In this episode of Hebrew Voices #214 - A Bridge Between Worlds: Part 2, Nehemia continues discussing with “Digital” Pastor Jim Pierce what it means to be Christian, the issue of Rabbinic authority for Messianics, and how to interact with Jews in good faith as a believer in Yeshua.

I look forward to reading your comments!

PODCAST VERSION:

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Nehemia: What we all have experienced, I think, in religion, which is the narcissism of small differences. But what it really means is the closer we are to each other, the more the small things get emphasized. If an alien were to come from another planet and hear about the difference between different Christian denominations, “These are all the same thing. What are you guys talking about? Like, what?”

Alright. Shalom and welcome to Hebrew Voices! I’m here with Digital Pastor Jim. Shalom, Jim. How are you doing?

Jim: Shalomie, my homie. How are you?

Nehemia: Pretty good.

I want to go back to… and I guess you kind of answered it, but I know there’s people who are listening to this who are saying, “Because Pastor Jim calls himself a pastor and uses the word church, even though he does everything else I do,” and I’m not talking about me, there’s people who are listening to this who will say, “I agree with everything he’s saying, but if you use the word church and Christian, we’re done.” Well, what would your response be to that? I call that… and I hope nobody’s offended. I’m not going to say it because it’ll offend someone. I’ll say it anyway.

Jim: Go ahead.

Nehemia: So, there’s a certain amount of people who… let me speak about myself. I had what’s called the ex-smoker syndrome. I don’t know if you’ve been around ex-smokers.

Jim: Yeah.

Nehemia: But they can’t stand to be around smokers.

Jim: Right.

Nehemia: I’ve never smoked, so I could care less. I don’t want to breathe it because I have asthma. But you want to go outside and smoke? Doesn’t bother me. It doesn’t bother me at all.

You see this with vegetarians. You guys want to be a vegetarian? Be a vegetarian. But there’s vegetarians who are like… the fact that people eat meat exists burns them even if they never hear about it or see about it.

So, I think there’s a certain element of that. So, what would you say to somebody who said, “Oh no. If you use the word Christian, I’m done.” What would you say to somebody like that? Why do you use the word Christian? Let me rephrase this.

Jim: So, I use the word Christian just because it’s a simple way to define who we are and what we do.

Nehemia: Okay.

Jim: But what I really try to focus on is, we are believers in the Most High. We follow the whole book, the Old Testament and the New Testament, and integrate them back together. You know, I got saved in 1976 as my first real religious experience. In the 70’s we had this thing called the Jesus People Movement. All these hippies were finding God and getting rid of drugs and illicit lifestyles, et cetera, and there’s always these guys who come along with the biggest Bible they could get. We used to call it a mule choker, an MC. This is the biggest one.

Nehemia: What?

Jim: Yeah, we call it a mule choker.

Nehemia: What’s that?

Jim: It’s such a big Bible that if a mule tried to eat it, it would choke.

Nehemia: And so, what do you mean it’s big? It’s physically large dimensions?

Jim: Yeah, it’s super large. Yeah. It’s just the biggest Bible you could find.

Nehemia: Okay.

Jim: Then they put a heavy leather cover on it and then they go street witnessing. And they go tell people that they need to adhere to their religious beliefs. And the imagery was, they would beat people into accepting their message.

Nehemia: Okay.

Jim: Very bombastic and outrageous, and bla bla bla. And so, we called them Bible thumpers because they thump their Bible when they preach in the streets, et cetera. And now, in this new era of what I’d say is Christians returning to understanding what the Torah is really about and beginning to dig into the Torah, I call people who do that… now we call them Torah terrorists. They learn a little bit of the Torah and then they go terrorize everybody they know! “Christmas is a pagan holiday! You can’t celebrate it anymore!” “Oh, you can’t eat pork. You’re going to explode!”

Nehemia: My friend Keith Johnson calls that, “Hitting people over the head with the Torah scroll.”

Jim: Yeah, yeah, yeah, same idea. And so, when people come to our congregation… I had one young family, they showed up… I won’t mention their name for privacy reasons, and they’re just glassy eyed. I start with the Shema prayer at the beginning of our service. We do the Aaronic Blessing at the end of the service. We read from the Torah portion. We try to get some of the cultural and historical background. I don’t feel like we need to culturally become Jewish, but we can appreciate the vast diversity of Jewish culture and integrate it back into our faith. It’s not alien to us, and it shouldn’t be alien to us.

So, the Hebrew names, Moshe, Devarim, the whole thing. And Caleb actually taught himself Hebrew growing up as a Messianic believer.

Nehemia: Wow.

Jim: Yeah. So, he can read and translate.

Nehemia: So, he was raised… we’ve got to have him on the program. That sounds really interesting.

Jim: Oh, yes. Yeah, Caleb’s…

Nehemia: Well, what I find interesting about what you’re saying… and I don’t know, I’ll have to talk to Caleb, but what I find interesting about that is that, look, I’ve been around all kinds of people since the 90’s. Let’s see, even… no, definitely it was, it was probably ‘90, ‘91 when I met my first person who I would call Hebrew Roots. He didn’t know that term, because I don’t even know if it was around, but in retrospect, I would call it that. Was it ‘90 or ‘91? I have to think more about it, I don’t know. But it was in Israel, and so I’ve been around folks coming from a similar perspective to what you’re describing, let’s say, for quite a long time. And most of the people for the first 20 or 30 years are like you; they were raised Lutheran or Catholic or Baptist.

What I find really interesting is people who were raised in what you’re describing, because that’s a different experience. That’s really interesting. I find that really interesting because then it’s really harder to explain the ex-smoker syndrome; they were never smokers. They weren’t raised with it, and so there’s kind of… I’ve encountered, often, a different perspective. Although the perspective evolves over time for everybody, I suppose.

Jim: Sure, sure.

Nehemia: So, you’re saying, “Look, everybody knows what Christian is. Why are we playing games?” I kind of feel like that’s what you’re saying. Is that a fair characterization?

