Light After Trauma

Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing (EMDR) therapy can sound overwhelming at first, but Melissa Parks, LCSW, breaks everything down on this week's episode. She talks about the benefits of EMDR, expectations during the treatment process, and why she has developed such a passion for this type of therapy.

Find out more about Melissa:

Melissa on Instagram and TikTok

Website: Melissa Parks Therapy - Counseling Couples, Counseling Women

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Transcript:

Alyssa Scolari: [00:00:23]

Hey all what's up. Welcome to another episode of the Light After Trauma podcast. I'm your host, Alyssa Scolari. And we have here with us today, Melissa Parks. So you have Melissa and Alyssa, so it's going to be a good time. Melissa is an EMDR therapist, as well as a couples therapist. She is devoted to helping you stop the cycle of conflict in your relationships and to understand your nervous system in order to experience more joy, she has been using her expertise and her humor on social media to de-stigmatize mental health, you will often hear her use the phrase you make sense.

So just a quick side note, I found Melissa on Tik-Tok. She is a bomb Tik-Tok maker. I thoroughly enjoy watching all of your Tik-Tok. So when she says that she uses humor as part of her therapy, she is not kidding.

Her Tik-Toks are really funny and I really appreciate them. So, hi, Melissa. Welcome. And thank you for all that you do.

Melissa Parks: [00:01:56]

Hey, I'm so glad to be here. Thank you so much for having me. It's a true honor. I'm excited.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:02:01]

I'm so excited for you to be here and to talk about a topic that quite honestly, I don't really know a whole lot about. So this is going to be a major learning experience for me as well as a lot of the listeners. So would you be able to share a little bit more on like what you do, who you are and could you break down that like gigantic acronym?

That is EMDR.

Melissa Parks: [00:02:26]

Yes. Yes, absolutely. Well, like you so beautifully said, I am a therapist, a couples therapists, EMDR therapist. I do coaching. I do consultation. I do lots of things, but I treat clients in the state of South Carolina and I am so passionate about that. I came into the field and have been licensed for 17 years, and I still feel just as passionate, if not, even more passionate than I was when I first started, I really am on fire for all this stuff.

In terms of EMDR trauma-focused stuff, attachment focused stuff. It's just my favorite. It's just one of my favorite things. So I'm excited to be able to talk about this today to maybe help bridge the understanding for folks because you know, it can be kind of, you know, intimidating when you just, the acronym, like you said, is a little intimidating: Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing.

That's a mouthful.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:03:26]

Yes, it is.

Melissa Parks: [00:03:27]

It's like what is Well I'd love to take some time to explain some about it and then. Open up for questions. Definitely. But Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing is an evidence-based treatment model, which just means that it has extensive research and it's been proven .It has proven outcomes and way back when it was only used to treat trauma, but now we know that it can treat trauma, it can treat complex trauma, it can treat a myriad of issues, including distressing symptoms, like chronic depression, anxiety, just a whole host of things. So it's not just trauma.

And it's based on a model that theorizes that our current symptoms are a result of unprocessed memories from our past that are showing up in our present. So for example, the brain may have had an experience from the past and it was unable to integrate all the components of that experience. And so what happens is our amazing nervous system comes up for us to protect us, to keep us sane and it fragments that experience into pieces.

And that's what we see in our current day are those fragments of the experience as our symptoms. Overwhelming feelings, body sensations, whatever they are. That's what our symptoms are. That's what this EMDR model is based on. It's basically saying our past is in our present.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:05:04]

I gotcha. And when you say just to, and I don't mean to interrupt, I just had a quick thought, when you say unprocessed memories, do you mean repressed memories that are stored in our subconscious that haven't come to conscious, or could it be both, both repressed memories and suppressed memory. So things that we can recall, but just haven't really digested or integrated.

Melissa Parks: [00:05:29]

Right, right, right. I would say all the above, I would say all the above and when we're talking, you know, cause I would say all of us have unprocessed memories. So, I mean, we all do, but when it comes to trauma, that's a different story. When it comes to trauma, that's a little bit more in depth, a little bit more intense because with a trauma experience we have an experience that's too much, too soon, too much for too long or too little, for too long.

So think like neglect. And in those situations, the signals from the amygdala, the fear center of the brain are so much, are so intense that the top part of our brain, which usually down-regulates and helps soothe that fear is gone. And this experience causes the integrative functions in the brain to fail.

And so that's where we have that fragmenting that happens. So this is more of what, where I'm talking about the fragmented pieces as it relates to trauma. But yes, I think we all have unprocessed memories. The research talks about this and we learn about this when we're initially being trained in EMDR.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:06:43]

Wow. So, so what does that look like in practice? From what I understand, there's lots of, and this could just be one of my own myths or beliefs, there's lots of tapping that happens. Am I right on that one?

Melissa Parks: [00:07:01]

Yes, that's what EMDR is known for. But so before I go into that, which is really helpful. So with all that, I just said that, you know, we have these fragmented parts, these assimilated parts of a memory that are showing up in our present. This is why EMDR is so awesome because EMDR is a bottom up brain approach.

It's a treatment of association. So it helps us associate those dissociated parts. And when, I mean, by bottom up, so a lot of treatments out there spend a lot of time in that top part of our brain, which is our more sophisticated part of our brain, which holds more of our thinking stuff, the way that we rationalize.

And we think about things and those are helpful too. But if we have trauma. And if we have all these fragmented pieces that are coming up from our past, we can't think those away. Our body is taking over. And so EMDR comes to help us from the bottom part of the brain to help us associate those things and assimilate those things.

And this is why, you know, it's really important to just put that out there and recognize the impact of EMDR from that perspective, how it treats the brain and how we integrate in that way. But that's what EMDR is known for is the tapping, right. Or the eye movements.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:08:21]

That's what I've always heard. Yeah, I'm sure that's only part of it. Yeah. I do want to just say for the listeners out there, you all won't be able to see this, but as Melissa was saying that, you know, talking about bringing these essentially disassociated or disconnected parts and connecting them, she was almost interlacing her fingers, which I think is a really great portrayal of what you're trying to say, which is we're taking all of these pieces and we're integrating them. It is like the full integration of the brain from a bottom up approach instead of surface level down approach. If I'm understanding that correctly.

Melissa Parks: [00:09:01]

Yes, you are 100%. And I think it's important to also note here is that EMDR is like a resilience model, which means it believes that we have everything that we need to heal. The clinician is just sort of the conductor and whatnot, but it believes that we are all wired with resilience and that something got in the way, right.

Trauma, for example, got in the way and sort of rewired ourselves towards self protection instead of connection or these other things. But EMDR really operates out of this stance that you have what you need, and that resiliency is there and you are adaptive and we're going to work with all that, which is beautiful.

And why I particularly love this model and that it's so trauma-informed and resilience based.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:09:52]

Yeah, that's very empowering. Very empowering.

Melissa Parks: [00:09:55]

It is very much though. So with the bilateral stimulation is what you're talking about. So the tapping or the eye movements, that's only, you know, that's not an all eight phases of EMDR because this is an eight phase model. So we're doing. Yes. Yes. And some clients come in, when are we going to do EMDR? And I'll say, well, we've been doing it ever since you came in because you know, part of EMDR also involves case conceptualization, taking a history, doing a treatment plan, which we're not doing tapping or bilateral stimulation through that.

But that is typically what people think EMDR is moving the eyes and the tapping. And so I'm happy to talk about that piece because it is a pretty important piece. And it's probably what sort of separates EMDR from many of these other therapies,

Alyssa Scolari: [00:10:45]

Right, right. Because another therapies it's just primarily talk therapy unless you were doing, you know, neurofeedback or something of that sort. But...

Melissa Parks: [00:10:53]

RIght.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:10:54]

is more of like a, I don't know, it's like tapping into the brain. It sounds like.

Melissa Parks: [00:11:03]

No pun intended, right?

Alyssa Scolari: [00:11:05]

Right. I was going to say no pun intended, but pun fully intended, definitely tapping into the brain.

Melissa Parks: [00:11:11]

Yes. So treatment of EMDR really involves some procedures where number one, we are activating these old memories. By way of sensations, images, beliefs, feelings. So we want to activate that. And part of that involves this dual attention because we don't want to activate something like that and retraumatize you. We don't want to activate that and get you back into the memory where you're fully immersed in it, and it is overwhelming and it takes you outside of your window of tolerance.

That is not what we want to happen, but we want to activate that where we have one foot in that past issue. And then we also have one foot in the present day where you're in the office with the client and or with the clinician. So one foot in the past one foot in the present. So we're activating the memory with all of those components.

And then this is where we bring in the bilateral stimulation. And this is rhythmic side to side stimulation. Left ,right, left, right. And this is, by way of eye movements. So the clinician can wave their fingers in front of the eyes of the client that the eyes will pass the midline. We can use hand tapping.

I have little buzzers where they hold the little buzzers and it kind of buzzes back and forth. You can do tones in the ears, but either way it's stimulating left, right, left, right. And this activates and integrates information from both sides of the brain. And so we have full brain integration. So we're setting up a state for the system to do what we wanted it to do.

Back during the trauma, we're setting up a state for the system to bring those dissociated pieces together, associate them again in a safe way, and sometimes in a titrated way. Meaning we only take a little bit at a time because we don't want to overwhelm the client. And as a result, the old memory ends up being stored properly.

The components of the memory are now timestamped appropriately. Cause remember I said, our symptoms are the past and the present. Well now when we set up this state and we help the brain integrate. Those parts can say: "Oh, we belong back here when I was 10, we don't belong here when I'm 30 anymore."

So those old parts are now integrated (and) oriented to the correct time. And our distress is reduced about the whole situation. And we also take what is useful in terms of our thoughts about a memory, for example, It's over or unsafe now, or I am good ,or something. And then we can take that into our future and move forward.

The results of this are just quite amazing, but ultimately we set up this state and we let the nervous system do its thing.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:14:24]

That is absolutely fascinating.

Melissa Parks: [00:14:27]

I know I got chills when I talk about it, even though I've done it so many times. Cause it's just so cool.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:14:33]

Yes, your passion for it is palpable. And just, as I'm listening to you talk, I think it's such a beautiful description. I have had it explained to me so many times, and I have to be honest. I still am, like, after somebody explains it to me and I'm still like, okay, but I don't get it. The way that you're putting it is incredible because there are so many times that I will say to not only my patients who I treat, but also to myself when I'm triggered is "Okay, are these feelings about the past, or are these feelings about the present?" And what EMDR does is it sounds like it gives your brain and your nervous system, the ability to be like,"Nope, this belongs, you know, for the time that we were enduring the abuse. This is what belongs in the present. This is what we're going to take into the future."

Melissa Parks: [00:15:23]

That's right. That's right.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:15:26]

That is incredible.

Melissa Parks: [00:15:28]

Yes. Yes. And this is what our brain wanted to do at that time. Right. It really did, but it couldn't. It's wired to, because that's part of what the hippocampus does. The hippocampus is the integrating function of the brain, but it couldn't. Because things were too much, too soon, too fast, too little for too long.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:15:48]

Way too much to process.

Melissa Parks: [00:15:48]

All those too Yes Yes yes yes And so but how beautiful is it that for our survival and for our sanity it knew something else to do, to fragment these pieces. It's beautiful Like my gosh.

Our brains are incredible.

That's the part where I love too, is like, You know, instead of looking at it from the pathological lens, it's like, no, this is amazing that our nervous system protected us in this way. Just amazing.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:16:22]

I love that you are saying this because I have been on such a soap box lately about pathology and how much I loathe it entirely, which I understand, you know, we need the DSM for some things, which for the listeners out there, the DSM is the book with all of the mental health disorders. But I'm just right on board with you where so much of what we experience is a result of our brain, trying to protect us, which is actually so normal and not pathological.

Melissa Parks: [00:16:55]

That's right. Agreed. 100%.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:16:57]

I am so passionate, so passionate about that. I'll get off my soap box now. But I have to ask. So what sparked your passion to get into this field and specifically like the EMDR niche?

Melissa Parks: [00:17:16]

Well, I feel like, so I, you know, I'm thinking like way back when I, you know, went into school, but I feel like for a lot of us clinicians out there, there's some clinicians that go into it because it's in the family or that kind of thing. Like we know somebody close to us that is a therapist or...

I went in it to become more self-aware and to search for healing, because of my own childhood experiences and my own difficulties and my own trauma. And so that's probably, if I were to go right back to the brass tacks of it, of why I even started my journey towards becoming a therapist, that's where I would say it began.

And I can't discount....I feel like there's a spiritual component there because I went into college when I was an itty-bitty, you know, teenager. And so it's hard to imagine that my teenage brain was like, Oh, let's do all of this. And, you know, cause that's just not the case. My prefrontal cortex wasn't even completely developed.

So I feel like there's a spiritual component there for me, at least that there was a pathway for this for me, but I definitely had that passion to want to learn about myself and why I was the way I was and what was happening there. And then turning that around to:I want to help others.

I want to help others see, like we just said, this non-pathological lens that there is nothing wrong with you. In fact, you have done the best that you can. And so that's where a lot of my passion comes. And then probably in terms of, EMDR where I was first introduced to that. I was almost fresh out of grad school and my supervisor did EMDR.

Now, of course, this was like almost 20 years ago and EMDR has changed a little bit over the years. And so back then it was kind of like this like woo-woo sorta thing, but she just amazed me and the way that she saw these results with her clients. And so my interest was sparked way back then and I started learning little bits and pieces along the way.

And of course, once I had my own training and my certification and all that stuff, like, that was it. But I also have a love for attachment. So I'd also do couples therapy too. And that is why I also make attachment a huge part of my EMDR treatment as well. So I do a lot of attachment focused EMDR too.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:19:51]

You can incorporate EMDR in couples work as well?

Melissa Parks: [00:19:56]

Okay. I've not treated couples with both of them in the room with EMDR. I think there's probably, maybe some people that do that. But there have been times where I'm working with a couple and we realized that there are some things that are at play here that trace back to trauma that are really impeding our progress in order to create a secure bond.

And so in that case, we may branch off and do a little bit of EMDR for each or one of the components of the couple and then return.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:20:27]

Okay, that makes a lot of sense.

Melissa Parks: [00:20:31]

But when I say attachment focused EMDR, I'm talking a lot about people that have PTSD, so childhood trauma or developmental trauma, and we really need to bring in that attachment perspective to the EMDR work.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:20:46]

Yes, because it's almost, you know, if you do have complex PTSD, it is almost impossible. Nothing's impossible, but it is extremely, extremely difficult to be able to have a functional relationship when you have not worked through...

Melissa Parks: [00:21:02]

yeah. Yeah,

Alyssa Scolari: [00:21:03]

...the attachment. You know, even having been in my own treatment for... how many years now?

I don't know. Well, multiple years at this point, I still have those triggers that come up about abandonment. And so I can only imagine.

Melissa Parks: [00:21:20]

Rection. Yeah absolutely. Yes.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:21:26]

Rejection in what I think other people might feel are just like the silliest ways. That's like, well, what do you mean you're going to go play video games with your friends?

Melissa Parks: [00:21:35]

And there it is the past and the present. Right? There it is.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:21:43]

So EMDR I have heard, and maybe you can speak a little bit on this. Somebody had mentioned it in one of my previous podcasts, and then I've had a couple of colleagues talk about this, that it can be a very, very exhausting process.

So can you speak a little bit on that? Like how is it draining? Why so draining? What are your thoughts on that?

Melissa Parks: [00:22:10]

Yeah, I have plenty of clients that will say to me, I have to clear my schedule after our session and or creating our next appointment time, I want to make sure that I'm doing it where I have nothing for the rest of the day. I mean, this can be a common experience. And then often, you know, if I have somebody that comes in that has something to do in that afternoon, we might really talk about whether or not we want to go into that...

...Phase Four, which is the desensitization using the bilateral stimulation because yeah, it can be draining. I mean, I think just the thought of going back into an experience and going back into an experience that our body and our system tries so hard not to, I mean, that alone kind of like speaks to probably the reasons why you might feel so drained afterward.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:23:03]

Yes cause you are having to actively revisit your trauma. So I suppose that speaks to the importance that like the decision to pursue EMDR is not a decision that one should make sort of like Willy nilly. Like I have 95 other thousand things going on in my life right now. But I'm going to jump into EMDR.

Like not a good idea.

Melissa Parks: [00:23:30]

Yes. Yes. And I would also say that sometimes can be par for the course, but also knowing that if we've spent a lot of time in Phase Two, which is the preparation phase, this is where we're setting ourselves up for how do we deal with the aftermath of this so that we're not pushed out of our window of tolerance after our session.

We know. Okay,, I know some things that I can do to help regulate my nervous system. If I start to feel myself kind of getting amped up again or things I can do to help contain it, if I feel triggered and, or sort of distract myself in a healthy way, that's not dissociative or we're working with the parts that might come up and we have identified things that we can do in the event that afterward we do feel really drained or we do fear feel really triggered.

And so that can make a huge difference.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:24:27]

Yes, setting up a before plan and after plan, making sure that the safety and all of the tools are put in place.

Melissa Parks: [00:24:40]

That's right. That's right. Cause you know, we really have to, we really have to recognize the importance of, and the nature of this work. We are treating very vulnerable parts within the client and we want to really focus on the importance of that and the sensitivity of that. We do not want to re-traumatize or we don't want to you know, so it's really important for the clinician to, you know, take a really good history to really assess the client for all of these things that could potentially be problematic and to empower the client to set up skills if needed, like all of this stuff should be done on the forefront.

So it's not all up to the client to say, "Oh, well, I shouldn't choose this" because there are things that we can do together to make sure that in the event it is draining or it is triggering. You can still feel like you have agency over yourself and over the situation.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:25:41]

I think that what you're saying is so important because it also speaks to I think the significance of finding a therapist who is well equipped to be able to see you through this process. You know, this is not something that you want to walk in. Unfortunately, I do have two clients now who I've ended up seeing after walking into a therapist's office who is certified in EMDR and during the first session, they went into the bilateral stimulation,

Melissa Parks: [00:26:19]

That's Yeah. Yep. You got it.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:26:21]

They did that the first session, the first time meeting this person, and as a result, were really, really unraveled is the word I'm lookin for.

Melissa Parks: [00:26:30]

Oh, sure. For sure. It's concerning to say the least. I'm so sorry that that happened for your client because essentially what that also does too, is the client is not sort of, I don't want to say shutdown, but if the session isn't closed down properly and or if they are pushed outside of their window of tolerance, It's not repaired.

It's not corrected. What does that do? That confirms that old experience that you are not safe. And as a result, like I said, kind of an experience of retraumatization and that is really unfortunate. That's really unfortunate.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:27:07]

Yeah, I think that is very unfortunate and that is not the norm. You know, that is what I'm hearing you say.

Melissa Parks: [00:27:15]

I would hope so. I would hope so.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:27:18]

Right. We hope and pray that that's not the norm. It is important, what I hear you say, to be able to establish that rapport with the client, to be able to do a full assessment, to be able to create a sense of safety so that the vulnerability can be there so that the healing process and the integration can begin.

Melissa Parks: [00:27:41]

So there's things that the client can do, certainly. And when I'm hearing you kind of talk about...the client can ask the questions upfront. When searching for a therapist, the client can find someone that they feel comfortable with. Do like a consultation maybe, and ask the questions. What kind of clients do you treat?

What is your specialty? I'm not going to go if I have attachment trauma and I'm an adult and I'm struggling with my current relationships. I might not go to somebody who does EMDR, specially only with maybe children. For example, I would want to know that they've worked with adults with PTSD. So, you know, finding out what are you specialize in.

What are your advanced trainings? How long have you been doing this? Are you trained or are you certified? Asking those questions, but ultimately, you know, a lot of this lies on the clinician. And their expertise and their ability to, like I said, get a good assessment. Conceptualize the client's case, attunement t is huge because...

Alyssa Scolari: [00:28:47]

What do you mean by that?

Melissa Parks: [00:28:48]

I might come in as a client, gung-ho, saying, "I want to do this EMDR stuff."

"I love it so much. I'm ready." And yet the next session, another part of them comes out that is terrified. And sort of step in the presence of the room and is terrified. And yet, instead of asserting, "Hey, I'm scared about this," sort of just uses people-pleasing behaviors with the therapist and the therapist is not attuned to these little shifts of maybe a client's presentation or body movements or tone of voice or anything like that, and just runs with it.

Again, we're at the risk of retraumatization or creating an unsafe experience. The clinician's level of attunement is so key and being able to, like I said, taking that full history, Oh, you know what? This client has used fawning, for example, which is like extreme people-pleasing in their relationships in the past.

I want to note that for myself, I want to make sure that I'm watching for this in our sessions in the future. Because even if I ask a question, "Would you like to talk about this? "They're going to say "Yeah" all the time, because they fawn and so attunement is so huge, huge, huge, and that's on the clinician and their ability to do that.

That's not the client's responsibility because a client who fawns is never going to say,"I'm feeling like I want to people-please, you right now." They're never going to say that.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:30:22]

No, they're just going to do it. That's part of their trauma response, especially when they're activated.

Melissa Parks: [00:30:27]

That's right?

Alyssa Scolari: [00:30:29]

So this is a lot in a very heavy process for both the client and the clinician.

Melissa Parks: [00:30:38]

Yes. It's a dance.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:30:41]

Do you ever find that it's exhausting for you as the clinician?

Melissa Parks: [00:30:48]

It could potentially be, but I have good supervision. I think the best clinicians, even the ones that are, you know, have all the certifications in the world get supervision. And so I get supervision and so I have a place to bring my stuff and I have pretty good self care. I also, you know, do things behind the scenes, like structure my day appropriately.

I do not have a huge caseload because of not only the nature of the clients that I see, the majority I'm doing EMDR or couples work, couples work is also very intense because you would have two nervous systems in the room with you.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:31:24]

Yes.

Melissa Parks: [00:31:25]

You're trying to navigate that. So I do not see a ton of people.

All of that really, I have learned, sets me up to not feel that burnout or that exhaustion.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:31:36]

You've learned how to take really good care of yourself.

Melissa Parks: [00:31:39]

Yeah. But there's days, you know, cause I'm a human

Alyssa Scolari: [00:31:42]

Of course, therapists are human too.

Melissa Parks: [00:31:45]

Right.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:31:47]

Absolutely. But I love the comment that you said about having supervision, because my supervisor says this all the time, which is every good clinician has a great mentor, therapist, et cetera.

Melissa Parks: [00:32:05]

Good. Yes. You need to go to therapy too. I'm a believer in that.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:32:09]

Yes. I love my therapist.

Yup. Yep. Now there's also been some myths, I think about EMDR that it's sort of this like, cure all. So could you speak on that? Like, and I guess maybe this is different for every person, but what is the length of the process and then like, how do you know that you've gotten to a point where like EMDR is no longer needed or is it a lifelong process?

Melissa Parks: [00:32:42]

I wouldn't say lifelong, but I think it's not a magic thing. It's not magic or a cure-all fix-all kind of thing. No, no, no, no, no, definitely not. But I do think that it can be helpful. Like I said almost all of my individuals that I see I'm doing EMDR with because we have to remember EMDR is not just about the Phase Four desensitization piece.

Sometimes with some clients I'm just using resource tapping, which is basically strengthening positive things that they bring into session. To strengthen a positive neural network in their brain. So if someone comes in and says, "Oh, I was a good mom this week, I had such good interactions with my kids."

I'll say "You want to tap that in? That sounds like it's really important. Like we really want to strengthen that."

Alyssa Scolari: [00:33:32]

I saw you make a Tik-Tok about that.

Melissa Parks: [00:33:34]

That's right. That's part of EMDR too. That's resource tapping and that's a component of EMDR too. And so if we're not doing all eight phases, it's still EMDR. And so I look at it from that perspective.

In terms of really targeting a trauma or a series of traumas, if it's complex PTSD, it could take a long time. The research says that EMDR is more of a shorter model than say some other like traditional talk therapies, but I'd hate to put a timeline on it. I mean, I've, I've seen people that have single incident traumas and we've done maybe eight sessions, ten sessions, twelve sessions, and they actually feel like this is so helpful. I'm good now. Thank you. Bye. And that's been great, but typically I'm working with people with complex trauma and we're in it for the long haul.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:34:32]

Okay. I was just going to say, it sounds more to me like EMDR is a treatment approach, like in its entirety and not something that you decide like...

Melissa Parks: [00:34:47]

Yes, you get it.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:34:49]

Does that make sense?

Melissa Parks: [00:34:50]

Yes. That is exactly how I use it. And how I don't look at it as just an intervention.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:34:57]

Right? Like it's not a supplement therapy. It is a treatment modality.

Melissa Parks: [00:35:02]

That is exactly how I approach it and how I incorporate it into my practice. And not everybody is like this. I mean, some clinicians are just trained in it and they just use it here or there occasionally, but that's not how I roll. And maybe it's just because I'm in love with it all, but yeah. I really use it as how a lens that I see my clients through because of all the components of it that we talked about in the beginning, based on the model that the past is in the present, the resiliency aspect of it, the bottom up approach.

That's how I see my clients through that lens. And this is why this works for me in terms of a modality. So yes, that's right. It's not just an intervention to me.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:35:46]

Yeah, this is a treatment lens for you. Which I think is potentially why I bet you have so much success because the treatment of trauma really is recovery is a lifelong process, especially when it comes to trauma survivors. So I would imagine that if we're coining anything in some like eight week or twelve week intervention, it's not going to be as effective.

Melissa Parks: [00:36:09]

Right. Right. Agreed.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:36:12]

I love it. I learned so much about EMDR. This actually makes me want to, I don't know. This makes me definitely want to explore more.

Melissa Parks: [00:36:21]

Nice.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:36:22]

And so I have to ask because your Tik-Toks are amazing. How did you...

Melissa Parks: [00:36:31]

I get a little...I'm laughing cause I can get my sense of humor can come out there. I can have a little too much fun on there.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:36:38]

They're sofunny. I love them. I show them to my husband.

Melissa Parks: [00:36:43]

Give me an Office audio, and I will roll with it. I will make it into something. I just love The Office. And if there's any audio on The Office, it's happening, it's going down.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:36:53]

It's going down. I love it so much. How did you get into, like, how did you decide like, Oh, this is what I'm going to do.

Melissa Parks: [00:37:03]

well, I've been on Instagram a few years probably, and I just decided to take the leap.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:37:09]

Making those Tik-Toks at the rate that you put them out has got to be a second full-time job for you. I feel like they're hard.

Melissa Parks: [00:37:16]

Well, they are, I'm pretty, I'm slightly, not slightly. I'm pretty aware of like, not aware, but I can work my phone pretty good. And I'm not doing like major edits, so they don't take me too long. But I think it's just my, I think it's my imagination. I hear something like a sound or, and I'm like, Oh my gosh, this fits so perfectly with this.

Or this is how a couple would react or this is what would happen in the brain and how the brain would talk to each other like that. It just comes to me with hearing these sounds.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:37:47]

Yeah. It's like, it seems looking at your profile and your content, very much of a creative outlet for you. And I would guess a way to also spread awareness.

Melissa Parks: [00:38:01]

That's right. And I cannot tell you how many emails or messages I've received saying "Because of you. I decided to find a therapist" or "Because of you. I feel like I make sense. And I'm going to talk more about what's happening with my therapist" or" just because of you..." and that gives me fire and motivation to just keep going for sure.

You know, I'm going to kind of change up how we see ourselves, how we see mental health and that's important.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:38:32]

and you are doing that and you very much send the message on your content, on all of your platforms. Cause I believe I also follow you on Instagram that it's not what's wrong with you. It's what happened to you.

Melissa Parks: [00:38:48]

Yes.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:38:50]

And I love that you put that vibe out there.

Melissa Parks: [00:38:52]

Yeah. Yeah. Thank you.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:38:54]

So healing.

Melissa Parks: [00:38:56]

Yeah, thank you.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:38:57]

So your Tik-Tok is...what's your Tik-Tok username?

It's melissa_parks_says, right.

Melissa Parks: [00:39:06]

No, just melissaparkssays, all one (word) and it's the same for my Instagram: melissaparkssays

Alyssa Scolari: [00:39:12]

and then you have a website as well, right?

Melissa Parks: [00:39:15]

Yeah, the website, it is for my therapy practice. That's melissaparkstherapy.com. And yeah, I'll be doing some things in terms of more of that coaching piece, probably more towards summertime, and I'll be opening up some opportunities for EMDR therapists that want to be certified to do some consultation under me if they want to.

So that would be important to maybe find me on social media for that. And I'm looking at some potentially courses or some kind of like membership sites so that people can work with me outside of that therapy treatment perspective. And of course, that's only for those that do not need the structure of therapy.

That's very important to make sure that we delineate that.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:40:08]

Ooo, you have some exciting things coming up in your future.

Melissa Parks: [00:40:12]

Yeah.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:40:14]

I'm excited for you. Oh, that's so fun. Well, I will link all of your socials on the show notes. So to all the listeners out there, you will know exactly where it should go to find more of Melissa's amazing content. Thank you for breaking down the scary beast that is EMDR, because it has really been quite frightening to me, but I feel like I have a really good grasp on it now.

And it's not so scary.

Melissa Parks: [00:40:46]

I'm so glad. I'm so glad. And of course I'd be open to any and all questions for clarifying anything further. I'd be happy to come on again or whatever. It's been such a joy. So thank you for having me.

Owen Morgan opens up about his repressed memories of childhood abuse and his recovery journey. He expresses gratitude for his pain, as it ultimately led to him to fall in love with what it means to be human. Owen is now the host of a successful podcast, The Awareness Space, where he continues to dive into the human experience with people all over the globe.

Check out Owen's incredible work: https://www.theawarenessspace.com Instagram: The Awareness Space #Podcast (@the_awareness_space)

Check out the Light After Trauma website for transcripts, other episodes, Alyssa's guest appearances, and more at: www.lightaftertrauma.com

Want to get more great content and interact with the show? Check us out on Instagram: @lightaftertrauma

We need your help! We want to continue to make great content that can help countless trauma warriors on their journey to recovery. So, please help us in supporting the podcast by becoming a recurring patron of the show via Patreon. Every bit helps!

Transcript:

Alyssa Scolari [00:00]:

Hey all. We did it. We hit 4,000 downloads on the podcast. Thank you so very much, and as promised, we are doing a giveaway. This time, we have not one giveaway, but two giveaways. Our dear friend Sheri from the I Would Love That shop on Etsy has donated two different types of mugs for the giveaway. One is called the Cup of Courage. It's absolutely adorable, as is the other one, which is the Worry Monster Mug. If you are a coffee drinker, a tea drinker, a mug collector, you're going to love this.

If you want to check out pictures, head on over to either my Facebook page or my Instagram page. Instagram is alyssa_scolari_lpc. There you can find the specifics of what you need to do to be entered in the giveaway. It's pretty simple. I just ask that you leave a written review on the podcast, and then you can simply DM me or leave a comment on my post and just say that you want to be entered into the giveaway. There is also the date on my social media of when I will be picking a winner. I believe it is Monday, March 8th. So head on over, check it out. And as always, thank you so, so much for your support.

Hello, everybody. Happy Tuesday. It is Wednesday when we are recording this, but it will be Tuesday, March 2nd when this is released. Welcome to another episode of Light After Trauma podcast. This is episode 31. I am your host, Alyssa Scolari. And I have here with us today very special guest Owen Morgan. Owen is a wellbeing advocate, podcast host, and coach in training. He is passionate about exploring what self-awareness is and how we can use it to heal, transform, and live a life more fully. Owen has worked as a personal trainer and massage therapist for 10 years. He has also interviewed over 500 people on chat shows and podcasts, including therapists, coaches, advocates, and people with true stories of wellbeing recovery.

Owen has a history of childhood trauma, severe anxiety, and had a life-threatening illness. He hosts The Awareness Space podcast and is a video creator at the Awareness Reel. Owen truly believes in hope after trauma, which is something that I think just emanates and radiates from you, is this hope and this passion that you have for life after trauma and the hope that can come.

So, welcome on the show, Owen.

Owen Morgan [03:13]:

Thank you so much for that. It's such an honor to be with you. I listen to your show religiously every week at work. I listened to literally two episodes last night. I love it so much. And I was like, "Oh my god, I'm going to be on it tomorrow! I'm so excited."

Alyssa Scolari [03:24]:

And I love your show as well. I was on Owen's podcast, The Awareness Space. If you have not heard it, you need to. It's something you 1000% need in your life because it feels like a warm cup of tea after a long day. So I really like to put on my headphones and just listen to the amazing episodes that you have. You have some really fantastic guests, and you're a phenomenal interviewer. So, I am really happy to have you here.

You do a lot. I don't know how you manage all of this, and then also have another job as well. Can you talk a little bit about what takes up the most time? What are you most passionate about of all the things that you do?

Owen Morgan [04:14]:

Yeah, thank you. I sometimes don't know how I do it. People are like, "How are you putting out so much content whilst working full-time and being a dad?" I'm like, "It's just one thing at a time, isn't it? You just focus on the one thing." I've just had a load of video work coming my way, paid video work for clients. I'm so excited. I'm really wanting to push that. And that has to take priority. That is going to pay the bills. Oh, hang on a minute. This is actually quite intense, because that video is now taking over my ability to edit my podcast. It's, again, one step at a time. I've burnt out five or six times in the last three or four years, full-on burnout, chronic fatigue level. I don't learn. This time, I certainly am going to learn. And just remember that all I can focus on today was the podcast this morning, chatting with you. I'll edit a bit of the video and then go to see my step-son. And that's it. That's all I can do.

We only get overwhelmed because we feel like we need to be attending to lots of things. Whereas if I just say, "Well, I have this today, and what can I fit in?" And I guess that's it, really. And the podcast side of things, as you know, is very time-consuming. By the time you've interviewed people, and done post-production, and edited, because I don't have anyone to do it for me, it's surprising, isn't it? But this job I got isn't forever. It's only because of COVID. So once COVID is finished, I can crack on with what I love the most.

Alyssa Scolari [05:30]:

Yes. And what is it that you love the most?

Owen Morgan [05:34]:

People, full stop. No, I absolutely, absolutely adore talking to humans, meeting humans. And my favorite bit is actually building bonds. I really love it, how many friends I've made out of this. And I can just message them whenever I need help, or they need me. And I think it's so beautiful when you meet someone for the first time. I wonder where this is going to go? And then they become really good friends. And it's so special. So that, plus sharing our messages together is always going to be my passion. My partner said to me the other day, she goes, "Do you think you're going to podcast forever? It feels like you never get bored of it." I said, "Yeah, probably. I get to about 90, I'll be doing some kind of pensioner podcast about men's pensioner health or something." I never get bored of it, so I just feel so blessed I found something. Not everybody does, do they, find that thing?

Alyssa Scolari [06:22]:

Yes.

Owen Morgan [06:23]:

Yeah, talking to humans and sharing their wisdom, that's what I love.

Alyssa Scolari [06:27]:

Yeah. And you do. Again, that's just something that absolutely radiates from you. It's just this love that you have for the entire human experience.

Owen Morgan [06:36]:

Definitely. Plus, everybody compares me to a warm cup of tea, for some reason. People keep saying that. So I'm like, do I need to brand that somehow? Do some merch or something?

Alyssa Scolari [06:45]:

So I'm not the only one? Everybody keeps-

Owen Morgan [06:47]:

You're not. It's a British thing. Actually, I feel very lucky that I'm British, because our accent seems to really set all of the nationalities on fire. They love it. So I'm like, yes, British accent! Thank god for that.

Alyssa Scolari [07:00]:

1000%. I'm glad that you brought that up, because in the back of my head, every time I hear one of your voice messages, I say to my husband, I'm like, "David, it's Owen! Come listen to his voice!"

Owen Morgan [07:15]:

That's hilarious.

Alyssa Scolari [07:15]:

Yes. It's the accent. It's phenomenal. And I have to imagine, when I'm speaking, can you tell that I have a very strong American accent?

Owen Morgan [07:27]:

That's what I love about all the different versions of the American accent and Australia as well. It's much more animated, I guess. It's much more colorful and Disney-like, if that makes sense, and I really like that. I do kind of long to have the accent too, but I'll stick with what I've got, I think, for now.

Alyssa Scolari [07:44]:

Oh yes. Oh yeah. I think your accent is way, way, way better. So, we digress. I would be doing myself a disservice if I didn't talk about the accent. So tell me how you got into this type of field. How did you develop a passion for this? I know a little bit from what we talked about when I was a guest on your show. But if you wouldn't mind sharing.

Owen Morgan [08:06]:

Yeah. Well, I think for me, a big part of this journey, all of the trauma that I had when I was younger, and how that then manifested in mental health problems in my 20s, and then how that manifested in me needing to sort it out and discover what was going on. And then by doing that, I think then it ignited this passion for learning about human experience. So I think the moment I realized that I had major issues with what I was going through, and wanting to learn about the brain and the nervous system and everything, that opened up a whole opportunity for me to discover more. And that's when I got really hooked into loving learning about that. And then because of that, I then just built, built, built to where we are today with the podcast.

But there's no way I would have just learnt that and went straight into podcasting. I love it. It was a 15-year journey, which is really, really great. But if I didn't have all the traumas, you're fully aware, it wouldn't lead to the opportunities I have today. So I have to thank my trauma for guiding me in a direction that probably makes me even more connected and aligned to myself than somebody without trauma. So I look with gratitude for all the "bad stuff" in inverted commas that have happened.

Alyssa Scolari [09:14]:

Yes. And so what I hear you saying is you actually didn't realize that you even had a history of trauma until you were in your 20s.

Owen Morgan [09:24]:

Yeah. 27 was when I discovered that I was abused as a six-year-old. And I was like, "Holy shit. Okay, right. Oh! Everything's starting to make sense now, why I'm so depressed all the time, and blacking out, and claps of anxiety." I think back now, the beginning, my intro, you said about anxiety, it's like, wow, I haven't had anxiety for five years, six years. I can't believe I used to have it so badly. And now I can't remember what it even feels like. I mean, how is that not an example of hope, right?

