By Sharna Fabiano
Lead & Follow offers a candid discussion of teamwork, collaboration, and professional development. Host Sharna Fabiano talks with educators, consultants, and professionals to explore the relati
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The podcast currently has 71 episodes available.
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Dr. Ron Riggio has a uniquely broad and deep perspective on the evolution of followership research over the past two decades. He is the Henry R. Kravis Professor of Leadership and Organizational Psychology and former Director of the Kravis Leadership Institute at Claremont McKenna College, where the very first followership conference took place back in 2006.
In this episode, Ron shares his thoughts on where the followership community has been and where it is going, as well as his own current work to expand the research on followership and its relationship to leadership. Learn about his current work and collaborations including the anatomy of followership, implicit peer theory, storytelling methodologies, and more.
Episode References
Claremont McKenna College
https://www.cmc.edu
Art of Followership, by Ronald E. Riggio, Ira Chaleff, & Jean Lipman-Blumen (Eds.)
https://www.amazon.com/Art-Followership-Followers-Leaders-Organizations/dp/0787996653
Global Followership Conference
http://www.followershipconference.com
Liu, Z., Riggio, R.E., Reichard, R.J., & Walker, D.O. (2022). Everyday leadership: The construct, its validation, and developmental antecedents. International Leadership Journal, 14(1), 3-35.
Beenen, G., Todorova, G., Pichler, S. & Riggio, R.E. (2022). Reconceptualizing multilevel leader-follower shared outcomes. Journal of Leadership and Organizational Studies, 29(2), 289-305. https://doi.org/10.1177/15480518221094481
Riggio, R.E., Lowe, K.B., & Levy, L. (2023). Why are followers neglected in leadership research.Organization Development Review, 55(3), 44-48.
Riggio, R.E. (2014). Followership research: Looking back and looking forward. Journal of Leadership Education, 13, DOI: 10.12806/V13/I4/C4
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Dr. Alain de Sales currently teaches at the Queensland University of Technology’s Graduate School of Business (GSB) in Brisbane, Australia. In this episode, he describes a recent educational project he coordinated for a group of MBA alumni, analyzing patterns of destructive leadership in the 2024 US presidential election cycle.
Back in Season 1 of the podcast, I interviewed Alain on his then and still groundbreaking PhD research on how courageous followership actions can interrupt and prevent the worst outcomes of destructive leadership actions – that episode is called Courageous Followers can Stop Destructive leadership. If you haven’t already, I suggest listening to that one first, before this one. It’s a detailed discussion of Alain’s theoretical work that will make this episode's real-time case study make more sense.
GSB is among 1% of business schools worldwide to have triple accreditation for excellence from the world's leading accrediting bodies. At GSB Alain teaches leadership (and followership) nationally in the Executive MBA, MBA, and Public Service Management programs along with other executive education programs.
Episode References
S1 E8 – Courageous Followers can Stop Destructive Leadership - Alain de Sales
Queensland University of Technology’s Graduate School of Business
Art Padilla, Robert Hogan, Robert B. Kaiser, “The toxic triangle: Destructive leaders, susceptible followers, and conducive environments,” The Leadership Quarterly, Volume 18, Issue 3, 2007
Project 2025 Presidential Transition Project, The Heritage Foundation
https://www.project2025.org/
Join or Die - documentary film
https://www.joinordiefilm.com/
Ira Chaleff, To Stop A Tyrant
https://www.amazon.com/Stop-Tyrant-Political-Followers-Leader/dp/1637560567/
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Connect with your host Sharna Fabiano
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Order the book: Lead & Follow
https://www.amazon.com/Lead-Follow-Dance-Inspired-Teamwork/dp/1646632796/
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Leadership Educator and Scholar Eric Kaufman shares his observations of leading and following dynamics in a variety of community and volunteer settings, from civic organizations like Kiwanis Clubs to parent-teacher organizations to church governance bodies.
Eric is a professor at Virginia Tech, where he coordinates a graduate certificate in collaborative community leadership and supports an undergraduate minor in leadership and social change. He also has a partial appointment at Virginia Cooperative Extension, and that role has focused his attention on best practices for working with community members to guide educational programming. Eric is a past president of the Association of Leadership Educators, and he is the current chair of the International Leadership Association’s followership member community. Eric has also held significant volunteer roles with his local church and draws upon those experiences to inform his research.
