I Survived Theatre School

Intro: speaking up for yourself, sharing your wins, jealousy
Let Me Run This By You: Boz explains how she maintains having many close friendships, when Boz called an ex 89 times in 4 hours, What About Bob?
Interview: We talk to Brian James Polak (host of the Subtext Podcast!) about taking a circuitous route to playwriting, Marymount University, Keane, NH, opting for a philosophy major, do you need to be reflected by your parents?, being an RA, when his college guidance counselor told him to go to a trade school, early adulthood financial naïveté, Meisner, improv, Jeremy O. Harris, posthumous playwriting.
FULL TRANSCRIPT (unedited):
1 (8s):
And Jen Bosworth from me this and I'm Gina . We went to theater school together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand it. 20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all. We survived theater school and you will too. Are we famous yet? Hello? How are you today? Well, I'm better than yesterday in terms of my, I really spoke up for myself and with my friend and for podcast listeners. I think we did not record this cause we were just having a meeting, but we did record it, but not on a podcast format.

1 (49s):
Anyway, the point is I had a friend that had sort of tried to, or did set a boundary in a really messy way that I did not receive, but, and then I, I was proud of myself. I just called and I like, I it's interesting as I get older, I don't have a charge on things like I wasn't charged about it. I was like, listen, I mean, I was charged about it when I talked to you because that's what you do when you talk things out. But like I just listed, I totally appreciate that you have this issue and you don't want to hear me talk about certain things. Cause that was the whole thing is that she said, you know, it basically comes down to jealousy and envy and I get those things a hundred percent.

1 (1m 33s):
Believe me, if you listen to the podcast, you know, that like all of my theater school experience and until like maybe four years ago was spent basically living in one state of constant, less than feeling and envy. So I don't, but I'm trying not to do that anymore and I'm working on it. So anyway, I just said like, Hey, like here's the thing. If you need to set a boundary, which it sounds like you do to not hear about certain wins of mine, I just need you to know that that's gonna really affect our relationship. And also I've spent, and this is the core I whittled down. I'm trying lately to whittle down to the core issue. And so, because it just saves a lot of time in conversations.

1 (2m 15s):
Like literally it same with pitching, same with anybody like whittle it down. What are you really saying? And what I'm saying is I spent my whole life not feeling like I wasn't allowed to celebrate my wins, which started in my family of origin. I don't want to do that anymore. It's painful. It'll kill me. It lead to depression, anxiety. I'm not doing it anymore. So I said, if we need to take a break in general from chatting for, well, great. I'd much rather do that. Then, then me censor myself. I'm not, I'm not going to do that with people on my free time. Like, I feel like we have to do that in, in professional settings all the time. Or like as adults in, in the world.

1 (2m 56s):
Right. We can't go around saying, I mean, when you can't and you end up in an institution or a jail, so, so, and, and she was totally receptive and was like, oh yeah, I was shocked just because that's not been my experience with people, not her, but people and oh yeah. And myself. And so we're going to, we're going to give it a shot to, to try it again. And then I just said like, literally, I'm not going to look. I everyone's got to do what they need to do, but like, I, I, I L I am not willing to, yeah. Not share to, to hide from people I'm supposedly supposed to be close with.

1 (3m 37s):
Like, I just, it's just not working. It doesn't work out. If it worked out, I would have continued doing what I did my whole life. Well,

2 (3m 46s):
It works out if you're in a people pleasing relationship where all you can get out of it is the satisfaction in any given moment of telling the person exactly what they want to hear. But of course we've long discovered that that is not a great long-term solution because it leads to all of the aforementioned maladies. So good for you.

1 (4m 6s):
Thank you. And, and, and not only does it lead to, you know, certain inevitable death, really it, once you, once I know the, in my heart, it doesn't work. I can't in good faith, keep people pleasing because I don't have the evidence anymore that it actually does anything other than create depression. Like I have that visceral experience. So I, I, I'm not the kind of person, I don't think many people are sociopath aside or psychopaths that like, can pretend. So I I'm like not going to pretend anymore that I can function that way. It's just, it's just a waste of everybody.

2 (4m 45s):
Yeah. And I'm, I'm about to say the world's least profound thing, but it's been profound for me cause I'm just like really getting to it, which is the thing that you run out of steam for, with the people pleasing is just simply the fact that in the effort to please other people, you, you don't please yourself. And so it'd be like trying to fill your gas tank with like Daisy pedals, you know, because somebody wants you to fill it. And it's like, okay, well maybe it'll get somewhere for awhile. But at the end of the day, you still need gas. Like you still need to meet your own needs. You still need to be in charge of your own. I mean, that's it, you need to meet your own needs.

2 (5m 25s):
And so the, the thing that ends up always underneath the people pleasing is, oh, I haven't met my own needs. And funny thing, the needs didn't disappear just because I wasn't, you know, because I chose not to meet them. That's been my thing recently of like, I don't know how I was previously formulating my lack of willingness to take care of myself. I think I was formulating it as like being heroic in some way or being tough in some way, which it just completely isn't, it's just being afraid to like, engage with me and that's, Hey everybody, it's only you at the end.

2 (6m 9s):
So might as well get cozy with you now and figure out how to meet your needs now. So agree. And she received it well. So like, that's the best possible outcome.

1 (6m 21s):
Yeah. She totally received it. Well, we're going to give it a shot, you know, because I talked to you and then I talked to my other friend and my other friend, it just, everyone talks from where they're coming from. My other friend was like, oh, you need to just cut her off. Like you can't ever talk to her again. She's crazy. She's crazy. And like, you, you can't, you that's enough. And I was like, oh man, I could. But like,

2 (6m 45s):
And I can relate to that too. I mean, I can really, because of what that person is saying is like, it's so hurtful, you know? Right. Cause that that's an instinct. We sometimes have somebody hurt us. So they're dead.

1 (6m 56s):
Yeah. And they're crazy. Like write them off as bonkers and you don't have time for it. Here's the thing. I think it's all a wait and see situation. Like, you know, relationships evolve and change. And, and I don't want to like end the friendship right now. I mean, if this continued, of course, but like I give people a chance, you know? But like, yeah. It's so funny.

2 (7m 22s):
C...

Intro: writing comedy, Joss Whedon, unproblematic men, putting public figures on a pedestal, the hierarchy vs. collaboration dialectic.
Let Me Run This By You: White coat hypertension, writing seminars, Boz's success story!, navigating systems for your own benefit.
Interview: We talk to Reduced Shakespeare Company's Austin Tichenor about UC Berkeley, Boston University, law school, surviving a directing MFA.
FULL TRANSCRIPT (unedited): 
1 (8s):
And Jen Bosworth from me this and I'm Gina . We went to theater school together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand it. 20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all. We survived theater school and you will too. Are we famous yet? Sean rock is comedic, true crime, serial killer thrillers. I don't know what that means. Great. I'm getting my popcorn ready to be very specific.

1 (48s):
So, and yeah, so I think that that's, I'm sort of finding my way in terms of like what? So I, I, I felt like, okay, I need to bite the bullet because it's also 30 pages. So it's not a lot like compared to a 60 page. Oh my God. So it's half the, not half the work, but like you have half the real estate, which in some ways is harder in some ways. So anyway, I had this idea and I, I have a friend of mine. Who's a comedy writer and I, I, and we were talking about this idea of these two women, sort of a dumb and dumber, but for women. And so we started, yeah. And we have these conference rooms here and speaking of dumb and dumber. So we have these conference from here with glass walls.

