There is no novel better than a Plum Sykes novel, and I have mentioned on the show what a fan I am of Plum’s work—and of Plum, period, end of story. I have another special fiction pick for you listeners as we’re starting to plan summer beach trips and pool days—Plum’s latest, Wives Like Us, is an absolute must for your summer TBR. It comes out today, May 14, and I tore through it and wanted more of Ian the butler (you’ll hear Plum and I talk about him plenty on the show today). Truly, Plum is one of the ultimate icons of fiction to me. Let’s talk about Wives Like Us before we get into getting to know a bit about Plum herself: this book takes us to the Cotswolds, specifically “The Bottoms,” and introduces us to the luxe life there, specifically the life and the concept of “the Country Princess,” which Plum explains in our chat today. Plum lives in the English countryside, so it’s a world she knows well. The signature of Plum’s novels is that they’re so juicy and dishy and high society-focused—upper crust and rich and glamorous. This is her fourth novel, following Bergdorf Blondes, The Debutante Divorcee, and Party Girls Die in Pearls, which came out in 2016, if I’m not mistaken, so it’s been a moment since I’ve gotten my Plum Sykes novel fix. Let me tell you about her, without further ado. First of all, Plum and her twin sister, Lucy, were the “It Girls” in New York City high society, Plum working at Vogue under Anna Wintour and Lucy at Marie Claire, where, actually, I now work. Plum is a fashion journalist, novelist, and socialite and was born in London and educated at Oxford, and remains a contributing editor at Vogue, where she writes about society, fashion, and Hollywood. She has also written for Vanity Fair. I’m a fan of Plum’s writing and just Plum as a person, and there’s no question that you, too, will fall in love with her after listening to our conversation.

Wives Like Us by Plum Sykes

First things first: today’s episode is fantastic, but deals with some really heavy, difficult subject matter. Please be advised, and please take care of yourself and listen as you’re able.

On January 28, 1986, the Space Shuttle Challenger broke apart 73 seconds into flight above the Atlantic Ocean, off the coast of Cape Canaveral, Florida at 11:39 a.m., killing all seven crew members aboard. This marked the first fatal accident involving an American spacecraft while in flight. Not only were the families of all seven crew members watching, but so was the country and the world—the launch was broadcast live, and children across the country in particular were watching thanks to schoolteacher Christa McAuliffe being sent into space that day as a part of the Teacher In Space program. Because of this, media interest was higher than normal, and many children watched in horror as the spacecraft exploded, not understanding, and traumatized.

I want to honor those seven lives lost by naming them here: F. Richard Scobee, commander; Michael J. Smith, pilot; Ronald McNair, mission specialist; Ellison Onizuka, mission specialist; Judith Resnik, mission specialist; Gregory Jarvis, payload specialist; and Christa McAuliffe, payload specialist and teacher. This crew was scheduled to deploy a communications satellite and study Halley’s Comet, but never got the chance; the cause of the explosion was determined to be the failure of the primary and secondary redundant O-ring seals in a joint in the shuttle’s right solid rocket booster—our guest on the show today, Adam Higginbotham, will explain that to us. The record-low temperatures on that January morning of the launch had stiffened the rubber O-rings, reducing their ability to seal the joints. After a three-month search-and recovery operation, the crew compartment, human remains, and many other fragments from the shuttle were recovered from the Atlantic Ocean floor. I talk about this with Adam today, but, while the exact timing of the deaths of the crewmembers is unknown, several crew members are thought to have survived the initial breakup of the Challenger. It is especially difficult, at least for me, to hear Adam talk about this.

