In his classic book How Soccer Explains the World, the Atlantic staff writer Franklin Foer theorized that the sport was a mirror of the world, particularly in its shift from tribalism to interdependence. More than two decades after the book came out, the world is different in many ways, but he says the title still holds true. 

Foer joins to discuss the World Cup. Who he’s excited to watch. How the global game has changed over the years. And how this year’s World Cup offers global audiences a gentler form of nationalism—one that we may not be used to lately, and may indeed learn from.

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