Love and Compassion Podcast with Gissele Taraba

Transcript

[00:00:00]

Jessica Campbell: Hello and welcome to the love and compassion with Gissele. We believe that love and compassion have the power to heal our lives and our world. Don’t forget to like, and subscribe for more amazing content today. I have my most beloved sister, Jessica Campbell, talking about weight loss and compassion.

Gissele Taraba: Jessica Campbell started her journey when she was 45 weighing 270 pounds. She’s lost over a hundred pounds and decided to create a YouTube channel, where she could engage in dialogue about weight loss. Weight related disease education and how to achieve weight loss in an affordable way that honors a person’s way of living.

And I would also say compassionately too. And this was really about her journey and figuring out how to live a balanced life. So today we’re going to be talking about weight loss, compassion, maybe Bridgerton and relationships. Please join me in welcoming Jessica Campbell. Hi [00:01:00] Jessica.

Jessica Campbell: Hello Giselle. Thank you so much for having me.

I really appreciate this.

Gissele Taraba: Oh, no worries. Thank you so much for coming on the show. I mean, we’ve been talking a little bit about working together. And I knew that you were the person that I wanted to have a conversation, especially about weight loss and compassion, having gone through your own weight loss journey.

And also, you know, some of my listeners might not know. That you are one of the first people that really taught me about compassion. We were both very young and you would talk to me about how to look at people beyond the good or bad. And how to look at my relationships with, you know, our parents and other people in a very, very kind way.

And so I am forever grateful and thought you would be the perfect. Person for this conversation. Can you tell the listeners a little bit about how your weight loss journey kind of began? You know, like the path to get there? And then maybe some of the most important things you’ve learned from that journey.

Jessica Campbell: Absolutely. So the first thing [00:02:00] was that I was going through a lot of existential maybe questions at the time where I had already had the kids. I was trying to find a place in terms of What, what I could do after because my whole world where my kids my husband at the time but I didn’t feel that I had purpose, but there was an addendum to that.

The addendum was that every day I would get up. I would feel weighted back. In weighted by the weight, weighted by the fact that I couldn’t breathe. And the fact that the, the weight was weighing so heavily upon me that I couldn’t even I couldn’t work. I became, less and less active and engaged in my life.

Now, the precipice to that is the fact that you go into your doctor’s appointment and your doctor says, well, you’re [00:03:00] pre-diabetic, you also have high blood pressure. Mm-Hmm, . And and they weigh you obviously. And that’s, you know that the observable weight was 270 pounds. Now that I did not act.

Right away, so I think I was actually a little bit heavier, but I mean, it’s neither here nor there the weight is wasn’t what was the issue was the fact that all my,health was going. Going on a downhill spiral, so I decided to take care of my health and this is actually pre. My separation, my divorce, It was, I think that the, the problem with any journey is that, you know, everyone has to, there’s the old you, or there’s the you that’s existing at that time and the, and the vision you [00:04:00] are not necessarily aligned at that time. They’re just 2 different ideas. And because there are two different ideas that you have to buy into it and then other people have to buy into it.

So that is very complicated because that is such a complicated feature. If you are not completely sold on it, you’re still figuring out how do you imagine your family being able to buy into it. So that long division was basically the inherent problem that took over my whole life.

Because. If I’m going to add to it, in order for me to be able to find correlate the old me and the vision, everything, every aspect in my life had to fail. And it wasn’t because it had to it because it did. It got to the point where I was failing at everything that I said, this bottom. [00:05:00] It’s going to forever and continue.

Gissele Taraba: How do I decide to surrender to it and say, It doesn’t matter which bottom I go because the bottoms continue. How do I find myself out of it without hurting myself any further? Yeah, sorry, I just wanted to point out you just said something very, very powerful, which is, you know, and I think this is why so many weight loss programs fail because they’re focusing at the reason of behavior.

I’m just going to eat less calories what you’re talking about, which is kind of a bang to start the conversation. Really is about shifting identity. It’s you have to see yourself and act in a different way. And that, like you said, can cause a real ripple in your relationships because they see the old you, they’re comfortable with the old you and what you, what you said, what you needed to do is to destroy that old identity and not in a harsh, harmful way, but in a [00:06:00] way that you needed to see yourself in a different way as a person who was.

Quote unquote, thinner or thin. Right. Sorry. Continue.

Jessica Campbell: Yeah. And it’s not even the thin part, it’s the part where you are able to do things.

Gissele Taraba: Oh, yes. Thank you for that clarification,

Jessica Campbell: because I, I do want to clarify that.

 because I have been overweight since I was a child, there’s a huge difference between being overweight when you’re young. And that’s all, you know, because there’s inherent problematic things here. Then when you’re older in your 40s and 50s, you start gaining weight and now both. situations, you do have to manage them with your lifestyle because absolutely it, that is all about it.

 how do we honor our lives and the way we want to live and start seeing visible things like weight loss. [00:07:00] We can talk about that a little aspect, maybe later on the conversation, but what I’m trying to say here is the fact that specifically me, I had to find a new adult identity when there was no adult identity to be related, I had to imagine somewhere else.

And this is where I would say, how would energetic. Woman of 50 or, or a 45 look like, what would she look like? What would she do? How would she behave in a meeting And those are so, so many intangibles.

I would have little things like, for example, you know, the actress Selma Hayek and, JLo and, how do they become the women that they become? Not necessarily even just specifically to them, but how do they get up in the morning? How do they, how do they deal with their lives?

And specifically I wanted to live no longer [00:08:00] angry and with grace. So every morning I would get up and despite what was going on in the world at that time. A lot of things were, very

painful to live and but I would get up and I would say, how do I live with grace? and forgiveness. And how do I live with compassion? Because as insignificant as, I thought my person was, I always woke up. You’re absolutely beautiful.

I would get up and I said, no, but even if nobody believes it, you’re absolutely beautiful. You’re a gentle, female, graceful being. And then I started to morph into that. It’s not about image. It’s about impersonating[00:09:00]

a beautiful side of the human race.

Gissele Taraba: I think it’s about becoming more of yourself.

Jessica Campbell: Yeah. Becoming

Gissele Taraba: more authentically you.

Jessica Campbell: That’s a secondary. But what I was trying to say is that when I was 250, 240, that’s all I would focus. I would focus and I would say, everything is failing in my life.

How do I bring grace into the day? How do I bring compassion into the day? How do I look beyond me? Yeah. Because I mean, I’m not dealing as a nurse. I’m not dealing with with my cause. I’m being present because my life is like I’m, it’s raining cats and dogs. I cannot just look at the cats and the dogs.

 you know what I mean.

Gissele Taraba: Yeah, yeah, I do. Yeah, yeah, it’s what you’re talking about is embodiment, embodying the identity that you want. And I remember early in your, not [00:10:00] so early, but in your weight loss journey in terms of, you know, on your journey to losing a hundred pounds is you, I remember you telling me I’m an athlete.

And then you would actually wear outfits and you would tell me, like, people would randomly come up and you’re like, Hey, are you an athlete? Like, they would ask you that. And I found it so incredible. And it was so inspiring. You mentioned, like your weight loss journey as a child and you know, you and I are sisters.

So I’ve sort of seen your journey throughout. And one of the things I observed was just how, how much like our parents in that sort of, like how that that navigated the conversation of childhood weight in, in the kind of the traumatizing impact that sometimes the comments that parents make to their children about their weight.

Rather than focusing on healthy eating what have you learned about your [00:11:00] journey that you wish maybe parents would know about like engaging in conversations with kids around weight?

Jessica Campbell: I fall back to the health in every size,

just because at the time when I was a kid, I was also fairly active. I used to dance and play outside and, and, you know, I was taller than most people. I am,

Gissele Taraba: you were told for South American, Jesus, you’re still tall. Yeah.

Jessica Campbell: Yeah. Five, nine. But you know, by an average woman in. In Peru, it would be 5 and maybe under.

So I was quite tall. But most importantly, I think that there is something to be said about

focusing on solutions instead of labels. Because

Gissele Taraba: when I

Jessica Campbell: was 10, I was 11, I was 12, I [00:12:00] was 13 you know, every doctor’s appointment, my weight was a problem. You know, my stretch marks were a problem. My, you know, my shape was a problem. And there was never, aside from you really need to look at your weight, there was never anything else.

And, and if I’m going to shift hats here, I’m going to say health care is not very good at giving you tools aside from, you know, less carbs, more, protein and, and your keto is keto esque type of sheet, very impersonal.there’s noSitting there with the patient and actually let’s talk about this.

Now, having said that, I don’t think I, I should go into in depth of what our health care problems are, but I just want to align that the fact that children [00:13:00] is specifically and maybe this has changed, but certainly in the 70s it was more focused on. You need to lose weight. You’re not, you know, you are late, you’re labeled obese and this is your problem.

And at 13 years old, how can this possibly be your problem alone? You’re, you’re a child. So that’s why in my humble opinion, when it comes to children, I think there has to be a lot of tact and a lot of compassion when it comes to size. And in the end of the day. It isn’t about the weight. It’s about a person feeling okay with the body that they inhabit.

Gissele Taraba: Since you mentioned the healthcare, I I’m going to go there. Because healthcare solution to weight loss is Ozempic and I remember fen fen and I [00:14:00] remember all the other weight loss things that they just push on you and now it’s Ozempic and now people are getting like Ozempic face. I don’t know. So really the solution.

My friend,

Jessica Campbell: I just. Give me a second. So one of the things I do want to add and maybe engage in for this conversation is that I did take fen phen when I was maybe in my early 18, 19, 20s maybe. It wasn’t fun for me. I remember I’m going from, like, taking and going from Ryerson to Union Station in, like, 5 minutes or less.

I ran the whole time because my heart. My heart had increased the palpitations agreed so much that I felt like I was so anxious. And so I had to get off it because it cost me anxiety, anxiety and and not depression. It was completely my heart would go from [00:15:00] a regular 70 to 100 and something, and I had to catch up with it.

And that’s how it felt.

Gissele Taraba: I remember one of the things I noticed as your sister and having known you all my life was that you actually became a little bit paranoid.

Jessica Campbell: Yes, I was.

Gissele Taraba: You, you thought that I hated you and that I didn’t want you to be successful or all these other things. And I’m like, this is.

Jessica Campbell: I agree, I agree.

I had to get off it. So, but, but let’s go back to Ozempic and let’s go back to the reasoning behind why. Obesity is now considered a chronic disease. First, that is very important to actually acknowledge that this is a very important move to have it. Because it is a chronic disease, I will, I don’t know.

I am trying my best to, to learn how to listen to my body in terms of satiation. So we have to, because it’s a process [00:16:00] that, that the obesity has to be treated as a process that will, that might never go away. So, it does qualify as chronic disease. the reasoning behind why Osempec is so now successful is the fact that it, it gets rid of the food noise that is your feelings around food.

It, it gives you more of a perspective of yes, you are full and therefore do, you really need to eat more, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So, now, the proviso here is that I don’t know enough, enough about ozempic. Yeah. But it is, it is a very helpful medication when you really try to get.

Into that sphere of getting rid of the food noise. Now, the reason [00:17:00] why some people should not take it versus some people should take it because we do. I believe that is given to people that are severely obese. And I, I endorse that up because you got to get, you got to start somewhere. And, and, and I’ve been in that sphere where you don’t know where to begin.

 there’s no way to know you, you have to start somewhere and Ozempic is an excellent way to begin where the problem lies is the fact that the weight loss is not this. Indiscriminately, you lose weight. You just lose weight. And it is particularly dangerous in our subset, 50 year old women that we’re in danger of osteoporosis of continual muscle loss and things like that because of, the fact that we’re growing older, that’s the thing that we lose.

Gissele Taraba: Now, weightlifting and exercise, those are how we preserve [00:18:00] what we have. And if we are going to use ozempic, we need to have the lifestyle to support that weight loss. Yeah. And so, and I think that’s what goes to what you were talking about in terms of identity.

Right, the shifting of behaviors and understanding why you have those behaviors to begin with. I think my concern around ozempic is really is that here’s a pill. make it go away, but you’re not addressing the issue. I think one of the things that I’ve noticed, and I’ve spoken to a number of people on this, but this may not fit for everyone.

And so I don’t want to make a blanket statement is some of the people that have shared with me information about their weight loss journeys. What they had said was really, as they started to shed the weight, Emotional stuff started to come up. And so they noticed that the weight was sort of like a protection, if you may, like, like a bubble, like a bubble wrap.

And it’s very similar to what people do in hoarding. [00:19:00] Hoarding is also a bubble wrap, except it’s a physical bubble wrap. And so for those people that are Using weight as a protection, then something like Ozempic is not really going to help them address those, the emotions that come up with, with, as you release.

Or maybe I’m wrong. I don’t know. What are your thoughts?

Jessica Campbell: So I am going to have to agree in that, in that sphere. And, and if I may, like all my journeys since I was small have always been. about application of a diet into my life and how do I put it in when that was never ever ever how how sorry let me backtrack by saying the last time I started my weight loss which I was successful that’s not how I approached it how I the first 20 off pounds was [00:20:00] just through therapy was just having someone to talk to and to actually engage them in conversation about how I deal with the world.

So I would say the first 20, 30 pounds, it was really nothing about, changing my life, but changing my mind.

Gissele Taraba: I think that’s very important. So

Jessica Campbell: where Ozempic comes in is that it’s, again, one of the a tool. Mm-Hmm. That’s sometimes is not used appropriately.

we all hope we all hope that the tool will be useful.

Gissele Taraba: Yeah, and I thank you for that reminder because it doesn’t have to be this or that it could be this and that and I think that it’s important to use it as one of like, you know, as part of your toolkit.

I want to go back to you know, something you had said earlier, which is talking about, you know, like, Healthy weight and loving your body and listening to your body. [00:21:00] And I, I don’t know if you’ve heard this. There’s been lots of things on TikTok about Bridgerton. The actress, Nicola. I don’t watch Bridgerton.

But I know people that do. Oh, yes. So, so there’s this gorgeous, beautiful actress. And you know, she would be what people consider on the plus size and she is very popular and has this starring role and people are ruthless. And there was an article in the spectacular or whatever that article was.

And they were just so harshwhy are people so harsh about weight? I have a theory, but I’m interested in what your thoughts on are in terms of like, It’s just like what gives people the right she’s doing her job. She’s doing her best.

She’s doing fantastic because she’s got a leading role in this Bridgerton. So, and she’s gorgeous. So like, what’s the beef? I don’t get it.

Jessica Campbell: So in my theory would be that it’s not about Nicola at all. It’s about [00:22:00] us as a society. and I do want to bring back a little bit of a humble pie here in terms of me.

I used to be able to, you know, things like that would trigger me to why? Because if they’re mirrors, they’re mirrors of what we are and what imperfections we find in ourselves, we, we tend to be very critical of. So. So, yes, so you don’t want to see a heavy set woman get a completely handsome, rich guy. It’s a fallacy, right?

You know, the first perception you get is, well, that’s ridiculous. people attract similar attractive people, which is completely. And absolutely ridiculous to say and to believe, but yet we believe it as a society. And and why? Because we do see [00:23:00] our imperfections acutely.

We just hope that the rest of us don’t see it as, as much and we like to pretend that it does. But interestingly enough, other people have more insight into ourselves than some of us do. So therefore I would. I have to say it’s never about the actress. It’s about us and how we handle things that do not make sense in our brain.

Gissele Taraba: I completely agree with you. It’s a rejection of ourselves because it’s like, no, it has to be the perfect girl with the perfect nose, with the perfect outfit, with the perfect body that gets the perfect guy. It’s because we reject ourselves.

Jessica Campbell: I have to tell you, I have to tell you as a person that has been dating, looks will only get you.

Maybe four or five dates

Gissele Taraba: At the end of the day, connection has to be two like minds you know, understanding that there’s compatibility.

Jessica Campbell: Ability and [00:24:00] understanding, and the other,person has to match you in interest.Going back to weight loss and how we deal with each other is the fact that we really undervalue connection,

Gissele Taraba: which is why we’re in the state we’re in as a society. And I think that’s the issue too, is that we are so worried about our physicality.

We don’t have healthy examples of aging.

Jessica Campbell: Yes. But can I, can I? Absolutely. But I do have to tell you one thing about about, about that is that physicality, our calling card, you can say what you will and I agree with you Yeah. Is that it’s a lot of misguided interpretations on how a person should look at every age.

Gissele Taraba: Mm.

Jessica Campbell: But we need to. We need to come to an understanding that our presentation is our calling card, [00:25:00] evil or not evil.

So understanding that that is our calling card is very, very important. Not to say that we must. Aligned to it, but we must be understanding of it because it because it’s because it’s not because you want to look a certain way is because you want to understand that it’s because everyone will bring. Hate into whatever someone can say, you could be saying something very important and someone would say, Oh, you have crooked, crooked, like I wouldn’t be talking So, because you know that that’s your calling card, and that that’s what they’re seeing you could say, Thank you very much for your thoughts. And concerns my teeth are are what I like about me. Too bad. So sad. I’ll see you. I’ll [00:26:00] see you. But, but, you know, did you hear the message? No, now you can feel that and not answer, but being in that frame of mind that you understand that your image is your calling card, regardless of how you feel about it.

It’s the beginnings of an understanding that you will receive hate, you will be at the bottom of the barrel, and you will still be okay.

Gissele Taraba: And I think that goes to what you were saying about life being a mirror, right? Like, You know, I think there are times when I feel most insecure about things that that life that mirrors back that I would get comments, right.

But to be honest, I’ve never gotten comments, but I’ve gotten comments about my nose because I was very insecure about my nose. And so people would call it the witch nose and all of that stuff. But as soon as I started actually really loving my nose and saying, you know what, my nose is unique. My teeth are unique.

That’s just what it is. I don’t get those comments anymore. And even if I did, I would laugh my ass off because [00:27:00] it’s hilarious. But, but it really doesn’t. And so it has no power over me. I don’t need to give it power. I don’t need to feed that. And so it does give us an opportunity, like you say, to really step up into our own power, but it is interesting how much.

We, how we have a specific perspective on, like you said earlier, how people, these particular people should follow these particular people, because the truth of the matter is, when you look at human beings, we come in all different shapes and sizes and colors. And it’s like a beautiful garden, right? It’s like, imagine if the gardens were just always roses and they’re all look the same, that would be so boring, but there’s so much diversity.

And instead of celebrating that we’re trying to make everything the same and assimilate and people have the same noses and people have the same looks. And so. And to me, that’s the weight thing has to do with that as well. One of the people I follow regardless of what people think about celebrity, I’m not a big [00:28:00] celebrity follower, but I do like Lizzo and I think she’s gorgeous and I love that she is providing Outfits that are like different size.

Cause that was always an issue in terms of like, and the clothing is beautiful. And so, yeah, you are providing for a market, you know, just because you’re a plus size person doesn’t mean you have to wear a mumu and so to be able to see beauty and all these different sizes and also people that are very small and, and like, very, very thin

And so being able to to express your own creativity and beauty and honor it in different ways without having to sort of fit into a mold, I think, is really important.

Jessica Campbell: Oh, I quite agree. NowThere’s two, things that I think about when I think about the subject, she is also going through a weight loss journey is that a lot of people underestimate the transition you and the transition you, it’s actually a lot more than the present you.

Because [00:29:00] we all transition. I do want to voice something about. the BMI, which is the basal mass index. I think that’s what it is. It’s, it’s a unit that it’s been vilified a lot. Why? Because it’s not discriminative between bone muscle or fat.

The reason why I bring this up is because of this.

It’s a useful tool, another tool to assess

the risk of, of chronic disease. While you said You know everybody, no matter what their body is beautiful, what I hope to accomplish with my YouTube channel is to bring insight into saying, while we are, we, we have that our bodies are so wonderful that it can absorb an amount of [00:30:00] Of weight. The problem is, is that we don’t know what five pounds will set you to towards chronic disease.

So, for example, if we have a beautiful 20 year old girl that has 2030 pounds, and she’s still active living her best life and her and her blood work is pristine. We don’t have to worry about her. Really? I mean, you know, there might be a. Point in her 50s when we might have to if she if she continues to gain, but what we what we are looking there is how do we keep it in in the align to where we are keeping chronic disease at bay, which is what I’m a huge advocate about

In the end game in my YouTube channel is to make people understand that these chronic diseases are fixable, they’re reversible, but it takes [00:31:00] you to do it to help us. Care health care providers in order for us to be able to move as a society towards better health, because our health care inherently is not going very, very well.

The latest paper that came out out of the Ford government you know, it’s that we’re going to be losing a lot of nurses PSW. So, in order for us to contribute individually is that we need to observe our own health. We need to self care.

Gissele Taraba: And I, and I think that’s so important because I think something from my perspective about health care is the lack of holistic perspectives, right?

Like, other than physicality and symptom management, the whole being. Including spiritual, including like all of the other parts is not just kind of serially and separately.

Jessica Campbell: Yeah, absolutely. And I have to add that, you know I think that [00:32:00] the observable. It’s always very easy to capture and monetize.

What is not, what is not so easy is the subjective. How do we capture mental health? If it’s not quantifiable. If we’re not, if we cannot put it in paper, we’re not going to fund it.

Gissele Taraba: Yeah, that’s why it’s up to us to take care of our own health.

Yeah. I wanted to go back to the issue of BMI because I think one of the things that I have observed with this younger generation and through TikTok and all of those is the, The focus on weight you have very thin people really like, like people that are putting potentially themselves at risk, having food restrictions, eating disorders.

And so the prevalence of that among young people as a way to maybe some could have control over their lives, maybe address whatever issues. Or whatever might be happening for them. I think [00:33:00] there is that definite worry about things such as BMI on young people and whether or not that’s an appropriate measure for them as they grow and mature and need calories to menstruate, especially for women, What are your thoughts on that?

Jessica Campbell: Yes, I actually agree in terms of how it should be approached with young people. I don’t feel that I should, for example, say to my boys well, your BMI is this. What I would say is as a healthcare provider, I would, I would have it as a useful tool because in the hierarchy, I have more education about the matter.

