Life After Ministry

By Matt DavisBusiness Religion & Spirituality Christianity Non-Profit

Life After Ministry episodes

August 26, 2025Starting Scared: Why You're More Ready Than You Think (featuring Holly Tate)
What if waiting until you’re ready keeps you from ever starting?
In this episode of Life After Ministry, Matt Davis sits down with Holly Tate, founder of The Ready Network, to talk about leadership, courage, and stepping into the unknown.
Holly shares her own story of transition - from years at Vanderbloemen, to joining Leadr, to launching her own work helping leaders and teams move from stuck to unstuck.
Along the way, she opens up about fear, the myth of readiness, and how emotional intelligence shapes the future of ministry leadership.
For pastors, boards, and ministry leaders wrestling with change, this episode offers both empathy and clarity: you don’t have to have it all figured out. You just need the courage to take the next step.
Key Takeaways
Why emotional intelligence often outweighs skills in ministry hiring.
The unique challenges of church staffing versus corporate staffing.
Holly’s hardest transition and what it taught her about calling.
How the Ready Framework moves leaders from chaos to clarity.
Why starting scared is better than never starting at all.
The “Yes Barometer” that keeps teams from being derailed by new ideas.
How transformation requires courage, vulnerability, and faith.
Chapter Markers
00:00 – Matt introduces Holly Tate
01:30 – Early leadership influences and church impact
05:30 – Lessons from staffing and hiring in ministry
08:50 – Transition to Leader and lessons from 2020
15:10 – Starting scared: email, podcast, and new ventures
21:00 – The Ready Framework explained
26:45 – Why teams need the Yes Barometer
29:30 – Becoming ready by doing
Next Steps
Learn more resources for ministry transitions at MinistryTransitions.com
Explore Holly’s coaching and clarity framework at TheReadyNetwork.com
34 min
August 19, 2025Ministry Transitions Nobody Prepares You For (featuring Tim Stevens)
Every ministry transition comes with both a push and a pull. Sometimes you’re drawn toward a new calling. Other times you simply know you can’t stay.
For Tim Stevens, those moments have shaped four decades of leadership in the church - and given him a front-row seat to hundreds of leaders navigating their own endings and beginnings.
In this conversation, Tim shares candidly about untangling his identity from the church he helped build, why pastors often stay too long, and how to navigate the grief and uncertainty that come with leaving.
From decades at Granger Community Church to crisis leadership at Willow Creek during COVID, Tim has lived through seasons that tested both his loyalty and his leadership instincts.
Now, through Leading Smart, he walks pastors and boards through governance challenges, succession planning, and leadership transitions.
Tim offers practical wisdom for both leaders in the second chair and those tasked with guiding major shifts - always with the reminder that ministry endings can be done in ways that protect people, preserve purpose, and prepare for what’s next.
Key Takeaways
The “push and pull” dynamic is present in every ministry transition.
Identity can become dangerously intertwined with a role - separation is painful but necessary.
Pastors often stay longer than they should due to loyalty, finances, or lack of vision for life after ministry.
Succession planning must start years in advance to avoid crisis moments.
Governance structures that worked for a smaller church may need major revision as the church grows.
Churches rarely have systems in place to care for staff after terminations or transitions.
Healthy endings require intentionality, outside support, and a willingness to let go.
Chapter Markers
00:00 – Pickleball, Notre Dame, and the start of the conversation
02:29 – Matt’s transition season and early connection with Tim
03:17 – Tim’s 40 years in ministry and five major transitions
06:55 – Leaving Granger: identity, co-dependence, and the year-long decision
13:06 – Lessons from Vanderbloemen: big vs. small church transitions
15:17 – Leading through crisis at Willow Creek during COVID
18:49 – The birth of Leading Smart and the work Tim does today
24:36 – The state of the American church and Gen Z trends
26:20 – Why pastors aren’t ready for succession - and how to prepare
28:33 – Outplacement and caring well for staff you have to let go
32:21 – How to connect with Tim and Leading Smart
If you’re in a season of transition - or see one on the horizon - visit MinistryTransitions.com to connect, give, or book a confidential call. And explore Tim’s work at LeadingSmart.com for coaching, consulting, and resources your church can put into action right now.
