Light After Trauma

Dr. Katherine joins Alyssa to discuss her journey of immigrating to the United States. They explore the implicit and explicit messages Dr. Katherine received as a child about having to be worthy of staying in this country. Dr. Katherine also opens up about the long-lasting effects that her experience with immigration had on her wellbeing.

For more information on how you can work with Dr. Katherine, please visit her website at www.drkatherinephd.com

 

Check out the Light After Trauma website for transcripts, other episodes, Alyssa's guest appearances, and more at: www.lightaftertrauma.com

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Transcript:

Alyssa Scolari [00:23]:

Hi, everybody. Hope you all are doing well. Welcome to another episode of the Light After Trauma podcast. I'm your host, Alyssa Scolari. Today we are going to be talking about a whole host of different things with my multi-passionate friend, as she likes to call herself, which I think is very fitting. This is Dr. Katherine Perez-Rivera. Dr. Katherine is a multi-passionate licensed psychologist in the State of New Jersey, and a Mind-Body Nutrition Coach. She's the founder of the South Jersey Center for Psychological Services.

Dr. Katherine works with children, teens, and adults. She provides individual therapy, couples therapy, marriage counseling, and family therapy. She also conducts comprehensive psychological and parenting capacity evaluations. As part of Dr. Katherine's PhD in Clinical Psychology program at the University of Alabama, she was formally trained in providing all of her services in English, as well as her native language, Spanish. There is so much more to this wonderful woman that we are going to get into. So hello, Katherine, how are you?

Katherine Perez Rivera [01:38]:

Hello, Alyssa. I'm doing wonderful. It's just so nice to be here with you. I haven't known you for that long, several months, but our relationship just seems to be so organic.

Alyssa Scolari [01:49]:

Yes.

Katherine Perez Rivera [01:50]:

It's been wonderful getting to know you.

Alyssa Scolari [01:52]:

Yep. That's the exact word that I would use for it. Katherine and I met ... Well, you had reached out to me, right? You had sent me an email.

Katherine Perez Rivera [02:00]:

Yes. Yes. Yes I did. Because of Noelle. Your beautiful Noelle.

Alyssa Scolari [02:06]:

Aw. My beautiful Noelle. We were just saying right before we started recording, I may be firing her from the role as therapy dog. As many of you know, who are a part of the Facebook group, and who see some of the things that I post on social media, I have three dogs. I have another Australian Shepherd who's a year younger than Noelle. His name is Bentley. And while he was the worst-behaved puppy I've ever met in my life, he is becoming the sweetest dog. I took him to work with me last week. I think it was last week. And when I came home, he was so well behaved. He was so attentive to everyone's needs. And when I came home, I told Noelle she might be fired. So we were just talking about that before we started recording. But yeah, so you reached out to me to ask me about how I got Noelle certified.

Katherine Perez Rivera [03:09]:

Yes, exactly. Exactly. Because I was in the process of adopting a dog from a shelter, and I always wanted to do something as incorporating a dog in my office. When I saw you, I was like, "Wait, this is someone who's local. And let me reach out to her and see how she went about the process." And I'm fortunate to have now adopted a Husky mix. We don't know her other part, but she's definitely more Husky than anything else, and she currently started her classes,with the ultimate goal of making her a therapy dog. We'll see if she makes it. If not, I'll just have to hire Noelle.

Alyssa Scolari [03:50]:

Noelle might be up for grabs. Your dog is so sweet. Oh, she's so beautiful.

Katherine Perez Rivera [04:01]:

Very gentle. Very, very empathetic. I love her.

Alyssa Scolari [04:05]:

Yeah, I think she'll be a great therapy dog. But tell me a little bit more about what it is you do, because you are, I mean, truly the epitome of the phrase multi-passionate. So where are you in your life right now? What are all the projects that you're in? Give me the details.

Katherine Perez Rivera [04:29]:

I think that's a perfect question, "Where are you in your life right now?" Because what I do really depends on the season of my life, and it's never something that I plan out. Somehow I'm led to work with certain populations, have different contracts in my office at different times in my life. It's just always interesting how I don't seek them out. It just lands on me.

Right now my main focus is working with families who are involved with DCP&P, the Department of Children and Families. Primarily parents whose children have been taken away because of suspected or because of founded neglect, emotional abuse, physical abuse, and/or sexual abuse. There's usually a lot of substance abuse involved, a lot of complex trauma that the clients come with. My primary position with the State of New Jersey with this particular department, is to provide parental capacity valuations to determine if this particular parent is ready for either reunification, or what services do they need, or sometimes the children have not been removed, but there's supervision in place, and whether the supervision should be lifted or not. That's part of what I do.

The other part is I provide therapy to the clients that come through the state, through this particular department. I do have also some clients that I just see through my private practice. Then the other exciting portion, this is really exciting, is I do crisis management. It's very last minute. Sometimes I'll be in my PJ's, and I'll get that phone call saying, "How fast can you get to a particular company to provide support, specifically crisis management support for the employees that we have?" And it's oftentimes because of some tragic incident, such as a suicide, a homicide, sometimes it's a murder/suicide, and at times it's a car accident. I have been very busy during the pandemic, whereas I've been called out to several companies to support the employees, the essential workers who were working many, many, many hours, and to just be able to support them. So it's fascinating, because I don't just do the traditional psychotherapy. I do the forensic evaluations, and then I also do the crisis management work.

Alyssa Scolari [06:56]:

I think one of the things that I admire about you the most is that, and when I talked to Katherine, I think I've probably asked her 75 times at this point, "How do you do what you do?" Which is the crisis management. Going out on the crisis calls. I used to have to do that through my... Basically all the jobs that I've had, prior to launching into full-time private practice through my job with the police department, through when I worked at the Center for Family Services, when I worked in the city of Camden, all of my positions required you to be on-call in a crisis. So you have to be at-the-ready to put your therapist hat on at any time, even though you're not really providing long-term therapy. You still have to be in that mode. Why do you think that you're so drawn to that?

Katherine Perez Rivera [08:02]:

That's a great question. I always wanted to pursue a career with an agency such as the FBI. Something in which I was solving problems, I was doing detective type of work, and I wasn't able to pursue that because I was, as I've shared with you before, at some point, undocumented in this country. And so of course that barred me from any government position, even though it doesn't barr me from having contracts with the government. There's an element about not knowing what I'm walking into, and yet being extremely confident that the skillset that I have will absolutely meet the needs of the clients.

I walked with this confidence because I have had so much experience in psychology that I got this, and it's not always the case. There are times when I'm stumped. There are times when I'm not sure what to say. But I just feel that going into something, and not knowing what I'm walking into, it's just really exciting. It shakes things up. It goes back to just testing myself like, "Well, this is another test. How good am I going to be?"

And I also remember that I am not there to fix. I am only there to contain the fire. That's the way I think about it. I'm just there to contain the crisis. And I don't hold responsibility for the people I work with. I really believe that people ... I try and put people in an empowered position. And so I don't hold the responsibility that when I walk into a company, that I have to know all the answers, and that I have to make sure that everything is fine before I leave. And so that's also very helpful. I don't have very high expectations for myself, even though I do walk in knowing that I have a very good skillset to apply to a company that I walk into.

Alyssa Scolari [09:54]:

Right. That makes a lot of sense. You thrive in chaos, it sounds like. Right? That's your sweet spot. Do you get an adrenaline rush from it?

Katherine Perez Rivera [10:10]:

I do, Alyssa, I do. In fact, there was a time when I was teaching quite a number of indoor cycling classes,and also running my private practice, and also doing crisis management. And so I remember a few times I was getting off the bike just saying goodbye to the riders, and I would get that phone call and say, "How soon can you be there? There's there's been a homicide." And I always had a change of clothes in my car, my earrings, my accessories, my shoes, and I'd be running out to the car, and I'd be grabbing and I'd see as soon as possible how soon can I shower, rinse off, how soon can I get dressed, how soon can you get in the car? There's just something fascinating, just experience of this hero life, even though I don't see myself as a hero in a way.

I just felt like I'm being called to do the best. So technically being called, but I'm also being called to serve in this way, very differently than I had been. I've been doing this for about three years, the crisis management component in my practice. And I just feel like I should have been doing this for a lot longer, like why didn't I start this until three years ago? So it is something about that. It is very chaotic when I get that phone call, and I always have to be ready, and I am ready. It just really feeds into my self-esteem, it just really feeds into the fact that I'm pretty seasoned in the field. I'm pretty seasoned, and the way that I do things is very organized. And yet when I'm being called to do this, it tests me. Can you really pull it together?

You know, another thing too is that it's time limited. When I'm out in the sites, I know that it's time limited, and there's something also very refreshing about that. I love psychotherapy. I love long-term psychotherapy. And yet, this is the other side of the coin. Maybe I'm at a company for four hours, maybe two, maybe eight hours. And that's it. Now during the pandemic, I was stationed at one company for five weeks, and another company for 10 weeks. And that was seven days a week for five weeks, seven days a week for 10 weeks. And that was extremely unusual. But usually it's a very time limited experience that I have, and people go so deep in such a short amount of time. They talk about things that I just would have never expected them to talk about. Some people would reveal very traumatic childhood traumatic experiences and relationships that we've had in the past or are currently in. And they know that they're never going to see me again.

Alyssa Scolari [12:40]:

Yeah. It's so interesting that you say that, because I remember, and I think that, I think that that's more about who you are as a person, and speaks to the level of safety that you can provide people right off the bat, the level of emotional safety. I noticed that that was happening to me as well when I would go out on crisis calls, and that doesn't happen to everybody. After talking with my colleagues, not everybody pours their whole heart and soul out to you, knowing that they're never going to see you again. And I had found that that was happening to me often. Anytime I would go out on a crisis call, I would find myself listening to somebody's whole life story, and every trauma that they've ever endured, which is wonderful that they felt a sense of safety to be able to share that with me.

But at the same time, it didn't work for me personally, because I wasn't able to leave it at the door, so to speak. I would bring that home and go, "Okay, I'm never going to see that person again. And I was the container for three decades worth of trauma. And I don't know what to do with that. So it's, I think, really reflective on who you are as a human being, that people feel safe enough to be able to unravel in front of you.

Katherine Perez Rivera [14:12]:

Thank you for sharing that. And yeah, I could see that discomfort in terms of leaving, and now it's like, "What happens next? What do I do with this?" And I know that because I'm going out with presenting Employee Assistance Programs, there's always employee assistance counselors that are the next step. And so I contain the fire as I call it, but then I hand it off, make sure that the client knows how to access the resources through the Employee Assistance Program.

And again, because I believe in the power of choice, I really try and put someone in an empowered position. That is your choice on how you decide to process this further. But then I walk away just with this knowing that they will make the right choice for themselves at this point in time. And whether that is accessing the services, the additional counseling sessions that are offered to them through the Employee Assistance Program or not, it is what they're ready for. They get to decide that. I don't get to decide that for them. And I feel really complete when I leave, knowing that I get to-

Alyssa Scolari [15:16]:

You get to pass the torch, so to speak.

Katherine Perez Rivera [15:19]:

Yes. Yes.

Alyssa Scolari [15:19]:

And have them set up for help, and whatever it is that they may need, should they choose that.

Katherine Perez Rivera [15:25]:

Yes. And so that's the way that I pretty much brainwashed myself into thinking they're good to go right now. I've done my end, and they know the next step to take. And it's their choice whether they take it or not. And if I didn't have that trusting in human nature, and the human choice, and the human condition, I think I'd be a mess.

Alyssa Scolari [15:47]:

Yeah.

Katherine Perez Rivera [15:48]:

I'd be like, "Oh my God. Oh my God. This is something that I have to... I have to meet up with them again. I have to get their phone number, call them, make sure they're okay." But it took a lot of years for me to get to that point. When you're first starting out in psychology and counseling, I think most of us do feel a sense of responsibility for our client's success or failures.

Alyssa Scolari [16:08]:

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And I want to go back to when you said a little while ago, that you weren't able to pursue the career path that you wanted because you are undocumented. What was that like? I know we've talked a little bit, not recording, about what your early childhood days were like, but part of me wonders if, because it must have been chaotic for you. And there's a big part of me that wonders if that chaos that you experienced in your childhood is part of the reason why you thrive in the chaos now. Does that make sense?

Katherine Perez Rivera [16:57]:

It does make sense. You know, and there's this pull that I have towards being extremely organized and detail-oriented. I wouldn't call it perfectionistic, but it has a tendency to veer that way towards perfectionism. And then there's this other comfort that I have with chaos. And I do think that it definitely stems, and I think that's very observant of you, Alyssa. I do think it stems with the fact that I was undocumented. I actually came to this country when I was eight years old from Venezuela. And I came with a Visa through my father, who was a business owner. He would import-export goods from the United States down to Venezuela and back. And we decided to just hang out for a little while so the girls, me and my sister, could learn English. And it took a little longer than the six months he expected. It took two years.

And by then, we wanted to stay. But by then, our Visa was expiring, and things were really becoming politically unstable in our country. And so he made the brave and questionable decision to keep us here. But it was extremely rough, because there was a lot of food insecurity, there was a lot of insecurity regarding whether we were going to be deported or not. And certainly by the time that I learned all of this, it made sense of why there was so much chaos in my household, so much ineffective communication, so much, "You have to eat everything that you possibly can right now, because you don't know if you're going to have food the next day." And it was also time for me to apply to colleges, not knowing that I really couldn't apply.

So it all worked out, obviously I did all my studying here in this country. It all worked out. I'm a citizen now, but there was just an element of having to always keep it together. I do remember an attorney saying to me and this, this haunts me, but at the same time it's been, what's propelled me. This attorney said to me, "You need to prove your self worthy to this country, in order to be able to stay in this country." And I wonder if I wouldn't tell-

Alyssa Scolari [18:59]:

That's a loaded statement.

Katherine Perez Rivera [19:01]:

Right. Right. I mean, would I have pursued a doctorate? Would I have gone this far in education? If I hadn't been told that? I don't know. I just know that being told, "You need to prove yourself worthy to this country so that you can stay in this country" is pretty significant for a 15 year old. And so-

Alyssa Scolari [19:22]:

You were 15 you heard that?

Katherine Perez Rivera [19:23]:

Yes, I was 15 years old when I heard that. Yes. And so I was like, "Okay, no problem. Everything's chaotic, but I'll pull it together." And so that was, in my world, it was traumatic. I wasn't able to make it traumatic at the time. I just couldn't afford to feel the trauma. Because it would have just, I think overwhelmed me.

And it's just, as I got older, that I began to experience the impact that those words had, the way that I work, the way that I just, I go all out. I go above and beyond, and in things that are sometimes trivial and not important, things that are just not important, but I go above and beyond. And I've really had to work to just kind of balance things out, and not do it all, and not do it all at once, because time's not really running out, even though physiologically, the trauma has wired me to really think that time's always running out.

So it goes back to, yes, it was very chaotic. And yes, that is probably why when I go into an unknown, I'm okay with it, because I know there will be an end, as opposed to, I know there will be a time when I'm scheduled to leave. And I know there's support that I can leave the client with as opposed to you when I was a child, I didn't have that support. And there was no end in sight.

Alyssa Scolari [20:41]:

Yeah. That makes it so much sense to me now, why you are on the career path that you are on, because you have the best of both worlds. But it's almost like you're able to replay out your childhood in what you do now with crisis management, because you know that there is going to be an end to it. And you know that they are going to have support, and you're able to offer them the solution that you ultimately didn't know you were going to have as a child. Right? I hear this sense of like, "Well, I didn't know when my time was going to be up."

Katherine Perez Rivera [21:22]:

Yeah. Yeah. I remember when I would hear a helicopter, I would think, "Oh my God, they're looking for me." I would envision like, "Okay, what would I take if I hear that knock on the door? What would I take with me?" So, yeah, it was definitely very vivid. I recall just feeling just so ungrounded. And so that's why in my practice, that's what I really try and get people to focus, not on what they cannot control, because that just makes her crazy, right? I try and make people think about what they can control, and to try and just really give themselves permission to be uncomfortable with those things that they cannot control. To know that it's going to be okay, as long as you do keep focusing on the things that you can control, and you process the feelings that you have for the things that you cannot control. So I really try and get people to feel grounded by just that little tiny thing they can control. That's just so essential to my work. Because I felt so out of control.

Alyssa Scolari [22:26]:

That's so important. Right. And it's what you needed. Even in the basic sense. You didn't even know if your needs were going to be met, in terms of like, "Well, we don't know if you're going to be able to eat tomorrow, so eat everything that you can today." Which is really setting you up for eating disorder behaviors, which I'm guessing, and you can speak further on this as part of the reason why you are a Mind-Body Nutrition Coach as well.

Katherine Perez Rivera [22:59]:

One of the interesting things about Mind-Body Nutrition Coaching is that, and we all have, most of us have the knowledge, and we all have access to the knowledge on how to lead a healthy lifestyle. And I just find it fascinating how, including myself, that there were many years in which, of course I had the knowledge, but I would not apply the knowledge. And on how to eat healthy and how to be healthy, how to live healthy.

And that's why I was drawn to that particular coaching program through the Institute of the Psychology of Eating. Because if I myself had the knowledge, and I had a doctorate, and I was still not eating healthy, then there was something more. It was something way more. And I was really able to understand that that food insecurity I had as a child growing up, made its way into adulthood. And made for some disorder in me, for some times, just this consumption of food that just, this binge-eating, I just couldn't stop.

It was like, "Oh my God, this food tastes so good." And it wasn't, I don't think just about the comfort that comes with food. It was about the fact that, "Will I have any food tomorrow?" was playing out in the background. It was playing out on my father's messages that, "You must eat everything that's available to you right now, because we do not know if you will have food tomorrow." And so there have been patterns. There have been times in my life when I have engaged in binge eating. And fortunately that's not longer. I am so in touch with what I've put in my body, and the reasons why I've put it in my body at this time, that I'm in that phase anymore. But I have had those phases before, and I didn't understand them until I became a Mind-Body Nutrition Coach.

Alyssa Scolari [24:47]:

Wow. Wow. I am just so impressed and in awe of the work that you do, and how you have taken, right? This is what this podcast is all about, is spreading this awareness to people that regardless of what you've been through, it's not a death sentence, so to speak. You have the opportunity to take all of the horrible things that you have been through, and make the world a better place as a result of them. And you embody that. And I knew that from the moment that I met you. So I am very honored that you are able to come on here, and share your light to all of the listeners out there, because your story is one that needs to be told.

I would hazard a guess here and say that you are so not alone when it comes to the connection between being undocumented in the United States, and eating disordered behaviors, because I'm sure it's always that thought of, "Well, when is my time up?" And it's so very, very sad. But the fact that you're able to reflect on it, and then help others to be more present-focused, and live in the moment on, "Okay, well, what can I control? What can I control right now?" It's amazing. It's amazing.

Katherine Perez Rivera [26:24]:

Thank you. You know, I've been able to, but that the fact that yes, I did want to pursue a career with the FBI, I wanted to do certain things that I was unable to do because of my status, my legal status. And yet I have found that now I do forensic work, that I do interface with the court system. I interface with judges, I interface with attorneys. And so that's what I really find interesting, that even though I wasn't able to do it the traditional way, I'm still somehow involved in that-

Alyssa Scolari [26:59]:

You found your way.

Katherine Perez Rivera [27:00]:

Yeah. In that kind of legality, that legal world. And yet I'm protected, because that's not all I do. It's not all 100% that I do this forensic work either. So that's where just being able to just have that experience of being multi-passionate. I'm drawn to different things. And not to mention that I'm talented in those different areas is really helpful. So I get to play around. I get to use some of my creativity as well.

With the mind-body nutrition coaching, it is something that I started again about three years ago, and I find that the philosophy behind it is still pretty new. It's something that doesn't resonate with a lot of people. A lot of phone calls I will get is, "I want to lose this amount of weight. And I want to get on a meal plan." And that's not what mind-body nutrition coaching is. It's about-

Alyssa Scolari [27:49]:

No way Jose.

Katherine Perez Rivera [27:50]:

Right. It's about unearthing your wounds, and also unearthing your potential, by having a different relationship with your body. Some of the exercises are things such as writing a letter to your body, praising it, apologizing to it, and having your body write a letter back. Things that people that are seeking a meal plan, that are wanting to count calories, macros, that's not what they're going to get with mind-body nutrition coaching. So I find that it is something that is not... It doesn't resonate with a lot of people just yet, but I do think that it is our future.

I do think that we're going to find that many of us will do the calorie counting, the restriction, the this, the that, and guess what, we're still not getting to where we want to get. We don't look the way we want to look. And mind-body nutrition coaching really gets you out of that.

Alyssa Scolari [27:50]:

Absolutely.

Katherine Perez Rivera [28:35]:

So when everyone's knocking on everyone's door, not proposing a meal plan so we can track calories, because they really want to slow down. They want to look into vitamin L, love, vitamin R, rest, they want to look into all of these other vitamins that are beyond the vitamins that you can buy at a pharmacy. To see how this resonates can really impact the way that you feel about yourself and bring food into the picture.

Alyssa Scolari [29:01]:

Yes, I love it. That is the future, right? It might not be right now, but that is the future of our world, which is pushing things like South Beach Diet and Weight Watchers right out the door, because you can count until you're blue in the face, and it's not going to work. Sorry to disappoint those of you out there who don't know this, but diets do not work, nor have they ever worked. And people are now going to be knocking on doors. And instead of saying, "Help me to lose this weight." They're going to say, "Help me to figure out how I can intuitively eat, because there's so much noise going on in my head with diet, culture, and trauma, and this and that, that says, "I need to look a certain way." But we need to learn how to be at peace with ourselves.

Katherine Perez Rivera [30:00]:

And that's why only 5% of people will reach their goals. And it's typically short-term, in terms of the dieting. And so that's very sad to hear that, because a lot of times diets are just masking our traumas, or they're masking challenges, or masking deficiencies that we just haven't really addressed.

Alyssa Scolari [30:18]:

Absolutely. My chronic dieting was the way that I could avoid having to remember my abuse. So if I just focused on trying to control that number on the scale, or trying to count the points in Weight Watchers, I mean, I could have been the poster child for Weight Watchers. And it all served a purpose, which was to mask the abuse that I had endured. And I believe that to be true for so many people who engage in that chronic dieting behavior. So, and not necessarily that it's abuse, but it's usually masking trauma of some sort. Chronic dieting serves a purpose, and the purpose really is never simply to lose weight.

Katherine Perez Rivera [31:12]:

Yeah. Yeah. And you know, what I say about working with people, and one of my primary goals is just to get them to focus on what they can control, it's always things, for instance, like a conversation, like what can you control about not knowing what this person is thinking? Okay, well, you can ask them. It's never about numbers. It's never about this rigidity. It's typically very interpersonal. And when I work with people in the mind-body nutrition coaching area, and I try to get them to focus on what they control, it's never about the number on the scale. And I do find that most people are so focused. People sometimes will weigh themselves several times a day.

Alyssa Scolari [31:51]:

Oh, yeah. I did that. If I didn't like the number, I would step back off, step back on, if I still didn't like the number, I'd be like, "All right, well, what if I take my hair tie out? Maybe my hair tie is adding that extra ounce."

Katherine Perez Rivera [32:08]:

Yeah. I was there a few times, too. I was obviously there a few times. It's like, "Oh, let me take my glasses off."

Alyssa Scolari [32:08]:

I did that too. Oh, man.

Katherine Perez Rivera [32:20]:

Now I have contacts, so, yeah. And I remember that with the Institute for the Psychology of Eating, where I did my study for the mind-body nutrition coaching, that they have you go on a two month, no diet, diet. So for two months, you're to just eat anything want, and you're also supposed to smash your scale. You take a hammer and you smash your scale. That's part of it.

Alyssa Scolari [32:47]:

I love it.

Katherine Perez Rivera [32:47]:

Because it's about really reconnecting to you, to your body, as opposed to to these external triggers for many.

Alyssa Scolari [32:56]:

Yep. I couldn't agree with you more. Smash that scale, everybody. If you're not there yet, it's okay. I get it. But one day you'll be there, and you'll hopefully smash that scale. So, well, I just want to thank you for coming on the show today. You truly are, I know I've said this before, but you truly are the embodiment of a multi-passionate woman who has... You've taken everything that you've been through, and you've used it to thrive in this world. So it is a joy for the world to get to hear your story. And I am so grateful to have met you.

Katherine Perez Rivera [33:37]:

Yeah. Same here. And you know, I've told you that several times, that it's just, it's incredible. You know, we didn't know each other at the beginning of the year. And I feel like I've known you for years.

Alyssa Scolari [33:49]:

Yep. We're we're soulmates. We're soulmates, in the purest sense of the word. So-

Katherine Perez Rivera [33:58]:

Absolutely. And Alyssa, it's just that you are so transparent. That is amazing. Your transparency. You make yourself vulnerable, and that's just very, you're just so real. You're so authentic. You draw people in because of your authenticity. And you're helping people with things like, for instance, this podcast. You're really trying, you're doing this for others, and it's just so touching that you... And it's a lot of work to do what you're doing, and you're doing it because you want to inspire people. And to knowing that trauma is something that you'll carry with you, and you can fly from it, and can turn it into something more.

Alyssa Scolari [34:38]:

Yeah. It doesn't have to be a death sentence. And I knew after sitting in my office and listening to my patients, that it wasn't going to be enough for me to just be in private practice. I need to reach as many people as I can, because if almost every person that I'm seeing in my practice feels hopeless and a sense of despair because of what they've been through, then imagine how many other people are out there that feel this sense of hopelessness and despair. And I know, because I felt it. I've been there. And yeah, I appreciate you saying that, because that's my goal, is to be as raw and as vulnerable as possible, so that people know that like, "Yes, this process is ugly. The healing is ugly, but the beauty that comes from it is far beyond what anybody could ever imagine.

Katherine Perez Rivera [35:41]:

Yeah. So thank you to you, for doing what you do, Alyssa.

Alyssa Scolari [35:45]:

Thank you. And if people want to learn more about you, or if they want to seek you out for mind-body nutrition coaching, where could they find you at?

Katherine Perez Rivera [35:56]:

So my website is www.dr.katherine. So that's D-R-K-A-T-H-E-R-I-N-E-P-H-D.com. So sr.katherinephd.com, and I am based out of Pitman, New Jersey, but I also provide, as many of us do nowadays, tele-health services.

Alyssa Scolari [36:19]:

Perfect. And I will link that. I will link her website in the show notes, and in the newsletter, and Facebook page for you all, so you have access to learn more about her, if you are interested. Thank you very much.

Katherine Perez Rivera [36:34]:

Thank you, Alyssa. You take care.

Alyssa Scolari [36:36]:

You too. I hope you enjoyed today's episode. For more information on today's discussion, and to sign up for the Light After Trauma newsletter, head over to my website @alyssascolari.com. Also be sure to check out my Instagram for additional tips and resources, at Alyssa_Scolari_LPC. Thanks again for listening, and take good care.

In honor of World Mental Health Day, Alyssa discusses the concept of self care. In a society where self care is glamorized, Alyssa provides insight on the different between self-care versus numbing out and how taking care of yourself doesn't always mean breaking the bank! 

 

Check out the Light After Trauma website for transcripts, other episodes, Alyssa's guest appearances, and more at: www.lightaftertrauma.com

Want to get more great content and interact with the show? Check us out on Instagram: @lightaftertrauma

We need your help! We want to continue to make great content that can help countless trauma warriors on their journey to recovery. So, please help us in supporting the podcast by becoming a recurring patron of the show via Patreon. Every bit helps!

 

Transcript:

Alyssa Scolari [00:24]:

Hi, everybody and surprise. We are dropping, well, I am dropping a special episode today. Today is October 10, 2020 and it is World Mental Health Day. So I wanted to drop this episode on this day because I think that there's a lot that we have to learn when it comes to mental health and a lot that we need to be doing to take care of ourselves right now, especially in the middle of this global pandemic.

Alyssa Scolari [00:57]:

So, I want to talk about this widely used term of self-care. So many people say, "Self-care, self-care, self-care." Well, what the hell does it actually mean? I think that when most people think of self-care, and I know that this is true for me, they think of something similar to this specific episode of Parks and Rec, all my Parks and Rec lovers out there, you all have to know what I'm talking about, with Tom and Donna. I'm actually going to play this clip for you right now because I think this is what so many people think self-care actually is. So, I'm going to play this.

Tom [01:39]:

Three words for you, treat yourself. Treat yourself 2011. Once a year, Donna and I spend a day treating ourselves. What do we treat ourselves to?

Donna [01:49]:

Clothes.

Tom [01:50]:

Treat yourself.

Donna [01:51]:

Fragrances.

Tom [01:51]:

Treat yourself.

Donna [01:52]:

Massages.

Tom [01:53]:

Treat yourself.

Donna [01:53]:

Mimosas.

Tom [01:54]:

Treat yourself.

Donna [01:55]:

Fine leather goods.

Tom [01:56]:

Treat yourself.

Donna [01:57]:

It's the best day of the year. [crosstalk 00:01:59] The best day of the year.

Alyssa Scolari [02:01]:

I love that clip so much. This is one of the funniest shows... Sidebar real quick. This is one of the funniest shows I've ever seen in my life. I did not know what Parks and Rec was until honestly, three years ago when my husband introduced it to me. He was like, "You have to watch this show," and we watched it. It was before we even got married and I laughed my ass off. If you have not watched the show yet, I don't know what you're waiting for, but it's what we all need in times like these. So I digress.

Alyssa Scolari [02:40]:

Back on track. Like I was saying, I think so many people think that self-care looks like, like Donna said: mimosas, fine leather goods, buying yourself a pair of diamond earrings, buying yourself a new car. I know for me when I was, I guess in my late teens, early twenties and I first started working, I thought self-care was going to get a manicure. So I would get my nails done every two weeks. I thought it was going to get a haircut. I thought it was buying the latest clothing, going shopping. I would spend way more money than I was actually bringing in all in the name of self-care. I'm stressed out. I had a hard day at work. I had a long day at grad school. I'm really tired. I'm going to go online. I'm going to buy myself some shoes. I'm going to buy myself a purse. I loved to shop because it made me feel better. It gave me a temporary relief. I think that that's what a lot of us do.

Alyssa Scolari [03:54]:

Don't get me wrong. I'm still a fan of some retail therapy. It's one of my favorite types of therapy, but it does become a problem when you don't incorporate other types of self-care or if you really don't understand what self-care even is. I actually was hurting myself in the long run because I was spending way more money than what I was making and really just for a quick fix. So I would feel better once I got my new Michael Kors purse or I ordered a Kate Spade phone case that I spent $90 on when I really didn't have $90 to spend. But then after a day or two, the newness wears off and you're back to feeling that sense of emptiness, I need something, I'm depressed, I'm stressed out.

Alyssa Scolari [04:50]:

So that's why I wanted to release this episode on World Mental Health Day about self-care because it's crucial to all of our well-beings. Just to make it clear, self-care is not just for people who have mental health issues or mental illness. Self-care is for everybody, whether you've been diagnosed with depression, anxiety, eating disorders, PTSD, bipolar disorder, or if you've never had a mental health diagnosis in your whole life, you still need self-care.

Alyssa Scolari [05:31]:

I think that the term self-care looks different for each and every one of us. And it also can look different for us each and every day, depending on what kind of mood we're in, where we're at emotionally, physically. My definition of what it means to take care of yourself, and this is something that I preach to my clients about and really try to internalize for myself, but my self-care is trying to honor the emotions that I'm feeling. So instead of trying to numb out, because I used to numb out and that's what I would consider self-care, I have a lot of anxiety right now, I don't like what I just ate because my eating disorder is telling me I shouldn't have eaten that, and what would I do? I would buy something online. I would buy makeup. I would maybe go out on getting more food to try and comfort the part of me that was feeling anxious.

Alyssa Scolari [06:39]:

I know in particular, when I was really little, I used to have these horrible fears of my mom dying. My mom was getting her master's degree. So she was working all day and then she would be in school at night. I would be home with my dad and with my brother. There were so many times where I remember sitting at the top of the steps at night waiting for her to get home and I had to be, I don't know, maybe six at the time. I would be sobbing and I would keep having these intrusive images that would come into my mind again, as a six year old. Who knows how these images even got in my brain? I was pretty much into Disney when I was a kid. So who knows, but I just remember having these really intrusive images flash into my brain of my mom being dead. It was gruesome and more often than not, it was a car accident. I would eat as a little kid to comfort myself.

Alyssa Scolari [07:55]:

So it would be maybe, I don't know, nine, 10 o'clock at night. I would find myself in the pantry sneaking food into my room to try to comfort myself from the horrible images that I was having of my mom being dead. So from a little kid, I had this idea of self-nurturing and self-care that really actually turned out to be very self destructive for me in the end. It was not self-care. As I mentioned earlier these days, it looks a little bit different for me. Instead of trying to numb out or stuff those feelings and emotions down, I try to honor them. So I recognize them. Instead of immediately jumping to try to forget about how I feel or ignore how I feel, I let those feelings come up. I talk about it. I reach out to my husband. I reach out to my friends. I write. I journal. Journaling has really been saving my life.

Alyssa Scolari [09:00]:

The Light After trauma blog that I started where I put out new blog posts every week has been really healing for me because it makes me accountable to write. I was always one of those people that was like, "Oh, I don't feel like writing. I have too much to do. I don't have time to journal," which is honestly a load of crap. So if that's an excuse that you use, that's a bunch of shit. The truth is that we are avoiding our feelings by not journaling. When I started to hold myself accountable and made myself write at least once a week, I noticed a major improvement in myself.

