In early 2000s Hollywood, Ilene Chaiken did the seemingly impossible, co-creating and running a hit TV show entirely about lesbians and queer women. But the iconic television writer, producer and occasional director is no one-hit wonder. Caroline and Cristen talk to Ilene about navigating toxic male egos, tokenization and tough audience feedback on her way to creating all sorts of genre-breaking TV shows that you've definitely watched.

Unladylike: A Field Guide to Smashing the Patriarchy and Claiming Your Space is available now, wherever books and audiobooks are sold. Signed copies are available at podswag.com/unladylike.

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This episode is brought to you by Pact [wearpact.com with code UNLADYLIKE], ThirdLove [ThirdLove.com/unladylike], Vistaprint [Vistaprint.com, promo code UNLADYLIKE50], Modern Ruhles and The Sexual Happiness Podcast by Lovehoney [lovehoney.com].

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