Alyssa Scolari [09:54]:

Yes, yes. It's the best example of hope, to not even be able to identify with who you were back then, because it feels worlds apart. And you had mentioned, I know this about you because we'd discussed it on your podcast, your memory is the one thing that we have in common. Well, we have many things in common. But the one thing we have in common that I think is really special is your memories of your abuse were repressed.

Owen Morgan [10:26]:

Yeah, I just wanted to quickly mention, like you said, you have similar experiences. And I have interviewed so many people who've got the same experiences. And people say, "That can't be a thing. You can't just not remember stuff." I'm like, "I've interviewed enough people to say that's definitely a thing," and how your body, literally, and your mind just go, "Nope, this is way too overwhelming. I think I'm just going to lock this in a cupboard somewhere for another day." And that's totally what happened for you, what's happened for me. And it's just the most terrifying but most liberating thing ever when you're like, "Ah, right. Okay. Yeah, this woman, she was disregular, and she was really, really taking it out on me." And I was able to then say that it wasn't my fault, and there's nothing with me. I'm not broken. That's powerful, isn't it?

Alyssa Scolari [11:12]:

It's the most powerful thing. The most powerful thing. But I don't think it always starts out that way. So when you first started to have the memories surface, was it more of a, "Is this real? How did I contribute to this? Am I making this up?" Did you have those types of thoughts?

Owen Morgan [11:35]:

Yes and no. Because all of it was done under hypnotherapy. I think it was a slightly different story, because the first thing I ever tried was hypnotherapy, so I was under hypnosis. It was about 10 sessions. But the deeper I went in, the more I went into my subconscious and explored down there with an amazing guide that did it with me, it was like a black and white film. It was very surreal. It was like, was that me? But it was literally black and white. I don't know why I remember it. I just remember it wasn't in color. It was really weird. But I remembered this visceral sensation of being in this room at a table. And I remember, it's really specific. It was a piece of beef that was really fatty. It's so specific, the memory. And then remember wanting to vomit, but then remember it being shoved into my mouth and stuff, pushed, punched into my mouth.

And it was like, "This is a really weird memory if it's mine. It's very visceral." And then remembering hiding that piece of meat under a piece of carpet behind this little cabinet thing, chest of drawer thing. It's too specific a creation to not have some resonance to it. And it was then, I was like, "Oh my god, I remember this child-minder when I was six and seven I used to go to after school. And she was just, whatever's going on for her, whatever trauma's she's been through, on reflection, I was getting full-on abused on that, through force-feeding, being, I realized recently, locked in cupboards. I realized I had certain memories of being stuck under a staircase. It's that kind of stuff, because I was naughty or I'd been bad. Which is why now, whenever, still to this day, if I miss up or do something I'm perceiving as wrong, I go straight into my gut and have this sense of dread, this really overwhelming sense of dread.

I think about it now, and it's really affecting me. It's like this final piece of the puzzle for me I'm going to work with a therapist or coach going forward with, because she obviously was full-blown teaching me a lesson for getting things wrong or not eating my dinner by locking me in a cupboard or whatever. So no wonder I've got a complex about getting things wrong. I think someone's going to attack me if I get something wrong. And to this day, it rears its head every now and again in trigger format. And I think that's a really important lesson. It's slow, steady, and safe. It takes time, doesn't it, to integrate and complete these experiences as a kid.

Alyssa Scolari [13:51]:

Yes. It takes so much time to even recognize that you're having that response, and then to recognize where it comes from, and then to have to do the work to regulate your nervous system and to retrain your brain, so to speak, to have to say, "I don't need to be ready for a fight. I'm not going to be locked in a cupboard for this, or this isn't what's happening," because your body just automatically goes right back to that place.

Owen Morgan [14:21]:

Yeah, totally. And just to touch on what you said there, a really important message, is the quaff with our memories. We can't always 100% believe them. Sometimes memories change over time, and our perception changes, the storyline changes a little bit. So it's like you said, how can we deeply connect to the memories being this visceral, real thing and not something that we're creating? That's the hard part, I think, is knowing the difference. I don't know how that looks, really, to be honest with you. You just have to be intuitive, don't you?

Alyssa Scolari [14:48]:

Yes. And it's ironic that you're bringing that up, because I found myself speaking about this with somebody yesterday, a friend of mine, and just saying, when it comes to trauma, the one thing that I have learned, and I think this is so important, is that the specifics of the memories and the specifics of the trauma, don't necessarily matter. Not to say that your story or anybody else's story doesn't matter and isn't important. It's that we don't need to remember A to Z to know that horrible things happened to us, because our emotions and our physiological responses to present-day things are enough for us to know that we endured some really dark stuff. Does that make sense?

Owen Morgan [15:42]:

Yeah, I think it's important to remember. And [inaudible 00:15:46] terms, the body has kept the score. A lot of it's trapped in your body. And that's not something you can really articulate with words a lot of the time. It's in your body, and if you tune in and listen enough, you'll know that there's something about your body that's crying out to be held, to be soothed out, to be integrated. And it's just tuning in and listening, isn't it? But you have to be held, don't you, by someone who makes you feel safe. Without that, then it's very difficult to access, isn't it, I suppose.

Alyssa Scolari [16:11]:

This is one of my favorite things that I've heard you say in your podcast, and you said it when we recorded, is like, this idea of being held. Could you talk a little bit more about that? It really resonates with me very deeply.

Owen Morgan [16:27]:

Yeah. Well, as a self-confessed addict to hugging, I'm very aware of what it is to hold and to be held. And COVID has absolutely sucked. I haven't been able to hug anybody. In any workplace that I join, within the first two months, I probably would have hugged most members of the staff in a very safe way, to be clear. And it's just been so funny. At this workplace, I'm like, "This is weird. This is against my nature, to build bonds and make sure everyone's okay. That's what I do."

But anyway, back to your point about being held, it's come to me. Because the more people I interview and the more stories I hear of a therapeutic healing journey, the more I'm just seeing the common denominator being the key thing every single time. And in previous companies that I've run, I ran a global company for a while I hardly ever talked about called World Health Heroes, and it was about getting therapists to help people with low income and have to work through illness to have access to therapy.

Alyssa Scolari [17:16]:

Oh wow.

Owen Morgan [17:17]:

Because it's a big passion of mine. Even as a massage therapist, I get so annoyed that I can't help lots of people with not much money, because I need to live. And it is a real disparity there. It feels like you can only get super, super healthy if you have money. And it doesn't feel right to me. So anyway, I ran a company for a while doing that with therapists all over the world, and that was in previous times. But we helped numerous people. It was six people with ME and fibromyalgia. And they all picked someone different, someone they resonated picked. I think one had a spiritual counselor. One had EMDR. One had psychotherapy. Another one had more body work, breath work practices, a coach who did that. So they all went to see different people.

And all of them either had a marked improvement in symptoms, and some of them completely overcame it through that. And that obviously felt so special to me, because I had funded that, so it felt really special. But the point was, I was like, okay, six different modalities. They've all seen an improvement or complete healing on it. So what does that tell you? Resonate with a therapist, the therapist held them in a sense of safety, deeply listened. They were seen, heard, and understood. So when I talk about being held, it's being held in a space that you are going to be seen, heard, understood unconditionally, and the person will deeply listen to and acknowledge your existence without, "Oh, you poor thing" and all that kind of stuff. More, "I've got you and I'm going to help you discover within yourself the healing qualities that you innately have."

And I think held, rather than just being seen as something, held as in hugged or whatever, it's this seen, heard, understood aspect. That's what held means to me. I think when you are seen deeply like that by another human being, you may be ready to process some of these traumas you've had. But it's hard to say how to find that person. I think you just have to get out and try and discover them for yourself.

Alyssa Scolari [19:14]:

And do you think that it is just one person? When you talk about being held, do you think that it's just the therapist that does the holding, so to speak, or do you think there needs to be more than one person, we need to have a community of people that are holding us through processing our trauma?

Owen Morgan [19:39]:

Yeah, totally. Professionally or in a more personal sense, I think it's important to know that different people can play a different held role. But I think the concept's the same. They still need to see you, hear you, and a willingness to understand you. So that could be your partner for the first time maybe to meet the needs that your parents never did. That's slightly different. That's quite healing. But also professionally to deal with trauma [inaudible 00:20:03]. But for me personally, after hypnotherapy, I needed to move on from him. I needed to then work with somebody else that was more somatically trained, for example. I did an LP after that, so I worked with somebody really top down, and then I worked to bottom up.

But I think it's hard to say how those steps look. But for me, I've had six, seven people who deeply saw me and have gotten me to where I am today, or at least given me the resources to see myself how they saw me. And I've met some people that didn't hold me well at all. That's not because they were bad. It was because they weren't right. And on some level, sometimes they triggered me. That's the only time I would say maybe they should have thought a bit more deeply about working with me, because they accidentally triggered me. But hey, we're human. We make mistakes. But yeah, I've had six or seven people, is the answer to your question.

Alyssa Scolari [20:54]:

No. Well, all of that is so important. It's very helpful for our listeners to hear that. I too have had therapists who have not been able to hold me and have done more harm than good, not necessarily because they're bad, but because they did not have the tools that they needed to be able to help me. So I think that that's a really important thing for people to hear, and I say this often, is that if you have one experience with a therapist, for all the listeners out there, and it doesn't go well, and you find yourself deeply triggered, that does not mean that there are not other people out there who can't hold you in the way that you are needing to be held.

Owen Morgan [21:33]:

No, totally. I think it's a bit like dating for me, really. You go out there and-

Alyssa Scolari [21:37]:

Yes!

Owen Morgan [21:37]:

... you go on a first date, and you're like, "They're great, and they're really lovely, but I can't quite feel a spark." But in this case, the connection. I just see it as dating, really. Go out there and find a therapist that matches your needs, really.

Alyssa Scolari [21:48]:

Absolutely. It is like dating. It's dating. Sometimes I compare it to clothes shopping, right, trying to find that right pair of pants that fits. It can be tough, but it's not something to ever give up on, because you could have different healers in your life based on your needs throughout your recovery journey.

One of the things that I wanted to ask you is, how did you transition from being in a place of having these memories come back to you during your hypnotherapy to then saying, okay, I'm going to take this and I'm going to create this empire, if you would call it, The Awareness Space, and I am going to discover, you have this on your website, which is something I love, this concept of Awareness 5. Am I saying that correctly?

Owen Morgan [22:46]:

Yes, Awareness 5, yes.

Alyssa Scolari [22:47]:

How did you create that?

Owen Morgan [22:52]:

Oh, it was quite a journey. What am I, 37 now, so it's been 10 years. Like I said, it started with the spark of wanting to learn about human experience. I know not everybody has that. You just want to go for the healing, work through everything they've been going through, and then crack on with whatever they were doing before, and that's great too. But I think sometimes once you're in that, it's hard to get out, when you start learning about, oh my god, this is so cool.

And in school, I really struggled to learn. I had so much bullying, and I just hated school. I was terrified of being attacked after school every day. So it wasn't a great place to learn. I think I was trying to catch up with that too. But my point is that the lust for learning is what got me through those 10 years. And actually, I started to outgrow the things I was learning. I was like, "Okay, yeah. I get that. That's cool. I get the cognitive side. I get the top down stuff. Brilliant. I'm starting to learn what each section of the brain does. That's cool. And the body, personal training, massage." But then the more I got into it, I was like, but how does the body play a part?

And I started discovering that, reading books. So really, it's just as simple as I've grown as I've learned to then be where I am today and wanting to have these conversations. And I always think, who am I? Classic impostor syndrome. Who am I to sit here on a podcast with no coaching qualifications and no therapy qualifications, thinking I can sit here and talk about what it is to be human. But then the more I look back at the episodes and listen, I'm like, god, I know quite a bit, actually.

Alyssa Scolari [24:14]:

You do.

Owen Morgan [24:15]:

Conceptually, I know quite a lot, and experientially, I'm getting there. So I think it's really important that we don't beat ourselves up about, if we've got a message to share, which I think pretty much everybody does, get out there and share it. And that's why the podcast world now is so amazing, that anybody that wants to share something that means something to them can just do it now. It's so amazing. You don't have to get a TV contract or be on the radio. It's just so exciting. And I wish I had a more exciting than "I just learned and grew," but that is what happened, really.

And the more people I met, the more I felt held by peers and people in the same community as me. And now I feel like I'm invincible because I'm surrounded with, well, people such as yourself, who I know will be there for me, and I can just drop you a DM. And same with 20, 30 other people I've met. And I think that it's a testament, isn't it, to connecting to like-minded people who will be able to be there for you and meet your needs, should you need it.

Alyssa Scolari [25:10]:

Absolutely. That is the nourishment of the soul. What you're describing, I resonate so much as well, which is, that nourishes my soul, is that connection. And the name of your podcast, The Awareness Space, right? This concept of awareness is very, very important to you. Can you talk about the Awareness 5, what it is, why is awareness so important?

Owen Morgan [25:39]:

Yeah, sure. The Awareness 5 is a fairly new thing. I was just trying to think, there's so much information out there about daily practices and meditation and moving practices, yoga. There's lots of things out there saying what things you can integrate into your day. It's a bit like the mindful living, isn't it? What do you do from the moment you wake up to the moment you go to bed? Because I think that's where a big part of the transformation happens, because you live in a way that is intentional or with a sense of awareness. And I was trying to figure out what that looks like on paper.

And as I'm doing my coaching qualifications at the moment, if I've noticed anything about coaches, and I have lots of friends that do it, they've all got amazing anagrams or letters and numbers that mean stuff, or the free key principles. I was like, okay, every coach, it seems like, needs that thing that they use. So it's like, well, I need on. So I was like, right. I'll just take the word aware, and I'll just break down the letters. I thought, well, what can I come up with? And actually, I thought, this is quite good, what I've managed to add to these letters.

Alyssa Scolari [26:37]:

It's amazing.

Owen Morgan [26:38]:

I've added two other bits to the end of it, too, which you're going to be the first person ever to hear this, as well as the audience. [crosstalk 00:26:44]

Alyssa Scolari [26:43]:

All right. Buckle up, everybody. I'm here for this.

Owen Morgan [26:48]:

I just really wanted to show people how I live my day, because by no means am I "healed," in inverted commas, from all my trauma, because I don't really think that's a thing. I think it's a lifelong journey. Anything could happen to you tomorrow, good or potentially "bad," in inverted commas again. So we have to be aware that trauma doesn't end after you've sorted out your last one, because who knows what's next? And COVID taught us that, hasn't it?

Alyssa Scolari [26:48]:

Absolutely.

Owen Morgan [27:11]:

Who knows what's going to happen tomorrow when you wake up? The whole country could be locked down. You just don't know. But anyway, I got off on a tangent. Just really want to quickly mention something before I say about the Awareness 5 that's really important, because you asked me about my journey to today. Five years ago, I had a life-threatening illness which nearly took my life. It was a digestion-based issue, and I thought I was going to die. It's really important to mention that. It was quite a kick moment. And I came out of hospital all guns blazing, going, "Right. I need the world to under"-

Alyssa Scolari [27:11]:

This is only five years ago?

Owen Morgan [27:40]:

Yeah, yeah. Five years ago. I'm 37 now. 32? Yeah.

Alyssa Scolari [27:40]:

Wow.

Owen Morgan [27:43]:

So I think it's really important that I did have this pivotal moment of coming out of hospital and saying, "Right. I need to rebuild my life. I need to be able to learn to walk again and just start again, basically." And that's why I served the World Health Heroes for a few years. I didn't have any money because of my illness. I was self-employed. I lost all my money. I had no ability to be supported with the mental impact of a physical condition. So that's what fueled me to drive across the UK and interview people on my chat show, and pay for people to be supported by my therapists that were members of mine. So that's what led me to that. But I completely burnt out and got very ill in the process. So there's a lesson for you. I was trying to save the world, I was being a martyr, and it nearly killed me, literally.

Alyssa Scolari [28:24]:

It will. It will.

Owen Morgan [28:27]:

So that's what happened just before the illness, and then the World Health Heroes put me in exactly the same position. Burnout, martyr-based living again. I promised myself after I took a break, I would come back, do what I care about, not be a martyr, and just so it for me, do it because it brings me joy and it matters. That's a really important message. I just wanted to say that quickly, because people will think I had all this trauma as a kid, then I went on this 10-year healing journey. But halfway through that, my body nearly conked out. So I'm lucky. Very lucky.

Alyssa Scolari [28:55]:

Well, that's horrific and it's horrible, but it also, I think, accurately describes the healing journey, which is, we don't get it right. It's not like we realize we have all this childhood trauma, and then it's like, "Oh, okay. I'm on my way to healing, and I'm just going to be healing for the next 30, 40 years of my life." It's like, no, no. We want to help. We want to take what happened to us. We want to help. We help so much, we become a martyr. We burn out. We end up getting really sick. I had mentioned to you, I think a week or so ago, that I had been having some health issues as well. Nothing nearly as severe as yours, but my health issues were also a result of, I think, massive burnout. Burnout number one of my career. So, as horrible as it is, I also think you're accurately describing what it is like for people to go through this process.

Owen Morgan [29:52]:

Yeah, I think entrepreneurs need to be really careful. It's so easy to tip over that balance and trip into burnout. It's hard, because you're trying to make it work and make it sustainable. And I find having this job I've got at the moment has been really helpful, because it's allowed me to just enjoy this, just lap it all up, because I'm not worrying about money. So there's that too. But I think it's just really important for people to know that when you don't listen and you don't tune in to the messages your body is giving you and your mind's giving you, because it's always going to be giving you messages. If your body's hurting, it tells you. You feel it. But if you disconnect from that and just keep going, like happened to me, eventually my digestion just completely packed in. I had no digestive system. And I had the worst six days of my life, when all my organs started to fail.

And it's because I wasn't listening for a whole year and a half. I was just planning on massaging everybody I could, and having a job, and doing this and doing that. And my body just completely stopped working because I was not listening. It warned me so many times. I thought it was a gluten problem. I was like, "Oh god, I've got one of those gluten issues. You know what it's like." And it was my body saying, "You're in fight or flight too much. Your digestion is no longer working properly. Just letting you know. You might want to go to [inaudible 00:31:03] for a bit." No, no, it's fine. [crosstalk 00:31:06]

And then eventually, the gluten issue got worse and worse and worse, and eventually, my intestines just stopped working. So it's really important to really tune in and check in. And the reason I'm saying that is because it ties into the Awareness 5 really nicely. It ties up. And I'm trying to focus, because I'm being a terrible guest here and not answering your question, and going on for a terrible tangent.

Alyssa Scolari [31:27]:

No, you're fine. Tangents are the story of my life. We love tangents on this podcast! It's fine.

Owen Morgan [31:30]:

Yeah, yeah. Sorry, it's because I do really long-form podcasts, so I just literally could talk for two hours. So I'm like, "Owen, give them the information they need in a nice, concise way."

Alyssa Scolari [31:43]:

Oh, you're fine.

Owen Morgan [31:45]:

Awesome. Right. I'll dive into the Awareness 5 for you. Let's get into it, because you might want to ask me about bits and bobs as we go. I'll just read out each bit, sure, and then if there's anything you find useful, then yeah, just let me know.

So, the Awareness 5 is an awareness practice to facilitate improved wellbeing that really helped me. Five techniques I use to support transformation in how I live moment to moment, and how I am in the world around me. A practice of self-awareness, self-resilience, and self-empowerment. Yes, I am reading this. I'm not that good. It sounds like I'm reading.

A means actual. What is really going on here? Stepping away from your instinctive narrative and default thinking patterns we always tend to adopt. Can I open to a deeper source of this experience? Can I take time before I form a belief? Because if you let those thoughts get carried away with you over and over again, you will start to believe it's true, and then you start to form beliefs, and then you've got a longer journey back. So what's really going on here, and being aware of that.

W is words. Thoughts aren't facts. They are just unfiltered feedback. This is very powerful. We tend to believe our thoughts.

Alyssa Scolari [32:57]:

Oh, that's so important.

Owen Morgan [32:59]:

Thoughts come in and flow through. If you're doing any kind of mindfulness meditation practice, when people say, "Meditate and clear your mind," it's garbage. That's not what you do. You let the thoughts come in, and you let them flow through. You do not attach, you don't pass judgment. You're not trying to block anything out. That's not being mindful. In the thought comes, and in it goes again, nice and flowy. This is a story, quite often, that follows a body state. So now we're touching on polyvagal theory here. Thoughts can be affected by which state you're in. You might be feeling a bit fight or flight, or a bit shutdown. Your thoughts are generally more negative.

Can I see beyond my words and not get caught up in them? Very powerful. Can I see how my words also feed my body sensations? You'll notice your posture starts to change when you start to think more negatively. You roll your shoulders. And if I've learned anything from massage, when people tell me at the beginning what's going on for them, I can see their body holding it just purely by the way they're saying it, so I try and break that down. Can I see how my beliefs are being created by my repeating thoughts? Lovely.

A is anatomy. Again, massage connections. What's really going on with my body right now? Checking in with my body sensations in any given moment. I'm not just talking about when you're triggered. I'm just talking about a couple times a day, just check in. Does it feel hot? Does it feel fizzy? Do I feel tight? Do I feel constricted? Do I feel open? Do I feel joy? Just keep checking in. Do I feel uncomfortable around a certain person that I'm around? Check in with your body. Your body will tell you if you're not comfortable. Can I notice my neuroception around this environment and this person? How is my nervous system getting on with their nervous system? Are they dancing? Are they getting on well, or is it starting to be maybe a little bit edgy? Really, really important. Neuroception is one of my favorite things ever. It transformed my massage business. But that's for another day.

R is reactive. Can I become aware of my triggers and glimmers? This changed my life forever. When I started to become aware of what triggers me and what brings me joy, I had so much more control over my life. And I could see my triggers as a compassionate observer. Say, "Hey, oh my god, I've just been triggered. Oh, okay. This is interesting." Curiosity all the way. What sets me into fight or flight or shutdown? What helps me feel connected, safe, and heart-centered? Can I get to know my boundaries and limits, and the resources that I need to support my nervous system? So just being aware of what sets you off is really helpful. I'm nearly there, I promise.

And the last one is ego, which is my new favorite thing. So, can I see beyond perception? Perception is huge. How we perceive as ours in its entirety. Beyond the perception of who I am, coming from people's expectations, opinions, and narrative about me, can I see past that? Seeing past the role I play in any given moment. Being the space of stillness outside of thought and self-judgment. If you had nowhere to be right now or no demands on your life to meet, how would this moment actually look? And the biggest question is, if I wasn't called Owen, what does this moment look like? Because the name Owen alone is reminding me of who Owen is, and those experiences. And I'm a container of things that have happened to me, but I need to stand outside the container and say, "That's the concept of Owen perceived by the world. But I'm actually being able to look at that."

So that's the Awareness 5. I got a bit excited. I talked too much about each one. But I leave it [crosstalk 00:36:19].

Alyssa Scolari [36:18]:

No. I actually can't wait to go back and listen. Well, for the listeners out there, and I will link all of Owen's social media and his website on the show notes. But the Awareness 5 is also listed on his website, theawarenesspace.com. And I actually can't wait to go back, because everything that you talked about, I'm sitting here and I'm thinking, that is a great journal topic. That is a great journal topic. Because there's so much exploration in all of those, so much self-exploration in all of that, that I think can really help people to take the best care of themselves. I really like that. And you came up with that. That is incredible. You came up with that based on your own personal experiences.

Owen Morgan [37:13]:

Yes, certainly. I think each of those five steps have helped me in the last 10 years, and they've all come together to where they are there, all bundled up. And I think all of them facilitate this sense of being this compassionate witness of your experience, realizing that you are experiencing every moment you're in, but you're also able to observe the experiences that unfold. And that empowerment alone could change the game, I think, especially from a trauma perspective. And I've learned this a lot from my clients over the years, too. And these five just came to me because this is how I live my life daily. So even though I may struggle to stick to a meditation practice or stick to any daily practice. I've always struggled to stick to it daily. I thought, "Right. Classic. Is there something wrong with me? Why can't I just sit down and do this?"

But then when I really explored my life, I actually approach it from the moment I get up to the moment I go to bed. I use these five. It may just be one that day, where I just focus on body sensations for the day, keep it nice and simple, and see what I can learn about myself. Very empowering. And then you can try a different one the next day. But because I live this way, I think it gives me a sense of steadiness in my life, which I could get from a daily practice. But actually, I do it this way instead, if that makes sense.

Alyssa Scolari [38:19]:

Yes. I mean, this in itself, it is daily practice. And the way you put it, being a compassionate witness, it's beautiful. It's so important. And one of the themes that I see that keep coming up for you and the work that you've done is the emphasis and the importance that you place on the body/mind connection, and the power of touch, and the power of checking in with your body. Do you find lots of healing in being a masseuse?

Owen Morgan [38:55]:

It's funny with the massage thing, because when you think about it, I was somebody that was physically violated as a young child and also in school, the bullying for three years. So it's interesting that I would fall into a touch-based modality. But I started from personal training initially, and I got my confidence up to work with people. I had a lot of impostor syndrome. But actually, the more I worked with people, the more injured they were getting from other things not linked to me. I wasn't injuring anybody. But they were coming to me with bad backs, bad knees, and all that kind of stuff. And I was like, I really want to help these people physically, so I did a sports massage training thing.

But actually, the more I got into it, I thought, actually, this is so beautiful, being able to welcome someone into a space and say, "I can see that you're in pain." And to be honest, a lot of it was emotional. That's what was causing the physical issues. And hold that, and make them feel safe and calm, put on beautiful music, and I used the most amazing wax. It smelled so good. It was all flower extract stuff. It was gorgeous. And they would just sink. They would sink into this bench, and at the end, they would feel so connected to their body for the first time in a while. The men especially, it was so beautiful to see that unfold.

And I really, really started to fall in love with my ability to hold this space and make them feel that way, rather than just sorting out a dodgy muscle or fixing a back. And I never knew I wanted that. I never knew I wanted to hold a space. I always felt like I wasn't worthy enough to help anybody with anything. That in itself was quite healing. But as someone that's always enjoyed physical touch as a love language, it made sense to me that touch would be my initial offering, I think. Whereas now, I can verbalize it and hold space this way. But yeah, I adored it, and I've missed it a lot. But I've partly grown out of it too, so it's also important to listen that that was part of my journey, but I think I may need to move on now with that and focus on a more coaching-based modality. But yeah, I hope I answered your question.

Alyssa Scolari [40:52]:

Absolutely. A lot of what you're talking about makes me think of one of my favorite quotes of all time. And I just pulled it up as you were talking. It reads, "Someone I loved once gave me a box full of darkness. It took me years to understand that this too was a gift." And throughout this whole time that we've been speaking, that just keeps popping up in my head over and over and over again, because what I hear is that you were given a box full of darkness by somebody, somebody who hurt you. And you took it, and you have created gift after gift after gift, in the form of holding space for others to heal through being a massage therapist, in the form of starting the, is it a foundation, organization?

Owen Morgan [41:47]:

Yeah, World Health Heroes. Yeah.

Alyssa Scolari [41:48]:

World Health Heroes, to help people who are not as financially well-off to be able to access quality care. Doing what you're doing now, starting this podcast, just everything that you do is a gift that you've created. And the reason why you are so highly qualified and highly skilled at it is because of that box of darkness that you were given as a child.

Owen Morgan [42:16]:

Yeah, that's a really lovely quote, and thank you for sharing that. Like I said, I just look back with gratitude, really. I think I wouldn't be here today doing this if it wasn't for all of those traumas. I know it's a really cheesy thing to say, but it's true.

Alyssa Scolari [42:28]:

I don't believe it is. I think it shapes you into being a healer, which you are a healer. I always say this. You don't have to be a therapist to be a healer. You have to be a human to be a healer. And a human being can be a healer, as long as you're in touch enough with your own pain. And you've clearly done a lot of work.

Owen Morgan [42:50]:

Yeah, definitely. Even though I put a block up for a couple years about coaching, I'm finally actually studying, I'm hoping that will translate going forward. Because I'm like, "Oh, I'll be a rubbish coach." There's still some sabotaging there.

Alyssa Scolari [43:01]:

Of course.

Owen Morgan [43:02]:

As soon as I make it official, I'll be like, "Oh god, I've really, really got to nail this." But then realizing, actually, you can't get it wrong. All you can do is guide in the way you think is right. And if it doesn't feel right, then you just refer them to somebody else that' amazing that you trust. You can't get it wrong. You just refer. If you can't help, then you refer.

Alyssa Scolari [43:20]:

You can't. Yes, there's no moment where you're like, "Oh, I've nailed this." It's like, eh, you nailed it a long time ago when you decided to face your pain and work through your pain, instead of pushing it off and coping with drugs, alcohol, sex, food, what have you. It's like, well, you nailed it at that moment. Anything else, you can't get wrong.

Owen Morgan [43:45]:

No, totally. And I just think it's being aware enough to know the pace you need to do things. And the two things I added to the Awareness 5, because it's the first time I've done it, I'm super excited to say it, just say the words out loud.

Alyssa Scolari [43:56]:

Oh yeah.

Owen Morgan [43:57]:

Which is that the important thing to remember about any healing journey or any trauma recovery, or even integrating a new daily practice, is to hold it with the three S's. I'm a proper coach now. The three S's. It's doing the Awareness 5 [inaudible 00:44:11]. It's slow, steady, and safe. I've been saying this on the last five episodes of my show. Slow, steady, safe. Because if you rush it, you could traumatize yourself. If you dive in too deeply and you don't take it steady, you could re-traumatize. If you do it from a place of unsafety, re-traumatize, or you will slip out of daily practice or not be able to keep it up. Slow, steady, and safe, the three S's, really important.

And then the R's. Why not have another three? Which I literally came up with about one hour and 28 minutes ago. [crosstalk 00:44:42] And it's because I was listening to myself on someone else's podcast, on Humble-U Media's podcast. I was listening back to it, and I said these three R's by mistake. I was like, wow, that's pretty cool. I'm going to use that. It's remembering, whatever we're trying to do to become connected again in this moment, to reintegrate into society and all this kind of stuff, to feel whole again, to feel safe.

The three things we're trying to do is to reintegrate all of these trauma experiences, so integrate into our system so we can process and release. Integration, recalibrate, so get everything back online and working as one, and re-regulate, so get into a place so that you can regulate yourself in any situation you are. It's reintegrate, recalibrate, and re-regulate to give us a sense of wholeness. The end. That's the last, my two new bits.

Alyssa Scolari [45:28]:

Wow. Yeah. I hope you did write that down, because that's amazing.

Owen Morgan [45:33]:

Yeah, it's right there on the screen, so I'm going to pop that on the website. I could only thank my guests for this, including you. The more people I interview, the more insight and wisdom I get from them. They pass that on to me, and then I'm able to articulate it in a way that makes sense to me. And I think that's a really important message to just get out there. Communicate with people, and you'll be surprised what they can invoke in you in a really positive way, can't they?

Alyssa Scolari [45:55]:

Absolutely. I think we had this conversation, which is about podcasting and doing this type of work, is that we learn so much. At first, I thought I was creating this podcast to help other people, which I am. But I'm also doing this because it helps me. And I learn so much. Every conversation, I learn, and I grow, and I change, and I heal a little bit more. Man, your whole world just keeps rapidly developing, and growing, and changing, and improving. I am loving it. I am here for all of this success.

So, for your future, it's more of this, right? It's continuing to grow. You're going to become, is it a licensed coach? Is that what they-

Owen Morgan [46:45]:

Yeah, yeah. It's going to take a little while. It's a fully-fledged, really decent course that I'm doing. There's a lot of one-day or weekend courses, don't get me started on that, which give you a certificate. But that's for another day. This is a properly fully-fledged. It's amazing. I've done the first few modules. The guy that's written it, he's fantastic, so I'm like, wow, this is amazing. Yeah, it'd be a life skills coaching qualification, and it's a level four psychology, but I know it's going to be a three-year university thing. So I'm not entirely sure if it's an introduction. But if anything, it's going to be useful, isn't it, to my coaching.

Alyssa Scolari [46:45]:

Of course.

Owen Morgan [47:19]:

So I'll do that, and I'm going to do probably about 10,000 CPD courses in my lifetime. I want to do [inaudible 00:47:25] this year, polyvagal theory. That would just be immense. Any somatic-based stuff. So yeah, I think it's really important for therapists and coaches, isn't it, to just keep getting out there and learning these little add-ons. I think it just opens up your world more.

Alyssa Scolari [47:37]:

Always.

Owen Morgan [47:38]:

I think people have figured out already I love to learn, so if I can get up every day and learn something and share a space with a human, then I'm done. I'm done.

Alyssa Scolari [47:47]:

Yes. Then you've had a great day. That's a great day in your book. Yep. I love it. Thank you so, so much for coming on. To the listeners out there, as I mentioned before, I am going to pop Owen's website and his podcast link in the show notes. It is The Awareness Space. Theawarenessspace.com is the website. We'll also link his Instagram handle. He is doing phenomenal work. Head on over, check out all of the amazing things that he is up to. I am so appreciate of you coming on the show. Thank you so, so much.

Owen Morgan [48:27]:

No, thank you for having me on. It was a joy to have you with me. And we've got a panel show coming up. There's four of us. I'm really excited to do that.

Alyssa Scolari [48:27]:

That's right!

Owen Morgan [48:36]:

That's going to be amazing. That'll be out in a couple weeks. But again, I just want to thank you for just being you, because every person I interview, I pretty much become lifelong friends with, it seems. So I feel like I'm just building up way too many friends that I can't keep up with. But I just want to thank you for just being part of my life, really. It's very special. Thank you.

Alyssa Scolari [48:54]:

Yes, yes. And I thank you. I thank you for the same as well. We've been scheduling so many things lately, and we've been in so much contact lately. And this morning, I was like, "Oh, I have a podcast interview today." I said that to my husband, and he was like, "With who?" And I was like, "Our friend Owen!" And he's like, "Oh, tell Owen I said hi." I'm like, "I will."

Owen Morgan [49:20]:

That's nice.

Alyssa Scolari [49:23]:

Yeah, no, it really is becoming a beautiful friendship. So, thank you. Thank you for your time. I really appreciate it.

Owen Morgan [49:30]:

No, thank you for having me on, and thank you everybody that's listened through. It means a lot to me.

Alyssa Scolari [49:36]:

Thanks for listening, everyone. For more information about today's episode and to sign up for the Light After Trauma newsletter, head over to my website at alyssascolari.com. The really great thing about being a part of this newsletter is that not only do you get weekly updates on new podcast episodes and blog posts, but you also get access to the private Facebook Com, as well as access to all sorts of insider tips, resources, and infographs that supplement what we talk about on the show. You also can connect with me and other trauma warriors. I'm super active on the Facebook community, and I look forward to talking with you.

The concept of intuitive eating is undoubtedly trending right now, yet the question remains, how do we do it? Where do we start? This week Alyssa talks with Registered Dietitian Nutritionist, Colleen Christensen to dive into her intuitive eating journey and the specifics of how to begin.

Find Colleen: colleenchristensennutrition.com @no.food.rules on Instagram and TikTok @the_socieaty on Instagram

Check out the Light After Trauma website for transcripts, other episodes, Alyssa's guest appearances, and more at: www.lightaftertrauma.com

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We need your help! We want to continue to make great content that can help countless trauma warriors on their journey to recovery. So, please help us in supporting the podcast by becoming a recurring patron of the show via Patreon. Every bit helps!

Transcript:

Alyssa Scolari: [00:00:23]

What's up, everybody. Welcome to another fun, fantastic episode of Light After Trauma, where talking about trauma does not have to be so doom and gloom. I am honored as always to share this space with all of you and I am eternally grateful to all of the listeners out there. So we are coming in hot and heavy with another awesome professional and expert on my favorite topic, intuitive eating. I know, you know how much I love this topic and we have with us here today, Colleen Christiansen, her Instagram handle is it's @no.food.rules. Okay. So I discovered Colleen on Instagram, I started following her when I made the decision to start to try intuitive eating.

And one of the first things I did was I unfollowed all of the people on social media who made me feel terrible about myself, which if you haven't done so already, I highly recommend. It's life-changing. And then I discovered Colleen and I have been following her for quite some time watching her really just develop this safe space where it's okay to enjoy all foods. She is crushing it on Tik-Tok. She is hysterical, and I just love everything that she does. So hello, Colleen and welcome.

Colleen Christensen [00:02:25]

Hello. Thank you for that sweet intro. I'm super excited to be here and be chatting about this with you.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:02:31]

Of course I meant every word of it. Your platform has helped me so much in my intuitive eating journey. So I love what you're doing. Would you be able to just share like a little bit more about the work that you do, like on a day to day basis?

Colleen Christensen [00:02:49]

Absolutely. So I am a registered dietician and I teach intuitive eating and food freedom, and really finding this liberation from diet culture, right. Not following these fad diets or counting anything, really learning how to listen to your body. And like we've said, eat intuitively and yeah. The thing is we all have an innate ability to eat intuitively.

That's how we were born, as babies, we are able to say, when we're hungry, we cry. When we're full, we turn our cheeks away. We were done ,right? And throughout life, that's taken away from us by diet culture. And we start to question ourselves, what should I be eating?

What shouldn't I be eating? Should I be trying to change the way that my body looks? And through all of that, this is a learned ,right. Diet culture is a learned thing. We lose touch with our ability to listen to our bodies. So my work is to help people get back to that and get back to learning how to eat intuitively, which is so much more than just, okay: eat when you're hungry, stop when you're full, eat all of the foods that you want.

Yes, that's important, but it's really about, and I think that (for) a lot of people, this is a big misconception. It's about marrying our internal knowledge, those cravings, our wants our desires with the external world of nutrition and health and finding a balance between those and really understanding the way different foods tastes with different foods that we like, how they make us feel.

And that's how we're able to intuitively fuel our bodies without following these diets. Do it so in a way that feels good, both mentally and physically. I help people get back to that point. And for me, the reason that I even got into this career is because I really struggled with food myself. And I'll be honest with you.

