For decades, agency owners have been told that growth requires hiring more people, adding more technology, and building larger teams. But what if the opposite is true?

In this episode of Insurance Banter with Burand & Borup, Chris Burand and Paul Borup are joined by agency management experts Mary Belka and Cheryl Koch of Agency Management Resource Group. With more than 30 years of consulting experience, they've helped independent insurance agencies dramatically improve profitability, productivity, and operational performance.

The conversation explores why many agencies suffer from business model problems rather than staffing problems, why leadership discipline matters more than technology, and why the best-performing agencies often have fewer people doing more meaningful work.

You'll also hear why AI is a powerful tool but not a replacement for knowledge, experience, and sound agency management.

Whether you're an agency owner, producer, operations manager, or account manager, this episode offers practical insights that can improve your agency's efficiency, profitability, and long-term value.

In this episode:

•  Why some insurance agencies can actually become "too profitable" for buyers 
•  The surprising truth about staffing shortages in independent agencies 
•  Why business model problems are often mistaken for personnel problems 
•  How leadership discipline drives agency profitability 
•  The difference between education and training in developing great account managers 
•  Why technology alone hasn't improved agency productivity 
•  The proper role of producers versus account managers 
•  Performance-based compensation and accountability 
•  Why specialization creates stronger agencies 
•  The opportunities and limitations of AI in insurance 

About Our Guests

Mary Belka and Cheryl Koch are nationally recognized consultants specializing in independent agency management, operational efficiency, organizational design, education, and Errors & Omissions risk management. Through Agency Management Resource Group, they have spent more than three decades helping agencies increase productivity, improve profitability, and build sustainable operating models.

Connect with Our Guests

Agency Management Resource Group

Email: [email protected]

Call: Mary (503) 866-5704

In this episode of Insurance Banter, we sit down with Kevin Donoghue, Founder of Mystic Capital Advisors, to unpack what’s really happening in the insurance agency M&A market.

From collapsing public broker multiples to AI-driven staffing cuts, Kevin shares insider insight into how agency valuations are changing and what sellers need to know before entering the market.

We also dive into:

•  Why private equity-backed buyers are still aggressively acquiring agencies 
•  The surprising number of buyers most agency owners never hear about 
•  How brokers can increase agency sale valuations dramatically 
•  The hidden conflicts of interest many sellers overlook 
•  Why due diligence should go BOTH ways 
•  The risks of excessive leverage in agency roll-ups 
•  How top producers and employment agreements impact agency value 
•  What sellers should understand about earnouts and equity structures 

If you own an insurance agency, are considering a future sale, or simply want a clearer understanding of where the market is heading, this conversation is packed with practical insight.

Key Takeaways

•  Public broker EBITDA multiples have compressed significantly 
•  AI concerns are reshaping investor expectations 
•  Private equity still has substantial capital to deploy 
•  Sellers should focus on both valuation and buyer fit 
•  Specialized M&A advisors can materially improve outcomes 
•  Buyer financial strength matters more than ever 

Guest Information

Kevin Donoghue
Founder, Mystic Capital Advisors

Email: [email protected]

Phone:  617-901-8747 

Episode Summary:
Chris and Paul are joined by Jerry Messick of Unity Captive to explore the realities of captive insurance—beyond the polished sales pitches. They break down when captives are a powerful tool for risk management and profitability—and when they can lead to serious financial and regulatory trouble.

Captive insurance is often sold as a silver bullet—but is it a smart risk strategy or a ticking time bomb? In this episode, we cut through the hype and unpack what actually makes captives work… and what causes them to fail.

From IRS scrutiny to due diligence mistakes, this conversation highlights the difference between using captives strategically versus chasing tax-driven schemes. If you’ve ever considered a captive (or advise clients who have), this episode offers a grounded, experience-driven perspective you won’t hear in most presentations.

Key Takeaways:

•  Captives work best as a risk management strategy—not a tax play
•  Why loss ratios and risk profiles determine captive success 
•  The importance of due diligence (on both the model AND the people selling it)
•  Common reasons captives fail—including IRS challenges and poor structuring
•  How owning your own risk changes behavior and improves outcomes 
•  Why more than 50% of commercial premiums are shifting to alternative markets
•  The growing role of group captives and long-term client retention strategies

Chapters / Timestamps:

•  (00:00) Introduction & guest background: Jerry Messick 
•  (01:00) What Unity Captive does & industry experience 
•  (02:30) The reality of captives: when they work vs. when they don’t 
•  (04:20) Why many captives fail (and IRS concerns) 
•  (05:00) Due diligence: questions you must ask before joining a captive 
•  (06:50) Captives as true risk ownership—not risk transfer 
•  (08:00) Improving loss control & operational behavior 
•  (10:15) Industry trends: growth of alternative risk markets 
•  (11:40) Group captives and long-term strategy 
•  (13:00) The future of the insurance industry & attracting new talent 
•  (16:00) Why insurance careers are more dynamic than you think 
•  (17:20) Final thoughts: integrity and client-first mindset 

Contact:

•  🌐 Unity Captive: https://unitycaptive.com
   📞 Phone: 405-550-2651 

In this episode of Insurance Banter, Chris and Paul sit down with Greg Burton, former CEO of BrickStreet Insurance, to unpack one of the most remarkable turnaround stories in the insurance industry.

