Light After Trauma

Did you know that the birth control pill can lead to clitoral shrinkage? Or that it can physically change your feelings of attraction to someone? Millions of people with female reproductive organs have been told by doctors to start taking birth control – whether it's for pregnancy prevention, period cramps, or sometimes even acne. However, very few people are ever informed of the extensive side effects that come with taking this small pill. On this week's episode we are joined by Julia Abbiss, the Impact and Associate Producer of The Business of Birth Control, a documentary that examines the complex relationship between hormonal birth control and women's health and liberation. Julia shares the lesser talked about side effects of birth control and how it relates to the much larger issue of women's wellness and reproductive rights.

The Business of Birth Control will be airing for FREE beginning Friday, February 4th, 2022 until Sunday February 6th, 2022. Whether you have been on birth control, know someone on birth control, or serve as an ally for women's health and reproductive rights, this film is hugely important and you can see it this weekend for FREE! Click here to watch!

For more information, follow The Business of Birth Control on Instagram and Facebook, @businessofbirthcontrol. You can also check The Business of Birth Control on the web at: https://www.thebusinessof.life/the-business-of-birth-control

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Transcript

Alyssa Scolari [00:23]:

Hi friends. Welcome back to another kick ass episode of The Light After Trauma Podcast. I am your host, Alyssa Scolari. And I know I say this every week, but I'm going to say it again. I am so fucking excited for today's episode. Like extra, extra, extra excited. This is a guest episode and we have a very special guest with us today. And we are talking about one of my favorite topics of all time. So obviously you all know that I have been having lots of health issues lately, and you are all aware that I ... Well, at the time of recording, today is January 21st. And my surgery is on January 27th for suspected endometriosis. And by the time this comes out, it'll be about five days after my surgery. And you all know that I have had quite the struggle with going to doctor after doctor to try to get some answers for what I've been going through. I have had years of excruciatingly, painful period cramps.

And when I was 19 years old, I was put on birth control and basically told that that was something I'd have to be on for the rest of my life in order to manage my cramps. And the birth control caused so many issues in my body. And I'm still trying to recover from the health issues that I have. Now, I didn't realize that so many of my health issues were connected to the birth control that I was taking. Actually, I didn't find that out until this year. And part of who helped me to find that out is our very special guest speaker today. Her name is Julia Abbiss. I got that right, right Julia?

Julia Abbiss [02:31]:

You did. Good job.

Alyssa Scolari [02:32]:

I fucking nailed it. Yes. So Julia is the impact and associate producer of The Business of Birth Control, which is an upcoming documentary. It examines the complex relationship between hormonal birth control and women's health and liberation. Now, Julia is absolutely so much more than that. And I actually know Julia-ish. So like basically episode 27, which was a long time ago. If you have not listened to that episode, it is with Urvashi Banerjea on I believe the title is Cultural Whiplash. As many of you know, Urvashi, I met in 2010, our very first day of college and Urvashi has been one of my best friends and Urvashi is also best friends with Julia, and Julia and I absolutely because our friend Urvashi loves to have these like every single year for her birthday, she throws these like elaborate birthday parties, like Urvashi celebrates herself so hard, which is one of the many things we love about her. And I swear that Julie and I had to have hung out at some point, although neither of us can remember.

But regardless we have become connected through Urvashi and through this documentary called The Business of Birth Control. Urvashi had been telling me a lot about it. She told me to watch it and I watched it and it brought me to tears. Happy tears, sad tears, tears of relief and validation. And we are here to talk about it today. And I know I'm blabbing a lot, so I'm going to turn this over to Julia in a second. But before we get started, I do want to say this.

Everybody is different. Everybody's body works differently. And some people, their lives have been changed for the better on birth control. And that's okay. So we are not here today to tell you that what you're doing is wrong or horrible if that is what works for you. However, what we're here to do today is talk about the ways in which people with female reproductive rights might not be made aware of when it comes to taking birth control. That is the goal here today. It is not to shame you or make you feel bad for what you are or aren't taking. We are just trying to spread awareness in topics where honestly, there isn't a whole lot of advocacy, support or awareness. So with that being said, I know that was a hell of a long introduction. So I'm going to turn it over to Julia. Hello and thank you for being here today.

Julia Abbiss [05:19]:

Oh my gosh. Thank you so much for having me. And it's great to ... I don't know. I'm going to say meet you even though I'm sure we crossed paths at one of the 72 hour birthday celebrations.

Alyssa Scolari [05:34]:

No, literally. No, literally, I'm sure.

Julia Abbiss [05:38]:

But I really appreciate that disclaimer, because one thing we want the takeaway to be is that this documentary, this movement is all about informed consent and promoting body literacy. The more that we know about our bodies, the more we know about our cycles and our functioning, the more that we can advocate for ourselves in our doctor's offices, as well as our bedrooms and every other place that we inhabit. So I appreciate that.

Alyssa Scolari [06:05]:

Yeah, no absolutely. And we know that women in this world are not treated nearly as well or are not nearly as informed as men are. And so much of this documentary I think is also about that as well. And I guess I'm getting a little ahead of myself. So let me back up for a minute and just say like, so can you elaborate on like what your role is in this documentary and why you're so passionate about this?

Julia Abbiss [06:42]:

Sure. So I am the impact and associate producer, like you mentioned. Impact production is essentially growing the grassroots space around the film. So I work on our communications, on our events and getting partners just to make sure that we can reach as many people as possible on college campuses, high school campuses, and really anywhere where women and gender nonconforming people are. The beautiful thing about streaming online is that it can reach everyone everywhere. So just essentially working to make that happen. But I got involved in this project about three years ago. What started as a little communication contract evolved into an impact production role, which I'm so grateful and honored to be in. I was actually never on hormonal birth control. My mom had a adverse reaction to it back in the 80s and essentially scared me. So it was one of those, my mom's British. So she's like, "You are not going on those birth control pills." [inaudible 00:07:48] with barrier methods. And I've recently been introduced to the FAM method, or just FAM, which is fertility awareness method, which we can talk about later.

So yeah, I came into this of an understanding of some of the side effects that can happen, which have come to find that women really are not informed. And truly the only reason I know about it is because of my mother. When I think back to reproductive health education in high school is poor, just very ...

Alyssa Scolari [08:18]:

To say the least.

Julia Abbiss [08:19]:

Yeah. I mean, and it just sounds like your only option is to go on the pill. I remember feeling shame that I wasn't on it, feeling pressure from my boyfriend at the time to be on it. And yeah, just not really wanting to talk to anyone because girls would be like, "Oh, have to take my pill." And I'm like ... So kind of that second guessing of like, oh my gosh, like, should I be on it? Like I'm a feminist. Like this is advancing women's liberation, women's rights.

But in the back of my head, just knowing, like, I don't think I want to risk all these different side effects, whether it's my mood, whether it's physical, but really what I'm most excited for ... The impact of this film to me is just to act as a great validator for women and GNC folks who have been continuously gas lit by their doctor, by their partners, by their friend and family, to just say like, hey, these are side effects that you might not have known could even come from the pill or whatever hormonal contraceptive that they're on. So I think it's going to be pretty powerful. I'm a little scared for the backlash of it for people who don't watch it and make assumptions. But yeah, we'll see what happens.

Alyssa Scolari [09:38]:

And this film aired at the New York Film Festival.

Julia Abbiss [09:44]:

At DOC NYC. Yes. And it was so incredible because we had an in person screening, which thankfully we snuck in during a low COVID time. But I know it was so nice to be in person and to actually hear the audience take. When you're in the background, just watching all of these rough cuts, you're like, I think this is good but not really knowing because you're so steeped in it, what the actual response will be. But you heard people sniffling when it got really emotional, you heard them laugh at different points that are just so outrageous that they're funny.

Alyssa Scolari [10:24]:

Right. That you have to laugh, you have to laugh.

Julia Abbiss [10:27]:

Yeah. But you could really hear a pin drop. I mean, it was just this moment of like everyone in the audience is really absorbing it and taking it in. And what was incredible was afterwards, we were able to have it streaming on the DOC NYC platform for two weeks. And every single day we were top 10 most streamed film and the largest documentary festival in the country. So it just acted as a validator or for us that people want this information.

Alyssa Scolari [11:01]:

Yes.

Julia Abbiss [11:01]:

And it's so needed and you have one woman who watches it who's going to tell five of her friends who tell five of their friends and it speaks to feminist grassroots building at its core.

Alyssa Scolari [11:17]:

Oh it absolutely does. It absolutely does. And I know, I mean just the gaslighting when it comes to like being put on this pill. And gaslighting that I think so many of us didn't even know was gaslighting. I wasn't even aware of ... I knew that I was being written off by doctors, but I wasn't even aware of how much I was being written off by doctors until I watched this documentary a couple of months ago. And I recall sitting in ... This had to be back in September. I came off of birth control like several years ago when I was really in the thick of my battle with PTSD. I was seeing this psychiatrist who, and at this point I had been on birth control for probably like seven years like at this point.

And my psychiatrist at the time was like, "Hey, I know that you're experiencing like a ton of anger and like a lot of depression and like thoughts of self harm." And she was like, "Why don't we try coming off of the birth control and seeing how that changes your mood?" And I was like, "What? Like, what are you talking about?"

Julia Abbiss [12:39]:

Yep.

Alyssa Scolari [12:40]:

And like, what was I? Like 26? That was the first time I had ever heard a doctor say that some of my mental health symptoms could have been the birth control. And I had been battling for years with rage, with crippling depression, like an anger that I cannot even put into words, anger doesn't do it justice. It is this surging rage that was pulsing through my veins. And when my doctor suggested coming off, like I was like, I can't do that. Like I can't do that. I have really bad cramps. And she was like, "Well, why don't we see what's going on underneath the birth control with the bad cramps and see if we can try to manage it some other way?" Low and behold, I came off the birth control and my cramps became significantly worse and that's because I've had endometriosis and probably have had endometriosis for years. And I probably wouldn't be as sick as I am right now if it weren't for that birth control just kind of putting a bandaid on it for a decade.

But I remember a few months ago going to a doctor before I even suspected I had endometriosis and I was telling her how bad my cramps are. And this was an OB-GYN. And she was like, "Well, why don't you go on the pill?" And I was like, "No, I was a monster on the pill. I was not myself." And I had tried several different verse of the pill and she was like, "Well, that's kind of your only option." And I was like, "But the birth control pill does X, Y, and Z to me." She literally looked at me and she went, "No it doesn't. Where'd you get that from?" And I was like, "My own experiences." And she was like, "Well, it's either that or suffer" is literally what she said to me.

Julia Abbiss [14:44]:

It's so unjust. I'm so sorry that happened. But I can't tell you how many stories I've heard at this point that are exactly the same. It's so interesting. We were on Clubhouse for a time and any kind of live stream event that we host that has a Q&A. I mean, they could run themselves essentially, but like we were on a Clubhouse for three and a half hours because you just had woman after woman coming on saying, "This is what I've experienced. I know that this isn't myself. No one's listening to me. It's making my other symptoms worse. It's acting as a panacea when I know that they're just festering underneath. Just because I can't feel it, doesn't mean it's not there." And just on the mood part, it's so fascinating. And we've talked about this, but Dr. Sarah E. Hill, she has a book called This Is Your Brain On Birth Control and she's in our film. And she just goes into all of these mental health side effects that no one warns you about. And none of the mental health practitioners are really aware of, it seems.

If you're dealing with girls who are adolescent through, let's say mid 30s who are experiencing depression or just any type of mood symptom. One of the first questions that should be asked is are you on birth control?

Alyssa Scolari [16:12]:

Yes.

Julia Abbiss [16:14]:

Let's eliminate some things. There's this great quote in the film from a journalist who kind of blew the cover off of birth control in England. And she has this great line where she's like, "Once I got off of it, I realized that every emotion that I felt was my own." And it doesn't matter how many times I watch it. It just gives me goosebumps.

Alyssa Scolari [16:42]:

Oh yes. Yes. I was sitting at my kitchen table when I watched that and I was not prepared for the emotional toll that it would have on me. Feeling like the first time I'm in my life, but I was not alone in what I felt from that pill. Like it was hugely validating. And I'm wondering if you could talk a little bit about some of the side effects because 9 times out of 10, when women are given birth control, they are not told any side effects. And quite honestly, one of the side effects that people talk about the most and are the most worried about is weight gain. And that is the least important side effect. Like first of all, it's water, weight, birth control, there are really like no studies that show, I think to my knowledge, that birth control directly contributes to your body storing more fat in your body.

So yeah, all we really hear about birth control is, "Oh, I don't want to gain weight. Oh, I don't want to gain weight. I don't want to gain weight," which is more of an issue about the fat phobia that lives in society.

Julia Abbiss [18:01]:

That's another documentary we'll get into, yeah.

Alyssa Scolari [18:04]:

Right. That's another documentary, but I'm wondering like, would you be able to talk about some of the different side effects that the documentary sheds light on for birth control?

Julia Abbiss [18:15]:

Absolutely. So I would break it up into physical, emotional, and relational. So I'll start with relational, which is kind of the most shocking is that hormonal birth control can affect your pheromones. So essentially who you're attracted to. And there's this study that's done that we show in the film about the smell test. So you see women smelling, they're like a row of sweaty t-shirts. And whichever one that they're attracted to the most is the partner that they should be with. And it goes down into like a lot of biological things that I can't get into because frankly it's not my area of expertise. But it's fascinating that women have reported that who they're attracted to while they're on the pill is different from when they're off the pill. So I'll leave your listeners ...

Alyssa Scolari [19:10]:

Wow.

Julia Abbiss [19:12]:

I'll leave a minute for everyone to just side eye their partner quickly, but that's really just kind of the most fascinating one. Yeah. Then there's physical. And so in terms of physical, one of the most shocking ones for me to learn about was Clitoral shrinkage. So your clitoris can actually shrink up to, I believe 20%, which obviously affects the intensity of your orgasm. But I think what's really interesting is that you have these girls going on birth control, younger and younger, they're on it for a majority of their sexual lives. And they're not actually experiencing what an orgasm can be, which I think is really important.

Alyssa Scolari [19:12]:

Yes.

Julia Abbiss [20:06]:

As well as affects your libido, which is the greatest irony of them all. You're on this to not get pregnant so you can have sex and not worry about it, but turns out you actually don't want to have sex.

Alyssa Scolari [20:18]:

Repulsed by sex.

Julia Abbiss [20:20]:

Totally. I think it was, oh, Sarah Silverman went on her podcast recently and was talking about how she just came off the pill for the first time. And she's like, "I'm so fucking horny and I had no idea."

Alyssa Scolari [20:34]:

Yes. Absolutely.

Julia Abbiss [20:40]:

Yeah. Which it's also just a commentary of how we teach girls about their sexuality, about masturbation, about orgasming. I mean, if you had a pill for a man that said, by the way, this might get your dick to shrink and you're not going to want to have sex as much, would it [crosstalk 00:21:02].

Alyssa Scolari [21:03]:

No way.

Julia Abbiss [21:05]:

There's absolutely no way.

Alyssa Scolari [21:07]:

Absolutely. There's no fucking way. It might change who you're attracted to, it might shrink your dick, your orgasms aren't going to feel as good. Like the fuck ...

Julia Abbiss [21:21]:

You might have depression and a blood clot.

Alyssa Scolari [21:26]:

Blood clot. This could potentially kill you but here you go.

Julia Abbiss [21:32]:

Yeah. You're not actually feeling those things. I mean, you have to laugh when you like, look at this all on paper, like this is outrageous. So I do want to just clarify that when we are talking about this that's related to your disclaimer in the front. This is purely to say that these are side effects that you could be experiencing and just things to look out for. But birth control is ...

The one thing that I do want to mention is that two things can be true. And this is what I think we're trying to accomplish with this documentary, is that we can say this is a product that has been a game changer for women. It has liberated us in every sense of the word, but we're just asking for a better product. We don't want it to be unavailable. We don't want, off the market. Like we just want better birth control for women and GNC folks to take where they don't have to worry about this litany of side effects. I mean, there's a scene in the film where you have one of the parents of a woman who unfortunately lost her life while on the pill, just opening up the essential, like scroll of side effects in tiny print, trying to find what it was that her daughter died from. And we're just kind of envisioning a world where that's no longer the case.

Alyssa Scolari [23:06]:

Yes. And we're also asking for just basic accountability for what these side effects are, because also in the film, I recall and correct me if I'm wrong or if I'm like misinterpreting this, but this like scene where they're talking about how they've gone through the FDA, and have brought these problems to the FDA. And it's not just doctors. It's the fucking FDA who's like, we did a good enough job at warning people.

No, the fuck you did not. No, the fuck you did not. There's not a single doctor. Well, I shouldn't say not a single doctor, but the majority of doctors do not inform about any of the side effects. And when that person's coming back with severe depression, nobody thinks to ask about the pill. All these side effects might be listed in some extremely jargony impossible to understand terms in very fine print that you need a microscope to read on this huge scroll that comes in the package. And just in asking for accountability, like the FDA's like, no, there's no issue why we should change this. Like we did everything on our part. We're fine with women potentially losing their lives and living a lower quality of life as a result of this pill.

Julia Abbiss [24:35]:

Yeah. So there's a particularly infuriating and incredibly heartbreaking part of the documentary where we follow the journeys of these bereaved parents who are trying to get justice for their daughters. And you see them coming together under these really tragic circumstances to appeal at hearings and ask for black box warning labels. And even just to come together to figure out ways to educate other women so that it doesn't happen to them. The FDA is a beast, and it's really intimidating, but incredibly inspiring that these parents are ready and willing and are taking them on. We've heard from the different critics of the documentary. Like, this is such a low percentage of women will die from using hormonal birth control, which yes, it's true. In the grand scheme of things, incredibly low percentage. But try telling that to the parent, who's lost a child. The most unjust way too. I mean, you have otherwise healthy girls. And I think a part of it too, is that we're not testing anything before we prescribe.

I mean, someone who has an estrogen dominance shouldn't be prescribed an estrogen based pill, but we don't know that. Instead, we're like, "Okay, try this one. And if it's not really working for you, let's try another one." And part of it in the beginning, you see these women talking about which forms of birth control they're on and many can't name it. They don't know the brand, they're on their fifth one. I mean, it's just ... And that's [inaudible 00:26:27] of the privilege of changing your birth control pill. So there's so many things. I mean, you look at pharmaceutical budgets and a majority of their costs go towards advertising. And it's a very slim percentage that goes towards actual research. An even slimmer percentage when it goes towards research for medications that are taken by women. So it just is so, so very infuriating.

Alyssa Scolari [26:59]:

It's infuriating and it's sickening. And it doesn't matter that the fact that there are few women who have died, it doesn't matter because that's still somebody's child, somebody's potential mom, somebody's sister. It doesn't matter. And it's not like it's difficult to tell test women prior to putting them on a pill. Hormone testing, have we tested them for any potential clotting disorders, like a history of a clotting issue because they know that birth control can cause blood clots. And it's said so casually. Like, oh, this can cause blood clots. So you just want to like keep an eye out. How does one keep an eye out for a blood clot?

Julia Abbiss [27:49]:

That was the ... Well, I shouldn't say hilarious.

Alyssa Scolari [27:51]:

I mean, hysterical in a very morbid sense.

Julia Abbiss [27:55]:

Exactly. But during the Johnson & Johnson vaccine controversy where they're like, oh, we're going to entirely pull from the market because it caused blood clots in, I think it was like three, nine ... It was an even smaller percentage. And you saw Twitter ablaze with women like, oh my God. Like wait till America hears about the birth control pill. And it just showed like, you can actually take this off the market and test it and give it its due diligence. No, I don't know if you saw any of those Twitter threads, but it was pretty ...

Alyssa Scolari [28:36]:

Hysterical. Yes. Like, oh yeah, wait until they get a load of what the birth control pill does. We're we're taking Johnson & Johnson off the market for the three to nine people who have had blood clots. Like the number of women who have had issues on birth control was astronomically higher.

Julia Abbiss [28:55]:

Well, can I just tell you, so I got the J&J vaccine and literally two days later it was pulled because of those side effects. And I was like, are you fucking me?

Alyssa Scolari [29:01]:

Oh no.

Julia Abbiss [29:02]:

Like, I've avoided birth control this entire time.

Alyssa Scolari [29:07]:

And it's a fucking Johnson & Johnson shot that's going to do me in.

Julia Abbiss [29:11]:

Oh my God. Classic.

Alyssa Scolari [29:12]:

Son of a bitch. Oh God. And here's the other thing that I think is important to like touch base on. And there's another very simple way of tracking your cycle and being able to be your own form of birth control that's talked about in the film that women never get told. It's very, very fascinating how women are immediately put on a pill when this pill has many side effects, causes suicidality in women, decreases their quality of life, decreases their sex drive, can cause blood clots, all of these other issues, and gastrointestinal issues. That's the other thing we should say is that there's been a ton of research that shows that birth control is linked to gastrointestinal issues.

When I came off the pill after what? Seven years of being on it, I had gut issues that I am still trying to get under control. Like, I mean bad. But whatever. You guys know about my gut issues too. So all that, but what we don't tell women and what they're not given the choice to be like, oh, well, what you could do is also track your cycle yourself. Like there are tools out there that you can purchase where you can track your own cycle and gauge your own fertility. And part of that is because we live in a world that's like, you should be terrified of sex. And if you even think about sex, you're going to get pregnant. That's not actually the case.

Julia Abbiss [31:01]:

Yes. I was today years old when I found out that you could only get pregnant for essentially six days out of your cycle. And that just totally blew my mind. And it's so interesting because most women aren't told this until they're actually trying to get pregnant. So why aren't we using that six days cycle to inform when we can't get pregnant? So there's all these different devices now in the fem tech world, which is so fascinating and it's ever evolving that essentially you are able to track your cycle, to find out when that optimal window is. In which case, if you're trying to prevent pregnancy, you can use alternative barrier methods or anything else that works for you. Some women double up who they have a non-hormonal IUD and also do cycle tracking.

So like the birth control pill, it is the most effective when you are taking your temperature, your basal temperature every single day at the same time. There's research being done about connecting your Fitbit, your Apple Watch to track your temperature and sync it with your app so that you don't actually have to take your temperature every morning. And it like can like register when you're waking up so it takes your temperature immediately, which is honestly the problem that I've had. Because when I try taking my temperature, I have like no set sleep schedule. So my timing is always so off. I'm not like a reliable candidate when it comes to actual temperature taking.

But if you are meticulous and you're able to take it at the same time every day, and it is optimal when you do have a regular cycle, which I know eliminates a lot of people unfortunately. But I think that these different apps are coming out by female founders also, which is really inspiring that you have all these women who've experienced all these different adverse side effects and thinking surely there has to be a better way. And they're making that happen. So it's a movement that I really think we should all be paying attention to and seeing what's to come.

Alyssa Scolari [33:31]:

Yeah, absolutely. And this is a movement that's about, again, I just want to reiterate what we talked about at the beginning of this, which is that this is not about trying to shame you or make you feel bad if you have taken birth control and you have experienced great benefit from it. If you have, good for you. This is not about trying to erase birth control. This is about trying to spread awareness and help people become educated. And for me, watching that film, The Business of Birth Control, which is what this entire discussion is based off of, is it was hugely validating for me to know that so much of my depression and rage really wasn't me. And I have found in the work that I've done with so many of my clients who have female reproductive organs who were on the pill when they have come off of the pill, they are so completely different in terms of how they are able to manage their depression, their anxiety, their PTSD symptoms.

And now, so many of the conversations that I have with my clients are them being like, "Was I ever even depressed in the first place? Or was it the birth control that has made me depressed?" I have had clients come off of birth control and no longer require therapy because they are absolutely fine. So this is about spreading awareness. This is about promoting women's advocacy. This is about reproductive rights, and this is about fighting for your right as a woman or as a person with female reproductive organs to have a really good fucking sex life with yourself and with other people.

Julia Abbiss [35:24]:

Amen.

Alyssa Scolari [35:25]:

Like that is what this is about. And I strongly encourage you if you are listening to this today, I strongly encourage you even if you have male reproductive organs, if you identify as a ... Like, I strongly encourage you to watch this anyway, because we also need you as allies to help advocate. So much of the advocacy I've had to do for myself, I know I wouldn't have been nearly as effective if my husband weren't standing by my side, learning about birth control as well. So get on board with this and we actually have a way for you to be able to see this film. Julia, can you talk about that?

Julia Abbiss [36:12]:

Yes. So we have a 48 hour free screening opportunity starting on Friday, February 4th, going till Sunday, the 6th. And you can sign up on our website. Again, it's for free at thebusinessof.life. I don't know if you're able to link that in your show notes.

Alyssa Scolari [36:32]:

I sure am. And today is February 1st. Well, if you are listening to this on the day that the podcast launches, then it is Tuesday, February 1st. And so we have just days and this film will be airing for free. The link will be in the bio. I highly encourage you to go check it out. Whether you are a mental health professional, this can help you, whether you are somebody who's taken birth control before, this can help you, whether you are somebody who is married to somebody or who is in a relationship with somebody or knows somebody who has been on the pill, this can help you. So the link will be in the bio. And Julia, thank you so much for your time, for your expertise, for having such a incredible role in the making and creation and promotion of this film. Because this is really helping women to, I think, feel a sense of solidarity. I know that's what I felt when I watched it. Hugely validated and so not alone. So thank you.

Julia Abbiss [37:39]:

Thank you so much, Alyssa. I really appreciate it and loved being on your show. Thank you.

Alyssa Scolari [37:46]:

Thanks for listening everyone. For more information, please head over to lightaftertrauma.com or you can also follow us on social media. On Instagram, we are @LightAfterTrauma. And on Twitter, it is @LightAfterPod. Lastly, please head over to patreon.com/lightaftertrauma to support our show. We are asking for $5 a month, which is the equivalent to a cup of coffee at Starbucks. So please head on over. Again, that's patreon.com/lightaftertrauma. Thank you and we appreciate your support. [singing]

Over the last several years, the term "gaslighting" has gained significant popularity among adults and adolescents alike. "Gaslighting" is a term that has been around since the 1930's, but what does it really mean? And are we, as a society, over-using/over-simplifying this term? The fact of the matter is that gaslighting is an insidious type of abuse that causes psychological and sometimes physical wounds that may take years or even decades to heal.

Medical News Today source material

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Transcript

Alyssa Scolari [00:23]:

Hey, everybody. What's popping? Welcome back. Welcome. Welcome. Welcome. It's that time, another episode of the Light After Trauma podcast. I am your host, Alyssa Scolari and I am hanging in there. You didn't ask, nobody asked. Well, technically some of you asked. I have had quite a few of you reach out in my DMs on my Instagram, which if you haven't given us a follow yet it is lightaftertrauma. Go check us out on Instagram. As many of you know, I have a surgery coming up and my surgery is in two days from when this episode launches. So my surgery is January 27th and I am really looking forward to it. Yeah, I know it's kind of weird, but I'm actually really looking forward to surgery because I am so excited to not be in pain 24 hours a day. And for those of you who might be new to this episode or this podcast, and really haven't listened to previous episodes, I'm having endometriosis surgery.

Alyssa Scolari [01:31]:

It has been quite the journey. You can feel free to look back at some of my previous episodes. I do actually have an individual episode where I speak about what my process has been with endometriosis. And yeah, so this surgery just feels like a long time coming and I'm getting really excited. I was so nervous that with the rise of Omicron, that my surgery was going to get canceled because the hospital where I'm getting my surgery actually canceled the first two weeks in January because of how badly the virus was spiking. So I thought for sure that there's like no way I'm having the surgery, but as of right now, when I'm recording this, which is Sunday the 23rd, as of right now, my surgery is still on. So hopes and prayers and well wishes that it stays that way. And I'm just asking you all for prayers and well wishes and healing vibes for the recovery, because the way the surgery works and I will definitely do a part two postop about my experience with the surgery and the recovery process.

Alyssa Scolari [02:43]:

But so my understanding, I am not necessarily going to wake up and be healed. The recovery is still going to take months. I'm still going to need lots of physical therapy. And there's a possibility that this disease has spread to my other organs, which I am hoping and praying isn't the case because I am really looking forward to getting back and living my life. But it is a possibility that this has spread to my bladder, to my bowels, in which case I may need another surgery or even multiple other surgeries. And honestly, it's a little too much to think about right now because I so desperately want to get back to just living my life, but it is what it is. And I will cross that bridge when I get to it. I'm just trying to take things one step at a time. And as of right now, my surgery is on.

Alyssa Scolari [03:40]:

So thank you so much for everybody who reached out. For anybody who has sent gift cards, we've had people that have sent us meals and gift cards for food, because I have been in so much excruciating pain and my husband has been tending to my every need because honestly, sometimes it's all I can do to just go downstairs and like lay on the couch. It's exhausting. And so, food has sort of been like very low on the totem pole in terms of priorities. So we are really, really lucky to have lots of amazing friends and family and just fans of the podcast who have reached out and sent cards. And my one friend, Jen, who was on the podcast just a couple weeks ago to talk about healing crystals, she sent a healing crystal package, which again, if you haven't listened to that episode, it's called the Hype About Healing Crystals. And it's really, really good.

Alyssa Scolari [04:39]:

I am somebody who was very skeptic goal about healing crystals, but after meeting Jen, and then a couple of other experiences, which I talk about in that episode, I've become hooked on healing crystals. They're amazing. And Jen sent me this incredible care package. And if you haven't done so already, also go check out Jen's website. It's also in the show notes for that episode. And I think our website is healingartbyjen.com. Her work is absolutely incredible. So I got that package from her, which was really nice and we've just really been feeling the love. So thank you so much for the support. And I will stop blabbing about that now. And I'm going to transition into what we're talking about today, which is a highly requested topic and a topic, which I have been promising for literal months that I was going to talk about. Honestly, probably a year at this point, I have been promising, I was going to put out an episode about this, but... So this has been a long time coming.

Alyssa Scolari [05:36]:

We are talking about gaslighting today. So this is a term that I feel like is really important for us to discuss. And partially is because everybody's heard this term before, which on the one hand, I'm like, oh, this is really great. We are becoming more knowledgeable as a society, about mental health and abuse and psychological abuse. But then on the other hand, I'm kind of like, yeah, it's kind of a problem that every single person is aware of what gaslighting is, because this has become like a very popular term on all social media platforms. And it just has paved the way for so much misinformation to be spread about this. And I work with both adolescents. I work with like younger kids, maybe like 8, 9, 10, and then I also work with adults.

Alyssa Scolari [06:35]:

And across the board, I have heard adults and kids alike misuse the term. And of course, I've heard abusers misuse the term, right? Abusers tend to use this term in a way that serves them and fits them. So I've just heard so many people misusing it and overusing it, which does a couple things, right? Number one, that definitely almost like dilutes the potency that is gaslighting. So when every single person is like, "I've been gaslit. I've been gaslit. I've been gaslit. You're gaslighting me. You're gaslighting me. They're gaslighting me." It almost becomes a term that's sort of like, eh, it's gaslighting. And then we kind of lose, like I said, the potency, we don't really understand the horrific effect that gaslighting can have when we are using that term all of the time.

Alyssa Scolari [07:39]:

And then again, it also just allows for so much misinformation to be spread about what it is. So as an example, if you are 14 and your mother says, no, you're not allowed to go to the movies with your friends. I've heard 14 year olds be like, oh, my mom was gaslighting me because she didn't understand how important it was for me to go to the movies with my friends. So she was gaslighting me the entire night. And it's like, yeah, that's not really what gaslighting is. When people set boundaries with us, we are not being gas lit or vice versa. When we set healthy and appropriate boundaries with other people, that's not gaslighting. And I've heard a lot of people mistake other people setting boundaries as gaslighting, and we are going to get more into it. So I really wanted to do this episode justice and I am very familiar with gaslighting, but I am certainly not an expert in everything or really much of anything besides I would consider myself an expert in trauma and eating disorders. But whatever, basically the point is I can always learn always, always, always.