1 (1m 30s):
Right. And there's like dry erase markers. And there's, you can see some kind of old writing on the glass walls. Well, so we're writing, I'm writing in my, you're not supposed to write it in the glass walls. It, in fact does not come off the glass, speaking of dumb and dumber. So then I'm like, so someone knocks on the door and is like, Hey, you guys know that you're not supposed to be writing on the glass walls. And literally I've written on the whole wall. And I'm like, oh my God. So it took me an hour to get off with scrubs and I had to use different rag. Anyway, it's the stupidest thing because there's no other place to write in the room and there's no whiteboards, so there's something wrong here. But so in, in step with, with sort of dumb and dumber, but anyway, so we're writing this like half hour comedy about just two women that are really dumb, but they're not really dumb.

1 (2m 24s):
Of course they're genius in their own way. But I liked the idea of like seeing women. Yeah. Just seeing women do really dumb shit like bridesmaids, you know, like you're like, yeah, like that kind of a thing. So I don't know how it's going to go. And we just started and we're like meeting, you know, once every couple of weeks, but like, it's good for me too. I also, there's a to study comedy. Like I'm never in my life, like I've done a lot of sort of study and research about drama and crime, but nothing on comedy. And there's a course, a million classes and stuff like that, which I'm not taking, but there's also like books and stuff that I always shied away from.

1 (3m 7s):
I think it was scared. Like, I don't know how you feel, but like, I feel like comedy is so hard to do right. That like, I just was scared of it.

2 (3m 16s):
Yeah. 90% of the comedy you see is terrible. I mean, and that's just talking about the stuff that gets made. So yeah, no, it's really a comedy is, as the saying goes, whatever it is, death, death is hard comedies. I forget. There's something about death. Something's harder. Writing comedy is harder than death, but that thing that you were saying about the toxic work environment, I've heard that too. And actually I was just reading the New York article about Josh Sweden.

1 (3m 50s):
Oh my God. Yes. And about the writers in the room and that, that one writer and he's reading or shit, and he's like making fun. I mean, he should be fucking, I mean, I shouldn't say that he should be hurt badly.

2 (4m 4s):
So for people who don't know, Josh Sweden was the showrunner of Buffy the vampire Slayer. And he was heralded as a feminist. I mean, icon practically. In fact, when I first heard that he was not who he appeared to be, I instantly flashed, I had this patient who had endured a lot in her life. Let's just say that. And she was extremely feminist and that was her favorite show. And he was her favorite person. And, and I distinctly remember her saying, he's like one of the only good guys in, in Hollywood, something like that, something to that effect.

2 (4m 53s):
And honestly, what the hell, I mean, please write a profile about unproblematic men. I it's gotten to the point where I'm like, is nobody

1 (5m 5s):
I'm doing the right thing. I just, I mean, you said a brilliant line, like which I'm going to steal and put in my script, which is in, in hold my calls, which is he's one of the Hollywood good guys or something like that. I think we all are. So looking for that, that when someone appears to be that we cling to them desperately in hopes that they will save all other men and it never works. Like they're all problematic. And I think of course we're all problematic all humans, but, but this is a special brand of problematic in Hollywood in creating art in, in showrunning land and also just Hollywood in general.

1 (5m 49s):
So like, this is a very specific type of toxic asshole man. And there are so many, so many. And so I agree, I need a profile about, but see, as soon as that comes out, there's going to be a woman that's like that dude. Fuck.

2 (6m 4s):
Oh, yeah. Right, right. Right. So remember when you were getting your MFA and you were had to watch all those old films and you said they were all written by women. What I never heard is when, why did that change and what was the,

1 (6m 20s):
So nobody, they, they ran out of men, journalists, writers to write the sort of storylines for the new, for new movies. Right. For the new art of cinema. So first they were silent. Right. And then, then there were titles, you know, let people wrote. And those were written by usually at the beginning, mostly journalist men. Right. And like newspaper, men like that, then they literally ran out. I think of men, people that could write. Right. So they, so women started submitting write some under fake names under, but a lot under their real names. And they didn't give a shit because they didn't get credit.

1 (7m 1s):
So nobody cared. They were women. Right. Cause it wasn't, they weren't on the screen. So as writers, so women really took over, like they, they, I think they just took over. Okay. So that was going great until I believe what happened was until the, the money men got involved from New York. Yeah. So it became a business. So then the money men financed the films, bankers and then women, I think like the first world war, right. Was what was, was, well, I don't know,

2 (7m 41s):
1917

1 (7m 43s):
Something like, I don't know. We're, we're, I'm dumb. So, but like around there the men had to go to war and the women had to take care of the kids. Right. So there was no one to there. They couldn't, it transitioned to more stereotypical gender roles and women stopped writing and then it just took over for

2 (8m 2s):
Yeah, I see. Okay. Well you're right. I mean, it's also like, it's fine for you to do all this work as long as you're not taking credit, but when it comes time for everybody to really recognize this as an art form...

Intro: Jen has achieved nirvana: she looks like a serial killer! Farsightedness, migraines, deep work in therapy, all families need case management, Gina navigates an interpersonal conflict in a way that she wouldn't mind if anyone on Twitter read about it.
Let Me Run This By You: Is Adam McKay turning into Michael Moore? Don't Look Up, The Big Short, 
Interview: We talk to Joel Butler about stage management, Blue Man Group, and the benefits of saying no to the actor's life.
FULL TRANSCRIPT (unedited):
1 (8s):
And Jen Bosworth Ramirez and I'm Gina Pulice . We went to theater school together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand it. 20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all. We survived theater school and you will too. Are we famous yet? I can see, I can see, which is so brilliant. You know, like that's important. I didn't realize like, oh my God, I can see you. And my glasses are the same glasses that Jeffrey Dahmer has like, and that wasn't an accident.

1 (49s):
I was gonna say, Dwight Schrute, very similar, a similar style. And I got blue blocker and the anti-glare. So like you, can't straight up just see the screens in my eyeballs, you know, that's good. I can see the most important thing. Like I realized I was living like this. And did you have a headache all the time? And the saddest thing happened at the, at the doctor's office. I mean, sorry. I'm rustling. Okay. The saddest thing happens that wasn't really sad, but so my doctor, my ophthalmologist was this lovely woman. She looked like she was about 12. Like literally, she was like the teeniest loveliest woman. Anyway, she was like, have you had headaches your whole life?

1 (1m 32s):
I'm like, yeah, migraines. And she goes, and I said, and she made this face. You can't our listeners can't see it. I said, what? She goes your period. She said your parents should have taken it. You've been, you've been farsighted for your whole life. You're kidding me. And did you ever go to the eye doctor? And I said, no. They always just relied on the school to see if I could see the Blackboard. And I can see far, I can't see close. She said those migraines may have been like 50% glass. You just needed glasses or you

2 (2m 3s):
Raged.

1 (2m 4s):
You know, it's been a lot of rage lately. And a lot of sadness I've been doing a lot of deep work in therapy and the sadness to the neglect it to the level of neglect. Then I, now I'm realizing that I experienced is, is quite something like, I was like, what? And she goes, she goes, how old are you? And I said, 46. And she goes, when did this? I said, I started having migraines at five. She goes, and they never took you to the eye doctor. And she's like, that is so sad. She was like, she could tell in her face, she was like, oh, that's abusive. Like, she was like, what did they give you for your headaches? I'm like nothing because ibuprofen didn't work. She goes, well, of course, it's not going to work.

1 (2m 45s):
If it's an eye problem, it's also not going to work. I'd be profaned. It's not going to hit.

