Let's Talk Wellness Now

Dr. Deb Muth 00:08

What if the toxins in your food and water weren't just harming our bodies, but rewriting the very code of human health?

My guest today, MIT scientist Dr. Stephanie Sineff, has spent over a decade connecting the dots between environmental toxins, metabolic chaos, and neurological decline. You'll want to hear every word of this conversation.

You guys can put our, Serenity ad in here, and then I'll do the standard intro.

Welcome back to Let's Talk Wellness Now, the show where we uncover the root causes of chronic illness, explore cutting-edge regenerative medicine, and empower you with the tools to heal. I'm Dr. Deb, your medical detective.

And today, we're diving into how environmental toxins and nutritional imbalances are silently shaping chronic disease patterns, from autoimmune disorders to neurodegenerative decline.

And how we can take back control of our health. So, as usual, grab your cup of coffee, tea, or whatever helps you unwind, settle in, and let's get started on your journey to deeper healing.

So, Dr. Sunif, so glad to have you here. I can't wait to have this conversation with you. We were just chatting off-camera a few seconds ago about what we're going to chat about, but tell us a little bit about your background and how you got into this field of looking at toxins and mitochondria.

Seneff 01:50

Okay, yeah, my background is a bit eclectic, so it starts out with biology. I have an undergraduate degree in biology from MIT. My PhD is in electrical engineering and computer science, so that's quite a switchover. And most of my career, I was writing computer code to train computers to talk to humans in a natural

conversation… conversational interaction with computers. We were pioneers in that space. You can see that it has really taken off now. And actually, by 2006, 2007, I started to realize that

the kind of work I did already then was getting compromised by the, by the emergence of AI.

And I got concerned that, I wouldn't be able to sustain the path I was on. And it's happening now, of course, to the young… many people, young people today, are facing a crisis in computer science, because it used to be if you had skills in hacking code, you were good to go, you know, and that's just not true anymore, so that's another whole story, but anyway, I decided I needed to do something different, and I pivoted in a big way in 2007.

managed to get the company that had been funding me, a Taiwanese company called Quanta Computers, And they,

We're willing to switch over to funding me to do research on health and toxic chemical exposures.

Which was a miracle that they let… they let me switch over to that, and that was fantastic, 2007. So it's been almost 20 years.

that I've been looking for toxic chemical exposures and their association with human disease. And I focused initially on autism and heart disease, kind of for personal reasons, because I knew people who had, you know, who had those issues.

But it led into a much, much bigger story, and I'm super excited about what's happened over the last 20 years. It's been a continual learning experience for me, and I've just kept broadening my space in biology, furiously reading papers as I discovered new concepts and trying to explore those.

opening up new windows, and it's just been a profusion of learning over the past 20 years, and I've published many papers at this point.

Peer-reviewed papers on the topics of toxic chemical exposures and disease.

Particularly, glyphosate is the one I really focused on, and I wrote the book, Toxic Legacy, how the weed killer glyphosate is Destroying Our Health and the Environment.

That was published in 2021. So.

Dr. Deb Muth 04:18

So I'm sure you have a few thoughts about the administration wanting to bring that back to be made at home instead of China, right?

Seneff 04:26

I know, that's so interesting. And actually, you know, he makes a point that I agree with, which is that we are relying on China.

for importing a whole bunch of stuff that's really toxic, and we're pouring it all over our food supply, so China's probably very happy to poison us, you know? Oh, absolutely. It's kind of ironic that we're doing that, and he makes a good point that we shouldn't be relying on China for these chemicals that are poisoning us, but where he misses the point is he says, well, we just need to poison ourselves, you know? Rather than getting rid of that chemical, we need to really change the way we grow food.

I think it's the number one most important thing right now.

in America is to change the way we grow food, and it has to be certified organic, regenerative. We need to focus on healing the soil, just as we have to heal the gut. I mean, we've really messed up the microbes in both the soil and the gut, and the consequences, as you can see, are a huge problem with human disease.

Dr. Deb Muth 05:20

They're devastating. I mean, we have so much chronic illness and so much neurological disease these days, and just the rise of autism, it should be telling us that we're doing something wrong, right?

Seneff 05:31

Absolutely.

Dr. Deb Muth 05:32

We have a problem. For those people who are listening that don't understand what the term glyphosate is, can you explain that a little bit to them?

Seneff 05:39

Yeah, so it's one of the many herbicides that we use. We use herbicides, fungicides, and insecticides in agriculture, all these poisons, and it kind of seems crazy to me that we would think it's okay to pour poisons all over our food supply. I don't understand why we think that's fine.

Yeah. You know, categorically. Glyphosate is supposed to be a wonderful chemical, because it's an herbicide that kills all plants except for those that have been engineered to resist it.

And supposedly is completely harmless to humans. And that's what gets to be, you know, disbelief, because how can something so toxic to plants be harmless to humans? Just, how can it be?

Dr. Deb Muth 06:14

We haven't been re-engineered like the seeds that they use from Monsanto, so how can it not affect us if it only affects everything but their seeds that they've modified to make grow beautifully under that condition? It doesn't make any sense.

Seneff 06:32

Right, and of course, the critical thing they missed is that our gut microbes do have that pathway. It's the chicken mate pathway that it disrupts. Really critical in all the plants, and in most of the microbes.

In the soil and in the gut, and so it kills off the microbes as well as the plants, and when it kills off your gut microbes, you gotta watch out, because gut dysbiosis is a huge thing. And we've had so many papers coming out lately that

Talking about the relationship between gut dysbiosis and all kinds of different diseases.

Dr. Deb Muth 07:01

Do you think that's why we see so much gut dysbiosis these days?

Seneff 07:04

Oh, absolutely. I think it's not just glyphosate, because we have lots of poisons that are messing up our gut microbes, but glyphosate is a really big one, because the shikimate pathway is essential for many of the microbes, and they use it to make essential nutrients for the host. So we get compromised as well, just because they can't make those nutrients in that.

Dr. Deb Muth 07:22

It's so…

Seneff 07:22

lies.

Dr. Deb Muth 07:23

so much harder today to treat people with gut issues than it was 25 years ago when I started. It was so much easier. And now, it's, like, nearly impossible sometimes to get some of these people back to a good, healthy gut microbiome, no matter what you do, no matter how well they eat, and all the things that they do. It's a struggle, for sure, compared to what it was 20 years ago.

Seneff 07:44

It's interesting that you have that personal experience, because I think people like you really can see what's happening.

Dr. Deb Muth 07:49

and appreciate.

Seneff 07:50

the difference between then and now. I, of course, as a child, autism was not something I knew about at all.

Really, when I was a child. It didn't exist, basically. I mean, it was so rare.

And now, you know, everyone knows someone with autism, you know, pretty much.

Dr. Deb Muth 08:08

autism and Parkinson's and Alzheimer's seems to be just so much commonplace. Everybody knows somebody in their family that is affected by one of those disorders, if not multiples, and

We tend to say it's genetic, right? Well, there's got to be a genetic… why wasn't it genetic 50 years ago, or 100 years ago? But now, all of a sudden, it's so prevalent in our environment that we've just become acceptable of it, and I think that's wrong for us to do that. We shouldn't be doing that.

Seneff 08:38

I know. I find it very interesting how quickly it appears that humans adapt to the new normal, you know?

Dr. Deb Muth 08:44

Yeah.

Seneff 08:45

It's normal that you have, you know.

3% of the kids have autism, that's normal, you know? It's just like, no, it's not. And also, of course, all the Alzheimer's and dementia and Parkinson's, as you mentioned, in the elderly, those are connected, because they're all related to brain problems that are being caused by chemicals that are destroying the brain.

Dr. Deb Muth 09:03

Yeah. So, how does glyphosphate interact with our body's ability to absorb those essential nutrients, like sulfur?

Seneff 09:12

Yeah, well, it's… that's a big… that's a big question. I don't know ...

Dr. Deb Muth 00:04

What if the future of healing isn't about replacing cells, but about teaching your body how to heal itself again? We keep hearing the words stem cells and exoomes thrown around like they're interchangeable, but they're not. One is regulated, controversial, and often misunderstood. The other is rapidly emerging as one of the most exciting communication systems in human biology.

Dr. Deb Muth 00:33

And here's the real question no one's asking. Are we actually regenerating tissue or are we just stimulating the body to remember how it used to heal? Tired of being told your labs are normal, but you still feel terrible? At Serenity Healthcare Center, we don't chase symptoms. We find the root cause. hormones, gut health, autoimmune conditions, chronic fatigue, brain fog.

Dr. Deb Muth 01:02

We use cuttingedge functional and regenerative medicine to get you real answers and a real path forward. This isn't your average doctor's office. This is medicine the way it was meant to be practiced. You deserve to feel like yourself again. Visit serenityhealthcarecenter.com to book your appointment today. Let us help you heal from the inside out.

Dr. Deb Muth 01:28

Welcome back to Let's Talk Wellness Now. I'm Dr. Deb, your host. And if you've been following regenerative medicine, you've probably noticed the confusion. Patients are asking me every week, are exoomes stem cells? Are stem cells legal in the United States? I heard the FDA is shutting down all these clinics. Can I even get this therapy? Do I have to leave the country for treatment? Today, we're cutting through the noise. This episode is not hype.

Dr. Deb Muth 01:54

It's not sales. It's education so you can understand the science, the regulatory reality, and the clinical difference between stem cell therapy and exoome therapy. And here's what I want you to know right up front. Yes, these therapies are being used in the United States every single day. Yes, they're being offered by highly trained physicians in integrative and regenerative medicine clinics across the country.

Dr. Deb Muth 02:22

Some are being used in FDA registered clinical trials. Some are being used in observational studies and some are being used in clinical practice under physician discretion. The landscape is nuanced and you deserve to understand it. So, grab your cup of coffee or tea and settle in for a deep dive into the most understood therapies in regenerative medicine.

Dr. Deb Muth 02:43

what they actually are, how they work, the regulatory landscape, and how they might support your body's natural healing capacity. Let's talk wellness now. So, let me start by asking you something. When you hear the word stem cell, what do you picture? Most people imagine damaged tissues magically regenerating or a torn meniscus growing back, cartilage reforming it into an arthritic joint or damaged brain tissue being replaced with healthy new beautiful cells. It's a beautiful vision.

Dr. Deb Muth 03:15

And while it's not quite that simple, the reality is actually more sophisticated and honestly more beautiful. Stem cells are powerful and they absolutely work, but the way they work and the mechanism by which they support healing is far more elegant and more so than most people really understand. And if you're going to invest in regenerative therapy, you deserve to understand what you're actually receiving.

Dr. Deb Muth 03:44

So, let's start at the beginning. What are stem cells? At their core, stem cells are undifferentiated cells. That means they haven't yet decided what they want to be when they grow up. Unlike a heart cell or a skin cell or a bone cell which have already committed to a specific function, stem cells exist in this beautiful state of potential.

Dr. Deb Muth 04:05

They have two remarkable abilities. First, they can self-renew. They can make copies of themselves, maintaining a reserve of these powerful cells throughout your lifetime. Second, they can differentiate under the right conditions. They can transform into specialized cell types. Bone cells, cartilage cells, nerve cells, muscle cells, even blood cells.

Dr. Deb Muth 04:27

This is why they've captured the imagination of the medical world. The potential is extraordinary. Now, there are several types of stem cells and understanding the differences matters tremendously for both understanding how they work and understanding how they're regulated. Adult mezzenymal stem cells. We call these MSC's are the most commonly used regenerative medicine.

Dr. Deb Muth 04:54

These come from bone marrow, atapost tissue, that's fat, and other adult sources. They're what we can call multi-potent, meaning they can become several types of cells, but not every type. A bone marrow stem cell isn't going to become a brain cell, for instance. It has potential but it's directed potential.

Dr. Deb Muth 05:19

Then we have perinatal stem cells. These come from umbilical cord blood cord tissue or something called Wharton's jelly which is the gelatinous substance inside the umbilical cord. These cells are younger, more potent, and research by Weiss and colleagues published in stem cells back in 2006 showed that Wharton's jelly derived MSC's have superior proliferation and differentiation potential compared to bone marrow derived cells.

Dr. Deb Muth 05:48

They're like comparing a 20-year-old athlete to a 50-year-old athlete. Both can perform, but one has more reserve capacity, more vigor, and more regenerative potential. And this isn't this is very important because the perinatal sources umbilical cord tissue Wharton's jelly amniotic tissue these are what many regenerative medicine clinics in the United States are using today and they're using them because these tissues are incredibly rich in not just stem cells but growth factors cytoines and exoomes.

Dr. Deb Muth 06:21

Then there are embryionic stem cells. These are pur potent and they become any cell type in the body, but they're highly regulated, ethically controversial, and honestly, they're not being used in clinical practice in the United States outside of the very specific FDA approved research trials.

Dr. Deb Muth 06:41

So, when clinics talk about stem cell therapy, they're almost never talking about embryionic stem cells. Now, here's where it gets interesting and this is the part that changes everything about how we understand regenerative medicine. When you receive stem cell therapy, let's say someone injects umbilical cord derived messenymal stem cells into your arthritic knee, those cells do not typically engraft or become new tissue in any permanent way.

Dr. Deb Muth 07:12

They don't set up shop in your joint and start cracking out new cartilage cells for the rest of your life. So what are they actually doing then? Well, in 2011, researchers Arnold Arnold Kaplan and Dennis Korea published a landmark paper in stem cells translational medicine that fundamentally changed how we understand MSC therapy.

Dr. Deb Muth 07:35

They proposed that we should stop calling memal stem cells and start calling them medicinal signaling cells. Why? Well, because their primary therapeutic benefit doesn't come from what they become. It comes from what they secrete. Think of stem cells as incredibly sophisticated biological pharmacies. When you inject them into damaged tissue, that arthritic knee, that inflamed autoimmune condition, that injured brain, that don't just sit there passively, they sense the environment.

Dr. Deb Muth 08:07

They detect inflammation. They recognize the tissue damage and they understand that the immune dysregulation is present and they see that and respond. They start pumping out hundreds of bioactive molecules, growth factors that tell your cells to repair and rebuild, cytoines that modulate inflammation, chemocines that recruit your body's own healing cells to the area.

Dr. Deb Muth 08:32

And these tiny membranes bound packages called extracellular vesicles, including exosomes, which we're going to talk about extensively today as well. These secreted factors are giving instructions to your native cells. They're saying, "Let's reduce inflammation. Let's modulate your immune response. Let's promote angioenesis.

Dr. Deb Muth 08:53

" That's the formation of new blood vessels, bringing nutrients and oxygen. Let's stimulate your own resident stem cells to wake up and get to work. Reduce cell death in damaged tissue and restore normal cellular function. This is called paracrine signaling. It's the cellto cell communication. And this is where the real therapeutic power lives.

Dr. Deb Muth 09:14

The stem cells themselves, many of them die within days to weeks, but the cascade of healing they trigger, the signals they send, the programs they activate in your own cells, those effects can last for months or even years. Now, this understanding is crucial because it explains why both stem cell therapy and exoo therapy can be effective.

Dr. Deb Muth 09:38

The stem cells are powerful not because they become new tissue but because of the signals they send and exoomes are those signals isolated and concentrated. The biggest misconception in regenerative medicine is that stem cells replace tissue and in reality they coach healing more than they become healing. They're biological educators teaching your body to remember how it used to heal before chronic inflammation, toxicity, and disease turned off all those programs.

Dr. Deb Muth 10:12

So if stem cells don't exactly end graft and become the new tissue, if their power is in their signaling and then next logic

Dr. Deb Muth 00:03
Welcome to Let’s Talk Wellness Now. I am your host, Dr. Deb.
And today, I have the pleasure of meeting with Dr. James Greenblatt. I’ve known Dr. Greenblatt for a very long time. We, started lecturing together, gosh, over 15 years ago.
And he is an amazing practitioner. Dr. Greenblatt is dual board certified in psychiatry and internationally recognized.
as a pioneer in functional and integrative psychiatry. He’s widely regarded as the leading expert on the clinical application of low-dose lithium for mental health.
Dr. Greenblatt has spent more than 30 years advancing precision medicine-based approaches that move beyond symptom management to address the root causes of mental illness.
And after earning his medical degree at George Washington University.
Dr. Greenblatt completed his psychiatry and residency there as a fellow in child and adolescent psychiatry.
Joined John Hopkins Medical School, and he currently serves as an assistant clinical professor of Psychiatry at Tufts University. He is a prolific author. Dr. Greenblatt has written 9 books, including his newest book, Finally Hopeful. in… available in January of 2026. We can ask him about this today.
And his bestsellers finally focused the breathwork, natural treatment plan for ADHD,
Answers to anorexia, Functional and Integrative Medicine for Antidepressant withdrawal, and nutritional lithium, and Untold tale of Mineral and Transforms Lives, that heals the brain.
He has founded, in 2019, the Psychiatry Redefined, a leading educational platform training clinicians worldwide in functional and integrative psychiatry. He is a sought-after international speaker. Dr. Greenblatt regularly lectures
On nutritional psychiatry and the transformative role of functional medicine.
I am super excited to have him here with us today. This is going to be a pleasure. You guys are going to love this conversation that we are going to have.

And I am going to pick his brain today on functional and integrative psychology and psychiatry, and combining nutrition, biochemistry, and lifestyle with mental health care.
I’m really, really happy to have Dr. Greenblatt with us, so I am going to bring him on, and we are going to have this amazing conversation with my friend.
Welcome back to Let’s Talk Wellness Now. I’m your host, Dr. Deb, and I have with me Dr. James Greenblatt, who I have followed for… we were just chatting about this for over 20 years.
He is amazing in what he is doing, and we are going to have this conversation today about integrative psychiatry and the future of mental health. So, welcome to the show, Dr. Greenblatt.

James greenblatt md 03:20
Thank you, Dips, good to be with you.

Dr. Deb Muth 03:22
Now, you’ve been pioneering this integrative psychiatry for decades. What really inspired you to bridge nutrition and psychiatry long before it’s become mainstream?

James greenblatt md 03:35
You know, I developed an interest in college, you know, studying nutrition, and then I remember writing papers on orthomolecular psychiatry, high dose, vitamin B3 for schizophrenia.
So, I really did not think I’d be a psychiatrist. I wanted to be a pediatrician when I went to medical school, but, just early interest in nutrition and brain function.
And it’s been my career now for 30-plus years.

Dr. Deb Muth 04:05
Wow. Can you define what integrative psychiatry actually means, and how it’s different from traditional psychiatry for most people who wouldn’t be familiar with that term?

James greenblatt md 04:17
Sure, I mean, I have to add the word functional as well. I mean, I think, you know, I call myself a functional psychiatrist, but for most of my career, and every book, and everything I did, I would have to use words like functional and integrative.
Medicine for mental illness. And, you know, I define integrative medicine as the… Adjunctive lifestyle, mindfulness. And diet, sleep, and exercise.

Dr. Deb Muth 04:46
Mmm.

James greenblatt md 04:46
And I kind of use the term functional for kind of a deeper root cause dive, looking at nutritional deficiencies, looking at hormones, looking at genetics. And, you know, to treat patients with mental health challenges, we need both integrative and functional medicine.

Dr. Deb Muth 05:05
That’s awesome. You know, in our integrative space, we often kind of joke that there’s no such thing as a Prozac deficiency, right? Can you explain to our listeners how nutrient deficiencies, gut health, or inflammation can play a role in mental illness?

James greenblatt md 05:23
Sure, I mean, I think the most important
Beginning of this conversation would be that, you know, 10 people with depression, there might be 10 different underlying factors.

Dr. Deb Muth 05:35
Yeah.

James greenblatt md 05:35
And we do know that there’s not an antidepressant deficiency, so we have to look deeper. And… and that’s,
just different than our current psychiatry model, where it’s just symptomatic-based medicine. Everyone who’s depressed. It’s an antidepressant.
And by looking at functional integrative medicine, we’re looking at B12 and vitamin D and zinc and magnesium. We’re looking at hormones, we’re looking at the gut, and we’re trying to determine what might be either causing or contributing to that person’s depression.

Dr. Deb Muth 06:10
Is there a particular, flavor that you see more commonly with others, like depression versus anxiety versus bipolar. Is there a particular underlying factor that you see more commonly than others?

James greenblatt md 06:27
Well, the short answer is no, and that’s why this work takes time, because you have to think.
You know, every patient that walks in the office is different. I mean, I think the overarching umbrella is nutritional deficiencies, you know, whether… regardless of weight, regardless of diet. I mean, I have people coming in who’ve been eating…
You know, these ketogenic or paleo diets, you know, perfect organic foods, and are profoundly nutritionally deficient.
So I think nutritional deficiencies would be number one, and then, you know, the whole host of, you know, infections and hormone problems and inflammatory issues related to celiac disease is really common in the mental health space that’s ignored.

Dr. Deb Muth 07:14
Yeah. Celiac disease is really not paid attention too much, other than thinking that it’s damaging the gut. They don’t really think about all the other aspects of the body that are being affected by the gut not being able to absorb the nutrients properly and then utilize them properly. It’s really sad.

James greenblatt md 07:34
we find out… and there’s research to support it. That’s the tragedy. This is not something, as clinicians, that we found. We have many, many years of research showing high rates of anxiety and depression, you know, amongst those with, celiac disorder because of this chronic malnutrition, and many patients present without any GI symptoms, just mental health complaints, but nobody’s looking at celiac.

Dr. Deb Muth 08:02
Yeah. You know, I’m sure there’s people that are listening to us thinking, there’s no way that
Everybody who’s depressed or anxious has a nutritional deficiency. When we’re… live in a country where there’s so much abundance of food, and the obesity rates are high, and most people are very plump, how could those people be deficient in nutrients? What do you say to people who think like that?

James greenblatt md 08:28
Yeah, I mean, I think that, you know, we have, what’s called high caloric malnutrition, so regardless of weight, I would say the vast majority of patients with a mental health issue I would say my best guess would be 90-plus percent.

