(This episode was first published in July 2025.) 

Where does gravity come from? In both general relativity and quantum mechanics, this question is a big problem. One controversial theory proposes that the force arises from the universe's tendency toward disorder, or entropy. In this episode, host Samir Patel speaks with contributing writer George Musser about the long-shot idea called "entropic gravity," which Musser covered in a recent story for Quanta Magazine.

Each week on The Quanta Podcast, Quanta Magazine editor in chief Samir Patel speaks with the minds behind the award-winning publication to navigate through some of the most important and mind-expanding questions in science and math.

Audio coda provided by Cosmic Perspective.