2 (2m 50s):
Okay. I, I, I, I'm not, I really don't mean to make, make this about me. But when you're telling me this story, I'm imagining how I would feel as you. And I asked you if you felt rage. But then I realized the thing that I would be feeling is embarrassed. Like it was my fault. I was neglected. Okay. You didn't have

1 (3m 11s):
No, I don't have that feeling that it was my fault. I was neglected. I have the feeling of, oh, these like, it is rage. And it's like, oh, they should've probably been chastised. If not given like some kind of ticket, you know, like a ticket from the police saying,

2 (3m 27s):
And we need to have tickets for parents. I, I, back that Eve herself. I'd love to be fine. I'd love for somebody to say, oh, you sent in Oreos with lunch. That's a fine, that's a, that's just like a $3 fine, but still don't, don't send it in Oreos with lunch. I mean, I don't ever do that because I don't send in lunch because I pay for lunch. Right. But the idea being we need, I guess the reason I'm being cheeky, but I guess the reason I'm saying is like, everybody needs to be held accountable. And sometimes we need external means of being held accountable.

1 (3m 59s):
You know, I was talking with my therapist and I really, the feeling is like, someone should have stepped in and said, okay, this family needs help. Like you, you need help like you, but here's the thing. Like, we looked so good from the outside. In so many ways, we had an immigrant success story, right. We had a father who wasn't abusive. We had a, in, in physically abusive in any way or sexually, we had a mom who, you know, we had good-looking, you know, my sister was like really, really above average in all ways. So like, it's so hard. And I know, and I think this is what made the movie, this show addressed.

1 (4m 40s):
It's so hard when a package looks a certain way for us, same with serial killers for us to wrap our head around the fact that something very bad is going on. And we don't want to believe it because it looked so pretty or, or didn't look ugly. Let's just say that. And it's it's, it's it? That is the, the feeling that I've had in therapy recently. It's just that I just long for someone rationally, a rational human being, Tufts stepped in and said, okay, this family needs help. Like, how can we help this family? Like, she's not getting eyeglasses, whether it's, you know, a money thing or, or not wanting to spend the money, or if it's just a, like an oversight overwhelmed.

1 (5m 25s):
My mom was totally overwhelmed with my father was underperforming. Like let's get in there and really try to make a care plan. Or like we needed a case manager, you know, and most families do need some kind of case management in, even if it's light, you know,

2 (5m 43s):
All families do. Do they have that in countries where they have socialized medicine? I bet not. I bet that that's a bridge too far, but I mean a school counselor, I guess, theoretically is supposed to do that. But a school counselor has literally hundreds of students in there, and

1 (5m 58s):
They're not worried about worry about a kid that looks well fed. Isn't ha doesn't have bruises and just literally has headaches. Like that's not a real problem.

2 (6m 8s):
Another example of where an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. Like imagine literally I don't mean to be a whatever overblown about it, but imagine how different your life might've been.

1 (6m 20s):
Yeah. I mean, I was, I had migraines from five years old. I was barfing and like, no one. And I actually didn't actually go to the doctor for them. Cause I think my mom was like, no, that's not a real problem. Like I never went to the doctor until I was 21 for them. And then they did a brain scan and they, they said, no, your brain is fine. And then they just said, it's hormones, which they always say to women. And no one ever said, maybe you're having you need glasses. This is crazy. It's crazy to me. So I'm, I'm grateful. I have them. They're like, they're like changing my, my world in terms of, yeah. I mean, what the fuck? And I chose on purpose to get like the same thing.

1 (7m 2s):
Jeffrey Dahmer has

2 (7m 4s):
Works for you. It really works for, I dunno, maybe it's having to do with the shape of you...

Intro: Boz celebrates an important milestone, hoping for the best and preparing for the worst, when your therapist doesn't talk, when your therapist falls asleep, approach avoidance.
Main Course: We don't believe in resolutions, Danish serial killers, The Chestnut Man, skiing, Elizabeth Holmes, The Real Housewives of Salt Lake City, Sante Fe New Mexico, Heder, control issues, Willie Wonka and the Chocolate Factory, Cobra Kai, reliably good chuckles.
FULL TRANSCRIPT (unedited):
2 (10s):
And I'm Gina poli-sci.

1 (11s):
We went to theater school together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand.

2 (15s):
20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense

1 (20s):
If at all we survived theater school and you will too. Are we famous yet?

2 (35s):
Happy new year. Let's just for a moment for 20, 22. Do we need to

1 (42s):
Please, please? Just like, I mean sort of just like, can we just, I really do sympathize with like, or relate to people or like, don't make any sudden moves. Like, let's just, let's just see how it goes, but, you know, and my mom used to say like, expect the worst hope for the best expect the worst, which is so indicative of why my childhood was probably so confusing. But, but you, you, because really you can't do both. Like I was thinking that we cannot, as humans live in that that's crazy making, so it's sort of like we have to choose and I'm going to choose the hope, but I'm not going to be totally shocked if shit goes wrong.

2 (1m 29s):
Right, right. I mean, I think maybe like an adjustment to that would be, you know, your expectations can strangle you to death. So keep your expectations in check, like yeah. Maybe, you know, hope for the best and, and, and know that, you know, it's just a hope and, and it, and it's not a guarantee. And, you know, so when the shit hits the fan it's, or maybe the better thing is like, everything is as it should be in any given

1 (1m 60s):
The real deal, it's

2 (2m 1s):
The real deal. Which, you know, I I've said that to a few people in my life recently, who've been like, Hmm, no, that's, I'm not doing that. I'm not which I understand. And I relate to it and it's a new concept for me, but that's what I'm trying to do right now is I'm trying to say like, everything is as it should be. And

1 (2m 19s):
I mean, what, what 'cause, if, if, if not, like, I think it's interesting because when I, I remember when I got my master's in counseling psych and I went to this, you know, woo hippy dippy school, and one of the things was, yeah, everything is happening the way it's supposed to be happening. And I remember having this conversation with my sister who was like a real and still sort of is like a social justice warrior type and like, you know, equity type. And she was like, that is not true. Like my students who don't have anything, that's not how it is as it should be. And here's the thing, here's the thing. I don't think. I think that I need help in any way and be of service in the ways I feel I need to be of service.

1 (3m 4s):
And what is happening is fucking happening in the moment.

2 (3m 10s):
You could

1 (3m 11s):
Fucking pretend all you want, but if it's happening, then it's happening. Like that's how I feel. Yeah.

2 (3m 17s):
Yeah. And it actually, in some ways you're better equipped to help things get better when you start from the place that it's happening. I mean, cause even just starting from the place of like, it shouldn't be happening. Yeah. I relate to the impulse, but at the same time, it's a little bit of wasted steps. They're like, you just go right to, okay. Well, it's not really for me to decide if it's good or bad or indifferent, you know, it's, if I can do something about it, I should.

1 (3m 44s):
Yeah. And I feel like, yeah. And I also want to say, and thank you for talking after our interview as well to be, but I wanted to say like a year ago today I was in the hospital. So I feel really. Yeah. So that was just, oh my God, it's bringing up all this stuff about like I was talking in therapy yesterday. I like my therapist. It's interesting. She doesn't say a lot. And at first I'm like, you're not doing enough, but she's the first female older figure in my life who has allowed me the space to sort of just talk and then she does interject, but I am so used to wanting, it's not even so much approval, but someone to step in and, and tell me what to do or like more, just give me their feedback.

