Grimson explains how she taught herself to rebuild her wealth AND how to build a podcast starting at any point in your life. “I’m living proof of that story…I lost everything. No home, no job, no car, no money, no place to live, and two children to raise. That happened to me twice…and the second time I was 41 years old.”

Her A-Ha Moment:

“I realized that if I wanted security and to build wealth, it wasn’t just going to be through one thing,” Grimson explained. “I was going to have to create little pockets, which I call ’empires’. And once I got started I was able to create $1.4 million in income producing assets in four years.”

Moving Past the Shame

“The podcast came about because people kept asking me about how I’d done that; of course I’d kept my story a secret because I was so ashamed of it, like a lot of people who share my story. I wanted to share what I had done, but more importantly, sharing those tools and real steps for anybody to take, whether it’s their mindset or literally taking steps to build wealth.”

Lessons Learned:

“I think the first lesson is you don’t abandon yourself, which is such a powerful thing. Think about it: I treat my friends and family better than I treat myself. I don’t say things to other people that I say inside my head. And I think that’s true all around. So finding a way, whether you believe it or not, whether you think you deserve it or not, of believing in yourself. … I just had to put blinders on and move forward … It’s not actually rocket science. It might be hard. But it’s not difficult to understand.”

After Grimson explained her three lessons of coming from nothing to financial resolution — assess, ask, act — she went on to explain how learning to be a podcaster — or learning ANYTHING — is to dive in.

“You’re going to jump in a pool with a bunch of people that are Olympic swimmers. And you’re going to be in there with your floaties on just trying to keep your head above water, but there’re two things that are going to happen:  Number one, you cannot be in that environment and not learn. And number two, the experts are not going to let you drown. That’s true about wealthy. That’s true about everybody here at Podcast Movement. People who are successful, 99.9% of the time want to help.”

On Creating and Marketing a Podcast?

Grimson did not have a media background: “I didn’t even know how to plug in the microphone. I still struggle with that portion of it. But I’ve never really worried about that because there are those Olympic swimmers you can call. I’m never going to be the best at that. What I have to offer is my experience. So that’s what I wanted to focus on. What I learned was that despite the fact that there’s a million podcasts very few of them are actually successful and that they take work. They’re not easy. You have to commit and be really thoughtful about who you’re talking to.”

That is about the best lesson one can learn when diving in to podcasting.

Does her story have a happy ending? You bet. Right down to her pro-hockey husband, Stu. But it’s all because Grimson, who is fiercely independent, candid, and determined, keeps on swimming. Take a listen. We’ll surface all kinds of tips and inspiration. And like she says, please leave a review for Insider Interviews!

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Lantigua-Williams:  I am the founder of Lantigua-Williams & Co. We’re an independent podcast and film studio, and we adopted the slogan erasing the margins earlier this year, after three years of thinking about what it is that we want to do in the world. And that seemed to fit. We try to tell stories that make it really complicated to put things and people in boxes.

Washington: My name is Glynn Washington. I am the host of Snap Judgment and Snap Judgement Studios. We created the shows Spooked, Heaven’s Gate and Snap Judgement.

Wilson: I’m Steve Wilson. I’m chief strategy officer at QCode Media. We specialize in making original scripted fiction podcasts. We’re really trying to tell new stories, with amazing creators and see them become the next wave of content that we all love in the world.

Desai: I’m Shaleen Desai the senior vice president of Animation at Warner Brothers Animation. I also oversee our company’s scripted podcasts initiative for Warner Media.

Transcript:

Moss: Steve, you spent 15 years at Apple, you’re a font of knowledge. I think that you’re probably putting that to good use at QCode, which is a relatively newer to the industry. So, I wanted to start with you so that you’d give us some building blocks. What inspired you to join QCode and skip retiring with the ‘gold Apple watch’?

Wilson: Well, I certainly did enjoy my time at Apple, working with partners in the content space. I did editorial and partner relations and marketing for apple podcasts for some time. In working with partners, always envisioned myself, going to the publisher side, having the opportunity to, not just be on the platform side, but really work with original stories and amazing partners. Got to work with everyone in the podcast industry, some incredible people, including the panelists here. And, as I looked across the industry, I was fascinated by what QCode was doing.

The company that started about two years ago by a former agent named Rob Herting. And Rob had seen time and again how Hollywood can be risk-averse, and it can be challenging, to start new stories. QCode was founded to try to build new properties and audio experiences for people that the world had never heard before.

