind of struggle with “Is this where my life should be? It’s not as convenient as I want it to be. How do I balance all of it?” And here are the five things that they state as the reason why you’re having a hard time. One, you haven’t defined what balance truly means to you. Two, you haven’t been practicing self-discipline. Three, you aren’t being consistent with your actions. Four, you don’t plan out your weekly schedule. And, five, you aren’t taking proper care of yourself. So, a lot of the things that we’ve already talked about, and definitely a lot of the things that the Bible verses have covered address a lot of these things. But, for Philip and Shannon, different career paths. What does balance mean to you guys, and how do you practice that self-discipline to make sure that you maintain that balance?

Phillip: So, I think that, just kind of first on your list, I think that you need to establish what is most important to you, understanding what your priorities are, and allotting enough time for those priorities. So, for us, it’s going to be Church, first and foremost. Our duties, and then it’s going to be school or work, what have you. And, if you have time, social interactions, and always make time for self-care. So, I think finding a balance where all of those things are met is what balance means to me. Brother Richie was talking about technology, and a lot of those needs can be delegated through technology. So, making use of technology with that I think could help. 20 years ago, if you wanted to hang out with friends, the only way you could really do it was you’d have to actually meet up in person. But now you can easily FaceTime or text,  so I think that’s one way you can save time and fill that social interaction need, and set aside time for yourself. Even with TV, you would have to wait a certain time to watch a certain show, but now Netflix or HBO Go, or whatever, it is just so much more accessible.

Martin: It’s on demand.

Phillip: You can watch it on your own time. Exactly. So just utilizing technology in that way, and not abusing it, and setting aside time for what is really important for you, I think that’s how you can kind of find balance in life.

Martin: And, Shannon, having graduated and being able to work full time, what have you learned in finding that balance, what did that balance mean to you?

Shannon: For me, it was a struggle finding balance at first. But, ultimately,  finding balance, it meant that my spiritual, my physical, and my mental state, my mental health was in line with each other. It was coherent. One wasn’t overpowering. I can plan out my whole day, but if that day is very stressful, I also understand that I need to take time away to make sure that my mental and my spiritual health isn’t going to be hindered or taken down from that busy schedule. And, of course, planning everything out. When it comes to balancing, I need to make sure I’m knowing my priorities. Knowing my priorities when it comes to balancing things is vital in knowing how much time you should spend towards something, and to limit yourself. Like everyone says, you just need to go full on, full force into it, and then you’ll get there. But it also comes with being able to learn when to stop, when to take a breather, when to understand that, okay, you’ve done enough, and you need to move onto something else. Sometimes you just need to focus on something else and then come back to your work. And being consistent with that mentality, that okay I’m working towards this. I’m making sure that all of these things are prioritized, and of course when it comes to meeting those deadlines. But also understanding that, okay, once I meet those deadlines, make sure that I can also focus on the other things that I’ve set for myself. And I know that lately I’ve been seeing on social media, actually, a lot of women, a lot of millennials these days, I know that you guys have social media, where they’re all about “you know you need to take self-care, you need to take care of yourself.” Of course, that’s very important, but I feel like social media and the society, the amount of importance they put on self-care can get carried away. It’s important to take care of yourself, of course, I’m not saying to not take care of yourself. But there comes a point where you’re so focused on taking care of yourself that you’re not focused on the other priorities you have in life. There’s a lot of women who, okay, I need to take care of myself, and then it comes back, biting them in the back in the butt. Where, okay, I’m going to do retail therapy, or I’m going to get a message, I’m going to get a facial.  

Martin: Oh I see I see.

Brother Richie: Retail therapy. That’s the first time I’ve heard that.

Martin: Guilty. Sorry.

Shannon: Also, understanding that there is a certain point where you take care of yourself, and taking care of yourself isn’t just your physical needs, but your spiritual and mental needs too. And that taking care of yourself shouldn’t be an excuse to not completing your work.

Martin: Great segue. It’s not just self-care in the material aspect. You don’t have to go out there, have some sort of commodity as a means of finding relief to the stresses in life. And that self-care always has to be associated with a monetary purchase of some sort of material good, right? So interesting to note because people who are listening right now might be thinking, “Hold on I’m in my 20’s, I’m trying to accomplish my goals. The articles earlier in this episode were talking about how we’re burning out. It’s hard to compete. And you’re telling me that your guests are successful because they’re prioritizing their spiritual needs?” Well, interestingly enough, if you go to Pew Research, they have a research study with regards to college students and their faith, and here is what that study yielded: 72% of college graduates believed religion was very important or somewhat important in their lives. 69% would attend a religious service at least once a week, or at least once or twice a month. And 51% would pray at least once during the day. So, Brother Richie, when we hear how Philip and Shannon and most members of the Church Of Christ who are trying to find balance as they try to carve out their own careers in this world, when they find their success and their balance by prioritizing their faith and their commitment to their responsibilities at church, and when we see the statistics that show that faith actually does play a key role in those who are trying to find success, what does that say?

Brother Richie: It’s actually very nice to hear that, with everything that’s happening with Philip and Shannon, they prioritized putting God first, putting their Church duties first, responsibilities when it comes to worshiping God. And it works out for them, that’s not only nice to hear, it’s a proof that what is written in the Bible is actually true. Because that’s the advice that is given because there are so many things that have to get done. Because there are so many worries that everyone has, like everyone is worried about making sure they have what they need. They have food on their table, they have clothes on their backs, they have clothes for their family. When you’re trying to prioritize all that, sometimes to many people, worshipping God, going to worship service, that’s on the back burner. But from what we are able to hear, that’s actually what is prioritized. Why is it that those that do that, they get what they need as well? Why is it that actually proves God’s words are true? Well, this is what is advised to us in Matthew 6:31-33. This is actually what the Lord Jesus Christ himself teaches. He says: 

So don’t worry at all about having enough food or clothing. Why be like the heathen? For they take pride in all these things and they are deeply concerned about them. But your heavenly father already knows perfectly well that you need them, and he will give them to you if you give him first place in your life and live as he wants you to.

[Matthew 6:31-33]

So, the truth of the matter is, if God is the priority, if we want to make sure that we’re living the way that he wants, everything that we need, we’ll get that as well because He will give it to us. In that priority list, if he’s number 1, he’s going to help us with number two, three, four, all the way down the list. That’s why, with all the other ways people can handle the different responsibilities, the stresses that they have, Shannon mentioned there are times it can be stressful, you have to learn, you have how to prioritize. There are those, what was that term that you used?

