I Survived Theatre School

Intro: Nightmare, revisited.
Let Me Run This By You: Gina's petty bullshit.
Interview: We talk to the co-Artistic Director of Steppenwolf Theatre, Glenn Davis, about the Stratford Festival, King James, You Got Older, The Christians, being a producer with Tarell Alvin McCraney, Anna D. Shapiro, Audrey Francis, Rajiv Joseph, Alana Arenas, coming from a political family, pay equity, DEI, Seagull, Downstate, regret.
FULL TRANSCRIPT (unedited):
2 (10s):
And I'm Gina Polizzi. We

1 (11s):
Went to theater all together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand it.

3 (16s):
Years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it

1 (20s):
All. We survived theater school and you will too. Are we famous yet? Yeah, because the Handmaid's tale came true since we last talk.

2 (36s):
Oh my God. I was just preparing to say to you my new favorite party question, not that I ever go to parties is what country are you going to move to when they ask you to be a handmade? Because I think the trick is the timing, you know, like there's going to be a point of no return,

1 (52s):
Right? You could

2 (54s):
Go to,

1 (54s):
Yeah, I guess I could, I feel like things might be worse there in some ways, but not eventually. Maybe not like now you're right. It's a timing thing, because right now it might be worse. But in about, within a couple of years, it could be better. So you're right. It's a timing thing. So maybe the idea is to like get passports. Well, the problem is when you get one passport, you have to turn in another, I think, unless you're a secret double agent and doing illegal things, like, I don't know that you can be a duel. Oh, I'm confused. We need, that's what we need a guest on that knows about passports.

2 (1m 32s):
Well, I don't know anything about passports, but I will say I, the reason that I would be allowed to have dual citizenship in Italy is because I can prove, you know, that my ancestors came from there. So I probably the same thing is true for you

1 (1m 50s):
Only

2 (1m 50s):
Have to go back one generation immigrants lady

1 (1m 54s):
Over here.

2 (1m 55s):
Right?

1 (1m 55s):
Right. Yeah. It's interesting. I, yeah, I, there are a lot of, I mean, this whole thing has been this whole overturning Roe vs. Wade has been, it has been horrific. And also because I've come from things from this and as you do too, like the psychological lens is trauma lens. I'm like, okay. The reactions, especially on social media have been wild. So what I'm noticing is it's even more hand Handmaid's tailie in that people then other women aren't then sort of policing other people's responses to this.

1 (2m 37s):
Meaning people are like, well, I don't know why you're shocked. So instead of saying, yes, you can have your reaction. People are mad that women are shocked. Other women are like, well, what did you think was going to happen? We, and I'm like, okay, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. This is part of the deal. Like let people have their responses, let them, so I am not shocked, but that does not mean that it hurts any less or that it, it is my job to tell someone that their outrage is not justified or not appropriate.

2 (3m 15s):
I mean, that's like, that's like telling a little kid, well, your dad hits you every time he gets drunk. What's why are you so surprised? You know, it's like, well, that doesn't make it hurt any less. That doesn't make me any less fearful. The feeling that I have in my body right now is the feeling that I had on election night in 2016. You know, I don't know if I ever told you my story about that, but just like every other reasonable person in the world, I completely assumed Hillary Clinton would win. And I wore my little pants version of a pantsuit to vote. I came home and I had, I didn't invite anybody over, but I made, I had like snacks, like it was a super bowl. And I put up a big piece of paper like that paper we wrote on when we were doing our, our TV show and with a map and I was gonna, I was marking the electoral votes, teach my kids about the electoral college.

2 (4m 10s):
And it's like, and it's just starts going, okay, well, that's not, that's not too bad. And then, and pretty early on, I realized what was happening. And I became immediately exhausted. And I went up to my bed and I fell asleep. And in the middle of the night, I rolled over to check my phone and I saw the confirmed, the worst had happened. And now I have that feeling again. I have that feeling of like, there's no hope.

1 (4m 40s):
This

2 (4m 40s):
Is, this is all bad.

1 (4m 43s):
I, I, I totally hear you. I, miles is famous for saying that. I knew that Trump was gonna win. And I did not, of course, but what I knew was when I went to the polls, it was the weirdest thing. There was this old, weird white guy, and this was in Evanston still. And this old, weird white guy in Evanston, which is very, very, very democratic. But he was handing out these flyers that were like very pro-Trump and very like Trump is going to win and he should, anyway, I had this sinking feeling. I was like, oh wait, wait, wait, this is Evanston.

1 (5m 24s):
And this guy is like, really sure. And also he seems like kind of a crack pot, but kind of not. And I, there was the first time at the polls where I was like, oh no, oh no, no, no, no, no. I have a bad feeling about this. And then we went to a friend's house, big mistake for an election night situation. And as the returns started coming in, people started at the party getting drunker. And so getting sadder and getting crazier and saying things like, well that this is fine. Like I'll just move to Italy or I'll just move to. But like, it was like the, the, the denial and the alcohol mixing was really, really, really, really depressing.

1 (6m 8s):
And I was like, I got to get out of here. And so we left before it was called, of course. And, and we, and it was, but I did have this sinking feeling when, when that, when the dude at the, it wasn't at the polls, it was like, I had gone to whole foods afterwards. It's right. And this guy was like putting leaflets on everyone's car that was like, basically get ready for Trump. And I was like in a good way. And I was like, oh shit. If this is happening at Evanston, we've got a problem area. So I wasn't shocked either, but I was very dismayed. And the feeling I have now is that like, literally, I feel like, like I kind of have a migraine today and I feel like I've had a migraine since 1975. That's kind of the feeling I have.

1 (6m 49s):
Like every time something like this happens, I feel like, oh, this feeling again, I have this feeling that I am exhausted and my head hurts and yeah. And then online, it's just a c...

