About the Guest

Guido Palazzo is Professor of Business Ethics at HEC Lausanne, one of Europe's most cited business ethics scholars, and a recipient of the Max Weber Award for Business Ethics from the German President. He co-authored The Dark Pattern: The Hidden Dynamics of Corporate Scandals (2024), which maps the nine recurring toxic elements behind corporate failures at Boeing, Volkswagen, Theranos, and Uber, and has consulted leadership teams at Siemens, Airbus, Johnson & Johnson, and the Federal Reserve Bank of New York.

Guido Palazzo’s Philosophy

Context is stronger than reason, values, morals, and best intentions

Organizational pressures create environments where good people become ethically blind.

Episode Highlights:

🕶️ Ethical Blindness: Why Good People Do Bad Things

Guido explains his core thesis that "ethical blindness" explains why good people do bad things, and how it differs fundamentally from simple corruption. Most corporate misconduct doesn't happen because of a handful of bad actors—entire organizations fall off the moral cliff because good people become ethically blind to the moral dimensions of their actions.

🌑 Passionate About the Dark Side

Guido describes himself as "passionate about the dark side of the force" and explains what initially drew him to study the mechanisms of unethical behavior rather than just the virtues of good leadership. This counterintuitive focus has made him one of the world's most influential voices in understanding organizational ethics failures.​on.​

📐 The Nine Elements of the Dark Pattern

Drawing from The Dark Pattern, Guido walks through the nine toxic elements that appear repeatedly in corporate scandals: rigid ideology, toxic leadership, manipulative language, corrupting goals, destructive incentives, ambiguous rules, perceived unfairness, dangerous groups, and a slippery slope. These building blocks combine to create the conditions for organizational catastrophe.

🎭 Psychopathic Leadership and Accelerated Corruption

Guido's research found that psychopaths are often adept at "elbowing colleagues out of the way," and he explains how the presence of psychopathic traits in leadership accelerates the spread of the Dark Pattern throughout organizations. The most dangerous leadership trait isn't always visible in traditional assessments.

🌍 From Supply Chains to Organized Crime

Guido's research extends beyond corporate boardrooms to organized crime and human rights violations in global supply chains. He explains how the dynamics of the "Dark Pattern" apply to these broader global issues, including his award-finalist research on Cosa Nostra in Sicily.

🎯 Corrupting Goals vs. Ambitious Goals

Guido discusses "corrupting goals" and "destructive incentives," revealing how leaders can distinguish between an ambitious goal and a dangerous "corrupting goal" before it's too late. This distinction is critical for preventing the dark pattern from taking hold.

💉 The Vaccine Against Organizational Corruption

Drawing from decades of research and consulting with organizations that faced massive ethical crises, Guido identifies the most effective vaccines against organizational corruption and how CEOs can audit their own cultures for signs of "tunnel vision" or "ethical blindness".

⚙️ Context Stronger Than Reason

Guido unpacks his provocative statement that "context is stronger than reason," explaining what specific organizational pressures create contexts where otherwise ethical employees lose their moral compass. This insight challenges fundamental assumptions about individual character and ethical behavior.

🌅 Maintaining Optimism in the Darkness

After spending years analyzing the worst corporate behavior—from Boeing's 737 MAX to Volkswagen's Dieselgate to Theranos—Guido shares how he maintains his own optimism and belief that organizations can truly reform after scandal.

📚 Resources & Contact

* Website: guidopalazzo.com​​

* University Profile: HEC Lausanne Faculty

* Google Scholar: Publications & Citations

* Book: The Dark Pattern: The Hidden Dynamics of Corporate Scandals

* Connect via LinkedIn: Guido Palazzo

Jowanza’s guest is Trae Mazza, a Senior Security Engineer at RMC Global and the researcher who discovered critical vulnerabilities in Siemens RuggedCom devices that triggered multiple CISA advisories. His job is to break into power plants, water treatment facilities, and industrial control systems—legally—and what he finds should keep every industrial operator awake at night.

Trae Mazza’s Philosophy

You need to think like an attacker to defend effectively—and sometimes you need to hire someone to show you just how creative those attackers can be.

Offensive cybersecurity uses the same tools, techniques, and mindset as cybercriminals, but with permission, documentation, and the singular goal of making critical infrastructure more secure.