37 min
August 12, 2025Absolute Best Practices of Nonprofit Boards (featuring Dr. Michael Anthony)
What if the health of your ministry depends more on your board than you think? Dr. Michael Anthony has spent 40 years in boardrooms - as a member, chair, consultant, and C-suite leader - and he’s seen what works and what breaks ministries apart.
In this candid conversation, Dr. Anthony unpacks common mistakes boards make, the unseen cost of poor governance, and the simple practices that lead to longevity and mission health.
From defining lanes to using a “log of motions,” from succession planning to EQ, he explains why leadership transitions succeed - or fail - long before the public ever sees it.
And he gets personal, sharing the story of his most painful ministry transition, the “dark night of the soul” it brought, and how God restored his joy and purpose.
Whether you’re a ministry leader, board member, or walking through a transition, this episode will give you tools to strengthen your leadership and hope for what’s next.
Key Takeaways
Why lack of proper orientation is one of the most common board failures.
How a “log of motions” can prevent repetitive mistakes and clarify focus.
The three duties of board members: care, loyalty, and obedience.
Why clear role boundaries prevent dysfunction between boards and staff.
Succession planning as a regular board discipline, not a crisis reaction.
The critical role EQ plays in leadership longevity.
How God can use painful transitions for deeper growth and joy.
Chapter Markers
00:00 – Welcome & backstory with Dr. Michael Anthony
01:11 – Why this book on nonprofit boards
02:18 – Common causes of board dysfunction
05:24 – The onboarding process done right
07:43 – What’s a “log of motions” and why it matters
09:48 – The three duties of every board member
14:36 – Board size, terms, and rotation
18:04 – How to transition a board member off gracefully
20:36 – When to resign from a board for unity’s sake
24:17 – Role of the board chair & relationship with CEO
31:09 – Using ongoing board training to stay healthy
32:11 – Succession planning without personal attack
34:39 – How boards can handle leadership exits well
38:43 – Accountability, care, and EQ in board leadership
43:54 – What’s at stake if boards are neglected
46:52 – Differences between church and nonprofit boards
49:52 – Growing through painful ministry transitions
57:52 – How to connect with Dr. Anthony
If you’re walking through a ministry transition - or know someone who is - you’re not alone. Connect with us at ministrytransitions.com for coaching, resources, and a path forward. To reach Dr. Michael Anthony directly, email [email protected] or [email protected].
1 hr 2 min
August 05, 2025Positioned for This: Succession, Calling, and the Next Chapter (featuring Ron Henry)
What happens when a leader transitions not just into a new role - but into their calling?
In this episode, Matt Davis introduces Ron Henry, the newly appointed Chief Succession Officer at Ministry Transitions. Ron brings decades of experience in executive placement and career development, but his deeper calling?
Helping leaders find where God wants them next.
This isn’t just a career conversation - it’s a soul-level journey.
Ron shares raw stories of failure, fear, and faith, revealing what makes a transition succeed or fall apart.
Whether you're facing a career shift, retirement, or leading an organization through change, this episode is packed with wisdom you need now - not someday.
If you’ve ever asked, “What’s next for me?” - this conversation is your next step.
Key Takeaways
From Music to Ministry: Ron’s career in music and executive search wasn’t random - it was preparation for ministry impact.
The Power of NetWeaving: True connection isn’t just networking - it’s purposeful relationship building.
Great Fit vs. Good Fit: Success isn’t just about skills. Cultural and spiritual alignment make all the difference.
Why Transitions Fail: Fear, pride, and desperation can sabotage a move. Wisdom, patience, and community bring peace.
