This week, Rhiannon and Michael talk to two immigration lawyers about what it’s like to practice under the second Trump administration, the unprecedented uncertainty their clients face, why habeas petitions are taking off, the freaks who become ICE lawyers and ICE judges, and why there’s actually…reasons to hope?? 

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5-4 is presented by Prologue Projects. This episode was produced by Alli Rodgers. Leon Neyfakh provides editorial support. Our website was designed by Peter Murphy. Our artwork is by Teddy Blanks at Chips NY, and our theme song is by Spatial Relations. Transcriptions of each episode are available at fivefourpod.com 

Follow the show at @fivefourpod on most platforms. On BlueSky, find Peter @notalawyer.bsky.social, Michael @fleerultra.bsky.social, and Rhiannon @aywarhiannon.bsky.social.

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