And something I’d point out at the top is it’s interesting in all the media that we consume how, fiction plays a really big role — except for in podcasts; fiction tends to be a smaller portion of podcast consumption, and we really see there’s there being a huge opportunity to expand in that area. So, I just had to jump at the chance to join QCode.

Moss: So it’s safe to say that you are bullish on narrative audio. When you and the team are deciding on that content do you do it with an eye to the long tail? How well will it get monetized and will it, you know, play in Peoria and across other platforms?

Wilson: Well, it’s a consideration. We want to tell amazing original stories that there are audiences for that can be really niche and specific content and different verticals. We are building content that’s all different genres — sci-fi through even female erotica, like our show with Demi Moore called Dirty Diana. We think broadly about the different interest areas consumers have. And then when it comes to things like derivatives and TV and film, that’s a consideration though we are primarily focused to ensure that the podcasts that we make is going to work on its own. And we turned down projects that won’t work as a podcast. So we do think about the holistic view of the stories and the content that’s being told though.

Moss: So, it’s not just QCode developing and finding the product, but it’s also those coming to you and you’re looking at it all through that lens of first will it play as a podcast?

Wilson: A hundred percent. Some of them come in as original podcast ideas. Others came from different forms of media to begin with. So, the Left Right Game, for example, was a viral Reddit thread that we developed as a podcast, and it’s now in development, with Amazon. And, we have other projects as well, like Dirty Diana came in as a book. So sometimes the idea for the podcast actually originates in another media type and becomes a podcast and then can go be that other media type as well.

Moss: I want to do something that’s common in marketing podcasts: a little cross-promotion. I want to give props to AdLandia.  It’s a great B2B podcast about the industry, (unless you think insider interviews is even better!) You were just on that episode last month and it was packed with great information — and the hosts quoted Malcolm Gladwell, who said, ‘we think with our eyes and feel with our ears.’ Is that also how QCode approaches projects?

Wilson: Yeah, I think so. Of course, Malcolm Gladwell’s is a brilliant person to quote and put things so eloquently. You know, we definitely take a lot of pride in how we put our projects together. So Q code, um, you know, really one of our pillars is rich sound design. We invest heavily in that area. We have a head of music. Is incredible, you know, classically trained pianist, a guy named Darren Johnson. He was touring with Paula Abdul and discovered by Miles Davis. Has done all kinds of work in TV and film, and he’s the one who scores, uh, our podcasts. We also partnered with Adobe on Atmos and Dolby Atmos isn’t even really supported across the industry yet on the distribution side We’ve pre produced all of our contents to really have that immersive sound because we believe that sort of elevates and takes the stories to the next level.

And we’re seeing an increase in that side too, just in the way that TV and film progressed from, you know, television sets and, you know, CTRs up through, you know, 4k HDR. We’re seeing that same increase in audio quality. And we, we make that a core part of the projects we make.

Moss: Excellent. Thank you for being our first mini episodes.

Our second mini episode is Juleyka Lantigua-Williams, and she is someone who has a long tenure in audio coming from NPR. Juleyka, your podcast network is maybe four years old. You just hit a million downloads for Latina to Latina, and you just won one of the first ever Ambies, which is a new award in the podcast industry, with MacMillan Podcasts, for Driving the Green Book. Did you set out to build multi-genre content from the get-go with Lantigua Williams?

Lantigua-Williams: Oh, absolutely. One of the foundational tasks that I set for myself when I was employee one was to only pursue ideas that could be iterated in five different genres. I now have a treasure trove of probably 40 IPs for the first decade of the company that I intend to develop across.

So, yes, I have always been very clear, and I tell people all the time, this is not an audience game. This is an IP game. And when I mentor people and I get to have real conversations about their intent coming into podcasts, I really have to emphasize to them how it is: You live with that by the worth of your ideas not the size of your audience or your downloads. And so for me, it is imperative that we are always thinking in a multi-genre kind of landscape for our original shows. And a lot of our decks to clients for proposals when we’re going out for contracts include derivatives, like, ‘and we could do this at your conference every year. We could do a podcast booth and we could do a video series. And then on year three we can introduce a documentary…’, there’s always that additive at the end so that people can envision what the outgrowth can be from a podcast.

We also produce podcasts for Marvel about geekdom and comic books so the DNA of what we do is based on the notion that there are so many interesting stories that we’re just not getting to hear. How can we shape them through the lens of our experience and our training and journalism? (It has to pass the journalism test.  We fact check everything. We make sure that people understand that there are ethical lines that cannot be crossed.)

