Chris Burris is a Senior Lead IFS Trainer and a clinical consultant with decades of experience in mental health and group work. Chris is based in North Carolina and leads training for the IFS Institute and his Creating Healing Circles work worldwide.

Last month, Chris joined Jef Szi for an in-depth conversation that illuminates the power, purpose, and benefits of healing with others. Along the way, we get to know the variety of influences and the backstory to Chris's group work, including a need to help his clients have real spaces to work on their social challenges, and Chris's interest in finding new models of authenticity that don't require being hijacked by reactive emotions.

With tremendous kindness and boatloads of reference points, Chris helps us understand why healing circles are an essential tool for healing from traumas and for offsetting the hyper-individualism found in most personal-growth work.

Chris teaches us that most traumas arise in relationships and are also healed through supportive, non-threatening contexts where participants can experience others as advocates and allies. He also shows us that well-run Healing Circles can allow participants to test new ways of being that are more cohesive and less isolating.

Throughout Healing with Others, Chris offers his grounded perspectives; whether it's on the Internal Family Systems model, the pros and cons of Men's work in the 1980's and 1990's, or how nature is another kind of healing force, we are well instructed by Chris and his extensive knowledge on group work and the healing process.

Perhaps the heart of Chris's teaching is the Internal Family Systems (IFS) model. In this conversation, he breaks down the model, showing how IFS is a constraint-and-release model whose core notion of an innate Self is characterized by calmness, curiosity, and compassion, and how the various "parts" play a role in protecting the Self. We also learn from Chris and kind way of thinking about our parts, and how these protective and often reactive voices within us frequently eclipse our core energy, leading us to relate to ourselves and others in harsh or critical ways.

With Chris, we take another step forward in imagining what it takes to be more cohesive as a society. In this case, the path forward is to challenge our assumptions about the do-it-alone approach. Instead, we are encouraged towards the chance to be with others, dropping in deeply, where trauma and social connections can be transformed as a community. Few are better positioned to show what this path looks like than the heart-centered and wise Chris Burris.

Thank you for being on the show, Chris!

About Chris Burris: Chris is a Clinical Consultant and Senior Lead Trainer for the Center for Self Leadership. Chris has been a psychotherapist since 1989, working with diverse populations in community agencies, intensive residential centers, institutions of higher learning, and in private practice.

He began training in the Internal Family Systems model in 1999 and is currently a Senior Lead Trainer for the Internal Family Systems Institute, where he teaches Level 1, Level II, and Level III trainings and serves as a trainer and mentor for new IFS training staff.

Resources:

1. Get On Chris's Mailing List
2. Order Chris's Book
3. Try the Exercise Spoken About in the Show

Episode Summary:

Recent events in America from Minneapolis to Washington D.C., show us that unapologetic postures and political strategies are attractive to some who are interested in power.

In this special bonus episode, Jef Szi shares his recent essay about this unapologetic trend on full display not just in the terrible shootings of Renee Good and Alex Pretti, but in the Trump administrations response to those events.

Jef show us how empathy and social care are essential tools as we aim to stay human in inhumane times. An important reminder that our feelings are not just difficult, but part of the solution.

Finally, Jef shares his most recent poem. It imagines Adam apologizing to Eve in The Garden of Eden.

East Forest joins the How Humans Work Podcast for a special Winter Solstice episode.

With a generous mind and grounded heart, East walks us through how his Music For Mushrooms Documentary was birthed, as well as the creative gifts and challenges that came along with that project.

Special Note: WATCH it FOR FREE ON YOUTUBE 12-21-2025 to 12-31-2025

Additionally, this conversation explores East's connection to ceremony, elders, influential indigenous traditions, and his subtle nuances and commitments it takes to honor the creative process.

Finally, this show weaves bits of East Forest's remarkable music as he reminds us to remember the power of intention, of community, of retreat, of simple presence, and that curating spaces to listen to our soul are gifts that allow us to find the smile inside our soul.