Jim: Yeah, yeah. But we forget that there’s a tapestry with lots of color. Like, for me as a Christian, one of the stories that was told about Jesus in the Gospels is, he said, “You struggle to strain out a gnat, but you swallow a camel.” And I’m like, “That doesn’t make any sense; camels aren’t kosher.” I didn’t understand because it had no point of reference. It’s a Hebrew-ism, probably, a euphemism that maybe makes sense to you because you speak Hebrew. You know the alphabet. And for 40 years, it’s like, “Lord, I don’t know what this means. It makes no sense to me.” And then I learned the Hebrew alphabet, the Alef-Bet; Alef, Bet, Gimel, and then that the 10 words are letters. The third of the three commandments is “Thou shall not take the name of the Lord, your God, in vain”. And so, in my mind I put those two thoughts together, and to me… I could be wrong, but to me, what Yeshua was referring to is, you’re taking God’s name in vain and you’re unclean from the inside out because you do that. Because he said, “You swallow the gimal,” “You swallow the camel,” and camels are unclean. But the third commandment is “Don’t take His name in vain.” Did it change my theology? No, but I saw something, a nuance, that Hebrew helped me understand what he might’ve been talking about. Now I might be jumping the shark on that one…

Nehemia: I’ve never heard that interpretation. I’ll tell you how I think most people interpret it, and I never thought differently, but maybe you’re right. Tell me if I’m wrong here. Isn’t the standard interpretation, “You’re focusing on unimportant things rather than important things, while missing the big things?”

Jim: Yeah.

Nehemia: So, there’s this concept called… Freud came up with it, I’m trying to remember what it’s called. It’s profound when you hear this term. I’m trying to remember what it’s called. Oh, it’s called the narcissism of small differences. Freud came up with this term. But he said something we all know, which is… Gulliver’s Travels had this plot point where there were two different kingdoms. I don’t remember. It was a long time ago that I read this; two different kingdoms of little people, the Lilliputians.

Jim: Lilliputs.

Nehemia: And calling them Lilliputians, little people, was kind of insulting them, by the author, I forget his name. And one of them broke the eggs on the wide side and the other broke the eggs on the thin side, and so they had a war between them. So, that is what we all have experienced, I think, in religion, which is the narcissism of small differences. But what it really means is the closer we are to each other, the more the small things get emphasized.

Jim: Right.

Nehemia: Which, I think when I first heard that, I’m like, “Wow, that’s so true.” Because if an alien were to come from another planet and hear about the difference between different Christian denominations, and even maybe to some extent between… I learned this when I studied at university. We had a class about Buddhism, and they were talking about the three big branches of Buddhism, and I’m like, “These are all the same thing! What are you guys talking about? Like, what?”

It was profound, because there’s these two branches… I forget what they’re called. I want to say it’s the Mahayana and something else, I don’t know, this was over 30 years ago. And it was explained to me by the professor, “This is the equivalent of Christianity and Judaism.” There’s this branch that was founded in the, literally in the 6th century BC, and this other one that came about 500, 600 years later. And the other one looks at the first one like, “They’re completely lost.” And the first one looks at the other one like, “You guys just changed everything.” And it’s like, “What?”

Jim: And they’re just a hair’s width apart.

Nehemia: I’m hearing about this, and I can’t even understand the difference of what you guys are talking about in the three different Buddhists thingies, and I think an alien would hear about that in Christianity and Judaism and understand, “Wait. So, you both believe in one God, but like you’re talking about, did the Messiah come? Or is he going to come again?” And this is a central thing. You’ve got to believe this bit. Or certainly within… I mean, literally there’s Jewish sects that would separate them as… I’m not trying to be funny here, literally the color of their socks. If you look at Hasidic sects, there’s one Hasidic group that will wear white socks on Shabbat and the other group will wear black socks.

Jim: I see them.

Nehemia: And if somebody from the white sock group marries the black sock group, the woman is considered like she’s gone off the deep end. She’s left the faith. “I can no longer talk to my grandchildren over this.”

Jim: Right, right.

Nehemia: That’s the narcissism of small differences.

Jim: Yeah. I was at a Chabad meeting with a Chabad rabbi for Rosh Chodesh, and I’d never seen anything like this, so I’m excited. Rosh Chodesh! And as I’m looking around, I said, “There’s no new moon.” And of course I read some of your material, studied up on Karaites, and so I was like, “Rabbi?” Because I learned, you don’t tell a rabbi anything, you ask them questions. They can’t help it, they have to answer a question, even if they know you’re leading them into…

Nehemia: He might answer with a question!

Jim: Sometimes, but I’m the goy, so they’ve got to tell me something direct. They can’t answer me with a question. So, I said, “Rabbi, is there any group of Jews who count the actual new moon in Eretz Israel?” He goes, “No, no, no, no, all Jews do this.” I was like, “What about the Karaites?” “Oh, they’re heretics!”

Nehemia: Fair enough, from his perspective. By the way, I want to come back to that word.

You used the word goy.

Jim: Yeah.

Nehemia: I’ve encountered people online who think the word… actually, not just online, I admit. I won’t say who, but somebody within my wife’s family who said to me, “Oh, you probably think I’m goyim.” And I’m like, “Well, first of all, goyim is a plural, goy is singular. Do you know what that word means?” He says, “Yeah, it means debased animals.” What?

Jim: No.

Nehemia: Israel is called a goy in the Tanakh. It means “nation.”

Jim: Right.

Nehemia: So, goyim is literally just the equivalent of “gentile” and gentile is from a Greek word that means “the nations”.

Jim: Right.

Nehemia: So, in other words, it’s Israel and the nations, and there’s no negative connotation within, let’s say, traditional historic Jewish literature. I can’t say there aren’t Jews who are bigots who… anybody who isn’t Jewish, they despise. That might be the case, but those people despise me too, I’ve got news for you.

And there are derogatory terms in Jewish culture, like shegets, which means “abomination.” That is a term, and everybody in America knows the feminine form of that, which is shiksa. Shiksa is straight out, a hundred percent a derogatory term. It means “abomination”. If anybody ever calls you a shiksa, you should be deeply offended… if you’re a man, for sure, but even as a woman. They might not mean it offensively, because they heard it on Seinfeld and they think it’s a joke. But it’s not a joke, it’s a disgusting term.

Jim: It’s a very vulgar term.

Nehemia: But goy and goya, that literally should be translated as “non-Jew”.

Jim: Yeah.

Nehemia: So, I’m glad that you were able to use that in the correct non-offensive way.

Jim: Yeah. Yeah.

Nehemia: Look, there’s people who use the word Jew as an insult.

Jim: True.

