A conversation with Prof. Craig Forcese of the University of Ottawa on his book "Destroying the Caroline," in which we discuss the history of the Caroline Incident, how and why it influenced the development of the doctrine of self-defense, what that says about international law itself, and how the Caroline Incident is used and abused in current debates around such issues as anticipatory self-defense and the unwilling or unable doctrine. We also talk briefly about Canadian national security law, and how it compares to that of other countries. For more info on the episode and for links to the related material, visit http://jibjabpodcast.com