And so, I think that that brings a certain level of rigor to the storytelling. And so far, we’ve only had a very small foray into fiction.  But even that was scrutinized, and so it’s more about the veracity of what we’re saying. And what we discovered, very gleefully, is that when we send things out into the world, the things that we send them out into the world bring back friends, not just the audience. Like, they bring back friends to write checks who want us to make other things with them, they bring back friends who want to invite us to conferences and things like that!

Moss: What’s the best way for a podcaster to present their show for other adaptations?

Lantigua-Williams: Piloting is really, really important for podcasting,

I’ve really have become unequivocal about this; pitch decks are two dimensional and pitch decks rely, unfortunately, on other people’s imagination. You have to pilot the thing, even if just two or three or five minutes, ultimately you have to find the resources and the time, because no one is going to be able in their mind by themselves sitting in front of a laptop.

Moss: Shaleen, you are like our all-star all around. You have more than 20 years in leading scripted unscripted, animation development, TV, film, podcast projects, and you come from an amazing library at Warner Brothers. How do you prioritize what IP you’re going to iterate, especially for podcasts?

Desai: We are lucky in that we have this deep bench of IP, and whether that’s DC or it’s our original kind of films. And that goes back a hundred years. So, it’s, we do have this vast library.

And what we try to look for is where we can service IP for the fans. So, I’ll use Batman as an example: Batman lives in so many different worlds in genres and all that from kids to four-quadrant family to adult, from comic books to television, to films. And so in podcasts, we figured a character like Batman would be a great place to just tell an interesting, different, unique story, and take that kind of really known character and maybe do something that we haven’t quite done on a different format.

So it’s a case by case basis, but we really try to look at it on a bigger more global scale of like, what’s a story, what’s a character that kind of known, but we’re doing something a little different or that we haven’t explored yet.

Moss: Batman is beloved IP. There have been many versions of it. There are a lot of fans out there already doing their own podcasts around it. So how are you going to differentiate your podcast?

Desai: Just to be clear, we’re doing a proper new, original scripted podcast. So it’s not a fan thing or a talking about the IP; it’s actually telling a new and different story, but just doing it in the audio format.

And it first has to stand alone as a different cool, interesting, fun story on its own that the fans will love. And then if it happens to go to television or film, that’s great. That’s icing on the cake, but really it’s to tell this story in a different format, do it for audio.

Moss:  What kind of team members have to create a whole new story from this IP?

Desai: Well, we’re lucky in that ad Warner Brothers, you know, we work with so many great, talented filmmakers, television writers, that we have a lot of people that we already are in business with. So we, we do have access to just amazing storytellers and it’s really been getting the word out internally and with our partners that, Hey, we are really interested in exploring scripted podcasting for the company and if there are stories you’ve been wanting to tell, maybe this is a new place to tell those stories.

We’re hoping this will be out by the end of the year but it’s still a little bit TBD.

Moss: What have been your personal biggest learnings about audio given your strong background in video, film, et cetera.

Desai: I come from television, but I’ve always been on the production and the creation side, working with creators, working with writers and all of that. And there are just a lot of things that work in television or film in a visual medium that don’t work for audio. So, it might seem simple to say that, ‘oh, it works for television’, but it’s ‘how many characters do you have in a scene? How would action play out?’ There are certain things that we weren’t used to looking at in reviewing material and reading scripts that we’ve really had to put blinders on and really focus on what is the audio only not the visual element.

So it’s focusing and shifting away from a visual medium into it to hearing how it would sound and then working with sound design and interesting new sound editing and different programs that are coming.

Moss: Glynn Washington, none of the things we’re talking about here would be possible without talent. And I think that you epitomize that – also as an all around. You were humble enough to not mention that you’re one of only three people on the planet to have hit Number One on the iTunes podcast list for three separate programs. so Snap Judgment, Spooked, and Heaven’s Gate – and that of course turned into an HBO docu-series. So what’s more challenging for you, video or audio. How do you think about all of the aspects that go into creating and performing in each medium?

Washington: At this point 10 years into it, I’m all in on the audio side. But I will say my  partner, Mark Ristich and I started making short films with a kind of very similar learning curve to what Shaleen was talking about: You can’t have as many characters, you can’t have as much stuff going on. You have to really focus and oftentimes audio really benefits from a single strong lead in a much different way than a film where you can take a more omniscient view than you can oftentimes an audio. We love both. I want a lot of our stuff to be cross-platform, but first and foremost, it’s got to work for us as an audio story.

