Impact Pricing

Rebecca Kalogeris is the Vice President of Marketing & Product Strategy at Pragmatic Institute. She has a contagious passion for telling brand stories and driving revenue. A true sales partner with the ability to quickly and effectively delve into markets and products, develop brand messaging, and build programs and teams that deliver results.  

She has a proven track record of delivering rapid revenue growth - One of Kapost's "Top 50 Product Marketers to Follow" - Passionate builder of teams, processes and infrastructure to meet organizational goals. She is also host of a popular weekly product management and marketing podcast. 

In this episode, Rebecca talks about the new Product Design course Pragmatic offers in partnership with the founding instructors of Cooper Education. She relates the importance of sales teams having the belief in the price so that they can be confident to go out there and win your price. She also highlights on who should own Pricing in the company as it relates to who creates value for people's willingness to buy. 

Why you have to check out today’s podcast:

• Find out how and when to decide the price 
• Learn about how deeply tied product management is to Pricing and see the depth of the connection and how powerful it can be 
• Find out what you can do to affect customers' willingness to pay 

"I would invest in more time…in explaining your price to sales." 

- Rebecca Kalogeris 

Increase Your Pricing Knowledge: Become a Champions of Value INSIDER!

To sign up go to insider.championsofvalue.com

Topics Covered:

01:28 - How Rebecca got into Pricing accidentally 

02:45 - Why she didn't get things right in the early part of her pricing career 

05:11 - Pragmatic DNA - What's the problem 

06:19 - Who should own Pricing 

06:46 - Which particular department should Pricing reside in the company 

08:03 - Why Product Management and Product Marketing should own Pricing 

09:52 - Is Product Marketing a better place to put Pricing 

10:55 - Her thoughts on product marketers being smarter than product managers 

11:43 - Why does Pragmatic not incorporating good, better, best Pricing 

16:16 - What Pragmatic is spending time on for a wider tool belt of items to create good, better, best Pricing 

17:18 - Founding instructors from Cooper education partnering with Pragmatic for a Product Design Course 

22:42 - Why product designers need to have a good understanding of the business in both the market and financial context 

23:25 - When to decide what the price would be 

24:32 - What to consider before building a solution 

25:21 - What can any member of the company do to affect someone's willingness to pay 

26:41 - Everyone in the company should create value and not destroy it 

Key Takeaways:

"Once you start to talk to the rest of the organization about why that is how you price, it's a big learning curve for all those departments you interact with, but it makes you think about everything differently. At the end of the day, that's where the money comes in. And to be able to tie those things together, I think, excites everybody and also kind of coordinates everybody around the same north star." - Rebecca Kalogeris  

"Product Management, Product Marketing, certainly we've seen Pricing and pricing strategists that come in more and more where it's an in-piece. I would not put that Pricing in Sales. And I would not put that Pricing in Finance. I think Finance is too far removed from the market, that's not their role. And Sales is too tied to individual customers versus the market to see some of those bigger trends." - Rebecca Kalogeris  

"I think designers get a much better understanding of the market. But the other thing that designers need is a really good understanding of the business because sometimes they're isolated from that in a way that product isn't." - Rebecca Kalogeris  

"I would say that you should decide what the price is going to be before you decide if you're actually going to build it." - Rebecca Kalogeris 

"What can you do as any member of that company to affect someone's willingness to pay and I think I was just reading a big study about customer loyalty and satisfaction, and sort of how important that literally, the experience they have in the purchase process to the experience they have what they call customer service, all really affect someone's willingness to pay." - Rebecca Kalogeris 

Resources / People Mentioned: 

• The Inmates Are Running the Asylum: Why High-Tech Products Drive Us Crazy and How to Restore the Sanity by Alan Cooper 

Connect with Rebecca Kalogeris:

• LinkedIn 
• pragmaticinstitute.com 

Connect with Mark Stiving:   

• Email: [email protected]
• LinkedIn

Jason Covitz is a VP of Pricing, Analytics, and Strategy at Safelite AutoGlass. His specialties include: P&L Management - CFO/CIO, Business & Risk Analysis, Value-Based Pricing, Sales Effectiveness, Product Management & Marketing, Business Strategy, and Data Analysis. And he has experience in a wide range of industries that includes Retail, Healthcare, Financial Services, Manufacturing, Online Services, Outsourcing, Telecommunications, Defense, and Strategic Consulting.  

In this episode, Jason talks about how to measure value and how to get paid for value you give. As a business for profit your goal is not so much about increasing your market share as it is about growing your revenue.