Alyssa Scolari [08:56]:

So I really wanted to do this episode justice and bring in a little bit more information than what I had in my toolkit today. And so I am getting a lot of my information today, supplementing this episode with information from medicalnewstoday.com. And I will include that in the show notes. I will include the exact article that I am using. So you can feel free to go and check it out. But I actually have always been really fascinated with the phrase gaslighting itself, because I've always been like, what does that mean? Where does that come from? It just seems like such an odd name. And I never had a clue.

Alyssa Scolari [09:42]:

So basically what I learned and I learned this through this website, Medical News Today is that gaslighting is actually derived. So this term has been around since the 1930s, which is wild because I feel like a few years ago, people had never even heard of the term, but it's really felt like over the last few years with I think the rise of like social media and TikTok and part of my theory is like I think there's a ton of therapists on TikTok that talk a lot about gaslighting and a ton of mental health professionals and medical professionals, which again is great.

Alyssa Scolari [10:19]:

Unfortunately, gaslighting has been pulled out of context, but I really think that with the rise of a lot of like mental health professionals and medical professionals on social media, we've seen a lot more of this term, but really this term has been around since the 1930s. And it was derived from a play, which I think is fascinating. So there was a play by a man named Patrick Hamilton. It launched in the 1930s and 1938 to be specific. And then it was actually turned into a film in 1944 and the title of the film and the play is called Gaslit. And the plot of that play slash film essentially is where a husband, he manipulates his wife and he tricks his wife into believing that she's sick with severe mental illness, because he was constantly dimming the lights in their home.

Alyssa Scolari [11:23]:

And at that time, the lights in people's homes were gas fueled. So what her husband was doing is he was playing this like psychological trick. I mean, it's much more insidious than that, but he was making his wife feel like she was not in reality, not in her right state of mind. He made her feel like she was mentally ill because he kept dimming their gas fueled lights in the house. And then when she would say something about it, he kept telling her that she was hallucinating. So he supported her in this question or belief or crisis about her like mental illness. He was like, yep, Nope. You're the issue. You're hallucinating. So that's where we get this concept of gaslighting from. And basically at the grassroots, gaslighting is psychological abuse and gaslighting can be done by a single person.

Alyssa Scolari [12:20]:

It can be done by a group of people. It can be done by an institution and we will get more into that in a little bit. But basically the goal when somebody is gaslighting you, or when people are gaslighting you, the goal is to make you question your memories, your beliefs, your own perception of reality. And ultimately, gaslighting is meant to make you question your sanity. And over a period of time, gaslighting causes you to feel constantly anxious and confused and scared. And you don't even trust yourself. You don't trust your thoughts. You don't trust your feelings. You don't trust your emotions. That is the ultimate goal of gaslighting.

Alyssa Scolari [13:18]:

So there are several specific techniques that are used when it comes to gaslighting. And I believe that there are even more than what I'm about to list. Like at the end of the day, when it comes to gaslighting, when somebody's going to gaslight you, I feel like it's probably rare that they're going to sit down and be like, "Hmm, let me look at all of these subcategories of gaslighting and pick which one I think is going to work the best."

Alyssa Scolari [13:45]:

But I feel like based off of the research that is done, or that has been done to date, these are the techniques that we are aware of and have been able to gather so far. So the first is countering, and this is basically when somebody is causing you or making you feel like you need to question your own memories. So this can happen a lot. And a lot of gaslighting happens in like domestic violence in situations. This also can happen a lot with child abuse where a parent or the abuser might say something like, "Are you sure that happened?" Or it might not even necessarily be a parent or an abuser. Again, as we're going to talk about later, it could be anybody who says this. So the person might say like, "Are you sure that really happened? Are you positive?"

Alyssa Scolari [14:41]:

Like you don't always have a track record of having the best memory. So I just want to make sure are you positive? And they ask in this like very condescending way, right? There's nothing innocent about this question. It might be a question, but this person is asking you this because they already know the answer that they want from you. So then, there's withholding. And that looks like stonewalling. It's when somebody absolutely refuses to engage with you or engage in a conversation. Sometimes that person might pretend to like misunderstand you. Like let's say you catch your partner... I don't know. Let's say you caught your partner cheating, right? You suspected partner was cheating and you followed them. They said they were going out with their friends. You followed them. You found that they were in fact cheating on you.

Alyssa Scolari [15:39]:

And then you go to confront your partner. Your partner might be like, "I'm not having this conversation with you. Like, I can't believe that you wouldn't trust me. I'm not doing this." Or, "I have no idea what you're talking about. And you're making me feel confused. Like this doesn't make any sense." All this, like just completely shut down. Like I'm not having this conversation with you. I don't know what you're talking about basically. When you get your head screwed on straight, then come back to me and we can have a conversation. So that's withholding, looks a lot like stonewalling. And then there's trivializing, which this one happened to me all the time when I was little.

Alyssa Scolari [16:26]:

So it's evil. And the upsetting thing about it is that so many parents do this, but not because they're being inherently mean, or they want to harm their child. So many parents do this type of gaslighting because they don't know better, because they think that that is the way to handle a child's emotions. And again, we see trivializing across the board, right? Anybody can be gaslit. When I'm talking about like personal experiences and a lot of experiences that I've seen in my private practice. I've seen a lot of parents that often will say things like, "You are 14. You have no idea what depression even is." Or, "Are you seriously crying right now? Get it together. I will give you something to cry about." Or, "There's no need to be upset about this. You are being ridiculous." Or, "You are so dramatic. This is not a situation in which you should be upset. Like this is not a reason to cry." All of those things are trivializing emotions.

Alyssa Scolari [17:48]:

Or if you're looking at like intimate partner relationships, right? Let's say your partner does something that triggers you. Like the other night, David and I, we were having a conversation and he had said something about how he kind of feels like my voice is really loud in the house and that my voice carries and it does. All of these things are true, but he did not realize that for me, being told that I'm too loud is a huge trigger. And so, he said it and he said it in like a very laughing and joking matter, there was nothing wrong with the way he said it, but I was flooded with shame and I actually started to cry. And he could have said, "You're being ridiculous. You're being so ridiculous. This is not a reason to cry," but he didn't. Because I was very upset. My whole life have always been told that I am too loud, that I am too obnoxious and I'm Italian.

Alyssa Scolari [18:50]:

I get very passionate about things. And that's also just who I am as a person, my voice gets loud. My voice carries. And I personally have never been ashamed of my voice, but I have felt shame a lot when I... I just have very distinct memories of my friends and previous partners. And even my family that have always been like, "Shut up. You're being so loud." And I just am talking at like my normal pace, my normal volume, honestly. So I have lots of shame around that. It was very upsetting to me when he said it. He didn't mean anything by it, but he could have easily, again, just been like, "What are you talking about? You're being ridiculous." But instead he sat down, he listened to me. He acknowledged why I feel shame. He let me tell him why I feel so much shame around being told that my voice is really loud.

Alyssa Scolari [19:50]:

And as a result, I felt so much better after. I was able to move through the shame. So situations like that also can be trivializing. Then there's denial and denial is pretty much self-explanatory. This person is pretending to forget or is saying that you're making things up. This happens so much with abuse, sexual abuse more specifically, right? It's bad enough that survivors are sexually abused, but then the psychological abuse that comes after the women make these things up. And I'm not just talking about women. Men and gender nonconforming people, non-binary, people are also sexually abused, but we are told that we are making it up. That that's not how it happened or that we wanted it or we consented. Anything, right? That's not what really happened is what we are told all of the time.

Alyssa Scolari [21:04]:

Again, that is a form of gaslighting. That makes us question our reality because the majority of people walk into my office thinking they may possibly have been sexually abused, but the amount of denial based gaslighting that they've experienced in their lives have them questioning whether or not they were actually abused, which is why when people often come into my office, they don't just have trauma. They have eating disorders, addictions, OCD, several other things that they had to develop as a way to cope with their abuse because so many people have told them that abuse didn't even happen. So they weren't given a chance to truly deal with it. I hope that makes sense so far. And please, I know I'm throwing a lot of information at you, but please feel free to reach out if any of you have any follow up questions about this.I would be more than happy to talk more about whatever questions you might have.

Alyssa Scolari [22:07]:

So then there is diverting, and this is when somebody changes the focus of a discussion and then questions the other person's credibility instead. So what do I mean by this? Well, I have a really good example. So this is an example of a situation that happened between two friends. So the one friend, basically these two people have been best friends for years. And the one friend has always been the helper/supporter/pseudo therapist for the other friend, always listening to this person's issues. And always trying to help this person, would pick up the phone at 1:00 AM, 2:00 AM, 3:00 AM. Anytime this person needed them, the friend was there. And yes, the boundaries in this relationship were very inappropriate in this friendship.

Alyssa Scolari [23:06]:

And things only continued to get worse. So at one point, this friend who was struggling with mental health started to rely on the pseudo therapist friend entirely too much. And when this person was feeling suicidal, they would call almost every night, wake this person up in the middle of the night. It just became too much. Now when the pseudo therapist friend tried to set a boundary and tried to talk to this other friend about how they were feeling, this friend said, "Look, I feel really bad. I know you're really struggling, but I am not the person to help you. And in fact, you are struggling so much that it's now affecting me and my mental health. So I really need you to try to get a therapist because I'm just not the one to help you."

Alyssa Scolari [23:58]:

The friend who is struggling with her mental health totally changed the topic of the conversation and threw it back on the pseudo therapist friend by saying, "Wow, I guess I'm just too much for you. Well, have you ever thought that maybe you're a bad friend? Have you ever thought that maybe you should care about somebody other than yourself for once?" And then what happened is the pseudo therapist friend ended up feeling guilty and ashamed and like a terrible friend, and then just stayed silent and continued to suffer and continued to get up at 1:00 AM, 2:00 AM, 3:00 AM night after night after night to help this person, because they were gaslit into believing that they were a bad friend.

Alyssa Scolari [24:53]:

So what that person did is they heard that a boundary was being set. They didn't like said boundary. So they completely changed the focus and put the focus back on the pseudo therapist. And saying, nope, the issue isn't me. The issue is you. That is the purest form of gaslighting and diverting, right? And then we have stereotyping, and this is again, pretty much self explanatory. Right? We see this so much with really anyone, whether it's race, ethnicity, sexuality, nationality, age, we see this so much with age.

Alyssa Scolari [25:42]:

And it's as simple as honestly like, oh, you're a woman. You can't drive. You don't know what to do. You're a woman and you can't do math. Or you're old, and therefore like are you sure you are remembering that... Like, are you sure you actually know what you saw because you're old and your memory's not as good as it used to be. It's basically just taking stereotypes that we have about people and minority groups and using them against them. I'm not going to go into further detail on this because using the stereotyping piece, because honestly stereotypes are really, really hurtful and I hate them and they trigger me. So I'm sure that they would trigger other people. So you understand what I mean.

Alyssa Scolari [26:35]:

So these are the like subcategories of gaslighting that we know about so far. Again, I think there are probably others out there, but this is what we know about so far. And as I mentioned, gaslighting happens across a million gazillion platforms. It's not just from between friends. It's so much between intimate partner relationships. And this is part of the reason why people have such a hard time leaving when they're in a domestic violence relationship is because of the gaslighting. This happens a lot in child parent relationships. Happens a ton in the medical field so much. And you all know that I am no stranger to the medical gaslighting. I mean, just in my battle with endometriosis alone, I cannot tell you how many doctors have told me that my pain. Or have not directly told me, but have tried to indirectly tell me that my pain is in my head or that it's my fault that I'm in pain.

Alyssa Scolari [27:56]:

"Well, if you lost weight, you'd feel better." Or, "Well, if you took Advil, you'd feel better. Well, that's just the way period cramps are. You're just supposed to be in agony, throwing up." Medical gaslighting constantly. And this is so dangerous because this leads to physical problems happening as well, right? Over a period of time, I started to gaslight myself with my own pain and still do. What if it's not that bad? I'm terrified to go on surgery on Thursday because I'm afraid they're not going to find anything. And I often say to my husband, like what if they don't find anything? What if this is just all in my head? And so much of that is due to all of the medical gaslighting I have experienced where people have made me feel as though my pain is not valid. And it's just a result of me being weak.

Alyssa Scolari [29:01]:

So on medicalnewstoday.com they actually say here, what I think is really interesting, that in 2009, there was a study done that found that doctors were twice as likely to attribute coronary heart disease symptoms in middle aged women to mental health conditions versus middle aged men. So if you have coronary heart disease as a woman, you are twice as likely to be told that your symptoms are a result of your mental health, as opposed to men, which is absolutely staggering. And honestly should be shocking, but it's really not with everything that I've learned about medical gaslighting. So yeah, it happens a lot. I am certainly no stranger to it. In fact, I had an appointment with a doctor just a few weeks ago and was talking about my symptoms, my endometriosis symptoms, which again, as many of you know is throwing up, chronic fatigue, passing out from the pain.

Alyssa Scolari [30:05]:

I am in pain all of the time. I have severe GI issues. There's not a whole lot of food I can keep down. My quality of life is just in the toilet. And a doctor literally told me to stop catastrophizing. Stop catastrophizing. I'm just going to let you sit with that for a second. The rage that I felt, ugh, I digress. But so anyway, in addition to the medical gas lighting and the child parent relationships and the intimate partner relationships, we also have racial gaslighting. This is so prevalent. This is when people are applying those gas lighting techniques to a group of people based on race or identity, tons of the stereotype gaslighting. Also, it fits right in here. And I'm not going to go to too many examples, but basically you may deny. A lot of this happens when like white people say or make fun of this concept, that white people can't be discriminated against based off of the color of their skin, because they can't be.

Alyssa Scolari [31:26]:

And many of us know that, but white people love to say, they love to deny people of minority their experiences of oppression, of discrimination, things like that. White people... Not all white people. But many way people love to say that they understand what it's like to be an African American person, an Asian American person. They know what it's like to be discriminated against. No, we absolutely don't. Absolutely don't. And to pretend like we do is gaslighting. I see this so much with the body positivity movement. There are thin people, people who have thin privilege everywhere that are taking to social media and showing pictures of their bodies after they eat meals and their bodies are like bloated and they are hashtag fat positivity. Honey, no.

Alyssa Scolari [32:24]:

And to do that, to say that is denying the experiences of actual fat people who exist and who are constantly invalidated in this society. Having thin privilege, you can be an ally and you can absolutely support the fat positivity movement, but not everybody. And I literally mean that not everybody can be a fat person and not everybody will understand what it is like to have the experiences of a fat person in this world. Thin privilege is very, very real. And whatever, that's a topic for another episode, but you understand what I mean, racial gaslighting. It's really based on ethnicity, but you can be gas lit based on again, body shape, whether you have a disability, if you are in a wheelchair your entire life. You are essentially a target for gaslighting, unfortunately.

Alyssa Scolari [33:30]:

There's also political gaslighting, which is really about political parties hiding things or things, or withholding information that might change their followers' opinions, or beliefs or views on a subject. It's when politicians are withholding information or denying things for their own personal gain.

Alyssa Scolari [33:58]:

And then there's institutional gaslighting. And really this can occur at any company or organization. And this happens so often where employees are gaslit by their bosses. So for example, I worked at a restaurant many moons ago and I had a boss who was hitting on me. Well, I'm not going to even say hitting on me. He was sexually harassing me and I let it go. I let it go. I let it go. But then something happened that was extremely inappropriate and made me extremely uncomfortable. And I decided that I could not continue to go into work and work under him because I was terrified. I was so afraid of him. So I reported him and I ended up being pushed out of the job. I was told by my peers when it had gotten out that I reported him, that I ruined his life, that I should feel so sorry for him, because he is not going to be able to pay his bills. That I'm mentally ill and I need to stop making things up.

Alyssa Scolari [35:23]:

And eventually, they stopped putting me on the schedule to come into work. I essentially lost my job because I was trying to stand up for my right to not be sexually harassed in the workplace and to not be raped because that's where it was going. And I lost my job. And this happens so often, especially when it comes to sexual harassment. But when it comes to standing up for anything, asking for a raise, asking for just getting your basic needs met in the workplace, right? Whether you need a break, whether you need time to be able to eat lunch, whether you need a raise because you haven't had a raise in years, you will be made to seem like you are the issue. It always the case that you're going to get a raise.

Alyssa Scolari [36:21]:

And all a sudden your boss is like, well, your performance hasn't been the best over the last couple of months. And there are some things you can improve upon. And once you make those improvements, oh, we will totally talk about a raise. That's bull. That is absolute bull. That is gaslighting because you are then left questioning your own reality where you were strolling along thinking you were a fantastic worker, but all of a sudden you're like, well, wait a minute. Am I really that good of a worker? Like, do I need to improve? I didn't realize I was a bad worker. So gaslighting, gaslighting, gaslighting. That is what that is.

Alyssa Scolari [37:10]:

Now, it is this pervasive, pervasive problem in the world. And yes, it is overused and sometimes oversimplified. And I wish that it wouldn't be because this type of psychological abuse has a profound impact on your mental and physical health for years or decades to come. This type of psychological abuse leaves us feeling confused. We are constantly second guessing ourselves. We are constantly feeling indecisive. I struggle sometimes even to pick out what I want for dinner. If we are at a restaurant, I will look at the menu forever because I don't trust myself enough to pick what I want. I'm second guessing myself. I am double checking. I need to make like a whole God chart before I pick out a meal at a restaurant because I'm that unsure of myself. We can't make even the simplest of decisions.

Alyssa Scolari [38:20]:

We are told that we are too sensitive. We then become withdrawn and unsociable. We are constantly apologizing for our behaviors. I am so guilty of this. I am constantly sorry. And it's a work in progress, but I'm still constantly apologizing to people, right? Oh, I'm so sorry. Oh, I'm so sorry. Oh, I'm so sorry. I've really had to make an intentional effort, but this is a result of all of the gaslighting that I've experienced in my life. We tend to defend our abuser when we've been gaslit, right? Again, this is often why, and not all of the reason why, but this is often why people do not leave right away when they're being abused. Because with the perhaps physical and sexual abuse comes the psychological abuse, which is the gaslighting, which is all of the things I just mentioned. So people don't actually know they're being abused because they get abused, but then they get gas lit about it.

Alyssa Scolari [39:26]:

And then they are made to feel like the abuse is their fault. So they don't leave. If anything, they feel even more and more worthless, therefore are feeling more and more grateful that their abuser still loves them. So they're more likely to stay. Gaslighting causes us to constantly make excuses for other people. And ultimately, it just robs us of hope and joy. And it robs us of confidence and our ability to feel competent in any area of our lives. And if you've experienced medical gaslighting, that can lead to physical issues. If you're constantly told that your pain is in your head and you start to believe it to, and then you completely ignore your symptoms, you could be sicker and sicker and sicker. So the impact of gaslighting is profound and it is a type of psychological trauma that I wish on absolutely nobody, but the sad truth of the matter is that millions and millions of us have experienced this.

Alyssa Scolari [40:38]:

Now, obviously this is something that's really important to work through in therapy. And this is part of why in addition to talk therapy, I also recommend a lot of like body work because part of reversing the harm that was done is learning how to trust your body again. And once you learn how to trust your body again, and once you learn how to have more faith in yourself, you are less likely to be gaslit in the future. I know for myself, the more confidence that I've gained and I've gained a lot of confidence over the last several years, I really don't take a whole lot of shit from people. I can absolutely call out when I'm being gaslit. It's a little bit harder for me when it comes to the medical gas lighting.

Alyssa Scolari [41:24]:

And I think that just goes along with because I live in a fat body, I'm constantly stigmatized and I'm constantly made to feel like all of my issues are my fault and are a result of my weight, which is not true, but it's a little bit harder for me in terms of medical gaslighting. But in other parts, I am really able to like identify the second I'm being gaslit. I call it what it is and in doing so I don't necessarily absorb that abuse. I more or less let it bounce off of me. And therefore I'm not harmed by it. I might be hurt, but I'm not going to have psychological harm that's going to last for years or decades to come.

Alyssa Scolari [42:11]:

So therapy is so important. Body work is so important. I hope that this episode was helpful and enlightening. Again, I will put the website that I used for today's episode in the show notes. So feel free to check it out and to read a little bit more about it. But I really think it's useful for people to know exactly what gaslighting is, so that A, we are not overusing it or oversimplifying it or using it inappropriately, but B and even more importantly, that we are able to see when it's happening for ourselves, because when we can identify it, like I said, we are less likely to absorb it and therefore less likely to be harmed by it.

Alyssa Scolari [42:55]:

So thank you for listening. If you like what you hear today, and you like the podcast, it would mean the world if you could please go and leave a review or a rating. Reviews really help us grow. And the more we grow, the more people see the podcast and listen to the podcast, and the more people can receive free mental health, trauma focused education, which is always the goal. If you are able to support the podcast financially, that would be amazing too. We do have a Patreon. Please go to the show notes and you can see the Patreon there where you can contribute brilliant. And any amount that you would like, you can either do it on a monthly basis, or you can do a one off contribution. Whatever you choose to do would be absolutely amazing. Or you can just head on over to the website at lightaftertrauma.com and the Patreon will be there as well, along with all of the episodes and the transcripts for the episodes.

Alyssa Scolari [43:57]:

So with that, this is the last episode before I head into my surgery. I do not know what to expect, but I will see you on the other side and please know that I love you all and I am holding you in the light.

Alyssa Scolari [44:14]:

Thanks for listening everyone. For more information, please head over to lightaftertrauma.com or you can also follow us on social media. On Instagram, we are @lightaftertrauma. And on Twitter, it is @lightafterpod. Lastly, please head over to patreon.com/lightaftertrauma to support our show. We are asking for $5 a month, which is the equivalent to a cup of coffee at Starbucks. So please head on over again. That's patreon.com/lightaftertrauma. Thank you. And we appreciate your support.

[Singing].

Kristen Donnelly (MSW, M.Div, PhD) is a TEDx speaker, international empathy educator, and researcher with two decades of experience in helping people understand the beauty in difference and the power in inclusivity. In this episode, Kristen warns of some of the dangers of the tolerance framework when it comes to inclusion and diversity. She offers a different alternative to this framework – one that will ultimately help us as a society to have better, more effective conversations and spew less violence and hatred toward one another.

Kristen Donnelly TED Talk 1 Kristen Donnelly TED Talk 2

Check out the Light After Trauma website for transcripts, other episodes, Alyssa's guest appearances, and more at: www.lightaftertrauma.com

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We need your help! We want to continue to make great content that can help countless trauma warriors on their journey to recovery. So, please help us in supporting the podcast by becoming a recurring patron of the show via Patreon. Every bit helps!

Transcript

Alyssa Scolari [00:23]:

Hey friends. Welcome back to another episode of the Light After Trauma podcast. I'm your host, Alyssa Scolari. We have a guest episode today. Before that, just some housekeeping things, if you haven't done so already, please go check out our Instagram page. The handle is @lightaftertrauma. If you haven't done so already, please go check out our Instagram. It is Light After Trauma, just the name of the podcast. We've got some awesome things lined up for you there.

Alyssa Scolari [00:54]:

Just an FYI. I do have somebody running that page so if you reach out, I will do my best to get back to you. I love connecting with you, but just give me some time and know that if you see that somebody's active, please don't feel like I'm ignoring you. It's not always me. I do hire somebody to run that page. She does an amazing job. Please go check us out.

Alyssa Scolari [01:20]:

Also, if you haven't done so already, please leave a review or a rating for the podcast. That helps this podcast to grow so much and reach more people. The goal, as I've always said, is to be able to provide people with some type of free access to mental health information. While this isn't exactly mental health treatment, it's information, it's connection, it's inspiration, and especially in this world that we are living in right now, we need it more than ever. If you haven't done so already, please leave a rating overview for the podcast. It would mean the world to me.

Alyssa Scolari [02:01]:

Lastly, we do have a Patreon for the podcast. I know I've mentioned here before, you can please look at the show notes for access to the Patreon. If you are able to contribute even the smallest amount, that would be so, so helpful. Again, it does take quite a bit of money to run the podcast, and I'm not complaining about that. I am fortunate enough to be able to have the money to do so and to kind of keep up with it, but it is sort of becoming more and more difficult to keep up with as time goes on because it's taking a lot more time as we do more things with the podcast and becoming more expensive. Any amount that you can give will would be amazing and we would be so, so appreciative.

Alyssa Scolari [02:47]:

That being said, today I'm going to introduce our guest. This is Kristen Donnelly, who is an MSW. She is a master's degree in social work and she is a PhD. She is also a Ted X speaker, a international empathy educator, and a researcher with two decades of experience in helping people understand the beauty, indifference and the power in inclusivity. She's one of the good doctors of Abby Research, COO of their parent company and an unapologetic nerd for stories of change. Kristen lives outside of Philadelphia with her husband, where they are surrounded by piles of books and several video game consoles.

Alyssa Scolari [03:29]:

Hi, Kristen. Welcome. How are you?

Kristen Donnelly [03:31]:

I am fantastic. How are you doing ma'am?

Alyssa Scolari [03:34]:

I am good. I was reading your bio and felt like I was reading about myself for a second, not just because we're from the same area, but the piles of books and video game consoles. Do you have a favorite game you're playing right now?

Kristen Donnelly [03:53]:

Well, I'm perpetually playing Stardew Valley. I'm just always in a play through of Stardew Valley, but in anticipation of season two of the Witcher coming back out, I'm doing a replay of Witcher three.

Alyssa Scolari [04:07]:

Nice. Nice. I mean, it's me. It's 1000% percent me. I am on a huge Kingdom Hearts kicker right now.

Kristen Donnelly [04:17]:

I haven't dived into that one yet. I own it. I just haven't started because I'm not home enough to devote my time to a whole new world.

Alyssa Scolari [04:26]:

Yes. That's exactly what it is. It's a whole new world. I mean, I'm addicted. I mean, I can't stop. I was like, I was reading this bio and I was like, "Oh," I'm talking about myself for right now playing video games until 11:00 last night when I needed to go to bed. But I digress.

Alyssa Scolari [04:47]:

So welcome. It's so nice to have you on the show. Today we're talking a little bit, well, little bit, lot a bit, about this concept of tolerance. As I mentioned when I was reading Kristen's bio, she is a TEDx speaker. Please head over to the show notes. All of the YouTube links to the TEDx talks will be in there. You absolutely want to hear them. They are phenomenal. We're talking about tolerance today. Can you actually just first elaborate if you're comfortable with sharing on how you even came to be in this field and be passionate about these topics?

Kristen Donnelly [05:25]:

That is the question I get the most and I'm still not good at saying it succinctly. We'll give this another go. In a certain way I've been having these conversations for most of my life. My family bought a company in 1991 when I was seven years old. It is in a really under-resourced area of Philadelphia. My dad's goal was to bring jobs back to that neighborhood. It's a manufacturing company and we make dye. You've used our dye, you just don't know it. But we make this stain that they use in the pap smear to see if people have cancer. We make the dye for the outside of sutures, the black sutures. It's a lot of stuff. We make the color of Advil, some stuff like that.

Kristen Donnelly [06:10]:

But the point was that there was always more job opportunities for people who "don't fit". Over the years, a lot of our folks have been in recovery. They've been just out of prison, they're illiterate, they're not high school graduates, but we just deeply believe that that doesn't mean that they're not employable people and that they're not people and they're not worth our investment and our belief. This evolved into a mission statement, which is that our family is called to impact lives and create wealth. The wealth is emotional, psychosocial, economic, physical, spiritual, everything.

Kristen Donnelly [06:53]:

How can we impact lives and create wealth all the time? Because that question has been at the forefront of my life, this little white girl raised in suburban Philadelphia was never allowed really because of where we owned the factory and the things that we were facing all the time and the stuff, my dad didn't really, he didn't shove in our faces, but he didn't shelter us either. We were always raised to understand that where are born determines a lot of how you live, that a lot of choices are taken away from you before you even take your first breath. What does that look like and how can those of us who have privilege leverage that privilege for the power of others?

Kristen Donnelly [07:32]:

For us, it's a very faith based conversation, but I've learned that it's both faith based and not. It's how to human in a specific way. Very honestly, this is kind of how my thought processes have been going forever. I was the kid in college that when somebody would be like, "Well, we really need to have more diversity in our college experience," and I'm looking around and I'm like, "Okay, what you mean is racial diversity and I don't disagree, but you've got to stop using that word because I'm one of four kids at this college from above the Mason Dixon line. I bring some diversity." 80% of people here are on financial aid. That's some diversity for the 20% that aren't, that are bringing that in. It's a college full of people who grew up as third culture missionary kids. That's a lot of diversity. Why aren't we bringing that in?

Kristen Donnelly [08:20]:

But everybody was so focused on the fact that we were largely homogeneously white, that there was no appreciation of other values of diversity. I kept getting bugged by that throughout the '90s and early ots and just I was always the obnoxious kid that was on student government or anything else. I was like, "We've just got to stop using that word." But I hadn't figured out how to convince people of my argument.

Kristen Donnelly [08:51]:

It really ticked for me when I was sitting in a youth rally in Belfast, Northern Ireland in 2006 and Northern Ireland's a really complicated place with a lot of tension, both violent and emotional, historically. They used the word tolerance. You have to learn to tolerate each other. It hit me like a ton of bricks, but that was actually one of the rudest things we could do, that tolerance is simply acknowledging that someone else is allowed to exist, that somebody else is alive because it is illegal to kill you. It does not encourage relationship. It does not encourage curiosity. It really doesn't even acknowledge their humanity. It just acknowledges their existence.

Kristen Donnelly [09:37]:

For about 10 years, I chewed on it. I did as much research. I'm a nerd. I have a lot of grad degrees. I did as much research as I could into really, truly what does diversity mean ecologically, spiritually, everything. What does diversity actually mean? The more I looked into it, the more I realized that tolerance is garbage and tolerance, that this is what the '90s came to, like those coexist bumper stickers drive me up an absolute wall now, that ...

Alyssa Scolari [10:07]:

The coexist bumper stickers?

Kristen Donnelly [10:09]:

Yeah. Because this is what we were giving to other people, all we were told as kids, so I'm an elder millennial, I'm the Oregon trail generation. What we were taught was to tolerate each other. We were never actually taught how to have conversations with each other. We were never taught about how to appreciate that someone else's way to be human is just as valid as yours. We were just taught to tolerate.

Kristen Donnelly [10:37]:

I looked around the planet and I realized, I started tracing some things back and I was like, "Okay, a lot of this is because we were taught to tolerate each other." There's so much pearl collecting these days over, we don't know how to have conversations. I'm like, "Well, we never really did."

Alyssa Scolari [10:52]:

We never did. Never.

Kristen Donnelly [10:54]:

There was pockets of humanity, especially in small towns where you had to get along, whether you wanted to or not. There was a lot of force proximity. That's still not inclusivity. That's just forced proximity. We've done all this. We've got 2,000, 4,900,000 years of human history, depending on who you talk to. We've never done this well. But we have all the science in front of us that shows we've never done it well on a large scale. We've done it well in interpersonal relationships.

Kristen Donnelly [11:24]:

But with the continuing calls to walk away from your family if they didn't agree with you politically, or to walk away to assume who somebody was based on what they retweeted on Twitter, I just started getting really nervous that all we were going to do was keep fracturing even further and we were going to calcify into those fractures.

Kristen Donnelly [11:46]:

When it came time to do my first TEDx application, this was the idea I knew, if I shared no other idea for the rest of my life, this is the one I wanted to present, which is that we have to stop tolerating each other and we have to start welcoming each other instead. That doesn't mean being in a relationship with toxic people. It does not mean being in relationship with people who deny your humanity, but it means getting to know them a little bit first to know whether they actually do or not or they just retweeted something dumb. It's saying, right now as you and I talk, there's so much kerfuffle over JK Rowling.

Alyssa Scolari [12:22]:

So much.

Kristen Donnelly [12:25]:

I absolutely believe that her beliefs around trans people are damaging and murderous and actually violent. The calls for absolutely every person to completely abandon Harry Potter is also not productive or helpful, especially with all the research that we have that reading Harry Potter indicates that children will be more empathetic and open to difference than if they didn't.