Dr. Deb Muth 08:47
Wow.

James greenblatt md 08:47
We would find nutritional deficiencies.

Dr. Deb Muth 08:51
And part of this, we’ve discovered, is genetics.

James greenblatt md 08:56
People having, kind of, genetic needs for Higher amounts of certain micronutrients. Some of it is just the kinds of foods people are eating. The kind of ultra-processed food actually strips the body of micronutrients. So, it is just so common, and many of these tests are pretty simple that your primary care doctor could do in the office.

Dr. Deb Muth 09:22
So, traditional labs can identify some of these nutritional deficiencies. They don’t necessarily have to invest thousands of dollars in advanced nutrient testing to find these things out.

James greenblatt md 09:35
Absolutely. I mean, I think, you know, oftentimes when we’re working with a patient who has failed traditional psychiatric treatment, we do need some functional, testing, but I’m quite convinced we could change the trajectory of our mental health epidemic in this country by some labs that are covered by every insurance company on the planet. Like, people think of vitamin D as, you know, building bones or immune function.
It has dramatic relationships to mental health problems, demonstrated over 30 years of research. So vitamin D and B12 and folate, all simple blood tests that are covered by all health insurances.

Dr. Deb Muth 10:18
You know, with the change of genetics, MTHFR is so popularly known these days. It’s probably the most popular genetic mutation that people know of.
And in the mental health space, it plays a significant role as well in that absorption of B12 and folate. How do you look at MTHFR mutation with inside the mental health world?

James greenblatt md 10:43
Well, I think it’s, It’s critical, it’s required on every patient that I see, and I’ve been, known to say it would be considered malpractice for psychiatrists not to test for the MTHFR gene. Because most of my career, I’ve spent working in inpatient psychiatric hospitals and residential. So seeing those individuals that have failed outpatient treatment, so really struggling.
And one of the most common things I’ve been seeing for 30 years are those psychiatric patients not responsive to traditional treatment. oftentimes have one of the more significant MTHFR variants. And so we started doing the testing in the hospital, and they came back with these you know, variants and treated with folate, the medicines worked better, and their depression got better. It is simple. And essential. So, the integrative community, our community is aware of it, but our conventional psychiatrists are not testing for MTHFR.

Dr. Deb Muth 11:50
Yeah, it’s so sad, isn’t it? Because it’s such a simple test, and can make such a big difference in people’s lives. I know even in the OBGYN community, we’re not looking at MTHFR, and yet we’re giving women all this folic acid that many of them might not be able to actually utilize.
And we’re… in my opinion, we’re doing a disservice to those women and the children that are being born to them for that.

James greenblatt md 12:15
Yeah, no, it’s frustrating, when there are clear, simple, treatment interventions that could make major difference in people’s lives that are just not incorporated into, kind of, routine treatment models.

Dr. Deb Muth 12:31
How come we see some people with MTHFR mutations, or gene mutations, have depression and anxiety that is so severe, and then other people seem to have absolutely no problems with mental health at all, and they have a similar profile?

James greenblatt md 12:47
Yeah, I mean, that’s just a great example, as, you know, genes aren’t our destiny, it’s just kind of a vulnerability.
And, you know, we actually, when we were in the hospital, we tested, you know. hundreds of people and staff as well. And, you know, people are going to be lived to 100 and have these very vulnerable MTHFR genes. So it’s not the genes, it’s… I call it that genetic-environmental dance. So if we add… that genetic vulnerability, and maybe we add a, you know, a Lyme infection, or a chronic stress, or a B12 deficiency, or celiac, or we could list a hundred things, stress and inflammation probably being the most significant. With that genetic vulnerability, that’s where, you know, the implications of treatment come more defined.

Dr. Deb Muth 13:45
Yeah. What do you think the role of trauma plays in all of this, too, with the genetics? Do you think that trauma that people are living with today makes a big impact on their genes and how their genes are being turned on or off?

James greenblatt md 14:01
Yeah, I mean, we know trauma is kind of, you know, sets the stage for so much psychiatric illness. I think in my… Community of mental health professionals. we kind of use the trauma as an excuse to not think of the biology. And trauma… Affects the biology.

Dr. Deb Muth 14:21
So…

James greenblatt md 14:22
without negating the past trauma or current trauma, we still need to dig deep into the B12 and MTHFR and vitamin D. But… the trauma does affect the expression of certain genes. It also ex… we see a lot of, nutritional deficiencies after trauma due to poor digestion, because the Digestive enzymes and the hydrochloric acid kind of just shut down. And so, again, eating great food, but not absorbing these micronutrients. So I’ve seen that years after trauma.

Dr. Deb Muth 14:5
Yeah, it’s really hard. I’ve worked with Dr. Mark Gordon, and he does a lot of trauma work for veterans, and he focuses a lot on the hormones that get affected because of the brain trauma and the head trauma that people experience in combat. Or the repetitive shot firings and things like that, and how it correlates to anxiety. And then just balancing out some of those hormones can make a significant difference for them, and he’s actually been tracking the reduction of some of the hormones as a result of those traumas. Have you seen similar things like that with mental health and hormones?

James greenblatt md 15:36
Not… I haven’t made that direct correlation, but what we see when we evaluate somebody with trauma is just, you know, a kind of very wide range of metabolic abnormalities from Hormonal, to insulin resistance, to nutrient deficiencies, again, that aren’t dietary related.

Dr. Deb Muth 15:57
So…

James greenblatt md 15:58
Definitely, somehow, some path from the trauma.

Dr. Deb Muth 16:03
Yeah. If you had to choose your most favorite cutting-edge research or biomarker that you’re most excited about right now in the world of nutritional psychology or psychiatry, what would that be?

James greenblatt md 16:19
Well, you know, I counted as 250 that we look at when I evaluate a site patient, but there’s one… That is so simple, and has such profound implications, and that’s looking at levels of cryptopyrrol in the urine.

Dr. Deb Muth 16:36
Oh, yeah.

James greenblatt md 16:37
urine test. It measures this, molecule, a pyrole derivative, and Most of us would have normal levels. And if it’s elevated, It is, it’s likely a genetic vulnerability, but this, cryptopyrrol just binds B6 and zinc. So you have this tremendous deficiency of B6 and zinc. And elevated cryptopyril is always associated with psychiatric symptoms, usually anxiety, but we’ve seen depression and panic and even paranoia. And it’s simple to treat. We’re talking about, you know, pennies a day, B6 and zinc.

Dr. Deb Muth 17:20
The marker comes down.

James greenblatt md 17:23
And symptoms improve. I mean, it is really stunning and dramatic.

Dr. Deb Muth 17:28
That is amazing, because you’re right, I mean, in something that seems so simple and so inexpensive oftentimes gets dismissed, because we think that it’s not going to do enough, but some of these things that biochemically are happening to people Really need to start being addressed, because the side effects that they’re having with multiple layers of medications is not good for them either.

James greenblatt md 17:52
Yeah, the amount of medications now, because of our kind of ineffective model, is just exploding, so people are taking 3, 4, 5 psychiatric medications to treat a problem that sometimes there might be a simpler solution.

Dr. Deb Muth 18:11
Yeah. Can you share a case example of where an integrative approach really transforms someone’s mental health when medication alone wasn’t working?

James greenblatt md 18:22
Sure, you know, many, but there’s one that I just talked about, A couple nights ago about a gentleman who, you know, traveled around the country seeing integrative doctors, as well as traditional doctors, had a bag full of supplements, because every Doctor put them on a different regimen. And, strong family history of depression and addiction. He struggled with depression and addiction. And, you know, could not get off antidepressants. So, he had a lot of blood work, everything was normal, and the one test that we found in our battery was low levels of essential amino acids.

Dr. Deb Muth 19:08
Wow.

James greenblatt md 19:09
So this was, someone who was eating, you know, organic foods and grass-fed protein, so he was eating the perfect diet.
But he was completely deficient in amino acids. So, again, that inability to digest and absorb, so just by giving this individual hydrochloric acid. Free-form amino acids. He was able to begin to feel better, and eventually we were able to taper him off these medications. So it was just, it wasn’t dietary intake, it was a problem of digestion and absorption.

Dr. Deb Muth 19:50
That is incredible, because I don’t think, even in the functional medicine world, where we’re focused so heavily on gut health, we are not making that correlation that people are not digesting their proteins to make amino acids, to make neurotransmitters. That… that thought process isn’t happening with a lot of functional medicine practitioners either.

James greenblatt md 20:11
No, it hasn’t, and maybe because it’s too simple, you know? It’s not trying to look at 75 markers on organic acid, it’s just…

Dr. Deb Muth 20:21
Yeah.

James greenblatt md 20:21
Looking at, you know, 9 essential amino acids. And usually there’s a pattern. They’re either all low, you know, or normal, or high, and that means something. So, I remember when I first did amino acid testing, it was by mistake. I remember in the 90s, I checked the wrong box in a lab company. And it didn’t make sense to me when I first started doing it, but now it is one of the most important tests that I do for adult depression.

Dr. Deb Muth 20:49
Yeah. How do those amino acids, work with, like, that resistant depression, anxiety. What do they actually do that makes the anxiety and the depression worse?

James greenblatt md 21:02
Well, the essential amino acids, essential meaning our body needs to get them from our diet, are the precursors to every protein in the body, but in psychiatry, they’re the precursors to the neurotransmitters.
So, tryptophan, precursor to serotonin, phenylalanine, the precursor to dopamine and norepinephrine. So if those are deficient.
And we have studies in humans and animals, going back, I think, to the 70s, that we can affect the levels of neurotransmitters in the brain. So low levels of these amino acids affect neurotransmitters. It’s actually a research protocol called tryptophan depletion studies. Where we give people in the lab low levels of tryptophan, and we watch them get irritable, depressed, and angry.

Dr. Deb Muth 21:51
It’s interesting that we’re willing to do that to people, right? But you’ve got to figure it out sometimes. You have to know that what you think is actually working.

James greenblatt md 21:58
Absolutely.

Dr. Deb Muth 22:00
Yeah. How do you guide patients to safely combine their natural approaches with their psychiatric medications?

James greenblatt md 22:09
I think the vast majority of the, the work that we’ve been doing, is all nutritional supplements or interventions that can be done with medications. So it’s not an either-or model when we think of functional psychiatry. It’s just kind of adding tools you know, to the toolbox. There are very few interactions with medications. Sometimes high-dose amino acids we won’t use with certain medications, but all the Vitamins and minerals and gut support that we’re recommending can be utilized with medications.

Dr. Deb Muth 22:49
That’s awesome, because I think there’s a lot of fear around that, right? Like, if I take this, it’ll interfere with that. And some things, yes, they do interfere, but it’s good for people to understand that they can do these things safely, but they need to work with somebody knowledgeable, like yourself, or somebody that has come from one of your training programs that really, truly understands this.

James greenblatt md 23:10
Yeah, absolutely. It’s, it’s an integrative model where individuals can Sometimes it’s just the medications work better. Other times, it’s a path to tapering someone off the medications.

Dr. Deb Muth 23:24
Yeah. For patients or families that are listening, and they’re really feeling frustrated by medication-only solutions, where do you recommend that they start?

James greenblatt md 23:36
Well, I have to say my book. So, you know, the book I just wrote, Finally, Hopeful, is written for patients, and I think the title is the best part of it, you know, Hope. I think as you begin to appreciate the role of nutrition and depression. So, there are some, some good books out there, that, on my website, psychiatryRedefine.org, there’s a list of clinicians, and, in the next month, I’ll be setting up a network of functional psychiatry clinicians, So, around the country that have been trained, so that program is called Finally Living Now, I think, Finally Living Now, so…
People, want the information. Too many of our traditional docs just don’t have the training, so we’ll hopefully be able to provide a network of clinicians who can help.

Dr. Deb Muth 24:30
That’s fantastic, and for those of you who are driving or didn’t catch those links, don’t worry about it. We will have them in the show notes for you, so you can find these people that have been trained and understand what to do to help you. What gives you optimism about the future of psychiatric and mental health care?

James greenblatt md 24:51
Well, the explosion of research is really, have given me some renewed energy at this point in my career, because in the last 5 years. There are just hundreds of incredibly well-written academic articles, references that our traditional researchers have kind of just validated everything that we’ve been saying for 30 years. So we have studies on vitamin D deficiency, and suicide, and zinc deficiency, and suicide, and folate, and the gut. And the most significant for me is, I’ve been talking about lithium orotate.

Dr. Deb Muth 25:34
Print this.

James greenblatt md 25:34
years as a nutritional intervention, probably the most important in my practice, and a study came out of Harvard. This year, Describing lithium orotate, the only lithium preparation that was able to reverse Alzheimer’s pathology in mice models. and prevent it in these models. It was a pretty dramatic study.

Dr. Deb Muth 25:57
Oh.

James greenblatt md 25:58
So… Long-inded answer, but it’s the research now that is just supporting everything we’ve been yelling about for 30 years that just is going to make it much easier to train doctors and nurse practitioners so we can help more patients.

Dr. Deb Muth 26:15
Oh, that’s fantastic. That’s an… I’m going to look up that study, that’s amazing. So, one last question for you is, if someone was listening today, and they’re really struggling with anxiety and depression, and they’re out of answers, what would you tell them to give them hope?

James greenblatt md 26:32
I think that, you know, I’ve been doing this 30 years, and I have colleagues around the globe, and Everyone would kind of just echo that there are some simple interventions, and to try to find either your primary care doctor, or a mental health professional, or a naturopath who will dig deeper and look at some objective tests, and I’m positive that if you’re struggling with depression, that they’ll find something to help you.

Dr. Deb Muth 27:06
That’s awesome. Thank you so much for joining us today. Are there any last thoughts that you want to leave with our listeners?

James greenblatt md 27:13
Well, just to repeat two things I’ve said a couple times is, hope, you know, finally hopeful is the book, and then everyone’s different. And your neighbor might be taking, you know, found out that they had a vitamin B12 deficiency, and that cured their depression. it doesn’t mean you have a B12 deficiency, but there are many. a path towards looking deeper. Everyone’s different, but there is hope.

Dr. Deb Muth 27:44
Thank you so much for joining me today.

James greenblatt md 27:46
Thanks for having me, nice talking with you.

Dr. Deb Muth 27:52
Thank you for joining me today on Let’s Talk Wellness Now and Dr. James Greenblatt for the insightful conversation on integrative psychiatry and the future of mental health.
If you’ve ever felt dismissed, over-medicated, or frustrated by cookie-cutter approaches to mental health, remember, there is always hope. Healing begins when we look deeper at nutrition, environment, biochemistry, and the unique story within every patient. That’s the art and the science Dr. Greenblatt calls us back to. If today’s episode resonated with you.
Share it with someone who needs to hear that mental health illness is not a life sentence. It’s a message from the body, asking to be completely understood. Remember, wellness isn’t just about feeling good, it’s about thriving in every area of your life. If you’re ready to explore how root cause psychiatry or functional medicine can help you or a loved one find hope again, visit DrGreenblatt.com and check out his new book that is just out. Until next time, I’m Dr. Deb, reminding you to take care of your body, mind, and spirit. Be well, and I will see you in our next episode.

The post Episode 263 – Functional and integrative psychiatry: combining nutrition, biochemistry, and lifestyle with mental health care first appeared on Let's Talk Wellness Now.

Dr. Deb Muth 00:03

Welcome to Let's Talk Wellness Now. I am your host, Dr. Deb.

And today, I have the pleasure of meeting with Dr. James Greenblatt. I've known Dr. Greenblatt for a very long time. We, started lecturing together, gosh, over 15 years ago.

And he is an amazing practitioner. Dr. Greenblatt is dual board certified in psychiatry and internationally recognized.

as a pioneer in functional and integrative psychiatry. He's widely regarded as the leading expert on the clinical application of low-dose lithium for mental health.

Dr. Greenblatt has spent more than 30 years advancing precision medicine-based approaches that move beyond symptom management to address the root causes of mental illness.

And after earning his medical degree at George Washington University.

Dr. Greenblatt completed his psychiatry and residency there as a fellow in child and adolescent psychiatry.

Joined John Hopkins Medical School, and he currently serves as an assistant clinical professor of Psychiatry at Tufts University. He is a prolific author. Dr. Greenblatt has written 9 books, including his newest book, Finally Hopeful.

in… available in January of 2026. We can ask him about this today.

And his bestsellers finally focused the breathwork, natural treatment plan for ADHD,

Answers to anorexia, Functional and Integrative Medicine for Antidepressant withdrawal, and nutritional lithium, and Untold tale of Mineral and Transforms Lives, that heals the brain.

He has founded, in 2019, the Psychiatry Redefined, a leading educational platform training clinicians worldwide in functional and integrative psychiatry. He is a sought-after international speaker. Dr. Greenblatt regularly lectures

On nutritional psychiatry and the transformative role of functional medicine.

I am super excited to have him here with us today. This is going to be a pleasure. You guys are going to love this conversation that we are going to have.

And I am going to pick his brain today on functional and integrative psychology and psychiatry, and combining nutrition, biochemistry, and lifestyle with mental health care.

I'm really, really happy to have Dr. Greenblatt with us, so I am going to bring him on, and we are going to have this amazing conversation with my friend.

Welcome back to Let's Talk Wellness Now. I'm your host, Dr. Deb, and I have with me Dr. James Greenblatt, who I have followed for… we were just chatting about this for over 20 years.

He is amazing in what he is doing, and we are going to have this conversation today about integrative psychiatry and the future of mental health. So, welcome to the show, Dr. Greenblatt.

James greenblatt md 03:20

Thank you, Dips, good to be with you.

Dr. Deb Muth 03:22

Now, you've been pioneering this integrative psychiatry for decades. What really inspired you to bridge nutrition and psychiatry long before it's become mainstream?

James greenblatt md 03:35

You know, I developed an interest in college, you know, studying nutrition, and then I remember writing papers on orthomolecular psychiatry, high dose, vitamin B3 for schizophrenia.

So, I really did not think I'd be a psychiatrist. I wanted to be a pediatrician when I went to medical school, but, just early interest in nutrition and brain function.

And it's been my career now for 30-plus years.

Dr. Deb Muth 04:05

Wow. Can you define what integrative psychiatry actually means, and how it's different from traditional psychiatry for most people who wouldn't be familiar with that term?

James greenblatt md 04:17

Sure, I mean, I have to add the word functional as well. I mean, I think, you know, I call myself a functional psychiatrist, but for most of my career, and every book, and everything I did, I would have to use words like functional and integrative.

Medicine for mental illness. And, you know, I define integrative medicine as the… Adjunctive lifestyle, mindfulness.

And diet, sleep, and exercise.

Dr. Deb Muth 04:46

Mmm.

James greenblatt md 04:46

And I kind of use the term functional for kind of a deeper root cause dive, looking at nutritional deficiencies, looking at hormones, looking at genetics. And, you know, to treat patients with mental health challenges, we need both integrative and functional medicine.

Dr. Deb Muth 05:05

That's awesome. You know, in our integrative space, we often kind of joke that there's no such thing as a Prozac deficiency, right? Can you explain to our listeners how nutrient deficiencies, gut health, or inflammation can play a role in mental illness?

James greenblatt md 05:23

Sure, I mean, I think the most important

Beginning of this conversation would be that, you know, 10 people with depression, there might be 10 different underlying factors.

Dr. Deb Muth 05:35

Yeah.

James greenblatt md 05:35

And we do know that there's not an antidepressant deficiency, so we have to look deeper. And… and that's,

just different than our current psychiatry model, where it's just symptomatic-based medicine. Everyone who's depressed.

It's an antidepressant.

And by looking at functional integrative medicine, we're looking at B12 and vitamin D and zinc and magnesium. We're looking at hormones, we're looking at the gut, and we're trying to determine what might be either causing or contributing to that person's depression.

Dr. Deb Muth 06:10

Is there a particular,

flavor that you see more commonly with others, like depression versus anxiety versus bipolar. Is there a particular underlying factor that you see more commonly than others?

James greenblatt md 06:27

Well, the short answer is no, and that's why this work takes time, because you have to think.

You know, every patient that walks in the office is different. I mean, I think the overarching umbrella is nutritional deficiencies, you know, whether… regardless of weight, regardless of diet. I mean, I have people coming in who've been eating…

You know, these ketogenic or paleo diets, you know, perfect organic foods, and are profoundly nutritionally deficient.

So I think nutritional deficiencies would be number one, and then, you know, the whole host of, you know, infections and hormone problems and inflammatory issues related to celiac disease is really common in the mental health space that's ignored.

Dr. Deb Muth 07:14

Yeah. Celiac disease is really not paid attention too much, other than thinking that it's damaging the gut. They don't really think about all the other aspects of the body that are being affected by the gut not being able to absorb the nutrients properly and then utilize them properly. It's really sad.

James greenblatt md 07:34

we find out… and there's research to support it. That's the tragedy. This is not something, as clinicians, that we found. We have many, many years of research showing high rates of anxiety and depression,

you know, amongst those with, celiac disorder because of this chronic malnutrition, and many patients present without any GI symptoms, just mental health complaints, but nobody's looking at celiac.

Dr. Deb Muth 08:02

Yeah. You know, I'm sure there's people that are listening to us thinking, there's no way that

Everybody who's depressed or anxious has a nutritional deficiency. When we're… live in a country where there's so much abundance of food, and the obesity rates are high, and most people are very plump, how could those people be deficient in nutrients? What do you say to people who think like that?

James greenblatt md 08:28

Yeah, I mean, I think that, you know, we have,

what's called high caloric malnutrition, so regardless of weight,

I would say the vast majority of patients with a mental health issue

I would say my best guess would be 90-plus percent.

Dr. Deb Muth 08:47

Wow.

James greenblatt md 08:47

We would find nutritional deficiencies.

Dr. Deb Muth 08:51

And part of this, we've discovered, is genetics.