Alyssa Scolari [09:40]:

Other times for me, self-care looks like saying no. It can be as simple as that. I think that we feel so pressured to keep up with the Joneses, so to speak, and for me, I really had to let go of that. So, no, I don't have to go to every party I'm invited to. No, I don't have to say yes to every opportunity that comes my way. I've really learned how to say no to preserve my own sanity and my own mental health. That's really all about boundary setting, which honestly, I could do a whole episode on boundary setting and I'll probably do multiple episodes on boundaries throughout the podcast, but that's been huge for me in terms of self-care. Sometimes it's also as simple as getting outside on a nice night and looking at the stars and just getting out of your own head and your own problems, looking at the world around you, getting on the highway, seeing the trees, seeing the colors change. It's the most beautiful time of the year right now and a lot of these sensory things for me are self-care.

Alyssa Scolari [11:01]:

And again, what works for me may not work for all of you. It's about finding what works. So for the animal lovers out there, I know you all know, I love animals. Sometimes it's petting your dogs. Sometimes it's taking them on a walk. Hell, for me, some days it's petting my dogs and some days self-care looks like getting so far away from my dogs and being in total silence by myself. Sometimes self-care looks like turning on a murder podcast. I absolutely love the topic of murder and true crime. The My Favorite Murder podcast is one of my favorite podcasts of all time. So sometimes I'll just put my headphones on and listen to that and get into someone else's world and out of my own.

Alyssa Scolari [11:53]:

Another thing that's been really helpful for me lately is yoga and exercise. That might sound kind of cliche. I've been somebody who exercise my whole life, but I never really used it for self-care. Exercise for me was always a tool that added fuel to the fire that was my eating disorder. So I would exercise to burn calories. That's the only reason I did it. Exercised to tone, tone your butt, tone your arms, get that beach body. All that crap that the media tries to sell you on that really isn't attainable, that's the only reason why I ever worked out. But lately, I've been slowing it down a lot. I've been getting into the practice of yoga and I've been learning a lot about what kind of movement my body actually enjoys, what feels good, what doesn't feel good. I've actually stopped working out for the calories. It's been amazing.

Alyssa Scolari [13:04]:

In fact, I even went so far as to take off my Apple watch when I'm working out, which for anyone out there that struggles with eating disordered habits, or that might have an addiction to exercise, I know you all know how hard that is because all that matters is burning as many calories as possible on the Apple watch when you hit that workout setting. I've actually taken it off. And let me tell you something, if you have not done so, I highly recommend it because it's one of the best forms of self-care that I have ever done. I didn't spend a dime and it wasn't self destructive. If anything, it helped me to focus less on counting calories and getting toned and more on exercising as a way to take great care of myself.

Alyssa Scolari [13:59]:

So there are lots more things that I do to take care of myself. I could sit here all day and tell you, which is great because at one point, I really didn't have any ways that involved me taking care of myself or any methods for self-care. I've evolved a lot lately and I've been able to do so without breaking the bank, which I think society loves to tell us that the only way we can properly care for ourselves is to spend money, keep up with the trends, keep ourselves in good shape, et cetera. So, there's a million options for ways that you can self-care. It's as simple as making sure you drink enough water throughout the day, or it can be as complex as taking a trip to Fiji. Honestly, really depends on what's going on and what you need. But if you are looking for more ideas on self-care, you can certainly Google. A quick Google search is going to give you thousands of tips for self-care without ways to break the bank. These are really stressful times in the middle of a global pandemic, middle of a presidential election.

Alyssa Scolari [15:18]:

It is tough. So please, please, please make sure that you are taking care of yourself because you are loved and important and needed in this world. With that being said, I just want to continue to thank you all so much for the support on this podcast. We aren't even at eight weeks since the podcast has launched and we've got well over 700 downloads. I love you all. Shout out to everybody all over the world. We've got downloads in Ireland and Belgium and Australia and Norway and Canada and all over the United States. Shout out to Washington, especially, because you guys up there are really downloading the podcast a lot. It's just been an incredible experience and an honor, and I truly hope that my words and the words of the guests on the show are helping you.

Alyssa Scolari [16:17]:

If you are enjoying the podcast, I implore you to please rate the podcast, leave a review and share with your friends. Continue to download and subscribe. If you haven't yet, go sign up for the newsletter at alyssascolari.com. And don't forget to join the Light After Trauma Facebook group. We have a private Facebook group where you have access to different tips and tools and supplements to all the other podcast episodes. So be sure to check that out. Feel free to send me an email if there's any questions you have or any topics you want covered on the podcast. Thank you all so much again. You are amazing. Take great care.

Alyssa Scolari [17:06]:

Thanks for listening. Hope you enjoyed this episode. For more information about today's episode and to sign up for the Light After Trauma newsletter, head over to my website at alyssascolari.com. I'm also on Twitter and I'd love to chat with you guys. Be sure to follow me. My Twitter handle is AlyssaScolari. Thanks again for listening and take good care.

Alyssa Scolari [17:25]:

[music]

Denise R. Wolf, MA, ATR-BC, ATCS, LPC and Shea Rhodes, Esquire are the perfect dynamic duo making major changes in the world. They each bring their distinct backgrounds (law and trauma work) to offer an alternative approach to the hot debate of defunding the police versus backing the blue. 

For more info on Denise, check out: https://mangataservices.com/resources/ 

To learn more about Shea Rhodes and the Institute to Address Commercial Sexual Exploitation, check out: https://cseinstitute.org/staff/shea-m-rhodes/

or her TEDx talk: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ldw7e4G_t6Y 

 

Check out the Light After Trauma website for transcripts, other episodes, Alyssa's guest appearances, and more at: www.lightaftertrauma.com

Want to get more great content and interact with the show? Check us out on Instagram: @lightaftertrauma

We need your help! We want to continue to make great content that can help countless trauma warriors on their journey to recovery. So, please help us in supporting the podcast by becoming a recurring patron of the show via Patreon. Every bit helps!

 

Transcript:

Alyssa Scolari [00:00]:

Hey everyone. Happy Tuesday. Hope you guys are off to a great week so far. My name is Alyssa Scolari, and I am your host of the Light After Trauma podcast. Welcome to episode 10. Actually, know the number this time, because I'm recording the bio after I had the interviews, so I know for a fact that this is episode 10. This episode is really fun because it's not just me and one other person, but there are two other women that I am recording with in this episode. The first is Denise R. Wolf. And Denise is the owner and practitioner therapist of Mangata Services, as well as Adjunct Faculty at Drexel and Villanova Universities.

Denise is a licensed professional counselor, as well as a registered board certified and an art therapy certified supervisor through the art therapy credentials board. Denise received her DBT, dialectical behavioral t raining from the University of Washington, and has opportunity to learn directly from the DBT founder herself, Marsha Linehan. Denise has presented at city, state, national, and international conferences in the areas of DBT, trauma-informed care, trauma and neurobiology, pedagogy in clinical supervision. She has several articles published in peer review journals and has contributed chapters to seminal texts on our clinical work with adolescents.

And in addition to that, we also have Shea Rhodes Esquire. Shea M. Rhodes Esquire, has dedicated her career to combating gender-based violence. As co-founder and director of the institute to Address Commercial Sexual Exploitation at Villanova Law, Ms. Rhodes works with and for victims and survivors of commercial sexual exploitation. She is the statewide expert on Pennsylvania laws related to sex trafficking and commercial sexual exploitation.

Ms. Rhodes is a member of several local and national anti-trafficking initiatives, including Philadelphia's Anti-Trafficking Coalition, the Pennsylvania Anti-Human Trafficking Advocacy Work Group, and Shared Hope International’s JuST Response Council. She also sits on the executive committees for Worlds Without Exploitation and Dawn's Place. Her dedication resulted in Legal Intelligence naming her a 2019 power player.

She was awarded a Fulbright Schumann European Union Affairs Program scholarship to conduct a research in Austria and Sweden, during the 2020 to 21 academic year. Ms. Rhodes conducts trainings and presentations locally, nationally, and internationally. Her written materials can be found on the CSE institute website. She's a graduate of Villanova Law, in the University of Kansas.

So those are the two amazing women that I had the pleasure and opportunity to speak with for this episode. I know that this is a really hot topic, and I hope that you all enjoy. I found it fascinating, so hopefully you guys will enjoy it just as much as I did. So at this point I am going to turn it over to both Denise and Shea. I'm going to ask them to elaborate a little bit more on what it is that they do. They're doing some awesome stuff, so, hello to both of you and thank you so much for being here today.

Denise Wolf [04:00]:

Thanks Alyssa. This is Denise. I'm super glad to be here. This is a really exciting opportunity to talk about some really important things, Shea and I moving forward.

Shea Rhodes [04:08]:

Yeah. I'm so excited to be here, Alyssa. Thanks for inviting the two of us to talk today. I think that Denise and I have been collaborating on some really cool sort of real world, I don't know solutions to problems that we've been sitting around, just sort of like, "How are we going to solve the world's problems, while we're having cocktails?" And sort of take those ideas, and really put them into action.

Alyssa Scolari [04:38]:

Well, I was just going to say, you guys make the perfect... I mean, the two of you make the perfect team, right? Because Shea, so you were a prosecutor?

Shea Rhodes [04:47]:

I was.

Alyssa Scolari [04:49]:

And then could you just talk a little bit more about how that snowballed into what you're doing now?

Shea Rhodes [04:56]:

Sure. So I have been a practicing lawyer for over 20 years at this point, actually, about almost 25. And have spent my entire career mostly focused on working with or on behalf of people who've experienced inter-personal violence or violent crime. Prior to becoming a prosecutor, and I was a prosecutor for the city of Philadelphia for almost 10 years, I worked as an attorney inside of four different rape crisis centers. I focused on two rape crisis centers in the counties outside of Philadelphia, working with victims of sexual assault and stalking, whether it be a protection from abuse hearing, or custody matter or something like that. And when to work as a prosecutor is sort of my next step in looking to effectuate justice and bring some type of procreate resolution, at least in my mind using the law to someone who has had experienced being a victim of crime.

I thought I was going to be in the rape or sexual violence unit and did about 18 months working in those types of cases and just needed to take a break. They're really heavy cases, especially involving child abuse and went to the major trials unit, which is the unit that handles all violent crime with the exception of homicide. I spent about six years in that particular unit and then took a break from the trial division, because there's a lot of burnout in trying cases, especially the types of cases that I had been trying, which involved, police involved non-fatal shootings, really serious home invasions, gunpoint robberies, carjackings, stabbings.

Really, just violent crime, as you know, most big cities have, and thought I wanted to continue being a prosecutor, but shifted my responsibilities to the pre-trial unit, where we were looking to divert cases out of the trial division and come up with some resolution that didn't result in someone being convicted. And I was working in drug diversion courts and DUI diversion, mental health court was a huge part of what I did, both at the common police court level, which is the felony level and at the municipal court level.

And I was also working in a court for women who had repeatedly been convicted of the crime of prostitution and it's now a nationally known problem solving court called Project on Court. And again, it was sort of like coming full circle with my career and working with women specifically who had experienced inter-personal or sexual violence, and someone who's in prostitution is experiencing... at least the women that I've worked with, emotional and physical trauma on a day-to-day basis, in addition to the fact they were experiencing mental health diagnoses, co-occurring substance use disorder as a way of coping with the prolonged exposure to trauma that they've suffered.

And when I left the district attorney's office, I created the institute that I now run at Villanova Law School called the Institute to Address Commercial Sexual Exploitation. And it was at that point we were pretty new, it was the fall of 2014, we were just kind of getting our feet wet, myself and my partner who's a professor of law at Villanova, Michelle Dempsey, she's amazing. Figuring out how we were going to take this institute and what we were going to do, and that's when I met Denise, because she is an adjunct professor at Villanova on the other side of the [inaudible 00:08:48] tracks at Villanova.

And she just reached out to me and asked me to come over and speak to her class. Not sure if it was your class at Villanova or Drexel, I think there were two that semester, Denise, I can't remember, but you and I hit it off immediately and just started having these really incredibly long conversations about trauma, and my having been in law enforcement for a long time, and working with victims of violent crimes who've experienced trauma and what is the best way to effectuate justice and get closure for them. And I don't know, it just kind of morphed from there.

Denise Wolf [09:25]:

Yeah, absolutely. So it's a great story how Shea and I met. So I was working as adjunct at Villanova and Drexel, both at the time. And went to a screening of a movie called I Am Jane Doe, and it was the inaugural screening, there were a lot of stakeholders who were there. I'm also talking about the movie afterwards and inviting questions from the audience, and this was a movie about young adolescents who'd been trafficked. And so Shea started talking and I just had this professional crush on Shea, you know what I mean? I'm like, "Oh my God, I need this person in my life." So I like to say that I professionally stalked Shea. And I just felt like there was a connection between us and that there was a lot of synergy in our work.

Shea Rhodes [10:14]:

Yeah. I'd forgotten that you had, because you didn't come up to me when you were in the audience. Or if you did, I was surrounded by five million people.

Denise Wolf [10:23]:

You were surrounded. I spoke to you briefly and I got your card, and then I emailed you that night.

Shea Rhodes [10:28]:

Yeah. I give out so many cards that I do speak in engagements quite frankly, all over the world and I give out a million cards, and sometimes you hear from people and you don't. And the ones that you hear from like within the first day or two, you are really going to connect with and have some sort of long-standing relationship. And it doesn't happen as frequently as you would think, usually, it's like, "Can I have your PowerPoint? Or can you send me more resources?" But Denise was like, "Let's have a conversation and I want you to talk to my students." Because there's a lot of things that I do in my career now that I never thought I would be doing, right.

When I was in law school, which is the policy work, and how policy is very much related to the laws and regulations that society's asked. And it's really in my opinion critical for lawyers to be involved, especially lawyers who at some point during their career practiced in shaping how other professions really look at, like what laws and rules that their job is to enforce. Just as an example, we've recently been asked to look at whether or not nationally each state should have a law that mandates that all people within the medical profession should be trained about sexual exploitation and sex trafficking.

And, I think it's a great idea in concept, sure, why shouldn't all people in the medical profession and who touch healthcare systems be trained in how to identify, recognize, and treat victims of... and I use that term victim because, it's a term that's used in the law of sex trafficking or sexual exploitation. But a lot of what people don't realize is that it's in the implementation, we can pass laws all day every day, but what's it going to look like in implementation? What is [inaudible 00:12:26] going to look like? Who's going to develop it? Who's going to teach it? How are you going to be ensured that you get it? Should it be updated? Should it be consistent and on-going?

In the space of sex trafficking and exploitation, it's like, "Are you going to have survivors who've exited or escaped their victimization and are now working as professionals in the field? Are they going to be included in developing curriculum? So that's just like one example of, sort of the intersection of what I believe lawyers who working in the space of policy and legislative reform have to offer other professions and why there needs to be a synergy.

Alyssa Scolari [13:14]:

Yeah. And that's why you guys make the perfect cocktail so to speak, right? Because you've got the law, and then we've got the knowledge, right, of the trauma. And it's, "Oh, it's beautiful." Magic happens when we put the two together, which is exactly what you both are doing right now. So full disclosure everybody, I've had a couple of conversations with Denise and Shea about some things that they're working on prior to recording. So do you both want to talk about a few things that you're working on right now and kind of what your biggest project is, because it's fascinating?

Shea Rhodes [13:53]:

Sure. So one of the things that I do is keep my eye on certain legislation that is moving through at a minimum Pennsylvania's legislature, that's tied to criminal justice reform, it's tied to crimes of sexual violence or interpersonal violence, including sex trafficking. We write legislation, we're asked to weigh in about what our opinions are and I have been following a package of bills that has recently gone through. Some of them have passed the Pennsylvania legislature pertaining to the issue that has been front and center since, it's been part of my daily life in conversations, but police reforms and criminal justice reforms, but has been on the nation's mind front and center since the summer and the George Floyd protest started.

Denise and I jumped on the phone because we can't really meet in person like we used to, because of the pandemic, and just started having a conversation, like the trauma that people have been experiencing due to the pandemic just generally, right? Canceling amazing events, graduations that are happening in your living room versus with your class, weddings, baby-showers, funerals even, these rituals that we all have in society, that we haven't been able to participate in, and that's a bit of a trauma. Uncertainties about whether or not we're going to be sick, watching the news constantly about the numbers growing of people who have either gotten sick or passed from COVID.

And then at the same time, as if we're watching the U.S sort of open back up and people are doing it safely, the protest break out in Minnesota, and police become the target of the vitriol and the hatred. And I have so many close, dear, amazing friends who are in law enforcement, having spent 10 years in law enforcement, I have family who are in law enforcement, and I know what it's like to be in a profession where people make fun of you, lawyers are sharks, everybody has that lawyer joke book laying on your desk, but I've been checking in with a lot of my friends, "Are you okay?" So Denise and I started to have this conversation and I'm going to let you go Denise because, you're the one who wants to talk, so...

Denise Wolf [16:29]:

Sure. So, I'm a professor and also a therapist in private practice working with trauma for little over 20 years as well. And so trauma became something that I was exposed to, right, like this concept of trauma theory. It wasn't really part of my graduate education. I was working in residential care with adolescents and I had the opportunity to start attending trainings. I was trained in the neuro-sequential mode of therapeutics, which is a really neuroscience brain-based approach to treating trauma. And so this idea that the behaviors that we do are oftentimes a result of trauma, right? It changes the brain.

And so I do this for 20 years, thinking about the context of why people do certain behaviors, right? Why people that we find reprehensible, right? Their actions unfathomable or disgusting. I'm looking at them with compassion, through the lens of trauma, through the lens of brain changes that impact the way that we engage with the world. So this becomes my work, I dive into this, this is my clinical practice, this is my teaching, and one informs the other, right? I can come into class and talk about what's happening in my clinical work and clinical work is informed by the contemporary literature, so this is a really nice synergy.

And then, Shea talked about, we are moving into the pandemic, right, and into living with COVID. And then on top of that, so that's already one collective trauma that we're living in. And then on top of that, we find ourselves living in a collective trauma of racism. So after the murder of George Floyd, and that's my personal opinion, right, of how I see that as a murder. I called Shea and I said, "Shea we are two smart educated women with lots of access and some privilege, but what can we do? Right. I'm feeling like this is our opportunity." The kids would say, "Don't talk about it, be about it." Right? So how can we take this amazing cocktail mixture, right, of like Shea's legal super powers, and Shea's boots on the ground understanding of this system and my understanding of trauma.

And not just trauma, but trauma in systems, right. Working in residential care, working in schools, what can we do together? So this is like the beginning of our dream, which is this opportunity to work with the police towards de-stigmatizing mental health care. Right? And treating trauma. And looking at what looks like and what is called police brutality, not just as acts of hateful racism, but as responses to trauma that the police officers... what they see and do and experience every day, impacts their brain, just the way that it changes anybody else who's not a police officer. Not saying that their behaviors are okay, approving of them, but understanding them and then working to create change.

Shea Rhodes [19:41]:

Yeah. And that's something that I've thought about for a really long time and I tried a lot of violent crimes cases, right? And when you are a prosecutor, you are seeking to do a number of different things, but you're using the criminal laws and the criminal statutes, and you go on trial and you have to prove that someone was guilty beyond a reasonable doubt for meeting the elements of a crime. Right? And I can't tell you how many times I didn't have the language, Denise has taught me a lot about the language, right? That I would leave and just like not have the ability to think anymore.

But I did have a really clear understanding, that I was asking people who had been victims of gun violence or their homes been invaded or other things like to get on a witness stand and explain to a whole bunch of strangers sitting in the jury box, what had happened to them. I'm asking them to in effect, relive the trauma, and those are the ones who were the victims of that actual crime. But also asking police officers and detectives to get on that same witness stand and talk about why they went to that location? What they saw when they got there? Why did the detectives take those photographs? Who went to the hospital just to see if the victim was going to survive that particular incident of gun violence?

I always went out to the crime scenes if I was going to take a case all the way to a jury trial and I would try to go at the same time of day that the crime occurred. So if it was crime that happened in the dark, I wanted to be able to put myself into the positions of the responding police officers and see what they were seeing like, "Where were the streetlights? Were they using flashlights?" And they're asked to do this day after day, after day.

And again, not having a language I had during my prosecutorial career, but having it now is like the trauma isn't necessarily having to... they're not experiencing it themselves personally and physically, sometimes they are, right? I mean, I know police officers who've been shot at, who've been hit by cars, who've been dragged by car, I mean terrible, awful things. But I also know the wonderful, good things that they do right, they're asked to respond to domestic violence calls to stop violence, they get people out of burning buildings and burning cars and they see a lot of things, that you and I don't see in real time.

We might see it on the nightly news at night time, but they're seeing it and they then have to get back in their patrol car and go to the next call. And this is a national thing, right? Don't have feelings, show up, be professional, do your job. And I've noticed that even myself being like a hardcore Gen Xer working round the clock, not knowing, thinking these words, self-care for social workers, sorry Denise, but like, that's what you social-working people do, right? Like self-care, what's that? It's like, "Put the file in the drawer and get another one out and keep going."

Leaving that day-to-day practice of law and running this institute inside of academia has just been really brilliant, I've learned so much from Denise about my own vicarious trauma, right? Why I would try a six cases in a row, and then basically be a crybaby for a month before I geared up to do it. It's vicarious trauma, it gets on you, it gets in your skin. But we're asking police to not recognize that in themselves, and just get up and keep going and get up and keep going, and show up at the next call and help the next person, and we don't ask them to take care of their brain.

Alyssa Scolari [23:37]:

Yeah. It's an impossible ask, right? And I don't think that I even realized that myself until I started working with the local police department as the therapist with them. And I remember this very clearly, I had just started working with them, and there was an incident where a beloved member of the community was in a terrible accident, when she passed away, and her daughter was in the car, the daughter was alive, but just seeing how the police officers reacted, being on the inside and seeing how badly that had shaken them up, I thought to myself like, "Oh no, we're not dealing with monsters, we're dealing with people who have been deeply, deeply traumatized with little to no support and that's a big problem."

Denise Wolf [24:47]:

And then vilified, right? And vilified as well to boot. I feel like most of them, well, a lot of the police officers that I spoke with join the police force because they want to serve the communities. It's almost social worky and it's sort of worked, right? And I understand as well the history of policing in this country growing from old racist roots to protect White property, right? I mean, that's the roots of the police in this country. So...

Alyssa Scolari [25:16]:

They return runaway slaves to their masters, let's be super clear.

Denise Wolf [25:20]:

Right. Thank you. And it's a both and, right, modern, I think contemporary police largely are to protect and serve the communities that they live in. And continual exposure to what therapists talk about as big T and little t trauma, like capital and lowercase trauma. The small sort of collective traumas, known as the bigger traumas of living in a dangerous environment, being shot at, not having a social support, spending time in dangerous areas or war torn areas. Right? So all of these things we know, have an impact on our brains, which impacts our ability to think clearly, right? And make good decisions.

Shea Rhodes [26:01]:

Yeah. Touching on something, Denise, it just brought up something for me. Our police systems were created for certain reasons, has a lot to do with systemic racism that we're still seeing and trying to solve and get better at, I believe as a society. But society has asked for policing and they continue to ask for policing and investigations is a huge part of it, right? Anybody who comes home and their house has been ransacked and hopefully they'll call the police, and that the police would be able to solve who broke into their home, because living in a house that's been broken into has got to be terrifying.

I think that we as society again ask police officers to show up and be professional all day, every day with their gun and their badge and their handcuffs. Literally their toolkit that they take to work on a tool belt that they wear around their waist. Right? Yet we as society have not said to them, "You must take care of your brain." And you take your brain to work with you every day, and you use your brain every single day, and then you leave work and you take your brain with you, and that doesn't mean you can compartmentalize and shut it off.

Police officers put on that uniform every single day and they've all taken an oath to protect and serve, and they have that tool belt with their tools on it, around their waist, their gun and their badge and their handcuffs. And hopefully they only use certain tools like their gun once a year, when they have to go to the range to qualify, to prove that they can still shoot it effectively, right? I'm pretty sure every single police officer that I've ever spoken to is like, "Yeah, that's the only time I've ever used my gun on duty, is when I've been at the range qualifying."

And that's how most of them really feel. But they use their brain every single day, and we don't ask them to do de-briefs after witnessing a horrific car accident or responding to a horrific car accident or terrible instances of child abuse, interpersonal violence, sexual violence, gun violence on the streets, if you're talking about a major urban city. We don't ask them to look at their brain as a tool and that you have to take care of your brain.

And they shoved the feelings down and let's be super clear, your feelings come from your brain. And if you keep shoving them down and not taking care of them, it's not going to continue to be healthy, and that's really scary. It's really scary. I'm not scared for society, I'm scared for them.

Denise Wolf [29:02]:

Yep.

Alyssa Scolari [29:02]:

Yes.

Shea Rhodes [29:03]:

Obviously, I'm scared for society, right? But I'm truly scared for them. I want them to be healthy. I want them to go home to their husbands, and their wives, and their kids, and their moms, and their dads, and their friends. And I want them to go home and be healthy and sleep at night. I don't sleep at night.

Alyssa Scolari [29:22]:

Yeah.

Denise Wolf [29:25]:

As a therapist educator, I talk about, this idea of self-care a lot. And self-care becomes this really sort of overused and almost silly word in contemporary culture, in terms of, I think therapists and police officers and lots of other people I'm leaving out. But the idea is our body is our tool, right? We're not [inaudible 00:29:45]-

Alyssa Scolari [29:46]:

Denise, emergency room physicians, it's the same thing.

Denise Wolf [29:49]:

Right. I mean doctors, nurses, I mean, ambulance drivers, there's a whole list of people who are, our body is our tool. We are not operating a machine, we're not like, I don't [inaudible 00:29:58] I can't give any other examples, but our physical self and our person and our brain is our tool. And so like, "I drive my car every day, I take that, I get it, I get oil change, all of the things."

And so in therapist role, this is a growing idea, of this idea of how do we take care of our person with the therapist, right? And for police officers, what does this mean? We ideally want a police officer who's going to be able to make good decisions quickly and protect the needs of the community and yet we're not giving them any hope or tools to care for themselves.

Alyssa Scolari [30:36]:

Absolutely.

Shea Rhodes [30:37]:

And I think that it's an accumulation, right? This has been going on, I feel pretty much the last two decades. This is something that we've really been talking about, right? Like, how are we going to solve issues of police brutality, of the systemic racism within not just policing, but within society at large. And Denise and I talked about this so much, we might be looking at it, not in the right lens. We need to treat the trauma, like where does this come from?

Alyssa Scolari [31:20]:

Absolutely. Because we've got, let's be clear that yes, there is systemic racism and that is not at all, we are not negating that. And this is really not about choosing political sides, this is about taking what's going on and looking at it through the lens of trauma, which really is the goal in this podcast and in all the episodes, and all the topics that I discuss is, can we look at this through the lens of trauma? And can we try to look at police officers not as monsters, but as humans who have been so deeply traumatized with such little support that they're constantly in fight or flight mode. And when you're in fight mode and you're in that mode constantly, these things are going to happen, because their nervous system is never regulated.

Shea Rhodes [32:18]:

Yeah. And that's a problem. I can just relate it to my profession, right? I work with and on behalf of survivors of sex trafficking and sexual exploitation, all day every day. I've been doing that exclusively for the last seven years at this institute that I created a Villanova. But before that working with victims of violence, right? And it impacts me, my ability to think on my feet as a lawyer, to solve someone else's legal problems and there is no me in my feelings when it comes to solving the legal problem of someone who's experienced really horrific trauma, but their trauma impacts me.

And what do I need to do to take care of myself so that I am the best lawyer, the best advocate, that shows up for my clients and the people I advocate on behalf of every single day? And if you're doing it day in and day out and day in and not taking care, like if I don't take care of my brain, then I'm not going to be the sharpest lawyer I can possibly be to make the best legislative and policy changes to write a petition in the best fashion, making the best arguments in court, or even showing up for the lawyers I supervise and being their best supervisor and that's really I think important for anyone who's working with a population that's experiencing trauma. And let's be super honest, police officers are working in a community and responding to what could potentially be catastrophic, traumatic events within that community.

Denise Wolf [34:12]:

Well, what we're working on now, in terms of like accessing the officer's in some ways, is like we're pushing up against stigma, right? And stigma that exists I think that generally culturally in mental health, but more specifically in the police force as far as, what does access to services look like and what does services even look like? So Shea and I have conducted some focus groups with urban police district.

Shea Rhodes [34:39]:

Yeah. I mean, I would say it's particular law enforcement agency that expands. It's not exclusively urban, but it's also suburban and they're multi-jurisdictional, but have a specific role within policing that also makes them incredibly unique.

Denise Wolf [34:55]:

I love your words. So we've been implemented in a few focus groups via Zoom and asking some of like part of it was didactic like, "This is sort of a one-on-one understanding of trauma, here are some of the big T and little t traumas, here are some of the variances of trauma that might impact you." Or like, "Here's what trauma looks like, sort of behaviorally and emotionally for the impact of trauma." And then we moved into a discussion of, what would services look like? Would they be internal or external, right? Would this be sort of through your EAP or would it happen in your in-house?

Would you attend a debriefing after a critical incident or use of lethal force? Would you refer someone to services? How would you feel if you were referred to services? And we're really bumping up against, a bit of a wall in terms of, in these focus groups people for the most part, people are engaged and openly discussing, but these are our focus groups, they're not necessarily representative of the extent of the force.

Shea Rhodes [35:59]:

And this is not been surprising to me at all, right? They're incredibly thoughtful, they are really concerned about the community that they serve, they're very concerned about their colleague community, and they don't readily have the tools that they need at the ready to solve the issues as they see percolating. And it's almost like, "I recognize it, but I can't do a warm handoff. Or I can't say, call Denise and do that debriefing that she discussed. Or call this number and somebody is going to be immediately there, it's going to be confidential and non-judgmental and all of those things."

And it's great that Denise and I have had these really thoughtful, wonderful conversations, but also we're looking to give them the concrete tools that they're asking for, which is so important, right? It's one thing for them to start realizing like, "Hey, wow, we do need this." Or, "Yeah, I saw that in my colleague, and I've noticed that over the past six weeks since that incident happened, that they have just not been bringing their best self to work, now what do I do?" That's there's a gap, they just don't have it at the ready. It's not something that's an internal [inaudible 00:37:33].

Alyssa Scolari [37:34]:

They don't have it at the ready and I think that it also, they're stopped because of stigma, right?

Denise Wolf [37:34]:

Yeah.

Alyssa Scolari [37:40]:

So theoretically, I think that they do buy into that and they do understand it, but when it comes to putting it into practice, it's very difficult to do because of stigma and this idea that they should be, mental health is equal to weakness and I think a lot of police officers almost look at. And when you mentioned EAP, Denise, I just want to be clear for the listeners out there that, that is basically support through your employers. And a lot of police officers are trained to not trust, right? They're trained to serve and protect, but they're also trained to not trust, especially, if they're in a high-risk situation, so they have a very hard time trusting support that even is available to them.

Denise Wolf [38:30]:

Right. And it's also, it can feel really sort of like the opposite of a one handoff. If you contacted your employee assistance program or EAP and that you might get a referral and there might be 15 or 20 different people on this piece of paper or an email and so how do you pick the right one? And it becomes like, "Forget about it, I'm not going to do it anyway." Right. Because of trust, and because of ease of access.

Yeah. Interestingly enough, we asked if there were going to be like therapeutic or counseling, seems like a more palatable with the police force than therapy. So instead, if there's going to be supportive counseling, would that person be internal or within the police force or external? And I think our experience largely was that it was pretty split and people made a really strong case for either.

Shea Rhodes [39:17]:

Yeah. I think that stigma in mental health, is something that is not profession specific. I think that there is a stigma just surrounding the issue of mental health, just globally, right? And there's no stigma against people who have a heart condition, or who have diabetes, but there's, you take medicine for that and you could potentially take medicine for a mental health diagnosis. It's just, the conversations that Denise and I have had and even I using some of the tools and information that Denise and I have really drilled down in over these years, I've developed a curriculum for lawyers on how to be a trauma-informed lawyer and that's in dealing with your clients. But also a component of that is how to ensure that you were showing up and being the best lawyer you can to solve someone's legal problems.

And I think that the way that we decided to approach these particular focus groups was like, "Let us tell you what trauma is. Here's how trauma impacts your brain." It's almost like if you slam your finger in the car door, you're probably going to break it, right? I don't know, I'm not articulating it very well Denise, but like explain to them like the impact of traumatic events over a long period of time on the different parts of your brain and how we as human beings are just an incredibly resilient species in the sense that our brain takes care of our bodies. Right? Which is why you have specific trauma response, fight, flight, freeze, or even fawning, right? That's the new one that we've all been talking about and we do that because we're biologically wired to survive.

But when you're not recognizing a trauma or having the ability to process it, it just gets shoved down. And that's when you were saying, Alyssa, "It just gets flipped on. The switch gets flipped on and you don't have the ability to distinguish a reaction based on that moment in time, it's sort of like your body going into pattern behavior." Denise, what's that one thing you always talk about? You get in your car and you meant to go someplace, but you ended up at work.