Kristen Donnelly [12:52]:

I think for me, I mean, the internet is a fear machine. We carry around fear machines in our pockets.

Alyssa Scolari [12:58]:

Yes.

Kristen Donnelly [12:59]:

If we take JK Rowling, is she a trans exclusionary, radical feminist? She absolutely is. She's even kind of claimed that. She's not ashamed of it anymore. She's gotten really loud about it. She gives a lot of money to those causes. This isn't a secret, but it does not mean that somebody who still finds a lot of identity as a Hufflepuff is also a turf. It might, but it doesn't, there's not ... Correlation does not equal causation. We can have conversations with each other to then determine the boundaries we have to set rather than setting those boundaries before the conversation all the time.

Kristen Donnelly [13:37]:

Really honestly, what I'm advocating for is that humans are messy and so life is messy and we just need to allow each other to be messy instead of these kind of very black and white boundaries that a lot of us have instinctually begun to draw because the fear machines told us to.

Speaker 2 [14:01]:

Yes. I mean, my brain jumps right into this cancel culture. There's such a push to, like you said, a cancel her and four people who are Harry Potter fans like myself, with a slew of Harry Potter pop figures sitting on the shelf behind me, harry Potter saved me in my childhood. I say that, I'll tell anybody that. I say that all the time. I found so much comfort and solace in those books. I find it to be so ... I'm just very unsettled by this idea that we cancel her but then we also cancel every single person who continues to support Harry Potter in any way, shape or form.

Speaker 2 [14:51]:

I guess the question I have for you is how do you propose, what happens instead? What does that idea of being more welcoming and allowing people to be messy, how do we find that middle ground between holding folks accountable, but also allowing them space to be messy?

Kristen Donnelly [15:12]:

In terms of, so let's keep going with this Harry Potter, because it's actually a pretty good one. Today on Tumblr, I saw somebody say, "Your love of Harry Potter is not more important than somebody's else's life." That statement to me is an encapsulation of a lot of false assumptions.

Kristen Donnelly [15:27]:

First of all, that my love of Harry Potter does not mean that I loathe that trans folks are being murdered. My love of Harry Potter does not mean that I do not believe that trans women are women and trans men are men. It does not mean a lot of things. We can draw the boundary and say that JK Rowling is a turf. If I make the choice to not go and see any of the new movies, for instance, because she is a producer on those, and so that puts money in her pocket. I don't need those stories anymore.

Kristen Donnelly [16:01]:

Grindelwald isn't part of this for me. I don't need to continue to explore new ways that she wants to tell stories. But that seven book cannon is incredibly sacred to my 20s and to erase them from my 20s is doing some retroactive work that isn't kind to me or who I was then or anything else. All that being said, I think we can cancel JK Rowling. I think we certainly can. I think we can stop giving her platforms.

Kristen Donnelly [16:38]:

However, the problem is that we will always be giving her money. This is the same thing in which Disney is a problematic corporation and they are terrible in so many ways and beautiful in so many others. She appears more clear cut because she's one person.

Alyssa Scolari [16:58]:

She's very out and loud about her [crosstalk 00:17:01].

Kristen Donnelly [17:01]:

And obnoxious. She's obnoxious about it.

Alyssa Scolari [17:02]:

She is.

Kristen Donnelly [17:03]:

She is. I have no problem calling a spade a spade here, as they say in the UK. She's a problem. She's a problem. But she is not the only one who makes money on Harry Potter. She is not the only one who is caught up in this universe. She is not the only one. She is an industry. She is a corporation.

Kristen Donnelly [17:25]:

The first thing that I always say and my business partner, Dr. Erin, and I talk about this a lot, is that you can love problematic things as long as you understand that they're problematic.

Alyssa Scolari [17:35]:

That's a really interesting concept.

Kristen Donnelly [17:37]:

Part of adulthood is saying, "Oh my God, I love Harry Potter so much, but I look back now and it's hella racist. The way that she did sexuality is weird because now we know why, and retroactively conning Dumbledore sexuality was kind of shady." We can say all of these things.

Alyssa Scolari [17:58]:

The actually caused so much trauma for the students that he terrorized like Snape.

Kristen Donnelly [18:04]:

I can still say that all truth is truth and all the goodness is goodness. Hermione is one of the ways I learned that it was okay to be smart. All of those things can be true at once. It can be true that she gave us a definitive world that literally saved the lives of millions of children around the world and that she advocates personally for the exclusion of a marginalized group, both of those things can be true and they are true. It sucks.

Kristen Donnelly [18:47]:

Some of it is saying things like I absolutely love sports. I love sports so much. I watch sports all the time. Would I love to also tell you that I struggled to watch the NFL because I've read the research on CTE? Absolutely. Is football something that I find a lot of joy in and that kills people? Yeah, both those things are true.

Kristen Donnelly [19:09]:

Really, to me, one of the examples of this not going well is that we can't have an honest conversation in the United States about guns because people who love guns can't accept that what is also true is that they kill children. You can have a deep love of this culture that I personally do not understand. This can be a part of your identity, but I need you to also accept that they're too easily accessible and that mentally ill folks can shoot up rooms full of kindergartners. I need you to hold those two things as true and then we can start having conversations.

Alyssa Scolari [19:47]:

Yes.

Kristen Donnelly [19:49]:

We've been under this illusion as humans that things are simple, that things are supposed to be easy, that as we get older, things are more clear cut. No pals. As we get older, they get messier. We all still have this myth that at some point in life it was easy.

Alyssa Scolari [20:09]:

Yes.

Kristen Donnelly [20:10]:

It wasn't.

Alyssa Scolari [20:11]:

Back in the day, quote unquote.

Kristen Donnelly [20:13]:

There is no day.

Alyssa Scolari [20:14]:

There is no ...

Kristen Donnelly [20:14]:

I mean, there's a great Dane Cook joke where he says like, "Back in the day," which was a Wednesday, by the way.

Alyssa Scolari [20:19]:

I love Dane Cook.

Kristen Donnelly [20:21]:

Whenever somebody says, I'm like, he's terribly problematic, but he had some really good jokes.

Alyssa Scolari [20:27]:

He's horrible and I can't listen to him anymore, but he had some amazing jokes.

Kristen Donnelly [20:33]:

All of those things are true. Tina Faye has some spaces to grow and she is not good at being an inclusive comic. But Liz Lemon is one of the most profound comic characters we've ever had. All these things are true all at once. But we got to start being honest. We got to stop being scared to say the messy things because canceling, I'll say this, canceling shouldn't be a knee jerk reaction. It should be a consequence of a lot of actions.

Kristen Donnelly [21:08]:

I can't remember. It was like, so there's a Broadway star who I really like who came out and said that she was anti-vaccine and that she wouldn't be getting vaccinations. A lot of her co-stars, which they have every right to do, were kind of like, "Cool. I'm never working with you again. I'm not ever doing this again." But I watched the Broadway community immediately be like, "We're canceling her." I was like, "Okay, that seems quick."

Kristen Donnelly [21:32]:

Then people started to kind of come with other receipts of other things she's been doing. Like, guys, this is emblematic. This isn't one thing she did. This is emblematic of an attitude of how she's treated other people. This is kind of, she's shown us who she is and now we can believe her.

Alyssa Scolari [21:50]:

Right. It's been a buildup, not like ...

Kristen Donnelly [21:54]:

Brett Kavanaugh showed us who he was. We should have believed Dr. Ford.

Alyssa Scolari [21:59]:

Yes.

Kristen Donnelly [22:02]:

Larry Nassar showed us who he was and we needed to believe the gymnasts. When people show you who they are, we need to believe them, as Dr. Angelou said. When people do something dumb on Twitter in the year of our Lord 2012, and we unearth it, we need to see a bigger context.

Kristen Donnelly [22:20]:

That's kind of how I would say it. It needs to be a much more messy conversation. I should also say everybody's decision on this, your mileage may vary. If as you're listening to this, your choice is that you cannot engage with Harry Potter, rock on, mazel tov. You do you? That is fine. Zero judgment from me. Where it becomes is when you begin to shame me for my choices in how I'm going to interact with this very messy, very uncomfortable, absolutely nobody wins here situation.

Alyssa Scolari [22:51]:

Yes. Because that's where so much of the chaos happens is that point where it's like, well, why do you still have this Harry Potter poster? What does that make you? You're transphobic and you're actively contributing to the murder of so many people. That's where I see so much tension, so much tension.

Kristen Donnelly [23:14]:

I think, I mean, so some of the ways we vote is with our money and so I don't give more money to Harry Potter stuff. I have all the stuff that I'm going to have. I'm still going to read the books. I own them. I bought them already. What good is it going to do? But will I advocate for children to read it? I don't know, probably not. My niece and nephew are two. That'll be their parents' decision. Whatever.

Kristen Donnelly [23:35]:

But what I can do is have the really hard conversations with a lot of people in my life who are like, "But I'm not sure if trans girls should be in athletics." I'm like, "Okay, let's have that conversation." I can do the things where somebody says, "I'm not sure if somebody really knows they're trans at five," and I can say, "Okay, valid. It's something that I was confused about for a long time too." Do I think that I, as an outside stranger, have any right to say anything about that child's life? I do not. But I've loved a lot of trans folks who tell me they knew as early as five. I want to listen to them.

Kristen Donnelly [24:10]:

Here's the messiness. Guess what guys? This is all really new. This is all really new. Health insurances still aren't paying for surgeries. This is all still really new. We're going to figure this out together, but let's start by acknowledging the humanity in that person. Let's start by acknowledging that whatever they're going through is hard. Let's start by acknowledging that everybody wants to be heard, seen, and safe. Fundamentals of human life.

Alyssa Scolari [24:36]:

Yes.

Kristen Donnelly [24:36]:

Let's start there and then if it gets messy after that, I mean, it will, let's just assume it will.

Alyssa Scolari [24:41]:

Right. It always does almost.

Kristen Donnelly [24:43]:

It has to.

Alyssa Scolari [24:44]:

Got to for any real effective change to be made.

Kristen Donnelly [24:48]:

Or for any real effective relationships. Think about the people that you actually claim as deep and true relationships. Are any of those relationships clear cut? They're all messy. I love my husband and would like to throw him off a bridge a lot of days.

Alyssa Scolari [25:02]:

Yes. Yes.

Kristen Donnelly [25:03]:

And not just because of dumb little habits. There are fundamental things about each other that as we've grown, we've had to continue to make that covenant. We didn't just make a covenant 10 years ago. We make it all the time. Every relationship is like that. I hear that parenting is kind of hard. Just a rumor.

Speaker 2 [25:24]:

Right. It's just in the rumor mill. I've heard it [crosstalk 00:25:27].

Kristen Donnelly [25:26]:

It's in the rumor mill. It sounds really hard and it sounds like there are a lot of parents who don't like their kids. There's a lot of kids who don't like their parents.

Speaker 2 [25:35]:

Yes.

Kristen Donnelly [25:36]:

It's because humans are messy.

Alyssa Scolari [25:37]:

Yes. I think that's part of the reason why I love being a therapist so much is because I get to hold space for that messiness. I love working with kids because then I also get to work with their families and then it becomes so much more mess. I mean, that's where the beauty happens and that's where I think so much gets heard because at the end of the day, no matter where you are and no matter what your beliefs are, as you said, the goal is to be seen, heard and understood and safe. Exactly. Exactly.

Alyssa Scolari [26:14]:

I love that. I mean, I love it so much and I think it's kind of like you said, I think it might be, again, for the listeners out there, this concept is like, it's very new in itself and it's very different than what I think we see on the internet a lot of days, but it's so important. If you get nothing else out of this, I want you to just take it and I want you to chew on it. I want you to think about it because it's really important.

Alyssa Scolari [26:42]:

I understand lots of things might be popping up for you about, well, how can we just allow this to happen and how can we just allow that to happen? But this is really the meat of how we need to ... This is it. This is the framework that we need to be adopting for conversations to be had, for relationships to be had, and for all of the hatred in this world to just go away a little tiny bit.

Kristen Donnelly [27:13]:

I think it's ... Erin and I are empathy educators because we say, and that's kind of how we frame ourselves because empathy isn't about emotions. It's about understanding. I will say since I started practicing empathy as my primary motivator through the world, as the mindset and the framework I used to move through the world, I'm a lot calmer. Even my doom scrolling doesn't get me as anxious as it used to.

Alyssa Scolari [27:48]:

Yes.

Kristen Donnelly [27:48]:

Nothing feels as overwhelming because in a certain way I can really quickly, I can make some decisions quicker. I can say, "That behavior I know is a hard boundary for me. Somebody engaging in that behavior is somebody I cannot be in authentic relationship with. They are still a human. They are entitled to all of that. I cannot be in relationship with them." If I'm ever put into a position where I need to work with them, one on one, one of the questions that we will need to talk about is that behavior.

Alyssa Scolari [28:26]:

Yes.

Kristen Donnelly [28:27]:

That's it. It's that clear cut. Around vaccines, I have a lot of immunocompromised people in my family. I was first in line to get the vaccine, first in line to get the booster. I'm just pump me with whatever you want. I don't care. I'm not a physical scientist. Everyone on the planet is saying this is a good idea. Cool. I'm in line. Yet we all are doing life with a lot of people that see these vaccines very differently. When I discover that somebody is not vaccinated, my policy very quickly becomes I cannot be within six feet of you without you wearing a mask.

Alyssa Scolari [29:08]:

That's your hard [crosstalk 00:29:09].

Kristen Donnelly [29:09]:

If that is not something that you are willing to do, we will need to interact on Zoom. That's not tolerating them. That's not saying that they're not a good person or they're evil. That's simply saying you have made choices and I have made choices and this is the intersection of our choices.

Alyssa Scolari [29:32]:

Exactly.

Kristen Donnelly [29:34]:

Once I made that kind of policy in my life, and that's the phrase I use a lot, it's my policy, it's my policy to do this.

Alyssa Scolari [29:42]:

I love it.

Kristen Donnelly [29:43]:

Life got a lot less stressful. It just did. I get more curious. My question now a lot is like, "Well, I'd look to know why aren't you getting vaccinated?" Not judgy. Legitimately, I'm just really curious, what is your intersection of these decisions here?

Alyssa Scolari [30:00]:

Yes. The curiosity piece is so important. It's so important.

Kristen Donnelly [30:05]:

It's what changes the world. It's the only thing that ever has. No one also changes, I'll say this to you and you know this as a therapist, absolutely nobody changes their world view through shaming or statistics.

Alyssa Scolari [30:16]:

Thank you. I also would like to add that nobody changes their world view or their opinion on anything because of a fight on the internet.

Kristen Donnelly [30:26]:

Absolutely not. They might change their behavior because of shaming or statistics.

Alyssa Scolari [30:30]:

Exactly.

Kristen Donnelly [30:31]:

But as a therapist and as a social worker and as an empathy educator, I'm not looking to change behaviors.

Alyssa Scolari [30:39]:

No.

Kristen Donnelly [30:40]:

I'm looking to change world views and I'm to change how people move through the planet and that never changes through shaming, statistics or being yelled at on the internet.

Alyssa Scolari [30:48]:

Yes.

Kristen Donnelly [30:49]:

It just doesn't.

Alyssa Scolari [30:50]:

Yes.

Kristen Donnelly [30:53]:

It just doesn't. Erin and I have a YouTube channel and the comments we get sometimes are hilarious, where somebody's really coming for us and we're like, "Okay, dude." We want to respond back with Taylor Swift gifts and be like, "You need to calm down, man. You are bringing a lot of anger to a conversation that we are bringing zero anger to."

Alyssa Scolari [31:11]:

Relax, breath.

Kristen Donnelly [31:12]:

Do you need a hug? Do you need a puppy? Do you need a glass of water? What do you need in this moment because yelling at us isn't going to fix it.

Alyssa Scolari [31:21]:

Yes. Yes. Which is typically always, that's kind of my response. So many people will be like, "How do you work with people who have such differences? How do you work with people who refuse to get vaccinated?" It's just like, "Because I want to understand."

Kristen Donnelly [31:41]:

We have to.

Alyssa Scolari [31:41]:

We have to. If we don't understand than we are making no progress.

Kristen Donnelly [31:49]:

I respect that for some people, this is all overwhelming.

Alyssa Scolari [31:52]:

Absolutely.

Kristen Donnelly [31:53]:

The idea of trying to get to know new people or new ideas is really hard. We get the question like where should I start? Our answer is that we live in such a beautiful time of facilitated curiosity, start with a Netflix show. There is a really great documentary on Netflix right now called Crip Camp.

Alyssa Scolari [32:14]:

What is it?

Kristen Donnelly [32:15]:

Crip Camp.

Alyssa Scolari [32:16]:

I haven't heard of it.

Kristen Donnelly [32:17]:

It is about the foundations of the Americans with disabilities movement. Statistically, we'll bet that you don't know that whoever's listening to this within sound of my voice might not know somebody who is affected by the ADA Act. But spoiler alert, if you have any sort of mental health issue, you are because mental health is included in the ADA. It's a great documentary. It was Oscar nominated. It's an hour and a half of your life.

Alyssa Scolari [32:47]:

I've not heard of it.

Kristen Donnelly [32:52]:

That's the thing. You don't know where to start. This is all so overwhelming. Pick a thing.

Alyssa Scolari [32:57]:

One thing.

Kristen Donnelly [32:59]:

Pick a thing. Do the one thing. Watch a documentary, listen to a podcast, go to a cultural festival in your town and sit. Ask a question. Go to a restaurant where you can't pronounce the food and fumble your way through it. They're used to it. I promise.

Alyssa Scolari [33:19]:

Yes. They're so used to it.

Kristen Donnelly [33:23]:

Pick a thing.

Alyssa Scolari [33:24]:

Pick a thing. Pick a thing.

Kristen Donnelly [33:27]:

Pick a thing. There's no shame in not knowing unless you actively choose to ignore.

Alyssa Scolari [33:34]:

Yes. That is dangerous. That is dangerous. Well, thank you so, so much. I mean, this is like, I'm so passionate about this topic, because it absolutely pushes us outside of our comfort zone, especially as millennials. We were literally not taught to ask questions. We were taught to just truly coexist, which doesn't help. Like you said, it just fosters greater separation.

Alyssa Scolari [34:03]:

I really love this topic. I'm all about exploring uncomfortable things. This is one topic that I can see that could make people feel some kind of uncomfortable things, but that's [crosstalk 00:34:16].

Kristen Donnelly [34:16]:

For sure.

Alyssa Scolari [34:18]:

Thank you. Thank you for sharing. Thank you for coming on the show today. I really appreciate it.

Kristen Donnelly [34:24]:

My pleasure. Thanks for all you're doing.

Alyssa Scolari [34:27]:

Thanks for listening everyone. For more information, please head over to lightaftertrauma.com or you can also follow us on social media, on Instagram. We are @lightaftertrauma. On Twitter, it is at Light After Pod.

Alyssa Scolari [34:43]:

Lastly, please head over to patrion.com/lightaftertrauma. To support our show, we are asking for $5 a month, which is the equivalent to a cup of coffee at Starbucks. Please head on over. Again, that's patrion.com/lightaftertrauma. Thank you and we appreciate your support.

Most of us live in a world that glorifies holding onto youth for as long as we can. As we get older, we are taught to be less excited about our birthdays, hide our true age, and reflect back on our younger years with envy. But it doesn't have to be that way! What if we can find joy and peace with every passing birthday? What if we learn to reject the notion that aging is bad and instead look at the beauty that comes with turning another year older?

Check out the Light After Trauma website for transcripts, other episodes, Alyssa's guest appearances, and more at: www.lightaftertrauma.com

Want to get more great content and interact with the show? Check us out on Instagram: @lightaftertrauma

We need your help! We want to continue to make great content that can help countless trauma warriors on their journey to recovery. So, please help us in supporting the podcast by becoming a recurring patron of the show via Patreon. Every bit helps!

Transcript

Alyssa Scolari [00:23]:

Welcome back to another episode of the Light After Trauma podcast. I'm your host, Alyssa Scolari. Happy to be here again for another episode. We are now in the new year, 2022. And I am excited for everything that we have ahead. I cannot believe this is the second year of the podcast running and it still feels like I just started it. So honestly, every episode is just such a gift.

Alyssa Scolari [00:48]:

I know that every episode I always say I'm so happy to be here, but it's true. I am so happy to be here. Now, if you haven't done so yet, please be sure to give us a follow on Instagram. Our handle is Light After Trauma. Have some really great posts and content there. Feel free to connect and reach out with me or reach out to me. Yeah, if you want to connect, that's a really great way to do so, is through my Instagram. Also, a reminder that we have a Patreon for the podcast that you can go ahead and find in the show notes.

Alyssa Scolari [01:20]:

If you are able to give even one, two, $3 a month, it would help so, so much to help keep this podcast running and to be able to continue to put out content for you guys. Does cost quite a bit to put this podcast together and get episodes for you every week. It runs about $800 a month. So thank you to the Patreons that we have so far. Appreciate you, love you so much. I love you all, whether you are able to give or not. At the end of the day, the goal is to be able to provide free mental health support for people who need it.

Alyssa Scolari [01:57]:

So if you can't, give no worries. But if you can, Hey, we'd really appreciate it. Even if it's just a one time thing and not a monthly thing. Whatever you can give goes such a long way in helping to ultimately keep this podcast running. And if you can't give financially, that is totally fine. If you still want to give, you can always do so by leaving a review for the podcast. Ratings and reviews are what help the podcast to grow and to get even more... To be seen by more people. And that is of course, the goal. We want as many people as possible to know that this type of support is available for them. So thank you.

Alyssa Scolari [02:42]:

On my end, on a personal note, I am hanging in there. I know many of you have reached out to give me well wishes. I unfortunately am just coming off of a seven day bender of absolute agony from the suspected endometriosis. Again, if this is all new to you my doctors are thinking that I have endometriosis. I have surgery scheduled for January 27th, and I'm really, really nervous because of the Omicron surge.

Alyssa Scolari [03:16]:

There's a possibility my surgery might get canceled. They've already canceled the first two weeks of January, all the surgeries have already been canceled. So if these numbers don't start to fall in terms of the cases, I am suspecting that my surgery is going to get canceled, which honestly, I can't even begin to process that. Because if you have listened to my episode, a few episodes ago, I did one about my struggle with endometriosis. And if you listened to it, then you know that it has been anything but easy. And this is by far the most difficult time of my life.

Alyssa Scolari [03:57]:

So I'm going to be absolutely devastated if it gets canceled and so beyond frustrated, because I have been in a ton of pain. I am so sick of doctors not taking my pain seriously. It's just been such a nightmare. So keep your fingers crossed and please send all of the well and the prayers and the healing vibes, because we need it. People really have been so good to us. I know that I, about a month ago or so, I'd say I put up that episode about my struggle with endometriosis. And I've been struggling for probably eight months and just have, haven't been ready to share.

Alyssa Scolari [04:42]:

And this past week, I also shared it on my personal social media to be able to ask for prayers and help and support. And everybody has been so good to me in terms of helping. And my in-laws have sent us gift cards for food. And people have just been really, really helpful because unfortunately I'm not really able to work a whole lot. I've had to cut down my work quite a bit because I'm just so sick right now. So there's a little update. We are hoping, wishing, praying that I am able to get my surgery in two and a half weeks.

Alyssa Scolari [05:27]:

Fingers crossed people, fingers crossed. And so today we're going to be talking about aging and getting older. And this topic is always relevant, but it's especially relevant for me because on Thursday, January 6th, I turned 30 and I launched into a new decade. Now, I've always been a big birthday girl, love birthdays, love my birthday, love other people's birthdays. My parents always made me feel really special during my birthday.

Alyssa Scolari [06:06]:

It was never something that was just looked over. So birthdays were pretty big for me. And I've never had a birthday that I just didn't want to sell until this year. And it's not because I was afraid of the number 30, because I really wasn't. In fact, I've actually been looking forward to 30 and embracing the new decade. I think because a lot of studies show that your thirties are the decade, which provide the most happiness. People report loving their thirties the most when they look back on their lives. But also, I don't know, I've just always felt like this was going to be a really, really great decade for me.

Alyssa Scolari [06:53]:

And I still feel that way, but when I tell you I was absolutely dreading my birthday. And I think it's because I never, in a million years could imagine that I would've turned 30 in such a state of being weak and fatigued and in pain. I was in pain pretty much all day on my birthday. And my quality of life is so poor. Because of my surgery, we really weren't able to go anywhere or do anything because we are isolating because we can't get COVID. I can't risk having my surgery be canceled. So we've been really just hanging out with just my husband and myself and our dogs.

Alyssa Scolari [07:43]:

And as a result, we really weren't able to do anything at all. And I was in pain all day because I had another flare for my, again, suspected endometriosis. The surgery will confirm. But I had another flare and I was in so much pain, screaming, throwing up for days on end. And then because of all of the intense pain, I have had stomach issues. And it's been pretty shitty. So I think for those who are reasons, I wasn't looking forward to my birthday. I wasn't ready for it.

Alyssa Scolari [08:23]:

It just, wasn't how I pictured turning 30. Honestly, we were planning on going on vacation for our birthdays. David's birthday is four days before mine. So his birthday's January second. And we were actually planning on waking up in Disney World. And that would've been a great way to celebrate 30, but instead I woke up in pain after barely sleeping all night. And as soon as I opened my eyes and saw that it was my birthday or remembered it was my birthday, I sobbed. And I pretty much cried all day long. And I've done a lot of reflecting.

Alyssa Scolari [09:11]:

And I think the emotion that came up the most for me was like I said, just grief over not being where I thought I would be in my life. I thought I would be so much better and healing and able to enjoy life. And right now, I'm kind of just surviving. But it got me thinking about how many people struggle, chronic illness aside, endometriosis aside, it really got me thinking about how many people struggle with getting older.

Alyssa Scolari [09:55]:

And listen, some of you might be listening to this and you're probably thinking, if you're not my age, then you're thinking one of two things. You are either younger than me, and you're thinking, holy shit, 30 is so old. Or you're older than me and you're thinking, what is she talking about, 30 is literally so young. So honestly, at the end of the day, it really doesn't matter how old you are because there are always going to be people that think you're old.

Alyssa Scolari [10:26]:

And then there are always going to be people that think you're young. Even when you're 70, talk to a 90 year old and they think you're a spring chicken. So aging is just, it's such a fascinating concept. And so many people get so stressed out over it. And I think, or at least I've witnessed in my, both my personal recovery and my professional life. My professional career, I've witnessed trauma survivors having a much more goal time with aging. And I think that this is partially because we already feel like we've lost so much time due to our trauma.

Alyssa Scolari [11:09]:

So much has already been taken from us that growing older, we're, no, where is the time going? And the clock is running out. And we're also afraid to grow older because we've already been so traumatized that we don't know what trauma waits for us in the future, because unfortunately, life can be full of traumatic moments. Sometimes life is full of amazing and incredible moments as well, but life can also be full of traumatic moments. And I think that's also part of the reason people get so afraid, trauma survivors in particular. But as a whole, society really has an issue with aging.

Alyssa Scolari [11:55]:

And whether you have a trauma history or not, all of that aside, it's partially, and mostly because of how much we glorify youth. And I won't even say glorify, we obsess. We, dare I say, fetishize it. And I am using that word because I believe that we do. I've seen it, right? Especially when it comes to women. Right, men get older and we talk about having... The trendy thing is having a hot dad bod. But women aren't called sexy for their mom bods. No men are called sexy, right? George Clooney, is how old is he?

Alyssa Scolari [12:45]:

But he's the sexiest man alive. But how often do we see older women being called sexy? We really don't. So there's definitely a huge bias there when it comes to men versus women. Women are definitely not allowed to age. Women are expected to be, and this is why I say fetishize, because women are expected to sort of look like a pre-pubescent girl at all times, which is no fat on their bodies, really narrow hips, zero body hair whatsoever.

Alyssa Scolari [13:22]:

Things like that. Women are expected to have these features that we only really have pre-puberty. So that's definitely a huge part of it. Our society is obsessed with youth and chasing youth. And the ageism is real. And I don't feel like ageism gets nearly enough attention. It is rooted in almost everything. Ageism doesn't get attention because there are other issues happening, right? I think a lot of people feel like, well, we have bigger fish to fry. But we really don't do a very good job at taking care of our elderly.

Alyssa Scolari [14:03]:

In other cultures, in many cultures, getting old is a privilege. Being old is something to celebrate, but not necessarily in, definitely not in the United States. Not sure what country you are in when you're listening to this. I live in the United States and getting old is just something to freak out about all of the time. And I hear it everywhere I go. People are, especially from this past birthday that I had. People will text me and be, "Oh my God, can you believe you're 30? When did you get that old?"

Alyssa Scolari [14:43]:

Or, "Has the real world set in for you?" Or just things like that, that sort of hint at this fact that I should be anxious or worried about being 30 or people will always say, "Ugh." this is one of my favorites, right? "Don't get old kid. Don't get old." People would say that to me all the time or another personal favorite. And this is something that I find parents often say to their children, not all parents, but a lot of parents say, "You don't know how good you have it as a kid."

Alyssa Scolari [15:21]:

And again, right? We are glorifying childhood. But even in that sentence alone, we are telling children and we are telling people that getting older is a horrible thing. Being older is a horrible thing. Honestly, though, I don't see it that way. You could not pay me to be a kid again. And it's not because of my trauma history. I mean, maybe it is on some subconscious level, but I don't really think it is. Look at how hard it is to be a kid. You really don't know anything about the world.

Alyssa Scolari [16:00]:

You're dependent on everybody. You have to go to school every single day. You got to wake up early. You have to go to school and you have to sit there and you have to listen to shit that you probably don't like. Could you imagine as an adult listening to this, having to go to social studies class every day, if you absolutely hate social studies or geometry class? Fuck no. Kids have to sit there all day. Then they have to come home. Then they have to do hours worth of homework.

Alyssa Scolari [16:29]:

And I'm referring to, I guess, maybe teenagers, but they also have to figure out where they fit in, in the social jungle that is high school or middle school or even elementary school. Because elementary school is no walk in the park these days either. With social media kids know way, way more. They're very advanced and bullying starts at a really young age. Kids have to figure all of this out. And they care so much about what other people think. It is a really hard thing to be a kid. I am loving being an adult, right? Yes. I have to make my own money. I can't depend on anybody for anything.

Alyssa Scolari [17:13]:

But with that also comes this sense of freedom and excitement that my life is mine to make. Yes, it's scary. But I'm the one in control here for the most part. Obviously, the universe is in control, but I have much more of a say in how my life goes. I don't have to see people I don't like. I don't have to spend time with people I don't like. I can buy what I want. I can go where I want. If I'm having a bad day, I can get in the car and leave. Kids can't do that. So you couldn't pay me to go back and be a kid. It was a nightmare to be a child.

Alyssa Scolari [17:51]:

And with every year that I've gotten older, I have appreciated myself more and more and more. And I have given less and less of a shit about what other people think. I trust myself more. I become better able to manage my emotions instead of lashing out at people. I become more mature. I develop a lot more wisdom. So yeah, I can probably never do a Cartwheel again. I don't know that my back would allow that. But honestly, that's fine. I don't need to do a Cartwheel because I can make my life exactly what I wanted. And that's such a beautiful thing when it comes to aging. Now, a lot of people also freak out about their body changing, their metabolism changing as they age.

Alyssa Scolari [18:59]:

All of that stuff is fine, is normal. I actually don't know the science about if your metabolism really does change a whole lot as you get older. I really don't know the answer to that, but it doesn't matter because this is what our bodies are supposed to do. And it's our job to lean into that. It's our job to trust that, not to fight it. But that's what our society says we need to do. So, so much of embracing aging is really changing your mindset and noticing what is ageism.

Alyssa Scolari [19:38]:

What is discrimination against people who are getting older. Now again, 30 year olds really aren't getting discriminated against, but I'm talking about people of all ages. Another way that we can help to embrace the aging process, I believe is by looking it right in the face. I know people like to say things like, "Oh, once I hit 30 years old, I stopped counting numbers" or, "Oh, once you hit 30, you really don't celebrate your birthdays anymore." And I say, [inaudible 00:20:15] it is a privilege to turn another number, no matter what that number is. Look it right in the face. Because the more we run from something, the more likely it is to catch up with us and bite us in the ass.

