Lead & Follow

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Full transcript and show notes: https://www.sharnafabiano.com/2026/07/29/how-to-recognize-destructive-leadership-before-it-becomes-normal-alain-de-sales/

How does destructive leadership gain influence before people recognize the damage it is causing? Dr. Alain de Sales examines this question through a real-time case study of the 2024 U.S. presidential election cycle, exploring how harmful leadership patterns emerge gradually—and why the choices of those around a leader can shape what happens next.

Alain de Sales teaches at Queensland University of Technology’s Graduate School of Business in Brisbane, Australia, where he works with MBA, Executive MBA, and public service management students on leadership and followership. His PhD research explored how courageous actions from those around leaders can interrupt destructive leadership patterns and prevent harmful outcomes.

GSB is among 1% of business schools worldwide to have triple accreditation for excellence from the world's leading accrediting bodies. At GSB Alain teaches leadership (and followership) nationally in the Executive MBA, MBA, and Public Service Management programs along with other executive education programs. 

You’ll learn:

• How destructive leadership can become normalized before people recognize the warning signs 
• Why speaking up and challenging harmful decisions requires courage from those around leaders 
• What organizations can learn from whistleblowing, transparency, and accountability 
• How shared responsibility influences whether destructive leadership continues 
• Why agreement on basic facts matters for rebuilding trust and collective action 

Episode References

S1 E8 – Courageous Followers can Stop Destructive Leadership - Alain de Sales

Queensland University of Technology’s Graduate School of Business

Art Padilla, Robert Hogan, Robert B. Kaiser, “The toxic triangle: Destructive leaders, susceptible followers, and conducive environments,” The Leadership Quarterly, Volume 18, Issue 3, 2007

Project 2025 Presidential Transition Project, The Heritage Foundation
https://www.project2025.org/ 

Join or Die - documentary film
https://www.joinordiefilm.com/

Ira Chaleff, To Stop A Tyrant
https://www.amazon.com/Stop-Tyrant-Political-Followers-Leader/dp/1637560567/

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Sharna Fabiano is the author of Lead & Follow: The Dance of Inspired Teamwork and host of the Lead & Follow Podcast. She helps founders, solopreneurs, and new leaders build strong collaborative relationships and successful teams. 

Get a discounted coach session with Sharna with promo code PODCAST
https://www.sharnafabiano.com/coaching/

Order the book: Lead & Follow
https://www.amazon.com/Lead-Follow-Dance-Inspired-Teamwork/dp/1646632796/

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Full transcript and show notes: https://www.sharnafabiano.com/2026/07/29/leading-volunteers-when-nobody-has-to-listen-to-you-eric-kaufman/

Increasingly, leadership is understood as a relational process rather than as an authority granted by a formal title. In this episode, Sharna speaks with Dr. Eric Kaufman about how decision-making happens in community settings. Drawing from his research and experiences with civic organizations, volunteer groups, faith communities, and educational programs, Eric explores how collaboration works when people connect through a shared purpose.

Eric is a professor at Virginia Tech, where he coordinates a graduate certificate in collaborative community leadership and supports an undergraduate minor in leadership and social change.  He also has a partial appointment at Virginia Cooperative Extension, and that role has focused his attention on best practices for working with community members to guide educational programming.  

You'll learn:

• What shared responsibility looks like in volunteer-based groups
• Why many are eager to contribute but hesitant to take on official leadership positions 
• How asking better questions can create more inclusive decision-making
• Why strong communities require both leadership and active participation

Episode References

Kaufman, E. K., Kennedy, R. E., & Cletzer, D. A. (2019). Understanding the Nature of Eco‐Leadership: A Mixed Methods Study of Leadership in Community Organizations. Journal of Contemporary Water Research & Education, 167(1), 33-49.