[powerpress] 

Why you have to check out today’s podcast:

• Learn how to make CFOs favor Value-Based Pricing more than Cost-Plus Pricing 
• Find out one strategic action to encourage sales teams to communicate better a products’ value  
• Learn how to turn sales conversations with sales teams to value conversations  

“Number one is listen. Go around as you're joining an organization, go talk to everybody and listen to what their problems are. And then the second part is, go add value there. They're going to tell you where the problems are, and where the problems are it's usually where the money is. Go solve that problem, that's worth money to you and the organization.”

- Jason Covitz

Increase Your Pricing Knowledge: Become a Champions of Value INSIDER!

To sign up go to insider.championsofvalue.com

Topics Covered:

01:32 - What brought Jason to Pricing 

01:58 - What is his analytics work all about  

02:57 - How his work in the competitive intelligence area relate to his being VP of Pricing  

04:02 - How Pricing touch every part of the company 

05:25 - How do CFOs look at Pricing 

06:46 - How scared or excited are CFOs to get involve in Pricing 

08:03 - How to get CFOs to think more about the Value Pricing and less of Cost-Plus Pricing 

09:48 - Taking a look at the dispersion chart 

13:18 - How to get around to stop the notion of Pricing people as ‘sales prevention’ 

15:39 - How to help the sales team sell value better 

18:41 - Understanding the win rate and communicating it to sales teams 

20:06 - Looking at win rate as true measure of whether pricing is doing well or not 

21:35 - How win rates are often calculated 

22:48 - What’s the right win rate 

23:50 - How to tell when you’ve reached the right win rate 

25:56 - What is a ‘Deal Desk’ 

27:47 - Why are ‘Deal Desk’ can be very transactional 

30:16 - What percentage of deals should you be approving 

31:34 - Seeing different approval rates by different people 

32:29 - Pricing advice that helps impact your business 

Key Takeaways:

“Once you understand what's going on in the market, what drives value, it's very easy to say, hey, I want to price it this way to win. And I want to win it, price it this way to maximize profit.” - Jason Covitz  

“My experience with sales teams are 5, 10 percent of sales teams get the value story. My experience is usually, find a champion, find the sales guy who is the value seller and find out a way to call out his achievements. And I call positive peer pressure, 'Hey, look what Bob's doing. Bob just did this. And as a result, he made all this extra money.'” - Jason Covitz  

“I think about pricing with a capital P, which means it should be doing price setting, it should be deal management, it should be doing the analytics, you know, if you're not doing all those pieces, as a price organization, you're missing your calling at every opportunity to drive impact.” - Jason Covitz  

“You want to understand win rate and you want to communicate that to sales teams. And you can cut that in multiple different ways. It doesn't have to be an overall win rate. It can be by size segment, geo, salesperson, just to kind of you know, push it a little further.” - Jason Covitz  

“Where you do interviews and go through the whole nine yards, people make decisions on four things, they make it on price, they make it on sales experience, they make it on operational experience, and they make it on product or solution capabilities. Those are the four, time and time again.” - Jason Covitz  

“I look at win rate, as kind of one of my true measures of whether my pricing is doing well or not.” - Jason Covitz  

Resources / People Mentioned: 

• Manage for Profit, Not for Market Share: A Guide to Greater Profits in Highly Contested Markets by Hermann Simon 
• Cardinal Health 

Connect with Jason Covitz:

• LinkedIn 
• E: [email protected] 

Connect with Mark Stiving:   

• Email: [email protected]
• LinkedIn

Jason Covitz is a VP of Pricing, Analytics, and Strategy at Safelite AutoGlass. His specialties include: P&L Management - CFO/CIO, Business & Risk Analysis, Value-Based Pricing, Sales Effectiveness, Product Management & Marketing, Business Strategy, and Data Analysis. And he has experience in a wide range of industries that includes Retail, Healthcare, Financial Services, Manufacturing, Online Services, Outsourcing, Telecommunications, Defense, and Strategic Consulting.  

In this episode, Jason talks about how to measure value and how to get paid for value you give. As a business for profit your goal is not so much about increasing your market share as it is about growing your revenue.

[powerpress] 

Why you have to check out today’s podcast:

• Learn how to make CFOs favor Value-Based Pricing more than Cost-Plus Pricing 
• Find out one strategic action to encourage sales teams to communicate better a products’ value  
• Learn how to turn sales conversations with sales teams to value conversations  

“Number one is listen. Go around as you're joining an organization, go talk to everybody and listen to what their problems are. And then the second part is, go add value there. They're going to tell you where the problems are, and where the problems are it's usually where the money is. Go solve that problem, that's worth money to you and the organization.”

- Jason Covitz

Increase Your Pricing Knowledge: Become a Champions of Value INSIDER!

