Life After Ministry

By Matt DavisBusiness Religion & Spirituality Christianity Non-Profit

Life After Ministry episodes

July 08, 2025Redeployed, Not Retired (featuring Jon Talbert)
What do you do when ministry success comes at the cost of your soul?
In this episode, we sit down with Jon Talbert - pastor, coach, and co-founder of Forte - to talk about the quiet unraveling that often happens behind the scenes in leadership.
Jon has led at the highest levels of church and nonprofit work, but somewhere along the way, he realized he was losing himself in the process. What followed wasn’t a dramatic exit - but a deliberate shift. A reckoning. A redefinition of calling.
If you’ve ever questioned your role, your rhythm, or even your relevance in ministry, this conversation will hit close to home.
Jon gets honest about burnout, identity, and why courage sometimes looks like letting go.
This isn’t just about recovering from ministry. It’s about discovering what’s next - with less fear and more freedom.
Key Takeaways
What most leaders miss about the difference between calling and identity
Why burnout isn’t always loud - and how to recognize it early
The real cost of avoiding your own growth
How to lead with clarity when the crowd is gone
What “editing your life” looks like in a post-ministry season
Chapter Markers
00:00 – Jon’s early ministry story
06:12 – From platform to pressure: the silent drift
14:45 – Burnout and the addiction to being needed
21:08 – Risk, honesty, and what it really means to lead well
29:17 – How Forte walks with leaders in transition
36:30 – Wrestling with faith after leaving ministry
41:40 – Final thoughts: courage over comfort

