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I speak to Joe Norman about the perils of running a civilization at scale, localism, and how small is not only beautiful, it's the only scale at which humanity works.

We also chat about:

- Being Luddites

- The cheapening of "Lindy" and timelessness as a better concept

- Jordan Peterson and his adventures with GMOs

- Covid as a warning on the dangers of scale

- The dangers of modeling society on one single level - the individual

- Distributism as a potential political compromise re: scale

- Deflating big institutions

- How to cultivate options without getting trapped in infinite optionality

- Libertarianism and its discontents

His recommended subversives are Christopher Alexander (architect) and Robert Rosen (theoretical biologist).

Joe Norman is the Founder and Chief Scientist at Applied Complexity Science, LLC, and one of the world's most interesting and outspoken voices in the field of complexity science.

He's also the author of the brilliant Applied Complexity Newsletter.

You can find this and his other work through his Twitter @normonics