I’m not, not that I’m more intelligent. I’m 50. I’m also a nurse. This child is a child. They should observe. serve things that they understand in the world that they’re with. Being a little delulu in every aspect of our lives is always good as well. So what I’m trying to say is that while as a healthcare provider, [00:34:00] I would observe that and I would suggest diets and tools to ensure that I am observing some quantitative movement towards weight loss.

I wouldn’t share the BMI with younger people. Why? Because it’s not you. Useful, you will, you will need to have extra education. You will need to know where the flaws are.

one of the things that I’ve learned from my weight loss is that when you, first of all, I have an ED, it’s binge, it’s, it’s binging restricting. That was, that was me. And, and that I found out when I was on my journey with, with therapy. And hence why I lost the original 2030 pounds without applying anything of any, any changes in my life.

Why? So dealing with therapy, what I was doing with food,

 and [00:35:00] how I engaged into weight loss fully. Or rather in in increments, because for me, it wasn’t a one situation. It was let’s deal with this. Let’s have these handicaps. Let’s deal with this. Let’s have this handicaps, meaning that I would have 1 day where I would eat whatever I enjoyed.

That has become less and less and less dependent on it. Because while I still have my diagnosis. Or what my problems are. Those don’t necessarily go away sometimes I deal with that, but they become less and less, I would, you know, what, once I used to have it every 2 days, 5 years later, I have it every 6 months, maybe once a year.

Does that make sense? Yeah. So, one of the things that I do want to point out is. I did not want to buy another eating disorder and that was my non [00:36:00] negotiable my non negotiable with this weight loss and why it’s taken me five years to lose 100 pounds is because I, I had two provisos. The proviso one was, I did not, I, if I’m going to do this, I am going to not buy another ed.

I am going to be okay going to a restaurant, engaging in conversation and not worry about what I’m eating. And then not fret for the next five days. And I’m not going to restrict or do anything that will cause me harm. If I’m healing I’m healing. warts and all. The second proviso was, I was going to completely be open eyed about what was going on in my life.

And that actually began with me [00:37:00] sitting for three days. And honestly recording everything I was having to eat again, warts and all. Because I gave me insight into how much nutrition I actually intake. And I think that it’s important to note because a lot of. People start with the calculator online.

They say there’s 2000 calories you need to. I, in my humble opinion, that’s not where you should be starting. You should be starting on how much your body takes realistically and reduced gently from that observation. Because what that will do is will give you insight into how much intake you really do, and it doesn’t restrict you as much as you think you do.

Gissele Taraba: Yeah, and I think those strategies make it more doable as you change your identity, right? And, you know, throughout this conversation, you’ve been saying some key things. And in particular talking about observing and being very [00:38:00] curious. And for me, that’s really kind of the beginning or the essence of compassion.

How has compassion helped you in your weight loss journey?

Jessica Campbell: Compassion has had a lot to do with it. Self compassion is more important than anything else. I began to say, to say to myself, I forgive you. not only that, not looking at things in a victim hood way, meaning that I would be gone to look at people as the limited humans that they are, and that they’re doing the best they can.

And the default, whether it was true or not, is that because they’re doing the best they can, they’re not doing it maliciously. Because when I began my mornings saying you are absolutely beautiful. People don’t have as much [00:39:00] malice as you think they do. They’re not doing this to hurt you. They’re doing it for their own, their own situation, which you’re not privy and it’s none of your business.

I would date a guy. He, if, if he was cheating, not cheating, seeing other girls, I wasn’t concerned. Why? That’s their journey. Not mine. Do I like them? Not really. Well, not second date. it’s not a long division. I started compassion to myself, compassion to others, treating them, giving them the benefit of the doubt in terms of, I’m not going to try to control what I have no Control over not insight into it.

I have no insight into aside from what they tell me, or what other people tell you, or how they behave. You have no other insight into the intricacy. So, it’s a whole new world. I have My own [00:40:00] problems to deal with, right? So having compassion towards myself was mostly a non negotiable having compassion to others was the second thing in terms of accepting them as they were bringing their stuff to the table.

Gissele Taraba: Yeah, yeah, and what you said is so powerful.

Jessica Campbell: was going to say that you know, you mentioned sort of radical honesty and I think for me compassion helped me do that and really take a look at my life and really understand where I needed to change.

Gissele Taraba: And that actually helped me realize I did have a eating disorder, except mine was to control food. Like, I just, I would eat very little just because when I was at the time, it was the only thing that I could control. And so Going back and realizing and say, Yeah, but we’re from a place of non judgment, right?

And going, Oh, yeah, that was that. Oh, that’s weird. No, I guess I was doing the best I could in that moment. and you start to really become radically honest with [00:41:00] yourself and really take a look at that. bag of stuff. I had actually put on TikTok. I was doing when I, when I, in this process of becoming really radically honest with myself, I started to, whenever I had pain in my body, really just sitting with it and saying, I’m here for you.

I’m not afraid. like diving deep in it and then things would come out like vocalizations or like silent screaming like it’s weird but afterwards you feel like you’ve released that pent up energy and so but that only came from really being honest with myself about where I was and I think that’s where compassion plays a really really big role.

Jessica Campbell: Yes and I would actually add that That that’s where exercise comes in and meditation and self reflection what I started to say to do in terms of exercise, it was just exercise. But then as I continued my journey, it was [00:42:00] more of a negotiation of how to approach a painful situation and how to live through it.

You know, when youLifting weights when you are actually running and you meet that threshold of I can no longer do anything. I cannot continue. And then you move past that and say, you actually do, you can continue. It’s actually a small example of how you can deal with stress.

Gissele Taraba: Yeah,

Jessica Campbell: and even when, for example, my arm right now is it’s it’s hurt and I get up every morning and I, I don’t do much.

I just observed that that I’m supposed to be working out and I move gently and try to increase my range of motion because I am now going back to 3 years ago when I couldn’t move this arm. But that’s okay. Because you go through this, phases of going backwards, coming back, [00:43:00] going backwards, coming back, and you have to be there has to be surrender to the fact that that will continue.

And I think that as humans, we are so used to the comfortable. We’re so used to the, the, the. Observing you know, how do I deal with in crisis? 1 of the things that I will always remember is that I heard someone says. said to me you’re doing the best you can with, you know, you’re doing the best you can in crisis and whatnot.

And you’re dealing with it. The fact that you’re over drinking, that’s okay because you’re going through a lot. One of the things that I had to do in order to, when I was doing through therapy, I had to get rid of that mantra.

I had to get rid of that mantra and say, and say to myself, I am thriving. Despite what is happening, I am [00:44:00] going to engage in meditation, even though my master’s is going up burning in hell in a shit show doing right. You know, work is not so good. My marriage is falling and things like that.

I had to say. Okay. I need to, I need to be okay. I need to show up. How do you turn is you don’t turn things around by just dealing and managing with food and with drinking and with numbing yourself. You manage showing yourself up because when I was at work and I wasn’t doing so well and my boss helped me through it.

I have to tell you my company is absolutely amazing in terms of that compassionate piece is that, you know, it’s, It’s because they showed up for me, I show up for it. And so I’m here. How do I turn things around. You have to look at it. You have to look at the ugly you cannot push away the [00:45:00] ugly, and then say to yourself, I am going to survive and actually thrive through this.

Now, interestingly enough. I think that is a very important to note. That’s how I observed my labs and my numbers is that I had all these numbers, you know, my blood pressure, my pulse, my I was pre diabetic, cholesterol was extremely high, all these numbers that I had in my blood work.

I had, I said to my doctor, and it wasn’t my doctor. He’s like, well, let’s do this in six months. I was like, no, well, I’ll be here three months. How do we fix this situation? And approaching each and every month, every number, like it was a situation. So not, not being blind by it. But facing it to, to. Facing it in front and say here.

Hello elephant. You and I are going to [00:46:00] have to be very well acquainted because you’re going away

Gissele Taraba: and I think that’s where the the importance of making and you mentioned this before making your vision a non negotiable. And as well in, in holding onto your vision and being, like you said, a little delulu, right, which is kind of this tick tock trend of like, okay, I, and it’s not about ignoring your circumstances.

People think that it’s, Oh, you’re being in denial. If you’re trying to manifest health or trying to manifest abundance or trying to manifest, no, no, it’s actually facing it and realizing it has no power over you that you choose your health. You choose your abundance. You choose to succeed. You choose. As a non negotiable, and you’re willing to look at your life and say, okay, I’m going to take ownership of this.

Yes. These are my numbers. Just because this is this in this moment doesn’t mean it’s going to be in the next moment or tomorrow or whatever. And I think that’s what you’re talking about is being able to sit with that and say, okay, I’m not losing vision. My vision is non [00:47:00] negotiable. But how do I work with what I’m where I am right now?

So meeting yourself where you’re at. And I think that’s the ultimate essence of compassion, is it not? Yeah.

Jessica Campbell: I agree, I agree, because you can absorb health despite diagnosis,

what it can do, it can just give you perspective into the things that you can, you can change you like your diet, you can start gently exercise, you can observe a different life to preserve your function, because function and diagnosis are 2 different animals, which we actually always.

Equal them

Gissele Taraba: on found. Yeah. Yeah.

Jessica Campbell: And then all of a sudden we’re, we’re, you know, terrible. We, we really we need to, we need to, we’re all we’re living with is to elongate life when we really should be focus is how do we best, how do we live our best, best life, despite our diagnosis.

Gissele Taraba: one of the things I noticed is that you mentioned movement several times. And I just want to point out how important that is.

I take qigong. [00:48:00] And one of the things my qigong teacher says is like movement enables you to flow the qi and that’s what creates longevity. But I’ve been really reflecting on the school system because, as you know, I’m writing my second book and and I realized just how much we teach children to sit down to stay stagnant and they have like little pockets of times when they go out and play, but sit down and then we expect adults to be.

moving around. But when you look at very young children, they’re constantly moving. It’s like they got bugs in their bodies, right? But when you look at adults, like they’re constantly just sitting. And so, but we’ve been conditioned to that. We’re not conditioned as young kids to allow our movement.

Jessica Campbell: And so there’s two issues with our obesity crisis and the ownership of the self.

Right. We, Why is it so hard for all of us to observe observe, you know being an owner is, is a, because we have like a lot of convenience [00:49:00] and everything’s triggered towards us moving less and less and less from our jobs to the fact that the grocery store is not, it’s not an achievable way to, to walk and come back.

We always look for convenience. And the more remote the places, like, for example, Cusco, when I was in Cusco, 70, 80 year olds used to climb up. Mountain supply mountains, they have no choice. Right? That’s that’s their life. They don’t have a car. There’s a car. It’s not useful there.

Gissele Taraba: Yeah,

Jessica Campbell: it’s a, you, you got to get out and walk is more convenient because humans are are always, always going to buy convenience and the places like the US and Canada are more driven into being more convenient using cars.

Gissele Taraba: Because geographically, they’re so far away, right? The geography in Canada is like.

Jessica Campbell: Exactly. So how do we, change that mentality or [00:50:00] how do we engage into movement?Anything from health to even the practical of getting up from a chair requires muscles, requires your, your bones being supported, but the assisting muscles.

So from your Or core to your arms. It all require an amount of muscle that we do lose by tendency as we grow older. Therefore, that’s why we have 60, 70 year olds using walkers and things like that. And some actually, some 70 year olds do not need any of that. Why? Because they have more muscle and that’s they made

Gissele Taraba: they made muscle loss.

They’re non negotiable. They’re like, I’m not going to lose muscle.

Jessica Campbell: Well, that is my non negotiable. But having said that. That is the inherent thing that I do stress is that movement and that we shouldn’t be at 50 year old moving the way we are moving. We should be requiring you [00:51:00] know, in this, I say, in the most compassionate way, I think that is important to note that.

A lot of, you know, friends and family say, Oh, you look a lot younger than what you are because of the way I move and things like that. But I have to say that I think. That I want to invite everyone to consider that maybe this is what a 50 year old look should look like, or looks like inherently. And then maybe we should all strive to be able to in our 60s, in our 70s, in our 80s to engage in our life, however, they look like is, is it unreasonable for our in our 70s to go on a bike ride with a loved one to, to, to actually have that idealized retired.

Instead of being hospital to hospital to hospital appointment.

Gissele Taraba: Yeah, you know,

Jessica Campbell: how do I, and I think that maybe that’s [00:52:00] an invitation to everyone. How do you help me sell the idea of us, senior people coming into seniors, how do we sell each other into the idea of idealized retirement.

Gissele Taraba: I had a guest on my show and she she was in her sixties when she started, she does something called aerial Zen.

She does pole dancing and she’s a 15 time. She is now in her seventies, 15 time world winner. Pole dancer. She started in her sixties. And so that was the same conversation we had together, which is like, we need to redefine what it means to age like you and I have heard our parents and our uncles and loved ones say, Oh, you know, never get old.

It sucks. It’s bad. You know, like everything hurts. And this is all just incantations. These are things we’re agreeing to. [00:53:00] Like you said, these have to be non negotiable. Perfect health is my non negotiable. Aging well is my non negotiable. Abundance is my non negotiable. So it’s all of those things and you get to dictate regardless of where you are in that moment.

And I think that’s the point you’re trying to make which is like regardless of where you are. I have two more questions. The first one being what is your definition of unconditional love? I’m asking all of my guests.

Jessica Campbell: My definition of unconditional love for me is to be present. With the person that I am interacting with and actually listening, not not for the, not for the point of me answering, but for the point of me.

Engaging and being present for that person and. For me to bring insight in order to collaborate. [00:54:00] And to engage. In interaction that is very, very much a collaboration.

Gissele Taraba: Yeah,

Jessica Campbell: so I don’t have to give people anything. I only have to give them my time and my attention and my presence. And I find that

that is my definition of unconditional loving someone.

Gissele Taraba: Yeah, beautifully said, like bearing witness. And you know, like we’ll probably leave this for another episode, but in terms of compassionate nursing, I know that I feel that you’re a very, very compassionate nurse who is able to do that for people

Jessica Campbell: Yeah. So where can people find you? Where, what is your YouTube link? What’s your Tik TOK page? Where do you have a website? Like where can people come and check you out or work with you or whatever? I

do have a Tik TOK. It’s called Jesse with a Y. Jesse I think it’s 1970.

Three, but my tick tock by my tick tock [00:55:00] secondary. I like to do that as as a thing. I think that by the biggest thing that I do do is my YouTube channel, which is JessicaRN I am on Facebook under the same name and Instagram as well. Just to give. People snippets of what the videos that I’m going to be doing that week.

Because if they find it interesting I like to engage in those types of conversations where we can front find a better way to engage in free, very accessible weight loss. Examples, because one of the things that I do, I do see is how expensive. Weight loss. Can be, and I, and I feel that weight loss movement.

Should be accessible for everyone. I think that’s like the nursing me in fact that, you know, you want to have everyone have access to [00:56:00] some sort of health journey or health increase or, or, or, you know, within their own comfortable positions because weight loss is unique.

You will not lose weight the same way I do just just because I do not eat the same. I don’t have the same values and beliefs you do, and I also don’t prize the same foods you do. For example, for me you know Pollo a la Brasa wouldn’t mean nothing to you, but for me, it gives me joy, comfort, so much so that I would make it in order for me to, it’s not just about me eating that.

It’s soothing, it’s reminding

Gissele Taraba: you.

Jessica Campbell: Remembering. Yes, exactly. So, so therefore. Examples of how I eat should not be your way of eating.

Gissele Taraba: You just reminded me of a story you know, [00:57:00] David likes to cook. And I had asked him to make a particular Peruvian dish. I can’t remember what it is. And he likes to make it fusion, you know, adds different things.

And I got, I got a little bit upset and I was like, well, this doesn’t taste exactly like my. Okay. And he’s like, well, but you know what? We’re just making it a little different. That’s okay. And I got really frustrated. And then I didn’t really think with myself and I’m like, okay, what’s really going on?

Just like, first of all, be grateful. Somebody made your dinner. Number two. Like, why are you holding on so tightly to it being done a specific way? And what I really discovered was that, that desire to feel that sense of home, that desire to feel that sense of connectedness to my childhood and to Peru and to the food we used to eat.

And so that it’s that history and that remembering and once I was able to realize that that there, and I realized that there are other ways to connect, not necessarily just through that. Particular food. [00:58:00] I was able to release it. And the next time I made it, I actually made the food that time. I made it a little fusion.

It was so good. Yeah. So thank you so much for coming on the show. This has been definitely an enlightening conversation. I’d love to have you back to talk maybe about compassion and nursing. And thank you for everyone who tuned in to the love and compassion podcast, which is now in 44 countries. Thank you so, so much and please join us for another episode soon.

Have a wonderful day. Bye. All

right.

Transcript

Gissele: [00:00:00]

 Hello and welcome to the love and compassion podcast with Giselle. We believe that love and compassion have the power to heal our lives in our world. Don’t forget to like subscribe for more amazing content today. We’ll be talking about how mindfulness can actually positively impact a culture.

I’ll be speaking to Ashley Williams voted top 40 under 40 by styled weekly enrichments, magazines, daring women of 2018. Ashley is a certified yoga specialist. A creator of mindfulness plus movement, RVA implementing therapeutic interventions, programs and professional development training that combines social emotional learning, mindfulness and movement.

She’s also founder of bare soul yoga and wellness in Richmond, Virginia, intentionally created to make yoga and wellness accessible to the black community, but welcomes all communities. Please join me in welcoming [00:01:00] Ashley. Hi, Ashley. Hi

Ashley: Giselle. How are you? I am well. it’s, it’s, So beautiful outside.

I’ve been like bird watching as I like move from one place to the next and like all the different environments So I’m excited to like sit down in this moment and just take in taking this conversation and the house that I’m sitting in.

Gissele: Beautiful, beautiful.

And I think that goes to show like about the embodiment. So you not only teach the stuff you live it, right? Can you tell the audience a little bit about how it is that you got started in this work?

Ashley: Yeah. So my mindfulness journey, or I would dare to say, my, my love for being present in the moment and all the ways that one may maybe lead to it started for me in 2000 and 12, when I.

Really just kind of within a big transition of my life from, you know, collegiate life [00:02:00] to work, professional work life to moving new locations and really experiencing a lot of the transitions and the feelings and the sensations that came with transition. So moving in the ebbs and flows of daily life, moving in and out of feelings of like anxiousness, but then also moving in and out of feelings of connection and disconnection.

And I ended up having. A loss that of one of my aunts that was really dear to me. And on top of all of the sensations that were coming from the transitions that was another transition that really that created a lot of disconnection and a lot of heavy emotion. And so I found myself first at a yoga studio and in a class and moving my body.

And I just remember feeling that. Moment of connection with all of the sensations that I was experiencing. So all of the. The, the pain that I was experiencing, the sorrow, [00:03:00] a lot of the loss and the grief that I was experiencing I had a moment to actually feel it because for a moment I had withdrawn from it.

And that was also not a good feeling. And there was something about being present in the moment with my body. With my mind with the emotions of my heart that kept me coming back and from then it went from, you know, that, that yoga asana, that movement based practice to really diving deep into the study and the science of mindfulness.

And understanding, you know, MBSR, so Mindful Based Stress Reduction, and literally practicing it every day in my world. From the brushing of my teeth to the sipping of my coffee to mindful communication when I was around others. And then from there, honestly, it’s just really snowballed into.

Wanting to know more and getting curious about myself through the practices, wanting to dive deep and study the practices, wanting to then [00:04:00] share the practices and also not just, you know, the formal practices, but then also the benefits of, of being in relationship with these, like with the science, but then with this also way of living in a way that had been benefiting me so much.

Gissele: Yes. Thank you so much for sharing that. And I think being present with our difficult emotions is so important for healing, right? But often we don’t do it because it feels so uncomfortable. What helped you get through some of those uncomfortable feelings?

Ashley: Yeah, the practice itself, you know, so the definition that I, when people are like, what’s mindfulness or, you know how do you practice it?

And, you know, the simple definition that I always land on is, you know, it’s simply paying attention to the moment that’s at hand. It’s the paying attention up to the presence and with an attitude of compassion, with an attitude. Of non judgment with an [00:05:00] attitude of acceptance and acknowledgment. And so that active practice of really checking in with myself, like, what’s going on with my body right now?

You know, how. How’s it feeling in this moment? How’s it responding to my environment? What’s happening in my environment, my environment right now? Like who’s, who’s around me? What do I see? You know how does what I see affect me? What do I hear? How is my body responding to that? And you know, there’s those moments of check in to just like pay attention that have really allowed me to move through uncomfortable moments.

Specifically, when you bring in like the non judgment and like the acceptance of them. I always like to say that, you know, stress, which can be synonymous with tension or pressure or disconnection disease, like that’s the gray matter between like what one may think should [00:06:00] be happening versus like reality.

So like what is actually happening. And so I have found that my most uncomfortable. Moments are moments in which my mind has conceived or thought something completely different should be happening than what’s actually happening in reality. that point of awareness for me has been a game changer to how I get through them because then I can ask myself the question, like, okay, what am I trying to change about this moment?

Or like, what part of this moment don’t I want to feel right now? Because I feel like I should feel completely different. And that can even be with like pleasant emotions, you know, like in moments of celebration, it’s like, Oh my gosh, like, It’s sometimes uncomfortable if, you know, a lot of tensions on you and you’re celebrating and you’re like, oh, I just want to go sit in the background, right?

That’s very much uncomfortable. And so being in the practice of acceptance without any judgment has been a game [00:07:00] changer and, and returning back and back to it over and over again. And in the moments when I feel uncomfortable,

Gissele: I love that and I completely resonated with your answer. We call it allowance.

Like can we just allow anything that is experiencing in the moment? And it occurred to me as you were talking that I felt having that presence with yourself, like that having showing up for yourself in a way that honors every aspect of yourself, I think leads to extraordinary things because you’re, you’re being there for yourself.

It’s a, it’s a form of love. It’s a form of being fully present with the being that you are in everything that you’re experiencing. And so I really felt that as you were talking. So I thank you for that.

Ashley: Yeah, of course. One of my values has been like maintain constant love. It’s it’s It’s an ode to my aunt’s life.