Episode References
Kaufman, E. K., Kennedy, R. E., & Cletzer, D. A. (2019). Understanding the Nature of Eco‐Leadership: A Mixed Methods Study of Leadership in Community Organizations. Journal of Contemporary Water Research & Education, 167(1), 33-49.
Graduate Certificate: Collaborative Community Leadership, Department of Agricultural, Leadership, and Community Education, Virginia Tech
https://www.alce.vt.edu/student-info/graduate/commleader.html
Connect with Eric Kaufman
https://www.linkedin.com/in/erickkaufman/
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Order the book: Lead & Follow
https://www.amazon.com/Lead-Follow-Dance-Inspired-Teamwork/dp/1646632796/
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Dr. Jane Bentley is a percussionist and drum circle facilitator based in Glasgow, Scotland, specializing in rhythm, improvisation, group dynamics and communication skills. She completed a Ph.D on drum circle improvisation and facilitation, highlighting the effects of group music making on human wellbeing, and revealing its fascinating leadership and followership dynamics. Jane’s work as a facilitator has broken new ground in the field of health and wellbeing, through her long-term collaborations with mental health occupational therapy staff in the UK National Health Service. She has worked with children in hospitals; in mental health care settings; in prisons, and with people with dementia. In this episode, she shares what she has discovered over the years about the power of fluid leading and following in improvised music.
Jane’s TEDx Talk
https://www.youtube.com/embed/MQo-1qlKUBE
Connect with Jane Bentley
https://artbeatmusic.org/
https://www.linkedin.com/in/jane-bentley-a2550631/
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Connect with your host Sharna Fabiano
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Order the book: Lead & Follow
https://www.amazon.com/Lead-Follow-Dance-Inspired-Teamwork/dp/1646632796/
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Eric McDermott shares a framework he developed through his decades of professional experience called the 4 Tiers of Followership (or the 4 Tiers of Help).
By day, Eric is an equity partner at a financial services firm with more than 60,000 clients. But behind the suit, in his other company, Eric was named "Best Business Influencer of the Year" winning two Stevies (the Oscars of the business world) for his social media channels. Having amassed more than half-a-million social media followers in just two years, he educates in a unique brand of visual storytelling that vibes like someone rebooted Schoolhouse Rock for the next generation. He is also a USA Today and Amazon best-selling author, and has numerous published Forbes articles, one of them on followership (see below).
Episode References
Connect with Eric McDermott
Nextpectations
https://access.nextpectations.com/
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Paul McGachey shares his theoretical research on Ira Chaleff's Courageous Follower model plus lots of terrific examples from his own professional work demonstrating what it takes to follow courageously at the higher levels of an organization, whether that's in the US military or in the business sector. Paul is a scholar-practitioner with 18 years of experience in the United States military and is currently pursuing a PhD in Education and Human Resources at Colorado State University. His primary research interests are followership and scenario planning, a tool that uses multiple future scenarios to drive strategic action and decision-making.
“The follower has to see themselves as an active participant in the organization.”
“If you’re in a relationship with a leader who does not want your feedback, you need to resist the urge to take a passive role, just because that’s how the leader or the organization sees you.”
“You need to build that leader-follower relationship and that’s going to be built on trust and results over time.”
“As you build a follower role orientation within yourself and within your organization, you’re going to gain more influence over your leader.”
“Scenario planning has been very successful at changing mental models.”
“Regardless of whether you have input in the vision, you have direct action in the implementation and culture of the organization.”
Episode References
Connect with Paul McGachey
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Connect with your host Sharna Fabiano
https://www.sharnafabiano.com
Order the book: Lead & Follow
https://www.amazon.com/Lead-Follow-Dance-Inspired-Teamwork/dp/1646632796/
Support the Show!
https://www.buzzsprout.com/1735834/support
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Your lead and follow coaching tip for today is Focus your email.
I recently received an auto-responder email message from a colleague that read, and I’m not kidding about this, QUOTE “I’m out of the office this week, and your message will be deleted. If you’d like a response, please re-send your message after next Monday when I return.” UNQUOTE
Your message will be deleted.