Moss: What are some of the other through lines of creating a successful podcast?

Washington: Juleyka basically mentioned the idea that whomever you’re pitching stuff to assume they don’t have the imagination to understand it in its various iterations? And you really have to show everyone everything. Everything has to be very, very explicit.

I’ll just give you an example. When we first started Snap Judgment, I used to do the music a lot of time for various stories. I would score things myself. I love scoring stories, but when the pros came in, when they did it, and then I would try to go in there and would be messing with the levels and breaking stuff and learned you got to let the guys who know do their thing.

I wasn’t even able to properly speak their language — of a real musician. It’s hard to realize you’re not even speaking the language of a different platform; you have to accept that.So, go back. Do the work. Figure out how musicians speak differently than poets speak differently than fiction makers speak differently than filmmakers. And, they all speak of differently than studio execs. So you’ve got to understand the language of whoever you’re at you’re talking to.

I mean, you want to maintain your vision. You want to steer your vision. Delegations all well and good, but the energy, the creativity, the fire behind any project is oftentimes bound up in the creators and you never want to lose that.

Moss: Heaven’s Gate. How did that find its way to HBO Max? Were you pitched it, or did you pitch with Pineapple Street to help move things forward?

Washington: Pineapple Street had the idea. It was really flattering and kind of scary at the same time: they came to me, and they said, ‘look, we want to do this cult story, and we thought that you would be a good host for it. If you don’t want to do it, we won’t do the project. But if you want to, we think it’s multi-platform.  So, do you have the energy to do this?’ Again, they were right, I did grow up in a cult telling a story that allowed me to revisit kind of my own background in a different way it was very appealing to me. And so, when you start to talk about speaking different languages, they spoke mine when they came to me with the project…

Moss: You heard Glynn talk about growing up in a cult. This is another reason why you should go and read his full bio. Fascinating. Now, we’re all trying to market our content as best as possible. I know touring had been a big thing for you and you were aiming to tour internationally again pre-pandemic. Any advice on growing your listening audience these days?

Washington: Yeah, if you’re on the podcast side, there’s a lot going on. There’s a lot of energy, a lot of things going on. There are a lot of podcasts out there. We are producing 90 new episodes of content this year. So, when people say, how do I break in the podcasting?

I say the way that you break in and the way that you actually get good is get good people, get good writing, get good acting. To get good what you do is you make something that is an homage to something else.  If you have figured out the top 10 podcasts in your genre and say, ‘I’m going to make something for them’ and you go to them. If someone came to me in the middle of the summer, when I want to go on break and they say, ‘I have a story that I think will work for Snap’ and I listened to it, and it does?  I’m going to kiss you and name all my grandchildren after you!  Now, if it doesn’t work, that’s cool too. But you’ve done the thing that you like. Everyone has initially in podcasting tried to make something that sounds like Ira Glass; you should probably do that. And then you go and start doing your own thing. Right now, podcasts are not yet like these crazy elites that you can’t get contact with. You can talk to just about everyone; we’re still like a band of crazy rebels that are fighting against the barricades. And it might not be like that forever. So, I think new people in this place, in this space, should take advantage of the fact that you can still talk to everybody.

Moss: Lightning round questions. Next big category?

Wilson: I’m all in on kids. I think there’s a huge opportunity for kids and families to listen

Desai: I still feel like true crime isn’t going anywhere; it keeps working and working and working.

Washington: I think that supernatural storytelling isn’t going anywhere either. And I also think the story behind music in any way, shape or form you want to do it. I think that song Exploder, living on podcasting and TV and touring the perfect nexus of what we’re talking about.

Lantigua-Williams: I was going to say song Explorer too! But the second one is Two Dope Queens. I mean, come on!

Moss: Shaleen, your favorite cross-platform show or product – Batman not included.

Desai: I still loved Homecoming. That was one of the early ones. I still think it’s one of the best ones done and the fact that it has jumped platforms.

Wilson: Well, I’m going to pick Batman, then — one of my favorites. I’m so excited about your upcoming podcast, Shaleen!

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I’d had the chance to experience Wiley’s thoughts last year when she contributed to The Continuum, a publication about brand + demand marketing, which I’m privileged to edit. In that article she explained how to look at the KPIs of influencer marketing a little bit differently, and the varied ways to determine impact and engagement. We touched on that in this conversation, but a 30-minute conversation gives you a chance to understand much more — not just about this food writer turned marketer, but things like how cause-marketing is another essential ingredient in influencing consumers. And these days, Sway has evolved to embrace that (and she shared case study examples) as well as digital advertising, both programmatic and paid social, and built what was a natural extension: a content studio.