To sign up go to insider.championsofvalue.com

Topics Covered:

01:32 - What brought Jason to Pricing 

01:58 - What is his analytics work all about  

02:57 - How his work in the competitive intelligence area relate to his being VP of Pricing  

04:02 - How Pricing touch every part of the company 

05:25 - How do CFOs look at Pricing 

06:46 - How scared or excited are CFOs to get involve in Pricing 

08:03 - How to get CFOs to think more about the Value Pricing and less of Cost-Plus Pricing 

09:48 - Taking a look at the dispersion chart 

13:18 - How to get around to stop the notion of Pricing people as ‘sales prevention’ 

15:39 - How to help the sales team sell value better 

18:41 - Understanding the win rate and communicating it to sales teams 

20:06 - Looking at win rate as true measure of whether pricing is doing well or not 

21:35 - How win rates are often calculated 

22:48 - What’s the right win rate 

23:50 - How to tell when you’ve reached the right win rate 

25:56 - What is a ‘Deal Desk’ 

27:47 - Why are ‘Deal Desk’ can be very transactional 

30:16 - What percentage of deals should you be approving 

31:34 - Seeing different approval rates by different people 

32:29 - Pricing advice that helps impact your business 

Key Takeaways:

“Once you understand what's going on in the market, what drives value, it's very easy to say, hey, I want to price it this way to win. And I want to win it, price it this way to maximize profit.” - Jason Covitz  

“My experience with sales teams are 5, 10 percent of sales teams get the value story. My experience is usually, find a champion, find the sales guy who is the value seller and find out a way to call out his achievements. And I call positive peer pressure, 'Hey, look what Bob's doing. Bob just did this. And as a result, he made all this extra money.'” - Jason Covitz  

“I think about pricing with a capital P, which means it should be doing price setting, it should be deal management, it should be doing the analytics, you know, if you're not doing all those pieces, as a price organization, you're missing your calling at every opportunity to drive impact.” - Jason Covitz  

“You want to understand win rate and you want to communicate that to sales teams. And you can cut that in multiple different ways. It doesn't have to be an overall win rate. It can be by size segment, geo, salesperson, just to kind of you know, push it a little further.” - Jason Covitz  

“Where you do interviews and go through the whole nine yards, people make decisions on four things, they make it on price, they make it on sales experience, they make it on operational experience, and they make it on product or solution capabilities. Those are the four, time and time again.” - Jason Covitz  

“I look at win rate, as kind of one of my true measures of whether my pricing is doing well or not.” - Jason Covitz  

Resources / People Mentioned: 

• Manage for Profit, Not for Market Share: A Guide to Greater Profits in Highly Contested Markets by Hermann Simon 
• Cardinal Health 

Connect with Jason Covitz:

• LinkedIn 
• E: [email protected] 

Connect with Mark Stiving:   

• Email: [email protected]
• LinkedIn

Natalie Louie is a Product Marketing strategist and leader who can build, scale, train and manage teams or roll up her sleeves to create and operationalize repeatable playbooks around positioning, messaging, go-to-market, product launches, customer journeys, training, competitive intelligence, win-loss analysis, customer and market research, sales enablement, pricing and packaging.  

She is a strong operator and strategist adept at working with C-level executives, board members and cross-functional teams to ensure alignment and execution excellence for projects inside and outside of her scope. She loves telling a great story where the customer is the hero. 

In this episode, Natalie talks about shifting pricing mindsets in the digital products space particularly under the subscription pricing model. 

Why you have to check out today’s podcast:

• Learn how to introduce a new recurring revenue model into your pricing system without getting rid of your one-time transaction 
• Learn how to make a win-win situation both for you and the client you are serving when introducing a recurring revenue model both for your hardware and software products 
• Find out all about new product pricing in the introduction stage, how to set prices for the very first time 

“Businesses are budgeting for how am I going to budget to unlock new growth going to a new normal, that COVID-19 brought out. And it’s all about making the right investments in your business so that you can adjust to new normal, which is all going to be in the digital space and digital world.”  

– Natalie Louie 

Increase Your Pricing Knowledge: Become a Champions of Value INSIDER!