I say this all the time. I never expected this to be my career, that I would be helping other people learn how to do this too. I'm just going to give you a little bit of a backstory about my story. I kind of started with having food rules as a way to cope in college. Like so many people. And I started off being very restrictive.

And for me, that was a way to gain that control, to feel like I was good at something. And then after a couple of years of just having that all encompassing, just obsession with food and my body, I swung from being very restrictive to going into kind of like binge mode. Like I went from one end of the spectrum to other end.

And after I did a lot of this work and understanding it, that's very normal. But this was way before intuitive eating and understanding the way diets affect our bodies was a thing. So I thought I was crazy going through this and trying to navigate: okay. How do I just freaking eat normally again? And it took me years, to be honest, it was a lot of trial and error.

Like I said, this was before intuitive eating. I'm so thankful that it's gained so much popularity lately, but this was way before that. So I did tons of trial and error, and throughout this, I have figured out, okay, this is what worked for me. (These) processes has allowed me to find this balance that we're all looking for.

And like I said, still, at this point, I never expected this to be my career. I was like, great. I'm living with food, freedom. It's fabulous. And then the further along that I got in that, this was my normal, eating was normal, again, people were asking me about it and I just realized that I had to step into the role that I didn't have when I was going through this and really help people find this way faster because it was so much, like I said, trial and error to figure out, okay, how do I actually get to this? Why is this happening? Is this normal that I just got to the point where I'm like, okay, I want to help people get to this faster, a lot less confusing, (and) complicated than what I had to go through.

So that's what I do today. And I love that you said the humor part because that's definitely a big part of who I am. This issue of diet culture and finding...getting to a place where we can eat intuitively it's scary because it's so drastically different than what we're taught to believe, that we should try to change our bodies, that we should eat as little as possible and it can be scary. So I always try to create an environment that yes, I'm going to help you, I'm going to educate you and help you along this journey, but let's also do it in a way where we're taking that pressure off ourself.

That we're laughing, that we, because for me, that was one of the things that was ... always say that when you start to eat intuitively your life is just going to bleed into other areas of your life and you're going to be, cause you're not hungry all the time. You're not stressing about food.

You are able to live more. And so I just love to encompass that in there and show that: Hey food doesn't have to be scary. You can get through this. And so I love that you put the little humor bits in there.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:07:34]

Yeah. Yes. That's exactly what you do is you just make it ...I think the term intuitive eating is very scary.

Colleen Christensen [00:07:41]

Yes, it is.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:07:43]

You truly embody the freedom that comes with intuitive eating. Like that is the vibe all over. You're just all over your page, all over your platform. I love that because even in the most difficult days, because and I, of course, do want to talk about this.

It's not easy, but even in the most difficult days on your intuitive eating journey, it's: Oh, look at the freedom that comes like, look like, Colleen is having dessert every night. Look at that, like some form of chocolate. But, yeah, it's just, I don't know. It's even on the hardest days you provide a light right, in the journey because it's very difficult. So you actually didn't start with your restrictive behaviors, if I understood that correctly, until you got to college.

Colleen Christensen [00:08:35]

Correct.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:08:37]

So what did you originally go to college thinking that you were going to be doing?

Colleen Christensen [00:08:42]

I went to college to be a registered dietician. So this was my path all along. And I, to be honest with you, in high school, I was always the jock. I was never quite, what you call studious. And when I got to college, dietetics is a very rigorous program. It's very science based. And I knew that this was what I wanted to do.

I've always loved food. I've always loved the science behind things and nutrition and that sort of things, but it was never anything extreme until I started to use that as a way to cope with the stress, the anxiety of school. And I felt like it was something I could control when I felt stressed about a test or whatever in college, so much stuff goes on. I felt like that was a place that I could come back to and feel like I was good at something, to be honest that's for me what it was like, a lot of people feel like: Oh, I really want that donut. I honestly felt like I was being good if I didn't do it.

And when I was so nervous about my grades, I was so nervous about other things. I was like, yeah maybe I'm not the smartest person. Although I studied my behind off and I became a absolute nerd in college. I have to say I don't know what switched. I think it was because I was studying something I enjoyed, but I felt like it was something I was good at.

.And I feel like a lot of people feel that way too, because as humans, we want that, we want that validation that we're doing something right. We like to have goals to work towards. And I think that's one thing that makes dieting and diet culture so attractive to people. And I always say diet culture serves a purpose in our life.

It's a lot of times, it's a way to bond with people, right? Because you do a diet, you do it with a friend. It's a way for you to talk about things. Or like I said, it's a way for you to feel like: Oh, I'm working towards a goal or I'm feeling, quote unquote, good about something. And that's really what it was for me. Is that it started off as that small : Oh, this is something I could control. And then it starts to spiral. And I think that's so often how it starts, where people just want to gain some sort of that control, whether you're counting points, you're following, different lifestyles, whatever it is then we start to feel like, Oh, like we feel that almost like sense of gratification at the end of the day, if we did our points, or if our macros fell into place or whatever it is, it's about so much more than the food.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:11:05]

Absolutely. I love that you said that because it's so much about restrictive eating and even overeating or binge eating or bulemia is about control. So I can not control my circumstances. I can't control that. I feel I'm not up to par with where I'm at in college. I feel like I'm not the best that I'm not as good as everyone else.

But what I can control is this, so I can control the fact that everybody else is going to eat that donut. And I am not going to eat that donut. And that is where I'm going to take my power back. And that becomes so dangerous because you ends up never being satisfied, obviously both literally and figuratively, because there will always be somebody else who also isn't going to eat that donut.

So then not only do you need to not eat that donut, but then you need to lose five pounds. And then somebody else will have lost five pounds. So now you need to lose 10 pounds and you will never ever be satisfied.

Colleen Christensen [00:12:14]

It's never enough. And that was really, after a few years of that, I was, I can't keep living this way. Like I envisioned: Oh, I'll get to a certain weight or you'll get to a certain whatever your goal is. But when you get there, it's not enough exactly, like you said.

And that's when I just realized that something had to change. So I then broke my food rules and I went from one end of the spectrum to the other end of the spectrum. And I would eat enormous amounts of food. I'm not talking about two bowls of cereal. I'm talking about like multiple boxes at a time.

And now that I know that was stemmed from my restriction and that was a normal biological response and had intuitive eating been this thing and this dissembling diet culture had been a thing back then it would have helped so much. So I just think that the more that we talk about this stuff, the more that we are able to... for me one, I always say it's important to find your why. And a lot of people talk about this as well of why do you want to do that? One of my biggest motivators has been, I have this vision for myself: where it's me and my husband right now. And in the future. I want to be able to sit down with our future kids at the breakfast table and have pancakes and pour the maple syrup and put whipped cream on them.

That was something that I could not do with my food rules. So that was something for me that I want to have this vision of raising intuitive eaters and having them not struggle like this. So that was definitely something that was important for me is that the more that we do this work, the more that we are able to bring up a generation that won't have to hopefully struggle as much as we have.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:13:53]

Yes. And that we'll be able to better ignore the diet culture, because there are so many diets in disguise out there, which like, I know I have talked about this on other podcasts, which is like the Noom diet, right? How it's like not a diet. Are you familiar with that one? How they just say, they're not a diet. So can you talk a little bit about, and I think you pretty much did this: but why is it that diets ultimately don't work because I think people believe that if they just stay on Weight Watchers or stay on Keto for the rest of their lives or Paleo, there'll be fine. Why doesn't that work?

Colleen Christensen [00:14:37]

Absolutely. So one reason is that no one will ever be able to tell you exactly what your body needs, because that's going to ebb and flow from day to day, that's going to ebb and flow throughout our lives. I always say that, especially with intuitive eating, there's no bumper sticker at the end of it because I am going to be different next week than I am today, next year.

It's continual learning how to adapt to what your body needs and when you follow diets, they don't take that into consideration. So that's one of the reasons that diets typically are going to fail is that they're not taking you into account and another reason is that typically diets, the goal is to intentionally lose weight.

And when we focus on just losing weight and not listening to our bodies, a lot of times diets may quote unquote work in the short term, meaning that you get to the goal of losing weight. However, our weights, our bodies have what we call a set point weight, where they want to be, where they're going to function optimally, and think of this as like a thermostat that our bodies have within them that, okay, this is the range that makes me feel good.

So I'm going to do what I can to keep myself in this range. If you go too low, it's going to turn that thermostat up. Because it wants to get you back to that point. So we feel like we fail. If we go on a diet and then we regain weight back, which happens the majority of the time. When in reality, that's really just your body protecting you from the starvation that it thinks is happening from not giving your body enough energy.

I think that there's so many reasons why these diets don't work. And also a lot of times they don't take into consideration that food is more than just nutrients. Food, I always say some foods nourish our bodies more and some nourish our souls more and we need and deserve both of those. If you're just looking at food for the specific nutrients in them, food should be emotional.

We deserve to enjoy it. And if you're not taking that into account, that's going to a lot of times cause kind of that all or nothing mentality. When you finally do allow yourself to have that food that you were restricting or that you weren't allowing yourself because you didn't think it was nutrient dense enough.

It's the analogy that I always say of, if you tell a kid not to press the big red button, all they're going to want to do is press the big red button. Same thing goes for those diets. It's going to actually increase the perceived reward that your brain has of that food and make you want it even more.

So that restriction is a lot of times what causes us to enter that binge cycle, that restrict binge cycle. And it's just as vicious merry-go-round we go on.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:17:15]

Yup. Absolutely. I love that so much because I think that there are so many people who, I treat eating disorders in my practice, and there are so many people who will come in kids, adults, and the like, and they will say, I wish I could just learn to eat to live instead of live,to eat. And I'm like no.

Cause when you say that I'm like: But Ben and Jerry's and Talenti ice cream! That's so sad!

Colleen Christensen [00:17:45]

I think about that too. Like I said, food should be emotional. We want to enjoy it. I'm thinking about just random, weekends with my husband when we have lazy mornings have pancakes and stuff like that. So much more than just about the nutrients of the food, or when we go get ice cream on a whim, things like: that's living that's life. And it just makes me really sad that some people take away the emotion from it. And I did this myself eating the exact same thing, because it's easy to put into MyFitnessPal, or just not allowing yourself that enjoyment.

You deserve that as a human being, that is you're right. And that's one thing that I recommend to a lot of people as they're going through this process, if you're having those feelings of almost feeling guilty for enjoying food and eating food that nourishes your soul, maybe more than your body is to have a monitor affirmation to say I deserve this.

This is literally my human right to enjoy food. And because you really do, you enjoy it. And I would not want to live a life where I just saw food not as enjoyment to me. That's just so sad.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:18:48]

So sad. I know. And to think that I used to do that. It's funny because I was on Facebook earlier today and this post, popped up on my timeline and it was a photo of me when I was at my sickest and most restrictive and I looked back and it was the first time that I looked back at myself with compassion and actually sadness and thought: Oh my dear Lord was I thin?

Absolutely. Was I happy? No. I was eating lettuce withbalsamic vinegar and. It was a nightmare and I was so deprived and you can see this sort of hollowness in my eyes. That

Colleen Christensen [00:19:39]

Oh my gosh. Yes.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:19:42]

it is only a hollow...and I say this all the time, like it is only a hollowness that can be formed by like a grilled chicken and lettuce diet.

Colleen Christensen [00:19:53]

Yes. Oh my gosh. I relate to that so much. I have, obviously pictures everyone does, on their time hop, come back up. And at first it can be very triggering at first when you look at those pictures, cause especially in the, if you're in the beginning of this phase of learning how to eat intuitively, if you can turn that off, definitely do it.

You over time, you build up what I call your suit of armor against diet culture. And so my suit of armor after doing this for years is pretty strong. So when I see those pictures, I don't think of things like, Oh, my body looked this way. I look at what I remember the feelings were. I remember the feelings of the pictures and feeling like I was not happy.

Then I was thinking about food. I couldn't even tell you what went on at the event because I was too obsessed with how did my body look, how many calories were in that drink, whatever it might've been that I was thinking about. So that's one thing. If you're struggling with that, definitely think about what was actually going on in the picture, but to your point about that hollowness, that is one thing that I feel like I look and I feel, and people talk about this all the time too, just totally different because I have life, and my skin isn't dead. Like my hair has grown. Like it's thicker. It's stronger. You have, you're nourished. It's crazy what it does. And my skin just doesn't look like it's hanging around me or like you have that deadness in your eyes, you're actually living and you can actually see that.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:21:11]

And I, yeah, I looked so robotic because even in the picture, the way I am and the way I am leaning is that I'm clearly trying to hide my body. And I'm clearly trying to pose in a way that would make me look the best instead of just smiling, like everybody else in the picture. I am the one that's hollowed out eyes twisted in some kind of like mechanical way.

Colleen Christensen [00:21:40]

At the time, it seems Oh, this makes so much sense, but then you look back, you're like, what position is?!

Alyssa Scolari: [00:21:46]

Absolutely. I'm like, how did my hips do that? Cause I don't think my hips do that today, but it's, that is the journey of intuitive eating is that you do get to a point where you're able to look at those pictures. I think that even a year ago, I would not have been able to look at that picture without, sobbing and going: see, I need to be on Weight Watchers. This is what I needed to do. And now I look at that picture and I'm like, Aw, like poor me. I had no clue, which leads me to my next question, because I think people talk about intuitive eating, but. I don't think anybody, or at least the people who come into my office, when we talk about what that looks like and how we're going to start that process.

I don't think many people are prepared for it. So you actually did a Tik-Tok on this, which I think was phenomenal. And it was like you talking about what intuitive eating is. Like when you first start out and you have like a container of ice cream and it's all over your face. And I'm like, Oh, I relate to that so hard.

My nutritionist. Had me eating ice cream every day of my life. And at first I was going all in. I was not stopping until my spoon hit the bottom of that pint. So could you talk a little bit about what those beginning steps are like for those who start out on their intuitive eating journey?

Colleen Christensen [00:23:23]

Absolutely. So it's going to feel overwhelming at first. I'll just say that. And then there's a couple of different kind of like facets to think about. So what was very overwhelming for me is that I felt like I was trying to do all of the things at once. And that was where I felt like I was just binge eating honestly for years.

So the way that I teach is to break it down into steps and I say, it's okay. Because especially when you think about this, it's okay, I have all these lists of fear, foods or foods that I'm not allowing myself. It's very scary to look at that and think, okay, all of a sudden, boom, go eat them all.

That can seem scary. So what I say is it's okay to just take baby steps and chunk it down. So the first thing that I recommend is to start giving your body adequate consistent energy. So that means giving your body meals and snacks throughout the day. And what that does is it's going to allow it to get hunger cues back.

It's going to allow it to get to the place where it can have conversations with you and say, this feels good. This doesn't. So that's the first step. If you have to focus on one thing at first, just start with giving your body that adequate consistent energy throughout the day.

And then what I recommend is going into, okay. Now let me hash out my food rules. So these can be very sneaky. So you could have a food rule of obviously things like I don't allow myself to eat X, Y, Z, that's a food rule. But if you maybe allow yourself, so let's take ice cream, for example, maybe you say I buy ice cream, I eat ice cream, but I feel guilty.

Or I think it's quote unquote bad. That's also a food rule that has that kind of morality food rule. So it's really any foods that you're deeming. Okay. Bad or you bet you're feeling guilty eating. I say, just flesh them out on paper, write them out. Again, don't worry about anything, but just like word vomiting all of your food rules onto paper.

And then the way that I recommend is to start from easiest to break to hardest to break. And again, just start with one, don't go necessarily right to the hardest food rule to break, because that can feel very overwhelming at first because essentially, from there, what you want to do is exactly what you just described as essentially exposure therapy to your food rules.

And you want to normalize that. Let's talk, maybe ice cream is a food that you allow yourself. So maybe that's shorter down on your list and you really work that in as much as you can. So then you'd maybe have some after dinner, maybe you honestly throw a little bit on your oatmeal in the morning, make a little a la mode, oatmeal.

That's totally fine. You want to really just gain that exposure to that food, and then you want to work on doing that until you start to feel more comfortable eating it, and then it's okay, I'm working through this one. You gain that confidence, right? You're like I doing this and then go to the next one.

And then what if you work this way is that it's going to snowball and you're going to be like, I'm starting to break multiple food rules at once and you gain that confidence. But I find that a lot of people get so caught up in "Oh my gosh, I have to be totally prepared," when I'm like, just take one step and go in that right direction towards intuitive eating, because I don't want anyone to wait until conditions are perfect.

Cause it's never going to be that way. So I find that explaining it, firstly, that way is very helpful. And then you're like you said, gonna want to eat a lot of that ice cream at first. You're going to want it. I feel like people have this, and I had it too, that you're going to be able to sit down to a, I'm going to say chocolate cake because I literally ate an entire chocolate cake.

I've eaten in chocolate cake twice in my life, anentire chocolate cake. I've eaten one when I was in high school. I, fun fact, took cake decorating class, who takes cake decorating classes in high school? I did.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:26:51]

That sounds like fun!

Colleen Christensen [00:26:52]

It was really fun. But then the other time was I was when I was breaking my food rules and I literally ate an entire chocolate cake.

And I just remember, I did not know that this was normal part of the process. I'm not saying everyone has to go eat a chocolate cake guys, but I'm saying that I didn't understand that pull towards eat more and more of that chocolate cake was going to be there because, it's like telling a, five-year-old not to press the big red button.

They're just going to want to press it. And if you tell them not to press that big red button for a long time, they're really going to want to press it. So, I really wanted to eat that chocolate cake. And I just remember after it, I was like, am I just eating an entire cake for the rest of my life.

What is this? And the more that you allow yourself to, okay," I'm going to keep exposing myself to this food. I'm going to keep giving myself, allowing myself to eat this food." You start to make those connections. And this is very important because this is something that I did not do at first and a lot of people because it's hard to do because we're not used to reflecting on our food choices and how they make us feel and away from what diet culture wants us to, because it's easier just to follow a plan and wipe your hands of it and that's that.

Versus, okay, let me dig into this a little bit is to, if you do, eat a bunch of ice cream, then allow yourself to a) realize that this is part of the process and then b) ask yourself, okay, did I enjoy that? Was it comfortable? Was I present at that time? Did I check out,? Allow yourself to learn from that experience.

And that is how you start to develop: "Oh, maybe. Maybe it didn't feel super great. Maybe it did check out maybe next time. I'll try to stay a little more present during it." And it's very hard at first because you still have that primal urge to eat all of these foods. But as you go through and you show your body:" Hey, this ice cream, you can have it."

It's then going to start to tell you, okay, I'm starting to become satisfied or that pull starts to weaken. And that is how you get to the point to where, right now I have multiple, we always have ice cream on hand, but we have multiple ice creams that our freezer, usually we have a big old family size tub, and it's fine.

There's no pull no restriction. It's just there. And I make a lot of recipes and we have multiple...I'm always testing like a brownie or a cookie or something like that. And my counter is just always full of that food. And sometimes I just get overwhelmed with gratitude that like, this is just normal.

I can have this on my counter and not have to worry, "Am I going to eat the whole thing or I can't eat any of that today?" It's literally just there. And if I want, when I grab it and if I don't, but the idea that you can just flip that switch on and say: "okay, this is, I'm intuitive eating now. Boom! I'm going to eat one. You know what I want and leave it when I don't" Is unrealistic, because if there's a lot of that work that you have to do, and I don't say that to scare anyone obviously, but I always just want to be an open book and say, "Hey, you're probably going to want to eat a lot of those brownies at first, but know that's not going to be forever."

Alyssa Scolari: [00:29:44]

Yes. Part of that process is opening the flood gates to the foods that have been closed off in your life for so long, again, little at a time, but it still feels... when you've been telling yourself that you're only allowed to have Ben and Jerry's on Saturday night, for years. And because you're on a diet that allows you to have one cheat meal every Saturday night, that includes dessert. When you are suddenly like, "Oh, I can eat ice cream every day," you are likely to eat past fullness or past what you may have really wanted because you're just, your body has been in starvation mode and deprivation mode. So it's like a biological response. You're like, "I'm going to hoard this."

Now I'm going to eat all of the ice cream. But eventually if you trust the process over time, it becomes, I couldn't have said it better myself: just this overwhelming feeling of gratitude where, you know, for me, 10 years ago, I was begging my mother and father to not bring home potato chips, cookies, ice cream.

I would become enraged. If they would bring them home. I would say, hide this from me. And now I go downstairs and I'm like, I have two boxes of Oreos in my pantry. I've got probably four pints of Ben and Jerry's, we've got bread, and I'm like, it's gratitude. And it's lifesaving because then you make space, and this is where it can become tied to trauma because you tend to make space for the other things in your life that you were distracting from with food. Those things start to come up, but then you start to work through them and then you actually allow yourself space to enjoy your life.

Colleen Christensen [00:31:38]

Absolutely. Absolutely.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:31:40]

The way you put it is, "yes, it's difficult, but it's, you go slow and it's worth it." It is so worth it on the other side.

Colleen Christensen [00:31:48]

Absolutely. Absolutely. I'm thinking about it too, especially right now when we're recording this around Valentine's Day. So I think back my now husband and I have, we dated in college when I was really struggling, and I used to remember he would buy me a box of chocolates and I would just get angry and stressed and anxious about it.

And now bring on the chocolates.That's this is great. It's just those small things in life that you just get so grateful for.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:32:15]

Yeah, so grateful to be able to enjoy good food and to not have to feel like you need to pay a diet company or the diet industry to tell you what you've already known all along.

Colleen Christensen [00:32:33]

Absolutely. I think that's one of the things that makes it very hard for people. My past self included to really invest in any sort of help with this is because we're like, I should know how to do this. Like I should know how to eat. Like it's different if you're telling someone to give you a specific plan, but do I really need someone to help learn to listen to my body?

That's how I felt. I was like, I should know how to do this, but anyone listening, like it's not your fault. It's literally diet culture's fault. That's literally robbed you of that. So we can flip the script on ourselves and feel like I should know how to do this, but with society the way that it is today.

Like it's not your fault.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:33:12]

Not your fault. There's so much noise out there that's all about, glamorizing, thin this, glamorizing a certain body type, and diets, it's nobody's fault. It's just, the noise is so loud that we forget how to listen to ourselves and sometimes we need help with that. And that's okay. Now you have, so sociEATy.

Colleen Christensen [00:33:37]

SociEATy is spelled E,A,T, Y cause we like to eat.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:33:42]

Oh man, I okay. That's the best play on words. I'm a sucker for a good pun. So I love it. Can you talk a little bit about that?

Colleen Christensen [00:33:51]

Absolutely. So the SociEATy is really a community that I've created. And it's where I not only do all of my teaching, it's, like I said, I've struggled with this for years. And when it came down to it, really, this method of: first allowing yourself to get to a place of adequate energy, then breaking your food rules, then body image and nutrition.

All of this stuff has really been what's allowed me to find a freedom. So that's what I teach inside of the SociEATy. But then I always ask myself whenever I'm trying to create anything, anything in my business is what did I need at that point? Because my goal is to like, we've said guys, food freedom is absolutely amazing and life-changing, how can I help someone get there faster, easier than it was for me.

So for me, I felt so alone during this process, because like I said, it was way before intuitive eating was this big thing. A lot of my friends either or still in diet culture or they had been, blessed to never really struggle with food or their weight.

And I just felt like I was very isolated and bless my now husband. He was so great throughout it all, but he had never struggled either. He didn't know what to say. He didn't know necessarily how to, help me through this. And it was something that I just felt like I needed other people to relate to.

So it's also a community where you...we have so many amazing women from literally all over the world who come to together and just support each other. So we have a private Facebook group that people post in literally all day, every day, just asking for support, because like we said, this is hard.

There's going to be days when you're like, I'm just having a really crummy day. I need a pick me up. And that's a place that you can go for that. And I just think that there's so much value in that. We have group coaching sessions where I answer all the questions, because again, something that I felt was, am I doing this right?

Is this normal? Like sometimes we just need to have those questions answered. So we have those, we have different accountability calls. We have just random brunch zoom calls or we'll just hang out. And I just think that, look, if you've talked about it in the very beginning, that's detoxing, what I call your social media and you truly are your environment.

There's so many studies saying that even at the grocery store, what's at eye level, what is what you're more likely to purchase. No matter if the thing right below it is a better quality and for a more affordable price, simply if it's in your eyesight, you're more likely to adapt to that. Same thing goes with diet culture.

If that's what you are, even if you're not necessarily engaging in it. So if it's in your social media feed, you're so much more likely to have those thoughts about food, the way that diet culture wants you to. So it's really creating this community that can help use that to your advantage and help you find this food freedom faster by filling your feed with just like you said, all that inspiration, that community and that guidance, because when I just think about it, my bottom line with my mission is to help people find this freedom faster, because I can't tell you how amazing it is to have my husband say, "Hey, I'm going to cook a lasagna" and I'll be like, "Sweet, that sounds delicious." And I'm going to go sit my butt on the couch while you go cook that.

And it's going to be great. That to me is so worth it.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:37:10]

Yes. And not feeling and I used to do this too, where if my husband, if David would cook, I would be like, okay what are you putting on that? And then I would be

Colleen Christensen [00:37:18]

Oh yeah.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:37:19]

are you putting that much salt in that? And I don't know how, I don't know how he didn't lose his mind, but I was a monster.

Colleen Christensen [00:37:27]

I know. I know.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:37:27]

Now he's like, "I'm cooking dinner" and I'm like, "Great."

Colleen Christensen [00:37:30]

Yeah. I have to say he's becoming quite the little chef. Like he's giving me a run for my money. But like he, every Wednesday he's okay, I'm going to cook dinner. I have no idea what that's going to be. I remember specifically one time he made Alfredo and again, I was like, "cool, I'm going to go downstairs, watch TV, you do your thing."

And I come up and ate Alfredo so delicious. And then I was putting it away. Cause if he makes dinner, I'm always like, okay honey, I'll do the dishes. So packing everything up. And I look and an entire carton of heavy whipping cream was in the (trash) , that would've freaked me out years ago. Instantly calculating you know, how many calories was that? How many grams of fat? And I was just kinda Oh, that's, it was delicious. Whatever.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:38:12]

Yep.

Colleen Christensen [00:38:12]

That moment, I was like, this is what freedom is like. And to be able to know that this tastes delicious and would I want to eat that every single day, it probably wouldn't necessarily make me feel super great to eat that much heavy whipping cream every day.

But to not stress about it and to know that my body's going to tell me when things don't feel right and what it wants and that yes, some days I'm going to crave that super rich, delicious Alfredo, and other days it's going to be like, "Hey, some carrots and hummus sounds great for a snack."

It sounds so crazy to get to that point, but it's so possible.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:38:47]

Yes, it really is. And I love that with the SociEATy, like the community that you're building, because having that sense of community really is lifesaving. I personally have found the intuitive eating process to be extremely isolating because all of my...it's just like fighting. I don't know. It just feels like I'm punching a brick wall, expecting it to crack and it's not. All of my family and all of my friends are just like "Weight Watchers" and, "Oh my God, my knees, hurt, and I'm sure it's because of my weight and my weight doesn't help and this and that."

"And I gained 10 pounds over Christmas" and I'm like, okay. And you'll lose it. You will lose it in the summer time. It's so upsetting and very lonely. So this idea that you're creating a community where people can build each other up based off of intuitive eating principles is awesome.

Colleen Christensen [00:39:44]

Absolutely. I'm so glad. So glad you think that.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:39:47]

Yeah, I do. And now, if people want to get involved, where can they go?

Colleen Christensen [00:39:51]

Yeah. So Instagram is where I am most active. I myself am @no.food.rules. Find a lot of the funny stuff there. And then the SociEATy itself also has an Instagram account. So it's @SociEATy spelled E,A,T,Y. And with those places, you can find all the updates and, links to everything there.

So I think that's always the easiest place to go and get connected and start filling your feed with all those things that are going to inspire you and help you on this journey because yes, social media can be such a downer and cause that comparisonitis, but we can also use it to our advantage and use it as a tool to help our journeys.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:40:31]

Yes. Yep, absolutely. And I will, for the listeners out there, I will pop the Instagram handles in the show notes so that you have it. And then lastly, could you just talk a little bit about your future career goals for the new year.

Colleen Christensen [00:40:51]

Yes. So we have a lot going on in the SociEATy itself. So we are doing tons of new updates, more calls, just so many more offerings in side of the actual membership. And then we are also starting a podcast ourself. So I'm super excited about that. We're going to be having a lot of different... I'll be doing solo episodes, we'll have different experts on.

And then also a lot of just real women sharing their stories as they're going through this. Because again, I always just think what would have helped me during this process. And for that, it was just knowing that I'm not alone knowing that these things that I'm thinking are these struggles that I'm going through are normal and just to have a place to go and just get that reminder that you're on the right path, that you're doing the right thing, that you're not alone.

So I'm super excited about that to launch later this month in February.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:41:41]

That's exciting. Do you have a name picked out for the podcast?

Colleen Christensen [00:41:45]

It's going to be the SociEATy Podcast. And again, be sure to follow us on Instagram. You'll get all the updates. We'll have weekly episodes and you'll be able to stay in touch there.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:41:53]

Yay. Oh, that's so exciting.

Colleen Christensen [00:41:57]

Thank you.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:41:58]

Oh, you're doing such great things. I can't thank you enough for coming on and for sharing you are amazing and have been hugely helpful in my intuitive eating journey. Even though this is the first time we are meeting face-to-face. So I hope you know that you're having a really big effect on people.

I show my husband your Tik-Toks a lot, and he's always "Yeah. That's you"

Colleen Christensen [00:42:23]

Too funny, you're the sweetest.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:42:25]

Thank you for all you do. And thank you for coming on the show today and to all the listeners out there. Get ready because now you've got another awesome podcast coming your way that you're going to get to listen to.

So yeah. Thank you.

Colleen Christensen [00:42:38]

Thank you for having me.

Living with a physical disability can come with an entire host of traumatic experiences. This week, Alyssa sits down with Megan Grannan, a warrior who was born with a rare form of dwarfism called Metatropic Dysplasia. Megan is realistic about not only the challenges she has had to face throughout her life, but also her many successes and accomplishments as a result of her refusal to ever give up!

Megan's Instagram: @littlemeg212 See Megan share her story on YouTube: Metatropic Dysplasia. Megan Elizabeth Grannan is our very special guest. - YouTube

Check out the Light After Trauma website for transcripts, other episodes, Alyssa's guest appearances, and more at: www.lightaftertrauma.com

Want to get more great content and interact with the show? Check us out on Instagram: @lightaftertrauma

We need your help! We want to continue to make great content that can help countless trauma warriors on their journey to recovery. So, please help us in supporting the podcast by becoming a recurring patron of the show via Patreon. Every bit helps!

Transcript:

Alyssa Scolari: [00:00:00]:

Hello guys, gals. And they always hope everybody is having a great start to their week. I am just popping on before this delightful episode with Megan, just to congratulate the winner of our very first giveaway. Yeah. Congratulations to Rachel. She has won the first giveaway for the Light After Trauma podcast.

So happy for her. Thank you for everybody who reached out and participated in the giveaway. If you did not win. No worries at all. We are going to be doing plenty more giveaways, where that came from. I also wanted to thank Katie Lloyd Artist, who was the donor for our first giveaway. You can find her adorable shop on Etsy.

Our next giveaway. I am really excited for if you like coffee, if you like tea, this will be the perfect giveaway for you. We are almost there. We just need a couple more hundred downloads. And in case you are just tuning in every, for every thousand downloads that the podcast gets, I am doing a new giveaway.

So yeah, share the podcast, keep on downloading, keep listening writing reviews and let's get there so we can do this next giveaway. Thanks everyone.

Hello hello everyone. Welcome to another episode of the Light After Trauma podcast. I'm your host, Alyssa Scolari and I am excited to have another episode of awesome content for you here today. We have very special guest Megan Grannan with us today. So I have known...M egan and I went to high school together.

And I want to say, you were a year younger than me, right?

Megan Grannan: [00:02:11]

Yeah.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:02:12]

Okay. So Megan was a year younger than me. We managed the basketball team together, right?

Megan Grannan: [00:02:19]

Yes we did.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:02:21]

Yup,Yup. So we managed the basketball team together in high school. And I reached out and asked Megan to come on the show because even the Megan that I knew in high school versus the Megan that I see now is a very different Megan.

And in terms of somebody who has taken a lot of hardships in her life and has turned them into beautiful thing after beautiful thing. Megan is the epitome of that. So I will turn it over to you, Megan, so that you can explain more. Thank you again for coming on the show.

Megan Grannan: [00:03:01]

Thank you so much for having me.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:03:04]

Yeah. In your presence. I'm a little bit like, Oh, like this is a woman that is so strong. You're extremely inspiring and reading you coming out and talking about what life is like for you has helped me personally, in my own recovery, because I see your resiliency. And while you may not always feel that way you're probably like, okay, but every day is so tough.

Sometimes I think that it's important for you to know right off the bat in this interview that you are inspiring people and you are helping people to get through really tough things in life. So

Megan Grannan: [00:03:44]

That means so much because if I can just help one person, that's my goal in life. That's just even with the kids and just help one of them, I feel accomplished.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:03:56]

You're doing it. You're doing it. So do you want to start off with, because you also wrote an incredible piece. It was absolutely beautiful on your birth story?

Megan Grannan: [00:04:11]

I did. On love what matters.

Yeah. Can you share a little bit about your birth story so the listeners can understand.

Yeah, no problem. My parents got married at a young age.

My mom's a NICU nurse and my dad was a UPS driver and my mom always knew medically complex babies and all this, and they both wanted children right away. And that didn't happen. So my moms had to have medicine that helped get her pregnant and she had to give shots herself and stuff like that.

And she told my dad that she was only going to go through three rounds because they miscarried a couple of times and they were in the process of adopting and it was, but the mom came back for the baby that they were going to adopt. And she said that was so emotionally hard. So she didn't want to do that again.

And so she said three more times, you got three shots for this. So the first time she miscarried and the second time she got pregnant, Twins. And it's crazy to think, but they said that she could have between one and ten babies. And she was like that's not happening, not to them. So she did say if she had more than four, that she couldn't carry because she knew that they wouldn't go to term and everything else.

So she was happy. It was just two. And as time went on, they saw that I was smaller, but they didn't know anything. But they thought it was twin to twin transfusion, which they saw that it wasn't. That meant we weren't identical. So they just said I was small and she was hospitalized for her whole pregnancy because she was on bedrest and she couldn't keep anything down and everything else.

My dad would go to visit her every night in the hospital. Cause he worked in Philly, but he had to go home every night as well. It was crazy. She does want it to get past 30 weeks because then she knew that we would have survived. And so she got to 32 weeks. And they knew that my sister was a girl, but I always still today they say I'm very stubborn.

So she knew off the bat that she was having a girl. So the Monday before I was born, she found out I was a girl. And she was like, of course, because then nursery could have been pink, but instead it's a gender neutral nursery now. So even back then, the way I was. But anyway, and two days later, her water broke and when she had us and I broke the water.

I think I was ready for the world, the world wasn't ready for me. But anyway, yeah, that's just the story of my life. So she had to have a C-section and it was a massive snow storm. And my dad just got home and he got the call and he turned around and headed back. My mom was in the operating room and my dad just made it.

And so I was being born, but my mom saw me and she saw that I had triangle face and she knew something was wrong and she didn't get to see my sister, but they didn't find out. Cause she got sick, but they didn't find out that there was anything really wrong. So the following Monday, because it was the weekend nobody's gonna diagnose.

So the geneticist came up and said, I think that your daughter has Metatropic-Dysplasia, which is a very rare form of dwarfism. And then there's was only about a hundred hundred people in the world that have it, which is crazy. And they'd said, which hospital do you want to go to? And my mom chose DuPont, and the geneticist said good cause that's it a orthopedic hospital.

And so I've been going there all my life, but she started reading the literature and stuff like that. They said I wouldn't live past two. And my mom met with the doctors and of course she didn't want to get attached to me because if she was going to lose me. So it was all all in emotions, all there.

And the doctor said, no, she's going to be fine. That was a relief. And she, my parents raised me as I could do anything and anything I wanted, but obviously the one thing I wanted to do was play soccer and that was not happening, but that's the context for it. So I couldn't play. I know that's weird, but just things, I get everything from ice skating to dancing, horseback riding, to managing the basketball team with you.

Yeah. So growing up was pretty normal, but I never wanted to accept myself that I was disabled. And if you called me that, then I would get offended and I would get in your face and say, I'm not disabled. But even when my mom got the handicap placard card, I did not want her parking there. I didn't want anything, but looking back, It's only because I thought I was like everybody else.

And and surgeries were part of my life. I missed a lot of school due to surgeries and that put me in the special education program and I fought my way to get out of there in sixth grade. I did. And that was crazy because it's. You look back and you think that I really did that. Did I really want that?

And I really did, but a teacher did say to me in sixth grade. Oh, you'll never make it once. Yeah. And like you think there, you sit there and think what kind of teacher would say that it's

Alyssa Scolari: [00:10:19]

That's awful.

Megan Grannan: [00:10:21]

It's awful. And I think that's why I don't ever, I always say you can't judge a student by who they are.

You have to get to know them. And you can't just say anything about the kids. So I went to college, I went to community college. And I was like, Oh I'm not getting into college because I got into one college, but I wasn't going out of the state. So when my mom took me to community college and said, "here you go."

And I was like, "what's this I'm not coming here."And she's" Are you going to get a job or are you going to school?" I said, "I'll go to school." But that honestly was the best thing for me, because I grew as a person. I became myself and I realized that I could, I didn't have everybody like hovering over me . what's going on?

What do you need? You were like everybody else sitting here that you were disabled, they didn't care. Yeah.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:11:20]

You had a sense of like independence for where people, right? Like you said, weren't hovering over you. They weren't making this massive deal of your disability.

Megan Grannan: [00:11:32]

Yeah. I get it in school settings, but at the same time, you have to let them read.