Shannon: Retail therapy.

Brother Richie: Retail therapy. Okay, I need to feel better. So ,I’m going to go buy some stuff. Is that basically what that is?

Shannon: Yes.

Brother Richie: Okay so there is a lot of people, because it is so easy to get what you want now a days, just like what Philip mentioned right, and that’s actually not bad. He was mentioning Netflix or HBO Go, you don’t have to wait for a show, you can watch it on your own. Technology is fine if you use it the right way. There is another way you can use technology, where it’s basically just what you want all the time, every time. In the article that was mentioned earlier, not having that self discipline, why is that dangerous? This is the danger that’s recorded here in Galatians 5:19, 21. It says:

It’s obvious what kind of life develops out of trying to get your own way all the time. Uncontrolled and uncontrollable addictions, ugly parodies of community, I could go own. This is isn’t the first time I warned you, you know. If you use your freedom this way, you will not inherit God’s kingdom.

[Galatians 5:19, 21]

That’s actually the danger of not being self-disciplined. If one is used to getting their way all the time, the danger is not only just in this life, it says that you’re going to be uncontrollable, and one would not inherit God’s kingdom or be saved on Judgment Day. So, that’s something that we really want to take into account. It’s not just what’s happening, how we can get what we want. It’s really that priority list. Once we have that priority list, once thats squared away, and that’s actually the right priority list, then technology can help. Technology can come in and help us get the right goals that we need. But we really have to be careful that it’s not always what we want, but we’re actually prioritizing as we read earlier, what does God want? And if we always aline ourselves with that, then we’re going to be balanced. We’ll be able to get everything important in our lives that we need to. Once we have our priority list, if we mix up our list, that’s when problems come about. I’ll give you an example. If you say work and family right, which one should go above which?

Martin: Family.

Brother Richie: Family. Right. So, family is prioritized over work. If you put work over family, you’re going to have a problem with your loved ones. It’s your family that comes first. Actually, that’s why you work. Okay, when it comes to work and leisure, which one should be the priority?

Martin: Work.

Brother Richie: Work. Right. If you put leisure over work, you’re going to have a problem. So, God should be number one, right? Under God, is the family that He has given us. Number 3 would be the work that he’s instructing us to do. Four, five, leisure, everything else. But if you mix that list up, you put God under family, you put God under work, you put family under leisure, you will run into problems. But if you can keep that list clear, and you can keep that clear and concise, and everything that you have to do, because we will come to conflicts, that’s just how this life is, there’s going to come a time where we’re going to have to choose. But if we always remember our priority list, the choices that we make will help us moving forward all the time.

Martin: Definitely. And just speaking for myself, the way that you explained it, Brother Richie, I thought was fantastic because when you go down that comparison, they’re all mutually exclusive of one another. Spending time with your family has nothing really necessarily to do with work. Going to work doesn’t have anything necessarily to do with leisure or self-care. But the great thing about prioritizing God and our faith, and making sure that we involve ourselves in the activities at Church, is that my family is there, and that I’m having a great time spending time and volunteering time and worshiping God at church. And for those asking “Well, what does that have to do with work?” For myself, learning and growing as a person reflects directly with the way that I perform and the way that I act, in the way that I advance in my career. Every moment of advance and of every interview where I got hired was a direct result of the things that I learned and the character that I became, and the character that I was to grow because of the teachings in the church. 

Brother Richie: Right. If you will always have your priorities set, you will be one person. You will have that integrity. You’re not going to live a double life. You’re not going to be one way with certain people and another way with other people. You will just be you because it’s already set in your mind. It’s when that’s not set yet you know there are those that are kind of finding their way, they are kind of struggling with “Who am I? Which one should I be?”

Martin: Exactly.

Brother Richie: That’s what we want to help everyone understand. God, He’s going to help you, but you just have to make sure that He comes first. And when we say He comes first, all the instructions that He gave, because He gives instructions for everything. He gives instructions on how we should be with our families. How we should be at work. Even in school, when we study, a lot of times there are some that are hesitant to take on so much because they feel, and when I say take on so much, specifically like a church office or a church duty, because they feel like “I’m not going to be able to get to it. I’ve got too much stuff to do. I would hate for me to take it on and then it affects everything.” Not realizing that taking that on is going to help you in everything you have because that is what is going to keep you moving forward. That’s what’s going to keep you straight. When you take on more responsibilities in church, your office, you will keep hearing more of His words, which is going to always be the guide that you need when things are confusing. You recall, “Okay, wait a second what is it that I heard? What is it that I was taught?” And used that in coming up with decisions that one needs to make. There are many people that their focus on their goals. They have ambition, which is great. But there are times where they need to refocus, like the focus is in the wrong place. That’s why the Bible says give God first place. Let him be first, whatever He wants. Watch what happens.

Martin: Definitely. Philip, to what Brother Richie is saying, have you ever experienced where your colleagues your coworkers are like, “Wait a minute, you’re spending time at church?” But they’re noticing it positively? Like, “oh, wow, you actually spend time doing that, and that’s the reason why you’re able to do so well.”

Phillip: Yeah. A lot of my classmates know that every Wednesday I have to leave early, I can’t study with them because I have to perform for choir, and that Sundays I only have a certain amount of time in the afternoon because I’m at Church in the morning. And they kind of just say, “Oh, wow, you’re doing all of that in the midst of finals or whatever.” And they’re just surprised that I’m still able to kind of keep up with everything even with these other extra curricular activities.

Martin: Definitely. And Shannon, same for you? Any experiences where they’re like, “wait, you spend time at Church even though you have to do all this stuff?”

Shannon: Actually, my family has finally noticed. They’re not members but they finally noticed that, since joining the Church, my life has totally flipped and they’ve seen the change in me. And being able to have them see that in me is humbling because it sparks an interest about the teachings. It sparks their curiosity. “What is she doing? Why is this Church changing her life?”

Brother Richie: That is a beautiful thing when they haven’t heard anything, right? Have they observed the worship service or attended a Bible study?

Shannon: Nope.

Brother Richie: So, what’s great about that is they haven’t heard anything yet, and I know that there are many people that desire their family members to listen, to hear what they heard, so they could have the same opportunity to make the decisions based on the Bible. But just observing your progress, that makes them curious, what is it that is happening. Like, “What’s happening over there? I knew how you were before. How is it that you changed from this to that? And that is where you’ll have the opportunity to honestly say I’ll tell you exactly, I’ll show you, just come with me. Just listen.