To sign up go to insider.championsofvalue.com

Topics Covered:

01:34 – Natalie talking about her new role at Zuora 

02:07 – What does Zuora do 

03:55 – How inconvenient doing your subscription manually can become  

05:58 – Difference between manufacturing and software companies getting into recurring revenue 

08:23 – What should you anchor your pricing on 

10:05 – Replacing a one-time transaction with a recurring revenue model 

14:07 – Introducing recurring revenue pricing slowly  

15:00 – Talking about ancillary products and how does this work 

18:03 – How to go about introducing new services you are not so sure about 

19:27 – Narrowing your choices and finding out the best pricing strategy 

22:03 – Mobility as a service in the car industry service 

24:19 – Discussing hardware companies’ challenge with subscription pricing and overcoming it 

25:57 – One big pricing advice she gives that can make a big impact on anyone’s business 

Key Takeaways:

“Because they know what their product is, I’m selling my product, tell me the price point. And I have to switch the conversation to say, actually, it’s not about your price points. In fact, that’s the last thing that you figure out when it comes to switching to a recurring revenue model, you first have to think about what are you selling? What do they find value in?” – Natalie Louie 

“Just because you’re ready, it doesn’t mean your buyers are ready. So, they have to be ready for a new model. And you have to show them right that you can deliver it and have those customer touchpoints, and then you’d be delighted. You need to make sure everyone’s on board. And that just takes time.” – Natalie Louie 

“Software for free and charge for the hardware, but flip it the other way. Because that recurring relationship and payment for that software – that can go into pretty much infinity.” – Natalie Louie 

“If you’re just introducing those new services, and you’re not even sure how you price it, or package it, or to use it, then give it for free, because the data you’re collecting is very useful. And so, while you’re giving it for free, you’re creating a direct relationship with your consumer for the very first time.” – Natalie Louie 

“But the idea is if you build this long-term relationship with a lot of value, and you’re able to grow that customer lifetime value, in the long run, you’re going to win out and you’re going to have more revenue, and you’re going to keep growing.” – Natalie Louie 

Resources / People Mentioned: 

• Zuora 
• My Fitbit 
• Siemens 
• Caterpillar 
• Honeywell 
• Adobe 
• Ford 
• Impact Pricing Podcast: Natalie Louie Episode #9 
• Impact Pricing Podcast: Natalie Louie Episode #41 

Connect with Natalie Louie:

• LinkedIn 

Connect with Mark Stiving:   

• Email: [email protected]
• LinkedIn

Natalie Louie is a Product Marketing strategist and leader who can build, scale, train and manage teams or roll up her sleeves to create and operationalize repeatable playbooks around positioning, messaging, go-to-market, product launches, customer journeys, training, competitive intelligence, win-loss analysis, customer and market research, sales enablement, pricing and packaging.  

She is a strong operator and strategist adept at working with C-level executives, board members and cross-functional teams to ensure alignment and execution excellence for projects inside and outside of her scope. She loves telling a great story where the customer is the hero. 

In this episode, Natalie talks about shifting pricing mindsets in the digital products space particularly under the subscription pricing model. 

Why you have to check out today’s podcast:

• Learn how to introduce a new recurring revenue model into your pricing system without getting rid of your one-time transaction 
• Learn how to make a win-win situation both for you and the client you are serving when introducing a recurring revenue model both for your hardware and software products 
• Find out all about new product pricing in the introduction stage, how to set prices for the very first time 

“Businesses are budgeting for how am I going to budget to unlock new growth going to a new normal, that COVID-19 brought out. And it’s all about making the right investments in your business so that you can adjust to new normal, which is all going to be in the digital space and digital world.”  

– Natalie Louie 

Increase Your Pricing Knowledge: Become a Champions of Value INSIDER!

To sign up go to insider.championsofvalue.com

Topics Covered:

01:34 – Natalie talking about her new role at Zuora 

02:07 – What does Zuora do 

03:55 – How inconvenient doing your subscription manually can become  

05:58 – Difference between manufacturing and software companies getting into recurring revenue 

08:23 – What should you anchor your pricing on 

10:05 – Replacing a one-time transaction with a recurring revenue model 

14:07 – Introducing recurring revenue pricing slowly  

15:00 – Talking about ancillary products and how does this work 

18:03 – How to go about introducing new services you are not so sure about 

19:27 – Narrowing your choices and finding out the best pricing strategy 

22:03 – Mobility as a service in the car industry service 

24:19 – Discussing hardware companies’ challenge with subscription pricing and overcoming it 

25:57 – One big pricing advice she gives that can make a big impact on anyone’s business 

Key Takeaways:

“Because they know what their product is, I’m selling my product, tell me the price point. And I have to switch the conversation to say, actually, it’s not about your price points. In fact, that’s the last thing that you figure out when it comes to switching to a recurring revenue model, you first have to think about what are you selling? What do they find value in?” – Natalie Louie 

“Just because you’re ready, it doesn’t mean your buyers are ready. So, they have to be ready for a new model. And you have to show them right that you can deliver it and have those customer touchpoints, and then you’d be delighted. You need to make sure everyone’s on board. And that just takes time.” – Natalie Louie 

“Software for free and charge for the hardware, but flip it the other way. Because that recurring relationship and payment for that software – that can go into pretty much infinity.” – Natalie Louie 