Intro: modern hearing aids are wild, it's always helpful to rate, review, and subscribe.
Let Me Run This By You: Family Court
Interview: We talk to Gary Mills about: Pinnacle Performance Company, Fargo, Trollwood Performing Arts School, drama teachers, Death of a Salesman, Don Ilko, The Mouse That Roared, The King And I, Come Blow Your Horn, Lee Kirk, Ric Murphy, Neil Simon, Last of the Red Hot Lovers, Man And Superman, Sam Shepard, Curse of the Starving Class, John C Reilly, American Buffalo, Pump Up The Volume, Dave Koechner, Brian Dennehy, Dog Boys, Atlantic Theater Company, David Byrne, Vince Vaughn, Jim Ostholthoff, The Spotlight Exercise, A Lie of the Mind, Paul Oakley Stovall, the Queen of England.

Intro: Dinosaurs, collaboration, chickens:roost
Let Me Run This By You: Teal Swan
Interview: We talk to W. Earl Brown about Deadwood, A View From the Bridge, Kentucky, family trauma, Dr. Bella Itkin, Don DePallo, Chris Farley, Wes Craven, David Milch, Gretchen Rennell, Leo Burmester, There's Something About Mary, It's Cold in Them Thar Hills, Hamlet, The Imaginary Invalid, That Championship Season, Amy Pietz, George Czarnecki, transcendence in the theater, Waltz of the Toreadors, Stanislavski, depression, Scream, John C. Reilly.
FULL TRANSCRIPT (unedited): 
2 (10s):
And I'm Gina Pulice.

1 (11s):
We went to theater school together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand.

2 (15s):
At 20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all.

1 (21s):
We survived theater school and you will too. Are we famous yet? Oh my God. You get my name. Okay. So, okay. So

2 (37s):
Wait, wait, wait, hang on before you, I just want to say about dinosaurs. I have to give a shout out to somebody that I know. I, I, I know a man named Larry Greeley. Who's I'm not sure how old he is, but he's older than me by a lot. And he just decided one day that he was never going to stop keeping pace with technology because he did not want to be behind the times. And so he's one of these elderly people who you don't have to worry like, but do you have email? He stays on top of it. And also he stays on top of how the culture is changing and he, he adapts and that's like, I'm not saying that's easy to do, but it's so necessary.

2 (1m 22s):
And I'm

1 (1m 22s):
Grateful for people

2 (1m 24s):
Who, who don't become dinosaurs, but it go ahead.

1 (1m 27s):
No, that's exactly it. You, you choose and you and I talk about this all the time. Is it raining there?

2 (1m 36s):
No.

1 (1m 36s):
No. Oh, I hear, I hear tapping. Okay.

2 (1m 41s):
Hmm.

1 (1m 42s):
But it actually sounds really nice anyway.

2 (1m 45s):
Oh

1 (1m 45s):
Yeah. I kinda like it

2 (1m 46s):
Actually actually let me turn it off when I'm editing,

1 (1m 51s):
It sounds like the rain, but it's not, and you'll know, so, okay. And that'll know the shit out of you. Okay. So you said it and you know, to podcast listeners sometimes before the, the talking, we have a talk. And so I, we can say all the things in the names, but suffice it to say, we were just talking about how yes we do the work. It is hard work. It's hard when people call you on your shit. And when you, and when, or when I have to realize, oh, I am using terms that are offensive. And I am disconnecting from the people that I am are in my life. That is not okay with me. How do I adapt? It's very fucking hard. I've spent a lot of money and time in therapy, doing it for my own personal growth work about my family.

1 (2m 36s):
I've spent a lot of time with my husband doing it. It's not easy, but here's the thing. Like, I think it's the only way to live and to not feel obsolete and not feel left behind. So I like to say to like, you know, I know it's adapt or die, but for me, it's like collaborate or fucking die

2 (2m 56s):
A men speak on it. And I, I'm always so surprised that like in this field, which I just feel it's so obviously meant to be collaborative. Like I just don't know. What's the big surprise here. Y Y you know, I was saying to my husband, like why as the student, or as a school, go through all of the effort that it takes to go through this to ostensibly be able to snap into an ensemble, to a group, and then lead people to believe that they're alone in having graduated and not having success immediately or deciding, you know, you want to further refine what your idea is of being an artist.

2 (3m 43s):
I mean, there's absolutely, it's, it's, I'll go so far as to say it's unconscionable that the schools, would it set you up for that in such a way that you felt like you were because also PS, it's great PR for you as a school when everybody can say, oh, not only is it a great program, prestigious, whatever, but going there gives you entree into a community that's like robust and happening. And

1 (4m 10s):
Yeah. I mean, I think that what we have here is a re and we talk about this on the podcast, a reckoning, a forced reckoning, where you've got people saying, Hey, if you don't change you're out. But then the other part of that is how do we, or people in power positions or positions where they do sort of can implement change? How do you help people change? That is the, and you and I are therapists, former therapist. So we know the challenges of helping people change and we're fucking equipped.

1 (4m 51s):
And it's hard. So it is so hard because what they feel like is that they're going to die. If they have to change and a part of them will die, but, and it's really scary and nobody likes it. And I, you know, I will tell, and I've told this story before about my mom, you know, sitting with her, she could not access sadness. She could access anger, accessing sadness to her apparently was like admitting horrible things. Right. And that horrible things probably have been done to her and that she had done horrible things. So we're sitting at this restaurant crossroads on Chicago avenue after my dad died. And I just said to her, you look so sad and it no judgment.

1 (5m 34s):
I mean, I was sad. I was crying all the time. I said, you look so sad. I'm so sorry. And she slammed her glass down in front of everybody at the restaurant. And like almost broke. Thank God. It didn't break. She wouldn't hurt herself. And she said, I screamed almost. I think it was like almost a scream. I am not sad. I'm angry. And then walked out of the restaurant. And I thought, holy shit, this woman educated with it. Hip funny in therapy, all the things boats, right. To public, you know, like Democrat, like fucking, I cannot admit that. She said, how do we expect white, old men to admit that they are, that they need to change.

2 (6m 23s):
That, that at that time is over now and run a new time. I so appreciated what Dave does. Small Shan said in the video that you s...