James greenblatt md 08:56

People having, kind of, genetic needs for Higher amounts of certain micronutrients.

Some of it is just the kinds of foods people are eating. The kind of ultra-processed food actually strips the body of micronutrients.

So, it is just so common, and many of these tests are pretty simple that your primary care doctor could do in the office.

Dr. Deb Muth 09:22

So, traditional labs can identify some of these nutritional deficiencies. They don't necessarily have to invest thousands of dollars in advanced nutrient testing to find these things out.

James greenblatt md 09:35

Absolutely. I mean, I think, you know, oftentimes when we're working with a patient who has failed traditional psychiatric treatment, we do need some functional, testing, but

I'm quite convinced we could change the trajectory of our mental health epidemic in this country by some labs that are covered by every insurance company on the planet. Like, people think of vitamin D as, you know, building bones or immune function.

It has dramatic relationships to mental health problems, demonstrated over 30 years of research. So vitamin D and B12 and folate, all simple blood tests that are covered by all health insurances.

Dr. Deb Muth 10:18

You know, with the change of genetics, MTHFR is so popularly known these days. It's probably the most popular genetic mutation that people know of.

And in the mental health space, it plays a significant role as well in that absorption of B12 and folat

Dr. Deb Muth 0:03
What are the answers to your child’s chronic allergies, ADHD, or autism?
weren’t just in another prescription, but in restoring balance to their body chemistry. Today’s guest has spent nearly two decades uncovering those answers through integrative and biomedical medicine. That’s a mouthful, isn’t it?
Helping children heal when nothing else seemed to work.
This is the conversation about science, compassion, and changing the future of pediatric care.
Welcome back to Let’s Talk Wellness Now.

The show where we uncover the root causes of chronic illness, explore regenerative breakthroughs, and empower you with the practical tools to heal. I’m your host, Dr. Deb, your medical detective, and today’s episode is one every patient should hear.
My guest is Dr. Anu Usman Singh, Medical Director of True Health Medical Center in Naperville, Illinois, and the owner of Pure Compounding Pharmacy.
And for over 17 years, she has been pioneering evidence-based integrative interventions for children with ADD, autism, allergies, and complex gastrointestinal and metabolic disorders.

She’s not only a practicing physician, she’s a researcher who’s investigated copper-zinc imbalances.
metallonine dysfunction, biofilm-related infections, vitamin D in pregnancy, and hyperbaric oxygen therapy.
Dr. Usman serves on the executive board of TACA, and is a faculty member at MAPS, training other practitioners in pediatric integrative care. So get ready for a conversation that will open your mind and heart to the possibilities of when medicine truly becomes holistic.
If you guys can insert the ad in here, that’d be great.
Well, welcome back. I’m so excited to have Dr. Usman with me today. I have known her for, oh my gosh, 15, 17 years, something like that. We’re aging ourselves.

Anju 02:32
Oh, yeah, when we were in our 20s, right?

Dr. Deb Muth 02:35
Yes, exactly. So, welcome back, and I am so excited for you to be here, because you have literally helped thousands of families over the years.
But I’d love for you to share a little bit about your journey, kind of who you are, what drew you into exploring integrative and biomedical approaches for helping children and families.

Anju 02:58
I think my journey is similar to a lot of you out there, the audience. I mean, we’re looking to help our families, and our kids, and ourselves, and I was doing my residency at Cook County Hospital, downtown Chicago, in the 80s.
And I thought, oh my goodness, if I could take care of the sickest patients, then I can take care of anybody. So I came from Indiana, and I went to Cook County, and my children, my eldest daughter, started having, severe allergies and asthma, really, really at a young age.
And I went to, like, my residence, and I went to my attendings, and I said, this baby is wheezing. And they told me, babies don’t have asthma.
And I said, she has all the symptoms of asthma. She has asthma.

And I remember with, in her crib, I would just nebulize her, you know, and I was like, what is going on?
And I figured out that she had a lot of food allergies, and I was nursing her, eating the foods that she was allergic to, and back then, in the 80s, you know, we didn’t have the internet, we didn’t have Whole Foods, and I just…
being a doctor, and I didn’t even know what to do, and I felt so hopeless. And I thought, gosh, you know, I’m a doctor, I have these, like, skills, I have… people I can talk to, and I still feel so… it’s so difficult. And then this… my particular daughter, the oldest one, her name is Priya, and she developed severe, asthma, and I couldn’t figure it out. She was in junior high. Every time she would walk into the lunchroom, she would have a severe asthma attack.
And I’ll be like, what’s going on? What’s going on? I kept her home over the weekend, she was better. I sent her back to school, she was bad again.
And we figured it out that it was other people eating peanuts.

Dr. Deb Muth 04:54
Severe peanut allergy.

Anju 04:56
And I went to the school, and I said, she…
can you, like, put her somewhere else? Can… they said, oh, no, that’s not fair to other kids and their food. And this was in the 90s.

Dr. Deb Muth 05:10
Yeah.

Anju 05:10
And so, I just…
You know, my heart goes out to families who are struggling to find answers for their kids, and my daughter Priya, the one I told you about, she ended up passing away from a peanut allergy.
And so, I’ve just…

Dr. Deb Muth 05:26
Yeah.

Anju 05:27
My heart goes out to parents and my own kids and their illnesses.
And so I just started working with families, with kids, and
It just kind of grew from there.

Dr. Deb Muth 05:40
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, and I think being a mom who went through that yourself, and…
was seen but not heard, and turned away from the traditional medical community, you’re forced to start finding answers on your own. And we always feel like we’re on an island by ourselves in the medical world when we’re doing that.

Anju 06:01
Yeah, I, it was really hard when I found out, you know, about…
Integrative medicine, and just different…
ideas and approaches to diet and supplements, I thought, how come I wasn’t trained in any of this?
And…

Dr. Deb Muth 06:21
So angry when I learned some of the things that I learned in the beginning. I was like, same thing, like, how did they not teach us this? And then I think, you know, it’s my fault, was I asleep, was I not paying attention, whatever. And then you just realize, like, there’s this whole part of the human body.
That they just didn’t teach us.

Anju 06:42
Yeah, so then I… I, probably like you, we had to learn it on our own. There weren’t, like, classes or any way to learn this stuff
And I just reached out. There’s a clinic that,
I don’t know if you’ve heard of the Pfeiffer Treatment Center?

Dr. Deb Muth 07:00
No.

Anju 07:01
Do you know Carl Pfeiffer from the attendees.
He has a clinic called the Pfeiffer Treatment Center in New Jersey. It was called the Princeton Brain Bio Center.

Dr. Deb Muth 07:12
And in the 70s, they did orthomolecular medicine for patients with ADD.

Anju 07:18
And schizophrenia.

Dr. Deb Muth 07:20
Mmm…

Anju 07:21
and depression.
And they used to categorize them in 3 categories, and at the time, they called them histopenics, histidelics, and pyrolurics.

Dr. Deb Muth 07:31
Okay.

Anju 07:32
Histapenix were low histamine patients.
Delix were high histamine patients, and pyrolurics were their own kind of category. We added another category of copper-zinc imbalances, and then we would categorize that population into high histamine, low histamine, pyrolurics, and copper-zinc.
Now we talk about under-methylation, over-methylation. Sure. So, under-methylation is the, you know, the high histamine people, they can’t clear the histamine. And the over-methylators are, you know, what we call about low histamine now.
And, and then pyrolurics and copper zinc. So…
I lost my train of thought, but in the 80s, when I was going through this, in the 90s, I reached out to the Pfeiffer Treatment Center.
He’s like, can I calm and just hang out and, like, see what you guys do? Because I need some answers.
And I started working there and, started doing research on copper-zinc imbalances, and I did it in children with autism.
And that’s how people started coming to me, and I kinda got, like. not famous, but I, you know, the word spread about, okay, we could talk about it, and Dr.
Walsh was the, you know, PhD there that did a lot of the research, so we worked together for 8 years.

Dr. Deb Muth 09:05
Isn’t it crazy to think that we knew about histamine issues way back in the 70s? You know, I got the pleasure of being trained by, environmental medicine doctors. Dr. Wayne Konetsky and Glenn Toth taught me about environmental medicine, and what we called histamine issues that we call it today, mast cell, right? But when I was learning in the early 2000s, it was labeled as chemical sensitivity. And so it was just people that would react to everything, and we really didn’t know why, and they didn’t necessarily have this very specific allergic reaction, but we knew they were reacting, and we would try to treat them, to lower the histamine way back then. And it’s taken all these years, 25 years, to get to a point where we understand mast cell activation now, and histamine issues.
And it’s really sad to me that it’s taking this long for us to identify things.
And we’ve all got our journey, and I loved back in those days, too, because as I learned, I would call people up and say, hey, I just got a patient from you, and they told me this great story, and I have other people, can I come see what you were doing? And back then, everybody was very open. They were like, yes, please, come, learn. Now everybody’s like, oh, we can’t teach you, we can’t give you our secrets, but…
Or pay me $20,000 to come learn with me. But back then, I mean, everybody was just… we were all in the same boat. We were all just trying to learn from each other.

Anju 10:36
Oh, yeah, oh yeah, and any bit of knowledge you got, you’re like…

Dr. Deb Muth 10:41
Yes.

Anju 10:41
God, you know, I learned this piece, and…

Dr. Deb Muth 10:43
Hmm?

Anju 10:44
We just kind of built from that. I keep thinking about back then, you know,
the under-methylators, over-methylators, copper, zinc, and then I learned about metals.
And then, as a physician, I was like, oh, okay, well, there’s mercury in vaccines, there’s aluminum in vaccines, and now I’m seeing these high levels.

Dr. Deb Muth 11:04
In my patients, now what happens?

Anju 11:07
And then we started, kind of, trying to get the word out about those things.

Dr. Deb Muth 11:13
Yeah.

Anju 11:13
And in 2000, a lot of the people that I knew put out a paper about, you know, mercury.

Dr. Deb Muth 11:22
And then…

Anju 11:22
And we all got on the Mercury bandwagon.

Dr. Deb Muth 11:25
Yes.

Anju 11:26
And did that for a while, and then we started learning about other things, like mitochondrial issues in chronically ill people, and these chronic infections, like Lyme disease, and so… and then now, you know, understanding mast cell activation, cell danger response.

Dr. Deb Muth 11:44
On endocrine, and adrenals, and hormones, and…

Anju 11:48
Yeah.

Dr. Deb Muth 11:49
biofilms.

Anju 11:50
Biofilms, I started talking about that in 2007.

Dr. Deb Muth 11:54
And so then…

Anju 11:56
It just… it just kind of keeps adding, and keeps adding, and keeps adding, and it’s like…
Sometimes you think, how come I didn’t know about this back then? But I feel like it’s a process.

Dr. Deb Muth 12:06
It definitely is a process, and it’s amazing to see
how many people are researching different things, and they’re all, like, putting a piece of the puzzle together. And I think this is really important for our listeners to understand, is when you see a practitioner and they don’t have all the answers, this is why. It’s very complicated, it’s not black and white. And I’ve had patients over the years say to me, well, why didn’t you say this to me 6 months ago? And the truth of the matter was, I didn’t know
about it 6 months ago. Like, all of this stuff is just… it’s evolving constantly, and when you’re a practitioner like Dr. Usman and myself, you are learning every single day. Our training has never stopped from the day we stepped into integrated medicine, and you just… you keep learning new things, and sharing new things, and talking to new people, and that’s what expands our knowledge base.

Anju 12:57
Yeah, the more I learn, the less I feel like I know.

Dr. Deb Muth 13:01
Yes, me too. Every time I go to a conference, I’m like, how did I not know this? How am I stupid? And I know we shouldn’t say that word and call ourselves that, but sometimes you feel like that. It’s like, how did I not know?

Anju 13:14
Or you’ll see a patient, and you’ll look at them, and you’re like, how come I didn’t realize this about this particular patient?

Dr. Deb Muth 13:20
Yes.

Anju 13:21
Yeah, they present differently, see things differently. I think that’s why it’s good to find a doctor that you trust and that you can work with, because it’s evolving.

Dr. Deb Muth 13:31
Yes. And, you know, we have those patients that they come, and I get those. I call myself, like, a tertiary care center.

Anju 13:38
You know, you get those patients that have been everywhere, and seen every doctor, and then they’re like, you’re my last hope, you’re gonna solve all my problems, and…
I say to them. We’re a team, like, we’re gonna solve these together, but it takes time for me to unravel this puzzle.

Dr. Deb Muth 13:54
Excuse me?

Anju 13:54
And it… and sometimes, you know, there’s a few hits and misses along the way.

Dr. Deb Muth 14:00
Yup, but if.

Anju 14:00
If we keep at it, you know, we also say it’s a marathon, not a sprint. Yes. You know, if we keep at it, we can kind of figure it out together.

Dr. Deb Muth 14:09
Yeah, and a partnership, for sure, because without the feedback of the person you’re working with.
understanding, like, we do this, and this happens to you, it’s very complicated as a practitioner to then be able to figure out, what do we do next? I see more and more clients these days, they come in and they just want to ask me within the first 5 minutes of, what am I changing? And I’m like, I have no clue yet. Like, you have to tell me what’s happened since the last time we did something, and then we have to look at labs, and we have to look at this, and we… it’s a synopsis.
that we have to look at. You know, it’s not that black and white for us to be able to put the pieces together for them.

Anju 14:47
I think my most successful patients are the ones who are able to communicate with me.
Their ups and downs. Yeah. And they also use their own intuition. Help me guide them.

Dr. Deb Muth 15:06
Yeah.

Anju 15:07
So, there are some people that they just hear, you do it, and you tell me.
There are people who try to tell me everything.

Dr. Deb Muth 15:15
Okay.

Anju 15:15
Say, I want you to do this, do this, do this.

Dr. Deb Muth 15:17
Yeah, so I was like, okay.

Anju 15:19
I can do those things, but, you know, like.

Dr. Deb Muth 15:21
Yep.

Anju 15:22
think about blah blah. But, like, this… that collaboration.
and, intuition. I kind of feel like even though
I’ve trained allopathically as a traditional medical doctor. I feel like as I learn, I learn that being open and,
Letting go of fear.

Dr. Deb Muth 15:46
Yeah.

Anju 15:47
And, not trying to jump on every, like, new thing, and being.

Dr. Deb Muth 15:53
consistent.

Anju 15:54
and diligent. really helps.

Dr. Deb Muth 15:58
It helps a ton. We see that, too, you know, the latest…
Instagram influencer that’s talking about the latest topic, and all of a sudden, everybody sees themselves in there, and they must have that, but not realizing putting those connections together. It’s like when MTHFR came out, right? We were all so excited that this was going to be the detox gene.
And then we learned so much more about genes, and now MTHFR is very popular again, and everyone’s talking about it, but they don’t understand how some of those other genetics fit together. And if you don’t understand that, we’ve all done it, we’ve all made people worse instead of better, sometimes when we’ve given too many methyl groups together, or this supplement without this support before we knew that there was another gene that we had to support for that.
And I think it’s really important for people that are listening to us today talk about this, is don’t just jump on the bandwagon. Like, you really want to work with somebody seasoned who understands how all these pieces fit together.

Anju 16:57
Yeah, and I think that’s what individualized medicine is about.
And there is no magic here, a magic bullet.
I think that example of MTHFR is really good. Now, President Trump talked about Leukovorin.

Dr. Deb Muth 17:14
Yes.

Anju 17:15
in, and, you know, he’ll get up and say something like, leukovorin cures autism.
And then the rest of us are like…
Did you just say that?

Dr. Deb Muth 17:26
Yep, he did.

Anju 17:30
It’s folinic acid, it’s calcium folinic acid, it’s been around a long time. We’ve been using it for 20 years.

Dr. Deb Muth 17:37
Yeah.

Anju 17:38
But it does help a subset of people who potentially have what we call cerebral folate deficiency.
And some of those people are misdiagnosed as autism.

Dr. Deb Muth 17:50
Yeah.

Anju 17:51
So, are you treating autism, or are you treating cerebral folate deficiency?
same thing I could say about… I have a lot of cases of kids who recovered from autism.
and severe ADHD using chelation type of.

Dr. Deb Muth 18:06
up.

Anju 18:06
Approaches, or detox approaches.
again, did we treat their ADD and their autism, or did we treat their lead…
Toxicity or lead burden, and their symptoms of those things got better.

Dr. Deb Muth 18:20
Yeah.

Anju 18:20
So, like, to put a big, like, a label like, oh, ADD on something, or autism on something, I think it does a disservice
To the individuals, because it’s such a broad issue.

Dr. Deb Muth 18:35
It is, and I think the diagnosis has gotten to be much more popular these days.
And yes, thank goodness we’re getting better diagnostics, but sometimes we’re getting over-diagnosis, or like you said, it may look like one thing, but it could be something else, but because it looks like autism, they’re going to get labeled with autism.
And in some respects, that’s good, they can get more services that way, but sometimes we’re missing the actual picture of it. Can you talk a little bit about how autism is different than the cerebral folate deficiency?

Anju 19:11
Yeah, so there are some people that make an antibody to their folate receptor.

Dr. Deb Muth 19:18
Hmm.

Anju 19:20
So, to get folic acid into your cells, there’s a receptor on your cells.

Dr. Deb Muth 19:25
And then the folate has to bind to it, and then it lets it enter into the cells.

Anju 19:30
And there’s these receptors that allow folic acid to get into your brain.
Now, you and I know when you put folate in your brain.
On one end of the folate cycle, you help make more neurotransmitters. You’ll make something called BH4, and that’ll help make serotonin and dopamine, and then norepinephrine and epinephrine. So folate is really important for making your neurotransmitters, folate and B12.
On the other end, it’s like, another cycle on the other end of folate is our methylation cycle.
And methylation is so important for our RNA and our DNA, and making choline, phosphatoly choline, and making creatine for speech.
And helping us with all the precursors for detoxification.
So without folate in our brain, we can’t make our neurotransmitters efficiently, we can’t break them down efficiently, and we can’t detox our brain.
Imagine what that will do to your brain.

Dr. Deb Muth 20:36
Yeah,

Anju 20:37
And you will see symptoms like speech delays, cognitive delays, processing issues, poor attention.
All of those things. Excitation, anxiety.
All of those, and so if the folate isn’t getting into the brain efficiently, then we’ll have all these symptoms, and we’ll end up with diagnoses like these.

Dr. Deb Muth 20:59
Yeah, so is there a way that people who are listening to this can request a test to see if they make this antibody to folate, or is it more of a diagnosis of exclusion?

Anju 21:14
That’s a great question. When I first started doing this, like, 20 years ago, there was, like, a university that was doing this.
studies, and it was Dr. Quadros. He was the guy, and we would take samples and send them to his lab, and he would tell us about these blocking and binding.

Dr. Deb Muth 21:30
folate antibodies.

Anju 21:32
And if patients had positive blocking or binding folate antibodies, we would follow his protocol. And he’s done papers on patients with severe autism.
Where he found these folate antibodies, and then did spinal taps on the kids, and they were associated with this cerebral folate deficiency. the cerebral… spinal fluid.
And in his papers, he gave .5 to 2 milligrams per kilogram of calcium folinic acid, which is leukovorin. It’s a vitamin. And over a 6-month to a 12-month period.
The majority of those patients improved drastically.
Some of them regained speech, and some of them lost their autism diagnosis.

Dr. Deb Muth 22:26
Because they never truly had autism.

Anju 22:29
Well, they have autism symptoms, and that’s what autism is, but we call it autisms.

Dr. Deb Muth 22:36
Yeah.

Anju 22:37
And so now, like, we need the research to categorize these people. You know, what percentage of autism is cerebral folate deficiency? Yeah. What percentage of autism is, heavy metal.

Dr. Deb Muth 22:51
Bourbon.

Anju 22:52
And what percentage of autism is Clostridia overgrowth, or…

Dr. Deb Muth 22:57
Hmm.

Anju 22:57
microbiome… Dysfunction, and then there’s overlap.

Dr. Deb Muth 23:01
Right, yeah, Lyme and mold and viruses.

Anju 23:04
and infections, and you can see…

Dr. Deb Muth 23:07
injury from medications and things like that that happen, or birth traumas. Yeah, I mean, it’s not… it’s not as simple as what people think autism is.
Why do you think that we’re seeing so much more autism today than when you and I were kids? We didn’t see this that often. I know environment has a lot to do with it, but do you have a couple of things that you suspect are contributing to the rise of autism these days?

Anju 23:38
Yeah, I mean, that’s a million dollar question.

Dr. Deb Muth 23:40
Right.

Anju 23:41
And, just because I work with children, you know it’s not just autism that’s epidemic, and yeah.

Dr. Deb Muth 23:49
You know that. I mean, it’s… it’s probably… if you add all the epidemics that are happening to children.

Anju 23:54
Autism still supersedes it.
Now it’s 1 in 33s, 1 in 35 boys, I mean, it’s…
children. It’s really sad. When I was in med school, it was 1 in 10,000.

Dr. Deb Muth 24:10
That’s crazy.

Anju 24:11
What’s causing it? I mean, obviously it’s multifactorial.

Dr. Deb Muth 24:15
Yeah, 80,000 chemicals in the environment that we never had before.

Anju 24:20
I, I, I, look, I’ve… 219 million.

Dr. Deb Muth 24:26
Oh my gosh.

Anju 24:27
I looked it up today.

Dr. Deb Muth 24:29
119 million different chemicals in the environment. Wow.

Anju 24:33
We don’t know how many of those are super toxic.

Dr. Deb Muth 24:36
Yeah, and we don’t know what they do together.

Anju 24:38
A lot of them were, like, before, like, grandfathered in and all of that.
Yeah, it’s really crazy about the chemicals. So, chemicals… I kind of… feel like…
you know, this burden of all this, it’s not just on our children, it’s on our mothers.

Dr. Deb Muth 24:56
Yes.