“If you’re just introducing those new services, and you’re not even sure how you price it, or package it, or to use it, then give it for free, because the data you’re collecting is very useful. And so, while you’re giving it for free, you’re creating a direct relationship with your consumer for the very first time.” – Natalie Louie 

“But the idea is if you build this long-term relationship with a lot of value, and you’re able to grow that customer lifetime value, in the long run, you’re going to win out and you’re going to have more revenue, and you’re going to keep growing.” – Natalie Louie 

Resources / People Mentioned: 

• Zuora 
• My Fitbit 
• Siemens 
• Caterpillar 
• Honeywell 
• Adobe 
• Ford 
• Impact Pricing Podcast: Natalie Louie Episode #9 
• Impact Pricing Podcast: Natalie Louie Episode #41 

Connect with Natalie Louie:

• LinkedIn 

Connect with Mark Stiving:   

• Email: [email protected]
• LinkedIn

Reed Holden is an author and keynote speaker for Negotiating with Backbone and Pricing with Confidence. Reed provides B2B pricing and negotiating advice to clients building go-to-market strategies to drive price leadership, selling backbone, and profitable growth.  

Dr. Holden specializes in helping sales teams avoid the Procurement Buzz Saw by implementing strategies to recognize and counter margin-reducing buying tactics. 

In this episode, Reed talks about how Pricing has changed in the last twenty years. With the new normal still to stay for some time, he advises to fundamentally change the way we communicate with our people and pursue our customers to have a sustainable relationship strategy. We need to adjust our prices to reflect that change in our business model. But at the same time, we have to accommodate the changes in the customer's needs.

[powerpress] 

Why you have to check out today’s podcast:

• Find out the things to adopt and execute in your business to adjust to the new normal 
• Learn how to execute prices better at this time and form strategic partnerships with your clients for a sustainable relationship 
• Learn to recognize how the demand structure has changed in most industries so you can prepare your leadership team to think about using price to accomplish whatever objectives you have 

“If I look at the biggest mistake companies make today, it is that they don't understand the customers. They don't understand how they use this stuff.”  

- Reed Holden 

Increase Your Pricing Knowledge: Become a Champions of Value INSIDER!

To sign up go to insider.championsofvalue.com

Topics Covered:

01:19 - How he got started in Pricing 

02:29 - How to stop losing price in the last mile of pricing 

04:28 - What gives companies the ability to control price better these days 

04:50 - Why you need to understand your pricing tools 

07:36 - Understand your analytics 

08:42 - Understanding surrogate value 

09:41 - How demand structures in some industries are changing that you need to recognize 

11:04 - What you need to do in the meantime that things are not going back to normal 

12:45 - The reality of the whole retail industry out of the window now 

14:04 - Pricing based on how customer value your product during this new normal 

15:53 - Cost as a justification to raise prices 

18:08 - His plans of retiring 

21:10 - What does strategic partnership implies 

21:15 - What a true picture of a strategic partnership is 

23:07 - His thoughts on ‘charge customers with what they are willing to pay’ 

25:23 - Loyalty and segmentation  

27:54 - His important pricing advice that has a great impact on one’s business 

29:19 - Why you need to ask your customers 

Key Takeaways:

“If people don't understand the software and the methods they're using, they encounter problems.” - Reed Holden  

“You need to understand the tools, especially in today's world, how you have to change those tools to accommodate the new world.” - Reed Holden 

“You got to recognize that the demand structure of that particular market has changed. The demand structure of restaurants, of movies, of the automobile industry, of many industries is changing dramatically.” - Reed Holden 

“You have to understand how that demand structure is changing. And as a pricing person, you have to prepare your leadership team for not doing the stuff they did six months ago, but changing how they think about using price to accomplish whatever their objectives are.”  - Reed Holden 

“The whole retailing industry is out the window right now. They should have seen that coming 20 years ago when Amazon started making the push. And instead, they demanded, they pay the price now.”  - Reed Holden 

Resources / People Mentioned: 

• Pricing with Confidence by Reed K. Holden 
• The Strategy and Tactics of Pricing: A Guide to Profitable Decision-Making 2nd Edition by Reed K. Holden 
• Negotiating with Backbone: Eight Sales Strategies to Defend Your Price and Value by Reed K. Holden 
• Wall Street Journal 
• Fortune Magazine 
• JetBlue Airlines 
• Southwest Airlines 
• Bob Kaplan 
• Thomas Nagle 

Connect with Reed Holden:

• LinkedIn 
• Holdenadvisors.com 
• Email: [email protected] 

Connect with Mark Stiving:   

• Email: [email protected]
• LinkedIn

Reed Holden is an author and keynote speaker for Negotiating with Backbone and Pricing with Confidence. Reed provides B2B pricing and negotiating advice to clients building go-to-market strategies to drive price leadership, selling backbone, and profitable growth.  