And I didn't like high school and everybody said, "Oh, I thought you loved .." no, I didn't like high school. I hated high school. I couldn't wait to get out of high school. I just needed to get out. And then everybody's: you're going to wish you were back in high school. I don't wish that at all.

Maybe I wish to go back to that age. But that, but at the same time, I didn't start doing things until I was older. Like I didn't drive then. So it didn't matter okay, you got your license, but I didn't like, so it didn't matter.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:12:16]

There's been such a drastic transformation, where you went from like you said, and maybe in high school, you are still in that spot of I don't want to be called disabled.

I don't want to be labeled as different than anybody else. I just want to be the same. Yeah. And it was probably extremely frustrating because like you said, you were seeing other people getting their license and playing like the sports that you wanted to play. So I'm sure high school was totally miserable.

Megan Grannan: [00:12:45]

It was. So if I told somebody, then I'd be like maybe you need to talk to someone. No, I could talk to anybody, but you're not going to understand unless you know what I'm talking about. And another thing is social media. Wasn't like it is today. They were like, we could go to support groups or this...

Yeah. But I wasn't ready for that. And then also in high school, a lot of the teachers are like we want you to share your story. And that's something I didn't want to, I didn't want to share my story at the time. And everybody knew I had surgeries, but it's just I didn't want to. So just when somebody contacted me about a post I made and they said, you need to share your story.

And I said, maybe it is time. So that's when it became time. And I was actually in Pennsylvania doing adapted driving lessons. When I did that.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:13:50]

And this was how long ago?

Megan Grannan: [00:13:51]

So two years ago, wait, a year ago I shared. And it's crazy because nobody knew really not the true me, but the true me because they didn't know like how I felt about certain things.

They didn't know. And even my parents didn't know, and I watched my twin sister go to college and go away and live her dream. And here I'm still living at home, and I'm watching this all unfold and you're like what's next? What are you doing? I, and then everybody also had an opinion on what I needed to do for college.

What my major should have been. No, it's not your opinion. So I became a teacher and that was the best thing I could've ever done. Yes.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:14:42]

So what age do you teach?

Megan Grannan: [00:14:45]

Kindergarten. So right now I teach Pre-K, but I usually am in kindergarten and they're the best. And. So they're very blunt obviously. And they'll be like why are you so small?

And you're like, so we always do a lesson on everybody's different and how everybody's different. And you read a book, then they write a sentence on how they're different. And then I'll share my story with them and they get very protective over me and you hear them in the hallway and it's so sweet and...

looking at it. I'm like, Oh, wow. So it's just showing them acceptance and who people are and it's okay to be different and to accept yourself. And I always say to them, if you can take one thing, I know they're in kindergarten, but one thing away from me, I want you to never give up, just don't give up.

And I said, yeah,

Alyssa Scolari: [00:15:46]

They clearly are already getting so much from you. In addition to that, because, and whew, just hearing you talk about that and say, that gets me so choked up because look at the ripple effect that you're having on little kids. You're teaching kids at some of their most malleable year

to be all accepting of others, no matter how different one might look and to know that all people look different, all bodies are different. So you have your like, kindergarteners that are out there, yeah. Yeah, that's right. That is amazing thing. It's amazing. It makes me incredibly emotional because you are taking all of the hardships that you went through and you are actually changing, not just one person, like you said earlier, but like the generations of people.

Megan Grannan: [00:16:37]

And that's what I love about teaching any. And everybody's Oh, it's just kindergarten. No, they understand. They understand way more than they think.

And then they were like, what do you do all day? We don't play like we are talking about things. It's fun. And so last year, like I fought for a student, I knew he needed and he would just come over and hug me. And he was like, miss G, I love you. All I can say back is I love you too, because I don't know if he's getting a hug at home.

I don't know what's happening. And so that's why I say you never judge a kid. I don't care if the kid's off the wall. You never judge a kid. I don't know if they're getting any love at home. I don't know. But with overcoming things, everybody's:" you are just so happy and positive all the time" and no, I'm not.

No people don't understand that either. I've gone into places that I don't think I would have ever been in. Like I had a job that wasn't treating me nice. And so it was awful and I would come home and cry every day and other situations I would just sob for months. And you don't realize it. What people do to you, just regular people.

And some of these people will be the closest people to you that do this stuff too. And I can't, sometimes I just can't. And so I will shut down and I'll cry. And, but with pain, I take myself away from everybody because I can't let other people see me in pain. And. It's just tough sometimes and people don't understand that.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:18:35]

Yeah I think it's important that you're on here and you're, we're speaking about it because it's not just, right, it's not that life is always like rainbows and puppies and butterflies. Yes, you've overcome so much, but it has been so difficult for you every step of the way. And like you said, even people that are closest to you sometimes say things and do things that are extremely hurtful.

Megan Grannan: [00:19:00]

Yes. And you don't know what to say, or you don't know what to do about it, but you're just sitting there and it could be somebody who's known me all my life. And then you're like, what. What just happened? And my parents have given up a lot to help me get where I am today. And my mom's been the driving force behind this whole thing.

And so like hip replacement, this is getting harder and harder, but every surgery, I don't know what, like emotionally I'm fine. I'll say I'm fine, but I'm actually not, but I'm fine though. That's when everybody says she's not fine that she's saying I'm fine. I'm fine. I'm fine. People know. Yeah. You've seen her face.

She's not mine say you're fine all you want. But so with my first hip replacement, this is when I realized things are starting to change, but my mom was a mess and she kept saying, You don't realize how big of a surgery this is. And I said, it's fine. What is it? Everybody gets a hip replacement. And she's so the nurse called me and said, this is a big thing.

And I kept saying, I'm fine. It's fine. I didn't do any research. I didn't do anything. Everybody says, you're fine. So fine. So before we got there, my mom was blasting Taylor Swift, and I was like, "what are we doing?" And she was like "I just want to listen to this song." And I was like, all all right. And so I said to her, can you take off your sunglasses?

We're in the parking garage now? And she's no, I can't. And I was like, okay. And. I was like, Oh, this is bigger than I thought it is. So yeah, it hit me. And the next thing really hit me. She's ...can you get out your phone so I can take your picture? I said, why. Am I gonna die. And she was like, you never know.

And I'm like, Oh my God. That's when it hit me. When we got up to the holding area, she just laid across me and sobbed and I thought I was going to get sick. Now I can't say anything because she's upset. I'm like, Oh my gosh. Oh my God. But it changed because now she gets emotional and I have to be her support system.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:21:33]

Which can be tough for you when you're, you have had, how many surgeries have you had at this point? I'm sure you're keeping track,

Megan Grannan: [00:21:38]

27 or 28.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:21:42]

Then you had your hip replacement when?

Megan Grannan: [00:21:44]

So I've had both hips replaced, but that one, I was 21 and I woke up and I was like, apparently I said to my mom, "you lied to me."

And she was like, "I lied about what," about how much pain I was in because everybody told her it's no pain. You're fine. She'll be fine. The femur broke and I was supposed to move on campus. And I said," I don't understand how did this happen?", so of course I sobbed and I was off my feet for six weeks. And I was like, this has to happen.

I cannot not go. So I entered for physical rehab and they said, I don't think you should go. And I said, "I'm going." You need to discharge me by this date because I'm going.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:22:35]

There's that stubbornness.

Megan Grannan: [00:22:37]

Yeah. It is. Everybody's like "I don't know why you're so stubborn. Why you don't..." I said, "I paid for that bedding. That bedding is non-returnable,"

It was .Like, I don't care. And they were like you can use it next year. I was like no, my friends need me there. I got discharged on a Friday, the following Sunday, I was moved to dorm. So should I have push myself that hard? No. Would I do it again? Yes.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:23:10]

But I was going to say, what'd you do it again?

Absolutely. And I, this idea of like stubbornness is....I think sometimes there can be like a negative connotation to being stubborn, but your stubbornness, or in other words, like your willfulness, the way in which you never give up and you never just take it is ultimately what has helped you to thrive.

Megan Grannan: [00:23:38]

Yeah. It has been, I don't know if I didn't have that in me where I'd probably be sitting in the corner somewhere. Not doing anything.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:23:48]

Yes. You are driving. So you got your driver's license, like I'm just. At what point in your life did you decide, because you only got your driver's license about a year ago? I think you said.

Megan Grannan: [00:24:02]

Yes. So I actually started right around 16, started like doing a...I did a driver evaluation where to see if I could drive. And they said, yes. So then I had to wait until I was 18 with the state to help with funding. I couldn't afford the lessons that they were offering. So they sent me up with adaptive driving program.

And then, so this is an 11 year journey here, but that's a driving program. So I did that for about a year and then literally one session away from getting my driver's license and my hip went bad and I couldn't sit. So I knew I had to give it up. So then the guy also said, I want you to start doing another program, do another system.

All right. All okay. But then it was college, surgery, college, surgery, which was fine, which is fine, but I still wanted to drive. I'd still want it to be independent. I don't want to be driven by my parents everywhere. Still.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:25:16]

No, you want to take matters into your own hands and have as much control over your life as you possibly can.

Megan Grannan: [00:25:23]

Exactly. And I want to be independent and it's crazy to think that people would want to keep that away from me. So then I fought with the state for this other program that last year, over the summer, it was a six week intense program. Did I want to spend my summer there for two weeks? No, but I knew I had to.

So it was six hours every day driving like a joystick system. So it's almost like a wheelchair system. It's amazing to see what they can do to help you drive. But people don't know about it. People don't know about all this stuff. People don't know that there's programs and state offers that will help you.

I wouldn't know. Yeah, the state helped me pay for my car. It's just amazing to see what you can do, but you do have to fight for yourself in that respect. And so this is a huge step of independence. And then I said the next step, I'm moving out. So

Alyssa Scolari: [00:26:26]

That's your goal, right? That's your next goal?

Megan Grannan: [00:26:28]

That's my next goal.

And I want to finish my master's and with driving. I will say this after I bought the car and I did everything with the car, people were texting my mom saying, are you really going to let her drive? And of course I was like, "why is everybody in my business now?" If they didn't think I was capable, they wouldn't hand me a car.

They would have never said yes. So I don't understand. And then you have all these negative people and stuff like that. So I always say, stay in your lane and if you can't, then don't say anything to me at all.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:27:07]

Yup. If you can't be supportive of what I'm doing, then don't say anything at all. That's one of those things where people think that they're being concerned, but that's not their place.

That is something that has to be celebrated. Like you look at you, like you are a driving, you were told you, you would only live to be about two. You're about to be 28, right?

Megan Grannan: [00:27:33]

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. So looking back now, when you look back on your life and the last, almost three decades, Everything that you have been through.

Do you feel more that you identify as being somebody who has a disability because I've seen through your social media, that you tend to embrace it more like this is what I have, but just because I have it doesn't make me any less important than anybody else.

Yes, soI have two pages. So I think you're on my private page, but I have another page. Disability World, and I've connected with so many people and it's so amazing just to talk to them and yes we might not have the same thing, but they understand where I'm coming from. They get it. And it's just amazing to talk to them. And did I ever think I would? No! Because I really did not want anything to do with it, but it's not a world to be ashamed of at all.

It's not like you see the ADA, you see everything that, and personally, my goal would be to fight for this stuff. And that's where I want to hit next. But I don't know why people put a label on everything. There shouldn't be a label on anything personally. And it's a huge pet peeve of mine. Special needs. I am not special needs.

I don't have special needs. I have accommodations. I do things differently. I'm not special needs. That's a huge thing in life.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:29:19]

Yes. And that's that like where. And I think this is so important. We all need to be aware of what's called like linguistic evolution. So changing our language, you are not special needs.

You need, you are a human being who needs accommodations, different accommodations. You know what? I need different accommodations. Like we all do. I haven't met a single person on this earth who doesn't need accommodations. Yeah, I think that's a great point.

Megan Grannan: [00:29:49]

Like why are we calling these kids special needs and what are they going to grow up and say, Oh, I'm special.

No, they just need accommodations. I'm sorry. No, I don't. And the disability world is always changing and the things out there are crazy what's going on. But I truly believe there's more fighting to be done. Yeah.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:30:15]

Absolutely. And you are going to fight that fight.

Megan Grannan: [00:30:19]

Yeah, probably everybody's Oh, here she goes at man. I'm like, yeah, that's a problem.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:30:26]

Oh, I love it. Yep. I love it. You're like kicking butt.

Megan Grannan: [00:30:31]

Nobody ever sees that side of me because everybody says you're so reserved and everything else I am. But at the same time, I'm not.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:30:40]

You're a fighter. You're a fighter. You've been a fighter since the moment you came into this world. And like you said, maybe the world wasn't ready for you.

You were ready, but you were ready for this world and you're ready to change it. And you are doing that by showing other people that having a disability is not the end of life.

Megan Grannan: [00:31:02]

No. And I've been called crazy by doctors because I think there's something wrong. No, there is something wrong with my body and don't call me crazy.

I'm sorry. I know my body and I wouldn't tell you I was in pain if I wasn't and that's the thing, doctors need to know their place too.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:31:21]

Yes. There are lots of doctors out there. There are some phenomenal doctors out there, but also lots of doctors who tend to not listen, which is very frustrating.

Megan Grannan: [00:31:35]

Yeah. So I'll say this now, but this summer I have to go through a whole hip revision on my left side. So they had to take it out and put a new one in. So that's the next battle, but I will be ready for my best friend's wedding in October

Alyssa Scolari: [00:31:53]

For your best friend's wedding in October?

Megan Grannan: [00:31:56]

Yeah. But it's just crazy.

Cause nobody knows what those online see.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:32:02]

Yeah. Yep. And how hard you fight every day.

Megan Grannan: [00:32:06]

It's just emotionally some people think, Oh yeah. It's rainbows and butterflies. Nope. Nope. It's hard. It's draining.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:32:17]

It's draining. Yes. I hope that it's helpful to share your story. Like now that you're in a place where you're ready to, and you have been.

I hope that helps you. And of course, you're always going to get comments from people that are not helpful and that are more like pity oriented, which is extremely frustrating because you're like, I don't need you to pity me. I don't need you don't get Amy,

Megan Grannan: [00:32:45]

but

Alyssa Scolari: [00:32:45]

But at the same time, people are seeing it and people are very inspired by it. Does that bring you a little bit of relief?

Megan Grannan: [00:32:53]

It does because as long as I can help people or one person, like I said it does. And seeing that, I could show a picture like right after surgery, like it's okay. Because would I've done that years ago?

No. I have grown into a person that nobody has ever thought. Being, like I said, out of high school in a way, not saying everybody, but the way some people and doing my thing and living on campus and Stockton redid a whole apartment for me. It's crazy to think. And it just happened to fall in my lap at the right time.

Teachers thought I shouldn't be a teacher because I was disabled. No, I don't think you would tell me.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:33:45]

You make that decision. Not other people only you make that decision.

Megan Grannan: [00:33:50]

Exactly. And I sobbed in my advisor's office because I was having a problem with the professor and she's "don't do this to me again"

and "don't you can't" and I went home and cried because she said. So I don't cry in front of other people. I don't it's I wait and wait until it built up. And then I just cried and she was like, you don't cry, you don't do anything. And that's when I saw the emotion. It's hard sometimes and people don't realize it.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:34:20]

They don't, but I appreciate you coming on here and talking about it and being so open.

Megan Grannan: [00:34:30]

I would thank you. It was such an honor to be asked to come on you.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:34:34]

If people want to learn more about your stories is there a certain place that they can go certain website they can go to

Megan Grannan: [00:34:44]

Instagram is where it's at mostly @littlemeg212 is my handle.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:34:52]

Its's @littlemeg212?

Megan Grannan: [00:34:55]

Yes and Love What Matters. And if you just type in Megan Grannan on Google it all comes up.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:35:07]

Okay, perfect. I will, for the listeners out there, I will link all of that in the show notes and the private Facebook page. And thank you. Thank you again for sharing a very emotional and very inspiring story.

Megan Grannan: [00:35:24]

Thank you so much.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:35:27]

Thanks for listening everyone for more information about today's episode and to sign up for the Light After Trauma newsletter, head over to my website at Alyssa Scolari dot com. The really great thing about being a part of this newsletter is that not only do you get weekly updates on new podcast episodes and blog posts, but you also get access to the private face.

The community as well as access to all sorts of insider tips, resources, and infographs that supplement what we talk about on the show. You also can connect with me and other trauma warriors. I'm super active on the Facebook community. And I look forward to talking with you.

This week Alyssa sits down with Sofia Zapiola, the founder of Active and Anxious, a blog and wellness account focused on mental health awareness. Sofia shares her battle with anxiety, depression and PTSD as well as the hope and healing that has come from her struggles.

Find Sofia on Instagram @activeandanxious and at her blog Active and Anxious ~ living and thriving with mental illness!

Check out the Light After Trauma website for transcripts, other episodes, Alyssa's guest appearances, and more at: www.lightaftertrauma.com

Want to get more great content and interact with the show? Check us out on Instagram: @lightaftertrauma

We need your help! We want to continue to make great content that can help countless trauma warriors on their journey to recovery. So, please help us in supporting the podcast by becoming a recurring patron of the show via Patreon. Every bit helps!

Transcript:

Alyssa Scolari: [00:00:23] Hey, everyone just popping on before we get into today's discussion with Sophia to let you know that we did it. We smashed the 3000 downloads goal on the light after trauma podcast. So to celebrate as promised we are having our very first giveaway. So this giveaway is actually a replica of an exact painting that I have framed in my bedroom.

So part of trauma recovery, especially if you are in recovery from sexual abuse is learning to love our bodies and be fully in touch with all of its parts. We are letting go of shame. We are accepting ourselves, loving ourselves and finding beauty in our bodies. Thus the first giveaway, we have a beautiful abstract painting with very bright colors.

It is a vulva portrait, all about self-love and body positivity. The artist is,, her name is Katie Lloyd. She has an Etsy shop and her Instagram handle is Yoni Art by Katie Lloyd, you can find her on Instagram. If you just go onto my Instagram, which is Alyssa_Scolari_LPC. You also can see pictures of the artwork where you, and you will have the opportunity to win.

We are going to be calling a winner this Friday, February 12th. So, what do you need to do to win? It's very simple. All you need to do is leave a in review on the podcast. You can do that on any platform, Apple podcast, Stitcher, Spotify, et cetera. And then simply email me or direct message me on any type of social media.

And let me know that you would like to be entered. I also should mention that the dimensions for the artwork are 12 inches by 10 inches and the frame, because you will see in the picture that it has a frame around it that is not included, but this picture is absolutely beautiful. And if it's not your style, not your thing.

No worries. Because for every thousand downloads that we get, I will be doing another giveaway. So stay tuned.

What's up everybody. Welcome to another fabulous episode of the Light After Trauma podcast. I am your host Alyssa Scolari. It is February. We are recording this in January, but it will be February by the time this comes out and I have to say, January has already been quite a month for this podcast in terms of breaking records.

I honestly just can't thank you all enough. In the month of January, we have had already well over a thousand downloads, and that is in the four months of the podcasts launch. We had, averaged around like 300, 400 downloads throughout the month. So to head into 2021 with downloads in the thousands is just like extremely humbling.

So thank you. Thank you. Thank you. A thousand times over for all of the support, I love this podcast. It has been, I think, truly one of the gifts that I didn't even know I was giving myself when I started the podcast. I thought that if five people could hear me, then I was doing something good.

And what I didn't realize is that I was helping myself just as much as I'm helping other people. So again, just thank you for all of the support. I have with us today. Sofia Zapiola. I said it right? All right, I'm on a roll. So Sofia is the founder of Active and Anxious, which is a blog and wellness account focused on mental health awareness.

She holds a BA in psychology from the University of Minnesota and is a trained crisis counselor through Crisis Text Line. She has been featured in Self magazine and was a guest panelist for the University of Minnesota Medical School, where she spoke to the first year class on trauma informed care by sharing her own experiences with depression, anxiety, and PTSD.

She hopes to de-stigmatize mental illness and improve the accessibility of mental health treatment and show others that they are not alone. So without further ado. Hello, Sofia. Welcome.

Sofia Zapiola:[00:05:19] Hi, thanks so much for having me.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:05:23] To the listeners out there, I found Sofia on Instagram and I've been following her for a little while and I just love, I love your work. I love the work that you're doing. So can you talk a little bit about how like just the roots of Active and Anxious and where that came from?

Sofia Zapiola:[00:05:43] Totally. So I guess it stems back to, I was 12 years old when I was diagnosed with generalized anxiety disorder and clinical depression. And I didn't really know what that meant. I'm lucky in that my mom has a psychology background. And so she understood what that meant at least but I started Googling all things related to anxiety and depression.

And one thing I was Googling was celebrities with generalized anxiety disorder. I wanted to see some sort of depiction in the media and the closest I could find was that Brittany Spears had bipolar disorder. And so I just felt really alone. I didn't know anyone else that was going through what I was going through.

At least not my age or someone relatable or accessible to me. And as I grew up and just learned more about anxiety, depression, as my friends started get diagnosed later in life. I realized that this is something that most people, when they first get diagnosed, they feel really alone. And so when I was 22, I decided to be the person that I needed back when I was 12 and start this Instagram account, that kind of models itself after lifestyle influencers, in terms of the pretty pictures and these long captions and everything, but was talking about mental health awareness and my experiences.

And it just grew from there. And the response has been really positive, which is awesome. And I'm just really grateful that I'm able to do this work and be the person that I needed back then.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:07:13] I love that you say that because that's something that I say to my patients all of the time to the people that I see in therapy. And that's something that I also try to say to myself is that I need to be the person that I needed. And so for you to, come in hot, You're in your early twenties, right?

Sofia Zapiola:[00:07:31] I'm 24 right now. Yeah.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:07:33] Oh, you are a rock star. So to be in your early twenties and to have this level of understanding of mental health and this fire in you to de-stigmatize, which I think is exactly what your page does. You're very candid. And when I say your page, I meant your Instagram page, but just like Active and Anxious as a whole, that's what you do.

You're very candid. You're very open. So what, in 12 years you've developed into this person. I know that may seem like a long time, but to be 24. And to just have the understanding that you have is incredible.

Sofia Zapiola:[00:08:16] I think a lot of it stems back to just my mom was a licensed therapist in Argentina. She doesn't practice in the U S she works more in social work. She did some work in child welfare, but just overall this psychology background, she works with a lot of people who deal with severe mental illness. And so she knew exactly what to do when her daughter was diagnosed with things, she knew to take her daughter in, to see a therapist when I was showing certain signs of depression and anxiety that other parents may not have been able to recognize if they didn't have that background. And so because of that, I was able to work with a lot of different therapists as I was growing up.

And I became really interested in psychology and studied that in college. Just cause I was so passionate about mental health and just learning more about it and being able to educate others, I became a crisis counselor and I almost just became that person that people knew as oh, if I have questions about mental health or if my friend or my partner is struggling and I don't know how to help them, like I can ask Sofia.

And so I don't want to say it became my identity because it's definitely not my entire identity, but it was just like a part of me was. The person that knew things about mental health. And, but it's the culmination of all those experiences I had with therapists growing up, being able to study at this amazing psychology program in Minnesota, working as a crisis counselor, since I was 18 years old, just all together, created this like perfect storm where I don't feel like the ultimate expert because I don't have a PhD in it or anything like that. But if anything, I feel like some people are able to relate to that more because I'm honestly just like this somewhat normal person that has one foot in the field, so to speak.

But when I talk about it, it's very candid. It's very sort of layman's terms. If that makes sense.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:10:20] Yes. The way that you speak about it in all of your posts. And one of the things that I love the most about your account, and I am going to link her social media handles in the show notes and in the Facebook page, her handle is Active and Anxious. And one of the things I love the most about the posts is that you don't just touch on anxiety and depression. You touch on everything that is in between that can trigger anxiety and depression. You touch on boundaries, setting boundaries with family members like around the holidays. You've talked about body positivity, body image. You've talked about your, so your process of you are fairly recently diagnosed with diabetes, correct?

Sofia Zapiola:[00:11:18] Yes. So I. Let's see as diagnosed with pre-diabetes in fall of 2018, just like right after I graduated college and then full type two diabetes, whatnot in that following February. So February, 2019, and that was honestly a process full of guilt and shame because you don't expect to be 22 and have type two diabetes.

I was exercising four times a week. I didn't have the healthiest diet, but I had the same diet as like most college students do. And it was just, I almost went into the spiral of like guilt and shame. And the people that knew, had this advice for me, that just always felt so condescending in terms of telling me what I should do in terms of my diet or exercise.

I ended up posting about it because it was the same thing as before I was searching, like people with type two diabetes on Instagram. And all I was finding was either weight loss accounts or nutritionists, like trying to reach people with type two diabetes. And so it was so scary to say, like

Alyssa Scolari: [00:12:26] I can't even imagine.

Sofia Zapiola:[00:12:26] I'm 22 years old and I have this disease that you associate with old people and like negative health outcomes and all these things. But I was getting messages from people being like me too. You and I literally have no one to talk to you about it because I tried to talk to my friends and family that don't have it. And it just, their advice just comes off as condescending.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:12:48] Yeah. Yes. There is such a stigma around type two diabetes that actually people aren't talking about that I don't truly think even hit home for me until you started sharing it. And I was like, Oh crap. Yeah, people really do have that horrible stigma. And when you talk about the guilt and shame, how did you manage to, I don't want to say pull yourself out of that because I don't know if we can pull ourselves out of guilt and shame as much as we can, push ourselves through it.

So how did you manage to do that?

Sofia Zapiola:[00:13:23] The two things that I can think of that I think made the most difference where number one, I did a lot of research and discovered that it was basically genetic. It was more a matter of when I was going to get diabetes and not if, and so stemming from that, I made a list of good things that like came out of this diagnosis.

So I think the statistic is that like one in three adults is pre-diabetic, but very few of them actually know it. And so I said, I know about this and I know about this early, so I can make sure that I'm taking, whatever precautions or procedures that I need to so that this isn't like a huge surprise and a lot more severe when I'm older.

I'm lucky to know that I have it. I'm lucky to have healthcare that allowed me to get tested for it at this age, I'm lucky to have continuous health care so that I can consult with a physician continuously. And so just realizing this is not the end and this is also not all my fault. And I don't mean to push all of the blame off because it's so much more nuanced than that, but just realizing that this could be a more sort of positive thing in my life. And it still is pretty hard. Like more of my friends now know that I have diabetes. I like am much more candid about mentioning it a lot of times though, people assume it's type one until I specify. And so they'll ask me questions about things that are specific to type one diabetes.

I'm like, I can't answer that. But hopefully just cause I think my generation, like more and more people are going to get diagnosed. And so I think it's going to be similar to my experience with anxiety where, like I found out about it five, 10 years before my peers did. So if I have the advantage of knowing early, then at least I can do something to help all the people that come later.

So maybe they don't have that same sort of spiral of guilt and shame.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:15:33] Yeah, exactly. Did you find that...so just going back to, when you said that you had lots of people reaching out to you that were like, me too, this happened to me too. I was diagnosed with this as well, and I have nobody to talk to did that also help to bring you out of the guilt and the shame.

Sofia Zapiola:[00:15:52] I think so, even if it's more, just a thing of, if I'm going to deal with this, it's helping people .That's ultimately all I can ask for, I tend to always focus on the positive. I learned a long time ago that focusing on the negative or complaining just does not work for me. And it's not the type of lifestyle that I want to lead, but being able to have those reassurances and especially when I make those really scary posts that I'm like, who is going to see this?

What are they going to think about this, to be able to see that. There are people that saw it and it really made a difference for them. And it really resonated with them is what I'm truly hoping to achieve.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:16:37] Yeah, you are vulnerable in ways that are so helpful to others. And it's incredible that you are able to do that and you have this personal and professional experience, which I think really makes you like a powerhouse in this field. And so you are, you work for the Crisis Text Line.

Sofia Zapiola:[00:17:06] I used to volunteer for them. I stopped at one point in college where my mental health was getting really bad. So I felt that I wasn't able to help others. And so I went through the training when I was 18 years old and my first semester of college, it was a 40 hour training. And then I volunteered consistently for about two years.

And so I think if I look at the statistics, it's, I'd had like more than 200 conversations with people that texted in crisis. And so that was super fulfilling and also just really it opened my eyes in terms of people love to gatekeep what a crisis should be, or what qualifies as a crisis and Crisis Textline is very much, if it's a crisis to you, it's a crisis to us.

And, I think that maybe your situation objectively isn't as bad as another one that doesn't mean it's not valid. That doesn't mean that you don't deserve to share your feelings and get support. And so just being able to talk to people that are going through things that might seem very small to others, but being able to see how this is like this thing that might seem small to us is truly blowing up their lives was I think really great in terms of my general understanding of how we all deal with mental health and how mental health treatment, and needs to be able to address all sorts of issues.

And also just to be able to de-stigmatize all sorts of issues and not just the things that you objectively look at and go, Oh, that's terrible.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:18:46] Yes, that is one of the most profound statements. And to the listeners out there, I encourage you to hit pause. Go back 30 seconds and listen to it again, hit pause, go back 30 seconds and listen to it again, because that is one of the most validating statements that we can tell ourselves. And we can tell others because I think that there's like this objective understanding of what it is to be in a crisis.

And I don't even know where that comes from, perhaps just like society. And we tend to beat ourselves up. And judge others as well as a result of this idea that only certain things qualify as a crisis. Whereas a crisis is different. It's more about perception and less about reality and more about emotions.

And it's, if somebody is in a crisis, death or crisis, and that's valid and. I don't know, part of me wonders that if we all had that understanding and that like piece of knowledge, that just because this may not be a crisis for you doesn't mean it's not a crisis for me and vice versa, maybe life would be just a little bit less difficult.

Sofia Zapiola:[00:20:01] I think it kind of connects to PTSD and how that has historically been treated and continues to evolve. Cause like it came from Shell Shock Syndrome. So it was associated with veterans and people who had been in combat situations. And now I think there's more of a wide understanding of people that have been through situations of like violence or assault that weren't associated with war can also have PTSD.

I still have friends that have gone through, sexual abuse and have doctors tell them like, Oh, you can't have PTSD it's just for veterans. But at that point, I think that's on the doctor. That's not on society as a whole.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:20:42] Absolutely. I lose my mind when people say that these days I'm like, hold up, sit down. Let's talk.

Sofia Zapiola:[00:20:48] But I think just people beginning to realize that you can have an overall, like great life and just little events that you may not have thought anything of at the time can affect you years later and give you post-traumatic stress symptoms is what I tend to call it. If I don't want to label it as like PTSD as a whole.

And so I see a lot of people that struggle with guilt because they don't understand why they're depressed because they've had a really great life. And I think that translates over as well, because I also, like I had a very privileged upbringing. I have parents that are incredibly understanding of my mental health issues and that doesn't necessarily mean that I didn't have situations during my childhood that were invalidating or somewhat traumatizing that I didn't really realize until later. And so as more and more people begin to realize that you don't need to have this big catastrophic thing happen to you for your sort of post-traumatic stress to be valid, or just to justify taking care of yourself and doing healing activities that you might associate with PTSD.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:21:58] Yeah, absolutely. And you also are in recovery from PTSD as well, correct?

Sofia Zapiola:[00:22:05] Yes. So I was sexually assaulted when I was 18 years old in college. I did not realize it until I was 20. So about a year and a half later. And I did get pretty significant treatment for it. I did EMDR, which I highly recommend. I have a post on my blog all about my experience with it because people ask me all the time what it was like, or if it was worth it.

And so I totally say yes, I think that was a major turning point for me in terms of, I used to not be able to go to the grocery store. Without, if someone got too close to me, I would freak out and have to leave, which when coronavirus started, I was like, finally, everyone understands what it's like to be me and get anxious when people stand too close to the group.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:22:49] Six feet apart!

Sofia Zapiola:[00:22:51] Exactly. And so after EMDR, I was really able to detach from that thing of being terrified of just everything around me, but there are still just times nowadays where people get too close to me, people touch me and I'm not expecting it. And it just sorta sets me off. Sometimes it's one day things will set me off another day I'll be totally fine with it. And so it's a process and I feel like I'm lucky that I'm past what I would consider, like a turning point where it's not really interfering with my life on a daily basis, but it definitely has been an entire process.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:23:28] It's such a process. It can be a lifelong process I think, you know depending and it's just that concept of what you say of like how some days are okay. And some days you're not, I think that's really important as well for people to understand in PTSD recovery or post traumatic stress symptoms, which is that just because it's okay to be touching somebody one day doesn't mean it's going to be okay every day. It's like this roller coaster for sure.

Sofia Zapiola:[00:24:02] And it also just the way that it affects your relationships, for the rest of your life. In terms of, I spent a lot of time in group therapy and something we just touch on so much is if you're making new friendships or new romantic relationships, it's at what point do you tell them.

Like, how do you explain this? How do you explain that? Like one day I may be totally cool with being intimate and the next day I'm not, or I think I'm okay. And then in the middle, I have to say, you know what, like I can't today or whatnot. And so it's just even if you think that you're over it, these things come up that you realize like, Oh, my life is forever different because of, my PTSD essentially.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:24:50] happened. Yeah, absolutely. Especially when it comes to being in a romantic relationship or being intimate that's absolutely what it's like. It's funny that you should mention this because I think in the episode that we have that just aired, episode 26 ,was an episode that I did with my husband, where we talk about from his perspective, you know what it's like for him to be married to somebody who has complex PTSD.

I have a history of childhood and adult sexual abuse and those moments were real. Those moments happen. There are some moments where I'm like, okay, I am comfortable with you. Even non-sexual touch, holding my hands. And then there are moments where he will go to hold my hand thinking this is okay because I grabbed her hand earlier and I'm gone like gone, don't touch me.

Your brain is forever changed. And that's not to say that recovery isn't possible because you've come so far from where you are, you were 18 when you said your sexual assault come so far. And it sounds like the group therapy was particularly helpful for you.

Sofia Zapiola:[00:26:07] Definitely. I think it all stumps to what I'm trying to do and seeing that you're not alone, but just having a space where you can talk about these things and just realize like other people deal with this and honestly, get advice from people because they'll say here's how I explain it to my partner and they seem to understand and take it really well, or just getting support and validation.

If you're saying like, I try to explain this to a new like potential partner and it did not go the way that I expected. And to be able to have people tell you that, like you're not overreacting. Like it's okay to expect that people are able to respect your boundaries and what you need in that moment.

And so I'm just overall a big fan of community and I don't necessarily think people need to share what has happened to them in order to be valid or to truly heal. I think everyone's process is completely different, but since I am comfortable sharing, I figured that's something I can do. And I think it does also help my healing to just be able to get it out instead of before.

I would just think all day this particular thing about mental health and I feel like people don't understand, and instead I can write about it, I can ask other people about it and. Yeah, just overall has really helped me.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:27:31] Yeah. There's so much power. For some of us, like you said, not all of us in speaking, like actually speaking out loud and I feel the same way that when I talk about this stuff, it helps me heal and feel so much less alone, which is really the whole point of what you're doing, which is to let people know.

And it's also the whole point of this podcast as well, which is to let people know that they are not alone. And also that there is hope. There is hope for them. And that's one of the questions that I have for you is you have such positive vibes and such a positive outlook. And one of the things that you said earlier was, I decided a while ago that staying stuck in like the negative thought patterns, just wasn't going to work for me. So you tend to do that cognitive reframing and you take the best out of what's given to you. Are there some days where it's so hard to do that?

Sofia Zapiola:[00:28:44] It's been enough training where nowadays I recognize them immediately. And if I have an anxious thought or I'm thinking like, Oh, nobody likes me. I'm able to stop myself and say, okay, what is the evidence to support that? And normally there is none. And so I can say, or something that I used to like to say whenever, how it's some sort of inconvenience.

I was like, Oh, I just want to die. And that's not true at all. I did not want to die. I did not have any sort of suicidal ideation, but it was just like, what I really meant was I wish the world would pause right now. I wish I hadn't done that. I wish I could take a break. And so I started instead saying if I caught myself saying something like that, I stop and be like, no, that's not what I want.

What I would like is for everything to pause. Or, for that not to have happened or whatnot. And also just something that, I don't know if it's as common now it is, but like in college, a lot of my friends were saying like, it was a common thing to be like, Oh, I'm trash. And then you like point to a trash can.

And you're like, Oh, that's me. And I couldn't not get behind that because even if you're joking, Your mind starts to believe it. And that's also something that I did is I used to have really bad self-esteem. And one thing that I did, one of many was just one day decided that I was like the best or at least was going to act like it.

Even if I didn't believe in myself and I'm a Leo, so that was a lot easier for me to do than it might be for other people. But just one day I I thought I was being obnoxious, but everybody else was like, yes, queen. Like they were totally behind it. And so I'm like, Oh, people really like me. I really do think that I'm awesome.

And so I highly recommend, I just, even if you don't believe it yourself, just putting out those kind of "I am the best at what I do."

Alyssa Scolari: [00:30:39] Yes.

Sofia Zapiola:[00:30:40] Whatever affirmations you need.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:30:43] Yes, there is something to be said for affirmations, even if you don't believe them. And I can't even believe these words are coming out of my mouth because six years ago, if you had said the word affirmation to me, I would have rolled my eyes so hard and been like, Ooh, No, but there's something. There's something to be said for it.

It's that whole concept of fake it till you make it. I may feel like I'm trash, but I'm actually not going to say that. That's not really what this is. I'm going to put out there that I am competent. I am great. I am worthy. I am loved people care about me. I feel like I do that all the time with this podcast.

I, like when I first started this podcast, I was like, who am I? I'm like, I'm some lady from New Jersey who is talking about trauma, but then when I started to get feedback, I'm like, Oh, maybe I do know what I'm talking about. So I could totally relate to that.

Sofia Zapiola:[00:31:46] I think it also another part of my life, which I equate to having boundaries, but it's much easier to do as an adult, but I am very intentional about the people that I spend time with. It's also a lot easier for me to do as a solo entrepreneur. So I don't necessarily need to deal with coworkers that I am not fond of or have negative attitudes or whatnot.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:32:11] It's the best.