Anju 24:56
oh my gosh, the moms of these children that… And they don’t even realize it, you know, we’re just so happy to be pregnant and have a kid.
So I think it really, really starts with that piece. Care, good prenatal care, yeah. Yeah, and not just what we think is prenatal care, taking your prenatal vitamins.

Dr. Deb Muth 25:18
Yes.

Anju 25:19
And going to your gynecologist, but what you and I think is prenatal care, you know, before you get pregnant, let’s detox, let’s clean up our diet, let’s get rid of those chemicals, let’s make sure we’re not in a moldy environment.
You know, let’s do our due diligence, clean air, clean water, clean food, sunshine. When I did my residency at county, I don’t think I saw the sun for 3 years.

Dr. Deb Muth 25:44
How?
Yeah.

Anju 25:46
it’s just that intense, and I was pregnant twice, and my eldest has
the allergies and asthma. Number 2 is type 1 diabetes and mold sensitivities and allergies and asthma. Number 3 has severe chemical sensitivities, mast cell activation,
Hormonal issues.

Dr. Deb Muth 26:09
Yeah.

Anju 26:09
And… number 4 is my… Golden, baby.

Dr. Deb Muth 26:15
And those three, you know, those years that you’re there, and you’re not seeing the sunlight, there’s vitamin D deficiency, and we don’t talk about vitamin D that much during pregnancy.
I still am appalled that we’re giving folic acid these days during pregnancy instead of folate, but…

Anju 26:36
Folenic, or methylfolate?

Dr. Deb Muth 26:38
Yeah, nothing. So, when, when you,
discovered vitamin D in pregnancy, and it’s linked to neurodevelopment outcomes. How did you stumble across that?

Anju 26:50
Well, in… when I started working on Copper Zinc, Dr. Walsh and I would go to the, like, DAN conferences.
Yeah. At the time, and it was interesting, because DAM conferences were a collaboration between parents.
And practitioners, and researchers.

Dr. Deb Muth 27:10
Very unique for.

Anju 27:11
That’s how that new IACC committee is. It’s a collaboration of parents.

Dr. Deb Muth 27:17
Hmm.

Anju 27:18
Practitioners, researchers, And individuals with autism.

Dr. Deb Muth 27:25
Yeah, so for those of you who are listening to us, it’s… we’re talking about the Interagency Autism Coordinating Committee that Bobby Kennedy just put together. It’s called IACC, and they are on a mission to try to do the research to figure out what’s causing autism.

Anju 27:43
Yeah, and not just causing it, like, these people have been living it, most of the people on that committee have been living it, and their whole lives, for some of them.
And being able to bring forward
like the question about vitamin D, we started seeing a lot of patients in Minnesota.

Dr. Deb Muth 28:04
Mmm.

Anju 28:05
who were from Somalia.

Dr. Deb Muth 28:08
Okay.

Anju 28:09
Who were… it was, like, 1 in 4 families with kids with autism.
And the theory was that the vitamin D levels that they get in Somalia versus the vitamin D levels that the moms get in Minnesota.

Dr. Deb Muth 28:27
Hmm?

Anju 28:28
Affected the immune system.

Dr. Deb Muth 28:31
Yeah.

Anju 28:32
predispose them. So there’s a few papers on that.

Dr. Deb Muth 28:36
Yeah, that’s a… I mean, it would be a very significant difference, and when you’re thinking about genetically, like, what their culture, who they are as a species.
was used to and adapted to with the sunlight and different things from a different region, geographical region, and then they moved to a new geographical region, that can take decades before the body adapts and readjusts.
to that new environment. We don’t think about those things in…
traditional medicine, and conventional medicine, as most people know it, but we do in functional medicine.

Anju 29:14
Yeah, so again, the clinicians were bringing this up, like, why am I seeing so many families?

Dr. Deb Muth 29:18
Yeah.

Anju 29:18
Then let me go to the… and then in the think tank, the vitamin D researcher said it’s vitamin D.

Dr. Deb Muth 29:24
Yeah.

Anju 29:25
And then they started researching it, and it was almost like a backwards… backwards.

Dr. Deb Muth 29:31
Thank you. You know, they didn’t first…

Anju 29:33
Think it.

Dr. Deb Muth 29:34
Think about it, yeah.

Anju 29:35
Until you start seeing… and that’s why I think that, like.
clinicians like you and me, who are… I consider us on the front lines. We’re the front lines. We are seeing… we’re seeing this epidemic unfold.

Dr. Deb Muth 29:46
Yes.

Anju 29:47
front of our eyes, we’re seeing, like, the gut issues and the severe inflammation. We’re seeing the autoimmunity, and now they have to study it.

Dr. Deb Muth 29:57
Yeah.

Anju 29:57
They have to study this. They really, really, we really need, we really need protocols, we need tools, we need things that you and I have been figuring out anecdotally with our colleagues over the years, and, oh, how do we treat yeast? How do we treat Lyme? How do we treat metal burden?
For this podcast today, I wanted to talk about low-level lead exposure, because for me.
1 in 3 children have a lead level, above 5. 1 and 3.

Dr. Deb Muth 30:31
Yeah, that’s very high.

Anju 30:33
800 million children.

Dr. Deb Muth 30:36
And let’s clarify this, because the first thing people are going to think of is, what are they eating? They’re not eating lead paint to get this. That is not what’s happening here. They are getting lead from someplace else, and their bodies are not able to detox this.

Anju 30:53
And the reason I’m bringing this up is because when I was in residency at County in the 90s, I ran a… I worked at a lead clinic.

Dr. Deb Muth 31:01
And back then.

Anju 31:03
When we looked… we just diagnosed lead toxicity, the level was 60.

Dr. Deb Muth 31:10
Their level had to be 60 to diagnose them.

Anju 31:13
Correct.

Dr. Deb Muth 31:13
Oh my gosh.

Anju 31:14
And that’s when we would treat.
And back then, there was a study, it’s called the TLC study, where they used DMSA, which is a drug to lower lead.
And our goal was to get it from 60 to 20.

Dr. Deb Muth 31:33
And was the normal range the same back then as it is today?

Anju 31:37
The normal range has gone from 60 to 40 to 20 to 10 to 5 to 3.5.
But you and I know I’m the normal range.

Dr. Deb Muth 31:47
Yes.

Anju 31:47
Zero.

Dr. Deb Muth 31:48
Zero.

Anju 31:50
So… so again, in my… in the lead clinic, we were given DMSA, and we got the lead from 60 to 20, and the number one thing was to get rid of the lead in the environment.

Dr. Deb Muth 32:02
Yeah.

Anju 32:03
But we haven’t evolved since then.
Because in that study, It did not improve cognitive abilities. So if you think about what lead does, it causes attention issues, slow processing, it affects hearing, it can cause hyperactivity, it can cause impulsivity, it can cause aggression, it can cause constipation, it can cause hypotonia.
So if you think about all these kids with ADD and autism, how many of them have low-level lead exposure from the lead pipes? In Chicago, it’s a big, a big problem.

Dr. Deb Muth 32:37
Yeah, Milwaukee.

Anju 32:38
Everybody thinks Flint, Michigan, but Flint, Michigan is not the only place.

Dr. Deb Muth 32:42
Right. Our infrastructure is so terrible, it has not been updated, and even though you might look in your house and you might see a white PVC or plastic pipe, what’s coming under the ground to the house in the cities is usually still lead.

Anju 32:58
Right. Right.

Dr. Deb Muth 33:00
Yeah.

Anju 33:01
So, I guess the point is, is that…
the… the idea of, like, studying this. So, again, they study this, and they say, well, we’re not going to treat low-level lead exposure because it doesn’t improve their cognition.
But did they really treat it?

Dr. Deb Muth 33:18
Right. We got it from 60… we got it from 60 to 20. Right. But when I know, where is the lead hiding?

Anju 33:24
So high. Look at the bones, it’s gonna be coming out. It’s gonna be coming out, especially during puberty. What happens to some of our kids during puberty? They just go a little wonky. Comes out again during menopause.

Dr. Deb Muth 33:38
Yes.

Anju 33:39
I don’t know, male menopause, too. Like, we’re all losing bone mass then, and our lead is coming out, our blood pressure goes up. So, again, these are some of the areas that I think, like, really need some… hard… looks.

Dr. Deb Muth 33:53
Right, yeah. So, what are you hopeful about this committee? Like, are you hopeful that this committee is going to be able to research some of these big things, and we’re really going to be able to find answers around some of the functional things and the biochemical things that we see, you and I know happen in the body, that might give some standardization and education to practitioners in the future.

Anju 34:23
Well, I think this committee understands the scope of the issues.
And they’re coming from different perspectives, like I mentioned, research.

Dr. Deb Muth 34:33
Yeah.

Anju 34:35
really highly qualified MDs. MDs like you and me, who have been on the front lines. moms.

Dr. Deb Muth 34:43
Yeah.

Anju 34:44
dads, patience, And so, the strategy would be to get, again, their input, and then…
get the places… people in places to do their research. And even make some guidelines and some, like, you know, thoughts about what we want to put out there.

Dr. Deb Muth 35:05
Yeah.

Anju 35:05
You know, how do we want to strategize for…

Dr. Deb Muth 35:08
Prevention.

Anju 35:10
Like, the pre-pregnancy thing.

Dr. Deb Muth 35:12
Yeah, I’m really hopeful that this doesn’t become a… political football,
And it doesn’t get taken away if the administration changes or whatever, because people need to understand that this kind of research
this is going to take decades for people to do. Granted, we have AI, and AI can help a little bit and get some things quicker.
But trying to figure out all of these nuances to why the body does what it does is not gonna be, like, next week we’re gonna find out that this was the single cause, and I know a lot of people, they’re afraid of the vaccines, and that’s gonna be the sole answer.
And that has a piece of it, but it is just a small piece of it for some people larger, but at the end of the day, that’s not what this is about. This isn’t about just labeling one thing that is the cause of autism, because it is not one thing. It is so multifactorial.

Anju 36:09
And I think that whole cause, I know,
A lot of money has gone into.

Dr. Deb Muth 36:16
Yeah.

Anju 36:16
looking at that. They’re looking for the gene, right? The gene that causes it, and…

Dr. Deb Muth 36:23
answer.

Anju 36:24
They have not… they’ve spent millions of dollars looking for this.
And it’s not gonna pan out. It’s not.

Dr. Deb Muth 36:33
I’m not.

Anju 36:34
pan out. It’s more complex, like we’re talking about.

Dr. Deb Muth 36:38
Yeah.

Anju 36:38
And, I do think that sometimes, you know.
Even though, like, politically, it seems like it’s a political topic, but it has zero to do with politics.

Dr. Deb Muth 36:52
Yeah, exactly. This is our children. This is the future of our country, the world. I mean, America’s not the only place that has kids with autism. I mean, this is the future of humanity. If we don’t figure out what’s injuring our children, there will not be a humanity that you and I have seen. It will be different. And, and this is important, we owe it to the future of our generations, we owe it to our children to figure this out and clean up our environment, and make it safe for everybody.

Anju 37:24
Yeah. Clean up our air, clean up our water, clean up our food…

Dr. Deb Muth 37:29
Yeah.

Anju 37:30
You know, our lifestyle a little bit, but…

Dr. Deb Muth 37:32
hoodie?

Anju 37:33
It’s… it’s… it’s everywhere. I travel all over.

Dr. Deb Muth 37:36
Bye.

Anju 37:37
Consult with doctors in different countries, in Italy, in India, Bulgaria, Romania…

Dr. Deb Muth 37:46
Yeah. And.

Anju 37:48
we’re going to Australia for med maps to treat doctors in, in April. And it’s a problem everywhere.

Dr. Deb Muth 38:00
Yeah.

Anju 38:01
really big problem, and it affects everybody. Even if you don’t have a child with autism or a grandchild with autism, it’s still affecting families, because
I kind of think of ADD as being on the spectrum, in the sense that
I think the same kind of positive issues that lead to the autism are causing the ADD, just to… you know, your genetics are playing a little bit of a different role, whatever… whatever protection you have is a bit more there, but we’re seeing kind of, like, similar metabolic… issues in our ADD population.

Dr. Deb Muth 38:43
Yeah. Yeah, there’s so many different levels of this, and it does affect everyone. Like, I think everybody knows… a family or someone in their classroom or their school or their community that’s affected by, definitely, ADHD, Asperger’s, autism, all of those things, whether you’re high functioning or not functioning or whatever.
everything is affected. The school system is affected, your social circles are affected, your families are affected.
the healthcare is affected. I mean, everything is affected. We owe it to our families and our communities to help people try to figure this out.

Anju 39:22
Yeah, and I think even if it’s not ADD, or ADHD, or autism we’re talking about, or even OCD, anxiety, depression, I mean, you know…

Dr. Deb Muth 39:33
Candace?

Anju 39:34
Any kind of chronic illness that people are dealing with has underpinnings of these kinds of, you know, issues.

Dr. Deb Muth 39:43
Yeah.

Anju 39:44
Any autoimmune issue? That’s great.

Dr. Deb Muth 39:48
inflammatory syndrome that we’re seeing these days, I mean, the pants-pandas piece, the biofilms, the strep, I mean, our environment is just so laden with infections and biofilms, and And, you know, when you and I first were learning about this, we never thought anything could cross the blood-brain barrier, right? It was pristine, there’s nothing getting in there unless you could drive it in there, and now we know that’s different, and now we’re seeing bugs in the brains of people who have had Alzheimer’s disease and dementia because they’ve donated their brains for research, and we can see what’s crossing the blood-brain barrier, and it’s really scary.

Anju 40:24
Yeah, yeah. There’s a lot of things we don’t know. Remember when we just found out that they… the brain had a lymphatic system?

Dr. Deb Muth 40:33
And that wasn’t About, what, 5, 6 years ago? 7 years ago, maybe? Yeah, not that long ago.

Anju 40:38
You’d be like, why wouldn’t the brain have a lymphatic system?

Dr. Deb Muth 40:41
Yeah! Yep.

Anju 40:44
Yeah, so things get in and out.

Dr. Deb Muth 40:46
They, they definitely.

Anju 40:47
You know, they get in easier than they get out, I think.

Dr. Deb Muth 40:50
I agree, I think they do, for sure, for sure. You know, when you’re talking to a family who’s undergoing issues like this, what’s the role, do you feel, in personalized nutrition to help them make things better?

Anju 41:10
I kind of go through, like, a little bit of a start here, start there, and then do this. I always start, number one, I say, okay, you gotta clean up your environment, because… We gotta do that.

Dr. Deb Muth 41:24
But that’s a…

Anju 41:24
process. And then number 2 for me is cleaning up the diet. And then, when you say personalized nutrition. To me, figuring out what is a good diet for the individual.

Dr. Deb Muth 41:38
Makes it a little bit difficult. Yeah.

Anju 41:41
I mean, there is, like, healthy eating concepts, where, you know, eat upside-down food pyramid kind of concept, I guess, is the new one, but whole foods, whole grains, organic as much as possible, especially for animal products, good fats, avoiding, you know, hydrogenated oils, and those seed oils, and… Just some basics, and then individualizing for my patients, a lot of people with any kind of autoimmune condition, and we kind of put autism in that neuroimmune, autoimmune, inflammatory That, gluten-free, dairy-free, and sugar-free kind of go there, like, as a given. If there’s a lot of gut issues, a lot of our folks have oxalate issues. And then we have to sometimes do low or limited oxalate diets. Many of my patients can’t convert glutamate to GABA efficiently.

Dr. Deb Muth 42:44
Yeah. So, high glutamates associated with OCD, and kind of looping or repetitive behaviors.

Anju 42:51
So, low-glutamate diets. And then some of my patients have SIBO, and then we do the low FODMAPs diet, and then some of my patients have messel, and we’ll do the fail-safe kind of concept with the fail-safe diet, so nutrition can get a little bit complex for certain people, but there are some basics, and then there are some, like, more of… Individual, kind of, diet approaches. And then there’s supplementation. There’s some things that I call foundational. For me, certain things most people need that have a chronic illness.

Dr. Deb Muth 43:26
Yeah.

Anju 43:26
Vitamin D3 is one of those. Omega-3s are another one for most. And then, because I did a lot of research on copper, zinc, I think 3 mineral… 4 minerals. I feel like people underdo minerals. They’re so important. Every single enzyme has a mineral cofactor, so… zinc is really important for my population with autism and ADD. 99% of them had high copper or low zinc in.

Dr. Deb Muth 43:58
Wow.

Anju 43:59
Over 400 patients that we tested.

Dr. Deb Muth 44:01
Wow.

Anju 44:03
And, magnesium.
So, zinc, magnesium, and then the other two minerals I really like are selenium for glutathione. and molybdenum for sulfation, and glycolysis. So… So those are kind of my foundational pieces, and then I like to work on the gut next. So, from a nutritional perspective, prebiotics are my new favorite.

Dr. Deb Muth 44:29
Yeah, we go in and out with prebiotics, probiotics, postbiotics.

Anju 44:34
Yeah, exactly, symbiotics.

Dr. Deb Muth 44:36
Yes, exactly, exactly.

Anju 44:38
demos, and…

Dr. Deb Muth 44:40
Yeah.

Anju 44:40
So yeah, biofilm busting, and all of that, so… And then I go into my other nitty-gritty stuff, like you probably do.

Dr. Deb Muth 44:47
individualized, right? So, you created, True Healing Nature, a supplement line, a supplement company, correct?

Anju 44:56
Yeah, True Hing Naturals.

Dr. Deb Muth 44:58
Truly Naturals, okay.

Anju 44:59
True, he is hard.

Dr. Deb Muth 45:01
Oats!

Anju 45:01
True!

Dr. Deb Muth 45:01
Healing natural. Got it, sorry about that. Tell us a little bit about what made you decide to create a supplement company. Was it because you couldn’t find formulations that you wanted? Couldn’t find clean products? That’s a big problem for people, for sure.

Anju 45:19
Yeah, a little bit of both. I told you that my kids were really sensitive, they had a lot.

Dr. Deb Muth 45:23
I know.

Anju 45:24
And when I would even try to give them things like ibuprofen.

Dr. Deb Muth 45:28
or Benadryl.

Anju 45:30
For allergies, they couldn’t tolerate the products that were over-the-counter.

Dr. Deb Muth 45:35
Yeah.

Anju 45:35
So, in 2007, I opened a compounding pharmacy so I could make things clean for them.

Dr. Deb Muth 45:42
Yeah.

Anju 45:43
And I thought it was so valuable. And so then I started seeing, like, certain issues with my patient population, for instance, say, mitochondrial issues. So, I would compound a mito cocktail. in my pharmacy. And then I had True Healing Naturals manufacture it, so I didn’t have to have patients get it compounded.

Dr. Deb Muth 46:08
Got it.

Anju 46:09
So that particular product’s called Mito Rescue. Okay. But then, I started… I do a lot of oats testing. Organic acid urine tests.

Dr. Deb Muth 46:19
Yeah.

Anju 46:20
But there’s, like, a marker on there for, oxalates, and I saw a lot of patients with oxalates, and oxalates inhibit some… an enzyme called, pyruvate decarboxylase. And that basically means you can’t take your carbs and turn them into energy.

Dr. Deb Muth 46:38
Okay.

Anju 46:39
So, if I saw this pattern with high oxalates and high pyruvic acid, I knew that that enzyme wasn’t working very well, and that enzyme is B1, molybdenum, and biotin dependent. So, I started compounding doses of that. And then I turned that into a product called Motor Connect, because high doses of biotin help with connectivity in the cerebellum.

Dr. Deb Muth 47:08
Got it. So, I did come… kind of start with the compounding pharmacy, try it, use it, and then turn it into.

Anju 47:17
products, and I have one for copper-zinc imbalances called True Minerals.

Dr. Deb Muth 47:21
Yeah, to fix the problems that were not commercially available. Could you talk a little bit for people who don’t understand what a compounding pharmacy is?

Anju 47:32
So, when you guys go to a pharmacy, you, you know, you send a prescription, and it’s already, it’s manufactured, and you get it. Well, a compounding pharmacy actually makes that for you. So they get the raw ingredients, and then they make that prescription. So it’s still prescription-based. But, for instance, say, I want Nystatin. And I go to Walgreens or CVS, and the nystatin there is a liquid, and it has yellow dyes and sugar.

Dr. Deb Muth 48:02
Yep. Or it’s a title, and it’s red.

Anju 48:04
or it’s bread, and a tablet, and I, like, oh, I want to treat the yeast, but I don’t want to use this. So I sent my nystatin prescription to a compounding pharmacy, and it’s Nystatin. That’s what you got. Yep.

Dr. Deb Muth 48:17
disappear.

Anju 48:18
So, pure compounding pharmacy, it’s pure, it’s pure stuff. Especially for our mast cell people. They’re so sensitive, and, you know, my kids are all mast cell, and so I just find that excipients, some people will say, oh, this doesn’t work, and I said, it’s probably the excipient that’s stimulating your mast cell activation. So, yeah. So, compounding pharmacies, You know, with all the big, kind of. conglomerates and big companies, they’ve become… they used to be, like, mom-and-pop kind of places. And my pharmacy is like that. It’s just… it’s… it’s a few of us, and we… we do it, and it’s nothing big or fancy, but we get the job done. So, we compound things like methylcobalamin injections, hydroxycobalamin, low-dose naltrexone. Different things for chelation. So, it’s nice. I love having it.

Dr. Deb Muth 49:11
Yeah, the compounding pharmacies really have made a huge difference for people who are sensitive. You know, so many ingredients are contaminated with corn and gluten and soy and dairy and all the big things that we want to stay away from, especially if we’re trying to treat the immune system. And even if the manufacturer says that’s not in our product. it’s contaminated, usually, because they’re usually preparing it in a facility that has those things floating around. Right. And for people who are really sensitive, that’s going to create some issues.

Anju 49:45
Yeah, people who are sensitive are sensitive to parts per trillion.