Dr. Holden specializes in helping sales teams avoid the Procurement Buzz Saw by implementing strategies to recognize and counter margin-reducing buying tactics. 

In this episode, Reed talks about how Pricing has changed in the last twenty years. With the new normal still to stay for some time, he advises to fundamentally change the way we communicate with our people and pursue our customers to have a sustainable relationship strategy. We need to adjust our prices to reflect that change in our business model. But at the same time, we have to accommodate the changes in the customer's needs.

[powerpress] 

Why you have to check out today’s podcast:

• Find out the things to adopt and execute in your business to adjust to the new normal 
• Learn how to execute prices better at this time and form strategic partnerships with your clients for a sustainable relationship 
• Learn to recognize how the demand structure has changed in most industries so you can prepare your leadership team to think about using price to accomplish whatever objectives you have 

“If I look at the biggest mistake companies make today, it is that they don't understand the customers. They don't understand how they use this stuff.”  

- Reed Holden 

Increase Your Pricing Knowledge: Become a Champions of Value INSIDER!

To sign up go to insider.championsofvalue.com

Topics Covered:

01:19 - How he got started in Pricing 

02:29 - How to stop losing price in the last mile of pricing 

04:28 - What gives companies the ability to control price better these days 

04:50 - Why you need to understand your pricing tools 

07:36 - Understand your analytics 

08:42 - Understanding surrogate value 

09:41 - How demand structures in some industries are changing that you need to recognize 

11:04 - What you need to do in the meantime that things are not going back to normal 

12:45 - The reality of the whole retail industry out of the window now 

14:04 - Pricing based on how customer value your product during this new normal 

15:53 - Cost as a justification to raise prices 

18:08 - His plans of retiring 

21:10 - What does strategic partnership implies 

21:15 - What a true picture of a strategic partnership is 

23:07 - His thoughts on ‘charge customers with what they are willing to pay’ 

25:23 - Loyalty and segmentation  

27:54 - His important pricing advice that has a great impact on one’s business 

29:19 - Why you need to ask your customers 

Key Takeaways:

“If people don't understand the software and the methods they're using, they encounter problems.” - Reed Holden  

“You need to understand the tools, especially in today's world, how you have to change those tools to accommodate the new world.” - Reed Holden 

“You got to recognize that the demand structure of that particular market has changed. The demand structure of restaurants, of movies, of the automobile industry, of many industries is changing dramatically.” - Reed Holden 

“You have to understand how that demand structure is changing. And as a pricing person, you have to prepare your leadership team for not doing the stuff they did six months ago, but changing how they think about using price to accomplish whatever their objectives are.”  - Reed Holden 

“The whole retailing industry is out the window right now. They should have seen that coming 20 years ago when Amazon started making the push. And instead, they demanded, they pay the price now.”  - Reed Holden 

Resources / People Mentioned: 

• Pricing with Confidence by Reed K. Holden 
• The Strategy and Tactics of Pricing: A Guide to Profitable Decision-Making 2nd Edition by Reed K. Holden 
• Negotiating with Backbone: Eight Sales Strategies to Defend Your Price and Value by Reed K. Holden 
• Wall Street Journal 
• Fortune Magazine 
• JetBlue Airlines 
• Southwest Airlines 
• Bob Kaplan 
• Thomas Nagle 

Connect with Reed Holden:

• LinkedIn 
• Holdenadvisors.com 
• Email: [email protected] 

Connect with Mark Stiving:   

• Email: [email protected]
• LinkedIn

Marco Bertini is a Professor of Marketing at Esade, co-founder of the school’s Institute for Data-Driven Decisions, and previously served as department chair. He completed his doctoral studies at Harvard Business School and was on the faculty at London Business School before moving back to Barcelona.  

He is a co-author of the book "The Ends Game: How Smart Companies Stop Selling Products and Start Delivering Value," MIT Press, which explores how modern technology stimulates accountability, challenging organizations to succeed from the quality of the outcomes they deliver rather than the offerings they bring to market.  

In this episode, Marco talks about how some firms are rewriting the rules of commerce by pursuing “ends” (meaning the actual outcomes) rather than the selling process. He also shares real-world examples of how companies in utility, healthcare, transportation, education, and other sectors are already playing “the ends game” model.

Why you have to check out today’s podcast:

• Discover and know about a Pricing model called pay-per-laugh and pay-per love 
• Find out why you should be moving towards a performance pricing model in this day and age 
• Learn why you should price for the ‘Ends’, not the ‘means’ 

“Prices speak very loud to customers, very, very loud. And so, we should be listening to what they say and incorporate that into what we do.”  