1 (4m 42s):
But I think that she's doing at first, I thought, is she like, literally she dumb or like what's happening here. But I think that she's doing it on purpose. Like I think there is a method to her madness or to her, whatever she's doing, because it's allowing me to, she's not giving me any answers. And I really look to that for someone to take charge because my, you know, my parents did it, but like I'm an adult and that's not her job is not to take charge of me as a therapist.

2 (5m 13s):
I will say that it's such a fine line because did I ever tell you about the analyst I had? Who fell asleep?

1 (5m 21s):
Yeah. That's not good.

2 (5m 23s):
I mean,

1 (5m 25s):
That's not good.

2 (5m 26s):
That was fascinating. And it wasn't, no, it wasn't good, but, but okay. Now I'm going to argue against my own point. But even then it was like, okay, he fell asleep, like apropos of like, okay, this is what it is. When are you going to do about it? Because the, what I did about it as I left treatment, instead of saying, what the fuck, man, I'm paying you $250 and you're asleep. Right? Like what's the matter with you? Because, because that could have helped him too. Like we could have all benefited, but I just ran away, which is the thing I have done my whole life. And then I'm really consciously trying to work against. And it's hard. It's hard to approach where you have wanted to avoid.

1 (6m 6s):
Yes. Yes. And I, so she, she's very, she's listening cause we're on zoom and she's like, but she doesn't, it's interesting. She doesn't see that much. And we talked about it and she's like, well, what would you want me to say? And I'm like, yeah, I don't know. I'm not even sure that it's, that it's a bad or a negative thing. I'm just noticing. And she said, yeah, you know, you don't have a lot of experience with, with older mother type figures, just letting you have your space. And

2 (6m 37s):
I was like, just letting you be

1 (6m 40s):
Also it's $8 a session. Like my insurance covers a lot of it. So I'm grateful for that. And she's so anyway, but we were, I was probably talking about that in therapy. About a year ago today I was in the hospital and how life-changing, that was for me and how lucky I feel, not so much that it happened, but that the team that I had was so non shaming.

2 (7m 6s):
Yeah. Yeah. And your health has steadily improved and you're in such a better place now, thank God. Congrats to you. I'm grateful that you I'm grateful that you, you know, survived that and that you've persisted and, and really taken on. You've taken on the task of whatever it is you need to do to not be in.

1 (7m 25s):
Yeah. Thank you. Also, is that the sweatshirt I gave you? Yes.
...

Interview: TikToks about terrible haircuts, Chris Noth, Roger Clemens, Andy Pettitte, Jose Canseco, Ringling Bros Clown College, Notre Dame High School, Steve Smith, Oakton Community College, being the youngest clown in the circus, clowning in Japan, Piven Theatre workshop, Auguste clownery, Reduced Shakespeare Company, losing his wife to cancer, Sebastian Maniscalco, Second City, The By Your Side Autism Podcast, Yes And.
FULL TRANSCRIPT (unedited):
1 (8s):
I'm Jen Bosworth from

2 (9s):
Eunice and I'm Gina Polizzi.

1 (11s):
We went to theater school together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand.

2 (15s):
20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all

1 (21s):
Theater school. And you will too. Are we famous yet?

3 (31s):
Hello? Hello. Hello survivors. Happy new year. Happy 2022. What is going to happen to us in 2022? It is truly a crapshoot. It is anybody's guess it literally could be anything with this could be the year of yet more plagues. We could have locusts. We could have cow mad cow member, mad cows. We have some more mad cows we could have just seriously like a Chinese throwing stars falling from the sky. Literally could be anything. So, you know, what are we going to do? We're going to hope for the best prepare for the worst. Is that what it's called? Is that what they say? Yeah. Anyway. So for today, for the beginning, part of our episode, we're giving you, but I hope you'll see as a special treat, which is a look back at some previously, what do they call it?

3 (1m 23s):
Lost footage. Is it footage if it's audio? Hmm. I don't know. Well, footage came from video in any case it had to do with film. So you have so audio footage. Sure. Audio footage back from the days before this was called, I survived theater school and we were calling the podcast undeniable. I mean, we recorded a bunch of episodes of that, which have never been aired. And so we thought it'd be fun to take a little sneak peek back at those old days that we recorded actually in 2020, the year that was, will live in and to, and we're gonna play some of it for you tonight. And then after that, we have a fabulous interview with our first ever clown, Matt croak.

3 (2m 7s):
So please enjoy

1 (2m 20s):
The wire is like a parental figure for me. It's the weirdest thing. He is so complicated, but also really true to himself. But anyway, I just posted about like that, those characters and that, and that, and that trueness to themselves is what I love about television. It's like this character is true to themselves. They're whatever that means to them. You know, like it doesn't always look pretty.

2 (2m 49s):
Yes. And, and television has the opportunity to show a lot more of the, the nitty gritty of the reality of a life in a movie. Everything. I mean, I guess if you're just taking a one slice one day in the life of maybe you could get down to that level of detail, but mostly a movie is just sort of giving a grand and often very positive spin on, you know, if the person is not as layered as they can

1 (3m 20s):
And it's not yet to be, it's not as, it's not as like it's it's. Yeah. It's just, there's not enough time. You're like, wait a second. We just had enough time. But yeah.

2 (3m 31s):
So what did your parents make of you watching that stuff?

1 (3m 34s):
They thought I was like nuts. They were like, you're making yourself scared. And I, and I want it to be like, no, you're making me scared. I, this is comforting me. You know what I mean? Like this, I didn't have control over, but I didn't say that obviously I'm a kid, but I, they thought it was weird. Yeah. They thought it was really weird because I would get into America's most wanted was on the same night as unsolved mysteries, I think. And then, and then once we got cable and or once it also like, kind of merged into like big foot UFO. Oh yeah. I got a two foot UFO's all that stuff.

2 (4m 15s):
Well, I think people who get into that or people who feel also on the fringe of whatever, the thing that they're trying to be a part of is right. And it makes perfect, right? Yeah, yeah.

1 (4m 27s):
Yeah. I left. I believed in big foot. I remember watching the California big foot tape that old 70 something, which is interesting. Cause that's around the Kiki time. There's that famous? There's a famous, famous, famous caught on tape. 1970. I want to say eight or nine in Redlands, somewhere in California. And it I'm pretty sure. And it's the sky. You got to look it up. It's the creepiest. And they still can't. They, they can't disprove it and they can't, they can't. And they're like, no, it's, it's a fake, but it is, it is the quintessential Bigfoot movie. It was caught on movie and film.

1 (5m 8s):
And I remember seeing that and be like, oh my God, that's real. That's that's real. And things exist outside of us that we have no, like universes exists multiuniverse is exists. That we are not approving the privy to, until we stumble upon it.

2 (5m 33s):
Did I tell you about the, when I first saw the warehouse that I lived in with Jeff and Rob and booklet?

1 (5m 41s):
No, but I thought of you the other day, because someone we live near a street called Oakland. Yeah.

2 (5m 47s):
So just briefly, you know, my whole plan to move to California after DePaul was with this person who I was calling my boyfriend, who was definitely my boy who told me like, yeah, I want to move to California. And so my interpretation was we are moving to California together and it was so devastated when he didn't want to do it. So on the quick I had to find a place to live and I don't remember why maybe I called Jeff because they were, I knew he was there. He was like, he was there. Who was planning to go there? Or he was there already. And he was like, yeah, we need a roommate. Do you want to come live in Oakland? Never been to Oakland in my life.