#eastforest #musicformushrooms #psychedelicmedicines #music #ambient #courtjohnson #ramdass #lorraineweiss #ceremony #ayahuasca #esalen #bigsur #healing #humannature #jefszi #howhumanswork

Episode Summary

Landscape Architect Nina Chase, sits down with Jef Szi for a terrific exploration of her work imagining and designing public spaces. Nina’s easy and honest expertise deepens our view on what fosters Social Cohesion. She helps surface the amazing, often understated, network of relationships connected to an everyday discipline shaping our lives.

With an abundance of talent and inspiration, Nina teaches us the important role architects of public spaces play in our history and our future. With her unique understanding of cities and communities across Middle-America, she exemplifies the powerful capacity landscape architecture has to subtly re-imagine and redefine the common spaces that anchor us.

What we ultimately find in Nina’s work are the seeds for better-connected communities, healthier and more well-adjusted humans, and a closer connection with the natural world—especially the crucial role of trees.

In It’s Not For You, we find a refreshing power in good-hearted folks like Nina, and her colleagues, who are endeavoring to shape what comes next, designing with clear-eyed care for the web of life and a sensible commitment to the needs of future generations.

We find a sober reminder, our role is to plan and plant for a future that will carry on beyond our us.

About Nina Chase:

Nina Chase is a landscape architect and Founding Principal of Merritt Chase. Her work focuses on creating meaningful, public spaces across Middle America. Born and raised in West Virginia, Nina graduated from West Virginia University and Harvard’s Graduate School of Design. She spent her early career in Boston designing and planning notable public parks and open spaces. Today, Nina leads Merritt Chase’s urban work, planning and designing public parks, plazas, waterfronts, and cultural districts. Nina is dedicated to the design community through teaching, writing, and advocacy. She frequently lectures and serves as a design critic nationally and internationally. Nina is formerly an adjunct faculty member at Carnegie Mellon's School of Architecture and an emeritus board member of the Landscape Architecture Foundation. Nina is currently the Co-Chair of the Harvard Graduate School of Design Alumni Council and a member of the Harvard Alumni Association Board.

Episode Summary

Dance artists Mele Estrella and Damara Vita Ganley join show host Jef Szi and the How Humans Work Podcast for an illuminating conversation that explores the rich terrain of their artistic work.

Throughout this remarkable episode, we learn about Mele and Damara’s intensive creative ethics, efforts to engender trust, dedication to playfulness, and deep curiosity about the hidden stories around them.

As dedicated movement artists, they are a powerful example of how attuning with one’s body, relationships, and the performance spaces acts as a cohesive force. Their craft and their commitment to the process of art is the foundation for their dance, and we are well-instructed by listening to them.

In particular, we hear the fascinating backstory to their recent project, Flock. Flock intertwines animal and human migration stories with ecological awareness, showing the importance of belonging through the metaphor of “flocking.”

The Dance of Belonging also explores their “Vertical Dance” Bandaloop Project. Using rope and harnesses to dance on the sides of massive objects, like granite faces or skyscrapers, this innovative dance form is a uniquely stunning display of how art can inspire wonder in all of us.

Naturally, we discuss the teachings that come with encountering fear as part of the artistic path. We come to find how Mele and Damara use fear as a guide for deeper connection and support, finding confidence in creative belonging.

Many thanks to Mele and Damara for helping us see Social Cohesion in action. Through their creative efforts and commitment to authentic connection, we find that social cohesion is not so much a product of external forces but instead begins with our connection to our own bodies and the group of people we create the story of our lives with.

About Melecio “Mele” Estrella:

Mele Estrella is a director, choreographer, and educator who has been with BANDALOOP since 2002. As Artistic Director, Mele brings 2 decades of practice weaving vertical dance, dance theater, somatic facilitation. and ecological belonging to BANDALOOP’s dance making. Mele’s work bridges the everyday personal/social body with the dream body, proposing expanded possibility and awe in our time of poly-crisis. 