Alyssa Scolari [20:30]:

Look your age in the face. See what emotions are coming up for you. Are those emotions that you're feeling rooted in your own internalized ageism? Is there something that you wanted to do last year that you didn't get to do, and is that why you're hesitant to turn a new age this year? Stare it in the face and know that it is such an honor to be the age that you are at. Not everybody gets to live as long as you have, no matter what your age is. I think that doing that has been really, really helpful for me. I have never been one to be ashamed of or hide my age. And I have found that that helps so much.

Alyssa Scolari [21:23]:

So even when I was having a lot of big feelings about turning 30, I had to reflect and really try to understand, okay, what has me so upset? And after a lot of deep reflection, I realized that I truly think it's because of all this pain that I'm in. Because I never pictured myself turning 30 and feeling so sick. That's what I think has done it for me. Now, here's another thing that I would recommend, that I think is really helpful. Look at the people around you or the icons in your world. Listen, a lot of people have hit fame and glory and become TikTok famous, Instagram, famous, singers. What have you, when they were young.

Alyssa Scolari [22:15]:

But look at people like Betty White, may she rest in peace. I think her last film was the Proposal with Ryan Reynolds and Sandra Bullock. And she was in her eighties. And when I look at people like that, I really start to feel so much more accepting of my own aging process. Because if Betty wasn't in her eighties or seventies or whatever, she would've never been so perfect for that role. As she got older, she fit into different roles in her life that just made her. Or I'm sorry, I should say different roles in TV, in movies.

Alyssa Scolari [23:04]:

And she was perfect because of her age. And I like to think of that as really a metaphor for us. As we get older, we become more suitable to take on different roles, whether that looks like a parent, whether that looks like foster parents, whether that looks like volunteering, whether that looks like opening up your own charity, starting your own charity or foundation, whatever that may look like, writing a book, getting a different career.

Alyssa Scolari [23:36]:

I don't know many people who became super, and I'm not talking about Hollywood type people, I'm talking about just regular folks. I don't know that many people who figured out the answers to everything and became super successful and rich all before they were 35. I mean, I just don't. So there's so many things to think about when it comes to this aging process that, hey, you know what? Aging might not be a bad thing. Aging means wisdom.

Alyssa Scolari [24:07]:

Aging means more success. Aging means more opportunities to continue to do different things in your life. There's so much to look forward to at all of the stages. I think about the opportunity to be a grand mom. Could you imagine how cool must that be to get to hang out with babies and then give them back? I can't wait. I can't wait to be a grand mom. That sounds amazing. I can't wait to be retired and have nothing to do, but sit around and knit or rent an RV and go travel all of the states in the country. It sounds amazing. Can I do that now at 30? No, I have responsibilities. I have to work. I don't have, nearly enough money seemed up for retirement, but I can't wait for that day.

Alyssa Scolari [25:03]:

I mean, I can and I can't, right? Because every age of life I think brings such gifts and they're unique gifts. And I have gifts to discover with every passing day. And so do you. So I want you to please try to remember that. And now, of course, when it comes to the physical signs of aging, listen, that's something that we can't control. I mean, we can, to some degree with Botox and fillers and all of these things. And if that's something that you want to do, go for it, absolutely go for it. At the end of the day, though, the aging process that I'm referring to and being able to embrace it is more of about internal than external. Yes. You know what? Our skin is going to sag. It's going to sag.

Alyssa Scolari [25:55]:

Our boobs are going to sag. Our butts are going to sag, whatever. We're just going to sag, but that's okay. It's okay. Because at the end of the day, we are all souls living in a meat sack. That is what I call our skin and our organs, a meat sack. That meat sack doesn't mean much. So let it get old. Honestly, it's a sign. It's a sign that you've done a lot with your life. Let it get old and embrace that and kick ageism in the ass. Because you, especially, if you are a trauma survivor, you've already had so much taken from you, do not let society's ageism take away the joys of aging because there's so much happiness to be found there.

Alyssa Scolari [26:48]:

So I hope this was helpful. Again, I know so many people really struggle about getting older and I, myself struggle at times. This isn't the most difficult thing for me simply because I've had to do a lot of internal reflection and I've really come to a place where I am okay with aging. Now, granted I am 30, which is semi-young to most people I'd say. So, I mean, ask me again in 20, 30 years.

Alyssa Scolari [27:21]:

And I don't know, maybe I'll be absolutely in a panic. But I do know that some of what I'm saying, there is some wisdom to be had in this conversation. Because I even see it with some of my, my clients. I see a lot of clients who are younger than they ask me how old I am or if my age comes up in the conversation, they're, "Holy shit. You're 29 or 30. Are you afraid?" And they're what 18, 19. And I'm, "No, I'm not afraid." They look at me like, I'm ancient. So I know that this definitely has relevancy. And I hope that this is helpful for you. Have a wonderful, wonderful week. I am holding you in the light and we will be back next week. Take care. I love you all.

Alyssa Scolari [28:17]:

Thanks for listening, everyone. For more information, please head over to lightaftertrauma.com or you can also follow us on social media. On Instagram, we are at Light After Trauma. And on Twitter, it is at Light After Pod. Lastly, please head over to Patreon.com/lightaftertrauma to support our show. We are asking for $5 a month, which is the equivalent to a cup of coffee at Starbucks. So please head on over. Again, that's Patreon.com/lightaftertrauma. Thank you. And we appreciate your support.

Jennifer Burns is a southern California mom who spent years being a people pleaser and suppressing trauma before she decided to take her life back into her own hands. Today she is a healing artist, creating beautiful works of art with resin and healing crystals. On this week's episode, Jen shares her incredible healing journey and teaches us what healing crystals are and how they can be a very powerful tool in recovering from trauma.

Healing Art By Jen

Check out the Light After Trauma website for transcripts, other episodes, Alyssa's guest appearances, and more at: www.lightaftertrauma.com

Want to get more great content and interact with the show? Check us out on Instagram: @lightaftertrauma

We need your help! We want to continue to make great content that can help countless trauma warriors on their journey to recovery. So, please help us in supporting the podcast by becoming a recurring patron of the show via Patreon. Every bit helps!

Transcript

Alyssa Scolari [00:00]:

Hey, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of the Light After Trauma podcast. I'm your host, Alyssa Scolari. Happy to be here as always. We've got a guest episode today. I'm really looking forward to this. I feel like I said that all the time. I definitely need to stop saying this, but I'm really excited to learn about today's topic, which is we're talking all things like crystals and things like that.

Alyssa Scolari [00:49]:

So, this has been such a hype, using your crystals and manifesting and things like that. But I'm really curious about, what does that all mean? It can sound very, very woo, woo. And it definitely turns some people off because they don't believe in it, but I definitely think there is something there. So, today, we are talking about that and I cannot wait to learn more.

Alyssa Scolari [01:16]:

And we have with us a very special guest, Jen Burns, who is a Southern California mom, wife, healer, artist and a trauma survivor. She's in the process of finishing up a book about her life, which has been a life of abandonment and adoption, and abuse and of course and most importantly, healing. Living a life that was created from a sea of survival, and then one day, she ended up rebirthing into an artist and a healer.

Alyssa Scolari [01:49]:

And I have had the pleasure of having some conversations with Jen in the past, and she is awesome. So, I'm really, really excited to have her on the show today. So, that being said, hi, Jen, welcome to the podcast.

Jennifer Burns [02:04]:

Hi, thank you so much for having me.

Alyssa Scolari [02:08]:

Thank you for being here. Jen is a dear, dear, dear friend of the podcast. She is an amazing, incredible woman who I truly would not know if it weren't for the podcast. So, thank you Light After Trauma for introducing me to Jen and her amazing talents because you are one talented woman.

Jennifer Burns [02:33]:

Thank you.

Alyssa Scolari [02:37]:

So, before we get into your talents, I guess, can you share a little bit about your backstory? I know that you wanted... you were very intentional about your decision to come on the show. So, there's a reason for that. Would you mind talking about that?

Jennifer Burns [02:54]:

Oh, I would love to share a bit of my story. Just a regular mom, right? I have three beautiful children. I'm a wife and unfortunately suffered a really traumatizing childhood, just filled with a lot of abuse, abandonment, adoption. It's a huge, long, very complicated story. I do have a book that's going to be coming out, and it'll be very detailed.

Jennifer Burns [03:25]:

But I just was fine, right? I was becoming my young adult self in my twenties and didn't date a lot because of my abuse and stumbled upon, met this great guy. And there, my life started, right? But what I didn't anticipate is my pure survival mode that I was in at the time made me find a partner that led me down the road where I attached all of my thoughts, opinions, desires, everything on him.

Jennifer Burns [04:08]:

And I became exactly what he wanted me to be. I'm a chameleon and I do this in every aspect of my life actually. And I didn't know it though. You don't really even know you're doing it. And so, here I am flying along in my life and I have this great guy and we have the greatest relationship.

Jennifer Burns [04:31]:

And I used to pride myself on, "Oh, we've been together 20 years, and we've never had a single solitary fight. We've never had a single solitary argument." And everybody was looking at me like, "That's not normal." And I was like, "Yeah, but that's because I'm so amazing." Right? We're so amazing as a couple, and I'm so agreeable.

Jennifer Burns [04:52]:

Well, anyways, so flash forward, I'm a mother of three children now and I don't know exactly what happened except 42 years old. This is 10 years ago now. I woke up one day, and I was like, "Who is that? Who is that woman in the mirror?" I didn't recognize her. I didn't feel like her. I had literally lost the core of me, but I didn't even know it. Right? I just woke up and it was awful. It was a terrible feeling. I thought I was going to have a complete and utter nervous breakdown.

Jennifer Burns [05:30]:

And so, I started to dive in. And I had been so busy with the husband, so busy with my children. I mean, threw myself in. I was the doting wife. I was the over-the-top mom. I ran PTA. I mean, I was everywhere and I was everything for everyone, right, but nothing to myself, nothing. And I completely lost who I was. And it was almost as if my bucket was full and it was completely running over. And I didn't even want this to happen, but I literally was falling apart.

Jennifer Burns [06:11]:

And I was confused because I had always been in such control of my life. And I knew exactly what I was doing and how I was doing it. And I was happy, but I thought I was happy, right? It's just I was in that mode of, "I'm everything to everyone." And this is how I got through my childhood is being positive and showing everyone, "I'm fine. I'm fine." And I, I was not fine.

Jennifer Burns [06:38]:

And so, I believe that after all the years, your body and the universe and everything works together and you get to a point where it's like, "Nope, you've avoided yourself too long. And now, it's time, whether you want to do this or not."

Alyssa Scolari [06:56]:

Yep. Whether you're are ready or not, here we come.

Jennifer Burns [06:59]:

Yeah. So, I began working on me a little bit. And then, that was super uncomfortable. And I didn't even know what I liked, disliked, thought, nothing, except I was just sad and I was lonely. And I didn't even know I was losing my marriage. My marriage was falling apart because here I am, right, this perfect wife. And all of the sudden, I'm like, "I don't think I like you anymore. No and no." And it was terrible, literally.

Jennifer Burns [07:35]:

My kids were always fine because I could always fake it for them, right? This is 10 years in now. Now, my kids are 24, 21, 13. And now they can... and we're all empaths. And so, they're looking at me and they're going, "Mom, I know you're not okay because I can feel it. What is going on?"

Jennifer Burns [07:59]:

So then, I had to start sharing with my own children, right, here is this perfect mom who was just doing everything and portraying this beautiful image of positivity. And now, I feel like absolute shit. I feel like crap, and I'm falling apart. I had to get so vulnerable with my children.

Jennifer Burns [08:26]:

And that was awful because in my experience, your family are not necessarily the nicest people in your life. And I was so afraid of them not loving me if they really knew who the real me was, this broken woman, but really girl, right, that had never been fixed. I had never gone to therapy for anything. I happened to be involved with a man that was, I don't know, didn't really buy into all that. Of course, we pick, right, the opposite.

Jennifer Burns [09:03]:

And so, anyway, I've had to fight and fight and fight. Turns out now, my kids are my number one fans. They support me more than anyone on this earth. They have continually loved me. And it's a little bit of a role reversal, right? I can be sad and unsure. And they're the ones going, "Mom, you got this. You're good. You're okay." So, it's been huge.

Jennifer Burns [09:35]:

And only up until recently things with my marriage are significantly better as well. It took him a long time to come around though and really let go of what I had created. I did it. It's all my fault. I'm the one that created this perfect marriage. Right? So, here, he thought, we've been together 31 years, for 21 of them, this is his wife. And then, all of a sudden, I'm like, "Nope, never mind. Don't want to be that woman anymore."

Alyssa Scolari [10:08]:

Yeah. I mean, you speak too. There's so much that's in there, right? Even just starting with this concept of, and you use this word that I use very, very often, which is becoming a chameleon. I use that so often when it comes to either talking about my own trauma recovery, talking with my clients, because that often is what a trauma response is. We become a chronic people pleaser. And we take the shape of whatever that we take on the shape. We take on the likes, the beliefs of those around us.

Jennifer Burns [10:52]:

Yeah, because it keeps us safe. It keeps us safe. We know how to work a room. Right?

Alyssa Scolari [10:57]:

Exactly.

Jennifer Burns [10:57]:

We know, "Oh, I have to do this."

Alyssa Scolari [10:58]:

We are the best at it.

Jennifer Burns [11:00]:

We really are. But you don't even know you're doing it, really. It's so natural. It's so second nature.

Alyssa Scolari [11:06]:

It's a survival mechanism.

Jennifer Burns [11:08]:

It is. And then, I had to question, "Am I phony? Am I being fake and phony?" That's came up. And then, I realized, "No, no, no, that was a trauma response. I'm totally conditioned to survive like this." But now, I'm breaking it down. I never had a voice. I never thought that I could actually speak my mind. I saw other people doing it. And I thought, "Wow, how did they do that?"

Jennifer Burns [11:38]:

I'm so afraid of hurting someone's feelings, or my opinion was never good at all. I wasn't even allowed to speak in my home growing up. My opinion was nothing. I was invisible. And so, of course, in the real world, I thought, "Okay, I'm invisible. No one really cares what I have to say."

Alyssa Scolari [11:57]:

I'm going to continue to be invisible, yes.

Jennifer Burns [11:59]:

So, this is how I was. So, I now speak my mind. I say what I mean. And I mean what I say. And it is liberating and empowering. But the thing I found the most is my small little world around me. They didn't like it at all. They're like, "Whoa, who's this? Wait, you're not as soft and nurturing as you used to be." Right?

Jennifer Burns [12:27]:

I was finding my voice and speaking up for myself and setting healthy boundaries. And all of a sudden, this people, friends, family were like, "Oh no, I'm not sure I know who you are anymore." Right? So, it's been a journey for sure.

Alyssa Scolari [12:45]:

Yeah. And that in itself is again something that is so common, setting boundaries with people. When you've been living for everybody, but yourself, you tend to attract people in your life who become very used to that and almost dependent on the fact that you're always going to be there for them no matter what.

Alyssa Scolari [13:05]:

But then, you get to a point where you are no longer living for yourself. Or you're no longer living for other people. You're setting down, and people are like, "Who is that? I don't know that person. I don't really care for that person. Oh, you're doing things for yourself?" People don't like it.

Jennifer Burns [13:25]:

Yes, absolutely. I agree with that. And then, what also happens I think is they suck the life out of you by doing this, right? They literally just suck all your energy away from you. And you're so busy doing everything for them. And I had so many girlfriends that would call me. I was their counselor. I would fix everybody else's problems, but never spend the time and work on me.

Jennifer Burns [13:56]:

I had conditioned myself to be everything to everyone because that created some value in my life. It made me feel like, "See, you do matter. People do need you. They do want you." I mean, I was killing myself doing it though. I was really extending myself way too far.

Alyssa Scolari [14:17]:

Yeah, as so many, especially childhood trauma abuse survivors because we grow up thinking... we grow up with this idea that we are only worthy of love and we are only valuable so longer as we are useful to others. And the moment we are not is the moment where our intrinsic sense of worth becomes very, very shaky. Everything you're saying is... I think that so many people who are listening are going to relate because it's exactly how I felt. So many folks.

Alyssa Scolari [15:01]:

And so, for you, you discovered. How did you transform? I mean, you transformed yourself from the inside out. But then, you went on to transform your life from the inside out, your relationships with your children, your relationships with your husband. We are talking magnificent transformations, which, I mean, is incredible.

Jennifer Burns [15:26]:

Thank you.

Alyssa Scolari [15:26]:

Yeah, it's incredible in itself.

Jennifer Burns [15:29]:

It feels like it was this incredible endeavor. I appreciate you acknowledging it. Honestly, it was uncomfortable. And it was scary because I didn't really know what I was doing. And I think that us as survivors, we don't feel very confident about the choices that we make. And we do need all that external validation. We're not used to trusting ourselves.

Jennifer Burns [15:55]:

So, this is really what happened. I'm a very crafty person. I'm very creative. So, I always had an outlet like that. I used to be a wedding and event planner. I had my own wedding business for years. Oh, my God. It's amazing, amazing, amazing. But it's very fast paced. It's very last minute. You do everything in one day. It's a lot.

Jennifer Burns [16:19]:

And I was raising three kids, and I thought, "Oh, I need to do something else." But I always had to do crafts and I love to do... it was like I found that my mind could relax when I was crafting, but it would also not just relax. I call it floating into my childhood. I would float in and take little glimpses of my childhood. And then, I would float back out. I would be like, "Okay." And then, I'd float back out.

Jennifer Burns [16:51]:

I was constantly comparing, "Wow, look how good my kids have it. I'd have given anything for this kind of childhood." Right? When I would craft with them, I would teach them how to draw or paint. And it didn't matter, anything. Make flower arrangements. It just didn't matter. So, I took this to the next level. I started finger painting with my kids because I liked the way it felt in my finger.

Alyssa Scolari [17:18]:

The sensory, yes.

Jennifer Burns [17:19]:

Yes. It was way more. It was going deeper. And it was more raw and authentic. And it was just blending and it was the colors. And I was drawn to a color for a certain reason. And then, I started looking back and I thought, "Oh, these are so boring." I like that I painted that, but these are so boring. I want to embellish them somehow. And all of a sudden, I started finding different things to put on my paintings, and I found crystals.

Alyssa Scolari [17:49]:

Crystals.

Jennifer Burns [17:50]:

And I started picking up crystals and I was like, "Okay, am I crazy? I'm feeling something. What is this?" And I just got obsessed with crystals because of their energy. In certain times in my journey, I would be drawn to a different crystal because of their energy and what I was going through and my energy at the time. So, I started incorporating the two.

Jennifer Burns [18:18]:

And then, I started thinking, "Okay, how can I make these pieces permanent?" Because I didn't want to put a painting on a wall and then have it just fade over time or crystals fall off. And then, I found resin. And resin allowed me to permanently adhere the crystals to any surface. So then, I was like, "Oh my gosh." So, that's how my art came about.

Jennifer Burns [18:46]:

But as I dove into it deeper and deeper and deeper, I was not the only one being affected. I was just doing it for myself. And then, people would come over and they would see or feel something in my art and say, "Whoa, that..." and they could tell, "Wow, you were going through a dark time with that one." because I used all black obsidian. It's just Bloodstone and just different crystals that were really dark and heavy.

Jennifer Burns [19:18]:

But then, there could be this really gentle, bright pink rose quartz piece that was just pretty and soft and very loving. Right? Then people started asking me, "Well, would you make me one? And would you make me one?" And people were putting them in their homes and feeling the beautiful energy that would come off of them.

Jennifer Burns [19:41]:

Because now, I've gotten to the point as anybody in a craft, right? You learn to hone in on it a little bit more. I can work with a client now. And we can collaborate and I can set my intention in those crystals, and set it into their home. So, I can infuse them with the love and support, and strength or whatever it is they're needing and we can collaborate. And it's just a beautiful little marriage.

Alyssa Scolari [20:10]:

It's so beautiful. And I mean, I could talk about your artwork and I... for the listeners out there, Jen's website is linked in the show notes for today. When I tell you, if you've not done anything else, you need to go on, you need to look at this artwork. If you've never clicked on a link before in my show notes, let this be the one you do because-

Jennifer Burns [20:34]:

Oh, thank you.

Alyssa Scolari [20:34]:

... her artwork is beautiful. And of course, that is something which you and I will absolutely be talking about that because I do want to get a piece from you for my office. And I knew that. We were talking and I saw your work long before I even moved to this new home.

Alyssa Scolari [20:56]:

And I showed my husband and, I was like, "Listen, when we move, we need to get a piece like this for our home." So, I'm really looking forward to that. So, I have some questions for you as I know some of the listeners might because there is so much crystal hype out there.

Jennifer Burns [21:15]:

Yeah, there is. Super popular now.

Alyssa Scolari [21:18]:

It is super, super trendy right now. But I have been trying to get to the bottom of what exactly it is. And I wasn't too sure. Right? Quick story, I wasn't too sure how I felt about the whole the crystal thing as I would call it. Lots of my clients would come in, and they would be like, "I have these crystals, and this does this. Then this is supposed to do that."

Alyssa Scolari [21:50]:

And I was like, "Okay, this is really cool." Not really sure if they're more than just rocks, but they're really pretty to look at. And I have had so many clients for so many years at this point be like, "Alyssa, you need to go and buy crystals. You need to get into this. It is so healing."

Alyssa Scolari [22:11]:

So, I was working with a marketing coach who sent me... I was searching for a house at the height of this wild housing market where homes were selling for $100,000 over asking price. And we could not find a home. When we would find a home that we fell in love with, it would be within minutes or hours, that house was already off the market with an offer that was $100,000 in asking price, all cash. It was a really, really stressful time.

Alyssa Scolari [22:44]:

We could not find a place to live. And my marketing coach, her name's [Pettya 00:22:52], she sent me this crystal. I don't remember the name of it, but it was blue. It was like a turquoise.

Jennifer Burns [23:01]:

It must be amazonite or something like that.

Alyssa Scolari [23:03]:

Yeah, something like that.

Jennifer Burns [23:05]:

Maybe a blue amazonite or something, yeah.

Alyssa Scolari [23:08]:

She was like, "I really want you to take this with you when you're going to look for homes." I shit you not, I took that out with me the next day when we went to go find a home. And we found this home that I live in now. We got it for asking price. Didn't pay a dime over asking price which is unheard of in this market. And I was blown away.

Alyssa Scolari [23:38]:

And then, I was like, "Okay, there might be something to this." Fast forward a few months, a couple weeks ago, my husband and I are in this cute little village near where we live, where there's lots of shops and nice little things. And there was this crystal shop. Now, I personally had never been inside a crystal shop before. And I went in, and I felt things.

Jennifer Burns [24:02]:

That's it.

Alyssa Scolari [24:03]:

Strange. I don't even have words for it.

Jennifer Burns [24:08]:

It's a vibration and an energy.

Alyssa Scolari [24:12]:

Yes, yes. While I was in there is that I noticed I kept coming back to this specific crystal. And I couldn't understand why because there were other crystals in there that were more sparkly or whatever. But there was a specific one I was very, very drawn to. And I left and I didn't look it up or anything. There wasn't a sign about what it's supposed to do for you.

Alyssa Scolari [24:39]:

I left and we were driving home and I was like, "I don't know why, but I can't stop thinking about that one crystal." And I went to go look it up. And for the last several months, I have been struggling with GI issues, hormonal regulation issues, so many health problems. I looked up what that stone is often used for, regulating hormonal imbalances, healing your GI system. And I was like, "Oh, shit."

Jennifer Burns [25:15]:

Yeah, there is something to this.

Alyssa Scolari [25:17]:

I have now entered the world.

Jennifer Burns [25:19]:

[inaudible 00:25:19].

Alyssa Scolari [25:22]:

Yes.

Jennifer Burns [25:23]:

That's awesome.

Alyssa Scolari [25:23]:

Can you please explain to us how does this process work? What is this? How can it help? Where should somebody even begin if they want to get started?

Jennifer Burns [25:36]:

Okay. So basically, think about it like this, over millions of years, thousands of years, however far back you want to go, the earth creates heat and pressure, right? And when they mine these crystals, you don't know how long they've been there, sitting there, waiting for someone to find them.

Jennifer Burns [25:59]:

And all that heat and energy and pressure creates a vibration and an energy into that crystal. So, after they mine it and they might polish it, sometimes you'll get it in a raw form or a polished form, however it is, it is going to emanate an energy. It's going to give you a vibration and an energy. And you need to cleanse your crystals. That's a whole another process.

Alyssa Scolari [26:25]:

The selenite sticks, right? Is that what people use to cleanse them?

Jennifer Burns [26:28]:

They do. Yes, selenite. You use the full moon. You can use water. Don't use water on selenite though. It'll dissolve. But other than that, yes, selenite. You can just place one nice stick of selenite within your collection of crystals. And it will actually help cleanse all your crystals.

Jennifer Burns [26:48]:

Because if you think about it like this, once you pick your crystal and you can do it exactly how you do it, just walking around, feeling what its calling to you because it's... and it'll change. You could go into that shop tomorrow and you might be drawn to a completely different crystal now because you might need a different energy source.

Jennifer Burns [27:09]:

So, once you pick your crystal and you bring it into your home, I set my intention with that crystal. I would like it to protect my home. I have obsidian by my door because it blocks negativity from coming in, things like that. I love to have rose quartz in my bathroom because it's all about self-love and self-care. Amethyst is everywhere in my house because it's basically healing. It's all about healing and calming.

Jennifer Burns [27:37]:

I mean, I have crystals everywhere as you can imagine. But once you pick a crystal, it's all about allowing yourself to hold it. But that's the other thing. People will put a gorgeous display out and never touch those crystals. It's fine. You can do that. And it will still bring in gorgeous energy into that room. But you also want to pick that crystal up, feel it. Let that transfer of energy happen.

Jennifer Burns [28:07]:

When you hold someone's hand and you feel something, the same thing happens when you pick up a crystal. Especially if it's a crystal you need, you will definitely be called to what you need. I even had picked up before we had our call today. I have about six crystals here that I know would be amazing in your life right now. I have literally pulled out some crystals. I'll tell them to you.

Alyssa Scolari [28:36]:

That's amazing.

Jennifer Burns [28:37]:

I can do it later, but this one specifically had to do with calming, healing and fertility. So, I don't know why I'm picking that up, but I am. So, just things like that. Things maybe just in the root chakra.

Alyssa Scolari [28:54]:

But you don't know why you're picking that up?

Jennifer Burns [28:58]:

Well, I know why, but I didn't want to say it out loud.

Alyssa Scolari [29:03]:

Oh, no.

Jennifer Burns [29:03]:

I mean, we've never talked about this. So, you know what I mean. I didn't want to make any assumptions over a recording. You know what I mean?

Alyssa Scolari [29:12]:

Yeah. No, that's fascinating to me because yes, I am actually seeing a surgeon tomorrow for endometriosis.

Jennifer Burns [29:21]:

Oh, wow. There you go. Now, funny story, it's not funny actually, about two years ago now, I used to take care of my aunt. And she had dementia, and she had no children. And I was the closest thing to a daughter to her, and very old school just won't talk about any of the toxicity or any of the abuse that happened in our family. You can't even talk to her about it.

Jennifer Burns [29:52]:

And her sister was one of my main abusers which was my mother. And you just couldn't talk to her about it. So, you just had to... I love her, but she was mean. And she had no filter and she would just say horrible things to me. And I was very upset by her all the time.

Jennifer Burns [30:10]:

So, jump in, I would have to take care of her because there literally was no one in the family. And I've already cut off this whole side of my family. So, this was very, very difficult for me. So, I'm going somewhere with this story. What this means is when I started taking care of her and she could still speak, and she would say awful things. And I started getting sick. I started getting sicker and sicker.

Jennifer Burns [30:42]:

I was fine. I wouldn't stand up for myself or anything because she's old and she didn't really... you're just nice like that. Right? But internally, I was getting so sick and I ended up getting sick at my other abuse point which was in my root chakra or my uterus. Right? So, I started bleeding out.

Jennifer Burns [31:07]:

I know this is a lot of information. But basically, I started hemorrhaging to the point where I couldn't stop. I couldn't stop at all. So, I had surgery and I was fine. And I went back to my aunt. And I was on the plane to go see her. I have had surgery. I'm fine now. I'm not bleeding anywhere. And I'm on the plane. And I'm about to get off the plane to go see her, and I have a complete explosion.

Alyssa Scolari [31:36]:

What?

Jennifer Burns [31:37]:

I know this is so much information. I'm a total open book, but yeah, it was really scary.

Alyssa Scolari [31:43]:

Oh, my gosh.

Jennifer Burns [31:44]:

My point is, my sickness was so deep within. I had to end up having surgery again. So, my point is, I grabbed my crystals, this, and I was new at this point with crystals. I didn't really understand the power. I got my crystals and I got crystals specifically for that area, my root chakra. Lots of red crystals, right, your carnelians, your bloodstone, moonstone, things like that. And I healed so beautifully, so quickly. And it was beautiful.

Jennifer Burns [32:25]:

Even my doctor was like, "You are doing amazing considering you just had two surgeries in two months." kind of thing. Crystals have been great for me personally. I use them in every aspect of my life. I use them every single day. Not only in my work, which I don't even consider work. I get to just have this job where I focus on me every day all day now, which is the opposite of what my life used to be.

Jennifer Burns [32:56]:

It's also ritualistic. And I think that is probably the biggest change in my life is I create my world to be so aesthetically pleasing with music, with lighting. I literally sit and I speak to my guides and I ask them to work with me daily. And I pick the crystals. And if I've collaborated with someone, I'll be pulling them in and having conversations with them and getting to know them, so that I can set the intention of this piece that's going to go in their home.

Jennifer Burns [33:32]:

And then, I sit for hours. Literally, I can spend eight hours in my studio, literally placing each and every crystal intentionally. And then, I set it in resin and it is just the most fulfilling thing I've ever done in my life. And at the end of the day, I feel so internally at peace and that is new. I've never felt at peace in my life. And this is where it's coming from now, my work. And I started therapy three months ago because I was finally-

Alyssa Scolari [34:12]:

Congratulations.

Jennifer Burns [34:12]:

Thank you. I was finally at a point in my life because of my work now that I could allow my brain to go there. And so, I started EMDR, amazing, life changing.

Alyssa Scolari [34:29]:

Amazing. That's what I've heard.

Jennifer Burns [34:31]:

Literally. I can't really explain it except it works. It literally reprograms your brain. And you don't even... you feel silly in the moment. Is this really doing something? I can't even tell you how it has cleared the cobwebs of abuse in my body. It's amazing.

Alyssa Scolari [34:54]:

It is so amazing. And for the listeners out there, if you are curious to learn more about EMDR, it is a highly effective treatment for trauma. And you actually can go back earlier on in my episodes. I had Melissa Parks, I believe her name is. I mean, she was incredible and she breaks down exactly what EMDR is. So, please feel free to go back and check that out. But yes, EMDR is phenomenal.

Alyssa Scolari [35:24]:

Because I think so much of trauma, when we look at trauma in the western culture, it's so disembodied, right? It's just like we're not looking at how trauma is stored in your body. And I think EMDR does a decent job at trying to address trauma in a way that's not just talk therapy.

Jennifer Burns [35:44]:

Exactly. Because in a way, you really have to think about a moment that you want to work on. And that is the beauty of EMDR is you deal with one particular incident at a time. And for me, it was like I was getting to the point like, "Do I have something I need to think about?"

Jennifer Burns [36:06]:

I could literally do so many particular incidences, and it is so specific. It's not scary at all. It's actually quite a soothing process. And I don't know how it works in your brain. I really would love to learn more about that part. I'm just trusting my therapist and going with it. And I listen to everything.

Alyssa Scolari [36:30]:

Requires trust.

