Life After Ministry

Some churches find their bylaws only after a pastor announces a departure. Then they discover the documents haven’t been reviewed in decades.

Sheila Bennett would rather help a board ask those questions earlier. With more than twenty years in church finance and operations, she sees governance as part of caring for the people doing ministry.

Sheila joins us to discuss why churches need structures that serve the organization beyond its current leader. 

We talk about choosing board members for more than proximity, understanding a congregation’s relationships, and making sure someone owns the work happening behind the scenes.

There’s also an honest exchange about why pastors avoid this material. We would prefer Leviticus to business paperwork. Sheila explains why she finds purpose in the details we’d gladly hand to someone else.

Key Takeaways

• Review governing documents before a crisis or leadership change makes the questions urgent.
• Build structures that can serve the church beyond a beloved pastor or founding team.
• Choose board members for character and useful perspectives, rather than familiarity alone.
• Church operations require an understanding of relationships as well as practical skills.
• Give capable people responsibility for the work behind the scenes so pastors aren’t carrying every concern.

Chapter Markers

00:00 – The work that helps a church outlast its leader
05:43 – How Sheila found her calling in church operations
10:52 – Why church business takes more than business skills
19:42 – Bylaws, board selection, and practical oversight
28:20 – Staying hopeful and helping churches get organized

Resources

Explore Sheila’s coauthored book, Church, Inc.: Systematic Surgery for Modern Ministry.

Check out Sheila’s ministry at ministrymanager.org

Preparing for a leadership change? Start a confidential conversation at ministrytransitions.com.

Who gets to lead when the founder is still in the room? For David and Jonathan Shibley, that question came with another relationship to protect: father and son.

On Life After Ministry, I talk with them about the succession at Global Advance and the choices that helped it work.

Jonathan served for ten years before becoming president, giving the board time to observe him and ministry partners time to know him. David continued serving while publicly supporting Jonathan's leadership.

We also discuss the pressure of comparison, the weight of becoming responsible for other people's livelihoods, and what their wives experienced along the way.

For a board preparing its own leadership handoff, this conversation gives an honest look at the preparation and personal care that a healthy succession requires.

Key Takeaways

• Give the board time to assess readiness. Jonathan's last name came with expectations. Years of service gave the board an opportunity to observe his work before appointing him president.
• Prepare people for the relationship as well as the announcement. Staff and ministry partners had opportunities to see David and Jonathan work together before the presidency changed hands.
• Give the successor room to lead differently. David affirmed Jonathan publicly and kept their disagreements between them, helping people understand whose leadership to follow.
• Ask what the family will carry. Travel demands and conversations at home affected their wives differently. Each family needed room to name what worked for them.
• Plan for meaningful life after the role. The board and Jonathan addressed David and Naomi's financial future, and David continued serving through writing and other ministry work.

Chapter Markers

00:00 A father-son succession worth learning from
01:21 How the possibility of succession began
06:22 Serving without a promised title
08:38 The three envelopes story
11:13 Preparing stakeholders and releasing authority
16:31 Giving a successor opportunities to learn
19:08 Following a father everyone knows
21:06 The weight of becoming president
27:07 Holding a ministry and an identity with humility
31:17 What their wives and families carried
36:10 When the founder remains involved
38:56 Meaningful ministry after the presidency
44:07 The work of Global Advance

Global Advance:
https://globaladvance.org/

Global Advance podcasts:
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/channel/global-advance-podcasts/id6445826567

Ministry Transitions:
https://ministrytransitions.com/

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The church has a plan for who’s preaching next Sunday. Who’s checking on the pastor’s family on Monday?

For episode 100, our team at Ministry Transitions - Bill Tom, Matt Davis, Noe Rivera, and Ron Henry - talk about what has surprised us, what still breaks our hearts, and why we keep hearing, “I wish we’d found you sooner.”

Today, we get to talk with people who are asking “What now?” and “What’s next?” We also help the boards and leaders making hard decisions that will affect a family long after the announcement is over.