2 (6m 27s):
Never met, Rob didn't know anything about it. And so the day I'm moving in, my dad is driving me from Sacramento and he's driving a big pickup truck and we start to get into Oak I'm he already was like, Oakland, are you sure? Cause my dad's fucking racist and we start driving it and we start getting too. It's like first it looks pretty nice. That was a little scary. Does anybody live here? Because it was all warehouses. It was all that first wave of gentrification of, you know, people turning warehouses into lofts.

2 (7m 7s):
And when we finally pulled up, you know, inside, I'm dying, but I'm saying to my dad, this looks great. This looks awesome. My dad's like, are you sure you want, do you want to just, we can just turn right around and go home. So I get out and kno...

FULL TRANSCRIPT (unedited):
1 (8s):
And Jen Bosworth and I'm Gina . We went to theater school together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand it. 20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all. We survived theater school and you will too. Are we famous yet? Sad for you that you're not in the neck. You're not in your little pod. No, I'm not saying, oh, you mean at the Al yeah. Co-working oh yeah. Oh yeah. It's a whole shit show. Like I, you know, it was interesting because I thought they're really lax about masks here.

1 (51s):
So, and I thought, you know, that's not going to go well, like the there's this thing in Pasedena where, and maybe I might be making all this up, but I think I'm right. That it's like a real sort of old school. Right. Wingy kind of a place. And like, and like, and like, it was a sundown town, so, which means, okay, so black people could not be out after sundown up until like 1960. That was literally a law. I I'm pretty sure there was a, like a law it's bad. So there's a lot of them, if you look it up online, there's a lot of these towns in, in the country, but like, yeah, yeah.

1 (1m 36s):
For, for, and they, of course, I'm sure they said it was for the safety of the black people. You know what I mean? Some garbage ass racist and they're not wrong, but it's only because the white people were killing them. I mean, like that's that's they were in danger. So anyway, anyway, that there's a trickle down effect, like yeah, for sure. And then I was like, oh, and I was talking in Spanish to the, to the woman who cleans. And I was like, you know, we were talking about it. And like, my Spanish is probably like at seven seven-year-old level, but I can glean what she was saying, which was her bosses told her not to wear a mask at the cleaning play, like while she was cleaning, because it made people uncomfortable.

1 (2m 25s):
And she was like, no way, because she almost, she lost, she said her husband and her kids all had COVID and she did two back in back a year ago. And so after that, she was like, I'm wearing a mask anyway. So now, so two people that had it reported, I mean, who knows what really went down, but two people upstairs in the w they were upstairs in like a suite, the people you can rent, like a legit office there. And so like, so it wasn't downstairs. I don't care. We share coffee, we share all the common areas. Okay. And then I started getting this massive headache and I was like, oh, like, but I always get migraine. So who knows? Right. And then my throat was hurting and I was like, oh, okay.

1 (3m 5s):
Oh my gosh. So I got a test, but here's the thing because of the surge, you it's, there's like, it's really hard to get a proper test, not a rapid test. I mean, you can get a rapid test for 25 bucks at Walgreens. The shit is like 50%, like right on. If you get a positive that's right on. But if you get a negative, it's a 50% chance with a rapid test. I was reading that it's that it's wrong. So that you think you're, you're negative and you're really positive. It's just like, we can't do anything. Right. Right. So it's like, so there's, so I did my PCR and I had to wait forever and that's okay in the car or whatever.

1 (3m 45s):
And then they were like, look, it's going to take a really long time to get your results because we basically, we thought we were done with this. And now I'm like, oh my God, they're having to scramble to get people and get people to read the labs. Yeah. Anyway, I'm negative. I don't have COVID praise Jesus. Hey. Cause I was like, yeah, but I don't think I told you this. My niece has COVID in Chicago. No, no, no. That's my cousin. Oh, your niece. Oh no. Mia. 17 year old Mia has COVID because kids at our school had it and got were, and she was, I think, got it from them.

1 (4m 26s):
And then now she has it. And she had, you know, it was scary. She's backs, but not boosted because there wasn't enough time between her vaccine. Okay. So she had a fever of 103.5 Bakst with this variant it's it's the variant. And they think, I think I remember telling me when you were in Chicago and, and she was hanging out with her friends and you were like, I can't really hang out inside with you because you've been just, they just teenagers and they don't, you know, they don't give a shit. Understandably. They're thinking about college and like, you know, she, she she's D anyway, it's not shocking that she got it.

1 (5m 10s):
Also Evanston, you know, my Alma mater Evanston township high school had 120 students in one day after Thanksgiving, get COVID test positive for COVID. Wow. So they're there. They're back online. Okay. Yeah. I mean, I'm just waiting for that to happen here. I'm sure it's going to happen at any point. All right. So I'm healthy. I'm healthy. I'm I'm relatively happy. I, yeah. So that's, what's going on with me. How are things over there on the east side of the world? Things are cold frigid, frosty, bitter, but we just, isn't going to get better.

1 (5m 55s):
Desolate today is somewhat of a good day because today is the shortest day of the year, which means after today, the days will begin to get longer, which I've just like, whew, thank goodness for that. For a lot of people, people were sad and not even people with sad that the solstice is like really important for a lot of press, but one of them is that there's more hope after today, a hundred percent. Speaking of that, you know, I also notice that this is the time of year where a lot of people die, you know, because I don't know why. I've just always noticed that like the end of December, a lot of people die and somebody that I was, I mean, we weren't close or anything, but I was friends with somebody who only in the summer, I wanna say, found out that she had bone, bone marrow cancer.

1 (6m 52s):
Is that leukemia. I mean, there's all kinds of blood cancers, but yeah. And anyway, she died yesterday and she has, so I don't know exactly. Maybe she was in her early sixties. So young, young, her, you know, she has anyway, she was a brilliant writer. And yeah, last night I was reflecting on the fact that I've said on this podcast, I'm not afraid of death. And recently I'm like, Hmm. Right. Rethinking this. And I, and I, but I did say at the time, I'm sure it's just because I haven't really had to deal that much with it.

1 (7m 33s):
You know, like my own before I own home. But then my sister died and she left no trace essentially minus her two beautiful children and people just start dying. I just re I remember in, you know, when I was in my twenties and people who are in their fifties and sixties were constantly going to funerals, I was just like, oh my God. You know? And I, somehow I chalked it up to that's you, you're weird. You're right. Instead of this is just what happens now. Right. I'm not ready for it. I'm not ready to just have a bunch of people die.

1 (8m 15s):
I'm going to say maybe that's what it is. I'm more afraid of other people dying. Like I, okay. Let's unpack this in the last month. I've been afraid of you dying three times and they're serious way. The first time was when you went to San Francisco and there was like this one period of time. I mean, it was probably like a couple of hours. Oh yeah. We were supposed to have a call. Well, are we actually, it's just that you normally text me back right away. And this time I didn't. And I just decided that you were, I decided that you went to San Francisco and somebody murdered you. Like, I, I couldn't be, I couldn't be shaken that.

1 (8m 56s):
Then when you told me you were sick, I was like, oh my gosh, she's going to get COVID and die. And then one other time, I can't remember the other time was, why am I, well, I mean, when my ovary, my ovary, when we thought I ...

Intro: Amtrak, you can't afford to live anywhere, where am I trying to go?, being of service, Legacy, Fresh and Fancy
Let Me Run This By You: We get feedback from Dave, talk about Jeff Garlin, NO ONE IS HIDING ANYTHING
COMPLETE TRANSCRIPT (unedited):
1 (10s):
And I'm Gina Pulice. We went to theater school

2 (12s):
Together. We survived it.

