In Between Them

Over 40 episodes of In Between Them, I've sat across from adults who were kids when their parents divorced — different ages, different cultures, different kinds of families. And when I ask each of them at the end of their episodes what their parents could have done differently, the answers overlap more than you'd ever expect.

So today, I'm giving you a list. Ten things — not from me, not from a textbook, but from the mouths of the kids themselves, now grown up. Ten things that, if parents going through divorce would actually do them, would meaningfully change what their children carry for the rest of their lives.

If you're divorcing, newly divorced, or deep into co-parenting right now — this is the one to bookmark. Share it. Come back to it. These are not opinions. They are patterns I've heard again and again.

Some of what I pull from the kids themselves:

The surprising thing almost every guest said about stepparents — and why welcoming them in may be one of the most protective choices you can make.

What the kids who were pulled into their parents' court cases wish you knew.

The one sentence Amanda wishes someone had just said to her, plainly, out loud, when her parents divorced. (Spoiler: it's free. It takes four seconds. Most parents never say it.)

Why Kelly — now the mother of an estranged son — sends him a text every week knowing it won't be answered. And why that's the model for how to show up when a child pulls away.

The clinical reason Carol Barkes gave for why a single zinger between adults, in front of a kid, undoes everything else you've tried to build.

And the number one thing, cited by nearly every single guest, that parents could do to meaningfully change the shape of their children's lives. It will not surprise you. It is free. It is entirely in your control. And almost no divorcing parent manages to actually do it consistently.

Tune in for the full list, with the specific stories, the specific guests, and the specific tools behind each one. This episode is designed to be the one you share with the divorcing friend, the client, the family member — anyone who is in the middle of this right now and needs a clear, practical, kid-centered guide.

Share this episode. Save this episode. Come back to it when things feel hard.

In Between Them is a podcast about what it really feels like to grow up between two homes — hosted by Shannon Darrow, divorce coach and mediator, featuring honest conversations with people about what their parents' divorce shaped, broke, and built in them.

Have a question, a story to share, or interested in being a guest? Reach Shannon directly at [email protected].

Follow the show on Instagram @inbetweenthempod, and if this episode resonated, please rate and review In Between Them on Apple Podcasts or Spotify — it's the single most helpful thing you can do to help other adult children of divorce find the show.

40 episodes in. For the first time on In Between Them, it's just me.

I started this show thinking I was starting a podcast. 40 guests later, I've realized I was really starting a listening practice — and the patterns that have come up, from people with wildly different ages, backgrounds, cultures, and family stories, have stopped surprising me and started teaching me.

In this solo episode, I pull together the common threads that run through almost every single conversation I've had on this show. Among them:

The "I'm fine" myth that so many adult children of divorce live inside — sometimes for decades — until adulthood or parenthood quietly unpacks it.

The surprising role of stepparents, who turned out to be the unsung heroes of so many of my guests' childhoods.

The parentified kids — the ones who were asked, implicitly or explicitly, to carry adult-sized things on children's shoulders.

The grandparent anchor — and why extended family may be the single most protective factor when a divorce fractures a nuclear one.

The triangulation and disparagement pattern that nearly every guest named as the most damaging dynamic of all — and what my experts, like neuroscience-of-conflict specialist Carol Barkes and matrimonial attorney Lisa Zeiderman, have taught us about why it hurts kids so profoundly.

The hard truth almost every guest arrived at eventually: the pain of divorce doesn't end when the papers are signed. For the children, especially, it is often only the beginning.

And finally, the redemption that gives this show its purpose: the gift of this pain, when it's processed and named, is a changed generation. Nearly every guest I've had has become the parent they didn't get.

I also pull together the standout insights from the experts who've joined me — Carol Barkes on the neuroscience of conflict, Lisa Zeiderman on the legal and financial realities of modern divorce, Sol Kennedy on the AI co-parenting tool he built from his own experience of "dreading the ding," Ashley Noelle on intentional conversation inside blended families, and therapist Veronica on what a lifetime of family dynamics looks like all the way through to the nursing home years.

If you're new to the show, this is a great place to start. If you've been here for all 40 — this one is for you. Thank you for listening, for sharing, and for every message you've sent that made me believe this work matters.