We talk about caring for spouses and kids, the humility to ask for help, and the moments when somebody begins to see a future again. 

After 100 episodes, we believe more strongly than ever that the church should know how to say goodbye without destroying people.

Key Takeaways

• A leader’s transition affects their spouse, children, and the wider community. Care for the family needs to be part of the plan.
• Boards need clear responsibilities and preparation before a difficult decision puts those gaps on display.
• Humility and coachability give leaders room to receive help and consider what comes next.
• Losing a ministry role can shake your identity. Relationships, meaningful work, and simple moments of joy can help you see beyond that loss.
• Old wounds deserve care, too. You can ask for help even when the transition happened years ago.

Chapter Markers

00:00 – The hole jumper and why we started
10:34 – What surprised us about this work
22:34 – Humility, hope, and life beyond a role
30:08 – What boards and families need during transition
43:34 – Hard goodbyes, old wounds, and a way forward

Resources

Facing a transition or helping someone through one? Visit ministrytransitions.com to start a confidential conversation.

To help provide care for a ministry leader who can’t afford it or lacks support, visit the website to make a donation.

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Why is it so hard to let go of a ministry you love before something forces the decision? 

Robin Fuller knows firsthand. After more than 23 years in pregnancy center ministry, she burned out and heard that only about 10 percent of ministry leaders finish well.

She decided to be part of that 10 percent. Robin lifted the mantle off her shoulders in front of her board and walked through a four-year succession plan that started with a simple "Things I Do" document.

Matt and Robin talk about why founders struggle most, how a poverty mindset keeps leaders in the seat too long, and why outgoing leaders need to step away for at least six months. Robin also shares her new book, Finish Well: Succession Planning for the Ministry You Love.

1. Succession starts long before you leave. Robin spent four years working with her board so the ministry could continue without a blip.

2. Write down what you actually do. A simple "Things I Do" list shows what to release, what to delegate, and what the next leader will need.

3. Know what will be missing when you are gone. Robin knew finances were not her gift, so she looked for a successor who was strong where she was not.

4. Pay and plan for your people. Fair pay and retirement planning keep leaders from staying too long just because they cannot afford to leave.

5. Give your successor room. Robin now encourages every outgoing leader to stay away for at least six months and to hand pride back to the Lord.

00:00 - Why Letting Go Is So Hard

Robin's story, burnout, and why only about 10 percent of ministry leaders finish well.

06:58 - The "Things I Do" Document

The simple list that showed Robin what to release and how to restructure her role.

12:10 - Why Leaders Stay Too Long

Founders, the poverty mindset, and building a healthy compensation philosophy.

20:19 - Stepping Away Well

The six-month rule, keeping staff through the handoff, and wrestling with pride.

27:30 - Finish Well: The Book

Twelve practical steps for ministry leaders and boards, plus Robin's masterminds.

If you are navigating a ministry transition, visit Ministry Transitions to explore resources or start a confidential conversation.

Get Robin Fuller's book Finish Well: Succession Planning for the Ministry You Love and learn about her coaching and succession planning mastermind groups at robinfuller.coach. The book is also available on Amazon.

Connect with Robin on Facebook and LinkedIn.

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Anthony Barton was a successful business owner when a trust attorney asked what his family mission statement was - not his business one.

That question pushed him beyond leaving a gift toward building a legacy, and within 90 days he and his family were serving in Swaziland.

Cancer later clarified the shift. Anthony sold his company, entered seminary, and now coaches Christian entrepreneurs through Convene.

In this conversation he shares frameworks for pausing and pivoting, caring for people as image-bearers, and looking for God's providence in disruption.

6. KEY TAKEAWAYS

1. A gift and a legacy aren't the same thing. Anthony's trajectory changed when he began thinking about what his family could build together for God rather than simply what he could someday leave behind.

2. God can use disruption to clarify calling. Anthony describes cancer as brutal, but also as a season that brought unusual clarity about where his life needed to go next.

3. You cannot pivot well if you never pause. Healthy leaders and organizations stop long enough to evaluate what is happening before they change direction.