- Marco Bertini 

Increase Your Pricing Knowledge: Become a Champions of Value INSIDER!

To sign up go to insider.championsofvalue.com

Topics Covered:

01:29 - What made him consider a career in Pricing 

02:43 - Why he wrote a book that’s not about what his background was 

03:48 - Three observations that point to what the book is all about 

06:11 - What do you charge for? 

08:01 - Objective value and perception value 

10:42 - The taxi meter effect pricing versus pricing for certainty 

14:21 - What is the difference between a Business Model and a Pricing Model 

16:42 - A theater charging by a laugh 

19:52 - What conditions must exist in order to achieve value satisfaction and end 

24:01 - The different levels of performance for different ends 

25:39 - Talking about risk and allocation 

26:19 - His best pricing advice that will greatly impact your business 

Key Takeaways:

“When you talk to organizations about pricing, they tend to focus mostly on that pricing decision, but then, I always thought that there is a much more important strategic decision that comes beforehand which is really about, what should my customers actually be paying for? What is the metric decision?” - Marco Bertini 

“So, we talked a lot in the book about how you need to be able to have, think about outcomes that are quantifiable, that are verifiable, but also they cannot be tampered with. That is a very, very important condition. And laughter, for example, is one of those things that, unfortunately, you can’t tamper with.”  - Marco Bertini 

“What conditions must exist in order to achieve value satisfaction and end? As a customer, I have to access a product or service, if I don't access your solution, I can't benefit from it eventually. Two, conditions on access, I have to consume it. If I don't consume it, I can't benefit from it eventually. Condition on access and consumption, it has to perform. Those three conditions together are necessary and sufficient in order to get value.”  - Marco Bertini 

“We're very careful in the book to say that we're not ever claiming that the business is wrong and tomorrow you should be selling for performance. We have a whole section of the book based on what needs to happen not to do that. But yes, we are pretty strong, claiming that, at the very least, ownership models in this day and age, with the technology that we have are pretty much inferior in most markets.” - Marco Bertini 

“Don't assume it's just a numbers game. It is certainly a numbers game, but it's much, much broader. Anything you can do to integrate whatever you do with prices, with your overall branding, or corporate strategy is well worth taking the time to do it.” - Marco Bertini 

Resources / People Mentioned: 

• The Ends Game: How Smart Companies Stop Selling Products and Start Delivering Value (Management on the Cutting Edge) by Marco Bertini 
• Power Pricing: How Managing Price Transforms the Bottom Line by Robert J. Dolan 

Connect with Marco Bertini:

• LinkedIn 
• marcobertini.com 

Connect with Mark Stiving:   

• Email: [email protected]
• LinkedIn

Marco Bertini is a Professor of Marketing at Esade, co-founder of the school’s Institute for Data-Driven Decisions, and previously served as department chair. He completed his doctoral studies at Harvard Business School and was on the faculty at London Business School before moving back to Barcelona.  

He is a co-author of the book "The Ends Game: How Smart Companies Stop Selling Products and Start Delivering Value," MIT Press, which explores how modern technology stimulates accountability, challenging organizations to succeed from the quality of the outcomes they deliver rather than the offerings they bring to market.  

In this episode, Marco talks about how some firms are rewriting the rules of commerce by pursuing “ends” (meaning the actual outcomes) rather than the selling process. He also shares real-world examples of how companies in utility, healthcare, transportation, education, and other sectors are already playing “the ends game” model.

Why you have to check out today’s podcast:

• Discover and know about a Pricing model called pay-per-laugh and pay-per love 
• Find out why you should be moving towards a performance pricing model in this day and age 
• Learn why you should price for the ‘Ends’, not the ‘means’ 

“Prices speak very loud to customers, very, very loud. And so, we should be listening to what they say and incorporate that into what we do.”  

- Marco Bertini 

Increase Your Pricing Knowledge: Become a Champions of Value INSIDER!

To sign up go to insider.championsofvalue.com

Topics Covered:

01:29 - What made him consider a career in Pricing 

02:43 - Why he wrote a book that’s not about what his background was 

03:48 - Three observations that point to what the book is all about 

06:11 - What do you charge for? 