Mele also co-directs Fog Beast, a cross-disciplinary group that affirms ecological connectedness in landscape, live arts and education. He is a longtime member of the Joe Goode Performance Group. Passionate about creating space and sustainability for artists, Mele serves on the advisory boards for the Artists Space Trust and for Arts in California State Parks. He was a Cultural Space Ambassador for the Community Arts Stabilization Trust (CAST), a Leadership Fellow for the Association of Performing Arts Professionals (APAP), and is currently a Lucas Artes Fellow at the Montalvo Center for the Arts.

About Damara Vita Ganley:

About Damara Vita Ganley:

Damara Vita Ganley (she/they) is a movement artist and embodiment guide dedicated to alchemical creativity and connection practices.

She meets her work in the world with deep humility, curiosity and a verdant lostness while drawing on extensive national and international creation, performance and teaching experience. 

She bows in profound gratitude for her long time creative collaborations with Melecio Estrella, Artistic Director of BANDALOOP which include Flock at The Momentary (2025), Somewhere to Oakland (2025), and serving as Associate Choreographer for Melecio in Vertical Choreography for Tina Landau and Idina Menzel’s new musical Redwood ( Broadway 2025), Downstream (2024) at Sonoma State, Resurgam (2023) at St. Paul’s Cathedral in London.

Melecio and Damara also weave many years together in Fog Beast and Joe Goode Performance Group

Following degrees in Anthropology, Critical Feminist Theory and Performance, Play and Design,  Damara has had opportunities to perform with Mel Wong, Ellen Webb, Nancy Karp and Jo Kreiter/Flyaway Productions, Gerald Casel Dance  Cid Pearlman, Holcombe Waller, Erin Mei-ling Stuart/emspace dance, Manuelito Biag/Shift Dance Theatre, and Lisa Townsend.  

She currently shares movement practices as a lecturer at UCSC in Play, Performance and Design, with people with Parkinson’s, Veterans, Care Providers, at Bay Area High Schools, with SFArtsEd Middle School performers and as a leader of JGPG’s signature movement methodology, Movement for Humans. 

She enjoys offering embodiment practices and somatic sessions for individuals as well. About Damara Vita Ganley:

Damara Vita Ganley (she/they) is a movement artist and embodiment guide dedicated to alchemical creativity and connection practices.

She meets her work in the world with deep humility, curiosity and a verdant lostness while drawing on extensive national and international creation, performance and teaching experience. 

She bows in profound gratitude for her long time creative collaborations with Melecio Estrella, Artistic Director of BANDALOOP which include Flock at The Momentary (2025), Somewhere to Oakland (2025), and serving as Associate Choreographer for Melecio in Vertical Choreography for Tina Landau and Idina Menzel’s new musical Redwood ( Broadway 2025), Downstream (2024) at Sonoma State, Resurgam (2023) at St. Paul’s Cathedral in London.

Melecio and Damara also weave many years together in Fog Beast and Joe Goode Performance Group

Following degrees in Anthropology, Critical Feminist Theory and Performance, Play and Design,  Damara has had opportunities to perform with Mel Wong, Ellen Webb, Nancy Karp and Jo Kreiter/Flyaway Productions, Gerald Casel Dance  Cid Pearlman, Holcombe Waller, Erin Mei-ling Stuart/emspace dance, Manuelito Biag/Shift Dance Theatre, and Lisa Townsend.  

She currently shares movement practices as a lecturer at UCSC in Play, Performance and Design, with people with Parkinson’s, Veterans, Care Providers, at Bay Area High Schools, with SFArtsEd Middle School performers and as a leader of JGPG’s signature movement methodology, Movement for Humans. 

She enjoys offering embodiment practices and somatic sessions for individuals as well. 