And you know, what, what started me on the journey. And so I always have to ask, like, how can I show myself the most love? How can I be constant in love? How can I allow what’s [00:08:00] happening and still be in in a space of love, whether it’s pleasant or unpleasant, and then also extending that to those. Both people and places and people around me.

So love is definitely at the root and at the core of even why I continue to stay in this practice of being present.

Gissele: Yeah. I, I completely agree. You know, I, I remember at one point in my journey, I remember asking myself, can I love everything in everyone? Can I, can I love everything that I’m experiencing?

Can I find love for it? And can I find love in that, that source or that, that God in other people? And sometimes it’s a struggle, but there’s, there’s a willingness and that really is what keeps me moving forward and trying to understand the whole concept of love. Yeah. Can you talk a little bit about your involvement with the mindfulness movement in the school system?

Can you talk a little bit about how you got started in some of the, maybe some of the outcomes [00:09:00] you might’ve seen in terms of mindfulness in the schools? .

Ashley: Yeah. I think one thing’s important is to as I start out really going back to that definition of, you know, mindfulness being present in the moment, right?

And, and bringing in compassion, right? Mm-Hmm. and bringing in non-judgment and acceptance and have you mentioned allowance. And so that’s really been the premise of a lot of my work when it comes into the schools. And so I began. And at the very early of my career, when I was working on a lot of mental health and behavioral health settings with youth and young adults, and at the time when I was finding the practice, I was also working with other individuals that.

We’re experiencing varying situations in their environments might have also experienced a lot of of the symptoms that come from having some type of mental health diagnoses or behavioral health change. And so when we think about being present right with those that can be a challenge depending on what it is and the supports [00:10:00] in which one have.

And so when I was going through my own transition and found the practice. I got really curious about what it looks like to then teach and educate and create space to be in some of the practices that I was learning within the environments that I was working in. So it kind of happened very much at the same time of my own self discovery and my own journey.

And so I was really curious about more specific how to use these practices and environments that we know that there have been experiences that have led to trauma. And so went in, did a lot of studying just around, like diving deep into trauma, the effects of what trauma looks like in the body, the effects of what trauma might look like in environments, the responses that someone that might have experienced in the past.

Certain types of trauma from from grief and loss from neglect or abuse from even like poverty and low socioeconomic statuses and the facts that, [00:11:00] you know, our social determinants really have in our health. And so as I studied those, I, you know, the one thing that really that really lit me up and ignited me to really want to advocate for these practices within institutions like schools and hospitals or youth and adult programs were the simple fact that a lot of the solutions were met with pharmaceuticals.

And you know, one thing that I think our practice, if we dive really deep into it, being mindful is all about knowing who we are. And there are certain things that I think can also be barriers to that. There’s some things that can be supplemented, that can supplement our identity and our experience.

And there’s some things that can actually be barriers and not allow us to really even connect. And so I got really curious of. Two things what it looks like to teach these skills that in which we hold that we can learn as humans as an individuals and we can strengthen them and they come from within with practice.

And it invites us to return back to ourselves, right? And [00:12:00] so versus you know, what does it look like to, to rely or to be in usage of a substance, whether it’s a pharmaceutical, or maybe even another another substance or drug. And so. Got really curious about that and wanted to figure out ways to really introduce it.

And so I started practicing in the environments that I worked with and using group classes and, you know, small, like small tutorials teaching people about like their senses. But I think the one thing that really kind of ignited me was the way that there was also a curiosity from other people, right, like more specifically for my experiences, you know, as a black woman working in predominantly black environments are predominantly like environments initially starting out at the very beginning, you might care about 10 years ago, but working in environments in which.

Proximity to education around holistic practices or contemplative practices. We’re not ones that were at the forefront, right? So creating space to reduce that disparity of education [00:13:00] around mindfulness or contemplative practices really lit me up. And so, started teaching it within the institutions that I was working within.

And really at that time, really trying to advocate for it, right? So in 2012 and 2013 I guess it’s like 12 or 13 years ago, you know, there wasn’t much high level. Mindfulness practices specifically within our school systems, within our juvenile correctional centers,

you might see you know, you might see more yogic philosophy practices and of course we pull our mindful practices, you know, in relationship to those, but we didn’t see kind of like a holistic model of, you know, You know, all the different ways in which mindfulness could be shared or all the different ways in which healing practices could be offered and utilized to address some of the mental behavioral health challenges that both our youth and our adults, whether they were being provided direct care or they were individuals offering the direct care.[00:14:00]

So like employees or maybe even the leaders or the administrators that were than creating the spaces. For direct care to happen by caregivers and or learn professionals. And so at that time, I did a lot of power points. And I did a lot of requesting presentations. I also did a lot of like work and saying, Hey, like, just let me show you that this works.

And so doing it at no cost and really meaning to make sure that it was accessible. And then over the years. I think what the practice does to is it works, it shows up. Right. So there’s so much power in the practice and people see some of the outcomes as an increased focus or a balanced A balance and emotion or regulated opportunity or improvement in self regulation within environments.

Clearer communication is one that I think comes up because, you know, once [00:15:00] again, the more that you know how to express what’s happening and your bodily sensations are with your mood. There’s an increase in improved relationships and healthy relationships because there’s deeper connection and ability to, to express whether it’s creatively, verbally, non verbally.

And so these are some of the things that we really started to see. And I can’t because my practice did start a lot with like yoga asana. I think one thing that’s important is that was an inlet for. Getting present with the body,

Gissele: you know,

Ashley: and so letting people really kind of share how they found more ease and their body.

They found more mobility and spaciousness and, you know, their shoulders. They found a deeper breath and a longer exhale, which helps regulate the parasympathetic nervous system and decreased cortisol level. So There’s so many holistic factors that I think that we need to bring high level to whether we are, [00:16:00] regardless of what method we might be using to create more presence in our moment.

Gissele: Yeah. Thank you. You said so many important things. The 1st, I’m going to focus on is the, it’s the over medication of children I was working in the child protection system and I was in quality assurance. So I used to actually talk to the young people.

And say, how can we improve services? And they would tell me about the medications and they would tell me about how it made them feel and how they didn’t find it helpful. And there was quite a high percentage of kids that were medicated, especially for ADHD.

And I was like, what’s happening? And in the end it ended up being that, People with trauma, like, it can look like ADHD because there’s so many triggers. And so I don’t know if that’s an effective way to manage people that have experienced trauma. And one of the things I loved about what you said is like

once we become aware of what people’s histories are, their experiences are, will [00:17:00] become kinder, more loving, more accepting and allowing of their behavior and get more curious about it than saying, well, there’s something wrong with you. Here you go. The other thing that I felt that was really important and maybe we could dive a little bit deeper on is the.

The need for acceptance of a specific program at all levels, right? So if you’re going to the school, it’s not just the kids that need the support. It’s the teachers and the principals. how does that help sort of a program become more embedded within a system?

Ashley: Yeah, I think that’s key. Specifically in the school environment that I work in, but I see it replicated in a lot of the school systems is that a lot of the teachers also attended the same school district, the same school.

And so you, you have. I have very shared lived experiences. I think on the opposite end of that is that, you know, you have some teachers that are within a school or leadership that’s within a school that actually have very different [00:18:00] experience than the students in which they, they have. And so I think the purpose in mentioning that is because lived experiences can be very different.

Right. But the human experience is very similar. And that’s where the curiosity is meant to take place because sometimes those environments in which, you know, there’s similarity and lived experience but there’s a difference in like the age you might see our kids behavior different because it might’ve been something that you experienced or might’ve been something that you actually.

Actually can resonate with or can’t resonate with and if, and if it’s your lived experience, that might not have been a very pleasant one or have been unpleasant, then. That can actually also breed heavy emotional sensation or thought. And so I think 1 thing that has been really important in working in this environment is really understanding the human experiences [00:19:00] of

Both youth and adults and the structure of the school systems when we are introducing these practices that are inviting us into our present moment, meaning they’re inviting us into our emotions. They’re inviting us to our bias. They’re inviting us into the way that certain like the way that certain sensations feel in our body.

And so there’s a, there’s a holistic model that I think needs to be. Kind of address and how we either deliver implement or even review what it looks like to create like a mindful school environment when we’re centering the well being because when we work with the school and this is one thing that I found in my experience is that we would work with our youth and we would have after school programming programming within the classroom.

Sure. I’m teaching various skills that enhanced creative expression that, you know invited in more self regulation invited in certain certain methods that helped communicate both verbally and non verbally in a mindful [00:20:00] way. And. We would teach them, we would have this classroom, we would have this setting, and then they would go into another setting, or they might go home where these practices not, were not necessarily taught.

So rather than creating a culture, right in which it could be practiced or taught, and you’re surrounded by individuals that, you know, have the same characteristics or value systems, we were just building character. And There was nowhere in the culture to then practice the character.

And so for me, it felt like while we were seeing benefits in the moment, which was like kind of like instant gratification, we weren’t creating a system that really invited us to then be in practice, which we know, you know, mindfulness is a practice. Being a compassionate human as a practice, returning back to ourselves as a practice.

It’s not something that you’re going to go into a 30 minute to 45 minute class. It’s taught to you. You get an opportunity to experience it and then you go back out and then you don’t necessarily see it [00:21:00] around you. And so. We felt that it was kind of sometimes doing a disservice in the long run, both for the time in which some of the professionals like the mindful instructors were going in to then offer, but then also a disservice to those that we were then sharing and building relationship with, like our students, because they didn’t, we didn’t offer that long sustainability or long term sustainability there.

And so there’s that. And I think when we think about with the teachers, It kind of goes the same in the same route where if we’re then working specifically with the teachers and then they are then wanting to utilize these within their classrooms, then in the kids don’t know them that quite yet, or they don’t have the capacities and learn in all of their classrooms.

You know, there’s sometimes a disconnect. And so. That is one thing that has been a priority when working within school systems is creating a whole school model where the same information that is shared with the youth is then shared with the [00:22:00] teachers, is shared with administration, and is also shared and goes home to the parents.

Because. It requires practice and community to then really reap the benefits of the, the characteristics that might come from those that are in relationship within a mindfulness practice.

Gissele: Yeah really well said. I completely agree with your perspective because what you’re trying to create is, is that culture is that culture of mindfulness, the culture of compassion is the, is the current program that you are involved in terms of the schools embedded within the schools, or is it something that is like project based

Ashley: Yeah, there’s a couple of different ways that I think that I could really answer that question because one of the biggest challenge and when you talk about funding has been the funding of sustainable work. I think that from an institutional side, the benefits of that the practices offer could be hugely impactful.

Once again, for our whole [00:23:00] school up from the students all the way up to there, our leadership administration. Dive deep into the community because there’s such a, there’s such a. Direct. Relationship between what happens in the school and what happens in the community. And so we know on paper, if there was consistent practice than that.

An engagement and a focus that there could be huge benefits and huge impact on not just the lives of our students, but then the relationships that then create these ecosystems. So there’s that. And when it comes to, I think the funding for it, you know funding a lot of times comes from research funding.

A lot of times comes from data that has occurred. And so historically, Mindfulness is really just, I mean, like I said, when I first started there were on my hand, like you could count on your hand how many people were really studying mindfulness and, and specifically in schools and with institutions and tying it to education.

It’s just recently over, I think over the [00:24:00] past five years where we’re really seeing a lot of like research funding kind of going into. These programs to, to, to get the results. And so there’s been a lack of funding to really support sustainable programs. And, or you have to do a program that’s going to reap a certain outcome, right?

So there’s some constraints there. And so for the work that I’ve. Done, I initially started 1st and foremost, like I said, just really going in and being accessible. So a lot of the programming that I offered was not at cost. And so we either did it on a donation base. Schedule in which schools could invite us in and, you know, I think one thing that I will dare say is that a lot of trust was built and moving into schools in that way.

A lot of deep relationship specifically with something that people were curious about and didn’t have a lot of information about. And so that then led to, you know, some school funding that came and more specifically, I’ll dare to say it came during the COVID. The beginnings of the COVID pandemic when.[00:25:00]

You know, the behavioral mental health and the social health of individuals was really a highlighted, really wanting to be addressed. And so we my organization bear soul also in the well, collective also partnered with other organizations. Maybe familiar like whole school mindfulness, which is, you know, a global organization and then other local organizations that really wanted to emphasize behavioral mental health.

And so really doing a lot of partnership with them and together to create these programs within school settings. And so that has been something that has really ignited the work. I have served as a program coordinator. And a trainer of mindful based restorative practices is what we really kind of like to call them.

And the work that I do a trainer for other educators and people that were volunteers. So they could then help support and build capacity for the need. And then I’ve also served as a mindfulness director, specifically under that direction of, but I mentioned whole school mindfulness.

Gissele: I love how, you know, this has been like [00:26:00] community initiative, you know, like you put forth your desire to provide assistance and be of service. And then you came together as a community to, to help and to actually impact humanity positively. This is why I think that these sort of initiatives can’t be A one off or funded by governments, they have to be embedded within the schools.

The school system has to be incorporating these as a core practice as a core value. It’s it’s the same with compassion. I think I think the whole system is shifting. I don’t think it’s sustainable. I don’t know about schools in the US, but I know the schools in Canada the things that they’re teaching are very outdated. the history is one sided. there’s this great dissatisfaction around the way that this school system is managed. These old systems in general seem to be collapsing. And so now I think it’s a perfect opportunity for us to really determine going back to your original comment.

 Who are you? Who do you [00:27:00] want to be? Like really understanding ourselves and really understanding then what do we want to create as a collective and as a system. And I think the foundation of that is the mindfulness and the compassion. I’ve been involved in, in many ministry, government funded things, and sometimes it’s just the flavor of the day.

Like, so now mindfulness is big and then they’ll put it, they’ll dump a whole bunch of money into it and then, and then they’ll move on to the next flavor. And it’s like, no, no, this is, this is important and this is something that I think should be embedded. I also think that the way that you guys are doing it, it is incorporated into the culture by teaching on all those different levels.

Have you found any sort of resistance among any group in particular, or has this always been like just generalized acceptance of the program? I

Ashley: Yeah, I mean the resistance definitely right and you know, you just really named it is that you know, I think or I know that the systems that we’ve had in place, they’re, they’re being outdated.

They are falling. And [00:28:00] the ways that we know that is because, you know, the increase in mental health, the, the increase and like even school shootings, the increase and dissatisfaction of teachers, and Also, just kind of like the increase in lack of funding to then support the things or, you know, and I think that there’s so many things that, you know, the more that, you know, I know that I practice being present and the more that the people that are knee deep embedded in this work.

I do think that. When you have more mindful individuals that are paying attention, we can see all of the things, the things that are really going well and the things that are not. And so I think that’s where the resistant comes is that right now, you know, I’ve found my resistance. And in spaces in which, you know, the systems are not working right.

You know, there’s a lot of angst and within the spaces or the environment and that can be school systems that can be the government agencies that we might work with, or the ones that, you know, might have provided the [00:29:00] funding for for certain initiatives. And, you know, there’s. When we are able to highlight and or be able to name that something’s not working and state that, you know, resistance is going to come because that makes people uncomfortable.

And I think that’s kind of really where we’re landing right now. And so there’s a lot that many of us are really ready for. And then also there’s a lot that our hearts just want to feel and do better. Because we are we are experiencing So much disconnection that’s been amplifying all of these things.

And so at some point. it’s like, when do we actually call change? And so for me, the resistance has really come when I have had the capacity to say, like, Hey, this actually isn’t working right. Our kids grades aren’t getting better. We’re seeing an increase in fights, like and this is in the school system, but then even when we think about working with leadership, like the [00:30:00] teachers aren’t happy, right?

The teachers are, their wellbeing’s not at the forefront right now, or, you know, or our parents are. You know, complaining about this or our parents actually don’t have the capacity to support the youth in this way. And, you know, and then to come in and to say, Hey, do you, can we practice this? Like, is there a way that we can come in and have some communication?

Because healthy communication requires presence and it requires honesty and openness. And In those moments, you know, you there’s a lot that can be that can be brought up. And and so the resistance that I’ve really, I think, face is being able to clearly communicate what is present.

Right. And then offering up a solution. Right. That is different than the way that, you know, it might have happened before, you know, it might not be a program. It might be really relationship centered. And this is how we’re going to center relationship. And, you know, that requires work and skill [00:31:00] and practice.

And, and at the end of the day, it requires time. You know, and, and so finding time within a school schedule, finding time within a work schedule that one is familiar with to even come and be in practice outside of an institution is, I think, a challenge. And, you know, also one’s own self one owns self awareness.

Right. And can be a huge challenge, whether it’s, you know, when I’m working in within a school environment and a student is being introduced to something, but doesn’t actually know what they need. And then you offer them a practice and they’re like, why am I doing this? Right. And, you know, over time they’re like, Oh my gosh, like, this is what I needed.

And you hear the same thing with an adult, right? It’s like, you know, I just want more calm. I want more ease. I want more like compassion for myself. I want to be in better relationship. And, you know, It might take 10 times to show up [00:32:00] to be in a practice that has the opportunity to lead into that because it’s different, you know, and so there’s a lot of different reasons why resistance.

can show up both institutionally, culturally, personally, and individually. And so one of my main intentions is to continue to trust the process and to continue to be present way. If, you know, my own experience and then also being curious and open and also responsible for creating space where another person might be ignited to get curious and present about their own experience.

Gissele: Mm. Yeah. And I think this is how we change the world. It’s being standing within our own emotions, being mindful, being an allowance, getting curious because when we can hold space for our own difficult feelings, then we can be open. I can be open and [00:33:00] curious about you. I can be open and receptive to things as you hold space for your difficult feelings.

And then we can engage in that difficult dialogue where people say things that are, you know, Triggering or hurtful or whatever, and then we can still hold space for conversation versus what we do now as a society, which is cancel one another and shut down conversation. Because, like, you said, we’re not in awareness of how we’re feeling.

We’re not in awareness of what we need in that moment. And so I do believe that changing a culture is each 1 of us doing that work that work that you are helping people understand to do, which is, I think, what is important. Hopefully going to lead to the change. I wanted to circle back to what you had said, offering different, perspectives or different options in terms of what we have done before you’d mentioned how you had mindfulness in in youth justice, or is that did I hear that correctly?

Or can you talk a little bit about that? Because [00:34:00] historically with these sorts of systems, they’re based on

 on isolation and separation. They’re based on punishment.

We want to punish. And so to come to these systems and say, why don’t we do something a little differently? Why don’t we include yoga or mindfulness or compassion based training? I think it would lead to that resistance. What sort of reception did you find when you were incorporating such practices within the youth justice system and what perhaps were some of the outcomes?

Ashley: Yeah. So it’s like, so I’ll, I’ll start with the resistance that might, that came from kind of, you know, adults, like my counterparts, right. You know, I think I laugh and I can laugh and I can say this with with grace and openness is that, you know, I was the happy one, right? Like I was air quotes, the happy one or the calm one.

Or the sunshine, right. But I was also working within an environment of individuals that had long hours that were working in an environment in which there were many individuals that had varying experiences of trauma, [00:35:00] right. And, and burnout and compassion fatigue, and people had big hearts.

And that’s why they showed up in these environments because they cared about other people. And. There’s also fatigue and there’s exhaustion. And so I think that that’s something that’s important to name of why I completely and fully understand why resistance was there. Because if you are whether you were a guard or I call them behavioral like specialists now and you worked on varying units and you not just witnessed, but we’re in relationship and in conversation with.

You know, use that, you know, basically have your rights taken away, regardless of what experience or what had led them there. You know, that’s a, that’s a limitation, right? That’s a sensation of, of grief of loss that you’re surrounded by. So I want to first and foremost name that I think the environments breed a culture, right?

Simply [00:36:00] by what is present in the human experience and those moments

of one

that is that, that, that is heavy. Right. And I and sensational and, and, and 1 must be aware of that. And so 1 of the main resistance was, you know, just it’s not going to work. Right? Like. a little bit of sunshine and what might seem like a dark place is just not gonna work.

And so, like, you’re wasting your time, like, you know, or even the judgment of of the youth that were incarcerated’s, like, experience of being there. Right. And so not finding that value that, you know, they even deserve to have improved focus or balance or ease or a calmed nervous system. So I think that was the thing you really have to see the human experience and kind of move beyond the The the judgment of the experience that might be different from yours.

So I think that’s something that’s important to name. So [00:37:00] that whole perception of it’s not going to work. You know, they don’t deserve this. Or then so we don’t have enough time or they’re not going to be interested was a very heavy one. And so how I got beyond that was that I kept showing up.

And, you know, of course, as young adults or teens would do anyways, you have to build relationship with them. I couldn’t come in and then teach them something completely different. I had to educate. I had to, Be in participation. I had to model being in clear communication and modeled an easeful nervous system and a tone of voice that was welcoming.

I had to create a space of belonging and safety and support. I like using all of the tenants of trauma responsive practices. Right. Of empowering voice and choice and being open to, to communication and, and understanding all of the identities and creating a space of belonging for all the identities that showed up, like you have, like, those are key.

And so that’s one way that I did that. But then when it came to also just, you [00:38:00] know, even the departments. And at hand are the departments that kind of really supervised the programs really needing to advocate for funding. So I think, you know, a lot of the roles in which when specifically when I worked with that.

And I worked within juvenile correctional centers, you know, funding, there’s a lot of volunteer based work, which I think is helpful. And, you know, I still say to this day that I would still be there. You know, if COVID had not occurred when it did, and, you know, kind of shifted some of my availability, I would still probably be there every week offering it in that way.

And then also just thinking about the sustainability of what it looks like to, to do that. And so I think funding is one way that. You know a lot of the organizations or that the department really named that they might not have had the funding to support it. Right. Or, you know, we, we don’t see the benefits of it.

Right. Or, you know, or the benefits that are right now, because a lot of times the way that we, that we measure impact is, you [00:39:00] know. Job security or I, well, which is right, but we, we measure these like very tangible things like capacity to have a job or they got released and, you know, they stayed out this amount of time or even with us, right.

You know, it’s that you were judged up about our capacity to be an attendant at something, right? Like, there’s markers, but a thing that it’s usually measured on something that is produced. Not necessarily something that which is then witnessed or built from a characteristic standpoint. And so I think it’s just hard to put money behind or to advocate.

