At some point in ministry, we start confusing busyness for faithfulness. We tell ourselves that exhaustion is just the cost of obedience - that being needed, stretched thin, and constantly available somehow means we’re doing it right. 

But deep down, we know something’s wrong.

In this episode of Life After Ministry, Matt Davis sits down with his longtime friend Andrew Hartman to talk about what happens when time becomes our boss. Andrew shares how his own burnout - marked by real physical breakdown - became the turning point that changed his relationship with time and work forever.

This isn’t a conversation about calendars or to-do lists. It’s about trust, limits, and the grace of learning how to stop before it’s too late. For anyone in ministry who’s running on empty, this one might be preventative - so you never have to live life after ministry.

Most pastors imagine ministry as a lifelong calling, until something shifts - slowly, painfully, or all at once. 

In this episode, Brad Gray and Brad Nelson share their unfiltered stories of leaving pastoral ministry, wrestling through uncertainty, and discovering the faithful presence of God in seasons where nothing made sense. 

Their journeys reveal how transitions can expose hidden wounds, force honest discernment, and ultimately reshape our understanding of calling.

From uprooting a thriving teaching pastor role with no job on the other side, to the quiet unraveling that nearly cost a marriage, both men walk through the tension, grief, and surprising grace that comes when God invites you into a future you can’t yet see. 

And at the center of their healing is a rediscovery of the Lord’s Prayer - not as a childhood memory, but as a daily blueprint for partnering with God.

This conversation is hope for the discouraged, a mirror for the exhausted, and a companion for anyone wondering whether there is life after ministry. There is. And it might be more expansive than you expect.

00:00 – Introductions and the two Brads

Your story is not over. In fact, this may be the first time in years that God finally has the space to show you who you are beyond what you do.

If you’re navigating a transition, facing a forced resignation, preparing for succession, or simply unraveling quietly under the weight of ministry, reach out. You don’t have to make these decisions alone.

Visit https://ministrytransitions.com to schedule a confidential conversation or to give toward a leader who is carrying more than they can name.

And if you want to explore the formative power of the Lord’s Prayer as a companion in this season, engage the resources at https://thelordsprayer.com. They offer a film, a forthcoming episodic series, and a new book designed to walk with you as God leads you into what’s next.

There is life after ministry. And God is already in the future preparing it for you.

If transition feels like free fall, this episode will help you steady your soul and take the next right step.

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00:00 Welcome and background

Before you make the next move, make the wise one. Visit ministrytransitions.com to schedule a confidential call, get transition tools for your board or staff, or give to help another leader walk through theirs with dignity.

To learn more about how pastors can become powerful leadership coaches, visit leadselfleadothers.com or realcoachingsuccess.com. You’ll find tools to help you clarify calling, build a coaching rhythm, and multiply your impact beyond the church walls.

When the role that once fit like a second skin begins to suffocate, what do you do? For Duncan Robinson, it meant stepping away. No scandal. No collapse. Just honesty and courage to say, “I need to sit down and be fed.”

That decision took him from church staff to radio hosting, from the pulpit to row three, and eventually back into ministry with a new clarity. 

Along the way, he discovered how to face failure without fear, how to detach identity from role, and why bi-vocational rhythms might be the healthiest way forward for pastors.

If you’re navigating transition - or helping someone who is - this conversation offers language and hope for what comes next.

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If you’re a pastor or ministry leader facing transition - or walking with someone who is - you don’t have to do it alone. Visit ministrytransitions.com to explore coaching, confidential conversations, and resources designed to help you protect people, preserve purpose, and plan what’s next with wisdom and grace.

To connect with Duncan Robinson, visit DuncanRobinson.net for links to his projects, speaking, and his book Full Phoenix Rising: Real-Time Grace at the Speed of Jesus - a raw and redemptive look at failure, faith, and finding your way back when everything falls apart. You can also find Full Phoenix Rising on Amazon, Target, Walmart, and other major retailers.

If this conversation encouraged you, share the episode with a friend who might need to hear that stepping out of ministry doesn’t mean stepping out of God’s calling - it might just mean walking it out differently.

Ministry employment isn’t just HR. It’s covenant community, stewardship, and public witness. 

In this episode, attorney and former ministry leader John Melcon explains how churches and nonprofits can handle staff transitions without abandoning their values or ignoring real risks.

John shares his own sudden exit from a director role in Christian higher education and how that season led him to serve ministries as legal counsel. 

He outlines why U.S. courts often take a hands-off approach to religious leadership disputes, what that means for pastors and boards, and how to prepare before conflict ever arises.

From “talk about your last day on your first day” to using Christian conciliation instead of civil court, this conversation offers a road map: clarity in writing, compassion in tone, and a process that keeps the mission central.

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When ministry transitions go wrong, the fallout isn’t just legal - it’s spiritual.

And when wise legal counsel is needed, John Melcon brings both legal expertise and a ministry heart.

Quiet fatigue rarely announces itself. It hums under the surface until a crisis forces a decision. 

In this conversation, Marine veteran and Forte co-founder Vineet Rajan reframes care for leaders as mental fitness - a proactive, daily practice that keeps pastors and nonprofit teams clear-headed, resilient, and ready.