If you’re facing a leadership shift, you don’t have to do it alone. Start a conversation at ministrytransitions.com.
Follow Jon Talbert on LinkedIn
Learn more about his work at getforte.com
And explore their support for faith leaders at getforte.com/faith
52 min
March 18, 2025The Way of Interruption (featuring Bill Simmons)
Bill Simmons thought he was in control - until a child soldier in the Congo held him at gunpoint. In that moment, as the AK-47 clicked into place, Bill realized the terrifying truth: control was an illusion.
Years later, as the CEO of a global nonprofit, he faced a different kind of pressure - leading an organization, carrying the weight of a mission, and pushing through exhaustion.
But this time, the gun wasn’t in someone else’s hands. It was the slow, creeping pressure of burnout, and it was just as dangerous.
In this episode, Bill shares how he went from being a leader on the brink to discovering the power of interruption.
He unpacks why so many pastors and ministry leaders are running on empty, why stepping away feels impossible, and how his sabbatical at a silent monastery changed everything.
Burnout isn’t a badge of honor - it’s a warning sign. If you feel the weight of ministry pressing down on you, this conversation is your lifeline.
Key Takeaways
Burnout doesn’t happen overnight. It’s a slow fade, and most leaders don’t see it coming until they’re in crisis.
Control is an illusion. Whether it’s holding onto leadership or refusing to step away, the tighter your grip, the heavier the burden.
Interruption is a choice - disruption is a consequence. If you don’t make space for rest, your body, mind, or ministry will force the issue.
A sabbatical isn’t selfish - it’s survival. Leaders who take time to step away don’t weaken their ministries - they strengthen them.
The church must do better. If you're a board member or elder, don’t wait for your pastor to break - give them space to breathe.
Chapter Markers
[00:10] - Welcome & Bill Simmons’ Story: From Missionary Kid to CEO
[03:14] - Held at Gunpoint - What a Child Soldier Taught Me About Control
[06:25] - The Burnout Epidemic: Why 8.5/10 Leaders Are Near Collapse
[09:55] - The Moment Everything Broke - And Why Bill Took a Sabbatical
[14:44] - Shabbat, Ceasing, & The Myth of Rest
[19:09] - The Power of Pause, Psalm, and Prayer
[24:59] - Leaders Don’t Have to Manufacture Spiritual Life - Just Make Space
[28:41] - Interruption vs. Disruption: What Happens When You Ignore the Signs
[32:11] - How to Sabbath Without Making It Just Another Task
[36:46] - The Way of Interruption - Bill’s Book & Why It Matters
Take the First Step Toward Rest
The weight of leadership isn’t yours to carry alone.
Read Bill Simmons’ book, The Way of Interruption, and learn how to embrace spiritual pause before burnout takes over. Order your copy now: Get the book here
Need help navigating a transition? Whether you're stepping away from ministry or trying to find a healthier rhythm, Pastoral Transitions can help. Visit pastoraltransitions.com to start the conversation.
42 min
March 11, 2025Can You Lead While Struggling? (featuring Matthew & Joanna Raabsmith)
Matthew had been hiding a secret for years. A secret that was growing, festering, and slowly creating a wedge in his marriage.
He was a pastor. A leader. A man who thought he had it under control - until he didn’t. Until Joanna asked him the one question he had spent years avoiding.
In that moment, everything unraveled. Their marriage. Their ministry. The future they had planned.
What do you do when the thing you're struggling with is the very thing you’re called to help others with? When the shame is suffocating, and the voices in your head tell you you're disqualified?
In this episode, Matthew and Joanna Raabsmith open up about betrayal, confession, and the long road to healing. They reveal how their journey nearly cost them everything - and how, through the wreckage, they found a new calling.