Denise Wolf [41:52]:

Oh, right. When brains are lazy, right? And so the trauma response becomes sort of the lazy road or the user road. The more you're exposed to trauma, the more your brain is going to just go into fight, flight, freeze or fawn instead of regulating the nervous system and getting to the prefrontal cortex, where thinking and logic happens. And so I gave the example of, you ever get in your car and you were like trying to, you maybe want to go to your friend's house, and instead you find yourself almost all the way to work. Right? And so like what happened there? And when you sort of tuned out, your brain goes in autopilot and the trauma response becomes autopilot.

Alyssa Scolari [42:33]:

Yep. That becomes the default. And it's a dark hole you get sucked in. But the two of you are doing the work, so basically just as I understand it, these focus groups are made up of law enforcement members, and right now you're in the process of getting feedback on the best way to provide concrete services, as well as educating them on not just trauma and the theoretical aspect, but the concrete, what does this look like in your brain? What is trauma? How does it affect you? Neuro-plasticity all that good stuff.

Shea Rhodes [43:11]:

There shouldn't be a stigma attached with it, that was my point that got off my tangent. But why should you be stigmatized for your brain doing what a brain does? Which is protect you and keep you alive. Right? Did I say that right Denise? Brain just does what it does.

Denise Wolf [43:28]:

Yeah. It's your brain doing its job. Right? Why are we going to judge that any more than we're going to judge your feet for having five toes?

Alyssa Scolari [43:36]:

Yeah.

Denise Wolf [43:39]:

So, yeah. And Shea can talk about the money, right, where that hopefully is coming from. So we have a proposal in with them, and it's sort of multi-tiered, there's some psycho lag that's happening in the proposal for all of the law enforcement, there are some smaller trainings for like peer support, so sort of like, train the trainer and get in that kind of in-house desire that was expressed in the focus group. Part of that also contains debrief, training for internal debrief groups after a critical incident, or say like recovery of a body, or other traumatic events. And then, the last part of that is individual counseling or support that would also happen in-house, so yeah. And Shea talk a little bit about where that money is hopeful to come from.

Shea Rhodes [44:29]:

So Pennsylvania's legislature just passed into law, it was Act 69 of this year 2020. And in this particular new law, they're talking about providing for trauma and suicide awareness and impact in officer training programs through a third-party provider, right? So what the law is asking or mandating at this point is that law enforcement must provide psychological support imperative to help officers maintain their health and high levels of job performance, right?

They're saying to police like, "You have to do this." Our legislature in Pennsylvania is like, "We have to help be part of the solution, which is rooted in a trauma response to police officers have the tools that they need to keep their brains healthy, to keep showing up every single day in a professional capacity, and going home to their kids or their wives, and their husbands at the end of their shift."

Alyssa Scolari [44:29]:

I love it.

Shea Rhodes [45:34]:

Right? And it's just like going to the range and qualifying every year with what you need to qualify to make sure that you can still shoot a gun and hit the target. We need to make sure that our brains are functioning in a healthy way and the legislature recognizes this. And so hopefully Denise and I will be able to build a training, that we can get funded through what the law has mandated, which I just think is really important. And I think we bring something really unique to the table A, in our partnership and our skill-sets, but also in the way that we go about our trainings are very conversational and we're really grounded and rooted in reality.

Alyssa Scolari [46:18]:

I love it.

Denise Wolf [46:19]:

Alyssa can I read? Would it be useful if I read? Or I'd like to read a paragraph from our proposal. Or is that-

Alyssa Scolari [46:25]:

Yeah. Oh yeah. I would love that.

Denise Wolf [46:30]:

Shea I'm going to start with not the trauma theory stuff, but current political and civil rights. Current political and civil rights crises have pushed forward a call for trauma-informed policing. But police officers are often deployed to deal with social problems such as substance abuse disorder, mental illness, and homelessness, there's often a gap in training preparedness for these events. This reality is in confluence with legislative changes for revising policing procedures as outlined in Pennsylvania House Bill 1910, now Act 59, mandating mental health evaluations for law enforcement officers, Which calls to address trauma-informed policing.

Specifically the new law calls for law enforcement agencies to quote, provide law enforcement officers with mental health evaluation for post-traumatic stress disorder, by a licensed mental health professional upon request of the officer, upon recommendation of a police chief, or other supervising law enforcement officer, or within 30 days of an incident of the use of lethal force during the course of law enforcement duty.

Shea Rhodes [47:31]:

Yeah.

Alyssa Scolari [47:31]:

Beautiful. That says it all.

Shea Rhodes [47:34]:

I can't tell you I think it's wonderful, but I think that we're at a real crossroads right now, just in society and how it is that we're going to start and continue hopefully taking care of one another. And I think that's something that we're living in a really polarized world right now. Polarized on so many things, right? Like if somebody is in a different political party than you are, or we've lost the ability to just be genuinely kind and take care of one another.

I don't see how we can continue to sustain ourselves in whatever professional capacity we do in the midst of a global pandemic, people rightfully protesting, we have just getting your voices heard and also just really taking care of one another. Right? It's the most wonderful things that I've seen are police engaging and there's no other ring anymore, right, than providing hugs and playing basketball in the neighborhoods while they're in uniform, or doing the car karaoke's and all the things that are just like the normal part of every day, when they get up and go to work, it gets missed. And I just think that we need to get back to the roots of stuff, which is like genuinely taking care of one another.

Alyssa Scolari [49:28]:

I love that. I mean it and I couldn't agree with you more. I think that instead of polarization, instead of choosing either back the blue or defund the police, it's let's shift and figure out how do we take care of each other in this, instead of hating each other through it. So I love that, I love what the two of you are doing. Like I said, "You both make the perfect cocktail. You are both power-house women." So, bless the universe for bringing the two of you together, because you all are doing great stuff. If people want to find out more about what you're doing, is there any sort of website that they can go to? Now I know, Shea you've given some bad ass TED Talks.

Shea Rhodes [50:18]:

Oh, I have. Yes, I did.

Alyssa Scolari [50:20]:

That I've watched.

Shea Rhodes [50:21]:

I was really nervous during my TED Talk [inaudible 00:50:23].

Alyssa Scolari [50:24]:

Well, you killed it, because they're damn good. But yeah, if people like want to learn more, is there any kind of resources or tips or websites that people can refer to? Anything like that?

Shea Rhodes [50:37]:

So Denise, I know you've got a new website up and running. You can always go to our website, which is the cseinstitute.org, we are constantly encouraging law enforcement and prosecutors and lawyers and those who serve victims of exploitation and or personal violence, sex trafficking to do so through a trauma-informed lens, we offer tons of trainings, we do people research, we provide direct legal services, there's all kinds of really, I think amazing stuff that, it's not me, it's my team that they just tirelessly work on all day every day, the lawyers and my students and my research assistants are just phenomenal.

I know that Denise has got a ton of ready tools and I mean, I am a nerd. I love to read and I think I'm proud of my nerd hashtag. But there's just so much information out there. Denise, do you have all of those sort of research, cool stuff up on your website? I really want people to read them.

Denise Wolf [51:42]:

Yeah, I will momentarily. But yeah, I'll load all of that Shea and I've been archiving related articles from contemporary literature and newspapers and magazines, so I would load that into my website and all that can be accessed there.

Shea Rhodes [51:58]:

That's perfect. And one of the things that we always try to do, and we did this before we did the focus groups, there is an amazing YouTube video out there, it's an animated YouTube video, it's called Trauma and the Brain. Just Google, YouTube Trauma and the Brain. It's animated. It's I don't think quite 10 minutes long?

Denise Wolf [52:19]:

Mm-mm [negative], nine minutes and some 40 seconds.

Shea Rhodes [52:22]:

It's so good. It's just so good. And it gives a really clear, concise overview of how trauma works in your brain, and what your brain's responses are. It's just, I'd love this little short animated video. We always, before we do these focus groups or anything, I send it to my students. I've played it in front of a million people, it's awesome.

Alyssa Scolari [52:49]:

I actually think I know exactly what video you're talking about and this will sound familiar to the listeners out there, because I have posted it in the podcast Facebook group, and I've referred people to it in previous episodes, where I sort of talk about the nuts and bolts of trauma, so to speak. It's like a cartoon video on YouTube, like an animation. And, yep, this should sound familiar to those of you who have listened to previous episodes. I'm going to post that video again, because that's a sign that we all need to watch it again, so I love that video.

Shea Rhodes [53:26]:

Cool.

Alyssa Scolari [53:27]:

Yeah. And I just thank you so much both for coming on today. It's been awesome to hear what you're doing. Keep up the good work.

Denise Wolf [53:36]:

Thanks Alyssa. We'll keep you posted.

Shea Rhodes [53:37]:

Yes. Thank you for having us.

Alyssa Scolari [53:40]:

Thank you. Take care.

Denise Wolf [53:44]:

Absolutely.

Alyssa Scolari [53:44]:

Thanks for listening everyone. For more information about today's episode and to sign up for the Light After Trauma newsletter, head over to my website at alyssascolari.com. The really great thing about being a part of this newsletter is that not only do you get weekly updates on new podcast episodes and blog posts, but you also get access to the private Facebook community, as well as access to all sorts of insider tips, resources, and info-graphs that supplement what we talk about on the show. You also can connect with me and other trauma warriors. I'm super active on the Facebook community and I look forward to talking with you.

Join Alyssa and Drew for some good laughs and great nuggets of wisdom. In this episode, Drew opens up about his deeply powerful journey to recovery from addiction as well as his mantra that everything we've been searching for in life is already within us. 

Learn more about world traveler and spiritual guide, Drew Assini, MA at his website: helpingfolksremember.org and be sure to check the Driveabout podcast to hear more from him. 

 

Check out the Light After Trauma website for transcripts, other episodes, Alyssa's guest appearances, and more at: www.lightaftertrauma.com

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We need your help! We want to continue to make great content that can help countless trauma warriors on their journey to recovery. So, please help us in supporting the podcast by becoming a recurring patron of the show via Patreon. Every bit helps!

 

Transcript:

Alyssa Scolari [00:23]:

All right. What's up, everybody? Hope you are having a good week so far. I am stoked for this episode. We have got my man, Drew Assini, here today. I have been so excited to do this episode. You guys will fucking love it. I know Drew personally. I met Drew in grad school, and this episode is going to be a little less structured than the normal episodes because that's Drew. Drew and I just love, love to talk. So we're going to be candid with Drew today, and I don't have a bio because the man can speak for himself. So I'm going to turn it over to you. Thank you so much for coming on the show. You want to tell everybody where the hell you're at right now? I'm so jealous.

Drew Assini [01:27]:

Well, it's an honor to be here. Thanks for having me. Yeah. I'm hanging out on an extended meditation. Well, I'm hanging out on an island here in Thailand on an extended meditation retreat vacation kind of vibe. Yeah, it's not a bad place to spend the apocalypse. Doing all right.

Alyssa Scolari [01:54]:

Yeah, the apocalypse. My god. Do you want to just tell everybody what you do, what you've done, your experience, your history? Give them the [spiel 00:02:07].

Drew Assini [02:07]:

Do you think I am... Well, yeah.

Alyssa Scolari [02:09]:

Yeah.

Drew Assini [02:11]:

Yes. So my name is Drew. Last name is Assini. I got a lot of formers in my bio now. So I'm like a former therapist/counselor guy, drug and alcohol. I spent a decade working in mental health, and then recently have let go of my letters, so I have a... I'm moving into whatever comes after the therapist role or identity for me. So 10 years working predominantly with addiction. Yeah, lots of experiences, lots of fun stories. Also, former college professor, college instructor. I spent some time at a couple different institutions teaching undergrad and graduate programs, teaching in those programs. It's where we met when I was trying to fit in to being a college professor, which was... Yeah, it's quite the experience and...

Alyssa Scolari [03:04]:

Quite the experience. Yeah, so I met Drew in... God, what year was it? It was 2014 when I started grad school, and I was in a research lab, and Drew was... What technically was your position?

Drew Assini [03:26]:

That was fall of 2014, right?

Alyssa Scolari [03:29]:

Fall of 2014. Yeah.

Drew Assini [03:31]:

Yeah. Oh, dude, I was coming back for spending that summer in the jungle, drinking Ayahuasca, and... Yeah, I was barely... My feet were barely touching the ground that whole year.

Alyssa Scolari [03:43]:

Wait. What is Ayahuasca?

Drew Assini [03:46]:

Oh, oh, yeah. That's a whole another episode. It's a plant medicine from the Amazon, from South America.

Alyssa Scolari [03:54]:

Is that where you were, South America?

Drew Assini [03:55]:

Yeah, yeah. I spent six weeks in Peru that summer. Yeah. It was amazing, amazing experience. Yeah, Ayahuasca is the natural plant version of exposure therapy, but on fast-forward and like volume 12, right? You puke, and you see weird shit, but anywho.

Alyssa Scolari [04:17]:

Oh, is it... It's like trippy?

Drew Assini [04:21]:

Oh, yeah, yeah. It's like one of the strongest psychoactive substances on the planet easily. Yeah, yeah.

Alyssa Scolari [04:26]:

But it's legal?

Drew Assini [04:30]:

There, it is. You can't go and buy them in the corner store in the States nowhere.

Alyssa Scolari [04:37]:

What's the purpose of it? What does it do for you?

Drew Assini [04:41]:

So in the South American culture, it's used as a rite of passage and also as a... One dude I spoke to down there said every year or every other year, he would come, and he would participate in the ceremony that had a lot of intention and... Yeah, a lot of intention, and the purpose was to show up for healing for your own growth, your own awakening, your own healing. So you drink this medicine, and then you have a four to six-hour ceremony where you're under the influence or opened up to different states of awareness or consciousness and that... Yeah. So it's used in their culture as a rite of passage and as a cleansing.

It's become more popular for White folks and Americans as a psychospiritual adventuring, but also, it's gaining a lot more attention and rightly so for the work it can do with people with trauma like deep shit, whether it's addiction or mental health stuff because it... Yeah, the medicine really cracks you open. You know how MDMA therapy now? It helps people do years' worth of therapy in an eight-hour session potentially.

Alyssa Scolari [05:55]:

Yeah, yeah.

Drew Assini [05:55]:

It's a lot like similarly like that.

Alyssa Scolari [05:57]:

It's like that?

Drew Assini [05:58]:

Yeah, except MDMA is... It's a chemical. It's produced, whereas this is a... It's a tea that's made out of plants from the Amazon, so.

Alyssa Scolari [06:08]:

Damn, that's amazing.

Drew Assini [06:09]:

Super cool shit, man.

Alyssa Scolari [06:10]:

Yeah, that's so cool, especially... I mean, for healing, just to open you up to another realm. I'm assuming people with repressed memories of trauma like myself, that'd be perfect for because it just opens you up.

Drew Assini [06:29]:

Yeah. It can definitely accelerate the healing process and get to places that you might not be able to access through talk therapy alone.

Alyssa Scolari [06:39]:

Woo, I might be down in the Amazon this fall.

Drew Assini [06:45]:

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Alyssa Scolari [06:46]:

I might be taking a break from this podcast.

Drew Assini [06:50]:

It's cool. Just be ready to puke your guts off and stuff because it's...

Alyssa Scolari [06:54]:

Why do you puke? Just because...

Drew Assini [06:57]:

It's called a purgative. So the idea on some level is that if you're drinking the medicine, it's in your body, and then you throw out all the shit.

Alyssa Scolari [06:57]:

Ah, you're like purging out the...

Drew Assini [07:05]:

Yes, you got it.

Alyssa Scolari [07:08]:

Ah, that's not as fascinating.

Drew Assini [07:10]:

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Alyssa Scolari [07:10]:

Okay. We got off track already.

Drew Assini [07:14]:

So yeah. We literally were like five minutes in and totally left you out. So good.

Alyssa Scolari [07:20]:

Yup, and right before we started recording, we were like, "All right. How are we going to stay on track?" Then, we started recording, and here we are. All right. Reeling it back in.

Drew Assini [07:20]:

Yeah.

Alyssa Scolari [07:32]:

So 2014, I started grad school, and you were the... Were you the assistant professor in the research lab? Who were you? I didn't know. I thought you were just some cool guy that just...

Drew Assini [07:50]:

Say it out.

Alyssa Scolari [07:51]:

No.

Drew Assini [07:55]:

They just didn't throw me out, so I stayed. So I was an instructor, and I think I was a three-quarter-time instructor, right? So I was like super adjunct, but they gave me an office, and I thought three classes a semester. Then, I had gone to school there, right? So I've gone through the same grad program and was an undergrad there. So I had a relationship with the department and our research lab coordinator, research lab... the faculty that ran it.

Alyssa Scolari [08:23]:

Okay.

Drew Assini [08:24]:

So it's just a natural fit for me to keep being around. It was just now I had a different official role, but I was still... Yeah, I was still just showing up as me and bringing that to the table, so.

Alyssa Scolari [08:37]:

Yeah. Grad school was, for me, one of the toughest times of my life not because of grad school, but when I first started... So grad school started in August, late August of 2014, and then that October, I went into a partial hospitalization program at Renfrew for an eating disorder. So I was in treatment from 8:00, 8:00 to 3:30, Monday to Friday. I would leave treatment, go to grad school, and be in school all night. When I joined the lab and you were there, you were the perfect comedic relief because everything in grad school, especially when you first start, they try to weed out the weak ones. I mean, they really do.

Drew Assini [09:35]:

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Alyssa Scolari [09:36]:

It's like survival of the fittest when you start.

Drew Assini [09:38]:

Yeah.

Alyssa Scolari [09:38]:

So every day, every professor, I think they rehearse a speech. It's like, "If you're in this profession to make money, get out now because you won't make money, and you shouldn't be working full-time, and you shouldn't be working at all because your whole life needs to revolve around this." They do everything sort of threatening you to see if you'll stay.

Drew Assini [10:01]:

Yeah, and they give you like a hundred articles to read, like an impossible amount of literature to get through between now and the next class. Yeah.

Alyssa Scolari [10:12]:

Yup, yup.

Drew Assini [10:12]:

Yeah. Yeah.

Alyssa Scolari [10:13]:

It is. It's like fucking Survivor. They're like, "God speed. Here you go, a thousand pages. Good luck."

Drew Assini [10:23]:

Yeah. 100%.

Alyssa Scolari [10:23]:

"See you next week."

Drew Assini [10:23]:

Yup.

Alyssa Scolari [10:23]:

Or, "Hope I don't see you." "Hope you drop out of the race between now and then."

Drew Assini [10:29]:

Right. Yeah.

Alyssa Scolari [10:30]:

Dude, and the thing is, is that so many people dropped out of the race. When I graduated, I think there were five people in my cohort. Five of us graduated, and I think there were 15 of us who started.

Drew Assini [10:45]:

Yeah. For me, I think we started with 12, and then we finished with three. But that was also a semester where the school was like... I don't know. There was a question around the accreditation. So you had to take a leap of faith at that point. I remember that's September.

Alyssa Scolari [11:02]:

Oh.

Drew Assini [11:03]:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I just leaned in to the experience.

Alyssa Scolari [11:05]:

Yeah.

Drew Assini [11:06]:

For me, I love grad school because there were three of us by the end of it, and so every class was like three of us and some seasoned psychologists. I mean, we just picked their brain. Yeah. It was cool, but definitely, it's easy to get sucked up in the seriousness and how loud everything is. For sure.

Alyssa Scolari [11:30]:

Absolutely, and you were one of the people who made things feel a lot more manageable. You also had your own... It was a meditation yoga studio, right?

Drew Assini [11:46]:

Yeah. Yeah, across the street from the school.

Alyssa Scolari [11:50]:

When did you open that?

Drew Assini [11:52]:

That fall because I came back... Yeah. At that point, I've been working in the field for only three or four years, and I was already over it. I went to the jungle and had my experiences, and I came back. It was very clear that I wanted to do my thing my way, which was more healing and incorporating lots more alternative approaches, embodied approaches to healing, and recovery, and all that. So yeah, I opened the spot across the street from the school. We had regular classes. We had a school, and I ran my private practice out of there. That was a fun time, man. I had the center, and I had a bike. I would ride my bicycle from the center to my office on campus, and then teach, and hang out with the students, and do lab. That was really... Yeah. My heart is feeling... good feeling, I see.

Alyssa Scolari [12:44]:

All the nostalgia? Yup.

Drew Assini [12:45]:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Alyssa Scolari [12:46]:

It was so fun, and it would be the best when you're on campus, and you just see Drew on his bike. It's the best. He waves, and you wave, and people who don't know Drew were like, "Oh, who's that? You know that guy?" You're like, "Yeah, dude. That's my professor on his bike."

Drew Assini [13:08]:

Yeah.

Alyssa Scolari [13:11]:

I came to your studio quite a few times.

Drew Assini [13:11]:

Mm-hmm [affirmative].

Alyssa Scolari [13:15]:

You would have like that one... So your studio is when I first learned about the bliss that is restorative yoga.

Drew Assini [13:23]:

Oh, nice.

Alyssa Scolari [13:24]:

Holy shit, guys. If you have never tried restorative yoga, you have no idea what you're missing. It's the best experience in the world.

Drew Assini [13:33]:

Yeah.

Alyssa Scolari [13:33]:

Well, probably second to Ayuasaca. Is that how you say it?

Drew Assini [13:38]:

No. Ayuas? No. Restorative yoga is probably much more pleasurable than Ayahuasca to your health. Yeah.

Alyssa Scolari [13:49]:

Did I say that right?

Drew Assini [13:51]:

I thought you were going to say like... I thought you were going to say next to orgasm, but I'm like... Anyway. Yeah.

Alyssa Scolari [13:57]:

I mean, maybe that too.

Drew Assini [13:59]:

Yeah.

Alyssa Scolari [13:59]:

Restorative yoga is probably better than that.

Drew Assini [13:59]:

Yeah.

Alyssa Scolari [14:01]:

But that's when I first learned meditation. I had never meditated before, and I remember my friend, Kate. So Kate and I used to... We would show up at your studio. How early? Jesus, it was like 6:00 AM. I mean, it was dark out when we would come for meditation in the morning, and I don't get out of bed for anything. I don't do mornings, but I would drive, and I would... We would sit in your studio, and it was the first time in my life where I learned how to sit with myself. That meditation practice helped me more than anything to get through grad school because so much of what I had been doing up until really I started meditating is running from myself, running from who I really am, running from my experiences, which was part of the purpose of the eating disorder served. Yeah. I just remember sitting in... I remember the butt cushions. Is that what they're called? That's probably not an appropriate term.

Drew Assini [15:20]:

That's perfect. That's exactly what they're called.

Alyssa Scolari [15:20]:

Ass cushions?

Drew Assini [15:20]:

That was so good.

Alyssa Scolari [15:27]:

Boy, and I'm just...

Drew Assini [15:27]:

Yeah.

Alyssa Scolari [15:29]:

I remember sitting with just all of this comfort or this peace and discomfort at the same time. It's the first time that I realized that you can have bad experiences, and you can have discomfort, and you can still be at peace.

Drew Assini [15:45]:

Mm-hmm [affirmative]. Yeah.

Alyssa Scolari [15:48]:

That helped me get through grad school, and I... I don't know. I've just been such a huge fan of all the stuff that you've done since. So could you just touch a little bit on how meditation has helped you and your personal background because I know you have quite a fascinating story?

Drew Assini [16:11]:

All right. Sometimes, I think it's fascinating. Other times, I'm over it, and it's like...

Alyssa Scolari [16:18]:

You're sick of talking about it?

Drew Assini [16:19]:

Well, it's just I'm sick of what happens when I believe what I think, yeah, which is why meditation is great.

Alyssa Scolari [16:30]:

Yup.

Drew Assini [16:30]:

Yes, so... Yeah, and I guess this is cool too because it almost doubles back earlier. So former therapist, former counselor, former college professor person, but the other thing I would identify is as a person in longterm recovery. So meditation really started to show up in my life at the beginning of my own recovery process, specifically from addiction, and then later, also gambling. Yeah, smoking cigarettes and stuff too. Yeah. I mean, I always thought meditation was cool. I remember reading Siddhartha in sixth grade and thinking like, "Oh man, this is cool." But the actual practice of meditation, I didn't really start to play with until I was in early into my recovery process and I needed help figuring out how to not do the same old dumb shit over and over again, how not to just go with the impulses and the thoughts, and [inaudible 00:17:23] the thoughts. It gave me something to do that wasn't believing the thought. Yeah, and that was an immense freedom that opened up.

Then, I think I got two years in change clean or two years into the recovery process, and then I went and spent a summer at this holistic retreat center where I was part of a community really for a couple months. That's when I was introduced to more formal practices in meditation, then led to me starting to go on retreats, and attending retreats, and all that. I feel like meditation has gone from a useful tool to help me navigate the ups and downs of being me, and life, and feelings, and all of this, whatever this is that keeps happening in this lifetime.

Alyssa Scolari [18:11]:

Yup.

Drew Assini [18:12]:

Now, 10-plus years later where I've finally been able to cultivate and develop a daily practice, and having the time here on the island to myself. I'm sitting a couple times a day for a couple hours a day. Yeah. It just feels like the peace and ease that meditation makes available or moving from a meditative space, that peace and ease is just way cooler than anything I was getting from the achieving, grasping approach to life. So now, I feel like what used to help me navigate life is now revealing a totally different way of living. I don't know if I'm saying it right. Yeah. It used to be all about life, and achieving, and getting things. Meditation helped me deal with all that. Now, it feels like life is about sitting in peace and in ease, and allowing life to just happen.

Alyssa Scolari [19:06]:

Yes.

Drew Assini [19:08]:

Then, I have to do enough life work things to support my ability to sit there and just, yeah, enjoy the experience, which is cool and a long way from not being able to sit in my own skin for even a second at a time.

Alyssa Scolari [19:23]:

Yeah, so... Right. Basically, what you're saying is, and this is the same experience that I had that meditation helped you to not act on the impulses. It helped you to just sit with it, and then transformed into the space where you're not just sitting with it, but you're going places with your meditation. It's become more active as... Instead of a coping skill, it's now integrated to becoming an integral part of your life.

Drew Assini [19:54]:

It fundamentally changes the experience of life if you commit to a practice.

Alyssa Scolari [19:59]:

Yes.

Drew Assini [20:00]:

Whether it's formal meditation, or yoga, or anything mindfulness-oriented, yeah. I mean, to sit on a cushion and practice focusing on one thing for as long as you can, and then you wander somewhere, you just come back, and to do that with a certain sense of acceptance and patience then cultivates the ability in our day-to-day living to focus on one thing at a time with some patience and some acceptance, and so it's... Yeah, it's magical, but it's actually very simple, and it's like, "Oh, yeah. Duh. Of course, if I practice this, then this will show up more." So for me, that's... I like magical shit, but I need a practical. I got to see it in action. I got to know that it works, and then I'm all about it.

Alyssa Scolari [20:45]:

Yeah, and you... Shit. What was I going to say?

Drew Assini [20:53]:

It will come back. The good stuff always does.

Alyssa Scolari [20:55]:

Shit. That train of thought has left the station. Oh. No.

Drew Assini [21:04]:

No, different train.

Alyssa Scolari [21:07]:

Goddammit.

Drew Assini [21:08]:

Here's the cool thing. It will come back to you while I'm talking too. So the cool thing is essentially, the train metaphor is something I use all the time too is that the goal of meditation is to learn how to rest in the station and not get on every freaking train that runs through it.

Alyssa Scolari [21:24]:

Yeah.

Drew Assini [21:25]:

Right?

Alyssa Scolari [21:25]:

Yeah.

Drew Assini [21:25]:

So if we understand ourselves to be more of the train station, and then there's lots of different trains. There's the "worry about money" train. There's the "worry about your significant other" train. There's the "plan your future" train. There's the "oh shit don't talk about what happened when I was 12" train. They're all coming and going through the station all the time, and what we do is we cultivate the ability to rest in the station, and when we get on a train, we can recognize it sooner, and then get back instead of riding that train till whatever particular pain we find or whatever consequences.

Alyssa Scolari [22:02]:

Right, and then what happens is usually, you're right on the train, and then you want to get off of it so goddamn badly, and you don't know how. You end up self-destructing, right?

Drew Assini [22:02]:

Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Alyssa Scolari [22:12]:

You're like, "All right. Well, let me just get high, or let me go binge eat, or let me cut myself, or..." Whereas meditation helps you to stay on the platform like you said.

Drew Assini [22:27]:

Yeah. Yeah. The other thing too with meditation I think it's important to throw out there, especially for folks with trauma in their background, or that's recent, or just coming to the surface is that like bare-bones, just focus on your breath. Meditation can be actually really difficult and not yield awesome results for folks who have really loud intense trauma.

Alyssa Scolari [22:27]:

Yes.

Drew Assini [22:48]:

So if somebody wants to experiment with this stuff because they're intrigued or they can see the benefit, I would just recommend that it's a more active meditation for someone who has a more active system because it may be a trauma or something that's going on in there. So maybe it's while you're walking, or yoga practice, or a particular, "I'm walking on the beach, and my toes are in the sand," like a guided meditation.

Alyssa Scolari [23:15]:

Right, as opposed to just stillness because it's to ask somebody with a history of... and that was a lot of the stuff that came up for me when I started going to your studio to meditate is somebody with a nervous system who has endured trauma that's really never been regulated, like I never had a regulated nervous system, so it's almost damn near impossible to get somebody to just sit in stillness, in silence. I think that that's why so many... a lot of trauma survivors, we do this thing, and I say we because I was this person too where I would be like, "Meditation? Fuck that. I can't sit there. I've got shit to do. I can't sit there," and the thing... I had no patience. I mean, listen, I still don't have patience, but that's neither here nor there.

I just remember the thing that you did that helped me so much is that everything was just okay with you. You would always remind me that it doesn't matter like, "Okay. Yeah. You probably sat there for three seconds before your mind started to drift off to how many papers you have to write today, but it's okay." Everything was like laughable, so you never gave me a chance to get pissed off at myself and give up on it. Everything was like, "Huh, yeah. It's fine. Regroup and do it again." It gives you the opportunity to have patience with yourself, which I think is important and crucial, especially for folks with trauma.

Drew Assini [25:08]:

Totally. Yeah.

Alyssa Scolari [25:10]:

So you've been in recovery for how many years?

Drew Assini [25:14]:

14 in change now. Yeah, 14.

Alyssa Scolari [25:18]:

Okay, and how many years were you living in addiction?

Drew Assini [25:26]:

Which version of that story do you want, the one that impresses people, or the truth, or the...

Alyssa Scolari [25:32]:

Give me the truth. Give me the authentic version.

Drew Assini [25:37]:

I think i was 15-ish when alcohol and beer started showing up in social stuff, and so there were a couple years where I would get drunk here or smoke a joint there, whatever. So it wasn't a lot, but I guess after the first couple years, I'd say maybe 17, substances started to become a regular part of my experience. Then, about 18, I'd probably say that without knowing it, I was then into a full-blown addiction where I was no longer the boss. Then, that lasted until I was about 23, 24. I turned 24 like 90 days clean or something, so probably like four to five years in addiction, and maybe two or three more where it was like dark and I would probably have rather died than continue to waking up not wanting to get high, and then couldn't not get high, and then would just continue the cycle.

Alyssa Scolari [26:43]:

Right.

Drew Assini [26:43]:

So yeah. So I mean, I could say probably six years of substance use that was disordered. But then, the darkness of the grip of addiction is probably a four, five-year window maybe.

Alyssa Scolari [26:58]:

What was that like, or was there a specific turning point for you where you were like, "I don't want this for myself?"

Drew Assini [27:06]:

The bottom and the story that's been written, right? Not the first bottom, but like...

Alyssa Scolari [27:12]:

The rock bottom? Yeah, the rock.

Drew Assini [27:13]:

The last bottom. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Alyssa Scolari [27:15]:

Right.

Drew Assini [27:17]:

Right? Because what do they say? Like, "Every bottom has a trapdoor, and then there's another one, and another one, and another one."

Alyssa Scolari [27:22]:

Yeah.

Drew Assini [27:22]:

Then, also, this is the bottom for me that came with the drugs and alcohol specifically. I have, within the last five years, hit bottoms relative to some adult children and family dysfunction stuff. Recovery is a hell of a ride.

Alyssa Scolari [27:43]:

Oh, yeah. It's that roller coaster that you really can't get off of. You're on it, but...

Drew Assini [27:43]:

Yeah, yeah.

Alyssa Scolari [27:49]:

It's a hell of a ride, but it's also so beautiful because I think you reach different heights.

Drew Assini [27:55]:

Yeah. Oh, tremendously. Well, the cool part too is that the height that's reached is it doesn't matter how high or how low anymore, more like...

Alyssa Scolari [28:04]:

Yes. It is what it is.

Drew Assini [28:05]:

So then, like you said, you said it beautifully. There was a piece that was present with a certain level of chaos or dysfunction, and that was okay.

Alyssa Scolari [28:14]:

Yeah.

Drew Assini [28:14]:

Then, it's supposed to be a beautiful space. Yeah. So yeah. The short version is essentially, I moved away because everybody else was the problem like I knew what I was doing. Blame everybody else. Run away. I got arrested for DUI, and I had to detox on the floor of the booking holding area of the jail. There were just moments of like, "This is my fucking life." I was the kid with all the potential and everybody liked, and if he could only get his shit together and go. Then, here I was in an orange jumpsuit just drooling on the floor. Then, shortly after that, I made the phone call to my parents to try to bail me out for the gazillionth time. It was like the middle of the night, and so my mom's story... Her story always was like, "I'm going to get a call in the middle of the night that you're dead." That was her guilt trip every time I'd do something stupid. I've come to figure out later. It's like, "Maybe, mom, if guilting is one of your top parenting techniques, that's not fucking helpful," but anyway.