Contact Damara:

[email protected]

Instagram

Episode Summary

In episode #51, wisdom keeper and astrologer Chris Skidmore, joins the podcast for a profound conversation exploring the intersection of myth, astrology, and social cohesion.

Chris and podcast host, Jef Szi, delve into the the 12 House System of Astrology as a "mythic language" and ancient teaching device that can provide guidance for exploring human nature and our social realities.

After framing astrology not so much as a predictive tool or literal science, but rather as a rich, symbolic framework for understanding the human condition, Chris and Jef discuss the organization and significance of the 12 house system. Along the way they highlight various features of this "medicine wheel" as an archetypal ally for personal and social development.

From there, the conversation homes in on the critical axis of the Fifth and Eleventh houses. Jef and Chris connect this house-system polarity to Jef's recent experience at the Grateful Dead's (Dead and Company) 60th anniversary shows in San Francisco. The performer-audience relationship become the metaphor they use to examine the dynamics between our "individual fire" (the Fifth House's focus on creative self-expression) to "collective connection" (the Eleventh House's domain of community and social contribution).

Later on, Jef and Chris call upon a rarely mentioned Greek Olympian God, Hephaestus, to further illuminate to the 5th/11th House axis. Hephaestus is a figure of both woundedness and masterful craftsmanship and lore surrounding his disfigurements.

Both The Dead and the Hephaestus become pertinent tales through which the various connections and tensions that occur between the creative soul and social responsibilities can be known—how our personal struggles and creative passions of doing what we love can be supported or troubled by mass, social pressures of our times.

What Chris and Jef land on is these matters of love, creativity, shame, and community are not isolated, but are integral to how we navigate our human condition. Ultimately, there's a consequential dance taking place between a life that finds its real loves and pleasures and finding our place and contribution to society.

In the beginning, middle, and end, The Astrology of Self-Love, & Society masterfully links personal emotional experiences to a broader, archetypal framework, offering a new way to view our creative lives and the pressures of mass society.

I hope you enjoy this conversation and it’s implications as much as I did getting to interview Chris.

About Chris Skidmore:

Chris Skidmore is the host of On The Soul's Terms Podcast. He is also a practicing psychotherapist, astrologer, biodynamic cranial-sacral therapist who currently resides in Bali. Be sure to drop into Chris's podcast to follow his work on the 12 Houses, or call upon him for an astrology reading.

Episode Summary

Dr. Arielle Schwartz, Ph.D, is a clinical psychologist, internationally respected teacher, and leading voice in the healing of PTSD and complex trauma. For more than twenty years, Dr. Schwartz has guided therapists in the how-tos of trauma treatments—including EMDR, somatic psychology, parts work therapy, and applied polyvagal theory in yoga and other embodiment practices.

In How We Heal, Dr. Schwartz brings her rich expertise of trauma and healing to the podcast. With equal portions of precision and compassion, she provides essential insights into the nervous system, the kinds of stress that drive trauma, and orientations we can embody in the face of today’s social divisiveness.

In particular Arielle talks us through Dan Siegel’s “Window of Tolerance” and how we can use awareness of our nervous system tone to improve our mental health. She shows us how isolation is both a source and consequence of trauma, and provides multiple, nuanced distinctions that clarify matters like developmental trauma in childhood, Big T trauma, complex trauma, and the “trauma time” of PTSD.

Consider yourself invited to listen-in, as Dr. Schwartz gracefully illuminates the intersection where trauma and society meet. With her wisdom, we come find how trauma-informed communities can foster the heart of goodness, allowing us to mend the frays of our social fabric.

• The Complex PTSD Treatment Manual
• The Polyvagal Theory Workbook for Trauma
• Somatic Oriented Therapies: Embodiment, Trauma, and Polyvagal Perspectives
• Applied Polyvagal Theory for Yoga

Find a full list of books, trainings, and more at her website.