Dr. Deb Muth 49:48
Yeah.

Anju 49:49
I found that with my daughter with chemical sensitivity. You don’t have to see it, or you don’t have to smell it, but they could react to it.

Dr. Deb Muth 49:55
Yeah. And, a lot of these, like.

Anju 49:58
These different, substances, for instance, like enzymes, even the natural enzymes.

Dr. Deb Muth 50:03
They’re cultured in Aspergillus.

Anju 50:07
And so they’re extracted from mold.

Dr. Deb Muth 50:10
Yeah.

Anju 50:11
And so the really mold-sensitive people will maybe take a digestive enzyme, and they’ll have a reaction, and they’ll not understand why. Yeah. But it’s not because of the enzyme, it’s because of where it’s coming from.

Dr. Deb Muth 50:22
Yeah, where it’s cultured from. And if you have mold toxicity and mold sensitivity, and we’re looking at your mold test, wondering why are you getting a hit while we’re trying to clear it out, sometimes we forget that those products, and a variety of products that we used are cultured from molds. Yeah.

Anju 50:40
Yeah, yeah. It’s hard for the laypeople to understand all.

Dr. Deb Muth 50:45
You know.

Anju 50:45
of these pieces, but I think that… It used to be, like, the insurance companies would cover prescriptions from compounding pharmacies, but over the years, the lobbying and all of that has gotten so intense where, you know, a lot of that ends up out of pocket, but it’s really… it doesn’t really get that much more expensive than a copay would be.

Dr. Deb Muth 51:05
Right, right.

Anju 51:06
People just don’t know about it, yeah.

Dr. Deb Muth 51:08
Yeah, absolutely. So, you’ve been doing this now for more than 17 years, and you’ve made some remarkable progress with your patients. Can you share some success stories that still inspire you to do what you do every day?

Anju 51:27
I don’t know about you, but, like, when you first start, I think, God puts you… God puts all those really gray cases in front of you, because you’re like, whoa!

Dr. Deb Muth 51:37
Yes, and maybe…

Anju 51:38
I gave this patient methylcobalamin, and they started talking. Yeah. So methyl B12 back in the day was huge. you know, Dr. Nebrander’s protocol, and we would use that, and we would get speech, and… I mean, I’ve… it’s just… there’s hundreds of cases. There’s hundreds of cases, and same with Leukovorin now. Not for everybody, but when it really works, it’s really, really decent.

Dr. Deb Muth 52:07
Yeah, and worth a try, you know, if… if we suspect that’s what’s going on, these things are worth a try, because sometimes you just never know what’s going to be the key that unlocks the answer for them.

Anju 52:19
Yeah, but I think, you know, like, I can say… chelation, or… you know, I can, like, throw out a bunch of stuff.

Dr. Deb Muth 52:26
Okay.

Anju 52:27
In terms of, like, I’ve… I… I have those families, and I have those kids who are just… they’re just amazing, and they’re in college, and having jobs, and having kids, and…

Dr. Deb Muth 52:38
Yeah.

Anju 52:38
you know, all of that, but I think, you know, the ones that really strike me are the ones that I have to work really hard to get.

Dr. Deb Muth 52:44
And then we’.

Anju 52:45
they go, it’s not like, oh, I just did the diet, I’m cured, or I did this, and I’m better, or… Right. And I have those cases where the parents come to me and they say, I never thought my kid would Be going to college. And I never thought we would be here. So, those are the ones that really, like, when I get the little notes, or the, like, the college or the high school graduation pictures, and they… and some of them, you know, you lose touch with because they don’t need me anymore.

Dr. Deb Muth 53:19
Yeah.

Anju 53:20
And then you hear about it later. And then, I think the ones that don’t get better are the ones that, like, sit with me the most They just sit with me, and we’ve had this population of children with severe apraxia. So, apraxia is a motor planning issue, but if you saw these patients, you would think that they were… mentally deficient.

Dr. Deb Muth 53:44
Hmm.

Anju 53:45
Because they can’t talk.

Dr. Deb Muth 53:46
Yeah.

Anju 53:47
They’re the classic person that you would see that looks autistic. You know, running around, excited, verbal stimming, no speech.

Dr. Deb Muth 53:57
Hmm.

Anju 53:58
And that group of patients are incredibly Brilliant. And we are just finding out about how smart they are. There’s a book called Underestimated by J.B. Hanley and his son Jamie. JV has all the resources in the world. He used to put those ads in the New York Times about autism and vaccines. He could take his kid anywhere and do any treatment, and still, we… Blocked. Locked. Couldn’t get through. Couldn’t get through. And they started, spelling. To communicate, and this speller’s method, and it just opened a door. And it opened a door for so many of my patients who are metabolically challenged, so we do help them metabolically. Getting that ability to communicate. Some of them never got high school diplomas, and they went back to get their high school diplomas so they could go to college.

Dr. Deb Muth 54:56
Oh, wow, that’s amazing stories.

Anju 54:59
Yeah, and Elizabeth Bonker is one of those spellers, and she… she was a valedictorian in her high school, college. And she did a valedictorian speech that went. Viral, and she’s one of the people on that committee.

Dr. Deb Muth 55:13
That’s awesome.

Anju 55:14
He’s non-speaking. She… she can’t not speak.

Dr. Deb Muth 55:20
Wow.

Anju 55:21
But they asked her to be on this committee.

Dr. Deb Muth 55:24
That’s fantastic.

Anju 55:26
Huge.

Dr. Deb Muth 55:27
That’s huge. It is huge. There’s a way she can communicate, she just can’t verbalize the way you and I verbalize.

Anju 55:34
She’s brilliant. I mean, people on that committee, the, the individuals with autism on that committee, I know they’re brilliant people. Wow. But if you… if… If people saw them, they wouldn’t see that.

Dr. Deb Muth 55:47
Right.

Anju 55:47
So, I guess, for me, it’s like seeing the brilliance, seeing the competence in individuals, and as a practitioner, just trying to optimize it. But I know, like, the neurodiversity people say, okay, you know. We’re fine, and it’s like, yes, you are fine, you’re fine, and it’s okay. Whatever it is, it’s okay. But if you’re struggling metabolically, and we can help you feel better. What’s… what’s the harm in that?

Dr. Deb Muth 56:13
Right, let’s do that. Yeah. So you’re also part of something called MAPS, and you’re educating doctors worldwide. Tell us a little bit about MAPS, and how do you see the integrative pediatrics evolving in the next decade as a result of what we’re learning today?

Anju 56:36
I think we’re at a crossroads, and Maps is kind of in the middle of that crossroads. It used to be called Dan.

Dr. Deb Muth 56:47
Okay.

Anju 56:47
Autism Now.

Dr. Deb Muth 56:48
Yeah.

Anju 56:49
And then they kind of dissolved Dan and turned it into MedMaps. And MedMaps is Medical Academy for Pediatrics and Special Needs. So it’s not just special needs, it’s pediatrics. as well.So it’s kind of like the functional medicine for peds. And our goal is to train an army of clinicians to be the frontline. And how medicine should be, and how people should be trained. We should train them to do these types of things from the beginning. Because now it’s backwards.

Dr. Deb Muth 57:28
Right.

Anju 57:30
they come see us when nobody else can help them. But, so, we have some good leadership, and then… We are just trying to get people trained so that they understand that this is the future.

Dr. Deb Muth 57:50
If there’s a practitioner that’s listening to this, how do they get involved in MAPS?

Anju 57:55
They could come to a conference.

Dr. Deb Muth 57:57
Okay.

Anju 57:58
And the website is medmaps.org. And there’s 2 conferences a year. And we have scholarships, and we want people to come, so contact You know, the executive director, and… We just want people to come, share… their experiences, learn about functional medicine, it’s evidence-based, we try to… it’s really scientific, you know, we talk a lot of science.

Dr. Deb Muth 58:25
Oh yeah, a lot of science.

Anju 58:26
We talk a lot of science, and and so hopefully we can move all of this forward. Baster.

Dr. Deb Muth 58:35
I think the greatest thing, when you get into the functional medicine integrative space like this, and MAPS, and some of the other environmental academies and things like that. A lot of people might think it’s not science-based, and I’m always amazed at how much science we have, and it’s right, it’s all the things that you and I learned in biochem class, and chem class, and organic chem, and we were like, oh, let’s just learn this to be done with it. And then you get back, and you start doing integrated medicine, and you realize, like, all of that biochemistry stuff is what we needed to truly understand to fix people these These days, and you go back and you have to learn that in an intense version of it.

Anju 59:18
I felt like I finally understood the Krebs cycle, when I learned how it made metabolic stents, instead of just memorizing these cycles for… For the…

Dr. Deb Muth 59:30
Right? Like, they, like.

Anju 59:32
They just make sense to me.

Dr. Deb Muth 59:34
Yeah.

Anju 59:35
And I think that’s so important to understand, that all of this has science behind it, and it’s there, and the research is there.

Dr. Deb Muth 59:46
It’s just us having to learn how to utilize it, and recognize that not every person is going to be straightforward, and what we do for one might not work for another. There’s… It’s not as easy as prescribing a prescription and letting the person walk out the door in 10 minutes. That’s not what this is about at all.

Anju 01:00:05
No, and at MedMaps as well, they have a call for abstracts, and so we’re always looking for research, experience, so if any of the clinicians out there have, you know, things they want to share. then send an abstract to Maps. What a great blonde. I think, one of my doctor friends is doing an abstract on research that was done on sensory qigong massage.

Dr. Deb Muth 01:00:34
Oh.

Anju 01:00:34
And it helped with speech, and the theory was that, we were all thinking of the sensory system in the brain, the sensory system. In the periphery being affected neurologically, and how to turn that back on. So, it was… it’s…

Dr. Deb Muth 01:00:51
That’s neat.

Anju 01:00:51
Again, with the research, and with the science behind it, and with, like, clinical trials, and all of that.

Dr. Deb Muth 01:00:58
That’s awesome, I love that.
For parents that are just starting in this journey, what would you recommend be their first one or two steps?

Anju 01:01:10
Educate, educate, educate? How do you get educated? I do think that, TakaNow.org is a good place for, like, a biomedical approach, or this functional approach for autism. It’s the Autism Community in Action. MedMaps is doing a parent conference in March.

Dr. Deb Muth 01:01:31
Oh, awesome. They usually do that around, Memorial Day, right?

Anju 01:01:36
They’ll do it around Labor Day in September.

Dr. Deb Muth01:01:40
Labor Day in September, okay.

Anju 01:01:42
Yeah, and then mid-March.

Dr. Deb Muth 01:01:44
Okay.

Anju 01:01:45
Yeah. And they hadn’t done a parent conference before, but we had parents that wanted to come to the conferences, and it was just for clinicians before.

Dr. Deb Muth 01:01:54
Got it. Is it Autism One that does theirs around Memorial Day?

Anju 01:01:59
Oh yeah, they don’t exist anymore.

Dr. Deb Muth 01:02:01
Don’t, really.

Anju 01:02:03
conferences. There was.

Dr. Deb Muth 01:02:06
NAA, the National Autism Association.

Anju 01:02:09
They don’t do a lot of parent conferences in functional medicine either, so there’s a few left. Documenting Hope. That’s another really nice one. Oh, that’s great.

Dr. Deb Muth 01:02:21
So, what last words do you want to leave with our listeners?

Anju 01:02:29
You know, that’s… people always ask that at the end of these… I, I do feel that, Listen to your heart, you know, follow your intuition.

Dr. Deb Muth 01:02:40
I’ll let that guide you.

Anju 01:02:42
There’s a lot of information, sometimes it gets to be too much information. It’s hard to process everything, try not to make impulsive decisions about things. And… If you have a child with special needs, or if you have a grandchild with, issues. Presume competence. There’s a lot there.

Dr. Deb Muth 01:03:04
Yeah.

Anju 01:03:05
Especially some of these kids with behavior issues. I don’t know how many patients of mine are… Put on psychotropic meds. Metabolic issues, and, you know… It’s like, a lot of them have pain, like headache, abdominal pain, and inflammation, and they’re treating them with psych meds.

Dr. Deb Muth 01:03:25
Yeah. That’s sad, isn’t it?

Anju 01:03:28
I think, you know, try to look for the underlying cause. Not just band-aid things.

Dr. Deb Muth 01:03:34
Where can listeners, learn more about your work and what you do?

Anju 01:03:40
Oh, that’s tough. I don’t have a book. One of these days.

Dr. Deb Muth 01:03:48
Yes!

Anju 01:03:49
Yes, one of these days. I think, you know, med maps, we have a… if they’re clinicians.

Dr. Deb Muth 01:03:55
Hmm?

Anju 01:03:56
I have lectured a lot. For, for, communities like Taka, so there’s just a lot of… lectures that I’ve given online.

Dr. Deb Muth 01:04:09
Awesome. Well, thank you for taking your time with us today. It’s been a great conversation with you.

Anju 01:04:15
Thank you so much for inviting me, Debra. I’m honored to be here, and thank you for doing the work that you do to put Put this out there for people, because it’s really important information.

Dr. Deb Muth 01:04:27
Thank you. Thank you for joining me today on Let’s Talk Wellness Now. Today’s discussion with Dr. Usman reminds us that there’s always more we can do. We can look deeper into biology, environment, and lifestyle. to heal the next generation. If this episode inspired you, please share it with a parent or a practitioner who believes every child deserves a chance to thrive. And to learn more about Dr. Usman, you can visit TrueHealthMedical.com or TrueHealingnaturals.com. And if you’re ready to explore your own root cause healing, visit us at Serenityhealthcarecenter.com. You can also follow me on Instagram, and don’t forget to subscribe so you never miss an episode of Let’s Talk Wellness now. Until next time. I’m Dr. Deb, reminding you to nurture your body, mind, and spirit. Be well, and I’ll see you soon.

The post Episode 262 – The Root Cause of ADHD & Autism: Beyond the Diagnosis with Dr. Anju Usman Singh first appeared on Let's Talk Wellness Now.

Dr. Deb Muth 0:03

What are the answers to your child's chronic allergies, ADHD, or autism?

weren't just in another prescription, but in restoring balance to their body chemistry. Today's guest has spent nearly two decades uncovering those answers through integrative and biomedical medicine. That's a mouthful, isn't it?

Helping children heal when nothing else seemed to work.

This is the conversation about science, compassion, and changing the future of pediatric care.

Welcome back to Let's Talk Wellness Now.

The show where we uncover the root causes of chronic illness, explore regenerative breakthroughs, and empower you with the practical tools to heal. I'm your host, Dr. Deb, your medical detective, and today's episode is one every patient should hear.

My guest is Dr. Anu Usman Singh, Medical Director of True Health Medical Center in Naperville, Illinois, and the owner of Pure Compounding Pharmacy.

And for over 17 years, she has been pioneering evidence-based integrative interventions for children with ADD, autism, allergies, and complex gastrointestinal and metabolic disorders.

She's not only a practicing physician, she's a researcher who's investigated copper-zinc imbalances.

metallonine dysfunction, biofilm-related infections, vitamin D in pregnancy, and hyperbaric oxygen therapy.

Dr. Usman serves on the executive board of TACA, and is a faculty member at MAPS, training other practitioners in pediatric integrative care. So get ready for a conversation that will open your mind and heart to the possibilities of when medicine truly becomes holistic.

If you guys can insert the ad in here, that'd be great.

Well, welcome back. I'm so excited to have Dr. Usman with me today. I have known her for, oh my gosh, 15, 17 years, something like that. We're aging ourselves.

Anju 02:32

Oh, yeah, when we were in our 20s, right?

Dr. Deb Muth 02:35

Yes, exactly. So, welcome back, and I am so excited for you to be here, because you have literally helped thousands of families over the years.

But I'd love for you to share a little bit about your journey, kind of who you are, what drew you into exploring integrative and biomedical approaches for helping children and families.

Anju 02:58

I think my journey is similar to a lot of you out there, the audience. I mean, we're looking to help our families, and our kids, and ourselves, and I was doing my residency at Cook County Hospital, downtown Chicago, in the 80s.

And I thought, oh my goodness, if I could take care of the sickest patients, then I can take care of anybody. So I came from Indiana, and I went to Cook County, and my children, my eldest daughter, started having, severe allergies and asthma, really, really at a young age.

And I went to, like, my residence, and I went to my attendings, and I said, this baby is wheezing. And they told me, babies don't have asthma.

And I said, she has all the symptoms of asthma. She has asthma.

And I remember with, in her crib, I would just nebulize her, you know, and I was like, what is going on?

And I figured out that she had a lot of food allergies, and I was nursing her, eating the foods that she was allergic to, and back then, in the 80s, you know, we didn't have the internet, we didn't have Whole Foods, and I just…

being a doctor, and I didn't even know what to do, and I felt so hopeless. And I thought, gosh, you know, I'm a doctor, I have these, like, skills, I have… people I can talk to, and I still feel so… it's so difficult. And then this… my particular daughter, the oldest one, her name is Priya, and she developed severe, asthma, and I couldn't figure it out. She was in junior high. Every time she would walk into the lunchroom, she would have a severe asthma attack.

And I'll be like, what's going on? What's going on? I kept her home over the weekend, she was better. I sent her back to school, she was bad again.

And we figured it out that it was other people eating peanuts.

Dr. Deb Muth 04:54

Severe peanut allergy.

Anju 04:56

And I went to the school, and I said, she…

can you, like, put her somewhere else? Can… they said, oh, no, that's not fair to other kids and their food. And this was in the 90s.

Dr. Deb Muth 05:10

Yeah.

Anju 05:10

And so, I just…

You know, my heart goes out to families who are struggling to find answers for their kids, and my daughter Priya, the one I told you about, she ended up passing away from a peanut allergy.

And so, I've just…

Dr. Deb Muth 05:26

Yeah.

Anju 05:27

My heart goes out to parents and my own kids and their illnesses.

And so I just started working with families, with kids, and

It just kind of grew from there.

Dr. Deb Muth 05:40

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, and I think being a mom who went through that yourself, and…

was seen but not heard, and turned away from the traditional medical community, you're forced to start finding answers on your own. And we always feel like we're on an island by ourselves in the medical world when we're doing that.

Anju 06:01

Yeah, I, it was really hard when I found out, you know, about…

Integrative medicine, and just different…

ideas and approaches to diet and supplements, I thought, how come I wasn't trained in any of this?

And…

Dr. Deb Muth 06:21

So angry when I learned some of the things that I learned in the beginning. I was like, same thing, like, how did they not teach us this? And then I think, you know, it's my fault, was I asleep, was I not paying attention, whatever. And then you just realize, like, there's this whole part of the human body.

That they just didn't teach us.

Anju 06:42

Yeah, so then I… I, probably like you, we had to learn it on our own. There weren't, like, classes or any way to learn this stuff

And I just reached out. There's a clinic that,

I don't know if you've heard of the Pfeiffer Treatment Center?

Dr. Deb Muth 07:00

No.

Anju 07:01

Do you know Carl Pfeiffer from the attendees.

He has a clinic called the Pfeiffer Treatment Center in New Jersey. It was called the Princeton Brain Bio Center.

Dr. Deb Muth 07:12

And in the 70s, they did orthomolecular medicine for patients with ADD.

Anju 07:18

And schizophrenia.

Dr. Deb Muth 07:20

Mmm…

Anju 07:21

and depression.

And they used to categorize them in 3 categories, and at the time, they called them histopenics, histidelics, and pyrolurics.

Dr. Deb Muth 07:31

Okay.

Anju 07:32

Histapenix were low histamine patients.

Delix were high histamine patients, and pyrolurics were their own kind of category. We added another category of copper-zinc imbalances, and then we would categorize that population into high histamine, low histamine, pyrolurics, and copper-zinc.

Now we talk about under-methylation, over-methylation. Sure. So, under-methylation is the, you know, the high histamine people, they can't clear the histamine. And the over-methylators are, you know, what we call about low histamine now.

And, and then pyrolurics and copper zinc. So…

I lost my train of thought, but in the 80s, when I was going through this, in the 90s, I reached out to the Pfeiffer Treatment Center.

He's like, can I calm and just hang out and, like, see what you guys do? Because I need some answers.

And I started working there and, started doing research on copper-zinc imbalances, and I did it in children with autism.

And that's how people started coming to me, and I kinda got, like. not famous, but I, you know, the word spread about, okay, we could talk about it, and Dr.

Walsh was the, you know, PhD there that did a lot of the research, so we worked together for 8 years.

Dr. Deb Muth 09:05

Isn't it crazy to think that we knew about histamine issues way back in the 70s? You know, I got the pleasure of being trained by, environmental medicine doctors. Dr. Wayne Konetsky and Glenn Toth taught me about environmental medicine, and what we called histamine issues that we call it today, mast cell, right? But when I was learning in the early 2000s, it was labeled as chemical sensitivity. And so it was just people that would react to everything, and we really didn't know why, and they didn't necessarily have this very specific allergic reaction, but we knew they were reacting, and we would try to treat them, to lower the histamine way back then. And it's taken all these years, 25 years, to get to a point where we understand mast cell activation now, and histamine issues.

And it's really sad to me that it's taking this long for us to identify things.

And we've all got our journey, and I loved back in those days, too, because as I learned, I would call people up and say, hey, I just got a patient from you, and they told me this great story, and I have other people, can I come see what you were doing? And back then, everybody was very open. They were like, yes, please, come, learn. Now everybody's like, oh, we can't teach you, we can't give you our secrets, but…

Or pay me $20,000 to come learn with me. But back then, I mean, everybody was just… we were all in the same boat. We were all just trying to learn from each other.

Anju 10:36

Oh, yeah, oh yeah, and any bit of knowledge you got, you're like…

Dr. Deb Muth 10:41

Yes.

Anju 10:41

God, you know, I learned this piece, and…

Dr. Deb Muth 10:43

Hmm?

Anju 10:44

We just kind of built from that. I keep thinking about b...