It’s not hard to advocate, but it’s hard to see if you’re not a part of or in practice of it or in study of it to really acknowledge the impact that it has.

Gissele: Yeah, and the whole issue of, like, trying to quantify, you know, how do you quantify impact? It has to be something observable, which is why often governments will find based on outputs, not [00:40:00] outcomes.

At least that has been my experience. It’s like how many people attended or, you know, like, what, what can I, what’s the low hanging fruit and what’s something that I could easily quantify rather than what is a real long term impact on this individual’s lives and sometimes it’s not as easily observable.

And I think, you know, when you were talking about deservability earlier in our conversation, you were talking about, we don’t think that people deserve but, you know, as you were talking, I was reminded, I had a conversation with a friend of mine and she was mentioning how, you know, when people are in corrections, right, you’re asking them, like, you put them in that environment.

Right. You put them with other people that have the same level of consciousness, energy, awareness, thoughts, and then you’re asking them to do this Herculean thing about asking them to become better people, but they’re in that same environment with those same people and treated harshly. And so. How is it that you expect them then to become loving, compassionate, like [00:41:00] law abiding citizens.

So what you’re inviting them to do is to do something different to help them regulate their bodies to understand themselves so that they can understand their behavior. And that’s really what gets us to change. but again, there’s always that fear of like, they were hurtful people and therefore we’re not punishing them and therefore they’re going to be hurtful.

But it’s in fact, I found it’s the other way. It’s initiative like yours that enable people to really get in touch with that humanity, get to know themselves and and. Get to focus on their own deservedness. So, yeah, so I think that’s, I think people underestimate the power of that, but sometimes our need to punish is so high.

Ashley: But it comes from a place of fear, right? Like if we punish them, then maybe they won’t do it again, but looking at the recidivism literature,That doesn’t work. It just doesn’t work. So like you said, if it doesn’t work, then we need to do something different. If you want a different outcome, as Einstein said, the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and then expecting something to [00:42:00] change.

And I think that’s where we are, are right now, you know, like just, you know, as mentioning that our systems are not working. And if we think about also like the punitive systems that we have, or, you know, they’re really built, you know from places of oppression. Right. I mean, so specifically in America, right.

If we just look at, you know. About like how our, how our country was founded and, you know, who is valued, who wasn’t, when did punishment come and, you know, and who received it. And so I think that’s something that’s really key to acknowledge as we, you know, observe and witness many of the systems that were, that were created here, but then also brought from other countries and or established in other countries.

So I don’t think. You know, as much as I want to really focus on America, and many times if you’re in conversation with me, I focus on the conversation of the foundation of Richmond, like in, in Richmond’s high to not just the American history, but then [00:43:00] also the history. Three of our country and its involvement with the transatlantic slave trade and you know, they’re so we can really really look at a micro level or a macro level wherever our proximity is to see kind of like how we have chosen to move away from valuing and under valuing and understanding.

Our humanity as a whole, but then also how we value and understand individual identity and the connection to humanity. And so I think we’re really struggling with that as a people. And so these practices. That are very ancient indigenous to us. Right. So being present, being present with ourselves as a clear direction to being in relationship.

Right. And so, you know, as we think about how these systems were built, it was to keep people out of relationships with themselves. It’s to, uphold power and privilege in a way that, you know, You know, I think what right now we’re seeing the, the fall of that because we’re so far away from [00:44:00] our humanity and the way that we’re actually meant to live as humans.

And so that would need to change and that’s really what that keeps me in my own practice, but then also keeps me advocating for. Creating space for all individuals in our collective to be a part of because I think the more that we find ourselves and the earlier that we start, then the better our world is going to be well.

Gissele: Yeah, absolutely. And I think that’s one of the things that when we talk about, when we try to have those conversations about colonization, we try to have conversations about, look at what we’ve done as a humanity. And I say everyone, because we’ve all contributed through acts of omission or commission, right?

Like, and if we’re experiencing it, we’ve contributed to it. And so being able to hold space for those difficult conversations without Ejecting out so managing our own shame in our own guilt with love and compassion with, with understanding and curiosity and non [00:45:00] judgment will help us then understand, okay, this is who we’ve been.

Now, is this what we want to continue to be? if not this, then what? How can we then change ourselves to change humanity, to be more loving, to be more compassionate, to be more but that takes, like you said, awareness, awareness of who we’ve been. And I think, especially in Canada, there’s still, like, a huge amount of work that needs to be done about acknowledgement.

There’s been that acknowledgement of what was done to Indigenous people. But not a real, a real understanding, not a real acknowledgement of like, this is who we were, and this is what we did, and this is how we’re going to move forward to not do that or be that anymore. And this is the sort of reparations and acknowledgement and things that we need to do for our indigenous brothers and sisters in order to move towards being that.

And I think there’s still sort of like, yeah, yeah, it happened, but can we move on already? [00:46:00] No, we can’t move on because we haven’t changed. We have not changed. So until we are different, until we are more loving and compassionate and inclusive and don’t need to oppress our brother to lift ourselves up, we can’t stop looking at it.

Right. I wanted to talk just a little bit about, you mentioned creating spaces for black individuals around making it accessible to the black community yoga. Can you talk a little bit about that?

Ashley: Yeah. So as I mentioned, like I came to, you know, my yoga practice and journey in 2012, 2013, really at a time of my life of transition. And so when I was seeking you know, health, right, I was seeking myself, I was seeking ways to take care of myself. You know, I was accessing and when I found like the practice to really compliment my faith practice, right?

So by trade I am christian and you know over the past [00:47:00] 12 years, you know, like really landing in that spirituality space but At that moment, when I first began, I looked around me. And when I was really trying to dive deep into the yoga practice, I didn’t see many people that looked like me, right. I would go to the gyms and I would be always only the, I would be like one, if not one of two people of color or black women and also black women.

Right. So I think that’s a thing too, such as both gender and as well as racial identity. And the more that I practice and the more that I felt better, I was like, Oh my gosh, like, I want to Ensure that people that look like me also know about this practice, because, you know, between my mom and my dad and, you know, my uncles and my uncles and my, my uncles and my aunts and my cousins and my friends, you know, we were, there was stress that was present and varying way the stress does.

And I was like, this could be an answer or at least a method in which, you know, we learn more about and a philosophy that we learn about. And so. That, to me, was my [00:48:00] first that was really my first desire is to really want to increase representation of that, that, you know, people of color are welcome to use this.

Like, it’s an ancient indigenous practice, right? Like, and I think our society and our media has done a really good way of defining and making You know, such an ancient indigenous practice, one that, you know, comes from a lot of different places with a lot of different cultural backgrounds and relevancies and philosophies that You know, I think in America, we really, we kind of shifted what that looked like specifically during that time.

I think we’ve done better. So increasing representation was key for me. Increasing opportunity to education, but then also decreasing health disparity through this practice was something That was really important to me. And so really wanting to dive deep into that. I think one thing that we learned though, and so I’m 12 years post really engaging in this [00:49:00] practice and sharing it is that when you create a space of belonging and inclusivity and welcoming a representation for really what is historically marginalized community or underrepresented, you actually create space for so many diverse identities because It comes back to that human experience, right?

It’s like when you can see, you didn’t really see everything. And so the people and our students that were attracted to either practice with myself Or within the space and that was recreated, you know, then also could take that out and then create a more belonging space for the identities that showed up and then bring in even their identity.

And so we are a very diverse community now. And so one thing is, my journey began with, the physical. Practices pranayama and breathing and asana and movement and stuff. And today I really am an advocate for the embodiment of the philosophies that the yoga practice teaches, but a lot of that, a lot of [00:50:00] like Yoruba practices and other cultural ancient indigenous practices offer because.

You know, it, they emphasize restoration. They emphasize creativity. They emphasize freedom and liberation. They emphasize clarity and connection. They emphasize of interconnection, of self study, of presence Right now, for me, it’s really creating spaces for people to embody many of the things that we might learn to enhance our self awareness, to enhance our relationship with community, and to enhance our action, our collective action to create a better world.

And so that’s what’s really landed me at the evolution of Bare Soul, which is the well collective. And really being a movement to kind of really understand that our wellbeing is foundational and we really need to call in presence and practice and community to get back to, to our humanity and in very healing ways.

Gissele: Hmm. Oh, beautifully said. [00:51:00] Perfect. Perfect segue. Two more questions. The first one is what is your definition of unconditional love?

Ashley: Hmm. It goes back to what I named the maintain constant loveOur human experience is.

Is founded in love. Like our foundation is love. And, you know, if we can truly understand that love is an action, love comes through our speech, love comes through the way that we look or that we are it’s really an invitation to maintain constant love beyond what experience or environment or yeah, experience or environment that’s in front of us.

And so, you know. Sometimes we say, like, it’s beyond condition, but even that sometimes can be a biased statement. So for me, it’s like, it’s going back to just maintaining constant love through action. And then through presence,

Gissele: I love that choosing love basically, you know, like constantly choosing, [00:52:00] just choose.

Oh, I love it. So tell us a little bit about your website. Where can people find you? Where can people work with you or can they find out more about you?

Ashley: Yeah. So I invite you to, to be in relationship with me. You can find me at www.iamashleywilliams. com that will lead you to all of the what’s that are centered on my wise of community and connection of love and of liberation.

And so I’m all things, the well collective everywhere on Instagram, on Facebook And also on the website, thewellcollective.Space you can find me in Richmond, Virginia. So whenever you are here, please come and say hello. I am creating this very beautiful and much needed center for healing and humanity through restorative practice.

And when I say the well collective, anyone that believes that we all deserve to be well is invited to show up and care for themselves and then also [00:53:00] care for their neighbors.

Gissele: Ooh. Love it. Love it. Check out the well center and check out Ashley’s website. Thank you Ashley so much for being on the podcast and for reminding me about just love for myself.

And thank you everyone for joining us for another episode of the love and compassion podcast with Giselle. Yeah. See you soon. Bye.

Transcript

Gissele Taraba: [00:00:00] So hello and welcome to the Love and Compassion podcast with Gissele.

We believe that love and compassion have the power to heal our lives in our world. Don’t forget to like, and subscribe for more amazing content. Today, we’ll be chatting about the importance of mindfulness in the school system. My guest today is Ben Painter, co founder and partner at Whole School Mindfulness, which is at the forefront of integrating mindfulness into education to promote wellbeing, community, and justice.

Celebrated by mindful. org as the rising voice in the field, Ben is an accomplished facilitator with over 80 days in dedicated mindfulness meditation retreats, notably at Drupadrong Monastery in Northern Nepal. Ben excels in creating engaging and safe environments that inspire growth and learning, and he is recognized for his ability to connect deeply with individuals.

His [00:01:00] workshops are designed to enhance self awareness, emotional intelligence, and resiliency, equipping attendees with the skills to incorporate mindfulness into their lives and positively impact their communities. Please join me in welcoming Ben to the show. Hi, Ben.

Ben Painter: Hey, how you doing? I’m

Gissele Taraba: good. How are you?

Thank you so much for being on the show. I’m so excited to have this chat. I was wondering if you could start by telling the audience how you got into this work. How does, how did this sort of come about?

Ben Painter: Yeah, let’s see. It goes back to when I was a kid, actually. I had a couple of close family members who kind of went through it with fairly severe mental health challenges and mindfulness and meditation of different types was a part of their healing journey.

It wasn’t, you know, the silver bullet that made them all better, but it was a core part of it. And so I think it was kind of in my subconscious that these things could be helpful. And [00:02:00] then I went to High school in Concord, Massachusetts called Middlesex, and they had a really amazing, innovative way of introducing mindfulness to their students where there was somebody whose job it was to do that.

His title was the mindfulness director. His name is Doug Worthen. And he’s still the mindfulness director there full time. And I really just. liked him as a person and as a mentor. And so at first it was, it was kind of just like, Oh yeah, I’d heard about this mindfulness thing, knew it could be helpful.

This guy, Doug seems really awesome. I want to do whatever he’s doing. So I started to get into mindfulness then and took all the classes with him. I could, and then started going on retreats as a fairly young person. And just fell in love with the practice, what it can do to your mind. And also the communities built around the practice and yeah, it’s been a core part of my life ever since.

And the story of [00:03:00] how I got into this work with whole school mindfulness. And what we do is essentially we’re trying to launch other mindfulness teaching positions in schools across the U S. Was the model that was pioneered at Middlesex was successfully scaled once a few different puzzle pieces came together.

There was a funder that helped kind of grease the wheels of bureaucracy at the school to get it going. There was a school who’s willing and interested in integrating mindfulness. And then there was a person who was a right fit for that community had a deep practice and the puzzle pieces kind of came together.

And. The program in a school in Texas was launched and I was just graduating college. I had a first job working at this amazing organization called New Profit. And yeah, long story short, we decided to start an organization to, to try to scale this thing.

Gissele Taraba: Wow, that is so, so amazing. [00:04:00] I want to start by focusing on the part that you said that you had taken it as a student.

What was the impact for you when you, when you are a student going through that program?

Ben Painter: Yeah, it was a very deep impact for me. I think for one, it was a. It was just a cool signal from my school that, hey, this is part of what it means to be educated here. It’s, it’s, it’s just a part of what this school wants me to know.

Is these tools to help investigate your mind and relate to your own experience, process emotions, kind of get in touch with your needs so you can more effectively communicate it. So it was, it was a cool reorientation of what I thought was part of kind of a core educational experience. So that was on one hand on another hand, you know, high school I faced the normal stressors of high school experience.

I was an athlete. I, you know, wanted to get into a good college and the academics were really tough [00:05:00] at my school. So just having tools to work through all that. Was just really helpful for me. And then, I would also say it really started to impact my relationships. For one, my best friend and I both were really into it.

So it was kind of a medium of connection for us. And then I really think it did help me. Yeah, just, you know, I think, I think in order to be In relationship, well, friendship or romantic, you need to be in touch with your own experience. And so it helped me there.

Gissele Taraba: Yeah. when I read this information about like what the goal of your organization is, I thought this was so, so pivotal.

And so that’s why I reached out about having you in the show. I want to talk about the state of schools in the U S is, is it anything like in Canada?

Because it’s not good. It’s not good. Yeah.

Ben Painter: Yeah. Yeah. Definitely, young [00:06:00] people are having a hard time in general.

Gissele Taraba: Yeah like, I don’t know about the experience in the U. S. in particular, but I know in Canada, this has kind of been a long time coming. I do think that this, this rise in frustration with the school system in terms of sometimes the punitive approaches that are used with young people.

And in the way that intelligence is assessed through all these standardized tests and how people that are potentially aberrant don’t really fit into that mold. I think we’re starting to realize that a lot of the systems we created, including the education system. They just don’t, they just don’t work.

And so I love that your program in the schools are focusing on mindfulness, because I don’t think we focus enough on the self. So what, can you share some of the outcomes that some of you guys have seen in implementing mindfulness into the school system?

Ben Painter: Yeah, first I’ll just share, I really resonate with your, you’re just saying, and I think a core kind of reason the, you [00:07:00] know, one of the whys for me and for my team is that we do believe.

An ingredient of systemic change is the change of individual hearts and minds that, you know, the, the people in the system really matter when you’re trying to change the system. And yeah, that’s the hope for us is that, you know, mindfulness works its way into schools to districts, and it’s not only the students that are benefiting, but it’s also the adults.

The faculty staff, the administration, hopefully it changes the culture of the place and potentially the kind of more policy based structure of the place in time. Or, you know, is one of the factors that leads to positive change. That’s the hope. It’s not only about individuals. It’s about the collective and the, and the system.

Yeah. And then in terms of how, what, what the path has been for whole school, [00:08:00] we got going five years ago. And so the timing of that was a bit hectic. We really got going right when COVID was hitting.

Gissele Taraba: Made

Ben Painter: it. So on one hand, COVID totally exacerbated that. And sped up the mental health crisis young people were isolated there on screens even more than they were before not getting a lot of the, their needs met when it comes to social connection and otherwise.

Sorry, a bug. It’s coming.

Gissele Taraba: That’s the beauty of having an outdoor interview, although it’s very beautiful there.

Ben Painter: Yeah, we’ll see. If he keeps on buzzing after me, I’m going to move inside. Okay, I’m moving. So, what happened was there was, we saw increased flexibility and willingness to change. Schools and school leaders who the idea of really launching a [00:09:00] Integrated robust mindfulness program.

That wouldn’t have been an option, but COVID kind of made that an option. There was a collective change to be more willing to adapt to try to meet the needs of students. We saw that happening. But on the other hand, the need increased. And innovating in schools in a time where I’m sorry for your audience.

I don’t know if swearing is okay on this. Yeah, you can

Gissele Taraba: go ahead.

Ben Painter: You know, she was hitting the fan in schools, you know, administrators and teachers were up against so much just like the students. And so getting new programs off the ground in that time and budgets were in flux, you know, every, it was just a time of relative chaos.

So in that made it harder to integrate. But that’s all this, you know, that’s all kind of background context. What we do is we launch cohorts of what we call mindfulness directors. So folks apply to us with their partner schools. So [00:10:00] typically it’s people who are already connected to a school in some way.

So it’s an English teacher. It’s a math teacher. It’s a guidance counselor, a very involved parent who has a mindfulness practice. They’re into it. They know about it. And maybe there already is some momentum happening. Where they are already introducing mindfulness to their students or to their school in some way, and they hear about us and they say, Oh, my gosh, this is my dream job that I didn’t know could exist.

And they apply to us with support from their school administration to become a mindfulness director and we put both the person and the partner school through a fairly robust vetting process. And if they. Kind of past that, then the school we give funding to, because, you know, it’s hard to start a new thing at a school, particularly when there’s a cost associated with it.

So we, we try to act in true partnership and help get, get it going. [00:11:00] And then, and with the mindfulness director, we just try to support them a lot. In getting it going, so we bring all the mindfulness to directors together every other week to form a learning community and in that learning community, we are offering professional development on things that we think mindfulness directors got to know about.

So that’s one thing we do, but I would say the more powerful thing is just getting people together and so they can talk shop so they can support each other. And so that. There can be a mental shift and dedicated time to, Hey, I’m this person who likes mindfulness, want to get some mindfulness momentum going to, Oh my gosh, I’m a mindfulness director.

It’s my role to figure out how to strategically figure out how to deepen this in my school community and make the deepest impact. And so I think that’s something we do really well. And so yeah, since we’ve launched. [00:12:00] We’ve got 18 mindfulness directors out there in the country that we’ve been supporting.

In general, the schools like it. They want more of it. They’re seeing the impact on the well being of their students and the community culture and the mindfulness directors really value being in the cohort as part of the experience. And we’ve had some drop off mostly due to budget cuts. But In general, the programs have sustained and look like they’re on track to be sustaining in the future.

Gissele Taraba: Oh, that’s amazing. Is it only open to people in the States or is it open internationally

Ben Painter: Yeah, right now we’re only working in the United States, but I hope that other organizations pop up doing a similar thing in Canada and and elsewhere. And maybe one day we’ll be in more places.

We’ve. Thought about narrowing our geographic scope, even to a certain region of the United States. Right now we’re across the whole country, but [00:13:00] there’s something to be said about starting small.

Gissele Taraba: Yeah. Cause you like, once you expand out, sometimes you can sort of lose the original quality this is why it’s, as you mentioned, it’s so important to train people in your particular Perspectives in, in the way that you want it to carry out to ensure that the quality is maintained.

Cause I think once it gets bigger, sometimes you kind of lose the vision. Why is it so important to have directors of mindfulness within the school system? Why not just have people just come in and drop and do, which is what I’ve seen. Some schools do is they come in and they have the one off where they drop off like the one person.

And for this one session, why is it so important to have a director within

Ben Painter: Yeah. And there are a lot of ways to get mindfulness into, into schools and each way it has its own set of pros and cons. We have a particular perspective that we think this one’s the best one, but that’s not to knock the other one too much because, you know yeah, there, there are different valid ways.

There are the apps. So [00:14:00] there’s, there’s ones that I would say had the benefit of being like all tech products, very scalable relatively quickly where maybe a recording is played over the loud speaker or a teacher at the beginning of their class can kind of press play and, and settle their class a little bit with a meditation.

There are the curricula based models where with some or no training, you kind of. Get teachers of other subjects to kind of teach a mini mindfulness lesson at the beginning of their class. They’re the train, the trainer models where folks will, teachers will go through a mindfulness training program to deepen their own practice, start or, and, or deepen their own practice and then introduce it to their students.

And then there are the models that you’re mentioning where an outside organization will come in, lead a mindfulness workshop or a series of workshops, and then leave. And I think the benefit of having a dedicated person or the [00:15:00] benefits of having a dedicated person, Include one, they’re a member of the community.

And I think that’s important.

Gissele Taraba: It is. Yeah.

Ben Painter: First of all, they, they, they know, and they might have a better sense of what’s going to work and what’s not going to work. And that’s one of the drawbacks of the curriculum based models is sometimes a curriculum, you know, drawn up in a boardroom in Massachusetts, just doesn’t work in Florida, or it doesn’t work.

In Kentucky or California. It’s just it’s just the cultural references don’t land. It doesn’t meet the folks where they’re at. And a person who has the skills and background can figure out how to custom tailor programming while still kind of holding on to mindfulness teaching best practice, but with some tailoring to their community way that’s going to work.

Second is in related to this idea of them being a member of the [00:16:00] community we’ve been doing as we’ve seen different mindfulness directors go through their work and we’ve seen what’s been more successful and less successful. One of the competencies that we believe a good mindfulness director have is, is really related to leadership and relationship building just as much as it is.

You know, really clearly defining mindfulness and leading a good mindfulness session, it’s about figuring out. As almost an entrepreneur of mindfulness in a fairly complicated system, you know, who should I grab lunch with and try to make them an ally to help build and establish my program? What teachers might be game to have me drop into one of their classes?

What students have social capital? And I might recruit as a mindfulness ambassador to really help grow the culture within the students. So it being a member of the community is essential for those kinds of things. Second is the [00:17:00] more time this person has. the more that they can find opportunities to offer practices to more people.