Alyssa Scolari [29:22]:

Yup. Yup.

Drew Assini [29:26]:

I mean, she's a mom, and she worried about her kid, and she was always worried. The nightmare scenario for her was the phone call in the middle of the night that her kid was dead. So here I was making the phone call, and I remember the phone wasn't working. So I had to go... They coordinated it, so like a guard call, and then you spoke to whoever. So I told the guard. I'm like, "Look." I explained all this to the guard, and I'm like, "Look, just immediately say that I'm alive and okay, and then tell her whatever you want. Then, I'll talk to her." The guard just blew me off. It didn't matter. So the guard answered the phone with like, "Hello, this is such and such from blah, blah, blah county. Blah, blah, blah."

So I heard my mom answer like, "Hello." This was like 4:00 in the morning or something, and then the guard launched into that whole intro. He's like, "Is this Cathy? Blah, blah, blah." I heard my mom's voice like, "Yes?" I felt it in her voice because I'm empathic or I can feel shit from just tones of voice, and I literally felt her prepping herself to hear that her son was dead. It split right through me. It hit me in my heart, in my gut. It blew me wide open, and I think that was the final blow. I didn't get clean right away after that, but that was the final blow where it was like, "Okay. I'll do something different because this sucks."

Alyssa Scolari [30:46]:

Yeah.

Drew Assini [30:48]:

About six months later, I got clean with some help and a counselor support. Yeah, so that was the... That was probably the bottom, the broken-open moment.

Alyssa Scolari [30:59]:

Yup, yup.

Drew Assini [31:01]:

Yeah.

Alyssa Scolari [31:02]:

I really appreciate you saying that you didn't get clean in that moment because I think that there's this idea that people have this rock bottom moment, and then it's like, "Well, and after that, everything was rainbows, and puppies, and ice cream, and butterflies." It's like, "No." Actually, that's where it gets really ugly is the moment when you realize you need to change is when it really gets hard.

Drew Assini [31:39]:

That moment cracked me open. I knew I wanted something to be different, but I didn't know what to do.

Alyssa Scolari [31:45]:

Yeah.

Drew Assini [31:45]:

I think that that's like... We can come to a place where it's like, "Okay. I don't want this anymore," but I had no clue how to do anything else. Otherwise, I would have done some other shit by then instead of just riding that horse all the way to Pain Town.

Alyssa Scolari [32:01]:

Yeah.

Drew Assini [32:01]:

So it took a little while to get connected with people who could offer things that I could hear and make suggestions that I was willing to take. I feel really blessed because... and you'll hear this from some folks in recovery that if it gets dark enough, you come out of hell on fire to do something different, and I was willing to do anything because I was shattered at that point. So when these weird, old men were telling me to do shit that I thought was dumb, I still was judging it. But also, I was like freshly toasted from the hells of addiction, and I'm like, "All right. Fuck it. Sure, I'll try. Let's do the weird thing. Cool." It turned out that this weird shit they suggested actually provided me with a different experience that was better.

Alyssa Scolari [32:47]:

What do you mean by weird shit?

Drew Assini [32:51]:

Well, just stuff I would've judged because in active addiction, part of what kept me there was my mindset, right, was being super critical, super judgmental.

Alyssa Scolari [33:00]:

Yes, all the judgment.

Drew Assini [33:00]:

Yeah, yeah. Then, I had some brain cells, right? So there's some intelligence here, but that had been so warped that then now, I was like, "Oh, nobody understands. Nobody knows. I know better than them. I'm smarter than them." I had that whole thing. So no matter what anybody told me, I could poke holes in it, and then tell them why they didn't know what they were talking about. I was a real pain in the ass, and so when I got into recovery, I was finally willing to be like, "Okay. You're telling me to..." like I remember... Here's a good example. I was early on, and I was hanging out with a particular guy. There was a dude I had asked to be my sponsor, and he told me... He initially said no. He's like, "No, you need to be around here a little bit. You just got here." He was an oldhead, so.

Alyssa Scolari [33:44]:

He said no?

Drew Assini [33:45]:

Yeah.

Alyssa Scolari [33:47]:

I didn't know you could say no.

Drew Assini [33:48]:

Oh, yeah. Essentially, he was like, "Look. Are you going to listen to what I have to say, and are you actually going to stick around? Otherwise, I'm not going to waste my time with you."

Alyssa Scolari [33:48]:

Yeah. I mean, that makes sense.

Drew Assini [33:59]:

I don't know that... Yeah, that old-school 12-step. Yeah. That's not like, "Oh, sure. I hope you stay clean today." You know? It wasn't like that, but that guy, I remember a diner, like this dude I was hanging out with that I felt was like... We were like in it together and we were going to stay clean forever. He pulled me aside, and he's like, "Look, ditch that guy." I'm like, "What?" He's like, "Yeah." He's like, "He's not about this." I'm like, "No, he's my partner." He's like, "Dude, do you want to trust what I have to say based on my 20-something years of being around here, or do you want to tell me what you think you know?" I was like, "All right." Literally, that dude got high two days later.

Alyssa Scolari [34:37]:

Oh my god.

Drew Assini [34:38]:

If I had been hanging out with him, I probably would have... It was like a read on a situation that I thought was dumb that I was willing to suspend my judgment for a moment and trust new perspective that opened me up to a whole new experience, and it was shit like that.

Alyssa Scolari [34:55]:

And potentially saved your life.

Drew Assini [34:57]:

Oh, totally. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. I'm not sitting here and talking with you because of anything I figured out. I figured out how to get into a lot of pain, and then that broke me open and had me malleable and suggestible, and then other people shared their wisdom, and their love, and their support. That's what saved my life. That's what has me here. So yeah.

Alyssa Scolari [35:20]:

In turn, I mean, to this day, you're still using that to help other people. So you have this website, Helping Folks Remember, which I love. I love the name of it. It's classic Drew. What does that mean? Tell me what that means because... Well, you explained it a little bit on... So Drew also has his own podcast, The Driveabout Podcast. You guys should definitely go listen to it because he's very candid, and the thoughts that he has are extremely original and fascinating, but I love this concept, and I know you talk about this on your podcast, which was helping people to remember. So what does that mean?

Drew Assini [36:10]:

For me, it's just a really cool framework that's way less heavy than a lot of the judgment, stigma, clinical diagnosis, right, because I'm coming from years of personal experience and professional experience in addiction treatment, mental health, teaching in colleges, teaching mental health, working in treatment centers. There's a lot of weight that comes with a lot of the labels. Really, any concept that has been around for a minute gets heavy because we just constantly project our own meanings and understandings on the stuff. So it just felt like, yeah, this framework was fresh. It's like, "Okay. Cool. It's just forgetting and remembering." There's not really a clinical bias to forgetting. Nobody is trying to DSM you with forgetting.

Alyssa Scolari [37:01]:

Right.

Drew Assini [37:02]:

So yeah. Coming from a world where there was heavy labels, there was definitely a wish for something that was lighter, and easier, and fresher. Yeah. I don't even know how. It was just like... I was in Oregon at the time and hanging out, and it just... It was like a flash download. It was just like, "Oh, holy shit. This makes so much sense, like we're just..." The other thing we're guilty of is just forgetting how fucking awesome we are. That's it. We're already whole and complete. We're already awesome. We're already amazing. Right? That's in place, has always been there, will potentially always be there, depending upon how we see things. So the name of the game now is not to become something else, or fix ourselves, or whatever. It's just to relearn, or remember, or unlearn, right? We unlearn the dumb shit. Then, we're able to remember back to a time in our own life when things were easier or into an understanding of ourselves that is lighter and freer. So it's beautiful too because the fundamental assumption is that we're already cool.

Alyssa Scolari [38:08]:

Yeah.

Drew Assini [38:09]:

Instead of working from a place of deficit or lack, we're actually working from a place of... I want to say abundance, but it's the other end. So the remembering and forgetting thing, it's just a framework. What are we guilty of, or what's the actual problem? Well, it's just that you've forgotten that you're awesome. So you don't act like you're awesome, and most of us don't act like we're awesome. We act like we're missing something that we need to get in order to be awesome. So if we can unlearn all that forgetting stuff, then we're able to remember ourselves in a clearer, lighter, simpler way, and then we just continue to enjoy life and do whatever the fuck we want.

Then, the words break down too, which I love because I'm a little bit of a word nerd. I like breaking down words and looking at them differently. I feel like we should just generally be more conscious of the language we use, but forgetting breaks down into "for" and "getting." So if someone is forgetting, they're also for getting things, right, or pro acquiring stuff, and a lot of what we do with our life is spend it in pursuit of acquiring a thing, or a person, or a title, or an achievement because then that will make us better, or lovable, or okay, or complete. Right?

So we're always operating from a place of deficit, trying to chase something. That's the carrot you can never grab. So it's cool. It's like really, the forgetfulness is all about this seeking outside of ourselves, and then remembering is about remembering that we're already whole. Nothing is going to complete us because we're already complete. That's why nothing ever scratches the itch the way we want it to.

Then, remember broken down is just becoming a member again or becoming a part of something bigger, and I feel like that's huge because... I would say that more so than like... or before addiction and mental health stuff, whether it's depression, or PTSD, or whatever might show up. Before that shows up, we actually distinguish ourselves as something separate, and I feel like that's actually one of the fundamental fallacies of how we understand experience. We're really interconnected. Everything is connected. We're all impacting each other all the time. But when we believe we're alone or we're separate, then we become susceptible to shit like anxiety and depression.

Alyssa Scolari [40:27]:

Yes. Yeah.

Drew Assini [40:28]:

It's like the little... What is it? The little antilope that can then get eaten by the lion when you're separate or you believe you're separate from the pact.

Alyssa Scolari [40:37]:

I love the simplicity of that because I think there's so much jargon around trauma and PTSD. I so agree that what makes us susceptible is that we forget. We forget that we didn't do anything wrong. We forget that we're amazing. When we forget that, then we are susceptible to PTSD and a whole host of issues. I love the simplicity.

Drew Assini [41:08]:

It felt like a really nice, light, practical, accessible kind of framework to then understand the path of remembering, or healing, or whatever.

Alyssa Scolari [41:17]:

Yeah.

Drew Assini [41:18]:

Not to make light of any of the shit that goes on in our experience. It's just like if we understand that like, "Oh, I need to fix my trauma," or, "I need to heal my broken spot," and it's like, "Okay. Yes, but also, let's take a step back first and recognize that you already are awesome and that now, we're just trying to work our way back into remembering that," which could be... Well, you can't really go backwards, right? That's the cool part about trauma is that it actually is an upgrade. We just got to learn how to work with it.

Alyssa Scolari [41:45]:

Exactly, exactly. So I know you're doing your own personal work. What are you doing in terms of... Are you seeing people right now? So you're not doing any sort of counseling, or are you?

Drew Assini [42:04]:

So I've officially left behind the psychotherapist, psychotherapy, Western psychology, counseling, clinical... That paradigm, I'm leaving behind. Obviously, I can't leave all of its impact in my life, right?

Alyssa Scolari [42:24]:

Right.

Drew Assini [42:26]:

So I'm still talking with people. I'm still working with folks individually and in group settings, but it's much more with this frame of reference. When I talk to people, I'm like, "Look, I'm no longer a formal therapist guy. This is not therapy. If you have some acute shit that is up, you should be talking to a therapist." Right?

Alyssa Scolari [42:46]:

Yeah.

Drew Assini [42:48]:

But then, also, I feel like to a certain degree, the therapeutic paradigm is just about symptom relief, and then really kicks you in the ass out the door once you no longer are in a certain crisis mentality. So what I'm trying to do is then be that next thing where it's like, "All right. Cool. Shit used to be on fire. Now, it's not on fire, but you like this new approach to life. How do you ground in it? How do you really move forward in it?" It's like, "Okay. I can take you there. Now, we can really start to ground it to some practical, maybe spiritual living or practical living. Just conscious living."

Alyssa Scolari [43:28]:

Okay. So what you're saying is people who are out of that crisis stage, and they want to access that deeper level of healing?

Drew Assini [43:36]:

Mm-hmm [affirmative].

Alyssa Scolari [43:37]:

Okay.

Drew Assini [43:39]:

Yeah.

Alyssa Scolari [43:40]:

If people want to contact you, they just go to your website, right?

Drew Assini [43:45]:

Yup, yup. Www.helpingfolksremember.org. Yeah. You can get in touch with me there, and I'm on the Facebooks, and the Instagrams, and the inner webs, and all that stuff. I'm not good. I'm a little too old to be messing with that shit, but I know it's... I'm just trying to make myself be available, so people know I'm a thing. I'm out there. Sometimes I've gone...

Alyssa Scolari [44:10]:

You're an important thing. People need to know you're out there because you have a very unconventional way of dealing with trauma, and I tend to be a believer that the traditional talk therapy isn't everything. It's one thing, and it's one step, but there's much more that happens in the healing process.

Drew Assini [44:39]:

We're a multifaceted being, so it would be silly to try to heal us with one facet.

Alyssa Scolari [44:45]:

Yeah, yeah.

Drew Assini [44:47]:

Like when I was working with people at the center, they would come, and I'm like, "All right. We'll talk. But also, you're going to come to yoga, and you're going to come to meditation, and you're going to go get massages, and you're going to do float tank, and you're going to talk with my fucking nutrition friend."

Alyssa Scolari [45:01]:

Yup.

Drew Assini [45:02]:

If you're about healing, let's not bullshit. Let's do it.

Alyssa Scolari [45:02]:

Right.

Drew Assini [45:06]:

If we put the energy into the healing process, it changes everything.

Alyssa Scolari [45:11]:

Yup. You've got to be all-in.

Drew Assini [45:14]:

Yeah. Yeah, like my first... Really, my first exposure to sustained therapy, right, because I had a bunch of therapists that wanted to tell me shit before I was ready to hear it when I was younger. But then, once my ass is on fire and I was willing to listen, my first therapist experience, he was a somatic psychotherapist. So we were listening to my body as much as I was battling about what I thought I knew. That was really profound. For me, there was a lot of opportunity, a lot of metaphoric healing we did, a lot of symbols. Yeah, but I don't know that just talking would've sufficed for me. Again, super helpful to be able to articulate something with someone present that's holding space, and it's supportive, and loving, and caring. Yeah.

Alyssa Scolari [46:00]:

Also, can call you out on your own shit and tell you that you don't know as much as you think you do. I mean, that's something that I know I need because I don't like to be told what to do.

Drew Assini [46:09]:

I feel like that's more accessible now because when I was in the psychotherapeutic framework, I felt like I couldn't do that as much, like it just wasn't... I don't know. I just felt like I... In that position, in that role, I was more inclined to just actively listen. Whereas now, I'm me. So I can just be like, "Yeah. Dude, what are you doing?"

Alyssa Scolari [46:30]:

Yup.

Drew Assini [46:33]:

Yeah.

Alyssa Scolari [46:34]:

Yeah. You have done the brave work of accessing alternative methods to healing that I think can really help a lot of people and I think that people aren't really aware of. I think people hear things like meditation, and they're just like... like what I said earlier. It's just like, "Oh, I don't have time to sit there," but it's not like that. It's just not like that. I think you attest to a lot of it, and you've done some really cool shit, so.

Drew Assini [47:10]:

Awesome.

Alyssa Scolari [47:10]:

Thank you.

Drew Assini [47:11]:

Thanks.

Alyssa Scolari [47:13]:

Thanks for listening. I hope you enjoyed this episode. For more information about today's episode and to sign up for the Light After Trauma newsletter, head over to my website at alyssascolari.com. I'm also on Twitter, and I'd love to chat with you guys. Be sure to follow me. My Twitter handle is AlyssaScolari. Thanks again for listening and take good care.

In this week's episode, Alyssa sits down with Certified Eating Disorder Specialist, Dr. Maria Paredes, for a poignant conversation about the role of social (in)justice in the development of eating disorders.

Learn more about the incredible work Dr. Maria Paredes is doing:

Instagram: @with_this_body

threebirdscounseling.com 

 

Check out the Light After Trauma website for transcripts, other episodes, Alyssa's guest appearances, and more at: www.lightaftertrauma.com

Want to get more great content and interact with the show? Check us out on Instagram: @lightaftertrauma

We need your help! We want to continue to make great content that can help countless trauma warriors on their journey to recovery. So, please help us in supporting the podcast by becoming a recurring patron of the show via Patreon. Every bit helps!

 

Transcript:

Alyssa Scolari [00:23]:

Hey, everybody. What's up? Welcome to Light After Trauma, episode number, I have no idea at this point. So I know that for the last couple episodes, or really since the start of the podcast, I have been giving all of the episodes a number in the show, and I just wanted to let you all know, I am no longer going to be doing that. I am not a numbers girl. I am not the girl you want to come to, to ask for numbers. And at this point, I've lost count. So I'm going to nix the numbers. If you have a question about the numbers, you'll be able to see it in the show notes and on Apple podcasts or Spotify or wherever you listen but during the episode itself, I'm over giving it numbers because I have no clue. It could be 7, it could be 12, but I am so pumped for today's episode.

I have somebody coming on, who I greatly admire. Dr. Maria Parades is a licensed clinical mental health counselor, clinical supervisor, certified eating disorder specialist, and approved IAEDP supervisor and owner of Three Birds Counseling & Clinical Supervision in Greensboro, North Carolina, a practice that provides services from trauma-informed, fat positive, sex positive, LGBTQIA affirming, faith affirming, and social justice affirming lens. She helps individuals of all gender identities make peace with food and their bodies and live fuller lives, free from negative thinking, fear of food and body hate. She believes all bodies have worth, and that all individuals deserve to enjoy food, move in ways that feel joyful, treat their bodies with kindness and gentleness, and experience authentic connection with themselves and others. Maria recognizes that this healing must occur within the individual therapeutic relationship, as well as within the larger cultural environment and thus embraces the role of advocacy and activism.

She also works with individuals experiencing anxiety, trauma, infertility, pregnancy loss, and PCOS. Maria teaches courses in UNCG's counseling department and provides clinical supervision and training to new professionals working towards their licensure, as therapists or dieticians. Maria is mom to three young girls and hopes that they will grow up to experience the wonder and power of all their bodies have to offer, without believing that they must shrink themselves.

So, hi, Maria, how are you?

Maria Paredes [03:14]:

I'm good. Thanks for having me, Alyssa.

Alyssa Scolari [03:17]:

Thank you so much for being here. I am really excited. Is it raining down where you guys are like, have you got the hurricane?

Maria Paredes [03:26]:

It's like overcast, a little sprinkly, but not really raining yet. Yeah.

Alyssa Scolari [03:32]:

It is pouring here so if you all hear rain in the background, hopefully it's soothing for you. Not sure if we'll be able to edit that out, but it is pouring here. I guess these are the remnants of, is it Hurricane Laura? Is that what hurricane we're at?

Maria Paredes [03:51]:

Yeah.

Alyssa Scolari [03:52]:

Yeah. So let's get right into it. Can you talk a little bit more about the work that you do? I am a huge fan.

Maria Paredes [04:02]:

Oh, you're so sweet. Thank you. So I'm a therapist down in Greensboro, North Carolina, and I own a private practice called Three Birds Counseling & Clinical Supervision, and we provide specialized outpatient treatment for eating disorders, body image, anxiety, depression, infertility, pregnancy loss, and trauma, and we do a bunch around hardship evaluations, immigration hardship evaluations, and I've got, I think it's now six or seven of us now, the practice and I really enjoy it. And then on the side I also teach at a local university. I teach counseling classes to grad students and yeah, that's what I do.

Alyssa Scolari [04:49]:

Holy smokes. That's a big practice and you've got a lot on your plate.

Maria Paredes [04:54]:

Oh, well, thank you. I mean, the people that I cannot say enough about the folks who work with me and they're awesome, and so I provide some of them supervision, but they're all pretty competent on their own. So it's neat. It doesn't all fall on me, which is lovely. I love the team that we have.

Alyssa Scolari [05:16]:

Yeah, that's great because I mean, you have all those people under you. You're the founder of Three Birds Counseling. So you are the lead therapist, the owner.

Maria Paredes [05:27]:

I am, but you know when I created it, it's funny 'cause I had been toying, I've kind of hopped around in my career a little bit and some of that's been around like motherhood and just life and interests. And I had toyed with going into private practice for years and years and it was like studying it and trying to figure out like what's the right way to do it and what's the best way to do it, all in quotes. And I had a lot of fear about being able to do it, will I be able to have a caseload, like I think a lot of imposter syndrome kind fears. And I also knew that in doing it, I wanted to try and do something a little bit different. I wanted to try and embody some feminist approaches to creating it and to having it be something where the people working at the practice, that we were doing something a little bit different and in trying to have, I didn't want them to just be people who were working for me and that they were barely scraping by.

I wanted to really help mentor them and help them grow into their own, grow their own voice, grow what they're doing, have them be able to make enough that, I'm sure, you know in mental health, it can be sometimes hard to make enough to get by [inaudible 00:06:38] so I'm really proud of what we were building together. And I emphasize that like we're building together, 'cause I feel like they're all part of the team and that we're working together and in some really neat ways.

Alyssa Scolari [06:50]:

Right, you brought people along that work with you, not necessarily for you. I mean, technically they work for you, but.

Maria Paredes [06:57]:

They work for me, but they're part of decisions. They're part of shaping it and I want them to be, I want them to give feedback. I want them to help shape what we're doing, and there are certain things, structurally, that do end up coming to me right, in terms of decisions, but I really am intentional about trying to have them be part of what we're doing and how we're offering it to the community.

Alyssa Scolari [07:21]:

That's awesome. And is everybody in your practice, a certified eating disorder specialist because you are, correct?

Maria Paredes [07:30]:

I am. No, not everyone is. Everyone specializes in eating disorders and I have full confidence in, we have a new intern and so she's new and training and learning, but everyone else, I have full confidence in them and the work that they do and giving them any client. They all do a ton with eating disorder. So even though they may not have the certification, they're very competent. Lindsey Umstead, who's EverBloomingBody on Instagram, she has worked at two other residential eating disorder facilities and has also worked in substance abuse. She's done a ton. Melissa Carmona has been doing a ton with eating disorders for a long time. She also does a lot in making it more accessible for Latinx populations. Meredith Nisbet works at another eating disorder treatment facility full-time and then sort of moonlights for us on the side and she will be getting her certified eating disorder specialist credential. So, and there's others, I mean, no, we're not all certified, but you know.

Alyssa Scolari [08:31]:

But you all specialize in eating disorders.

Maria Paredes [08:34]:

[inaudible 00:08:34] disorders, and everyone is also trauma informed. Everyone is trained in a specific trauma protocol, at least one. So EMDR, brainspotting, TF-CBT, DBT, [inaudible 00:08:45].

Alyssa Scolari [08:44]:

Where does the passion for eating disorders come from? So that's something that I specialize in as well. I'm really, really passionate about it. And guys, I'm going to link her Instagram. It's with_this_body, right, on Instagram? If you don't follow her already, I tell all my patients to follow you, by the way, because I work with adolescents and with adolescents, so much of their world is social media. So [inaudible 00:09:17] come to me with eating disordered behaviors, one of the first things I say is, "Well, who are you following on social media?" And you are at the top of my list of people to follow because the things, the content that you create is so helpful, and it's something everybody needs to see. So I will definitely link her Instagram handle in the show notes and on the Facebook page, but go follow her, with_this_body. And you just have a huge, huge passion for eating disorders. It's very clear. So can you talk about where that comes from?

Maria Paredes [09:57]:

Sure. Yeah. And it's, and it's with underscore this underscore body, 'cause I think there is someone else who has with this body, without the underscores.

Alyssa Scolari [10:05]:

Oh. Thank you.

Maria Paredes [10:07]:

I mean, it's so funny these like there's multiple pages out there handles sometimes. So I, I'm pretty open about being in recovery myself, and I talk about that with intention and purpose in de-stigmatizing, I believe very strongly that it's important to de-stigmatize mental health and recovery and treatment. And so I'm open about being in recovery myself and having struggled with eating disorder and complex trauma. And so certainly that's a big part of what has drawn me to it. I also, social justice has always been a really important part of, it was important part of my upbringing and how my parents raised me, and it's also just an important part of the work I do, and my beliefs and values and eating disorder treatment, I think is very much rooted in social justice work, and should be.

Alyssa Scolari [10:59]:

Yes. Can you say a little bit more about that? Like what you mean by social justice and how the two are connected? Because I think, I think that's huge. It's so important.

Maria Paredes [11:08]:

Yeah. So historically, what most people would think of, when we think eating disorders, would be the sort of prototype classic image that we would see in movies and TV shows of thin, white, rich, cisgender, straight female. And it's not that those folks don't struggle with eating disorders too. They do. But what we know increasingly is that the folks who are at most risk for disordered eating and for body image disconnection are anyone who falls into a category of any sort of marginalized identity and that multi marginalized folks, so folks who hold multiple marginalizations are probably at even higher risk for developing eating disorders.

And so folks who are queer, folks who are color, folks who are transgender, non-binary, folks who are undocumented, immigrants, folks who are disabled, anyone who society, is treated as less than, or who has been made to feel or believe that they are not good enough or anyone who's been put in a position where they have had to, resiliently, learn to disconnect from their full self and hide parts of themselves, is at a greater risk of developing eating disorder.

So I see eating disorders as emerging, as adaptive, resilient coping strategies for some sort of experience of trauma, some sort of body disconnection. And that can be like an event trauma, right? Like someone who's had a sexual assault or had an experience that overwhelmed the coping system, but can also be complex traama so across your childhood, experiencing something ongoing, prolonged, it could be something like not having your needs met, right? Experiencing food insecurity, poverty. It could be experiencing being in a home where maybe the parents weren't abusive, but maybe they weren't able to provide that kid with the affirmation and love that they needed.

And what happens when a person doesn't feel like they can show up as their full self in the world, again, oftentimes for important resiliency reasons, right? Person of color who maybe, because it may not always be safe to show their full self. Maybe they have to suppress parts of themselves or [inaudible 00:13:31] person who's living in an area where they're not affirmed or they don't have rights, there's legislation that prevents them from being able to access full rights. Oftentimes there is a need or desire to suppress parts of themselves to be able to survive. And again, you hear me saying it very intentionally as it's often a resiliency coping strategy. I don't want to put theologize what people have learned to do.

Alyssa Scolari [13:58]:

No, it's a way to cope. I mean, eating disorders, I always say like my eating disorder is actually what kept me alive for so long. It really is. It's a lifesaver.

Maria Paredes [14:10]:

Yeah.

Alyssa Scolari [14:10]:

But it also kills you at the same time.

Maria Paredes [14:13]:

Right. And so this is where the work gets really nuanced. How do we help people be able to more safely, more integratively, live in their body and experience their body, in ways where they are able to express and own and exist in their body, in their experience, as they are, and as they choose to be. If they need or want to suppress parts of themselves for whatever reason, and I say that because I believe in body autonomy, how do we support that while also understanding that sometimes it's not safe for them to completely be at home in their body. Sometimes, depending on the situation, folks need to continue certain suppression of parts of themselves to be able to show up otherwise in the world.

And so that, to me, this work is more than just what I'm doing individually with a client in the therapy room, but it gets at why it's important for me to be an advocate and an activist on the bigger level. How do we help fight racism? How do we help fight transphobia? How do we help break down systems of oppression, so that folks don't have to suppress themselves in society?

Alyssa Scolari [15:28]:

Absolutely. I think that the racism, that the transphobia and all of that actually stops people from getting the help that they need, because when you do think of eating disorders, you do think of somebody who is white, female, anorexic, so thin, but what about the people who don't fall into that category? Personally, I have been through a few different eating disorder treatment centers and the one thing that I have noticed is that I was the only person there who was struggling with binge eating disorder, and I wonder, everybody else there was white, struggling with anorexia, underweight, and obviously I am very privileged, but part of me wonders, I know that eating disorders are rooted in social justice, as we talked about, why are [inaudible 00:16:31]

Maria Paredes [16:31]:

Should we should say, yeah. Rooted in social injustice. Yeah, yeah.

Alyssa Scolari [16:34]:

Yeah. Social injustice. Exactly. You know, but I look around and I wonder, well, where are the folks who identify as LGBTQAI and where are the folks that are in racial minorities, because these are the folks who are struggling probably the most with eating disorders, and yet I don't see a lot of them speaking about it.

Maria Paredes [16:59]:

Well, and I think that's changing and a couple of things that I just want to throw in, like I heard you say, folks who are anorexic, smaller body, a lot of people don't know that you can have anorexia and be higher weight, and so what we typically think of anorexia, what we've historically been taught about it was that it was just folks who are low weight and you can have anorexia and be higher weight. A lot of people don't understand, don't realize that. Even the fact that we name anorexia and higher weight bodies as atypical is a misnomer, because it's actually more typical for people with anorexia to be higher weight. We have more people who are higher weight that are anorexic than people who are lower weight and anorexic.

Alyssa Scolari [17:40]:

Yep.

Maria Paredes [17:41]:

And same with BD and same with all the eating disorders. You can not tell what a person, what disorder they [inaudible 00:17:48], just looking at them. So in terms of hearing more about eating disorders from diverse lenses, there are so many more voices out there now, and I think that's incredible. And there's a lot more movement happening to try and increase care. Just this past week, my colleague, Anna Lutz and I do supervision groups for dieticians and therapists, and one of the things that we are noticing, and it's a small change just in this small sphere, is that the case presentations that our providers are bringing to the table for their case presentations, are increasingly more diverse and representing cases that are representing people with marginalization. Whereas in the past, it would continue to be the same classic case of a thin, white, rich girl in her twenties.

Alyssa Scolari [18:41]:

Yep.

Maria Paredes [18:42]:

And I think that's a great thing. I don't think that it's fair for us and especially us straight [inaudible 00:18:51], white women to say like, "Where have they," this like sort of abstract they, been like, I think it's more that, how have voices not been heard? It's not that voices weren't talking about it. I think it's that a lot of us weren't [inaudible 00:19:08].

Alyssa Scolari [19:07]:

Right. It's that they don't feel like they have, they don't feel like that help is available to them.

Maria Paredes [19:14]:

I think there's a lot of folks that don't feel help is available to them, and I think that for those of us who are white, I think we need to do a better job of listening, 'cause I think there have been many folks who have come asking for help, asking for treatment, showing up with symptoms, but that us providers, especially maybe us white providers, haven't maybe been as attuned to understand how symptomology might look different.

Alyssa Scolari [19:41]:

Yes.

Maria Paredes [19:42]:

For sure, I think there's a lot of folks who may not feel safe and able t-, or able financially or otherwise to be able to go and receive care. But I also think there's been a lot of folks who have gone in and we've missed it. We haven't known maybe as much what to look for. Maybe we're looking just for what we've always thought to look for. And I think part of what's changing is that people are understanding that our assessment process, picking up on, oh, hey, this person who's coming in for treatment in this college counseling center or wherever, oh, maybe it's not that we need to send them to a dietician and encourage weight loss. Maybe we need to assess for what else might be going on, that maybe there's disordered eating and body image going on. Maybe the way that someone describes her eating disorder is different than how we've always heard from other people.

Alyssa Scolari [20:30]:

And that's why conversations like this are so important because as two white women, when we have a client in front of us, as non-biased, as we try to be, it's insidious, it's very sinister and it's very subtle and it's very hard to not be biased, and I think it's important to bring awareness to it. To clinicians, to non-clinicians, to everybody that we do need to change the way that we are assessing, because eating disorders don't always look like you're thin, white, rich girl in her twenties, like you said.

Maria Paredes [21:09]:

There's a local university here. It's a HBCU, historically black college university, and I've gone there to present on eating disorders at least a couple of times, and I was supposed to go pre-pandemic and now everything has been moved, but the messaging I would get at different points was, "Oh, well, we don't have eating disorders here," and not, I think it's a mix of things. One, I think there's difficulty for folks in just coming forward to talk about any kind of issue sometimes, in some black communities, again, I don't want to talk in generalizations about all black communities, but sometimes there's more stigma. There's lack of access. My partner worked there for several years in their counseling center and the kind of outreach that they needed to do, was very different than the outreach that we would do at PWI, predominantly white institutions.

And a lot of that was a function of one, there being fear of going to talk to someone who was seen as a person with power or authority. There was stigma about mental health. You don't go talk to a counselor, or you maybe go talk to your pastor. You go talk to your family, but don't like open up to some stranger. So that was just about mental health in general, but then when you drill down to eating disorders, it was even more seen as something that was, that's a white person problem. That's not something that we deal with. And what's been interesting is, just in recent years, how it's changing and how they're having more students come forward and saying, "Hey, this is what I'm struggling with." And they're, I think understanding more, I'm saying they, like the counseling center, they're understanding more that, how they need to assess for that and what it might look like differently.

Alyssa Scolari [22:51]:

That's amazing. It's amazing that people are open to that change, that they're recognizing it. I love that change is happening. Change is, it's on the horizon. And I love working with, I do work with adults, but I also, I primarily work with adolescents and I just feel like this is the generation that's going to change the future. They're going to change the whole world because they understand so much more about privilege than so many other people, and they are creating some serious change and I love it.

Maria Paredes [23:28]:

Yeah. Yeah. Everything's changing, our language, our way of understanding things, and it's something that I had to really continue to check myself on, to remember, what do I not know? [inaudible 00:23:42].

Alyssa Scolari [23:43]:

Yes.