Follow Dr. Schwartz on IG * FB

Episode Summary

The good-hearted and visionary Orin Carpenter joins the podcast this week to explore the connection between art and society. As a fine artist who uses mixed media to make evocative and abstract art with social commentary, Orin carries a rich sense of the artist's social function. Orin's pieces are journeys into the layers of personal experience and American truths. His art deals with themes of identity, race, conflict, change, and healing.

Orin's abundant passion for art’s ability to initiate dialogue is the heart of our conversation today, and as we take our next steps in our meditations on Social Cohesion, Orin is a delightful gift and an authentic voice to have in the mix. His wise and creative soul brings body and shape to our adventure, bringing us to new ground and new thought as we consider human nature and America's social contours.

We Paint These Truths (Yes, it is meant to echo 'We Hold These Truths') begins with Orin recounting how art entered his life. By providing a compelling portrait of the influences and circumstances that awakened the artist within him, we come to understand the forces that shaped his early life and the incredible response he had to them. Growing up in a black family in the South, being born just a few months after the assassination of Dr. King, finding black characters in Marvel comic books that he could relate with, the local library trips with his mother, the legacies of the Harlem Renaissance, and jazz music and their album covers were all pieces in his purpose puzzle.

Along the way, we experience the energy and passion of Orin's art ethos. For him, art is both personal and social. It acts as a medium and metaphorical space that connects people, fosters dialogue, and helps us see each other in ways that debate alone cannot. For Orin, art serves as a conduit for restoring dignity, a means to acknowledge uncomfortable truths and a platform for honest conversations about justice and equity. In a moment of profound honesty, Orin shares the lived truths he navigates in his American experience and the way dualities of belonging have driven his expressions.

Throughout the conversation, we find that Orin is a valuable guide, not just in his connection to the power of artistry but also in his rich sense and vision of art as both expression and activism. Orin's spirit of "artivism" encourages us to reconsider the role art plays in shaping our outlook and in its power to create a more compassionate and cohesive society.

You're heartily invited to listen in as we journey with Orin and turn the philosopher's stone over together on this matter of Social Cohesion.

*****

About Orin Carpenter: Orin is a fine artist, high school art teacher, and Doctor of Philosophy in Education. He lives, creates, and works in Northern California.

Check out Orin's art and get in touch with him about workshops at his webpage.

Episode Summary

Renowned evolutionary psychologist Robin Dunbar returns for part two of his conversation with Jef Szi and the How Humans Work Podcast, diving deeper into the limits and leaps of human social patterns.

In this episode, Professor Dunbar expands on the evolutionary foundations of human relationships, moving beyond social grooming and the endorphin system to explore kinship and the deeper nature of our social lives.

He begins by examining the cost and time investment required to maintain our inner circle of intimate friends. From there, he maps out the concentric layers of more peripheral friendships and the behaviors and expectations that characterize them. Dunbar emphasizes the vital role our closest five friends play in our wellbeing and longevity.

We then explore how humans scaled up from the group sizes typical of primates to the now-famous “Dunbar’s Number” of 150. This leap—central to the Social Brain Hypothesis—reveals how brain size in primates correlates with social group size, due to the cognitive demands of managing complex, stable relationships.

Dunbar illustrates these ideas through compelling examples—courtship, language, and religion—showing how humans have creatively repurposed existing biological mechanisms to sustain cohesion in increasingly larger groups.

He also sheds light on how cultural practices like laughter, feasting, ritual, and storytelling serve to bind people together into broad, loosely connected “supergroups.”

Ultimately, Dunbar offers a concentric model of our social world, illuminating the patterns, breakthroughs, and constraints of human sociality. This conversation helps us better understand our evolutionary journey and how we might draw on both embodied emotion and cognitive insight to navigate a highly uncertain future.