As a result of the Challenger disaster, NASA established the Office of Safety, Reliability, and Quality Assurance, as well as other changes focused on safety. In his book Challenger: A True Story of Heroism and Disaster on the Edge of Space, which comes out tomorrow, May 14, Adam Higginbotham tells the story of the Challenger but also the arc from 1967 and the Apollo 1 cabin fire to 2003 and the Columbia disaster, 17 years after the Challenger. This is one of the best books I’ve ever read—full stop. The full story of what happened with the Challenger and why has never been told, until Adam’s book. It is filled with extensive archival research and meticulous, original reporting about this turning point in history, which, as Adam puts it, “forever changed the way America thought of itself and its optimistic view of the future.” Adam is a journalist who is the former U.S. correspondent for The Sunday Telegraph and former editor-in-chief of The Face. He has also served as a contributing writer for The New York Times, The New Yorker, GQ, Smithsonian, and Wired and is also the author of Midnight in Chernobyl: The Untold Story of the World’s Greatest Nuclear Disaster, which came out in 2019. This is a truly harrowing and powerful conversation.

Challenger: A True Story of Heroism and Disaster on the Edge of Space by Adam Higginbotham

I was doing my scroll of all of my favorite magazine’s sites when I saw a headline on Vanity Fair that read “Elise Loehnen Would Like Mothers to Give Themselves a Break.” Now, look, I’m not even a mother, and even I get how much mothers giving themselves a break is necessary. I have so many friends that are moms, and even beyond mothers, just for women, in general, that pervasive guilt always seems to be so present—that we’re never doing enough, or, perhaps even more catastrophically, that we ourselves aren’t enough. That’s why I wanted to release today’s episode on the Friday before Mother’s Day specifically—Elise is my guest on the show today, and her message is one all mothers and all women need to hear, and her book, On Our Best Behavior: The Seven Deadly Sins and the Price Women Pay to Be Good, is one all mothers and all women need to read. This isn’t just a book—it’s a masterclass, a manifesto, a book of a generation. Truly. On Our Best Behavior has one of the best frameworks I’ve ever seen for a book, one that uses the Seven Deadly Sins—ancient ideas of morality that still control and distort women’s lives today—to reveal how these are rules we unwittingly follow in order to be considered “good,” and how we equate self-denial with being good. These unselfish, often distinctly feminine instincts are ingrained in us by a culture that reaps the benefits of it. The Seven Deadly Sins of pride, greed, lust, envy, gluttony, wrath, and sloth have exerted insidious power and have done so since their adoption in the fourth century up to the present day. Elise’s book is at the same time very modern, tying everything to the present day, but also steeped in history—and, thankfully, it teaches us how to break free from the chains that bind us. The book is a New York Times bestseller and has been since its release in May 2023, a groundbreaking work that every woman and, really, every person needs to read. By the way, Elise taught me that the seven deadly sins were actually once eight sins. I really can’t tell you how much this book impacted me, and how excited I am for you to read this book and hear this conversation. Closing out this incredible week on the show, we have Elise Loehnen herself, who is not just the writer of On Our Best Behavior but is also the host of the podcast “Pulling the Thread” and the Substack newsletter of the same name. Elise went to Yale and, interestingly, was a national championship mathlete finalist, which I deeply appreciate made the cut of her bio. She was a deputy editor at Lucky magazine (which we’ve talked about on the show before, in our episode with Jean Godfrey June), was editorial projects director at Conde Nast Traveler, and was chief content officer of Goop—where she hosted the Goop podcast and the Goop Lab series on Netflix and oversaw Goop magazine. She actually left Goop in 2020 to focus on this book. This is actually not Elise’s first book, not by a long shot—she has worked as a ghostwriter on a ton of books in the areas of self-help, style, and business, and has worked with Ellen DeGeneres and Lea Michelle, for example. She’s co-written 12 books, and five of those were New York Times bestsellers, which is incredible. On Our Best Behavior is her first book written under her own name and not ghostwritten. Elise is a frequent contributor to Oprah and has written for The New York Times, Elle Décor, Stylist, and more. She is a wife and a mother of two sons, and they live in L.A. I can’t wait for you to meet her in this conversation.