Jennifer Burns [36:31]:

It really does. But also, 100%, you have to be so open. And you have to know that it's going to work. You have to know that it's going to get in there and fix you. And I think that is the part of therapy I was always frightened of is I thought it just still seemed so overwhelming. And I didn't know what I was going to say or what was going to come out of me.

Jennifer Burns [36:56]:

And I also felt like, "How on earth am I going to go do that? And then, go back and go do the dishes, and cook dinner and be with my children." And I couldn't do that, right, because I'm always so high, positive. And so, this has allowed me to really go there, but not feel like I can't now go back and join my life right after. It's fine.

Jennifer Burns [37:22]:

Anyway, it's a beautiful process. And so, combined with... and I've tried lots of different things, but the EMDR, my art, and literally every single day choosing to take the time, I do it like a job now. I spend time on me as if it was my job. Now, I'm lucky. And I do get to do that. I don't have to actually leave my house and go to a job, 9:00 to 5:00, but I choose me as a job right now. And it's working. It's absolutely working.

Alyssa Scolari [37:57]:

So important. Yes, I have full body chills from all the things that you've said. I think it's so fascinating. And it's so fascinating that one of the things that came to you was a crystal that's supposed to help with fertility issues. It's just oh, full body chills.

Jennifer Burns [38:19]:

Exactly.

Alyssa Scolari [38:19]:

It's wild to me.

Jennifer Burns [38:21]:

Well, I used to mentor people intuitively, but this was before people knew that word. That word's thrown around a lot now. I mean, it really is. And I would never tell anyone, "Yeah, I'm an intuitive." They'd be like, "You're a what?" That's weird. But I would just know things about people and I call it getting a download. And I would get really quiet. People don't get quiet enough. Because when you get quiet, it is amazing what comes to you.

Jennifer Burns [38:53]:

And I think us as women, and I know it happens for men too, but especially women because we do everything based off our gut, which is never wrong by the way ever. If you sit there, you will get information on anyone. I mean, especially if you're in the presence.

Alyssa Scolari [39:13]:

You just have to be open to it.

Jennifer Burns [39:14]:

You just have to be quiet and open. And also, I really believe for me personally, I had to cut people out of my life. And I had to not feel bad about it anymore. I felt guilty. I felt like I can't do that. But people didn't understand it and thought I was being mean. But you know what? You have to surround yourself with beautiful people and people that think like you.

Jennifer Burns [39:42]:

And I still struggle sometimes with the family part of it. Because when the holidays are coming, right, I'm like, "Oh, I feel this sense of obligation to show up." But you know what? I don't anymore. And I don't even feel bad anymore because it's okay. It's for me. It's all okay. And it's for me. And they're not really banging down my door anyway, right? They're not really asking. So, it's okay.

Alyssa Scolari [40:13]:

Yes, it is so okay. I've had that experience too. Thanksgiving was the first holiday that I chose to spend it with who was safe.

Jennifer Burns [40:21]:

There you go. Safe, that's it. That's the perfect word.

Alyssa Scolari [40:25]:

Yeah. I mean, it was incredible. It was just incredible. And like you said, my family didn't knock down my door. Nobody was knocking down my door. So, it was like, "Well, I went where I felt the most loved, and it ended up being really fun."

Jennifer Burns [40:42]:

Oh, see, there you go. I think as trauma survivors, we're just constantly seeking safety and that soft place. And we never trust it. We always are expecting there to be this element of uncomfortableness somewhere.

Jennifer Burns [40:57]:

And it's so beautiful to choose joy now and sit in a place like that filled with family or friends that you do love and love you and accept you. You go home and you're like, "Oh, my gosh. I actually enjoyed this. And nothing bad happened today [crosstalk 00:41:16], which is amazing." My God, what a thought.

Alyssa Scolari [41:20]:

What a dream. I know.

Jennifer Burns [41:23]:

So simple.

Alyssa Scolari [41:24]:

Yes, and a place like that comes from, just like you said, making you a full-time job and making caring for yourself a full-time job. It's a beautiful-

Jennifer Burns [41:33]:

Yeah. And it doesn't have to be forever. Just even if it's a week, a day, a month, whatever you can to sit and really self-love, self-love. You don't have to have crystals to do this. Just literally get quiet. I talk to my guides and I say, "You know what? What do you have for me today?" or, "I really need your support today. I'm having, for some reason, a very nostalgic day and I'm sad."

Jennifer Burns [42:01]:

And in fact, I was thinking about this yesterday. The Christmas music has come on our radios and which is awesome. It's my favorite time of year. And I've created beautiful holidays in our family. That is my thing is holidays. We all get so excited now.

Jennifer Burns [42:20]:

I was thinking while I was driving my daughter to school. And I thought, "Oh, my gosh. She's so excited about Christmas, and so am I." But back when I was her age, I used to dread Christmas because I was home stuck with them. Right? And I would never enjoy Christmas. It wasn't enjoyable at all. I would just be living in fear.

Jennifer Burns [42:44]:

And so, I thought how beautiful it is to turn that around. And instead of hang onto that and always hate Christmas, now, I absolutely love it. And it's my favorite. Because I think again, you have to make a choice. You have to decide that was then. That's over. And this is now. And I think a lot of people can't differentiate that and get out of that.

Alyssa Scolari [43:08]:

It's a lot of hard work. It is a lot of hard work, which is why I have the utmost respect for you. I mean, I just-

Jennifer Burns [43:16]:

Thank you.

Alyssa Scolari [43:18]:

I love talking to you.

Jennifer Burns [43:19]:

Thank you so much. Oh, I love it. This has been so fun.

Alyssa Scolari [43:23]:

It's so great talking to you. And I learned so much. I was so excited for this, to do this interview. And I know that I had to postpone and it took me a little while, but truthfully, it's amazing.

Jennifer Burns [43:38]:

Glad you're good.

Alyssa Scolari [43:38]:

The timing of the universe is impeccable because I would not have had those experiences with crystals if we had done the interview back when we initially talked about it.

Jennifer Burns [43:50]:

That's right.

Alyssa Scolari [43:52]:

So, yeah, the timing of the universe is impeccable.

Jennifer Burns [43:59]:

I remind myself every day, "I'm exactly where I'm supposed to be today."

Alyssa Scolari [44:04]:

That's exactly it. Yep, I am exactly where I'm supposed to be in this moment. Yes, that is a really important thing to remember, all of us.

Jennifer Burns [44:15]:

That's right.

Alyssa Scolari [44:16]:

Now, can you give out your website? It is going to be on the show notes. But can you just say what your website is so that people can find you?

Jennifer Burns [44:23]:

Yes, absolutely. So, it's healingartbyjen.com. And I also have an Instagram, @healingartbyjen, and it's constantly being updated. And you can also contact me through there to do commission pieces and special custom pieces for your houses.

Alyssa Scolari [44:45]:

All right, listeners, you know where that website is. Go find it. Her work is so breathtakingly beautiful.

Jennifer Burns [44:54]:

Thank you.

Alyssa Scolari [44:55]:

And I know you are in the process of writing a book. I would absolutely love to have you back on when you are promoting your book and things like that.

Jennifer Burns [45:05]:

Okay. Thank you.

Alyssa Scolari [45:07]:

So, this is not the last we will be hearing of Jen.

Jennifer Burns [45:11]:

Thank you.

Alyssa Scolari [45:11]:

And thank you so, so much for coming on the show today.

Jennifer Burns [45:13]:

Oh, thanks, Alyssa. This has been so fun.

Alyssa Scolari [45:17]:

Thanks for listening, everyone. For more information, please head over to lightaftertrauma.com, or you can also follow us on social media. On Instagram, we are @lightaftertrauma. And on Twitter, it is @lightafterpod.

Alyssa Scolari [45:34]:

Lastly, please head over to patreon.com/lightaftertrauma to support our show. We are asking for $5 a month, which is the equivalent to a cup of coffee at Starbucks. So, please head on over again. That's patreon.com/lightaftertrauma. Thank you. And we appreciate your support.

Feeling overwhelmed by the push to make a New Year's Resolution? Tune in to learn more effective ways to create and achieve your 2022 goals.

Check out the Light After Trauma website for transcripts, other episodes, Alyssa's guest appearances, and more at: www.lightaftertrauma.com

Want to get more great content and interact with the show? Check us out on Instagram: @lightaftertrauma

We need your help! We want to continue to make great content that can help countless trauma warriors on their journey to recovery. So, please help us in supporting the podcast by becoming a recurring patron of the show via Patreon. Every bit helps!

Transcript

Alyssa Scolari [00:23]:

Hi everybody. Welcome back. This is the last episode of 2021, which I can't believe honestly. It's wild that we are now going on to the third calendar year of podcasting. I am really excited. Happy Holidays. Merry Christmas, if you celebrate Christmas. Happy Kwanza. Happy Hanukah. I know Hanukah was a while back, but Happy Hanukah, nonetheless. I hope that the holidays have treated you with love and kindness, because we all need a little bit extra of that, especially during these times.

Alyssa Scolari [01:01]:

Today, I have a rather short episode coming at you. Not going to be super long. We will get back into the regular swing of things in 2022. I have a guest episode coming at you for the first episode of the new year, but today I wanted to talk a little bit about an alternative approach or what I think is a little bit more of an effective approach to new year's resolutions.

Alyssa Scolari [01:29]:

Now that the holidays, the religious holidays, so to speak, are behind us, which I had a very good holiday by the way. Not that any of you asked, but I just thought I would put that out there. Last year was really hard because of the pandemic and this year, I mean, things are still really bad, so we didn't do anything huge. I took off this week, so I am just vibing and relaxing. I currently actually am in a onesie.

Alyssa Scolari [01:59]:

Yes, I am about to be 30 years old and I am in a onesie and I am not ashamed about it. I cannot believe that I have never worn a onesie before now. Friends, it is the best thing ever.And I actually don't think that they're called... I don't think they're called onesies. I think that's what you call them for like babies or whatever but you know what I mean? One of those like outfits that are just all one piece. I guess it could be like a jumper, but mine is like a lounge jumper that I have that I got for Christmas and I am in heaven. I am vibing in that as we speak. I have a blanket wrapped around me, some hot chocolate. I am in full relaxation mode and it's actually snowing out here today in Pennsylvania, which is really magical.

Alyssa Scolari [02:51]:

If you know me, you know I love the snow. Love, love, love it. So that's where I'm at this week and yeah, it's really nice to have a week off. I know that the last solo episode I put out was really heavy because I was talking a lot about my struggles right now and my battle with endometriosis. I know that that it was an episode that was hard to listen to. Endometriosis is really a life altering disease, but you know, as an update I am doing okay right now. Knock on wood, I have not had a ton of pain. Thank goodness. It's really nice to get a break and yeah, so I'm doing okay right now. Thank goodness. Thank you for who reached out, especially after hearing that episode and just connected with me and wanted to touch base. I really appreciate it. It was very tough being that vulnerable, but I know that I'm not the only one who feels the way that I feel, so I thought it was really important to share.

Alyssa Scolari [03:57]:

So okay. Transitioning back to new year's resolutions. I have always hated this holiday and looking back on it, I mean, I think because nobody really hates a holiday unless you have some kind of personal or vulnerable reason for hating it. I have a very strong reaction to new year's and I think it's because of all of the, I guess, emphasis on drinking and partying and I was never really into that, but I think honestly more than that, I also, when I was younger and in like in high school or whatever, I was never invited to any parties. I never really had any opportunity to party on New Year's Eve, but now I'm kind of like over it. I don't really have any interest in it.

Alyssa Scolari [04:53]:

So as I've gotten older and I've become, I think less bitter about not being invited to the parties, which I totally was a bitter teenager, I realize that New Year's is about more that just parties. It's really about having a resolution, if you believe in that. Some people don't and I never really did. I was always like, oh, resolutions. It's just a setup because you're just going to fail but I think that I was always looking at that from a very like diet culture, frame of mind, where everybody's New Year resolution was, I'm going to lose weight this year. I am going to become a size, whatever.

Alyssa Scolari [05:39]:

I remember in years past, my friends or one of my friends, actually took out a pair of jeans that she used to fit into, honestly when she was a teenager. So like it doesn't even make logical sense that she would fit into them now because she is an adult, but she took out her jeans that she wore from when she was a teenager and she hung them up in her room every day, as a reminder that it's her New Year's resolution to get down to that size.

Alyssa Scolari [06:07]:

I think that's part of why I also resented New Year's cause it was just like diets and weight loss and this and that and it felt like so much pressure. I think that New Year's resolutions generally don't often work out, or people don't usually follow through, because the resolutions themselves are so overwhelming and so vague. Y'all know how I feel about diets and diet culture at this point. I'm just using this as an example.

Alyssa Scolari [06:41]:

If somebody wants to lose weight, they make their New Year's resolution, I'm going to lose weight or I'm going to get down to a jean size, X. But then there's really no full-detailed planning on how that's going to happen. I'm going to buy this to gym membership and maybe I'm going to join Weight Watchers, which again, I'm putting this out there, not because I believe in any of this, because you all know that I don't. I am not a fan of diet culture whatsoever, but this is what people, or this is what I have found, most of us and myself included at one point, often do.

Alyssa Scolari [07:18]:

I'm going to join Weight Watchers. I'm going to join a gym. I'm going to hang my pants up so I can have that daily motivation that I need to lose weight and that's kind of just this reminder. But that feels so overwhelming, right? It's like, now I have to learn this brand new diet and then I have to try to find time in my schedule to go to the gym three to four times a week. Then I have to be looking at these pants every day and feel guilty that I am not that size right now. It's like very, very, I don't know, overwhelming. I know I've said that several times, but that's just how it feels and I think that the same thing could be said for other types of goals that people have.

Alyssa Scolari [08:03]:

Sometimes your goal is I want to make more money this year. Or sometimes your goal is I want to learn, I don't know. I want to learn how to crochet or maybe more goals related to like your mental health. I want to beat my depression this year. Or I want to love myself more this year. Things like that. All amazing goals, right? Love those goals, but they're super vague and there's a million different ways we can get it to those. We can reach those goals.

Alyssa Scolari [08:44]:

So, here's what I would recommend. Here's what works for me. I do not really put any kind of like major stakes into New Year's resolutions. I'm like just kind of like, oh, this year I really want to focus on X, Y, and Z. If it doesn't happen, I'm not beating myself up over it because I just don't. I'm always making new goals for myself and I guess I just personally don't feel the need to create like a New Year's resolution list.

Alyssa Scolari [09:12]:

But if this is what you want to do, I have worked with a lot of clients and I have chatted with a lot of friends who often put a lot of weight into their New Year's resolutions. So I could definitely offer some tips on how that can be done and what I recommend is making your goals much, much smaller.

Alyssa Scolari [09:36]:

So, if your goal is to practice more self-love. Again, broad concept. How are we going to bring that down? How are we going to... Because we cannot, especially with the times right now, honestly, it's going to be so hard to decide that we are going to make a habit right now and stick to it for the next 365 days. That's a lot to ask, especially when the state of the world has so many question marks around it.

Alyssa Scolari [10:07]:

So, what can we do instead? Well, what would be one act of self-love? Perhaps it is creating some type of like gratitude journal. That might be it. That might be it for you. Now, are we going to start off by saying, I need to write in this journal every single night before bed or every single morning when I wake up? I mean, no. I wouldn't recommend that because again, that's going to be very overwhelming and you are now adding another task to your life, to your already busy life.

Alyssa Scolari [10:45]:

So, how about this? How about I am going to aim once a week. Let's get even more specific. On Saturday mornings because I'm not rushing to get to work. I'm off. I have some time. I am going to aim to write a gratitude journal on Saturday mornings. Now we've cut our amount of journaling from 365 days of the year to 52, but that seems so much more manageable and honestly, if you have made a gratitude list for 52 days of the year, that's amazing. Absolutely amazing. So try to come up with goals that are more tangible.

Alyssa Scolari [11:34]:

For me personally, I actually, one of the things that I've really been wanting to do this year is try to work on the way that I speak to myself in my head, because I tend to give so much more love and kindness to other people, but I have zero love and kindness when it comes to myself, sadly. So what I want to do is I want to start writing all of the kind things that happen to me.

Alyssa Scolari [12:03]:

When I get really overwhelmed or when I get depressed, I can only see the bad. That's it. I've got to filter on, where only the bad things are coming in and I would like to have a tangible item where I can go to and reflect back on some of my darker days, and remind myself of how loved I am. Because like I said, when I'm depressed, it gets really, really hard for me to go back into my memory and be like, oh, remember, on this day, when this person said this really great thing about you.

Alyssa Scolari [12:34]:

So something I would like to do moving forward would be, like I said, to start writing things down when they happen to me, when really good things happen. I had somebody reach out to me maybe a week ago at this point, and tell me what an impact I have on their lives and their text message was absolutely beautiful. And it brought me to tears. It's those moments that I really want to hold onto because those moments are the moments that will help get me through the darker times. And if I have them in front of me and can access those memories or those reminders anytime, I'm hoping that I will be less likely to be constantly filling my head with negative self-talk. So there's an idea for you. If you are looking for ways to take better care of yourself or love yourself a little bit more as your New Year's resolution.

Alyssa Scolari [13:36]:

Now, the ma... I won't say the majority, but many, many, many people have a New Year's resolution of getting back in shape or eating healthier or losing weight, et cetera. And again, you all know, I am an intuitive eater and I practice intuitive eating with my clients and with myself through and through. That's what I talk about on this podcast. That's what I believe is the ultimate way to health and food freedom. But I also acknowledge that that's not where other people are and some people just want to lose weight and they want to get in shape and they want to change their bodies and manipulate the number on the scale.

Alyssa Scolari [14:22]:

If that's where you are at, okay, okay. But let me recommend this. So here's what we know. We know that 95% of diets fail. Yet, the diet industry is a 60 billion dollar, per year, industry. 60 billion dollars with a 95% failure rate. 60 billion dollars with a only a 5% success rate. I just want you to marinate on that, because that really blows my mind.

Alyssa Scolari [15:15]:

I'm not going to say don't diet. If that's what you feel called to do in this moment, you have to do what feels best for you. But what I will recommend is this. Before you decide to give the diet industry any more of your money, any more of your time, any more of your stress and any more of your health, knowing that there's a 95% chance this could fail, I want to encourage you to reevaluate your goals a little bit. And by that, I mean, I don't mean drop everything and just become an intuitive eater, because some people truly don't believe in that and that's okay.

Alyssa Scolari [16:04]:

But maybe instead of investing your money in the diet industry, maybe invest your money in a nutritionist, a holistic health nutritionist. I cannot say that word today. Maybe invest your money in somebody like that. Maybe find an intuitive eating person, a dietician, who can help you with one of your goals, or multiple of your goals, but maybe try to look for health outside of the diet industry, because you might have better success there in terms of becoming the person physically, mentally, and emotionally, that you would like to be. Just a thought.

Alyssa Scolari [16:56]:

And honestly, looking outside of the box in terms of like looking to different types of professionals to help me with food, with medical issues, with everything has been the most healing for me. So that's just something I'm recommending, if you know, one of your resolutions is diet health, weight loss, maybe try somebody who's not really fully affiliated with like the diet industry. Somebody who can work one-on-one with you, because at the end of the day, you're going to invest your money either way, but maybe invest your money in somebody who can help you achieve the goals that you want, but also might have a higher success rate than diet industry.

Alyssa Scolari [17:42]:

So there's my two cents. You can take that or leave it, but basically the concept applies with any kind of resolution. Start small, take it slow, and remind yourself to check in. Start small, give yourself compassion, keep loving yourself through it, and know that if you mess up or if you do not achieve all of your goals at the end of this year, you did nothing wrong. At the end of the day, if all you did was survive, especially with the state of the world right now, you have succeeded.

Alyssa Scolari [18:21]:

So Happy New Year, everybody. I hope that this is helpful. I am holding you in the light and I will see you all in 2022.

Alyssa Scolari [18:30]:

Thanks for listening everyone. For more information, please head over to lightaftertrauma.com or you can also follow us on social media. On Instagram we are at lightaftertrauma and on Twitter, it is @lightafterpod.

Alyssa Scolari [18:47]:

Lastly, please head over to patreon.com/lightaftertrauma to support our show. We are asking for $5 a month, which is the equivalent to a cup of coffee at Starbucks. So please head on over again. That's patreon.com/lightaftertrauma. Thank you and we appreciate your support.

Trauma severs the connection between our brains and our bodies, yet so much of Western culture encourages healing only from the chin up. On this week's episode, Kaity Rose Holsapple, a Somatic Yoga Therapist, explains the many reasons why we cannot fully heal from trauma without addressing the healing within our bodies.

Kaity's Website:

https://www.hertemplehealing.com/

Check out the Light After Trauma website for transcripts, other episodes, Alyssa's guest appearances, and more at: www.lightaftertrauma.com

Want to get more great content and interact with the show? Check us out on Instagram: @lightaftertrauma

We need your help! We want to continue to make great content that can help countless trauma warriors on their journey to recovery. So, please help us in supporting the podcast by becoming a recurring patron of the show via Patreon. Every bit helps!

Transcript

Alyssa Scolari [00:23]:

Hey everybody, welcome back to another episode of the Light After Trauma podcast. I am your host, Alyssa Scolari, and we've got another awesome guest episode today which I'm so excited for. We have with us Kaitlyn Rose-Holsapple. Now through the journey of healing and Kaity's own PTSD, she channeled and created what's called somatic yoga therapy, which I can't wait to learn all about today, and somatic yoga therapy is an integrative healing art form that gently and effectively alchemizes trauma into soul power. She has walked countless individuals through their journeys of healing, trauma, anxiety and depression from within. Kaity supports her clients and students to connect with the innate wisdom and intuition of their bodies. This wisdom is present in every body and helps you to organically heal and live in integrity with your soul. Kaity firmly believes that you are your own healer. The somatic yoga therapy process offers you tools, support, guidance, and space for alchemizing blockages and trauma into your greatest gifts and superpowers, but at the end of the day, only you hold the magic of your own healing potential, and this magical healing force lives inside your body awaiting reclamation.

Alyssa Scolari [01:46]:

So I am really looking forward to this conversation and again, I'm just going to thank Kaity for her grace in rescheduling multiple times, so hi Kaity. Thank you for being here and thank you for your patience with me.

Kaity Rose Holsapple [01:59]:

Absolutely. I am so excited that we are able to connect here and now.

Alyssa Scolari [02:05]:

Me too, and I was doing a lot of reading on your website and just reading your bio, there's so many of these phrases that pop out to me. So of course the first question that I want to ask you is can you give us a little bit of backstory? What exactly led you to the place that you are now? I know you mentioned in your bio that you have PTSD, so if you wouldn't mind like elaborating a little bit, only what you're comfortable with of course.

Kaity Rose Holsapple [02:36]:

Totally. So really what brought me ... It was kind of like first being brought into the world of spirituality and yoga and then diving more deeply into psychology and trauma healing from there and what really drew me into especially yoga practices was just how disconnected I was from my body and I went through probably most of my life since a pretty early childhood event that I only just started to remember really recently only have these memories come back in the past couple of months. I realized I just have been dissociated and really out of body for so long in my life and yoga is a practice that really started to bring me back home to being more comfortable in my own skin and feeling actually like one of my first in my body moments that I remember was in a restorative yoga class and it was me just accessing my parasympathetic nervous system state but it was the first time I had done that in probably 14 years and I was in awe and shocked and didn't have really the words or language for it at the time but I was like, "Whoa. Something's really powerful here for me to continue to explore."

Kaity Rose Holsapple [03:57]:

And so that's really what brought me in and then starting to look deeper and connect more deeply with my body is also what started to really help me unravel some of the early childhood trauma and then trauma from later on in life as well and it's been quite a powerful journey.

Alyssa Scolari [04:19]:

Yeah. You touched on so many things there, but I'm going to jump right to can you actually give the listeners a little idea on what restorative yoga is because friends, if you have not done restorative yoga, I'm going to need you to drop everything and find a class. Because it is surely the best thing ever. So can you please tell us what that is?

Kaity Rose Holsapple [04:50]:

Yeah. So usually when we think about yoga, we think of a Vinyasa flow class or core power, very heated, fast, lots of breath work and movements and restorative yoga is really quite the opposite of that. A lot of uses of blankets and pillows and props and putting yourself into these really comfortable positions and shapes where you feel super supported and hopefully are able to drop into again that parasympathetic nervous system state, rest and digest and really a big intention of it is to create almost like a floating feeling in the body, just being really held and relaxed and for certain bodies, it's like, "Yes. So, so, so powerful," and you also now that for especially those of us survivors who have more of the hyper vigilant lean, it can be actually more challenging than going to a Vinyasa yoga class because it's so hard for many people to learn how to really slow down and drop in and let themselves be held. It's like one of the hardest things for our nervous systems to do sometimes and so medicinal, so powerful.

Alyssa Scolari [06:06]:

Yes, and you make an absolute excellent point, which is restorative yoga requires a lot more stillness and that can be as we know very, very difficult for lots of trauma survivors. So while yes, absolutely, I highly recommend restorative yoga, but take that with a grain of salt because you want to be careful to not overwhelm yourself. Sometimes when we are still, it's hard enough to be still but then sometimes when we are still, things come up and we can be flooded with flashbacks or body memories or what have you. So it's also like a really important point and then ...

Alyssa Scolari [06:48]:

So the other thing that you had said is that you had felt so disconnected from your body and that is really important because that is what trauma causes us to do. Trauma causes us to disconnect and we are essentially walking around with our heads detached from our bodies and I was listening to a podcast interview that was done with Bessel van der Kolk who is the author of The Body Keeps the Score and one of the leading experts in trauma and he said, which really struck a chord with me, that Western culture is so disembodied, and I felt like that it really struck a chord because I'm like, "Yeah. So much about it is like he said from the chin up. It's talk therapy, it's taking medications, and that's it." But we tend to neglect the somatic experiences that are happening in our body which I think are vital for healing. What are some of your thoughts on that?

Kaity Rose Holsapple [08:03]:

Yeah. I love that you brought in that piece around culture because that feels ... It's so true, it's in the air that we breathe, it's in the food that we eat. In the most part if you're a Westerner listening to this which I would guess a lot of the audience listening to this is from maybe the United States or more similar cultures to the United States, it's like ... That's just the norm for so many of us and [inaudible 00:08:28] is to actually disassociate and to live more in the realm of kind of the thinking mind rather than the feeling and the being midst and so that's part of why yoga has been so healing and is so healing for so many people because it's the opposite of that, and also all these somatic therapies that we see emerging and having so much power nowadays are helping our Western bodies really, really learn how to access the state of healing.

Kaity Rose Holsapple [09:04]:

Because healing isn't able to happen on that thinking level of consciousness. It's incompatible with the healing state when we're in our thinking mind. It's just not really ... There's not compatibility there, because healing has to happen in the present moment and thinking automatically is taking you out of the present moment. So dropping into the somatic state is actually dropping into a presence practice that helps you be with what's here and now, and that's the only time healing can happen is in the here and in the now.

Alyssa Scolari [09:39]:

I love that. It's so important.

Kaity Rose Holsapple [09:41]:

Yeah.

Alyssa Scolari [09:42]:

So important. So now how is ... Because you created somatic yoga therapy. Can you describe what exactly is that? How is that different from standard therapy? Or standard yoga I should say?

Kaity Rose Holsapple [09:59]:

Absolutely. Yeah, so yoga therapy in itself is kind of this emerging field. Not a lot of people have heard of it generally, right? And it's this practice of really modifying different aspects of the yoga tradition, including the asana which is what a lot of us think of when we think about yoga, the different postures and shapes we put our bodies in but there's also like a whole world of other depth there as well. We do pranayama breath work practices, energy practices. There's a whole lot there and it's about really customizing those practices for the individual at hand. So rather than you going to a yoga class where the whole group is taught the same sequence, this is like what's really happening, Alyssa, for you and your body today, and creating a specified practice, yoga, meditation, pranayama, asana, et cetera, that's just 100% completely to support you in regaining balance, and it's really, really beautiful, really, really powerful, can sometimes feel a little bit allopathic from my perspective, a little bit like Westernized in some ways and really a huge effort of bringing this into the hospitals and the medical system.

Kaity Rose Holsapple [11:21]:

Really beautiful, really powerful, and so with somatic yoga therapy, it includes that aspect of yoga therapy but it's dropping a little bit of the ways that we can sometimes label this is the yoga practice for anxiety or this is what you do for high blood pressure and really tuning into actually what each individual body is guiding and needing which actually can look very, very different, even inside those diagnoses of like ... You might have anxiety, I might have anxiety, but actually what we really need might be completely different on more of those subtle levels. So yeah, it's really accessing the felt sense space, that present moment space of connecting with sensations in the body and then supporting the release of blocked energy so that you can regain balance and heal from within, inside out. Rather than again, what our culture can be so addicted to is I feel like crap or shit, sorry if your podcast doesn't like swears.

Alyssa Scolari [12:23]:

Oh no, be careful on this podcast. It's fine.

Kaity Rose Holsapple [12:25]:

Okay, great. I feel like shit. Tell me what to do to make it better. Right? Just I need someone to tell me what I need to do. It's dropping that need for outer authority and really learning how to access your own inner guide, your own inner intuition, and the ability that we all have, which is to know what you need. To know what you need in order to heal.

Alyssa Scolari [12:51]:

I love that so much. It's important because everybody's healing is so individualized. Like you said, we both might have anxiety but what we might need to heal may be completely different. But I also love that because it's very empowering, and trauma often leaves us feeling disempowered. So it's truly taking your healing into your own hands, and knowing that you already have the answers to the questions that you have and the support that you seek is all within you.

Kaity Rose Holsapple [13:27]:

Yeah. And this is really hard for someone who's survived trauma, right? Because you ask someone who's been through a traumatic experience even the question of what do you want to do today or what do you like, and sometimes it's so hard to answer those simple questions of making those choices of what do I like, what do I want to do, because we can be really fragmented from that wisdom. Again, that comes back to that sense of being more in our mental body rather than in our physical body which is the realm that can actually tell us what we want, what we like, what feels good, what needs to happen. You can't do that from the mental space. It just can't happen from that brain space.

Alyssa Scolari [14:07]:

Right, we need to be mind-body connected. We need to be absolutely grounded in our bodies in order to be able to figure that out and answer so many of those questions that ... And those questions are important when it comes to friendships, relationships, just social interactions in general, but even other things like job interviews. One of the first questions that we ask people when we are interviewing them for a position is, "Tell me about yourself." But when you have a traumatized individual who has been walking around just in the mental space and has really done no work somatically or in their bodies and is disconnected, how can we expect them to answer that question well? So this is so important for all facets of functioning I think.

Kaity Rose Holsapple [14:55]:

Mm-hmm [affirmative]. Yeah, well that really points to just how connected every single area of our life is. We cannot compartmentalize things in the way again that our culture has really trained us to do for so long. It's like, "I'm going to have my work life here and then my romantic life and then here's my friend life," and really it's just like how you show up in these different areas, it's all so, so connected with your wiring, with your nervous system and it's really powerful to start really looking and doing the work around and in these different realms.

Alyssa Scolari [15:34]:

Yes. It's incredible. It's so powerful. Now you mentioned ... I cannot remember if this was the exact phrase that you used, but something ... You said something like ... Was it blocked energies?

Kaity Rose Holsapple [15:48]:

Yep.

Alyssa Scolari [15:50]:

Can you explain, can you elaborate on what that is?

Kaity Rose Holsapple [15:55]:

Yes.

Alyssa Scolari [15:56]:

Because I feel like that's very important.