Nehemia: I had a friend who grew up on the East coast of the US, and one of his childhood friends said to him… he told me this story recently, or 10 years ago, who said to him, “You’re such a Jew, and I don’t mean it in the bad way.” And he said, “What’s the bad way?”

Jim: What’s the bad way?

Nehemia: “I don’t know what you’re talking about.” But look, there are entire languages where they won’t use the word Jew because Jew is an insult. Like in Russian. You can’t call someone a Jew, whatever their equivalence is of Jew. You have to say “Hebrew”. Jew means we’re from the Yehudah, from the Kingdom of Judah. In the Book of Esther it says, “And many of the peoples of the lands,” “mityahadim,” “were becoming Jews.”

Jim: Right.

Nehemia: Meaning they’re joining the exiles from the kingdom of Judah.

Jim: Okay.

Nehemia: So, it’s in the Tanakh, in the Book of Esther itself. And it’s certainly in the New Testament, where maybe it means “Judean”, from the province of Judah. But, then there’s people in Galilee who are also called Judean, or Yehudim. So yeah, it’s very strange! We have these words that take on different meanings in different contexts, and if somebody calls me a Jew, I’ll never be offended by that.

Jim: Right, right. Yeah.

Nehemia: So, alright. Let’s talk about the other perspective briefly.

Jim: Sure.

Nehemia: So, I see you getting flack from people who are coming from the Hebrew Roots movement. And they might, again, not call themselves Hebrew Roots, who say, “But you’ve got to do what the rabbi… you’ve got to accept all the Rabbinical traditions.”

Jim: Right.

Nehemia: And if you don’t… and again, I don’t want to name names. But there’s this guy on TikTok who has a video responding to Michael Rood, and Michael Rood says something about the rabbis, referring to them as Pharisees. And this person says, “That sounds kind of anti-Semitic.” There’s no rabbi that I’ve ever met who would be insulted by the term Perushim, Pharisees.

Jim: Perushim, yeah.

Nehemia: Because Pharisee is a term that refers to Rabbinical Jews, before the Temple was destroyed, who had certain ritual observances that aren’t commanded, even in the Oral Law. But it was seen as, “Here’s somebody who’s going above and beyond.” So, it would be like someone who’s extra righteous, that’s kind of what it meant.

Jim: Right.

Nehemia: So, not every Rabbinical Jew was a Pharisee, even in the Second Temple times. You had what was called “the multitudes”.

Jim: Right.

Nehemia: Am Ha’aretz. So, to be a Pharisee meant you were really following very strictly, especially about what you ate. I won’t go into details. We could do a study on that if you’d like, but it had to do with the ritual observance. Like, you wouldn’t eat at the table with me because I don’t observe the things they do. So, they wouldn’t eat at the same table because my food would be ritually unclean just because I touched it.

Jim: Right.

Nehemia: So, that’s what a Pharisee meant.

Jim: Right.

Nehemia: It would be like calling somebody Hasidic today. Rabbinical Jews don’t say you have to be Hasidic, but if you are… Hasidic means “righteous ones”.

Jim: Right.

Nehemia: That’s how they use the term. Anyway, that’s what it’s come to mean. But you have people today who will say, “Jim, you’ve got to follow Rabbinical Judaism, which is the continuation of the ancient Pharisees.”

Jim: Right.

Nehemia: Explain to me their perspective, as you see it. And what’s your response to it?

Jim: Sure, sure. I’m friends with some of these guys; most of them are actually Jewish by heritage. They may have not been raised in a Jewish home, but then found they had Jewish heritage, and they receive what they believe is the New Testament, the Brit Ha’chadashah.

Nehemia: Okay.

Jim: And I’ve had these discussions with them, because they try to tell me that, “Well, it’s incumbent upon us as believers to obey the Oral Written Torah, the Torah She Be’al Peh.”

Nehemia: And do they say it that way? The Oral Torah, Torah She Be’al Peh?

Jim: Yeah, they’ll say the Oral Torah. Or they’ll say… what was the other word for it?

Nehemia: The Mitzvot Ha’Rabbanan, “The Commandments of the Rabbis.”

Jim: Right. The Mishnah.

Nehemia: The Mishnah, okay.

Jim: And I’ve got the Chumash and stuff like that. And so, yeah, they’ll say “we have to obey that”. And I was like, “Well, I have a friend of mine, he lives in the Chabad community. He got outed as being a missionary, which was very bad…”

Nehemia: Wait, let’s back up. Hold on. Let’s talk about this guy.

Jim: Yes.

Nehemia: He lives in Chabad? Chabad is a Hasidic…

Jim: Sect.

Nehemia: Let’s call it, branch, sect, whatever you want to call it.

Jim: Sure.

Nehemia: And they’re one of the few Hasidic sects that’s very open. Meaning it’s very difficult, almost impossible, to join like Bobov or something like that, which is pretty big, actually.

Jim: Yeah.

Nehemia: You have to be born into it or marry into it. Whereas Chabad… I was once invited to a Chabad Shabbat meal, and I’m like, “Look, I’m going to drive there.” He’s like, “Yeah, everybody drives.” If you went to most ultra-Orthodox… let’s say, if you were invited to Shabbat and they heard you were going to drive there, you’d have to park two blocks away because, if they saw you driving, you wouldn’t be welcome, because they say it’s forbidden to drive on Shabbat. So, Chabad is extremely open. I give them a lot of respect for that.

Jim: Right.

Nehemia: Okay. So, this friend of yours, let’s call him Tom. I’ll make up a name.

Jim: Okay.

Nehemia: So, Tom lives in a Chabad community, but he’s a believer in Yeshua?

Jim: Correct.

Nehemia: And is he actually a missionary to convert Jews?

Jim: Yes and no. He doesn’t want to convert them.

Nehemia: Now I’m intrigued.

Jim: Yes. He doesn’t want to convert them to what we think of as evangelical Christianity, because many Chabadniks believe Menachem Schneerson was Mashiach. There’s a sect of Chabad that believes Schneerson…

Nehemia: Some believe he is, not just that he was.

Jim: Yeah.

Nehemia: And for those who don’t know, he’s a rabbi who died in 1994. There are some Chabad who say that “He didn’t actually die. You just think he’s dead. He’ll reveal himself hopefully soon. If we’re righteous enough, he’ll reveal himself soon.”