Episode Highlights:

🔓 What “Offensive Cybersecurity” Actually Means

“Offensive cybersecurity” is another term for ethical hacking—using attacker techniques to test defenses. For a long time, “hacking” carried a strictly negative connotation, and Trae discusses how he helps organizations embrace ethical hacking as the path to understanding and fixing their weaknesses before adversaries exploit them.​​

⚠️ The Siemens RuggedCom Discovery

Trae walks through how he and his team at RMC identified critical vulnerabilities in Siemens RuggedCom ROXOS II devices—widely deployed industrial networking equipment—that led to multiple CISA advisories. The vulnerabilities involved a remote code execution attack chain, and he explains in accessible terms what makes this type of vulnerability so dangerous for industrial networks, where a single compromised dependency can undermine an entire operation.​

🏭 OT vs. IT: A Different Security Universe

Trae works with SCADA and Industrial Control Systems daily and explains how securing a power plant or water treatment facility differs fundamentally from securing a corporate network. The stakes, the legacy equipment, the protocols, and the consequences of failure all create a uniquely challenging environment.​​

🏙️ Exploiting Smart City Deployments

Smart grid and smart city deployments are expanding rapidly, and Trae’s 2023 SecurityWeek ICS Cyber Security Conference presentation revealed the unique vulnerabilities that emerge when we make infrastructure “smart”. His research on the Wi-SUN wireless communication protocol—used in street lighting, smart metering, public safety, and environmental monitoring—exposes how expanded connectivity creates expanded attack surfaces.​

🔧 From Firmware to Front Door: The Full Attack Spectrum

Trae’s expertise spans web applications, hardware hacking, firmware analysis, and physical penetration testing. He reveals which type of assessment typically uncovers the most critical vulnerabilities in industrial environments, and shares examples of how physical access can lead to complete system compromise in OT environments.​​

🎭 Social Engineering in Critical Infrastructure

Social engineering remains a powerful attack vector, and Trae discusses how he approaches social engineering assessments for critical infrastructure—where the consequences of a successful attack extend far beyond data theft.​​

📡 IIoT: Adding Risk Faster Than We're Fixing It?

Industrial IoT devices are proliferating rapidly, and Trae shares his methodology for identifying vulnerabilities in embedded systems and IIoT devices that traditional scanners miss. From his testing experience, he assesses whether manufacturers are getting better at security or whether we’re adding risk faster than we’re addressing it.​

🔮 The Future of Ethical Hacking in Industrial Security

The cybersecurity profession is maturing, with more emphasis on ethics and responsible disclosure, as demonstrated by Trae’s coordinated disclosure process with Siemens. He discusses where he sees the role of ethical hackers evolving in industrial security over the next decade.

📚 Resources & Contact

* RMC Global: rmcglobal.com

* Siemens RuggedCom Research: ROXOS II OS Remote Code Execution Attack Chain

* Smart Cities & AMI Security: AMI: the Key to Safeguarding Smart Cities & Urban Energy

* Connect with Trae: Trae Mazza

About the Guest

Josh Bryant is General Manager - People, Risk (HSE) and Sustainability at Mitchell Services Limited (ASX: MSV), one of Australia's leading mineral drilling contractors. With over 20 years of experience, Josh has established himself as a transformational leader in mining safety culture. He holds a B.Sc in Geology and a Graduate Diploma in Applied Finance, and was awarded the 2018 Prospect Mining Award for Safety Advocacy and the 2020 AusIMM Jim Torlach Award for Professional Excellence.

Josh Bryant’s Philosophy

Stop managing safety through procedures and start understanding how work actually happens.

Josh is a strong promoter in the industry of ‘Safety Differently/Human and Organisational Performance’ practices and genuinely passionate about people, workforce diversity, and the improvement of systems that support employees and clients.​

Episode Highlights:

⛏️ Two Decades in Mining Safety

Josh traces his journey through over 20 years in the safety and risk management field, working with some of the largest global mining companies in Australia. His experience spans geology, technical services management, and senior roles at BHP, including health, safety, and business improvement at the Olympic Dam mine in South Australia.

🔄 The Cultural Transformation at Mitchell Services

Josh reveals the catalyst for introducing a "Human & Organisation Performance/Safety Differently" approach that fundamentally changed organizational culture at Mitchell Services. Josh explains how he scaled safety culture and risk management systems to keep pace with this rapid expansion while maintaining—and improving—safety performance.