So we have some mindfulness directors who are full time with a full class load because they’re figuring out, okay, this student has this drop block. At this time, I can offer a class. Then this student has this little in between time after school before sports, I’m going to offer something. Then this group of faculty right after faculty meeting has this block.

I’m going to do this then. And they’re just finding the nooks and crannies where they can get as many mindfulness groups going as possible. And so there’s a real thing to just more time equals more successful mindfulness integration. And then lastly, if it’s somebody’s job and they are really working on developing themselves as a mindfulness teacher, They’re deepening their own practice, they’re attending professional development, kind of learning communities around [00:18:00] deepening their, their journey, and they have their own practice.

That’s really different than putting someone through a mindfulness one on one workshop and then asking them to teach mindfulness. Like we wouldn’t do that with other things. If someone didn’t know how to swim, we wouldn’t throw them in a pool for an hour and a half and then say, okay, now go teach students how to swim.

It’s just, we wouldn’t, we wouldn’t do it. For sure. Yeah,

Gissele Taraba: definitely. Definitely. Yeah. I’ve

Ben Painter: been yapping, so I’ll stop.

Gissele Taraba: No, no, no. This has been perfect. I am in full agreement with what you said. I’ve had personal experiences in trying to implement mindfulness in an organization. This was a child welfare agency because I saw the amount of stress that.

The workers were in and I had had very similar experience to what you were talking about. Number one, having that role emphasizes the priority that the organization sees it as a pivotal role within the system, rather than, oh, here’s a little class on the side that you can take or not take. And I think this is why, I mean, you had mentioned leadership, why [00:19:00] having the leadership on.

On role is so important as well as understanding the culture and how to navigate, you know, like opportunities, like you said, in, in being able to promote that. What has been the feedback from leadership at all these different organizations is it a challenge to engage? Is it easier to engage or has it been sort of a mixed bag?

Ben Painter: With the leadership of the schools?

Gissele Taraba: Yeah, the leadership in the schools. Yeah.

Ben Painter: Yeah. It’s, it’s been a mixed bag. I mean, it, one thing we’ve seen is you know, the systemic inequities that are playing out impact the ability for school leaders to have the headspace to really focus on a new initiative, even if they think it’s great.

So for, for example, You know a wealthier, whiter community in general we’ve seen has more spaciousness than a more low [00:20:00] income,

Gissele Taraba: predominantly

Ben Painter: BIPOC community facing a lot of systemic stuff,

Including gun violence and, and, and, and so getting an hour on the principal’s calendar to talk about the strategy of mindfulness integration sometimes isn’t possible in communities.

Communities that are facing more systemic oppression. So yeah, it’s, it’s been a mixed bag. It’s correlated to other broader systemic themes, I’d say.

Gissele Taraba: Yeah. So thank you for sharing that. That’s very important. Sorry, go ahead.

Ben Painter: But I was just going to say in general you know, school leadership really cares about the wellbeing of their students and you know, they’re facing their own set of challenges that they’re trying to work through in their own set of metrics that they’re trying to improve.

And yeah, the best case scenario is when we find folks who are really aligned and hold those metrics in balance with just, Hey, what What do we want to offer here as a core [00:21:00] educational component? And not just thinking about something like, you know, reducing X or improving Y score. Yeah.

Gissele Taraba: Yeah. Yeah.

And, and so thank you for mentioning that because sometimes schools are so focused on those metrics that they kind of miss the larger picture. As you were talking, I thought it’s so interesting that what are the outcomes that I have seen from the whole mindfulness implementation is that the decrease in that punitive approach of the schools towards the students, improvement in behavior,

 Including improvement in violence. And so, isn’t it’s funny how sometimes that circle, you know, you’re caught in that violence, which means you don’t have a lot of time to implement something that could potentially help with the violence. And so it’s sort of like we’re caught in that

 circle struggle, if you may. And how do we support then those communities so that they can create that space to implement something that could potentially really help them get out of that. And what, where’s our responsibility in that, right?

Ben Painter: I was just going to say that that’s totally a rich topic.

 the [00:22:00] pitfall that I think is Good to have on a mindfulness teachers radar or a school administrators radar is, you know, the motivation for the person teaching mindfulness impacts the way they teach it and impacts the way that it will be received by the students. And one way that I think mindfulness in schools shows up in a less effective way.

Or a weaponized way is when it’s a tool for classroom management. When your reason for introducing mindfulness is not, you know, to give young people these amazing tools to help them understand their minds, but rather it’s to get them to sit down and shut up and focus on the thing, you know, and, and when, when it has that energy,

It’s going to feel like a control mechanism masked in the charade of well being.

Gissele Taraba: Oh, I love that you said that because the energy [00:23:00] behind anything that you do is so important and the students are so perceptive. I’ve had many conversations with students and I have my own children in their ability to perceive.

Intention is so, so amazing. And so they’d be able to see right through that anyways. But I think you were talking about mentioning motivation and that’s, I think, where having your own practice. Is important so that you can be really, really aware of why am I really doing this?

Is this from a place of ego? Is this from a place of love? Is this from a place of openness and sharing? Or is it to be able to, I’m just having a different tool now that I’m trying to use to control behavior. One of the things that I know that I have observed within the Canadian school systems is that the punitive attempt at like the punishing, especially if there are behavior issues.

And I can only imagine that things like in the States, especially, it’s probably a little bit worse there in terms of gun violence and in terms of [00:24:00] like mass shootings and so on. Have you had any experiences in terms of where mindfulness has helped? Individual sort of address some of those more difficult challenges, but from a place of compassion and from a place of love.

Ben Painter: Yeah, we have, one mindfulness director is coming to mind in particular, and she is. She’s truly amazing. Maybe I’ll, I’ll see if you might want to have her as a next guest.

Gissele Taraba: Yeah, that’d be great.

Ben Painter: And she’s working in a community that is experiencing gun violence. And what we’ve seen is that she has really taken on a role in her community as a leader.

People come to for healing and community healing in the context of a lot of hard stuff. And it’s a powerful thing to see and, and to hear about [00:25:00] a community coming together using mindfulness and other healing practices as a, as a vehicle for connection, as a vehicle for building community, as a vehicle for healing in the context of really immense struggle.

Gissele Taraba: Yeah. How did the students react to the mindfulness? is there any resistance in the beginning and then sort of like an embrace or is there just kind of like, let’s go.

Ben Painter: I just spent the day With one of our mindfulness directors, just following him around.

And he has done a cool thing where he he’s actually a mindfulness director at the district level rather than individual school level. So he works across a few different schools and there’s one of only one of him. So he decided to start a mindfulness ambassador program

where

he would work with young people to support them in leading mindfulness for each other.

And for younger students. And [00:26:00] so it was such a cool day. We spent a day walking around and you go from class to class, you’d come in, everyone was so excited, hand shot up in the air saying, I want to lead a mindfulness strategy. I want to lead a mindfulness strategy. And then it was really the young people steering and him acting as kind of like one, somebody who’s creating the space for that to happen and sustaining the culture where that was a cool thing to do.

And students wanted to do and then coaching. The young people on leading and it was just so cool. So I think the mindfulness directors, that’s one strategy. And one thing that we’re seeing is when young people are really into it it really latches hold. And when they are seen as experts and leaders that’s a great way of building momentum.

I want to see, I don’t know if I show a video, will that translate or not really.

Gissele Taraba: Potentially. Yeah. Yeah. Try it out.

It’s so important for young people [00:27:00] to take on those leadership roles and also I find that young people are more likely to do what other young people are saying than some adults.

Like, you know, like, it’s so funny as a mom, before in the beginning, I was like, literally like their whole world. And over time, you just kind of play the back role in their friends. So it’s become really important, their peers, what’s important to them and so on.

And so that’s the perfect venue for them to kind of, for you to embed a system or a process that will live beyond that director will leave beyond that person. Cause like you said, you’re changing a culture, right? So I think that’s pretty cool. I think that’s pretty cool.

Ben Painter: I’ll try to share. Yeah. It’s, it’s letting me share my screen.

I’ll just pull up some quotes from some of our one of our recent visits. This will be 30 seconds.

Gissele Taraba: Sorry, I don’t really know how to like say this. It’s like, it’s weird being happy in my life again. [00:28:00] My favorite part about mindfulness is that the is the freedom that it gives you, you can do like anything you want.

Other: But if we were to do more mindfulness in different schools, We will act more kinder, we will be more peaceful, less stressful, be more productive, and probably spend some more time with family and nature.

Ben Painter: Yeah. So just a couple little quotes,

Gissele Taraba: beautiful, beautiful, and you know, from the mouth of babes. Right. It’s so true. Like being able to tap into that happiness that the young girl was talking about. Because in a way, and I’m going to be totally honest in a way, I feel like school The structure conditions kids out of that joy and happiness, like it, you know, like sit down in a structured classroom, you go through all these classes, you’re not learning necessarily, at least in the public system, you’re not really learning how to focus on your joys and passions.

You have like a specific structured. And so for the students to say, Oh, I can be happy again. I can tap into that joy that was always within me. I think it’s [00:29:00] pretty powerful.

Ben Painter: And another, another thing is just, you know, this, this generation is up against unique conditions that no other generation has been up against before when it comes to COVID, but also when it comes to tech.

Yeah. No other generation has had. Anywhere near this level of sophistication when it comes to companies and phones, really effectively using sophisticated algorithms to try to distract and nab attention and keep young people distracted and on their devices. And so I think there’s also something to be said about now more than ever having it be part of the educational experience to cultivate autonomy over your own attention.

As a way to just resist the forces that are really harming young people, [00:30:00] the data is is clear and becoming more and more clear that social media in particular is just destroying young people’s mental health. And so, you know, we can. We can bank on social media being regulated, but I think also at the same time, there has to be a cultural pushback led by young people.

And our system should be supporting young people in figuring out a more healthy way to relate, to relate to tech.

Gissele Taraba: I’d love that. You just said that is the thing that popped into my mind is, you know, when you look at tech, tech is moving so quickly. Information moves so quickly. I don’t know if you’re on TikTok, but the information that just comes at people constantly all the time and you’re open to millions of people in all of their information and people don’t listen to the news anymore.

 so the subjects that they’re teaching in school. Are pretty outdated considering it takes so long to change a curriculum, you know, it takes months, like as a university prof, like contract. [00:31:00] And for that, for you to do a curriculum, it takes about eight months. Think about AI in eight months. Like, I don’t think so.

It’s like, it’s already outdated. So the fundamental thing that kids will lead to learn is about managing themselves. Managing their minds, managing their hearts, emotional regulation to, like you said, choosing where they put their energy and attention. That’s what school needs to be rather than it be here.

Some subjects that you can Google probably tell you about in like 2 seconds. It could literally search the entire internet and tell you what the answer is. If we don’t need that anymore. So what is school supposed to be? And I think that’s, this is the conversation, which is, is about managing ourselves and managing our minds and hearts.

And I think that’s how we’re going to really create changes in culture. And I think [00:32:00] this is where young people in, in, I do honestly believe that things happen for a reason. I think things are by design, so I think the whole covid situation is as a world. We needed to shake up.

The systems were outdated. It doesn’t work. And so I think, you know, and when you were talking about implementing your initiative, as as difficult as it might have been, you also said that people wouldn’t have been probably as receptive had it not been so urgent. Right and so, but it, it allowed something that is so, so critical and important to be implemented for students that needed it at the time.

Time that needed it the most and now obviously gaining momentum. And so I think that is so, so important, especially the, the, the leadership of young people. What’s your dream? Like, how big do you want to go?

Ben Painter: My, my dream is that mindfulness would be considered an integral part of what it means to be educated at scale.

And

and that, yeah. And that going back to kind of how we [00:33:00] started the conversation, just the notion of school and the systems of school would be. redesigned to really center the needs of young people and the world that they’re inheriting and a rethinking of, Hey, what, what do we think young people should know?

Yeah, yeah. That’s, that’s the dream.

Gissele Taraba: young

Ben Painter: people would, would, would leave school equipped to face these and work through these. Global challenges that are increasingly global, not just local with clarity and compassion and effective communication and

Yeah, that they can keep going, keep advancing, but you know, evolution of human consciousness is the dream.

Gissele Taraba: Yeah. [00:34:00] it’s a wonderful dream. And, and not like a dream dream as in like, Oh, this is a dream. Maybe someday I do think that beyond any other time in human awareness, we are at the precipice of being able to, because things are shifting so much and so fast.

And so. like you said, this is really a time for us to really ask ourselves, what do we want kids to know? Like, what sort of humans are we creating? What kind of human consciousness are we creating? Because everything that we have done up till now, when you think about the school systems, and I don’t know your experiences in the school system.

Mine were varied and I’m I have numerous degrees. And so, I mean, I was the perpetual student, but there was lots of downsides. And I see it now in my kids. And I’m kind of at a point where I’m like, I don’t know what to tell my kids, to be honest, because they don’t have, like, In your beautiful schools, a mindfulness director, that would be amazing.

They don’t, we talk to them about [00:35:00] mindfulness. We talk to them about compassion. We talk to them about loving themselves and therefore being the vehicle to love other people. But sometimes I don’t listen to us cause they’re like, Oh, what do you know? You’re just old. Whereas like. If it’s a, I have a 17 year old and a 14 year old, so they’re like, you know, like you kind of dropped off the coolness chart and you know, now they’re like, oh, because to be honest, it’s a natural evolution for children to want to do things completely opposite to their parents because they need to figure it out for themselves.

So I think it’s wonderful. I think it’s great that my kids are doing that. The only thing we can do is just offer things on the table and say, okay, this is what we believe is what our perception, but in my ideal bubble world, in terms of school system, I want them to be taught by the best. What I mean is I want them to be.

Exposed to the most compassionate, the most loving, the most mindful, the most peaceful, the most [00:36:00] abundant, the most successful. Right. And so for that to be open to any child.

So the, your program is really only to elementary schools or are you planning on expanding beyond the other educational systems?

Ben Painter: No, we have a pre k to university.

Gissele Taraba: Oh, okay. That’s good to know. That’s good to know. Cause I only assumed for some reason that it was elementary. I don’t know why I thought

Ben Painter: that. We have the whole gamut.

Gissele Taraba: Oh, that’s good. So my Americans listeners who partner up with your school, especially if you’ve got mindfulness experience and then go out and apply.

Ben Painter: Yeah. Check us out. And before. Before I forget, just thinking about your kids I don’t know if they’d be into this at all. But when I was their age ish, I went on these, there are the, there’s this organization called Inward Bound Mindfulness. Have you heard of that?

Gissele Taraba: No.

Ben Painter: They basically run meditation retreats for young people.

Meditation retreat slash camp. It’s kind of like [00:37:00] you’re meditating or doing meditation esque things, mindful movement and things like that for about five hours a day, but then you’re also playing. Kickball and oh,

Gissele Taraba: okay. That’s cool. Yeah. .

Ben Painter: Yeah, it’s, and those. Retreats are truly amazing. They haven’t made like some of the, you know, most esteemed teachers out there crawl out of the woodworks because they want to work with young people.

Gissele Taraba: And that’s beautiful.

Ben Painter: Yeah. Just couldn’t recommend it enough. I’ll check it

Gissele Taraba: I would say that my kids would give me the face, right? Especially my son. My son is so into electronics. We were just having a conversation about it this week. Because it’s a form of socialization, right?

All of his friends go on it and they go on it for hours. Like me, we tell them you have to live a balanced life. So you have to go outside, you have to do this. You have to join sportsBut for parents that are busy, for parents that are just trying to make it themselves, like it’s very easy for them to go into that kind of community.

But there is a form of [00:38:00] socialization like these sorts of kids. So how can we potentially incorporate. moments of mindfulness and not make that wrong. Right. Do you know what I’m saying? Like how, how do we enable kids to find the balance so that then as they start to see the difference in how they feel, cause they get an immediate hit from these electronics.

Ben Painter: We all do. I do.

Gissele Taraba: Yeah. And in the beginning, when I started meditating, I was practicing mindfulness. It felt really gritty and terrible, but over time, it’s just one of the most beautiful things you can do is like meditate and be in the present moment. It just feels like, Oh, amazing.

Ben Painter: I was just going to say, but it doesn’t always feel like that right away. That’s, that’s the tricky part.

Gissele Taraba: Yeah.

Ben Painter: On retreats, sometimes I find the first couple days really difficult. It’s like going through withdrawal or something from the attention, having so much juicy stuff to land on and bounce around in.

It’s [00:39:00] like, and just like, okay, I’m going to be a spaciousness. And then you settle in after a few days and then it’s like, oh yeah, I remember, I remember why I do this. But. Yeah. So it makes that’s a challenge in introducing this stuff to young people.

Gissele Taraba: And so thank you for mentioning, because I think that’s very important.

It’s not just for young people, though, because I remember experiencing that myself. I went to this it’s sort of, it was sort of like a silent retreat at a, a monastery. And I was, for some reason, separated from my husband and my friend, like, I was put at a separate. Building, I guess I was supposed to be paired with someone else, but I just ended up being me

So I wasn’t sleeping very well. I don’t know. That brought up a whole bunch of things for me. And so the first 2 days, like you said, I, first of all, I was on no sleep and they would wake us up like at 6 or 5 o’clock in the morning to meditate and listen to the monks chant. And I literally by the 2nd day wanted to throw the book at somebody, but I kind of started to breathe through it.

And then, like you [00:40:00] said, it was. Amazing. I didn’t even want to leave. Then you start to be so present with yourself how did the mindfulness directors help people get over that hump? Like what’s, what’s usually the conversation with young people or maybe even some of the adults about how to, to navigate those difficult moments?

Ben Painter: It’s a cool question. mindfulness directors have varying strategies.

Gissele Taraba: How do you manage it?

Ben Painter: Yeah, I’ll riff on like what I’m, how I would think about that. I think one of the primary ones is to make it optional.

If you’re

mandating that people meditate and it’s like you have to, then that’s just not the best way to introduce it to people.

So some of our mindfulness directors will have a thing where it’s like, Hey, we’re going to be meditating. It’s mandated that you are respectful and don’t interfere with other people. [00:41:00] Love it. But if you don’t want to meditate, no problem. Yeah. I think that’s one there’s not like a force or coercion.

It’s an offering that people can take or not.

Gissele Taraba: I love that.

Ben Painter: Then I think there’s like. Myth busting, you know, there’s so many conceptions and misconceptions of mindfulness floating around out there. One is that you have to be in a very certain posture in a beautiful idyllic place and your mind has to be blank and thoughts are the enemy.

So there’s like a good amount of myth busting and re re myth busting that has to happen again and again. Because one of the most common things you’ll hear is that, Oh, I’m not good at mindfulness. It’s not for me.

Gissele Taraba: I’m not good at meditating. Yeah.

Ben Painter: Yeah. And then there’s like offering a variety of different practices [00:42:00] that can help people establish their relationship with their present moment experience.

And for everyone, it’s not going to be eyes closed, sitting down meditation. It might be like, especially with younger folks, younger students, our mindfulness directors. will take other activities and make them a mindfulness exercise. So we have this one mindfulness director, that’s a hybrid gym teacher and mindfulness director and leading gym games and people are moving, having a fun time.

And then there’s moments of pausing. It’s like, all right, check in. How are you relating to your experience? What energy is flowing through you right now? How does your body feel? Okay, back to the game. And, you know, so getting creative and figuring out what’s going to work for the specific culture. And then I think there’s also ways where tapping into the whatever struggles, the young people are facing and offering mindfulness within the context of [00:43:00] Text of helping address those things.

So if students are facing a lot of test anxiety, you can kind of point mindfulness at that. If students are wanting to improve their athletic performance, that that’s a door to getting curious about your mind and how it works. And that’s a great door that works for a lot of people. So there’s also those, you know, mixing up the doorways.

Gissele Taraba: Yeah, that’s thank you very much. That was great. And as, as you were talking it, it occurred to me how often we don’t teach like young people about themselves. Like we teach about the body as like a 3d here’s your brain. Here’s a, but they don’t really get to know themselves. Like, who are you as a person?

I did an assignment with my young people and I said so think about all your identities. Then from that place, who are you? Then try to strip yourself from your identities. Then who are [00:44:00] you? And it was like, some of those, some of their brains exploded. Some of them were like, I can’t compute. I’m a robot.

I don’t exist. I’m like, okay, cool. Like, there was just some interesting answers, but there’s so little self awareness, like understanding. Who are you as a being? Like, who is this person? How does my body work? Like all of those things. And how does my mind work and how do they work together? And I think that’s the gift that mindfulness brings to it’s becoming aware in that for me, mindfulness just kind of opens the door to compassion and love, which is if you don’t mind what I’d like to talk about next, because it’s present moment awareness on how you’re feeling.

Ben Painter: And so how has mindfulness potentially helped the students become more in touch with their self compassion, self love possibly? That’s a cool question.

 I think the takeaway is that you can [00:45:00] cultivate what you want to cultivate. In your mind,

and,

You know, depending on who you talk to and what tradition mindfulness can have a very, very specific definition or it’s an umbrella term for a large swath of contemplative practices.

But

here in the United States, at least like something like a loving kindness practice or a self compassion practice would fall under the general term of mindfulness.

Gissele Taraba: Yeah. And

Ben Painter: so yeah, doing practices that help one rest in the present moment and then cultivate compassion, love, empathy for herself and others, I think are, are great.

Gissele Taraba: in my experience. The way that mindfulness really helped me cultivate compassion was I wasn’t aware of how much I was suffering. I wasn’t aware of how I was treating myself with my thoughts. I wasn’t aware of what I was creating, [00:46:00] but it wasn’t until I got fully present with myself and accepted full responsibility for what I have, what I continue to create.

Like I’m not responsible for the people that have hurt me, but I was responsible for continuing to hurt myself. But without the present moment awareness, I wouldn’t have been aware of what I was choosing and then could therefore choose something different, potentially. And I think that’s where mindfulness, at least for me has been really instrumental.

And even checking in with my body, as you were saying, checking in with, you know, where am I holding the tension? Where am I, you know, what’s happening for me in this moment and what do I need? In order for me to then be able to listen with an open heart to Ben or to someone else, or to be able to forgive or have a difficult conversation.