In Between Them is a podcast about what it really feels like to grow up between two homes — hosted by Shannon Darrow, divorce coach and mediator, featuring honest conversations with people about what their parents' divorce shaped, broke, and built in them.

Have a question, a story to share, or interested in being a guest? Reach Shannon directly at [email protected].

Follow the show on Instagram @inbetweenthempod, and if this episode resonated, please rate and review In Between Them on Apple Podcasts or Spotify — it's the single most helpful thing you can do to help other adult children of divorce find the show.

I feel honored to have heard this difficult story from a man who has made a beautiful life for himself and his family, much different than the way he was raised.

Craig was seven years old when the divorce hit. What followed was a childhood spent between two homes that were hard in very different ways — and often left him feeling like he had no real home in either.

His father was mean, angry, quick to temper, and often behaved in ways that weren't appropriate for a young boy. And yet: at Dad's house, Craig could ride dirt bikes, fish, do the "boy stuff" his soul was hungry for. So he wanted to be there. And he wanted to leave. Both, at the same time. His mother remarried a man Craig could never quite relate to — and his mother herself was difficult at times. There was, in short, no consistent father figure in either home. Over the years, Craig's coaches became the closest thing he had to one, and he had no real-life model for what a healthy relationship was supposed to look like. He describes his sisters and mother as loud; he describes himself as quiet. He often felt like an outcast in his own home.

The pull between wanting his dad and needing to protect himself from his dad is the ache that shaped everything. It was manageable-ish while everyone was in the same region. Then his father moved to Northern California, and Craig had to give up his summers to see him — until he no longer wanted to. The relationship narrowed to phone calls, and his father was skilled at guilt-tripping across the line. When Craig finally stood up for himself as a senior in high school, it created a real rift. His father missed his high school graduation. There was a brief attempt at reconnection when Craig was in college up north; it didn't last. His father wasn't at his wedding. His father doesn't really know Craig's wife or their children.

Craig speaks openly about the confusing mix that so many adult children carry: wanting a parent to be the parent, while confronting the hard truth that the person cannot safely be that. He and his father have had constant ups and downs, and it has never become anything more substantial than that.

What this episode is really about, though — and what makes it worth every minute — is the gift Craig has made from all of it: he has become an extraordinarily loving, present, and involved father to his two sons. He communicates. He shows up. He is, in every measurable way, the father he needed and didn't get. That is the resolution — not with his own dad, but with the boys who now call him Dad.

Craig's book recommendation: A Short Stay in Hell by Steven L. Peck.

In Between Them is a podcast about what it really feels like to grow up between two homes — hosted by Shannon Darrow, divorce coach and mediator, featuring honest conversations with people about what their parents' divorce shaped, broke, and built in them.

Have a question, a story to share, or interested in being a guest? Reach Shannon directly at [email protected].

Follow the show on Instagram @inbetweenthempod, and if this episode resonated, please rate and review In Between Them on Apple Podcasts or Spotify — it's the single most helpful thing you can do to help other adult children of divorce find the show.

Veronica isn't a child of divorce — but she is, in a very real sense, the perfect adult voice for the In Between Them mission. She grew up in Russia inside a deeply dysfunctional home, with an alcoholic father and a highly critical mother. At 17, she came to the United States. Since then, she has navigated two marriages, two divorces, and the raising of three children — with an unwavering commitment to not replicate any of what she experienced as a kid for the next generation.

Veronica is also a therapist, which means she brings both lived experience and clinical insight to this conversation. Her insights on putting kids first — on what actually needs to happen at the adult level so children come out of divorce whole — are exactly the kind of practical, compassionate guidance this show exists to amplify.

One thread we pull on that you'll want to hear in her own words: her time working in nursing homes and what she observed about elderly parents and their adult children. The dynamic that plays out in senior care is often the direct downstream of how families communicated (or didn't) decades earlier. The way a parent shows up in a child's life reverberates for the rest of both of their lives — not just in the kid years, not just in the divorce years, but literally into how kids show up for their parents at the end. Veronica has seen it firsthand, and it changes how you think about the choices you're making now.

Whether you're navigating divorce, parenting through the aftermath, doing your own generational healing work, or all three at once, this conversation is one to sit with. Veronica is trying to shine a light on how parents, families, and — most importantly — kids can come out of hard family experiences whole. She was a pleasure to speak with.