4. People are not resources. Christian leadership should see people as individuals made in the image of God, not simply inputs for organizational productivity.

5. Providence may be the most important P. In business, ministry, transition, and suffering, Anthony keeps returning to one question: Where is God's providence in all that we do?

7. CHAPTER MARKERS

00:00 - Welcome Anthony Barton

Matt introduces Anthony and begins with the major turning point in 2013.

00:47 - Gift or Legacy?

A trust attorney asks Anthony a question that changes how he thinks about what he will leave his family.

07:59 - The Next Disruption: Cancer

A cancer diagnosis reshapes Anthony's understanding of life, calling, and what he wants to build.

13:15 - Protect, Pause, and Pivot

Anthony shares leadership priorities beyond profit and productivity, including pause and pivot.

23:17 - The Eight F's Diagnostic

Anthony introduces a simple framework for understanding the people you lead beyond what they produce.

8. RESOURCES

If you’re navigating a ministry transition, visit Ministry Transitions to explore resources or start a confidential conversation.

To learn more about Anthony Barton and his work with Christian business leaders, visit Anthony Barton at Convene.

You can also explore Convene.

Resources:

Ministry Transitions

Anthony Barton at Convene

Convene

What happens when trust breaks inside a church, nonprofit, or leadership team?

Dr. Rob McKenna explains why trust is more than a feeling, how leaders can rebuild it after failure, and why succession is really the transfer of trust.

This conversation explores emotional maturity, candor, vulnerability, blind spots, competence, reliability, and the three questions every team member is asking: Do I matter? Are you telling me the truth? Do I belong here?

• Trust has identifiable drivers, including candor, competence, reliability, emotional maturity, and concern for others.
• Nearly half of employees experience their workplace as a “jungle of trust.”
• Competence matters, but competence alone does not make someone a trusted leader.
• Rebuilding trust requires responsibility, self-awareness, grace, and continual repair.
• Succession is more than transferring a role; it is transferring trust into a team and organizational culture.
• Leaders must create conditions where people can tell the truth and receive difficult feedback.
• Every team member is asking: Do I matter? Are you telling me the truth? Do I belong here?

00:00 – Succession as the transfer of trust
01:23 – Introducing Dr. Rob McKenna
02:15 – Why trust is difficult in ministry and nonprofit organizations
06:04 – The State of Trust at Work
08:34 – Signs that trust is missing
10:25 – Why competence alone is not enough
14:19 – What it means to be a whole leader
18:00 – Handling difficult conversations during transition
20:00 – Succession and the transfer of trust
24:51 – How leaders rebuild trust after failure
28:34 – Blind spots and meaningful change
32:44 – What individuals can do in a jungle of trust
35:57 – How organizations can begin rebuilding trust
39:00 – Closing thoughts and resources

Visit MinistryTransitions.com if a leadership transition is exposing cracks in trust. To learn more about Dr. Rob McKenna’s work, Whole Leaders, Wild Trust, and WiLD Leaders’ tools, visit wildleaders.org.

Most ministry leaders expect to decide when they step away. Dennis Atwood never had that opportunity.

After serving churches for nearly three decades, Dennis was diagnosed with early-onset Parkinson's disease. He quietly carried the diagnosis for years before the progression of the disease forced him to step away from the pastorate he loved. 

In this deeply honest conversation, Dennis reflects on grief, identity, suffering, and why choosing gratitude isn't about denying pain but discovering God's faithfulness in the middle of it.

• Unexpected health challenges can reshape both ministry and identity.
• Grief is a natural part of leaving a calling you deeply love.
• Gratitude isn't the absence of suffering but a response to God's faithfulness within it.
• Ministry leaders need purpose beyond the title they hold.
• God often brings deep spiritual formation through seasons we would never choose.