Succession is Spiritual: Planning for what’s next isn’t just smart - it’s biblical stewardship.
Community Over Ego: Millennials’ community-first mindset gives Ron hope for the church’s future.
Finishing Strong: Leaders must not cling to identity in a title. True legacy comes from passing the torch well.
Chapter Markers
00:00 – Welcome + Big Announcement: Ron joins Ministry Transitions as Chief Succession Officer
01:05 – Ron’s Journey: From the music industry to executive search to ministry
02:38 – NetWeaving Defined: The art of connecting people with purpose
03:36 – What Makes a Great Fit?: Beyond resumes - finding calling and chemistry
05:25 – Why Transitions Fail: The danger of pride and panic hires
07:12 – Building vs. Self-Focus: Healthy transitions prioritize relationship
07:59 – Why Now?: Ron’s fourth quarter and finishing strong
09:28 – What CSO Really Means: The responsibility behind the title
10:52 – Where the Church Misses It: Lack of awareness and training in transitions
12:54 – Leaders Who Avoid Succession Planning: Fear, pride, and identity traps
14:19 – Joshua and Moses: Biblical blueprint for succession
15:40 – The Moment Ron Lives For: Seeing someone discover God’s purpose
17:40 – Why Millennials Give Him Hope: Community, transparency, and change
19:51 – Living Water: Why input must be matched with output
21:14 – Mentors + Influencers: The people who poured into Ron
24:38 – To the Board Members: What you're really accountable for
26:44 – How to Reach Ron: Email and conversations that start with coffee
28:00 – Final Words: Linking arms for Kingdom impact

If you’re in ministry and facing a career shift, don’t walk that road alone. Ministry Transitions exists to walk with you - through the letting go and into what’s next. Whether you're a pastor, a board member, or a nonprofit leader, now is the time to steward your transition well.
Visit ministrytransitions.com to access resources, connect with Ron, or schedule a confidential conversation today.
30 min
July 29, 2025Balancing the Business Brain and the Pastoral Heart (featuring Dave Fletcher)
What do scuba diving, salary spreadsheets, and severance packages have in common? According to David Fletcher - everything.
In this episode, Matt sits down with the founder of xPastor and longtime executive pastor, David Fletcher, to talk about the messy, complicated, and deeply human work of leadership transitions in the church.
They unpack the real cost of bad transitions - not just in dollars, but in broken trust.
Dave shares stories from his 30+ years in ministry, including firing people he loved, navigating church politics without losing his soul, and why a generous severance might be the best culture-shaping tool a church has.
You'll also hear how he and his wife built a thriving marriage in the middle of ministry chaos, and why their daily Starbucks date is sacred.
It's honest. It's wise. It’s surprisingly funny. And it’s a masterclass for anyone leading people, especially in the church.
Key Takeaways
The Business Brain + Pastor’s Heart: Every ministry decision is both relational and organizational. You need both instincts.
Why Fit Matters More Than Failure: Most terminations aren’t about incompetence - they’re about misalignment.
The $300,000 Mistake: Dave breaks down the actual financial cost of a poor staff transition.
Tell the Truth Without Telling Everything: How to communicate firings to staff and congregation without gossip or spin.
Marriage and Ministry: Why laughing, insider jokes, and iced tea matter more than most leadership books.
Give It Away: Why Dave gives away nearly everything on XPastor.org - and what it’s doing for churches worldwide.
Chapter Markers
00:00 – Intro & How Greek (Yes, Greek) Led Dave into Ministry
02:30 – The Wild Ride from Kids Ministry to XP
04:45 – Why the Executive Pastor Role Is All-In
06:30 – Letting People Go with Dignity
08:15 – Calculating the Real Cost of Bad Transitions
12:45 – How to Communicate a Termination (Without Creating a Firestorm)
15:30 – What’s Changed in the Church (Spoiler: Everything)
18:00 – Should Every Pastor Be Bivocational Now?