This is probably the most extreme example I’ve seen of email management, but I share it to illustrate the point. We are all drowning in an excessive flood of email. You probably receive hundreds of messages a week, maybe hundreds a day, and there’s no way you can read them all.
In fact, in addition to the latest spam blockers and content filters, there is still a certain amount of time and effort required to figure out what email you need to read, before you actually read any of it.
So, knowing this situation, you can make it easier for your coworkers to read and respond to your messages with a couple of guidelines. These won’t work in all situations, but they will cover you for the majority of everyday work exchanges.
First, whenever possible, follow the rule of one topic per message. This makes it easy for people to organize your message by category and especially by time sensitivity. If you ask someone for two pieces of information, one of which you need today and the other of which you need next week, that makes your message harder to organize and you’ll probably get either one or neither of your questions answered. If you send them separately, not only is each one shorter, which is almost always better, but the person will have an easier time mentally dropping them into the appropriate buckets, and responding to them in the appropriate time-frame.
Second, if you do have several related questions pertaining to the same project or the same deadline, use a numbered list so that your reader can more quickly and easily take in what you are asking. You’ll often get an itemized response in return, following your original list, which also makes it easier for you.
Third, whenever possible, keep your messages to five sentences or less, stating your purpose, your request, and any time constraints. If you have additional relevant reference material, attach them or list them below your main message, separated by an asterisk or some other obvious character. Too much text is overwhelming, and people will. not. read it, especially if it’s not necessary. There is definitely a skill to writing concisely, and it’s most definitely a valuable one that you want to have no matter what your work environment. I promise that once you start restricting yourself to five sentences, it will get easier and easier.
And finally, fourth, being crisp and focused does not mean being rude. It’s still important to be polite and positive even while you avoid unnecessary explanations or “filler” language. Remember to use the person’s name at the top of your message, and include a thank you at the end. Here’s a quick tip within a tip: include Thank you, or Thanks in your automatic signature.
Try this out, experiment, and let me know how it goes!
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Connect with your host Sharna Fabiano
https://www.sharnafabiano.com
Order the book: Lead & Follow
https://www.amazon.com/Lead-Follow-Dance-Inspired-Teamwork/dp/1646632796/
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Lindsay Burr shares the tools of Polarity ThinkingTM as a way to understand, identify, and refine leadership and followership dynamics in any group or organization. Lindsay is CEO of the Yarbrough Group and based in Washington, DC. Her career has focused on helping people clearly see and then navigate the systems that they're in. She has worked in international political spaces and in US policy and elections, and in all of her work over the last 15 years she has used Polarity Theory, a tool developed by Barry Johnson and expanded by multiple authors. Lindsay uses her knowledge of polarity thinking to help individuals, groups, and organizations achieve goals that are tied to meaningful work.
“When we think of leadership and followership as two positives that work together, you get so much more richness.”
“There are times when a leader will hold one pole, and the followers will hold another pole.”
“As soon as it’s a “but” or an “either/or,” then it sets up a conflict. As long as everyone knows it’s both/and, then you can figure out how much you need of each one for success.”
“If you have something you’ve overdone, when you find the other side of the pole, then you know how to right yourself.”
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Episode References
Global Followership Conference
http://www.followershipconference.com
4-Day Training with Lindsay at the CPSI Conference June 23-27, 2024
https://cpsiconference.com/
Polarity Map Download (scroll down to the bottom of the page)
https://www.yarbgroup.com/publications
S2 E 14 - Simultaneous Leading and Following in Complex Organizations - Chris Fuzie
https://leadfollow.buzzsprout.com/1735834/13112770-simultaneous-leading-and-following-in-complex-organizations-chris-fuzie
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Connect with Lindsay Burr
Yarbrough Group - https://www.yarbgroup.com/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lindsayyburr/
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Connect with your host Sharna Fabiano
https://www.sharnafabiano.com
Order the book: Lead & Follow
https://www.amazon.com/Lead-Follow-Dance-Inspired-Teamwork/dp/1646632796/
Support the Show!
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Your lead and follow coaching tip for today is Visual focus.
In most Western contexts, eye contact signals to the other person that you are paying attention to them. A lack of eye contact can signal the opposite: disconnection, dismissal, or disinterest. Just think about the last time you tried to share information or ask a question of someone who was looking at their screen, at their phone, or out the window. You may have had to repeat yourself because they literally didn’t hear you.