On Our Best Behavior: The Seven Deadly Sins and the Price Women Pay to Be Good by Elise Loehnen

“Elise Loehnen Would Like Mothers to Give Themselves a Break” in Vanity Fair

Today on the show we’re talking about the legend that is Barbara Walters. We actually have another journalist I admire, Susan Page, who wrote The Rulebreaker: The Life and Times of Barbara Walters (which just came out on April 23), talking about a journalist I admire, so our cup runneth over with powerhouse female journalists. Barbara lived a long, full life, passing away on December 30, 2022, at 93 years old. In her lifetime, she became one of the most well-known and well-regarded broadcast journalists and television personalities, perhaps most famous for her genius level interviewing ability and for breaking barriers that once prevented women from being equal to men when it came to broadcast journalism. She was an Emmy winner and hosted numerous programs like Today, the ABC Evening News, 20/20, and she created The View, which Susan and I talk about on the show today. She was a working journalist from 1951 until her retirement in 2015 and was very deservedly inducted into the Television Hall of Fame in 1989; she even has a star on the Hollywood Walk of Fame. In the early 1960s, Barbara was relegated to reporting on women’s interest stories on Today, but her popularity amongst viewers eventually catapulted to her becoming a co-host of the show in 1974, the first woman to hold such a role on an American news program. In 1976, she broke down more barriers when she became the first American female co-anchor of a network evening news program alongside Harry Reasoner on the ABC Evening News—which, um, did not go so well. Don’t worry, Susan and I talk about that, too. She became known for her annual Barbara Walters’ 10 Most Fascinating People, and during her career interviewed every sitting U.S. president and First Lady from the Nixons to the Obamas; she also interviewed both Donald Trump and Joe Biden, but not when either was president. Her interviews with subjects ranging from Fidel Castro to Monica Lewinsky and so many more gained her recognition as the best interviewer in the business, but who was Barbara Walters the person, not the personality? Well, Susan’s book lays it all out. We learn about Barbara’s marriages—she was married four times to three men—her daughter, other romantic relationships, and her childhood, especially her relationship with her father and her sister, and how those relationships shaped her into the woman she became. Today on the show to discuss it all is Susan Page, the Washington, D.C. bureau chief for USA Today. This is Susan’s third biography of a powerful woman: her first, about Barbara Bush, was released in 2019 and is called The Matriarch: Barbara Bush and the Making of an American Dynasty. She then released a biography about House Speaker Nancy Pelosi called Madam Speaker: Nancy Pelosi and the Lessons of Power in 2021, and her third book is The Rulebreaker. Susan has covered seven White House administrations and 11 presidential elections and has interviewed 10 presidents, right up there with Barbara Walters. She also moderated the 2020 vice presidential debate between Kamala Harris and Mike Pence, founded and hosts a video newsmaker series for USA Today called “Capital Download,” and appears frequently as a panelist or an analyst on various news programs, including Meet the Press—and was even president of the White House Correspondents Association at one point. I can’t wait for you to hear our conversation.

The Rulebreaker: The Life and Times of Barbara Walters by Susan Page

When it comes to women I find totally compelling, Elizabeth Taylor tops the list for me. Why, you may ask? Well, her Academy Award-winning career and her talent onscreen, for starters. Her beauty, specifically her violet eyes. Her work with AIDS, and her White Diamonds perfume. And, yes, her lifestyle, specifically her eight marriages. But there’s only one man she married twice, and that love story, the love story between Elizabeth and Richard Burton, is what we’re talking about on the show today. Joining me today is Roger Lewis, the endlessly compelling author of Erotic Vagrancy: Everything About Richard Burton and Elizabeth Taylor, which came out March 26. It took Roger 13 years to write this book, which clocks in at the juiciest 608 pages imaginable. It, in a word, is delicious. Elizabeth knew celebrity well, and by the time she met Richard on the set of Cleopatra in 1961, she had transitioned from a child star to a Hollywood icon. Meanwhile, we have Richard, who is a legend in the theater and a truly brilliant actor, nominated for seven Academy Awards, though he didn’t win any. He is much, much more averse to fame than his wife Elizabeth, who essentially helped define modern celebrity. Their two lives converge in Rome, and both are married to other people at the time; they can’t resist one another, and in come the private jets, the jewels, the yachts, the furs, and the vodka—so much vodka. Though Roger calls the two the loves of one another’s lives, it all goes wrong, with alcoholism, violence, recrimination, and two divorces. Richard is dead at just 58 in 1982; Elizabeth will live another 29 years before dying in 2011. Elizabeth and Richard were better known as “Liz and Dick” by the media, and ultimately starred in 11 films together and were married the first time from 1964 to 1974, and then remarried in 1975; their second marriage once again ended in divorce in 1976, just one year later. Together, in the 1960s the supercouple earned a combined $88 million. Their relationship has been referred to as the “marriage of the century,” and here to escort us on this rollercoaster ride is Roger Lewis, who, in addition to this masterpiece, also wrote The Life and Death of Peter Sellers, which was made into a Golden Globe and Emmy award-winning film by HBO starring Geoffrey Rush and Charlize Theron. I would expect some type of screen adaptation for Erotic Vagrancy, as well—just saying. He has also written a number of other biographies, including one on Laurence Olivier. Prepare through this conversation to be transported to the lavish, almost unbelievable world of Liz and Dick, and strap yourselves in, because it’s going to be a bumpy, wild ride.