1 (14s):
You didn't quite understand it. 20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all

2 (21s):
Survived theater school. And you will too. Are we famous yet?

1 (31s):
Hello survivors. It is Gina. Just wanted to let you know that today, boss and I are guest lists. We are without a guest and we instead had a conversation, just the two of us, chickens about a ton of things, including the fact that nothing is a secret. Even the things that we think are and talking about legacy. This is a topic that boss has been really interested in recently. And I guess I'm starting to get interested in it too. At some point in one's life, one starts to think, Hmm, did it matter that I was here? What did I do? What, what proof or evidence of is there? What I did, or maybe you don't think that way, maybe your legacy is just that you lived a contented and happy life and, and it doesn't matter if it is written in the stars in any way, either way.

1 (1m 22s):
It's fine with me. Just interesting to learn about what people's philosophies or the thoughts are about legacy. And as we come to this end of the year and we're reflecting on, wow, we're reflecting on, I guess these last two crazy years, hopefully everybody is entering this time of reflection with a lot more clarity. Maybe I think the pandemic has been clarifying among many other things. And so hopefully you're feeling, I don't know, clear, and hopefully you are enjoying this podcast.

1 (2m 4s):
And if you are enjoying it, you are hopefully subscribed. And if you're subscribed, hopefully you have left us a review. Honestly, I don't even care what the review says. I think just having reviews is the thing that helps us with the king algorithm. And that's important only because we want to be able to keep doing this podcast. We enjoy doing it. We, we get a lot out of it. And we've heard from people that people are getting a lot out of it in return. So it's a mutually great thing that we'll be able to continue. If you are able to put your love for our podcast, not just in your heart, but in the world, tell the public, shout it from the rooftops.

1 (2m 47s):
I'm not going to stop you from shouting it from the rooftops. I'll tell you that much right now. Anyway, that's all for that. Please enjoy.

3 (3m 10s):
I'm going to take it to all those places. Cause those are like some of my favorite places in Southern California. And I didn't know that. So I'm learning a lot. And so I took it to San Francisco to Oakland and my cousin picked me up. But what is fantastic and sad about Amtrak for people that don't know? Like nobody knows shit about Amtrak, but Amtrak is a government funded. So rail is government funded. It was supposed to be like the thing of the future. It was supposed to be just rail. We weren't like flying and, and, and, and train travel was supposed to be comparable like it was going to be, but it just like, it has a lot to do. Someone was telling me like w who I met on the Amtrak.

3 (3m 51s):
Cause you eat in community eating. So these two amazing women that I met told me that like something with world war two and trains, the trains all had to be used for, for like ammunition, like the war Fs. And so then it became less of a, a passenger situation. And then when flying really anyway. So, but it's gorgeous. So w and what you can do is, so I bought a coach ticket, which is literally like, you know, I don't know, 50 bucks, a hundred bucks round trip from, but then you can bid to upgrade your seat because Amtrak has no money.

3 (4m 32s):
So what you can do is say, okay, well, like I'm willing to pay. They give you a range I'm willing to pay. And I did the lowest $20 more to go to business class, which is like super much nicer. Right. So I bid, and then they said, of course they accepted my bid because it's not a full train. Nobody trained travels by train. And so business classes dope. And it is like, you get two seats. It, they reclined almost all the way. There's, it's just, it's quiet. Like coaches, coaches, loud as hell, where people are eating, like, you know, Funyuns and like Takis chips the whole time. And like, you know, a lot of people like down on their luck and stuff like that.

3 (5m 15s):
Okay. So, you know, I did business class on the way there and lovely. I mean, there's wifi. I mean, it's like dope. And the bathrooms were relative are clean. I don't in business class anyway. All right. So it literally goes up the coast. And so you, you, you're on the ocean. It's the weirdest thing you're like, this is I'm, I'm traveling right next to the ocean. It's a long time. The whole time. Almost long as hell though. Okay. So like, you know, the flight is 45 minutes from Burbank to, to, to San Francisco. And the train ride is 10 hours. Like, that's just how it is. Like, that's, if you are in a hurry, you do not take the Amtrak.

3 (5m 57s):
You know what I mean? So there is like, I do have some shame, like, people think I'm ridiculous a little bit. They're like, I'm like, where am I going? I, it's not like I have pressing meetings. I am not. Yeah.

1 (6m 9s):
And for, for the life, so many of us are living right now, which is working from home or working remotely or making your own schedule. Why shouldn't you it's much better for the environment to take the train. Yeah.

3 (6m 23s):
It is it, you take the airplane. Yes. So, so it was amazing. And then I had a wonderful, wonderful time in San Francisco. Like I never really liked San Francisco. I don't know what my problem was. Like, I never really got into San Francisco even though like people cause

1 (6m 41s):
Your mom left you a spree for, oh

3 (6m 43s):
My God. Yeah. If you listen to this podcast, you know that like, you know, my mom was having an affair and, and, and we went to San Francisco and she literally left my sister and I at the esprit outlet, which thank God, had a restaurant in the outlet for like what felt like forever. But it, it was a work day. It was a full work day at a spree. It was like eight hours. So I just really, in the last couple years have really grown to love the shit out of the bay area. Like I know the tech bros have taken over. I know that you can't afford to live there. Okay. All those things are true. I still, because maybe I'm not from there.

3 (7m 23s):
I know I'm not so butt hurt about that. Like I, you know, and my aunt and uncle this beautiful, beautiful condo in north beach and my cousin lives in the inner inner Richmond, I don't know. Anyway. So she's on Clement street and it's gorgeous. And I walked everywhere and we went hiking in Moran and we drove to Marin. So I would live there. I would live. I mean, I, you know, who can afford to live there, but here's the thing that I think a lot of us too are, are, are really looking at. Most of us in my circle are like, we, we really literally can't afford to live anywhere. Like the, the world is becoming unaffordable on a, so many ways. And so many levels that the thing of like, oh, it's so expensive in blank.

3 (8m 6s):
City becomes less sort of exciting or like less sensational because it's like, look around what, what are you talking about? You can't live anywhere. It's all, it's all terrible. So, so all this to say, like, it was, it was a great trip. And then on the way back, I got smart and I was like, okay, well, let me see if I c...

Intro: We're not doing well. What's the hustle for? W
Let Me Run This By You: Is there any such thing as an advocate?
Interview: We talk to Kristin Goodman about horses, One Flea Spare, I Got the Blues, David Dastmalchian, John Hoogenakker, New Mexico, Yellow Boat, performance anxiety, Chicago College of Performing Arts, Michael Maggio, gender differences in conservatory education.

FULL TRANSCRIPT (unedited):
2 (10s):
And I'm Gina Kalichi.

1 (11s):
We went to theater school together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand it. 20 years later,

2 (16s):
We're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all

1 (21s):
Theater school. And you will too. Are we famous yet? That was the big question. How are you? It's good to see your face.

2 (36s):
It's good to see you too. I am. Oh, I'm not, not great,

1 (41s):
But I am like faking it until I make it, but yeah, you can just start out there.

2 (46s):
Yeah. I didn't sleep. I had conflict in my house yesterday. I'm fighting with the freaking IRS again. And

1 (1m 0s):
Like that that's enough right there. Like that could be, you know what I mean?

2 (1m 5s):
The kid got sick in the night, horribly sick. It's just like,

1 (1m 14s):
It's the shit, the shit of life. You know, the shit of life.

2 (1m 18s):
Yeah. What's the for you.