If you’re a pastor, a ministry leader, or just someone feeling like you've lost your way, this episode is for you.
Key Takeaways
Secrets don’t stay buried. What you hide will always rise to the surface - usually when you least expect it.
Your struggle doesn’t disqualify you. But ignoring it might.
Healing is possible - but only if you face the truth. Matthew’s addiction nearly destroyed his marriage, but confession opened the door to redemption.
Ministry should not cost you your soul. Leaders are burning out, hiding struggles, and suffering in silence. It’s time for a better way.
Chapter Markers
[00:10] - Introducing Matthew & Joanna Raabsmith
[01:15] - Falling in Love & Stepping into Ministry
[02:08] - The Secret That Changed Everything
[07:18] - The Moment of Truth: When Joanna Asked the Hard Question
[09:15] - Can You Still Be in Ministry After Failing?
[14:51] - Pastors in Crisis: Why Leaders Feel Stuck
[18:30] - The Weight of Hidden Struggles & The Road to Freedom
[21:27] - Creating a Culture Where Leaders Can Heal
[26:08] - What Churches Get Wrong About Redemption
[29:08] - Finding New Purpose After Ministry
Next Steps
If you or someone you know is struggling in ministry, you are not alone. There is a way forward. There is life after ministry.
Get resources and connect with Matthew & Joanna at https://raabsmithteam.com/free
Connect with us at https://pastoraltransitions.com/

Share this episode. Someone needs to hear it.
34 min
February 18, 2025The Kingdom Principle of Transformational Suffering (featuring Bryan Elliott)
What do you do when life shatters around you?
When everything you built - your family, your future, your faith - feels like it’s slipping through your fingers?
Bryan Elliott knows suffering intimately.
A tragic accident left his brother in a vegetative state.
Addiction nearly destroyed his daughters.
A brutal murder stole one of them forever.
His businesses collapsed.
His marriages unraveled.
His world should have crushed him.
But it didn’t.
Instead, Bryan woke up the morning after his daughter's murder with something that made no sense: peace.
Not numbness.
Not denial.
Actual, undeniable peace.
And then, something even crazier - joy.
How?
This episode of Life After Ministry goes deep into the mystery of suffering, not as something to survive, but as something that transforms.
Bryan doesn’t just talk about enduring pain - he talks about what it means to co-suffer with Christ, to find God in the darkest pit, and to come out on the other side more alive than ever.
If you’ve ever walked through a season where God felt absent - where the wilderness stretched on too long and the heartbreak felt too heavy - this is the episode you need to hear.
Because maybe, just maybe, your suffering isn’t the end of the story. Maybe it’s the beginning of something bigger than you ever expected.
Key Takeaways
Why suffering is not just something to endure, but something God uses to transform us.
The kingdom principle of co-suffering with Christ and how it leads to co-glorification.
How to recognize God’s presence in the darkest seasons, even when He feels silent.
Why suffering is an accelerant in spiritual growth and how it prepares us for what’s next.
The role of grief, loss, and pain in shaping our faith and revealing God’s goodness.
How Bryan’s story of unimaginable suffering led to an unshakable trust in God’s sovereignty.
Chapter Markers
00:10 | Welcome & Bryan’s background
01:15 | A tragic accident that unraveled his family
07:31 | When life keeps taking - divorce, addiction, business collapse
16:23 | The moment Bryan’s daughter was murdered
17:06 | Waking up with peace - and why it didn’t make sense
20:54 | Why suffering is an accelerant, not an obstacle
26:22 | What we’re missing about suffering as believers
33:42 | Encouragement for those walking through suffering
40:51 | How to move forward and trust God in the process