Maria Paredes [23:44]:

What do I not know that I don't know, like the [crosstalk 00:23:47] levels of knowing and how to stay humble enough to know that there's something that I'm probably missing, that there's harm that I'm probably doing, even unintentionally.

Alyssa Scolari [24:00]:

Without knowing it. And that is, I think one of the best gifts that you can give, not only yourself, but the world is to sort of humble yourself because as people of privilege, we're going to mess up and you have to be open to constantly checking yourself and asking yourself, "Well, is this okay that I'm saying this? Or is it okay to have this thought? Or what is this rooted in?" And I think it's so important just to try to drop your defenses and just listen and be open to hearing what racial minorities, sexual minorities have to say.

Maria Paredes [24:40]:

Yeah, totally.

Alyssa Scolari [24:43]:

And as we listen to them, they need to lean less on their eating disorders as a coping skill, because there's less of them that they need to hide from the world.

Maria Paredes [24:53]:

As young people come forward and say, they have eating disorders. Is that what you're saying?

Alyssa Scolari [24:59]:

Yeah. As we continue to listen to people who have been victims of social injustice, and as we continue to help them and support them, the less, I believe that they will need to lean on their eating disorders to cope. Does that make sense?

Maria Paredes [25:16]:

I think so. And something that I've been trying to, I try to continue to be aware of is to really sort of one down myself of my role is not to come in as the white savior or to even assume that I know what they need, like, so maybe recovery in the way that I've experienced myself or the way that I offer it to some of my clients may not be what others might need. And so how, like, I don't know if I'm making sense, but just really trying to kind of even deconstruct the idea that the goal is to get any group of people to heal in the same way, to be in the same way. Maybe some of the things that we pathologize as maladaptive, maybe they're not maladaptive in other cultures or other communities, and so.

Alyssa Scolari [26:10]:

Right.

Maria Paredes [26:12]:

That sort of one downing, this is an old reference, but kind of like the Colombo, really kind of, assuming that there's stuff I don't know here and how do I, instead of coming in and going, "Okay, let me support you and let me fix it and let me have the answer. How do I go, how can I do less harm? How can I provide more access, support access? How can I even know that maybe I'm not the person or the provider that's the right fit." So how do I [crosstalk 00:26:42]

Alyssa Scolari [26:42]:

It's true.

Maria Paredes [26:43]:

[inaudible 00:26:43] other providers be able to be able to provide care who may better fit it to do it than myself.

Alyssa Scolari [26:51]:

Right. Exactly. And now, you are a mom as well, right? Another role that you play.

Maria Paredes [26:59]:

Yes. Yes. I have three little ones and it is hard times during the pandemic.

Alyssa Scolari [27:04]:

I bet. So how old are they?

Maria Paredes [27:07]:

So I have two kids in grade school and I have a kid in preschool.

Alyssa Scolari [27:11]:

You have little ones.

Maria Paredes [27:13]:

Yes. And they're awesome, and it's a lot of work right now, especially because our schools are all virtual right now, and so we're [inaudible 00:27:22] yeah, being home.

Alyssa Scolari [27:25]:

Oh my gosh. Now, is there a certain way that you raise your kids differently when it comes to eating and food, different than the way that you were raised to help them develop a normal and healthy relationship with food?

Maria Paredes [27:45]:

Yeah. So I think it's really important to teach kids to be fat positive. We try to talk about bodies in, at minimum neutral ways, but also positive ways. Like not just talking about fat bodies neutrally, but talking about fat bodies positively. And to deconstruct that fat is not a bad thing or something to be afraid of. And in the same way, I really want to teach my kids that they don't have to be afraid of food. That we don't have to elevate certain foods over others and that it's important to enjoy food, and so, we generally follow the Division of Responsibility by Ellyn Satter, just like we decide the what, where, and when, they decide whether they're going to eat at all and how much to eat. I say generally, because as with anything parenting, sometimes you're just surviving and doing what's working in that moment and [crosstalk 00:28:42] that I try to follow at times.

But even that to me is important too. I don't want to be the perfect parent. I don't want to teach my kids that I'm perfect or that we're always following things in exactly the same way. I think some structure's important, but I want them to know that it's okay to make mistakes. It's okay to be human. Mommy makes mistakes, Papi, their dad, makes mistakes. And so we try to model neutrality around food and body and some of the concretes of those, you see me being pretty free and open about my body in front of them. It's been interesting as they're getting older, you know how that shifts. My oldest is like, "Mom, put some clothes on." I'm in my bedroom. [inaudible 00:29:28]

Alyssa Scolari [29:31]:

Right, exactly. It's about teaching them also that bodies are not inherently sexual.

Maria Paredes [29:36]:

Right. Right. Yes, and they're growing up and becoming, they are sexual beings, and so it's been interesting sort of exploring like, ooh, like I'm trying to do this like, ooh, body neutrality thing and they're figuring out their own stuff. And so sometimes they're like, that's so gross. Why don't you shave your armpits? Or like, why don't, you know? I think having some lightness around it and some humor and just conversations are really important. And I love that my kids already know that it's unfair to treat bodies differently, that when they see something that is fat phobic, that they're able to recognize it and say, "Mom, that's not fair. That's not cool." And I think that's really neat. Like, I'll get [inaudible 00:30:25] looks like, well, "What age should we start talking about this?" Or, we're going to scare them. Like, no, just talk directly about it, have conversations and mess up, expose and just dialogue about it. That's what's going to help the most.

Alyssa Scolari [30:39]:

Yeah. And it's what helps keep shame out of your house because shame is the ultimate silencer, and there's so much shame around eating and bodies, and so that's amazing. It's amazing that you're doing that. It's tough work.

Maria Paredes [30:56]:

It is. It's not always, I make lots of mistakes and it's neat too like, even my kids, my oldest is way better at things like even remembering pronouns or even like initiating conversations around not assuming pronouns. And I love that. I love that kids can, we think, "Oh, this is so hard and how are we going to all change?" And it's like, "Oh my gosh, kids, like these little kids can get it. I think we can, as adults."

Alyssa Scolari [31:23]:

They're doing it, [crosstalk 00:31:25] they're going to change the whole world.

Maria Paredes [31:27]:

[inaudible 00:31:27] Yeah.

Alyssa Scolari [31:28]:

Yep. I love that. I love that. Now, if somebody wanted to find you, find your practice, would they just go right to your website, which is threebirdscounseling.com?

Maria Paredes [31:41]:

Website's threebirdscounseling.com. You can spell out the word three or just, type in the letter, the number three, and then yeah, like the Instagram it's with_this_body, with underscore, the underscore, body. So, yeah.

Alyssa Scolari [31:55]:

Perfect, and I am going to, like I said, guys, I will link her website and her Instagram in the show notes and on the Facebook page so you will have access to that. Thank you so much.

Maria Paredes [31:55]:

Thank you.

Alyssa Scolari [32:11]:

I love talking about this stuff. It's tough. It's so tough to talk about, but it's so important. So thank you so, so much.

Maria Paredes [32:21]:

Thanks for having me.

Alyssa Scolari [32:24]:

I hope you enjoyed today's episode. For more information on today's discussion and to sign up for the Light After Trauma newsletter, head over to my website at alyssascolari.com. Also be sure to check out my Instagram for additional tips and resources at Alyssa underscore Scolari underscore LPC. Thanks again for listening and take good care.

[singing]

Episode 7 is a tough discussion about the prevalence of domestic violence and why it isn't always that easy for victims to "just leave". FYO founder and executive director, Nick Luciano, talks about the challenges victims of domestic violence face as well as the difficulties he has encountered in getting people to volunteer with the foundation due to the inherent dangers of the job. 

Check out the Forever Your Overwatch website at: https://fyofoundation.org/ 

 

Check out the Light After Trauma website for transcripts, other episodes, Alyssa's guest appearances, and more at: www.lightaftertrauma.com

Want to get more great content and interact with the show? Check us out on Instagram: @lightaftertrauma

We need your help! We want to continue to make great content that can help countless trauma warriors on their journey to recovery. So, please help us in supporting the podcast by becoming a recurring patron of the show via Patreon. Every bit helps!

 

Transcript:

Alyssa Scolari [00:24]:

Hello everybody. Hope you all are off to a great week so far. Welcome to the Light After Trauma podcast. This is episode seven. I am your host, Alyssa Scolari, and today we have with us the executive director and founder of an organization that aims to help victims of domestic violence and human trafficking. His name is Nick Luciano.

Nick founded the Forever Your Overwatch Foundation when he recognized the need to train staff and clients at domestic violence shelters in areas such as personal security, active shooter situations and threat assessments.

Nick works as a master instructor at Fort Dix, New Jersey training pre-deploying troops in active shooter situations, combatives, tactics, warrior mindset, convoys and urban warfare.

Prior to that, Nick worked installing security systems and alarms for residential and commercial buildings. Nick also worked for Blackwater USA and DynCorp protecting dignitaries overseas in hostile areas, and served five years in the US Marine Corps.

Some of his training and education include Bachelor's degree in communications, active shooter response training conducted by the Department of Homeland Security and CPR and AED qualified. Hi Nick, how are you?

Nick Luciano [01:58]:

Hi Alyssa. Thanks for having me.

Alyssa Scolari [02:00]:

Thank you so much for being here. I am really looking forward to learning a lot about the awesome work that you do. Could you just elaborate a little bit more about what Forever Your Overwatch is, how the organization came about and what specifically it is that you all do?

Nick Luciano [02:21]:

You have somebody, let's say you have young, single mom and small children just got a restraining order against a violent abuser. Either the abuser was removed from the house or they fled somewhere else, sometimes to a hotel, to a shelter, a friend's house or another place to live.

The abuser's released from jail, typically, especially in this state with the Bail Reform Act. They're living in fear, so they transition out of the shelter or wherever. They're scared he's going to break in. Lots of times there's threats. History of abuse, pattern of abuse, weapons sometimes are involved, and they're scared. They don't have the means to get security equipment. They don't have the means to move and change everything about themselves, so they have to stay at their house. They're propping up chairs against the door and tying belts around doorknobs, things like that to stay safe, sleeping at night with a baseball bat on the couch, and most of them saying he wants the kids. Well, if he's going to come in, I want to confront him first before the children.

What we do is we connect with those families through Domestic Violence agencies, Victim Witness advocates, other nonprofits. They usually refer us. We also have the means for the public themselves to just reach out to us as well and ask for help.

We go to the house, and we put in security measures: door security bars, cameras. You have to help with the restraining order violations. If they come back, give the cops a little bit teeth: locks, deadbolts, motion sensors, intrusion alarm, door alarms, window alarms, panic alarms. When you press it, it alerts your contacts your location and that you're in danger.

We have a pepper spray that does that too. You shoot the pepper spray, and it notifies your emergency contacts that you're in danger.

We do some basic self-protection work with them. Safety planning is big. We empower them to do their own safety planning. We give them tips, we walk through the house with them. We even incorporate them with the actual set up of some of the security measures. Sometimes they don't want to do it and that's fine. We don't force anybody to do anything but the goal, it's more of a mental goal just to get them thinking that they're in charge of their own security, take that control back, empower them.

So, we turn their house into as safe as we can possibly get it by doing that. If the situation calls for it, we'll put them up in emergency hotels, especially if the abuser has alluded police capture and it's a real dangerous, violent situation, we'll put them in hotels.

We also have a program, it's fairly new. We can monitor the cameras that we put in for them if they choose. So, we'll actually have a group of volunteers on standby taking shifts just watching the camera for them. If something happens, the abuser comes back, they've got a picture of him, a name, what happened and they're on a [inaudible 00:05:32] with the client. So the abuser comes, they quickly call the client, he's here, they call the police for them and they also speak through the camera, "Hey, stop. Police are on their way." Hopefully, it's enough to give them pause, get them to stop.

We also have another program where it's called Carol's Crusade Kit. If you're still in an abusive situation and it's difficult to contact us or anybody through friends, family or maybe the client themselves, if they're able to get to a security means of communication, we meet with them and give them a disguised go bag that we call Carol's Crusade Kit. In it, it has a new phone with new contacts in it, our contact, Domestic Violence Agency in your area's contacts, law enforcement, obviously, other domestic violence resources, human trafficking, if that's the case, pepper spray, the panic alarm, a little, mini hidden panic alarm.

Some cases, a recording device if you're trying to compile evidence against the abuser to get that final restraining order and get a possible longer jail sentence to keep them safe because so many of these cases are he said/she said. The abuser tends to file a counter restraining order against the client saying, "She abused me too," or "He abused me too." The judge ends up going, "All right, look, kids, stop. Enough. Stay away from one another," and that's it. It's handled like that.

Meanwhile, you've got a client who's living in fear for her life and just gets scolded by a judge for almost like fighting with her brother. To try to compile evidence against them, we sneak them that stuff. It's in the form of a hanger and other means, other household items that typically only they would have, only they would use.

Inside the phone has an Uber gift card, safety planning in it, what to do, where to go, steps to take, things like that.

Those are our services in a nutshell. We offer sometimes transportation. We'll do whatever it is that we ... Every client, every case is different. We'll do whatever we have to to keep clients safe.

Alyssa Scolari [07:44]:

That's incredible. I mean, you guys are like a team of guardian angels that help. It sounds like, and I know when you were talking, you were talking mostly about victims of domestic violence but you also had mentioned human trafficking.

Nick Luciano [08:00]:

Yes.

Alyssa Scolari [08:01]:

So, you also work with the human trafficking victims.

Nick Luciano [08:06]:

Yeah. We've only done several, not many. A lot of people associate us with DV, domestic violence, which is the big bulk of our work. A lot of volunteers balk at helping those victims. No one wants to because of the sensitive nature of it and they already put themselves at risk helping the domestic violence victims. The human trafficking ones, it could get dicey, especially if you're dealing with international.

My thing is, I just can't say no to somebody living in fear if I have the means to help them. I'll be more careful, but I'd be a hypocrite if I said, "No, I'm not going to help," and there's been a few like that where it's dangerous. This is dangerous. I'm not especially brave or anything like that, but I just can't say no to anybody who's legitimately living in fear.

We had things that we do to keep ourselves safe. Right now, we've got our lead volunteer for South New Jersey, our regional team leader, Nicole. She's handled a lot of those cases as well. We do things to keep ourselves safe, so I'm pretty confident in our measures that we take.

Alyssa Scolari [09:19]:

Now, who are all the people that make up the team? Are you guys just in New Jersey?

Nick Luciano [09:27]:

We're just in New Jersey for right now although we have helped clients throughout the country, several. Not many but there have been clients that have just found us from other states. It's really difficult for me to turn anyone down, although right now, we are so swamped with calls from New Jersey, I just can't really help people in other states right now, as much as I want to. That always costs a little bit more. I go to Amazon and stuff and we're doing video conferences. There's no way to vet what's going on with them at all.

Right now, we're just so swamped and so short on volunteers, that I can only help New Jersey and local areas for right now. But we've got me. I'm the CEO/Founder, Vice President, Zisa Belfer and her husband, Marc. They're in Monmouth County. They do a lot of the calls in Monmouth and a lot of fundraising and ...

Alyssa Scolari [10:20]:

That's up in North Jersey, right?

Nick Luciano [10:22]:

Yeah, by the shore.

Alyssa Scolari [10:24]:

By the shore. Okay.

Nick Luciano [10:25]:

Yeah, north shore area. They've done Middlesex and Ocean Counties as well. She does a lot of the fundraising with our main fundraiser, Cara Turchich who's been great. She organized these yoga classes for the summer. She got a bunch of yoga instructors on Bradley Beach to do free classes for the public on the beach.

Alyssa Scolari [10:48]:

Oh, that's awesome.

Nick Luciano [10:50]:

Yeah, and everybody donates. It's a $10 donation to attend the class. The instructors don't take a dime. We get all of it, so that's been really keeping us afloat during the pandemic. Cara's been great with her very creative means to raise money for us.

Then we've got Nicole, who's been huge ... Without her, I'd have to turn down cases without Nicole. We're already swamped. She's down here in South Jersey with me. I can't imagine not having her. What we're trying to do is recruit more volunteers, and she's going to train them. Maybe I can take the calls and she can train volunteers. She's been a huge asset. We're hoping she stays forever.

We've got Jonas Sherman up in Monmouth County. These are all folks with security backgrounds. They do private security details, and they travel throughout the country. While they're here, they help us out.

We've got Paul Carson. He's active duty Air Force. He's the one running the surveillance program that we have.

We've had a lot of volunteers come and go. Sometimes they have to disappear for a little bit and they come back, but we've got our board members who have been very, very supportive in everything that we do. There are so many to thank, I mean, I would probably take up your entire show just thanking the people who help us.

Alyssa Scolari [12:12]:

Just thanking people.

Nick Luciano [12:13]:

I mean, those are the core, the key players there.

Alyssa Scolari [12:16]:

That's the team. I think it's important to note that Forever Your Overwatch is a nonprofit, meaning, and just to make sure that I'm understanding this correctly, so that means that nobody pays for the service. The services that you provide to the victims are free.

Nick Luciano [12:38]:

Yes. They don't pay a dime ever. We also offer self-protection training, safety planning, situational awareness-type classes. They're really follow-up classes that we offer to the client, people we've already helped as well as a way for anybody in the public who needs our help to come to a class and reach out to us that way. We have a couple classes in Cherry Hill at Israeli Krav Maga in Cherry Hill, Don, the owner, Don Melnick. He's on our board. He lets us use his gym for free for these.

Alyssa Scolari [13:11]:

That's awesome.

Nick Luciano [13:13]:

Doesn't charge us a dime, so we train the women there and then we do some training there with him as well. Then we've got a couple places in Monmouth County that let us use their place to do the training. We've got a lot of supporters like that. It's another part of our service, and I can't wait to reanimate once this ends.

Alyssa Scolari [13:32]:

I know, once COVID is over. So you said a couple times that you guys are so swamped right now. Do you attribute COVID with the increase in DV incidents, because I know I've noticed that a lot in my private practice? There's been a heightened amount of domestic violence, lots of abusive fights going on, but what are your thoughts on that?

Nick Luciano [14:02]:

If it's not because of COVID. It's the world's biggest coincidence. I mean, I've been saying this to everybody. I was at work and talking to some of the guys. My wife and I, we get along great, and we noticed that we were getting a little snippy with one another, especially earlier on. That's normal but you take that and you take somebody who's already abusive, you take somebody who's already got anger issues and then this just compounds that. When a normal individual might get snippy with somebody else, this individual just gets totally violent and crazy.

I ask anybody who's listening, have you been short with somebody during this pandemic? I mean, I'm pretty sure we all have where you wouldn't have before. Now you take somebody who's already got some anger issues, a violent, abusive individual and then you add that, it's a volcano.

Alyssa Scolari [14:55]:

It's a nightmare. Absolutely. It's so dangerous. So dangerous. Now, how long has Forever Your Overwatch been ... So, you're the founder. What year did you create this organization?

Nick Luciano [15:11]:

In February 2018.

Alyssa Scolari [15:14]:

February of 2018. So, can you talk a little bit about what your background was before and what inspired you to start this organization?

Nick Luciano [15:24]:

So, my background was I was in the Marine Corps, then I used to work for the State Department protecting dignitaries overseas in Iraq, Afghanistan. Started learning a lot about security measures, doing security assessments. I realized that security was a lot more than just hitting people and knowing how to shoot a gun. That was my awakening, doing all that.

Then I worked for ADT, putting in alarm systems, cameras, doing security assessments on homes. Then little by little, having these security type jobs, I started realizing self-protection, I call it self-protection, not self-defense. Self-defense congers up these images of women in the gym hitting bags, which is great. We do that too. We do that too, but it's such a small part of the overall self-protection plan. So much more goes into it than just physical.

So, that's when I really, during that time, I got educated on how to implement security measures to keep yourself safe and then in the last 10 years, I've been working at Fort Dix training the military before they go overseas. A lot of the course that we teach aren't just shoot, run. People, when they think of the military, that's what they think. Some of the courses is urban evasion, how to deescalate a situation, active shooter response, security assessments of an area of a location; all of that just tied in to this. Think of it as a bunch of [inaudible 00:16:55] of security.

You've got way out here, which is information, where's the abuser now, to my friends and family, keep it on the lookout; police, my physical house, car, whatever that is and then you are the final ring. Our philosophy is address all of those rings of security all the way to you.

What inspired me was, it's not a great story to tell. It's nothing inspiring really. It was, for lack of a better word, an accident. I wanted to volunteer to teach. It was like, "I know all this stuff. Let me ..." It's a little bit different than your average security person. A lot of folks, "Tell them to get a gun and that's it. Get this, do this and that's it. You're fine." A lot of folks teaching in absolutes. There was just always this missing piece of security, huge missing piece.

I wanted to volunteer to teach at a domestic violence shelter. I have no idea why. It was out of nowhere. I think I was just sitting on the couch with my wife one night, and the way my mind works, it was like, "You know what, I want to do this." She's like-

Alyssa Scolari [18:01]:

It just came to you.

Nick Luciano [18:03]:

... "Yeah. Okay, do it." So, I just emailed a couple agencies. Camden County Women's Center got back to me first. In fact, they're the only ones that got back at the time. They invited me down, a couple conversations, they wanted to really get to know me.

So then I taught a couple classes there, and speaking with some of the women there, they were telling me, "Look, I'm scared. I'm going to leave here, I'm going to go home. This is great learning how to punch a bag, but what am I going to do? The guy's 300 pounds, six foot four. Got a gun. He's going to stab me. What good is ..." I started, "Yeah, there's other things that you can do, security, you can move." They go, "I don't have the money for that." None of them did.

So I did a GoFundMe, for, one to do security for the shelter itself because it had none and just to get inexpensive security items like door stop alarms, door security bars, little intrusion alarms that you just throw up against a door and they just make a loud siren when they go off, real basic stuff. I raised money for that and started passing that out at these classes.

One night, I get a phone call from one of the senior staff members at Camden County Women's Center. They had a client. Now, I was ignorant. I thought that all their clients were in the shelter. I didn't know how any of it worked. They go, "Yeah, she's home and the guy said he's going to go over there, he's going to kill her."

In my head, again, with all the research I've done, I had no idea that this was a possibility. I was like, "What do you mean he's going to go over there and kill her. Well, call the cops." Just like I tell people now and they ask [inaudible 00:19:44] response to me, that was my response.

Alyssa Scolari [19:46]:

Right. It seemed so simple.

Nick Luciano [19:49]:

"The cops don't do that." I've learned that over the last couple of years, they just don't do that. I mean, they might drive by, but even if there's a threat, they typically don't sit on a house for hours or days, whatever.

I was like, "What do you want me to do? Why can't you go there and bring her to the shelter?" Like, "Oh, we don't do that. We can't go to the house." I was like, "All right, well I'll go to the house." I got a bunch of stuff, called a couple buddies up that I worked with and we showed up at the house. At the time, we didn't know. I'm showing up with baseball bats and knives. Not smart. We were pretty ignorant. We're thinking this guy is going to show up, we're going to go ... We've obviously matured and graduated since then. We put in a bunch of security measures and stayed with her for most of the night.

A month later, I get another call. Same thing. Then another call. So, started doing more GoFundMe. Then I realized I had to make us official. Then I had to do actual real fundraising. It just started growing from there. Next thing you know, I'm getting a call from this agency or this prosecutor's office heard about us. I put up a crude website and just little by little started morphing.

We were doing the mission. Actually, at the time, I was doing the mission as we were still trying to get formal and official. I tell everybody, it's not like I had some business plan. I didn't have a roadmap. I still don't have 100% of a roadmap. Our mission's always evolving. The best analogy I can think of is changing an engine out at 70 miles an hour when we have to make a change. Request for help ... it's not going to stop. In fact, it just speeds up. So, that's how we got started. It's pretty much on accident. I just saw the need for it and I said, "Well, I guess I've got to do a little bit more. All right. I guess I've got to do a little bit more."

Even the programs that we do, "Well, this is great, but he's going to track me down. He put a device on my car." "Okay. Let me get educated on how to use this tracker device that I got and do a sweep on your car," and just little by little had to expand programs and learn as I go. I've asked others, volunteer board members to be a little bit patient because there's no precedent, there's no other organization like this in America. I've looked high and low.

Alyssa Scolari [22:19]:

You guys are the only ones that do what you do, and there's such a learning curve because I always think of people who get in the field to combat domestic violence, it's like playing a game of Wack-A-Mole. Just as soon as you squash one problem, there's another abuser out there with a whole new set of tactics that you have to figure out how to keep that person safe. So you are constantly needing to learn, especially as technology updates itself and people become more and more easier to track, it's got to be more than a full-time job. I mean ...

Nick Luciano [22:55]:

I've got to do it part-time. I've got two little ones, a wife, a regular job. I think that's why we preach patience with everyone. I wish it was a full-time job. We do struggle to get volunteers. I'm still doing a lot of house calls. It's hard to do that and still do the CEO type stuff. So much paperwork, logistics, ordering equipment.

I get folks, "Why don't you have this person do this or have this person do that." I have done that but a lot of times people say, "All right, I'll volunteer. I'll do this," and then they end up disappearing and I'm back at square one. I've got to get everything. So, until we get more established, until I get real solid, solid players and more of them, delegating is going to be a little bit difficult.

[inaudible 00:23:51] and Nicole have been great. Thank God for them. Tara has been amazing. I don't know what I would do without them, but we still need more volunteers, more people to take on some of these tasks and to be reliable.

Alyssa Scolari [24:06]:

When you say you need volunteers, what are some things that you would expect from a volunteer for those listening out there that are interested in doing so?

Nick Luciano [24:16]:

It might sound corny but courage, passion. I'll take courage and passion any day over experience. When I first started this, I was like, "Oh, I want to get military veterans." I thought it would be great for vets. I was a vet. I work with vets, retired police officers, I thought people like that would be great. I've found that they don't want to. They don't want to volunteer. I've heard, "I'm not going into somebody's house. You're crazy."

I had somebody who, the closest charity that we saw to this was somebody, they transport survivors to their court appearances, something like that. He told me I was "crazy" for going inside homes and being alone with some of the clients, which typically I'm not, but what are you hinting at? What do you mean? Why don't we just admit what you're talking about here? Why wouldn't you go into a home? You hear liability and I hear, "No, you never know. Just not safe." Liability gets thrown around quite a bit. I think it's just a word they like to use.

Alyssa Scolari [25:22]:

More of an excuse.

Nick Luciano [25:24]:

Yeah.

Alyssa Scolari [25:24]:

It's an easy word to throw out there. "Oh, it's a liability. You can't do that."

Nick Luciano [25:29]:

I hear, "Oh, do you have insurance cover this?" "Yeah, I have insurance, but it's," which was almost impossible to get because, again, [crosstalk 00:25:39]. It was just, "I'm not comfortable doing this. I'm not comfortable doing that. I don't want to do this. I don't want to do that." Like, "So, what you mean when you say you want to help people, you mean you want to hashtag things and post on Facebook, is what you mean."

If no one's going to the house, if no one is getting with them and doing follow-ups with them, I mean, how are you going to help them? How are you going to help them be safe? So, I'm a big believer of going to the homes and meeting them personally case by case. I'm not trying to disparage any other ... That's not what I'm trying to do, but what we're doing, we have to do that. I mean, it's been suggested to me, "Oh, why don't you just Amazon them a bunch of security stuff and do virtual safety planning." It's not the same.

Alyssa Scolari [26:29]:

No, it's not the same. If anything, it fosters more disconnect to do virtual safety planning. I think people feel more alone than ever.

Nick Luciano [26:39]:

That's a good point. I mean, yeah, a lot of them said the same thing, psychologically just what we provide being in the homes with them.

Alyssa Scolari [26:47]:

Yes. It shows people that you are literally with them. I mean, there's such a distance that comes from if you were to sit on a screen, there's just such a distance and it sends that message that's like, "Okay, I'm over here in my safety and you're over there in your problems." It just creates this disconnect. I totally agree with you on that one.

Nick Luciano [27:12]:

I was very disappointed at that. I mean, I've had retired cops and veterans reach out, express interest, and then when I told them what we do, I found myself defending what we do to them. Then it's just, I'm like, "You know what, I'm not doing this. This is what we do. Are you in or are you out. Yes, I want volunteers, but I'm not going to change our mission to ... If you're not comfortable going into Camden to help out a single mom and her two kids, then I don't want you. That simple. I just don't."

Sometimes I wonder if because they're so security conscious, that maybe it's made them a little bit too risk adverse. I have to worry. I have to wonder that, that, "Well, that's not safe," or "The police, are they waiting outside, are they ..." "No. Sometimes we've asked them to but a lot of times they're too busy and they can't."

I don't have a quick reaction team that's going to show up if I get into trouble. I don't have armed guards hanging outside. I just don't. This is what it is. I do everything I can to keep myself and the volunteers safe. We do training. We have self-protection items. Some of us wear vests. I'm trying to get more vests, body armor for us. But, at the end of the day, it's a risk. We're trying to help people who are living in fear. There's an active threat of violence against them. That's just, by nature, it comes with inherent risk to it.

Alyssa Scolari [28:44]:

What you're doing is the equivalent to what firefighters do which is you're walking into the fire. When you're going to walk into a fire, there's only so much protective gear you can put on, but that is the risk that you take in being a volunteer. If you are going to volunteer when it comes to domestic violence, you also can't be somebody who says, "Oh, liability, oh this, oh that," because when it comes to DV, nobody gives a shit about liability. Abusers don't give a shit about liability. So, I can imagine it's very hard to find people who are willing to commit to that because, in a way, it puts them at risk a little bit.

Nick Luciano [29:36]:

Oh yeah. I'm glad you said shit twice, and now I feel like I can say it now.

Alyssa Scolari [29:41]:

Oh yeah, we curse on this podcast. Life is ugly.

Nick Luciano [29:46]:

No, it's true. Sometimes people are busy. I get it, family life. Folks are busy. People have school, family. I totally get it. Just a lot of people though who do a lot of talking, post on social media how they're protectors and they're a sheepdog. That's an expression that just started several years back. They train. They're always training. They go to the shooting range and they're doing jujitsu. They're doing mixed martial arts. They're doing Krav. They're working out and getting ready for the apocalypse. Like, "All right, look, I've got something right now that is real world if you want to stop training and maybe using that."

Alyssa Scolari [30:30]:

Right. We're in the apocalypse. I mean, domestic violence is as bad as it gets. I think people also are resistant to ... and not just domestic violence, I know that's the majority of who you work with but also with human trafficking. People love to turn a blind eye to it. They love to pretend like it's not happening and it's not a real thing.

Nick Luciano [30:54]:

Yeah. Even I didn't know how prevalent it was until I started doing this. Obviously, I knew it was a thing. I've had family members impacted by it. It really wasn't until I started doing this that I saw how widespread it was. In New Jersey alone, there's an average of one intimate partner homicide a week, one per week where it's a current or former intimate partner murders their significant other or ex-significant other. One per week in just this state. That's murder. We're not even talking about violent assaults and ... That's 27,000 a year, assaults in this state.

Haven't even touched on human trafficking. Haven't even talked about stalking. We help people who are stalked by strangers. That doesn't technically fall under domestic violence. They get threats and they're stalked by a total stranger for whatever reason wants to harm them. We help those individuals. We don't even know what the stats are for that because they just classify that as murder. Pretty prevalent, more than people think.

Gone through news articles, and just in one year, I was able to find in this state just seven or eight, just in a year, typically a female. There was one male stalked by somebody was not a current or former partner and murdered. It's them too. It's in this state. The state's not that big, so all these numbers, chances are it's in your backyard.

Alyssa Scolari [32:20]:

Absolutely.

Nick Luciano [32:22]:

This isn't made up. This isn't a Tom Clancy novel. This isn't a movie.

Alyssa Scolari [32:27]:

This is real life, and the likelihood is, the fact of the matter is that those numbers are actually probably much higher because that's just what's reported. That's just what we know about.

Nick Luciano [32:38]:

Absolutely. Of course, you're not even talking about undocumented, illegals, people like that who you might not even know.

Alyssa Scolari [32:47]:

Because they'll never go to the police. They'll never seek help. Right. Right.

Nick Luciano [32:52]:

And a lot of other groups. It's bad. It's widespread. It's everywhere. I mean, we've got to do our best to, especially me, I'm constantly refocusing my brain reminding myself that I can't save the world, can't save everybody alone, because the moment I get burned out and don't want to do this anymore and it starts to negatively impact me family, then nobody benefits.

Alyssa Scolari [33:14]:

Exactly. Exactly. At the end of the day, you still have to put yourself and your family first because that's what's going to help you to help everybody else.

Because I know Forever Your Overwatch does accept donations, so if people wanted to donate, which for all of you who are listening out there, I highly recommend that you do. I had the pleasure of meeting a few people from Forever Your Overwatch. It was an event for victim services. This was back in 2019. I was able to see some of the services that they offer and some of the ways that they help their victims. The work that these people do is incredible and brave beyond words. Whether it's $1, $3, $10, if you guys are able to go donate, Nick, how would they do that?

Nick Luciano [34:16]:

We have a Facebook page that you can donate to. It's Forever Your Overwatch Foundation and then A Nonprofit That Protects and Empowers is the full name. But if you just type in Forever Your Overwatch, it'll pop up.

We're on Instagram, FYO Foundation. That's typically how we refer to ourselves, FYO Foundation. We're on Venmo. A lot of people like Venmo, at FYO Foundation. Venmo's a big one. A lot of folks donate through there because it's easy.

Alyssa Scolari [34:46]:

Yeah, it's easy.