1 (1m 19s):
Well, before I go on, I just want to say there was a, there was a friend that said that she had this visceral reaction to whenever she felt bad, she traced it back to this time at camp where she was in the cold. This is what you're, you're talking. Your check-in reminds me of, she was in her cold outhouse. This is so gross. But she said there's a visceral or like a bath, the camp bathrooms, not an outhouse, but basically the visceral reaction of a cold wet floor seeing here on the floor smelling.

2 (1m 56s):
Yeah, wait, that's what comes up for her when she's like,

1 (1m 60s):
When she has distressed, she remembers this visceral thing of cold, wet floor, disgusting cold wet floor, seeing smelling poop and seeing wet hair on the floor. That's what reminds me like they all go together for her. Yes. She's really in that. And when she's in that moment, I'm not friends with her anymore. But I remember her telling me this and thinking, oh my God, it's so apt. It's like, that is the thing. It's like this combination of things that come together that just make fucking tear, like not good, you know?

2 (2m 32s):
Good. And that I can really envision that floor. I feel like, I know, I feel like that was, I never went to camp, but I feel like,

1 (2m 42s):
Yeah,

2 (2m 43s):
It's not good. It's not good. And you know, like, I guess misery loves company because you know, I, a bunch of people that I talked to yesterday were like, yeah, it's not good.

1 (2m 55s):
It's similar. I have a similar vibe of like, what is it? You know, I'm S I feel, I mean, it's very strong to say purposeless. I mean, that's, I'm looking for, and I started therapy with this new therapist who I at first thought, oh my God, because she's, she's an older lady. And like, she did that thing of like on zoom. We, we meet on zoom and she did a thing where her camera was fucked up. So I only saw half her face. And I had to be like, Hey, pat, you gotta move the camera. Like I thought, oh, we're in for real. But she's Dr. Pat, Dr. Pat is, I won't say her last name on this in case I ever talked shit about her.

1 (3m 35s):
But anyway, she, she, she, she's turning out to be quite okay and eight and it's through my insurance covers it. So it's not, that's great. But you know, my bar was pretty low because my last therapist was an Orthodox Jewish guy who kept wanting me to have children. So she's better than that. But anyway, in therapy, I'm realizing that like, I'm really searching for what is it like, what is it I'm looking for in life? Not how do I make money? Not how do I get where I want to go? But like, what are the qualities in life that I am searching for?

1 (4m 18s):
I've never asked myself that question in my life. Wow. Okay. That's big. Yeah. Like, and, and there's all this shit going on. You know, my friend here, her, mom's got, Alzheimer's, I'm caring, helping care for her and her. Dad's on life support and it's a mess, but all that stuff is true and it's horrific. But I think that's all the stuff of life that's really shitty. But like the internal, when we've talked about this on the podcast, like my internal stuff is more painful usually than the external. Right. I mean, they, they, they really inform each other, but like the informed internal questions of what are the things, what am I looking for? Like if the, what is the hustle for, what is the, where am I going?

1 (5m 1s):
What the fuck, that's where I'm at. And it's super painful to know, to realize that, like, you know, I don't know the answer to that question. What am I looking for? I, I literally don't and my friend, I have a new friend who's also named Jennifer who said, she asked me this question. And she said, Hey, J boss. She calls me J boss, because someone asked her this as a writing exercise. And I'm going to ask our people this on, on Friday. Anyway. When did you feel when and where do you feel most at home?

1 (5m 45s):
And I'm like, oh, I w my first response was the coworking space. She's like, and, but it's because I feel like I belong here. Like there's a place to belong to. So that question got me on this. It got me really feeling like vulnerable. And, but like, I wanted to ask you that question, like, my answer was, holy shit. I have no idea. And then the true, if I told this to, and I told this to therapy last night, the true answer to that is in practical terms.

1 (6m 29s):
The first time I remember feeling at home was when I went to my partial hospitalization day program. Oh,

2 (6m 37s):
Wow. Oh,

1 (6m 38s):
Wow. And it was the feeling of after my dad died, you know, I was such a mess and had good insurance praise God. And I went there and I was ashamed and embarrassed, and I didn't want to be there, but I had no structure in my life because I'd left LA and had nothing, nothing to do. And I went there and I thought it was the first time in my life being sick. I felt like no one was pretending, not one person was pretending we had all reached the end of the line in the pretending the therapist. Like no one was pretending that we weren't where we were.

1 (7m 19s):
It was unbelievably like shocking, but it was also the biggest relief I've ever felt in my life. Well, that's,

2 (7m 28s):
That's the word I was going to say. I was going to say what it sounds like, what you really felt was relief that you were, I mean, because, and it makes sense that you would have spent your entire life up to that point, figuring out what you had to do to survive, which usually involves making other people happy and feeling responsible for other people's happiness. So the minute, you know, nobody was pretending to be happy. And even if they were, you, weren't in charge of whether or not they were happy that that would feel like a relief. And I, I mean, I haven't had that exact experience, but I do know that, and this is so...

Interview: Boz talks to Heather Gilbert about training and working as a lighting designer, the privilege of training in the same place you want to work, Carnegie Mellon, John Bridges, John Culbert, Theatre Communications Group, the NEA, Topdog/Underdog, Stacy Caballero, Keith Parham, analytical geometry, the alchemy of passions that compose lighting design, Trinity University,  Kendra Thulin, David Swayze, Manifest Arts Festival, The Big Funk, Steppenwolf, Suzan Lori Parks, Don Cheadle, Jeffrey Wright, Mos Def, storefront theatre, Buried Child, Everyman, The Libertine, Bar San Miguel, David Cromer, Miracle on 34th Street starring Tracy Letts, The Hypocrites, Sean Graney, The Adding Machine, Our Town, the magic of good artistic partnerships, Sam Rockwell, Sheldon Patinkin, Next to Normal at Writers Theatre, The Band's Visit on Broadway, Come Back Little Sheba at The Huntington,  Michael Halberstam, Adam Rapp's The Sound Inside at Williamstown , Studio 54, Franco Colavecchia, Nan Cibula, Bug by Tracy Letts, not apologizing, being process-oriented vs. product-oriented, Macbeth at the NY Shakespeare Festival, Angela Bassett, Alec Baldwin, Zach Braff, Liev Schreiber, Michael C. Hall, and Carrie Coon.

FULL TRANSCRIPT (unedited): 
Speaker 1 (0s): I'm Jen Bosworth and I'm Gina Polizzi. We went to theater school together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand it. 20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all. We survived theater school and you will too. Are we famous? Okay. Hello. Thank you so much for joining me. My 

Speaker 2 (32s): God. I'm so 

Speaker 1 (33s): Excited about it. So the first thing we always say is, congratulations, Heather Gilbert, you survived theater school. I did. I did. Okay. And you really survived it with, with a flourish. I would say you're kind of fancy and a big deal 

Speaker 2 (52s): Is a lighting designer ever really a big deal 

Speaker 1 (55s): In my view. So we have a lot, the thing that I love about reading about you, and also I know you teach and you're at, but is that there is a, I would say you're a master of your craft based on what I would say that based on what I've read about you and what I know about you and your successes, and also your trajectory during school. And post-school like, if there's a master of a lighting designer, crap, you've you're, you're it. 

So thank you. Yeah. It's amazing to lo to, to read about you. So one of the things and people also post what you can, for me, I can tell when someone is a bad-ass at what they do, because they don't actually have to promote themselves that other people around them will post till they'll say, oh my gosh, congratulations. So that is a sign that you're a bad ass is that other people are like, I'm shouting out your name without you having, you know what I mean? 