Martin: 100% to that point and to Shannon’s experience, my dad when I was 16, I wanted to become a choir, and I wanted to be involved in the different Christian Family Organizations. And he wasn’t a member of the Church Of Christ, and he said to me, why are you spending so much time, you should be focused on school and work. You’re spending way too much time at that Church. And that was when I was 16, that was over 10 years ago, and now being able to be full time, and devoting my life to the Church, he saw a change, and he went from telling me you shouldn’t be volunteering your time and efforts in Church, to watching everything that I’ve done on incmedia.org, watching every episode of Stories of Faith, listening to the Heart & Soul podcast. Every time we go on an assignment, he’s looking forward to the stories of what happened when we go and we come back. And he eventually became a member of the Church Of Christ. So, it really is to what Shannon is saying, it’s definitely what Brother Richie is teaching. Prioritizing, and letting that be your actions speaking louder than words, it really does not only help you as a person, but the people around you to kind of see that there’s real value in putting God first. 

Brother Richie: Right. And that’s why we really have to be careful in who we choose to have in our lives because, as we know, it’s very important to come up with a proper priority list. There are people in this world, they also have a priority list, but we don’t know what’s number one, two, three. Like we said, there’s only 24 hours in the day, and there might be some that, within their priority list, leisure might be the biggest part. Maybe going to a bar, that might be part of their priority list, and the Bible cautions us and tells us why we need to be careful who we choose. Let me read that first here in 1 Corinthians 15:33 and 58 and we’ll see what the advice of the Bible is. It says:

Don’t be misled, bad company corrupts good character. So then my friends, stand firm and ready. Keep busy always in your work for the Lord. Since you know that nothing that you do in the Lord’s service is ever useless.

[1 Corinthians 15:33, 38]

The advice is we have to be careful. It says don’t be misled, bad company ruins good character, so we do have to choose. So, who is it that we have around us? If we want to move forward, let’s make sure no one around us corrupts that forward thinking. And how is it that we should spend our time? It says, “stand firm and ready” from what we know, from what we’ve been taught, from what is written. And it says “Keep busy always in your work for the Lord.” That’s why, if we give more, if we’re busy, always there, none of that time is ever going to be wasted or useless. It says it’s never useless, and what we read earlier, it’s actually going to be for our benefit because God is going to give us what we need.

Martin: And so, I guess, the next question as we come to the end of our show is, “Well, where am I going to find good company?” Well, for our listeners who are not members of the Church Of Christ, we encourage you, go on our website incmedia.org and click Places of Worship. And there is a place of worship, a house of worship somewhere, where you’ll be able to meet members of the Church Of Christ, and be in good company, and be surrounded by those who are prioritizing God. We want to thank Philip and Shannon for coming on the show, despite their very busy schedules, to help us learn from their experiences, and hopefully to give motivation and hope to our listeners who are just trying to balance their adult lives. We want to thank Brother Richie Juatco most of all for providing spiritual guidance that has both spiritual but also practical value, and the things that we’re trying to tackle in life. Thank you so much, Brother Richie, and thank you to our listeners. We invite you to learn more about the Church Of Christ by going to incmedia.org. We have many events and activities that are of benefit and value to you to provide solace and peace during our daily struggles, especially when we’re in the worship services. Please follow our hashtag on Instagram, #heartandsoulconversations, to stay up to date with all things Heart & Soul. That’s it from us today. Hope we were able to help, hope were able to connect, and hope you’ll join us next time, ready to listen with all your heart and soul. Take care.

Martin: Let’s do a quick experiment. Think about the number of Instagram followers that you have. Now, add that number to Facebook, Snapchat, and Twitter followers that you have as well. It might seem like a lot of connections with a lot of different people, right? But how many of those connections are actual friendships? And does that even matter? What is a friend these days? And where do you find them? Let’s have a Heart and Soul conversation.

[Show open]

Martin: You’re listening to Heart & Soul, a podcast with the Iglesia Ni Cristo, Church of Christ. I’m your host, Martin Zerrudo, and I’ll be interviewing young adults from across the world who are living Christian lives, who are also dealing with real world problems. This is Heart and Soul.

Martin: Welcome to Heart & Soul. Our guests today are Amanda Santiago and Vince Cadigal. Amanda is a nurse here in Toronto, Canada, and Vince is an analyst for the Navy, based in Washington, DC. How’s it going, guys? 

Amanda: Hey, Martin.

Vince: Good. How’s it going? 

Martin: Going well. Excited for this topic. Now, we also have joining us today Brother Bob, ordained Minister of the Gospel and host of That’s in the Bible. He is a husband and granddad to five, former Air Force and forever Buffalo Bills fan. Hello, Brother Bob, How are you?

Brother Bob: Hello to Brother Martin, Amanda, Vince. Greetings to all.

Martin: We’re so very happy that everyone can join us today. And to our listeners, thank you so much for listening to Episode Two of our podcast. The topic of our lesson today is A Friend In Need, why we need less connections and more friendships. Our first question goes out to Amanda and Vince. When we reached out to you, we let you know that the topic of our conversation is being able to find the right kind of friends that you need in your life. What prompted you? What gave you that courage to say, “you know what, I’m going to be on the show and talk about what I’m going through.”

Amanda: For me, I think that it’s from my past experiences. I thought it would be a great idea to share and talk about it in hopes that other brethren out there can learn from my experiences.

Martin: And Vince? 

Vince: I was reached out to by one of my friends out in California, and he thought that my story would be able to do the same thing that Amanda has mentioned before.

Martin: Right on, right on. Was there any hesitation?

Vince: Not really, I’m more of a public speaker. If someone wanted to hear my story, then I’ll gladly tell it.

Martin: Awesome. For you, Amanda?

Amanda: There is a bit of hesitation just because I’m not much of a public speaker as Vince, but my experience, I thought it would be a great idea. So I just went for it.

Martin: Definitely. And I’ve known Amanda for a long time. This is a part of her story that I did not know about. So myself, I’m also super eager to hear about it. So, we’ll get right to our first source. It was from Forbes and it was an article about how connections are easy, but friendships are hard. And we’ll start off our discussion by reading an excerpt from that article. And it says, “What about real friends? What about people to watch a movie or go for a walk or talk about what’s new, what’s upsetting us make us laugh? Where are the people we can tangibly embrace? They might be in another city. They might have impossible schedules. That doesn’t mean that they aren’t there, Skype, email text; they all work to keep us tethered. The hurdle is to be happy and fulfilled with these new forms of friendships.” So, the situation that this article is talking about today is that that friend in front of you that you can hold and you can laugh with and have good times with, and then a friend that you have over social media, what’s the difference? And is it the same kind of happiness and fulfillment as a friend, or is it different?