Graduate Certificate: Collaborative Community Leadership, Department of Agricultural, Leadership, and Community Education, Virginia Tech
https://www.alce.vt.edu/student-info/graduate/commleader.html

Connect with Eric Kaufman 

https://www.linkedin.com/in/erickkaufman/

Support the show

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Sharna Fabiano is the author of Lead & Follow: The Dance of Inspired Teamwork and host of the Lead & Follow Podcast. She helps founders, solopreneurs, and new leaders build strong collaborative relationships and successful teams. 

Get a discounted coach session with Sharna with promo code PODCAST
https://www.sharnafabiano.com/coaching/

Order the book: Lead & Follow
https://www.amazon.com/Lead-Follow-Dance-Inspired-Teamwork/dp/1646632796/

Support the Show!
https://www.buzzsprout.com/1735834/support

Send Fan Mail by Text!

Full transcript and show notes: https://www.sharnafabiano.com/2026/07/29/active-listening-what-improvised-music-teaches-about-team-communication-jane-bentley/

How do groups create something meaningful when no one person knows exactly what will happen next? Dr. Jane Bentley’s research on drum circle improvisation reveals that effective collaboration depends on the same skills that help teams communicate: deep listening, responsiveness, and the ability to shift between leading and supporting in real time.

Jane Bentley is a percussionist, drum circle facilitator, and researcher based in Glasgow, Scotland. She completed a PhD on drum circle improvisation and facilitation, exploring how group music-making influences human wellbeing and reveals unique patterns of communication and shared influence. Her work includes long-term collaborations with mental health occupational therapy teams in the UK National Health Service, as well as programs with children, people in hospitals, prisons, and dementia care settings.

You’ll learn:

• How active listening improves teamwork and group communication 
• Why effective collaboration requires people to both contribute and adapt 
• What improvisational music reveals about shared leadership and decision-making 
• How groups create trust when there is no fixed plan or script 
• Why the ability to follow is essential for creating something new together 

Jane’s TEDx Talk
https://www.youtube.com/embed/MQo-1qlKUBE

 Connect with Jane Bentley 

https://artbeatmusic.org/

https://www.linkedin.com/in/jane-bentley-a2550631/

Support the show

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Sharna Fabiano is the author of Lead & Follow: The Dance of Inspired Teamwork and host of the Lead & Follow Podcast. She helps founders, solopreneurs, and new leaders build strong collaborative relationships and successful teams. 

Get a discounted coach session with Sharna with promo code PODCAST
https://www.sharnafabiano.com/coaching/

Order the book: Lead & Follow
https://www.amazon.com/Lead-Follow-Dance-Inspired-Teamwork/dp/1646632796/

Support the Show!
https://www.buzzsprout.com/1735834/support

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Full transcript and show notes: https://www.sharnafabiano.com/2026/07/29/managing-up-the-4-levels-of-help-your-boss-actually-wants-eric-mcdermott/

What does it mean to be a truly effective contributor? In this episode, Sharna speaks with Eric McDermott about his innovative 4 Tiers of Help framework—a model of learnable behaviors that immediately show you how to become genuinely more helpful to others, not by working more, but by noticing different things and making different choices. Eric developed this framework through decades of his own work in a variety of businesses, including as an equity partner in the financial services industry.

By day, Eric is an equity partner at a financial services firm with more than 60,000 clients. But behind the suit, in his other company, Eric was named "Best Business Influencer of the Year" winning two Stevies (the Oscars of the business world) for his social media channels. He is also a USA Today and Amazon best-selling author, and has numerous published Forbes articles.

You'll learn:

• Why helping others succeed is a direct way to be recognized and promoted
• What help looks like from the leading role vs from the following role 
• How to decide what kind of help is most appropriate in the moment