One of my favorite discoveries about Wiley (aside from learning about our common roots working at Food Network in the early days!) was that she was a baker and a cheesemonger at one point. I believe that takes the cake for eclectic pasts among my podcast guests. Her culinary chops have served her well, though, as she can name several brands in or around the category as clients, including Igloo, Coleman, and Domino’s.

If that didn’t get you hungry to hear more, here’s what else we discussed:

In its infancy influencers were treated more like journalists. Brands were just sending them product and expecting that they would get reviews out of it. That worked …for a short period of time. …Then they realized ‘if we’re just sending them a box of Mac & Cheese, we can’t have control over messaging…’. And we started paying them.

The big thing to remember is that as you increase in following the engagement rate goes down dramatically.

We took a deeper dive into pro-social initiatives and examples, and the confluence of content channels. (Of course I mentioned the conference I’m producing about the intersection of television and podcasting for example!) And that led to a chat about why Wiley’s family gets a little annoyed about her heavy podcast consumption habit!

Find Danielle Wiley at:

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The Macmillan division of morphed out of a prescient move to team up with Grammar Girl podcast phenom Mignon Fogarty – and quickly evolved into the Quick and Dirty Tips Network of short form helpful content. (Perhaps it’s fitting that Doyle’s career was launched with a speech.) Now, with the addition of a narrative network, their podcasts garner millions of monthly listens – and recently also scored an inaugural Ambie Award for their stunning show, Driving The Green Book.

Macmillan is the only one of the “big five” publishers with its own podcast network. As Doyle says, “It’s been our vision to serve our authors the best way possible. And audio emerging the way that it did certainly created an opportunity for us to use podcasting as best advantage whether that’s through an audio book excerpt or interviews or guest series…” In a media world where everyone is aiming to flow content cross platform it’s a surprising exclusive advantage. (As a matter of fact, we discuss the conference I’m producing for NATPE about the proliferation of TV brands leveraging podcasting, as well. Please register free to attend ContentCast on July 14th!)

While she provided many serious business takeaways, we also learned how one phone call, and frequent dog walking, helped lead to Doyle’s career success, and of the drama of “dial-up days” during early-stage internet jobs.

And you won’t believe what’s got Doyle’s gobsmacked about podcasting these days (yes, I checked the spelling, Grammar Girl fans out there): the evolution of the host read ad. I know, I wasn’t expecting that answer either. But you’ll appreciate how she illustrates the issue with an example from a men’s underwear advertiser.

In all seriousness, host read ads are a major topic in the business of podcasting as we balance the goal for perceived alignment with an influential personality with personalization enabled by companies like A Million Ads or Frequency. (Note: I’ll discuss the power of influencers in the upcoming Epi 32 with Danielle Wiley of Sway.)

For Doyle, the learning was about balance: how to deliver a strong response while preserving the integrity of hosts and authors. But another balancing act is tied to revenue and the competition for ears and ad dollars.

Another business consideration is discoverability. That’s where Doyle and team did a wide scale collaboration with Apple for the notable Driving the Green Book. Hear how they did, in fact, leverage cross-platform promotion in innovative ways – from reading lists to playlists. (Note: Hear show producer Juleyka Lantigua Williams on this from Episode 12 of Insider Interviews.)

“I think it keeps a lot of us in this industry up at night. We talk about revenue diversification a lot. In fact, I just did a panel for Digital Hollywood on revenue diversification. …You can’t just rely on the ad model anymore. You have to find new ways — like exploiting a podcast into a book or a film and TV. I think it’s going to be fascinating to see how podcasters leverage new tools that are available now through Spotify and apple, which have been available through Stitcher and Luminary, to be strategic about your content and then finding ways to expand and enhance that through a premium subscription. I think three or four years ago, I would’ve said absolutely not, but now I think there’s probably opportunity for that.”

“As people expand their listening and really become hooked on some shows that have that have a big ad load then spending a few bucks for a premium subscription to eliminate that might be very attractive.”

(This was where I noted that you can support THIS podcast and just “buy me a coffee”. Just sayin’ …. )

But don’t worry; there was more: Doyle also prognosticated on the future of consolidation in podcasting…and shared some of her favorite shows these days. So, make like that early bird, and catch all of Doyle’s words. You’ll be ahead of the curve.