Dr. Deb Muth 0:03
What if everything you’ve been told about getting healthy is backwards?
What if chasing symptoms with pills, procedures, and quick fixes is exactly why you’re still sick? Tired, inflamed, and frustrated. Today, I’m sitting down with Dr. Holly Donahue, a naturopathic doctor who walked away from corporate burnout to discover the truth.
Your body already knows how to heal. You just need to remove what’s blocking it, and give it what it’s missing. If you’re done with Band-Aid solutions and ready for real, lasting transformation, this conversation changes everything.

Welcome back to Let’s Talk Wellness Now, the show where we uncover the root causes of chronic illness, explore cutting-edge regenerative medicine, and empower you with the tools to heal. I’m Dr. Deb, your medical detective, and today, we’re diving into the hidden truth about whole body wellness, and why treating symptoms will never give you the vibrant health you deserve.

I’m joined by Dr. Holly Donahue, a licensed naturopathic doctor with over two decades of clinical experiencing Helping high performers heal from burnout, chronic fatigue, hormone imbalance, and stubborn weight issues. She’s the founder of Simple Health, and she’s here to share the science-backed approach to root cause healing that addresses your body, mind, and spirit, not just your lab values. If you or someone you love has been diagnosed with a chronic condition, or is struggling with unexplained symptoms like fatigue, brain fog, hormonal chaos, or chronic inflammation. This episode is for you. Please share it with them. So, as usual, grab your cup of coffee, tea, or whatever helps you unwind, settle in, and let’s get started on your journey to deeper healing. And we’ll be right back after a word from our sponsor.

All right. So, Dr. Donahue, let’s start with the question that’s on everyone’s mind, right? How did you transition away from corporate and into the world of, naturopath… natural medicine, naturopathic medicine, root cause medicine, all the wonderful terms we’re using for this these days?

Dr. Holly Donahue 02:56
Yeah, first of all, thanks for having me, Dr. Debb. I so appreciate it, and that is a beautiful question, and I will share with you my health journey and why I got into this, and… how I got to do this amazing work, right? Because I always believed, for me, my higher being is God, and it walked right into me, right? Because I was pretty happy in the apparel industry. So, just as you said, I was in the apparel industry, I, my education doesn’t really matter, but double, like, marketing and textile marketing, and I was in design, and I was working in design. from LA to London to the East Coast.

And 2 days after September 11th, to sum it up, I got laid off. Even though I had been pulled out of a job where my vice president of the company was like, I want you to come down here with me, and the apparel industry, you’re switching every two to three years. For those that don’t know it, that’s just how the journey works, and I was known as a changemaker in the field. And so, here we are two days after September 11th, and I was seeing a naturopath, and I was, let’s see, 29 to 30, right? And so, prior to that, the reason why I searched out for a naturopath was because in my teenage years, and…

Up until that time, I was suffering with horrible menstrual cramps and horrible depression, hence why I moved to LA, thinking if I was in the sun all the time, my life would change, which we all do, change our place, change our time, things will change. Had nothing to do with family or roots, but I thought, if I’m around sunshine all the time, I won’t be depressed. Well, wherever you go, there you are, because it went with me, right? So I had my foot down to the ground, and I was just like, I am committed to not living life like this, right? Even at 7 years old, I had strep ear all the time, and my mom’s like, we’re gonna have your tonsils out, and I’m like, no we’re not. And she goes, no, you’re gonna feel so much better, no more strep ear. And I’m like, God gave them to me for a reason, you’re not taking them out. She’s like, okay, like, I was really strong.

And so, let’s wind up to 2 days after September 11th. Prior to that, I had started to retake chemistry and biology, because I haven’t taken it since my textile years, which was a different chemistry, right? And so, I thought, well, I’ll just start and see where it goes, because my naturopath at the time. Dr. Dadama was like, we need more naturopaths, and I’m like, I’m really good where I am. I love what I do, I love corporate America, I love designing, I love product development. And he’s like, no, no, no, so he kept talking. Well, when this all fell… And 2 days after September 11th, I raised my hand and I said, God, I hear you. I went off to naturopathic medicine school in my 30s.

And I never looked back, and I just really believe the gift of healing was, put together for me in so many ways. And so, why do I love talking about natural medicine, naturopathic medicine? Because I was not gonna just take an antidepressant, which is what the medical world… they wanted to give me a pill for a nail, that’s what I call it. I didn’t need to be on birth control. I wasn’t sexually active. Right? So none of that made sense to me. And it wasn’t until I really changed my nutrition, began to understand who I am as a person, and what my body really needed, did I heal.

Dr. Deb Muth 06:20
Isn’t that amazing? Like, I think so many of us enter into the alternative quote-unquote world. Because what is happening over here in what is known as the traditional medicine world isn’t working for people, and no one’s listening to them, and we just follow the traditional protocol, whether it makes sense or not, this is the protocol, everybody gets it. There’s no individuality, no personalization, nothing that happens in that world. And so, people tend to go looking for that… that uniqueness that natural medicine and naturopaths allow to happen. And that’s where true healing actually begins, for so many people.

Dr. Holly Donahue 07:02

Yes, and honestly, once my hormones were healed, hence why I talk about hormones all the time, and my thyroid was healed, and I was eating the right nutrition, and for those of you that are listening, please stop playing with nutrition, like, get on that… get on that connection of what works for you. And I’ll be honest, like, none of us as doctors can… we can guide you. what’s really good in eating, but figuring it out for yourself is important. And the other naturopath that I saw. Never healed me. I only got so far by just taking supplements and herbs. And I speak that into that, that’s why I’m so driven around the foundation of our medicine. I am not just saying this, is your nutrition. And until I changed my nutrition, and I figured out what workouts work best for me, and I took all the toxicity and mucus out of my body, I was just inflamed, and I didn’t really it. I was eating all the wrong foods. Right? My body can’t do searches and simple sugars, hence why I talk about it, and so many people are addicted to sugar, and they deny it.

Dr. Deb Muth 08:11
Yeah.

Dr. Holly Donahue 08:11
It’s a comfort food, right? So, I always say, I can’t heal you until I fix your nutrition and your sugar, and if that’s not something that you’re willing to work on with me with love, I am not the right practitioner. Because I remember it didn’t heal me.

Dr. Deb Muth 08:29
Yeah. I think we forget that nutrition is our medicine, right? Food is thy medicine. And it’s so easy for us to just say, but it’s easier to just take 10 supplements than it is to change my diet, cook for the whole family, and then cook for me. Nutrition is really, really difficult for people, because so much of who we are is born into nutrition, right? All of those family traditions of what we make at Christmas, or Easter, or what do you do for a celebration, when all of that changes, you kind of… you have a loss for things. So how do you work around that with people?

Dr. Holly Donahue 09:12
Yeah, so I look at that as, I’m always suggesting to individuals in all these different celebrations, like, if you’re the one, kind of. that is the pinnacle that’s creating the celebrations, could you change that, right? So maybe you always have people over for your children’s birthday parties, and you have cake, and, you know, you have a spaghetti dinner, whatever it looks like. I’m not judging, I’m not here to judge, I just know what works, right? Then maybe you get to change that. How about doing an outdoor activity with the children? Maybe choosing to go on a hike to the beach where they’re active.

And then, you know, you do a healthy treat with them, or do we always have to have these celebrations around sugar? And I’m talking America, because I never saw this when I lived in Europe, like, the way it is here, right? Or, as adults, we’re celebrating with alcohol all the time, right? I removed sugar and alcohol from my diet years ago just because I knew I just didn’t feel good with it. I’m not judging that that’s what you need to do. So, back to your question, the other suggestion I say, if you can with your family, because I know there’s all sorts of… Hidden rules, quiet rules, ways you have to do things to be fit in. First of all, stand up for your own health, so I suggest that. And secondly, how about if you bring something to that meal that you can share with everybody that you know that you can eat? If that doesn’t work, I’m pretty sure, I’m pretty confident, unless I’m really not connected, and I’ve never had anybody not be able to maneuver this. When you go to a meal, look at where… what the protein is there, look at what vegetables are there. And if you’re wanting to have a piece of cake, or a bread, or whatever that looks like for you as you’re carbohydrate simple starch, choose one or the other, and make those choices. And secondly, never go to a holiday, or a meal, or a function, or a gathering starving.

Dr. Deb Muth 11:22
That is a great suggestion, because once you go there starving, it’s a smorgasbord of food, right? And you’re just grabbing whatever, because you’re so hungry. we don’t think about that. Most people do go to the party starving because they know there’s going to be all this amazing food there that tastes good but might not be healthy for us, but we’re looking forward to having those kinds of things.

Dr. Holly Donahue 11:45
And just have a little bit less, right? So, like, extreme, you know, maybe, like, grab 2 tablespoons of something if you want to have it, if that’s something. And the other truth is, is that I don’t want people to not live their life and enjoy their life because they’re learning what works for them. And when I say that, like, the 7 pillars of wellness, like. I’m saying movement, I’m saying relationships, I’m saying lifestyle, I’m even saying job, you guys, like, emotions, how you were born and raised, what that, like, that is all important for your health. And I always say, lots of times, I’m not even having constant medical conversations with patients, I’m really having discipline and connection. Like, how can you change how you’re doing things

Because we’re so wired. to do… do it the way that we knew how to do it, and it’s really hard to change our neurological habits, and it’s really hard to change our wiring, especially if that’s how we were born and raised, right? And so, sometimes that can really trigger us. But, if you’re going to go to that meal, right, that we’re talking about. Then how about you can, like, encourage everybody afterwards, if it’s nice out, to go for a walk, or have some sort of movement together, so that you had what you wanted, you showed up, you didn’t feel like you were, like, out in left field, and you couldn’t have what everybody had, but you’re still grounded in your own truth, and making decisions, and then you’re like, hey, how about if we all go for a walk, like, and have a chat together? You know, like, you know, and you’re changing, probably, in the family, and then the deeper one that I love, Dr. Deb, the deeper one, is that ripple effect. Once people start to see you heal, they’re gonna ask you what you did.

Dr. Deb Muth 13:42
Yeah, that is so true.

Dr. Holly Donahue 13:43
effect is in the family.

Dr. Deb Muth 13:45
And people notice. We don’t always think people notice. They might not always say things, but they do notice when somebody’s changing. When they look better, their skin is better, their hair is better, they are more vibrant, they have more energy, they’re thinking better. They notice those types of things.

Dr. Holly Donahue 14:04
Yeah. And you’re not as short with loved ones, right? Because when you don’t feel good and you’re eating, you know, sugar, like, and I mean simple starches, because patients will be like, Dr. Donnie, I don’t eat sugar. And I’m like, okay, well, if you’re not eating sugar, why is your glucose 120 and your hemoglobin A1C 6?
So the glucose is immediate, for those that are listening, don’t know. That’s an immediate reading of your glucose, or the hemoglobin A1C tells me what happened over the 3 months, right? A 3-month cycle, so then I get a clip picture of it, and I also test insulin as well, but what I say to them is, okay, you’re not eating sugar.
But your body’s seeing something as sugar, because your glucose is still elevated, and your hemoglobin A1C is over 5.4 to 5.6, right? 5.8, you know what I mean? That’s when we start to look at prediabetes, and what people don’t understand is when those numbers, like hemoglobin A1C, are at that elevation, that didn’t just start yesterday. That has been fire in your body for a very long time. Same with cholesterol.

Dr. Deb Muth 15:12
Yeah.
Yeah, we forget about that. You know, this is coming from decades of what we do, not 3 months of what we do. And most people, if we look back on their lifestyles. starting at a very young age, and it saddens me to see young little… little children, babies, right, 2 and 3 years old, that are drinking soda in a bottle. They’re drinking pure sugar everywhere, you know, Gatorade and all this stuff. That’s full of dyes and toxins and sugars, and then we wonder why they’re going crazy, driving mom and dad crazy, bouncing off the walls, or can’t sit still in school and can’t concentrate, because we’ve just fed them a drug that’s just wired them up. And then we just tell them to hurry up and be quiet, right? And that just doesn’t happen, but that… what we’re seeing now is starting at such a young age, you know? So many young people are feeding their kids just garbage all the time, breakfast, lunch, and dinner. It’s terrible.

Dr. Holly Donahue 16:14
And it’s fascinating, because I’ll use an example of that. Every year, my family and I go to Antigua for a couple weeks, and I just got back a couple weeks ago, and we go in March, right? And so, when… I was at, like, I’ll say the breakfast buffet, right? It’s healthier foods, and I’m not judging, but, like, my family would grab eggs, and we’re like, where’s our protein? Okay, you can do yogurt, you know what I mean? Like, choosing, right? And then our fruit would be our carbohydrate, and then there was nuts there, and so we were really, like, being choice, and then we all do like coffee, right? And so, we chose… I was looking around at the children there that were beautiful, like, little kids, and they’re so sweet, and they’re on their vacation at this nice resort with their family, and they’re eating Froot Loops, and they’re eating all these sugary donuts. Of course, the resort makes them, right? Because a lot of those places, they’re made, they don’t bring them in.

Dr. Deb Muth 17:14
And they’re.

Dr. Holly Donahue 17:14
eating croissants and breads, and then they’re, you know, running around, and the families are, like, chasing them. And then, over in another corner.
there was a very well-behaved little boy with a mother and father that you could tell was very quiet, very grounded in what they fed the baby, and I just happened to talk to them later. And she happens to be a holistic wellness, yoga and Reiki practitioner, and he happens to be a yoga instructor, and they’re very cautious what they eat, so I noticed they were asking for a lot of vegetables and protein like we were doing, even at lunch and dinner. And I said, you guys are so grounded. But there’s the difference. I’m not trying to compare, but the difference is, just give your kid whatever they want on vacation. Well, you can’t take them back and be like, okay, now you can’t have that at home. like, they’re gonna start to eat the way you eat, so if you don’t go up and get a donut and a croissant, I’m just using simple examples, you are really making the way for the health for your child for the rest of your life. Or for their life, I should say.

Dr. Deb Muth 18:29
And it’s so important, right? Because we see so much disease happening at such a young age. I don’t know how you are, but in my practice. We have so many young people, you know, 10, 12, 14, 16, that are sick. And really, really sick. And you… it kind of keeps going. We go back and forth with this, like. why do we see so many more young people? One of my doctors treats autism, so we’ve always had young people in our office. But now we’re seeing the young teenagers that are sick, that are not autistic, but they’re now sick, and it’s more and more and more of them, and we just haven’t seen that. I’ve been in practice 25 years. We didn’t see that before. You know, you didn’t see people that were sick until they were, like, in their 40s, because they were burning the candle at both ends, and they just got burned out. But now that’s happening younger and younger.

Dr. Holly Donahue 19:24
100%, and that goes back to everything that we were talking about. And if you want to step into the other piece of it, it’s all the chemicals and the toxicity that are around us, the radiation from the cell phones. We are vibrational frequency beings. That is not a woo statement, that’s true, that’s how our cell structure is. Then we’re putting all this unnatural makeup and fake eyelashes, a lot of people are wearing, non-organic, natural makeup, you know, underarm deodorant that has aluminum in it, cleaning products that are full of toxicity, we’re breathing them in, you know, there’s mold in so many houses as well. And really, if we don’t have a really strong nutrition protocol for ourself, sleeping well, sleeping soundly as a child, or even as an adult, we’re not spiking cortisol all the time. You know, how can we build up our immune system as a young person, or even as an adult? I mean, these young people are in, like, they tell me all these things they were in, and I’m just like, oh my gosh, I’d be exhausted before, like, 2 o’clock in the afternoon.

Dr. Deb Muth 20:36
Right? Right.

Dr. Holly Donahue 20:38
because their parents are trying to work two jobs, they think the more they do, the better they are, the more it’ll look better on the resume, or at school, or the college that they get into. And it’s like, we’re telling this messaging to go, go, go. When do we tell them to meditate and pray and just be quiet?

Dr. Deb Muth 20:55
Yeah, we never do.

Dr. Holly Donahue 20:56
Creative.

Dr. Deb Muth 20:57
We never do. I have a young man in my practice, and he’s just amazing. Typical Type A personality, mast cell. He’s out of college, he’s on a sports team.
And they literally go from 5 in the morning until midnight, and then these kids have to stay up and study, get their homework done, and so they’re running on maybe, if they’re lucky, 2 to 3 hours of sleep, and this happens 5 to 6 days a week.
How do we possibly think that this is healthy for these kids?

Dr. Holly Donahue 21:27
Hmm. Yeah, then they’re living in dorms that probably aren’t healthy. Like, my niece lived in a dorm that was full of mold, right? And my sister got her an air purifier, but still, it’s still coming in. And then the food that these institutions feed you, and then I’ll have these, you know, because I live near UNH, my clinic is near UNH, and they’ll be like, but we’re on the meal plan, do you know what I mean?

And so I try to teach them the best way to maneuver, like, a buffet and a meal plan. But the truth is, is like, is it really organic foods? Healthy, quality foods? Probably not. So then it’s like, you can’t really… it’s hard for you to get off the meal plan, like, it’s all these, like… I call it the matrix kind of connections, like, you can’t… there’s not flexibility, and then if you have mast cell, it’s like, holy cow, your immune system is already overfiring itself, and now you’re burning the cortisol at all ends, like, how can you calm that flame down?

Dr. Deb Muth 22:27
Yeah, I remember when my daughter went to college, she had celiac disease, and they forced her to do the meal plan as a freshman, even though we said there’s not going to be anything she can eat, it’s all going to be contaminated. So they forced us to purchase the meal plan, even though she couldn’t have anything on the meal plan. And so she had to go outside of school to eat, which made it more difficult. And just all the way around, they don’t make anything easy for kids that have special dietary needs in these colleges.

Dr. Holly Donahue 23:00
It’s… it’s… It’s very unfortunate, you know what I mean? And then it… and then what is the first thing that people release, which they really need, is to move their body and do exercise and movement, so when they’re exhausted, they have to show up to so many classes, or they’ll get dinged, but yet they’re not getting sleep at night, and then they’re showing up exhausted, then they’re trying to eat, they’re trying to function.

And then here we step in trying to help them, and it’s just like they’re already overloaded, and so to give them a protocol to follow. it’s just really hard for me to watch that maneuvering, so then I just say, okay, let’s just do one thing at a time. It’s gonna be a slow healing, but one thing is better than the other.

Dr. Deb Muth 23:49
Right.

Dr. Holly Donahue 23:50
Nothing.

Dr. Deb Muth 23:51
Yeah, let’s… let’s turn our conversation a little bit, because we’re already heading in that direction, to the burnout, you know?
This is epidemic in our country, and especially among high-performing women, the college kids, even the high school kids, the leaders, the busy moms, and everybody’s trying to hold everything together. What are you seeing in your practice in this population?

Dr. Holly Donahue 24:13
Yeah, and I actually have a lot of entrepreneurs and, like, executives, and believe it or not, I have a lot of nurses and some doctors in my program. I am seeing aha moments that they, even though some of the medical practitioners I have know that sleep is important, they’re just like, I had no idea, right?
that sleep was so important, and that shutting off the, light, and your computers, and your email and everything, like, to create a sleep ritual, right, for them. They are so shocked with that. But I am seeing, if you’re asking me diagnosis, I am seeing more autoimmunity than I’ve ever seen before, especially in women.
I am seeing… I only used to see, because I do the blood type nutrition, because Dr. Dadamo trained me in that.

Dr. Deb Muth 25:07
I use…

Dr. Holly Donahue 25:07
to only see diabetes in O blood type. And prediabetes. I would see some sugar tweaks in A’s and ABs and B’s, but not too much. Like, I see more nervous system dysregulation in an A, and I didn’t see a lot of cardiac in A’s, I saw it more in O’s. That almost… he’d probably roll over in his grave, but that’s almost, like, debunked now, because I’m seeing diabetes in A’s all day long, I’m seeing it in B’s, I’m seeing insomnia like there’s no tomorrow, I’m seeing a lot of, you know, undiagnosed mold and Lyme, where people are completely exhausted, and I know the labeling of chronic fatigue and fibromyalgia is just a catch-all diagnosis, so…

Many of my patients know I don’t like to label, because if I tell you you have a condition, how many people hold on to that condition and use that as messaging for their life? And I… what I tell them is, let’s look at your labs functionally. I’m seeing very disrupt… I see a lot of mast cell now. I’m seeing a lot of long-haul COVID, or even lung conditions that… We have no idea where it’s coming from.

Like, shortness of breath, wheezing, and they’re being diagnosed with asthma, but all the treatments that I’ve done over the years with asthma isn’t healing it. So I’ve got two people that are really at a risk, and have been on rounds of prednisone, and it’s really hard for me to watch, and so I’m stepping back into, you have to slow down, you get to do what you love, who are you being? everyday life, and how are you showing up? And your body, even though as an O, you can take a lot of stress.

Dr. Deb Muth 26:57
But yeah.

Dr. Holly Donahue 26:58
your body is too stressed out. And it’s shocking that the first thing that… not really, but it still is to me, the first thing people let go of is the nutrition, and the movement, and the sleep.

Dr. Deb Muth 27:13
Yeah.

Dr. Holly Donahue 27:14
And the main things…

Dr. Deb Muth 27:15
We need to heal.

Dr. Holly Donahue 27:16
Exactly. So when you ask me that, the biggest piece is blood sugar and stress, cortisol, and adrenals.

Dr. Deb Muth 27:24
Yeah.

Dr. Holly Donahue 27:24
Without a label.

Dr. Deb Muth 27:26
Yeah, we’re seeing a lot of the same thing. The autoimmunity, the mast cell is huge. More recently, probably the last two months, we’ve been seeing a lot of, very rare, strange cancers that don’t make sense.

Dr. Holly Donahue 27:38
Oh.

Dr. Deb Muth 27:38
We’re seeing a lot of undiagnosed mold and Lyme and things like that as well. I mean, it’s just so much more unusual things than what we’ve seen before.
and struggling with patients, like things that we used to do, kind of like what you’re saying with the asthma, things that we’ve always done that have worked are not working the same way as they used to, not responding the same way. Since 2020, things have really changed a lot. It’s very difficult.
Yeah.