Episode References

• S2 E21 – Natural Followership with Chris Monö
• https://leadfollow.buzzsprout.com/1735834/13838983-natural-followership-christian-mono
•  Leadership is Only Half the Equation, Forbes
• https://www.forbes.com/sites/forbesbusinesscouncil/2023/08/14/leadership-is-only-half-the-equation/
•  Four Tiers of Help, Forbes
• https://www.forbes.com/sites/forbesbusinesscouncil/2021/07/19/four-tiers-of-help-for-unlocking-career-and-team-success/
• Eric McDermott, Team Amplifiers: 8 Ways Teams Thrive in Rapid Change
• https://www.amazon.com/Team-Amplifiers-Teams-Thrive-Change-ebook/dp/B0BWXGD1P9
• Eric McDermott, Career Amplifiers: A Field Guide for Getting Ahead
• https://www.amazon.com/Career-Amplifiers-Field-Guide-Getting-ebook/dp/B0CLGLJK1M

Connect with Eric McDermott

Nextpectations
https://access.nextpectations.com/

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Sharna Fabiano is the author of Lead & Follow: The Dance of Inspired Teamwork and host of the Lead & Follow Podcast. She helps founders, solopreneurs, and new leaders build strong collaborative relationships and successful teams. 

Get a discounted coach session with Sharna with promo code PODCAST
https://www.sharnafabiano.com/coaching/

Order the book: Lead & Follow
https://www.amazon.com/Lead-Follow-Dance-Inspired-Teamwork/dp/1646632796/

Support the Show!
https://www.buzzsprout.com/1735834/support

Send Fan Mail by Text!

Full transcript and show notes: https://www.sharnafabiano.com/2026/07/29/beyond-obedience-influencing-outcomes-without-formal-authority-paul-mcgachey/

How do you support a leader’s mission while still challenging assumptions, offering feedback, and influencing decisions? Paul McGachey explores the often-misunderstood role of strategic followers—people who may not hold the final authority but still have a responsibility to shape outcomes. Drawing from his military experience and research, he examines how courageous influence strengthens organizations when people refuse to become passive observers.

Paul McGachey is a scholar-practitioner with 18 years of experience in the United States military and is currently pursuing a PhD in Education and Human Resources at Colorado State University. His research focuses on followership and scenario planning, a strategic tool that uses multiple possible futures to improve decision-making and organizational action.

You’ll learn:

• How to influence leaders when you do not have formal authority 
• Why speaking up and challenging decisions can be an act of commitment, not opposition 
• How strategic followers build trust with leaders through feedback and results 
• Why passive agreement can weaken organizations and missions 
• How scenario planning helps teams challenge assumptions and prepare for uncertainty 

 
Episode References 

• Robert Kelley, Power of Followership - https://www.amazon.com/Power-Followership-Robert-Kelley/dp/0385413068
• Robert Kelley, “In Praise of Followers,” Harvard Business Review - https://hbr.org/1988/11/in-praise-of-followers
• Ira Chaleff, The Courageous Follower - https://www.amazon.com/Courageous-Follower-Standing-Our-Leaders/dp/1605092738 

Connect with Paul McGachey

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/paulmcgachey/
• Email: [email protected]

Support the show

*
Sharna Fabiano is the author of Lead & Follow: The Dance of Inspired Teamwork and host of the Lead & Follow Podcast. She helps founders, solopreneurs, and new leaders build strong collaborative relationships and successful teams. 

Get a discounted coach session with Sharna with promo code PODCAST
https://www.sharnafabiano.com/coaching/

Order the book: Lead & Follow
https://www.amazon.com/Lead-Follow-Dance-Inspired-Teamwork/dp/1646632796/

Support the Show!
https://www.buzzsprout.com/1735834/support

Send Fan Mail by Text!

Full transcript and show notes: https://www.sharnafabiano.com/2026/07/29/quick-tips-focus-your-email/

Your lead and follow coaching tip for today is Focus your email.

I recently received an auto-responder email message from a colleague that read, and I’m not kidding about this, QUOTE “I’m out of the office this week, and your message will be deleted. If you’d like a response, please re-send your message after next Monday when I return.” UNQUOTE

Your message will be deleted. 

This is probably the most extreme example I’ve seen of email management, but I share it to illustrate the point. We are all drowning in an excessive flood of email. You probably receive hundreds of messages a week, maybe hundreds a day, and there’s no way you can read them all. 