22:00 – Health, Marriage, and the Art of Insider Jokes
26:00 – Behind the Madness of the XPastor Seminar
28:45 – Fair Salaries and Why They Matter
32:00 – The Goal: Fully Enjoy God
If you’re navigating a leadership transition or just want to do ministry with more clarity, courage, and peace - check out the free resources at ministrytransitions.com. And for coaching, salary tools, or to attend the next XPastor Seminar, visit xpastor.org. It’s the guide you wish you had years ago.
36 min
July 22, 2025"Ministry Didn't End, It Just Moved" (featuring Josh Taylor)
What if the scariest thing about leaving ministry wasn’t the loss of your job - but the loss of your identity?
In this episode, Matt sits down with Josh Taylor, former executive pastor turned chief marketing officer, who opens up about what it’s really like to step off the platform and into the unknown.
From twelve years of trusted leadership in a growing church to a surprising turn through a university layoff and a marketing agency for car washes, Josh’s story is full of quiet pivots, faithful risk-taking, and unexpected grace.
But this isn’t just about changing careers. It’s about the slow death of pride, learning to hear God's voice outside the church walls, and becoming the kind of husband, father, and friend you were always meant to be.
If you’ve ever wondered what ministry looks like when your title disappears - or felt a holy nudge toward “something more” - this conversation will meet you right where you are.
Key Takeaways
Why identity is one of the hardest things to untangle when leaving ministry
How Josh navigated an unexpected layoff - and why it turned into one of the best days of his life
What it looks like to still live out ministry in a secular workplace
How to listen well, talk honestly with your spouse, and step into an unknown future with trust
The surprising truth about being a present dad (and why the phone isn’t the only distraction)
Chapter Markers
00:00 – Josh's journey into ministry and long tenure as executive pastor
04:30 – Lessons from staffing, transitions, and team dynamics
07:25 – When boredom, burnout, and frustration signal it’s time to go
12:00 – Why Josh and his wife stepped away from their home church after resigning
17:00 – A safe landing at a university… and an unexpected layoff
19:30 – The power of a spouse’s words during a pivotal moment
22:50 – From pastor to car wash CMO: how to make sense of an unexpected calling
28:00 – How Josh stays present as a father and what he wants his son to remember
31:00 – Advice for leaders who feel called to step out but don’t know where to start

If you’re wrestling with what’s next after ministry, you don’t have to figure it out alone. Visit MinistryTransitions.com to find practical support and a team who’s walked this road too.
And be sure to follow Josh Taylor on Instagram at @joshtaylor.guide for thoughtful reflections on leadership, fatherhood, and life after ministry.
37 min
July 15, 2025Faithly and the Future of Ministry Connection (featuring Alicia Lee)
Alicia Lee didn’t leave ministry. She left Wall Street.
After nearly two decades at Goldman Sachs, Alicia was managing a massive trading floor and rubbing shoulders with IPO titans. She loved the fast pace. She was good at it.
And then God pulled the plug. A missed promotion became a divine pivot - and what followed was not a sabbatical, but a startup.
In this episode, we dive deep into Alicia’s unlikely journey from investment banking to launching Faithly, a digital ecosystem for ministry leaders - built not to replace community, but to amplify it.
She opens up about her hustle, her heartbreak, and her unshakeable sense of calling.
If you’ve ever wrestled with identity in a transition, if you’ve ever been tempted to white-knuckle your way to the next thing, or if you’re still unsure what ministry looks like outside the walls of the church - this conversation will hit home.
Alicia’s story isn’t just about leaving a job. It’s about finding your voice when your title disappears.
Key Takeaways:
God uses closed doors as clear signs to redirect us into new assignments.
Your calling may not change - but your context can. You might already be “in ministry” and not even know it.
Faithly is filling a gap for pastors and ministry leaders left out of traditional professional networks like LinkedIn.