If you’re walking through a season of suffering, you don’t have to navigate it alone.
We’re giving away 14 copies of Bryan’s book, As In Heaven, for free. Be one of the first 14 people to email [email protected], and we’ll send you a copy.
Want more resources on navigating life after ministry? Visit PastoralTransitions.com for guides, support, and practical help to walk through this season with clarity and hope.
To dive deeper into Bryan's ministry and find more resources on healing, restoration, and kingdom living, visit M46Ministries.com.
This is one of the most raw, gut-honest conversations we’ve ever had. Listen now, and let it reshape how you see suffering.
51 min
February 11, 2025 A New Conversation on Collective Church Trauma (featuring Kayleigh Clark)
Episode Summary
The church is supposed to be a place of healing. But what happens when it’s the source of the hurt?
Too often, we hear stories of toxic leadership, forced terminations, and broken congregations. And yet, no one wants to talk about it - not in the pulpit, not in the pews. The result? Wounds that never heal, pastors who burn out, and churches stuck in cycles of dysfunction.
In this episode, we sit down with Kayleigh Clark from Restor(y)to talk about church trauma, spiritual abuse, and the path toward real healing. This isn’t just theory - it’s real-life ministry, where pain meets restoration.
Key Takeaways
✅ Church trauma is real - and it doesn’t just affect congregants. Pastors are hurting, too.
✅ Healing must happen inside the church - we can’t keep looking for solutions outside the body of Christ.
✅ Difficult transitions leave lasting scars - but identifying past wounds is the first step to moving forward.
✅ God’s solution? Shepherds who care for the flock - not just institutions, but people who lead with compassion.
Chapter Markers
⏳ [00:00] – Why church trauma isn’t just an individual issue
⏳ [04:30] – The hidden cost of toxic congregations and forced terminations
⏳ [10:15] – Why “revitalization” often fails when trauma is ignored
⏳ [15:40] – What it means to be a trauma-informed pastor
⏳ [24:00] – How Restor(y) is helping churches rewrite their narratives
⏳ [30:10] – Practical steps toward healing, for both pastors and congregations
If church hurt has left you wounded, you’re not alone. Whether you’re a pastor in transition, a church leader navigating dysfunction, or a congregation longing for restoration, there is hope.
🔹 Learn more about Restor(y)’s work at restorycenter.com
🔹 If you need a safe space to talk, we’re here. Visit pastoraltransitions.com to start the conversation.
🔹 If you believe in this work, consider donating to help pastors in crisis find healing.
The church can be whole again. But it starts with facing the wounds. Let’s walk that road together.
41 min
February 04, 2025Coached Off Staff: Seeking Reconciliation After Transition (featuring Jonathan Carone)
Stepping out of ministry can feel like stepping into a free fall. For Jonathan Carone, leaving his church staff role wasn’t just a career transition—it was a journey of unraveling identity, reconciling relationships, and rediscovering purpose. In this episode of Life After Ministry, Jonathan shares his raw and honest story of being “coached off staff,” the lessons he learned in untangling his vocation from his identity, and how he found his way to thriving outside the walls of the church.
Jonathan’s story is one of heartbreak and healing, tension and transformation. Whether you’re wrestling with burnout, navigating a tough transition, or trying to figure out how to use your gifts in a new space, this episode is packed with wisdom and encouragement for the road ahead.
Key Takeaways:
The emotional toll of juggling multiple ministry roles and unmet expectations.
How reconciliation with former leaders brings closure and healing.
The difference between calling, identity, and vocation—and why it matters.
Practical advice for navigating transitions with honor, grace, and faith.
Chapter Markers:
0:00 – Introduction: Meeting Jonathan Carone and his ministry backstory.
5:20 – The toll of split roles: Balancing creative director, communications, and high school ministry.
12:45 – The moment of transition: What it means to be “coached off staff.”
20:10 – Reconciling relationships: Finding healing with former leaders.
28:30 – Identity vs. vocation: Lessons in rediscovering purpose after ministry.
35:50 – Thriving outside the church: Finding new ways to serve and make an impact.
42:15 – Final thoughts: Living boldly for the kingdom beyond vocational ministry.
Call to Action:
Transitioning out of ministry is hard, but there’s hope and purpose on the other side. Let’s embrace the truth that your calling is bigger than your vocation. For more stories, insights, and encouragement, subscribe to Life After Ministry wherever you listen to podcasts. Let’s navigate this journey together!
39 min
January 22, 2025Why Culture Matters (featuring Jenni Catron)
Episode Summary
What if the missing piece to a thriving ministry isn’t more strategy or programs but healthier culture? In this episode of Life After Ministry, we dive deep with Jenni Catron, a renowned culture coach, to uncover the secret sauce behind teams that thrive.
Together, we explore how great leaders don’t leave culture to chance - they build it with clarity and intention.
Jenni shares her personal journey from working in the record industry to executive church leadership and why culture became her passion. She opens up about her “aha moment” of realizing how deeply culture shapes our experiences and why neglecting it can derail even the best ministries.
Whether you’re a leader navigating toxic environments or simply trying to build a team that flourishes, this conversation delivers wisdom and practical tools to take your culture to the next level.
Key Takeaways
Great culture doesn’t happen by accident: It takes a clear vision and deliberate effort.
Why leaders often miss the mark: Without clarity, teams are left guessing - and disengaged.
Staff transitions matter more than you think: How we say goodbye impacts the whole team’s trust and morale.
Culture as stewardship: Healthy staff culture is the foundation for effective ministry.
Chapter Markers
0:00 - Welcome and intro to Jenni Catron
3:00 - Jenni’s journey: from music exec to church leader to culture coach
9:00 - What makes or breaks culture? Defining the “how” behind teamwork
18:00 - Conquering resistance: Leading through change with patience and clarity
30:00 - Staff transitions: The culture-shaping moments we often overlook
45:00 - Behind Jenni’s book Culture Matters and what’s next