Jim: Right.

Nehemia: Something like that.

Jim: Right, yeah, several different versions and additions.

Nehemia: There’s… it’s different versions.

Jim: Yeah. And then some would say they even buried him with silver spoons and he’s digging his way to Jerusalem.

Nehemia: That one I’ve never heard.

Jim: Yeah, that’s a weird one.

Nehemia: Look, in the mainstream Chabad says, “Yes, he’s dead, but he’s going to come back as the Mashiach.”

Jim: Right. And so, he is one of those guys who would argue that, as Gentile Christian believers, we’re to follow the Mishnah and the Torah She Be’al Peh. And so, I’ve had discussions with him about this.

Nehemia: So, Tom is of Jewish heritage… or he’s not?

Jim: No, he’s not.

Nehemia: Oh, he’s not.

Jim: No, he was raised Baptist.

Nehemia: Okay.

Jim: But he originally started off in Bible college.

Nehemia: I hope his name isn’t really Tom, by the way!

Jim: No, it’s not.

Nehemia: Because I don’t know who he is, and we should respect his privacy.

Jim: No, he’s not. And then his wife… he did eventually get married. She’s not Jewish by heritage. It was easier for her to “convert”. But of course, the Chabad won’t let him convert because he has to deny his faith in Yeshua. But he does the morning prayer…

Nehemia: Tell me what that means. Do they literally ask the question, “do you believe in Jesus?” Or what’s the…

Jim: Yeah. So, one of their tenants in the process of conversion is that you have to deny Yeshua is Ha’mashiach specifically. They require you to do that. Now, I have a friend who converted 30, 40 years ago…

Nehemia: Is that specific to Chabad? I haven’t heard that before.

Jim: I assume it’s specific to Chabad, because Chabad intentionally proselytizes Christians to convert to Judaism.

Nehemia: Really? I’ve not heard of that.

Jim: Oh yeah. I’ve had a Chabad rabbi ask me three times, “Jim, you should convert. You’re practically a Jew already!”

Nehemia: Wow! I have never heard that. Because the standard Jewish idea is that you don’t proselytize to non-Jews, and in fact, you turn them away three times. So, if they say, “I want to convert” without telling them, it’s a…

Jim: A rule.

Nehemia: They don’t know they’re going through a process, but they are, of being rejected three times, and the fourth time they say, “Okay, here’s this long conversion.” You take a class for a year and then a bunch of other things.

Jim: Right.

Nehemia: Wow. So, I haven’t heard that. That’s really interesting to me. This is such a fascinating conversation, guys! Please listen to the whole program. I know you might have just heard a little clip on TikTok or something. Come listen to the whole thing. It’s one of the most interesting conversations I’ve had in years!

Go on.

Jim: So, this gentleman, he wants to start a synagogue that’s very Rabbinic and Orthodox but accepts Yeshua as Ha’mashiach. He said, “Jim, I’m shomer Shabbat, I’ll only walk on the Sabbath.” He said, “I eat only halachically.” Not just biblically clean, because there’s a difference between eating kosher and eating biblically clean.

Nehemia: Yeah, for sure.

Jim: There’s obviously some separations depending on what halachic school you’re going to follow, but he does everything just exactly like a Chabad rabbi would do.

Nehemia: Wow.

Jim: He’s very well educated in the Mishnah and in the Talmud and in the Gemara. He’s super well educated in all these things; he quotes it off the top of his head. His wife, if you saw her, you would believe that she was a Chabad Hasidic woman. Her children have peyot; the boys do. But he couldn’t convert. I asked him, “Why would you embrace this cultural group who, on the very fact that you would proclaim Yeshua as Ha’mashiach, they would say you’re a heretic and cast you out. But you would obey every other rule they follow. I don’t understand that.”

Nehemia: What was his answer?

Jim: He just said because he feels he’s supposed to bring Yeshua to these Chabadniks.

Nehemia: That’s very interesting, because that’s different than what I’ve heard from people. I’ve met a lot of people the way you’re describing, and I’ve heard it differently. That’s why I asked. Because the explanation I’ve often heard… I’ve heard that explanation as well, but usually not. What I’ve often heard in the past was, “Well, Yeshua was a Pharisee rabbi, and the continuation of the ancient Pharisees after the Temple was destroyed,” or whatever. They don’t necessarily know those nuances. “But the later continuation of the Pharisees are the Orthodox rabbis, and they sit in the seat of Moses. We have to obey them. Right or wrong, we have to obey them. They’re the ones that God Himself has put over Israel. When Yeshua comes back,” this is what they say, “then he might decide something different, but this is what we have to do for now.”

Jim: Right.

Nehemia: So, that’s really interesting. I hope this is a correct analogy, I don’t know. I’m thinking out loud here. This is my thought process.

Jim: Yeah, that’s fine.

Nehemia: Jordan Peterson says the way you think is by speaking out loud. And then you’ll often say stupid things, because in your thoughts you also often say stupid things. So, I hope this isn’t stupid. But I wonder if this is like somebody who goes to the Amazon rainforest and lives among some semi contacted tribe and learns their language, and walks around in a loincloth, because “if I don’t speak their language and embrace their culture, how can I bring Jesus to them?” Or whatever it is.

Jim: Right, right.

Nehemia: So, that’s very different. I don’t think I’ve ever heard it that way. So, that is different than what I’ve heard. I’ve definitely encountered people who have told me, “I’m only doing this to convert Jews. I want to befriend them.” And then here’s what I’ve heard; this is very disturbing to me, I’ll be honest with you. So, I met one guy who was asked by a rabbi, “Do you believe in Jesus?” And he said no. And when he’s telling me this story, he says, “Because I don’t call him that, I call him Yeshua.” And then he was found out, and the rabbi’s takeaway from this is that Christians are just liars.

Jim: Right.

Nehemia: Because you ask if they believe something, and they say they don’t when they really do. So, this rabbi, who eventually discovered this particular person… this was in Israel at the Diaspora Yeshiva, and if the person hearing this is listening, I hope he’s repented because he gave believers in Yeshua a very bad name to the head of a yeshiva in Israel.

Jim: That’s not good.

Nehemia: Because this rabbi hears this, and to him, it’s six of one, one half dozen of the other, and you just lied in order to deceive people to believe in Yeshua. That was the takeaway for the rabbi. So, I think that’s what we call chillul hashem, “a desecration of the name”. In this case, I guess it’s the name of Yeshua. Yeah, go ahead.