Sofia Zapiola:[00:32:13] But even, even when I was like, was an employee or what not just what I could control in terms of it doesn't mean you need to cut everyone out who like is negative, but just in terms of who are you spending time with. Who are you making plans with. Who are you continuously communicating with.

And if those aren't people that like make you feel warm and fuzzy inside, when you see them, then maybe reevaluate it. And so being positive is a lot easier to do because the people around me are generally positive. And even if they're not, or even if they say things that are triggering for me, I'm able to have conversations with them to respectfully say, I feel this way when this happens and maybe that wasn't your intention, but I just wanted to let you know.

And overall, I think that's just improved my life and everything about it really.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:33:15] That is a golden nugget of advice for, and in fact, this conversation is really, so much about different ways to protect yourself and your peace and that's absolutely surrounding ourselves with people who will hype you up, who will listen to you, and who will respect your boundaries. That's another thing that you are amazing at educating people on is the concept of boundaries.

I really do feel that there are many people out there that. And I also feel that this is a cultural thing where some cultural, like in some cultures, boundaries are not at all acceptable. And I think you're really good at teaching the importance of boundaries and being able to use them as a way to protect ourselves our mental health.

Sofia Zapiola:[00:34:11] I would credit that both to just growing up with my mom who had this whole background. Yeah. And not only psychology, but she used to teach a lot of classes on parenting and to survivors of domestic violence. And so I learned about domestic violence and emotional abuse and manipulation from a very young age.

And so I was able to recognize that when other people may not be able to recognize that something is emotional abuse, because it's just what they've always known. And then also, I think just growing up in the time of sort of social media and people sharing online, I think a lot of what I've learned about setting boundaries and what I deserve, I got from Twitter and Tumblr. And so it's interesting because I honestly think sometimes that I learned more from like websites than I did from like my college education or at least more kind of stuff that's applicable to my daily life in terms of I don't think about the amygdala on a daily basis. Whereas that's something I might have talked about in class much more often, but just being able to get opinions and advice from people all over with all sorts of different life experiences. So I wasn't limited to just what my culture was or what I had grown up with. And I think it also just makes me a lot more understanding that everyone's background is different.

And so In terms of harm reduction, like things that we may see as really negative or really negative actions that people take are actually informed by environments that they grew up in and just perspectives that they have that are different and not necessarily correct, but it just helps you understand other people better.

And I don't mean to say that to excuse like heinous behavior, but just when people do something that you might consider a betrayal or just as harming you, being able to understand where they might be coming from and why their intentions may not have been like what you interpreted them as. If that makes sense.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:36:29] No, that makes perfect sense. And I think that's really helpful as well. I think that's very helpful for people to hear. It's certainly helpful for me to hear it because sometimes I tend to, especially after sometimes I find that for those of us who, have extensive trauma and have been for lack of a better word, wronged by people. We tend to jump right to assuming what the intentions of others are. So I think that's very useful advice. I know I totally did that slash still do it. Sometimes I have to work on being like, all right, slow your role. So I think that's really helpful.

So you are in Minnesota. You live in Minnesota. And what would you say is like the long-term goal for you? So as an entrepreneur, like where do you see yourself?

Sofia Zapiola:[00:37:25] This is so funny. Cause I was talking to my mom about this morning, about how I literally do not have long-term plans. I used to be the person that had her entire life planned out and I realized that I did that so that I did not have to cope with the present and essentially what happened is I was in college.

I had this entire sort of five-year plan for myself. I was going to go to graduate school at first, I was going to do aPsyD. And then I worked in a research lab with graduate students and they were studying executive functioning, but they were not...phD takes a lot out of you. They were not functioning, so I said maybe not.

So I was like, okay, I'm going to go immediately to get my master's and all these things. And I just was so depressed and so anxious that I ended up after a fall semester, I came home for winter break and I enrolled in intensive outpatient program for behavioral health. So I stayed home for the beginning of that semester.

I took two online classes because I still needed my student health insurance, but I had no clue if I was going to return back to Minnesota, or finish my degree or what I was going to do. I was applying to transfer to colleges closer to home because I'm from California originally. And so I had this plan and suddenly I had no plan suddenly I had no clue what the future looked like.

And that was really hard for me. And I just realized that I can't plan. And so at this point I have goals. Some of them I have ideas of how I'm going to reach them, but no, like specific plans and things have always tended to work out for me. So I just keep believing that things are gonna work out for me and things will come when they do, but it is just rough to decide do I see myself living in Minnesota for the longterm, if not, where would I live? Because I'm also thinking about going to grad school either for, to become a therapist or licensed clinician or for a master of public administration to do more like administration of sort of social services or mental health treatment or whatnot.

I wouldn't even know what state to prepare to get my licensure. And because I have honestly, no clue, I will say that like my favorite place is Santa Barbara and I could totally see myself like moving there if not retiring there, but I really don't know in the meantime, what that looks like.

I'm just working on building my business and just building a life that I'm happy and fulfilled by. And the goals tend to come when I'm ready for them.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:40:09] Yep. I'm such a big believer in that. It's like that saying "You make plans and God laughs" and it's, God, the universe , whatever one may believe in, if one believes in anything, we make plans for ourselves and they never work out anyway. But it's also in the spirit of cognitive reframing, which you are extremely great at it's also exciting because I can definitely relate to that. That's where are you going to go? What are we going to do from here? And it's I don't know. I'm just going to see where tomorrow takes me. And then the next day after that. And we'll just see, because for all of us, I think all of our possibilities are endless and that's not a bad thing.

Once we let our anxiety go and realize we can pretty much do whatever we want in this world, it becomes so exciting. You have a million opportunities ahead.

Sofia Zapiola:[00:41:06] Yeah, I know it's. At the same time, it's a little bit overwhelming or just, I don't know, to see things happening. Like I have friends who are buying houses are getting married and I'm absolutely so excited for them. And that is what they wanted, but I have no clue when that will happen for me.

But at this point it's not really something that's a priority in my life. And so yeah. Sometimes people get annoyed that I really cannot like give them timelines. And, but really the only person that like is allowed to get annoyed, that I don't have a timeline is myself and I'm not annoyed.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:41:45] Exactly. As long as you're not annoyed, then that's okay. That's all that matters. That's all that matters. And I did want to ask, you said that you had received EMDR, could you just give a brief explanation to the listeners out there who might not know what EMDR is and how it helped you? Cause this is huge in the trauma fields.

Sofia Zapiola:[00:42:10] I normally explain it in layman's terms or whatnot, which may mean that my analogies or whatnot are not exactly correct, but I think they're close enough. And this is something I was introduced to because of my mom. So she actually did it a year or two before, and she said, I think this could really help you.

And then also just in my group therapy situations, there were people that had done it. So essentially, you work with a therapist trained in EMDR and they use what's called bilateral stimulation, which often is them holding two fingers in front of your face and then moving it from the left to the right.

And you're following it with your eyes. So it feels right. You're watching a tennis game. If you can't do that with your eyes, sometimes they'll tap your right knee and left knee, like essentially it's like right side of your body, left side your body being stimulated. And you're thinking about the traumatic event as this happens.

And so I believe the idea is that, like it, the thing about trauma and why it continues to trigger us after the fact is that our brain is not able to process it. Like it would any other interaction or memory. And so it almost just forces you to process it. So it's not triggering anymore. And it's really rough.

I did it over winter break in three weeks, meaning that I was having sessions like twice a week. I can't remember exactly how many hours I did o it total, but it was a lot. And it was, my therapist told me to treat it like as having surgery. So I took a lot of naps. I could not drive myself to my appointments because I was just too exhausted after the fact to drive myself home. I had some really bad depression after the first couple sessions which kind of makes sense, because I was forcing myself to confront all of this trauma that I had tried to avoid for so long. But then you reach a break point, you keep doing the thinking about this situation that was like, while doing the bilateral stimulation until it's not triggering anymore.

The other thing you can do is re-imagine it. And so it's funny. I had a situation where I was being sexually harassed by boys in my seventh grade class. And I was really frustrated by the teacher not doing anything about it. My therapist asked me, who is someone that would have done something about it that was in your life.

At that point, I was like my field hockey coach. Like she would not have stood up for that at all. So now if I think back to that memory, like I think of my field hockey coach, like coming into the classroom and being like...which did not happen. And that's a huge part of what EMDR is supposed to do.

I don't think it's necessarily supposed to record new memories, but like being able to reframe things and that's essentially how it helped me.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:45:13] It almost sounds, and I am not trained in EMDR, but it sounds like it's just the most intensive therapy because it is forcing you like here you are processing everything fast paced, double time. But at the end of it, it's ultimately very healing.

Sofia Zapiola:[00:45:32] And it's hard because in terms of treatments for PTSD, there aren't a lot. And the ones that are widely known are really hard. It's mostly like exposure therapy, which is also very hard on the patient. And I'm very lucky in terms that I had a break from school. I didn't have anything to do for three weeks.

I had parents that could drive me to and from my appointments. And so it may not be necessarily the right choice for everyone. And it.Is brutal when it's happening, but like the way that my life after the fact, in terms of like before there were days where I could not leave my apartment, cause I was too scared of what would happen if I went outside and that didn't happen and I was having less nightmares and flashbacks.

And it also just helped me heal some traumatizing things that I had not recognized as trauma. So like I went into my sexual assault when I was 18, but then as we were digging deeper, we realized like, Oh, this situation from seventh grade is also affecting me. And so you also go chronologically.

So by the time you maybe get to the things that are more freshest in your memory, or in my case, like the most serious I had already worked through a lot. So it was easier to get through those by starting from when I was younger, but yeah, it can be really helpful, but just honestly, any treatment for PTSD is going to be rough.

Working through mental illness is just hard. I don't think people necessarily realize that it takes a lot more energy to work through things than to just sit with them. Like it's a lot easier to just, even though it's really inconvenient to be depressed. It's a lot easier to sit there in your depression and like actively work through your thoughts and develop like coping mechanisms and try coping mechanisms that you didn't necessarily want to try and things like that.

And so doing things like EMDR, like the intensive outpatient program that I did , honestly so much, energy, so exhausting, but ultimately so worth it.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:47:35] Ultimately lifesaving because It's ultimately what allows you to thrive and what will help you to have really healthy relationships in the future? Yeah, it's very hard. I'm glad that you pointed that out because it is whew...I'm terrified of EMDR. I have not done it for my PTSD because I'm like, I don't know if I'll make it, but I know there are people that do it all the time.

I just happened to be much more hesitant about it. But I just think that you have an incredible story. You are incredibly uplifting and empowering and intelligent. And I can't wait to see where life takes you. We don't know where it's taken you, but I know it's taking you somewhere good. I know that.

Sofia Zapiola:[00:48:22] Yeah, overall I'm excited. And hopefully for me as someone who like does struggle with imposter syndrome and like other things that I think we all struggle with, like being able to hear like you are making a difference. I hope other people listening to this, realize that if you think "Oh, who am I to be doing this?"

Or whatever things imposter syndrome is telling you, I don't go out into the world being like, people are going to give me praise, but then when it comes, I'm like, Oh yeah, I am doing that.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:48:51] Yes. Yes. Let's normalize imposter syndrome because I think that we all have it at times, but that doesn't mean that we're not doing good things in this world. So I cannot thank you enough for coming on the show today. If people want to follow you, because do you have any other socials aside from Instagram?

Do you haveTikTok as well?

Sofia Zapiola:[00:49:18] I have a personal one, it's not mental health focused.

I do occasionally do mental...I did an antidepressants as a sexy Halloween costumes, a Tik TOK that was pretty well received. But those, I normally just post on my Instagram because that's where I put everything. The hard part is I have personal accounts.

I have this mental health account. I have my business accounts. I have a lot of social media.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:49:47] Oh, wow. Okay. So where's the best place for people to follow you? And is Instagram @activeandanxious is that?

Sofia Zapiola:[00:49:57] Yes, for mental health content. It's definitely @activeandanxious on Instagram and the blog is http://activeandanxious.com/

Alyssa Scolari: [00:50:05] Perfect. I will link all of that for the listeners out there. Thank you very much for coming on.

Sofia Zapiola:[00:50:12] Thank you so much for having me. This was so fun.

Alyssa sits down with her decade-long friend and social impact enthusiast, Urvashi Banerjea, to discuss her recent publication in Thought Catalog. Urvashi shares her personal experience with "cultural whiplash" and how it shaped her into the woman she is today.

Urvashi's article:

This Is What Growing Up With Cultural Whiplash Taught Me | Thought Catalog

Check out the Light After Trauma website for transcripts, other episodes, Alyssa's guest appearances, and more at: www.lightaftertrauma.com

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Transcript:

Alyssa Scolari: [00:00:23] Welcome everybody to the Light After Trauma podcast. I am your host, Alyssa Scolari. And clearly I have a very exciting guest on today because we are freaking out about the fact that today. It's January 27. This is the 27th episode and 27 is our very special guest's favorite number of all time, like that is her shit.

27. Her birthday is on the 27th of September. Yeah. Right.

Urvashi Banerjea: [00:01:23] Yes. Yep.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:01:24] Okay. So without further ado, I am going to introduce, this is one of my best friends. I am so happy that you decided to come on the podcast with me because she loves me.

Urvashi Banerjea: [00:01:38] I do.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:01:40] Urvashi Banerjea. So this is how I have always known her. Uh, we met in 2010, our first day of class in college, right.

Our first day ever.

In Italian class.

Urvashi Banerjea: [00:01:53] Our first day of school,

Alyssa Scolari: [00:01:54] Shout out to Simona because you are part of the reason why we are Urvashi and I are such a dream team and Urvashi, she recently got married. So I ,just when I went to announcer had a small panic attack because she's, I think becoming she's now a married woman and Urvashi has always been just this independent, single ain't need no man type of person.

She is married to somebody who is like the absolute perfect, perfect fit for her. And I adore him. So, Urvashi is a social impact, enthusiastic. Uh, she is a freelance writer. So this is not what she does for her full-time job. This is more of like a wait, I would call it a side hustle, but I almost feel like it's become your full-time like volunteer job.

Urvashi Banerjea: [00:02:54] Yeah, I would say that I jokingly call it as my adult extracurricular. It's just something that I love to do on the side, in addition to my full-time job. And I'm hoping that one day freelance writing could be a bigger part of it, but for right now it's more about just writing things that I'm passionate about that speak to me in my life experiences, but I just love doing it on the side.

Yeah. So I think you could call it a side hustle, I guess.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:03:22] Yeah. It's one that you are extremely good at. And I think I've always been passionate about. So can you just touch a little bit on what it is that you do for your full-time job? Because I know it's, it's different than this passion of yours.

Urvashi Banerjea: [00:03:41] Yes. Yes. Sure. So my full-time jobs as Alyssa knows, has always been nothing to do with my personal passions. And I think it's okay to have professional and personal passions. So right now I am a product manager of a B2B, so business to business e-commerce platform. And we are working on building digital technologies and creating digital expansion and other countries around the world and bringing our applications to their country.

So I'm on the front end piece of that. So I'm a product manager within this application and I've been working there for about a year now.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:04:21] It's just like one of the many things that I love about, you know, it's just that you're so dynamic and you have the best of both worlds where I have often found that like, people like me, right? Like I'm very left, right, brained? I think I'm very right brained because I'm very like emotions and, you know, like I'm very like emotionally driven and very like social justice and therapy and feelings.

But the left part of my brain is like, has cobwebs in it. So I find that

Urvashi Banerjea: [00:05:01] I wouldn't say that's true. I think you are very analytical and methodical in areas that you want to be. It's a good balance of both.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:05:10] True. I would say, okay. It's a little dramatic to say I have cobwebs there. Uh, but I think that I'm definitely more like right-brained than I am left-brained whereas like, you know, like David is more left-brained.

Urvashi Banerjea: [00:05:28] Left brains, I would say. So it's hard to keep it straight.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:05:32] I know I can't keep up. I can't remember which one is which, but you just have like the, what I would call the perfect balance of like both brains working together. And I love it.

Urvashi Banerjea: [00:05:44] I think that's my Libra energy for Libras out there. Balance is key for me to maintain all harmony in my life. And that's another good example of, I think finding the right balance between the two, otherwise, you know, everything is off equilibrium. So shout out to Libras.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:06:01] Yeah. Shout out to the Libras out there because you all have your shit together. And the rest of us don't, I mean, we kind of do,

Urvashi Banerjea: [00:06:12] Yeah.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:06:13] Well, you know, I wanted to bring you on the show today for so many reasons, because basically what this episode is going to be for the listeners out there is it's really interesting.

Another conversation that Urvashi and I would typically have on like the phone, because this is the stuff that we've been talking about since the day that I met her, of course the topics have changed and developed, but she has always been a huge, huge worker for just social justice. And I mean, I couldn't put it better.

The words that you use, social impact enthusiast, and recently Urvashi has been getting a lot of attention for her writing because she is an incredible writer and she does a lot of writing about. Social justice and social impact. And she was recently featured on it was Thought Catalog. Right?

Urvashi Banerjea: [00:07:06] Yeah,

Alyssa Scolari: [00:07:06] So do you want to talk a little bit about, because you originally, like you are a regular writer for medium.com, right?

Urvashi Banerjea: [00:07:15] Yes, I have my own writer page and profile on the website and I contribute to a few different internal publications within medium. So I like to publish at least once or twice a week. But this was the first time being featured on Thought Catalog. That was definitely an exciting first for me.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:07:31] I'm so happy for you because your writing is so good. So how did that process happen? Like how does one get featured on Thought Catalog?

Urvashi Banerjea: [00:07:41] So you submit basically a piece of work that you are either proud of, or that you're excited about to share with the world. And there's a group of editors that review the piece and basically see if it's right for the platform I've published a few times. I submitted a few times before, but haven't been published to Thought Catalog.

So they have a portal where you just submit a link to your work. And if they like it, they publish it. So I was really excited that they chose this one because I think it's the universality of it is something that surprised me, even though it's about a immigrants cultural experience, I think. Being on Thought Catalogs has such a mainstream audience.

This is not a niche South Asian publication. So that made me happier that I grew up reading Thought Catalog. It's something that has poetry. It has more hard hitting pieces. It's just a great variety of everything. So I was happy that my piece fit in there.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:08:37] Yeah. And your pieces, the writing is amazing and it and truly, I have to say, you know, brought me to tears and was very kind of, I think very sobering about the different types of trauma. And I know we were talking a little bit about this last night when we were prepping for the podcast, but I think when a lot of people think of trauma, they just go right to you, know, sexual abuse or domestic violence or physical abuse, or maybe being in a car accident or like 9/11, things like that. But there is this different type of trauma that you are actively bringing light to and doing. So with this article, which is called and for the listeners out there, I am going to link it in the show notes and post it on the Facebook page.

But it's called, This is What Growing Up with Cultural Whiplash Taught Me. So this concept, cultural whiplash. Can you talk a little bit about it? Did you come up with that on your own?

Urvashi Banerjea: [00:09:44] I did. I came up with that term.

I'm

Alyssa Scolari: [00:09:46] not even a little bit surprised.

Urvashi Banerjea: [00:09:49] But I'm sure there are other writers out there who have used it in their work. I don't want to say I coined it, but I think I came up with it because in this particular situation, it felt like it really matched the way I was feeling. And just as a funny, personal aside, I've been going to the chiropractor because my neck is a little bit misaligned and I was thinking like, my neck hurts, you know?

And it's like, how can I apply this? I'm always trying to look for a deeper meaning in things. So how can I apply this to my other experiences? And that's when whiplash came to me, it's like this constant shift is Alyssa and I are on video for the listeners who can't see this video, but I am moving my neck back and forth because it's just, just orienting to constantly looking one place and then swerving to another.

And just having that be your perpetual state of being. So with last year, it seemed like a really fitting term.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:10:39] LOok at the irony that like your neck hurts, like look at what your body's trying to tell you.

Urvashi Banerjea: [00:10:46] I didn't even put that together. That is so true. Maybe it is a manifestation of that

Alyssa Scolari: [00:10:52] Absolutely. I mean, I'm such a big believer in the mind body connection. So like that's where you're holding it. That's where you're holding the pressure of, you know, well, what we're about to talk about. So do you want to go through and say a little bit about what this article, what this article is, what it means to you?

Urvashi Banerjea: [00:11:14] Yeah, absolutely. So I wrote this article a few weeks ago and my writing process is pretty standard across all the things that I write. It takes about a day or two. And I have maybe two rounds of editing before I publish it to my own medium page. This article was different. It took two continuous weeks of writes and rewrites, and it was a very heavy article with a lot of complex issues. And I wanted to do justice to all of those issues. So this article, for those of you who haven't read it is about an immigrant experience, but it's more from the mindset of transformation. So internal transformation of how I view my own cultural fluidity, as well as from the outside, looking in of how has the perception of Indians in society, particularly American society. How has that changed and not just Indians, but also just immigrants and the concept of diversity and what a transformation has gone through in the last 15 to 20 years in terms of how it's perceived from mainstream society. So I started off this article more about my own. Experience as a young girl immigrating to the us from India. I was born in India and I moved to the U S when I was five. So my, most of my upbringing, I would say in the US I, of course I have memories of being a young child in India and have that as my foundation as a basis. But I would say all of my valuable years were here.

So, there was a particular incident that triggered this deep reflection in the article. It was a racist incident from a peer in third grade. And I think that stuck with me today. So I think about that and I think about what has it taught me and it's brought to light, but the most impactful part of growing up in America was actually not that racist incident. It was actually how easy it was for me to stifle parts of my Indian identity in order to fit in and just be very fluid across different situations. So the article really just goes into that growth for me, that realization and, sort of tie into the societal parallel of black lives matter how we are so aware now of our privilege and what that means for people of color, but non-black people of color. So I'm talking your Brown communities, Indian, Pakastani, Muslim whatever you are, wherever you are. I think the movement and the pandemic have really brought to light so many different things about how you view your own culture and how you're impacted by how other people view your own culture.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:14:01] That to me sounds a lot like what you have been talking about so much lately, which is this concept of generational trauma.

Urvashi Banerjea: [00:14:11] Yeah, for sure. I mean, I think intergenerational trauma, it's not a term that I use specifically in the article, but it was definitely implied within the writing because I talked about how do I reconcile living in a household with values and beliefs that are so completely different than what I see in the outside world.

And those values and beliefs were cemented by intergenerational trauma. And I think I loved your introduction where trauma in Indian culture is absolutely looked at as a non issue. It is something that you almost, as if it's a taboo, like I would say it's like the equivalent of like, Oh, the "T" word, no, that doesn't exist here.

It's very much puts it aside. Not acknowledged. For having all of the different aspects that it can have. I think, like you said, trauma, isn't defined to one specific group of issues. It could be so many different things. And I credit a lot of just social media now and just the power of social media for that awareness to be raised in the Indian community, that trauma can exist in so many different ways.

And it's not a bad thing. It's just something to address.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:15:26] Right. It's just something to acknowledge. And I think it's extremely hard to acknowledge because of stigma, because of, you know, talking about trauma, intergenerational trauma is almost forcing people to have to redefine or redo the way that they operate in their culture. It's forcing people to make cultural shifts so that it's no longer traumatic.

And I'm not saying, you know, disidentifying or rejecting that culture. I don't think just disidentifying is a word. I think I just made that up. Oh,

but it's a.

Urvashi Banerjea: [00:16:05] yourself from a culture,

Alyssa Scolari: [00:16:07] Yes. And that's not at all. That's not at all what I'm saying. It's just that it might, it would force generations to have to make some cultural shifts so that there is less trauma that is endured as a result.

Urvashi Banerjea: [00:16:25] For sure. But I think even identifying what is that trauma is the first step,

Alyssa Scolari: [00:16:29] Ah,yes.

Urvashi Banerjea: [00:16:29] There's so many different things that can contribute to it. I think it's connection and just the community of growing up in a predominantly Indian community, if you are born and raised in India, or if you live in different parts of America that are predominantly Indian.

I mean, here in New Jersey, we have so many ethnic enclaves like that. And if you grow up in that area, versus a predominantly white town. Your experience will be completely different, but not to say that one is less traumatic than the other, but it's also a question of defining, like what, what are the things that we're even looking out for?

And I think trauma just really cements itself and communication and having a feeling of, you know, understanding kind of like your place in the household. If that makes sense. There's just so many different things that it could be. That for people that are not as familiar with what counts as trauma, I think having that discussion to educate yourself is the first step,

Alyssa Scolari: [00:17:25] Yeah, I think in some of these cultures and we've had some conversations like this, where boundaries, aren't just not a thing right. It's not acceptable. So, you know, as a trauma therapist, it's extremely difficult for me to teach. Or so tell somebody, well, you need to set boundaries with your family when they come, you know, let's say they've immigrated from India and they're like, boundaries, like good luck with that.

And you tell my mom, right? Like you tell my mom, that I can't do X, Y, and Z like good luck because it's just, it's not a thing. And it's more like, I almost want to say, and I don't want to speak for you, but it's like, you have less of a voice when you're younger.

Urvashi Banerjea: [00:18:16] Yes, absolutely. And that is so apparent in growing up now that I am married, I have these conversations with my husband and he grew up in a very different family unit than I did where he was active voice at the table. And there are pros and cons against that. I mean, I'm very much an advocate for let your child children have a childhood.

I think including them in adult decisions from such a young age is something that could be a little difficult, but it has to be done well, of course. And in his case it was, he is an only child and he grew up with a family unit mentality. But for me, I think it was that I was shielded from a lot of adult decisions from a young age, so that when I did become an adult, there was a lot of things that I wasn't aware of just because I had a very traditional kind of family structure, where the parents make the decisions and the children are shielded from it a bit. So it's just even within our own family experiences and we're from the exact same place in India, same culture and everything. So it's interesting how it felt it could differ so much across our experiences.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:19:23] Yeah, I think that that's so important to point out that, right. Your husband is also there from India as well. And how different the atmosphere and the expectations are in the way you grew up versus the way he grew up. How do you feel? Because going back to the article and this idea of cultural whiplash, in what ways did you feel specifically like you are in this concept of whiplash, where you were being thrown between identities?

Urvashi Banerjea: [00:20:01] So I would say that really started as a young adult, maybe about the end of middle school all the way through college. It was a lot of different things. So, for example, one of the main things is in my article, I talk about group think versus individuation. And the big thing in Indian culture is like, we were talking about lack of boundaries, community you in olden days.

And even now, I mean, you raise a child together as a community, and that's something that is ingrained in the culture where you will sacrifice your self care versus self-sacrifice so it's likeself-sacrifice vs. self care is a really big perspective as well. And I think growing up, I would hear a lot about, you know, you have to take care of your family. You have to have this idea there really, or this concept ingrained in you really strong, like family unit and grow up making sure that you are taking care of your family and have a lot of things in mind for like your career, but also at the end of the day, it's like family. And so for me, that was really interesting because then I would also, you know, go out with my friends and we would always talk about having our own careers and maybe never getting married and never having kids.

And so it was just like, even in the way that I saw my life play out, it was very different. Depending on where I was, if I was home or if I was outside of the home, it was just really strange. And I didn't even reconcile how strange that was until later. And then when I was an adult, like young adult, not like past college and everything as a young professional, I would say, and those concepts came more into play because they were now fully under my control.

Like I was making my own money and I was living alone. I think that's when it became more of a jarring type of existence because I didn't quite know what I wanted and I didn't have a household telling me one thing and then, you know, a peer group telling me another, it was kind of that now I'm free to make my own decisions.

And it's like, what do I want now? I just didn't know. Cause I was just completely torn between two different mindsets.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:22:15] And all these years later do you know now?

Urvashi Banerjea: [00:22:19] I do. I think that's the happy ending of the article is kind of that I hope in the future that we allow kids who are immigrants or kids of immigrants to create a hybrid mental framework where they are hearing both sides, but they're able to just make their own decisions. And I absolutely was able to make my own decision, but I think getting there and constructing that hybrid framework took a lot of conscious effort on my part because I think there's a difference of riding through life with this voice in your head and subconscious way of thought. And I think that is what you hear in the household becomes your little voice in your head and realizing that and dismantling that took a lot more of an effort than I thought it would. But I think if you teach kids from a young age that, you know what we're saying here, versus what you hear outside might be different, but it's up to you to pick and choose which elements of both philosophies that you agree with and go from there.

But I had to kind of construct that much later after, but it was a reactive measure to feeling very unsettled in my personal life. And I hope for kids in the future, it'll be proactive. It'll be like, what future do I want to construct?

Alyssa Scolari: [00:23:37] Yes, because you didn't really know what was happening back then. Right? The whole point of the article is you sharing that, like this was reactive as a result of like, kind of somewhat of an identity crisis that you had found yourself in. And then I think, I don't know. Would you agree that this article may not have come out if it hadn't been for COVID?

Urvashi Banerjea: [00:24:05] I one hundred percent agree. I think COVID was definitely the catalyst to even understanding what is going on deeper, because for the first time I didn't have anywhere to go. I didn't have anything keeping me busy. I mean, minus work, but you're kind of stuck at home all day, especially in the beginning months.

And that was really hard to reconcile. The cracks in the foundation really started to come through at that point, when you were kind of back against the corner and you didn't have anything else that was comfortable or you could see comfort, and it was just a whole new terrain.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:24:40] Yeah. And just from knowing you for the last 10 and a half years, almost 11 years. You have always been somebody who has been now that I look back on it through the lens of this article, somebody who has been teetering back and forth going through this, you know, whiplash, so to speak of like, well, now I'm doing the quote unquote, american things and now I'm, now I'm going to do, you know, part of my cultural Indian and take care of my family back in India. And now I'm doing this and now I'm doing that. And it was, I mean, you're right. I don't know if you've ever had time to slow down or if you would have slowed down, if it hadn't been for COVID to be able to really unpack all of this.

Urvashi Banerjea: [00:25:37] I think so. I think that's when it really became apparent. It's like, who, who am I and what do I want from this lifetime? And what do I want from myself? And I wouldn't trade my Indian heritage or identity for anything. I think it's, I'm so proud to be Indian, but I think there's a lot of things in the Indian culture that I may not necessarily agree with.

And I think a lot of that feeling of guilt is like, but I am Indian. I'm just living in America. So I am American, but at the core I'm Indian. So which ideology should I base my life decisions on? Kind of, because I think if you looked at it in the Indian mindset versus American mindset, it would look very different, even everything in terms of like career and what you prioritize and just the way you think about certain things.

And so it was harder for me. Harder and easier. So it's always a double-edged sword because it was harder for me internally to go through all of these things. But if you were to look at me from the outside, it was no big deal. I was just another, you know, girl going through life learning things as everyone does.

And I think a big piece of that is the way that I look, I don't necessarily look traditionally Indian. It's hard to describe, but I get all the time that I am Hispanic, that I look Mexican or that I look Puerto Rican. I get that people speak to me in Spanish, on the street. And so I think a big piece of that was a contributing factor to feeling like I could be a cultural chameleon, which is another term that I use in the article is this feeling of like being able to fit in everywhere. And that's a social skill. I think as much as it is something that's like a physical trait. I think if you look a certain way, you're probably inadvertently typecast and the type of person you all, everybody has stereotypes about people that they see. And I think because I didn't look traditionally Indian, that also was a contributing factor to being able to feel like I could seamlessly just navigate between being American and being Indian. I was literally at an Indian religious function and somebody asked me, so like, what are you doing here?

That's awesome. That you're part of this taking part in the culture. I was like, I'm literally I'm Indian. And when I go to India, they try to charge me the tourist fee because they think that I'm from America. Yeah. True story. So I don't, I don't know if that...it doesn't bother me. I think it's just something that I think is interesting, but I also feel like. I mean, this is a whole different article. I mean, a whole different article, a whole different podcast. But one of the things that prompted me to write this article was just seeing this new wave of Indian reality shows and how it's the complete opposite in India, where, and this is my limited experience. I just want to put that disclaimer out there. I'm definitely not the authority on this, but I just see that in certain societal ranks of India, if you are wealthier and you live in urban areas, you try to play up a certain type of whiteness. Like you try to amplify that you are emulating the Kardashians, for example, whereas in America, as I write my article now that you know with black lives matter, and there's a whole resurgence of a appreciation of diversity. I feel like people who have diverse backgrounds here are playing it up all the more now that you know, I'm, I have a background I'm from somewhere I'm diverse and I value it.

And that's a huge part of me. But with this new wave of Indian reality shows on Netflix, it's like, what is this society? What is this culture? And it could not be more of a contrast. And I think that's also something that made me then look at myself. I can't say my part of the problem because that's up to personal opinion.

Is this even a problem? But for me, am I part of that kind of just straddling those two lines.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:29:42] THat makes me so sad. I don't know, just the whole concept. And this is what I think many white people don't quite understand. That's something I will never be able to understand. But when I hear you talk about it, I think it makes me so sad because that's exhausting.

Urvashi Banerjea: [00:30:04] It is a little exhausting, just going, especially the part about going back to India and not feeling like I fit in. It's not that I don't belong. I think those are two different things. I mean, I feel like I do belong. I have a strong ties to my cultural identity and all of my family there minus my immediate family who's here, but I just it's a constant awareness that I, some people think I'm, I am not from here.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:30:34] Yes. And this idea of, and you...do you speak to this in the article, right? Being taking on your American identity yet, sometimes taking on your Indian identity at other times, it's like having to. It's like constantly being in theater where you're like, all right, whipping this mask off, putting this mask on, like that is tiring and traumatic, especially as a kid.

And I want to just go back to...because you had mentioned this a little while ago, that you really didn't start to acknowledge any of this stuff until you were in, like, I think you said middle school, high school.

Urvashi Banerjea: [00:31:19] Yeah, pretty much high school.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:31:21] But in your, the like overtly racist, absolutely. Just dispicable. It's absolutely dispicable. I can't even, you know, I don't even want it on my screen. I like pulled it up. I pulled it up on my screen and then I'm like, that makes me sick. Yep. I can't even look at it. But for those of you who do want to know.

Obviously I will, again, link this article so that you can read it. This is a really important read, no matter where you are from, this is an extremely, extremely crucial topic. So that happened when you were in, was it third?

Urvashi Banerjea: [00:32:03] Third grade actually. Yes,

Alyssa Scolari: [00:32:05] So, let me ask you this. Was there some part of you that even as young as that, you had to have some awareness that like, Oh, maybe I don't want to identify as Indian.

Urvashi Banerjea: [00:32:21] Oh, for sure. Yeah. I think that had so much of a domino effect in ways that I look back now and it's so interesting how I then manifested that insecurity into so many decisions that kids that age don't even think about. So for example, we would go to India in the summers because my sister and I had off because we were children in the summer.

And so we would go to India would come back with all this. You know, just beautiful things like purses and clothes and just shirts and whatever it is. And I would make a concious decision everyday, like, Oh, I can't wear this to school. No way I can't carry this ethnic looking purse to school. And so then instead I would just, I don't know, carry something else because I didn't want it to be evident that I was Indian.

And I think any kid, whatever you're background is like, you just want to fit in, you know, you don't have any. Most kids probably don't have self-confidence at that point to say like, Hey, I'm proud of this. I'm going to rock this and maybe kids these days do, but I definitely did it back then. And so just make these decisions to not wear sweaters my mom knit me or like bring Indian food to school for lunch. And it's just, I have guilt about that a hundred percent now. And if I were to have children in the future, of course, I would try to say it doesn't matter be you, but at that point, I think that particular event was very triggering to just want to hide certain things that I just didn't feel like putting out there.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:33:53] I mean the shame. And you say it, you say like the inexplicable humiliation. Which is right. That's exactly what it is. The shame that, brings on that basically, that person told you when you were just trying to enjoy your day as a little girl, that you had somebody come up to you and tell you about who you are at your core is essentially disgusting to her.

And the shame and the lack of understanding and just the guilt that you then have to go through throughout the years of like, I do identify as being a part of this Indian culture and my parents, you know, your mom makes this awesome jewelry, which I still rock to this day.

Urvashi Banerjea: [00:34:44] laughs

Alyssa Scolari: [00:34:45] So you've got the shame of what people are saying at school.

Then you've got the guilt factor because it's like, you know, my parents were trying to get me to look a certain way. I can't do this. I can't bring this to school. I can't wear this because I will be made fun of, or I will be, I won't even say making fun of, because I will be targeted.

Urvashi Banerjea: [00:35:08] Right. And even if it's not overt targeting, it's still just knowing that my peers will know it's even like the idea of them having the knowledge that I have a different background was something that was scary

Alyssa Scolari: [00:35:21] BEcause it makes you a target because you learned at a very early age that it is actually unsafe to be who you are.

Urvashi Banerjea: [00:35:30] Yeah. That's really heavy. Yeah. Yeah. I mean unsafe. I didn't feel physical threats, but yeah. Unsafe in terms of just mental wellbeing.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:35:39] Exactly. Yeah. And I should clarify emotionally and psychologically unsafe.

Urvashi Banerjea: [00:35:44] With that feeling of guilt. It was amplified by the fact that my parents were such great parents and raising me to have a level of self-confidence and not care about these things. And I think to a degree in third grade, I knew that, but it was not enough to change a behavior. If that makes sense. It was definitely something I had ingrained in me as a core value at a young age, but it wasn't, you know, it's hard for any eight year old to be like, I have enough self confidence to still do this.

It was something that, that's what played into the guilt. When I got home with the idea of cultural whiplash, it was that I couldn't really show or express that I wanted to hide my identity because then I felt guilty because my parents did such a great job of raising me to not pay any attenion to believe or play into that idea of shame.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:36:37] Yeah, your parents are fantastic human beings. Both of them, your sister is fantastic. Like, well, she probably made it all the more difficult for you because they were so good. So that's so hard. It's so hard. And I, applaud you for doing the work to be able to get to this point that you could put this into writing because there are so many people and even just folks that I see in my practice that struggle with this concept, that can't put words to it. And you have been able to unpack this. Look back on it and write it down and now come on here and speak about it, which is a whole new level of unpacking. Right? It's one thing to write it down, but then when you call on a podcast and you talk about it, it's like

Urvashi Banerjea: [00:37:36] Yeah.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:37:36] it's different.