On stage, the quickest way to move the audience’s focus from one place to another is for the performers to deliberately look in the new direction.
The exception to this guideline of course is when you’re both looking at the same thing and talking about that thing, a power point slide, a white board, or maybe a beautiful sunset.
In a physical sense, our thoughts tend to follow our visual gaze. That doesn’t mean you can’t look at someone and be thinking about the laundry or some urgent deadline, but it’s harder.
In general, wherever you look, that’s what you’ll be thinking about. This is part of how the scrolling feature on your phone traps your thoughts – by trapping your eyes.
So the tip this week is to look at the person you are speaking to or listening to.
It sounds simple, but it can feel uncomfortable if you are not used to it, or if you have a challenging history with the other person, or if you’re just feeling distracted or rushed.
One way to help yourself focus visually is to remove distractions. Put your phone away, put down anything you’re carrying, and if you can, sit down in a chair facing the person. If you can’t do that, angle your body toward them as much as you can. Sitting actually lowers your heart rate and it’s a quick way to narrow your field of vision.
You can also tidy up your own space or your desk or your Zoom background so that it’s easier for other people to look at you. Here’s another Zoom tip that completely changed my life. Turn off self-view box, so that you cannot see yourself. Likewise, in shared physical spaces, remove any mirrors. Seeing yourself is incredibly distracting.
If you still have trouble maintaining visual focus, ask yourself, what are you feeling or thinking that’s making it hard? Are you self-conscious about your appearance? Do you need to clear the air with this particular person?
Address any internal discomfort over visual focus at a separate time, in a way that feels appropriate and meaningful to you. If you’re not sure how to do that, start with some private journaling.
Try this out, experiment, and let me know how it goes!
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Connect with your host Sharna Fabiano
https://www.sharnafabiano.com
Order the book: Lead & Follow
https://www.amazon.com/Lead-Follow-Dance-Inspired-Teamwork/dp/1646632796/
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Your lead and follow coaching tip for today is Take turns.
One summer I attended a large afternoon bbq, and a person I’d just met walked over and asked me about my work. Perfectly normal, right? But then he interrupted me before I could finish, and asked me another question. So, I started answering the new question, and then he interrupted again. Another question. Finally, I had to not answer at all and instead ask him a question just to break the pattern.
You might be able to imagine how irritating this rapid fire question asking can be, especially at a relaxing afternoon party, and also how little interest you would probably have in spending more time with that person in the future.
One reason interrupting is irritating is that it makes us feel that the other person isn’t listening. To feel connected, we need to be heard, whether we’re at a bbq or in a work meeting. When someone doesn’t feel heard, they instinctively pull away. They don’t want to talk or share or help or collaborate. Repeated interruption is basically a disconnection device.
Now, once in a while, if it’s really important and if it’s done calmly and for a good reason, interrupting someone is actually fine. It’s when we do it a lot and without clear purpose that it can be damaging to relationships.
So, as a proactive measure, the habit of taking turns can improve your relationships by preventing interruptions and increasing the chances that people around you feel heard and are therefore more comfortable and willing to connect with you.
Taking turns means that when someone else is speaking, wait until they are completely finished before responding or before asking another question.
If for some reason you need to interrupt, acknowledge that you are interrupting by saying something simple like, “Forgive me for interrupting but the wedding cake is being served right now, let’s go have some.” Or even, “I’m sorry to interrupt but I have another meeting at the top of the hour. Thank you so much for your time.” This will preserve the connection you have with that person.
If you aren’t sure if the person is finished, you can ask, “Are you finished?” The urgent fast-paced flow of many workplaces can sometimes make it tempting to interrupt, assume you know what’s going to be said, or discount the response entirely. That’s a connection killer, and if you do this too much, you may have to start all over again building your connection with that person.
The need to be heard is so strong that even if you think you DO already know what the person is going to say, it’s still important that you hear them say it.
Try this out, experiment, and let me know how it goes!
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Connect with your host Sharna Fabiano
https://www.sharnafabiano.com
Order the book: Lead & Follow
https://www.amazon.com/Lead-Follow-Dance-Inspired-Teamwork/dp/1646632796/
Support the Show!
https://www.buzzsprout.com/1735834/support
The podcast currently has 71 episodes available.
1,916 Listeners