And so that’s why from, from my perspective, what you’re doing is so, so instrumental. And I really, really do hope that it expands as big as bold as you are desiring. It

Ben Painter: makes me think of [00:47:00] one metaphor that I really love, which is and hopefully it’ll resonate as a Canadian. Which is like this metaphor.

It’s like a sledding metaphor.

Gissele Taraba: A what? A sledding. Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah.

Ben Painter: Sledding metaphor. Yeah. Yeah. Which is, you know, like when you go sledding and you go in the same track again and again, and each time you go in it, the grooves get a little deeper and it gets more automatic. Like you don’t have to steer the sled anymore.

It just, and you know, our minds kind of work like that.

Gissele Taraba: Yeah.

Ben Painter: Or, you know, every time you look in the mirror, a thought stream comes up about, Oh, I wish I looked a little different or you’re to this or you’re to that. Or every time you see that person, the, these unconscious stories we have about them because of the way they look, dress, talk, act, whatever play out and we don’t even know we’re in the track.

It’s just happening. What mindfulness. And help us do, and this also relates to like, [00:48:00] love, compassion, and proving school cultures. It can give us a bit more of a bird’s eye view so we can see what’s happening. And maybe we’ll make the choice to stay right in the track. Or maybe we’ll make the choice to find a new one, but without the choice, the track will just keep, the trenches will just keep getting deeper and

Gissele Taraba: deeper.

Yeah. And I love that you said that because from my perspective, curiosity is the stepping stone to compassion, like without judgment, just like you say, okay, I can continue to choose to go on the same track or I can make a different choice. And it’s a place of non judgment that I think is really opens us up to that.

I’ve got a couple more questions before we wrap up. The first one is I’m asking all my guests what’s your definition of unconditional love?

Ben Painter: Oh, cool. The word like unconditional, what it brings to mind to me is that you love them regardless of what they do which to me maybe gets to, [00:49:00] you love something

about them that is deeper. Or then even like the more surface level things it’s, it’s like an unchanging love of, who they are underneath all the stuff,

All the changing stuff and all the ways that we might mess up or lose our way.

Gissele Taraba: Thank you for that. I was wondering if you could tell the audience where they can find you, where they could potentially apply, like, you know, what are you working on?

What do you want to share with the audience?

Ben Painter: I would say, yeah, we can check us out at wholeschoolmindfulness. org. And we also have not super active social media, but they exist on all the, you know, normal ones and yeah, a few different ways of entry for partnering with us. If you’re a person in a school who [00:50:00] this sounds like your dream job, check us out and navigate to the, become a mindfulness director tab and fill out the form.

So you get that email blast when the applications open up, if you’re a school leader or a district leader, and you’re hearing. This, and you think that this might be a strategy that you want to try out also on our website or reach out to us on the contact page for partnership. And then lastly, if you’re hearing this and it sounds like something that you might want to support philanthropically we are largely dependent on philanthropy to, to make this work happen, which I think is normal.

Like private philanthropy oftentimes catalyzes. Change that then is taken over by public funds, but philanthropy is the tip of the spear for getting this stuff going. So, if you want to partner with us, we’re always happy to, yeah, make good use of [00:51:00] funds.

Gissele Taraba: Yeah, for sure. And are you available to support anyone who you know, anyone in Canada who might be interested or maybe internationally who might want to reach out and say, hey, how do we do this?

Can we partner with you guys? So that we can find out and make this more of a global initiative.

Ben Painter: Yeah, right now, we would have to go through some legal hurdles and in order to be a 501c3 working internationally. It’s just a different thing. We haven’t done that yet, but always game to hop on a call. To partner.

Yeah.

Gissele Taraba: You heard it. You can at least get a phone call. Yeah. Thank you so, so much, Ben, for all the amazing work that you’re doing. And for taking the time out to chat with us about this very, very important conversation about the need for mindfulness in the school, especially the role of a mindfulness director.

And please join us again for another episode of the loving compassion podcast with Giselle. See you [00:52:00] soon.

Ben Painter: Yeah. Thanks, Gissele. That was such a cool conversation.

Gissele Taraba: Oh, thank you so much.

TRANSCRIPT

Gissele overdub: [00:00:00]

Hello and welcome to the Love and Compassion podcast with Giselle. We believe that love and compassion have the power to heal our lives and our world. Don’t forget to like and subscribe for more amazing content. On today’s podcast, we’ll be talking about forgiving one’s enemy.

CARSA, Christian Action for Reconciliation and Social Assistance Organization, is doing some incredible work. They’re bringing together victims and oppressors for conversation. Carsa Ministries serves communities in supporting their journey towards healing, forgiveness, reconciliation, and sustainable holistic development.

Please join me in welcoming Carsa Ministries Executive Director, Christophe Mbonyingabo did I say it right?

Christophe: It

Gissele overdub: was. Welcome, Christophe. Welcome to the show. Thank you.

Christophe: Thank you very much. I’m glad to be with you today.

Gissele overdub: Yes, I am so excited to speak with you [00:01:00] because I believe that the work that you’re doing is so, so important.

Right now the world, It just seems so divided whether it be a, a long political divisions or among like this, even people, people canceling one another. So I think right now organizations that are working to bring people together, I think matter so greatly. Can you tell us a little bit about how this organization got started?

Christophe: Thank you very much. CARSA itself is a Rwandan based organization that started just 10 years after the genocide against the Tutsi means 2000 and close to 2004. That’s when we got registered by the government of Rwanda and CARSA started as a local grassroots initiative to try to restore the brokenness.

That has resulted from the genocide but alsopeople have to remember that the genocide did not start [00:02:00] in 1994 and the genocide did not end in 1994 because prior to 1994, there had been a long. era of division, you know, hatred and ideology that’s led to the 1994 genocide,

It was so huge consequences as a result of the genocide that’s needed to be addressed from various aspects. To try to contribute to see if forgiveness, reconciliation, restoration was possible. So that’s how CARSA gets started. And since then, about 20 years now, we’ve been, you know, trying to do that mission, which is very difficult, but exciting.

Gissele overdub: What you said is so critical because it didn’t start straight into genocide. It started with division and separation and the division between these two groups and seeing each other as enemies and not as brothers and sisters. And then that contributed too. So I think this is an important lesson for people to understand that it’s not [00:03:00] just about minor conflict.

It’s about this othering that results in then greater separation and greater conflict. And then you kind of have this division and genocide between these groups, right?

Christophe: Sure. You know, you know sometimes when people learn about the genocide that took place in Rwanda and they learned how within a hundred days, a million people were killed and killed by their neighbors, their friends, the people they knew.

If you do numbers, it was not what was happening, but if you tried to do numbers, it’s as if every second. Yeah. Six people were being killed. So people don’t have their mind around us. It’s very difficult to even understand how that can be possible. And remember it was a brutal killings because it was done using traditional weapons.

So people ask questions, how can this happen? Explain, but they tend to [00:04:00] forget that’s actually what happened as the killing of the genocide was a result of decades of brainwashing, hatred, division, and all of that. That’s why when you go through and try to understand the 10 stages of the genocide, then you understand better.

It doesn’t come just one day, one year. It’s, it’s a long journey. And, and that, that’s, that’s the same issue happening today in different parts of the world.

Gissele overdub: Yeah. And this is why it’s so important to learn from Rwanda and to learn from the work that you’re doing so that people understand that it’s not just about this division.

It’s not just about like this, like what they consider minor conflict is that it starts to separate us from each other. And then we see each other as enemies. And like you said, people turn like neighbors, friends. So the work that you’re doing is, is. Bringing together individuals, especially like what they call victim and what they call perpetrators together.

And, and that’s incredible to be able to [00:05:00] do that, especially after the genocide. What steps do you take individuals towards this sort of extraordinary journey?

Christophe: Yes you know, generally, when we talk about forgiveness, it is a very difficult concept to apply. And that’s generally you think of when, you know, I always give this example for married couples.

When wife and husband are well together, they love each other, called each other beautiful names, you know, but when there is something happening between them, then you understand how forgiving it’s very difficult to apply. Why? First of all, because it doesn’t come easily from the human nature. When we have experienced any sort of harm, abuse, whatever we tend, our, the first tendency is to wish to revenge ourselves.

But also you think from the, you know, [00:06:00] offender, the quick answer is to deny is to justify. And so now we are talking not just a minor issue. We are talking about the context where genocide survivors had lost their family members. And their children, spouses, siblings, parents, and now these people have been killed, not by strangers, but by neighbors, by friend, by in laws, by people they hoped that they would support them.

It means there’s not only the killings that has took place, but also there’s a sort of like it’s sort of like. Feeling that you’ve been disappointed in a sense, but also betrayed because these were the friends , you hope they’ve gone to support. So now when we talk about post genocide forgiveness, people need first to understand that concept and background.

So the steps that we [00:07:00] take people through at CARSA. We always start with a conversation, which is structured into what we call trauma healing workshop, and we start by explaining the participant genocide survivors for them to understand the need to move towards their individual their personal their inner healing, first of all, so we don’t quickly talk about forgiveness.

Also, then we get to the level where we start talking about forgiveness as one of the steps to what complete individual healing. And so when we talk about forgiveness, first of all, we, we make the participant, the survivors to understand what is forgiveness and what forgiveness is not.

Gissele overdub: Can you share what, what, what it is not ? Yes. What is, what is forgiveness? Not

Christophe: forgiveness is not forgetting. That’s first of all, [00:08:00] forgiveness. Does it not necessarily means reconciliation? Because when you talk about forgiveness, people say, do you want me to meet the other person? Do you want me to talk to the other person?

No. But thirdly, forgiveness doesn’t mean necessarily you ignore justice if it needs to happen. So when they understand those, those three definition of what forgiveness is not, it’s not forgetting. It doesn’t take away justice, but also it’s not necessarily reconciliation. Then people can listen. The second step it’s when we start explaining to them the benefit of forgiveness towards themselves.

Forgiveness benefits the victim before it benefits the offender or the perpetrator. And the third step is when we explain the burden of unforgiveness, you know, forgiveness is a very difficult concept. As I said earlier, [00:09:00] it’s very costly to forgive, but unforgiveness cost more at the end.

So when these people have understood the benefit, when they have understood the cost of unforgiveness to themselves, it’s like, you know, unforgiveness, it’s like you are locked in the room and you’ve got the key to make yourself get out. No one can do that. And then you choose to lock yourself in the room, thinking that’s the one who have locked you in the room is going to suffer.

Gissele overdub: That’s true. Yeah. I can ask a question. How do you know if you’ve truly forgiven? there may be times when you think, oh, I’ve forgiven, but then maybe something comes up. I don’t know if you can answer that, but just curious.

Christophe: You know, we have a program where we take genocide survivors and genocide perpetrators who are on the journey of reconciliation to speak to young people in schools.

And [00:10:00] then, in one conference, we call them peace conferences, a young student asked to a genocide victim who had shared the story, how he had forgiven the perpetrator, had killed the mother, they were all together and asked, ask it. What will happen to you today if this man, the perpetrator, whom you say were forgiven after killing your mother, if he does something today to you, what are you going to do again?

He said, the answer was, I have forgiven him the difficult crime. Why can’t I forgive him, you know, from the minor crime or whatever you do to me today. So, when, how do you know that you are forgiven? First of all, it’s when you remember with less bitterness. Then you know you are on the journey of forgiveness.

Secondly, it’s when you remember, but you don’t wish bad to the offender. [00:11:00] You don’t wish to revenge. You don’t wish to see the same thing happening to you to have to happen to the, to the, to the offender. Then you know, you’re in the journey of forgiveness. It’s, it’s when, when you remember your experience or your experiences, but you are able to share that As an experience, but with, with less body, with less, you know, width emotionally and psychologically, then, you know, you’re in the journey of forgiveness, but finally it’s when you think about the offender, the perpetrator, and it doesn’t come with the mess and the combination of the crime.

It’s when anyone, in other words, it’s when you are able to separate the crime and the perpetrator.

Gissele overdub: Oof. That is so, so powerful. Yeah. I think, yeah. [00:12:00] I really resonate with what you said. Yeah. Your organization, you mentioned the peacekeeping piece has four major pillars. It has trauma and recovery and reconciliation, peace building, economic development, And Youth Leadership, when you take it all together, that’s really well thought out because it’s not just about reconciliation.

You’re really thinking about why oppression happens. Like why do genocides happen? Why do people, why are they more apt to hurt each other? Why are each of those pillars important?

Christophe: Yeah, thank you. You’ve, you’ve well described that it’s the four pillars are very interconnected, because again, we have to put them in the context of the Genocide in Rwanda, , the one that and look at them as, as a very holistic journey.

So each, each of the four pillars. You know, it’s a step [00:13:00] or it’s a pillar that’s, that’s really without it, the journey we’re not, would be incomplete. The trauma recovery and reconciliation focuses more on the past, where we want to deal with the past. means we’re inviting genocide survivors, genocide perpetrators to actually sit at the table and think about their past and how that past have harmed them and affected them, but also how they can now deal with it and, and move into the future.

Then moving towards peace building. We think of the young generation, 20, 30 years after the genocide, we have the whole generation of people actually now, statistically, 65 percent of the whole population of Rwanda are people under the age of 30 years old.

Gissele overdub: Basically, this whole generation

Christophe: of people did not witness the genocide, could not explain the genocide, but the second generation.[00:14:00]

They learn about the history, either from, you know, government, from schools, but also from their parents. They have different narratives. But secondly, if, as a country, we have made a step toward peace and reconciliation, how do we ensure that that process will be sustainable? It’s when we invite the young people at the table.

For instance, under the Peace Building, we have a program we call Peace Conversation Cycles. It’s a project. And this one It’s when we invite adults, means genocide survivors and perpetrators, young people, and those that we call the rescuers. Rescuers are people whom during the genocide were courageous enough to to hide the Tuts who were being hunted and be killed, even though they were coming from the so called the Hutu by then, and they were courageous to hide them.

So they are recognized by the government, they are recognized in the communities, we call them the rescuers. So [00:15:00] those three categories, we bring them in the table, in the room from the same community, and they start talking. And here, young people now are learning the history, not as, as a countrywide, but From their community.

They ask questions. How was your relationship before the genocide? What happened during the genocide? And how are you resolving or restoring relations after the genocide? How do we dream together for the future, a shared future? Why? Because we want to make sure that this young generation grasps the importance of reconciliation, peace building, but also so that they understand their role to play to sustain the peace that we are enjoying today as a nation.

very much. Then we go to the economic development, economic empowerment. Rwanda as a nation, after the genocide, the government has been taking, you know, the population into what we call the socio economic transformation. [00:16:00] But also remember, poverty has played an important role during the genocide. Some years back, we did a study, was very quantitative study.

We wanted to understand What actually made the normal human, you know, the genocidias to become killers. And throughout the interviews, we discovered that some people were involved in genocide because they were told if you kill Tutsi, you will get their properties, you will get their cows, you will get all of that.

So means poverty has a role somehow, you know, contributing in the cause of the genocide. But then look at the poor genocide process. We have genocides victims who had not only lost their beloved one and their properties. cows and houses, but they had lost hope because of the trauma. So when they recover from the trauma, they regain also their hope for the future.[00:17:00]

So they need to work because now they have a sense and the meaning of they understand the sense of the meaning of life. But on the other side, we have genocidal perpetrators who have been in the prison for 10, 15 years. They are restored back in the society. They are integration, but they need to work hard Maybe to try to catch up on the 10, 15 years lost in the prisons.

So that’s why economic empowerment, economic development is a very important pillar if we want to move toward sustainable peace and reconciliation. And finally, youth leadership or youth empowerment. You know, Leadership matters in anything when you talk about the vision, when we talk about the political I mean, ideologies and or sort of like what we see in the world today, just one single leader.

 A speech of [00:18:00] one leader changes the history of U. S.

 That’s why it’s very critical to educate our young people. That’s when you become leaders, you need to understand what leadership means and the influence of leaders to society and communities and be leaders, not for your own sake, your own benefit, but be a unifying leader, a united leader, a leader who sees.

It’s a vision of, of bringing people together, not a leader who’s divide people. So that’s why all the four pillars are very critical, very important to us.

Gissele overdub: Yeah. And that is so, so powerful. And as I said, very well thought out because you’re hitting some of the major things. Number one is like you’re teaching the young people to critically think.

So you can say to people that you’re a democracy, but if you don’t behave like a democracy. And maybe you’re not a democracy you’re talking about the power of conversation. People aren’t talking anymore. They’re just [00:19:00] cancelling each other. They’re just like, well, I’m done with you. I don’t need to talk.

But having those difficult conversations is really pivotal. And the last thing is really like, One of the things I’ve learned in my experiences and talking to people on my podcast is that when people are in survival whether it be their physical body or whether it be economically, they can’t think about love and compassion and reconciliation and seeing somebody else as the, as a brother and sister.

They see people as others because they’re too busy surviving. So what you are doing is you’re helping them shift out of that survival mode by helping them with their economic development so that they then can be open. to talking about how to create a world that is more united, and I think that’s so powerful.

 I do have a question though. How do you get the people that have acted as perpetrators to address their shame so that they can have those conversations? because [00:20:00] In my experiences, I’ve seen people really get very defensive or deny. How do you help them get to the other side of that so that they can be able to engage in the dialogue and listen with an open heart?

Christophe: That’s, that’s a good question. And as I agree with you how to when we all think about post violence, post genocide in the context of Rwanda, post conflict there’s a tendency which comes from the human nature to wish to focus more on the survivors, which, which makes sense because, you know, there’s, that’s, you know, empathy, that’s, you know, easily comes in. . The journey of perpetrators, it’s, it’s, it’s really a very difficult journey because when you have committed a crime such as the genocide, when you have been involved in murdering people that you knew and innocent people, Like psychologically, to even recover and understand [00:21:00] and come back to the normal sense of humanity, it takes time.

So, but in the context of Rwanda, we’ve got people after their sentences, they thought we’ve done our sentence, we’ve paid the price for our crime. Why do you want us to come in the conversation? So it has, it has been a long journey with different stages and steps. Because first of all, After the genocide, the government of Rwanda taught how to deal with justice, but a very destructive justice system.

That’s, we enable, first of all, the truth to be revealed and to be told, but secondly, maybe to create an opportunity from which perpetrators can relate with survivors after they would have known the truth. So that’s when there was the, what called the Gachacha (Restorative Justice) Courts, which basically it’s called the, you know, the court from the grass.

It’s where you invite [00:22:00] community members all coming together and you invite the perpetrator and the victim to stand there and you listen, you hear their case. But also every committee member has a say, you know, can say, raise their hands and contribute to that. So when that happens, first of all, genocide suspected people in the prisons were encouraged to come forward, speak the truth, accept their involvement in their crimes, so that their sentence would be reduced.

Initially, they did not believe so. They did not believe that was true. But through the government, you know, encouragement and Teachings, they, they start coming forward, accepting, acknowledging their crime and asking for forgiveness, like confessing, not asking, but confessing. And then they came out to go through the Gachacha court in the community.

So then whoever was [00:23:00] truthful and in the community by the committee member, they will say this person has been truthful in what they said and has been remorseful. So the sentence got reduced, then these people came back in the society live side by side with the victims. Now, yes, you’ve come out of the prison.

But the question is, are you truly free or you still deal with the inner prisons? Because you can be out of the four walls, like the physical prisons, but still psychologically live in the prison. And so when we approach them and we invite them, so as cursor they now they know, maybe there’s an opportunity to deal with the psychological prison that we’ve been dealing with after we were out of the physical prison.

So that’s how we start with these people. However, [00:24:00] remember that. One of the reasons why these people committed genocide, it was propaganda. It was all the many years prior to the genocide. They did what they believed was the right thing to be done.

Gissele overdub: So when we did,

Christophe: yes, when we thought we are killing the enemy, we are taking, we are whipping out the enemy and you can live well without that.

So now when they come and meet the survivor and hear and learn how they are, crime have created huge consequences to the victims. We have experienced that through research. We did release a survey, their self forgiveness decreases. Because now they understand. Initially they thought, yes, we’ve done evil, but You know, we had no choice in a sense, but now when they learn, when they approach and they see it and they understand, they listen from the survivor, they hear the huge [00:25:00] devastation, the huge effect they have caused to the victim, then the self forgiveness decreases.

So that’s why we have what we call like the workshop, but also have what we call the concession cell groups. Why? Because that’s where the conversation continue in the, at the community level, at the village level. And then the perpetrators. Now, they are able to then ask for forgiveness, truly confess. And sometime they say, I don’t deserve forgiveness because what I’ve done to use it.

It’s unimaginable. It’s unhuman, but please. Forgive me. So that’s when they hear and they see the responses from the survive from the survivor from the victims, then that’s when they get it from their shame and their guilt. So what we have learned here is this. You know, sort of like, you know, punitive justice, [00:26:00] you know, we have today, the criminal justice systems, we see today, where a perpetrator is put behind the bar sentence for 1020 years, the victim or the survivor stays in the community, some type of no help over limited help, and these people never come together.

The question always ask people who benefit from that justice. Who’s benefiting from that?

Gissele overdub: I spoke to a friend of mine. Oh, sorry. Go ahead.

Christophe: Yes. No, no, go ahead.

Gissele overdub: I was going to share the fact that I have a friend who does compassion in the prison system work. And that’s what she had said to me. She said, you know, we’re doing, we’re asking these.

prisoners to do a Herculean effort of trying to be more loving and compassionate and understand the impact of their behavior when you, we put them in prison, separate them from everyone and put and surround them with people that have the same mentality. So how is it that they’re going to get there? It really is through that what you were [00:27:00] talking about, the reconciliation, the, the, the community going back and facing the impact of those, the behavior from the place of compassion of like, Hey, this is the impact.

I think that’s really what gets people to change. And so I agree with you it that those, these systems don’t benefit anyone. In fact, it’s sort of a cycle of you go back and then you, you loop back and commit another crime. So it’s not helping anyone.

Christophe: There’s no, there’s no better way I can say it. Than what have what you’ve said.