Slow growth is still real growth. There’s value in patient building and prioritizing soul care over speed.
Transitions can tempt us to over-identify with productivity, but our identity is not in what we do - it’s in whose we are.
Chapter Markers:
00:00 – From Wall Street to the ministry: Alicia’s surprising career shift
03:30 – The promotion that didn’t come - and what God did instead
06:45 – The vision behind Faithly: Why ministry leaders need their own platform
09:50 – Why LinkedIn doesn’t work for ministry - and what makes Faithly different
14:40 – Bringing Wall Street hustle into the startup world
17:00 – Juggling a tech startup and raising three kids
21:00 – Redefining identity after leaving a high-powered career
24:45 – Building slowly: Why Faithly is growing at the speed of trust
30:00 – What’s next for Faithly and how ministry leaders can get involved
If you’re a ministry leader in transition, don’t navigate it alone. Visit ministrytransitions.com for guidance, coaching, and care to help you land well.
And if you're ready to connect with others who get it - people who are walking the same road - join the growing network at faithly.co. It’s not just a platform. It’s your new ministry ecosystem.
36 min
July 08, 2025Redeployed, Not Retired (featuring Jon Talbert)
What do you do when ministry success comes at the cost of your soul?
In this episode, we sit down with Jon Talbert - pastor, coach, and co-founder of Forte - to talk about the quiet unraveling that often happens behind the scenes in leadership.
Jon has led at the highest levels of church and nonprofit work, but somewhere along the way, he realized he was losing himself in the process. What followed wasn’t a dramatic exit - but a deliberate shift. A reckoning. A redefinition of calling.
If you’ve ever questioned your role, your rhythm, or even your relevance in ministry, this conversation will hit close to home.
Jon gets honest about burnout, identity, and why courage sometimes looks like letting go.
This isn’t just about recovering from ministry. It’s about discovering what’s next - with less fear and more freedom.
Key Takeaways
What most leaders miss about the difference between calling and identity
Why burnout isn’t always loud - and how to recognize it early
The real cost of avoiding your own growth
How to lead with clarity when the crowd is gone
What “editing your life” looks like in a post-ministry season
Chapter Markers
00:00 – Jon’s early ministry story
06:12 – From platform to pressure: the silent drift
14:45 – Burnout and the addiction to being needed
21:08 – Risk, honesty, and what it really means to lead well
29:17 – How Forte walks with leaders in transition
36:30 – Wrestling with faith after leaving ministry
41:40 – Final thoughts: courage over comfort

If you’re facing a leadership shift, you don’t have to do it alone. Start a conversation at ministrytransitions.com.
Follow Jon Talbert on LinkedIn
Learn more about his work at getforte.com
And explore their support for faith leaders at getforte.com/faith
52 min
March 18, 2025The Way of Interruption (featuring Bill Simmons)
Bill Simmons thought he was in control - until a child soldier in the Congo held him at gunpoint. In that moment, as the AK-47 clicked into place, Bill realized the terrifying truth: control was an illusion.
Years later, as the CEO of a global nonprofit, he faced a different kind of pressure - leading an organization, carrying the weight of a mission, and pushing through exhaustion.
But this time, the gun wasn’t in someone else’s hands. It was the slow, creeping pressure of burnout, and it was just as dangerous.
In this episode, Bill shares how he went from being a leader on the brink to discovering the power of interruption.
He unpacks why so many pastors and ministry leaders are running on empty, why stepping away feels impossible, and how his sabbatical at a silent monastery changed everything.
Burnout isn’t a badge of honor - it’s a warning sign. If you feel the weight of ministry pressing down on you, this conversation is your lifeline.
Key Takeaways
Burnout doesn’t happen overnight. It’s a slow fade, and most leaders don’t see it coming until they’re in crisis.
Control is an illusion. Whether it’s holding onto leadership or refusing to step away, the tighter your grip, the heavier the burden.