⚠️ Fatal Risk Management in High-Stakes Environments

Mining is inherently high-risk, with fatal hazards that are real, immediate, and unforgiving. Josh shares his approach to fatal risk management and the unique safety and risk challenges in drilling and exploration services compared to production mining.

🔗 The Integration of People, Risk, and Sustainability

Josh’s role uniquely combines People, Risk (HSE), and Sustainability under one leadership position. He explains how these three areas are fundamentally interconnected and why managing them together makes perfect sense for organizational effectiveness.

🎯 Strategic Risk to Practical Action

With extensive experience in both operational and strategic environments, he discusses the balance between maintaining production targets and a genuine human-centered approach in an industry often focused on output.​

📊 Measuring Cultural Transformation

Josh shares the metrics and indicators that matter, along with the questions mining companies should ask when evaluating drilling contractors’ safety and risk management capabilities.​

📚 Resources & Contact

* LinkedIn

* Mitchell Services Limited

About the Guest

In this episode, the guest is Dr. Charles Coker—CEO of LifeThrive Performance Systems and a pioneer in human data management. As a co-founder of The Balfour Motivational Research Institute (BMRI), he spent years identifying and codifying the key human factors that contribute to motivation and success. Dr. Coker presents a unique blend of academic research, corporate consulting experience, and faith-based leadership development, helping people discover their God-given purpose.

Charles Coker's Philosophy

The most important data in any organization is in the hearts and minds of the people doing the work.

Emotionally disengaged staff leads to burnout—and in high-risk industries, disengaged employees aren't just an HR problem, they're a safety problem. When people are emotionally checked out, errors increase, communication breaks down, and the systems we build to protect them become less effective.

Episode Highlights:

🔬 The Science of Human Data

​​Dr. Coker explains what "human data" really means—the behavioral patterns, motivational drivers, and emotional intelligence factors that determine success in individuals and organizations. For over 35 years, he's been decoding what makes people tick, what motivates them, and how leaders can harness that knowledge to build truly engaged teams.

📊 The 2012 Landmark Study

Dr. Coker shares findings from his landmark 2012 research showing that emotional intelligence and key employee capacities can be improved at double-digit percentile rates. He discusses the methodology that drives these remarkable results and what differentiates his behavioral and motivational tools from traditional personality assessments.

🧠 Understanding Behavioral Wiring

Dr. Coker explores how leaders can understand their own “behavioral wiring” and why this awareness transforms leadership effectiveness. He addresses the critical question: Is emotional intelligence truly teachable, and how can leaders systematically develop it?

⚖️ Leading with Heart and Mind

In high-pressure organizational environments, leaders face the challenge of balancing empathy with accountability. Dr. Coker provides practical guidance on how to lead with "both heart and mind" without compromising either dimension.

⚠️ The Warning Signs of Disengagement

Discover how to measure emotional engagement and identify the warning signs that a team is becoming disengaged. Understanding these signals early can prevent burnout and reduce organizational risk.​

👥 The Art and Science of Mentoring

Through his teaching at BiblicalTraining and Westminster Theological Centre, Dr. Coker has developed expertise in mentoring and personal formation. He shares what makes a great mentor, the most common mistakes mentors make, and how personality type affects the mentoring relationship.​

📚 Resources & Contact

* LifeThrive Performance Systems: www.lifethrive.com

* Mentoring and Personal Formation courses: BiblicalTraining.org

* LinkedIn: Dr. Charles Coker

In this episode of Industrial Risk: Beyond the Blueprint, Charles Paajoe (Charles Tetteh)—Ghanaian-American photographer, safety leader, and founder of Humans Among Us—joins host Jowanza Joseph to explore how photography becomes a bridge between cultures, who the “voiceless” are in America’s industrial heartland, and why the skills that make great storytelling also make great safety leadership.​

About the Guest

Charles Paajoe Tetteh is a Ghanaian-American photographer who made an extraordinary journey from Accra, Ghana to Rock Springs, Wyoming in 2008, moving from one of Africa’s most densely populated nations to one of America’s least populated states. By profession, he serves as Health Safety Environment and Transportation Manager at Tata Chemicals Soda Ash Partners, bringing the same curiosity, humble inquiry, and trust-building skills to his safety work that he uses behind the camera.

Through his project Humans Among Us, Charles captures stories of people and places that often go unseen, guided by the Ubuntu philosophy “I Am Because We Are”—the African concept that our humanity is fundamentally interconnected.