Intro: Boz is done taking care of people and also she booked a national commercial. Did Gina use the word fatuous correctly?
Let Me Run This By You: Tread documentary, tales of revenge.
Interview: We talk to Severance's Tramell Tillman about the University of Tennessee, ongoing racial disparities in conservatories, wanting to be an orthopedic surgeon and trying advertising before realizing he was meant to be an actor, Xavier University of Louisiana, Hunters with Al Pacino, Howard University, graduating Summa Cum Laude from Jackson State University, Alpha Phi Alpha fraternity, Dr. Mark G. Hendersen, mentors, Jed Diamond, The 25th Annual Putnam County Spelling Bee, micro and macro racial aggressions, The Great Society at Lincoln Center, Brian Cox, the unknown harrowing adventures that sometimes accompany auditions and callbacks, making Ben Stiller laugh, Dan Erickson, being self-possessed, Rachel Tenner, Tigran Babadjanian, having the biggest break of your life two months before a global pandemic, Sarah Edwards, Doug Ellin's Ramble On pilot with Kevin Dillon, Kevin Connolly of Entourage.
FULL TRANSCRIPT (unedited):
2 (10s):
And I'm Gina Pulice

1 (11s):
We went to theater school together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand.

2 (15s):
At 20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all.

1 (21s):
We survived theater school and you will too. Are we famous yet?

3 (35s):
Tell us

1 (37s):
I, and she'll never listen to this. So I had like this really hard thing with my sister in terms of, oh, it's just hard. Family stuff is hard. You know, I am just really working hard in therapy to work through some of the trauma that I experienced. And some of it is directly related to things that my sister did. And I'm not saying I didn't do shit either. I'm not saying that I am saying that I don't want to go to Chicago for two to four, my niece's graduation. And I told her, and my niece is like, don't come, I'm moving there in two months. Don't I'm

3 (1m 14s):
Thinking she's coming

1 (1m 15s):
To LA. My sister wanted me there for her, but here's the thing in order for that to happen, you have to have, as we know, emotional shit in the bank for someone to want to come and do the thing for you, when the person graduating doesn't want you there or doesn't care. And it's not enough, I don't have it in me. And I, and I just said that cause, and I said, if you want to talk, she said, you know, it's been on my heart to it's all texts. It's never a call, but on my heart to tell you that I'm really sad that you're not coming. And I said, oh, we're opening the door to what's on our heart. Okay, great. I had been working through all this shit in therapy. And if you want to talk about it, great, if not, but just suffice it to say, it's not a good time for me to come.

1 (2m 0s):
I am dumb taking care of people. I just, I love California. I will get on a plane for certain things. If you needed me to get on a plane, I would be on a plane in two seconds. If you Sasha and Chrissy needed me, I would go on a plane. But I am not because there's stuff in the bank account of love and life. I get it. I trust it. I have been taken care of. And so I am willing now to take care of back, but you, I I'm. So I'm just so like, yeah, I'm done. I'm done trying to take care of people that have, that have done no caretaking. Like I can't, I'm not going to do it

3 (2m 38s):
To get

1 (2m 39s):
It's that how life is. So she, she, she did not write back. She did not write back and that's okay. That is okay. Like I, you know, it's interesting. It's like, oh, people want to talk about feelings. Oh, wait, I could sit. I love talking about feelings. Let's go. But what I'm not gonna do is pretend.

3 (2m 56s):
Yeah. And honestly, like, without really knowing whether this is true, I just feel like sometimes when people say things like it's been on my heart, I just feel like you're just aping something that you heard, somebody else say you don't even really know what that means. Like if you really took a minute to look at what's on your heart, you know, you might, instead of it just being like, I'm disappointed in something you did, you would really be trying to

1 (3m 20s):
Figure out why

3 (3m 21s):
The dynamic that led to this situation

1 (3m 24s):
Anyway. So I just have to do what I have to do, you know? So, okay. So the, the, the commercial was really fun. So part of the,

3 (3m 35s):
I think, believe that was fun. Like, you know, that's the thing that you don't really expect us to be as fun,

1 (3m 40s):
Super fun. And I'll tell you why it is completely not about as we know the thing that's happening. It is about what is happening inside of us while we're doing the thing. And I really well, first of all, you know, to be very transparent, like there's no lines. So my phobia is about forgetting lines and being ashamed and then wanting to die and having the whole production throw like pitchforks at me. Right? Like that is my, so there's no lights. So I know that that's not going to happen. So like, I'm starting from a better place. And then my, you know, it's, it's an early call, which is great for me. Cause then you don't sit around and think, and everyone was lovely.

1 (4m 20s):
Like everyone, because I was reflecting back to my theater school time. Right. And my first job out of theater school was working on early edition. Oh no. ER was the first one, I think an E R was a nightmare for me, because of all the things we talk about on this podcast, I was insecure. I was a jerk because I was insecure, but mostly I was just straight up so insecure that everything I did was tinge with a horrible, like feeling right. And that comes through like, no people feel that shit. Right. So even if you hide it, so I don't have that now. Oh, I might have, if we hadn't done this podcast and I might have, if there were a lot of lines and like, I was really felt pressure, but what I felt was like, oh, I, I, it was my first experience in a long time of feeling like I am a part of a...

Intro: Gina is unwell. The Staircase series and The Staircase dramatization, the impact of having to hide one's sexuality, 
Let Me Run This By You: Boz booked a national commercial! Jodi Sonenberg, Mickie Paskal, Tread documentary.
Interview: We talk to Sumie Takashima about the salvation that some people find in drama, The Hangar Theatre, Tisch, moms, hoarding, Chicago.
FULL TRANSCRIPT (unedited):
2 (10s):
And I'm Gina Pulice

3 (12s):
The theater school together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand

2 (15s):
It.

4 (16s):
Years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all.

3 (21s):
We survived theater school and you will too. Are we famous yet?

1 (34s):
You know, what's going on? Oh, and you're in a new weight. You have a new thing in behind you.

2 (40s):
Yes, I am in my husband's office right now

1 (44s):
At his office away from the house

2 (47s):
I am.

1 (50s):
Oh my God. I bet. Do you want to tell everybody what's happening?

2 (55s):
Everybody's COVID in my house. Do you have

1 (57s):
COVID

2 (58s):
Well, I'm not testing positive for it, but I have symptoms. And when I tell you I didn't sleep one Wayne class night. I mean, like, I didn't, I, this is a level of tired that I haven't felt since I had a newborn baby. I, I, I think I took, I think I took one daytime cough medicine last night. Yeah. Well it said day or night.