It's a whole different level of unpacking.

Urvashi Banerjea: [00:37:40] Yeah, much harder to put into words, something that you just feel. And it's harder to not put into words writing. I think writing comes naturally to me, but I think just speaking it into existence is there's so many different variables that go into well, you know, and even with you Alyssa, I think that with everything you've been through.

You've heard me say multiple times, let's not talk about my problems because my problems are nothing compared to what other people go through. And I think it's always that trauma comparison game that you talk about in the beginning is to acknowledge that this trauma is different from other traumas.

And it doesn't mean that necessarily, you know, not worthy of talking about, it's just something that it's hard for me to speak about because I always have that little voice inside my head, but other people have it so much worse, you know? And so it's something I want to be very mindful of, but I am very aware now that there's like pain and trauma can come in all different shapes and sizes, which is what you've taught me.

So I'm so happy to be able to talk about this.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:38:46] I know I'm so happy to have like I'm so, ah, it makes me so happy to have you on here talking about this, because if this was two or three years ago, I don't know that we would be having this conversation because I think that you were just, weren't really aware of this idea of cultural whiplash, but on some level, I do believe this about you, that I have to believe that there is a part of you that has had a deeper understanding of trauma on the subconscious level, because if you didn't and you know, to the listeners out there, like what you don't know about Aruba is that, and my relationship with her is that, you know, When I first met Urvashi, everything was great. And our, our, our friendship has always been great.

You know, it's, it's always been one of the relationships that I value the most in my life. But when I was in college was when I went through some serious trauma. I ended up meeting a guy who turned out to be extremely abusive. Abusive in the worst way. Why don't you say.

Urvashi Banerjea: [00:40:03] way psychologically abusive. It just that's the

Alyssa Scolari: [00:40:06] Psychologically abusive, physically abusive. I mean, you know, at one point I had my keys taken from me, my cell phone charger. I wasn't allowed to drive anywhere. He would actually drive me to campus. Urvashi was one of the few people that I was able to have contact with because he kind of deemed her as being safe and she really saw me through all of that, where it was easier to walk away, which is good. Many of my friends in college did, she didn't and trust me, it was not because I was her only friend because Urvashi is the kind of person who had throughout her whole life. I mean, this, you know, being a social impact, enthusiast is not something that she just started doing a year ago, this has been her whole life. This is part of who she is. So when I tell you she was involved in literally every club, every event, like she was there, she had and continues to have a million friends and it has affected the lives of so many people with what she does. And there have been whole semesters where we have been on different continents in different States throughout college.

And we were able to maintain our friendships. So Urvashi didn't just stick by my side, throughout my relationship with this monster, I can call him a monster.

Urvashi Banerjea: [00:41:43] That gives monsters a bad name to even put him in the category of

Alyssa Scolari: [00:41:48] I know he's not even worthy of that, but Urvashi, you know, she didn't just see me through this because she really didn't have any other options. Like she chose to help me save my own life. And there is a part of me that will always not a part of me. I wholeheartedly believe that part of the reason why I am still here today is because of because Urvashi would meet me where she would pick me up from work.

If I was having a bad day. Do you remember when you picked me up from work?

Urvashi Banerjea: [00:42:27] Oh, I remember. Yep.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:42:29] She would pick me up from work. She would, I remember one time in particular where we were just like sitting on a bench outside of college and I was crying hysterically and she very well could have been like, what the fuck I was like, get it together.

Like, you look like a lunatic, but she. She just sat with me. And like, those are the moments that essentially saved my life because when everybody else left, because they couldn't understand why I was in such a bad relationship, she stayed. So I have to believe that there's always been some part of you that has had a deeper understanding of trauma.

And shame and the difficulty in speaking up and being who you are because you, when nobody understood why I couldn't leave him, you while you may not have understood it, you accepted it. And you waited with me until I was ready to leave. And. I don't know, that's very healing and I think very much speaks to just going back to what you experienced as a little girl, which is that like, you know, well, you know what it's like to be rejected and you didn't reject me.

Urvashi Banerjea: [00:43:47] No. I mean, this is the greatest compliment that you could give me is to say that, you know, I'm one of the reaons that you're here. I think nothing makes me happier because I see you, I see your full potential and you're changing the world as we literally speak. And so I am so happy. I was able to be there for you, but I think a degree of it just comes with an understanding of empathy. And I think empathy is such an underrated quality these days. And I think, I feel like I've always had a really high degree of empathy. I'm not sure where exactly that comes from, but being able to just not understand your situation fully, but to understand you and who you are as a person. And.

For me, it's like I saw through all of the horrible things that were happening into your core. And I knew at your core, that's not who you were. That's not what you stood for. And to be able to help you in any way, just fight through that was just so amazing looking back now almost 10 years later, which is crazy and to the person that you've become.

And I am so grateful that our friendship has persisted. But one thing I think, as we were speaking did come to me, is that I feel like a lot of my life has been chasing what is the most authentic version of myself and who is that. And what does that person look like, and for you, I think I may not have had on a conscious level, an understanding of trauma, but I had an understanding of looking at people and seeing their authentic selves.

And I didn't see yours. And because it was taken away from you because you were dealing with so much trauma and pain, and I think that's something that I will maybe has something to do with understanding that it's just that I wanted to help people live their most, their best and truest life. And I always ask people as a, my version of an icebreaker is not like, what is your favorite ice cream flavor?

It's literally, when is the last time you felt the most authentically yourself? Like, I just love those kinds of questions and the word authentic and living that authentic life is something that I strive towards. And in that journey, that's when I realized I was having a cultural whiplash because I wasn't living my authentic self.

I felt like stripping away all of my possessions and like starting over, I had these like crazy radical thoughts. But I realized that the core, it's not the things that I want to get rid of. It was like society's perceptions. And like all of these things that I've been telling myself, I wanted to get rid of that to then find who I was at the core.

So I don't know if it's a deeper understanding of trauma, but I think it's completely linked with like, who are you at your most authentic self without the world bullshit, basically. And that's what I saw in you. And it's, I continue to see in you. And I'm so glad that that, you know, but with something that really helped you.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:46:49] think you're exactly right. I think that that's a much more accurate way of putting it because you really always did try to help me bring out my authentic self. You had me like going to parties and you were inviting me to stuff. And then you introduced me to like your friends from your hometown, who like to this day.

absolutely, I adore your friends.

So, yeah, you did. I mean, you helped me stay as true to myself as I possibly could during what were some of the darkest times of my life. Um, And nowhere we are recording episode 27 on the 27th.

Urvashi Banerjea: [00:47:29] Full circle.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:47:29] I know full circle. I love it. And I cannot thank you enough for coming on the show.

Urvashi Banerjea: [00:47:35] Thank you so much for having me.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:47:39] I know it's hard to be vulnerable about this stuff, but you did great as always.

Urvashi Banerjea: [00:47:44] Thank you. It was an honor to be here. I am so proud of you and the impact that you're making on this world. Every single episode that you produce is just so enlightening and in a way that is relatable. I think this podcast transcends like degrees and education about the trauma field. And speaks to people on their most human level.

And that's something that very few podcasts do. So I am honored to be here.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:48:10] Thank you. We're working on redefining trauma redefining and making it a lot less scary.

Alyssa brings her husband, David, on the show to discuss the challenges that can come with supporting a loved one with PTSD. David offers advice for supporters on how they can help aid their loved ones on their path to recovery while also taking time to care for themselves.

Check out the Light After Trauma website for transcripts, other episodes, Alyssa's guest appearances, and more at: www.lightaftertrauma.com

Want to get more great content and interact with the show? Check us out on Instagram: @lightaftertrauma

We need your help! We want to continue to make great content that can help countless trauma warriors on their journey to recovery. So, please help us in supporting the podcast by becoming a recurring patron of the show via Patreon. Every bit helps!

Transcript:

[singing]

Alyssa Scolari [00:23]:

Hey everybody, I feel like I need a new introduction. Because for every episode I'm like, "Hey everybody." And I sound so cheesy.

David Scolari [00:34]:

No, we got to stay on brand. That is part of the brand and we're going with it, baby.

Alyssa Scolari [00:39]:

No, it's too cheesy. Welcome everybody. No, that's really, that's terrible too. Anyway guys, hello guys, girls, they, them, everybody. Welcome to another episode of the Light After Trauma podcast, I'm your host Alyssa Scolari, and as you may or may not already be able to tell, we are doing an episode with the man behind the scenes today, my husband David. He is the editor of the podcast and the technology guru. Most importantly, I'm married to him. Hi Dave.

David Scolari [01:21]:

Hello.

Alyssa Scolari [01:23]:

The reason behind this is because as much as I think it's very important to give a voice to trauma survivors, I think it's also equally important to give a voice to the ones who are on the sidelines supporting us and loving us through our PTSD recovery journey. I thought that it might be helpful for folks if David came on the podcast today to share a little bit about what it's like to love somebody through PTSD. Yeah, here's Dave.

David Scolari [01:59]:

Hey everybody. How are we all doing today?

Alyssa Scolari [02:03]:

I can't, I'm going to have to edit that part out.

David Scolari [02:06]:

Dave, edit that part out. You watch that rat bastard. He'll leave that right in there.

Alyssa Scolari [02:16]:

I guess I'll just start firing questions at you.

David Scolari [02:18]:

Go right ahead.

Alyssa Scolari [02:19]:

It's so weird because I've actually never done a podcast that somebody sitting in the same room as me. March 23rd will be three years that we've been married.

David Scolari [02:28]:

Yes ma'am.

Alyssa Scolari [02:30]:

When I first met you, we met in 2016.

David Scolari [02:34]:

Indeed.

Alyssa Scolari [02:34]:

Did you have any idea that I had a history of trauma?

David Scolari [02:39]:

Not a fricking clue.

Alyssa Scolari [02:43]:

When did you find out? Do you want to talk about from your perspective how it all went down?

David Scolari [02:49]:

Yeah. I guess probably the first time I knew that you had been through something was I think were driving to my aunt and uncle's down in Long Beach Island. On the drive there, you nervously told me that you were seeing a therapist for some things, and I'm sure you were like, oh my gosh, I'm going to tell this guy and he's going to be like, "Get out." In the middle of the Pine Barrens and drive away never to be seen again.

Alyssa Scolari [03:25]:

I did. It was so funny. I dropped that on you like, to the listeners out there, when we were dating, I at first didn't tell him I was in therapy because at the time I guess I embraced the shame and stigma around being in therapy, which I no longer do. I now have no problem and will tell the whole world, obviously, that I'm in therapy, but I was a different person back then. What I did was I waited until we were in the car, so you couldn't abandon me. We were on a barren road where there was no cellphone service. I don't think consciously I was doing that on purpose, but I think subconsciously I was definitely like, "All right, I'm going to trap him, tell him I'm in therapy and there's nowhere for him to run."

David Scolari [04:10]:

For folks who aren't familiar, in South Jersey, there are what we call the Pine Barren forests, and when you're driving through A, yes, there is no cell phone reception, B, there's like nobody out there, no houses, no towns, no convenience stores for long stretches of the road. So yeah, you're not turning around, you're not going anywhere, you can't just drop somebody off there. I mean, unless, I don't know, you were the mafia and you were doing something down there, but anyways, so yeah.

Alyssa Scolari [04:41]:

Yeah. I made it so that you couldn't leave me, but even then I didn't tell you that I had a history of trauma because I didn't know.

David Scolari [04:50]:

Right. Yeah. I mean, that's the first time I knew you had some things you were going through or working through-

Alyssa Scolari [04:50]:

Eating disorder wise.

David Scolari [04:50]:

Right.

Alyssa Scolari [04:57]:

But when in your recollection were we talking about the fact that I then had PTSD? I don't think it wasn't until after we were married.

David Scolari [05:11]:

Yeah. Because I don't think you really uncovered your trauma and kind of started to come to terms with some of it until after we were married.

Alyssa Scolari [05:24]:

Conveniently.

David Scolari [05:24]:

Which, by then, we were locked in baby and I wasn't going anywhere.

Alyssa Scolari [05:31]:

Which obviously we kid. Part of the reason why I really thought, again, that it would be helpful to have David on here is because he sort of has been through this process with me and he can look at it from a different lens. He didn't know what he was walking into. Obviously, we got married and then it wasn't until shortly after we got married that I started to have all of these memories come to the surface. Can you tell me what that was like for you? Because there's so much I truthfully don't remember because I was in such a bad place.

David Scolari [06:13]:

Yeah. I mean, obviously you were, it's tough, right? Because you have your good days and your bad days and some days we were just in the middle of doing something random, watching TV, going out somewhere, talking to somebody, hanging out, and you can start having those memories flood back into your consciousness there. I'll be very honest, I would say probably the word to use would just be unexpected, because with the recovery process and remembering things, you don't, there would just be days again where it, just out of the blue you would be angry, you would be sad, you would be enraged, you would be all sorts of emotions and I would kind of just be blindsided by it. Yeah, it was never consistent in terms of when you would uncover stuff and remember things and then have all those emotions associated with that. Sometimes, you wouldn't even know why you're crying or being mad or angry just because you were dissociating or other things. It would just come out of the blue.

Alyssa Scolari [07:32]:

What was that like for you being on that kind of roller coaster?

David Scolari [07:40]:

I mean, I think the word roller coaster is an apt kind of way to describe it. It can be challenging sometimes, because it can just come out of the blue and sometimes no matter the words that I say or the actions that I take, it's just sometimes a process where we got to cry it out. We got to yell it out, scream it out, and let your body kind of just process in the moment what you were remembering or going through or the things you were feeling.

Alyssa Scolari [08:13]:

I'm sure that for those of you listening, if you have loved ones who have PTSD or complex PTSD and are going through this journey or did at one point, this is probably all sounding very familiar to you where it's like, especially if you're married to that person or that person is your romantic partner, it's sort of like one minute we're talking about something that's seemingly not emotional, he's asking me what I want for dinner and I'm curled up in a ball and the couch sobbing because I can't make up my mind. I'm frustrated because now I'm having flashbacks of other times when I couldn't make up my mind in the middle of a trauma. He's like, "What? I just asked you if you wanted pizza or spaghetti." And I'm balling and it's comical in retrospect. Right?

I mean, wouldn't you say like it's funny in retrospect? But, let me tell you something. When somebody asks you if you want, or if you're that person that's like, "Hey babe, do you want pizza for dinner or would you like chicken?" And that person just curls up into a ball and sobs, it's, I think, extremely stressful and extremely taxing. Right? Then, on top of it, we had the pandemic. We've been stuck. Not stuck, because I like you. I mean I love you. I'm such a jerk. We've been in this house for, which our house is not big. It's very small, very close corners, close corners, or close quarters?

David Scolari [10:05]:

Quarters.

Alyssa Scolari [10:06]:

Oh, okay. Well, there we go.

David Scolari [10:08]:

Dave, edit that out.

Alyssa Scolari [10:10]:

Yep. Edit that out, Dave. We've really not had any time apart, and I've still been going through quite a bit. Does that, like are there times where you're just at your wit's end?

David Scolari [10:33]:

Oh, yeah. I mean, sure. Sometimes, again, just because what you're remembering, what you're feeling, or what happened that has brought forth, whether it's at your job or whatever, has kind of brought forth memories. Sometimes, I'm trying to calm you down, I'm trying to get you grounded again. Sometimes I can say things and it helps ground you. Sometimes what I say doesn't help ground yet.

Alyssa Scolari [10:33]:

Sometimes it makes it worse.

David Scolari [11:06]:

Sometimes the dogs do a much better job of grounding you than I do. In fact, they probably way, way better.

Alyssa Scolari [11:16]:

I like my pets.

David Scolari [11:17]:

Indeed.

Alyssa Scolari [11:19]:

What are some things that you think people can do when they see their loved ones struggling when they see their loved ones dissociating, because this has been a learning process for you as well. This isn't something that I've been going through by myself. I've been going through it with you. Although, at times it feels like I'm by myself. What are some things that you have learned along the way that could help?

David Scolari [11:48]:

Probably, one, patience. I think even in when I go, "Do you want Wendy's or McDonald's?" And you then start bawling out on the couch. I'm like, "Oh, this this ... Oh, okay. We can go someplace else." But no, when that happens, I think the first thing that even sometimes when I'm like, "Ooh, this is like the third time today where we're having a meltdown." There's part of me, that's like, "Ooh, not again, here we go." Part of what helps get me through it is to realize that it's not you. It's the people or events that have caused the trauma that is now welling up inside of you. To recognize that it's not you being a bad person or anything like that, but it's those events and those people. It really helps put it into context and allows me to go, "Okay, hey, maybe this is the third time we're bawling our eyes out on the couch today, but that's okay. We have a rollercoaster ride ahead of us and we'll be there and get through the ups and the downs." I think that's one, just kind of having that context.

Alyssa Scolari [13:15]:

Just reminding yourself and reframing like, "This is not that person. This is that person's trauma. That person is not fully present right now."

David Scolari [13:27]:

Yep. Not letting the trauma define the person, you in this particular case. I think that's hugely important for anybody, that reframing that, putting it into context really allows you to see the person that you've fallen in love with.

Alyssa Scolari [13:47]:

Well, how is it that you know and are able to tell when I'm dissociated, or when I'm not present? And how are you able to tell it's the trauma? Because I think some people out there, and I think, you don't have a background in trauma, right? You have no degree in trauma. This has been such a learning experience. I think that there are a lot of people out there that have zero experience with trauma, have a loved one who's been through trauma and like, how are they supposed to tell if it's dissociation and how are they supposed to calm their own defenses? How can they educate themselves? How can they calm their own defenses? Because I'm sure there are times when I am dissociated and there have been times where we have fought and you have lost your patience. What would you recommend for somebody who just has no understanding of even what dissociation is?

David Scolari [14:48]:

Yeah. I think it's really having a conversation with the person who is going through that trauma, whether it's a friend or spouse or whatever. I think for you and me in particular, having conversations either outside of your episodes of crying or anger or whatever.

Alyssa Scolari [15:14]:

After I've calmed down and grounded myself a little bit.

David Scolari [15:18]:

Yeah. I mean, honestly I think it's ... I think I've learned the most, and again, maybe this isn't for everybody, but I've always learned the most about what you've been through and what you're thinking, or have felt at the time like right after we've kind of grounded you a bit and gotten you to a point where you've calmed down a bit, then we're able to like, we have some really good conversations that can go from anywhere from five minutes to maybe an hour or more. We kind of just break down like what you were feeling, what memories came back, and that has really helped me put things into context in terms of, "Oh, okay, this is what triggered this thought.' Or, "This is what welled up inside of you." That's really just added more and more context over the years that I've known you and we've been going through this process and yeah, just really helps put it all into context.

Alyssa Scolari [16:25]:

I think one of the biggest takeaways from that is this, the concept that it's not going to be helpful to talk it out in the moment always. It's really important to try to help that person when they're really triggered or really dissociated to get to a state of calm first, because when I'm dissociated, there's really no talking it out with me because you won't win. Whatever you say, I hate it. In that moment you're not David, right, in my eyes. You're one of my abusers. In that moment, I can't stand you. Whatever you say is going to be wrong. It's going to make me worse. I'm not going to like it. I'm going to say something that's going to trigger you. Then, that's how blow ups happen. One of the things that you've really learned, which I think is going to be helpful for people to hear, is that it's not really about talking it out in the moment. It's about what can we do to ... How can I help this person to ground themselves and calm down, and then we will revisit this later.

David Scolari [17:34]:

Absolutely. What, and I think you you've said this often, especially sometimes in the moment. Me, I'm a very logical sort of person.

Alyssa Scolari [17:46]:

Ugh, are you ever.

David Scolari [17:50]:

I always try and talk things out and you're like, "Listen, I totally, logically, get what you're saying. I hear you David, but I don't, like I can't feel that." With the disassociation, you may hear the words, you may agree with the words in some part of your brain, but another part of your brain is just blowing up and being like, "I don't care what you're saying. I'm just in this space right now where I'm hearing it, but I'm not processing it."

Alyssa Scolari [18:22]:

Yeah. I think that's exactly it. Going back to even something that might not seem trauma related, like when we first got married and we, as David said, he is all about logic and I am all about like flying by the seam of your pants. Like, okay, let's not look at our bank account. Let's just get on a plane and go on vacation. David's like, "Okay, but the budget." Right? Speaking of budgets, when we first got married, he was like, "Okay, well let's create a budget." Because we really did not have, I mean, we were very poor when we, I think it's fair to say.

David Scolari [19:01]:

Oh yeah.

Alyssa Scolari [19:01]:

Yeah, we were extremely, extremely poor when we first started out.

David Scolari [19:06]:

Nonprofits, surprisingly, don't pay a lot of money.

Alyssa Scolari [19:10]:

Who would've thought? We both met working in a nonprofit and in that nonprofit I was an employee and David was a volunteer. We really were making like the salary of one person working at a nonprofit.

David Scolari [19:27]:

Right. Probably more like a salary of somebody working at McDonald's or Wal-Mart.

Alyssa Scolari [19:33]:

Yes, we were essentially making minimum wage. David was like, "Budget. We got to look at a budget." I, for, and now I kind of understand, I understand a lot more why now, but this is like three years removed. Back then, when we talked about a budget, I lost my ever loving shit. I mean, like shut down, cried hysterically, or got mad at him because he wanted to do a budget and I would refuse. That was a point of contention, like one of the biggest points of contention in our marriage, I think, when we first started out. It was a huge trigger for me. Now I understand why, but back then I had no idea.

Again, it's not always helpful to try to figure it out in the moment, because logically I knew we had no money. I knew we had a ton of debt. And I knew that budgeting was the only way that we were going to be able to sustain ourselves. Emotionally, I mean, my emotions took over and I was incoragable. You couldn't talk to me about budgeting at all. I thought, I mean, I thought you were going to kill me. I'm sure you want to do at times. Because he would just say the B word, he would say budget, and he could just, right?

David Scolari [19:33]:

Oh yeah.

Alyssa Scolari [21:05]:

Like, you could just see the change in me.

David Scolari [21:09]:

Yeah.

Alyssa Scolari [21:10]:

You might not have the answers. You might not be able to talk it out in the moment, but I also think it helps you've learned a lot coming to therapy with me. It helps that I'm a trauma therapist so I've been able to teach you a lot about trauma. For the listeners out there, I don't think everybody kind of has that luxury of happen to be dating or married to somebody who specializes in trauma. One of the things that I think helped you and could help other people out there is go to therapy with your partner.

David Scolari [21:43]:

Or find maybe like a support group or something.

Alyssa Scolari [21:47]:

Yes. Because, it's very hard. If you are the one supporting the person through their recovery journey, it is very, very difficult and very taxing on the relationship. David has come to therapy with me. I think you learned a lot. You've read books on trauma. I think you've even learned a lot through editing this podcast.

David Scolari [22:09]:

Yeah. Also, the nonprofit we worked for did a lot of trauma informed sorts of trainings, even though I myself am not a therapist. All employees did a lot of that sort of training because they wanted to be a trauma informed organization.

Alyssa Scolari [22:25]:

Yep. Pick up a book, go to therapy, find a support group, because it's so important to recognize that this is very taxing for our loved ones who are trying to support us through this. What are some ways that you have found that help me and could potentially help other people with trauma, like ground themselves in the moment?

David Scolari [22:50]:

Sure. I mean, listen, sometimes I am able to just talk it through a little bit and get you grounded that way. I would say the other way would, I mean honestly, be the dogs. I mean, they do the most ridiculous things during some of your most intense episodes there and it just causes us to laugh. I think that that moment of our dogs laying in the most awkward position possible coming up and licking your face or doing other things just gives that two second break in what you're going through, that dissociation, and kind of makes you laugh for a little bit.

You might still be in that dissociation a little bit, but then I see really that you start to come down off of that dissociation because just the dogs and the situations and the things that they do or just they coming up and you petting them just really helps calm you down and kind of grounds you. Sometimes pets, other kind of external stimulus that can be, I don't know, relaxing, or just to kind of break that tension there in a dissociation, I think, can be really helpful or has been helpful for you.

Alyssa Scolari [24:25]:

Yeah. I mean, I think redirecting me, sometimes you will get me out of the room that I'm in. Sometimes you'll encourage me to take a bath. Sometimes he will encourage me to work out even when I don't want to, and I might curse the entire time, but then after I do it, I feel better. I think that you help in a big way by taking care of a lot of like the, kind of like the mundane tasks around the house and making sure that I'm like fed and hydrated and taking my meds. You do a lot. I mean, there's a lot that you do that helps me be able to manage all of this. But with that being said, sometimes I think that supporters of those who have trauma, if they take on too much, then their plate gets overwhelmed and there is only so much you can take. Right?

One of the reasons why the dogs helped me so much, just because dogs have never hurt me, right? Men have hurt me. Men have abused me. That's why sometimes, as great as you are, you're still a symbol for everything that has hurt me. Sometimes I want nothing to do with you. Sometimes I just need to be with my dogs. Sometimes, I will just verbally kind of assault you. What would you recommend for somebody who's in that position? For somebody who's sort of trying to support their loved one through their PTSD journey, but is also like, okay, I'm kind of at the end of my rope here as well, because I think we get to those spots too as a couple where it can be you're at the end of your rope, I'm at the end of my rope. Okay. Well now what? What do you recommend?

David Scolari [26:42]:

I think the key here is really taking care of yourself. Yes. We're going to say that word self care, or maybe it's two words. Is it? Is it two words or is it one word, hyphenated?

Alyssa Scolari [26:56]:

It's two words.

David Scolari [26:57]:

Two words. All right, well.

Alyssa Scolari [26:58]:

Self-care for you.

David Scolari [26:59]:

Self-care for me, yes.

Alyssa Scolari [27:00]:

Yes.

David Scolari [27:02]:

I don't know, reading a book, playing video games, watching my own show that I like or something like that can just give me that mental little break to help me recover a little bit so that the next time you're having an disassociation or whatever, I'm mentally refreshed. I think that's key is, yes, taking care of the person who has that trauma, of course. Cleaning or cooking or making sure the person is taking their meds and encouraging them, sitting through with them as they go through a dissociation or an episode or whatever, those are all things that are important to do. You also, there is something to be said when we hear about self care is you got to take care of yourself before you can take care of somebody else. If you're not eating, if you're not taking a mental break, if you're not doing X, Y, or Z for yourself, that helps you physically and mentally, you're not going to be able to take care of the other person. I think that really is key, to do stuff for yourself. Whatever that may be.

Alyssa Scolari [28:12]:

Yeah. I think that that's important because the supporters of those who are in recovery can't pour from an empty cup. I just want to be clear that what we're saying here is not drop everything that's important to you as the supporter and take care of the person going through recovery. It's trying to find a balance of supporting your partner while also taking care of yourself. Wouldn't you agree?

David Scolari [28:49]:

Yes, ma'am.

Alyssa Scolari [28:51]:

But then I also think that even with all of that being said, right, there are going to be times where it's still going to feel like too much. At that point there also, I think, should be a discussion. Wouldn't you agree?

David Scolari [29:14]:

Yeah, sure.

Alyssa Scolari [29:16]:

What does that discussion look like? It's not like, "I don't love you and can't help you anymore." Right? But also, like, you can't be expected as the supporter to lay down and kind of take, especially if you're the target, right? Just because we're supporting somebody through PTSD recovery doesn't mean that we kind of lay down and a doormat and allow ourselves to be targets for their anger or rage or whatever it may be. Sometimes we do that as trauma survivors. I do it. I've done it to Dave quite a few times. What do you recommend for people who find themselves in that position, but are afraid to speak up for fear that like, well, this person's already going through so much. I don't want to tell them that what they did hurt my feelings.

David Scolari [30:10]:

Yeah. I mean, I think once that person has calmed down and grounded themselves, I think it's perfectly acceptable to then kind of go up and say like, "Hey, listen, I know you were going through that dissociation and whatnot. You were saying X, Y, and Z things because of the trauma you had in the past, but that really hurt." Or, "I didn't like the way you did this or said that." Because I think that's important because everybody's a human being, right? We all make mistakes and we all have feelings and emotions, whether we've been through trauma or not. You, as the support person, are more, are entitled to your feelings and entitled to respect and whatnot.

We can understand that the person or the loved one, whoever they are, has been through trauma and is saying these things, again, as we mentioned earlier in the episode. Context is important and we can understand that they're saying this yelling, screaming, crying, saying things to you that may hurt your feelings because, not because again they're a bad person, but because they have had bad things done to them. That being said, you also are a human being who has emotions. You also are entitled to respect and to love and all that stuff. Yeah. Sometimes just saying it and hearing, being able to say like, "Oh yeah, I'm sorry. I didn't mean it. I just was in the dissociation." Like, listen, I know that, I don't get, my feelings may be hurt, but at the end of the day I know it's not you being bad or trying to be mean to me intentionally. Yeah. But even just hearing that sorry, and like, yeah, that was a bridge too far just reaffirms that that love and respect that you have for me And I have for you when helps me move on.

Alyssa Scolari [32:19]:

I guess my last question for you is of, it's been such a difficult process and such a hard thing for you to see me through and for me to go through, obviously. What would you say, because I noticed, and I think about this often that if you hadn't seen me through this, you'd be a very different person today. What about you and who you are has changed for the better because of what I've gone through and what you've supported me through?

David Scolari [33:05]:

I think I've, one, become more open about talking about my feelings, which is something that I didn't do before I met you. I generally, I'm a private person. I don't like to talk about those things, but having met you-

Alyssa Scolari [33:28]:

I'm doing a happy dance right now because it's so true. You didn't like to talk about anything.

David Scolari [33:35]:

No, that's true.

Alyssa Scolari [33:35]:

Now, here you are pulling stuff out of me. Sorry, I said I wasn't going to steam roll and I'm steam rolling. Go on.

David Scolari [33:44]:

No, go right on ahead. It's your podcast. You can do what you want. Yeah. I think, one, talking about my feelings more, whether it's related to something that happened during a dissociation episode, or just something that happened at work or in life in general, just talking more about that, which I think has been extremely helpful for me to kind of be able to talk about and process those things. That's certainly something that's helped me keep me grounded and sane and whatnot. I think at the end of the day, as I learned more and more about you and I love you more each and every single day. Yeah. I think, I know when we started dating and whatnot you were always afraid of, "Well, if I tell him this happened to me or that I'm in therapy or this, he'll love me less." But I don't, I love you more each and every single day.

Alyssa Scolari [34:50]:

It's given you a lot more patience.

David Scolari [34:53]:

Indeed.

Alyssa Scolari [34:55]:

I think it's helped to you to get to know me on a deeper level.

David Scolari [34:58]:

Mm-hmm[affirmative].

Alyssa Scolari [35:01]:

It's helped me like in the same regards, it's helped me to get to know you on a deeper level as well. Well, thank you. I appreciate you coming on here, because I know that you're more of a behind the scenes kind of guy. But, it's definitely important. To all the trauma survivors out there, tell your supports how much they mean to you and to the ones who are listening who are supporters, you mean the world to us. We couldn't get through this process without supports in our lives. Thank you. As difficult as it may be sometimes, and I just want to point out that this is David's perspective. This is one person's perspective. Somebody else might feel differently about it. That's okay too.

If anybody has any questions about what we talked about and questions for David, please feel free to reach out. You can reach out on my Instagram or my Facebook, or you can email me or go on my website, which is just the Alyssascolari.com. Feel free to ask questions, because this, I think, is a really important topic and not one that we have talked enough about. With that being said, very thankful for my husband, for Dave, for everything that he does for me. The podcast would not be possible without him. Yeah, I think that's all we got. I think that's a wrap.

David Scolari [36:40]:

That's a wrap.

Alyssa Scolari [36:44]:

The last thing that I wanted to just let you all know is that I have started a Patreon. You will see it in the show notes. We have really, really enjoyed, well, I have really enjoyed creating this podcast and creating this awesome content for all of you. I am honestly shocked that in less than six months this podcast has just taken off. It's taken off in ways that I never thought that it would. As it's gotten bigger and bigger, it's requiring much more time, much more effort, and quite a bit of money. I did start a Patreon. If you like what you hear and you are interested in contributing at all to that, I would greatly appreciate it. Any little bit counts and all the money goes towards really just helping to keep this content awesome. As great as it is, keep it high quality and to just keep things rolling out smoothly on a weekly basis. Just wanted to let you all know about that.

Again, any contribution would be greatly appreciated. Thanks for listening everyone. For more information about today's episode, and to sign up for the Light After Trauma newsletter, head over to my website at Alyssascolari.com. The really great thing about being a part of this newsletter is that not only do you get weekly updates on new podcast episodes and blog posts, but you also get access to the private Facebook community as well as access to all sorts of insider tips, resources, and info graphs that supplement what we talk about on the show. You also can connect with me and other trauma warriors. I'm super active on the Facebook community. I look forward to talking with you.

Voiceover [38:39]:

[singing].

Tianna and Alyssa discuss the different types of eating disorders and how they can be linked to trauma. Tianna is a dietician that teaches people how to ditch dieting and achieve food freedom by intuitive eating.

Learn more about Tianna's work at: realisticrootsnutrition.com

Check out the Light After Trauma website for transcripts, other episodes, Alyssa's guest appearances, and more at: www.lightaftertrauma.com

Want to get more great content and interact with the show? Check us out on Instagram: @lightaftertrauma

We need your help! We want to continue to make great content that can help countless trauma warriors on their journey to recovery. So, please help us in supporting the podcast by becoming a recurring patron of the show via Patreon. Every bit helps!

Transcript:

Alyssa Scolari [00:23]:

Hey everybody. Happy Tuesday. We've got another exciting episode for you on the Light After Trauma Podcast. I am your host, Alyssa Scolari. We are talking about literally one of my favorite topics ever today, intuitive eating and I have with us dietician, Tianna Smith. Tianna has been helping teens and women improve their physical and mental health by teaching them how to learn to trust their bodies and love food again. She has been in this business for 10 years and she is just as enthusiastic about intuitive eating as I am. And when I discovered her page and her social media content, I was like I have to have her on the show. So hi, Tianna. Welcome.

Tianna Smith [01:16]:

Hi. Thank you so much for having me.

Alyssa Scolari [01:20]:

Thank you for being here. Would you mind just talking a little bit about, like a little bit more about what it is that you do. Because I think when people hear like the word dietician, they're like, Oh, diets, weight loss.

Tianna Smith [01:35]:

Yes. I love that you just asked me that because it's so true. Every time I tell somebody that I am a dietician, their first reaction is to tell me about all of the diets they've done in their life and how proud they are that they've done all these diets. And it makes me laugh a little bit because even though the word diet is in my title of dietitian, I am an anti-diet dietician. And so what I do is I help re-educate people to learn how to actually feed themselves through trusting their own bodies.

And, you know, there's so much misinformation out there about what you should eat, what you shouldn't eat when you should eat, when you should not eat, how much you should eat. There's so many rules that try to dictate how we should take care of ourselves. And a lot of them are very conflicting. And so I really love what I do because I help people realize how to actually care for their own personal body, because we all are very different. We're individuals and we all have different bodies and different likes and dislikes and hunger cues and all of that. So it's very complex. And so I really help people learn to, like I said, just trust their own personal body so that they can be really mentally and physically.

Alyssa Scolari [03:01]:

Yes. I love it. I love it. And it's almost about bringing people back to the basics, I feel like. You know, there's just this one story that really sticks with me that one of my patients had said to me, so one of my patients has a child and she's, I think she's four. And she was saying like, the child wanted a piece of cake and she gave the child a piece of cake and the child ate half of the piece of cake and was like, okay, Mommy, like no more. And the mom was like, you're not going to eat the whole cake? Like who has a piece of cake and doesn't eat the whole thing? And the child was just like, my belly is full. And I was like that right there is the epitome of intuitive eating. And it's amazing to me because we're already born knowing how to eat intuitively, but as we grow up, I feel like we lose it. Right? Would you agree with that?

Tianna Smith [04:07]:

Oh my gosh, you just nailed it. You nailed that. That is exactly true. We are all natural born intuitive eaters. And unfortunately, usually our parents or some other adults messes that up for us along the way. And this is obviously usually very unintentional from parents and adults and other people. But yeah, we were all born with hunger and fullness cues and cravings, and I always like to remind people that our cravings are not bad and children before they are exposed to diet culture and fat-phobia are exactly that. They are intuitive eaters and really what I do is I try to help people get back to that. So to get back to what they were always supposed to do since birth really.

Alyssa Scolari [05:02]:

Yeah. Yep. And it's the most freeing thing to be able to get to that spot.

Tianna Smith [05:08]:

Yes. Absolutely.

Alyssa Scolari [05:11]:

Now how did you find yourself in this profession?

Tianna Smith [05:16]:

So I actually had a friend when I was in high school who struggled with an eating disorder and she told me that her dietician was super helpful for her in her treatment. And so I decided in that moment, I was 17, that I wanted to be a dietician that specifically worked with girls who had eating disorders. I thought that sounds like such an awesome profession. I really think I would love that. And so actually before I started my private practice, about four years ago, I strictly worked at eating disorder facilities.

So I worked for seven different eating disorder facilities over the course of about eight years. And I just fell in love with that work. Being able to help people heal their relationship with food and their bodies was just amazing. I'm still doing that. I still see a lot of clients that suffer from eating disorders, but in my private practice, I also branched off and really do a lot more of the intuitive eating work as well. And so, yeah, I've been doing this work half my life pretty much, I feel like, so very rewarding. I've never regretted a day event.

Alyssa Scolari [06:31]:

Yeah. It's, I'm sure. I am sure. Now you work with, when you say that you work with people with eating disorders, could you talk a little bit about the different types of eating disorders out there? Because I feel as though when people think of eating disorders, they jumped primarily to anorexia or bulimia and I think eating disorders are a lot more complex. So can you speak to a little bit about like what comes across your practice? What kind of clients you've seen?