Kaity Rose Holsapple [15:58]:

So let's talk about this because it is really important. This is like totally how I see things now, it's like ... Blocked energies, you can think of trauma as like this spectrum with most severe being like actual diagnosis, like PTSD, CPTSD and just like the very intense symptoms that you think of with trauma, like flashbacks and very, very obvious forms of dissociation, depersonalization, those sort of aspects, right? And then we have all of these other different forms of trauma that show up in really, really subtle and sometimes a little insidious forms and I would say the spectrum is the spectrum of blocked energy. Where trauma and blocked energy can really be synonymously used because what is happening when there's a trauma in the system, in your energy body, there becomes kind of a knot that happens where the energy ties itself up and is no longer flowing, so there is stagnation that happens, and when that happens, of course you're cut off from your own energy flow, so there's not as much feeling of aliveness, sensation even. This can create numbness, a cutting off from different areas of the body.

Kaity Rose Holsapple [17:19]:

Also just feeling like really lethargic, really tired, and so looking at and thinking of trauma as not just something that happens in the physical body but actually something that's really affecting the energetics, and a great way of looking at this is also ... If we come back to what happens in the breath when there's then trauma and how our breath physiologically starts to change because the breath is kind of the gateway between the physical and the energetic body because there's a connection here between we can have conscious control of our breath if we just all take a deep breath right here and now, you can choose to consciously do that, and you know that you're always going to be breathing. Even if you're not telling yourself to, right? So there's this really deep connection between the breath, which in yoga is really deeply connected with the energy body, with their prana, life force, and the subconscious mind which is the realm that stores traumas and so we just think about in a traumatic experience, for example something shocking happens and you gasp and your breath is kind of stuck up here and then that's kind of how the energy can start to get stuck and all of a sudden, or actually over quite a period of time, we develop patterns such as just chest breathing and no longer have access to a deep diaphragmatic breath anymore.

Kaity Rose Holsapple [18:47]:

And so that's kind of a more physiological way we can start to see the energy body being really affected is just by looking at changes that happen in breath and breathing, but also it's happening in this really subtle way that's not perceptible really to the human eye but is really connected with felt sense, sensations, and what you notice as sensation in your body. And so starting to work with somatics is also taking you deep into the realm of energetics and the energy body in a pretty powerful, really, really powerful way.

Alyssa Scolari [19:21]:

Yeah. Yeah, so this process basically goes hand and hand with energy work. Because I hear this phrase so often, right? Energy work, energy work, and I feel like it's now becoming more and more linked to trauma. It's all energy.

Alyssa Scolari [19:37]:

Now I want to take this one step further and ask you your thoughts on when we have chronic energy blocks, you named some of the ways in which that can show up, but ... And I feel like I already know the answer to this because you also ... I heard the podcast interview that you had done about the link between rosacea and trauma. So is it your opinion or your belief that when these energy blocks become chronic and constant, they can lead into more serious illnesses, autoimmune diseases, things like that?

Kaity Rose Holsapple [20:21]:

Mm-hmm [affirmative]. Yes. Yeah, so it's really fascinating to look at this. In yoga, we have something called the kosha model which is talking about the different bodies. Like we have our physical body, we have this physical body that is blood, muscle, bone, skin, and then there are other bodies as well, like one of which is the breath body which holds your prana, your energy, and then you also have your mind, the body of your mind which is composed of your thoughts and your emotions and you also have the body of your beliefs and your belief system which you may or may not know, those of you listening, like some of those are not always what we would consciously want and choose to believe. We have beliefs that are really, really rooted in our childhood, especially the first seven years of our lives and our culture and things that we might not actually really want to believe in the subconscious mind are beliefs stored up, right? And so all of these bodies are really always intermingling and influencing one another.

Kaity Rose Holsapple [21:28]:

So an example of this is I can have this belief, I might not even know I have it. I could have this belief let's say for example around what a body is supposed to look like, what a beautiful female body is supposed to look like. And it might not be consciously what I think beauty is, but I have this belief that I'm only beautiful if I am only 120 pounds. It's like something that doesn't even necessarily have to make a lot of cognitive sense, but we have these. So let's say -

Alyssa Scolari [22:01]:

Right, it's not something that has to be backed by science. It's just if that's your belief, it's your belief.

Kaity Rose Holsapple [22:06]:

Right yeah. And you might not even really know it's there, which I think is also something really, really interesting. Because these beliefs that we have really run our lives in unconscious ways until we start to really see them. That's one of the definitions of yoga is bringing the unconscious to your consciousness, and once things become conscious, that's healing in itself, right? Just being able to see that okay, this is here, and it's not exactly in line with what my soul really believes, but it's here. This is part of my conditioning, right?

Kaity Rose Holsapple [22:39]:

So we have this belief, let's use the one that I gave an example on, which is like I'm only beautiful if I am 120 pounds or something kind of specific and based around your body like that. And then connected with that belief, there's all of the thoughts and emotions that we have, which might be looking at yourself in the mirror and feeling shame. It might be those negative thoughts that cycle in your head, all the ways that you tell yourself you're not good enough, you're not beautiful enough. A lot of I feel more New Age spirituality works in this level of affirmation, where we just start to tell ourselves, "I am beautiful. I love myself." But again, it stays in that mental level, so it's never really becoming true and real in your body, in your bones.

Alyssa Scolari [23:30]:

Right, we're never really absorbing it.

Kaity Rose Holsapple [23:34]:

Yeah. Exactly, even though those affirmations can feel really helpful in the moment, it's not actually getting to the root of what's really there.

Alyssa Scolari [23:42]:

Thank you, [inaudible 00:23:43], I am a little bit ... I'm not anti-affirmations, like yes please hype yourself up, but I am just like, "It's not enough." And I like that you're saying that because when we sort of say things like, "Well you just need to do your affirmations," I think it takes away from it makes people feel like, "Oh, what's wrong with me? Like I'm doing my affirmations, I literally have you are beautiful on my mirror and I say it every time when I wake up," and it's like it's not enough because you're not fully integrating it. Like it's just in your brain and then it kind of leaves. So I love that you said that, but you go on. I didn't mean to totally interrupt.

Kaity Rose Holsapple [24:24]:

No, I love that too, and it's like also ... What about all of the parts inside of you that don't believe that and don't feel that way and now you're just kind of overriding those and not really attending to what's really there, like what's the trauma there that those parts are really holding? Because there's a ... Even though it feels shitty, there's a wisdom to those thoughts. Like there's something in there that's actually really important to extract and to move towards, I really believe that. So we have this level of belief, then we have this level of thought and emotion that can manifest from our beliefs, right? So the beliefs are very, very deep, very, very unconscious, and then they can start to manifest into thoughts and into emotion which directly affects the energetics of the body. Think of the last time you had a negative thought about yourself, like, "I look ugly," or whatever that thought is for you, it's going to change how you're breathing. It changes your breath patterns.

Kaity Rose Holsapple [25:23]:

So that's again a more obvious way that the energy starts to change. But it's also going to change the posture, like how you hold yourself, which again is going to affect the flow of chi, the flow of energy through the body. It's going to affect the felt sense, you might have this heavy, dropped feeling in your belly which again that's a way the energy body is communicating to you is through sensations. And then eventually years of me holding my body in this slumped position of this energy communicating in this way and me not actually being able to discharge it, being able to let it flow through me, being able to affirm and acknowledge it but in a way that allows it to fully, fully complete what it's trying to do rather than what we commonly do is, "I don't like this, eew, icky, I'm going to move away from it and try to shove it down." Right?

Alyssa Scolari [26:20]:

Exactly. I'm going to [inaudible 00:26:22]. Yeah.

Kaity Rose Holsapple [26:23]:

Yeah, yeah. It's what we are commonly doing. And again, this might not be conscious. You might know consciously that that's not super great for you and we still do it and it's just like a habit. So after long periods of time of these avoidance patterns, the energy gets stuck in these different regions and can manifest as skin issues, digestive issues, chronic pain. Pain is hugely connected with this. Anyone who has chronic low back pain, I've struggled a lot with jaw pain. Like this is just so rooted and connected here, and then of course other forms of disease and imbalance start to form as well. So that's kind of like the pathway of how this can happen is starting with for example a traumatic experience that imprints this really deep belief. That belief starts to change how we think and how we feel inside, which influences the sensations and the breath which influences our body.

Alyssa Scolari [27:25]:

Okay. Okay. That makes a lot of sense to me. Yeah, and I 100% believe that. I was just like ... I know at least for the work that I do, every single person who comes into my office, it's so ... I love the somatic work. Like it is so important because yeah, I do believe that so much pain, chronic pain, back pain. Like I had a lot of jaw pain too. I actually went to the dentist a few months back and the dentist was like, "Do you grind your teeth?" And I was like, "No." And I was so detached from my body, I was very stressed out, we had just moved, and I couldn't even feel. I was so out of touch with my body. In the six months between my dentist appointments, I had been grinding my teeth so much that I actually have permanent damage and I didn't even know but the second that he said something to me, I was sitting in his chair, had not even left the office yet, I felt all the pain and all the tension in my jaw. And I'm like, "Wow."

Alyssa Scolari [28:41]:

So I think that's just like a great example of how disembodied we can become without even truly knowing it, which is why this information and this practice I think has to be very, very intentional, all the time. Not just when you're feeling extra down that day. Would you agree with that?

Kaity Rose Holsapple [29:02]:

Yeah. Absolutely, and a huge part of the somatic yoga therapy practice is building relationship and awareness of your body. Even just ... If you're wanting to get started with more of this work, doing a daily body scan practice where you're just making contact with all of the different areas of the body, that's really, really helpful for this part of the nervous system that ... Like your story, not even realizing how much tension you hold in your jaw, it's like ... There's a reason the nervous system doesn't want to go there and it's because maybe there's something there that feels a little bit like scary or too much or it's holding onto something, right? And so there are reasons that we check out from these different areas of the body, even ones that are causing us pain and oftentimes that quality of dissociating from different body regions is really connected with the pain receptors and they get louder and louder so that we start to listen and hear what they're really trying to say. So if someone who has chronic pain comes to me, I know that there's often also been chronic numbness before that pain even started.

Alyssa Scolari [30:14]:

Yes. Yes. You put that so beautifully. Now you also mentioned this concept, soul power. What does that mean? Like can you explain that? I love it, like soul power, yes, but what exactly does that mean?

Kaity Rose Holsapple [30:34]:

Yeah. That is you living in alignment with the strength and the truth and the energy that only comes from the space of your soul. So this is beyond any trauma that you have experienced, this is your essence that is untouchable, can't get sick, can't die, lives on forever. This is the part of you that is always 100% pure, sparkly, bright. Like it's your youness, everybody's soul is completely like a unique expression. I like to think of people's different souls as really connected with different plants or different spaces in nature that have ... There's different qualities to them, right? Like someone might have a very waterfall, sweet, nourishing, grounded soul. Someone might have more of a fiery quality in them, and so it's unique, it's connected with your personality, but it's beyond that and trauma severs your connection with that. Severs your ability for your soul, the energy gets blocked, and then that can no longer flow in your body and so what often happens for traumatized individuals, it's not that your soul ever goes anywhere. It's not that you lose it, though that's something that we feel right? If you've ever had that sense of soul searching or really deep longing to feel like yourself again, like that's what you are longing for.

Kaity Rose Holsapple [32:03]:

What happens with trauma is that the soul can become displaced from the body and it kind of starts to just hover outside of the body or outside of the energy field because trauma is so connected with death experiences or feeling like, "Oh my god, I am going to die. I think I'm going to die here." It doesn't matter what type of trauma it was, there's some sort of fear for your life that happens and just like in death, the soul leaves the body. So you might not actually have died, you might not have actually died, but some processes and parts of you think that maybe you had or you're about to or it's going to happen and in order to protect this space inside of you that is the most powerful, beautiful and whole aspect of yourself, it's an act of protection that gets kind of pushed away. There's a lot of different reasons for that.

Kaity Rose Holsapple [32:56]:

It might feel like it's really scary to be my full soulful self. It might feel like too intense in some ways and so the soul becomes kind of disconnected or dissociated. We build up walls and then forget that it's even actually really there but a huge part of the somatic yoga therapy process is detangling these energetic blocks so that the energy can start to move more freely in the body, discharging energy that's just not yours. Like it's not really in alignment with you and who you are, it's heavy, it's stagnant, it's like ... Maybe it belongs to past versions of yourself, but it's not your present moment's energy, and then when there's more of that space and flow inside of you, the soul gets to come back home, and all of a sudden, you feel like, "Wow. I'm having these moments where I really feel like me. I really feel alive, I really feel like myself."

Kaity Rose Holsapple [33:51]:

And that is the process of alchemizing trauma into soul power and bringing your soul back [inaudible 00:33:59] in an embodied way where you don't have to meditate, which meditation can actually be kind of a way of dissociating a lot of the time. When we meditate, we meditate to access that soul space. In order to access that sense of feeling one with the universe, whatever language you use, but through this process, that becomes just how you live your life. You feel connected with that space and you don't have to go anywhere in order to do that. It just becomes woven into your embodied experience.

Alyssa Scolari [34:31]:

Yeah. This is incredible. I'm learning so much, so I have to ask, so the somatic yoga therapy. Is that specifically a different type of training or is it that you became certified in yoga or yoga or yoga therapy and then sort of developed your somatic yoga therapy? How did that work?

Kaity Rose Holsapple [34:57]:

Yes, yeah. Yeah, so I did undergo my yoga therapy training, and during that process, had this pretty ... Actually probably at the end of this process, had a really intense traumatic experience, a sexual trauma with a former colleague, a former friend of mine and it wasn't like the first time I had been sexually violated by any means, but it was the first conscious time that I had where I was really, really conscious and aware of what was happening and so that really launched me into this journey of healing PTSD which all of that experience very much triggered my early childhood stuff that I had not really ...

Kaity Rose Holsapple [35:37]:

I hadn't had the resources or tools to look at up until that point, and so that experience really launched me, even though I was already working with trauma, from this more allopathic or yoga therapy lens, I've been working in that way, this launched me deeper into the world and realm of somatics because that was what was working for me and that was what was healing me. So somatic yoga therapy really came from that process of me doing my own healing journey and there are different forms of somatic yoga therapies that I have had experience with from somatic experiencing to sensory motor to Hakomi and I think they're all so beautiful and so powerful, and for me, bringing the yoga therapy piece in was like the missing link there and it's just what my body was naturally doing because I am such a spiritually inclined person and I really believe that that ... Like your soul is your greatest resource for healing. That's the one in you who can digest fricking anything that's happened. No matter how heavy it is, that's the part of you that can handle it. No other parts are able to be with the traumas in that same way and so yeah.

Kaity Rose Holsapple [36:57]:

That's really where this work was born from is just my own body started to create it and I was already working with clients and so I just started naturally bringing in what was arising and unfolding for me and it was having such great results that I just continued and now I'm training others in this process of somatic yoga therapy. I have a whole yearlong training that I do for people to connect with this work more deeply and learn how to weave into their healing modalities, whatever it is that they're doing. Whether that's yoga therapy, yoga teaching, psychotherapy, massage therapy, it really is so complementary to so many different healing modalities and that's what I'm doing now is training others to help get this work out there.

Alyssa Scolari [37:45]:

That is amazing. So that's ... I mean one, thank you very much for sharing and for being so vulnerable because it's like that is ultimately, and while we never wish trauma of any nature on anyone, it's like that catapulted you into now being this driving force for helping, now you're training people who can then go on to help other people and that is so empowering. So empowering. So you are ... You're training other people and are you also working with people one-on-one, hosting retreats? What else is there to that?

Kaity Rose Holsapple [38:29]:

Yeah, so I do work with people one-on-one and do somatic yoga therapy work for helping my clients digest trauma into more soul power and also access deeper states of pleasure and purpose and meaning in their lives after a traumatic experience because that can feel so severed. Definitely have a draw and attract a lot of women who have survived sexual traumas and want to start really metabolizing those so that they can feel more empowered in their sexuality again, more connected with their sexuality and with their essential self because that is so important for so many women and so disconnected, just like we talked about you with the jaws, like we can think of the same area sexually and there's a lot of numbness, there's a lot of pain, there's a lot of shutdown. So I do work one-on-one with people in that region, in that area, and then yeah, I run retreats and workshops and have a lot of different free resources too on my website that I would invite any listeners who kind of feels connected with this work to check that out. There is a free inner sanctuary practice which is a whole I think 45 minute practice where I guide you through some of the foundations of what we're doing in somatic yoga therapy and more of just like you get to experience it within, inside your own self, so that's on my website.

Alyssa Scolari [40:03]:

And your website is hertemplehealing.com, right?

Kaity Rose Holsapple [40:08]:

Yes. Yep. You got it.

Alyssa Scolari [40:10]:

Okay. I got it. Fantastic. So for the listeners out there, you can just go ahead and you know what to do. Go right to the show notes and you will find the link there. Strongly encourage you to check that out. I will definitely be utilizing all of the resources on there because I love this topic and I love this stuff and I am very passionate about it. Thank you so much for sharing your expertise. It is crucial for trauma survivors. It's so crucial, so thank you, thank you, thank you for your time today.

Kaity Rose Holsapple [40:45]:

Thank you for having me on, Alyssa. I'm just delighted to have talked with you.

Alyssa Scolari [40:50]:

Thank you.

Alyssa Scolari [40:52]:

Thanks for listening everyone. For more information, please head over to lightaftertrauma.com, or you can also follow us on social media, on Instagram. We are @lightaftertrauma and on Twitter it is @lightafterpod. Lastly, please head over to patreon.com/lightaftertrauma to support our show. We are asking for five dollars a month, which is the equivalent to a cup of coffee at Starbucks. So please head on over again, that's patreon.com/lightaftertrauma. Thank you and we appreciate your support.

Endometriosis is an excruciatingly painful disease that is common among those with female reproductive organs, yet, there is little awareness on the subject. If you've ever had extremely painful periods but have been told to just take birth control, then this week's episode is for you! Alyssa breaks down what endometriosis is and shares her own personal battle with this disease.

Check out the Light After Trauma website for transcripts, other episodes, Alyssa's guest appearances, and more at: www.lightaftertrauma.com

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Transcript:

Alyssa Scolari [00:23]:

Hey, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of the Light After Trauma podcast. I'm your host, Alyssa Scolari. We've got a solo episode coming at you today. Thank you for your patience and grace last week. Last week was the first time that we recycled an older episode. I mean, I thought it was a good episode. It's really kind of timeless that episode where it was, my husband and I talking about how he supports me through my journey to recovery from complex trauma. I think it's a really, really important episode. I apologize. Obviously, these things might happen every once in a while. Thank you so much for your grace and understanding.

Alyssa Scolari [01:13]:

I know I popped on at the beginning of last week's episode to just say, "Hey. Had a really bad week. Didn't get a chance to do everything that we needed to, to put out this new episode," but I wanted to elaborate a little bit more on that today. We're talking about, as you can tell from the title, we're talking about endometriosis today. We talked about PCOS a few weeks ago or probably over a month ago at this point. PCOS is a hormonal disorder. Well, it's much more complicated than that. Go listen to that episode of Julie Duffy Dillon. She was amazing at explaining exactly what PCOS is but we are talking about endometriosis today.

Alyssa Scolari [02:02]:

Endometriosis is kind of like the, I think, less talked about and less diagnosed female reproductive disorder or disease because it is a disease. I had no idea that I had endometriosis until recently. In fact, it hasn't been 100% confirmed yet. I will explain. I'll explain in a little bit but let's talk about what it is because through my experience in this process, so many people have heard of it. They've heard of the name but I've had a lot of people be like, "Oh, I've heard of that before but I don't exactly know what that is. What is it?" Lots of people have heard of the name endometriosis, but not a whole lot of people actually know what it is. I am getting some information and some statistics off of womenshealth.gov, where it talks about specifically what this disease is.

Alyssa Scolari [03:07]:

Endometriosis happens when tissue that is similar to the lining of the uterus grows outside of the uterus. It doesn't really sound that scary but basically, what happens is, and my surgeon actually described it as like, the word that you use for lesions, where this tissue grows in places where this tissue should not be. It can grow outside of the uterus. It can grow on the ovaries. It can grow on the fallopian tubes. It can grow on the tissues that hold the uterus in place. It can be all over the outer surface of the uterus and it also can spread to your intestines. It can also spread to your bladder. This is a nasty, nasty disease. Again, extra tissue growing, okay, what does that really mean?

Alyssa Scolari [04:11]:

What that means is excruciating pain. When I say excruciating, I almost feel like I have to, I almost feel like I haven't gas lit so much by medical professionals that I almost feel like I have to say this, when I say excruciating, I think you all should know, I have a very, very high pain tolerance, so when I say that this is hands down the worst pain I've ever felt in my entire existence, I am being 100% serious. In fact, I actually saw something and I can't remember or I would tell you, I think it was on Instagram, I saw something a few weeks ago that said, "Endometriosis is actually one of the most painful disorders that any person can have or the most painful diseases that any person can have."

Alyssa Scolari [05:04]:

Just to give you an idea of why having that extra tissue is truly and utterly debilitating. It causes pain. This isn't just pain when you get your period. Oh, no. This is pain when you don't have your period, this is pain during ovulation, you could have pain when you go to the bathroom, you can have pain on just a random Tuesday afternoon when you're trying to do your job. This isn't the case for everybody who has endometriosis. There are different stages of it. I'm not going to go into that but there are different stages of it and it also depends on where on your body the endometriosis is, but that's what it can look like.

Alyssa Scolari [05:50]:

It can look like really heavy periods. It can also look like infertility. It can look like a lot of stomach and digestive problems, chronic fatigue, issues with hormones, you name it. Basically, endometriosis causes it. Chronic inflammation, which I have had and I have struggled with so much is inflammation like. I always use this as an example, for the last several years, particularly the last two years, I would say, my body becomes so randomly inflamed that my wedding rings actually don't fit me anymore. It's not a matter of like weight gain, yes, of course, I've put on a weight since I got married but the rings that I have fit me when I'm not inflamed but my body will randomly become so inflamed and so swollen that I will look down and notice that my finger, my ring finger is purple.

Alyssa Scolari [06:57]:

I could have had a day where I didn't eat. Lots of people love to say, "Oh, well, what did you eat?" These salty foods, first of all, it doesn't work like that. Thinking that you are going to be extremely, extremely bloated to the point where nothing will fit after you eat salty foods is kind of along the lines of diet culture. Of course, we expect some bloating with higher sodium foods but I digress that as a topic for another time and one which I've surely talked about on the podcast before.

Alyssa Scolari [07:29]:

Lots of inflammation I have had and I was on, so when I was 19 years old, I want to say, I went on birth control because my cramps were so severe. I remember as a child, just or teenager, what have you, I remember just sitting on my bed in the fetal position, rocking back and forth saying, "Why? Why? Why? Why does this hurt so bad? What's wrong with me?" The pain was very severe when I was younger. I was 19. I was, that was what, 10 years ago because I'm yeah, I'm 29 now. It was 10 years ago. I went to the doctor for it and of course, all that we knew back then, 10 years ago, which was like, just go on the pill. Go on birth control. That's what I did because that's what everybody did, right? My family had a history of painful periods. It was sort of just like, "Well, this is what we do. We put you on the pill."

Alyssa Scolari [08:40]:

Now, fast forward five, six years, and the pill, I ended up seeing this psychiatrist at the time who, she was amazing and she was incredibly holistic. She ended up teaching me a little bit more about my moods on the pill. I was incredibly, incredibly depressed and also very, very angry. I'll get into how angry I was in a little bit but she was telling me that the pill can contribute to all of these things and I had no idea that birth control could cause my mood to get so bad. I feel like it's kind of common knowledge now but I am telling you, I don't know if I was just oblivious, I did not know this and no doctor ever told me that my mood would be affected by birth control.

Alyssa Scolari [09:39]:

When I say that I was like angry, I mean, I have memories of even just a few years ago, maybe three years ago with my husband, it would be the week before my period and I would rage, like snapping at everybody, and I wasn't able to control it. That's the thing. What I realized is that with your period when you're off the pill, yes, you have these mood swings still, but they're not as severe, they are more manageable and in my opinion, much easier to control.

Alyssa Scolari [10:25]:

When I was on the pill, and I should tell you that I have been on probably five different versions of the pill across my lifetime, all the time, every time I was in such a rage. I remember, it's actually a little hard to admit this, but it's the truth and it's honestly not my fault but I don't know, here we go. I mean, I remember like, having a breakdown one night when I was with David, and I just started punching the bed and taking the bed and screaming at the top of my lungs. I got on top of the bed and I just started hitting the bed over and over and over again, until I ran out of steam. That's just not me. I don't know. I have a lot of anger but I'm very good and always have been very good at using my anger productively.

Alyssa Scolari [11:36]:

One of my aunts used to tell me that I was really, really good at telling people to go to hell, while making people feel like they just got told to have a wonderful day, because I'm really, really good with my words and I'm very good at controlling my anger and using it in an appropriate way to set boundaries, to tell people how I feel appropriately, et cetera. For me to be hitting and screaming, and kicking and punching was honestly just not normal for me.

Alyssa Scolari [12:11]:

I know it got so bad and I remember that moment specifically, I was just screaming like, I want to die, I want to die, I want to die. I truthfully didn't understand why. I had so many good things going for me in that moment. There was no logical reason why I wanted to end my life in that moment but I was just in such a blinding rage. That's not the only time. That's just one example.

Alyssa Scolari [12:39]:

I do remember this other argument I had with my mom and it was about something, I don't even know, it was something like trivial and I remember taking my key, the key to my car, which is like, those things are electronic these days and I slammed it down on the hardwood floor and it shattered everywhere.

Alyssa Scolari [13:04]:

I am not a violent person. I am a lover not a fighter. Anyone who knows me knows that but I was raging and it was horrendous. When I was seeing the psychiatrist, the psychiatrist, I actually while I was on the pill, my periods were a little bit better, they still were in great. I was still waking up in a lot of pain, having a lot of cramps, having to take 800 milligrams of Advil every, I think four to six hours, which was a lot on my body and I definitely should not have been taking but hey, what did I know? I just thought I was somebody who had bad periods.

Alyssa Scolari [13:49]:

It was my mood though, that was the really, really difficult for, the most difficult thing for me to manage at that time. I was seeing a psychiatrist a few years ago and she was like, "Look, I don't know if you know this, but the pill can cause X, Y & Z mood symptoms, a lot of rage, a lot of suicidality, desires for self-harm, lots of depression, et cetera." She was like, "I think this might be what's contributing to some of your mood issues." Obviously, I have depression outside of that. Obviously, I have anger and anxiety outside of that, but she really thought that the pill was contributing to my mood.

Alyssa Scolari [14:31]:

I came off the pill, literally not thinking it would be a big deal. This had to be, I've been off the pill now for over a year at this point. Well, I was off the pill. I'll get into that. I came off the pill. Nothing would be an issue. What started happening is I would get my period, now, I was getting my period while on the pill, you get it like every 28 days is your cycle, off the pill, my cycle was like 20, 21 days, so I was getting my period every three weeks. Every month, it was getting worse and worse, and worse.

Alyssa Scolari [15:11]:

My PMS symptoms were getting pretty bad. They were not nearly as bad as they were on the pill. When my pain became an issue, I was still having increasingly bad PMS symptoms but what was increasing the most for me was the pain with every single period. I was in agony. I remember the first six months, it was like, when I was off the pill for the first six months, I was in pain but it was nothing that Advil, 800 milligrams of Advil every six hours couldn't help to manage. I would still wake up in the middle of the night and then I would have to wait maybe two hours it would take for the Advil to kick in. I would go back to sleep. I just put up with the pain.

Alyssa Scolari [16:02]:

Looking back on it, I just wish that I could tell myself like, "Hey, Alyssa, this isn't okay. If you're having to literally survive on Advil for 48 hours straight just to get through your period every three weeks, we've got an issue here." But that to me was like, okay, I can manage this but then the pain continued to get worse and I would say now over the last six months, it became unbearable.

Alyssa Scolari [16:34]:

The month before we moved, we were packing. I remember because we had boxes everywhere and I got my period. I was in such excruciating pain that I actually started hitting myself in my uterus, which I know can sound a little bit disturbing but I was in relentless, excruciating agony. It felt like somebody was taking a knife and just carving out my womb. I don't even know how else to describe it. I ended up getting angry because the pain was coming every three weeks at this point. It was not subsiding. I did not know what to do. I was just beside myself.

Alyssa Scolari [17:26]:

My doctors had just kept telling me, because at this point, I started to talk to people about what was happening and my doctors were just kind of like, "Oh, just take Advil. You'll be fine. Oh, just take Advil. Oh, you just have a bad period. Oh, do you want to go back on the pill?" I was like, "Well, no. I can't go back on the pill because I've tried five different versions of the pill and they all make me suicidal."

Alyssa Scolari [17:53]:

That night, things kind of came to a head and I just started honestly punching my uterus, and I had bruises for weeks to come. It actually really upsets me to even talk about it. I probably will get quite emotional throughout this episode because it's been quite a journey to try to get help for myself. This was probably June, because it was right before we made the move.

Alyssa Scolari [18:22]:

July, I had severe pain again. August, even worse pain. September or August, I actually think I had to miss a block... We had a block party, right? We were new to the neighborhood. We have the best neighbors ever. Our neighbors were having a block party and they had like a prep night where everybody was kind of going over to this one person's house and they were going to talk about all the things we were going to bring and whatever. I wanted to go because it was my chance to meet people and to get to know my neighbors. I got my period and I was in so much pain. I could not go.

Alyssa Scolari [19:05]:

August came I missed that. September came, got my period, had to miss a wedding. I actually RSVP'd yes to go to a wedding and I could not go. I was a no show, which I feel terrible for. It's like really hard for me to tell people, "Oh yeah, I have period cramps," because that doesn't do it justice. I could not go to the wedding. I felt terrible because obviously these people paid for my husband and I to be there but I was in such excruciating pain. I couldn't go.

Alyssa Scolari [19:42]:

At this point, as this is going on, I'm realizing that my quality of life is really diminishing, very, very much so. I actually was starting to get pains outside of my period. I was starting to feel these sharp pains actually in my vulva, everything is painful, sex is painful. I was like there is something not right. I went to a new doctor because we move to a new area. I went to this doctor in October, maybe late September, the beginning of October, and was telling her all of my symptoms and was telling her something's not right. We've got to do something. She told me to go back on the pill. I told her, "No."

Alyssa Scolari [20:32]:

I was like, at this point, I had started to really learn about all of the effects of birth control. We are going to talk about that. I actually have a very special guest coming on to talk about birth control. There was an amazing film that premiered at the New York Film Festival. She's going to come on. I am really, really excited to talk about that but that's for another episode. I had already known all of the risks to the pill at this point. I had been doing my own research, learning things that doctors and medical professionals had failed to tell me, which was my right to know. I just said, no, I don't want to go on the pill. She was like, "Well, it's kind of your only option." She was like, "It sounds like you have endometriosis but the only way to diagnose that is through surgery and that's invasive. We can just give you this diagnosis, and you can go on the pill and we'll call it a day."

Alyssa Scolari [21:30]:

Please don't even get me started. That was the worst, one of the worst appointments I've ever had in my life because I was just telling her how much pain I was in and she was like, "Well, why don't you try loading up on Advil the day before you get your period? I have a strong feeling that's going to help you." She wasn't listening. Oh, she also added, "Yeah, this is going to kill your kidneys to do it but honestly, it's just going to keep you out of pain. It will be a hit to your kidneys but it is what it is. Your kidney should bounce back." What? What the fuck?

Alyssa Scolari [22:12]:

I did not like that, didn't like that answer at all and felt extremely unheard. After I got out of there, crying hysterically, I ended up calling my old OB-Gyn in New Jersey, who I liked, I think that she listens to women and validates their pain and I know that she, I think she's a good doctor. I ended up calling her and scheduling an appointment. In the meantime, I had another period and this was the one that honestly, I thought it was going to kill me. I haven't, I mean, I genuinely thought I was going to die.

Alyssa Scolari [22:55]:

This was like October, it was a Columbus Day weekend. I'm going to say around like October 12 or so. The pain woke me up at 1:00 a.m. on a Tuesday and I was screaming and agony until probably 6:00 or 7:00 a.m. I had taken a pain medication, didn't touch it. I was vomiting. I was bleeding extremely heavily. I couldn't stand up. My body was shaking so badly. I actually started to black out. I started to see spots. I thought I was going to pass out. I literally thought I was dying. I have never felt anything like it in my life and I never want to feel anything like it again.