Are you ready to build a culture that inspires your team and fuels your ministry? Don’t leave it to chance - start taking intentional steps today.
Join Jenni Catron and other incredible speakers at the free Culture Matters Summit. Register now at culturemattersummit.com. Explore Jenni’s new book, Culture Matters, and access tools to lead with clarity at get4sight.com/.
For more resources on making your staff transitions as graceful as your ministry, visit Pastoral Transitions. Let’s transform how we lead, together.
56 min
December 12, 2024Season 3 Finale: What We Have Learned About Transition (featuring Bill Tom & Noe Rivera)
Episode Summary:
In this special episode of the Life After Ministry Podcast, Matt Davis, Bill Tom, and Noe Rivera - the founders of Pastoral Transitions - take listeners behind the scenes of their work, sharing insights into the emotional and practical challenges pastors face during ministry transitions.
From navigating grief and burnout to finding new career paths and healing spiritually, this conversation sheds light on the complexities of pastoral life after ministry. They explore how churches can handle transitions with love, care, and intentionality, and they share hopeful stories of pastors finding new beginnings.
This episode isn’t just about transitions - it’s about reshaping the way we approach them in the church. Whether you’re a pastor in transition, a church leader, or someone supporting ministry workers, this discussion is packed with wisdom and practical takeaways.
Key Takeaways:
Pastors are often silent sufferers, facing immense personal and professional pressures with few healthy outlets.
The average pastoral tenure is only 3.6 years, making healthy transitions a critical need for churches.
Grieving and gaining are both essential parts of the transition process; pastors must address their emotional health to thrive in new roles.
Churches can strengthen their culture by handling goodbyes with grace and care, rather than division and pain.
Pastoral Transitions has cut the average transition time from 12-18 months to just 4-5 months by offering personalized support.
Mental health awareness is growing in the church, but there’s still work to be done to normalize counseling for ministry leaders.
Chapter Markers:
0:00 – Introduction: The purpose of Pastoral Transitions and 2024 reflections.
1:30 – Bill’s journey: How his heart has grown for pastors in transition.
2:35 – The ripple effects of pastoral challenges on families and ministries.
3:27 – Coaching pastors to rediscover God’s voice amid transition.
4:48 – Career concerns: Helping pastors identify transferable skills.
7:28 – Reducing transition time: From 12 months to under 5 months.
10:05 – The grieving and gaining process in pastoral transitions.
15:51 – The cultural impact of poorly handled transitions.
18:52 – Redefining work as ministry: Marketplace ministry opportunities.
23:31 – Growing impact: Changing how the church thinks about transitions.
31:18 – Building a healthy culture of succession in churches.
32:43 – A message of hope: God’s provision and healing during difficult times.
36:54 – How to support pastors in transition: Practical steps for churches and individuals.
Transitions are never easy, but they can be done with love, grace, and intentionality. Join the mission to help pastors and their families heal and find hope. Share this episode with your church leaders or friends in ministry, and consider supporting a pastor in transition by donating at pastoraltransitions.com/donate. Together, we can transform how the church handles change and bring restoration to the body of Christ.
41 min
November 22, 2024New Soil, New Roots - Part Two (featuring Brian Fisher)
Why is it that modern churches seem so successful in introducing people to Jesus but struggle to lead them into a life of true transformation?
Brian Fisher doesn’t hold back as he has done a deep dive on how there is something missing in the church experience: a failure to address the deeper stages of discipleship.
Drawing from his own journey through loss, reflection, and rebuilding, Brian shares his vision for a radically different approach: smaller, intimate communities focused on spiritual formation instead of surface-level engagement.
In this episode, Brian and Matt discuss how “the wall” in the discipleship journey forces us to confront our brokenness and deepen our relationship with Christ.
And Brian introduces the Soil & Roots concept of “Greenhouses,” spaces designed to cultivate deep spiritual growth, and how they differ from traditional small groups.
For anyone longing to go beyond the basics of faith, this episode is a must-listen.
Key Points
The Wall and Wilderness: Moving through disorientation is painful, but it’s necessary for deeper growth in Christ.
Reimagining Discipleship: The first three stages of faith - knowing, learning, and serving - are just the beginning. True transformation happens in stages four, five, and six.
The Greenhouse Model: Unlike most small groups, greenhouses foster safety, intimacy, and authentic wrestling with God’s truths.
The Church’s Blind Spot: Modern church structures often focus on attracting crowds but neglect the messy, time-consuming work of deep spiritual formation.