08:01 - Objective value and perception value 

10:42 - The taxi meter effect pricing versus pricing for certainty 

14:21 - What is the difference between a Business Model and a Pricing Model 

16:42 - A theater charging by a laugh 

19:52 - What conditions must exist in order to achieve value satisfaction and end 

24:01 - The different levels of performance for different ends 

25:39 - Talking about risk and allocation 

26:19 - His best pricing advice that will greatly impact your business 

Key Takeaways:

“When you talk to organizations about pricing, they tend to focus mostly on that pricing decision, but then, I always thought that there is a much more important strategic decision that comes beforehand which is really about, what should my customers actually be paying for? What is the metric decision?” - Marco Bertini 

“So, we talked a lot in the book about how you need to be able to have, think about outcomes that are quantifiable, that are verifiable, but also they cannot be tampered with. That is a very, very important condition. And laughter, for example, is one of those things that, unfortunately, you can’t tamper with.”  - Marco Bertini 

“What conditions must exist in order to achieve value satisfaction and end? As a customer, I have to access a product or service, if I don't access your solution, I can't benefit from it eventually. Two, conditions on access, I have to consume it. If I don't consume it, I can't benefit from it eventually. Condition on access and consumption, it has to perform. Those three conditions together are necessary and sufficient in order to get value.”  - Marco Bertini 

“We're very careful in the book to say that we're not ever claiming that the business is wrong and tomorrow you should be selling for performance. We have a whole section of the book based on what needs to happen not to do that. But yes, we are pretty strong, claiming that, at the very least, ownership models in this day and age, with the technology that we have are pretty much inferior in most markets.” - Marco Bertini 

“Don't assume it's just a numbers game. It is certainly a numbers game, but it's much, much broader. Anything you can do to integrate whatever you do with prices, with your overall branding, or corporate strategy is well worth taking the time to do it.” - Marco Bertini 

Resources / People Mentioned: 

• The Ends Game: How Smart Companies Stop Selling Products and Start Delivering Value (Management on the Cutting Edge) by Marco Bertini 
• Power Pricing: How Managing Price Transforms the Bottom Line by Robert J. Dolan 

Connect with Marco Bertini:

• LinkedIn 
• marcobertini.com 

Connect with Mark Stiving:   

• Email: [email protected]
• LinkedIn

Craig Zawada is the Co-Author of The Price Advantage, one of the seminal books in pricing, and he is the Chief Visionary Officer at Pros. He was at McKinsey for 13 years, ended up leading their North American pricing practice. 

In this episode, Craig explains volatility and how it is present in businesses. He also shares how having the right or market-relevant price for your business is important and can have a huge impact on your business and in sales.

Why you have to check out today’s podcast:

• Learn how to know if your price is a market-relevant price 
• Know more about how businesses are slowly moving towards digital, self-serving pricing instead of negotiation 
• Find out how customer experience can affect your pricing

“View pricing as less of a management control issue and more of a customer experience issue.” 

- Craig Zawada

Increase Your Pricing Knowledge: Become a Champions of Value INSIDER!

To sign up go to insider.championsofvalue.com

Topics Covered:

01:50 - Craig explains what is volatility and where does it come from 

04:26 - How companies are leaning towards prices being delivered digitally instead of negotiated 

08:01 - Craig shares the challenges of moving towards a no-touch, digital self-serving pricing 

10:44 - Craig defines no-touch and low-touch 

12:01 - When does it make sense to put prices no-touch or low-touch? 

14:22 - Craig explains the history of pricing and the changes in the buyers 

17:30 - As a buyer, when do you negotiate or trust the price on the web? 

20:02 - Your perception as a buyer in the market 

22:06 - The trend across B2B companies moving towards the self-serve model 

23:19 - Craig explains the movement in distribution and negotiation of prices 

25:21 - How to find a market-relevant price? 

28:11 - His pricing advice that would have a big impact on your business 

29:21 - Pros’ Annual Outperform Conference that could help you

Key Takeaways:

“If you put a market-relevant price out there, that's easy to get, immediately available, they'll actually pay a little bit of premium for that, versus going through this long-negotiated process, because that takes time and money.” - Craig Zawada 

“You have to be collecting these signals, and then be able to interpret and build those into your actual prices in a much quicker way than, in this environment in the past that has been more static and you can take time.” - Craig Zawada 

“15 to 20% maximum should be a protracted negotiation process, where these are big deals multi-year, you know, it's meaningful to the supplier and super meaningful to the buyer, on that transaction.” - Craig Zawada 

“You have to have the ability to put that market-based price to make that decision quickly because if someone else is out there, and they can give that and it's, you know fair, seems fair, the evidence shows that they're increasingly going to move towards those channels.” - Craig Zawada 

“The future is moving towards where most businesses for most of their transactions are going to have the ability to go through the self-serve.” - Craig Zawada 

“A lot of companies are going through digital transformations, but they're not focusing on the pricing issue and relying too much on this, you know, "high list" price umbrella that's out there. So, think of your role from a customer experience standpoint, your role of how you deliver price, and that, I think is my one piece of advice going forward.” - Craig Zawada

Connect with Craig Zawada:

• Email: mailto:[email protected] 

Connect with Mark Stiving:   

• Email: [email protected]
• LinkedIn