Nick Luciano [34:47]:

People do fundraisers on Facebook at FYO dash Foundation. Facebook's a big one. A lot of folks do fundraisers for us. Every third Friday, we're doing a virtual spin wheel raffle where we give away some prizes. $25 and your name goes on the wheel. We spin it. It's an electronic wheel on the screen. We do that every third Friday.

We've got the yoga on the beach. We were doing self-protection classes to the public. We're hoping to get those started up again here in the next couple months.

Then we've got our website, FYO Foundation dot org. That is going to change soon but if you go there now, it'll direct you when we do change it. But it's FYO Foundation dot org. There's a donate button on that. Those are all the ways that you can donate to us.

Alyssa Scolari [35:44]:

If somebody wanted to seek help and seek services through you guys, they would just go to that website as well?

Nick Luciano [35:53]:

Yeah. They can also text us or call. Most people prefer to text. It's 833-396-4357.

Alyssa Scolari [36:05]:

Awesome. Well, I appreciate you. I appreciate everything that you do. You guys are doing, truthfully, some of the toughest work out there. Domestic violence is an insidious beast as is human trafficking, so ... Kudos to you for doing the work that so many people like to turn a blind eye to. It's amazing.

Nick Luciano [36:31]:

Thank you.

Alyssa Scolari [36:33]:

I really appreciate you coming on the show. I know you're very busy, so thank you so much.

Nick Luciano [36:39]:

Thank you. Have a good one. Appreciate you.

Alyssa Scolari [36:42]:

I hope you enjoyed today's episode. For more information on today's discussion and to sign up for the Light After Trauma Newsletter, head over to my website at alyssascolari.com.

Also, be sure to check out my Instagram for additional tips and resources at Alyssa underscore, Scolari underscore LPC. Thanks again for listening and take good care.

If you have ever considered alternative forms of healing, this is the episode for you! Brenda Kiss has used her own journey of finding peace and healing from abuse to create and trademark Transformative Neuro-Reiki, a powerful method of healing that she has used to help hundreds of others on their recovery journey. 

To learn more about Brenda Kiss and her services, visit https://www.brendakiss.com 

To download her FREE e-book, Empowering Activities To Help You Now, click here.

 

Check out the Light After Trauma website for transcripts, other episodes, Alyssa's guest appearances, and more at: www.lightaftertrauma.com

Want to get more great content and interact with the show? Check us out on Instagram: @lightaftertrauma

We need your help! We want to continue to make great content that can help countless trauma warriors on their journey to recovery. So, please help us in supporting the podcast by becoming a recurring patron of the show via Patreon. Every bit helps!

 

Transcript:

Alyssa Scolari: [00:00:23] Hey everybody. Welcome to episode five [six] of the Light After Trauma podcast. I'm your host, Alyssa Scolari. And today I have with me a very special guest, somebody that I know personally and professionally, name is Brenda kiss. Brenda is a transformative Neuro-Reiki master helping you turn your struggles into miracles to eliminate stress overwhelm anxiety, and to discover that missing piece to help feel guided, directed, connected, happy, allowing you to step out of the struggle into freedom.

She is a certified Neuro Associative Practitioner and Neuro-Linguistic Practitioner and Transformative Neuro-Reiki, Master combining a deep understanding of the mind and the power of energy healing to rapidly transform lives. So I am so excited to have her here today. And without further ado, I am going to turn it over to her cause I have a million questions.

So hi, Brenda, how are you?

Brenda Kiss: [00:01:55] Hi, Alyssa. Thanks so much for having me today.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:01:58] The pleasure is mine. I am so excited. I have so many cards questions for you. So the first one that I want to ask is you had this name trademarked, right? This Transformative Neuro-Reiki. What exactly does that mean? I've heard of Reiki before, but I don't even really know what that means either.

So can you explain more about that?

Brenda Kiss: [00:02:23] Yeah. So it's interesting. So years ago I was living in a place of hurt and victimhood. And I went through a couple of different processes for myself and those processes included neuroscience, energy, healing, and spirituality, but I had to piece it altogether with different practitioners and different people that I was working with.

After years of studying and after a huge transformation in my life, I put together a system to help people rapidly transform their lives through Neuro-Reiki , which combines neuroscience and energy healing and spirituality. So let me just break it down into smaller pieces.

So neuroscience, the understanding of human behaviors, the way our brain functions, the patterns that people make, how to literally take their association, their language, their physiology, and shift all that so that they can change their emotional state and live happier, right? Combine that with energy healing, which is the Reiki part, understanding how our energetic body works, how we are connected to an energy higher than ourselves and using that power to....

I want to say strengthen the change that the neuroscience makes. And then also working on the emotional piece, our mindset, because if we don't change if we don't work on changing our mindset, when we do these others, things are all short-term changes in my opinion, in my experience. So it's really the combination of all three areas that the mind, body, and the soul; the emotional, the physical, and the mental.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:04:03] That's fascinating. So I guess what I hear you saying is were in this place where you're realized, which I think a lot of us get to where it's okay, I have to go to this doctor for this. I have to go to this doctor for that. I have to go to for spiritual healing here for emotional healing what you saw as a need to be able to combine all these things.

Brenda Kiss: [00:04:27] Yes, absolutely. And through my own experience. This is going back, quite a few years ago I was searching for help. Which we'll probably get into in a little bit, but I hadn't really reached my breaking point, my bottom, like my flat point. And so I was reaching out for help all over the place and I found some really great mentors and guides all in the three areas: the mind, body, and soul. They guided me to make monumental changes in my life. And so what I did is I just took pieces that worked for me and put it into a proven system. And now I've helped hundreds of women change their life over the years.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:05:06] And you work specifically with women, right?

Brenda Kiss: [00:05:09] Yes. Mostly with women. Yes.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:05:12] Okay. And is there a certain reason why you have that specific population to work solely with women? Is that more just what you're drawn to or...?

Brenda Kiss: [00:05:23] So when I started, when I opened up my practice, at first I was guided to, I don't know if you believe in a higher power, but it was definitely guided to me to open up a practice. And I really didn't want to. I was homeschooling three small kids. My youngest was one years old and my oldest was six years old and I was guided to, and I have three and one in the middle there, the one, four and six were my kids' ages when I opened up my practice.

And so I was definitely guided to open my practice. And what happened was I was in a place where I was sexually abused as a child, date rapped twice in my late teenage years, battled eating disorder. I was an exercise buliemic and I was hurting all the time.

Even though I had a great life in the sense that I have amazing parents. I thought positively, I always had a positive outlook on life, but from having those traumas as a child, I had deep rooted belief systems that I wasn't good enough and I didn't deserve good things. And so what happened was when I went through my transformation, my heart just wanted to help more women like my old self. And so that's really why I found my niche.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:06:41] Do you find that a lot of the women who come to you for help have experiences with sexual abuse?

Brenda Kiss: [00:06:52] I would say sexual abuse is very high, eating disorders as well. And actually recovery from drugs and alcohol, because I also, not that I was ever in recovery, but I probably could have gone to recovery for alcohol.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:07:09] Yeah. I tend to look at as a therapist, I tend to look at eating disorders, addiction, all as coping skills to suppress trauma, and more often than not, it can be sexual abuse, physical abuse. So that makes perfect sense.

Brenda Kiss: [00:07:32] My drinking wasn't to suppress those feelings, to be honest with you, it was, I never felt comfortable in my skin, especially around men. So if I was going out and I was going to be around men, which makes no sense to be under the influence of alcohol around men, but I felt so more comfortable. My skin that I had to at the time, I felt like I had to drink in order to be okay with that.

It doesn't ,logically, it doesn't make sense, but in the emotional state that I was years ago, it made sense.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:08:07] Yeah, no. I actually think that makes perfect sense because a lot of times when I speak with my clients, or even in my own recovery PTSD, what we do is we get ourselves put in situations that are familiar to our past. Maybe being under the influence of alcohol and being vulnerable in order to be around men.

That was what was familiar to you. Like you were vulnerable because you said that you are a survivor of childhood sexual abuse. So then you continue to find ways to make yourself vulnerable around men as an adult. Does that make sense?

Brenda Kiss: [00:08:47] Yeah. So that's definitely something I did. So those clients are definitely drawn to me. And, I think where the people in recovery, cause that seems to be a large crowd too. That comes to me. I have a huge family, a history of drug and alcohol abuse. So I just have a passion to help with people in that area as well.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:09:10] now, one of the things that you had said is I was spending my life in victimhood Can you a little bit more about what you mean by that?

Brenda Kiss: [00:09:26] So I would live life as if it was happening to me. And so I'll give you a perfect example when I was growing up, the only thing I ever wanted to be growing up was a mother. And wanted to marry a rich guy to take care of me. So I could be a stay-at-home mom and just be with my children and love them.

I got exactly what I manifested. I found it a wonderful guy and he was a professional. He was able to provide for our family and I was able to stay home with my kids. And as much as I love my kids, what was happening was that I was still a victim in my story. So having three kids and having to stay home and breastfeed, and my husband got to go out with his friends and got to do this and all that and work and, be out amongst things outside of the house.

And, I would get mad at him and I would play a victim. That's one, one area, right? Like it made no sense yet. I was "whoa is me." I had to stay home with our three kids. You get to go, he was a, he used to DJ and he was an IT guy during the day. So he got to be out amongst adults talking and then I play the victimhood of I can't keep a clean house.

Like I have three children under the age of five. How do you expect me to keep a clean house? And I had all boys, so I made being a mother with boys, a victim too. That's so hard. You don't know what it's like to have three sons and then it would be with food. So when it came to my story around food, like I said, I had an eating disorder.

I ate for every emotion you can imagine, as happy, sad, lonely, tired, frustrated, bored, angry, you name it. I ate it. So when it came to looking in the mirror or talking to my friends, it was just like, Oh man, I can't lose this weight. Or look at my stomach, no matter how hard I try, I just can't be skinny enough.

So I became a victimhood in that story as well. And I'm sure many others, but those are the top three that I can think of right now of how I, and I lived there and it wasn't a great place to live. I built up a lot under it, a lot of resentment and frustration.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:11:31] And when you were living in this cycle of victimhood, did you know that it was a result of what you had been through in the past? Like how did you make that connection and what was the almost, breaking point for you where you were like:" I can't do this anymore. I need to get help."

Brenda Kiss: [00:11:49] So honestly, I had no idea that I was living in victimhood because I was the positive person. That's my circle of friends, or even my parents. They were like, Oh, Brenda's so happy. She's the advice giver. So I soaked my problems in food and other people's problems, basically, because that way I didn't have to deal with my own stuff.

And so I remember the day almost like it was yesterday, it was in May of 2000, actually, I don't remember the year, but it was in May. And I had finally decided to go back into the workforce after having my third child. And I started to reinvest in a home business that I had at the time. And they were having a conference and I went to this conference.

And I got all dressed up. I bought a special dress for it. I got all dressed up and I went to that conference. And at four times throughout that day, four times I had four different people, ask me when I was having my fourth child. I was not pregnant nor was I having a fourth child. And so I was like, holy crap.

If I don't get a hold of what's going on with me. And I'm going to be really unhealthy and unhappy for the rest of my life. And I confided in a friend who had knew that I was sexually abused as a child. And she referred me to this person in this book. And this person is a master NAP, NLP practitioner, which is how I get certified through her years later.

But I actually invested in a call and I invested in myself way beyond my comfort level. Outside of college. This was the biggest investment, years ago, I've made bigger ones since then, but where I invested thousands of dollars in myself and quite frankly, I wasn't working, I was a stay-at-home mom at the time and I was looking to get help.

And I just remembered that day, thinking to myself, If I don't do something, I'm going to be here years later. It almost brings me to tears. So I knew that I had to take the risk and invest in me. So that was the best decision I ever made outside of marriage and my husband and having our three sons together.

So if I can recommend anything to anybody would be invest in yourself because you're worth it. And you don't know that until you actually do the investment.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:14:11] I actually think that is such an important thing for everybody to hear, especially the listeners on this podcast, because I think that trauma survivors have the hardest time investing in themselves. costs money, and we have all these feelings of shame and guilt and worthlessness and it is. And we feel like we don't deserve it, but I know for me personally, it's been one of the best investments I ever made in my life. And it sounds like it was the same for you.

Brenda Kiss: [00:14:49] I remember when I told my husband how much the name of this program and this investment I was gonna do. And he said to me you can be selfish and take that money for yourself or you can leave it for the children because we had just decided to homeschool our children. And I said, you know what, if I don't invest in me, I don't know if I'd be there for the children.

And I'm not that he was saying it to be mean, my husband's amazing. We've been married. We've been together 19 years and married 15 years, and we have a beautiful, healthy relationship. So it wasn't that he was being mean back then, but he was saying what we needed the money for.

So he didn't realize how bad I was. hurting. So that's why he said that. So that was the biggest thing. And here's, what's interesting. The money that I invested not only came back personally. Through me, but we had saved some of that money for our homeschool curriculum. And so when you invest in yourself, the universe has your back.

And we were able to purchase our curriculum for our kids for half the price of what we were going to spend prior to me investing in myself. I don't know if I explained that clearly here.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:16:04] See.,That's incredible. It is. It's like when you invest in yourself, it comes back. It comes back. universe takes really good care of you or whatever higher power you may believe in takes. Good care of you. And not to mention the fact that your healing. Has allowed you to go on to help many others. So the work that we do for ourselves, whether or not we get into the same fields, but the work that we do on ourselves, has ripple effects.

Brenda Kiss: [00:16:42] Absolutely 110%. I had someone call me last week. Now I met this woman virtually for a long time. And then I, right before the pandemic happened, I had met her at a coffee networking meeting and literally had a conversation with her. Like just like we would have a con it wasn't working on her or anything like that.

I was, we were in conversation and she, that was February. She literally called me yesterday and thanked me for helping change her life through our conversation. I'm like, I don't even know what I said to you, but, okay. And so here, that's the perfect example of what you were saying, like just where I am and who, when you come into a place of healing, And having conversations, you bring light to the world for other people to see now that people don't always see it.

And that's okay. But this woman solid and made monumental changes in her life.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:17:40] It has to make you feel so good.

Brenda Kiss: [00:17:44] But it makes me realize, and I think my mission here on earth is to spread the awareness of consciousness, love consciousness. So it just brings me closer to what people call God, I call love. And it just, yeah, it just feels feels

great.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:18:00] consciousness, I've never heard that term before. What do you mean by that?

Brenda Kiss: [00:18:04] So some people identify the universe, God, for me, it's just love consciousness. And it means that, we're all connected through a thread of energy. We're all connected through whatever type of energy we want to put out into the world. So my goal and mission is to put love consciousness out into the world.

When someone reaches out to me like that, I realized that I was in that love consciousness, like in that presence of love and sharing through love.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:18:32] Gotcha. I gotcha. And of the things that I wanted to ask you is because I personally am not familiar, but what would this process look like? So let's say one of our listeners out there wanted to contact you. What does that whole process look like in terms of what you do? The specific services that you offer, things like that.

Brenda Kiss: [00:18:57] We do an initial consultation by phone and through that consultation is called an awareness call. It helps me bring out the patterns and awareness and where the challenges are coming from. So when someone has that call , they walk away knowing where they need to put some attention and to help them bring healing and love into their life.

And so that call then goes into a process. I worked with people in two different ways. One is through Transformative Neuro-Reiki, and that's where we to these Neuro-Reiki sessions. And those look like they're done via online. I have done some in person, but most of them are done online. And as a combination of all different techniques that I use through my NLP and NAP certifications as well as my energy healing and understanding spirituality. So that's the combination of all of that. And then I also have a 10 week transformational course where I help women let go of all their traumas from their past, let go of all their BS belief systems that is, and really ...

Alyssa Scolari: [00:20:01] I like that.

Brenda Kiss: [00:20:04] ...really let go of their fears and their traumas.

And most people don't even know what they are. And so this course really helps the two not necessarily getting the story of what they are, just identify, so that we can heal them and move on and then really help people develop into where they want to go and set boundaries and goals and begin to create the life that they want.

Our lives are lived through our belief systems that are running in the subconscious. The subconscious minds runs most of our life, most of our agenda. And so we don't know what that is or can't identify what that is or program our beliefs that we want in the subconscious. Then we're just doing stuff out of motivation.

I'm sure you come in late and you've been motivated to do a diet before and you do it. And then all of a sudden you self-sabotage and you stopped doing it. And that's because there's subconscious belief systems that say you don't deserve to lose weight, or you don't deserve to be healthy, or it's not for me.

My old story was, cause I battled weight my whole life. My old story was that it was scary to be pretty. And so I associated being skinny, but pretty. So anytime that I got skinny, I would feel uncomfortable and I would put weight back on. Subconsciously not consciously. I would be like, why am I eating?

again?

You know?

Alyssa Scolari: [00:21:22] of that is the pattern of eating disorder. It's not the putting the weight back on it's even when you are working so hard to lose weight. All of that is the eating disorder, right? The dieting, then the putting the weight back on, so much of it is subconscious and about a lot of what's in the subconscious. I think it's just body hatred because we've been taught to hate our bodies. Our bodies have not been treated kindly in the past. So that's the story that lives in our subconscious. That's what we tell ourselves.

Brenda Kiss: [00:22:01] Yeah I think there's a lot of different stories that live in the subconscious, but from my own experience, of

Alyssa Scolari: [00:22:08] Okay.

Brenda Kiss: [00:22:08] being sexually abused. My uncle used to tell me I was the pretty one, so I never wanted it to be the pretty one. And so anytime that I felt like I was the pretty one out of my friend group or whatever, I'd be really uncomfortable and have to be drunk in order to be okay.

Or I think that when you're sexually abused, it comes down to what's being told to you in that moment and then how it makes you feel afterwards. And then honestly, how it unfolds as you're healing from it. I work with many clients that they were blamed for the sexual abuse by their parents. That you caused your uncle to do that, or you caused your father to do that.

And so that in of itself becomes a whole another healing. And so the body hatred that you're speak of, for me, I don't even know if I realize I hate it, my body I don't even know if that was part of any of my healing. I do know that there was shame and guilt and I would say mostly shame and guilt ar around my body for sure.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:23:10] One of the things that always stands out to me, when I think of you so just for the listeners out there, Brenda, and I know each other, we live in the same town. We go to the same gym together. So I've known Brenda for years. And I too, as many of you guys already know, struggled with eating disorder behaviors for. 20 years minimum, and just this constant cycle of restriction and bingeing and overexercising and purging. And I remember having so much guilt and shame around my body. And I remember one time being at the gym with you and we were doing a workout somebody there, I can't remember. I can't remember the specifics, but there was somebody there who was basically like bashing herself.

And she kept saying Oh God, look at my stomach. This is terrible. one of the things that you said, and again, this was years ago, because this was when the gym was at the old place. this was a while back. One of the things that you said that has stuck with me, and then I think of all the time, I sink back into the body, hatred is. You told this person to her hands on her belly and thank her belly for all it does for her. I have carried that with me and it has been so healing to me. And I don't think you even know that you didn't even know that until right now.

Brenda Kiss: [00:24:59] Not not at all, it's one of the things that I learned when I was going through my healing was that. My belly and my body fat and the belief systems that I had, they were there to protect me and console me and make sure I felt safe and what I was going through, my transition or transformation, it was like, I wanted to let all of that: my belly, my hips, my, the body fat, the beliefs that I had at the time that they were all...and thank you so much for keeping me feeling safe in my body for all these years, but I didn't need it anymore. And like I had already started to reprogram my mind and belief systems, so I didn't need it to feel safe anymore.

And in my head, I know who you're talking about. It is, our body does exactly what we needed to do to stay safe, to stay protected, but then there's a time when we're ready to release that part and move on and, and we can't until we give grace and gratitude for what we have already.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:26:04] Yes, it's bellies and our eating disorders and whatever it is that we may hate 9 times out of 10, we develop. things to protect us. I know for me personally, my eating disorder actually kept me alive, and in some ways it was killing me, but in other ways it was keeping me alive. yeah.

When you said that it was life-changing for me, in terms of the way that I talk to my body, that was man, how many years ago was that?

Brenda Kiss: [00:26:40] I would probably say 6 to 7 years ago.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:26:44] Yup. I still take that with me

Brenda Kiss: [00:26:47] Wow. ,

Alyssa Scolari: [00:26:47] yup. So, all the work that you have done and all the work that you continue to do has ripple effects beyond I think what you even realize. So, yep, absolutely. So can you talk a little bit more about that energy shift when it comes to Reiki and why that can be so important and healing from trauma?

Brenda Kiss: [00:27:17] So our words, our beliefs, our feelings all have an energy, a vibration to it. And so what Reiki is the purest vibration of energy. It's that love consciousness that I was talking about. It's universal Chi. And so when we sometimes are, I'll say in my experience, some people aren't necessarily ready to, and I'm sure Alyssa you've experienced: they come for help, but they're not quite ready to do the work or open up and be vulnerable or whatever. And it's because there's so many layers of energy of emotion, that's stuck on them. And so what Reiki in my practice, this is not necessarily true for every Reiki practitioner, but the way that I use Reiki, okay.

I use it to de-layer some of that energy so that people can then become, be able to just breathe and be okay to move forward. And so when I work with people, I do the combination of it because sometimes there was a layer that comes off and then a wall that goes up, right? And so the Reiki actually helps release that wall and that energy that they have around whatever.

And it's in a noninvasive way, it's in a very subtle way, but super powerful. And so that's how I use Reiki when it comes to trauma and releasing energy,.Most people that have Reiki feel really grounded and peaceful and centered. And when you live in that state, that's actually supposed to be our normal state, grounded, centered, peaceful, happy, content.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:28:57] Yeah.

Brenda Kiss: [00:28:57] But when you are constantly in a lot of trauma, people live in a state of fight or flight. They live in a state of wary of stress, of overwhelmed, of guilt, of shame. And those energies are lower vibration. And so what happens is,the Reiki will come in and help just clear that energy at least for a bit.

And then I take the other work that I do and just reinforce the clearing by changing the mindset and doing all the reprogramming.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:29:28] It's such an incredible way of healing. think that's so important for trauma because any kind of trauma survivor has so many layers upon layers of defenses and energy. And if we can just get rid of that for a little while, shift that around for a little while the healing that I'm sure happen is gotta be incredible.

Brenda Kiss: [00:29:53] Yeah. Yeah. One of my clients and I didn't even know this when she started with me , I had asked her, she'd worked with me for 10 weeks. And I said, would you feel comfortable writing me a testimonial? And she said, absolutely. So she sent me this testimonial.

It said, I was called to work with Brenda. And when I started with her, I was teetering with the decision to live or not. I had no idea that's where she was. And then she just continued to say that, we broke down my walls and my barriers and in some, I didn't even know I had. And she goes, and now I'm envisioning a beautiful, wonderful, something like this: a beautiful, wonderful life ahead of me through Brenda support and guidance.

That's how I end the program, saved my life as what she said. And it's just that's why I do what I do.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:30:44] Yup. it's saving lives. think the blunt sad truth of the matter is that trauma takes so many lives, whether it be by addiction, by suicide, and that's the work that you're doing, it's lifesaving is what it is. And one of the last questions that I wanted to ask you is, you talk a lot about your three boys.

are a mom to three beautiful boys. How has in being a survivor of childhood sexual abuse, how has being a mom? Because one of the things you mentioned earlier is that you always wanted to be a mom. And of course it's difficult. I think when you do become a mom, I'm sure it's triggering in ways, but very healing in ways.

What are some ways that being a parent has helped you to heal?

Brenda Kiss: [00:31:45] That's a good question. I feel that my kids teach me to be present and in the moment and to have fun and not always take things seriously. And from my experience that is, I believe a symptom from my trauma was, life is hard.,life is unfair, this work is important. We got to get this done. And it just gave me those belief systems and, so having children and, just being in that space of being present, like this. Looking at the little joys, especially when they were younger and they like, saw : "look at that beautiful color blue mom", or like just the simplest things in life. And as they've grown, my oldest is 12 and then I have a 10 year old and almost 8 year old.

And now it's like watching them read and tell me stories an. They know more about the Corona virus than I did when it first was coming out. And I was just like, that's amazing. Like just being present with my children, I think is what's been the most healing for me.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:32:52] Yeah, they keep you

Brenda Kiss: [00:32:53] Yeah, for sure.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:32:54] and they help you to appreciate the small things.

Brenda Kiss: [00:32:58] And have fun They Remind me to have fun all the time.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:33:01] Yup. Kids are the best at that.

Brenda Kiss: [00:33:06] For my stuff, I could easily get lost in the work that I do because I love it so much. And then just responsibilities and I look at my kids and they're like, can we play this? And I'm like I gotta clean the house. And I'm like, no, we can play, like learning to be in the moment.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:33:22] Because you know what? can clean that

Brenda Kiss: [00:33:25] That's right. Yeah. It's not going going anywhere.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:33:28] we'll

Brenda Kiss: [00:33:29] The Kids on the other hand, are going to get older and move out one day.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:33:33] Exactly. Exactly. So can you talk about, because we have an exciting offer for you guys. You want to talk a little bit about your ebook?

Brenda Kiss: [00:33:44] Yes. I, as I said, I went through this big transformation a few years ago and yeah. I literally wrote this book on a plane ride home from Texas. It just was pouring out of me. And what I wanted to offer was a, I love to read, but like I said, I'm a mom of three kids and I was homeschooling at the time.

And my time to read was very far and few in between. So I really wanted to write a powerful, simple book that was a game changer. And so all of the tools, I won't say all because I'm constantly learning and growing, but a lot of the tools that I use with my clients I wrote into in a 30 day book.

And this book is available for all your listeners and it's 30 Days. And it gives you different tools every day to utilize. So one day you might focus on drinking water. One day, you might focus on being grounded one day, you might focus on meditation and it gives you all these different tools. And the idea is to find that ones work for you.

And then implement them in your daily life. It's downloadable and they can read it and implement it.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:34:47] That is so cool and so helpful because it's like guide of exactly what people can focus on with regards to their healing. And I think it helps the healing process seem not so overwhelming because it can be really overwhelming at times.

Brenda Kiss: [00:35:04] just simple tasks to help you feel better in the moment.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:35:08] And where can they find this at? Your website,

right

Brenda Kiss: [00:35:13] Yes, they can get

Alyssa Scolari: [00:35:13] isn't listed on the

link

Brenda Kiss: [00:35:15] it is, yeah, they can go to brendakiss.com and there's a free ebook offer there and they can download it there.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:35:22] Perfect. And guys, I will link the ebook on the show notes for this episode. It will also be on website. It will be on the Facebook page and it will also be on the newsletter that I send out. So no worries about how to find it. You will have plenty of options, but definitely go check that out. And thank you so much for talking to me today.

It's been a pleasure. I learned a lot and yeah. Thank

Brenda Kiss: [00:35:55] Thank you. Thank you so much. And I'm so excited and happy for you and your endeavors here.

In episode 5, Alyssa sits down with the wonderful Patty DiRenzo, who lost her beloved son, Salvatore, to a heroin overdose. Patty and Alyssa discuss the difficulties of traumatic loss, the stigma of addiction, and the inspiring ways in which Patty has taken her grief and used it to help save hundreds, if not thousands, of lives.

 

Check out the Light After Trauma website for transcripts, other episodes, Alyssa's guest appearances, and more at: www.lightaftertrauma.com

Want to get more great content and interact with the show? Check us out on Instagram: @lightaftertrauma

We need your help! We want to continue to make great content that can help countless trauma warriors on their journey to recovery. So, please help us in supporting the podcast by becoming a recurring patron of the show via Patreon. Every bit helps!

 

Transcript:

Alyssa Scolari: [00:00:23] Welcome to episode three of the Light After Trauma podcast. I'm your host, Alyssa and today I have with me, Patricia or Patty DiRenzo, Patty is an inspiring woman who has nothing short of a powerhouse in the field of mental health and addiction, particularly in the state of New Jersey. In 2010, her beloved son Salvador passed away from a heroin overdose. Since then, Patty has been at the forefront of change when it comes to addiction and mental health in New Jersey, most notably, she was an integral part of advocating for the passage of the Overdose Protection Act.

Thousands of lives have been saved because of this legislation. And Patty continues to get the word out through her advocacy, community outreach programs, and Naloxone trainings. Patty also serves as an advocate for the National Council on Alcoholism and Drug Dependence. And as a member of the Camden County Addiction Awareness Task Force in South Jersey.

As a task force member, she spearheaded the effort to ensure every police department was equipped with Naloxone resulting in the first county in New Jersey to have a hundred percent participation. She also plays an important role in other task force initiatives, included training and supplying residents with Naloxone.

Advocating for policies that expand treatment access, increasing prescription medicine take back programs, and educational events: including physician trainings, awareness events, and parent child workshops. Patty is dedicated to preventing other families from suffering the loss that hers did, and she will continue to be an advocate in the hope of saving lives and lifting the stigma associated with the disease of addiction.

So without further ado, I would like to welcome Patty. Hi Patty. How are you?

Patty DiRenzo: [00:02:52] I'm doing well. How are you?

Alyssa Scolari: [00:02:54] I am good. Thank you so much for being here today.

Patty DiRenzo: [00:02:58] My pleasure.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:03:02] Just in reading your bio. I am blown away by the things that you have accomplished and what you have done with what I can only imagine must be overwhelming and at times unbearable pain and as I was reading your bio, and as I was learning more about your story, one of the things that I realized is that Salvatore passed away in 2010

and it's now 2020. So is it coming up on 10 years or has the 10 years already passed?

Patty DiRenzo: [00:03:42] September 23rd will be 10 years.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:03:45] Okay. And today as we record this is August 7th, so it will be 10 years. And I just look at all you have accomplished in 10 years, and I just wonder, I would assume for you, it wasn't like this in the beginning.

Patty DiRenzo: [00:04:08] No, not at all.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:04:09] So what was that process like of you getting to this place where you became, like I said, just this absolute powerhouse in the field of mental health and addiction, how did you go through that process?

Patty DiRenzo: [00:04:26] Based on the way that Sal had passed. We were told that it wasn't certain, but it did appear that somebody was in the car with Sal when he overdosed. But obviously left him to die instead of wanting to help him. And like after he passed, I had so much anger and so much hurt and so many questions because I just did not understand how that could happen to anybody who leaves somebody to die, and the more I kept thinking about it and the more I was talking to people at that point, I was a legal secretary. So I honestly didn't know that much about the field of addiction. I failed in many ways in Sal's addiction, not catching signs, but I know so much more now. And, after time went by and I was really thinking about it and I was talking to people and I was hearing comments, just the stigma associated with addiction.

It's just heart wrenching to me. And I just thought this is what my son dealt with every day, while he was active in addiction, the way people treated him, like just reading comments and articles, I'm thinking. These are people that like, they have no clue. And I just kept thinking about it. I was at first angry at who would dare leave my son.

Now, I hope something happens to him and they should pay. But in reality, after going through all these channels and thinking about things and scenarios and reliving it, I realized that person was stuck with the same stigma the Sal suffered with. And at that moment, Their first thought was, Oh my God, I'm gonna be arrested.

What do I do? And there was probably fear upon them and they panicked. and left and in a weird way, I get it. So that's what drove me. I started making phone calls. I don't even know who I was calleing in the beginning. I was calling anybody that would want, to hear me. And I luckily found the drug policy Alliance and they had told me, I told them Sal's whole story, how he passed.

And they said, we have a 911 law that we. Had passed in other States and we're currently just working on it in New Jersey. Would you love to join us? I said, yes. So that was where I started my advocacy because to me, and the 911 legislation as if somebody was with someone when they overdose, they don't have to be afraid to call 911 because they are immune from being arrested because saving a life is more important than arrest. And that was how it started.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:06:52] Wow. Now, how long after Sal passed, did you start to become involved in all of that?

Patty DiRenzo: [00:07:01] Probably about a year after his loss that I started, because for that first year, I honestly don't remember much of that first year. I think I was just numb like those parents,

but then the anger started and then, you just go through all the stages of grief. And my anger brought me to my advocacy and that's when it all started.

And that was, 2011. I started advocating and working with them.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:07:26] And that's how ultimately you helped get that Overdose Protection Act passed, and that is such a huge thing when it comes to addiction, is that and what I hear you saying is that there is a potential that your son could have been saved if this law had been in place,

Patty DiRenzo: [00:07:44] Exactly.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:07:46] because it was suspected that he was not alone in the car. And just to be clear for the listeners out there. So this Overdose Protection Act, this has passed in different States, aside from New Jersey?

Patty DiRenzo: [00:08:01] Yes, there are other states that have this law. And in fact, which, I honestly feel like it should be a federal law, but

drug policy Alliance was advocated in different States. There's a good amount of States now that have it, but not every state. If you go on the drug policies website, you could look up all the States that have enacted the 911 legislation.

Ours was passed into law May 2nd of 2013.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:08:23] Wow. And that offers full immunity for anybody who calls in an overdose in order to save a life.

Patty DiRenzo: [00:08:32] Yes. And also immunity to the person in the overdose situation and our laws. You know also expanded the access to Naloxone because it was first vetoed by the governor. When we first went to the

vote, it was hard to beat it. Yes, but, it actually ended up in our favor because after that veto, they worked on it more and the added the Naloxone parts of it.

So now we can save lives. Now all of our officers have Naloxone and they helped to save lives with it. And I know that we're doing a great job here in the county.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:09:05] Yeah, we really are. Can you explain a little bit about what Naloxone is and how it works?