We contrast mental fitness with therapy, name the everyday pressures leaders face, and offer accessible rhythms that fit real life. 

You’ll hear why churches are becoming early adopters, how to reduce noise so you can notice what God is saying, and why outcomes - not just usage - should drive board decisions.

If you lead people, steward budgets, or carry a call that feels heavier than it used to, this episode gives you language, guardrails, and next steps to strengthen your team without adding shame or hype.

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When leaders hit quiet fatigue, care starts with community. Ministry Transitions walks with pastors and ministry leaders through seasons of loss, burnout, and change - helping them rediscover clarity and calling. Visit ministrytransitions.com.

For mental fitness solutions, Forte serves both sides of the mission field. Explore getforte.com/faith for Christian organizations, businesses, and nonprofits, or getforte.com for teams in the broader marketplace looking to build resilience and clarity.

When termination happens behind a closed door, the impact lands in the kitchen, the car line, and the kids’ bedrooms. 

In this episode, pastor’s wife Kristen Joy Humiston tells the story of being shut out of the room, hearing “you’re done here,” and driving home past the houses of those who voted yes.

Matt and Marilee name what many spouses carry in silence: rejection before termination, the isolation that follows, and how trauma forms when you have no voice, no choice, and no people. 

They also get practical. What to do on day one. How to breathe, pack, and protect your children. How boards can reduce harm and how churches can care for the whole family, not just the titleholder.

There is life after ministry. It may look different than you imagined. Yet dignity, honest community, and thoughtful planning can close a wound and leave a healed scar. 

This conversation offers language, tools, and hope for spouses, leaders, and boards who want to do hard things better.

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00:00 Cold open and setup

Connect with Matt and the team at MinistryTransitions.com for guidance through terminations, transitions, or succession planning. Explore Kristen’s support groups and coaching at KristenJoyCoaching.com for pastors’ wives and women navigating ministry fallout.

When a beloved role ends, identity gets loud. 

In this candid conversation, Joshua Gordon traces his journey from ministry-adjacent entrepreneur to a surprising new assignment after his business collapsed in COVID. A trusted friend’s hard words, deep prayer, and patient community became “spiritual physio” that restored his sense of self in Christ.

We talk about the gap between intention and impact in church transitions, why being “driven” can hide quiet desperation, and how to hear God’s still small voice before things are literally on fire. 

Josh shares the practical and pastoral moves that protected his marriage, his kids, and his future calling.

If you are a leader facing an ending, a board guiding one, or a pastor recovering from one, this episode offers language, wisdom, and hope. Faithfulness isn’t empire building. It’s walking with Jesus in ordinary choices that shape a lifetime.

If you’re facing a ministry transition - or helping someone through one - visit MinistryTransitions.com to find confidential guidance, resources, and hope for what’s next.

For more from Joshua Gordon and The Lead Pastor, visit here: https://theleadpastor.com/ 

When the New York Times ran with allegations surrounding Willow Creek’s founding pastor, Steve Carter had a choice: keep the machine running or protect the trust of the people in the room. He chose integrity - and walked away from the stage that had defined his career.

In this conversation, Steve names the real costs: the silence inside the institution, the “values higher than the chaos” that guided him, and the morning-after reality that there was no job, no safety net, and no way to control the narrative.

He talks about the anger he absorbed, the outside leaders who showed up, and the therapist’s hard question that kept him from repeating patterns.

But the story doesn’t end in exile. It moves through a real wilderness - grief, breathing, waiting - and into a humbler, healthier life: moving back to the Midwest, choosing place over platform, and becoming the lead pastor at Christ Church. What emerges is a field guide for anyone facing a crisis of integrity in Christian leadership.

If you’re walking through a ministry transition or facing hard decisions about leadership, you don’t have to do it alone. Visit MinistryTransitions.com to explore resources, donate to support a leader in the thick of change, or book a confidential call.

You can also learn more about Steve Carter’s ministry and resources through Christ Church of Oak Brook and by picking up his book Grieve, Breathe, Receive at stevecarter.org/book.

Many pastors find themselves at the end of their ministry career unable to retire - not because they lack calling, but because they lack financial security. Churches often avoid the money conversation, leaving leaders stuck in the pulpit longer than they should be.

In this episode, financial strategist Gabe Pelphrey opens the curtain on why retirement planning for ministry leaders so often gets ignored. He explains the unique challenges pastors face, the role boards must play, and the courageous conversations that make succession possible.

This isn’t just about money - it’s about stewardship, legacy, and ensuring both leaders and churches are prepared for what’s next.

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Retirement should not punish calling. Visit stewarded.io to schedule a strategy session. Build a clear roadmap with your board using tools like 403(b)(9) plans, rabbi trusts, deferred compensation, and retrospective compensation studies so your pastor can finish with dignity and your church stays strong.

If succession or a financial crunch is on the horizon, do not walk it alone. Go to ministrytransitions.com to book a confidential call. We help pastors and boards craft integrity-first transition plans that protect people, steward resources, and prepare your church for what’s next.