Alyssa Scolari [23:58]:

My husband actually emailed this doctor that I saw in Pennsylvania, which is the state we just moved to and was like, "Hey, this is what's going on. Taking Advil the day before, didn't help. Didn't touch it. This is the worst period she's ever had." At that point, the doctor was like, "Okay, this is sounding like we need to go send you for this, on ultrasound, blah, blah, blah, blah." Well, I had already made an appointment with my doctor in New Jersey.

Alyssa Scolari [24:33]:

Long complicated story short, I got an ultrasound with a transvaginal ultrasound, which is something that they like to do to rule out other things. Endometriosis can sometimes show up on ultrasounds, but it typically does not. It's kind of like a let's rule this out type of thing and make sure that there's nothing else going on. I did that, which was for a sexual abuse survivor, extremely traumatic, to have somebody inserting something. Thankfully, the woman who was doing the ultrasound was extremely compassionate and definitely very, very trauma aware. She asked consent before every move that she made. I cannot say enough good things about her but I had that. The ultrasound showed nothing.

Alyssa Scolari [25:22]:

My OB-Gyn, the one that I like in New Jersey, recommended an endometriosis specialist. She was just like, "This sounds like it's exactly what you have and we are going to send you to this endometriosis surgeon." That was in October, and I called, tried to get in and of course, no appointments were available until December. At that point, I knew I was never going to survive another period like that, because if the pain didn't kill me and endometriosis, the pain can't kill you. It feels like it's going to, but I honestly was becoming very suicidal at being in so much pain. I was worried that I was going to hurt myself as a result of being in so much agony that it just simply wouldn't end.

Alyssa Scolari [26:22]:

I had to make the very difficult decision to go back on the birth control pill. That is what I am on now. It has caused so, so, so many mental health issues for me. I hate it. I hate it. I hate it. I hate it. It has done everything that birth control did for me in the past, in terms of like making me very depressed, making me angry. Now, luckily, I'm taking some more supplements that are supposed to help with the severe mood swings from the pill. This is just a Band-Aid. I don't plan to be on this forever but I've also had, because of how severe the pain is and because of the nature of endometriosis, which by the way, I should mention that endo actually affects about 1 in 10 women. It's likely, well and that's just I should say, that's an American statistics. That's a USA statistic.

Alyssa Scolari [27:23]:

I actually tried to do some research on the statistics for other countries. I found that it's basically the same pretty much anywhere. I know in Australia, I saw that it's a like around 1 in 10 women but that's just what we know. That's just what we know of because the fact of the matter is, women are not taken seriously or as seriously as men are, when it comes to their pain. We are written off as being the weaker sex and our pain is not taken seriously. It takes an average of seven years to get a diagnosis for this disease. That is how long women suffer because women are told to suck it up, to take Pamprin or Midol or Advil or use a heating pad, or whatever the fuck else women are told because their pain is not taken seriously.

Alyssa Scolari [28:14]:

It takes years to get this diagnosis and because women are not taken seriously, I actually suspect that the rate of endometriosis is much higher. Listen, I'm no researcher, I am no scientist, so don't quote me on that but just knowing my experience, and also knowing some of the people that I work with that have pretty severe periods that at this point, have internalized the medical industry gaslighting of like just suck it up, I would say that statistic is actually higher.

Alyssa Scolari [28:48]:

In addition to the pain and having to go back on the birth control, which I'm still in pain, by the way, I actually, being on the pill last night, woke up, was woken up in pain at 4:00 a.m. and was crying and screaming in pain for two hours, which is better than not being on the pills, better than the five or six hours and it isn't a level 10 pain. It's more of like a level seven or eight pain. It's better but it's still completely disrupting my ability to function. When that pain hits, that's it. I can't do anything.

Alyssa Scolari [29:32]:

It has caused me to lose sleep, which has caused me to be sicker. It has caused me to have to take off of work. It has caused me to have to miss out on things. I have had to plan my life around when I'm anticipating I might be in pain and on top of it, it has given me severe gastro issues, severe stomach problems. I can barely eat anything. I don't have an appetite. Everything makes me sick. Everything I put into my stomach bothers me. I'm also weak from not being able to eat a whole lot.

Alyssa Scolari [30:15]:

Actually, my period was so bad a couple months ago that I ended up having what I believe was a stomach ulcer from the stress of being in so much pain. I was vomiting. I couldn't keep anything down. I ended up having to go see a GI doctor, who then did a endoscopy. I had to get put under anesthesia. I had to go have an ultrasound on my stomach, all this shit and I truly didn't know that the stomach issues were a result of the endo but I do know that now. When I say that this disease is debilitating, it is absolutely debilitating and gets worse every single time.

Alyssa Scolari [30:59]:

In terms of what causes it, now, my surgeon told me that an estrogen dominance causes it or can cause it, I do believe that's the case for me because I do have other symptoms of estrogen dominance. What causes an estrogen dominance? Beats the hell out of me, quite frankly. We have a very, what is a common disease, right? One in 10 women, millions of women, and potentially even more suffering from less and the kicker is that there is no cure for this at all. The only way to formally diagnose endometriosis is through a laparoscopic surgery and that is where they kind of scrape it all off.

Alyssa Scolari [31:48]:

Now, I went to go see a surgeon in early December, and I scheduled my surgery. I was told, "Yeah, there is no cure. Pretty much the only treatment is you can get the surgery and you can see if it comes back, sometimes it does. Sometimes it doesn't. You can be on birth control for the rest of your life. You could take other hormonal suppressants for the rest of your life or you can get a hysterectomy," which was devastating news and continues to be devastating news. There is a good chance that the endometriosis has left scarring, which could potentially lead to infertility.

Alyssa Scolari [32:38]:

Endometriosis often does lead to infertility. I'm also now dealing with that. I'm going to be 30 on January 6 and quite frankly, I definitely saw myself preparing to have children at this point. I don't know if that's even possible and if it is possible, it was recommended that I start trying to have children one month after my surgery, and that if I can't get pregnant within a few months, I'm going to have to go back on the pill, or there's a chance it could grow back. It's like, my head has just been spinning. This entire process has been so traumatic and we are sort of being forced to make all of these decisions that we weren't ready to make. I'm just, honestly, it's been very depressing. It's been really depressing.

Alyssa Scolari [33:42]:

I think my husband and I are both feeling very burnt out by the weight of this disease and what it means for our future. I feel very, very triggered because I'm now being told by a doctor that I have to be on a strict schedule with trying to get pregnant and honestly, that's very triggering for a sexual abuse survivor, because I never had control over my womb when I was younger, and I still don't have control over it now. I am so mad that I have to be in this much pain and suffer like this. I am so mad that my quality of life at 29 is absolute bullshit. I see my friends and other people going out and having fun and enjoying their lives and I can't do that because I am tired all the time. If I'm not tired, then I'm in pain and if I'm not in pain, then I'm nauseous because of the stomach issues. I'm just beyond exhausted.

Alyssa Scolari [34:56]:

It has been a long, traumatic journey and I am very blessed to have clients, my work, my job, who understand because I can't show up for them every week as promised. Consistency in therapy is very important to me but I'm not able to provide that to people. I'm really fortunate to have people who understand and are supportive but I just feel really shitty. Listen, I recognize other people have it worse. I understand that but this is just where I've been at.

Alyssa Scolari [35:43]:

Last week, when I was supposed to record a podcast episode where I was talking about all of this, but I was so defeated and depressed from the news at the doctor's appointment, which was like, "Yup, you got to have surgery and oh, if the endometriosis has spread to your bladder, then you're going to have to have another surgery after that with a urologist and if it has spread to your intestines, and we're going to have to refer you to a colorectal team for a third surgery potentially." It's just like, I see nothing but doctor's appointments in my future. I hate it.

Alyssa Scolari [36:24]:

Yeah, I understand that people have it worse but right now, I'm just kind of in my feels. I'm sharing this with you all not really for pity, because I don't want pity. I've actually really hesitated to tell much of anyone in my life because quite frankly, I don't feel like having to deal with any potential triggering responses. I know people mean well, but sometimes people say things that are just upsetting. I am too triggered right now to be able to receive any of that and understand that people's intentions are good. I'm not really sharing this because I want pity. I'm sharing this to spread awareness about this disease, because women are constantly told that their pain is not bad enough.

Alyssa Scolari [37:20]:

If you have female reproductive organs, whether you identify as transgender, whether you identify as a man, whatever you identify as, if you have reproductive organs and you have extremely painful periods, do not stop until you get to the bottom of why your periods are so painful because your period should be uncomfortable. It should be an inconvenience. It should not be debilitating. I share this with you to let you know why I've been a little bit MIA and I share this with you to let you know that if you struggle with any of this, please go and see doctor after doctor after doctor until somebody takes your pain seriously, because you owe that to yourself.

Alyssa Scolari [38:17]:

As for me, I am hanging in there. Luckily, the pill has helped with the pain but has made my mental health much worse, unfortunately. I am very thankful to have a husband who understands that I'm just not myself right now. He is helping me in the best way that he can. I know that I've mentioned that I have had, the pill does make me suicidal. That was my dog. Don't mind that. I know that I've mentioned that the pill does make me suicidal. I just want to come back and clarify, I have zero intentions to act on my urges. I will not act on my urges. I see those thoughts and I immediately tell them to somebody. I tell them to my therapist. I tell them to my husband and I keep myself safe because I know that this is going to end and that there is light at the end of this tunnel.

Alyssa Scolari [39:17]:

Things feel really, really dark right now. And I don't feel good emotionally or physically, pretty much ever but I know that things are going to get better. Whatever you may be going through, I need you to know that things are going to get better as well. If you are struggling and you are in a really dark place, hey, me too. We got this. We can still continue to show up for ourselves. Make sure you tell somebody because the more you talk about it, the less powerful those thoughts and urges become.

Alyssa Scolari [39:55]:

I'm physically going to be okay at some point. I emotionally will be okay. At some point, I have no intentions to act on my urges. I just want to make that very, very clear. I will be fine but I'm not fine right now. If you are not fine right now like me, I need you to go tell somebody. If you tell somebody and that person writes you off, I need you to go tell somebody else. If they write you off, then I need you to go on tell another person. This world can feel unkind and it can feel like nobody's listening, which is why I need you have to listen to yourself, first and foremost. If somebody is telling you, it's not that bad but you're saying, "Oh, yes, it is that bad," I need you to trust that because your health could depend on it.

Alyssa Scolari [40:52]:

Thank you for listening. My surgery is January 27th. I have never been more excited for a surgery. I am praying that I only need one. I will hear a lot more about what's going on in my uterus after the surgery. I will update you all. Yeah, I love you all. Thank you for listening. I am holding you in the light. We will be back next week with a guest episode.

Alyssa Scolari [41:28]:

Thanks for listening everyone. For more information, please head over to lightaftertrauma.com or you can also follow us on social media. On Instagram we are at Light After Trauma and on Twitter it is at Light After Pod. Lastly, please head over to patreon.com/lightaftertrauma to support our show. We are asking for $5 a month, which is the equivalent to a cup of coffee at Starbucks. Please head on over. Again, that's patreon.com/lightaftertrauma. Thank you and we appreciate your support.

Alyssa Scolari [42:08]:

[singing]

In this old episode, Alyssa brings her husband, David, on the show to discuss the challenges that can come with supporting a loved one with PTSD. David offers advice for supporters on how they can aid their loved ones on their path to recovery while also taking time to care for themselves.

Due to some health issues this week, we are doing a repeat of Episode 26. We'll be back next week with the new regular content you enjoy!

Check out the Light After Trauma website for transcripts, other episodes, Alyssa's guest appearances, and more at: www.lightaftertrauma.com

Want to get more great content and interact with the show? Check us out on Instagram: @lightaftertrauma

We need your help! We want to continue to make great content that can help countless trauma warriors on their journey to recovery. So, please help us in supporting the podcast by becoming a recurring patron of the show via Patreon. Every bit helps!

Transcript:

Alyssa Scolari:

Hi friends, hope everybody's off to a wonderful week. I am just popping on for a few minutes today to let you know that there will be no official new episode this week. This is the first time that we are pulling a repeat episode, so we are going to be sharing the episode that I did with my husband, David, on loving somebody with PTSD or more specifically complex PTSD. This is a really good episode. It's one that David and I did together, and I hope that you all enjoy it.

Alyssa Scolari:

The reason that there is no podcast episode this week is because quite frankly, it has been a pretty horrible week. I had planned to share with you all a little bit about what has been going on, and I have been, I know I've been touching on the fact that I've had some health issues lately in my previous episodes, and I was really hoping to be able to record a solo episode so that I could share what I'm going through with you all, especially off the heels of having my doctor's appointment.

Alyssa Scolari:

We had a doctor's appointment and we got some kind of just bad news and it's nothing life threatening, of course, so I'm not dying or anything like that, but all in all, it's just very upsetting news. It's news that we were kind of anticipating, but upon hearing it, it definitely didn't help, and I think the weight of everything really set in for both my husband, David and myself. David and I are the ones that run the podcast and David does all the editing, and I think that he's kind of having a rough time as well. Yeah, it's just been a really difficult week.

Alyssa Scolari:

I will be back next week and hopefully I will have had time to process everything and then I will update you all on what's going on, but right now I'm just not feeling the best. Again, while I was hoping to be able to chat with you all about what's been happening, this weekend definitely looked a lot more like me hanging out in my PJs with my dogs, just being in the grief of all of it. I love you all. I am holding you all in the light and I ask that you all hold me in the light as well right now because things are pretty tough, but I will be back now next week, and I appreciate your patience and I hope that you enjoy this episode.

[singing]

Alyssa Scolari:

Hey everybody, I feel like I need a new introduction. Because for every episode I'm like, "Hey everybody." And I sound so cheesy.

David Scolari:

No, we got to stay on brand. That is part of the brand and we're going with it, baby.

Alyssa Scolari:

No, it's too cheesy. Welcome everybody. No, that's really, that's terrible too. Anyway guys, hello guys, girls, they, them, everybody. Welcome to another episode of the Light After Trauma podcast, I'm your host Alyssa Scolari, and as you may or may not already be able to tell, we are doing an episode with the man behind the scenes today, my husband David. He is the editor of the podcast and the technology guru. Most importantly, I'm married to him. Hi Dave.

David Scolari:

Hello.

Alyssa Scolari:

The reason behind this is because as much as I think it's very important to give a voice to trauma survivors, I think it's also equally important to give a voice to the ones who are on the sidelines supporting us and loving us through our PTSD recovery journey. I thought that it might be helpful for folks if David came on the podcast today to share a little bit about what it's like to love somebody through PTSD. Yeah, here's Dave.

David Scolari:

Hey everybody. How are we all doing today?

Alyssa Scolari:

I can't, I'm going to have to edit that part out.

David Scolari:

Dave, edit that part out. You watch that rat bastard. He'll leave that right in there.

Alyssa Scolari:

I guess I'll just start firing questions at you.

David Scolari:

Go right ahead.

Alyssa Scolari:

It's so weird because I've actually never done a podcast that somebody sitting in the same room as me. March 23rd will be three years that we've been married.

David Scolari:

Yes ma'am.

Alyssa Scolari:

When I first met you, we met in 2016.

David Scolari:

Indeed.

Alyssa Scolari:

Did you have any idea that I had a history of trauma?

David Scolari:

Not a fricking clue.

Alyssa Scolari:

When did you find out? Do you want to talk about from your perspective how it all went down?

David Scolari:

Yeah. I guess probably the first time I knew that you had been through something was I think were driving to my aunt and uncle's down in Long Beach Island. On the drive there, you nervously told me that you were seeing a therapist for some things, and I'm sure you were like, oh my gosh, I'm going to tell this guy and he's going to be like, "Get out." In the middle of the Pine Barrens and drive away never to be seen again.

Alyssa Scolari:

I did. It was so funny. I dropped that on you like, to the listeners out there, when we were dating, I at first didn't tell him I was in therapy because at the time I guess I embraced the shame and stigma around being in therapy, which I no longer do. I now have no problem and will tell the whole world, obviously, that I'm in therapy, but I was a different person back then. What I did was I waited until we were in the car, so you couldn't abandon me. We were on a barren road where there was no cellphone service. I don't think consciously I was doing that on purpose, but I think subconsciously I was definitely like, "All right, I'm going to trap him, tell him I'm in therapy and there's nowhere for him to run."

David Scolari:

For folks who aren't familiar, in South Jersey, there are what we call the Pine Barren forests, and when you're driving through A, yes, there is no cell phone reception, B, there's like nobody out there, no houses, no towns, no convenience stores for long stretches of the road. So yeah, you're not turning around, you're not going anywhere, you can't just drop somebody off there. I mean, unless, I don't know, you were the mafia and you were doing something down there, but anyways, so yeah.

Alyssa Scolari:

Yeah. I made it so that you couldn't leave me, but even then I didn't tell you that I had a history of trauma because I didn't know.

David Scolari:

Right. Yeah. I mean, that's the first time I knew you had some things you were going through or working through-

Alyssa Scolari:

Eating disorder wise.

David Scolari:

Right.

Alyssa Scolari:

But when in your recollection were we talking about the fact that I then had PTSD? I don't think it wasn't until after we were married.

David Scolari:

Yeah. Because I don't think you really uncovered your trauma and kind of started to come to terms with some of it until after we were married.

Alyssa Scolari:

Conveniently.

David Scolari:

Which, by then, we were locked in baby and I wasn't going anywhere.

Alyssa Scolari:

Which obviously we kid. Part of the reason why I really thought, again, that it would be helpful to have David on here is because he sort of has been through this process with me and he can look at it from a different lens. He didn't know what he was walking into. Obviously, we got married and then it wasn't until shortly after we got married that I started to have all of these memories come to the surface. Can you tell me what that was like for you? Because there's so much I truthfully don't remember because I was in such a bad place.

David Scolari:

Yeah. I mean, obviously you were, it's tough, right? Because you have your good days and your bad days and some days we were just in the middle of doing something random, watching TV, going out somewhere, talking to somebody, hanging out, and you can start having those memories flood back into your consciousness there. I'll be very honest, I would say probably the word to use would just be unexpected, because with the recovery process and remembering things, you don't, there would just be days again where it, just out of the blue you would be angry, you would be sad, you would be enraged, you would be all sorts of emotions and I would kind of just be blindsided by it. Yeah, it was never consistent in terms of when you would uncover stuff and remember things and then have all those emotions associated with that. Sometimes, you wouldn't even know why you're crying or being mad or angry just because you were dissociating or other things. It would just come out of the blue.

Alyssa Scolari:

What was that like for you being on that kind of roller coaster?

David Scolari:

I mean, I think the word roller coaster is an apt kind of way to describe it. It can be challenging sometimes, because it can just come out of the blue and sometimes no matter the words that I say or the actions that I take, it's just sometimes a process where we got to cry it out. We got to yell it out, scream it out, and let your body kind of just process in the moment what you were remembering or going through or the things you were feeling.

Alyssa Scolari:

I'm sure that for those of you listening, if you have loved ones who have PTSD or complex PTSD and are going through this journey or did at one point, this is probably all sounding very familiar to you where it's like, especially if you're married to that person or that person is your romantic partner, it's sort of like one minute we're talking about something that's seemingly not emotional, he's asking me what I want for dinner and I'm curled up in a ball and the couch sobbing because I can't make up my mind. I'm frustrated because now I'm having flashbacks of other times when I couldn't make up my mind in the middle of a trauma. He's like, "What? I just asked you if you wanted pizza or spaghetti." And I'm balling and it's comical in retrospect. Right?

I mean, wouldn't you say like it's funny in retrospect? But, let me tell you something. When somebody asks you if you want, or if you're that person that's like, "Hey babe, do you want pizza for dinner or would you like chicken?" And that person just curls up into a ball and sobs, it's, I think, extremely stressful and extremely taxing. Right? Then, on top of it, we had the pandemic. We've been stuck. Not stuck, because I like you. I mean I love you. I'm such a jerk. We've been in this house for, which our house is not big. It's very small, very close corners, close corners, or close quarters?

David Scolari:

Quarters.

Alyssa Scolari:

Oh, okay. Well, there we go.

David Scolari:

Dave, edit that out.

Alyssa Scolari:

Yep. Edit that out, Dave. We've really not had any time apart, and I've still been going through quite a bit. Does that, like are there times where you're just at your wit's end?

David Scolari:

Oh, yeah. I mean, sure. Sometimes, again, just because what you're remembering, what you're feeling, or what happened that has brought forth, whether it's at your job or whatever, has kind of brought forth memories. Sometimes, I'm trying to calm you down, I'm trying to get you grounded again. Sometimes I can say things and it helps ground you. Sometimes what I say doesn't help ground yet.

Alyssa Scolari:

Sometimes it makes it worse.

David Scolari:

Sometimes the dogs do a much better job of grounding you than I do. In fact, they probably way, way better.

Alyssa Scolari:

I like my pets.

David Scolari:

Indeed.

Alyssa Scolari:

What are some things that you think people can do when they see their loved ones struggling when they see their loved ones dissociating, because this has been a learning process for you as well. This isn't something that I've been going through by myself. I've been going through it with you. Although, at times it feels like I'm by myself. What are some things that you have learned along the way that could help?

David Scolari:

Probably, one, patience. I think even in when I go, "Do you want Wendy's or McDonald's?" And you then start bawling out on the couch. I'm like, "Oh, this this ... Oh, okay. We can go someplace else." But no, when that happens, I think the first thing that even sometimes when I'm like, "Ooh, this is like the third time today where we're having a meltdown." There's part of me, that's like, "Ooh, not again, here we go." Part of what helps get me through it is to realize that it's not you. It's the people or events that have caused the trauma that is now welling up inside of you. To recognize that it's not you being a bad person or anything like that, but it's those events and those people. It really helps put it into context and allows me to go, "Okay, hey, maybe this is the third time we're bawling our eyes out on the couch today, but that's okay. We have a rollercoaster ride ahead of us and we'll be there and get through the ups and the downs." I think that's one, just kind of having that context.

Alyssa Scolari:

Just reminding yourself and reframing like, "This is not that person. This is that person's trauma. That person is not fully present right now."

David Scolari:

Yep. Not letting the trauma define the person, you in this particular case. I think that's hugely important for anybody, that reframing that, putting it into context really allows you to see the person that you've fallen in love with.

Alyssa Scolari:

Well, how is it that you know and are able to tell when I'm dissociated, or when I'm not present? And how are you able to tell it's the trauma? Because I think some people out there, and I think, you don't have a background in trauma, right? You have no degree in trauma. This has been such a learning experience. I think that there are a lot of people out there that have zero experience with trauma, have a loved one who's been through trauma and like, how are they supposed to tell if it's dissociation and how are they supposed to calm their own defenses? How can they educate themselves? How can they calm their own defenses? Because I'm sure there are times when I am dissociated and there have been times where we have fought and you have lost your patience. What would you recommend for somebody who just has no understanding of even what dissociation is?

David Scolari:

Yeah. I think it's really having a conversation with the person who is going through that trauma, whether it's a friend or spouse or whatever. I think for you and me in particular, having conversations either outside of your episodes of crying or anger or whatever.

Alyssa Scolari:

After I've calmed down and grounded myself a little bit.

David Scolari:

Yeah. I mean, honestly I think it's ... I think I've learned the most, and again, maybe this isn't for everybody, but I've always learned the most about what you've been through and what you're thinking, or have felt at the time like right after we've kind of grounded you a bit and gotten you to a point where you've calmed down a bit, then we're able to like, we have some really good conversations that can go from anywhere from five minutes to maybe an hour or more. We kind of just break down like what you were feeling, what memories came back, and that has really helped me put things into context in terms of, "Oh, okay, this is what triggered this thought.' Or, "This is what welled up inside of you." That's really just added more and more context over the years that I've known you and we've been going through this process and yeah, just really helps put it all into context.

Alyssa Scolari:

I think one of the biggest takeaways from that is this, the concept that it's not going to be helpful to talk it out in the moment always. It's really important to try to help that person when they're really triggered or really dissociated to get to a state of calm first, because when I'm dissociated, there's really no talking it out with me because you won't win. Whatever you say, I hate it. In that moment you're not David, right, in my eyes. You're one of my abusers. In that moment, I can't stand you. Whatever you say is going to be wrong. It's going to make me worse. I'm not going to like it. I'm going to say something that's going to trigger you. Then, that's how blow ups happen. One of the things that you've really learned, which I think is going to be helpful for people to hear, is that it's not really about talking it out in the moment. It's about what can we do to ... How can I help this person to ground themselves and calm down, and then we will revisit this later.

David Scolari:

Absolutely. What, and I think you you've said this often, especially sometimes in the moment. Me, I'm a very logical sort of person.

Alyssa Scolari:

Ugh, are you ever.

David Scolari:

I always try and talk things out and you're like, "Listen, I totally, logically, get what you're saying. I hear you David, but I don't, like I can't feel that." With the disassociation, you may hear the words, you may agree with the words in some part of your brain, but another part of your brain is just blowing up and being like, "I don't care what you're saying. I'm just in this space right now where I'm hearing it, but I'm not processing it."

Alyssa Scolari:

Yeah. I think that's exactly it. Going back to even something that might not seem trauma related, like when we first got married and we, as David said, he is all about logic and I am all about like flying by the seam of your pants. Like, okay, let's not look at our bank account. Let's just get on a plane and go on vacation. David's like, "Okay, but the budget." Right? Speaking of budgets, when we first got married, he was like, "Okay, well let's create a budget." Because we really did not have, I mean, we were very poor when we, I think it's fair to say.

David Scolari:

Oh yeah.

Alyssa Scolari:

Yeah, we were extremely, extremely poor when we first started out.

David Scolari:

Nonprofits, surprisingly, don't pay a lot of money.

Alyssa Scolari:

Who would've thought? We both met working in a nonprofit and in that nonprofit I was an employee and David was a volunteer. We really were making like the salary of one person working at a nonprofit.

David Scolari:

Right. Probably more like a salary of somebody working at McDonald's or Wal-Mart.

Alyssa Scolari:

Yes, we were essentially making minimum wage. David was like, "Budget. We got to look at a budget." I, for, and now I kind of understand, I understand a lot more why now, but this is like three years removed. Back then, when we talked about a budget, I lost my ever loving shit. I mean, like shut down, cried hysterically, or got mad at him because he wanted to do a budget and I would refuse. That was a point of contention, like one of the biggest points of contention in our marriage, I think, when we first started out. It was a huge trigger for me. Now I understand why, but back then I had no idea.

Again, it's not always helpful to try to figure it out in the moment, because logically I knew we had no money. I knew we had a ton of debt. And I knew that budgeting was the only way that we were going to be able to sustain ourselves. Emotionally, I mean, my emotions took over and I was incoragable. You couldn't talk to me about budgeting at all. I thought, I mean, I thought you were going to kill me. I'm sure you want to do at times. Because he would just say the B word, he would say budget, and he could just, right?

David Scolari:

Oh yeah.

Alyssa Scolari:

Like, you could just see the change in me.

David Scolari:

Yeah.

Alyssa Scolari:

You might not have the answers. You might not be able to talk it out in the moment, but I also think it helps you've learned a lot coming to therapy with me. It helps that I'm a trauma therapist so I've been able to teach you a lot about trauma. For the listeners out there, I don't think everybody kind of has that luxury of happen to be dating or married to somebody who specializes in trauma. One of the things that I think helped you and could help other people out there is go to therapy with your partner.

David Scolari:

Or find maybe like a support group or something.

Alyssa Scolari:

Yes. Because, it's very hard. If you are the one supporting the person through their recovery journey, it is very, very difficult and very taxing on the relationship. David has come to therapy with me. I think you learned a lot. You've read books on trauma. I think you've even learned a lot through editing this podcast.

David Scolari:

Yeah. Also, the nonprofit we worked for did a lot of trauma informed sorts of trainings, even though I myself am not a therapist. All employees did a lot of that sort of training because they wanted to be a trauma informed organization.

Alyssa Scolari:

Yep. Pick up a book, go to therapy, find a support group, because it's so important to recognize that this is very taxing for our loved ones who are trying to support us through this. What are some ways that you have found that help me and could potentially help other people with trauma, like ground themselves in the moment?

David Scolari:

Sure. I mean, listen, sometimes I am able to just talk it through a little bit and get you grounded that way. I would say the other way would, I mean honestly, be the dogs. I mean, they do the most ridiculous things during some of your most intense episodes there and it just causes us to laugh. I think that that moment of our dogs laying in the most awkward position possible coming up and licking your face or doing other things just gives that two second break in what you're going through, that dissociation, and kind of makes you laugh for a little bit.

You might still be in that dissociation a little bit, but then I see really that you start to come down off of that dissociation because just the dogs and the situations and the things that they do or just they coming up and you petting them just really helps calm you down and kind of grounds you. Sometimes pets, other kind of external stimulus that can be, I don't know, relaxing, or just to kind of break that tension there in a dissociation, I think, can be really helpful or has been helpful for you.

Alyssa Scolari:

Yeah. I mean, I think redirecting me, sometimes you will get me out of the room that I'm in. Sometimes you'll encourage me to take a bath. Sometimes he will encourage me to work out even when I don't want to, and I might curse the entire time, but then after I do it, I feel better. I think that you help in a big way by taking care of a lot of like the, kind of like the mundane tasks around the house and making sure that I'm like fed and hydrated and taking my meds. You do a lot. I mean, there's a lot that you do that helps me be able to manage all of this. But with that being said, sometimes I think that supporters of those who have trauma, if they take on too much, then their plate gets overwhelmed and there is only so much you can take. Right?

One of the reasons why the dogs helped me so much, just because dogs have never hurt me, right? Men have hurt me. Men have abused me. That's why sometimes, as great as you are, you're still a symbol for everything that has hurt me. Sometimes I want nothing to do with you. Sometimes I just need to be with my dogs. Sometimes, I will just verbally kind of assault you. What would you recommend for somebody who's in that position? For somebody who's sort of trying to support their loved one through their PTSD journey, but is also like, okay, I'm kind of at the end of my rope here as well, because I think we get to those spots too as a couple where it can be you're at the end of your rope, I'm at the end of my rope. Okay. Well now what? What do you recommend?

David Scolari:

I think the key here is really taking care of yourself. Yes. We're going to say that word self care, or maybe it's two words. Is it? Is it two words or is it one word, hyphenated?

Alyssa Scolari:

It's two words.

David Scolari:

Two words. All right, well.

Alyssa Scolari:

Self-care for you.

David Scolari:

Self-care for me, yes.

Alyssa Scolari:

Yes.

David Scolari:

I don't know, reading a book, playing video games, watching my own show that I like or something like that can just give me that mental little break to help me recover a little bit so that the next time you're having an disassociation or whatever, I'm mentally refreshed. I think that's key is, yes, taking care of the person who has that trauma, of course. Cleaning or cooking or making sure the person is taking their meds and encouraging them, sitting through with them as they go through a dissociation or an episode or whatever, those are all things that are important to do. You also, there is something to be said when we hear about self care is you got to take care of yourself before you can take care of somebody else. If you're not eating, if you're not taking a mental break, if you're not doing X, Y, or Z for yourself, that helps you physically and mentally, you're not going to be able to take care of the other person. I think that really is key, to do stuff for yourself. Whatever that may be.

Alyssa Scolari:

Yeah. I think that that's important because the supporters of those who are in recovery can't pour from an empty cup. I just want to be clear that what we're saying here is not drop everything that's important to you as the supporter and take care of the person going through recovery. It's trying to find a balance of supporting your partner while also taking care of yourself. Wouldn't you agree?

David Scolari:

Yes, ma'am.

Alyssa Scolari:

But then I also think that even with all of that being said, right, there are going to be times where it's still going to feel like too much. At that point there also, I think, should be a discussion. Wouldn't you agree?

David Scolari:

Yeah, sure.