Jim: When I was in Israel last April, I got to go visit Netivyah, which is truly a Messianic synagogue. They’re all Jewish people. The rabbi’s name is Yosef Shulam.

Nehemia: Where is this?

Jim: Yosef Shulam. He’s just outside of the Old City. I was staying in the Old City, and I could walk to the synagogue.

Nehemia: Okay.

Jim: And the current head rabbi is Yehuda Bachanen, and it’s Netivyah. So, Josef Shulman, he started this synagogue in Jerusalem 50 years ago. There were three of them when they first started, but they do full liturgy, full Jewish liturgy; they do the Torah scrolls, the Torah reading. And so, he wanted to expand his building. He was telling this story. But in Jerusalem, you probably know, you have to get permission from the other synagogues before you can expand your facility.

Nehemia: I didn’t actually know that.

Jim: Yeah, okay. So, this orthodox rabbi of a neighboring synagogue refused to give him permission to expand his facility because he felt that they were fake. They weren’t real. They were Christians pretending to be Jews, or something to that effect. And so finally, the rule, which is also in the Torah, in Jerusalem code, is, you have to meet with your adversary before you go to court. And so, Josef kept inviting Yosef, this other rabbi, to come, and finally, the rabbi walks in the room, and he looks around. This Orthodox rabbi in Netivyah, which is beautiful. I’ve been there; it’s a beautiful synagogue. And he walks in, and he goes, “You don’t have a cross hanging from the wall!” And Josef says, “Why would we? We’re Jews!” And he goes, “You have a Torah scroll in the ark!” He goes, “Of course we do. We’re Jews!”

And so finally, they went through this whole process, and they sat down and talked. And Yosef told him his story, and how he teaches from the Torah portion, and things that he’s done to help Portuguese Jews who were conversos to come back to their roots and make Aliyah back to Israel, et cetera. And so, this rabbi says, “You’re Jewish!” He goes, “Of course we are! We just believe who the Messiah is, is different. We believe his second coming is what we’re waiting for, not his first.”

Nehemia: Okay.

Jim: And I love visiting this synagogue. It was so beautiful. They’ll have a translator for those of us who don’t speak Hebrew. So, it was beautiful to visit. And they do active outreach in the community, but it’s not a trick. And when I get the chance to talk to… I do carpet cleaning, and I had a customer, she was in her 80’s. I’m cleaning her carpet. She had Jewish paraphernalia all over her house, and I started talking to her about the Torah portion. She goes, “Oh, you’re Jewish?” I was like, “No, no, no, no, I’m not Jewish.” She goes, “You’re a Christian?” I was like, “Yes.” “Why do you know so much about the Torah portion?” And I said, “Because I love studying. I believe Yeshua is the king of the Jews. He was a Jew. So, I need to learn about Judaism to understand him better.” And I said, “Do you know rabbi so-and-so and rabbi so-and-so?” “Oh, yes, I know them. I know them.” And so she goes, “Oh, my Christian friends tell me I should convert to Christianity. I don’t need any of that.” And so, I just told her… I forgot her name off the top of my head now, but I said, “Listen, if Yeshua really is the resurrected king of the Jews, he’s just waiting for you to say, ‘Show me you’re real,’ and he will.”

Nehemia: So, look, I think there’s a profound difference between somebody who wants Jews to convert and then misrepresents… maybe not misrepresenting yourself… like Tom. Do you think Tom is misrepresenting himself? In a way he is. Maybe he’s not, because… I don’t know. You tell me, I don’t know the guy.

Jim: Yeah. So, my friend who wants to start a synagogue, he wants it to be… you would walk in, and you wouldn’t know that it wasn’t a Chabad service. Everything would be the same. Just like at Netivyah in Israel. If you walked into their service, they would do everything like you’d experience in a regular Orthodox synagogue. They read the Torah portion, they do the same songs, the responsive readings, and everything’s just like a synagogue. But then they get in, once the Torah portion is done, and the Haftarah, then they’ll get into Ha’brit Hachadashah portion that couples with the Torah portion.

And so, it’s not a compromise. In the same sense that there are Chabad rabbis who believe Schneerson is Mashiach, he says, “I believe in operating in the Hasidic way, but I believe Yeshua is Mashiach. And I can show you from the Talmud why I believe this.” And I can’t argue with him because I don’t know the Talmud. But I just thought it was fascinating. I find it really fascinating.

Nehemia: People have been arguing that for 700 years or 800 years.

Jim: Exactly, for quite some time.

Nehemia: Rabbi Yechiel of Paris had a famous disputation with a Catholic counterpart.

Jim: Right.

Nehemia: And he was very surprised, because the basis of the debate was about the Talmud, not about the Tanakh, which was kind of different than earlier debates.

Jim: Is that the Disputation of Maimonides?

Nehemia: No, that’s… no. Maimonides never had a disputation. There’s a Disputation of Nach-manides, who is Rabbi Moshe, son of Nachman. Not to be confused with Mai-monides, Rabbi Moshe, son of Maimon. Nachmanides was in 1263, in Barcelona; that’s called the Disputation of Barcelona.

Shortly before that, I don’t remember the exact year, there was a disputation in Paris. It’s called the Disputation of Paris, with Rabbi Yechiel of Paris, and they chose, actually, the top rabbis. These were heavy hitters. Pablo Cristiani didn’t know what he was getting involved in when he chose Nachmanides… or maybe the Jews chose him. I’m not actually sure. I forget. But this was like one of the top rabbis of all time who had an encyclopedic knowledge. But anyway, yeah, this is a debate that’s been going on. So, Rabbi Yechiel of Paris was another one who was a few years before that, and that was a much more… well, the king of France was a really bad guy, and I’m pretty sure he’s a saint in the Catholic world now.

Jim: I wouldn’t be surprised.

Nehemia: He was an open anti-Semite; evil human being. The result of the Disputation in Paris was that they burned the Talmud. What a horrific thing. You might not agree with the book. Why would you burn it?

Jim: Right. Right.

Nehemia: Let’s go back to Tom, because I find this so interesting. So, here’s what I can understand, and I don’t know if this is Tom or not. I forget which organization, but I read this years ago on their website. They’ve changed it since; you can probably find it in the archives of the Wayback Machine. It was one of these messianic organizations who explained that their purpose was to create an environment in which Jews can feel comfortable coming to Jesus, or Yeshua.