Amanda: In terms of having friendships in person versus social media, for me is just how you can see them in person versus social media, you can talk to them, you see them through a screen. But when you have that, as you said, tangible  method of communicating, seeing person to person is much different, because you can see their visual cues, you can hear them, and you have a stronger connection. But through social media, it’s more difficult to sense their visual cues and so forth. So that’s the difference for me.

Martin: Vince?

Vince: Yeah, I think social media is definitely a great platform to maintain a friendship. Me, personally, I don’t really make friends over just purely social media, everything has been an in person communication, but the route is built on the in person communication. And from there on, you know, once we part ways, we’re still able to maintain that friendship through these different types of platforms like Skype, Facebook, Instagram, just to be caught up with what’s happening in their life.

Martin: For sure. They say when you meet somebody in person for the first time, they’re trying to give you the best first impression, so maybe not all parts of what they’re showing you is as authentic as it can be. Do you feel like that level of superficiality is greater online? Because they can curate everything that they show the world and curate how they communicate with you? Is there a danger? Do you feel like maybe not everything is as it seems, when you’re connecting with somebody online?

Amanda: Nothing is ever as it seems? Yes. Especially on social media, talking about myself included, people like to post pictures and videos about the good things, about what they’ve experienced, and they don’t really share they’re down. So if something happens, they don’t share that, they only share what’s good things about their lives. And so it’s kind of hard to see the whole picture of that person. And that’s one of the downfalls for social media is they paint a positive picture all the time, and you can’t really see the whole picture.

Martin: Is that true,Vince?

Vince: Yes, definitely. As for me, one aspect of it, because there’s also certain other areas in social media where you can private your account and really make it private, and really make it catered towards your closest friends where you can freely speak, and freely post things with your friends’ events. 

Martin: Vince, how old are you? 

Vince: I’m 24. 

Martin: And Amanda?

Amanda: 27.

Martin: 27. Growing up, there was no social media, there was no Internet in terms of making friends. Can you call back to how it was making friends back then versus now? And is it easier? Is it harder?

Amanda: When I was growing up we had IM messenger. So that was a form of social media that we would use to talk, kind of like text messaging on computer. It was actually easy to make friends when I was growing up, especially in the Church. I grew up at the chapel because my parents were choir members. So, they would bring my sister and I to Church during choir practices. And I would hang out with other Church members. So, that was great. 

Martin: So, you found it was easier? 

Amanda: Yes. 

Martin: What about you, Vince?

Vince: Yes, growing up, like pre-adolescent days, I felt like everything was easier. The world wasn’t as big and complicated. When you’re a kid, you just want to have fun and run around, right? You know, the other kids on the playground just want to do the same thing. So, I felt that it was easier. And then, the older you get, going through adolescence, I think it starts getting bit more difficult just because it depends on the type of person you are. If you’re an introvert, [an] extrovert, that’ll affect how you treat people and how you meet them. 

Martin: Definitely, definitely. I remember when I was a kid in the cafeteria, the talking point was lunch. You sat down beside somebody, “Hey, what do you have for lunch?” “Oh, I have this.” And it’s like, “What do you have?” “Oh, I have rice.” And it’s usually like, “Oh, that’s interesting” while they eat their sandwich. That’s pretty much how friendships were established versus now.

Brother Bob: I see people taking pictures of their food and posting, posting all of their best lunches and dinners and snacks and stuff on their social media accounts. That’s the modern version of what you were describing. When you sit down next to someone in the cafeteria and talk about what you’re having for lunch. Now,they’re doing that online. So, my question to you all would be do you really believe that these people to whom you’re sending pictures of your food, etc., are those friends, or are they acquaintances? It seems to me that the term “friends” has a different meaning. I think I’m quite a bit older than all of you. And I think that whole term for your age group has a different meaning than what it did back in the day. 

Martin: Definitely. 

Brother Bob: A friend was genuinely someone, not that you would just have never met or talked to on the phone or, in today’s case, on social media, it was really someone that was there with you for you and sharing your life. Different meaning of friends now.

Martin: Definitely. And, you know, when you think about it, people used to have pen pals. Right? They would write and they would send mail to each other, but I don’t know if they would be considered of the same kind of friend as a physical friend in front of them. And now, pen pals, to the degree that it is now on social media, is exactly that. You’re just  exchanging information and images and videos, but there’s no real physical meeting and interaction that would kind of establish the friendship, which is kind of odd. I do remember messaging though. I was on MSN. I was never on.

Amanda: Oh, yeah… 

Martin: There you go.

Amanda: That’s what it’s called. 

Martin: I know in the States, right, Vince, was AOL messenger. 

Vince: Yeah, AOL.

Martin: What was your handle? 

Vince: What was my handle? I think it was a it’s anThing, 

Martin: anThing.

Vince: I’m named after my grandfather. And so that’s what they called him. And so I just kind of took that.

Martin: Interesting. Interesting. Amanda, what was your username?

Amanda: It’s really embarrassing. But mind you, I made this account when I was 12. It was Baby Girl. But it was BAB3GUR1. 

Martin: There you go.

Vince: Sounds like a good password.

Martin: It’s optimized for search engines. There you go. Mine was… ready? I made this one when I was thirteen, it’s  phoenix with a Z, 007. Because, why not, James Bond and a mythical creature?

Vince: Yeah, that’s cool. I mean, you know.

Amanda: That’s really nice actually. 

Martin: And I guess that was the extent of trying to make friends online. How cool can your username be? And then the conversation starts. And now it’s like to the nth degree. Like, “How cool can your food look?” Forget talking to the person you’re having the meal with, I need to take a picture.

Brother Bob: I still think that’s one of the most absurd things I’ve seen happening. That’s a sociological phenomenon that I will never get.

Martin: Please don’t check my Instagram. I literally did that yesterday.

[Break/Music]

Michelle: Hi, this is Michelle Barreda, one of the producers from INC Media. I want to tell you about one of the shows we’re working on called The Solution. It’s a show that provides biblical responses and solutions to common family and life problems. It’s a conversation between guests and Minister learning from the Bible together. In our latest episode, we meet Mark. He’s a university student. And he talks to Donald Pinnock, a minister of the gospel in the Church of Christ, about his struggle with loneliness, and the challenge of making new friends as an adult. Watch this episode and more on incmedia.org/thesolution. Bye for now.