Dr. Holly Donahue 28:07
And I think we’re in such transition in the world itself, like, with the nutrient depletion of the soil. And so it’s like, okay, like, how much do we supplement? How much do we use herbs? Like, I love… I personally use a lot of homeopathy.

You know, even… that was my go-to. I lost my dad a year ago, we, and I’ve been in a round of grief, and it’s real, you know, and so my go-to was homeopathy, because I had all the other pieces together. However, I did notice, like, the fatigue was real, like, I just kind of wanted to sleep more, you know what I mean? Because it was just, like… but I’ve allowed that to happen, right? And I’ve just had to pivot my schedule, but I know I can as an entrepreneur, but still, you can too. You just have to ask those questions. Do you know what I mean? Like, you gotta figure out what works for you. But if you keep in that go-go state, like you and I just mentioned, all these diagnoses, they’re all, like, almost to me, epigenetics from the outside world, and then the pressure that we’re putting on ourselves, and then when we put that pressure on ourselves, our cells are just completely disrupted. Our gut microbiome is off. If our gut is off. then our immune system can’t heal, so then if COVID or Lyme or something, we get reinfected, that our immune system knows, it almost doesn’t know it anymore, because it’s full of toxicity.

Dr. Deb Muth 29:34
Yeah, I agree.

Dr. Holly Donahue 29:35
People are constipated!

Dr. Deb Muth 29:36
Yes, yes, just about everybody we see is constipated these days, yeah.
I really like your approach. I appreciate how you focus on not just supplements and protocols, but you address all of it, like sleep, nutrition, lifestyle. Why is that whole body approach so critical when you’re working with people that have either been burnt out or just have been ill for a while?
What is it about that approach that makes it so, so much better than what we do traditionally?

Dr. Holly Donahue 30:09
Well, first of all, the first thing that comes to my mind is that, I don’t believe the body, you can use one system and one drug at a time. Pharmaceuticals are indicated when they’re indicated. I have somebody that came in with incredibly high elevated cholesterol and hemoglobin A1C, was put on Wegovy and was put on a statin, for example.
Those were indicated then and there. Wegovy, I don’t know, but it’s okay, we can work through it, right?
But if we just leave that individual there, whether I do herbs or drugs, I’m never getting to the root cause of what’s happening. I’m never getting to, what is your relationship with your wife? Do you enjoy work? Do you… what do you do? How many times do my patients, I say to them, don’t focus on weight.
Like, what do you do for joy? So this, to me, is the whole person. The person is just not the pancreas, the blood sugar, the cardiovascular system, and the lungs. Those are very important in the whole arterial system, or we won’t.

Dr. Deb Muth 31:18
Right.

Dr. Holly Donahue 31:18
But, like, even the movement, if I don’t talk about movement, like, I don’t know about you, but after, like, a podcast, or after I go live, I have to get up and walk around. We’re not meant to be. It’s not good for our backs, right?

Dr. Deb Muth 31:32
Hmm?

Dr. Holly Donahue 31:33
And then if we don’t use the whole body approach, like massage, and I do colon hydrotherapies at the clinic, and muscle stim, and ultrasound, and visceral management, and craniosacral, like, but the biggest thing that heals is removing the toxicity, like with saunas, you know?
And it’s like… If I just focused on… One system, for example.
And, for example, thyroid. How many women have Hashimoto’s thyroid? Like, they’re gonna be on thyroid medicine for the rest of their life. Is that truth? No! I have gone on thyroid and come off thyroid when I was really sick, right? The receptors aren’t connecting to what’s going on, because my receptors, they’re all mooky, right?

Dr. Deb Muth 32:19
Like…

Dr. Holly Donahue 32:20
I’m using non-medical terms so they understand. It’s like, all of this toxicity, it can’t get to it, right? Because there’s so much toxicity in the body. So if I just focus on not doing the whole person… then I’m not getting to the root cause, and what’s gonna happen, and this is in my mind, because I’ve been through it, I’m just gonna only heal a little bit, like I did when I was a teenager. with… if I’m just giving supplements, and I’m not doing the whole body approach, right? And if I’m not looking at the bone health of women as they age, as estrogen and progesterone and menopause.

Dr. Deb Muth 32:56
cousin.

Dr. Holly Donahue 32:56
and I’m not focusing on that, then long-term, I mean, I’ve had my patients for 25 plus years, long-term.
we’re gonna end up with bone challenges, osteopenia, osteoporosis, right? Placking of the arteries, so if I just do one system.
I’m not doing you service.

Dr. Deb Muth 33:17
Yeah, I love that. I love that. And that’s so true, because we don’t think about, necessarily think about 10 years from now, 15 years from now. Everyone’s focused on.
what’s going on right now, let’s fix right now. But that person still has to live in their body, no matter what we do right now. We’ve got to get them past that and get them to a place where they can function 10, 15, 20 years from now. And that makes a huge difference, and like you were saying, the toxicity, I mean, the toxins that we’re exposed to today are so much worse than they were 25 years ago when you and I started this. And it was bad then, but now it’s really bad, and trying to get these things out of people so they don’t develop autoimmune disease, they don’t develop cancer, they don’t get neurological conditions like Alzheimer’s and dementia and Parkinson’s. It becomes harder and harder, and the sooner you do that, the better success you have without getting those things later on, when you do get older and your immune system falls a little bit.

Dr. Holly Donahue 34:11
Yeah, and we are probably, even though most of our research is done on men, and thank God we’re, you know, getting more and more research on women, like the cardiovascular disease in women and heart attack myocardial infarctions. you guys is very different in women, so please ask and find out, because there’s a lot of women that we’re losing in the ER because they’re trying to do the diagnosing of a male, and that’s coming out now. I can’t remember the doctor that’s done several podcasts on it. I think she’s out of Stanford, and it’s like, she’s starting to speak up, right? This isn’t a gender thing, but it is a gender thing, right? And it’s not saying, poor me because I wasn’t research, I’m saying, like, we are different beings. When I treat a male.
His wiring, when I treat him, is very different the way I treat a female.
Right? A female’s ready to make changes, they’ve had to be flexible, you know, and a man is just wired very differently. Until they have an emergency, are they gonna jump on and really do something? And I’m not talking every man, if you have men that watch this.

Dr. Deb Muth 35:18
I’m tired.

Dr. Holly Donahue 35:18
We’re talking the average person. The other thing that I briefly want to speak into is, like, we have so much research on drugs. Why don’t we have more research on herbs, which actually start the beginning of drugs, often, with the synthetics, right? I would love to see that.

Dr. Deb Muth 35:36
Yeah.

Dr. Holly Donahue 35:37
I see so much crap being taken out of our food, and not that we’re talking about different people, because I don’t want to talk about them online, though it’s out there if you want to find it, creating and putting chicken in vats and feeding it to you. So, I don’t know about you, but I’m never eating chicken at a restaurant, unless I know the farm where my chicken came from. Right. Like, this is real, you guys, like, they are doing genetically modified food.
The other question that I have is America’s such a growing, knowledgeable country, why do we have 1.3 trillion diagnoses and chronic disease?

Dr. Deb Muth 36:11
Yeah.

Dr. Holly Donahue 36:11
And climbing. Yeah. That’s what brings tears to my eyes every time.

Dr. Deb Muth 36:15
What am I saying?

Dr. Holly Donahue 36:16
Say it.

Dr. Deb Muth 36:16
I agree, I agree, and I’m right there with you on the research of women. I just wrote a book called Seen It Last, and when I did the research to see how do we research women and men and how different it is, it’s ridiculous. We just assume women are smaller versions of men. Half the time, women are not even involved in a study. They’re not allowed because of our reproductive abilities, and they don’t want anybody in there at that point.
Which I totally understand. You want to try to, you know, prevent having something happen to somebody if they didn’t know they were pregnant, but that totally excludes us from the research to say, you know, does lisinopril work the same way for men as it does for women? If we don’t have women in the study, we have no idea. And we’ve been dismissed so many times over the years, and it’s like thalidomide, right? Like, hello? And it’s the same type of thing over and over again, year after year for women, and it is not right. It’s what we’re dealing with, but if we don’t all start speaking up, it’s gonna continue to be our legacy.

Dr. Holly Donahue 37:17
Yes, and it’s also, like, if we… even for both genders, if we give a drug, like. that person should understand the drug. Like, I just had somebody been given a drug, they gave Losartan, and then they also got ritorvastatin. They’re like, I’m on a statin, I don’t want to be on a statin, and I’m like, that’s what you were just given.

Dr. Deb Muth 37:39
Yeah.

Dr. Holly Donahue 37:39
And I’m the one who didn’t prescribe it, and I’m not feeling bad for myself, but I’m the one that’s the bearer of the bad news to be like, have you looked at the risks and benefits? You probably need it right now, but then do you also know how difficult it is to come off, like, lisinopril or Losartan?

Dr. Deb Muth 37:59
Right.

Dr. Holly Donahue 38:00
Like, once your body gets used to a lot of those calcium channel blockers, those beta blockers, it’s a lot of rebound blood pressure that you’re gonna be dealing with. So, I feel like the medical world should share that with them, and say, hey, do you want to do lifestyle first? And how about go see a naturopath, or we have a functional medicine practitioner on our team, are you willing to do the work? Unless they’re gonna… unless they’re We’re in an acute situation. And they’re gonna have a myocardial infarction, or congestive heart failure, you know, which, don’t get me started on that diagnosis, like.

Radiologists are like, congestive heart failure is… the wrong diagnosis in so many cases. All that means, you guys, is that your heart isn’t pumping the way that it should be. Why can’t we have different levels? And cardiologists will say the same thing, it’s an awful term.

Dr. Deb Muth 38:55
It is. We have cardiologists… we text a lot of D-dimers post.

Dr. Holly Donahue 39:00
Oh, night.

Dr. Deb Muth 39:01
post the you-know-what, and we have some of them that come back, almost all of them come back high, but some come back really high, like 5 or 6, and we send them to cardiology for a workup, and the cardiologists are like, we don’t care, it’s not high enough for us to do anything with. And I’m like…
It’s five! Are you kidding me? It’s supposed to be less than 1, and we’re not concerned about it? And they’re like, no, we’re not concerned about it. And I’m like, until the person has a stroke, or a heart attack, or has something happen, they’re not doing anything about this stuff.
And as naturopaths, you and I look at this and go, wait a minute, there’s something happening in the body. We need to fix this before we have a big event that occurs. But nobody is looking at that. They don’t care anymore.

Dr. Holly Donahue 39:44
Hmm.

Dr. Deb Muth 39:46
Frustrating.

Dr. Holly Donahue 39:46
so exhaust, you know, I’m not making excuses for them, but, you know, my dad had an amazing primary care physician, and now he stepped out of, being in the medical system, you know? And he went off, and he’s doing, concierge primary care, direct primary care with another female doctor, and I think that was the best thing, because when my dad passed away, how many doctors call your family and wanted to show up for the funeral, and then said to my mom, your daughter, just meaning me, because I happen to.

Dr. Deb Muth 40:25
Have a mess.

Dr. Holly Donahue 40:25
medical license. Of course, my other sisters were amazing love and care and.

Dr. Deb Muth 40:29
Yeah.

Dr. Holly Donahue 40:29
But from a medical perspective, he’d be like, ask… you know, ask her, what can she give him for, like, decreased motility and for constipation? He passed at 91… at 92, you know what I mean? And his body was shutting down, but he had a desire to live. But he also said, like, if it wasn’t for all those supplements and the food that you fed him, and the love that you gave him, he wouldn’t have lived as long as he did, and he might have had a cardiac event. and not just died at home with his lung… I mean, his lungs were… he only had a third of his lung on his left side that was still functioning. That’s not the point. The point is, is when you ask me, why do I do whole body medicine? He had wished he had listened to me years ago about his diabetes, but he was too busy… he was too busy building.

Dr. Deb Muth 41:19
building a.

Dr. Holly Donahue 41:20
Business Entrepreneurs, like we just covered.

Dr. Deb Muth 41:22
Yeah.

Dr. Holly Donahue 41:22
He was too busy making income for his family, and he couldn’t stop, because he had a commitment to be successful in business, and boy, was he. But at what toll did that take him? We never saw him when we were children. We… he knew we loved her, you know what I mean? Right. But there’s a price that you pay exchanging your health for time and your job that you don’t spend time with loved ones, and that’s why I do lifestyle medicine.

Dr. Deb Muth 41:52
Yeah, and that makes… that is so true. I mean, I think that statement is so powerful, because it’s easy for all of us to get busy and get tied up in chasing the dollar and chasing what we want to be known for. And just go, go, go, go, go. But just putting it into that simple framework. That, yes, you can chase that, but you’re giving up these things on the other side, and this is what your life may look like when you are retired, makes a huge difference, because you’ve lost out on so much of that life then, as a result. Yeah.

Dr. Holly Donahue 42:27
Yeah, and then when he got to the point where he was doing really well, he’s like, let’s all go on vacation, let’s… and we’re like, honey, we have jobs.

Dr. Deb Muth 42:34
Yeah, can’t do it now.

Dr. Holly Donahue 42:36
You know? Like, we have to, like, make the time, and then let’s do it, you know what I mean?

Dr. Deb Muth 42:40
Yeah.

Dr. Holly Donahue 42:41
You can’t just, like, up and be like, okay, we’re outta here, like.

Dr. Deb Muth 42:43
Yeah.

Dr. Holly Donahue 42:44
Since we gotta go now, you know.

Dr. Deb Muth 42:45
Yeah, right? We think that someday when we have money, it’s like that, but it isn’t like that, unfortunately.
Well, this has been such a great conversation. I have one last question for you. It’s the question that we ask everyone. If you had an opportunity to sit down with the changemakers in this country for healthcare, what would be the number one thing you would ask them to change?

Dr. Holly Donahue 43:09
The nutrition and how we grow it, and, you know, the toxicity, and the pesticides that are being sprayed, and all the farmers that are really being put out of business, because bigger, faster, you know, we were
we would feed more people by doing this. We have people that are starving every single day, and I… and I just think, like, if we were healthier on that movement, then we would have a healthier culture. And, you know. Everything would flow so much easier.

Dr. Deb Muth 43:43
Yeah, I agree. I think that’s where it has to start, really. Like, we can talk about all these other things that we could change, and yes, it makes great things and great sense, but the foundation has to be solid so people stop getting a lot of these diseases because they’re nutrient deficient and they’re full of toxins and everything else.
That’s how we truly change the world of health and wellness, is nutrition out of the gate.

Dr. Holly Donahue 44:07
Yes, and, you know, with that being connected, I also wish that we could tell people, just because they have this label and diagnosis, that they can heal. as long as they get the foundation and the lifestyle pieces that you and I covered with the nutrition, which goes back to my answer, you don’t have to carry a label and a diagnosis the rest of your life.

Dr. Deb Muth 44:35
Yeah.

Dr. Holly Donahue 44:36
you have to ask yourself, how did I allow this in my body? How did it come in? And then work with practitioners to remove it.

Dr. Deb Muth 44:44
Yeah, that’s often.
So… Dr. Hawley, how can people find you? And you have a big event coming up, so…

Dr. Holly Donahue 44:51
Cheers, man.

Dr. Deb Muth 44:51
information about that with our listeners.

Dr. Holly Donahue 44:53
Thank you so much. So, you can, you can actually find me on, Instagram at Dr. HollyDonoghuend and Facebook, so I’m in both of those, you know, both of those arenas all the time, my team, we’re out posting. And I also, thank you for asking, I also am doing a, summit, where I bring on speakers, which we love to have you sometime, where I bring on speakers, and it’s my give back. And we are hosting a 5-day summit, one day live on the 20th through the 24th, and it’s all about hormones. And we’re saying, like, we’re bringing on these medical detectives as practitioners that are speaking into how your vitality, you know, your hormones are disrupted.
from all the pieces that you’re doing, whether it’s blood sugar, whether it’s your actual hormones, your hunger hormones, and how to actually solve that problem and have the energy and the desire to actually heal yourself. So we’re going to walk everybody on a journey on different arenas that will talk about, really the truth that doctors aren’t talking about, because they don’t share this information. They’re always constantly putting out
And then with that, when we’re going to step into a metabolism reset challenge right after the summit, it’s a 5-day challenge that will go even deeper. And my goal is there’s a lot of people on GLP-1s, Ozempic, Wegovy, Moderna, and all of that, and they really don’t know, A, why they’re on it, they think they’re on it for weight loss, which could be true, but it does have really good benefits that we
We do see.
But do you really have to be it on the rest of your life, right? Or if you’re not on it, and you really want to learn how to balance your metabolism, I’m gonna walk you through 5 days of teaching you all the pieces of the puzzle that I taught about today in a much deeper way, so that at the end of the actual challenge, you’ll have tools that you can actually make changes for yourself.

Dr. Deb Muth 46:57
Oh, that’s awesome. I love that idea. That is a great thing, because people need to learn that. And we do a lot of GLP-1 support, too, but the big, big question that everybody has is, do I have to be on this forever? And the answer is no, as long as you’re using it as a tool
to make the changes that you need to change your metabolism, then you don’t need this forever. But if you’re not making the lifestyle changes, then yes, then you’re going to have to be on it forever, because you haven’t done the work to change it in the first place. So, that sounds awesome. Thank you.

Dr. Holly Donahue 47:27
Yeah, you’re welcome.

Dr. Deb Muth 47:29
Anything else you want to share with our listeners?

Dr. Holly Donahue 47:31
No, I just, you know, I don’t say no, but what I would love everybody to hear is, like.
Natural medicine, and what Dr. Deb and I do, it’s not a magic bullet, but it… all the efforts that you put in to change your life and adjust your nutrition and change your habits, like I talked about in the very beginning, it becomes a ripple effect, and the more people that you bring on board to follow you on natural wellness and healing.
you’re gonna hear comments like, what are you doing? You know what I mean? Your life is better, your sex life is better, your energy is better, your relationships are better, work is easier, there’s more joy in your life. And who doesn’t want to have all that? And it just is putting those pieces together, but you can have that as well. Like, anti-aging is all over the place, and biohacking
But what if we just go back to the basics so you learn how to become your own doctor and, like, what you need and can advocate for yourself? That’s my goal long-term.

Dr. Deb Muth 48:36
I love that, and that is so true. Yeah. Well, thank you so much for joining me.

Dr. Holly Donahue 48:41
Thank you so much for having me, I really appreciate it.

Dr. Deb Muth 48:47
Thank you for joining me today on Let’s Talk Wellness Now. If this episode resonated with you, please share it with someone who could benefit from learning the truth about root cause healing and whole body wellness. A huge thank you to Dr. Holly Donahue for sharing her wisdom with us today, and her clinical expertise. If you want to learn more.
About her, or explore how naturopathic medicine can help you heal from burnout, fatigue, hormonal imbalance, or chronic illness. Visit simplehealthnh.com.
Or you can reach out to Dr. Donahue directly at DrDonahue at SimpleHealthNH.com. We will have those links for you below in the show notes as well. And remember, wellness isn’t just about feeling good. It’s about thriving in every area of your life.
If you’re ready to explore how root cause medicine can help you break free from the symptom chasing, cycle, and build real sustainable health.
Visit Serenityhealthcarecenter.com. And remember, no supplement, no hormone, no protocol can overcome ongoing toxin exposure, chronic stress, poor nutrition, gut dysfunction, and inadequate sleep.
True healing requires your active participation. You have to be willing to address the root causes and change the lifestyle factors that disrupted your health in the first place.
Root cause healing amplifies your body’s natural healing capacity, but you have to create the internal environment where healing can actually happen.
Until next time, I’m Dr. Deb, reminding you to take care of your body, mind, and spirit. Be well, and I’ll see you on the next episode.

The post Episode 261 – Root-Cause Healing and Whole-Body Wellness first appeared on Let's Talk Wellness Now.

Dr. Deb Muth 0:03

What if everything you've been told about getting healthy is backwards?

What if chasing symptoms with pills, procedures, and quick fixes is exactly why you're still sick?

Tired, inflamed, and frustrated.

Today, I'm sitting down with Dr. Holly Donahue, a naturopathic doctor who walked away from corporate burnout to discover the truth.

Your body already knows how to heal. You just need to remove what's blocking it, and give it what it's missing.

If you're done with Band-Aid solutions and ready for real, lasting transformation, this conversation changes everything.

Welcome back to Let's Talk Wellness Now, the show where we uncover the root causes of chronic illness, explore cutting-edge regenerative medicine, and empower you with the tools to heal.

I'm Dr. Deb, your medical detective, and today, we're diving into the hidden truth about whole body wellness, and why treating symptoms will never give you the vibrant health you deserve.

I'm joined by Dr. Holly Donahue, a licensed naturopathic doctor with over two decades of clinical experiencing

Helping high performers heal from burnout, chronic fatigue, hormone imbalance, and stubborn weight issues.

She's the founder of Simple Health, and she's here to share the science-backed approach to root cause healing that addresses your body, mind, and spirit, not just your lab values.

If you or someone you love has been diagnosed with a chronic condition, or is struggling with unexplained symptoms like fatigue, brain fog, hormonal chaos, or chronic inflammation.

This episode is for you. Please share it with them.

So, as usual, grab your cup of coffee, tea, or whatever helps you unwind, settle in, and let's get started on your journey to deeper healing.

And we'll be right back after a word from our sponsor.

All right. So, Dr. Donahue, let's start with the question that's on everyone's mind, right? How did you transition away from corporate and into the world of, naturopath… natural medicine, naturopathic medicine, root cause medicine, all the wonderful terms we're using for this these days?