Erotic Vagrancy: Everything About Richard Burton and

I have two surprise, special episodes for you this week, including today’s chat with none other than Jen Psaki! Yes, that’s right, the Jen Psaki, the former White House press secretary and current TV host extraordinaire. Jen has a new book out today, May 7, called Say More: Lessons from Work, the White House, and the World, and I loved it. It’s a memoir of her time as White House press secretary but also a how to book on how to be a more successful communicator. I learned so much in the book—not just about Jen, but also about her best tips and tricks and strategies for communicating. She knows a thing or two about that, considering that she is 22 years and several communications jobs into this line of work. There’s no way you don’t know who the dynamic Jen Psaki is, but let me refresh your memory: Jen served under both the Obama and Biden administrations, serving President Obama as the White House deputy press secretary in 2009 and the White House deputy communications director from 2009 to 2011. She was also the spokesperson for the United States Department of State from 2013 to 2015 and the White House communications director from 2015 to 2017. She was also press secretary for both of Obama’s presidential campaigns, in 2008 and 2012. From 2017 to 2020, Jen worked as a political commentator for CNN, and in November 2020 she left the network and joined the Biden-Harris transition team; later that month, she was named the White House press secretary for the Biden administration, and she served until May 2022, as it was always her plan (as we’ll talk about on the show today) to stay for about a year. Jen then became a contributor at MSNBC, and in February 2023 it was announced that she would host a new Sunday morning program, Inside with Jen Psaki, beginning the next month, in March. The show is seriously great, and ratings showed that; in September, the program took over MSNBC’s Monday 8 p.m. primetime slot, and I highly recommend watching it for yourself. (The show focuses on public policy issues, by the way.) Jen is also a wife and a mother of two young children, and we talk about how she juggled marriage and motherhood with one of the toughest communications jobs in the world. Now she’s an author with Say More, a book that Jen said she wished she’d had when starting her career.