In fact, in addition to the latest spam blockers and content filters, there is still a certain amount of time and effort required to figure out what email you need to read, before you actually read any of it. 

So, knowing this situation, you can make it easier for your coworkers to read and respond to your messages with a couple of guidelines. These won’t work in all situations, but they will cover you for the majority of everyday work exchanges.

First, whenever possible, follow the rule of one topic per message. This makes it easy for people to organize your message by category and especially by time sensitivity. If you ask someone for two pieces of information, one of which you need today and the other of which you need next week, that makes your message harder to organize and you’ll probably get either one or neither of your questions answered. If you send them separately, not only is each one shorter, which is almost always better, but the person will have an easier time mentally dropping them into the appropriate buckets, and responding to them in the appropriate time-frame.

Second, if you do have several related questions pertaining to the same project or the same deadline, use a numbered list so that your reader can more quickly and easily take in what you are asking. You’ll often get an itemized response in return, following your original list, which also makes it easier for you.

Third, whenever possible, keep your messages to five sentences or less, stating your purpose, your request, and any time constraints.  If you have additional relevant reference material, attach them or list them below your main message, separated by an asterisk or some other obvious character. Too much text is overwhelming, and people will. not. read it, especially if it’s not necessary. There is definitely a skill to writing concisely, and it’s most definitely a valuable one that you want to have no matter what your work environment. I promise that once you start restricting yourself to five sentences, it will get easier and easier.

And finally, fourth, being crisp and focused does not mean being rude. It’s still important to be polite and positive even while you avoid unnecessary explanations or “filler” language. Remember to use the person’s name at the top of your message, and include a thank you at the end. Here’s a quick tip within a tip: include Thank you, or Thanks in your automatic signature.

Try this out, experiment, and let me know how it goes!

Support the show

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Sharna Fabiano is the author of Lead & Follow: The Dance of Inspired Teamwork and host of the Lead & Follow Podcast. She helps founders, solopreneurs, and new leaders build strong collaborative relationships and successful teams. 

Get a discounted coach session with Sharna with promo code PODCAST
https://www.sharnafabiano.com/coaching/

Order the book: Lead & Follow
https://www.amazon.com/Lead-Follow-Dance-Inspired-Teamwork/dp/1646632796/

Support the Show!
https://www.buzzsprout.com/1735834/support

Send Fan Mail by Text!

Full transcript and show notes: https://www.sharnafabiano.com/2026/07/29/resolve-workplace-conflict-the-power-of-both-and-thinking-lindsay-burr/

What if workplace conflict is not a sign that something is broken—but a signal that important perspectives are being left out? Lindsay Burr introduces Polarity Thinking, a framework for working with competing viewpoints instead of choosing sides. She explores how leaders and teams can hold tension, uncover shared goals, and make better decisions together.

Lindsay Burr is CEO of the Yarbrough Group and based in Washington, DC. She has worked across business contexts, international political spaces, and U.S. policy and elections, helping people understand the systems they are part of and identify more effective ways to work within them.

You’ll learn:

• How to handle disagreement at work without shutting down different perspectives 
• Why some conflicts are actually competing values that require a both/and approach 
• How leaders can create space for honest feedback and productive tension 
• How Polarity Thinking reveals the strengths and limitations of opposing viewpoints 
• How people can hold different views while still working toward shared goals 

Episode References

Global Followership Conference
http://www.followershipconference.com

4-Day Training with Lindsay at the CPSI Conference June 23-27, 2024
https://cpsiconference.com/

Polarity Map Download (scroll down to the bottom of the page)
https://www.yarbgroup.com/publications

S2 E 14 - Simultaneous Leading and Following in Complex Organizations - Chris Fuzie
https://leadfollow.buzzsprout.com/1735834/13112770-simultaneous-leading-and-following-in-complex-organizations-chris-fuzie


Connect with Lindsay Burr

Yarbrough Group - https://www.yarbgroup.com/

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lindsayyburr/

Support the show

*
Sharna Fabiano is the author of Lead & Follow: The Dance of Inspired Teamwork and host of the Lead & Follow Podcast. She helps founders, solopreneurs, and new leaders build strong collaborative relationships and successful teams. 