Dr. Holly Donahue 02:56

Yeah, first of all, thanks for having me, Dr. Debb. I so appreciate it, and that is a beautiful question, and I will share with you my health journey and why I got into this, and…

how I got to do this amazing work, right? Because I always believed, for me, my higher being is God, and it walked right into me, right? Because I was pretty happy in the apparel industry. So, just as you said, I was in the apparel industry, I, my education doesn't really matter, but double, like, marketing and textile marketing, and I was in design, and I was working in design.

from LA to London to the East Coast.

And 2 days after September 11th, to sum it up, I got laid off. Even though I had been pulled out of a job where my vice president of the company was like, I want you to come down here with me, and the apparel industry, you're switching every two to three years. For those that don't know it, that's just how the journey works, and I was known as a changemaker in the field.

And so, here we are two days after September 11th, and I was seeing a naturopath, and I was, let's see, 29 to 30, right? And so, prior to that, the reason why I searched out for a naturopath was because in my teenage years, and…

Up until that time, I was suffering with horrible menstrual cramps and horrible depression, hence why I moved to LA, thinking if I was in the sun all the time, my life would change, which we all do, change our place, change our time, things will change. Had nothing to do with family or roots, but I thought, if I'm around sunshine all the time, I won't be depressed. Well, wherever you go, there you are, because it went with me, right? So I had my foot down to the ground, and I was

just like, I am committed to not living life like this, right?

even at 7 years old, I had strep ear all the time, and my mom's like, we're gonna have your tonsils out, and I'm like, no we're not. And she goes, no, you're gonna feel so much better, no more strep ear. And I'm like, God gave them to me for a reason, you're not taking them out. She's like, okay, like, I was really strong.

And so, let's wind up to 2 days after September 11th. Prior to that, I had started to retake chemistry and biology, because I haven't taken it since my textile years, which was a different chemistry, right? And so, I thought, well, I'll just start and see where it goes, because my naturopath at the time.

Dr. Dadama was like, we need more naturopaths, and I'm like, I'm really good where I am. I love what I do, I love corporate America, I love designing, I love product development.

And he's like, no, no, no, so he kept talking. Well, when this all fell…

And 2 days after September 11th, I raised my hand and I said, God, I hear you. I went off to naturopathic medicine school in my 30s.

And I never looked back, and I just really believe the gift of healing was, put together for me in so many ways. And so, why do I love talking about natural medicine, naturopathic medicine? Because I was not gonna just take an antidepressant, which is what the medical world… they wanted to give me a pill for a nail, that's what I call it. I didn't need to be on birth control. I wasn't sexually active.

Right? So none of that made sense to me. And it wasn't until I really changed my nutrition, began to understand who I am as a person, and what my body really needed, did I heal.

Dr. Deb Muth 06:20

Isn't that amazing? Like, I think so many of us enter into the alternative quote-unquote world.

Because what is happening over here in what is known as the traditional medicine world

isn't working for people, and no one's listening to them, and we just follow the traditional protocol, whether it makes sense or not, this is the protocol, everybody gets it. There's no individuality, no personalization, nothing that happens in that world.

And so, people tend to go looking for that… that uniqueness that natural medicine and naturopaths allow to happen. And that's where true healing actually begins, for so many people.

Dr. Holly Donahue 07:02

Yes, and honestly, once my hormones were healed, hence why I talk about hormones all the time, and my thyroid was healed, and I was eating the right nutrition, and for those of you that are listening, please stop playing with nutrition, like, get on that… get on that connection of what works for you. And I'll be honest, like, none of us as doctors can… we can guide you.

what's really good in eating, but figuring it out for yourself is important. And the other naturopath that I saw.

Never healed me.

I only got so far by just taking supplements and herbs. And I speak that into that, that's why I'm so driven around the foundation of our medicine. I am not just saying this, is your nutrition. And until I changed my nutrition, and I figured out what workouts work best for me, and I took all the toxicity and mucus out of my body, I was just inflamed, and I didn't really

it. I was eating all the wrong foods.

Right? My body can't do searches and simple sugars, hence why I talk about it, and so many people are addicted to sugar, and they deny it.

Dr. Deb Muth 08:11

Yeah.

Dr. Holly Donahue 08:11

It's a comfort food, right? So, I always say, I can't heal you until I fix your nutrition and your sugar, and if that's not something that you're willing to work on with me with love, I am not the right practitioner.

Because I remember it didn't heal me.

Dr. Deb Muth 08:29

Yeah.

I think we forget that nutrition is our medicine, right?

Food is thy medicine. And it's so easy for us to just say, but it's easier to just take 10 supplements than it is to change my diet, cook for the whole family, and then cook for me.

Nutrition is really, really difficult for people, because so much of who we are is born into nutrition, right? All of those family traditions of what we make at Christmas, or Easter, or what do you do for a celebration, when all of that changes, you kind of… you have a loss for things. So how do you work around that with people?

Dr. Holly Donahue 09:12

Yeah, so I look at that as, I'm always suggesting to individuals in all these different celebrations, like, if you're the one, kind of.

that is the pinnacle that's creating the celebrations, could you change that, right? So maybe you always have people over for your children's birthday parties, and you have cake, and, you know, you have a spaghetti dinner, whatever it looks like. I'm not judging, I'm not here to judge, I just know what works, right? Then maybe you get to change that. How about doing an outdoor activity with the children? Maybe choosing to go on a hike to the beach where they're

active.

And then, you know, you do a healthy treat with them, or do we always have to have these celebrations around sugar? And I'm talking America, because I never saw this when I lived in Europe, like, the way it is here, right? Or, as adults, we're celebrating with alcohol all the time, right? I removed sugar and alcohol from my diet years ago just because I knew I just didn't feel good with it. I'm not judging that that's what you need to do.

So, back to your question, the other suggestion I say, if you can with your family, because I know there's all sorts of…

Hidden rules, quiet rules, ways you have to do things to be fit in. First of all, stand up for your own health, so I suggest that. And secondly, how about if you bring something to that meal that you can share with everybody that you know that you can eat? If that doesn't work, I'm pretty sure, I'm pretty confident,...

Dr. Deb Muth

February 2026, 3 million documents released, a network exposed. But here’s what no one is saying
The trauma of trafficking doesn’t end when the victim escapes It doesn’t even end when that survivor’s lifetime. It writes itself into DNA. It alters the stress response of children not yet born. And it creates epigenetic markers that echo through 3, 4, and even 5 generations. This is not a metaphor, this is molecular biology. And if we don’t understand how deeply trauma sees itself. Biologically, genetically, and spiritually, we will never understand why autoimmune disease, addiction, and chronic illness are epidemic in families that carry this hidden history.

Today, we’re going deeper than headlines. We’re going into the cells, the genes, and the soul.

Welcome back to Let’s Talk Wellness Now. We’re here to uncover root causes, explore regenerative medicine, and empower you to heal from the inside out. I’m Dr. Deb, your medical detective, and today we’re confronting one of the most important and least discussed wellness topics of our time.

How the exploitation and trafficking of women and children doesn’t just harm individuals, it damages bloodlines. And if you’re someone who carries an unexplained chronic illness, autoimmune disease, addiction, or trauma that seems to have no clear origin, this episode may finally connect the dots. Grab your cup of tea or coffee, settle in, and let’s go deep into this subject. Can you put an ad sponsor right here before we get started?

Let’s start with what just happened. In February of 2026, the Department of Justice released over 3 million pages of documents related to Jeffrey Epstein. According to The Guardian, on February 2nd, 2026, these files contained allegations that Epstein didn’t just abuse women, he provided them to other powerful men. One accuser identified Harvey Weinstein from a photo lineup.

Describing coercion and payment. Another FBI document described threats of force. Lativia launched a criminal investigation after the files linked Epstein’s network to modeling agencies overseas. But here’s what I need you to understand. As a practitioner who treats trauma survivors, Epstein’s operation was not new. It was ancient. From Mesopotamian slave codes to Roman markets to the transatlantic trade, trafficking has always been about the same thing.

Power, and exploiting vulnerability for profit. The tools change. Private jets instead of ships, social media instead of market squares. But the wound, it’s identical. And that wound… It doesn’t heal when the victim is freed. It embeds itself into biology.

Let me explain what happens when a human being experiences the kind of trauma that trafficking creates. The immediate biological response. When someone is trafficked, their body enters a state of chronic survival mode. The autonomic nervous system, which controls unconscious functions like heart rate, digestion, immune response, it gets locked into a fight or flight. Cortisol, the primary stress hormone, floods the system. At least, at first. This is protective. But when the threat never ends, when abuse is daily, when escape is impossible, cortisol stays elevated for months and even years.

And here’s what chronic cortisol does. It suppresses immune function, making the body vulnerable to infections, cancer, and autoimmune disease. It disrupts the gut microbiome, leading to leaky gut, food sensitivity, and systemic inflammation. It dysregulates hormone production, thyroid sex hormones, insulin, and it creates metabolic chaos. It damages the hippocampus, the part of the brain region responsible for memory and emotional regulation. But it goes deeper than that. Cellular memory, trauma written into our tissues. Research published in the Biological Psychiatry of 2025 and Frontiers in Psychiatry 2025 shows that trauma doesn’t just affect the brain, it reprograms cells throughout the body.

Mitochondria, the energy factories inside every cell, shift from producing ATP energy to producing reactive oxygen species, stress signals. This is why trauma survivors often develop chronic fatigue syndrome. That cortisol, over time, starts to dive down, and eventually can’t be produced when it’s supposed to be during a traumatic episode, and it stays at this low level, creating what we now know as chronic fatigue syndrome.

Inflammatory genes turn on and stay on, even after the threat is gone. This is why we see such high rates of autoimmune disease, lupus, rheumatoid arthritis, MS, inflammatory bowel disease, in trafficking survivors. The fascia, the connective tissue that wraps every muscle and organ, stores trauma physically. This is why survivors develop chronic pain, fibromyalgia, and tension that no amount of massage can release. The body literally remembers the violation at a cellular level.

The ACE study, Childhood Trauma as a Disease Predictor, the CDC’s Adverse Childhood Experiences Study in 2025, showed that 64% of the U.S. adults had experienced at least one ACE abuse. neglect, or household dysfunction. And nearly 1 in 6 has experienced 4 or more. And the data is devastating. The ACE that you have maybe experienced, if you have had this, you have a higher risk for heart disease, stroke, cancer, diabetes, autoimmune disease, depression, suicide, and addiction. Trafficking survivors often score 8, 9, or 10 out of a 10 on the ACE scale. Their bodies are biologically aged by trauma. And according to the VA’s National Center for PTSD, PTSD is associated with excess mortality, meaning survivors die younger, not just from suicide, but from the stress related to chronic disease.

Now, here’s where it gets even more profound. What is epigenetics? Well, your DNA is like a library of instructions, but not every book is open all the time. Epigenetics is the system that decides which genes get turned on. or off, without changing the DNA sequence itself. And here’s the critical discovery. Trauma can change those epigenetic marks, and those marks can be passed to your children. The Science of Inherited Trauma. The studies on the Holocaust survivors and their descendants showed that children and grandchildren of trauma survivors had altered stress hormone regulation, even though they never experienced the original trauma themselves.

Research on famine shows in the Netherlands during World War II, Found that children born to mothers who were pregnant during starvation had higher rates of obesity, diabetes, and heart disease decades later. This happens because stress during pregnancy alters the developing fetus’ stress response system, and when a pregnant woman is trafficked, abused, or living in chronic fear, her elevated cortisol levels cross the placenta, and the baby’s developing brain is bathed in stress hormones. And the child’s HPA access, the stress regulation system, Is programmed for hypervigilance.

The child is born with a biological predisposition to anxiety, depression, autoimmune disease, and addiction. And it doesn’t stop there. That child grows up, and if they have children, their altered stress response can influence the next generation through epigenetic inheritance, and through the environment they create. This is why we see patterns of addiction, autoimmune disease, and mental illness running through families, even when there’s no clear genetic mutation.

It’s not just genetics, it’s inherited trauma written into gene expression. There is also a spiritual dimension to this. There’s something beyond biology here, something that science is only beginning to touch. Survivors often describe feeling disconnected from their bodies, as if their spirit left during the abuse. And never fully returned. This is disassociation, a survival mechanism. But in many healing traditions, somatic therapy, internal family systems, even ancient spiritual practices, there’s recognition that trauma fragments the self.

And healing isn’t just about regulating cortisol or repairing the gut, it’s about reuniting the spirit with the body. It’s about teaching the nervous system that it’s finally safe to be fully present once again. And when that happens, when one person heals that fracture, it changes the trajectory for everyone else who comes after them. So what do we do with this knowledge? Well, first. Trauma-informed root cause medicine. Healing trafficking survivors and their descendants requires more than talk therapy. It requires nervous system regulation, vagal nerve stimulation, somatic experience, breathwork.

Gut healing, repairing the microbiome, addressing that leaky gut, and reducing the inflammation. Hormone balancing, supporting adrenal function, thyroid, and sex hormones, detoxification, clearing accumulated toxins that the stressed body couldn’t process, both physically and emotionally. Nutritional restoration. Replenishing the nutrients depleted by chronic stress. This is functional medicine. This is what I do every day with my team. Second, we need epigenetic reversal, and that is actually possible.

Here’s the hope. Epigenetic marks can be changed. Studies show that meditation therapy, safe relationships, and even nutrition can reverse some of the epigenetic damage caused by trauma. Every time a survivor learns to regulate their nervous system, they’re not just healing themselves, they’re changing what gets passed to the next generation.

Third, we have to speak the truth. Silence protects the perpetrators. Truth-telling breaks generational curses. And every time we name trafficking for what it is, a crime that damages biology, genetics, and spirit, we create the space for healing.

Thank you for going deep with me today on Let’s Talk Wellness Now. If this episode moved you, share it, because healing begins when we stop pretending trauma is only psychological, and we start treating it as a biological, genetic, and spiritual crisis that it truly is. If you or someone you love needs trauma-informed care, visit serenityhealthcarecenter.com or explore our functional medicine platform at venari.com.

Survivors seeking support can reach the National Human Trafficking Hotline at 1-888-373-7888. Join our Seen at Last Facebook group, which is a free community where we support women to be seen at last. I’m Dr. Deb. Take care of your body, mind, and spirit. Be well, and we’ll see you on the next episode.

The post Episode 260 – How Trauma Passes Through Generations: Epigenetics, Trafficking and Chronic Illness first appeared on Let's Talk Wellness Now.

Dr. Deb Muth

February 2026, 3 million documents released, a network exposed. But here's what no one is saying.

The trauma of trafficking doesn't end when the victim escapes.

It doesn't even end when that survivor's lifetime.

It writes itself into DNA. It alters the stress response of children not yet born.

And it creates epigenetic markers that echo through 3, 4, and even 5 generations.

This is not a metaphor, this is molecular biology. And if we don't understand how deeply trauma sees itself.

biologically, genetically, and spiritually, we will never understand why autoimmune disease, addiction, and chronic illness are epidemic in families that carry this hidden history.

Today, we're going deeper than headlines.

We're going into the cells, the genes, and the soul.

Welcome back to Let's Talk Wellness Now. We're here to uncover root causes, explore regenerative medicine, and empower you to heal from the inside out. I'm Dr. Deb, your medical detective, and today we're confronting one of the most important and least discussed wellness topics of our time.

How the exploitation and trafficking of women and children doesn't just harm individuals, it damages bloodlines.

And if you're someone who carries an unexplained chronic illness, autoimmune disease, addiction, or trauma that seems to have no clear origin, this episode may finally connect the dots.

Grab your cup of tea or coffee, settle in, and let's go deep into this subject.

Can you put an ad sponsor right here before we get started?

Let's start with what just happened.

In February of 2026, the Department of Justice released over 3 million pages of documents related to Jeffrey Epstein. According to The Guardian, on February 2nd, 2026, these files contained allegations that Epstein didn't just abuse women, he provided them to other powerful men.

One accuser identified Harvey Weinstein from a photo lineup.

Describing coercion and payment.

Another FBI document described threats of force.

Lativia launched a criminal investigation after the files linked Epstein's network to modeling agencies overseas.

But here's what I need you to understand.

As a practitioner who treats trauma survivors, Epstein's operation was not new.

It was ancient. From Mesopotamian slave codes to Roman markets to the transatlantic trade, trafficking has always been about the same thing.

Power, and exploiting vulnerability for profit.

The tools change. Private jets instead of ships, social media instead of market squares.

But the wound, it's identical.

And that wound… It doesn't heal when the victim is freed. It embeds itself into biology.

Let me explain what happens when a human being experiences the kind of trauma that trafficking creates.

The immediate biological response. When someone is trafficked, their body enters a state of chronic survival mode. The autonomic nervous system, which controls unconscious functions like heart rate, digestion, immune response, it gets locked into a fight or flight.

Cortisol, the primary stress hormone, floods the system. At least, at first. This is protective. But when the threat never ends, when abuse is daily, when escape is impossible, cortisol stays elevated for months and even years.

And here's what chronic cortisol does. It suppresses immune function, making the body vulnerable to infections, cancer, and autoimmune disease. It disrupts the gut microbiome, leading to leaky gut, food sensitivity, and systemic inflammation.

It dysregulates hormone production, thyroid sex hormones, insulin, and it creates metabolic chaos. It damages the hippocampus, the part of the brain region responsible for memory and emotional regulation.

But it goes deeper than that. Cellular memory, trauma written into our tissues.

Research published in the Biological Psychiatry of 2025 and Frontiers in Psychiatry 2025 shows that trauma doesn't just affect the brain, it reprograms cells throughout the body.

Mitochondria, the energy factories inside every cell, shift from producing ATP energy to producing reactive oxygen species, stress signals.

This is why trauma survivors often develop chronic fatigue syndrome.

That cortisol, over time, starts to dive down, and eventually can't be produced when it's supposed to be during a traumatic episode, and it stays at this low level, creating what we now know as chronic fatigue syndrome.

Inflammatory genes turn on and stay on, even after the threat is gone. This is why we see such high rates of autoimmune disease, lupus, rheumatoid arthritis, MS, inflammatory bowel disease, in trafficking survivors.

The fascia, the connective tissue that wraps every muscle and organ, stores trauma physically. This is why survivors develop chronic pain, fibromyalgia, and tension that no amount of massage can release.

The body literally remembers the violation at a cellular level.

The ACE study, Childhood Trauma as a Disease Predictor, the CDC's Adverse Childhood Experiences Study in 2025, showed that 64% of the U.S. adults had experienced at least one ACE abuse.

neglect, or household dysfunction. And nearly 1 in 6 has experienced 4 or more.

And the data is devastating. The ACE that you have maybe experienced, if you have had this, you have a higher risk for heart disease, stroke, cancer, diabetes, autoimmune disease, depression, suicide, and addiction.

Trafficking survivors often score 8, 9, or 10 out of a 10 on the ACE scale. Their bodies are biologically aged by trauma.

And according to the VA's National Center for PTSD, PTSD is associated with excess mortality, meaning survivors die younger, not just from suicide, but from the stress related to chronic disease.

Now, here's where it gets even more profound. What is epigenetics? Well, your DNA is like a library of instructions, but not every book is open all the time. Epigenetics is the system that decides which genes get turned on.

or off, without changing the DNA sequence itself.

And here's the critical discovery.

Trauma can change those epigenetic marks, and those marks can be passed to your children.

The Science of Inherited Trauma.

The studies on the Holocaust survivors and their descendants showed that children and grandchildren of trauma survivors had altered stress hormone regulation, even though they never experienced the original trauma themselves.

Research on famine shows in the Netherlands during World War II,

Found that children born to mothers who were pregnant during starvation had higher rates of obesity, diabetes, and heart disease decades later.

This happens because stress during pregnancy alters the developing fetus' stress response system, and when a pregnant woman is trafficked, abused, or living in chronic fear, her elevated cortisol levels cross the placenta, and the baby's developing brain is bathed in stress hormones.

And the child's HPA access, the stress regulation system, Is programmed for hypervigilance.

The child is born with a biological predisposition to anxiety, depression, autoimmune disease, and addiction.

And it doesn't stop there.

That child grows up, and if they have children, their altered stress response can influence the next generation through epigenetic inheritance, and through the environment they create.

This is why we see patterns of addiction, autoimmune disease, and mental illness running through families, even when there's no clear genetic mutation.

It's not just genetics, it's inherited trauma written into gene expression.

There is also a spiritual dimension to this. There's something beyond biology here, something that science is only beginning to touch.

Survivors often describe feeling disconnected from their bodies, as if their spirit left during the abuse.

And never fully returned.

This is disassociation, a survival mechanism.

But in many healing traditions, somatic therapy, internal family systems, even ancient spiritual practices, there's recognition that trauma fragments the self.

And healing isn't just about regulating cortisol or repairing the gut, it's about reuniting the spirit with the body. It's about teaching the nervous system that it's finally safe to be fully present once again.

And when that happens, when one person heals that fracture, it changes the trajectory for everyone else who comes after them.

So what do we do with this knowledge? Well, first.

Trauma-informed root cause medicine. Healing trafficking survivors and their descendants requires more than talk therapy. It requires nervous system regulation, vagal nerve stimulation, somatic experience, breathwork.

Gut healing, repairing the microbiome, addressing that leaky gut, and reducing the inflammation.

Hormone balancing, supporting adrenal function, thyroid, and sex hormones, detoxification, clearing accumulated toxins that the stressed body couldn't process, both physically and emotionally.

Nutritional restoration. Replenishing the nutrients depleted by chronic stress.

This is functional medicine. This is what I do every day with my team.

Second, we need epigenetic reversal, and that is actually possible.

Here's the hope. Epigenetic marks

can be changed. Studies show that meditation therapy, safe relationships, and even nutrition can reverse some of the epigenetic damage caused by trauma.

Every time a survivor learns to regulate their nervous system, they're not just healing themselves, they're changing what gets passed to the next generation.

Third, we have to speak the truth.

Silence protects the perpetrators. Truth-telling breaks generational curses. And every time we name trafficking for what it is, a...