Greg shares how he stepped into a failing workers’ compensation system in West Virginia—losing $1 million per day with billions in unfunded liabilities—and helped lead its transformation into a successful private insurance company. 

Key Topics Covered:

• The Breaking Point: What a collapsing state-run system looks like from the inside 
• Leadership in Crisis: How to step into chaos and create clarity 
• Cultural Transformation: Shifting mindset from “claimant-first” to “customer-first” 
• Privatization Decision: Why moving from government to private market was essential 
• Building From Scratch: Launching a fully operational insurance company in just 9 months 
• People Over Process: Empowering existing employees and bringing in the right talent 
• Lasting Impact: How reforms reduced workers’ comp rates by over 80% and reshaped a state’s economy 

The insurance industry markets expertise, but in many states the legal standard of care says something else: agents often aren’t required to advise clients what to buy, and the insured is expected to read and understand the policy anyway. That’s not professionalism. That’s outsourcing risk to the least-informed party in the transaction.

Chris and Paul go straight at the contradiction: we mandate CE while tolerating an order-taker standard that protects mediocrity and punishes agents who do the job correctly. They draw a hard line between “real education” and cheap CE mills, explain how the system incentivizes underinsurance, and break down why the fear of higher standards driving more E&O claims doesn’t hold up in practice. This episode challenges the industry’s favorite fiction: that the current model is defensible because “that’s how it’s always been.”

In today’s episode, Chris sits down with Jon Persky (Optimum Performance Solutions) to unpack what’s actually happening in the insurance agency M&A market—and what agency owners keep getting wrong when buyers come knocking.

You’ll also hear a blunt breakdown of the biggest risk in today’s deals: taking part of the purchase price in buyer stock—especially when it’s not liquid, not publicly traded, and can come with restrictions most sellers don’t fully understand.

You can reach Jon through his website at https://www.optperform.com/

In this episode of Insurance Banter, Paula and Chris welcome back Mark Robinson for a practical conversation on how agents and brokers should respond to Department of Insurance (DOI) consumer complaints—and why these letters should be taken seriously, even when the complaint feels minor or “garden variety.” 

What You’ll Learn

• What a Department of Insurance complaint actually is (and what it’s not)
• Why agents shouldn’t panic, but must respond seriously and quickly
• How DOI complaint responses can expose broader issues like licensing or premium handling
• The biggest mistakes agencies make when responding to regulators
• How fees and disclosure failures can become major complaint triggers
• When you should involve an attorney—and when you may not need one
• Practical steps to reduce complaints before they ever get filed

If you'd like to connect with Mark, his contact information can be found here:

https://www.mrllp.com/

In this episode, we sit down with one of the most effective insurance lobbyists in the industry to talk about why insurance keeps losing the public narrative, why honesty and expertise matter more than money, and what happens when even insurance executives stop believing in their own product.

Show Notes

• Why insurance lobbying keeps losing: Too few resources, too much territory, and “hired-gun” lobbyists who don’t actually understand how insurance works.
• The two things that make a lobbyist effective: Be the real expert in the room—and be scrupulously honest (because “you only get to lie once”).
• The bigger threat than tort reform: Public trust + affordability. When even insurance executives say they’ll drop homeowners coverage, the industry is headed toward adverse selection and a consumer backlash—unless carriers change their mindset and show up with leadership, not silence.

Chris and Paul are joined by Jim Caragher from the CIB Group (https://thecibgroup.com/) to chat about producer recruitment.  

Producers don’t fail—systems do. Why agencies that rely on luck and “shovel-ready” hires struggle, while those with real sales playbooks see 70%+ success rates.

• Why recruiting outside insurance works. How proven B2B salespeople from other industries thrive when given structure, mentorship, and a clear path to renewals and residual income.
• Building producers builds agency value. How validated next-gen producers dramatically increase agency valuation and attract private equity buyers.

Noelle McCall from Peoples First Insurance and Contract Risk Academy joins Chris and Paul to discuss the positive impacts contract review can have on your agency and some of the pitfalls to look out for.

You can learn more about Noelle and her program at https://www.contractriskacademy.com/