Get a discounted coach session with Sharna with promo code PODCAST
https://www.sharnafabiano.com/coaching/

Order the book: Lead & Follow
https://www.amazon.com/Lead-Follow-Dance-Inspired-Teamwork/dp/1646632796/

Support the Show!
https://www.buzzsprout.com/1735834/support

Send Fan Mail by Text!

Full transcript and show notes: https://www.sharnafabiano.com/2026/07/29/quick-tips-visual-focus/

Your lead and follow coaching tip for today is Visual focus. 

In most Western contexts, eye contact signals to the other person that you are paying attention to them. A lack of eye contact can signal the opposite: disconnection, dismissal, or disinterest. Just think about the last time you tried to share information or ask a question of someone who was looking at their screen, at their phone, or out the window. You may have had to repeat yourself because they literally didn’t hear you.

On stage, the quickest way to move the audience’s focus from one place to another is for the performers to deliberately look in the new direction. 

The exception to this guideline of course is when you’re both looking at the same thing and talking about that thing, a power point slide, a white board, or maybe a beautiful sunset.

In a physical sense, our thoughts tend to follow our visual gaze. That doesn’t mean you can’t look at someone and be thinking about the laundry or some urgent deadline, but it’s harder. 

In general, wherever you look, that’s what you’ll be thinking about. This is part of how the scrolling feature on your phone traps your thoughts – by trapping your eyes.

So the tip this week is to look at the person you are speaking to or listening to. 

It sounds simple, but it can feel uncomfortable if you are not used to it, or if you have a challenging history with the other person, or if you’re just feeling distracted or rushed.

One way to help yourself focus visually is to remove distractions. Put your phone away, put down anything you’re carrying, and if you can, sit down in a chair facing the person. If you can’t do that, angle your body toward them as much as you can. Sitting actually lowers your heart rate and it’s a quick way to narrow your field of vision.

You can also tidy up your own space or your desk or your Zoom background so that it’s easier for other people to look at you. Here’s another Zoom tip that completely changed my life. Turn off self-view box, so that you cannot see yourself. Likewise, in shared physical spaces, remove any mirrors. Seeing yourself is incredibly distracting.

If you still have trouble maintaining visual focus, ask yourself, what are you feeling or thinking that’s making it hard? Are you self-conscious about your appearance? Do you need to clear the air with this particular person?  

Address any internal discomfort over visual focus at a separate time, in a way that feels appropriate and meaningful to you. If you’re not sure how to do that, start with some private journaling.

Try this out, experiment, and let me know how it goes!

Support the show

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Sharna Fabiano is the author of Lead & Follow: The Dance of Inspired Teamwork and host of the Lead & Follow Podcast. She helps founders, solopreneurs, and new leaders build strong collaborative relationships and successful teams. 

Get a discounted coach session with Sharna with promo code PODCAST
https://www.sharnafabiano.com/coaching/

Order the book: Lead & Follow
https://www.amazon.com/Lead-Follow-Dance-Inspired-Teamwork/dp/1646632796/

Support the Show!
https://www.buzzsprout.com/1735834/support

Send Fan Mail by Text!

Full transcript and show notes: https://www.sharnafabiano.com/2026/07/29/quick-tips-take-turns/

Your lead and follow coaching tip for today is Take turns. 

One summer I attended a large afternoon bbq, and a person I’d just met walked over and asked me about my work. Perfectly normal, right? But then he interrupted me before I could finish, and asked me another question. So, I started answering the new question, and then he interrupted again. Another question. Finally, I had to not answer at all and instead ask him a question just to break the pattern. 

You might be able to imagine how irritating this rapid fire question asking can be, especially at a relaxing afternoon party, and also how little interest you would probably have in spending more time with that person in the future. 