It’s exactly that. Yeah. And, and I’m talking from very practical point of view, like the only way to take away the, the, the guilt and the shame from any perpetrator. It’s actually to allow the perpetrator to see, to meet and to hear from the survivor, the victim. Even if the anger, expressing, the anger, expressing the bitterness toward the, the perpetrator.

People want to know. And to hear from their victims of how [00:28:00] they are feeling from their crime. At least that’s, if that’s not

Gissele overdub: there,

Christophe: people die with their, they are guilty.

Gissele overdub: I completely agree, completely. Can you talk about Cows for Peace and how this idea came about? Because just based on your documentary, so, so significant.

And so I want you to share it a little bit with my audience.

Christophe: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, the Cow for Peace program is a CARSA sort of like creative initiative that we started. Now it’s actually becoming, people have done a few research around that and we are working on making that sort of like, for instance, once I was in Chicago and people asked me in their context, like, what is the cow in our context?

I say, I don’t know, you need to figure out what that is. Anyway, how did it start? You know, when we started bringing together Genocide Survivors and Perpetrators and using a [00:29:00] seven day workshop program that we have, at the end, we thought, this is just A beginning of long, a long process. We cannot expect or assume that seven days of conversation is enough to deal with this deep issue.

So then that’s when the second stage came, what we callresilience or reconciliation cell groups where these people at the village level, they meet on a regular basis. It’s locally led. They elect their own leader and, you know, we only support the continue. So when that’s happened initially. Yes, they started meeting, but it was not sustainable.

Then we started thinking, how do we make this really in a great collaborative journey? That’s people we want to commit for a long time. So that’s when we thought maybe if we find a common interest, a shared interest, that’s we bound these people together. You know, [00:30:00] that’s, we probably help them to, to stay in the journey and do the process.

That’s how the cow came in mind. And then when the cow came into mind, I remember we started with one cow. Just one cow. Because we had these people, two people. One was called John and Chantal. John was the perpetrator, Chantal the survivor. And they took a long journey for Chantal to forgive John. And then when Chantal was able to forgive John, welcoming John to his family, to her family, her house.

You know, really express forgiveness. Then we thought, how do we make this sustainable? The cow idea came in mind, and we gave the cow to share. So when we start observing them, and then we start even remembering what the cow mean in our context, in our culture. First of all, historically, cows have been used by the Germans to divide the Rwandans.

That’s historically, historically, because when the Belgian [00:31:00] divided the Rwandans, what they call the ethnicity Hutu and Tutsi, initially they said, whoever had 10, 000 above is Tutsi and whoever had less than 10, Hutu. So people could shift from one group to the other. That’s historical. It’s ridiculous. You have to remember that.

Yeah, you can read it’s, it’s out there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So then this cow had been used initially to divide the Rwanda. That’s one. But secondly, cow has a different meaning in our culture. It has a very cultural meaning whereby when we, we are married, when someone want to marry, we pay Dowry. And the Dowry, it’s a cow.

Even in the city where people no longer have the cows, they pay money, but they still call the cow. So it’s, it’s there, but thirdly, culturally. Cow, it’s, it’s a sign used to be a sign of wealthy and dignity in the community. Whoever had a cow will no longer be considered as a [00:32:00] poor. Why? Because of the significance and the value and that’s cows bring the family at the family level.

But fourthly, cows, it’s the animal that’s produced milk in our context and milk is very nutritional drink, but also it’s, it’s a source of income. So it becomes at one side, it’s, it’s very. Social, cultural, and, you know, animal that has a unique meaning. That’s when they, this cow is given to these two people to raise it together, collaboratively raise the cow together.

It’s the number one, helps the people to meet on a regular basis. because they raise the cow. Secondly, involve their families because the children will be involved in that. And the spouses. And thirdly, when they start sharing the milk and how the neighbors seeing these former enemies now visiting each other to raise the cow.

People believe [00:33:00] because now the forgiveness is no longer theoretical. It’s practical. You cannot share with your enemy a drink such as the milk. You cannot invite an enemy to come and milk the cow at your house and share the milk. You cannot give a cow to your enemy. So the forgiveness becomes tangible and real.

And that’s why it becomes extreme forgiveness because they are sharing the cow but also remember, raising the cow up to the point when it has a calf, and the calf is grown up enough to be given to the, by the survivor to the perpetrator, it’s, it’s not less than a year, 12 months or 16 months.

And as a collaborative, they raise the cow together. There’s some conflict that arises around raising the cow together. So when they are able to solve these problems around the responsibilities of sharing the code, raising the cow together, you are actually storing their, their resilience capacity. Now, I

Gissele overdub: was [00:34:00]

Christophe: It’s not just the conflict around the genocide, but now normal conflict that we all deal in our daily lives.

So that’s resilience capacity growing around dealing with the conflict around raising the shared cow. Then it makes these people to be even prepared citizen to be peaceful community members. So the cow has become a very unique tool that have been playing in magic. extraordinary role in bringing, I mean, forgiveness and reconciliation between genocidal survivors and

Gissele overdub: perpetrators.

Oh, amazing. You know, as you were talking, Christophe, I was thinking, you know, like through your cow project, you’re actually living, Martin Luther King’s vision of love has the power to transform an enemy into a friend. Right. and what I, what I loved about your documentary is that you were talking about how the cow actually brings out issues.

It brings out whether or not people have truly forgiven and whether or not [00:35:00] truly they can come together because you were so honest in your documentary, because there was a struggle between you know, a former victim and a former perpetrator that there were, there were, there were still issues that were coming up in terms of managing the cow, right?

Like lack of trust and so on. And so I love how the cow is such a deep symbol, and it’s such a way to keep the conversation going and keep people and for people to. work together and see a unifying force because I think that’s the struggle. And that’s why the division is people don’t see what the, what the common humanity is.

But in your case, you are, you are creating that. Speaking of your documentary you talked in the documentary about how You know, many friends and families turn into enemies because of the genocide. And I wanted to ask you, this is more of a philosophical question, but what do you believe causes someone to lose their humanity?

Christophe: Yeah. You know, when we talk about losing humanity let me first say that losing [00:36:00] humanity is not just the Rwandan. Issue just based on the genocide of what happened in genocide, losing humanity, not just an African issue, where sometimes Western tend to believe that Africans are always violent and brutal.

Losing humanity is actually a global issue. And it’s, it’s across the board. It’s, it’s, you know, across race and, and religion and, and all of that. And why? I think we need first to understand why do people lose humanity? We see now, as we speak today, we see in many part of the world, innocent children, innocent women and elder people being brutally killed by guns and all sort of, you know, weapons.

And you tend to ask yourself a question, what’s going on in the mind of these people when they just shoot blindly [00:37:00] in a particular community or city or town, not thinking that people are there deserve the same life as their own people. But then you think of the division we’ve been talking about.

We live in a very diversity, diversity society, and we have so many differences. But at the same time, we have many in common, but the human nature tend to focus on the diversity and the differences than to the common. We all bleed the same blood, you know, we tell people that it’s very interesting. I wish I would ask God why he did so like we all share the same type of blood, A, B, O, and AB.

There’s no type of blood of Chinese or [00:38:00] African, black, white women. We all share that. But why do we tend to more focus on the differences? First of all, it’s the fear of the other. And the fear of the other is either created by political narratives, or ethnic or racial narratives, where we think the others are the causes of our pain, the causes of our troubles, they want to take away our benefits, and our comfort zones.

And so then we, we, we tend to create sort of like bubbles where we feel we are comfortable when we are only us versus others.

That’s, that’s first. But secondly, when you look at the stage of the genocide, It’s what we call, or they call dehumanization. Dehumanization, it’s when you take away [00:39:00] humanity out of the others, and you no longer see them as human. You see them as enemies, as in the context of Rwanda, they saw Tutsi as snakes, cockroaches, and all other names.

So that what we see today. So all the differences we have racial, religion, gender nowadays, and all of that, then we see they are no longer human because the human cannot behave that way. So when you take humanity out of the human being, of course, you kill a snake. In your mind, you’re not killing a human beings as you, you are even excited to kill a snake.

You are, you’re excited to kill this animal and why? Because you’ve taken away humanity from the other person. But secondly, when you do that, you’re also taking humanity from yourself.

And so We lose humanity when we take away humanity from others, just for our [00:40:00] own benefits, you know, or the fear of the others, or, or political propaganda that’s at all. That’s if you know, educated and all of that, then also take humanity from us because we don’t see that anymore but start gradual.

It’s division as you know, like, you know, I can’t eat with these people, I can’t talk with these people. I can’t, you know, go or my neighbors annoying. They do this. Mm-Hmm. exactly. So when we start creating division as versus them, that’s the first stage, then you go to the other stages as, as you know, it’s safe from classification, symbolization, discrimination, you know, dehumanization, then all of those, then it goes gradually.

It’s not just how something happens. In the day, you know, when we see the political differences, I mean, the political ideologies and the political lines that are more, you know, growing today. [00:41:00] Hey, we should be now more intellectual and we should have learned from the history. That’s why don’t we? Because the human nature of selfishness.

Of wanting more and as only in as only. And we forget about that so it’s, it’s really something complex.

Gissele overdub: Yeah.

Christophe: But at the same time, it’s more we lose humanity to was that we take away you might from others and we lose our humanity, then whatever we do. When we bomb somewhere, we don’t believe we are bombing, bombing to people.

We think we are only bombing to whatever you, we call them. It’s you know, all those names you put on them and they deserve that because they are evil and we forgot our own evil. And, and therefore we have lost. And that’s why we see what we saw today, why it’s just, you know, but mainly deep down, it’s the fear of the others.

Gissele overdub: Yeah. You know, in fear is [00:42:00] so like this fear and perspective of lack is really what, what we continue to choose. And I think is what’s causing all this havoc in our world. And even when you look at those people that are quote unquote. Powerful and that are dividing the world meaning that, you know, the people that show extraordinary greed and whose political agenda is to divide, they’re coming at it from a place of fear and lack.

You could be a billionaire and still be in a lot of lack because that’s what you need more and more and more and more and more. And, and the thing is, I do believe that comes from a lack of self love and a lack of, of like that. connection because you’re so separated from yourself that you do these things.

You see somebody as the other. You need to stand in and divide people so that you can get power, but that’s not true power. That’s just force. That’s not true power. In the truly powerful, stand in their own mastery. In the truly not powerful, need to do that, need to divide people, need to [00:43:00] accumulate as much as possible.

And so we have misunderstood power for a very long time, but it goes back to the fear. You were saying that we become so fearful and we have to choose to love. We have to choose to not see that rather than choosing to dehumanize. You were going to say,

Christophe: yeah, I want just to add something on what say, thanks for that.

I think many people live with psychological emptiness and the vacuums. That they think, wealth and power, we, we complete that, we cover that, and unfortunately, It will not. And then they continue. They think, actually, if I can get more, then it would be satisfied. If I get more power and have more control, I’ll be satisfied.

Why? Because individual people have the vacuum, psychological [00:44:00] vacuum and psychological brokenness and emptiness that cannot be filled or covered with all what they think, rather than acknowledging that. And accept and accepting to get support. So then they give names and they justify and they round people around them.

Maybe we’ve shared interest. And then they think if you have more power going to control and then we are more safe and so it’s as I said it’s more complicated. It’s, you know, very complex. But what I think is that. Awareness and acknowledging that’s actually this not the solution has never been the solution.

So therefore, let’s let’s, you know, accept and come at the table. That’s that’s the [00:45:00] answer, because I always tell people that we always live with whatever we live with it. The differences, as I’ve mentioned, or psychological. And wellness that comes from many things we need to face to accept that it’s a reality and the fact, you know, we need to accepting acknowledging, you know, but also embracing and dealing with that in a positive way than using that as another weapon to harm society and harm ourselves.

So, that’s the way.

Gissele overdub: Yeah. Yeah. This goes to my next question, which is like what do you think is the starting point for people? Because I mean, I mean, you see people that have like, like a chasm in terms of division, right? Like you’re talking victim perpetrator, but there are people that are still, they’re reinforcing that division and causing further, further division out.

What do you think would be the first step that people can take towards coming together? Maybe who might [00:46:00] have conflict with their neighbors, with their brothers or sisters or whatever. What, what’s the first step they could take in terms of coming even one step closer towards conversation or towards just eradicating that division?

Christophe: Yeah, you know, that’s a, that’s a very difficult question and good one. Why? Because when we see, like, we tend to look at all those divisions from above. When we look at societies, countries, you know, all, you know, political level where, you know, but we tend to first start from the individual level.

Today, we have so many siblings who cannot talk to each other. So many, we have former friends who have become enemies. [00:47:00]

Gissele overdub: Yeah.

Christophe: That’s at the individual level. And I think that’s where we need to start the conversation from before we start thinking about how do we bring these two politicians, the same table in the same room?

Gissele overdub: It’s

Christophe: how do we bring siblings one who comes after the other? How do we make talk to each other? How do we make true that talk to family, to parents in the other way around? How do we make spouses to talk to each other for me, when that happens, then I can think about that’s higher. That’s why at CARSA, we identify ourselves as a very grassroots community organization, because we see individuals.

We see communities before we think about the nation. Why? Because that’s where everything

Gissele overdub: starts.

Christophe: So I think this question for me, it’s how do we make that happen? And I think for that to happen, there are some steps that need to take place. [00:48:00] In some cases, first of all, maybe the process won’t look the same because of various reasons.

One, the context, the context, but also the culture. You know, there are cultures where people don’t talk to their neighbors generally and they think that’s normal. Sorry to say, but in the places where, when you enter it, you know, in a bus or a train, you make sure you, you know, you are room and you don’t move around so that you don’t touch your neighbor.

Like you create your own world in the bus, like, you know, your privacy where you, you know, that’s, that’s, you know, my, my place. So I think culture also plays an important role or need to be, you know, yeah. But. In some contexts, you need people who we facilitate the conversation,

who, who first of all, we go [00:49:00] with the intention to understand each side. It’s part that you listen. Why are you not talking to a sister? Why are you not into a brother? Then people will express themselves with the anger, with the bitterness, with the accusation, with, you know, the victimization. I mean, the victim, which would, you know, everything.

Then you listen, but then you ask questions. When you ask questions to unlock. The people to move from their emotional side to the logical side of their brain. Then people start thinking, and then you go to the other side. But if that’s not there, people play victimization or victimhood from both side.

That’s one. But secondly, human nature. We are, as I said earlier, we are very selfish and we tend to think. Why do you want me? Why not him or her come first? You know, me to accusation, me to blame, [00:50:00] then that will never happen. The conversion will never take place. That’s why we need to first, it’s like, it’s like cleaning the space and the space of it has to be cleaned from both sides, where mutual accusation, mutual blame goes aside.

And the people start thinking themselves, Then to understand the pain and the suffering that’s the experiencing from the fact of not being able to talk to the whatever enemy. Let’s suppose that’s the enemy’s there and enjoying seeing you suffering. So what are benefiting? So when people understand actually by not talking, by not coming at the same table, you are actually digging yourself.

You are putting more deep and deep in the hole yourself.

Gissele overdub: Yeah.

Christophe: Then people understand, okay, I’m barring myself here at the end of come to the level I can’t even breathe anymore. [00:51:00] And that’s why it causes so many physical sicknesses, diseases that experience coming from no psychological, emotional issue that people cannot deal with.

So I, again, as I said, that’s not a conversation we can have, you know, it’s something that’s need to have the more time. You know, it’s it’s a great starting point to see that. For me, when I think of that individual level of people not coming to it, that’s what makes me more even feel bad because, and at the end, let me tell you who is perfect, who is innocent, who human beings will raise their hands and say, you know, I’ve been always victim in the innocent,

Gissele overdub: who in

Christophe: this world we live

Gissele overdub: in.

Yeah. As Jesus would say, cast the first stone if you’re.

Christophe: So it might be a [00:52:00] minor role, but still, you know, let’s, let’s call people, let’s be bridge builders. And not bridge destroyers. Why? Because at the end of the day, we all need to cross the river to either go to the other side for various reasons. So when you understand that, then you are not doing that’s actually for, for actually, it’s not a gift we are giving to others.

It’s a gift to even we give to ourselves when we accept to come together and talk about a nation.

Gissele overdub: Yeah. Yeah. And I do believe that what we do for others, we do for ourselves and what we do for ourselves, we do for others in terms of our healing. So I just, a couple more questions. What does unconditional love mean to you?

I ask all my guests that question.

Christophe: Unconditional love it’s, it means

vulnerability.

Gissele overdub: Good answer. Oh, so last question. Where can people [00:53:00] find your organization? Where can they volunteer? Where can they donate? Maybe talk about the documentary. Anything that you want to say in terms of where people can come and find out more about CARSA and maybe work with CARSA.

Christophe: Yes CARSA is a, is a, an organization that’s based in Rwanda, as I said, and we have a different nowadays with technology, we have website, we have social media. Like if you go, you know, www.carsaministry.org, then you find most of the information there. You can either have, you know, look at our different videos and, and documentaries that are there, some publications, you know, and can also get access to Facebook.

Check out CARSA’s documentary “Blood and Milk”: here

And read about “Unforgiven”: here

You know, Twitters now called x. You know, you can go to, you know YouTube. We have also some videos and YouTube. If you cast a ministry, then you get some YouTube. So there are, you know, different channels and platform from which you can get, you know, to know organization. But second, we invite people always to come and visit our work [00:54:00] and first hands.

Why? Because We know world is full of people doing great jobs in many different areas. And there are so many generous people also out there who want to be part of something bigger than themselves. And we appreciate anyone who has contributed to the work of CARSA in the past and even currently, but we encourage and invite people to come because the work that CARSA is doing, it’s not just for Rwandans, it’s not just for CARSA.

Come and experience, come and see, come and, and touch the ground because what God is doing through CARSA in Rwanda is something that’s need to be experienced and be adapted and hope and create hope. So, and also people invite CARSA sometimes people have invited me to speak like you did virtually or physically.

I go in and speak to conferences, you know, [00:55:00] churches, gatherings, workshops, and I’m always open when people invite me to go and, and, and share what we’ve been learning. Because I believe that’s what we’ve been seeing, because let me say this.

Working in the area of reconciliation, peace building in the current world. If you look at what is happening in the world, it tends to be very discouraging. You wonder if even what you’re doing is making any, any, any contribution, is making any small change. There’s so many violence happening, conflict around the world.

But personally, as the director of CARSA, as the founder of this organization, Why I wear every day woke up with believing that they should continue really passionately work into reconsent. It’s what I’ve been seeing in Rwanda. And I tell people [00:56:00] if forgiveness is possible between the genocide survivors and perpetrators in Rwanda, forgiveness is possible anywhere.

In any context, if a genocide survivor can welcome a person have murdered the entire family in his home, and the share me and Johnny together. There’s a hope that that can happen. That’s constant. And we invite people to come to volunteering. We host student for internships. We invite people for doing research with us.

So the different ways that we Host in partner with people and collaborate with people from all over the world who wants to come and, and, and support and be part of what God is doing through CARSA. So please welcome whoever listened to this podcast. You know, go on the website, you find CARSA and his email, his phones, you know, contacts would be happy to respond and welcome you and collaborate in any way [00:57:00] possible.

So thank you very much.

Gissele overdub: Thank you so, so much. And please check out CARSA, check out their documentary, blood and milk, and stay tuned for another episode of the love and compassion podcast with Giselle.

Christophe: Thank you. Thank you very much.

Gissele overdub: [00:00:00] Hello and welcome to the Love and Compassion podcast with Giselle. We believe that love and compassion have the power to heal our lives and our worlds. Don’t forget to like, and subscribe for more amazing content.

Today we’ll be talking about bringing compassion into the school system, and we’ll be talking to Kara Cosby, who is the Compassionate School Project Teacher at Englehart Elementary School in Louisville, Kentucky she has delivered the Flourish curriculum in grades K to five for six years and is a Compassionate Schools Project Flourish teacher trainer.

She’s also a certified mindfulness director with Whole School Mindfulness. She has completed a master’s degree in elementary education and teaching from the University of Louisville, and has a master’s in education and educational leadership and administration from [00:01:00] Asbury University. Please join me in welcoming Kara.

Hi, Kara. Hello. Hello. Hello. I’m so excited to talk to you because I think compassion in the school system is so, so needed, especially at this time. I was wondering if you could tell the audience a little bit about how you started in this work. How is it that you became this compassionate schools.

Project teacher.

Kara: Okay, so I was a fourth and fifth grade teacher in JCPS. I moved away to Denver, Colorado. I taught for two years there. And then when I decided to come back to Louisville, I kept seeing these positions called the Compassionate schools project. I had no idea what it was but I saw there was several.

So I applied for them. And then I, of course, after applying, started investigating to see, okay, what is this compassionate schools project? What do they do? And then when [00:02:00] I dove a little deeper and found out like what it really involves, I thought, wow, because. I am totally into vision boards, and I had had on my vision board for about a year that I was going to teach yoga.

And so when I found out that this position actually incorporated mindful movement I was so excited. And so that’s how the whole journey began.

Gissele overdub: I love vision boards, and I love being able to kind of align with your manifestation. So that’s, that’s pretty exciting.

Kara: That’s what it felt like, that full circle moment.

Gissele overdub: Yeah, for sure. I love it when life happens like that. Tell us a little bit about what sort of, curriculum you delivered to the young people and maybe perhaps how you define compassion.

Kara: Okay, so the curriculum is broken into 7 units. It starts from the beginning where it’s all about self and, and just learning how to be your [00:03:00] best self and just what is compassion. And so we dive into that first. It’s a very short unit, but then it travels after you introduce compassion into emotions.

Unit three is like all about being your best self. self. So we talk about like what we need to be our best selves. I love the emotions unit because it gives me the chance to show inside out, which is literally one of my favorite cartoons. And so Oh, as it goes from self, it moves into friendships and relationships.

So we moved from self to friendships, relationships, just how we interact with others. Then the last two units are like community based. So it moves out of. I mean, it’s still about relationship building, but much more on a wider scale. And so we finish out with unit seven, which is a community service project.