1 (1m 24s):
There's usually a different,

2 (1m 26s):
Nobody had said day or night, like, but

1 (1m 31s):
Oh wait, that doesn't make any sense. Okay. Okay. Cause usually when they do that beans, they have

2 (1m 37s):
To keep you a little away.

1 (1m 38s):
They have two sets of pills. Is it, was it syrup or pills?

2 (1m 42s):
It was syrup. It was like a deli, right? Yeah.

1 (1m 47s):
No. They had some kind of crack cocaine in there.

2 (1m 50s):
Real surprise.

1 (1m 51s):
Was it that your family was keeping you up? It was that,

2 (1m 55s):
No, it was that. And I didn't cough, which was great, but I didn't sleep like not at all, but that's okay. Because I watched the staircase, the news,

1 (2m 8s):
Toni Collette. Yes. Yes. I think it's great. And it's way more interesting than the actual story. So I don't know, but like I've seen 40 million documentaries on the staircase and this one is creepier and more compelling than any of the dikes. I mean, she's just so good. And like,

2 (2m 32s):
She is so

1 (2m 33s):
Good. And

2 (2m 35s):
Tell me what you think about the whole story itself. Like where do you fall on the line of whether he was guilty or not?

1 (2m 42s):
You know, here's the thing before I saw this version, I for sure. Thought he was guilty for sure. And now I don't know. I don't know. I am. I am completely. I w I don't know. What do you think?

2 (2m 59s):
Well, it's, it's, it's the most, I don't have a word for it, but it's the most of this thing I'm about to describe it's the most. Oh, I definitely think it was not him. Oh, I definitely think it was him. Oh, I definitely think it was not

1 (3m 15s):
Because

2 (3m 15s):
Every little twist and turn that comes up, it's like really? I think it is. I think the reason it is so vexing and perplexing is because it is a one in one Google Plex chance that the same person would be there for altar. I really don't think he killed her,

1 (3m 41s):
But it's like, yeah, the lady in Europe and all that shit, it's like, wait a minute. He's so fucking unlucky. Or he's like evil. And he just draws evil near him.

2 (3m 54s):
I got to say, I mean, not like I know, but I don't get evil vibes from him. I really don't. I think he's like a nice guy.

1 (4m 2s):
And if you watch interviews of the guy, like, you know, he had some weirdness, but here's the thing. You fucking interview my ass after something like, you're gonna be like, lock her up. She's fucking bonkers. So like, you know what I mean? Like if they interviewed me and after something bad happened, like some God forbid something happened to miles, right. And they're interviewing me and they listened. They go back and listen to our fucking podcast. They're going to be like,

2 (4m 30s):
Oh, this is great. This is exactly. I totally wanted to ask you that we're

1 (4m 34s):
Going to jail. We're going to jail.

2 (4m 37s):
If you, for whatever reason, committed a heinous crime today. And we were watching the docu-series about you. What would be the things that the audience would be going to see? She totally did it. Like, what would be these,

1 (4m 50s):
The, the, the, well, I've just seen, like how I evaded the law with my student loans. And I was like, I have a lawyer, how we talk about how, like, basically you should get away with basically anything you can get away with because we're an end-stage capitalism. They're like, oh, she did it the way I talked shit about like my family. They're probably like, oh yeah, like she was, she had a traumatized childhood. So she's like getting re oh my God. It just never

2 (5m 17s):
Snap. She

1 (5m 18s):
Snapped. She couldn't take it.

2 (5m 21s):
Well, here's what people would say about me. Well, she was never very friendly. She was really pretty cold. Actually had people in my town would be like, I knew it. I knew there was something about her that I just didn't like,

1 (5m 38s):
That's the kind of, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Because you have this way of coming off like that, even though it's not, it is not, it is not, I don't see it like that now. But when you talk about it, I'm like, oh yeah, I could kind of see. Yeah. But not really. I don't know.

2 (5m 54s):
It's that old thing of, you know, every, I used to always have the experience that people would say to me when I first met you, I thought you were a real bitch, but now, you know, now

1 (6m 4s):
Got it all. But I think I met you when you were really young.

2 (6m 7s):
We were really young and, and it just takes me a while to, to warm up to people. But anyway, yeah. Check it out. People, if you haven't seen the staircase series, I mean, I watched the documentary too, but the series is,

1 (6m 21s):
It's much more compelling and it's also just like art. It's like the story itself, the documentary is kind of boring. You're like, okay. And then this guy in his Vietnam history. Right. And that weirdness

2 (6m 33s):
Purple heart

1 (6m 34s):
Like that, maybe that, yeah. That's when I was like, oh, he's, nobody's just kind of a weird ego. He is, he's got us low self-esteem. He picks wives that are like, well, the second one, especially the high powered in some way,

2 (6m 49s):
I think too, we underestimate, especially now the impact of having to hide your sexual identity, that it I'll just say people who haven't done terrible things and have had to hide their sexual identity, deserve a purple heart because the aggression and the, and the

1 (7m 12s):
Self-loathing and the frustration and the, and the, it must feel torturous. Just torture us

2 (7m 19s):
Heartbreaks. Whenever I think about like the person, who's just like thi...

Intro: Final Draft is conspiring against us, Beastie Boys' Adam Horowitz, Doris the dog loves the vet, Jim Croce, The Cure.
Let Me Run This By You: storytelling, Risk Podcast, The Moth
Interview: We talk to the creator and producer of You're Being Ridiculous, Jeremy Owens, about offending people, porn, Samantha Irby, Roosevelt University, University of Arkansas, The URTAs, King Lear, Greg Vinkler, Barbara Gaines, Plautus' The Rope, P.F. Changs, Kyogen, Threepenny Opera, Steppenwolf, Brene Brown, Marianne Williamson.
FULL TRANSCRIPT (unedited): 2 (10s):
And I'm Gina Pulice.

1 (11s):
We went to theater school together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand.

3 (15s):
At 20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all.

1 (21s):
We survived theater school and you will too. Are we famous yet?

2 (34s):
Yeah.