Alyssa Scolari:

What does that discussion look like? It's not like, "I don't love you and can't help you anymore." Right? But also, like, you can't be expected as the supporter to lay down and kind of take, especially if you're the target, right? Just because we're supporting somebody through PTSD recovery doesn't mean that we kind of lay down and a doormat and allow ourselves to be targets for their anger or rage or whatever it may be. Sometimes we do that as trauma survivors. I do it. I've done it to Dave quite a few times. What do you recommend for people who find themselves in that position, but are afraid to speak up for fear that like, well, this person's already going through so much. I don't want to tell them that what they did hurt my feelings.

David Scolari:

Yeah. I mean, I think once that person has calmed down and grounded themselves, I think it's perfectly acceptable to then kind of go up and say like, "Hey, listen, I know you were going through that dissociation and whatnot. You were saying X, Y, and Z things because of the trauma you had in the past, but that really hurt." Or, "I didn't like the way you did this or said that." Because I think that's important because everybody's a human being, right? We all make mistakes and we all have feelings and emotions, whether we've been through trauma or not. You, as the support person, are more, are entitled to your feelings and entitled to respect and whatnot.

We can understand that the person or the loved one, whoever they are, has been through trauma and is saying these things, again, as we mentioned earlier in the episode. Context is important and we can understand that they're saying this yelling, screaming, crying, saying things to you that may hurt your feelings because, not because again they're a bad person, but because they have had bad things done to them. That being said, you also are a human being who has emotions. You also are entitled to respect and to love and all that stuff. Yeah. Sometimes just saying it and hearing, being able to say like, "Oh yeah, I'm sorry. I didn't mean it. I just was in the dissociation." Like, listen, I know that, I don't get, my feelings may be hurt, but at the end of the day I know it's not you being bad or trying to be mean to me intentionally. Yeah. But even just hearing that sorry, and like, yeah, that was a bridge too far just reaffirms that that love and respect that you have for me And I have for you when helps me move on.

Alyssa Scolari:

I guess my last question for you is of, it's been such a difficult process and such a hard thing for you to see me through and for me to go through, obviously. What would you say, because I noticed, and I think about this often that if you hadn't seen me through this, you'd be a very different person today. What about you and who you are has changed for the better because of what I've gone through and what you've supported me through?

David Scolari:

I think I've, one, become more open about talking about my feelings, which is something that I didn't do before I met you. I generally, I'm a private person. I don't like to talk about those things, but having met you-

Alyssa Scolari:

I'm doing a happy dance right now because it's so true. You didn't like to talk about anything.

David Scolari:

No, that's true.

Alyssa Scolari:

Now, here you are pulling stuff out of me. Sorry, I said I wasn't going to steam roll and I'm steam rolling. Go on.

David Scolari:

No, go right on ahead. It's your podcast. You can do what you want. Yeah. I think, one, talking about my feelings more, whether it's related to something that happened during a dissociation episode, or just something that happened at work or in life in general, just talking more about that, which I think has been extremely helpful for me to kind of be able to talk about and process those things. That's certainly something that's helped me keep me grounded and sane and whatnot. I think at the end of the day, as I learned more and more about you and I love you more each and every single day. Yeah. I think, I know when we started dating and whatnot you were always afraid of, "Well, if I tell him this happened to me or that I'm in therapy or this, he'll love me less." But I don't, I love you more each and every single day.

Alyssa Scolari:

It's given you a lot more patience.

David Scolari:

Indeed.

Alyssa Scolari:

I think it's helped to you to get to know me on a deeper level.

David Scolari:

Mm-hmm[affirmative].

Alyssa Scolari:

It's helped me like in the same regards, it's helped me to get to know you on a deeper level as well. Well, thank you. I appreciate you coming on here, because I know that you're more of a behind the scenes kind of guy. But, it's definitely important. To all the trauma survivors out there, tell your supports how much they mean to you and to the ones who are listening who are supporters, you mean the world to us. We couldn't get through this process without supports in our lives. Thank you. As difficult as it may be sometimes, and I just want to point out that this is David's perspective. This is one person's perspective. Somebody else might feel differently about it. That's okay too.

If anybody has any questions about what we talked about and questions for David, please feel free to reach out. You can reach out on my Instagram or my Facebook, or you can email me or go on my website, which is just the Alyssascolari.com. Feel free to ask questions, because this, I think, is a really important topic and not one that we have talked enough about. With that being said, very thankful for my husband, for Dave, for everything that he does for me. The podcast would not be possible without him. Yeah, I think that's all we got. I think that's a wrap.

David Scolari:

That's a wrap.

Alyssa Scolari:

The last thing that I wanted to just let you all know is that I have started a Patreon. You will see it in the show notes. We have really, really enjoyed, well, I have really enjoyed creating this podcast and creating this awesome content for all of you. I am honestly shocked that in less than six months this podcast has just taken off. It's taken off in ways that I never thought that it would. As it's gotten bigger and bigger, it's requiring much more time, much more effort, and quite a bit of money. I did start a Patreon. If you like what you hear and you are interested in contributing at all to that, I would greatly appreciate it. Any little bit counts and all the money goes towards really just helping to keep this content awesome. As great as it is, keep it high quality and to just keep things rolling out smoothly on a weekly basis. Just wanted to let you all know about that.

Again, any contribution would be greatly appreciated. Thanks for listening everyone. For more information about today's episode, and to sign up for the Light After Trauma newsletter, head over to my website at Alyssascolari.com. The really great thing about being a part of this newsletter is that not only do you get weekly updates on new podcast episodes and blog posts, but you also get access to the private Facebook community as well as access to all sorts of insider tips, resources, and info graphs that supplement what we talk about on the show. You also can connect with me and other trauma warriors. I'm super active on the Facebook community. I look forward to talking with you.

[singing].

Michele Benyo became a Certified Grief Recovery Specialist after her six-year-old son died from cancer. After witnessing her young daughter's intense grief over the loss of her brother, she knew she had to help other parents whose children are grieving the loss of their sibling. Michelle provides incredible insight on the ways in which children grieve and she shares tips for parents who are trying to support their bereaved kid(s).

Michele Benyo's website: https://goodgriefparenting.com

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Transcript

Alyssa Scolari [00:00]:

Hey, hey, hey, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of the Light After Trauma podcast. I am your host, Alyssa Scolari, and I hope you all had a lovely holiday. I know we are really in the thick of the holiday season. And I also know it has been a while since we have had a guest on the show, and we are changing that up today. I appreciate Michele's grace. She is going to be our guest today, Michele Benyo. And I appreciate her grace because I have had to reschedule our interview quite a few times due to some health issues that I have been having lately. I'm just very grateful that she is here on the show today. We have a great episode lined up for you.

Alyssa Scolari [01:08]:

So I'm going to tell you a little bit about who Michele is. Michele Benyo is a mom of two. She's a certified grief recovery specialist, an early childhood parent coach, and the founder of Good Grief Parenting. After her six-year-old son died of cancer, her three-year old daughter said, "Mommy, half of me is gone." This heartbreaking statement defined Michele's life purpose.

Alyssa Scolari [01:38]:

Her mission is twofold. To help parents through the unimaginable challenges of parenting while grieving the death of a child. And to help parents meet the unique needs of a child who has lost a sibling in the early childhood years. The desire of Michele's heart is to see families live forward after loss toward a future bright with possibilities and even joy.

Alyssa Scolari [02:07]:

So this is going to be, I take a deep breath and I encourage you all to take a deep breath with me because this is going to be a difficult, but hopefully very inspiring and supportive conversation. And I am just very grateful to have Michele here us today. So without further ado, let us introduce our first guest that we have had in quite a while on the show. Hi, Michele.

Michele Benyo [02:36]:

Hi Alyssa. I'm so happy to be here.

Alyssa Scolari [02:40]:

I'm so happy to have you. Again, thank you for your grace. It really means a lot to me. I know lots of the listeners are aware that I've had some health issues going on. I know as I mentioned just a few moments ago, I've had to reschedule Michele quite a few times, so thank you. I'm so happy to have you here.

Alyssa Scolari [03:02]:

We're talking about a tough topic today. To be perfectly transparent, I am a trauma therapist, so death of course is part of what I work with. But every therapist has certain things that they might not necessarily work with because it might be too triggering for them. And for me, I cannot see people who have lost children, because I have a hard time managing my own emotions around that.

Alyssa Scolari [03:41]:

This conversation is a very new one for me as well, and I'm really looking forward to hearing your story and learning, because in the learning, I'm hoping that it's going to help me to be able to help more people. Thank you for being here. I guess the first question that I'll ask you is, can you just let us know a little bit about your story?

Michele Benyo [04:06]:

Yes. Of course. Just to say that your reaction to child loss is so natural of course. I mean it's called the worst loss for a reason. And when I experienced child loss, I didn't know what to do with it. My story was that I was an early childhood parent educator. I had the best job in the world. I got to go to work every day and be with families of young children.

Michele Benyo [04:33]:

And I was myself, a mom of two young children. My son was four and a half. My daughter was 15 months. And then he got cancer. He was diagnosed with cancer at that age. And I didn't know what to do with that. That's not normal natural child development. And we had to go through a two and a half year journey. And my families in my classes went through it with us.

Michele Benyo [05:02]:

My son was an amazing teacher as well. He was a very tenderhearted boy and I just thought, oh, this child can't go through this. But he really went through it very well, like a trooper. I mean, he fought it, and that was alarming to me sometimes because he was really aggressive at times. But the doctors and nurses said, no, we want them to have some fight. Those are the kids who make it.

Michele Benyo [05:29]:

But my daughter was 15 months when her brother was diagnosed. They were very close. And when he died, she was three and a half. And she said to me, "Mommy, half of me is gone." The journey was hard enough, but then realizing what this had done to her, my loss was devastating, but hers was more heartbreaking than mine because here I have a three and a half year old daughter who is facing the rest of her life with half of her gone.

Michele Benyo [06:08]:

And I knew that was a true statement because of what I know about early childhood development and just the formation of identity and just the impact that this kind of emotional trauma can have on a child's development in those formative years. So I was desperate not to let her grow up broken, with half of her gone. And I thought, well, I'm in the right field. I know where the resources are, but I wasn't able to find any.

Michele Benyo [06:40]:

And I should say this was 20 years ago. My son died in the year 2000, and my daughter's now 25. I raised her up, learned a lot of things. There were no resources then. And I did need to figure it out on my own. There are a few more resources now, but I still find that siblings and anyone, any one of your listeners who is a bereaved sibling, whatever age, knows how overlooked that demographic is when it comes to grief, and especially really young children.

Michele Benyo [07:20]:

Not many of them articulate what my daughter did. We don't want to upset kids. Like you say, when a child dies and when a child's exposed to loss, we want to stay away from it. We don't want to deal with it. So I had to figure it out. And now what I learned over my 20 years of just getting my hands on everything I could is what I want to bring to families through Good Grief Parenting, which is the work that I do with parents who are raising young children after losing a child.

Alyssa Scolari [07:57]:

Yes. Before we began recording, I was going through and preparing and reading about what you do. And I thought to myself, this is such an important niche of people who are almost unnoticed in their grief process. It is unheard of. And I think back, the training I've had, and we have never ever shown any kind of spotlight on children who have lost siblings. I mean specifically children, early childhood, and what that looks like.

Alyssa Scolari [08:34]:

There is rarely ever a safe space for parents who lose a child, but still have one or multiple children to raise. What do we do? So, A, thank you so much for sharing your story. I'm so thankful. Can you talk a little bit about how did you get to beginning this? Like where was that moment that you shifted from, okay, I need to not just ... Okay, I'm helping myself with this, but you know what? I need to do more. Where did that shift happen for you?

Michele Benyo [09:21]:

Honestly, Alyssa, that shift happened right away, because I was an early childhood parent educator. It was what I do. Even though I had other careers, I was a high school teacher, I was a communications coordinator. Other careers before I did this, I started doing early childhood parent ed when I had my son.

Michele Benyo [09:45]:

And it was really where my heart was making good things happen for children and the adults who loved them and raised them. And that was in my heart kind of because of my own upbringing, feeling a little bit misunderstood as a child. My parents weren't bad parents by any means, but I learned I wanted to parent differently.

Michele Benyo [10:06]:

So I always had my eye on that piece. And here came something in my own life that was so huge that I didn't know anything about, even with my training. So I knew then that as I was going, I would need to, especially when I found nothing else out there that I would need to do this. But as I said, that was 20 years ago.

Michele Benyo [10:30]:

And I founded Good Grief Parenting only within the last five years, because my own grief and my own journey and my own focus on my daughter was so primary for me, I just wasn't able to really ... I knew I wasn't able to step into other people's stories yet. And now I am. Now she's raised. And so it really was very early on that I recognized that whatever I was able to glean, I was going to need to share. So this has been in my mind and has been sharpened and adjusted and learned over the last 20 years.

Alyssa Scolari [11:14]:

Wow! Now, can you talk a little bit about what's very important for adults and for parents to know about the way that younger children grieve in cases and tragedies like this?

Michele Benyo [11:35]:

I think I would address that by saying that where I start in working with families is looking at what we believe about grief and how we handle grief as a society. And the way we handle it as a society with adults is that it's something to avoid, something that we don't want to talk about. We don't want to bother the griever. And with children, that is so easy to do because they don't usually look like they're grieving. So what we know about children.

Michele Benyo [12:06]:

A story that I have about my daughter that gives me, again, just conviction in this statement that even really young children grieve, which not that many years ago, we didn't really believe they did. My daughter, as I mentioned was 15 months old when her brother went to the hospital. For the very first time he had to stay overnight. His dad went with him. We had been through a couple weeks of figuring out what wrong with him and getting this devastating diagnosis.

Michele Benyo [12:37]:

And that night I was home with her. And she was, as I said, 15 months old. Was wailing. She started wailing and making just an inhuman sound. It was alarming to me. I was scared of how she sounded. She was wandering around the house upstairs and down to the garage door and up to David's bed and just wandering. And as I would try to go to her and comfort her, she'd push me away and throw herself on the floor.

Michele Benyo [13:11]:

She was distraught with every cell in her little body. And I wasn't a mess. I was pretty composed, but she had been in our home when this disruption was happening. And she had absorbed it and she knew her brother and her dad were gone. And this was, she was grieving. She was grieving the loss of her security. And so that coupled with what she was able to say to me two and a half years later, made me just really, really understand how deeply young children grieve.

Michele Benyo [13:48]:

And so, they don't show it. Even after she said, mommy, half of me is gone, if you looked at her, she didn't. You wouldn't see in her like you might see in me that she was grieving. And we tend not to talk to them because we don't want to upset them. But I knew enough by the time we went through this, that she had been very involved with the whole journey, because we weren't going to leave her with neighbors and friends while the three of us were together. Not after that first night where she reacted the way she did.

Michele Benyo [14:25]:

She was with us in the children's hospital, and so she was very exposed to it. And I just knew that we would talk about this. That we were open about it. And I had to educate other adults around her that Deanna will talk about her brother. We talk about her brother. You'll talk about her brother. So the other thing is recognizing that kids need and want to talk about what they've been through. Whatever kind of trauma it is, they really need to be able to give it voice.

Alyssa Scolari [15:00]:

Yeah. And I think that that's very important to say that children grieve so much differently, and it's just not in the way that adults would grieve because typically for any type of loss, even adults who experience loss, there are simply no words. There are no words that could ever exist that convey what grief feels like. So as adults, we struggle to find the language.

Alyssa Scolari [15:28]:

So you look at a young child who doesn't even have their full range of vocabulary. Their brains are barely developed, and their grief is simply not going to come out in words, it's going to come out in other ways. Like you said, your daughter was throwing herself on the floor because grief and trauma is stored, first and foremost, in your body, before you even have words.

Michele Benyo [15:53]:

Yes. It will be in their play. That's why play therapy is so effective with children. That's what we did with Deanna in the beginning. She was three and a half, and we found a play therapist for her, so that that person could just listen to her and watch her play and talk to her about what she was playing because she was playing about bun bun. Her nickname was bunny.

Michele Benyo [16:19]:

They play about the person who died, and they might play about a funeral or some kind of thing like that, and we can learn so much by just paying attention to what they're doing. Like you say often, their play might be very aggressive and physical. And their behavior may be what we mistake as misbehavior, because they don't know how to get it out any other way.

Alyssa Scolari [16:48]:

Exactly. Exactly. Absolutely. Now, talking about play therapy, with Good Grief Parenting, can you explain like the general approach in your Good Grief Parenting? As I understand it, and please correct me if I'm wrong, you work with both the children who have lost a sibling as well as parents? Or do you work with the parents to help them to help their children?

Michele Benyo [17:12]:

I work with the parents. I don't work with the children because parents are going to be with these kids for the rest of their lives. And these kids are going to have needs for the rest of their lives. I came across a quote early on in my building of Good Grief Parenting. And it is so perfect to kind of explain what I do. And it's a quote by an author named Anne Roiphe, who wrote a book after her husband died. And in it, she said, there are two parts to grief. The first part is loss. And the second part is the remaking of life.

Michele Benyo [17:49]:

So when we have the support groups and the things that are there right after we've had the loss. Deanna went to support groups at the hospital, so did I. But then after our eight weeks, the rest of her life is ahead of her. I as a parent understood, and probably more than a lot of parents, because I was in the field of early childhood development, that this was going to affect so much about her life for the rest of her life. And how did I parent her with that grief-informed approach to parenting, and there was no one out there doing that?

Michele Benyo [18:25]:

So I really am the longer term look at raising these children, not just getting through the loss, because play therapy helps with that. The support groups and the art activities and the things that help kids process it, help with that. But then what about the rest of their lives when they're encountering all kinds of secondary losses? They go to school and do their little stories on their family and they are ... Deanna's sibling, I coin the term sibling by heart, because she's a sibling, but her brother isn't alive to look at her. She looks like an only. She's not an only. There's a big difference between a child who's born an only, and a child who is an only because their sibling died.

Michele Benyo [19:21]:

Yeah. So a lot of needs, a lot of behaviors that children are going to express. When a child experiences the loss of a sibling at a young age, they're going to reprocess that over and over again as they get older and have a better understanding of what that means to them and how that affected their life and changed their life, and the void that's there.

Michele Benyo [19:46]:

So I work with parents for the long haul. I am a certified grief specialist, and we start there, because before the parent can help the child, they need to make sure their needs are being met. And their grief is being held gently because you can't help your child with grief if you can't help yourself with grief. I start with that piece, and get parents stabilized in recognizing how some of the things we think about grief, that we avoid it. We don't talk about it. We don't talk to kids. How to do those things differently and in more healthy ways. And then we move into just, really, what does parenting look like?

Alyssa Scolari [20:31]:

Yeah. Yeah. So I really appreciate that you help. What I hear you saying is you help people in the, when they are more or less emerging from the immediate crisis and the acute trauma. I think that's very important because that's when so many people and so many supports pull out. Are you familiar with David Kessler?

Michele Benyo [20:57]:

Yes. Mm-hmm [affirmative]. Mm-hmm [affirmative].

Alyssa Scolari [21:01]:

The book, was it The Sixth Stage of Grief book, Finding Meaning? I believe he put out a book a few years ago. I believe it's The Sixth Stage of Grief. I've talked about it on the podcast, so the listeners, I'm sure you've heard me talk about this before, is a phenomenal book. But one of the things that he talks about, and then I think so many people who come into my office who have had any kind of loss struggle with is in the beginning, when a loss first happens, everybody gathers round, and everybody is there and people are bringing food and people are checking in.

Alyssa Scolari [21:34]:

And then typically after the memorial service or the funeral or whatever kind of service there may be, it dies off. That is when things get so difficult, because of all of the, like you said, secondary losses. So that is where you come in to help support parents when they're sort of like, okay, now what? Now how do I keep breathing?

Michele Benyo [22:07]:

Yes. Yeah. That is just so difficult. And that is really, I think, where the difference about child loss is so apparent. I mean, that happens with any griever, supports go away later. But when it's a child, it's like it's this triple taboo topic to talk about the fact that a child died. And so people just don't want to entertain it. They don't want to upset the family, the parents, and they don't want to think about it because they've got their own little kids, and they don't want to think about the possibility that they could experience that.

Michele Benyo [22:46]:

I even remember that for myself. I had some friends who had serious things with their kids before my son was diagnosed. And I remember finding myself feeling bad for those families and thinking sort of statistically or whatever, that that was probably the closest I was going to get to it. Somehow thought that knowing these other families that were experiencing this meant that I wouldn't, in some crazy way. And then there I was. Yeah. Our relationships change so drastically with the people around us.

Alyssa Scolari [23:30]:

Yeah. They really do. They really do. Now, can you speak a little bit about the stages of grief. I know we were talking a little bit about this before we hit that record button. But for so many people out there, and I know that a quite a few listeners of the podcasts are therapists. And a lot of us, when it comes to grief, we are taught what feels like a very simple formula. Grief, here are the five stages. Now, David Kessler has now, there is a six stage, which is finding meaning. Tell me about your thoughts and your opinions on these stages of grief and how they are used, and if they are accurate to what people truly feel?

Michele Benyo [24:24]:

I don't think they are accurate. And I don't think they're helpful because so many people lean on it. I remember when I lost my son, I knew nothing about grief. And I had friends, people who were not professional in any way, quoting these stages to me, that I was now going to go through. And I didn't go through them. I didn't in any way, shape or form. And I kept thinking, why aren't I angry? Why aren't I this? Why aren't I that? And I felt like I was doing grief wrong. And I kept looking for these things to happen to me.

Michele Benyo [25:12]:

And I think the reason that there's so many articles out there and people out there who really misuse those stages, and I think that's the danger about them because Elisabeth Kübler-Ross didn't design these as the stages of grief. She stated these stages as what a person goes through when they themselves have had a terminal diagnosis, which is very different. Because I think if I had been diagnosed myself, those stages would've been a bit more apparent in me.

Michele Benyo [25:48]:

But I think so many people are not really trained in grief, and they grab a hold of what they've heard, and they want to offer something to the griever, so they offer this. And I have been just so appreciative to see that there are many other ways of viewing grief that are now available. I like to think about how William Worden talks about the different tasks that we have. And I love that we now talk about how significant continuing bonds are as opposed to what Freud used to tell us, which is get over the relationship and move on.

Michele Benyo [26:30]:

And so I think, as you know, because you work with people who go through trauma and you don't see ... People don't go through it the same. They all go through it in their own way. And you need to really, as you know, look at what they're experiencing, and honor that. And help people through it without them feeling like there's a particular way that they're supposed to do it.

Michele Benyo [26:55]:

So I stay away from the stages myself because I look at some of the other things that are going to be happening in the families that they're going to need to be dealing with. And the fact that since I look at sibling loss and early childhood sibling loss, that griever that I'm focused on, the sibling is going to change in so many ways as they mature and develop cognitively and experientially. Their grief is going to change drastically.

Alyssa Scolari [27:28]:

Yes. I'm sure it's continuously changing. Always. Now, I just want to make sure I heard you correctly because this is a fascinating little fact that I don't think many people know. Did you say that the five stages of grief were originally created in response to a person being diagnosed with a terminal illness?

Michele Benyo [27:47]:

Yes. Yeah. They were not the stages of grief. They were the stages that a person goes through, who's been diagnosed with a terminal illness. So, yeah. Kind of a different take.

Alyssa Scolari [27:59]:

Okay. So if I learned that in grad school, I apologize to my professors because that is so interesting how we have taken that and sort of just generalized it to all grief. All grief. That is really, really fascinating. So with your approach, what would you say, because I know sometimes you talk about the four keys to helping young children heal from grief. Can you share those with us?

Michele Benyo [28:29]:

Yes. I have a Good Grief Parenting framework that is sort of four pillars. I call them heartbeats. But then I also just offer these four simple things that I think any adult who works with children because ... So Michele's telling us now that we're supposed to deal with this with our kids, and we're supposed to talk to them. That feels scary, I think, to a lot of adults.

Michele Benyo [28:56]:

And so, first of all, the first key is, as I said, take care of yourself and make sure that you're meeting your own needs. And that doesn't mean just bubble baths and walks in the woods. It means figuring out what it is that you really need in the midst of this crisis that you're having, and this devastating loss that you've experienced.

Michele Benyo [29:21]:

And then making sure that you are speaking up for yourself and getting your needs met and taking time to do that and getting the support you need, even though you have young children. Parenting and grieving are the two toughest roles that adults and families have. And when you've got to do them at the same time, how do you do that? So self-care has to come first. As important as your little person is, and they are, they're relying on you totally, you need to take care of yourself first.

Michele Benyo [29:58]:

And then the other key is recognizing that rather than shying away from the loss and kind of avoiding it and kind of not wanting to bring it up to upset anybody, that continuing bonds piece of building the relationship and continuing it forward in new ways is so important for yourself and for your child because that sibling bond doesn't end. I have met adults who lost a sibling as a young child whose parents never talked about that child again. And they grew up with this void and with this feeling that something was off that they could never quite deal with.

Michele Benyo [30:43]:

And some of the research that I discovered later as I continue to look at this really showed that people who kept that relationship, bereaved siblings, bereaved as children who kept that relationship felt good about it. Felt good that they had it, even though their sibling wasn't there. So that continuing bonds, finding ways to honor that child in your family or that loved one in your family is a healing thing. So when people tell you, you shouldn't keep your child's things in the house or get rid of their picture or whatever, your gut feeling that, no, I want to keep these here, is correct. You are the one that knows what's best for you. So continuing bonds is a second key.

Michele Benyo [31:35]:

And the third one is conversation, having conversations with your child around this loss and around other griefs as well. I share the story of all of us experience grief in childhood first, and it's not always the death of a loved one. For me, the first grief that I remember was the loss of a floating toy. I was at the lake, and he got away. Wally the walrus, my riding floating toy that was so fun, got away from me, and he started to float off. And the adults who could swim, tried to get him, but the wind took him out of reach.

Michele Benyo [32:19]:

And I had to stand on the beach and watch him float. I watched him until he was a dot on the horizon. And I felt, I mean to this day, and that was decades ago, to this day I feel that feeling of, oh, I've lost him. He's gone. I'm never going to get him back. And that's what grief is. Mark Twain has a quote that says, and I'm paraphrasing it, but it's in all matters of grief, a child's loss of a doll and a king's loss of a crown are losses of the same weight.

Michele Benyo [32:59]:

The fourth key then is to honor grief, to honor childhood grief, so that kids can learn that grief is natural. Yes, it was just a toy, which is what many of us as adults would say, and we can get a new one. Or the dog is hit by a car, we'll get a new puppy. Well, fine, but it won't be that puppy. I mean grief is something that we need to help children recognize is very real and normal and natural. And we experience it, we experience loss, and then this is how we live forward. Those are the four keys.

Michele Benyo [33:43]:

The first one is that self-care. The second one is maintain continuing bonds. The third one is to invite conversation. And the fourth one is to honor grief, even children's grief. If I lost Wally the walrus today, it wouldn't be a case for grief with me, because I'm an adult, but it was for me as a child.

Alyssa Scolari [34:06]:

It was. Absolutely.

Michele Benyo [34:07]:

Yeah.

Alyssa Scolari [34:08]:

Incredible advice. Absolutely incredible. Thank you for that. I've learned so, so much, and I can only imagine that the listeners have learned so much too. Even phrases like siblings by heart and secondary loss, these are things that are not talked about a lot, but are so, so crucial and vital. We've also talked a lot about the importance of communication. How it is so important to continue this conversation. Now, is that what you would say is one of the biggest mistakes that parents or adults would make regarding children and grief?

Michele Benyo [34:50]:

Yes. I would put it at the very top.

Alyssa Scolari [34:52]:

Very top.

Michele Benyo [34:55]:

Yeah. That idea that we don't want to talk about it. Like my daughter, when she was 15 months old, she was picking up the vibes. I mean, when they're around us and we're experiencing this, they pick up on it. They're very perceptive. They're watching us. They're listening to us. They're feeling us.

Michele Benyo [35:19]:

And if we don't tell them what's happening, they are going to feel very insecure, very worried, very scared. They're going to see us being upset, and they're going to wonder, is mom going to be able to take care of me? She's not herself. So talking to them is really the most important thing we can do. And we don't need to tell them everything. We just need to tell them enough so that they know what's going on. Of course, be age appropriate.

Michele Benyo [35:51]:

And one of the things that is so counterintuitive for adults is that we really should use the word dead and died. That's the only word that really tells the child what happened. If we use those other words, they don't quite know what that means.

Alyssa Scolari [36:11]:

Right. It's very confusing for children to say words or phrases like, your brother or sister gained their wings. Or your brother and sister are in heaven. Like it's very confusing for kids.

Michele Benyo [36:22]:

Yes. Yes. And it's true that young children, three and a half younger, don't necessarily know what dead means, but they get the vocabulary word, just like they get all the other for vocabulary words that we give them, and they grow into understanding it. And we can tell them, your brother died. He can't talk to you anymore. He can't feel. His body stopped working. And he can't do these things anymore. You can tell him that we bury him or whatever, or just that they're not going to see him again.

Michele Benyo [37:03]:

And then let their questions guide the information that you give them. And that's why as they get older and they understand it more, then they're going to ask some of the questions they maybe didn't ask earlier. But they still know that what happened is this thing called dead. And so they never have any doubt that they're not going to see this person again.

Alyssa Scolari [37:26]:

Exactly. Exactly. Thank you.

Michele Benyo [37:28]:

And they're not afraid of that the way we are. Adults don't want to use those words. I had to learn to say my son died. I had to learn to be able to get that phrase out to anybody, let alone my daughter, because we don't want to describe it that way. But to my daughter, it's just a word. It's what happened. Kids don't shy away from that word the way adults do.

Alyssa Scolari [37:55]:

Right. Kids do not attach the same level of heaviness or stigma or shame to so many words. That's something children learn as they grow into adults. We learn so much from children.

Michele Benyo [38:09]:

We do.

Alyssa Scolari [38:10]:

We really do. We really do. That's a whole another podcast-

Michele Benyo [38:14]:

That is.

Alyssa Scolari [38:17]:

Michele, thank you so much for being here today. If people would like to find you, where can people reach you?

Michele Benyo [38:24]:

They can reach me at my website, goodgriefparenting.com. Right at the top of that page, they can download a copy of my Good Grief Guide. So it's the Good Grief Guide on goodgriefparenting.com. And in the Good Grief Guide, I actually do provide more information about some of these ideas of grief that are misleading for us and how we cope with it. As well as suggestions for actually how to talk to kids, because that's the other thing. Okay, you tell me to talk to my child, how exactly do I do that?

Michele Benyo [39:03]:

So I would just ask all of your listeners to download this Good Grief Guide, whether or not you know anyone right now, any child right now who's grieving, so that you have it when you need it. Or you have it to share with someone who may need it. And you don't have to go looking for how to do this. And hopefully you never will need it, but you may, and you may be able to support someone else. And then if you want to reach me personally, my website is the place to do that as well. So that's goodgriefparenting.com.

Alyssa Scolari [39:39]:

Yes. That's even a great resource to keep on hand for the therapist. My therapist listeners, something I definitely will be keeping on hand for myself as well. You all know the drill, the link is in the show notes. So go on over, check that out.

Alyssa Scolari [39:58]:

Michele, thank you again for joining me and for being so vulnerable, sharing your story. This is a really hard thing to talk about, but I learned so much and I appreciate the work that you are doing, because you are not alone in what you have gone through, and you are speaking so that others can feel supported. Thank you so much for everything that you are doing.

Michele Benyo [40:27]:

Thank you, Alyssa. I was very happy to have the opportunity to be here. Thank you.

Alyssa Scolari [40:33]:

Thanks for listening everyone. For more information, please head over to lightaftertrauma.com, or you can also follow us on social media. On Instagram we are @lightaftertrauma. And on Twitter it is @lightafterpod. Lastly, please head over to patreon.com/lightaftertrauma to support our show. We are asking for $5 a month, which is the equivalent to a cup of coffee at Starbucks. So please head on over again, that's patreon.com/lightaftertrauma. Thank you. And we appreciate your support.

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