Tianna Smith [07:05]:

Yeah. So I see so many different types of people with so many different struggles. I mean, I could have two people that have bulimia, but it actually unfolds a lot differently for both of them. And so, yes, I do see people that struggle with anorexia and bulimia and also ARFID, that's something that a lot of people haven't heard of, that's avoidant restricting feeding intake disorder, sorry, it's a tongue twister, and also binge eating disorder. And so, you know, it's very, very complex. There is no one size fits all. People are of all sizes, all races, all backgrounds. I see such a complex diverse group of women in my practice. So yeah, they aren't what most people would think that textbook of like, Oh, somebody is anorexic, they must be underweight or it must be obvious that they have an eating disorder. That is so, so, so far from the truth.

And I think that because of that misconception, a lot of people don't get the help that they need because they're afraid that people won't believe that it's a true disorder, that it's a true struggle in their life. And so that's something that I'm always trying to speak out against is that no matter what somebody's size or background or behaviors, if you're struggling with an eating disorder or disordered eating, you are worthy of help. And so there's a lot of education. I think that still needs to be done for people to really understand what all goes into it. It's very complex.

Alyssa Scolari [08:49]:

A hundred percent. And I think it's also important to point out that eating disorders, you know, I know for, for me personally, in my journey to eating disorder recovery, as well as the folks that I work with in my private practice, sometimes I started out being, I would say with binge eating disorder and then I flip flopped to anorexia. But even when I was at my weakest and my sickest, I don't think looking at me, you would have known that I had had anorexia. Everybody told me that I looked so healthy, but I was starving and cold all the time and just always in a fog. So it also changes. There's no, definitely like you said one size fits all when it comes to eating disorders and the eating disorder usually is always changing.

Tianna Smith [09:46]:

So I really liked how you mentioned that you were getting praised when people were commenting just on your weight loss, despite you probably really suffering at that time and then were probably restricting and not taking care of yourself. Why as a whole world, like we need to refrain and don't know what they may be going through. I think people just assume if somebody's lost weight, that that means they're healthier now, but in some cases, and in probably all of my client's cases, they are actually praising a very serious mental illness. And so, you know, I think that the more that we can refrain from talking about other people's bodies, the better.

Alyssa Scolari [10:36]:

Yes. Like let's stop talking about people's bodies and stop saying like, Oh my gosh, you look so good because you have no idea. And what you end up doing is you end up only further reinforcing the eating disorder, which is that, well, I only get attention and I'm only worthy of love and praise and affection if I'm dying inside.

Tianna Smith [11:04]:

You know, I think as human beings really want in this world is for accepted. And unfortunately, so many people believe that they need to look a certain way or fit a certain mold in order for that to happen. But the reality is, is when we are trapped in an eating disorder or disordered eating, or even just diet culture, that isolates a person. That makes a person struggle to feel comfortable and confident going out in the world and living their life as they should. And so I love the work that I get to do because I help people feel more comfortable with their body, not by changing it at all, but by being able to learn how to respect and honor it. And I think that that is a big mindset shift that a lot of people need to be able to make so that they can heal their relationship with their body.

Alyssa Scolari [12:04]:

Yeah. And in your experience with the work that you do, do the people that you see often see a therapist as well?

Tianna Smith [12:17]:

Yeah. So if I'm working with somebody with an eating disorder, absolutely. A lot of my clients who struggle with disordered eating also do see therapists, but it isn't always as pertinent. But I think that, you know, my own personal opinion is everybody should be in therapy.

Alyssa Scolari [12:32]:

Yes [crosstalk 00:12:33].

Tianna Smith [12:33]:

... so, so good for our mental health. And even if you don't have a mental health diagnosis, therapy is amazing and important.

Alyssa Scolari [12:43]:

Preach.

Tianna Smith [12:43]:

So yeah, I'm all about, I'm all about therapists. I have [crosstalk 00:12:49]

Alyssa Scolari [12:49]:

You love therapy. It's the best. And the reason why I asked you that question is because, when I talk about eating disorders on a trauma focused podcast and eating disorders at the root are really so much about control. And typically we develop disordered eating behaviors and eating disorders because we're trying to gain back some of that control that we don't have. And I think that part of it also is everything that we see on social media, which is just the constant, like tiny waist, big butt, like being thick, being thin. It can be so confusing.

Tianna Smith [13:44]:

You know, then trying to change your body in a way that isn't biologically natural for you. Like not every person is supposed to look a certain way. So I love using an example of like dogs. I don't know if you've heard of the term poodle science before.

Alyssa Scolari [14:01]:

No. What is that?

Tianna Smith [14:03]:

With this idea of poodle science, it's like no matter how much you starved a bull mastiff, it will never look like a poodle. And I like to even use it [inaudible 00:14:16] even more certain examples of like, no matter how much you starved a bull mastiff, it will never look like a chihuahua. You know? And similar to dogs, and it sounds silly to compare human beings to dogs, but we aren't supposed to, to all look like a chihuahua.

Some people are, and some people aren't, but in diet culture, we're convinced that if we do all of these diets or intermittent fasting or whatever, that we will look like a chihuahua and that is just silly. It is impossible. And so again, a lot of the work that I do is helping people accept their biological blueprint, how they are genetically supposed to be. And I always like to pose the question of, you know, yeah, you could fight biology the rest of your life, but what is that life going to look like? And what are you going to miss out on if you continue to try to control your body and fight nature?

Alyssa Scolari [15:21]:

Yeah.

Tianna Smith [15:23]:

That's a hard pill to swallow for a lot of people.

Alyssa Scolari [15:27]:

It is. But I, you know, at the same time swallowing that pill, and this is what I try to tell people. I mean, you know, as you're speaking, I'm thinking last night I was with a family and the family was talking about what they were going to have for dinner. And they were talking about how there were, they had these like homemade raviolis and you know, mom was like, yeah, you know, everybody will be eating the raviolis and I'll be eating my salmon. And I'm like, no, eat those raviolis. And like, it made me so sad for her, because like you said, you could spend your whole life trying to change your biological blueprint. Meanwhile, you're missing out on some delicious raviolis, well spent family time, which to me is priceless.

Tianna Smith [16:23]:

Yeah. Well, and another lens that you could take with that example, I love that example, is that we also have to think about what we're modeling for our children. And in that type of a scenario, we are modeling for our children that raviolis are bad and that they're forbidden. And that salmon is better than raviolis. When really salmon is not better than raviolis, it's just different. You're getting different nutrients. And so it's not that one is better than the other. We need carbohydrates from raviolis and we need protein from salmon. So one is not better than the other.

They are just going to nourish our bodies in different ways and provide our bodies with different nutrients. But I think that one thing that a lot of parents struggle with and kind of not, I wouldn't even say struggle with, they just don't realize, they're kind of naive to this idea that, they're constantly watching them and learning from them and they are picking up on all the things that they're doing. And so if you, as parents, are dieting and also talking really bad about yourself, your kids are going to pick up on that and that is going to affect their relationship with food and their relationship with their body. So, yeah, it's a whole thing that a lot of people just don't have much insight, I think. And so I love being able to educate people on that too.

Alyssa Scolari [17:54]:

Yeah. And people truly don't have the knowledge. I mean, when you bring it up to people, they're like, oh, I never even thought of it that way. But I do remember being a little girl and seeing everybody in my family on Weight Watchers and then what happened? Well, I was like, I think 19 and was on Weight Watchers and you know what started my fad dieting. And it's like children pick up on everything. And by engaging in diet culture, you are also passing it down to the generations beneath you.

Tianna Smith [18:31]:

Absolutely. It is so generational. And that's one of the things in my course, Food Freedom University, I talked a lot about that and how what we do absolutely will affect generations to come. And we can stop that poor, negative generational issue with food and our body image in our own family. And I think that that's so powerful to know that this can stop with you. Your kids don't have to feel like they need to diet, and they also don't need to feel horrible about their genetic blueprint or their bodies. And so it's absolutely a spiral effect through years and years like throughout history.

Alyssa Scolari [19:19]:

Yeah. So can you tell me more about Food Freedom University?

Tianna Smith [19:24]:

Yes. Absolutely. So Food Freedom University is my online digital course. So it's an eight week course where you get eight prerecorded modules that contain two to four lessons each. I also have developed a lot of assignments in handouts over the last 10 years that go along with each lesson. And it's really the most effective way, in my opinion, to learning how to become an intuitive eater and heal your relationship with food. So it's very, very in depth. It goes into all of the different principles of intuitive eating. And then I also add in a whole lot of really good body image work.

So I love it. I think it's an amazing course. You get a lot of group support and a lot of support from me as well. Clients that are also in Food Freedom University get a discounted rate on my individual services. So I don't want anybody to feel like they need to try to figure out how to become an intuitive eater on their own because reading a book and actually applying it are two very different things. So, you know, having a guide like myself, I'm a certified, intuitive eating counselor and a dietician. So it just makes the process so much easier to understand when you have somebody to kind of help you through it.

Alyssa Scolari [20:44]:

Yes. I agree with that a hundred percent. I think that when I first learned about intuitive eating, I have a close friend who is a, she's now an RD and she was the one who introduced me to the concept of intuitive eating years ago. And I had bought books and read everything that I could about intuitive eating, but it's so much different.

And then I found a nutritionist who truly was an intuitive eating nutritionist because I've had many nutritionists who say that they are, and then looking back on it, I'm like, Oh, you actually aren't because you had me measuring things. And you know, that was not, we don't like measuring. So it wasn't until I started working with her that I really learns how to intuitively eat. And I don't know if you do this at all. But one of the first things that she had me do was ice cream was one of those things that I was like had major food rules about and was like, I can only have ice cream on Saturdays and I am having Ben and Jerry's and I will down an entire pint and it will only be on Saturday.

So of course I would spend all week obsessing over what pint of ice cream I was going to have. What flavor was I going to pick? Was it going to be the Tonight Dough? Is it going to be Cherry Garcia? Who knows? And then I would eat the whole thing. I would feel sick afterwards and what my nutritionist did with me, she was like, you're going to have ice cream every single night, every single night. And I of course throw a fit. And honestly, I thought she was insane. But I, to this day, if I want a pint of Ben and Jerry's like, yes, I will eat the whole pint, but I have not felt that I've wanted it. And the same thing, you know, I did the same thing with cookies because having cookies in the house was a big no-no for me. And now, I mean, I had an entire box of like fresh baked chocolate chip cookies in the house that I didn't feel the need to eat all of them. And to me, that's the ultimate freedom.

Tianna Smith [23:03]:

Yeah. Absolutely. And I think that that's so hard for so many people is like believing that when you actually give yourself that permission to eat the things that you enjoy, you're actually going to binge less and you're going to eventually stop binging altogether. And so it's definitely something that takes a lot of space. And I always ask my clients you're going to need to put some trust in me. Because I recognize that some of the things that I'm going to advise you to do, like eating ice cream every night is going to sound insane. And I've had a lot of clients that are like, wow, never expected you to tell us that we should have carbs at every meal, for example. You know? And I'm like, well, yeah, like when you deprive yourself that only puts more power in the food and only it's going to increase the likelihood that you're going to binge on that food later. So, it's better to spread it out throughout the day than to have it all in one sitting. You know?

Alyssa Scolari [24:08]:

Yep. Absolutely. And you know the other thing that I wanted to ask is because I have so many people who walk into my office and they're like, I'm not on a diet, but then when they actually talk about what they're doing, it's a diet. So could you speak to that a little bit about like just the concept of clean eating and how to spot a diet in disguise? Because I think there are so many people out there that are like, Oh, I just eat clean. And don't realize that they're actually on a diet.

Tianna Smith [24:50]:

I love to use that example of clean eating because it's probably one of the more irritating phrases. [inaudible 00:24:59] don't understand how damaging it can be to think like that, that if you're not eating a certain way, that you're bad or dirty or unworthy and our food should be able to just eat our food is there should be no moral implications that are tied to it at all. And so with that [inaudible 00:25:22] the newest trend these days seems to be diets that say they aren't diets, but they're really a diet. And I'll use Noom as an example. I mean, their marketing is unbelievable. I tell you, they have probably some of the best marketers I've seen in diet culture and in the diet industry, but they're lying. They are very, very manipulative in the way that they explain their program in their ads that I've seen. And it's hard because people are truly believing that they're paying for something that isn't a diet.

When it in fact is. The biggest thing is if a company or a person is saying I'm going to help you learn to love yourself and appreciate your body and all of this, but then simultaneously they're trying to sell you something that's supposed to help you lose weight or change your body, that is not intuitive eating. That is not about really honoring your body. You should not have to try to change your body in order to care for it and to respect it. And so I think that is the biggest thing that I see, and that is people preaching intuitive eating and certain principles of intuitive eating, but not teaching it in the way that it was intended. And that is it's certainly not intended for weight loss purposes, but rather taking care of yourself through learning to trust your body again.

Alyssa Scolari [26:57]:

Yes. Yes. A thousand percent I want to stand up and scream because I just, I love it. And you're right. Noom is one of those like diets in disguise. It's like, and I think they actually market themselves as like a non-diet. Right? Don't they market themselves as being like not a diet?

Tianna Smith [27:25]:

Yeah. They very much say that they [inaudible 00:27:29] intuitive eating and they're [inaudible 00:27:34] lot of trouble for using the phrase intuitive eating in a way that is illegal. And so, yeah, there's unfortunately a lot of people trying to use intuitive eating as a marketing tool, but they're also simultaneously saying, do our program or work with me so that you can lose weight. It's very unethical.

Alyssa Scolari [27:58]:

It's extremely unethical. And it's just so harmful. It is so, so harmful.

Tianna Smith [28:04]:

Yep.

Alyssa Scolari [28:08]:

Now your Food Freedom University course, is that something that's like always running? Is that an ongoing?

Tianna Smith [28:17]:

So it is going to be open for enrollment three times this year. So right now, actually my cart is open until January 20th. The course will start on January 25th and then I will launch again most likely in April. So it's something where, yeah, like I said, it's an eight week program and I really do try to give it my all, and that's why it's not running all the time. I want to have groups that people kind of go through the program so that you're really making strong connections with people that are learning the same things as you at the same time.

Alyssa Scolari [28:56]:

Yes. Okay. And in terms of your individual services that you offer, are you taking on new clients right now?

Tianna Smith [29:09]:

So actually I am only taking one-on-one clients who are also enrolled in Food Freedom University. And the reason for that is I want to make sure that those people that are in Food Freedom University are having all of my undivided attention. So the only new clients that I'm taking individually are people who have diagnosed eating disorders. So if somebody with a diagnosed eating disorder that's struggling actively with their eating disorder, really do need that one-on-one attention support from me. But I also recognize that there may be some people inside Food Freedom University that just want a little bit more, maybe they want to process somethings in more of a nutrition counseling type of way. So yeah, I very much prioritize FFU students.

Alyssa Scolari [29:59]:

Okay. And if people wanted to enroll in the Food Freedom University course, is that, do you only accept people in your area? Or are you able to work with people pretty much all over the country? Cause I assume everything is tele-health now. Right?

Tianna Smith [30:23]:

Yes. So yeah, I'm actually able to work with people worldwide because through Food Freedom University, I'm not providing medical nutrition therapy. And so because of that, I'm able to do more health coaching in helping people learn to trust their body and to work through some of these body image struggles that they may have. And so if somebody has a medical diagnosis, that is something that would require me to work with them one-on-one and in those instances it would very much depend on what state they live in. So there's a handful of states that do not require what's called licensure for dieticians. And so in those states I could do tele-health with people if they had let's say diabetes, or heart disease, PCOS, something like that. So yeah, with Food Freedom University though, it's really great because it's more on a health coaching basis. And so I can see people from anywhere.

Alyssa Scolari [31:24]:

That's awesome. And people can go right to your website, which is Realistic Roots Nutrition.

Tianna Smith [31:32]:

Yes. So it's RealisticRootsNutrition.com. And if you're interested in Food Freedom University, there is a tab at the top that says Food Freedom University that you can click on. And it will take you to my page that talks all about the program. You can enroll there. You can also email me, if you have questions. I'm also very, very active on my Instagram.

Alyssa Scolari [31:54]:

Yes. Let's talk about your Instagram because, so that is so important. One of the first things that I tell people when they come to me for eating disorders is like, who are you following on social media? Do they make you feel bad about yourself? Okay. Let's take out your phone unfollow, unfollow, unfollow, but your Instagram is fantastic. So tell people about your Instagram.

Tianna Smith [32:21]:

Yeah. So with my Instagram, I am very active on there. I really try to be a support to anybody who's struggling with eating disorders, disordered eating, anybody that wants to learn more about intuitive eating. It's a place where I want people to feel really safe talking about their struggles with food and their bodies. And so oftentimes too, I'll kind of expose a diet culture and some of the ways that they make us feel awful about ourselves. And so I try to really make it a space where it's both educational and therapeutic and uplifting and non triggering. So, yeah, I agree with what you just said though, too, with unfollowing people that are triggering. I always like to refer to it as like taking out the body garbage. So these accounts that make you feel bad about your body. We don't need that. It's hard enough working through body image issues, let alone scrolling and seeing things that are really triggering. So yeah.

Alyssa Scolari [33:27]:

And your Instagram handle is, Dietician Tianna. Right?

Tianna Smith [33:30]:

Yes. It's Dietitian.Tianna. A lot of people forget that dot.

Alyssa Scolari [33:36]:

Okay. Dietician.Tanna. Okay.

Tianna Smith [33:40]:

Yep.

Alyssa Scolari [33:40]:

And I will tag you when we post the episode and to the listeners out there, obviously as always, you know, that I will put the RealisticRootNutrition.com website in the show notes as well as the Facebook page so you can feel free to go check her out and obviously follow her on Instagram because her stuff is amazing. And I love it. And it's such a breath of fresh air because I was the queen of dieting. Every diet, you name it like Weight Watchers, keto, Jillian Michaels detox, like I [crosstalk 00:34:21].

Tianna Smith [34:20]:

... Jillian Michaels.

Alyssa Scolari [34:23]:

Jillian Michaels was my girl for a while when I was so deep in my eating disorder. And now I look back and I'm like, Jillian? Unfollow. No offense, Jill.

Tianna Smith [34:37]:

Yeah.

Alyssa Scolari [34:40]:

No hard feelings, Jill, but your lifestyle is just not for me. It's just, it's been one of the most freeing things ever. And it's all because of people like you. So truly like thank you so much for what you do and for being, for going against the grain, because in some ways it is easier to fall into diet culture and you are one of the people that help all bodies to feel accepted and worthy. So thank you for what you do. I'm also channeling some major vitamin D vibes. So for the listeners out there, Tianna's in California and I'm over here in Jersey, where it's dark and freezing, and I see all the sunshine and it looks so nice over there.

Tianna Smith [35:36]:

Yeah. We are a little bit spoiled. I'm not going to lie.

Alyssa Scolari [35:40]:

So jealous. Well, thank you so much for coming on the show and for taking the time out to talk about all the amazing things you do.

Tianna Smith [35:51]:

You're so welcome. I really feel like it's such a fulfilling career and area to work in. And, yeah, I mean, I definitely do get the trolls that think that I am preaching things that aren't quote unquote healthy.

Alyssa Scolari [36:06]:

Yes.

Tianna Smith [36:07]:

But I think there's just a lot of learning that needs to be done. And so I try to not take offense to those people that are sometimes kind of hard on me and the things that I put out there on social media. But I just have to remind myself that we live in a very sick culture that's very diet focused and I'm very fat phobic. And so it comes with the territory, but I always tell my followers that are with me throughout at all, that I'm not going anywhere that this is sometimes an uphill battle to fight, but it's definitely worth it. So I'm very grateful for this career path I've chosen.

Alyssa Scolari [36:49]:

It's such an uphill battle. It's, but you know, you're actively saving lives because to spend your whole life fighting against, as you've called it your biological blueprint, to me is truly like the ultimate form of hell to be in. It really is. I feel more alive now than I ever have in my whole life by being able to just eat freely.

Tianna Smith [37:16]:

I'm so, so glad that you've been able to experience that for yourself because, I'll be honest. I feel like it's kind of rare today. And so for me to have just recently met you and to hear that you already have gone through this amazing intuitive eating journey just brings a lot of joy to me. It just makes me so happy. So congratulations on being able to work through that yourself because it's hard work for sure.

Alyssa Scolari [37:48]:

Thanks. It's such hard work, but you know, to me what's harder was just living in that cycle of the number on the scale never being low enough. It's just never good enough. So I'm like, it's all about surrendering and just letting your body do its thing.

Tianna Smith [38:08]:

Yeah. Absolutely. Gosh, we are so on the same wave link.

Alyssa Scolari [38:12]:

I know.

Tianna Smith [38:14]:

Like I tell my clients that all the time, so...

Alyssa Scolari [38:18]:

Let go and let your body be. Thanks for listening everyone. For more information about today's episode and to sign up for the Light after Trauma newsletter, head over to my website AlyssaScolari.com. The really great thing about being a part of newsletter is that not only do you get weekly updates on new podcast episodes and blog posts, but you also get access to the private Facebook community as well as access to all sorts of insider tips, resources, and infographs that supplement what we talk about on the show. You also can connect with me and other trauma warriors. I'm super active on the Facebook community. And I look forward to talking with you.

Toni Uzzalino opens about her recovery after the traumatic loss of her husband while raising two young children. Toni has taken her immense pain and grief and has transformed it into a life spent helping others.

To learn more about Toni and her work, please visit https://www.toniuzzalinolpc.com

Check out the Light After Trauma website for transcripts, other episodes, Alyssa's guest appearances, and more at: www.lightaftertrauma.com

Want to get more great content and interact with the show? Check us out on Instagram: @lightaftertrauma

We need your help! We want to continue to make great content that can help countless trauma warriors on their journey to recovery. So, please help us in supporting the podcast by becoming a recurring patron of the show via Patreon. Every bit helps!

Transcript:

Alyssa Scolari [00:23]:

Hey everybody. Happy Tuesday. Welcome to episode 24 of the Light After Trauma podcast. I am your host, Alyssa Scolari, and this is the first episode that we are recording in 2021. It'll be the second episode to launch. So, today is Wednesday, January 6th when we're recording, but it's going to be launching on Tuesday, January... What the heck is next Tuesday? The 12th? I think it's the 12th. Anyway, regardless, I have with me here today, a good friend. We're going to be talking about some hard stuff; talking about grief today with my dear friend, Tony Uzzalino. That's the Italian way of saying it. Am I right?

Tony Uzzalino [01:10]:

Uzzalino.

Alyssa Scolari [01:13]:

Isn't that Americanized?

Tony Uzzalino [01:14]:

Yeah. It's actually a misspelling. There's very few people with that spelled that way.

Alyssa Scolari [01:22]:

Really? How's it usually spelled?

Tony Uzzalino [01:26]:

Yes. And most people that I've met with the last name, it was my husband's, and they were related to him.

Alyssa Scolari [01:30]:

Well, okay. I love your last name because it just screams Italian, and I'm obsessed. And obviously, as I said that to all the listeners out there, I did the Italian hand motion. So, you've got two Italians coming at you today, and hopefully, we love to talk with our hands, so we're going to try not to smack things around. I know I'm definitely guilty of smacking the table in a fit of passion when we were talking about this stuff. So, welcome, Tony. How are you? Thank you so much for coming on the show today.

Tony Uzzalino [02:06]:

Thank you. I'm thrilled to be here.

Alyssa Scolari [02:09]:

I am so stoked to have you. So, can you tell the listeners a little bit about what you do?

Tony Uzzalino [02:18]:

Sure. Do you want me to go into history, or just what I do right now?

Alyssa Scolari [02:23]:

Well, let's start off on, I guess, to be more specific, because, one of the things that is so interesting about your story, is you are in the field of mental health, you are an LPC, so you're a therapist, but you did not start out that way. So, take us back to what your career was versus what it is now, because, you did a total 180.

Tony Uzzalino [02:47]:

Absolutely. I was an accountant working in financial services, and then a trauma had affected my family, which caused my whole life to be in an uproar. Took me a couple of years to settle down until I found a therapist to help one of my family members. It was an art therapist. One day, I was looking at something, she was explaining something to me, and I said, "I can do this." And she said, "You should. You'd be great at it." So, I decided to go back to school at 35. And I had to get my prerequisites for grad school, but I wound up going to Caldwell and getting a master's degree in counseling psychology, with a specialization in art therapy.

Alyssa Scolari [03:40]:

Specialization... I actually didn't even know that. So, you have a specialization in art therapy.

Tony Uzzalino [03:45]:

Yes, but my degree is in counseling psychology, a new degree to the school, actually, it's the only one in New Jersey that is accredited, and I was there while they were getting accredited. So, it was a little challenging to get my LPC. Actually, I got denied on my LAC. They said I needed a counseling course. The whole degree was in counseling. But I just went with it, and I said, "Let me just accumulate my hours." And when I did that, I started... A friend of mine, kind of... "I got my LPC." And I tried it, and I had to question one thing, but it was such a little thing. And all of a sudden, they said, "Congratulations." So, I wound up getting it a little bit later than I thought, but that was okay.

Alyssa Scolari [04:32]:

Yeah. It can be such a pain in the butt to go from the LAC, which to the listeners out there, the LAC is like your provisional license where you have to be under supervision and you can't practice on your own, and you have to get some... right now, it's like 4,500 hours under a supervisor that has to be approved by the board. It's a nightmare. Not that it's deterring anybody from going into the field, because, it's a blessing to be in this field, but yeah, it's such a pain in the ass, quite frankly. Now, going back to... You said that there was this trauma in your life that shifted, ultimately, catapulted you into a new career. What had happened?

Tony Uzzalino [05:18]:

It was June, I guess it started more February. I was married with two little kids, three and seven. My husband's father had died pretty suddenly. They were very, very close. We, actually, all were very close. And that was the first event. It shook us up, and the next couple of months were a blur, and then my husband went to sleep one night and he didn't wake up. He was 36.

Alyssa Scolari [05:49]:

So young.

Tony Uzzalino [05:51]:

Yeah. And I woke up to see that he hadn't. And that was the start of the events that led to me going back to school.

Alyssa Scolari [06:04]:

Oh my gosh. And you were how old at this time? So you had to be in your 30s?

Tony Uzzalino [06:11]:

Yes. I was 31.

Alyssa Scolari [06:13]:

At 31 years old, you had been married for how many years?

Tony Uzzalino [06:17]:

Nine and a half. It was June 25th of 1999. And my birthday was in July.

Alyssa Scolari [06:32]:

And he did not wake up.

Tony Uzzalino [06:35]:

No.

Alyssa Scolari [06:36]:

And before that, so his father had passed.

Tony Uzzalino [06:41]:

Yes.

Alyssa Scolari [06:42]:

And it sounds like... Was that a series of events that ultimately led to your husband's passing?

Tony Uzzalino [06:51]:

We believe so. And of course, thinking back, hindsight, it's quite amazing, he struggled with his health, which was similar to his dad. And he seemed to always be sick with one thing or another; from an injury when he was younger, to infections that lasted months at a time. Being on workmen's comp and then getting a job. So, it was always pretty much a challenge, but he also had high blood pressure, and he put on quite a bit of weight suddenly, with his dad's passing. And I think that contributed greatly to the events that led up to his death.

Alyssa Scolari [07:36]:

Do you attribute the sudden onset of waking to just the unprocessed feelings around his father's passing?

Tony Uzzalino [07:47]:

Yeah. I think he had some unresolved stuff that he needed to deal with, and I believed in... I don't even know how to put this into words. I believed that you are able to... I don't know how to put this into words.

Alyssa Scolari [08:06]:

What are you trying to say?

Tony Uzzalino [08:07]:

I feel like because he had some guilt, some unresolved feelings, that it quanted him, so to speak. And I think that led and caused depression in the combination.

Alyssa Scolari [08:25]:

I'm a firm believer; there's such a strong mind-body connection, and it goes back to... And I think you had read this book. I don't know if you finished it, but Bessel van der Kolk's, The Body Keeps the Score. So, is that similar to what you're trying to say, where you feel like he took all the feelings and just stored them? Because if you don't do anything with them, they sit in your body, and that leads to health complications, that leads to weight gain, it leads to a whole host of issues which can be fatal.

Tony Uzzalino [08:57]:

Yes. And I think it was so many years, after the fact, looking back, I think when I first met him, he was actually related to my cousin's husband. So, I met his family before I met him because he was always away at school. But thinking back, he had a loss of a sibling when he was young. And I really think that some of it even goes back as far as that.

Alyssa Scolari [09:25]:

Absolutely. And back then, things were less discussed. Especially being a man, it was not okay to talk about feelings.

Tony Uzzalino [09:39]:

And an Italian man.

Alyssa Scolari [09:41]:

Absolutely. That's like the nail in the coffin. An Italian man, feelings? mm-mm [negative]. We don't talk about that. We provide for the family, and that's it.

Tony Uzzalino [09:52]:

Absolutely.

Alyssa Scolari [09:53]:

That's so tough. And you, I don't know if you said this while we were recording, but this is one thing I do know; is that you have children with him, so how old were your kids when your husband passed?

Tony Uzzalino [10:05]:

Three and a half, and seven and a half. One was with me that night, and one wasn't, which was some of the trauma piece of it. It was very complex because of that.

Alyssa Scolari [10:20]:

Could you say a little bit more about that? You don't have to if you don't want to. Feel free to tell me no.

Tony Uzzalino [10:25]:

Well, one wasn't there, and I think that there were some feelings about not being there to help, and the other one was there but very young, and internalized the responsibility of his dad to her. She blamed herself.

Alyssa Scolari [10:42]:

Yeah. As kids do.

Tony Uzzalino [10:44]:

It was until years and years and years later, did we realize that. But thankfully, through art therapy and processing things, took a little bit of a different route in life, but both are successful adults. Now, they are 25 and 29, and both are doing really good.

Alyssa Scolari [11:07]:

Wow. It makes so much sense what you say about how your kids internalized it and processed it in different ways. You had your one child who was there, and was more than likely thinking, "What could I have done, or what did I do that caused this to happen?" And then you have the child who wasn't there, who jumps right to, "Well, it's because I wasn't there. If I was there, this wouldn't have happened." And that can be so hard, so difficult. So, you are 31 years old, you've got two small children, your husband passes away, you are now a grieving widow, how are you still standing? What were those years like for you?

Tony Uzzalino [11:55]:

Extremely challenging.

Alyssa Scolari [11:57]:

Oh my god. I can't even imagine.

Tony Uzzalino [11:58]:

Yeah. Some days, I look back, and it seems like yesterday. And then some days, it seems like a hundred years ago. There were total ups and downs. I did have an education and a job, and it's even difficult to put into words. It definitely was the hardest thing I've ever had to do. That is for definite sure.

Alyssa Scolari [12:25]:

So, you ended up going back to work to be an accountant after your husband passed.

Tony Uzzalino [12:34]:

No. I really was an accountant.

Alyssa Scolari [12:37]:

Right. But you ended up going back to work as an accountant.

Tony Uzzalino [12:42]:

Yes. I worked for... like a money manager, I was in marketing, it was a small firm. And then, few years later, I was laid off because they were taking over, and they were moving back into the city, and by now, I just definitely could not do; be in the city with the kids here, especially with going... I was always on the go, and I just couldn't do it. So, I wound up taking some time off, and then September 11th happened. So, the unemployment extended and helped during the difficult time.

Alyssa Scolari [13:17]:

Wow. And as I mentioned, that's a whole other trauma in itself, especially because you are close to New York. So, that's a whole another trauma. Looking back at that time, during those years, how did you manage, or are there even words to describe how you manage to put one foot in front of the other, as somebody who's grieving the loss of her husbands, and trying to also be there for your kids?

Tony Uzzalino [13:53]:

I can't put it quite into words, but there are some friends I lost because of the death, believe it or not. Some that I thought really would be there for me, and they weren't, and that's okay. And then I remember sitting at the repass lunch, and one woman was saying how she lost all of her friends when she lost her husband because now, she was the single one, kind of maybe going after their husbands. And I remember telling my sitter, "Watch the kids," and she started laughing hysterical, because she's like, "Wait a second. Are you saying that you think..." And she gave their names, and then I'm like, "Yeah. You're right. That's so silly." But my husband had really good friends, and they've helped me throughout the years. And we're not too close now, but I know if I needed something, they'd be there.

Alyssa Scolari [14:47]:

Yeah. They'd be there in a heartbeat. It's horrific, and yet, not surprising to me that there are, of course, people out there who, because you're the single one, "We're going to exclude her because she's going to come and steal our husbands or be a homewrecker." Oh my god.

Tony Uzzalino [15:12]:

It's totally idiotic.

Alyssa Scolari [15:14]:

It's hysterical in the most disturbing way possible. What is wrong with people?

Tony Uzzalino [15:23]:

But it's amazing how my life changed so much. We were thinking about moving anyway. He had an extremely stressful job, my husband, because he worked with his father. So, when I went to work to keep my mind busy, he went to work and everybody would come up to him and say, "I'm sorry about your dad." So, he relieved it over and over. And I was able, because on my birthday, which was in July, I got a call from the office, and they called already to say happy birthday, and then they called me and we had gotten into this program that we were trying to get in for a few years. And I realized when I went there, that was the first time I didn't have the thought that I was a widow. And it was only two, three weeks later. And that's when I realized I needed to go back to work and get back to a sense of normal, whatever the normal will be.

Alyssa Scolari [16:14]:

And you said that was only two to three weeks after you had lost your husband.

Tony Uzzalino [16:19]:

Yes.

Alyssa Scolari [16:19]:

Wow.

Tony Uzzalino [16:22]:

Yeah. So, my boss was really cool. He's like, "You do what you got to do, whatever you need to do." And that was very helpful. And I don't really remember too much about when I went back to work, I know the years were extremely difficult. I was constantly on the go, from one thing or another.

Alyssa Scolari [16:45]:

Trying to keep busy.

Tony Uzzalino [16:48]:

Yeah. Well, did a full-time job, house, and kids, their schedules, you didn't have that other partner to pick up some of the slack, and he did. He had picked them up from the sitters and from school and things like that. So, I lost that, but I met a bunch of moms at my son's school, and they said, "Listen, I know you husband used to do this, we're going to do this for you." And they picked up the same schedule, almost for a while, and it was great.

Alyssa Scolari [17:23]:

How nice is that?

Tony Uzzalino [17:23]:

They were great. It's like I said, there's people that touched me, that I was surprised, and then other people that were disappointing, that they didn't.

Alyssa Scolari [17:31]:

People always say that when it comes to grief and loss. I had a friend... This is not similar in any way, shape, or form, but I have a childhood friend who just recently lost her father, and she said the same thing. I went to the viewing, it was new year's day, and she had said to me like, "Alyssa, you would be so surprised at the people who are there for you, that you don't expect to be, and then the people who you expect to be there for you, and just aren't." And part of me wonders if... because death and loss and grief is such a difficult subject to talk about, do you think it's because it hits too close to home for some people, and they are like, "I don't know what to say, so I'm just going to stay away." Not that that's an excuse because I think that's a bunch of bullshit, and it infuriates me, but I wonder if that's part of the reason.

Tony Uzzalino [18:39]:

Possibly. I know my husband was really close with people that he worked with because he always had a brotherly connection with some of them. And I remember, one, in particular, was on vacation when Peter died. And he drove up and he left his wife, who had vision problems. He left her there with the kids, and he said, "I got to run back." I'm like, "Thank you for coming. Really appreciate it because I don't know how I'm ever going to get over this." And that was like, "Whoa." And then another friend that he also worked with, I was shocked. We went on vacations together, and disappeared, and won't return my call, and then one day I got his wife, and he got on the phone and he says, "When I talk to you when I see you, I see Pete, and I can't do it."

Alyssa Scolari [19:29]:

Yeah. Thanks.

Tony Uzzalino [19:30]:

Yeah. Thanks. But I also respect people to be whoever they need to be. There's nothing I can do. I was like, "Okay." And the support that I've gotten in the communities, we were looking to move anyway, I just switched where we were looking. I decided to move where his brother and sister both live in, a town that had good schools, and I wound up moving to Redwood, which was a great move. I wanted the kids to be near their cousins. So, he wound up being in school with them, different grades, but it was a good opportunity, but the support that I received in the community, the football coaches, the wrestling coaches, they became like my family. And I've gone to dinner with two couples, they would round table so I didn't feel funny.

Alyssa Scolari [20:31]:

Yes.

Tony Uzzalino [20:32]:

You know what I mean? And things like that. So, I had that, but what was really hard was when he graduated high school. It ended. So, it was difficult. And I guess I didn't think that far in advance.

Alyssa Scolari [20:46]:

No, of course not. But right. He graduates high school, and it's like, "Oh where's that sense of community that I felt like I was so much a part of?"

Tony Uzzalino [20:56]:

Yeah. Because my daughter was on a different track, so the community was with his sporting events and activities, more so than my daughter's. So, it was very different, but we made it through. We wound up moving again to lessen the... Because my son was going to be away, we moved to a town that had townhouses. So, we moved, kind of a way to downsize. And that was a great move also. So, life became a little bit simpler.

Alyssa Scolari [21:30]:

And I think what you're talking about also speaks to the fact that grief is so cyclical. It's not, at all, a... So, three weeks after your husband passed, you're like it hits you for the first time like, "Oh I am so much more than just a widow. It's time for me to go back to work." But then, here we are all these years later, your son graduates high school, and that sense of community is taken out from under your feet, and it's like, "Boom. There's that sense of loss that I feel." So, it's not something that goes away. It's not something to get over. Would you agree with that?