Charles Tetteh's Philosophy

Photography, at its core, is more than just capturing moments—it’s about storytelling. For me, it’s a way of preserving the soul of a moment, a culture, or a person in a single frame. Photography is “a sacred act” that requires curiosity, meaningful relationships, and humble inquiry to capture authentic human essence.

“I Am Because We Are”—the Ubuntu philosophy from African culture shapes how Charles approaches both photography and community, recognizing that our humanity is fundamentally interconnected.

Episode Highlights:

🌍 From Accra to the American West: An Unlikely Journey

Charles traces his extraordinary path from growing up in Ghana to his 2008 move to Rock Springs, Wyoming—one of the most dramatic cultural and geographic transitions imaginable. He shares his first impressions of Wyoming, how they evolved over time, and what challenges he faced integrating into the Wyoming community. Photography became the bridge that helped him connect across cultural gaps.​​

📸 The Dual Path: Safety Leader and Storyteller

Charles discusses how his two professional paths—safety leadership and photography—developed in parallel, and the moment he realized the skills overlap profoundly. He explores how visual storytelling—the kind he does through Humans Among Us—can help organizations document and communicate safety culture in ways that traditional reports cannot, making the human element of safety visible and tangible.

🏔️ Rock Springs: Mining History, Diverse Heritage, Difficult Stories

Rock Springs has a rich mining history and diverse ethnic heritage, presenting unique challenges for a photographer committed to capturing authentic stories. Charles explains how he approaches photographing communities with complex, difficult histories while honoring the dignity of the people who live them.​

📰 NPR and National Storytelling

Charles recently contributed photography to NPR’s story about rural doctors battling misinformation in Rock Springs, documenting Dr. Banu Symington and other healthcare providers navigating conspiracy theories and physician recruitment challenges in rural communities. He shares how that assignment came about, what it was like photographing his own community for national media, and what he learned about visual storytelling at the national level versus his independent work.​

🎤 Giving Voice to the Voiceless

Charles’s tagline mentions “giving a voice to the voiceless”—but who are the voiceless in Wyoming’s industrial heartland? He explores how photography can give frontline workers a voice in safety conversations and how visual storytelling can document and communicate safety culture in ways that traditional reports cannot.​

🤝 Humble Inquiry as Core Methodology

Charles describes curiosity, meaningful relationships, and humble inquiry as essential tools, explaining what “humble inquiry” means to him and how it guides both his photography and safety work. His ability to build trust with strangers quickly enough to capture their authentic essence translates directly to critical human factors in safety culture.​

📚 Resources & Contact

* Website: humansamongus.org

* About Charles Paajoe Tetteh

* Instagram: @thru.the.lens.of.paajoe

* Facebook: Charles Paajoe Tetteh Photography

Featured Work:

* NPR: “In rural America, scarce doctors battle misinformation” (October 2025) - Photography by Charles Paajoe Tetteh​

In this episode of Industrial Risk: Beyond the Blueprint, Jeff Krimmel reveals how first principles analysis cuts through market chaos to inform capital decisions, M&A diligence, and strategic positioning in the evolving energy landscape.

About the Guest

Jeff Krimmel is the founder of Krimmel Strategy Group (KSG), a strategy consulting firm focused on the energy sector, with a PhD in Mechanical Engineering from Caltech and previous roles as Chief Strategy Officer at Pinnacle, and experience at Baker Hughes and Key Energy Services.

Jeff Krimmel’s Philosophy

Introducing appropriate rigor to decision-making processes helps companies deploy capital more effectively.

All energy sources are imperfect; the key is balanced analysis that cuts through ideology to understand real-world tradeoffs and market dynamics.​

Episode Highlights:

🎓 From Kidney Stones to Oil Wells: An Unconventional Path

Jeff traces his unexpected journey from defending a PhD thesis on computational modeling of shockwave lithotripsy at Caltech in early 2010—right as the financial crisis reshaped career prospects—to discovering a passion for commercial strategy and market intelligence in the energy sector. His path through Baker Hughes’ Science and Technology Leadership Development Program moved him from deeply technical work to a career that applies engineering rigor to business problems.​​​