Jim: Right.

Nehemia: In other words, it really is like the guy going to the rainforest. “Like, what? I have to give up whatever they do in the rainforest?” I don’t know. But the Catholic Church kind of does that in the sense that they’ll take… I think there was an Aztec goddess or something that was brought to the Vatican or a copy of the Aztec goddess…

Jim: Yeah, all the gods from all over the world.

Nehemia: And why do they do that? They say, “Because the people in Peru, this is what they’re comfortable with. Why do they have to give that up? We’ll just call her Mary. How is it any different?”

Jim: Right.

Nehemia: “We’ll just claim her to be Mary, and then they’ll be comfortable.” And I understand there’s a difference because Yeshua was a Jew, so there is a difference.

Jim: Right, right.

Nehemia: But still, I feel like there’s an analogy there. There’s people who are saying, “Why do you have to give up your Jewish culture to believe in Jesus? Why do you have to go to a Sunday church and have an Easter Bunny?” The irony is that most of the Jews who I know came to believe in Jesus, or many of the Jews, I should say, they’re much more comfortable in the Sunday church than they are in… I’ve spoken to a lot of Jews who have said to me, “Well, the reason I became a Christian is because I want to be close to God, and I don’t want to have to keep Shabbat. So, I’m much more comfortable in the Baptist church than I am in the Messianic synagogue.” So, I’ve encountered quite a number of people like that.

Jim: Right.

Nehemia: But for the ones who are comfortable, maybe with that, and I’ve met those people too. They say, “Well, I don’t want to give up my culture, so let’s just have a synagogue where Jesus is accepted.” Meaning, that I kind of understand, or I may be more sympathetic towards, than what it sounds like maybe I’m interpreting Tom to be saying is, “I wouldn’t be doing any of this except for to convert people.” Is that fair?

Jim: I don’t know. I think he would still practice…

Nehemia: Or is it a combination of things?

Jim: Yeah. I think he loves the liturgy.

Nehemia: Oh, okay, so that’s different.

Jim: Yeah. He passionately loves it. This isn’t a passing fad for him, he’s been doing this for years.

Nehemia: So, he’s not faking it just to convince people like the guy I met at the Diaspora Yeshiva.

Jim: No, not at all. Now here’s another weird story. I joined an organization called the UMJA.

Nehemia: What does that stand for?

Jim: United Messianic…

Nehemia: I feel like I’ve heard of them, but don’t know what it is.

Jim: Yeah. United Messianic Jewish Association.

Nehemia: Okay.

Jim: So, I contacted them, because I know some Messianic rabbis who are from this organization. And so, I spoke with the president, and I said, “I want to join your association.” “Well, Jim, you’re not Jewish.” I was like, “I know. I know.” “But Jim, you’re a Christian pastor.” “I know. I know. But there’s things that I need to learn from you guys that I can’t learn any other way at this stage of my life.” And he’s like, “Well, do you eat biblically kosher?” I’m like, “Well, I eat biblically clean,” but yada, yada, yada.

Nehemia: Did he say, “biblically kosher?” Or did he say “kosher”?

Jim: He said kosher. I said biblical. I use that.

Nehemia: You added the word biblical.

Jim: I added the biblical. Right, right. And so, he’s like, “Jim,” he says, “I got to tell you. I was raised Jewish. I did accept Yeshua as a young man, and I became a Messianic rabbi, and I’m friends with all of the Jewish community, the Orthodox community, in the neighborhood. I don’t fish in their pond; they don’t fish in mine kind of a thing.” And he said, “But you’re just not Jewish enough.”

And I was like, “According to Jeremiah and Ezekiel, what happened to ‘one new stick in his hand, both Jew and Gentile together?’” I argued with him for an hour, and he goes, “Jim, are you sure you’re not Jewish? Only Jews argue with me this much!” He says, “I’ll take it to the Bet Din. We’ll discuss it, and we’ll see.”

But I also knew the principle of the rule, you got to say no three times before you say yes. So, finally through the process of lots of conversations with the Bet Din… These guys are all Rabbinic. They follow the Halachah, and they discuss Halachah, because there’s lots of different schools of thought amongst Halachah in many different ways. And so, they allowed me to join as a Christian pastor.

Nehemia: Oh, wow!

Jim: Yeah. I started off as a mashgiach. Well, no, they let me come in as a moreh, a teacher. And then now, they said, “We watched your TikTok videos,” and the guy was telling me, “Jim, you… you’re saying the exact same things that I would say to these antinomians or to the other people who are arguing with you.”

Nehemia: Tell us what antinomian is. I know, but I don’t think most of the audience does.

Jim: Those who don’t believe we’re to follow the Torah, that it’s against the law, essentially, or replacing the law of Moses. And so, he told me, he said, “I’ve been watching your videos. You’re saying the same things as a Messianic rabbi that I would say to them, and I’ve been doing this for 50 years.” He’s actually my age. And he said, “So, we want you to become a part of our association.”

Nehemia: Oh, wow.

Jim: Yeah. So, it’s been really fun.

Nehemia: Are they going to be upset that you’re on this program? It’s already gone out live. It’s a bit late.

Jim: Oh, no, no. I think they would love it. I think they would love it. Because I feel my personal mission in which… that’s one of the things I love about your relationship with Keith Johnson is, it’s like there’s a bridge between the Jewish world and the Christian world. And you guys come across that bridge together, and you discuss Torah together, and you talk about the Scriptures together. I found that very, very inspiring. And so, I feel like my mission is to do something similar.

When I was in Jerusalem, I walked down to the Jewish Quarter. All these guys wearing their hats and stuff looking for rabbi Yishai Nachai, I think his name is, and to interview him. He’s just an amazing guy. Orthodox rabbi, his family came from Persia, his grandfather walked and carried this 800-year-old Torah scroll, and he has a shul there. We had a wonderful conversation, beautiful man.

Nehemia: Wow.

Jim: He doesn’t believe in Yeshua, he’s an Orthodox rabbi. He was trying to figure out what I was doing there, and I was just like, “I love this!” He goes, “Oh, you don’t tell Jews about this Jesus stuff?” It’s like, “Why would I? We talk about the Torah! It’s the foundation of everything!”