Veronica does not have a book recommendation this episode, but she is currently working on one of her own. When it drops, I'll be first in line.

About Veronica: Veronica is a therapist, mother of three, and two-time divorced woman on a mission to help families do better, parents do better, and people divorce better. She creates content across YouTube, Instagram, and Facebook to help others break generational cycles and prioritize their children through the hardest chapters of family life.

Find Veronica: YouTube: @thrivewithveronica Instagram: @thrivewithveronica Facebook: @thrivewithveronica

In Between Them is a podcast about what it really feels like to grow up between two homes — hosted by Shannon Darrow, divorce coach and mediator, featuring honest conversations with people about what their parents' divorce shaped, broke, and built in them.

Have a question, a story to share, or interested in being a guest? Reach Shannon directly at [email protected].

Follow the show on Instagram @inbetweenthempod, and if this episode resonated, please rate and review In Between Them on Apple Podcasts or Spotify — it's the single most helpful thing you can do to help other adult children of divorce find the show.

Bella was a child of divorce — but not a young one. She was 18 or 19 when her parents' marriage ended, and in this episode she articulates beautifully something that gets almost no airtime in the divorce conversation: what happens when parents treat their adult children like confidants.

The divorce came as a shock. Almost immediately, Bella was put in the middle. She became a bridge — the shuttle diplomat, the message-carrier, the one who knew things she shouldn't have known and had to hold them anyway. She quickly learned to suppress her own feelings and to stay "transparent" as a strategy for avoiding conflict — because either parent could react negatively to her plans, her opinions, or her ongoing relationship with the other. The boundaries she eventually tried to set were not well received.

The cost was concrete: she didn't go to college. She went to work to help out. Her responsibilities shifted overnight, and the path she thought she was walking into as a new adult was replaced by one nobody had asked her to walk. Being "old enough" did not protect her from any of it — in some ways it made things harder, because everyone around her, including her parents, assumed she was fine.

Even now, in her own adulthood with her own child, she is still managing the logistics of which grandparent gets to come to which birthday party. The middle didn't dissolve when she grew up.

Bella also opens up about her own divorce and the ways her upbringing has shaped how she parents her daughter today — including her hard, conscious commitment to never put her daughter between adults or use her as a bridge, the way she once was.

Toward the end, we touch briefly on the support group she co-founded with two friends called My Two Homes — a resource we'll explore in much more depth in a future episode with all three co-founders. What Bella and her friends are building is exactly the thing so many adult children of divorce wish had existed for them.

Bella's book recommendation: Signs by Tara Swart.

Find Bella and her co-founders: Instagram: @mytwohomes

In Between Them is a podcast about what it really feels like to grow up between two homes — hosted by Shannon Darrow, divorce coach and mediator, featuring honest conversations with people about what their parents' divorce shaped, broke, and built in them.

Have a question, a story to share, or interested in being a guest? Reach Shannon directly at [email protected].

Follow the show on Instagram @inbetweenthempod, and if this episode resonated, please rate and review In Between Them on Apple Podcasts or Spotify — it's the single most helpful thing you can do to help other adult children of divorce find the show.

If you have ever "dreaded the ding" — that moment your phone lights up with a message from your ex and your whole nervous system braces — this conversation is for you.

In this expert episode, we sit down with Sol Kennedy, founder of BestInterest, the AI-powered co-parenting app he built after living the very reality it now helps solve. Sol shares his own moment of realization — the middle-of-the-night notification that changed everything — and how a background in tech collided with a very personal need to create something no other co-parenting app has ever quite delivered.

A few of the threads we pull on together, that you'll want to hear in his own words:

Why the existing co-parenting apps often make things worse, not better — and what Sol built to solve the core problem instead of just recording it.

The three features of BestInterest that made me sit up straight in my chair as he described them (and had me revisiting my own not-so-distant memory lane).

Why "gray rocking" doesn't have to be a skill you spend years learning — and how the right tool can put you in a calmer, better-communicating place almost by default.

The distinction Sol draws between a therapeutic mindset and a judicial one — and why the therapeutic path is the one that actually changes patterns over time.

And the reason Sol chose the name BestInterest. (Hint: this app isn't really for co-parents.)

