In early 2000s Hollywood, Ilene Chaiken did the seemingly impossible, co-creating and running a hit TV show entirely about lesbians and queer women. But the iconic television writer, producer and occasional director is no one-hit wonder. Caroline and Cristen talk to Ilene about navigating toxic male egos, tokenization and tough audience feedback on her way to creating all sorts of genre-breaking TV shows that you've definitely watched.

Unladylike: A Field Guide to Smashing the Patriarchy and Claiming Your Space is available now, wherever books and audiobooks are sold. Signed copies are available at podswag.com/unladylike.

Follow Unladylike on social unladylikemedia. Subscribe to our newsletter at unladylike.co/newsletter. And join our Facebook group!

This episode is brought to you by Pact [wearpact.com with code UNLADYLIKE], ThirdLove [ThirdLove.com/unladylike], Vistaprint [Vistaprint.com, promo code UNLADYLIKE50], Modern Ruhles and The Sexual Happiness Podcast by Lovehoney [lovehoney.com].

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.