Nehemia: It’s interesting; I met this guy about 10 years ago. I wanted to have him on the program, but I never got around to it. Maybe he’ll hear this and come on.

Jim: Yeah.

Nehemia: I don’t remember his name, but he wrote a book, or he was involved in a book, called, Post-Missionary Messianic Judaism. And the name says it all. And he said to me like this, “Nehemia,” he said, “look, this is how it started out. We were just trying to convert Jews to Christianity, but now we’ve had generations that have grown up in it, and it’s a real thing now. It’s its own thing, and we don’t want to just convert Jews, we want to be Jews.” That’s a profound statement!

He really said something to the… it’s been 10 years, so I hope I’m not misquoting him, but he said something to the effect of, “We don’t want to just convert Jews, we want to be Jews who believe in Jesus,” or Yeshua, whatever he said. I don’t remember.

Jim: Sure.

Nehemia: So, wow, what a profound concept. But here’s the problem; most Jews who hear the word Messianic, they think Jews for Jesus, which is an organization that solely exists, as far as I know, to convert Jews to Christianity. Meaning, like the mainstream Christian. I think I’m not wrong… I don’t know, I could be wrong. My understanding is their goal is to get you into a Sunday church.

Jim: Right.

Nehemia: And to give up practicing forms of Judaism because that puts you under the law and separates you from Jesus.

Jim: Right.

Nehemia: I don’t know the exact terminology.

Jim: No, I think you’re right. And so, that’s why in Netivyah, in Jerusalem, if you’re Jewish, they want you to stay Jewish. Some of them are Sephardic, some of them are Mizrachi. I met a guy and his family was Bukhari; he was a Bukhari Jew. And he told me, “Well, my family’s Bukhari.” I’m like, “Oh, you’re from Iran?” And he goes, “Christians never know what the Bukhari Jews are!”

Nehemia: I thought most Bukharis were from Uzbekistan, but maybe…

Jim: Well, yeah, Uzbekistan. I get it mixed up, the actual country, but yeah. So, it was fascinating. But just to realize you can keep your cultural background. I’m not trying to become Jewish. I’m not Jewish. I don’t need to. But I love learning Hebrew. I love learning about the different groups. I love learning about the Na-Nachman. I would love to go dancing with the Na-Nachman in Israel. That’d be so much fun.

Nehemia: Tell people what that is, for those who don’t know.

Jim: Yeah. They follow Rebbe Na-Nachman, and he believed… he was a Hasidic, so they worship God with intense passion. But he believed you’re supposed to experience worship with such exuberance that it’s overflowing constantly. So, they stop at a stoplight with speakers on the car. They all jump out of the car and dance around in circles singing.

Nehemia: It’s quite a sight, I’ll tell you. Yeah.

So, guys look this up. He was Rabbi Nachman of Breslov, and he’s buried in a place called Uman, which is today in Ukraine. So, there’s a faction of them, I don’t think it’s all of them, that believes if every Jew says the name of their rabbi, then their rabbi, who is the Messiah, will come back. And so, they actually write out his name as the syllables. They write Na, Nach, Nachma, Nachman. And so, you see that in graffiti all over Israel, and you’re like, “What does that say?” And you sound it out, and by the time you’re done, you’ve said the name of the rabbi. So, they’re kind of almost trying to kind of trick you to get you to say the name because if every Jew says it, he’ll come back. They don’t all believe that, but some of them believe that. And so, they’re called… or the people who believe that, who promote that, are called Na-Nachs. I think at first it was derogatory, but now they’ve embraced it, kind of like the name Christian.

Jim: Right, right, right.

Nehemia: Interestingly. So, they’re like, “Yeah, we’re Na-Nach. We want everybody to say the name of our rebbi and to embrace the values.” So, one of his statements was that you should always be happy. Which I’m not sure I agree with that, but that’s one of their teachings… or his teachings. And then there’s people who, even during the current war that’s going on in Ukraine, on Rosh Hashanah, the Rabbinical holiday of Rosh Hashanah, they’ll go to the grave of Rabbi Nachman of Breslav. And there’s tens of thousands of Jews, many of them who aren’t even religious, who are like, “Okay, I hear this is where you have a spiritual…” And they do. They have spiritual experiences. They go there and they have all kinds of incredible experiences. There’s also some bad stuff that goes on.

But overall, this is like a Jewish pilgrimage. It’s kind of a strange pilgrimage, because there’s Jews flying from Jerusalem to Ukraine, to Kiev, and then taking a bus or a train. Actually, in the last few years, they’ve been flying into Poland and Belarus, or wherever; I’m not exactly sure how they get in. But last year, they waited, some of them, for 12 hours at the border to get in, and eventually got in and spent the holiday weekend there, or holiday days.

So yeah, it’s kind of an interesting… it’s what the Hasidim will call Lebedek, which is “of the heart”. I think Christians would call it spiritual. They’re very spiritual people.

Jim: Right, right. Lebedek, isn’t that German for love?

Nehemia: Lebedek is from the Hebrew word lev, which is heart.

Jim: Heart, okay.

Nehemia: And Lebedek means of the heart. And yes, maybe it’s a play on words with the German word leib, but Lebedek is of the heart.

Jim: Right.

Nehemia: Like, Chabad are famously Lebedek. Ask your Chabad rabbi if he’s Lebedek. He’ll get a kick out of that!

Jim: He’s hilarious.

Nehemia: So, Hasidim tend to be very Lebedek. I’m from the Lithuanian tradition, which tends to be very intellectual rather than Lebedek.

Jim: Right.

Nehemia: Chabad actually combines the two. They’re both Lebedek and intellectual.

Jim: Yeah.

Nehemia: Famously. So, I guess what you’re really saying is, there’s a lot of expressions within Judaism and you can maybe learn a little bit from everything.

Jim: Yeah.

Nehemia: Yeah. Pretty cool.

Jim: And dispel anti-Semitism. And people who don’t understand… because Jewish culture can be intimidating for people who weren’t raised around it or don’t know anything about it.

Nehemia: It’s intimidating to Jews, what are you talking about? I’ve heard from so many Jews who are like, “I can’t go to synagogue. I wouldn’t know what page to turn to in the Siddur,” in the prayer book. And literally, you’ll go to synagogues of, let’s say, more moderate Orthodox on the high holidays, and they’ll have what they don’t normally have throughout the year, but they’ll have like a big thing where they’ll show you the page. And as they turn the page… it has to be analog, because they don’t use digital devices on Shabbat or on the holiday.