Tune in for the whole conversation — plus a candid look at how Sol partnered with Dr. Ramani Durvasula early on to shape what BestInterest could become. Whether you're in a high-conflict co-parenting dynamic, trying to get out of one, or protecting your kids from the collateral damage of one, this episode is a must-listen. BestInterest is free to try at bestinterest.app.

About Sol: Sol Kennedy is the founder of BestInterest, the AI-powered co-parenting app he built after navigating high-conflict co-parenting firsthand, and the host of the Coparenting Beyond Conflict podcast. BestInterest helps parents reduce exposure to harmful communication, respond more calmly, and keep important information organized — even when the other parent doesn't participate.

Find Sol:

Website: bestinterest.app

Instagram: @bestinterest.app

LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/solkennedy

Substack: coparentingbeyondconflict.substack.com

Podcast: bestinterest.app/coparenting-podcast

In Between Them is a podcast about what it really feels like to grow up between two homes — hosted by Shannon Darrow, divorce coach and mediator, featuring honest conversations with people about what their parents' divorce shaped, broke, and built in them.

Have a question, a story to share, or interested in being a guest? Reach Shannon directly at [email protected].

Follow the show on Instagram @inbetweenthempod, and if this episode resonated, please rate and review In Between Them on Apple Podcasts or Spotify — it's the single most helpful thing you can do to help other adult children of divorce find the show.

Jarrel was 12 or 13 when his parents divorced — on the heels of a new house, new neighborhood, new middle school, and none of his old friends. His significantly younger siblings meant that from day one he was cast as caretaker. The new house never quite felt like home.

His father was angry, and the small things would ignite him. Doors slammed and Jarrel would freeze mid-thought: was that for me, or for mom? He witnessed one frightening incident — no one was harmed, but it created a quandary he'd carry for years: he loved his dad and was unsure of him at the same time. His grandparents' place down the street became his refuge. He now sees the proximity as planned protection.

At 13, Jarrel was pulled into court. He and his siblings were brought by their grandparents and not told where they were going. He was interviewed more than once, peppered with questions by adults wanting his opinion on custody. He asked for 50/50 — because he thought it would keep things equal and not upset anyone. He didn't get it. What followed was over a decade of bouncing between homes, ongoing court battles, and both parents constantly poking him for information to use against the other. The case didn't fully close until his youngest brother turned 18.

Through all of it, Jarrel became the one who managed everything around him — parenting his little brothers, avoiding conflict, holding it together. His grandpa's apartment was the one steady room in his life. Before graduation, when the weight from his parents became too much, he lived essentially between his grandpa's place and his car. His depression got dark. Grandpa was, in his own words, always a light.

Years later, Jarrel learned things about his parents' own backgrounds that helped explain the behaviors he had lived through. He emerged extraordinarily adaptable, deeply self-aware, and open about the work — because talking about it makes it easier to grow. His goal now, plainly stated, is to be the best parent he can be, and to give his kids the relationship he didn't get.

Jarrel's book recommendations: What My Bones Know by Stephanie Foo, East of Eden by John Steinbeck, and the Harry Potter series by J.K. Rowling.

About Jarrel: Jarrel C.T. Thomas is a technologist who moonlights as a freelance writer and aspiring poet, dedicated to sharing evocative stories and experiences about all aspects of life. In his free time, he enjoys skateboarding, vinyl records, spending time with his wife and kids, and growing in his faith with God.

Find Jarrel: Website: jarrelthomas.com Instagram: @jarrelct.thomas LinkedIn: jarrel-thomas

A note on this episode: This conversation touches on parental conflict, family court, and periods of depression. If you or someone you love is struggling, please reach out — in the U.S., call or text 988 to reach the Suicide & Crisis Lifeline, 24/7.

In Between Them is a podcast about what it really feels like to grow up between two homes — hosted by Shannon Darrow, divorce coach and mediator, featuring honest conversations with people about what their parents' divorce shaped, broke, and built in them.

Have a question, a story to share, or interested in being a guest? Reach Shannon directly at [email protected].

Follow the show on Instagram @inbetweenthempod, and if this episode resonated, please rate and review In Between Them on Apple Podcasts or Spotify — it's the single most helpful thing you can do to help other adult children of divorce find the show.