[Break/Music]

Martin: So, you know, Vince touched on something you know, as kids, it was so much easier. You’re put in a group of a class. Everybody’s the same age, same grade. You kind of progress through elementary school, middle school, sometimes high school together, and when families move away and that structure that you are so familiar with, that you rely on in terms of friends and community changes, you kind of have to redo it all over again. Vince, can you tell us a little bit about what happened when your family went through something similar, or when you went through something similar? 

Vince: So,my father was in the Navy for his whole career. We moved every four years, and every time we would move, it’s always a new place, new environment, especially new people, you have to make into your friends. You have to say goodbye to your old friends. Whenever I would move, it would be different. A lot of the time, especially growing up, I became more introverted. I was pretty much a quiet kid growing up. I wouldn’t really approach people, or try to put myself in a situation where it’d be easier to make friends, because I was always shy, always with my parents. So, it was really my parents pushing me to go out. And, for the most part, I would make friends through their friends. They would make friends with the other brethren. And then we would go to their place and then I would make friends with their kids.

Martin: When you describe yourself as an introvert, what does that mean?

Vince: Really shy, really quiet, just to myself. There could be levels of introvert/extrovert. Back then I, whenever we would go to these like area meetings and house parties, would kind of just stay to myself while all the other kids would just hang out because tI didn’t know how to approach it, I didn’t know how to include myself to be part of their group. And so I would just tuck myself away in some corner or hallway. And I remember people always ask me, “Hey, are you okay?” They would find me alone at these parties. 

Martin: Right. And when you would find these places to be alone, was it because you were trying to get away? Or you weren’t able to deal with the pressures of talking to people? What was that mechanism to relieve you of? 

Vince: Yeah, it was definitely like all the above. I was trying to get away, trying to get away from that social setting and trying to get away from that pressure of these cues of where I put on myself that I need to go talk to these people and be sociable. But I didn’t know how to do that. 

Martin: And that was growing up? 

Vince: Yes. 

Martin: Was that the same for you, Amanda? I know you mentioned friends at Church. But when it came to school, were you introverted? Extroverted? How was that?

Amanda: Well, when I graduated middle school, I went to a new high school. So, I had to make a complete set of new friends. And I knew I had to adapt. So, I’m kind of either, extroverted or introverted. It just depends on the situation. But when I started high school, that very first day, I had to adapt, so I had to make friends. I was in Drama class. It was my first my very first class in high school. And I just popped in, and first I observed and in my surroundings, looked at people, and then I saw another girl, and I approached her first. So that’s how I ended up building my friends and making friendships. I just had to adapt.

Martin: I remember when I was in Grade Eight. I grew up in downtown Toronto, my whole life, and then elementary school. So from kindergarten to grade six, same core group of friends. Then middle school, we have here in Canada, some grade seven and eight, right before high school. That was middle school. And so right after Grade Eight is when you go to high school, right? That’s kind of when you branch off from all of your childhood friends, but in the middle of my eighth grade in school, we moved. Literally halfway through the eighth grade year. So I couldn’t even end my elementary era or generation with them before high school where we all branched off. We were moving. Devastated. Totally, totally devastated. And when we moved to Scarborough, started at a new school had no friends. In my old school, I ran for class president, and in my new school, I was being bullied because some of the things that they were teaching, we’d already learned in my old school, they called me brainer, and they would take markers like Sharpies, and they would write on my clothes, they would write brainer. And I was like, man, this is not fun anymore. I went from a core group of friendsI knew my whole life to this new school where I’m being bullied, and I’m still the same person. How come I don’t have any friends? Vince, how old were you when you moved, and what was that experience?

Vince: I was about 10, 11 years old, moving into  middle school. And then…

Martin: Oh, similar? 

Vince: Yeah, similar. Even in the middle of my sophomore year, I moved. I didn’t really change high schools, But I did move away from my core group of friends, as far as in Church and the neighborhood. In this new neighborhood, whenever you move within an area, and you’re still at the same local, but you still move, the area groups that we have in Church. So, it’d be a different area group. And so I didn’t really know anyone in there. Being an introvert, I would always keep to my core group of friends, not really branch out from them, even though we grew up together, when we met new people, it was still those same people. And so I didn’t really give myself that option to meet other people. 

Martin: Did you resent the fact that you had to start fresh, or that you left your core group of friends?

Vince: A little bit. Definitely at first, when I was really shy. I was like, “Why is this happening? How come I can’t see my friends anymore? How come whenever I go to these Church events, they’re not there.” So definitely resented that fact a lot.

Martin: For sure. Brother Bob, growing up, did you just stay in one school? Was there a moment where your family moved away, and you had to start fresh with your friends?

Brother Bob: I think almost everyone in the military sees their children go through that. And even we in the Ministry, we often move a lot, so our children go through that. And when it comes to friendships, for them, there’s always a danger going into new schools, a danger going into new neighborhoods. You know, the Bible gives a warning about that. It’s recorded in2 Corinthians 11:26. It says this:

In my many travels, I have been in danger from floods and from robbers, in danger from my own people and from Gentiles; there have been dangers in the cities, dangers in the wilds, dangers on the high seas, and dangers from false friends.

[2 Corinthians 11:26]

So, here’s a long list of dangers, pretty serious dangers, and included in this list are all kinds of real danger, including false friends. So, going to new places, everyone has to be always alert that there may be those who may try to befriend you, but have ulterior motives. Something always to be alert about. 

Martin: Definitely. Amanda, growing up in high school, would you say your friends were a those who are from Church,  or ones outside the Church?

Amanda: In high school my friends were non-members.

Martin: Can you speak a little bit about those kind of friends, and in relation to the verse that brother Bob said. Were you noticing that maybe some of these friends weren’t necessarily good for you?

Amanda: I did have some friends that were not really good influences. They kind of fell into the peer pressures of experimenting a lot with certain things and trying to fit in with the status quo. And so it was difficult to hold back.

Martin: What would they say to you?

Amanda: They would often say, “Hey, why don’t you just try it? Or, why don’t you just hang out with us? We’re meeting up with these people.” So you don’t know if you don’t like it if you don’t try it, right? And so it was really hard. Peer pressure for me it was really hard in high school. And so I had to always have a constant reminder  this is wrong, and try to focus on my studies rather than focusing on trying to fit in.