Like you don't do a lot of self-promotion, 

Speaker 2 (1m 60s): I'm terrible at it actually, 

Speaker 1 (2m 1s): Which is, which is amazing that you, that you're able to anyway, other people sing your praises, which I think is like really what we all want as artists, you know? So, yeah. So, okay. So why don't you tell me like how you ended up at the theater school, where you're from, like how that went down? 

Speaker 2 (2m 19s): So I I'm from I'm from Michigan. I'm also from Texas. I mostly grew up in Texas. Like the important years were there and I was working after, so I went to the theater school for grad school during this super brief period of time when there was a grad degree in design, I was the first lighting designer. I came in with someone else who only lasted the first quarter. He was like super unhappy. He kind of made me, I kind of glommed on to that. And I was like, oh, are we unhappy? I'll be unhappy. I, this 

Speaker 1 (2m 46s): Complained about everything. 

Speaker 2 (2m 48s): And then he, he left after first quarter and then it was awesome because they gave me all the things that he was supposed to do. But when I came in, I wasn't, I wasn't interested in the program. If I was going to be the very first person without a cohort, a word we did not use in 1994, there was no cohort. No, we just had classmates. Right. And yeah, he, so he, so, but I knew about him ...

Intro: Boz deserves a seat at the table, life coaches, let's be direct
Let Me Run This By You: Gina versus plots - is it just ADD?
Interview: We talk to Kate Dugan about living in Morocco, her playwriting program,  Sandy Shinner, Victory Gardens, shooting yourself in the foot, being ready or not to take advantage of opportunities, Outliers, regret, Sandra Delgado, the Bad Boyfriend years, Austin Film Festival, Ola Rotimi, Actor's Training Center, Meisner, Erica Daniels, Bikram yoga
FULL TRANSCRIPT (unedited): 
1 (8s):
And Jen Bosworth from me this and I'm Gina Polizzi. We went to theater school together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand it. 20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all. We survived theater school and you will too. Are we famous yet? Not a whole hell of a lot. I mean, I'm, I feel I'm right. I just real, really excited to like level up my, my work life game. Like, it doesn't even mean that I, it just means that, like, I actually feel like an adult, like I just feel at 47 right now.

1 (55s):
I'm 47. I feel at 47. Like I'm ready. Oh girl. Wait, am I 40? No, I had a birthday. October four. Yeah. You turned 40 you're you're you're desperate to be older apparently. Oh, I've been telling people 47. Okay. So what year were you born? 75, but I'm terrible at math for 46 years. Okay. So what was I saying about being the wrong age? Oh, I just feel like at 46, right? That's my age at 46. I am finally ready to get a job, like, okay. I need a writing job, like a, B a real job, a real job of like, of like, I feel like I finally deserve, I just, I'm starting to feel like I finally deserve a seat at the table.

1 (1m 47s):
I love that. Yeah, I definitely do. Yeah. I mean, I just do deserve it, but like the world needs for you to have that seat at the table. Thank you. And I finally feel like that is a possibility, you know, it's interesting. And I was going to ask you about this. So there are all these Clem coaches in Los Angeles. Oh, that's funny. I was going to ask you if something about coaches, but go ahead. Okay, great. So, so God bless him and I can just see everyone is really trying to earn a living, right? So like, everyone I meet is trying to help. I know a lot of hustlers, right?

1 (2m 28s):
So coaches now have this language. It's fantastic. First time a coach uses language with me. I thought it was so cool. And I was so special. They all fucking use this language. Good ones, bad ones, whatever. Okay. So they get to the part. I had a free introductory session with a woman who was wonderful, nothing wrong with her. I'm talking about specific coaching language around payment and charging people talking about the fee. Okay. So therapists my in my, you know, the way it was, well, I also worked for a social service agency. So I could like just people please, my way out of it and say, well, the agency charges this, you know, all of this. Okay.

1 (3m 8s):
But for all the people I've seen as therapists, they're pretty straightforward. They're like, my fee is 180 an hour. This is how much your copay would. I looked up your insurance, whatever coaches have a whole nother situation where they say things like, I don't usually do this. This is what they say more than one coach say this to me. I don't usually do this, but I'm going to do something I don't normally do, which is I'm gonna let you set your fee. How much is this worth to you?

2 (3m 36s):
Oh God. Oh fuck you. What kind

1 (3m 39s):
Of invest?

2 (3m 40s):
$7 and 50 cents.

1 (3m 42s):
What kind of investment are you willing to make in your future? Whatever, whatever they get. And then

2 (3m 51s):
If you low ball it, it's like, well, I guess you're not recommend it to your future,

1 (3m 54s):
Right. Or, and you must not value. You must not yet. Right? You must not think that you're abundant enough to bring it the way. So the first time someone said this to me, I was like, this is brilliant. Like I totally, and I bought in and I was like, and I, and, and I didn't know. I was like, okay, you know, $80 a session. And then she later, and then we did that for a while later, she told me that she charges like $2,000 for, oh my God. Like a packet. And I was like, what? Okay, so right. Okay. This person did not do this the other day. I had a free introductory session. And she said that, you know, when she's a woman of color and I really adore her, but it was the same language.

1 (4m 38s):
And it's not, it's what they're trained to say. And so I just am, so I was so naive. I thought this was like such a cool thing. And now I'm like, wait, everyone's using the same thing, which is, I'm going to let you set your fee to tell me how much you are invested in yourself. And I'm like, wait, that's manipulative. Just set your fucking fee. And if I just said fan, and if I don't pay it, I don't pay it. And we don't work together because otherwise

2 (5m 7s):
You're setting up the road. I mean, setting up the dynamic where somebody is going to feel resentful, right? Like if, if you're the coach and you're not charging what you, what you think you're. I mean, what about that? Why wouldn't you turn it back on them and say like, well, I really rely upon providers to tell me what they think they're worth by having an established fee. I mean, this is, it's so crazy. It's, it's like saying actually I've had this before with, I can't think maybe babysitters, like how much you charge. Well, whatever you feel comfortable with, I don't know what to do with that. Like, I mean, I feel comfortable paying you nothing. Does that mean that's what you want to,

1 (5m 48s):
Right? This is what we get in trouble with when, whenever there's a barter situation as well. Like I remember, oh my God, my dad is a anyway. I remember a psychologist getting into huge trouble at a friend, my dad's friend for bartering with therapy.

2 (6m 7s):
Oh my God. Like, make me homemade tofu or something like

1 (6m 11s):
Similar, like out, like you do my yard work. I'll do. I mean, I mean, like you get into trouble. It leads to trouble. I think it's better to be out of vagueness, set your fee and not, and just say, this is my fee. And if someone wants to have a conversation about the fee and do you lower it, and then you have a further conversation, whether you decide to lower it or not is up to you. But like, yeah, I don't like this, this,

2 (6m 39s):
No. And let's just be direct. I mean, this is another problem that we have, like with just, I don't know, globally with communication. I just feel like people are so darn indirect and it doesn't help. I'm not, I'm not suggesting that like, I can't use more, you know, finesse or be half softer or whatever. But like at the end of the day, I just want to know what it is. You're trying to say to me, you know, and I don't want to guess about it because I'm going to guess wrong. And then you're going to feel a type of way about it. And it's unnecessary.

1 (7m 12s):
It's unnecessary. And I do, you know, as much as, as much as I, I always think back, I had a therapist at the, at Austin Riggs in Massachusetts and Stockbridge and Dr. Craig Pierce. Right. And he, it was interesting. I...