Say More: Lessons from Work, the White House, and the World by Jen Psaki

We’re continuing to add to your beach read pile today with another fiction pick I couldn’t get enough of: Summers at the Saint by Mary Kay Andrews, which is out May 7. Mary Kay is so talented at making the setting or the place of her books as a character in the novel, and she certainly does that in this latest book with “the Saint,” a landmark hotel on the coast of Georgia. Traditions run deep here, but scandals run even deeper. “The Saint” is shorthand for the St. Cecelia, and if you grew up coming to this hotel, you were referred to as “a Saint”; if you came from the wrong side of the river, you were “an Ain’t.” In the book we meet Traci Eddings, who was one of those outsiders; her family wasn’t rich or connected enough to vacation at the Saint. She did work at the Saint, however, for one summer, and she married the boss’ son. In this book we find her the widowed owner of the hotel, attempting to get the Saint back to its glory days, even though she’s got a mountain of opposition standing in her way. She’s got one summer season to turn it around, but then, new information about a drowning that happened long ago at the hotel threatens to come to light, and then a tragic death of one of the Saint’s own brings Traci to the brink of despair. It’s a love story, it’s a mystery, and it’s definitely worth a place on your TBR pile. Mary Kay Andrews is such a talented writer—she’s a New York Times bestseller and her hit books are too numerous to name, but I’ll try: The Homewreckers, The Newcomer, Hello, Summer, Sunset Beach, The High Tide Club, The Beach House Cookbook, The Weekenders, Beach Town, Save the Date, Ladies’ Night, Spring Fever, Summer Rental, The Fixer Upper, Deep Dish, Savannah Breeze, Hissy Fit, Little Bitty Lies, and Savannah Blues, and I know there are many others that I left out. She is actually a former journalist for The Atlanta Journal-Constitution, and lives in Georgia; Mary Kay Andrews is actually a pen name she adopted in 2002—her real name is Kathy Hogan Trocheck—and (I find this so interesting!) her pen name is inspired by the names of her children, Mary Kathleen, so Mary K, and Andrew, so Andrews. I love details like that. I have lived in the South for 15 years this year, and I really resonate with Mary Kay Andrews’ Southern-flavored stories, but they’re relatable and totally compelling to anyone, anywhere, as her books at their heart deal with the human element.

Summers at the Saint by Mary Kay Andrews

Hi listeners! I have a very exciting announcement today—our episode today marks our 200th episode! Most podcasts don’t make it to 100 episodes, and to make it to 200 is a milestone I am so, so proud of and thrilled to achieve. All of you know that I’d Rather Be Reading is my absolute passion project and to have spent 200 episodes with you is an honor I don’t take lightly. I am raising a glass to all we’ve done here on the show and all that we will do.

As we continue to grow and expand, our focus will always be the best current nonfiction books, but I’m really enjoying our occasional forays into fiction on the show, and we’ll have a couple more before season 11 concludes. Today we have on the show Hannah Brown, who wrote a memoir, God Bless This Mess: Learning to Live and Love Through Life’s Best (and Worst) Moments in 2021; now she’s turning her focus to fiction with Mistakes We Never Made, which comes out May 7. I learned that this is actually book one in a two-book deal, which is exciting, because Hannah has a talent for this. Hannah has let us get to know her through most of her work heretofore—through her memoir, her podcast “Better Tomorrow,” and appearances on The Bachelor, The Bachelorette, and Dancing with the Stars, but in Mistakes We Never Made, we get to know Emma Townsend and Finn Hughes in this work of romance fiction that reads on the page just like a rom-com on the screen. Hannah is an avid reader and said of writing this book that “Storytelling is something I’ve always wanted to do,” and in this book we meet two characters who have had a ton of almosts together, and quite frankly, they can’t stand each other. Then, as one of their mutual friends is getting married, Emma and Finn have to pretend that they don’t remember all of their nearlys and so close but yet so far aways. There’s a big mystery in there and it is absolutely perfect for your upcoming beach trips, poolside lazy days, and such a refreshing escape from reality. I also get to talk to Hannah about wedding planning, as she has found her happily ever after, and I know you’ll enjoy this conversation as much as I did.