Martin: Vince, any peer pressures in high school?

Vince: Definitely a lot of peer pressures around. Not really with my friends growing up in high school. I was kind of like the baby of the group because I was somewhat open about my faith. And so they knew that I didn’t celebrate Christmas, didn’t do Halloween, didn’t do a lot of the stuff that they would do. And they also knew that I was pretty active in the Church, you know, in the later years of high school, and they would respect that. I’m not gonna lie,  my friends also did those types of things, but they kept me away from that, and they respected my boundaries.

Brother Bob: Sounds like the friends that you chose are a little bit more wholesome than the friends that surrounded you, Amanda. There’s certainly all kinds of people in this world. Allow me, Martin, to read another Bible verse, if I may. James 4:4:

Unfaithful people! Don’t you know that to be the world’s friend means to be God’s enemy? If you want to be the world’s friend, you make yourself God’s enemy. 

[James 4:4]

Brother Bob: So, there’s people that the Bible describes as being of the world orworldly. Their pursuits, their thoughts, their attitudes, their mindset is that of the pursuit of pleasures and the things that will merely and simply satisfy the whims of the flesh, rather than even considering spiritual side of life. And here, the Apostle James kind of presents friendship and the pursuit of friendship in two directions: choosing those who have that worldly mindset that would may then try to tempt you and lead you away as, Amanda, you sound like you may have experienced friends like that, or those who are attempting to be your friend had that kind of mindset, should you have chosen to live your adult life with them as your quote unquote, friends. The Bible says here that you would have been an enemy of God as they are, which of course is not not a good thing, right? So, you make good choices. Good for you, Amanda.

Amanda: Thank you.

Martin: What would you say would be one of those moments where you made that decision? You made the right decision, but it was the hardest moment, what would be a time that you were like, “wow, they’re really pressuring me, or I feel like I’m going to lose these friends if I don’t go along with them.” But you stood your ground.

Amanda: There are many times when they would invite me to house parties. And I know at the time, you’re trying to fit in, you’re trying to be with your friends. And there was one day where they’re just like, “Hey, why don’t you just come. It’ll only be a couple hours. You can leave whenever you want.” And I said…

Martin: Stay tuned to Part Two of A Friend In need, where we find out if Amanda actually went to that house party, and how a New Year’s Eve turned into one of Vince’s loneliest moments of his life.

Martin: You’re listening to Heart And Soul, a podcast from the Iglesia Ni Cristo Church of Christ. I’m your host, Martin Zerrudo, and I’ll be interviewing young adults from across the world who are living Christian lives, but are also dealing with real world problems. This is Heart And Soul.

[Show open]

Martin: Hey guys, you’re about to listen to part two of “A Friend In Need.” In part one, Vince and Amanda talked about how it’s gotten harder to find the right kind of friends the older they get. We went over some articles that tackled the difference between online connections, their social media, versus the physical friendships that we can make in person. Now in part two, Vince tells us about the loneliest moment of his life, and how Amanda found the one place where she feels she can be her true, authentic self. Hope you enjoy.

Amanda: I said, “No, I can’t. I can’t do those things. I feel like it’s wrong. And who knows what could happen to us, right?” And they’re just like, “No, nothing will happen. You’ll just have fun.” And then I just kept saying no. And then, after a while, I could feel like they were being distant with me. And I was thinking in my head, “Did I say anything wrong, did I do anything wrong?” But I didn’t approach them about it. I didn’t bring it up. I just focused on what my priorities were, which was school and Church. And friends, people come and go in your life. And if they stay, that’s great. If they don’t, just move on, keep going forward. 

Martin: What was in your prayers during those times when they were really on you?

Amanda: During my prayers, I would always ask God for guidance and help in finding those friends who are true, who are genuine, and who won’t tarnish my faith and won’t tarnish my duties. 

Martin: Vince,was there ever a time that you prayed for the right kind of friends? Or to find friends?

Vince: Yes. Definitely, when I joined the Navy, and I had to essentially leave a lot of the things I had built behind. Granted, there’s social media, right? So you can still maintain that. But that face, what we talked about before, that face-to-face interaction really plays a huge role in that. And so I had to leave all that behind. And once I moved to my duty station in Virginia Beach, it was just me. I had to try to find rides to go to Church, and didn’t really have a ride because I just came out from boot camp. I was alone for the most part. I did have a friend out in Virginia Beach, who I grew up with when I was in Japan, and I thought I could count on her since I was there. And we were there, we had this connection back in childhood. But due to her own circumstances though, that didn’t end up working out. 

Martin: What were you hoping she was going to be for you? 

Vince: I was hoping she was gonna be there for me, be my friend be able to be that medium to integrate me into the social life at Church, but it didn’t happen. And so I felt really alone for the first year I was there, just because I didn’t have a ride. Sometimes the KADIWA (youth group in the Church Of Christ) would ask me to hang out. But I didn’t have a ride, and I was still in school for my job. That’s what I had to focus on. So I would just go home right after Church, and go home right after the meeting, because my ride was waiting for me. And so I didn’t really have that much of an opportunity to hang out with anyone. It just continued on like that. 

Martin: How long?

Vince: About a year, until I was finally able to bring myself to these activities and be more involved.

Martin: So, a whole year, you went pretty much on your own? 

Vince: Yes. Pretty much. 

Martin: What was that like?

Vince: It was difficult. I talked to my parents about it. I’m pretty open with my parents, I was asking, I really want some friends. It’s kind of lonely. Actually, for that New Year’s, I spent it alone in my room in the barracks.

Martin: No way.

Vince: Just watching on my laptop with apple cider and pizza, because I didn’t have anywhere to really hang out with. So it was pretty difficult. And so they advised me to pray, pray to God that He’ll guide you, and He’ll bring the right people into your life. So, that’s what I did. I prayed. And eventually, thank God, He was able to do that for me. 

Martin: What was running through your mind? What year was this when you were in the barracks by yourself?

Vince: This is about 2013 going into ‘14.

Marti: So, it’s 2013, you got that cold pizza in your hand…

Vince: Yes. My cold Pizza Hut.

Martin: Yeah, livestreaming the the New York City celebration?

Vince: Yeah. 

Martin: What is that like? What’s running through your head?

Vince: It’s just like, “Wow, look at all those people having fun,” and then, “Wow, there’s so many people that are together.” My family FaceTimed me for a little bit. I saw my family and friends on FaceTime. And I really miss it. I really miss home. And that was just kind of sad. And not really a…

Martin: Probably one of the lowest moments?