🔬 First Principles Analysis in Energy Markets

Jeff explains what “first principles analysis” means in practice when analyzing energy markets—breaking down complex market dynamics to fundamental components and building understanding from the ground up rather than relying on narratives or conventional wisdom. This approach informs his work creating models that forecast oil prices, rig counts, and multi-year capital decisions.​

📊 What Makes a Good Energy Market Model

Drawing from years building profitability models, market share trackers, and strategic forecasting tools, Jeff reveals what makes a good energy market model and where most models fail—including the single flaw he would fix in how most energy market models are built today.​​

🔍 M&A Diligence Red Flags

Having guided M&A diligence and corporate venture investments during his time as Chief Strategy Officer at Pinnacle, Jeff shares the red flags he looks for when evaluating energy sector deals and how to balance quantitative rigor with the qualitative, human elements of business strategy.​​

💰 Capital Discipline in the New Reality

Jeff discusses what rigor looks like in practice when it comes to deploying capital more effectively, and how to help risk-averse executives embrace the mindset of leaning into ambiguity and uncertainty to find opportunities rather than retreating from them.​​

⚡ The Energy Transition Reality Check

Jeff unpacks several critical energy transition questions:​

* Why natural gas will likely fill much of the gap for the next decade given constraints on renewables and nuclear

* How carbon capture technologies and deregulation are reshaping the competitive landscape, particularly for smaller operators

* The impact of the “Big Beautiful Bill” and changes to renewable subsidies under the IRA on energy transition timelines

* High-cost producer challenges exemplified by Oxy’s production cost structure

📚 Resources & Contact

* Krimmel Strategy Group: krimmelsg.com

* Consulting Services: Energy Consulting: Market Research & Pricing Strategy

* LinkedIn: Jeff Krimmel

In this episode of Industrial Risk: Beyond the Blueprint, Steve Munn—Client Advisor and Master Work Comp Advisor at MAI Risk Advisors—joins host Jowanza Joseph to reveal the critical difference between simply buying insurance and actively managing risk to protect your bottom line.

About the Guest

Steve Munn, MBA, MWCA is a Client Advisor and Master Work Comp Advisor at MAI Risk Advisors and Main Street Insurance Group based in Augusta, Georgia, where he specializes in helping businesses take back control of their risk management and workers’ compensation programs. With a unique philosophy of “playing defense for your business,” Steve leads clients through a comprehensive 4-step process—Discover, Determine, Deliver, and Defend—that transforms how companies manage risk while significantly improving profitability.

Steve Munn’s Philosophy

Playing defense for your business” means moving beyond reactive insurance buying to proactive risk management that makes companies not just safer, but significantly more profitable.​​

Organizations that thrive are those that move beyond the blueprint of basic coverage and embrace a continuous cycle of discovering, determining, delivering, and defending against risk.​

Episode Highlights

🎓 From Sheffield to the CSRA: A Risk Management Journey

Steve traces his path from earning an MBA at The University of Sheffield to specializing in risk management and workers’ compensation in Augusta, Georgia’s CSRA (Central Savannah River Area) region. He discusses what drew him to this specialization and the unique risk challenges businesses face in this industrial corridor.​​

🔄 The 4-Step Process: Discover, Determine, Deliver, Defend

Steve walks through his unique risk management methodology that goes far beyond traditional insurance brokerage.

💰 The 50% Problem: Workers’ Compensation Mistakes

As a Master Work Comp Advisor, Steve reveals that MAI’s experience shows over 50% of employers are paying too much for workers’ compensation because premium audits aren’t accurate, experience modification rates are incorrect, or overcharges go undetected. He identifies the most common—and costly—mistakes businesses make with their workers’ comp programs and the most expensive assumptions business owners make.​

🔐 Cyber Risk in Manufacturing

Steve discusses insights from his Accredited Cyber Risk Advisor certification, addressing why manufacturers are particularly high on the target list for cybercriminals and what emerging “sleeper risks” aren’t yet on most executives’ radars.​​

📋 Beyond Insurance: Portfolio Gaps and Non-Insurance Solutions

Insurance is often seen as the primary defense, but Steve identifies the biggest mistakes and gaps he finds in companies’ insurance portfolios. More importantly, he shares the most underrated non-insurance tools in a risk manager’s toolkit that can dramatically reduce exposure.​​

🤝 Surety Bonds and Risk Strategy

For listeners unfamiliar with surety bonds, Steve explains when businesses need them and how they relate to overall risk strategy—drawing on MAI Risk Advisors’ years of experience and awareness of the surety marketplace.​​

📈 Proving ROI: From Skepticism to Believers

Steve shares case studies where clients were initially skeptical about investing in comprehensive risk management but saw undeniable return on investment once they implemented the 4-step process.