Hope After Ministry: Brian’s story shows there is life and ministry after vocational leadership - if we’re willing to redefine success on God’s terms.
Pull Quotes
"Churches are great at making converts but struggle to make disciples who think, act, and love like Jesus."
"True spiritual formation happens in the wilderness, not in the crowd."
"The church should grow smaller, not bigger, if we want to see real transformation."
"The wall isn’t a punishment - it’s an invitation into God’s deeper love."
Chapter Markers
0:00 – 2:02: The Church’s Failure in Stages Four, Five, and Six of Discipleship
2:03 – 5:35: What Is a Greenhouse? Introducing the Model for Deep Spiritual Growth
5:36 – 8:29: Why Most Small Groups Aren’t Enough for Real Formation
8:30 – 10:49: The Power Struggles in Church Institutions and Why They Resist Change
10:50 – 13:37: Wrestling with Faith: The Importance of Vulnerability in Community
13:38 – 15:46: Gratitude for the Wilderness: Finding Joy in Suffering
15:47 – 19:52: Dredging the Depths: Removing Debris to Create New Life
19:53 – 22:38: Becoming Deeper People: Awake to God, Others, Ourselves, and Creation
22:39 – 24:54: Inviting People Into the Deep End of Discipleship
24:55 – 26:54: Connecting with Soil and Roots
Want to Go Deeper?
Brian’s insights challenge us to rethink what it means to truly follow Jesus. Whether you’re longing for deeper community, wrestling with your faith, or navigating a wilderness season, this episode provides hope and practical guidance.
Website: SoilandRoots.org
Podcast: Soil and Roots (Available on all platforms)
Substack: Search Soil and Roots for in-depth articles on discipleship
This is part two of Brian’s story. Together with part one, it paints a compelling vision for what the church could become if we embraced the call to deeper discipleship.
29 min
November 19, 2024New Soil, New Roots - Part One (featuring Brian Fisher)
What Happens When Ministry Ends?
What do you do when the life you built for the kingdom - your identity, your mission, your livelihood - gets ripped away without explanation?
For Brian Fisher, founder of a thriving pro-life nonprofit that saved over 18,000 lives, the answer wasn’t immediate. In 2020, he and his wife were forced out of the ministry they built. Their possessions came home in cardboard boxes, and their community turned silent.
In this raw and honest episode, Brian reflects on the crushing loneliness and profound disorientation that followed. But this isn’t just his story- it’s the story of countless ministry leaders who face the same unspoken challenges.
Together, we explore what happens on “Day One” after hitting rock bottom and begin to uncover the tools for navigating the inward journey, the wall, and the deep transformation that only comes through suffering.
Key Points
From Success to Loss: Brian recounts building a nonprofit that combined technology and Christ-centered care to save lives, only to lose everything suddenly in 2020.
The Loneliness of Ministry Transition: When a leader is removed, awkward silences and a lack of support can amplify the grief, leaving them isolated.
Facing Day Zero: After a ministry ends, many leaders feel lost and abandoned, wondering, “What now?”
Understanding The Wall: The wall - a stage of profound disorientation - is where God invites us to sit in the pain and uncover deep truths about ourselves and Him.
The Need for Witness: In seasons of suffering, what we often need most isn’t advice or solutions but someone to simply sit with us in the mess.
Pull Quotes
"The hardest part wasn’t being fired. It was the deafening silence of people who used to stand with us."
"The wall isn’t just a season - it’s an invitation to let God redefine what ‘good’ looks like."
"We need people who will sit with us, not try to fix us, when life falls apart."
"The church must get better at stages four, five, and six of discipleship - where transformation really happens."
Chapter Markers
0:00 – 3:09: Introduction: Meeting Brian Fisher
3:10 – 6:20: The Rise of a Pro-Life Nonprofit
6:21 – 9:08: The Loss: Forced Out Without Explanation
9:09 – 11:36: Navigating Day Zero: Loneliness and Isolation
11:37 – 15:12: The Journey Inward: Facing The Wall
15:13 – 17:12: The Role of Witness: How Others Can Help
17:13 – 21:27: Wrestling with God: Letting Go of Success
21:28 – 25:15: The Wall as a Gift: Redefining God’s Goodness
Want to Go Deeper?
Brian Fisher’s story offers a blueprint for those navigating seasons of loss and disorientation. Learn more about how to embrace the inward journey and build communities for true spiritual growth.
Website: SoilandRoots.org
Podcast: Soil and Roots (Available on all platforms)
Substack: Search Soil and Roots for thought-provoking articles
This is part one of Brian’s conversation. Don’t miss the next episode, where we dive deeper into his work with Soil and Roots and how he’s helping others grow spiritually after ministry transitions.
28 min

About Life After Ministry

From the publisher's feed

Many of us have experienced the sting of losing a job. But there’s something uniquely challenging about leaving a position in full-time vocational ministry.

Whether you’re stepping…