Vince: Yeah, yeah, about the lowest moments in my life. I felt like it was my fault, for not being a lot more extroverted, not being really sociable, because I’m a shy person before I make friends. I don’t put 100% of myself out there. I like to assess the situation first to see what type of person they are. And so I feel like that hindered me because I would have that mentality. And then I wouldn’t do it. I wouldn’t keep pushing myself to get to know people, to put myself in a situation where I would be friends with them.

Martin: Amanda, did you have a similar situation when Vince talks about “Hey, this is the lowest low, I was pretty much alone on a New Year’s Eve eating Pizza Hut”? No offence, Vince, we’ve all been there. Amanda, what would you say?

Amanda:  Especially going into new settings and new social settings, I always have that apprehension and that anxiety that if I talk to these people will they like me? And I know that everybody has their insecurities, including myself, and it’s hard to get over those negative thoughts. “Are they going to like who I am? Are they going to like what I say?” I’m always constantly thinking, what if?

Martin: What would those “what ifs” be?

Amanda: If I say something will they not like it? Will they get offended? Or if I crack a joke, will they say, “Oh, she’s lame,” kind of thing. So, yeah, I always had those thoughts running in my head. So that as well is kind of like a mental block for me to open up to people, talk to them, and speak to them. Yeah, I always find that difficult in any social situation. 

Martin: Is there a moment where you’re like, “Wow this is pretty rough”?

Amanda: Yes, because I know who I am and my insecurities. It’s always rough for me.

Martin: Oh, it’s not just one time? 

Amanda: It’s usually for every social situation, especially in big groups. If I go to a party or a large social gathering, even for  KADIWA activities (youth group in the Church Of Christ), I still get pretty nervous. 

Martin: What are some of those insecurities?

Amanda: For myself it’s “Will they like me for who I am? Will they think I’m cool or not?” Yes, it’s just my thoughts. It’s my negative thoughts. Not everybody’s going to say or think the same thing that I’m thinking about what they could say about me. 

Martin: But do you feel like, “Oh, so I’ve just had this my whole life,” or was there something that triggered or like, “Man, I just need to be more careful,” because I don’t know?

Amanda: For me, where it stems from is my insecurities about myself. Everybody thinks negatively about themselves at one point, like, “Oh, I don’t like how my hair looks,” or “I don’t like my freckles.” So, it comes from my own insecurities in my thoughts about myself. And it’s hard. 

Martin: For sure, for sure,  and I don’t want our listeners to feel like, “Oh, man. These guys, they have a hard time making friends. They don’t like to go out. They don’t like to have fun.” It’s not that at all, as referenced by Brother Bob, in the verse, we’re trying to find quality relationships, quality friendships with people who are going to help us not only in our day to day, but as people, and more importantly as Christians. Just because we’re not going to do certain things that we’re being pressured to do, it doesn’t devalue the friendships that we have to offer. It doesn’t devalue the time that we’re willing to provide, which is more valuable than a couple Instagram likes or shares on Facebook. 

And so if you’re listening right now saying, “Okay, well, where did these guys find the right kind of friends? Where did they go to have fun in a way where it really helped them?” I point to an article “Seven ways to make new friends as an adult,” because it’s not as easy as it sounds. Now, this article talked a lot about how, because there’s so much stuff happening online, people don’t know where to go. Well, okay, I know that I can’t make this quality friendship on any social media platform, where am I supposed to go to define these kinds of people? And one of the ways that they said was volunteering. From the article, they say volunteering is a total win win. If you do it regularly, you’ll meet people who care about the same things that you care about. And if you don’t meet people, you still use your talents to do something good for the world. Now, Amanda, can you tell us, knowing that, how did your involvement in volunteering your time with the Church allow you to find the right kind of people for you to get over some of those insecurities that you’re talking about? 

Amanda: Having the opportunity to volunteer for the Church really opened doors for me to have that setting where I can make friends, I can talk to people, as well as helping out in the Church. So, it allowed me to be more open and find the common ground where we all have something in common and can talk about, and that’s what allowed me to be more out there.

Martin: What did you notice in terms of the setting, the more you were involved in Church activities that was different from non-Church settings?

Amanda: What I noticed was that everybody was super friendly, everybody was super supportive. I felt very calm, and I didn’t have to feel like I’m trying to act in a way that they’ll like me. I felt very free and having conversations with them, and joke around not trying to be somebody that they would like.

Martin: There’s no judgment.

Amanda: No judgment. Yeah, exactly. 

Martin: How important was that for you? 

Amanda: For me, being able to freely express myself and be open is really great, it felt really awesome. Because it’s really hard to be authentic, and be genuine outside and be who you want to be, right? Feel comfortable in your own skin. And so that kind of helping out in the Church really helped me be more free and authentic. 

Martin: And, Vince, you did something similar, you started volunteering more time in Church activities. Tell us a little about that, and how that helped you kind of discover a new core of friends.

Vince:  Right. This is like about a year into my time in Virginia Beach, post New Year’s. And so I had my car, I can finally start performing again as a secretary (volunteer office work in the Church of Christ). And like Amanda said earlier, being involved in Church really gives you that visibility. A lot of the friends I have now, we’re also officers (in the Church Of Christ), and we would have that thing in common where we would spend time after Church to attend these meetings, attend these events, and be put in a leadership role for these events. And that was definitely the medium for me in making friends. Like a couple months later down the road, I knew from my past experiences in high school that the Christian Family Organizations like the BINHI organization (youth group in the Church Of Christ) when I was growing up really helped me in making friends whenever I would move. And so my thought process was that’s my medium to make friends. And so I took that upon myself to approach the KADIWA (youth group in the Church Of Christ) officers and ask, “Hey, is there a way for me to also become an officer?” Because when you’re part of a team, you get closer with one another, and eventually, hopefully, you’ll become friends when you’re on the same team. And so I had that thought process going into this, and got a couple of them they talked to me about it (about being more involved with Church). They let me go through the process of becoming an officer. And then at that time, the old KADIWA officers were actually transitioning, and so it was just going to be a whole new team. And we were going through these seminars and everything to get us ready to take over for them. And then we bonded through these activities that the officers would hold. 

Martin: Right.

Vince:  And so we’re able to get to know each other through these icebreakers and activities. 

Martin: What was that trigger for you that said, “I’m going to give these activities in the Christian Family Organization a shot, I’m tired of lonely pizza”?

