"I had a bet with some folks during an engagement a couple of years ago … that if I ever say 'SAFe says' then I have to do 10 burpees. That's the rule because it's not about dogma. It's about how can we facilitate conversations and find different ways to explore things." In this episode, Adam talks to Tim Jackson, SPCT and Agile coach, who actually learned about Agile and product management from being in a band. The two discuss topics including why it's important to be pragmatic when implementing frameworks like SAFe, the value of effective discovery to understand the real problems and goals before jumping into a solution, and the distinction between consulting and coaching and how to be aware of your own limitations. Like what you hear? Connect with Tim on LinkedIn. Explore SAFe courses here.