One reason interrupting is irritating is that it makes us feel that the other person isn’t listening. To feel connected, we need to be heard, whether we’re at a bbq or in a work meeting. When someone doesn’t feel heard, they instinctively pull away. They don’t want to talk or share or help or collaborate. Repeated interruption is basically a disconnection device.

Now, once in a while, if it’s really important and if it’s done calmly and for a good reason, interrupting someone is actually fine. It’s when we do it a lot and without clear purpose that it can be damaging to relationships.

So, as a proactive measure, the habit of taking turns can improve your relationships by preventing interruptions and increasing the chances that people around you feel heard and are therefore more comfortable and willing to connect with you. 

Taking turns means that when someone else is speaking, wait until they are completely finished before responding or before asking another question. 

If for some reason you need to interrupt, acknowledge that you are interrupting by saying something simple like, “Forgive me for interrupting but the wedding cake is being served right now, let’s go have some.” Or even, “I’m sorry to interrupt but I have another meeting at the top of the hour. Thank you so much for your time.” This will preserve the connection you have with that person.

If you aren’t sure if the person is finished, you can ask, “Are you finished?” The urgent fast-paced flow of many workplaces can sometimes make it tempting to interrupt, assume you know what’s going to be said, or discount the response entirely. That’s a connection killer, and if you do this too much, you may have to start all over again building your connection with that person. 

The need to be heard is so strong that even if you think you DO already know what the person is going to say, it’s still important that you hear them say it.

Try this out, experiment, and let me know how it goes!

Support the show

*
Sharna Fabiano is the author of Lead & Follow: The Dance of Inspired Teamwork and host of the Lead & Follow Podcast. She helps founders, solopreneurs, and new leaders build strong collaborative relationships and successful teams. 

Get a discounted coach session with Sharna with promo code PODCAST
https://www.sharnafabiano.com/coaching/

Order the book: Lead & Follow
https://www.amazon.com/Lead-Follow-Dance-Inspired-Teamwork/dp/1646632796/

Support the Show!
https://www.buzzsprout.com/1735834/support

Send Fan Mail by Text!

Full transcript and show notes: https://www.sharnafabiano.com/2026/07/29/how-to-have-better-conversations-presence-connection-and-social-confidence-dan-istrate/

What makes a conversation feel effortless, meaningful, and alive? Actor and director Dan Istrate explores the hidden skills behind human connection: presence, responsiveness, and the ability to move between expressing yourself and truly receiving another person. Drawing from decades of work in theater and cross-cultural communication, Dan reveals how every interaction is a shared creation rather than a performance we have to control.

Dan Istrate grew up in Romania and has lived in the United States for 25 years. As an actor and director, he has experienced thousands of moments of cultural translation and miscommunication while collaborating on stage and screen. His work explores how people connect across differences through attention, play, and authentic presence.

You’ll learn:

• How to feel more comfortable and present in everyday conversations 
• Why trying to control how others perceive you can limit connection 
• How listening and responsiveness create better interactions 
• What performers understand about reading the energy of a conversation 
• How social connection depends on both expressing yourself and making space for others 

Episode References
S1 E 15 - Lead/Follow Relationships in Live Theater Performance - Dan Istrate
https://leadfollow.buzzsprout.com/1735834/9621693-lead-follow-relationships-in-live-theater-performance-dan-istrate 

Connect with Dan Istrate:

Website: www.danistrate.com

IG: @DanIstrateDC

FB: Dan.Istrate.796

Support the show

*
Sharna Fabiano is the author of Lead & Follow: The Dance of Inspired Teamwork and host of the Lead & Follow Podcast. She helps founders, solopreneurs, and new leaders build strong collaborative relationships and successful teams. 

Get a discounted coach session with Sharna with promo code PODCAST
https://www.sharnafabiano.com/coaching/

Order the book: Lead & Follow
https://www.amazon.com/Lead-Follow-Dance-Inspired-Teamwork/dp/1646632796/

Support the Show!
https://www.buzzsprout.com/1735834/support