Patty DiRenzo: [00:09:10] So anyone that is overdosing with an opioid based drug, Naloxone will reverse that overdose. And it's a nasal spray. It's a very easy to use spray there's other forms of that, but the nasal spray is the most common.

And you just , when someone has an overdose, you put it in the overdose position and spray up their nose and it reverses the overdose. And the good thing about Naloxone is it's 100% safe. So if I have at my house and the child squirts up their nurse, it's not going to do anything to them.

It only reacts to opioids and

Alyssa Scolari: [00:09:47] Oh, wow.

Patty DiRenzo: [00:09:48] RIght

It's opioid based So they have any other drug in their system, it won't reverse it.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:09:54] Wow. So this is something that actually, and I did say you're advocating for, families everywhere to have this on hand in their homes, because it sounds like, there's really no danger to it.

Patty DiRenzo: [00:10:07] None whatsoever. And honestly, if you have elderly parents, or grandparents in the home, you should have Naloxone, even children. How many children get into medicine cabinets? Little toddlers. Naloxone will reverse that overdose if it's an opioid based medication.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:10:27] Wow. That's amazing.

Patty DiRenzo: [00:10:29] Yeah.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:10:29] Okay.

Patty DiRenzo: [00:10:30] I can't even begin to tell you how many families have probably been trained in Naloxone and have Naloxone on them. And I have it in my house. I have it in my car and I have it in the office. Because you never know

Alyssa Scolari: [00:10:43] Now do you offer those trainings?

Patty DiRenzo: [00:10:46] through Camden County, we offer the trainings Yes. And they're all free.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:10:51] And one of the things that you had touched on. A little bit earlier is stigma. And that's something that I wanted to talk about because there is so much stigma that surrounds not only addiction itself, but I have found also stigma surrounds family members of those who suffer from addiction. And I'm wondering what was that like for you? In what ways were you and your family and your son experiencing stigma or discrimination because of his addiction?

Patty DiRenzo: [00:11:32] Yes, I didn't personally face that much stigma because I was never shamed of Sal's disease. So I shared, I was open about it. I sheltered a little bit with my family when he was so sick and so struggling because it's, so it just takes the life out of the family. It's so hard to explain to somebody who has no idea what it's like for a family when they have a loved one in the house, struggling with addiction.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:12:02] Oh, it's so traumatic. It's traumatic for the whole family.

Patty DiRenzo: [00:12:05] It's totally traumatic. It takes every ounce of your energy. I'd wake up in the morning. And the first thing I do is go in his room and look to see if he's breathing. That's just what you do, and then if I leave and he's home and my daughter and I were constantly"Is Sal home, is he okay?" It's just...

it's exhausting. It's a very exhausting disease, but I tell people not only for us, but also for the person who has it. Yeah. Because their whole life is a, has been stigmatized because people don't see the real person they are. They only see the shell

and what they believe in their mind is, an addict, some dirty person, and it's not, and it breaks my heart when I think of when Sal was out in public, the way he was treated by people while he was actively use. And because he was such a passionate, beautiful person. And to think that people would treat him badly based on what he was going through hurts me so much as a mother to think of what he dealt with and that stigma it's just, it's something that. sadly causes a lot of people to not come forward with the disease because of the shame, the stigma, and if we get rid of the stigma, more people will come forward and all their families and share their stories.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:13:30] Addiction is looked at more so as a choice and what it really is a disease.

Patty DiRenzo: [00:13:36] It is.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:13:36] And it's this vicious cycle that you can't get out of. And it's. It's traumatic for everybody all around. And now you said you have a daughter, you have a daughter as well.

Patty DiRenzo: [00:13:48] I do.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:13:49] Okay. How old is your daughter? Was she younger or older than Sal?

Patty DiRenzo: [00:13:52] She's

older. Sal's the baby. Blake is 39. She's 39 in May. She's a teacher, an elementary school teacher and It was always the three of us, I'm a single parent, but I'm very close with my ex and his family and a very strong family bond, but it was always me, Blake, and Sal, it was our clic and Blake and Sal were extremely close though.

We all are dealing with this loss, and all in different ways because she is a sister who lost her brother and people forget that sometimes that was her brother, her best friend now. And sometimes I forget that.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:14:30] Absolutely. And one of the things that I have found that often occurs in any kind of traumatic loss in a family like what you've experienced, tends to break apart a family. How did you and your daughter's relationship survive the loss of Sal?

Patty DiRenzo: [00:14:56] That's a good question because we just. I think because we dealt with his disease as a team, like we were in it through thick and thin her and I, and honestly, Blake was more of my rock. I broke down way more than she did, but she has her moments, but I feel like she's more there for me. And I think the sad thing about that is that. When there's a loss like this, you think everybody tends to go to the mother and, because she lost her child and they, like I said, they forget there's siblings and there's others and there's a child and the grandparents, but the mother is the one that people really tend to try to embrace.

But we originally after Sal first passed as a family group, including my ex-husband and his wife. Brianna who's Sal's long-time girlfriend and my daughter and myself, we all went to a group family counseling because we needed to understand that we all grieve differently. We've all had a different part in Sal's life, and I can't get mad if my ex doesn't get sad or something, I get sad over it because we're different, we needed to come to that understanding.

I think that we are Very well as a team is we understand everybody. We all understand how each other agrees and what we all need, and we respect one another. And I think that's important.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:16:30] I actually think that's crucial. I think what you said is so crucial for families in grief, especially families who are grieving a traumatic loss. Everybody grieves differently. And some people for the first year go on with their lives and act like nothing happened. Some people cannot get out of bed.

It's different for everybody. And I think that families tend to get mad at each other. Why? Why are you not sad? It's the first Christmas without our son? Or why are you not more upset about this? Or why are you acting so upset about this and everybody gets mad at each other. And did you find that going to a counselor was really helpful in terms of helping you all to respect each other's boundaries and respect each other as grieving process?

Patty DiRenzo: [00:17:24] Absolutely. I would recommend it for any family that goes through this because I do have a lot of parents that, somebody will ask me, can you reach out to, she just lost her child. And that's always a complaint: "That is my husband. He's just doing his thing. He's living his life. Why is he not upset?"

And I try to explain to her. Everybody's different. It's not that he's not grieving, he is, but we all do differently and you have to give him his space and understand that. There's a lot of marriages that are probably broken up over the loss of a child.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:17:56] The majority of statistics show that the loss of a child is very predictive of divorce or separation. And yeah, it really drives families apart. And I think like you said, it's because the grieving process is so different. It's so different. And we have a hard time when we're in our own grief. We have a hard time understanding why somebody doesn't seem to be feeling the same way that we feel

Patty DiRenzo: [00:18:24] Exactly. And I'll make it a product of that because there's times that I'm in a lot of different groups of parents who lost children to overdose. And some of them will say as you said that like the first year they couldn't get out of bed, that they were on medication. I was thinking and I'll think I'll stop. Oh my God, I went back to work. I was functioning like. Did I not grieve my son the way I should have?

what did I...what's wrong with me? Why was I able to function? We're different.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:18:51] Absolutely. And you know what, that's a great point is that there's also a lot of shame around the grieving process for those who did go back to work and did continue on their lives. And then you see other people whose lives fell apart and you think what does that mean about me? Does it mean that I didn't love my child as much as that person. It has you thinking all these kinds of shameful thoughts and guilt...

Patty DiRenzo: [00:19:19] That's so true. And I think at times I felt like when I was at work are people looking at me thinking: "Look at her, she's okay." " She lost her son and she's working now.?" Yeah, it was few months, but I didn't stay out of work that long. I think I needed myself. I needed to go back to work. I was afraid that if not, I would cocoon and just get worse and worse.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:19:42] Yeah. And not only did you go back to work, but you also just, all that you have accomplished in 10 years. And again, I know we say it's coming up on 10 years and that might seem like a long time, but to somebody who's never, to somebody who's experienced grief, I should say 10 years is not a long time.

Patty DiRenzo: [00:20:04] Not at all.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:20:06] Not even a little bit.

Patty DiRenzo: [00:20:09] No. It's weird because it is, and it isn't. I sit, like I just said to my daughter not long ago. I said, Oh my gosh, 10 years. I can't believe that my son has not been here in physical form in 10 years that I have not seen him. It's just, I remember when Sal was actively using and I was always so scared and I would say Oh my God. Something ever happens to him. Oh, I don't know what I would do. I don't think I could either live any longer." Now it's 10 years later and I'm still here and life is going on. And I think the things that scare me are, of course I, there's no sense of his smell anywhere because before I'd be able to go into his room and smell his clothes and it still smelled and I could remember his voice, but I'm losing that now.

There's things like I have to keep reminding myself what he heard, what he sounded like. And it's just weird things that are happening to me now, coming up on a 10 year, she's like people are gonna forget him or I'm afraid that people are gonna say, Oh, it's been 10 years. You should be fine.

But I'm not.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:21:18] No. It's, the process, even though you've done so much to make sure that people do not suffer in the way that you have, but even after 10 years, and even with all you've done, that pain is still there.

Patty DiRenzo: [00:21:42] It is. And it's never going to go away. Anyone who tells anybody that it gets easier or it gets better, is lying I don't care what Anybody says it never gets easier because I still go to bed every single night. And the last thing that I think of is Sal and when I open my eyes in the morning, the first thing I think of is Sal and the thought that he is really gone, and I've got to get out of this bed and I got to go through another day without him.

And that's not easy.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:22:14] How do you do it? And when you say it, it doesn't get any easier. Is that sort of raw pain still the same as it was in 2010 or has the pain shifted shapes a little bit? Does it look a little bit different now?

Patty DiRenzo: [00:22:33] Yes. It's definitely shifted shapes as you say. It definitely does, but it's still there, and like you say, it's there on a different form because if I sit and think if I put myself to really think hard about Sal's life, when I'm alone at nights, and imagine what he went through that, it comes back almost like the same pain, because I'm reliving him and thinking about what he went through.

And that makes me so sad because I feel like any children or people who are suffering with addiction. It's just very sad. It's just sad. It's a sad life for them. They don't want to be like that. And it's so hard for other people to understand what this disease does to somebody.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:23:22] It's so hard and, I read a lot of, I'm not sure if you're familiar with David Kessler, who is a grief expert and he also lost his son to an overdose and yeah. One of the things that he talks about is even though the pain doesn't go away, it does, as I mentioned earlier, shift a little bit and take on different forms.

And one of the things he talks about is this new concept of the sixth stage of grief, which he calls was finding meaning. And he wrote a whole book on it. And he dedicated a chapter specifically to those who, to parents who have lost children. And when I look at your bio, I see how much meaning you have found.

I can see it from the outside, but do you see it?

Patty DiRenzo: [00:24:23] I do. I see it and that's, I think also what helps me to keep going because when I get really sad and start feeling like that, I think of all the accomplishments and everything I've done. And I know that my son did not die in vain. He has saved so many lives, just, sadly from his death, so many lives have been saved and that means the world to me.

Cause I know that would make him happy. And I do. I think I have all the accomplishments and everything that's been done. And I feel proud. I do.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:24:59] That makes me so happy to hear you say that because I look at you and I look at all that you do. I just think it is so admirable and you have taken such unbearable pain and you have created meaning in the most heroic way. You save because of you, you save lives, I would guess every day, every single day, because of you and because of your son and his story, and you did mention your son has a son, and... okay. Talk a little bit about, is there any kind of healing that you find and spending time with him?

Patty DiRenzo: [00:25:43] that's another bittersweet, because I have this beautiful grandson and that's, I actually feel privileged that I have a piece of my son's still, a piece of him is here because I talked to so many parents who say, I wish my child had a child so that I could have a piece of them. I know also, I almost, I'm so lucky because I do, I have that and he brings me such joy, but then there's times where it's upsetting for me because you have Father's Day comes around and he doesn't have a father and he's 11 years old now. And he knows how his father passed. We've told him because it's important. But I feel like, yeah, now here's a little boy who will never truly know the great person his father was.

And if we don't erase the stigma, he's going to think that his father was a bad person, probably what he's going to hear on the streets. And that scares me. So I constantly talk about Sal. And so his son, because I want him to know how proud I always was with his father and a good person he was. And I love having him in my life. It's amazing to have him.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:26:53] Yeah it's the part of your son that is able to stay and that you're able to have contact with him. You are able to, it's so important, I think that you are talking to him about how his father passed, because it does reduce stigma and shame surrounding addiction. And also it's important for him to know that his father was so much more than an addict...

Patty DiRenzo: [00:27:23] Exactly. And thank you.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:27:25] He was so much more than his disease. There are so much more to people than what they struggle with. And somebody with depression would not be labeled like, Oh there's the depression, but we tend to say, there's the addicts.

Patty DiRenzo: [00:27:46] If there's a theft somewhere, It was probably some junkie, it's just always.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:27:51] Yes.

Patty DiRenzo: [00:27:51] It's just always negative comments and it has to stop.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:27:56] Absolutely. If you could, what is some advice that you would give somebody who is actively using does want to seek help, but fears that stigma what's something you might say to somebody.

Patty DiRenzo: [00:28:12] I always say come forward, share your story, never be ashamed. I tell anybody, please don't be ashamed. In Camden County, You could call us any day and we'll give out free funding and we'll help you get into detox treatment. It's just, people need to know that their life matters. It really does. You know what, and they should never be ashamed of what they're going through, because there's people out there that, it's people on the streets, that just needs somebody to reach out to them and just let them know that they care about them.

I was doing handouts in Camden when the 911 law or Overdose Prevent Act the same as the 911 law giving out the Palm cards to let them know that there's a 911 legislation and I would walk through Camden and hand them out and just see their reaction when they knew that I was there because I care.

And I was given that and the Camden police would do this with me and it made such a difference when an officer went up to somebody and say here, I want to give you some information. You need help. Or if you're with somebody who's overdosed and we won't arrest you, please know this laws in effect and they, their eyes would light up because you could tell, they just want to know that they need something.

There's somebody

Alyssa Scolari: [00:29:31] Asolutely. And they want to know that it's not too late because I think so many people who struggle with addiction feel like it's too late for me.

It's just too late.

Patty DiRenzo: [00:29:43] And it's not.

No, I say it's never too late.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:29:45] No.

Patty DiRenzo: [00:29:46] People complained about, saving someone's life, maybe 10 times with Naloxone 10 different times. I don't care because you know what, maybe on that 11th time, when that person is saved, maybe then they'll go into treatment and we'll save their life.

Going forward. I don't care how many times it takes.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:30:03] Oh, so you're saying people have almost added to the stigma, because they're saying that they've used Naloxone, which is also known as Narcan, by the way.

Patty DiRenzo: [00:30:15] Yes,

Alyssa Scolari: [00:30:16] People are saying that they've used it, several times on the same person and this person clearly doesn't want help or, they write that person off.

Patty DiRenzo: [00:30:26] And yeah. Think about it. That's your child. I would want him to be saved as many times as he could, until he finds that moment that he wants treatment.

Yeah. I don't care what it takes.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:30:40] Absolutely. And it's the same thing with, let's say if somebody was struggling with an eating disorder, you don't expect somebody to just stop and never relapse again. That is...the expectations that we place on people who battle addictions are just unbelievable because we expect them to just go on a treatment, get clean and then that's it.

But it doesn't work like that. And the problem is, unfortunately, their addiction is more life-threatening than other addictions,

Patty DiRenzo: [00:31:14] And also there isn't, a continuum care or people come out of treatment. There's no continuum of care. It's just, okay, you finished treatment. See ya some go to sober living but there's so much more that needs to be done because initially there's a reason you picked up and tried something.

And usually it's because you don't feel good about yourself. You're looking for an outlet. So you need, to sit and go speak to someone. You need after you come out of treatment to continue seeing somebody and having a one-on-one, therapist that you talk to because there's something inside of you that you aren't happy with.

And you're not going to get that information in two weeks and treatment.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:31:55] I totally agree. Going to an intensive treatment program for two to three weeks or 30 days, or even 90 days, and then you come home when you come home, that's when the hardest work begins.

Patty DiRenzo: [00:32:08] And if you don't have support systems, sadly, you're probably going to relapse,

Alyssa Scolari: [00:32:13] Exactly.

Patty DiRenzo: [00:32:14] and I think a lot of places I went wrong and like I said, I wasn't familiar with anything. It's the first time I went away to treatment. And he came home. I was just like, I thought he was fine. I was like, Oh, you went to treatment.

He's cured. I had no clue, and it wasn't long after he was home that he ended up relapsing and I just didn't get it. And, I think that has to change and we need to have that continuum of care. And I think that families need to be educated, how to deal with them when they come out of treatment.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:32:46] Yes, because addiction is often a coping skill. And like you said, somebody usually picks up an addiction because they are trying to numb something out. And until you get to the core of that, their risk of relapsing is always going to be heightened.

Patty DiRenzo: [00:33:07] I agree.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:33:08] Now in terms of the work that you're doing right now, do you have any big projects that you're working on?

Patty DiRenzo: [00:33:15] Right now we have coming up in Camden County, August 31st is International Overdose Awareness Day. So what that means for Camden County is that the Ben Franklin Bridge and City Hall in Camden will be lit purple for overdose. Purple's the color that we wear for overdose. Also at Timber Creek Park and Gloucester Township.

I don't know if you've been to that area. Are you,

Alyssa Scolari: [00:33:39] I have. Yes.

Patty DiRenzo: [00:33:40] Have you seen the Memorial that's being installed there?

Alyssa Scolari: [00:33:43] No, I

Patty DiRenzo: [00:33:44] ribbon? So there's Hope and Remembrance Memorial for overdose victims that is being built at Timber Creek Park. It's going to be finished for August 31st and we'll have a Ribbon Cutting.

And what it is there's pavers. Family members were able to buy to remember their loved one. And it's just an area for. Families who have lost somebody to an overdose to go and reflect and sit. And it's an absolute beautiful site. We'll do the ribbon cutting on the 31st. And we'll also do the overdose remembrance vigil that night.

It's the first big event for Camden County right now, since COVID. So we're working very hard to ensure that, it's a safe event and we're covering every precaution we can. And it will be live streaming on Facebook also.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:34:31] So you are still going, still making meaning. I know you're just getting started aren't you?

Patty DiRenzo: [00:34:37] It's just, it's important to me to make sure that our children are heard through us and the parents that I feel like I need to be there to represent Parents who were lost like I was. I had no idea what to do and how to deal with things and what I've learned. I want to share with other parents to help them.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:34:59] And an effort that you can help somebody and maybe reduce somebody's suffering even just a little bit. It makes it all worth it.

Patty DiRenzo: [00:35:11] It does also, I just want to share a bit Camden County has two free programs. One is H.A.L.O., which is Healing After Loss of an Overdose and a specific group sessions for parents or anyone who else somebody to an overdose because as we spoke, even after your child's death, we're a little bit stigmatized as parents who lost somebody to an overdose because our child's passing or death is not seen the same as other losses that parents have.

If it was, cancer, car accident,

ours is almost as if people look at us and are like what did you expect was going to happen? So I never found that I could just go to a grief group and feel comfortable sharing Sal's story. So Camden County created, H.A.L.O which is specific for overdose and they've also just created halo youth and that's for 12 to 17 year olds who have have lost either a parent or a relative to an overdose.

And they're both great in there. They're at the Living Proof Recovery Center. I can send you the information for both of those.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:36:24] Yeah, that would be great. And so that's just in Camden County.

Patty DiRenzo: [00:36:29] Yes.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:36:29] Okay. I think that's so important because people who have lost loved ones due to an overdose, it's a different type of grief because of the stigma. As you said, people will look at it differently and people tend to have less sympathy and they tend to not want to talk about it as much.

And it's very important to if anybody out there is listening, who is thinking of joining a grief group for the loss of a loved one due to an overdose, try to find a group that is specific to loss from an overdose, because I think that you'll get more, much more out of it.

Patty DiRenzo: [00:37:11] Yes. And there is another one that's throughout the United States, any it's called G.R.A.S.P. And that's specific to a loss with substance use.

And you can just Google that on the internet and different areas. Different G.R.A.S.P in different locations will come up, that you could find one in your area.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:37:32] Oh, that's perfect. And what I will do is I will actually I'll link that website for everybody in the show notes so that you all can have easy access to it for those of you who are looking. And I think the final thing that I wanted to ask you, Patty is with all the work that you do for others and in the way, in which you've dedicated your whole life to saving others.

What are some things that you do for yourself to get a little bit of relief from everything that you've been through?

Patty DiRenzo: [00:38:11] I don't do a lot. Self-care for me is honestly spending time with my family and my grandchildren. That's honestly where I find my joy in, where I'm relaxed. I'm just most comfortable with my immediate family. And I love being with my grandchildren. I go to work every day. I come home and my life is to my grandchildren.

So that's what makes me happy. My daughter, I go to her house for the weekend. She has a pool in the back and we just relax and we enjoy our life and make memories.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:38:39] That's beautiful.

Patty DiRenzo: [00:38:40] Yeah. Yeah.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:38:41] Family. It's so healing. It's so healing and I'm thankful and glad and happy that you are able to be present with your family and still make good memories in spite of everything that you've been through. And I think it's important for people to hear that yes, in the aftermath of trauma and loss, there is overwhelming pain, crippling pain, but that it is possible to have happy memories in the aftermath of it.

Patty DiRenzo: [00:39:18] It absolutely is. Just one thing I just want to add to that. If you don't mind.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:39:23] Not at all.

Patty DiRenzo: [00:39:24] Originally like in the first year when Sal first passed, whenever we spoke about Sal, my daughter and myself, it was always all the bad stuff. It was always, I remember when he did this, remember he got caught, like we just kept reliving all of his addiction life.

And then someone told my daughter, Blake, they said, stop doing that, put that away. That's gone. And you remember your brother remember The good brother, the brother that was present, your brother you grew up with when Sal was not using the, Sal was a part of your family, all the good memories you have with them and going forward that's what we do now, because that always makes us smile. So we share our stories about Sal and share the fun times and the goofy times. And we put aside those bad times because that wasn't truly him anyway, that was the shell of him acting out from his disease.

we need to remember the person Sal truly was.

And I advise anyone who loses someone to substance use, to remember that and to just always remember the good times with their child or their loved one.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:40:31] Yes. That's what helps you hold on. Is those good memories

Patty DiRenzo: [00:40:37] Yes.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:40:38] I just want to thank you so much for coming on the show and sharing your story. I know that you made yourself really vulnerable today and. I really appreciate it. And I know that our listeners will appreciate it. You are one brave woman, so thank you for all that you do. And for all the lives that you've saved.

And quite honestly, I can't wait to see what you continue to do in the future.

Patty DiRenzo: [00:41:07] Thank you so much. I appreciate it. I appreciate you airing this because again, raising awareness. So thank you.

Episode 4 is a solo episode laying down some groundwork for future shows. Alyssa discusses a newer concept that is used to describe those who have survived a more specific type of trauma. It's called Complex trauma, which often leads to Complex PTSD. Alyssa introduces a resource where people can apply for grant money to fund their treatment for PTSD, called: www.beautyafterbruises.org  

Check out the Light After Trauma website for transcripts, other episodes, Alyssa's guest appearances, and more at: www.lightaftertrauma.com

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We need your help! We want to continue to make great content that can help countless trauma warriors on their journey to recovery. So, please help us in supporting the podcast by becoming a recurring patron of the show via Patreon. Every bit helps!

  Transcript:

Alyssa Scolari: Hey everybody, what is up? Welcome to the Light After Trauma podcast. I'm your host, Alyssa Scolari. And this is episode four. I've got a solo episode lined up for you today. We've got some pretty interesting stuff to talk about, so I'm just going to get right into it. I know that in episode one, we discussed PTSD and trauma and the symptoms of PTSD, the longterm effects of trauma.

[00:01:16] If it can go untreated. But in this episode, I want to break it down a little bit more because I think it's really important to talk about this new disorder or almost like a sub category of trauma that has been getting a lot more attention recently. And it's called see CPTSD. The C in CPTSD stands for complex.

[00:01:38] So you've got standard post-traumatic stress disorder, and then you've got complex post-traumatic stress disorder. Now in episode one, we talked a little bit about the DSM, which is basically the book. That's the holy Bible of the psychiatric world, where all the disorders that could ever exist are listed.

[00:01:58] CPTSD is actually not listed in the most recent version of the DSM. So that's how new it is. It hasn't even been distinguished from standard PTSD. In fact, it's not even something that's recognized by most doctors or any insurance companies at this point. I think there's a lot of work being done right now to bring more awareness to CPTSD.

[00:02:23] And on the surface, it seems like they're very, like the two disorders are really similar to one another. Both can be developed after some sort of traumatic event and both include a lot of the symptoms that we talked about in episode one, like flashbacks, exacerbated startked response, difficulty sleeping, symptoms of chronic anxiety, depression, nightmares.

[00:02:49] But the main difference between PTSD and CPTSD is that the complex means that we tend to internalize the trauma. So what does that mean exactly? There's a lot to it and PTSD, I by no means, want to imply that it's not something that's a serious disorder. It's very serious. It definitely has a much higher suicide rate.

[00:03:19] But complex PTSD is usually something that occurs as a result of long-term endured trauma. So for example, let's say somebody who is an adult gets into a car accident and they survive. But the other person that was in the car didn't survive. That person could develop PTSD. This wouldn't necessarily be complex PTSD because it is a one time incident.

[00:03:51] It's not something that went on for years. And a lot of people who develop CPTSD endured trauma that had them feeling as if there was no end in sight to what they were going through. Now I would say that for the most part, those who end up developing, CPTSD, usually experience their trauma in their childhood.

[00:04:19] However, that's not always the case. So, for example, veterans, people who go off to war and are away for extended periods of time with seemingly no end in sight. They are also prone to developing again, not just the standard PTSD, but complex PTSD, because I'm sure there are many times when soldiers are at war and they may think that the only way out of the situation is if they actually die.

[00:04:48] As a whole though, adults are much less likely to develop complex PTSD because as an adult, your brain is already fully developed. So it is expected that you have more resources and more tools at this point in your life to be able to cope with the trauma. It's the childhood abuse survivors who are at greater risk of developing complex PTSD, because their trauma that they endured plays a monumental role on shaping their overall outlook on life.

[00:05:21] As they grow into adulthood. And again, I think I mentioned this in episode one, but I just want to point out it's not necessarily the traumatic event itself that causes PTSD or CPTSD. Rather, it's the lack of support that often comes after the event that causes the disorder. So for example, let's say you have a family of four mom, dad, and an eight year old and a ten-year-old and the ten-year-old dies of leukemia.

[00:05:51] That is absolutely considered a traumatic event in childhood for that eight year olds. But that doesn't necessarily mean that eight year old is going to develop PTSD or even complex PTSD. It's what happens afterwards that will determine the outcome for that child. So in my experience, when family members lose a child, They handle it in usually one of two ways. And one of those ways is they talk about it openly. They go through the grieving process. They grieve together. They use that grief to bring them closer. If they feel that it's necessary, the family goes to therapy. The remaining children go to therapy and this overall puts the child and the family members at a lower risk of developing PTSD.

[00:06:46] And then on the other hand, I've seen families who lose a child and that starts the process of them ultimately falling apart. Mom and dad don't get along. They're fighting all the time. Nobody ever talks to the other children or the other child about what happened. Nobody goes to therapy, nobody processes the death in any way, shape or form.

[00:07:11] Instead families move on and almost act like that child never even existed. It's not something that people feel like they are able to bring up. It's not something people talk about. It's swept under the carpet and then people go on with their lives. When families react like this to the death of a child or really any traumatic event, it makes me a lot more concerned for the overall outcome of the child because that child is much more likely to develop PTSD.

[00:07:46] And if it is that case where the family falls apart after the death, then that PTSD is likely to turn into complex PTSD because then that child has to witness mom and dad falling apart. Parents getting a divorce. One of the parents potentially turning to substance abuse, that child not feeling like he or she has any sort of support in this world.

[00:08:12] Nobody paying attention to that child. Nobody talking about the child's deceased sibling it's trauma on top of trauma on top of trauma for that child that ultimately seems never ending. With most of the kids that I've worked with so far in my career that have some sort of traumatic experience, a lot of them end up having CPTSD and not PTSD.

[00:08:40] I can remember one client in particular. She was 16 years old at the time that I met her. And she had been bounced around all over the United States between different foster homes for probably about two years before she had come to see me, she was removed from her mom's care at 14 years old because mom was doing drugs and the stepfather was sexually abusing all of the children in the house.

[00:09:19] So just think about this for a minute. This girl went 14 years living in a home with five other siblings, all of whom were being sexually abused. Mom was doing drugs, selling drugs out of the home, and nobody intervened for 14 years. Her biological father was nowhere to be found. Her mother actually refused to even tell her who he was.

[00:09:47] And because stepdad was abusing all of them. And because mom constantly had dangerous people coming in and out of the house, buying drugs, this child would sleep under the bed at night just to have some sense of safety. So the first 14, 18 years of her life before foster care came into the picture consisted of physical danger, emotional instability, parents who could not take care of her trauma, on top of trauma on top of trauma. And then at 14 once foster care finally intervenes. She was only further traumatized by being placed into a system where at that point she was 16 and a lot of foster families weren't willing to take her in.

[00:10:41] Because she was already showing signs of rage and inability to form attachments. She was using marijuana to self-medicate. She was failing school. She was showing signs of rage and aggression. Understandably so, but a lot of foster families were willing to take in her younger siblings, but they weren't willing to take her.

[00:11:06] And so she was separated from all of her siblings. More trauma. And then she was bounced around to different foster homes where she was sexually abused in some of them. More trauma. Ultimately this girl ran away from the foster home that she was being abused in and she ended up being in a psychiatric hospital.

[00:11:33] After which she came to see me and I started working with her. I want to say it took me about a year of working with this girl before all of the details of her trauma started to come out. I knew a little bit about her based on the legal guardian that she was staying with, but I didn't really know the details and she would come to the sessions a lot of times just wanting to make jokes or talk about the weather. Or sometimes she would come in really flat and wouldn't say much of anything at all, but then she would leave the session and go home and be really upset and be suicidal. And she repeated this pattern. I'd say probably like I said for about a year until the details of her abuse finally started to come out as she started to trust me more.

[00:12:29] And just as a disclaimer, I know I share quite a few anecdotes about the patients that I see in my private practice on this podcast. And I do want you guys to know that I take the privacy of my patients very seriously. So a lot of times when I am telling you anecdotes, I have changed a lot of the details of the stories behind my clients in order to protect their privacy.

[00:12:55] So, if anybody out there is concerned about that, I just wanted to make that clear. Not everything you are hearing is exactly true in order to protect my clients. However, the gist of the story is still the same. The message is still the same. So as you can see with all of the different types of trauma that my client had endured she ultimately developed complex post-traumatic stress disorder. She had years like a decade and a half of abuse that ultimately she couldn't see an end to. She had no parents that were there to take care of her, nobody to guarantee her physical or emotional safety. And she internalized the abuse and therefore had symptoms that were much more difficult to treat than somebody who would have one instance of trauma, such as getting into a car accident.

[00:13:56] As you can see the trauma that usually causes complex PTSD is chronic, it's long-term. And it's not just with child abuse. It's also, for example, if somebody is taken as a prisoner of war and they are held for months at a time that's chronic long lasting, there's no end in sight. There's no assurance of any sort of physical safety, emotional safety, appropriate human connection.

[00:14:27] All of these things are ultimately what caused CPTSD. And that disorder is something that has much more serious long-term consequences. And when you're a child, it also can change the way your brain develops making you more likely to develop substance abuse issues, more likely to have anxiety, depression, more likely to commit suicide, et cetera.

[00:14:55] People with complex PTSD are also more likely to repress their trauma versus suppress their trauma. So there's a big difference between repressed memories and suppressed memories when it comes to trauma work. And for the most part, what people do when they endure trauma is they tend to suppress their memories.

[00:15:19] So that means that the flashbacks and the awareness of the incident is still in your conscious mind. You're aware of it, that it happened, but you more or less take active measures to avoid thinking about it. So you avoid maybe going to the place where you got into a car accident, or you avoid going back into your childhood home because you know that you grow up in an abusive households.

[00:15:46] You develop an addiction to alcohol, because you're trying to find ways not to have to think about your trauma, but all the while you are aware and you are conscious of what happened to you, what you went through and what you endured. Repressed memories are a whole different type of beast. And people usually repress their trauma when it is childhood abuse.

[00:16:13] And more specifically when it's childhood sexual abuse. When you repress your trauma, you are not consciously aware that it happened. So it's buried somewhere in your unconscious and it may come out in different ways sometimes in the form of what's called body memories, where if somebody is talking about, let's say you were sexually abused as a child and if somebody starts talking about sex, maybe you might feel yourself being assaulted in your body, but you might not really understand it. Maybe you might have chronic depression and not really understand why or where it comes from. Maybe you might be afraid to be in relationships with somebody or afraid of intimacy and you don't understand it could be a result and, not always, but it could be a result of repressed memories.

[00:17:10] So you don't actually have any consciousness of what happened to you, but it's still affecting your daily life and your overall quality of life. And again, I just want to emphasize that those who have repressed memories, aren't just victims of sexual abuse, really people with any type of abuse have the ability to report, repressed memories. On a personal note, I have experience with repressed memories. I had suppressed some of my abuse, so I knew on some level that some things had happened to me, but most of what happened to me, I ended up repressing. So I did not remember if you had asked me before I started, what's called the uncovering process. Which, the uncovering process is basically when you start to have all those repressed memories from your unconscious come into your conscious mind.