1 (35s):
It was one of these things where it's like, final draft will not let you restart your computer. I'm like, fuck you. Final draft. What did you ever do for me? Final draft writer, duet. They're all, they're all plotting against me,

2 (47s):
But what is, what is, what does final draft have to do with your camera working on this?

1 (53s):
So in order to, to be okay, the bottom line is I need a new computer. Okay. Let's start there second. Okay. That's the first level of problems. It's like the deepest level. And then we, if we go up a little bit into the level of problems, it is that final draft that I might camera in order to use my camera. Sometimes I have to restart my computer because it's so old. Right. So I need to restart,

2 (1m 19s):
You know, I want to do any one thing in the morning I got, are really rev my engine.

1 (1m 26s):
So like, I'm like, okay, well, in order to restart the computer, it's like not letting me restart it because final draft is this because probably final draft is so advanced and my computer is so Jack.

2 (1m 39s):
Totally. And that's how they get you mad. I feel like they all conspired to be like, okay, well let's make it. So this will work on this version. So then,

1 (1m 49s):
So anyway, I see you, you look great. I look like shit. So it's probably better my camera's up.

2 (1m 57s):
So a couple of things I keep forgetting to ask you on here, about how, how did it come to be that you were chatting in the parking lot with Adam Horowitz about your dogs, Volvo.

1 (2m 12s):
We never talked about that.

2 (2m 14s):
We did not.

1 (2m 15s):
Okay. So I rule up, so my dog, Doris, who everyone knows that listens to the podcast and by everyone, I mean, whoever listens to the podcast, you know what I mean? So hopefully it's growing and growing, listen and rate the podcast. Anyway, the point is I roll up to the vet, which I do oh about every other week, because my dog is a very high maintenance. And so she's just so she of course had an ear infection. Cause she has these huge ears that collect all this bacteria. So I roll up and there's an eye and because it's COVID and everything, you have to park outside and wait, but because it's LA all the windows are down and everyone's car and there's this dude sitting in his Kia has electric Kia.

1 (2m 59s):
Well,

2 (2m 59s):
My key.

1 (3m 0s):
Yeah, I know. I know. I did not recognize this human being. He looked like my husband, like fifties gray, maybe had glasses on.

2 (3m 13s):
Why would you like all our knowledge of them is when they were so, so young. Right,

1 (3m 18s):
Right. So young. And I like didn't, you know, keep up with the beast. So it was like, I had other things to do, you know? So I was doing other things. So I'm, I'm like trying to corral Doris out of the car. She's crazy. She's trying to get out. She loves the vet. The backdrop is my dog

2 (3m 35s):
Loves the,

1 (3m 36s):
Oh my God. She races towards the vet with a fury that is unmatched, loves it. I

2 (3m 43s):
Never once heard of this in my entire life. So

1 (3m 45s):
She's really, really excited about the bet. So she's an extra crazy. And I get her out of the carrier to let her sniff around in the parking lot. And I see this gentleman who is the interesting thing about him is that his leg is out the window. Like he's like resting his leg. And I'm like, well, that's kind of weird for like an older dude, but whatever, it's, it's LA like, you know

2 (4m 8s):
That sound's going to say, I imagine that kind of thing happens in LA.

1 (4m 11s):
Yeah. And plus he's probably weighed been waiting and waiting for his dog forever. And so, cause you, you have to wait out there, like they don't want you to leave in case they need you and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Okay, fine. So I, and I say, and he says, oh, a cute dog. And I'm like, oh, she's a pain in the ass. And then he's like, what's her name? And I'm like, oh, her name is Doris. And he's like, oh, that was my mom's name. And I was like, oh, that's interesting. And then we talked about the origin of Doris, cause it's from a Jim Croce song. And Jim Croce is someone, my husband adores the singer. The folks there yeah. Died when he was 29. Looked like he was about 60. When he died.

2 (4m 47s):
He was 29.

1 (4m 49s):
Yes. You know, he looks like David Abbott, Holly, if you ever look at me

2 (4m 56s):
Like a hole, I see it.

1 (4m 59s):
But just bringing it back to the old theater school. So, so yeah. And so he's like, we talked about Jim Croce and he's like, Jim Croce is the first person I remember dying. I had that album. And I said, yeah. And he said, that's in a Jim Croce song. And I said, yes, Leroy brown, Friday about a week ago, Leroy shooting dice. And at the end of the bar sat a girl named Doris and who that girl looked nice. And that's why we named Doris Doris. He was like, I don't remember Doris being in that song. So we get into that. Right. Okay. And then he's like, I'm like, oh, is your dog okay? And he's like, well, she, she, she got a cut on her neck and I'm like, oh shit. And I'm like, is that

2 (5m 38s):
A knife fight in a bar?

1 (5m 39s):
I was like, how did that happen? And he goes, I don't know. But like, you know, since I'm not a doctor, I figured I'd take, bring her to the vet. I'm like good plan, my friend, good plan. So he's like, I'm waiting for him and waiting for her. And I'm like, oh, okay. And then he said, what's wrong with your dog? And I said, oh my God, what? Isn't wrong with my dog? And I said, my dog has a dermatitis of the vulva and an ear infection. And he's like, wait, what? And I'm like, yes, she just she's out. She's got a l...

Intro: David Schwimmer, Zazie Beetz, Grace Gummer, and Joe Sikora teach us about sexual harassment,
Let Me Run This By You: I think a ghost is peeing in my basement. Fulling mills, alcoholics, Johnny Depp, Britney Spears.
FULL TRANSCRIPT (unedited):
2 (10s):
And I'm Gina Pulice.

1 (11s):
We went to theater school together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand it.

2 (15s):
20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all.

1 (21s):
We survived theater school and you will too. Are we famous yet?

2 (39s):
Hello? Hello. Hello survivors. This is Gina reporting to you on a beautiful spring day. I hope it is a beautiful spring day wherever you are, or if it's not, I hope it will be very soon. We are guests lists in this episode today, as I reported to a couple of weeks ago should happens. We had recorded a great episode with a lovely person and just their audio didn't record at all. You know, just one of those things like internet gremlins, bloody body boss. So we're going to re up with him at some point, but we do have coming down the pike, a few really great episodes, including Glen Davis, the director of Steppenwolf theater company and Trammel Tillman, the actor who plays Mr.