📚 Resources & Contact:

* Website: www.mairiskadvisors.com

* LinkedIn: Steve Munn - Playing defense for your business

About the Guest

Lewis Eisen, JD, CIP has been called “the man who makes policies fun”—and after 40 years as a lawyer, federal policy writer for the Government of Canada, and business consultant, he’s proven that strict rules don’t have to read like punishment. As a two-time Britt Literary Award winner (2020 and 2025), IQ Article of the Year recipient (2024), and creator of the Perfect Policies™ approach, Lewis has revolutionized how organizations worldwide communicate expectations, replacing the command-and-control language that triggers resistance with respectful wording that earns cooperation.

Lewis Eisen’s Philosophy

Employees and customers don't resist rules because they're strict; they resist rules that feel disrespectful or demeaning.

The language you choose when setting administrative policies provides insight into the amount of respect you have for your employees—and unintentional negative messages conveyed by your wording can undermine your goals without you even realizing it.

Episode Highlights

📜 From Lawyer to Policy Revolutionary

Lewis traces his journey from practicing law in Toronto to founding the Perfect Policies™ approach, sharing the pivotal moment that made him realize traditional policy language was fundamentally flawed in encouraging compliance. His experiences working across multiple federal departments revealed common problems with traditional policy writing that inspired him to develop an entirely new methodology starting in 2015.​

🎯 The Perfect Policies™ Approach

Lewis explains the core principles of the Perfect Policies™ approach and how it differs from conventional rule-making frameworks that have dominated organizational policy for decades. He addresses the critical challenge: how do you balance being respectful while maintaining the authority and enforceability of corporate rules?​

⚠️ Common Policy Mistakes That Undermine Compliance

Organizations routinely make mistakes when drafting policies that inadvertently undermine compliance—and most don’t even realize they’re doing it. Lewis identifies the most common errors and reveals the hidden, unintended, or negative messages embedded in traditional rule-making that trigger resistance rather than cooperation.​

📖 The International Bestseller: RULES (4th Edition, 2024)

Lewis discusses what revisions in the latest edition of RULES: Powerful Policy Wording to Maximize Engagement reflect evolving workplace dynamics and the changing relationship between employers and employees. With competition for corporate talent fiercer than ever, organizations can’t afford to ignore the damage caused by negative language and a disrespectful tone of voice.​

🌍 Respectful Language Across Cultures

Lewis explores whether what constitutes “respectful language” is influenced by differences in geography or industry—comparing Canadian government agencies, UK organizations, and the International Committee of the Red Cross. His Perfect Policies™ approach has been adopted around the world, demonstrating universal principles while adapting to local contexts.

🤖 AI and the Future of Policy Drafting

Lewis addresses how AI tools like ChatGPT are affecting policy drafting and whether they can be trained to write in the Perfect Policies™ style. This emerging technology presents both opportunities and challenges for maintaining respectful, effective policy language.​

🎤 Tailoring the Message

As a speaker who has presented at conferences ranging from NAGARA to FWD50, Lewis explains how he tailors his “Setting Standards for Excellence” keynote for different professional audiences.​​​

📚 Resources & Contact:

* RULES: Powerful Policy Wording to Maximize Engagement (4th edition, 2024); Available on Amazon

* Website: lewiseisen.com

* LinkedIn

* YouTube Channel: Lewis S Eisen Perfect Policies​

* TEC Canada Speaker Profile

About the Guest

Rob Fisher—founder of Fisher Improvement Technologies and a pioneer with over 30 years of experience deploying Human and Organizational Performance (HOP) across 40 countries. He has conducted over 100 successful HOP integration strategies across heavy industry. Also, the author of Understanding Mental Models, a speaker, and a mentor.

Rob Fisher’s Philosophy

Error is normal—but it's not a mantra, it's a principle. If you're not giving workers tools to recognize and respond to vulnerability, you're not doing HOP.

Episode Highlights

🔧 From Theory to Tools

Fisher challenges organizations that treat HOP as a rebranded safety slogan, explaining that real HOP implementation means embedding error-reduction tools into how jobs are planned, how procedures are written, and how incidents are analyzed.