[00:18:13] So you start to become aware of them. When I started the uncovering process or before I started, rather, or if you had asked me if I had abuse as part of my history, I would have looked at you and I would have said "hell no, I don't know what that's like at all." But then throughout my adolescence, I battled a raging eating disorder.

[00:18:37] I battled a lot with suicidality, just feeling worthless. Like nobody wanted me on this earth, but I didn't understand why. And if I ever opened up to anybody about feeling that way, a lot of the feedback that I had gotten was: "W why do you feel like that? There's no reason for you to feel like that you have this wonderful life."

[00:19:04] And truthfully, I did have a lot of great things going for me. I truly did not understand why I felt like I wanted to end my life, why I felt like I needed to self-harm why I felt like I needed to self-medicate until, probably about a couple of years ago. And I started the uncovering process and I think it's really important to note that not everybody actually does go through the uncovering process.

[00:19:37] Some people repress their memories of abuse for forever. Some people stay in that level of denial forever. And that could be for a number of reasons. Not everybody who endures trauma is able to go through the uncovering process if they've repressed. In order for somebody to go through the uncovering process, they ultimately have to find themselves in a safer space in their lives. So they have to find themselves surrounded with a good support system, a good therapist, and ultimately a goal for their future so that they are able to do the work of uncovering and do the trauma work that it takes in order to recover.

[00:20:22] Because uncovering memories after having repressed is a very difficult thing to do. It's one of the best things that somebody can do for themselves, because it really frees them from the chains of their abuse. But it's extremely difficult, especially if you're still in the trauma. So people who were abused by their parents, if they live with their parents until they're 30 and then have a kid.

[00:20:53] And then have an apartment. Well at that point in their lives, they're too busy moving out of their abusers home, trying to raise a child, trying to afford an apartment that they honestly don't have the time, the support, the money or the resources to be able to uncover their repressed memories. So this uncovering process, it's not for everybody and that's okay.

[00:21:21] There's honestly so much more that I could say about repressed memories and the difference between repression and suppression. But I am going to just leave it at that for now, because we will have plenty of time to get more into it in the future. But, I just wanted you guys to know that repressed memories are often a big part of CPTD.

[00:21:46] And I want to transition back to some of the long-term effects of CPTSD. They are more chronic and more long lasting than standard PTSD. Because when we go through a complex trauma. So for example, let's use like prolonged childhood sexual abuse. It can be so confusing. We have a different way of seeing ourselves when somebody violates us at such a young age.

[00:22:20] So we have difficulty trying to gain a sense of ourselves. We have difficulty trying to figure out how to stay present. So we have a lot of what's called interruptions in our consciousness. We do something called dissociate quite a bit, which is basically a fancy word for disconnect. So we find ways to emotionally, mentally check out of the situation when we can't physically escape.

[00:22:52] So children who live in abusive homes may picture themselves almost as having like an outer body experience. Or sometimes they'll picture themselves being at the opposite end of the room when their abuse is happening, or sometimes they may feel like their bodies are filling up with water when they're being abused.

[00:23:15] It's just a way to disconnect from the present moment. It's basically the brain's way of trying to protect yourself and down the line, this can actually develop into what's called dissociative identity disorder which is also a disorder that can be a result of trauma, not something we're going to get into today, but dissociation definitely lends itself more so to complex trauma, as well as that.

[00:23:44] It also lends itself to difficulty with relationships. So think about it like this. If you're a child and you are enduring abuse by your mom, let's say you are being physically abused by your mom. That's one of your first relationships that you have in your life. The first relationship that you have is with your parents.

[00:24:09] And if you're in a relationship with somebody who is abusing you, then it can be really confusing to figure out later on in life. What's appropriate in a relationship and what's not appropriate in a relationship. And when you have a perpetrator in your life or somebody who abused you ongoing for months or years, or however long, it can be especially confusing to try and figure out, how you're supposed to feel about that person. So a lot of people struggle with this idea of like I can't be mad at my mom because she raised me. She's my mom, or I can't be mad at my dad because we had a lot of good times together. There were lots of happy moments where he would take me to the park or where we would go to the beach or where he would babysit me or, my mom bought me clothes or my mom would take me to my friend's house.

[00:25:13] So I can't be upset with her for abusing me. That's one of the hardest parts of recovery from any kind of trauma, especially complex trauma, is just the confusion. How am I supposed to feel about somebody who took care of me in some ways, but utterly shattered my psyche in other ways? Another major example of this is in the Larry Nassar scandal.

[00:25:45] So I recently just finished and I did write a blog post about this. If you go to my website alyssascolari.com, you'll be able to read more about it, but for those who are not familiar, Larry Nasser was the doctor for the USA gymnastics team. And he was also the doctor at Michigan state who was charged with child pornography and counts of sexual abuse.

[00:26:13] He had spent nearly three decades sexually abusing young women all under the guise of treating them. So basically what would happen is the girls who are training for gymnastics. If they got hurt, got an injury, they would go see the doctor and the doctor would be Larry. And Larry worked really hard at developing seemingly genuine relationships with not only the girls that he was treating, but also their families.

[00:26:45] He would make special visits to the family's household. He would buy the girls gifts. He would write them letters. He would remember their birthdays. He would go out of his way to make all of these girls feel like they were so special. And then when he had them on his table in his office, he would sexually abuse them.

[00:27:08] And again, if you've not read "The Girls" by Abigail Pesta, which is a book that is all about this case, I highly recommend it. It is a earth shattering read to say the least, especially when it comes to giving a voice to survivors of sexual abuse. But basically Larry Nasser is the perfect example of a predator who can cause somebody to develop complex PTSD and can cause people to develop these really confusing and skewed perceptions of their predators.

[00:27:49] Because on one hand, he was so nice to them. He made them feel special and loved and like they really mattered. But then on the other hand, he was violating them in the most horrific way. And especially as a kid, it just leaves you feeling so confused and it leaves you feeling almost like you can't be angry at that person, or you can't tell on that person or you shouldn't speak about what they did because then it negates all the good things they did for you.

[00:28:25] And it negates all the ways in which they made you feel special. And I do have to say in my experience in treating children who are survivors of prolonged sexual abuse in my private practice, I can say for certain that this long-term effect is the one that's the hardest to recover from is the confusion of how could that person have hurt me so badly, but also made me feel so loved.

[00:28:58] And that's something that ultimately, I think takes people years, if not decades, to be able to recover from. So again, this is just one of those topics that I honestly could talk about all day. There's so much depth there and there's. So much important information to learn about the differences between PTSD and complex PTSD.

[00:29:27] We will definitely talk more about it in this podcast, but I wanted to come on and do the solo episode today so that my listeners can get a baseline understanding of what the differences are and ultimately what the longterm effects are. And I invite you to read more about this topic. A lot of the information that I got today comes from this amazing website that I encourage you to go check out.

[00:29:57] I'm going to link it in the show notes, and I'm going to link it in the Facebook page. It'll also be sent out in the weekly newsletter. It's called beautyafterbruises.org. And it explains in much more detail about the differences between CPTSD, PTSD and the overall long-term effects. So that is all for today.

[00:30:24] I hope that this was helpful and informative for all of you. I know it's a lot to process and some of it can be triggering if you're feeling triggered by anything that I talked about today, I encourage you to reach out for support. I know for me, personally, this is a difficult episode. It's a little bit hard for me to talk about some of this stuff.

[00:30:45] So, right after this, I am going to go order some delicious take out and snuggle with my dogs on the couch and engage in some good self-care and I hope that you guys do the same.

[00:31:01] Thanks for listening everyone for more information about today's episode and to sign up for the Light After Trauma newsletter, head over to my website at alyssascolari.com.

[00:31:11] The really great thing about being a part of this newsletter is that not only do you get weekly updates on new podcast episodes and blog posts. But you also get access to the private Facebook community as well as access to all sorts of insider tips, resources, and infographs that supplement what we talk about on the show.

[00:31:29] You also can connect with me and other trauma warriors. I'm super active on the Facebook community. And I look forward to talking with you.

This episode is all about trauma in career development and the workplace. Alyssa and special guest, Valerie Hicks Ashley, M.S., dive into a discussion on how one's history of trauma can impact a multitude of work-related events. For example, did you know that job interviews can be a major trigger for most trauma survivors? Go check out the awesome work Valerie is doing at www.valerieashleycounseling.com Resources:

How to Answer the 64 Toughest Interview Questions

 

Check out the Light After Trauma website for transcripts, other episodes, Alyssa's guest appearances, and more at: www.lightaftertrauma.com

Want to get more great content and interact with the show? Check us out on Instagram: @lightaftertrauma

We need your help! We want to continue to make great content that can help countless trauma warriors on their journey to recovery. So, please help us in supporting the podcast by becoming a recurring patron of the show via Patreon. Every bit helps!

 

Transcript:

Alyssa Scolari: [00:00:23] Hey everybody. Welcome to episode two of the Light After Trauma podcast. I'm your host Alyssa Scolari. And this episode is a super special one for me because it's the first episode in which we have another trauma warrior on air with us. She has taken a lot of the dark times in her life and she has found light in them.

So today I'm going to be speaking with Valerie Ashley, who has been working with trauma survivors of all types for over 20 years. Valerie has her master's degree in community and trauma counseling from Thomas Jefferson university. She also has certifications in domestic violence and sexual abuse and of particular interest to Valerie is how trauma affects us in the workplace.

And this is something that really doesn't get a lot of light shed on it. But it's so important when it comes to being a trauma survivor and trying to figure out how to manage the workplace. Our careers take up, I'd say the majority of our lives at some points. Valerie is coming on the show today to talk to us a little bit more about that and how we can manage being trauma survivors in the workplace.

And with that being said, I am going to turn it over to you, Valerie. So hello, how are you?

Valerie Ashley: [00:02:16] I'm great. How are you today Alyssa?

Alyssa Scolari: [00:02:19] I am good. Thank you. Do you want to just tell the listeners a little bit more about yourself? Expand on what I said a little bit.

Valerie Ashley: [00:02:27] Sure. As you said, I've been practicing for more than 20 years with a specialty in what I call trauma informed career development counseling.

So that's a big title, but what I mean by that is that I have over the years that I've worked, realized that people's trauma affects their ability to create a sustainable healthy work life. And so I really worked on pairing that to where it begins and then helping people to make the connections between their trauma, so where their trauma begins and where their difficulties are then in their work-life and piecing those together to be able to get through even just the idea that they have any kind of professional identity, then how do you go through a job search? Because job searches are particularly triggering for people. And then how do you get into a workplace and handle all of the workplace dynamics? Like things like office politics, which requires someone to be able to really grasp the subtleties of a human interaction. And when you are a trauma survivor, oftentimes those are things that you don't really learn or you're actually, I would say, even your brain and your nervous system can't really take it. So that's the gist of what I do. I work with people individually right now.

I'm working virtually completely virtually, but when all of this is over. We'll see. But I used to work in person and I think that if anybody is saying to themselves, what's wrong with me, why can't I have a job I can live off of and take care of my family with or take care of myself with or from I think that this is the kind of thing that might help them make sense of that.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:04:37] Absolutely. And I think that, as trauma survivors, the majority of us require treatment, but treatment costs money. To have money, we need to be able to hold down a job and to hold down a job, we have to be able to manage our trauma. So it's like this vicious cycle.

And it's. So many bosses I have, I've had supervisors and bosses in the past that have said, leave your trauma at the door or not leave your trauma at the door per se, but leave your issues at the door when you come into work.

But when you are a survivor of developmental trauma, trauma in your childhood, your brain literally has not formed to be able to leave your baggage, quote, unquote at the door.

Valerie Ashley: [00:05:35] So I completely agree with you about this idea of leave your trauma. I would say, even leave your feelings at the door, don't bring in any of who you are fundamentally as a person that just.

I just have never in my entire adult life understood that because who we are, doesn't stop when we go into work. And what else, what I want to say about that too, is that the other thing I find really interesting is why it is that there are so many competent, wonderful trauma therapists out there who help people integrate themselves by processing their trauma, but they end treatment right before or right when they hit work life. And I think that's like this huge piece that's missing for people in trauma treatment. So I think that's one of the questions that I have is why are we not talking about how trauma impacts someone's work life?

And I think also the other thing I want to say about leaving your feelings at the door is that when you are a trauma survivor, one of the things like it's a weird way to say this, but you actually, there's a kind of a gift that comes out of it. And that is having an incredible sixth sense about people.

You learn to have a sixth sense because it's part of survival in our world. They call that being hypervigilant. But in this case, to me, vigilance. Could be something that can really benefit you when you're going through an interview process or when you're learning to work with people because you've got a job.

So leaving your feelings at the door is the worst thing I think a person could do, especially someone who's been exposed to trauma. And has that kind of experience.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:07:31] Absolutely. It's almost in therapy, we as therapists, we work on what's called integration. And how can anybody be expected...

it's like you have to integrate as a trauma survivor, but then you go onto the workplace and. Forget about it all. You're a robot. Not assuming it doesn't work like that. It actually encourages dissociation.

Valerie Ashley: [00:07:57] Exactly. Yeah. And I think that for complete integration through trauma processing, this piece of work has to be done.

And I still question why no, one's really looking at how to do that. And also dissociation is definitely something that is encouraged by that idea that you're just going to leave everything at the door. You need to bring all those feelings in so you can manage how you're feeling and not actually dissociate either in an interview or when you're actually working.

Cause things will trigger you on the job. So maybe that's something we could just talk about a little bit, maybe what we could do is start by just talking about how people, why the job search for most trauma survivors is so triggering. Would that be okay?

Alyssa Scolari: [00:08:48] Yeah, absolutely. That is one of the things I wanted to ask is like more specifically and more concretely, what are some of the issues that you found that come up for people?

Valerie Ashley: [00:09:00] So I, like I said earlier, I've taken my thought process back to the very beginning. So the very beginning is first understanding what someone's trauma is. And most people who come to me have done some of that work, but not all of them. So if there's still more, that needs to be done around processing their trauma. That's something that we can do, but then what we really need to look at that point is who are you? What are you looking for? Do you even have a notion about what kind of work do you want to do or how you see yourself fitting into professional life?

And I would argue that a lot of trauma survivors do not have that because. That process takes place when you're young, generally speaking. So a child, my idea is that a child as they develop, they get access or they get exposed to jobs and professions through their parents, friends, through their clergy, through their community, their teachers, their neighbors.

And if you absorbed that you absorbed, like you might see a fireman on a fire truck and say, Hey, what is that guy doing? Or that truck's really cool. I want to drive that. And maybe your parents take you to visit a fire house. And so you get some exposure and let's say you meet a teacher that is you particularly gel with and you think, wow, I would like to be her.

So these are the ways that children begin to develop their ideas about who they are or who they want to be. And as you grow older, and I would say you get into high school, those what I call vague notions about the things that are of interest to you probably have been pared down a bit.

And maybe what you find out from your schooling is that you're particularly drawn to art classes, let's say, and you're really talented in that arena. And you are either going to come out with an idea of a notion about a focus for a job search, or you're going to come out with an idea of focus for a concentration at college.

It depends on what direction you're going in and that sort of where you grow from then and develop a work-life. What I say is that when you are living in a traumatized situation. You're in a home where there's chaos, where there's abuse. You live in a neighborhood, where there's crime or you go to school and you work with teachers who they themselves are, trauma survivors, that chances of you being able to develop that are very little because your nervous system is so heightened and so on alert all the time.

That's what you're focused on. So what my work does is it actually allows people to go back and recreate that process. So that they're able to start to say, Oh yeah, I remember being interested in this or, I've always really admired people who did that. And then once you have that, then you can start to actually create a focus again, either for going to school or for a job search.

So let me just stop there. Does that make sense?

Alyssa Scolari: [00:12:24] Yeah, it does. So basically what I hear you saying, and one of the main goals of your work is to help people to break down their trauma defenses so that they can see who they really are and what path they really want to take in life.

Valerie Ashley: [00:12:42] Yeah. I think that's a perfect way to say it, breaking down their trauma defenses, or I would also say maybe we're saying the same kind of thing, but also just connect their reactivity, let's say to something that they have to do in order to get a job. So let me just, I want to just say a little bit about that. So let's just think about asking a trauma survivor to write their resume. And this happened to me, this is how I started to figure this out and the client wouldn't do it and I didn't understand why they wouldn't do it.

And at first, my reaction was, oh, there, being obstinate, not just resistant, but obstinate. And then I realized that the reason that they didn't want to do it was because writing a resume requires you to look at your history and to think about your history. And that's probably one of the last things that trauma survivors want to do.

So you can see how, what you're talking about breaking down your resume, your trauma barriers is involved right here in actually doing a job search. Does that make sense?

Alyssa Scolari: [00:13:54] Yeah it's honestly mind blowing to me because it's one of those things that you would think would be so simple, but you're right.

Valerie Ashley: [00:14:03] Asking somebody to write a resume is asking somebody to reflect back on their history. And I would imagine that the same difficulties arise even in an interview process. So let's say trauma survivors land an interview. How do you think that interview process affects people?

Let me just first, before I go on to that, and I will just say with respect to the resume, not only are you asked to reflect on your history, but you're also asked to say what you're good at doing.

I'd say and most people have who have this kind of exposure or any kind of trauma exposure really don't know what they're good at doing. So that becomes another trigger. Oh God, I don't know what I'm good at doing. So how am I supposed to write this? But your other question regarding interviewing is really critical, because let's just think about when we go into an interview and someone says Alyssa, tell me about yourself. I can almost guarantee you that a trauma survivor without this kind of intervention from trauma informed career development counseling is gonna just have like their brain explode because they don't know what to say.

The first thing they might think of is I'm a trauma survivor. Cause there is that in their identity, but you can't say no, you can't say that in an interview. So that's where dissociation can occur. And I've seen, clients I've known of them. They go in, they dissociate and they cannot remember anything about what they're trying to say.

And I would argue that a lot of people who have that dissociation happened to them should consider, is there trauma affecting them in that particular way? And then the second question that you might be asked is, so why should I hire you over somebody with the same credentials?

Alyssa Scolari: [00:16:02] Oh, just listening to that gives me butterflies in my stomach. I can't even imagine.

Valerie Ashley: [00:16:08] Think about it. If your whole life you've felt as if you're less than you're worthless, you don't amount to anything, you don't get things, you're still the shame. Asking you that question again is just is mindblowing. And so what the trauma-informed career development counseling does is it helps someone to recognize that connection and then to learn how to talk about themselves. So you, so now you have a resume that really for people when they see a resume and what I usually do is write it for them so that they can see themselves in black and white, and they can use that resume then as guideline for how they want to talk about themselves. So there's a lot of processing there goes on there in order for someone to be able to be even successful in an interview.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:17:03] Wow ! OKay. So let me ask you this. What advice would you give somebody? So let's say some of our lists owners out there are struggling. They have a therapist and they have this sort of rift or separation wherein they go to work and then they go to therapy. But. They're triggered and work, but they never really bring that into the therapy session.

What advice might you give somebody who's struggling with that? Because I think that as trauma survivors, we've all, even once we get to the point where we do become employed and we do get a job, I know personally I can recall countless times being so triggered by people who I worked with, people in authoritative positions.

And I wouldn't understand why, but I didn't even know enough to be able to bring it to my therapist and talk to her about it. Does that make sense?

Valerie Ashley: [00:18:06] It does. I think it's a really good question. So what I would advise someone to do is to work with someone who is familiar with how trauma affects you on the job.

I mean I'm a therapist. So I would work with somebody to understand relationally what's happening between them and another person. But I'm also going to be able to look at, so what's happening here between you and this person in relationship to your trauma. So an example is: I have found over the years of doing this work an uncanny, granted anecdotal connection, between trauma survivors and picking abusive bosses or picking up spouses that, I've had them where you're like, what is happening here?

I can't, this person doesn't treat me well. I don't understand what their directions are. They're making me feel like scattered and chaotic. And I don't know why. And I think the tendency is for us to blame ourselves. That's the first thing to say that there's something wrong with us. When in fact there may well be something that, maybe you working for a boss who's just abusive.

Who's had their own trauma and it was 70% of Americans experiencing at least one trauma. You're bound to be running into people who you're working for who've had trauma. What I'm going to go back and further and say, the thing to do is to look at, in my opinion, the thing to do is to look at how you came to have that job with that person.

What are the kind of questions that you asked? What were you feeling when you were in the interview? Because as I said earlier, this six sense that I think trauma survivors have in this situation is a real gift. Because it allows us to pick up on those feelings, but if we're not paying attention to the feelings, then we won't pick up on it.

So I just think that it's really important to make sure that the interview process is one where you're very tuned in. And if you are in a situation with like that with a boss that is making you crazy or a work situation, that's making you crazy pay attention to it and know that you can change your job, that you're not stuck.

That this isn't the only place that you can work, which I think is another kind of symptom if you will, of having lived with trauma. Is this feeling right? You're trapped and you're helpless and you're not. So there's this very circular thing that goes on with people who have trauma from the beginning stages to being on the job, to being in a situation where maybe you have to change your job. So knowing how to go through a job search without all the triggers is part of what opens you up to new opportunities.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:21:19] Yeah. And part of I love the way you put it in it, it makes me smile.

Actually, when I hear you say it, when you talk about us having a sixth sense and embracing it I just think that I've never heard it put that way before. And I think that it's such an empowering way to put it. It makes us feel empowered, like having a sixth sense. That's so true.

Valerie Ashley: [00:21:46] And it is empowering and I think there's so much that trauma survivors go through when to heal and to become integrated. And this is one of those pieces of the trauma experience that is a strength. And I'm all about what are your strengths? What do you know how to do let's give voice to that part of you that sort of has been squashed.

And the sixth sense is something that I see repeatedly over and over again. And that's why I'm so confident saying it. So it is, it's a real strength, I think.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:22:27] Yeah, it is. And I love hearing you put it that way. I just think that this topic is so important and it's not given nearly enough attention. And I'm wondering, how did you come to develop such a passion for this specific area?

Valerie Ashley: [00:22:50] That's a great question I have for my whole entire work life, been in career development in one form or fashion, and actually I fell into it like a lot of people do. I come from a family of therapists and at the time I did not want to be a therapist.

I was not interested. But I was really interested in and good with people. And I was really interested in that intersection between psychology and business psychology and works/ work life. I just think I started, I studied psychology and I started to think about that a lot. And so I had a job and my job was as a manager director of a career development center.

And part of my job was to interview the students. I call them kids, but they, I think I was actually pretty close to the same age, but at any rate. So I started to realize that in those interviews that some people had personal histories that affected them. So the trigger for this whole thing was talking to a student who was interested in the law, had really good grades in the graduate program I worked in, but his grades from his university, which was a really good university, were not on par with what he needed to have litigation firms really look at him. And I, it just, something just didn't add up. So I asked him this question, which I now ask all the time, what's the most difficult thing you've ever had to deal with in your life to date. And he said to me, when my mother died suddenly during my junior year of college, And the light bulb went on and I thought, Oh, okay. That's what happened. No wonder his grades plummeted, but it gave me the tools then to be able to say to him, so this is what you, how you have to talk about this when you go into a litigation firm or write about it or in a cover letter or at any rate, bring it up because it'll make the picture make sense.

And that's from there, I just took off and I said, part of what we're doing is we're not asking people the right questions, it's interesting. And career development, career counseling, vocational psychology, whatever term you want to use for it. One of the things that really happened about a hundred years ago, is that who you are as a person and what you do for your work started to be separated out. So therapists did one piece of the work, career counselors did another, and then it started to come back together a bit, but it's still, in my opinion, if you look at all the theories over the past 100 years, they're amazing theories.

But one thing they don't include is any discussion of trauma history. And as soon as you add trauma history into career development, all of those theories have gaps. When this student said this to me, I just thought, Oh, these are the kinds of questions that we need to be asking as career development specialists, but also we need to be willing to integrate, to think about a whole person and not just work they do, because what work they do is completely affected by, or don't do is completely affected by their emotional life and their personal history. So that's how this launch

Alyssa Scolari: [00:26:24] Absolutely. It is so true. It's so true. And I think back to being in graduate school and having my career counseling class, and I remember that class very specifically because it was late at night and my teacher was so boring.

I apologize if you're listening out there, but it was a terrible class and we never once talked about trauma and how that impacts the work environment and your career development. Never once was it brought up and looking back on it, it's Oh duh, like what, why weren't we thinking?

Valerie Ashley: [00:27:07] Yeah, I don't know. I don't know. And I was in a graduate program that was strictly trauma. Every class was about trauma, but in a different, in the trauma of the family trauma, the neurobiology of trauma and the career development class, I can't say it was a void of that topic because it was a trauma program, a graduate program, but there wasn't a lot to go on to talk about it. My understanding of the career development classes is that it's really structured around passing the LPC or the exams, because there's a lot of information on those board exams licensing exams that you have to know in order to do it. But it's I just think about it and I think, gosh, we're just missing an entire piece of a person's life.

And actually rather a large piece of their life. If you think about how many hours a day we spend working, and then how many years would we work? That's a lot of the person's life. So I'm on a mission to get the word out about this, because this is something that we need to be talking about and we need to be creating curriculum around and that sort of thing.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:28:29] Absolutely. And I, one of the things I wanted to ask you is that, so your master's degree is specifically in trauma, and I know you said earlier, you come from a family full of therapists and you had no interest in being a therapist. How did you get on this path of having a passion for trauma ?

Valerie Ashley: [00:28:53] That's a great question. So a lot of, yeah, other therapists and especially people study trauma. I had my own, I grew up in a family where my parents were both foreigners. My mother was French and she grew up in Paris during the Nazi occupation and she and her family most of her family survived, but what I, the way I describe it is it's like it's growing up in a family with a depression of the soul. And when somebody goes through what my mother went through, it's trauma on so many different levels. And I think it's I'm a big believer in it's seeping into you through your DNA.

And I never really understood because my mother would not talk about what her experience was and we weren't raised as Jews. So I was never around anybody. You had that experience. I think I told you I was actually raised as a Quaker, which I think is really ironic given the silence the way that Quakers worship is a silence and there was silence all around the issues that my mom grew up with. And then my father was British and he grew up during the war in London and suffered terribly a lot of trauma there. So there was that in my family. And so I grew up that way. And then I, myself was in a really bad accident when I was 19.

And I think that actually started me on a path of trying to understand. It was trauma on trauma and maybe if, my siblings didn't have that and maybe they were able to navigate the trauma in a different way, but I couldn't, it was, so it was such a bad accident that it forced me to go into therapy and I still didn't want to be a therapist, but I was always just scared in that way, because my mother's a therapist. My sister's a therapist, my brother-in-law was a psychiatrist. It was just around me. And it just was normal to me that people went into therapy, but and that therapy was beneficial, but I think that being, so I spent a lot of time at career development, but being a therapist per se, really like I made that decision a few years ago when I was in Paris with my son.

And I visited the grave of my ancestors who are buried in a very prominent Catholic cemeteryPère Lachaise in Paris. And there were, they were Jews. And I could see that they were all Jews because of their names and because of the Jewish star, because there was Hebrew written on their gravestone and it really struck me.

And I think because I grew up in America, I really didn't have access to that. Or it just struck me. I was like, Oh my God, I'm the great granddaughter and great-granddaughter and niece, to all of these people who were survivors. Either of the Holocaust or the first world war, it just was so clear to me.

It was something that I had to do that I needed to expand and really help people process their trauma because I feel incredibly fortunate that I've been able to do that. And it's a hard process and it's not fun for people to do at all. But I think that it's lifesaving and I think that you can overcome your trauma and there are people out there who can help you to do it, and you can overcome it in every aspect of your life.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:32:42] Absolutely people can recover and I think recovery looks different for everybody. And I personally believe recovery is a lifelong process.

Valerie Ashley: [00:32:53] Right.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:32:54] And I don't think. I don't think you're always suffering. And I think a lot of trauma survivors are suffering, but there is absolutely hope. And you can absolutely get to this point where you move from being in the suffering to owning your pain and integrating like we've talked about.

And again, that process looks different for everybody. What would you say is one of the biggest contributing factors to your personal healing.

Valerie Ashley: [00:33:34] I just wanted to go back and just add onto something that you were just saying, and that is not only can you not, can you live, enjoy but the fact that you survived, these, this trauma, whatever the trauma is, makes you an incredibly unique interesting powerful person, because I feel like I found a voice, my voice in all of this. And so I just wanted to say that I don't think this being a trauma survivor is there are some things about it that make you who you are, and it's very unlike other people. And I value that a lot. I no longer look back and say, geez, I wish I had other parents.

I'm so grateful for the parents I had. I'm so grateful for what they taught me. I don't know. The way that they educated me. So just let me come back to your question though. I think the, one of the biggest was working with a therapist who did EMDR. And yeah, and I started to do that.

I was triggered by something. I can't, it doesn't even make sense. It doesn't make sense what it was it's so it's irrelevant, but it was right around my birthday and my mom, who was alive and she said to me, this is the trauma from your accident. See, this is what it's like to have a parent who's a therapist. And I was like, what? And she said, I'm telling you, this is the trauma from your accident. And something triggered you and you need to go see somebody who does this. So my mother did EMDR on everything having to do with her own trauma. And it was a miracle how much it changed my mom, because before that, and I love my mother dearly and I'm really glad she was my mom.

But before that, it was a struggle for her when there were four of us and I'm the youngest, but it was hard for her when, for us to be needy. Cause I think she was so needy herself. And anyway, she was this very brave woman who constantly reinvented herself. And so at around age 70, she started to see this EMDR therapist and she became the mom that I always wanted.

And the reason that she was like that is because she could share herself in a way that she never did before she like really grew peaceful in her own self. And she was more available because of that to me. And so when she said that to me, I was like, okay, I honestly, and even to this day, I still don't really understand, but I started that work with an EMDR professional named Michael de Antonio who's in the Philadelphia area who I think.

I remember after starting it, that my husband said to me, Oh, this is the new improved Valerie. I just, it was very subtle, but it was like, I had so much anger that it sorta came out sideways sometimes, and that just dissipated. It actually went away. And I remember my sister saying to me it feels like the Valerie that we knew when you were younger before this accident has returned.

And that's what I felt like energetic and not angry and able to think. And it was just been an amazing process. And I highly recommend that for anybody. Like I felt, like I said, all I could say, I didn't know what else to say anymore. And EMDR helped me to look at how it was connected to my body and my brain.

But not just through talking and thoughts if you will, so that to me has been the most healing work I've done. And, I would say one other thing is having children and I was, it was very healing to have children and to be able to raise them in the manner I had wanted to be raised. And again, that's not to put down my parents because I love them dearly, but I can see ways in which this, I felt like, okay, I'm taking up this mantle and moving it into this generation and I can do better.

I should do better. I'm called on to do better as a parent. And I think being responsible that way for your, Oh, as soon as you have children, you have to start thinking about how you're affecting them. And I wanted to be really careful and sure that I wasn't effecting them in a deleterious way.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:38:44] Absolutely because you realize that trauma can be passed down through the generations.

Valerie Ashley: [00:38:50] Yeah, and my kids knew my mom, my mother just died actually this time last year, I think, my kids knew her and we weren't silent about everything. We talked about it and so it was out in the open. And so anyway, that's the other thing that I think really helped me.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:39:10] That's incredible. That's incredible. The work that you do is incredible. Your journey to this career for you is incredible right now. What does the work that you're doing right now consist of?

Valerie Ashley: [00:39:27] I work as a trauma therapist and I do have this specialty and I really want to, I'm willing to work with people who have trauma period.

I'm especially interested in working with people who are recognizing that their trauma is affecting them in their work life, or maybe just not even realizing that, but having trouble with their work life. I also wanted to go back to something we talked about at the very beginning, which is I recognize that there is a whole circular problem with trauma survivor under earning, being underemployed, not having the money to see a therapist and so on and so forth. And one of the things that I'm doing right now, especially because of the horrible trauma that's happened to people because of COVID. Losing their jobs, unceremoniously, not knowing what to do now.

And that's something that I think is actually like another conversation, but not knowing what to do and being really frightened. And if you're already a trauma survivor, this is expecially, especially triggering. And so at any rate, what I was going to say is that I have a sliding scale for people who are having a need, a financial need, and I'm really willing to discuss that with people.

And I would do work individually and I also work, as I said earlier over virtually right now, because I don't think it's safe to be in an office together. So does that answer your question?

Alyssa Scolari: [00:41:07] Absolutely. So if people are interested in learning more about you and the awesome things that you are doing, they can head over to your website, which is valerieashleycounseling.com.

Valerie Ashley: [00:41:21] And yep. And there's a contact page there, but you can also read about what I do and read more about it and read about my credentialing. I wanted to add one other thing. I'm also really open to training, so I've done trainings for therapists, especially therapists who works with domestic violence survivors, because that's another conversation too.

There's a whole host of issues around worklife for domestic violence survivors, but I'm really interested in training other therapists on how to use this work or how to recognize it when it's coming up with your clients. So that's another avenue that people might want to use me for.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:42:06] Awesome. And I will make sure that Valerie's website will be listed on the show notes when this episode airs. So you guys can just check out the show notes and go look at her website and learn more about her. And I think that's, it. I'm so happy you were able to come on today. I feel like we could have a million conversations about a million different topics, but I really appreciate you coming on today.

Valerie Ashley: [00:42:35] My pleasure really, it's been wonderful to talk with you and you're a great trauma therapist and I love the way you think about things. And yeah. Yeah. So thanks for having me.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:42:48] Thanks for listening everyone for more information about today's episode and to sign up for the light after trauma newsletter, head over to my website at alyssscolari.com.

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