2 (1m 28s):
Mel chick and severance. And if you listen to this podcast, do you know how much I love severance? I'm really, really excited about that one also Sumia Taka Shima. So we've got some really fantastic interviews lined up. I hope you will be tuning in and the upcoming weeks. And just another note to say, thank you so much for your ongoing support and listenership. We really love doing this podcast. Love making it for you. So we love that you enjoy listening to it. And if you haven't already, you should check out our website, undeniable writers.com and our social media.

2 (2m 14s):
We're on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. Do you think we should get off of Facebook? Well, do you think we should get on Facebook? Do you think we should get off Twitter? See, I really want to make the great break. I want to get away from social media, but I feel I'm trapped now. You know, because professionally and personally, it's a great way to connect with a lot of people that I otherwise wouldn't be able to connect with, but it's, it's just this equal parts, terrible and wonderful creation, and we're all completely addicted to it. So, you know, who knows what's who knows how this is gonna work out for us?

2 (2m 55s):
Honestly, it could go either way. We could figure out a way to manage this problem and get on top of it and figure out a way to have enjoyment, but not addiction to social media. Or we could all find ourselves waking up in the middle of a Handmaid's tale. I mean, we are kind of headed that way. It's really looking like people want us to live in Gilliad. And for whatever reason, I just don't feel like people who don't want to live in Gilliad are good at making it so that we don't live in Gilead, myself included. What am I doing? I'm donating money.

2 (3m 36s):
I mean, fat, lot of good. That really does so, wow. This is taking a bad turn. I don't mean for it to do that. I really want to express my love and appreciation for you all and my excitement about our upcoming episodes and my wish that you connect with us on social media, that's killing us all. And I hope you enjoy today's episode, which we are entitling. I'm going to have to accept that. I will always look like Dora the Explorer at some point, please enjoy Hey, sexual harassment training.

2 (4m 41s):
So in order for my son to get his work permit, you know, through, you have to go through this training and it said it would take an hour. And I was thinking like, is that really gonna take an hour? It's like one full hour because it's one of these, did you ever have to do it? Yeah. You can't go to the next slide until

1 (5m 2s):
No, no. They make sure your ass is there for an hour. Gina.

2 (5m 6s):
That's right. And you know, I do have to say it is something I really miss about California. People complain about the bureaucracy and the, you know, and in this training, you know, it's infantilizing in certain ways. But like, if you have to make things accessible to all people and it's like, if it's infantilizing to you or you already know it, consider yourself lucky. Well also about the people that don't already know, it like

1 (5m 37s):
Gina, the, the majority of our world, especially those who harass people are in like infants who need hand-holding. So we need to infantilize them because they're fucking infants and they need this shit from the ground. Like, dude, I love it. Like, I love the fact that they won't, that they won't like fast-forward until you wash them. Because you know, these motherfuckers, the people who really need to watch it would fast forward through the whole thing and think they don't need it.

2 (6m 9s):
Yeah. I mean, maybe we actually need to be infantilizing. I am often accused of, You know, expecting too much from people, you know, like I just, the number of times somebody says to me, yeah. But I just don't think most people will understand that or, you know, think about it that way. Anyway, I completed it. And it was so the one you saw did it have like David Schwimmer and Zazie Beetz and Gracie Gummer I guess that was so sweet. And Joseph Cora,

1 (6m 48s):
Cora Joseph. I actually watched it with miles when miles, my husband had to do it for his new job. And I was like, I know all the And they must pay so much. I mean, like I either they're doing it for free or,

2 (7m 4s):
Oh, I assume they were doing it for free. I assumed it was like, we're doing this well. Cause it was through rain, rain made the videos. So I would assume that

1 (7m 13s):
People

2 (7m 14s):
Aren't asking rain to pay them

1 (7m 16s):
Like a million dollar

2 (7m 18s):
Scale or whatever.

1 (7m 21s):
No, my fee is actually 1.3 million for this sexual harassment for

2 (7m 27s):
Video, the second video

1 (7m 28s):
And tire rape video. Yeah. You're going to pay me anyway.

2 (7m 33s):
Hey, how are you? I love your crushed blue velvet.

1 (7m 37s):
Thank you. I, yeah, my, my standard thing now is like, I literally have like 10 meetings a day, which is hilarious. So a lot of it is my students getting ready to launch. So a lot of it is really motivated and highly stressed, 22 year olds that are like, ha who? And I love it. And I love meeting with them and they also are, you know, just exactly where we were the same thing of like, and in fact, a lot of them, yeah. They're ahead of where we were, because at least they know there's a fucking problem,

2 (8m 18s):
Right? Yeah. There, they don't necessarily have their head all the way up inside of the crevice of their ass. Like I did. Exactly. Well. That's cool. Yeah.

1 (8m 29s):
So I'm doing that. And like, I don't know. There was something I thought if you, I feel like I haven't talked to you in so long.

2 (8m 36s):
I agree. Well, I think it's because you have so many meetings. You're busy all day long. Thank goodness you have your new fancy office. How's it working?

1 (8m 44s):
I do. It's working great. We haven't, I'm in the focus room now because we don't have our rug yet. And our rug will mask all the sound. And also, yeah, I didn't to be in a booth. So we have...

Intro: Leak It All, the gumbo of bad decisions.
Let Me Run This By You: Overcoming insecurities, chasing hope, staying curious, and Marilyn Monroe. 
Interview: A Maze by Rob Handel, Just Theatre, New College of Florida, Asolo Repertory Theatre, SF State, playwriting MFAs, Attempts on Her Life by Martin Crimp, Soho Rep, North Oakland, The Civilians, Yale, UCSD, Lincoln Center Directors Lab, underground poker games, the NYC Tombs, Playwrights Foundation, Annie Baker, Sam Hunter, Zakiyyah Alexander,  Soho Rep Writer Director Lab, Adam Bock, Shotgun Players, Anne Washburn, The Bacchae, Eureka Day, left wing anti-vaxxers, Ben Brantley, writing during the pandemic, a pilot about a tech start up run by altruistic vampires, Mike Schur, What We Do In The Shadows, Aurora Theatre Company.