This is a special collaborative episode of In Between Them, featuring Ashley Noelle — founder of Blended Bond. Two different angles on the same mission: helping parents do divorce better for the sake of their children.

Ashley landed on Blended Bond by living every version of a blended family a person can live. She was raised in one. She married into one.

She divorced. And she is now engaged, moving into a new blended family. Every stage of her life has been shaped by the reality of families joining, breaking apart, and rebuilding — which is precisely why she was uniquely positioned to notice a gap that almost nobody was filling.

When Ashley and her fiancé were bringing their families together, she said something to him that changed the entire trajectory of both her personal life and her business: "Let's listen to them and see what they have to say." She wanted to know what they could bring forward that was similar between the two homes, what needed to change, and what they could create together from all of it. When she went looking for resources to help, there were none. That was 2023. So Ashley built what didn't exist.

About a year ago, she launched Blended Bond — a conversation card game and resource designed to help blended families build stronger relationships through intentional, meaningful conversations. The idea is refreshingly simple, and that's exactly what makes it powerful. The cards do the work of asking the questions kids need to be asked and giving parents an easy way in to conversations that are often awkward, avoided, or overlooked entirely. Everyone gets a voice. Everyone gets a way to connect that should be natural but rarely is.

In this episode, Ashley walks us through her own childhood inside a blended family and how that experience shaped the founder she became. She built her business from scratch. She has nailed something basic done so well — and In Between Them listeners will feel it immediately: this is exactly the tool so many of us wish had existed when we were the kids trying to make sense of a family being rebuilt around us.

Community perk: use code INBETWEEN15 for 15% off any products at blendedbond.com.

About Ashley: Ashley Noelle is the founder of Blended Bond, a conversation card game and resource created to help blended families build stronger relationships through intentional, meaningful conversations. Inspired by her own experience building a blended family, Ashley created Blended Bond to make the conversations that can sometimes feel hard a little easier to start.

Find Ashley: Website: blendedbond.com Instagram: @theblendedbond

TikTok: @playblendedbond Facebook: Blended Bond Podcast: The Blended Bond

In Between Them is a podcast about what it really feels like to grow up between two homes — hosted by Shannon Darrow, divorce coach and mediator, featuring honest conversations with people about what their parents' divorce shaped, broke, and built in them.

Have a question, a story to share, or interested in being a guest? Reach Shannon directly at [email protected].

Follow the show on Instagram @inbetweenthempod, and if this episode resonated, please rate and review In Between Them on Apple Podcasts or Spotify — it's the single most helpful thing you can do to help other adult children of divorce find the show.

Susannah B was two years old when her parents split, growing up in 1970s New York City inside a creative family: her mother was singer-songwriter Carol Hall, the composer of "Free to Be… You and Me," and her father was a professional photographer working the same downtown creative scene. She has no memories of her parents together. Both agreed to stay in the city so the children wouldn't have to move between worlds, and when her stepfather came into the picture around age 6, Susannah felt she had a trio of support — three adults who loved her, even if their working artist schedules didn't look like anyone else's parenting.

For years, Susannah lived by a quiet mantra she now sees for what it was: "I don't remember my parents married, so there's nothing wrong with me." It was, she says honestly, a very effective way to pack the whole thing away and not deal with it. She used that framing for decades — and it worked, in the way things "work" when you don't examine them.

Then she became a mom. And a wife. And suddenly, everything she had packed away for so long began to unpack itself — not painfully, but clearly. The dots connected. She names how much of her adult processing has come through the lens of parenting her own child inside a two-parent home. Being able to see, day after day, the small partnerships and everyday co-presence she didn't have growing up gave her something she calls an invaluable perspective. Not sorrow. Understanding.

The other throughline of Susannah's life — and the one In Between Them listeners will feel deeply — is music as healing. She has done the work throughout her life and has been unafraid to be vulnerable in all facets: fostering a child, adoption, having her own child, and every artistic risk in between. Through her songwriting, she creates spaces for other people who are in the hard stages of their own lives — people looking for a light and a melody to bring clarity and hope where there hasn't been much of either. Her childhood and her life have prepared her to be exactly the artist who can hold those spaces for others.