Mistakes We Never Made by Hannah Brown

In his latest book The Demon of Unrest: A Saga of Hubris, Heartbreak, and Heroism at the Dawn of the Civil War, Erik Larson—who I think is one of the best if not the best historical nonfiction writers there is—takes us back to the beginnings of the Civil War. In 1860, we see Abraham Lincoln elected president that November 6; Lincoln’s own reaction to his election is “God help me. God help me.” Just five months later, it’s April 12, 1861, a Friday; Larson writes that that day was destined to be the single-most consequential day in American history. It was that day, at Fort Sumter, South Carolina, that the Civil War began, a location Larson describes as a lonely federal fortress in Charleston Harbor. In the leadup and path to the Civil War, Southern states were seceding one after another, and Lincoln was powerless to stop them. Southern extremists were moving ever closer to destroying the Union when finally, on that day at Fort Sumter, a simmering crisis finally tore a deeply divided nation in two. In the months between his election and Fort Sumter, Lincoln is trying to keep the country together while dealing with betrayal in his own inner circle, attempting to avoid what would become the Civil War, beginning on that April day in 1861 and raging on until 1865, eventually killing 750,000 Americans. In this book, Larson draws on so much historical record—diaries, slave ledgers, plantation records, one of the most thrilling 600 pages I’ve ever read with not one page wasted. If you don’t know who Erik Larson is, please change that immediately, although if you are a lover of nonfiction, I’m all but certain you know who this man is. He has written six national bestsellers—The Splendid and the Vile, The Devil in the White City, Dead Wake, Thunderstruck, In the Garden of Beasts, and Isaac’s Storm—which have collectively sold more than 10 million copies. His books have covered topics ranging from the sinking of the Lusitania during World War I to Winston Churchill to an American ambassador in Hitler’s Berlin to the United States’ first serial killer, but in The Demon of Unrest, which is out today, April 30, Larson turns his gaze to Fort Sumter and the advent of the Civil War. Sit back and get ready to hear from someone who is a master at what he does.

The Demon of Unrest: A Saga of Hubris, Heartbreak, and Heroism at the Dawn of the Civil War by Erik Larson

Hi listeners—in our conversation today, we will be discussing suicide. If you or someone you know needs mental health help, please text STRENGTH to the Crisis Text Line at 741741 or visit crisistextline.org to be connected to a certified crisis counselor. You are not alone.

On the morning of Sunday, January 30, 2022, April Simpkins woke to a text from her daughter Cheslie Kryst that read “First, I’m sorry. By the time you get this, I won’t be alive anymore, and it makes me even more sad to write this, because I know it will hurt you the most.” That day Cheslie took her own life, and on her Instagram had, just hours before, written a final message: “May this day bring you rest and peace.”

Cheslie was Miss USA 2019, made the top 10 at the Miss Universe competition, was a complex civil litigation attorney, a correspondent for Extra and nominated for two Daytime Emmy Awards, creator of the blog White Collar Glam, a graduate of the University of South Carolina and Wake Forest School of Law with both a JD and an MBA, beautiful, intelligent, successful. But when you have depression—even high-functioning depression, which Cheslie’s mother, April, will explain in this episode—accomplishments don’t mean much, and oftentimes all that you can see is your perceived inadequacies. From the outside looking in, Cheslie appeared to have it all, but like with so many, there was inner turmoil beneath the surface. Cheslie said that she had imposter syndrome and a “constant inner voice repeating ‘never enough.’” She wrote it herself in a manuscript, which she left behind at her death, which shares the story of Cheslie’s life—the high highs, and the low lows. Her final wish was that her manuscript be published, and this week, on April 23, just over two years after her death, her mother April took the book across the finish line and put it out into the world. The first two-thirds of the book are Cheslie’s words; April comes in and finishes the book, allowing readers to meet not just one but two powerful women. That book—the fulfillment of a promise to her daughter—is called By the Time You Read This: The Space Between Cheslie’s Smile and Mental Illness—Her Story in Her Own Words, and it is a must-read.

I have dealt with suicide in my immediate family, but I have never lost a child. I cannot fathom and I cannot comprehend all that April has gone through in the two-plus years since losing Cheslie. April has turned her pain into purpose, becoming a mental health advocate and launching the Cheslie C. Kryst Foundation, which is being founded in Cheslie’s honor. Net proceeds from the book will be used to support the work of this foundation, and that thrills me to no end.

Today, April 28, is Cheslie’s birthday; she was born on this day 33 years ago. Stay tuned to hear how you can join in on Cheslie’s birthday party happening later today—where we can all join together to honor the life of someone who made an enormous difference in this world.

By the Time You Read This: The Space Between Cheslie’s

Join the birthday party live on Instagram at 3:30 p.m. EST on Sunday, April 28! April’s Instagram handle is @aprils_hr.