Intro: It's a bad idea not to pay your student loans, The Odd Couple, Severance, chicken nugget bowls, 
Let Me Run This By You: Google is bullying Gina. What's your email archive strategy? We are all mostly old because the window of youth is shockingly short. Some of your dreams are NOT out of reach.
Interview: We talk to T.J. Harris about coming to acting later in life, having a background in business, having a close-knit cohort, Title IX investigations, being the victim of racial profiling while at school, the paradox of slightly shy kids being told they were shy so often that they become even more withdrawn, Our Lady of Kibeho, Neighborhood 3: Requisition of Doom, Sean Parris, Chris Anthony.
FULL TRANSCRIPT (unedited):
3 (10s):
And I'm Gina Pulice.

4 (11s):
We went to theater school together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand it.

3 (15s):
20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all.

4 (21s):
We survived theater school and you will too. Are we famous yet?

1 (34s):
Anyway, so I had to like get him out of the house and like men are slow and I just, it's just, it's a really no win situation. So anyway. Hello. Hello Busy. I've been busy. We've all been busy.

2 (51s):
We have been doing the damn thing. Haven't we?

1 (55s):
Yeah.

2 (56s):
Yeah. I have spent the last, what feels like a week. Yeah. I think it's been a week simply reviewing every single dollar 20, 21, like literally and putting it in a spreadsheet, literally like can donuts, can you

1 (1m 18s):
Keep it because you can write off a lot

2 (1m 20s):
Of new machine. Yeah. That's yeah. That's, that's the point of it is to find everything that, that can be written off, but it's, you know, and I'm hunched and my back and my eyes strain, and it's just like, oh my God, Calgon, take me away.

1 (1m 38s):
Yeah. I mean, I think that taxes are one of those things where if you do them right, and legally it's a lot of work, right? It's like,

2 (1m 47s):
You want to skim and

1 (1m 48s):
Be shady, which I don't recommend, because guess what? The IRS is only job is to get your money. Like, that's their only job. They don't have any other purpose on the planet. So like, if you think that's not their job, you're wrong. But anyway, so if you do it right, like you are, it's a lot of freaking work and it also is painstaking.

2 (2m 12s):
And I, and, and it's painstaking. And I think, you know, to, to, to find a silver lining in it, like, I'm so glad I don't have a full-time job because this is the kind of thing that literally, I don't know how people, when it's, when everybody works, how they do it it's

1 (2m 35s):
Well, you can't. I mean, I think it's, that's why people end up in trouble. Like, that's why people end up trying to skin his scam or not doing them and being like, you know what, I'm going to pass on all this. I'm just going to hope for them. And like, that's what I did with my student loans, because I didn't want to, and that's not even as hard as taxes, but I just like, couldn't cope with the ins and outs of doing the work to defer or like make deals, or like get my payments lower. And thus, I had a sheriff show up at my apartment. Like that is where you're headed. You don't know that story. Oh, all right. So I thought, oh, it'd be really cool to not pay my student loans.

1 (3m 15s):
I mean, I didn't really have the money, but I also didn't realize that my student loans were private student loans. Oh boy. So when they're private, you're in big trouble, because guess what? It's a bank that wants their money. It's not the government who has a million other things to do. Right. So the bank is like, no, we want our money. And I did that. Know that the bank hires the Sheriff's department to serve papers when you are being sued for your private loans. So one day I am N in Rogers park at my thinking, you know, nothing of it. Like I, I owed 50 grand and I to like four different banks. Right. It's always, and they sell them to other people and it's a big scam.

1 (3m 56s):
Right. Okay. Fine. But I'm like going about my business thinking, but feeling bad, but like, feeling like, ah, fuck it. Like, who cares? Well, they care. Wait,

2 (4m 7s):
How long were you not paying them

1 (4m 9s):
For a couple of years? Maybe I just said, forget it in 15, 20, 15. I said, no more. And then in 27, 20 17, I'm literally, I kept getting calls. They started calling miles and I was just the guy just pay no attention. Miles, like pay no attention. And of course he's like so trusting. He was like, okay, I'll pay no attention. I'll compartmentalize. And okay. So one day there's a, our buzzer goes off and I'm like, hello. Cause no one ever. He's like, this is the Sheriff's department. Are you Jennifer Bosworth? And I was like, and then I realized, I really quickly, your mind goes, oh, what have I done wrong?

1 (4m 50s):
Right. And it focuses it on the thing. Cause you know what you've done right. Or what I've done wrong. And I'm like, oh, my here is the PA the Piper or the pied Piper or whoever is coming to collect chickens, home to roost all the things. And I was like, and I just said, I have a lawyer go away. And he goes, no, we just, we just want to give you these papers. Like we have to give you these papers. I'm like, no, I have a lawyer go away. Which is the wrong thing to do.

2 (5m 19s):
What also, what was your logic there? I have a lawyer. Okay.

1 (5m 23s):
There was no logic. I would say it was the opposite of logic is what's going on. So I see that they go away because, and so they're paid by the bank. So they just hire the Sheriff's department to serve people. I did not know that it's like, they, they you're there for hire basically the Sheriff's department. So they go and they serve people and they could not serve me. But then what it did was it was really actually a great kick in the pants because I was like, oh, I have a court date now. So no. So what I did was I said, okay, let me find it. So then I was like, I need a lawyer. So, and then on my 43rd birthday or 42nd, 42nd birthday.

1 (6m 10s):
Yeah. 42nd birthday. I went to the lawyer. I found this lawyer fucking brilliant. I can't remember her name right now. She was like legally blonde. She had these long pink nails and her only job was to get people off student loans and, and either file bankruptcy or figure out a way to talk. The loan people doubt. She was a bad-ass and I went there and I was like crying. And I was like, look. And she was like, oh, $50,000. That's nothing. And I was like, oh, she's like, I got people that I was, you know, 600,000 in medical school loans,

2 (6m 43s):
Medical school, that's

1 (6m 45s):
All. But also she goes, yeah, the private loans they ...

Gina made a terrible lasagne. Boz debunks the myth of chicken. Carl Buddig beef bags, Doritos, smoked soup, Colombian food, HOKAs,
FULL TRANSCRIPT (unedited):
2 (10s):
And I'm Gina Pulice.