Interruption is a choice - disruption is a consequence. If you don’t make space for rest, your body, mind, or ministry will force the issue.
A sabbatical isn’t selfish - it’s survival. Leaders who take time to step away don’t weaken their ministries - they strengthen them.
The church must do better. If you're a board member or elder, don’t wait for your pastor to break - give them space to breathe.
Chapter Markers
[00:10] - Welcome & Bill Simmons’ Story: From Missionary Kid to CEO
[03:14] - Held at Gunpoint - What a Child Soldier Taught Me About Control
[06:25] - The Burnout Epidemic: Why 8.5/10 Leaders Are Near Collapse
[09:55] - The Moment Everything Broke - And Why Bill Took a Sabbatical
[14:44] - Shabbat, Ceasing, & The Myth of Rest
[19:09] - The Power of Pause, Psalm, and Prayer
[24:59] - Leaders Don’t Have to Manufacture Spiritual Life - Just Make Space
[28:41] - Interruption vs. Disruption: What Happens When You Ignore the Signs
[32:11] - How to Sabbath Without Making It Just Another Task
[36:46] - The Way of Interruption - Bill’s Book & Why It Matters
Take the First Step Toward Rest
The weight of leadership isn’t yours to carry alone.
Read Bill Simmons’ book, The Way of Interruption, and learn how to embrace spiritual pause before burnout takes over. Order your copy now: Get the book here
Need help navigating a transition? Whether you're stepping away from ministry or trying to find a healthier rhythm, Pastoral Transitions can help. Visit pastoraltransitions.com to start the conversation.
42 min
March 11, 2025Can You Lead While Struggling? (featuring Matthew & Joanna Raabsmith)
Matthew had been hiding a secret for years. A secret that was growing, festering, and slowly creating a wedge in his marriage.
He was a pastor. A leader. A man who thought he had it under control - until he didn’t. Until Joanna asked him the one question he had spent years avoiding.
In that moment, everything unraveled. Their marriage. Their ministry. The future they had planned.
What do you do when the thing you're struggling with is the very thing you’re called to help others with? When the shame is suffocating, and the voices in your head tell you you're disqualified?
In this episode, Matthew and Joanna Raabsmith open up about betrayal, confession, and the long road to healing. They reveal how their journey nearly cost them everything - and how, through the wreckage, they found a new calling.
If you’re a pastor, a ministry leader, or just someone feeling like you've lost your way, this episode is for you.
Key Takeaways
Secrets don’t stay buried. What you hide will always rise to the surface - usually when you least expect it.
Your struggle doesn’t disqualify you. But ignoring it might.
Healing is possible - but only if you face the truth. Matthew’s addiction nearly destroyed his marriage, but confession opened the door to redemption.
Ministry should not cost you your soul. Leaders are burning out, hiding struggles, and suffering in silence. It’s time for a better way.
Chapter Markers
[00:10] - Introducing Matthew & Joanna Raabsmith
[01:15] - Falling in Love & Stepping into Ministry
[02:08] - The Secret That Changed Everything
[07:18] - The Moment of Truth: When Joanna Asked the Hard Question
[09:15] - Can You Still Be in Ministry After Failing?
[14:51] - Pastors in Crisis: Why Leaders Feel Stuck
[18:30] - The Weight of Hidden Struggles & The Road to Freedom
[21:27] - Creating a Culture Where Leaders Can Heal
[26:08] - What Churches Get Wrong About Redemption
[29:08] - Finding New Purpose After Ministry
Next Steps
If you or someone you know is struggling in ministry, you are not alone. There is a way forward. There is life after ministry.
Get resources and connect with Matthew & Joanna at https://raabsmithteam.com/free
Connect with us at https://pastoraltransitions.com/

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34 min

About Life After Ministry

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Many of us have experienced the sting of losing a job. But there’s something uniquely challenging about leaving a position in full-time vocational ministry.

Whether you’re stepping…