Tony Uzzalino [22:22]:

Absolutely. I think it becomes part of you and you just move forward in a different way. I remember reading something when he died. It's like, "Life is changed. It's not ended." It becomes a different... It's almost like it reworks itself and it looks different. And at times, much more challenging, and at times, okay. I remember walking with a friend of mine from town, and she was talking about her husband never being around, he's always working, and then she says, "Oh my God. You must hate me." And I went, "Why?" Because I was thinking. And she's like, "You must hate me. You never have this problem, and here I am bitching that he is working too much when he is home at night, and you're alone." And I said, "No. I just didn't know what to say." Because I didn't ever go through that. My husband was working or home, and that was it. So, I also don't want people to not be able to talk to me about things that are bothering them. A relationship is two ways. I don't want people to like... I have to censor the things they discuss with me.

Alyssa Scolari [23:42]:

And that's what makes you such a good therapist. Was there a point in your life where you didn't feel that way? Where you were like, "Nope. Don't talk to me about your husband, don't talk to me about what's going on in your life. My world is falling apart," or did you never really feel that way?

Tony Uzzalino [24:06]:

Right after he died, a couple months later, I had put the kids into a treatment program at [inaudible 00:24:14] therapy program. And in the beginning, people said, "Oh you have to go grief groups." So, I would go, and I remember my friend dragged me there, and I went there, and there's people at my table that were grieving their losses of their 90-year-old mothers. And I just was like, "Hello. Nothing in common here." And although I was young and younger than most people I met, the mothers who also lost husbands, were very, very helpful to me, because those people, they were able to help me. Some were losses that were a little bit longer in time, so they went through it, and were able to help me, and we helped each other. We actually became support systems for each other, whether it being picking the kids up from school, or they filled a little bit of a void that was there.

And I really needed that for a long time, and then I think I eased into, "I don't want to be defined as a widow." I had to just recreate my life. And my life looks so different. I know when I talk about my story, and I tell people I'm a therapist, I said that, "You can do this," I felt like... You know when the pictures come together and you step back and you see this big picture, it was like my life. And I just said, "This is what God wants me to do." I'm destined to do this. And it was challenging because it was hard on my family to be in school. Then I wasn't working some of the time, and then I was working, but our family, still, was struggling. So, when I went to grad school, I learned so much about my childhood, my family, why I do certain things, why I am who I am, and that was pretty helpful because even now, I don't think I could've been where I am today without that.

Alyssa Scolari [26:15]:

Yes. Because you have to understand to be able to help yourself and help others.

Tony Uzzalino [26:23]:

Yeah. And I tell people all the time when I talk about therapy, and I say, "I think everybody needs therapy."

Alyssa Scolari [26:29]:

Everybody.

Tony Uzzalino [26:30]:

Life is challenging. And to have somebody who is only... One time, I said life is hard, and they're like, "It's not hard, it's what you make of it." And I'm like, "It's challenging."

Alyssa Scolari [26:41]:

Bullshit. Life is hard.

Tony Uzzalino [26:42]:

Look at the world we live in. Right now, it's incredible. And I really think everybody should talk about that often because, I go weekly; the best hour of my life.

Alyssa Scolari [26:55]:

It's the best. It's absolutely the best. I can't wait to see my therapist tomorrow.

Tony Uzzalino [27:02]:

Yeah. My therapist was sick yesterday, so she had to reschedule. So, I'm waiting to hear from her, but she is the best. And it's like, sometimes, she'll say something, she goes, "Wait. What happens if your client would say that to you?"

Alyssa Scolari [27:18]:

I hate that question.

Tony Uzzalino [27:19]:

Yeah. And I'm like... but it makes sense. It's like she will help me see the side of the... sitting in the chair and being the other person. So, my life wasn't quite what I thought it would be then because it was the kids. I thought I would work with kids when I graduated, but my first job was in a rehab. Working at a mommy-and-me rehab in Patterson. And I loved it. Just because you have an addiction, just because you have a mental health problem, doesn't mean you can not be a good parent. And I feel extremely strong about that, and even throughout all these years, I still come back to that same thing.

And I have a private practice now, to start and to go on my own with it, but one thing that helped me through grad school was doing supervised parenting in Bergen County, and that is, especially since the pandemic hit, keeping me very, very busy. It's like I go back to the same thing. It's like these parents need someone there for them at this time because everybody is working to not need someone there, but I feel like it's a way to help parents, like some help I received, from all my grief, from friends and professional, and all that.

Alyssa Scolari [28:41]:

Yeah. I was just thinking, as you're telling what you do and where your career is at now, because you're in a process of building up your own private practice and you do the supervised parenting time, and look at you, how you have taken... You are what this podcast is all about; which is, look at how you have taken the pain. And pain isn't even a good word because there are no words to describe the hurt that you've endured. No words for it. And look at how you have taken that, and you are now using it to help others. Like supervised parenting time, look at that. You have become what you needed back then. I hope you are so proud of yourself.

Tony Uzzalino [29:37]:

Absolutely.

Alyssa Scolari [29:39]:

You're like, "I try." Work in progress. Okay. Well, I'm going to be proud because it's just amazing. And one of the things... and this has stuck with me because... Just so the listeners out there know, Tony and I had talked a little bit about this before recording, when we were just prepping for this; you had offered a piece of advice to people out there who have lost a spouse.

Tony Uzzalino [30:15]:

Yes.

Alyssa Scolari [30:17]:

And it hit me right in the gut. And I was wondering if you'd be able to share.

Tony Uzzalino [30:26]:

The best thing, I don't know if someone told me it, I wish I remembered, or I just realized it; when you lose a spouse... Most people sleep on the same side of the bed all the time. The majority of people. But to wake up and then look to see an empty space every time you open up your eyes to wake up in the morning... so, you switch sides because if you're sleeping on their side, it's a different view than you ordinarily would have. So, it's not your first thought. It's probably second thought, but it's not your first thought, and that was really helpful to me. And I suggest that to everyone that I know. That's my advice.

Another thing which was really hard was the holidays. That first holiday or second holiday, because I had to go through with kids that are kids, and they needed Santa Clause, but I couldn't do the tree thing. And thank God I have my friend that I work with, I love. She brought trees for each of my kids, with decorations, and they each decorated their own tree because we still had to go on for them. And that's something people have also used when I had said that, that they've used with... because the kids still need that, but I can't do it. I couldn't do it, so she did it for me. I'm definitely [inaudible 00:31:54].

Alyssa Scolari [31:54]:

Yeah. You allowed someone to come in and keep the magic alive for your kids, at a time when you're in so much pain, you just don't have the space for it, so you were able to take care of yourself and honor yourself, while also taking care of your kids.

Tony Uzzalino [32:10]:

Yeah. And then I remember also, I had a little bit more time in my hands, so I was teaching CCD, and one of my... she's actually my realtor, she took me, made me go out Christmas shopping for my kids. I really struggled that first Christmas. And so she was going, "What about this?" My little Jewish friend who is picking Christmas presents for my kids, but I was able to do it. And then I remember going into a religious store because I needed something for the CCD class, and I saw something on the wall, and it was a poem on the face of Jesus.

And it talked about; very similar to footprints in the sand, that, "When you needed me, I carried you." This was more like the person got into heaven and said, "Listen; when I needed I pray to you, and you didn't come to me, you didn't feed me when I was hungry." And then he said, "But I gave you people. Why didn't you recognize that it was from me." And that was a turning point of my depression. And I was like, "You know what? It's going to be okay." And there was a couple of other instances similar to that, but I get it. It's not always what you think it's going to be, but it's what you need. And everybody has a purpose in this lifetime. And I feel like helping people is my purpose.

Alyssa Scolari [33:48]:

Yeah. And you are so good at it. One of the good things that has come out of this pandemic is; I was able to meet Tony through a... what do you call it? Like a peer supervision group, basically.

Tony Uzzalino [34:08]:

That's exactly what I call it. I go, "My supervision is Sunday morning from 9 to 10, and I'm not doing anything during that time. No matter where I am, I'm on vacation, I'm sitting..." It's because it's really helpful to me because, in my community, we don't really have that. I have some friends that are therapists that I can reach out to, but everybody's so busy that this is a set time, and everybody has their own thing to bring to the table. And I've always focused on the trauma piece of it, and then that's your thing. So, I feel like it's a way... So, we're always in contact with each other.

Alyssa Scolari [34:50]:

Even if we just hop on, on Sunday mornings and talk about the weather, I am always learning from all of you. It's been such a blessing.

Tony Uzzalino [35:00]:

Absolutely. I tell everybody that. I said, "That's one of the good things." Because I would have never met you guys. We're all over the state.

Alyssa Scolari [35:09]:

Never. You and I live hours from each other, I'm pretty sure. So, we would have never met if it hadn't been for COVID. So, now, your practice, are you currently accepting new clients?

Tony Uzzalino [35:22]:

Absolutely. I mean, of course, we're still virtual, and I think that'll be for a while.

Alyssa Scolari [35:29]:

Yeah. It's going to be for a good while, I would say.

Tony Uzzalino [35:34]:

Especially that I see kids, with play... I follow and help... if anybody in the country is in the office, and just is a challenge to keep everything clean, so I'm like, it's going to be virtual for a while.

Alyssa Scolari [35:50]:

Yeah. And you work with children and adults?

Tony Uzzalino [35:54]:

Yes. I work with children, adults, families, parents. I do a lot of parent coaching and assistance, because it is hard, especially with children with mental health issues, or sometimes, it's the parents that have the mental health issues, and the kids are experienced as a result of that. And I can definitely relate to that.

Alyssa Scolari [36:20]:

And is there a specific area that you prefer to work in? Are you particularly passionate about children with the separation anxiety or grief, trauma?

Tony Uzzalino [36:36]:

Because I was working in a rehab, I got licensed in addiction. So, besides the mental health and addiction and art therapy, I study and I'm very passionate about play therapy, and going for my certification. But I also think that families, no matter what the challenges are, some of them, if you take, the feelings are the same, and treating them is very similar. So, the trauma is always the underline passion because I feel like that's what led me.

Alyssa Scolari [37:12]:

Typically at the root. Your trauma is what led you to the spot to be able to help so many others.

Tony Uzzalino [37:21]:

Yeah. And when I was doing in-home work with a lot of the agencies, and I like the very young kids. So many people don't work with them, but I enjoy the four-year-olds or five-year-olds.

Alyssa Scolari [37:36]:

That's amazing. And if people want to contact you, can they just go right to your website?

Tony Uzzalino [37:42]:

Absolutely. It's toniuzzalinolpc.com. There's a lot of information out there about parenting and parenting supervision and addiction.

Alyssa Scolari [37:55]:

And I will link that in the show notes and on the private Facebook group for everybody. And then I think the last question I want to ask you is a book recommendation. Is there any kind of book? And if you're like, "I have no idea," it's totally fine.

Tony Uzzalino [38:17]:

It might be out there, but the one book that I read that really helped me, was James Van Praagh. His book, which was He's a Psychic.

Alyssa Scolari [38:29]:

It sounds a little bit familiar to me.

Tony Uzzalino [38:29]:

I know it sounds a little bit out there. And I can't think of which particular book, but there were stories of different people he'd met over different years, and different reading he did. So, there has to be a life after this. I mean, come on, this can't be it. I truly believe there is. It's controversial, what it is, because no one really knows. But I have to believe that it's a better world than this. So, I remember reading a story about a girl who's very close to her grandmother, and her grandmother died, and in the reading, she talked about a footstool that was moved a certain way. And it had me thinking that; they're here, they are around, they are here when you need them, and I truly believe that. When I started dating serious, which was my daughter's idea, I met someone, and the first date we went on was strange because he was talking about his kids and the grief of ending his marriage when they were little and the struggles he had, and I just was like, "Wow. You get some of the things I've been through."

Alyssa Scolari [39:40]:

Right. He gets it to a certain extent.

Tony Uzzalino [39:42]:

Yeah. And I believed it was fate, almost, how I met him because his family knew my husband's family because they grew up in the same town. So, it was like he worked for one of my husband's cousins. So, I felt destined. And then he struggled during... We've been dating for years now, and he lost his son, and I felt like I was able to help him and help the family during his illness and then his death. And I felt I was able to, from my experience, help him and his family through it.

Alyssa Scolari [40:34]:

It's so fascinating to me how that works. When you hear stories like that, it is very hard to deny the fact that there is something much bigger than us, and there is something after this life.

Tony Uzzalino [40:49]:

Right. And you got to be aware of what it is.

Alyssa Scolari [40:49]:

Yeah. A hundred percent.

Tony Uzzalino [40:50]:

And just another thing, you were talking about recommendations if you have any thoughts. I remember, it's September 11th, and I was at a church meeting, and the priest came down, and he's like, "We're going to keep all these women that lost their husbands, be good to them, and extra this." And then someone else is like, "Well, I'm going to give them gift baskets for Christmas; hand cream and lotions." I said, "Listen, these people don't want lotions, they want someone to help them [inaudible 00:41:26], they want someone to help them run errands, not lotion." [inaudible 00:41:32].

Alyssa Scolari [41:33]:

Your hand lotion, not doing shit for me. I need hands on-

Tony Uzzalino [41:38]:

Honestly, it doesn't do shit for me on a regular day. It's just not my thing. It's not everybody's thing. And that's what I thought, and I remembered my friend who made me go. She literally made me go; picked me up and said, "Get in the car now. We're going."

Alyssa Scolari [42:00]:

I'm so thankful you had such a good support group because I think that that also is what helps you to just be where you're at right now, in terms of a place where you're able to now give back. Thank you for coming on here and being so vulnerable.

Tony Uzzalino [42:16]:

Thank you for having me.

Alyssa Scolari [42:16]:

I know it's really difficult to talk about, but I think that a lot of people will resonate with a lot of this stuff that you are saying. So, thank you. I truly appreciate it.

Tony Uzzalino [42:29]:

Yeah. And if anybody has any questions, feel free to contact me, you can do it through the website, I'd be happy to help anyone. I remember, a few years after my husband passed, the funeral director had a couple of mothers that lost their husbands suddenly, like accidents, had little kids, and they said, "I want to talk to somebody who has been through this, not somebody who's older and somebody who can..." So, I've connected and helped out by... feel like I was giving back. So I talked to the mothers, and I'm like "Listen, you may not think that you're ever going to get through this, but you have to." People go, "I would never be able to do this." You would because you would have to do it for your children and your family because there's enough loss. Now, you just got to go ahead, and here it is, I think it's going to be 22 years in June.

Alyssa Scolari [43:28]:

And look at you now. You're a rockstar.

Tony Uzzalino [43:35]:

You're sweet.

Alyssa Scolari [43:38]:

Thanks for listening, everyone. For more information about today's episode, and to sign up for the Light After Trauma newsletter, head over to my website at alyssascolari.com. The really great thing about being a part of this newsletter is that, not only do you get weekly updates on new podcast episodes and blog posts, but you also get access to the private Facebook community, as well as access to all sorts of insider tips, resources, and infographs that supplement what we talk about on the show. You also can connect with me and other trauma warriors. I'm super active on the Facebook community, and I look forward to talking with you.

Alyssa is kicking off the new year with Jess Frank, the program director of Yoga Behind Bars. YBB is a nonprofit organization aimed at providing trauma-informed yoga and meditation classes to help transform and heal those who are incarcerated.

Find out more about YBB here: https://yogabehindbars.org

Check out the Light After Trauma website for transcripts, other episodes, Alyssa's guest appearances, and more at: www.lightaftertrauma.com

Want to get more great content and interact with the show? Check us out on Instagram: @lightaftertrauma

We need your help! We want to continue to make great content that can help countless trauma warriors on their journey to recovery. So, please help us in supporting the podcast by becoming a recurring patron of the show via Patreon. Every bit helps!

Transcript:

Alyssa Scolari [00:21]:

Hey, y'all. What's up? Happy New Year. It's 2021. This is the first episode of the new year. I am pumped for all of the great stuff that I have coming your way this year. This week's episode is with Jess Frank who is the Program Director of the Yoga Behind Bars program, which is a nonprofit organization, and their mission is to provide trauma-informed yoga and meditation services for people who have been incarcerated in order to promote rehabilitation, personal transformation, and a more just society for all.

So, this has been a really interesting episode to record. I learned a lot about Yoga Behind Bars, the transformative powers that trauma-informed yoga can have, and I'm recording this intro actually after the episode was already recorded. So, I recorded it with Jess in December of 2020, and this is the first episode to launch for 2021. So, I hope that you enjoy it. I hope that it provides a lot of education out there. I personally have found yoga to be so healing and so transformative in my personal life, and knowing that there is a program out there like this that is working to help transform the lives of people who are incarcerated is really heartwarming and a great way to kick off 2021, so enjoy.

Would you be able to just talk a little bit about the concept and the creation of Yoga Behind Bars?

Jess Frank [02:11]:

Sure. So, Yoga Behind Bars started a little before 2008. We became a nonprofit in 2008 officially, but a few years before that, it was started by one woman named Shaina Traisman, who kind of fell into it a little bit. She was a yoga teacher, and she met someone who had been incarcerated, and they talked about how much yoga helped them post-incarceration and that they encourage her to teach in a jail setting. So, she ended up contacting the King County Jail here in Seattle, and next thing, there was one yoga class that she was teaching, and then it kind of just slowly grew from there and expanded to other facilities, more people coming on board to teach. Really, since then, it has just continued to grow although has stabilized in terms of the reach of the program in the last few years as we've really tried to deepen the work now that we are really operating across all of Washington state.

Alyssa Scolari [03:18]:

Now, so you guys are all just in Washington state, but there are also other ... Aren't there other versions of Yoga Behind Bars that span across the United States as well?

Jess Frank [03:32]:

There are similar organizations, and we're [inaudible 00:03:35]-

Alyssa Scolari [03:35]:

Okay.

Jess Frank [03:36]:

... to quite a few of them actually. We have kind of like an informal email chain, and we've had a few conferences where different folks have come together across the country, so I think I'm aware of most of the established ones and they do ... They are all over the country, and there are a few that span multiple states, but I think most of them tend to recognize that this work is really different state by state because the majority of incarceration happens on the county and state level, and it's just such a disparate system from state to state, so it's kind of hard to really extend our work outside of our geographic area and do it well.

Alyssa Scolari [04:18]:

That's a good point. That's something I didn't even think about, but that's a very good point. So, wow, you guys are coming up on ... or it's been 12 years since you've been officially a nonprofit. How long have you been with the nonprofit organization?

Jess Frank [04:36]:

I came on as the Program Director five and a half years ago, and I was a volunteer for a few years before that. I actually did our training. That was kind of my entry point, which is required for anyone who volunteers with the organization inside the facilities. I did that training in 2013. So, I've been pretty at least adjacent or directly involved with the organization for over half of its time and existence, and I've definitely gotten to witness it grow in some pretty exciting ways that the YBB that I knew when I first got started and the YBB that exists today, there's been some really big and, I think, necessary changes that have come along that growth that I can definitely get into if we get there.

Alyssa Scolari [05:27]:

Yes. Can you please talk about that because I just ... The work that you're doing is so, it's crucial, and unfortunately, I think controversial in some ways. So, yeah, could you talk a little bit more about that and what you stand for with social justice and everything like that?

Jess Frank [05:50]:

Yeah. So, as with, I think, a lot of nonprofits, they're not always started by people who have a direct experience with the issue at hand. I think that's pretty common, and that's definitely YBB's experience with our founding. Honestly, when we think about the world of yoga too and who has access to yoga, who typically becomes a yoga teacher, there's also just sometimes not a lot of diversity or seeing ... We can see even in the United States like the people that maybe have most access to teach yoga are not always the people who have come from the parts of the world where yoga has been developed in India and also actually in Egypt where some of yoga was evolved as well.

So, across the spectrum of yoga, nonprofit work, we really, in the beginning, started as an organization I think with a lot of very well-intentioned people doing impactful work, but over time, it's become just increasingly essential to the organization and I think reflected in the greater community of doing social justice work that we have, really have representation in our teachers and our leaders in the organization of people who've been impacted by the criminal legal system, people who've been impacted by trauma and systemic oppression. That's really the direction that our organization has moved slowly but effectively to the point now where our leadership and the majority of our classes and who teaches them really does reflect the community that we serve.

Alyssa Scolari [07:40]:

So, you have brought on people who basically have lived the experience, who have been incarcerated, know what it's like, and can touch people in different ways.

Jess Frank [07:58]:

Exactly, and can also just understand aspects of the work and how to do it well from their own experience. I think that the organization has, in some ways, just become more effective at maybe not always the numbers but at the impact and the ability to really see that we're shifting not just things on an individual level but shifting some of the policies in this state that specifically impact people in the incarceration system, and trying to shift some of the just cultural, community culture understanding especially within the yoga community, especially within people who want to offer trauma-informed services, to just really expand people's awareness of this criminal legal system, which I keep calling that because it's not really criminal justice system.

Alyssa Scolari [08:55]:

I love that you call it that. Right. There's nothing just about it, right? Actually, it leads me to my next question. As I was sitting here, listening to you talk, I'm thinking to myself, how do you ... and I know the answer to this, but I think it might be helpful for our listeners out there who don't know so much about the criminal justice system. It might be helpful for them to hear this. So, what is the connection between trauma-informed yoga and incarceration? All right. How did the two go hand in hand? How do we get from one to the other, and why is it so necessary?

Jess Frank [09:36]:

Yeah, it's a really great question, and it's interesting because I think when I tell people what I do, there's never just this like, "Oh, cool. That's what you do?" That's never the answer. It's always like, "Oh, interesting," like [crosstalk 00:09:49].

Alyssa Scolari [09:49]:

Yep.

Jess Frank [09:51]:

... had kind of like, "What? How do these things all go together?" Right?

Alyssa Scolari [09:51]:

Yeah.

Jess Frank [09:55]:

Yeah, there's a lot to that, and I think it's one reason why when people work at our organization, it takes a long time to onboard them because we're dealing in spheres that are really misunderstood and charged and where there's a lot of complexity to really being able to, I think, operate within these systems in a way that doesn't cause harm. So, I'm talking yoga and the criminal legal space, and trauma is a connecting piece because on the one hand in the yoga industry, there can be so much healing. There can be so much trauma recovery and other kinds of recovery possible and aided by these practices and these communities, and at the same time, we also know that for many people, those environments can be re-traumatizing. They can feel very uninclusive, not safe. People don't know what exactly will happen. Are they going to be touching appropriately? Are they going to be just triggered constantly? Are they going to feel accepted, and they can show up as their full selves and not be kind of alienated or stand out?

So, we have the kind of dualistic side there like both the recovery and re-traumatizing, and then there's a whole other scope of like, who has access, right, like the costs and where yoga class is located, and who is welcomed into these spaces. So, there's also the access point where when we go now to look at the criminal legal system if people were incarcerated and impacted, and not just the people incarcerated but their family members and even people who are survivors of the criminal legal system and crimes that have happened and that have affected their lives, all sides of that. Also, we see a lack of access to the yoga based tools in the yoga communities. There is a disconnect of like who is impacted primarily when we look at poor people, people of color, people with mental health and addiction challenges. They're the same group of people maybe we're not very likely to see in yoga classes in our communities.

So, in prisons and jails, trauma is just pervasive not only for people coming in and their pre-existing trauma. Childhood trauma is immensely common. Upwards of 90% of people who are incarcerated have experienced severe trauma before incarceration, and then the experience of being incarcerated is traumatic. It's traumatic not only for the side of people who are sentenced, but it's often very traumatic for also survivors, and I've witnessed that firsthand in my own family. When I was in college, my brother, he survived a very senseless, violent assault that really impacted him profoundly for several years, took him several years to recover from. My family witnessed just how the whole process of the people who attacked him getting arrested, sentenced, sent to prison. There was no healing that came from that process for our family-

Alyssa Scolari [13:31]:

Yeah. Yep.

Jess Frank [13:32]:

... brother. It was just so impersonal and detached and legal and like there was no healing. There was no invitation to heal in that experience or help. So, across the board and then within the prison, within the jail environment, people have to be incredibly hypervigilant all the time, which is exhausting for their nervous system. There's violence. There's varying degrees of safety depending on where in the country you are. So, we know that some environments are more safe, but some are very, very unsafe. Historically, prisons have been some of the most unsafe places with the most violence of any place really in the country, so that's where the connect we feel is, that there's this cycle of trauma and stress in our lives and that people end up in the system where they encounter more trauma and stress, and then they just ... The cycle repeats whether it's then passed to other family members, or the individual gets out of prison and then goes back into prison.

So, we find that these tools can help people really kind of reclaim themselves and heal that dysregulation within their nervous systems to kind of reclaim themselves and heal themselves hopefully to stay out of prison and to keep their families from also being impacted by that system, but we don't go that far because we don't ... We're a little organization, and we're not trying to say we're solving this problem. We're just doing what we can to help.

Alyssa Scolari [15:17]:

You're doing what you can. Yes. Solving a problem is often not done on a global level anyway, right? It's bit by bit, person by person. You change one person, you change the world. I really think that you touched on so many different parts of why what you do is phenomenal and crucial, which is 90%, as you said, or higher of folks who go to prison have a history of trauma. Oftentimes, it is very extensive, and for the listeners out there, I know you already know this because our good friends, Michael DeLeon own who spent his life incarcerated and now runs and is the founder of a program called Steered Straight, which is about drug abuse prevention, you all know out there how deep that trauma can run.

Then, usually, as a result of unprocessed or untreated trauma, they engage in a crime, whatever that may be. Then, they end up in prison, which becomes just as traumatizing, if not more traumatizing than the way life was outside of prison. They have to be, like you said, hypervigilant all the time, so constantly aware, and their nervous systems have to be amped up 24 hours a day. They can't even sleep peacefully. So, yoga is just a way to regulate a nervous system for folks whose nervous system has probably never been regulated since the moment that they were born. I also think that it serves as such a great tool for when they come out of prison. Can you talk a little bit about like why it's also so important for them to have yoga as a tool for when they're released?

Jess Frank [17:22]:

Yeah, and I'm sensitive again to speaking for other people's experience, but I will say that what I have heard from many of our students and from my colleagues who have been in prison is that the immense stress and overwhelm of re-entering where not only have people finished their sentence and finished prison, but then there's like this whole second prison to re-entering where housing and jobs and access to services, all of this can become just very stressful, very difficult.

A lot of the people that I talk to that have been our students who've gotten out of prison are working two or three jobs on top of still supporting other people who are in prison and trying to reconnect with family, don't have a car, don't have a license, all this stuff. So, the stress and the overwhelm is pretty much unavoidable, but if people have a tool inside themselves ... One of our teachers named Nova talks a lot about this. She talks about how having a tool that couldn't be taken away from her inside of her to be able to just breathe and regulate herself with this kind of unavoidable stress is the difference from kind of like slipping into another decision, right, or another moment that can land one back in the same situation that they just came from.

Unfortunately, we can't solve all of that, and it's something that we all have to be thinking about of reducing discrimination for people who've already served time and making it more possible for them to integrate. YBB is trying to think about that too, and we're really excited for some upcoming partnerships that we're building to start to actually help people with re-entry, not by ourselves but in conjunction with other service providers because we just see how essential it is that people have more support than just having the yoga tools when they get out, though those are very important.

Alyssa Scolari [19:47]:

Yes. Yes. While they may be important, they're certainly, certainly not the be-all, end-all for the tools and the support that's needed for re-entry. Now, what exactly do you do in your role as the program director of YBB?

Jess Frank [20:09]:

I do a few different things, and being a small nonprofit, sometimes have to do many things, but the primary focus of my role is that I oversee our programs, and I support our instructors. So, this both includes our volunteer instructors and our instructors who are themselves incarcerated. I didn't mention that earlier, but that's a big part of how our organization has changed. I'm really, really blessed that I get to work with people who are leading our programs from the inside. I support them any way that I can, and they do amazing work.

Alyssa Scolari [20:51]:

Wow. That is fantastic. So, YBB has transformed into actually employing those who are still incarcerated and training those to train others.

Jess Frank [21:08]:

Yeah. So, we, in 2015, we did the first yoga teacher training in prison. That might be the first one that happened in the country, although quite a few are now happening. It's kind of taken off. There are others that have graduated people throughout the country as well, which is really exciting, but we did first one at Stafford Creek Correction Center in Aberdeen, Washington. We graduated 10 men from that facility, and then two years later, we did it at the Washington Correction Center for Women in Gig Harbor, Washington where we graduated five women. I'd say women and men with an asterisk because there are a lot of trans and non-binary people in prisons and jails, but it happens to be that all of the people in our trainings did identify that way, but we do want to just make sure that people know that when we refer to like men's facility or women's facility, that there are individuals in those facilities that don't identify with those genders, so just a little side note there but-

Alyssa Scolari [22:14]:

Yes, that's much appreciated. Much appreciated.

Jess Frank [22:18]:

Yeah. We did that, we noticed it didn't have exactly the results that we anticipated in every way. People have a lot of competing priorities and things, so today, we have about seven of these 15 individuals that teach, actively teach for us, but the impact that they can have, because they're on the ground, because it's their full-time job, because they don't have to drive three hours to get to the facility like our volunteers might have to, their impact is immense. Their classes are full. They're able to teach four to six classes per week and really build relationships with the people that they serve to just have a much more influential role in the culture of the environment and also on the relationships that they have with others.

The people that we've trained most often have had life sentences or even life without parole sentences, and that was somewhat intentional because, one, they're not often given very many programming opportunities. Laws change and kind of prioritize people close to release for programming. Two, they have been there for a long time. They're leaders, and they just are able to really impact people because of the investment they have in building those communities because that's their home, and so that's been really impactful as well to have people doing that program that are a little bit just more kind of established and have a lot of relationships.

Alyssa Scolari [23:54]:

Wow, and it gives a sense of a hope and purpose, which is so important and I think probably makes for a much less stressful and toxic environment, I would imagine obviously. As you said earlier, I don't want to pretend as if I know, and I don't want to speak about others' experiences, but I can imagine that that's something that you witness as sort of like it just becomes a much less stressful environment.

Jess Frank [24:31]:

Exactly. Yeah. There's a few of our teachers behind bars have been very forthright with their stories, and they've shared them with us and given us content for blogs, and so I know that in particular, a few of them are really open to sharing. This is part of the movement, right, and part of developing awareness is like, who gets to share their story, right? So, for me, in my role though, I'm the program director, a big part of my responsibility is to create avenues for others to have leadership and to create avenues for others to share their own stories.

So, in addition to supporting our teachers who live behind bars, I also train and oversee our trainings for people in the community to really help others understand the role of trauma-informed yoga and to learn how to utilize trauma-informed yoga tools to take back into their communities. We do this training all throughout the year. Right now, it's virtually, but we prioritize making it accessible to formerly incarcerated people and to black, indigenous and people of color, which sometimes we say BIPOC, but basically prioritizing accessibility for people who don't typically have as much access to our, not only yoga, a training, a several hundred dollar training, for instance.

Alyssa Scolari [26:02]:

So, you actually prioritize black, indigenous, persons of color to be able to get that training for free, or is it for a reduced price?

Jess Frank [26:12]:

Yeah. We do full ride scholarships. Some people tend to want to pay for part of it, but we just try to keep it really easy, and we do full ride scholarships for those folks. Then, we have a sliding scale for everybody else and have three different entry points.

Alyssa Scolari [26:30]:

Wow. I think you might've said this, and I'm so sorry if I missed it, but is that training just offered in the state of Washington as well? Or do you offer that training throughout the country now that it is virtual?

Jess Frank [26:43]:

Now that it's virtual, we have people joining from all over. We actually have a training coming up this weekend, and we have people coming from Ohio, from Wisconsin, even from Canada. So, yeah. It's really open to anybody that can make the time zone work. We have two coming up, and we just launched registration for one in March and one in February. They're 21 hours stretched across five days. Right now, it's all virtual, but when we are back to being able to gather in person, in groups, we will come back to doing it in person, which we travel and sometimes do it in ... We've done it in Chicago. We've done it in Maine, in Denver, in Minneapolis and all over Washington, and so, yeah. We'll see when that happens, but for now, the virtual training is actually going really well.

We have an amazing team of facilitators that I'm so blessed to work with, like a very intersectional team of people with different identities and different things to offer and different lived experiences. We all, because it's virtual, we actually are all facilitating it right now, whereas when we're in person, it's usually like two or max, three of us. So, I think the training experience online is actually really special. We're keeping it smaller, so it's a little bit more intimate and max of about 22 people participating. So, it's actually been surprising how Zoom has really facilitated an experience that has some perks in addition to being fully ... We've been able to transfer all of our content online pretty well.

Alyssa Scolari [28:27]:

That's fantastic, right? It's amazing. As horrible as this pandemic has been, there have been some good things that have come out of it. So, the training is 21 hours stretched across five days, and what does that training look like? I've always wondered.

Jess Frank [28:48]:

Yeah. So, we kind of have three objectives for this training. The first is that people come away from it, feeling that they can implement the tools that we offer. Someone can't necessarily come out and teach a full fledged, perfect trauma-informed yoga class especially because some people who take the training aren't yoga instructors to begin with, and you don't need to be one to really be able to implement a lot of the tools that we're offering, but second to that is that we feel it's crucial that people have awareness of their identity and how their various identities are going to be at play if they're especially offering yoga in kind of a low access space, prisons, jails, shelters with trauma survivors, that we're very aware of what we're walking into those situations, of what the assumptions we might be carrying, the assumptions that people might have about us, and how all of this kind of unconscious stuff is at play, and we have to shine a light on it and understand basically our positionality.

So, we've spent some part of the training, also looking at that, looking at the criminal justice, criminal legal space and the impacts that that has on communities and just understanding it really from kind of the social justice angle. Then, the last part is really understanding the context of prison specifically. What is it like to teach in a prison? Who comes to our classes? What are some of the ways that we need to operate with boundaries and consent specific to that environment? How does that maybe translate over to really all settings because consent boundaries and understanding the context is important in any situation where we're offering these kinds of tools? Then, lastly, to me, another objective is that we're building community and that people can come to this training and really feel a sense of we're in this together and meet other folks who are interested in doing this work, and so that's another priority is really giving people time to meet one another.

Alyssa Scolari [30:57]:

So, you're also doing this work, which we've touched on sort of but haven't actually said directly, which is you're breaking down stigma as well. That is another reason why this is so important because you are ... You said this earlier, but I almost get the sense from you that you feel like you're kind of laying down the groundwork to let other folks who have been oppressed in some way, shape or form really step into themselves, and I think that that's very, very hard for those who have been oppressed. It's not hard. It's impossible if they do not have people like you laying down the groundwork for them to allow them to step into themselves because in a way, what you're doing is you're helping to fight systemic oppression and stigma with what you're doing with Yoga Behind Bars.

Jess Frank [31:59]:

Yeah. I think we're trying. It's an immense issue, and we're trying our best to really be humble, to ask questions, to examine ourselves and the impact that we have as an organization, as individuals in the organization, and it's part of the work. It's part of the work to be in that inquiry and to be really trying to just increasingly recognize like, where might harm be happening that I'm not aware of? Where can I step back and really listen and be led, and where does my positionality actually mean I need to step forward and do some of the work or speak up because others can't?

So, for instance, with our teachers behind bars, they can't advocate for themselves in a way that will really land well for the people who have custody of them. On the other hand, I can advocate for them to make sure they get paid, to make sure that they get support, the support they need to lead their programs. That's something that I can do and that I might be listened or more credible or have people's ears. So, you may have heard the term gatekeeping, but I think YBB is trying to be a responsible gatekeeper and to really be an organization that, yeah, can be in that discernment that's required. It's not just like, oh ... It's not a binary. It's really being in the discernment of listening and being responsive to the changing needs that are happening all the time.

Alyssa Scolari [33:33]:

That's amazing. Just to clarify to the listeners out there, so Yoga Behind Bars is a nonprofit, so they thrive off of donations and grant money and funders, so if you're listening today and you really love the concept of Yoga Behind Bars and the work that they do and you'd like to support them, would you be able to talk a little bit just about where people can find you, where people might be able to donate or get involved or check out the trainings that are offered?

Jess Frank [34:12]:

Yeah. So, our website is www.yogabehindbars.org, and definitely check out the website. We have all of our information about our trainings and registration and scholarships there. Then, we have social media channels. Instagram is just @YogaBehindBars, Facebook. We aren't huge social media users, but we do put information there about our trainings and events, and it's a good place to just kind of stay in the know of what's happening in the organization. Then, in addition, we do absolutely rely upon individual support for our work. We are primarily funded by individual donors, and we don't get paid by the facilities with the exception of one out of the 15 that we teach in. We don't get paid for the programs that we run in facilities, so we are really run off of individuals. You can donate and support us at yogabehindbars.org.

We also have a luminary program that's our monthly donors. Monthly donating for any work is really, really impactful because you can just kind of think of it like a paycheck for yourself, like it helps with planning to have consistent income over time, so even $5 a month, $10 monthly is really impactful for our long-term sustainability for the organization.

Alyssa Scolari [35:43]:

Yes, it's so helpful, and it's so needed because this is a ... Yoga Behind Bars is a ... You're making a difference day by day, but it's a long-term goal, right? You're fighting battles that result in trying to win a war essentially. Sorry for the barking in the background if you guys can hear it. It's, well, one of my wild dogs, but so yes, to the listeners out there, I am actually looking at their website right now. I've looked it up before, but your website is very, very cool. I particularly appreciate the history and how it's broken down into the timeline, but I am going to link the website in the show notes and also in the Life After Trauma private Facebook group for everybody to check out. When you go on the website, it is in the top right hand corner. It says donate. There is a little white box around the word, so you can click right on that, and you can donate. Anything that you can would be great for them. You are all doing phenomenal work, so thank you so, so much for sharing. I really appreciate it.

Jess Frank [36:57]:

Thank you.

Alyssa Scolari [36:57]:

Thanks for listening, everyone. For more information about today's episode and to sign up for the Light After Trauma newsletter, head over to my website at alyssascolari.com. The really great thing about being a part of this newsletter is that not only do you get weekly updates on new podcast episodes and blog posts, but you also get access to the private Facebook community as well as access to all sorts of insider tips, resources, and infographs that supplement what we talk about on the show. You also can connect with me and other trauma warriors. I'm super active on the Facebook community, and I look forward to talking with you.