1 (11s):
We went to theater school together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand.

2 (15s):
And at 20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all.

1 (21s):
We survived theater school and you will too. Are we famous yet?

2 (34s):
Hello? Hello. Hello survivors. It is. I Gina reporting to you live. I mean, it's live to me, but it's not live to you because you most definitely aren't hearing it in the exact moment. I'm saying it, but you get the idea. It's Monday night, I'm here at my house sitting in my room where I always record when I talked to boss and I'm I'm, I'm coming on here to tell you that. Hmm. Do you know that expression inside baseball?

2 (1m 15s):
I don't understand when people say, oh, that's too inside baseball. Because for me, all I care about is the inside of something. I don't even like baseball. I'd love to be inside baseball. You want to show me where they get the dirt off their cleats. Great. You want to show me what kind of savvy they have to use on their cracked hands from rubbing? Oh, that says this is going to sound sexual. I don't mean it that way, but from holding the bat. Yeah. I want to see that you want to, you want to tell me about contract negotiations? I mean, I want to hear that stuff. I want to hear that stuff more than I want to hear about, or, you know, like actually watch baseball anyway.

2 (1m 59s):
I'm, I'm bringing this phrase up because I've never understood why people, don't, what people think it's bad to be inside baseball. And also by way of telling you that today's episode is going to be a little inside baseball. We record every week. We interview people every week. And at the very beginning, we had so many interviews stacked up that it was months between when we would record somebody and when it actually aired. But once all of that stack got aired, now we pretty much go week to week and that's fine, unless, and until we have a cancellation or two, as the case is for us right now, we had two back-to-back cancellations.

2 (2m 52s):
So one time when we had this, I put, I repaired an old episode, which I thought was really a great episode. And I'm really glad I repaired it. And then a couple of times we've aired episodes with just BAAs and I talking with no interview. And the reason I like to put something up is because personally, when I listened to podcasts and people take a week off, I really hate that. I really hate when a podcast I'm really used to listening to, you know, coming out on a certain day and like, that's the day I'm gonna, Ooh, it's Tuesday. I get to whatever, walk my dog and listen to my favorite podcast.

2 (3m 33s):
I hate it when those people take a vacation, but that's what I did. I took a vacation last week and boss was going to record one solo, but her interview canceled. And then the person that we're supposed to speak to tomorrow canceled. So honestly, we're probably gonna have the same problem next week, unless something magical happens. And we're able to interview somebody else before this weekends and who I'm saying all this to say, we do have an episode today. It is not previously aired material. It is boss and I talking, but it is not an interview.

2 (4m 14s):
And if that's not your jam that I get it, you can, you can just skip this one. Maybe this is not, maybe this is not the one for you, but if you're like me and you are inside baseball and you like things that are inside baseball. And by the way, I mean, it's not like it's inside baseball in the sense that we're talking about, you know, like the platform that we're hosting our podcasts, it's not actually really inside baseball. It's just not, it's just not our typical episode. Anyway, I also want to take this opportunity to think we have actually kind of a surprising number of listeners in other countries.

2 (4m 54s):
And I have never done something that I've always wanted to do, which is acknowledge all of these wonderful listeners. And so I'm going to do that right now. First we have New Zealand and I happen to know the person who listens to us from New Zealand or at least one of the people. And he Sean Spratt. And he went to theater school with us. And one day we'll have him on the podcast, but thank you, Sean Spratt for your listenership. Very much appreciated. We have listeners in Spain, the United Kingdom, Saudi Arabia, Germany, Singapore, Russia. Although not for the last couple of months.

2 (5m 34s):
If you know what I mean. France, Jordan, Nepal, Canada, Australia, Brazil, Israel, Virgin islands, pork bowl, Rico, Mexico, Austria, Sweden, Palestine, the Netherlands, Morocco, South Korea, Japan, Finland. I heard Finland has great coffee. I'd like to go there someday. Bangladesh, Uganda, Slovakia, Poland, Ireland, Indonesia, and BA. Right? Thank you to all of you, whoever you are out there listening to our little podcast. I appreciate you.

2 (6m 15s):
I do. I appreciate you deeply. I am also going to take this opportunity to recognize some fabulous comments that people have left on apple podcasts in the form of reviews. Something. I also greatly appreciate Larkin and Ellis says what a fun show to listen to and to have communion with other theater folks. So many of us survived, thrived or crashed. That's true. Afterschool and hearing tales of everyone's experience brings such humanity to the process. Jen and Gina are delightful and treat each, each guest with such grace, highly recommend. Thank you, Larkin Ellis.

2 (6m 57s):
Next. We have Zoe incredibly warm, funny and fascinating. These hosts get the best out of their guests. If you are involved in any part of the acting business, this will be a fascinating podcast for you. If you went to any theater school, this could be an opportunity for immense healing and processing things you didn't even know needed more attention. I laughed so hard. I cried. It was bad. It was better than cats. Thank you, Sophie. All right, BJP. Oh, that's I know who this is. This is Brian Brian Polak, who has also a great podcast. I mean, he had an episode on ours, but he's the host of the subtext podcast, which is all about playwrights.

2 (7m 38s):
And very interesting. If you haven't listened to it, please do his latest urban. I don't know if it's his actual latest, but one of his most recent ones features Tracy Letts. So that's cool. Anyway, Brian says not only are the interviews always free range and fascinating, but the conversations between Jen and Gina that begin each episode are warm and fun. It's like catching up with old friends every new time. Every time a new episode comes out. Thank you. Brian Love that. Scott says this podcast is such a gift, exclamation point. Anyone who has dabbled in the fine arts can relate to the conversations that the hosts and guests are discussing. I would also go as far as to say, listening to this podcast is like having a free therapist, especially if you are embarking on a career in the performing arts.

2 (8m 25s):
Thank you, Scott. Lovely Scott. Oh, and then here's one I wrote for myself. Yes I did. This is an inside baseball moment. I wrote my own review because I feel at times very desperate to get reviews. So I wrote one for myself. Love the way it is to interrogate the psychological makeup of actors and others who pursue an education at a conservatory. Thank you, Gina....