He also explains how to integrate HOP with existing Safety Management Systems (SMS) by shifting focus from blaming individuals to understanding and improving the systems they work within.

👔 Leadership Is the Missing Link

Most leaders haven’t been taught how to engage in ways that actually prevent errors.​You will find out three things leaders must actively develop to create the inputs producing safety outcomes.

⚙️ Task-Based Systems Beat Campaigns

Rather than treating safety as a side project or campaign, Fisher provides task-based systems that examine how fatigue, distraction, procedures, personal stress, and environment shape daily decisions. His AERO system helps individuals become aware of and better manage their personal tendencies, enabling more effective workplace interactions.

📊 Performance Modes and Mental Models

How small adaptations accumulate into systemic risk? You will understand performance modes, mental models, error traps and triggers, and the impact of managing controls on error reduction.

🔍 Real Learning Changes Systems

Fisher challenges the common practice of distributing incident summaries and calling them "learnings," arguing that real learning is active, applied, and shifts how people work. Learning must prevent the next incident, not just review the last one.

📚 Contact & Resources:

* LinkedIn: Rob Fisher​

* Book: Understanding Mental Models

* Website: www.improvewithfit.com​

* HOP Services: Human and Organizational Performance​

* Insights & Articles: FIT Insights

⚠️ Content Warning

This episode contains discussions of suicide and mental health crises. If you or someone you know is struggling with suicidal thoughts, please reach out for help:

* National Suicide Prevention Lifeline (U.S.): Call or text 988 (available 24/7)

* Crisis Text Line: Text HOME to 741741

* International Association for Suicide Prevention: www.iasp.info/resources/Crisis_Centres

You are not alone. Help is available.

About the Guest

Dr. Vince Hafeli is the President of Ajax Paving Industries and a mental health advocate. 🎤 His TEDx talk "A Discussion on Mental Health and Suicide in the Construction Industry" has received millions of views worldwide and earned the #5 highest spot for number of views. He authored the book Mental Health and Suicide, which shares his story alongside 12 other extremely personal stories of loss, along with practical advice for industry leaders. 🏃 Vince is an 11-time Ironman (140.6) and 4-time 70.3 triathlon finisher—a testament to how endurance sports and physical fitness have contributed to his own mental health journey.​

Vince’s Philosophy

It should be OK to say that I am not OK in the workplace.

Episode Highlights

Mental health isn’t separate from safety—it is safety, and when organizations ignore mental health challenges, they’re ignoring a critical risk factor that affects everything else they’re trying to manage.

📚 An Unexpected Journey From Field Technician to President

Dr. Hafeli traces his path from entry-level laboratory and field engineering technician in 1985 through quality control management, asphalt plants and materials general manager, to ultimately becoming President of Ajax Paving in 2019.

🔬 Doctoral Research: Revealing the Hidden Crisis

Dr. Hafeli shares key findings from his dissertation research on mental health and suicide in the construction industry, revealing why depression is one of the top three workplace problems in construction and what makes this industry particularly vulnerable to mental health challenges.

💔 Breaking 17 Years of Silence

After keeping his suicide attempt hidden for nearly two decades, Dr. Hafeli discusses what finally gave him the courage to speak publicly about his experience. Growing up and throughout his career, he faced numerous personal challenges including the loss of his father, brother, two children, and mother within a few years, along with the immense pressure of climbing the professional ladder in a demanding industry that valued strength and stoicism.

🚨 Misconceptions About Suicide

In his keynote "Why Suicide Occurs: The Misconceptions We Need to Address," Dr. Hafeli tackles the most common misconceptions about suicide that prevent people from getting help and organizations from responding effectively.

🛡️ Building a Mentally Healthy Workplace

You will find practical guidance on what signs managers and coworkers should look for when someone might be struggling, and how to help employers overcome the fear that employees have about seeking help—concerns about losing jobs, missing promotions, or being judged by coworkers.

📚 Contact & Resources:

* Personal website: vincehafeli.com​

* Book: Mental Health and Suicide​​

* TEDx Talk: A Discussion on Mental Health and Suicide in the Construction Industry

* Ajax Paving Industries of Florida: www.ajaxpavingfl.com

🆘 Suicide in Construction Awareness:

* American Road & Transportation Builders Association (ARTBA) Suicide Awareness: www.artba.org/suicide-awareness​