Today we’re sharing an episode of a podcast called The Ongoing Transformation. It’s a biweekly podcast featuring conversations about science, technology, policy, and society. They speak with interesting thinkers—leading researchers, artists, policymakers, social theorists, and other luminaries—about the ways new knowledge transforms the world.

The word "bureaucracy" may evoke red tape and DMV lines, but many groundbreaking scientific and health innovations have come from government research institutes. In this episode, host Jason Lloyd talks with University of Virginia professor Natalie Aviles about her new book An Ungovernable Foe and how the National Cancer Institute’s unique mission and culture have empowered its scientist-bureaucrats to lead pioneering cancer research, including the development of the HPV vaccine.

If you like it, you can listen to more episodes of The Ongoing Transformation wherever you get your podcasts.