*****

About: Robin Dunbar: Robin Dunbar is Emeritus Professor of Evolutionary Psychology at Oxford University. His work in the Experimental Psychology department at the Magdalen College is concerned with ‘trying to understand the behavioral, cognitive and neuroendocrinological mechanisms that underpin social bonding in primates (in general) and humans (in particular).’ Robin is the author of several books, including The Social Brain, Human Evolution, and Friends: Understanding the Power of Our Most Important Relationships. Professor Dunbar is known for advancing the Social Brain Hypothesis with Dunbar’s Number.

Episode #48 Takeaways

• Dunbar's number suggests humans can maintain 150 relationships.
• Time investment is key to strong friendships.
• Friendships provide emotional support during crises.
• Social interactions can be as beneficial as medical interventions.
• Volunteering can substitute for friendships in terms of social exposure.
• Cohesion in larger groups requires superficial cues and shared knowledge. Friendship layers are assessed within the first four weeks.
• Common interests determine the depth of friendships.
• Intuition plays a key role in evaluating relationships.
• Institutions help manage social cohesion and relationships.
• Shared knowledge and folklore create larger communities.
• Religion serves as a stabilizing force in communities.
• Top-down structures provide discipline, while bottom-up structures foster local identity.
• Population density poses significant future challenges.
• Humans have historically found solutions to problems.
• Optimism is essential for navigating future uncertainties.

Episode Summary

The equally erudite and jovial Robin Dunbar joins Jef Szi and the How Humans Work Podcast for the first of a two part conversation about limits and leaps of social patterns in primates and humans. An Oxford University professor of evolutionary psychology and someone with a facile grasp of multiple sciences and histories, Professor Dunbar offers us a fascinating account of the social roots of human nature.

In part 1—The Chemistry of Connection—we dive deeply into the endorphin system and the how it functions to stabilize social bonds in groups. We come to see freshly how critical a role endorphins play in our day to day reality. Drawing on his rich understanding of touch, primates, and the wildly comprehensive health benefits endorphins, Dunbar illustrates the connections between chemistry, evolution, and the roots of social blueprint—translating it into the very familiar ‘raw feels’ of relationships that inform how we see, think, and feel about the world.

In particular, Robin clarifies how and why social grooming assists us in dealing with unique social stresses that accompany a group survival strategy that primate species have. Further, Robin mirthfully shows us the unique elements of the human social tool kit, which activates social glue of endorphins without the time intensive work of touch. Indeed, the social tool kit of humans relies on the beautiful elements of laughter, dancing, singing, feasting, storytelling, and rituals to foster social cohesion.

The Chemistry of Connection helps us in on our search for to understand what Social Cohesion is and how we can more successfully find it. Thank you Robin, it was a brilliant blessing to learn so much about human nature and our human story with you!

*****

About: Robin Dunbar: Professor Dunbar is Emeritus Professor of Evolutionary Psychology at Oxford University. His work in the Experimental Psychology department at the Magdalen College is concerned with ‘trying to understand the behavioral, cognitive and neuroendocrinological mechanisms that underpin social bonding in primates (in general) and humans (in particular).’ Robin is the author of several books, including The Social Brain, Human Evolution, and Friends: Understanding the Power of Our Most Important Relationships. Professor Dunbar is known for advancing the Social Brain Hypothesis with Dunbar’s Number.

Episode #47Takeaways

• Sociality is a key evolutionary adaptation for survival.
• Group living helps solve problems of reproduction and defense.
• Primates invest heavily in maintaining social relationships.
• Social grooming triggers the endorphin system, promoting bonding.
• Humans have developed social tools like singing and dancing to bond.
• The endorphin system acts as a natural antidepressant.
• Addiction to opiates can diminish social engagement.
• Oxytocin plays a role in mother-infant bonding and romantic relationships.
• Endorphins provide pain relief and promote feelings of well-being.
• The evolution of sociality is complex and multifaceted. Endorphins enhance social bonding and immune function.
• Quality friendships are crucial for mental and physical health.
• Five close friends are optimal for well-being.
• Social grooming is vital for maintaining relationships.