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You’ll understand in just a few minutes how it all comes together for the show I’m producing for trade association, NATPE — their first-ever conference on the intersection of TV and Podcasting! (I’m very proud of this project and working hard to create a chock-full of takeaways agenda for content creators, marketers and producers across both screens.)

Ken also got a little bit of my life story — at least my career path, as well as a story about the good-news/bad-news of tech, when I recently confused a “Zoom friend” with an “IRL” friend!

Here are some links to topics discussed:

NATPE’s July 14th “ContentCast” Conference 

David Berkowitz’s Serial Marketers (Start with the newsletter. You’ll thank me.)

Erica Keswin on Rituals (Of course I’m going to point you to my podcast episode with her!)

Susan McPherson’s book, The Lost Art of Connecting

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When buyers have a hard time translating tools, metrics, and services between advertising channels we get friction, and friction prohibits more buyers from choosing podcast advertising as a viable channel. But that friction can be soothed with education.

There’s a lot more. These are smart guys. You’ll want to listen. Again. And maybe again.

You can find Bryan on Twitter and https://soundsprofitable.com/

And Ryan and JoneKiri are on LinkedIn

If you found THESE tips valuable from Bryan and Ryan, I don’t mind if you virtually tip ME, and “buy me a coffee“! ( https://www.buymeacoffee.com/mossappeal ).

Please let me know if you have a topic or suggestion for a future episode on the business of media, marketing and advertising — or need help creating or marketing your own B2B podcast! *Stay tuned for big news — or ping me — about an upcoming conference I’m coordinating on the intersection of podcasting and all OTHER content screens!  [email protected]

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PS: This episode publishes on #EarthDay2021, so please also check out Epi 28 for all the good that Sustainable Brands has been doing since 2006.

“Twenty years ago it was not recognized that companies that understood how to innovate for environmental and social benefit were going to be the companies that survived and thrived in the 21st century.”

SB Brand Transformation RoadmapSM.

Sustainable Brands global conferences 

P&G Planet KIND brand

Clorox Company social responsibility

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“Now I have a certificate that says I’m woman-owned or I’m gay owned and all of a sudden, it’s a new day. It gave us an opportunity to register our company in these portals that help diverse suppliers get found [by Fortune 1000 companies.]”

“The benchmarks of success around purpose “must be front and center on brand websites: ‘We see you. We appreciate you. We embrace you. We stand for gender parity, transgender, equality’…all of it. Like, now’s not the time to be living in Alabama.”

“I think it’s like ripping the band-aid off. You have to start somewhere. But this is a long game. This is about doing the right thing now for the long haul. Invest in diversity, equity and inclusion training programs. Invest in what matters to the broader audience. Talk to people in their voice, and be consistent and authentic about it. It’s not about how much you do, it’s that you do it, do it well, and do it consistently.”

Her first-to-market service as a DTC bra retailer hit some, ah, curves, along the journey but Zak has been named everything from Goldman Sachs’ 100 Most Intriguing Entrepreneurs to a Fortune “40 Under 40”, and more.

Part of the accolades stem from how Zak has embraced not just brand marketing but brand purpose. Inclusivity at ThirdLove means being the only brand to offer more than 80 bra sizes, including their unique half cup sizing – and donating over $40 million worth of products to women in need. It has also helped evolve an old school industry previously defined by a narrow concept of beauty with a focus on inclusivity.

“We didn’t want to look like any other bra brand which mostly photographed skinny, generally white women with small boobs and generally did it in a really sexy way. So, we set out to build something radically different from scratch…. Back then there were barely any plus size models.”

Further iterating on inclusivity, ThirdLove launched a new initiative during COVID-challenged 2020: The TL Effect, to support entrepreneurial women of color.

“…Brand purpose has to be authentic, true to who you are and what you stand for, and what you’re building. Otherwise it can fall flat, or a consumer sees through it.”

“In 2012, if you look at what had existed [for bra shopping] at that time, there were department stores, Victoria’s Secret and some big box stores. There certainly weren’t online bra brands at the time. And that was the idea: better brand, better product, better online shopping experience for women.”

“We were trying to figure out how ThirdLove was going to help support and impact change in the broader community. The TL Effect helps give female founders of color a little more of a voice in a crowded marketplace. We launched in June and picked our first recipient, Arra Simms, founder of Kewtie Nails.”