00:00 Dennis' pastoral journey and ministry background

01:45 An early Parkinson's diagnosis changes everything

03:30 Why Dennis kept his diagnosis private for years

07:45 Telling the church and preparing for transition

11:00 Missing ministry more than expected

13:15 Becoming a caregiver and navigating family transition

14:30 Holy discontent and living with purpose

16:20 Choosing gratitude through suffering

20:00 The dark night of the soul and spiritual formation

25:30 Encouragement for leaders whose ministry ended unexpectedly

If you're facing a ministry transition or unexpected life change, start a conversation with a specialist at Ministry Transitions. Learn more about Dennis and his book Choosing Gratitude at Market Square Books.

Missionaries spend years preparing to go to the field, but few are prepared for what it feels like to come home.

After serving six years in Germany, Nate and Brittany Bruns share the unexpected challenges of returning to the United States, navigating reverse culture shock, raising third-culture kids, and rebuilding community.

Ultimately, they discovered God was calling them to live as missionaries in their own country. 

Their story offers practical encouragement for missionaries, churches, and anyone walking through an unexpected ministry transition.

• Reverse culture shock can be more difficult than moving overseas.
• Missionary transitions affect spouses, children, and the entire family.
• God often prepares leaders for future seasons long before they understand why.
• Returning missionaries bring valuable wisdom that can strengthen the local church.
• Waiting on God is an active posture of trust, not passive inactivity.

00:00 Job loss, the desert season, and God's unexpected call to Germany

04:30 Reaching a post-Christian culture through relationships

07:15 When God said it was time to come home

11:15 Reverse culture shock and becoming strangers in your own country

16:00 Helping third-culture kids navigate transition

20:15 How churches can better care for returning missionaries

23:30 What America can learn from post-Christian Europe

26:45 Financial transitions and rebuilding support

30:00 Waiting on God and discerning what's next

34:00 The Bruns Tribe and engaging the spiritually disengaged

36:30 Encouragement for missionaries in transition

If you're navigating a ministry transition, we'd love to help. Start a conversation with a specialist at Ministry Transitions. Learn more about Nate and Brittany's ministry at The Bruns Tribe.

Few ministry leaders expect the end of their pastoral chapter to unfold differently than they imagined. Yet for many, transition arrives carrying both grief and unexpected opportunity.

In this honest conversation, Scott Sauls reflects on stepping away after more than 30 years of pastoral ministry, processing the loss of a role he loved, recovering from work addiction, and discovering a new calling shepherding high-capacity leaders. 

Along the way, he offers wisdom about identity, friendship, reconciliation, and trusting God when the future feels uncertain.

00:00 Scott's ministry journey and pastoral background

02:20 An unexpected transition from pastoral ministry

05:00 Grief, relief, and leaving a church you love

07:00 Confronting work addiction through recovery

09:30 Is Scott still a pastor?

11:00 The birth of the Sycamore Community

16:30 Shepherding leaders outside the local church

18:30 The impact of ministry transitions on spouses and families

21:00 Loving across the lines of difference

27:00 The Mercy King and God's relentless love

If you're navigating a ministry transition, start a conversation with a specialist at Ministry Transitions. Learn more about Scott's work at Scott Sauls.

Founder transitions are some of the most difficult moments in ministry leadership, but they don't have to end poorly.

After leading the church he planted for 27 years, Keith Spurgin shares the lessons he learned about succession, feedback, sabbaticals, and letting go with confidence. 

He also reflects on the leadership mistakes he nearly made during COVID and how stepping away for a year ultimately prepared both him and his church for a healthy transition.

00:00 Introduction and Keith's ministry journey

00:45 Nearly derailing a succession plan during COVID

01:45 Why handing leadership to a team changed everything

06:45 Building trust before succession

07:45 Why Keith stayed away for six months after stepping down

09:00 Lessons from an unexpected year-long sabbatical

15:20 Why every leader needs honest feedback

18:15 Processing life after ministry

24:00 The Growth Resourcing Group

26:00 Unknown: Finding Connection in a Disconnected World

27:30 Why Keith's next book is about finishing well

Preparing for a leadership transition? Start a conversation with a specialist at Ministry Transitions. Learn more about Keith's leadership resources at Keith Spurgin.