Vince: I think that lonely pizza was the trigger. But the trigger was I was actually looking for something. I saw them having fun at the KADIWA meetings, cracking some inside jokes. And I know how that was, like being a BINHI officer. And so I was like, “I think they have the same mentality that I do. So, let me go ahead and approach them.”

Martin: So, the outside looking in, and you’re like, “I want in.”

Vince: Yeah, pretty much like I’m tired of eating this cold, lonely pizza…

Martin: Eat the pizza together, at least.

Vince: Pretty much.

Martin: Now for those of you listening who are not members of the Church Of Christ, we do have the Christian Family Organization, which Brother Bob can elaborate on a little bit more, but its organizations that are set up to foster relationships within different age groups within the Church Of Christ. Brother Bob, can you tell us a little bit more about how the Christian Family Organization helps the youth within the Church? And why, you know it happened to Amanda here in Toronto, it happened to Vince in Virginia Beach, and as a minister who has been assigned to multiple places around the world, why is that a consistent thing that he would see at any of these Church Of Christ locations, this kind of unity, this family organization that’s meant to foster friendships?

Brother Bob: Well, surely, a married couple with three children are not going to have the same time or wants or likes and dislikes, etc, as a single person who’s 18 years old. So, the Church Administration has always tried to cater programs, activities, where they would have an opportunity to get together relative to their own age group, situation in life. The younger than 18 youth group would be focusing at various programs that have to do with future college education, or study habits and things like that. Whereas those who are already a married age, those groups would have various seminars on proper Christian courting, and things like that parenting, symposiums and such would be undertaken by those who are married and having children, or challenged with their current parenting skills. So many different things we could mention. All of these are simply an attempt of the Church Administration to help everyone along their journey to serve God with faithfulness and with concern for their spiritual and family life.

Martin: Absolutely. I remember this story. So for myself, I wasn’t born in the Church. Later converted into the Church Of Christ, and grew up in my teens as a new member. And then, eventually, when I became 18, within that KADIWA Family Organization was very active. I guess, similar to what Amanda and Vince were going through. I wasn’t always at the Church activities because I didn’t have time, or I didn’t think it was for me to my foolish detriment. But eventually one of the officers, or somebody who was volunteering their time with the Church had said, “Hey, do you want to grab some coffee?” and I said “Sure.” But she didn’t take me to coffee, she took me to one of these, like a meeting of these other volunteers to kind of discuss an event that they were going to do for similar aged members of the Church as me and I was like, “Wait a minute, this isn’t Tim Hortons. This is somebody’s house, and we’re talking about like an event.” And that triggered, that moment where she brought me, (a) change my life completely. I didn’t give it a second thought. And then the moment I was there, I was like “This is where I need to be.” 

Brother Bob: By the way, Martin, it’s important to let your listeners know, Tim Hortons is the best coffee house, anywhere. You want some good coffee, go to Tim Hortons.

Martin: Tim Hortons in Canada. There are some in New York, but it’s not the same.

Amanda: And their Timbits are amazing. Honey cruller.

Martin: And that’s the thing is that these volunteers within the Church, if you’re a member, or if you’re a non member, as a listener, you go to one of our chapels, and you talk to the people who are of your age group or those who welcome you into the Church, there are events, there are activities, there are conversations at coffee places like Tim Hortons, where you get to know and feel like you’re part of this Christian Family Organization. Because that’s our goal is to make everybody who is wanting to learn more about the Church who wants to start their spiritual journey and those who are already a part of the Church feel like we’re all family. I remember now that I eventually became more active in the Church, I became an officer, a district officer like Sister Amanda in this district. So, I met this friend, his name is Bobby Soriano, he was already a member of the Church Of Christ, recently baptized, and I met him at one of these visitations. And so I would go to this visitation then I would see Bobby again. And I go to another visitation and see Bobby again. And you know, he could have just joined the activities in New York, in his area, in his district (geographical collection of local congregations), but he wanted to continue to feel what he was feeling and those activities in other parts. And then he became all more active, he eventually got married. Now, I believe he’s a Head Deacon, in the Local Congregation of Manhattan there. I think it’s Long Island. It just surprised me that I made a friend who I never would have expected to meet because I decided to volunteer my time. He decided to do the exact same thing, two people who would never have met, but decided to spend time at Church of all places to find a friend. And I made a lifelong friend, because of it. 

And so I urge our listeners, if somebody shares this podcast with you, and they’re a member of the Church Of Christ, and they say, “Hey, I want you to listen to this podcast to give our Church a chance.” You got to get to know what we’re all about. This is how we view friendships. Sometimes you might think we’re not fun, because we don’t want to do bad things. Sometimes you might think we don’t have time because we’re always devoting time to volunteering in the Church. But the payoff, like what Amanda was talking about, like Vince was talking about something life changing, where Amanda, you said, insecurities, no judgment. And for Vince, you said, “You’re no longer on the outside, you’re on the inside?” What is that, Brother Bob? How do we describe that feeling, I feel like I’m home?

Brother Bob: Well, actually there is there is something mentioned in the Bible about that, in fact, Martin. In Proverbs 18:24, it says:

Some friends are fun to be with. But a true friend can be better than a brother.

Proverbs 18:24 (ERV)

Imagine making mentioned here in the Bible that’s even better than a family member. A true friend can be better than that. So, it’s not just having someone, an acquaintance that you have fun with. That’s not necessarily the definition of a friend. That’s an acquaintance you have fun with. But a true friend is something much deeper than that. And it sounds to me that that’s what Vince and Amanda, both of you have experienced when you came to the Church Of Christ. You felt a deeper love, trust, relationship? Or maybe just that kind of a genuine connection that was not superficial? And that’s what we invite all those joining here to be part of. Become part of the family of Church Of Christ members.

Martin: Definitely. We want to thank Amanda and Vince for coming on the show. I’m sure this is the first many conversations. Thank you so much for being honest, vulnerable enough to admit the challenges when it comes to making friends, and for the courage, the confidence and the faith that really goes long way. Now, if you’re looking to find real friendship, not only with Christians, but more importantly, with God, please you email us at [email protected]. Day or night, you’ve got a friend in us there, we’ll be there for you. Please follow our hashtag for the show on Instagram, #heartandsoulconversations, which is on social media. But if you want that face-to-face real connection, any of are members of the Church Of Christ who listen to the show will be more than happy to continue this Heart and Soul conversation at any of our chapels around the world. That’s it from us today. I hope you’ll join us next time, ready again to listen with all your heart and soul. Take care.

[Show closing]