About Susannah: Susannah B is a New York-raised, Los Angeles-based singer-songwriter and actress whose music blends emotional honesty, soulful melodies, and modern storytelling. Her live work centers on her collaboration with The Lowkeys — Michael Farrell (keys), Sean Hurley (bass), David Levita (electric guitars), and Victor Indrizzo (drums) — whose collective credits include work with Alanis Morissette, John Mayer, Lizzo, Beck, Lana Del Rey, Brandi Carlile, Macy Gray, Tim McGraw, and Faith Hill. Beyond music, Susannah leads songwriting workshops for at-risk youth and formerly incarcerated individuals, using creativity as a tool for healing and connection. Her message reaches more than 20,000 engaged women and music lovers.

Find Susannah: Instagram: @susannahbmusic Spotify: open.spotify.com/artist/1CMiWstVqqDU4DAEmPpZVY

In Between Them is a podcast about what it really feels like to grow up between two homes — hosted by Shannon Darrow, divorce coach and mediator, featuring honest conversations with people about what their parents' divorce shaped, broke, and built in them.

Have a question, a story to share, or interested in being a guest? Reach Shannon directly at [email protected].

Follow the show on Instagram @inbetweenthempod, and if this episode resonated, please rate and review In Between Them on Apple Podcasts or Spotify — it's the single most helpful thing you can do to help other adult children of divorce find the show.

Leslie was six years old and living in Argentina when her parents divorced — inside a family already navigating heavy loss, including the recent death of her grandfather. In Argentina, therapy is deeply woven into the culture, so Leslie and her sisters were placed in therapy right away. That early exposure to psychological language has been one of the through-lines of her entire life.

Her parents were high-conflict from the start of the split. Her father effectively forced her mother out of the apartment and didn't want to keep the girls, so they left together and her mother hustled to build a new home. Her father moved back in with his mother — Leslie's grandmother — as the family reeled from all the loss at once. Her dad wanted his own life. He would later say, in his own words, that he was selfish. He became what many adult children will instantly recognize as a "Disneyland Dad," while Leslie's mother handled all the real, hard, unglamorous work of parenting. Her parents cycled through reconciliations for years, and each time home life shifted with them. Their parenting styles clashed. Her father was involved intermittently but didn't help financially. When he did something truly unscrupulous while her mother was ill, that was the end. By the time Leslie was 12, they had cut ties for good — by then, the family was in America.

From early on Leslie stepped into a parenting role because she saw the gaps and could not stop herself from filling them. Her mother didn't want her to, but Leslie became the protector of her younger sisters from what their mother was going through and what their household actually was. She knows now that none of it was her responsibility, but she couldn't help but take charge. Attachment theory would later explain much of it. She sacrificed her teenage years mothering her sisters, and she was also the only child who kept a relationship with her dad — carrying that connection for years despite pressure from her mother and sisters to cut him and her paternal grandmother off entirely. No matter what Leslie chose, someone made her feel guilty for it. She was constantly battling to just be herself. Her sisters, she felt, were being shaped by her mother's version of everything.

In her later teens, things began to make sense. At 16, Leslie left her mother's house — a decision to save herself, which meant leaving her sisters to mature on their own. Her stepfather opened his home to her and, she says, saved her. He is her person. An ADHD diagnosis in her thirties helped even more pieces fall into place. Her relationship with her sisters was never what it could have been, and that is one of the quieter griefs she carries. In her own adult divorce, she discovered that parallel parenting — not co-parenting — was the only path to a healthy, stable, safe home for her daughter. It has been a journey, and she's navigating it beautifully.

Leslie's book recommendations: It's Not You by Dr. Ramani Durvasula, Should I Stay or Should I Go by Dr. Ramani Durvasula, and The Subtle Art of Not Giving a F*ck by Mark Manson.

In Between Them is a podcast about what it really feels like to grow up between two homes — hosted by Shannon Darrow, divorce coach and mediator, featuring honest conversations with people about what their parents' divorce shaped, broke, and built in them.

Have a question, a story to share, or interested in being a guest? Reach Shannon directly at [email protected].

Follow the show on Instagram @inbetweenthempod, and if this episode resonated, please rate and review In Between Them on Apple Podcasts or Spotify — it's the single most helpful thing you can do to help other adult children of divorce find the show.