Jim: Right.

Nehemia: It will be like a big number 1 and then a big number 2 and a big number 4. “We’re on page 124,” and someone will go up and put up the number 5, so you see, “now we’re on page 125…” because it is intimidating, 100 percent!

Jim: Yeah, yeah. I’ve been at the Chabad house for Erev Shabbat. I come early because he says, “Jim, come, do the prayers with us, Jim!” He’s Ukrainian, and he lived in Israel for a long time. He’s got a beautiful accent. I love the way he talks. And his wife, they speak Russian, Ukrainian, Hebrew, English, a little Spanish… they’re amazing people. Anyway, they’ve got a beautiful family. So, he’s flipping through, and they’re going as fast as they can. And I can sound out Hebrew words, but I have no idea what I’m saying! “Bla-bla-bla-bla-bla…” “Slow down, slow down!”

Nehemia: Right. There’s a movie called The Frisco Kid. If anybody hasn’t seen it, you should go watch it. It’s a very profound movie. But it’s this rabbi from Lithuania who’s traveling to San Francisco, and for various reasons ends up having to travel through the Wild West back in 1849 or so. And he gets captured by native Americans, and he’s carrying a Torah scroll. The chief holds up the Torah scroll to his followers, and he says, “I read this entire book!” And he turns to the rabbi, and he says, “I didn’t understand a single word.” I love that line!

Jim: Was that Gene Wilder?

Nehemia: That’s Gene Wilder, yeah, that’s right. Profound on so many levels. There was also a young Harrison Ford.

Jim: Oh, my goodness!

Nehemia: It’s a very good movie. There’s one scene there where he meets the Amish, and he thinks they’re Jews because they’re dressed like ultra-Orthodox Jews! And in fact, pretty much all Jews from Eastern Europe are ultra-Orthodox, or certainly rabbis were. And then he sees the cross and he faints. But then he sees they’re really nice people who are honest, who are hardworking, and they get along. It’s a profound movie on so many levels. So, Gene… Jim… I just call you Gene, Gene Wilder. This has been Digital Pastor Jim, guys! Check him out on TikTok. Where else can they find you?

Jim: Yeah. So, we’re on Facebook. You can just look it up by my name, or you could go to our church’s website.

Nehemia: What’s your name? Jim, everybody’s named Jim. What’s your last name?

Jim: Pierce, P-I-E-R-C-E, Pierce. And then our church website is springsoflivingwater.co. And I also have a YouTube channel; that’s the Wild Branch Ministries International. So, I kind of condense Torah portions and make them digestible to non-Jewish people and some Jewish people.

Nehemia: Wow.

Jim: So, it’s a lot of fun. And I use sort of a Twilight Zone theme; it’s hilarious. “You just entered another dimension, a dimension of sight, of sound, of spirit. Mount Ebal and Mount Gerizim. You’ve just entered the Torah Zone!”

Nehemia: Wow! Very cool. Guys, check it out. We’ll post some links on nehemiaswall.com.

Jim: Yeah. Thank you, Nehemia. I appreciate you so much.

Nehemia: Thanks for joining me.

Jim: Thank you for all that you’ve done this decade. I’ve known of you for almost seven or eight years; I know Chaim Goldman. You probably know who Chaim is, he’s a friend of mine here in Colorado Springs.

Nehemia: Oh, for sure.

Jim: I visited a seminar you did in Denver five or six years ago, and I might have said hi to you briefly at the seminar. But just… thank you for all that you’ve done to explain the Torah to people who are just coming into a deeper understanding. And the research, the translations… I’m going to be interviewing Dr. Miles Jones in a couple of weeks. I know you’ve done some work with Dr. Jones.

Nehemia: Okay. Tell him I said hi!

Jim: Yeah, yeah. And I met Byron Stinson a few weeks ago in Kansas. I don’t know if you know who Byron is, but I assume you’ve met him or heard of him. He brought the red heifers to Israel.

Nehemia: Oh, okay.

Jim: Yeah. So anyway, it’s just fun, interesting stuff. But thank you.

Nehemia: I think I spoke to him on the phone once, maybe. I’m not sure.

Jim: Oh, yeah, yeah, more than likely. So, he’s a great guy. He’s a Texas rancher. “They need some red heifers? I’ll get them some red heifers!”

Nehemia: Okay.

Jim: I know. It’s weird. It’s hilarious. But I just want to thank you personally… and your wife; what a sweetheart, what a sweetheart. She’s such an angel, and you’re a blessed man.

Nehemia: I love the spirit of calmness and levelheadedness that you have, and openness. And so, I hope I can learn from that, and others do as well.

Jim: Well, I’ve learned a lot from you already.

Nehemia: Shalom.

Jim: Thank you for all that you do for the kingdom.

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VERSES MENTIONED
Deuteronomy 6:4-5
Leviticus 19:18
Acts 2:44
Matthew 5:17-19
Genesis 38
Numbers 35
John 13:35
John 14:15
Matthew 22:36-40; Mark 12:28-31; Luke 10:25-28
Deuteronomy 22:6-7
Exodus 20:12; Deuteronomy 5:16
1 Kings 18
Leviticus 19:19; Deuteronomy 22:11
Babylonian Talmud Kiddushin 39b; Jerusalem Talmud Chagigah 2:1
Daniel 12:2; Isaiah 66
Isaiah 6:5
Babylonian Talmud Eruvin 13b
Matthew 23:24
Deuteronomy 26:5
Esther 8:17
Ezekiel 37

BOOKS MENTIONED
The Karaite Jews of Egypt
by Mourad El-Kodsi

Gulliver’s Travels (1726)
by Jonathan Swift

Postmissionary Messianic Judaism: Redefining Christian Engagement with the Jewish People
by Mark S. Kinzer

RELATED EPISODES
Hebrew Voices Episodes
Support Team Study – Remember the Bibas Babies

OTHER LINKS
Digital Pastor Jim’s socials:
YouTube
Springs Of Living Water
TikTok
Instagram
Facebook 

The post Hebrew Voices #214 – A Bridge Between Worlds: Part 2 appeared first on Nehemia's Wall.