You come up with the project for your school and it’s something that you guys do for the community. And that’s how it all ends every [00:04:00] year. So for me, In terms of like what compassion is in my definition probably has changed so many times, but ultimately, you know, when I ask the kids, what is compassion, you know, they’re like being nice and they think it’s about being nice to others, but I really teach them that compassion is about kindness and it’s not just about being kind to other people, but learning how to be kind to yourself first.

Because you are first. Then once we take care of ourselves, then we can go out and be our best self for everyone else. So that’s really, I love the way it flows. Now there have been times where I have gone out of order just because of like, what’s happening in school. So like, if I see. One year, I think the kids were just having a really hard time.

It was the very beginning of school year, but they were having a hard time getting along. So I really dove into unit five first, which was like all about friendships and cooperative learning and just how to work with people. So we, we kind of jumped around that year.

Gissele overdub: [00:05:00] I think that’s such a great idea because we are meeting the kids where they’re at, right?

Kara: habit. Okay. You know, they’ve been having it for years, so you can kind of do that, but not with your kindergarten. It’s because it’s like their first time.

Gissele overdub: Yeah. Yeah, for sure. And is this program embedded within this school? Like, is it something that happens every year or is it just a, it’s a limited time project?

Kara: So the Compassionate Schools Project is actually like a study, you know, it started off at As a study with the University of Virginia they were like doing a lot of data keeping in the beginning and, you know, it was all like trying to gauge how this program would impact schools. And I guess over time, you know, the, the survey part wrapped up and they got the research and then.

It kept going. it has happened every year and it is like, a class. So in every school probably does it different, but my school utilizes it as like a special area or itinerant class, like along with PE and art and things like [00:06:00] that.

Gissele overdub: Beautiful, beautiful. And can you share a little bit about some of the outcomes that you’ve seen, like sort of the impact on the children who have taken this course in particular?

Kara: I feel like you know, the great thing is we start in kindergarten. So the real the real proof is in watching a child who came in at kindergarten and is now graduating fifth grade, you know, so they’ve had it for six years.

And so over that time, I really get to see the change in behavior. Now, I will say, like, if I think about there’s this one particular student that I always meet. Use as my example when he came in, he was a first grader, very angry, would storm out of class over the smallest things and would curse at teachers.

I mean, he, he was just a very emotional child, but over the years I noticed that he could learn [00:07:00] to regulate and he. Like if he got upset in class, he would like go off to a corner. So now instead of storming out of the room, we’re learning how to go find us a space by ourselves. And so over time, I just watched how his reactions they changed, you know, and I don’t ever, you know, try to take credit, like, Oh, CSP did that, you know?

But I think maturity and. You know, they’re learning these skills every year. And the one thing I do love is like the lessons are by like K and one have the same lessons. So if you came in and kindergarten, you’re going to see the same deck lessons again in first grade. And then when you go to second grade, a whole new set of activities and things, and then the same thing for fourth and fifth, so you really get to kind of see kids move through the different grade levels and just how the activities change.

But I think the core. You know, the core is like the calming and focusing, And we’re [00:08:00] breathing, we’re stretching, and those things are consistent. And so I feel like over time, it really teaches the kids how to regulate, you know, when they face different adversities in life.

Gissele overdub: And this is so important because I think the school system doesn’t really teach Children, how to regulate if they expect them to know to come in knowing that but some kids don’t always have that or get that example at home. And so the school does give them the opportunity to, with your program, it’s giving them the opportunity to practice a very, very important skill, especially in leadership.

You sort of need empathetic people who are able to regulate their own emotions before they manage conflict. That’s very important in leadership. And so I think what you’re doing is phenomenal. What has been the engagement from the teachers and the principals in terms of the, the program?

Kara: My principal loves the program. His kids [00:09:00] actually, you know, came through the CSP project. So, you know, he would come back and tell me stories like how they were coming home and teaching their little brother the fresh start sequence. And so, you know, that’s when I’ll begin to hear little stories, you know, and the teachers in that way also will report back like on, you know, things people are doing in class or, you know, he all of a sudden he was getting upset and he found his anchors.

And so, you know, over time, I feel like. You know, there’s just been little things that happen and it kind of brings it to the attention. Now I have teachers who love CSP and they will come in, sit on a mat, you know, they’ll join us for coming and focusing and then they’ll leave and go have their planning.

I’ve really with whole school. So whole school didn’t really come into the picture until the past two years. But with whole school, it has really opened my eyes in terms of how to expand beyond my classroom and how can I bring in teachers and how can I touch the community? [00:10:00] How can we get to the parents and the families?

So with whole school, it has really kind of pushed me to find ways to get the teachers. So we started this calm program and it’s an outside instructor. She comes in, she does mindful movement and breathing with the teachers. And so that was like something that many teachers loved. And so I just try to find ways to, you know, bring the teachers in because the teachers already, they just think of me like, Oh, this is just another class.

But then they start to see like what we do. And I’ve made it a point to like pass out the posters that I use. And so everybody has a calm place in their room now. Which is something we just started last year. So I gave every teacher, you know, posters that have breathing strategies, things that kids can do, things that they see already in my classroom, but now let’s transfer it to your class.

So they’ve been receptive. I will say they’ve been very receptive.

Gissele overdub: And I think that’s so important for engagement, right? Like if they see, if [00:11:00] the children see an alignment in this in the teachers in terms of the practice in like an allowance, almost like you’re allowed to have this space And I think it makes it easier for the kids to, to really practice those skills in the different environments. I’ve been in leadership, so I know how important it is to have that acceptance at all the different levels, because if you don’t have engagement from that leadership it can be really hard to implement.

You talked about. The community projects. And I think this is so important. Can you give me a few examples of some of the, the community projects that you, that the students have put together?

Kara: Okay, so over the years, we’ve done a lot. I think in the very beginning, we did things like, you know, project cleanup campus cleanup day. And so, you know, the kids got gloves and I feel like Metro United or some local organization might have done that. Like, they donated us gloves and bags and we had the little you know, [00:12:00] those little trash, like Yeah, yeah.

Like the little clippy things. Like Yeah. That just, yeah. Kids love that. They’re like, oh, we use that. So, you know, picking up trash, cleaning up our, our playground. I’m cleaning up our campus. We’ve even done small things like we get the sidewalk chalk. We go out on the street. We are located downtown pretty much so like on a corner block.

So I would have the kids spread out and we would have already done the messages in class. But I tell them, like, what’s a message that someone needs to see as they walk by? Like, what is something that you could say to someone that would brighten their day? We’re talking complete strangers. So they come up with a few words and then we go outside.

We each get a square, we decorate it so that people who are walking by see these positive messages, you know, put a smile on people’s face. Last year we really wanted to show appreciation for our bus drivers. So we made cards for the bus drivers and you know, it was very random and how we delivered them.

I mean, we went out, we put. Positive notes on [00:13:00] people’s cars and like stuck them in their windshield. So I was like, people are going to think they’re getting a ticket and they’re going to look at it. It’s going to have this positive message about how great they are and that’s going to make their day. So the kids were super excited to do it.

And Yeah, those are just like a few I can think about the top of my head. We really try to do something more like just those positive vibes, sending out positive vibes to the community. I’ve always wanted to do like a drive of some sort or like where they bring in things, but you know, the disadvantage too, is like I serve at a school.

Where the socioeconomic status is, is very low. So, it feels, you know, I, I struggle with, like, asking those kids, because these are the kids who would normally need donations. They would need those things that I’m asking for us to bring for the community. Really, they are that community. So I really have never kind of dove into that part because I’m always kind of worried about it.

So I really try to just stick to like, how can we make our neighborhood better? How can we put a smile on people’s faces? [00:14:00] And that seems to be the thing we go with here lately.

Gissele overdub: Yeah, you don’t, don’t underestimate the power of, of that. Of those positive words and that those positive energies the reason being is because somebody may have never heard that they’re worthy or beautiful or lovable.

They might have received something. They might have received like a cookie or, or, you know, like some food. But to hear you’re worthy, you are loved, you’re valuable to some people is the whole world and that’s what you’re doing. And so I think, yeah. And I think that’s, that’s not to be underestimated. Although I, I do totally agree with you in terms of generosity, but I think what you’re doing equally as, as worthwhile in terms of helping people.

And it’s sort of like, it’s very easy for us to, to catch the virus of negativity, right? it’s almost like a virus that just needs to spread the negativity, the [00:15:00] anger, the fear. So what you’re doing is you’re doing the opposite because that those people are then going to pass it onto someone else and they’re going to have a good day and therefore just going to spread around.

And from that, you are creating a community of love, which I think is so instrumental.

Kara: Yeah, sounds like paying it forward. That’s what I tell them.

Gissele overdub: Yeah. Yeah. And you’re teaching the kids the value of you know, that, that positivity, which I think is, is important. So what have you learned about student leadership from those sorts of projects does the program enable the students to really kind of step up and, and be leaders and learn about leadership?

So like in class, you know, there’s so many opportunities to be the leader and like, I really try to take a student centered approach. And so every day when they come in, you know, I’m always looking for like, who’s sitting down and doing the right thing because you’re going to lead us today.

Kara: So there’s always someone. Who leads us in calming and focusing. Someone has a chime, someone has the ball. Then we [00:16:00] have leaders who lead in terms of the mindful movement and they are like so eager to be the one to lead. Now in terms of the project, you just gave me a great idea because I’m like, yeah, we should have a like.

CSP ambassadors of some kind, like, and I know there is another CSP school and she does that. She has like fifth graders who are CSP ambassadors and they kind of like take the lead. I think they like go to other classrooms, maybe like kindergarten and first grade classrooms, and they might work with those kids and do some mindful movement.

And so I have really thought about How can I implement something like that, too? And I would love to have, like, student leaders do, like, our morning telecast, you know, and then maybe present, like, a mindful minute or something like that. So I’ve definitely thought about it. I feel like the only leadership so far has really been in class.

But I, I would love to expand it beyond that. I feel like there’s definitely a need for that, and it would help the kids so much to [00:17:00] just be in charge of something. You know, they feel good when they get to be in charge.

Gissele overdub: Yeah, for sure. And I think having run many, many programs when I was in leadership, one of the things that I, we were often in the same position that you were talking about, there’s limited funds, like this world might not be there tomorrow.

And so one of the things I always focused on is how could you integrate this into the culture so that I Like whoever they lose, then it’s not lost because that sometimes happens with programs, like the champions come in and they do these things and they do this amazing work and then they eject out for whatever reason and the program dies.

But when you have these ambassadors and champions, it lives on. And, but I, you know, That’s more of a formal role. I can already tell you that if you’re seeing different into the kids, they’re already those champions there that are, or that you are basically feeding from the very beginning in kindergarten all the way to, to fifth grade.

So I [00:18:00] think, so congratulations on that for sure. Yeah. I wanted to ask one of the, the challenges that I’ve seen here in the Canadian system in particular having gone through it as a child myself and with my own children. I, it’s a sometimes punitive approaches that happen with behavior issues.

And so, you know, like the, the approaches in terms of suspensions and, and sort of like the way we manage kids that are having problems. How has the compassionate schools project impacted the way that’s that schools respond to negative behavior?

Kara: So we have the here we have these they’re called SRT calls. Okay. So, like, if a child is. exploding or, you know, something has happened. The teacher makes a call and security or someone shows up to remove the child. And we are school that has a lot of those. And so my goal this [00:19:00] past year was how can I help cutting down some of these behavior issues?

So I implemented a program called the compassion coupons. Okay. And this was my first year trying them. So I gave teachers coupons like a little booklet and they were in 15, 20 and 25 minute increments on them was like It was like a cute little picture of a kid

And it says like this compassion coupon is for, and they would put the student’s name. And I told the teachers instead of calling SRT, let’s try giving them the gift of compassion first. So you, instead of calling SRT, you’re going to, you see something’s about to happen. You can sense it. You give that child a coupon and you say, go deliver this to Ms.

Cosby. So the child Is now focused on something else. So they come to my room and they say, I’m supposed to give this to you. And I, and I look at, I say, okay, well, what happened? You know, so they come in, we [00:20:00] talk now, if they come in and I’m in the middle of class, I just have them join in on whatever we’re doing.

So I don’t care what grade is in there. Get a mat. Join us. Let’s go. So usually they just kind of fall into whatever is already going on. And then I’ll try to find some time and talk to them one on one to find out like, you know, what happened? How you feeling? And usually, you know, they only need 15 to 20 minutes and they are smiles on faces and we’re ready to go back to class.

So that was super popular. And the teachers were very receptive with that. To it. I had some teachers who never wanted to use them and I had to tell them like, I think they like maybe felt bad. Like, I can’t just put them off on you. And I said, No, that’s not what you’re doing. You know, this is just as much for you as it is for them.

You know, just giving you a moment so that you can focus and teach the class and it’s giving them a break out of the classroom. So once teachers kind of once I talked to them and told them like, The purpose [00:21:00] behind it. Then they were like, Oh, okay. And I had way more compassion coupons being used. So I feel that in this coming year, the real proof will be to see, like, look at the numbers to see did SRT calls go down as a result of starting this.

And I really want to start it from the beginning of the year this year, because this came like midway through the year last year. So, I mean the real, I think we need to look and see, but I really love the idea of just like not getting upset with the child seeing that they have a need and then let’s try to address the need.

And I’m going to, I will work with you to do that.

Gissele overdub: Yeah. So thank you for sharing that. Such a beautiful story. And what a great initiative, because I think that’s one of the things that I found. We don’t get curious enough in the school system about what’s happening to the kids to cause that, that reaction.

Sometimes school is a hard day at the office for some of these kids. I used to work in the child welfare system, child protection system. I don’t know what they call it in the U [00:22:00] S. But many of those kids. Kids came from toxic homes or they were in the foster care system. So mother’s day, father’s day, very triggering.

And they weren’t going to say, excuse me, I’m being triggered by the fact that I don’t have family day coming up because of my family. They’re just gonna react. And so rather than getting curious and being loving, we respond in an equally aggressive manner, like calling a cop or suspending them.

We don’t get curious enough. So I love those compassion coupons because I think it does give them the opportunity to then say, Hey, I’m having a hard day in school or just to, to use the movement to release some of those pent up feelings. And so I think that’s very, very important. I remember having a an experience with a young person.

And, and I truly believe in re imagining people. Like sometimes we pigeonhole people into. Because this is, people say, Hey, Kara is [00:23:00] this particular way. And then everyone kind of sees you this way.

Kara: Yeah.

Gissele overdub: So, and so I had a little kid who was I was working at a daycare at the time and I was, I don’t know, I was like 17 and they gave me, cause I guess the teacher didn’t show up.

I guess she was sick. So they gave me the school age room and they’re like, here’s the school age room. Here’s the stuff. Here’s like. I don’t know, 15, 20 kids. And then they’re like, watch out for so and so. He’s terrible. He’s named a whole bunch of things. And so I go in there and I’m like, wide eyed. I’m like, listen, I’m 17.

I don’t know how to manage these kids. Yeah, like, I can’t manage 1 problematic kid. I really can’t. And so I turned to so and so and said, you’re going to be my helper today. You’re going to be the lead. What do you want to do? And the kid, 1st of all, he was shocked. Then 2nd of all, he was my best kid that day.

He led the kids make sure everybody listened. And as soon as his parents came in, I was, I was like, [00:24:00] Very sure to tell them he was my best kid today. He was my super helper. We did all of these amazing things. I allowed him to give some control. And that’s me as a 17 because I’m like, I can’t manage this kid today.

So he has to be my best helper. And so that was probably my first time re imagining people and thinking, you know what, this is a story or identity that somebody has put on you or you’ve been told, let’s shift that. And so I feel like that’s what your compassion coupons are doing is you’re re imagining what could happen with these kids.

And I think that’s, that’s very important. Yeah.

Do you find that as you get to grade five, that relationships are more important?

Kara: the conversations around that in fourth and fifth grade are so rich. I mean, we really get into like real situations. What happened on the playground? Well, they’re telling me about, oh, you know, someone got mad because, you know, I stepped on his shoe and he said this.

And so, you know, we [00:25:00] really get to dive into like the real. Stories because I always tell them, let’s, let’s go over a real life example. And then let’s talk about like how we could have reacted versus how we did react. And so I feel like the conversation around those parts in fourth and fifth grade are just so good.

Oh, they’re so rich. And it just, you can see the light bulb go off for them. It’s like, Oh, you know, but with my younger ones, You know, it’s got to be like really simple, but nonetheless, like we had so much conflict this last year in second grade and I don’t know we, you know, I think it’s one of those things you need to get to the bottom.

Like you said, like, investigate why is this? Why is this? Why is this particular grade having such a struggle this year because they were constantly fighting. And it was just, I mean, it was constant. So we really, my counselor and I, and I love that my counselor, she like loves to partner with me on so many projects throughout the year.

But we have been talking about next year, you know, like how can we target those kids early? Like we know. [00:26:00] What the problems were last year, like they’re going into third grade, we’re going to be proactive and not reactive. And we’re going to set up, you know, some small groups and get those kids into some extra CSP time.

And so the great thing is that this year, my schedule is opening up a little bit, way more than in the past. And so I’m super excited to do some SEL groups. And I told them like, you know, those tier two kids who are like on the verge of tier three. We can start pulling them, making small groups, you know, talking about conflict and just how to get along and all the things that they’re struggling with.

But that’s really good because then it allows us to kind of hone in on what is the real issue. And I think through conversation in small group, we will get to the real issue of what’s causing all this conflict.

Gissele overdub: Yeah, and I think what you said is so spot on. And I love that you recognize that this cohort is different in that you’re planning for it.

I think [00:27:00] that is so amazing because there’s some schools that don’t know the kids. Like, there’s some schools that don’t really know who they are. They don’t really know what’s going on for them. And the fact that you’re willing to say, Hey, I want to get to know and how to support this cohort in particular, like, instead of just sticking with my curriculum, yeah, the curriculum is important.

What else do they need? And therefore that you’re very curious about that. And I think that’s so important.

Kara: Yeah, and I will say at our school, we have a lot of people on our staff who are also working in conjunction with all of this. So, you know, we have a mental health practitioner full time. We have a full time social worker and, you know, we have the counselor.

So, you know, it’s really great because they already have small groups, some of these people. And so it will be really nice to just like work together and then see these kids multiple times and it not just be this like sporadic [00:28:00] when we have time, we meet with you. And a lot of times, you know, the mental health and the social worker, they meet one on one.

So I’m really excited to start the small group portion of this.

Gissele overdub: Yeah. And that’s how you prevent kids from falling through the cracks, right? That’s how you prevent kids from not being seen and acknowledged. And so I think that’s, that’s instrumental and that goes to like, you know, in particular you have this whole bullying and in school shooter fears.

How has this compassion based training helped the whole issue of like potentially the bullying and harassment

Kara: You know, so everybody thinks the kids think. Everything is bully, you know, me and I’m like, well, what did he do? And then they’ll explain what happened.

I’m like, oh, that’s not bullying. So, you know, I feel like bullying in America has been overused, you know, and to the point that kids don’t really [00:29:00] understand. What it is. They think if you say something mean to me, you bully, you’re bullying me. And I’ve had to just really explain like a bully is a person who is picking on you relentlessly.

Like they pick on you every day. I said, it’s not different people every day. I said, because kids tease each other. I went through it. I tell them all the names. I got called when I was a kid and they called me poor eyes and they just called me all kinds of things. I’m like, this is normal teasing.

Now, do we like it? No, no. And so we talk about like, how do you combat that? Because for some kids that is just like normal behavior. Normal conversation is to pick you apart. Let me talk about your shoes. Let me talk about about your clothes and talk about your hair. You know, anything they can find to talk about, they will talk about.

So I go over that. It’s like it’s so good that we get to talk about it because I bring it into the lessons and I’m like, you know, be clear. Like when people are picking on you, It’s because they don’t feel good. [00:30:00] They are not happy. And so we really look at how to like turn that around. Cause I say, you know, if, if somebody’s talking about my shoes, I’m, I’m looking at them going, Oh, I’m so sorry that you feel so bad that you need to talk about my shoes, you know?

So really it’s like working with kids on what to say when someone comes at. You negatively, how can you respond? Instead of you being negative back, you could say something else. You could do something else, you know? So, you know, by the end of the year, kids are very clear. Like, Oh, I’m walking away. Like, I’m not listening to him.

I’m just going to walk away. And I’m like, good. That’s a strategy. You can walk away. You can ignore them. You can go somewhere else and play with someone else. So they really pick up on through the, through the talking about these real life examples that, you know, not everything that I thought was bullying is bullying.

 because to me, someone who’s a bully, there’s a reason. And I always tell them that like, there’s a reason he’s that way. There’s a reason she is saying that.

And it’s really not about you. You, you know, they’re making it about you and they’re [00:31:00] making, trying to make you feel bad, but you don’t have to accept that. And so, you know, it really brings up like just some great conversation around what we allow out as human beings, you know, allowing what other people say to really get to us to the point that we are acting out of character, we are exploding.

Gissele overdub: So, you know, it just, it’s those teachable moments. I just really try to decipher with kids like, is that really bullying or is that teasing? Yeah. Thank you for sharing.

Yeah, thank you for sharing that. And I appreciate that because I think we’ve made kids hypervigilant because of the school shootings and drills during my times, I remember that there was this kid in my high school school. Who was bullied relentlessly and nobody said anything.

None of us said anything because we didn’t want to be also picked on. I was, I was a nerd too. I’m like, Oh, I don’t want to be the target. And and so then I remember this kid, cause I mean, I think he had had enough. He brought a knife to school. Right. Because he just wanted them to stop. He just wanted them to stop.

[00:32:00] And who knows why this other person used to consistently pick on this individual. Cause like you said, I think hurt people, hurt people. I think people that truly love themselves and are compassionate towards themselves and feel worthy don’t need to pick on other people. They just don’t, they don’t bother with you.

And the people that are not feeling good about themselves. It’s like, I need to pass this on. And so helping students. understand and address that I think is, is great. It’s great for the, for the kids. Yeah, I’m going to shift gears a little bit.

Kara: I remember my kids, they’re always constantly wiggling and moving. Like, how do they manage So, of course, you know, kindergarten is always the challenge because, you know, they’ve never done it.

And so they are usually the hardest group. However. I have my class set up in a way that you need to be successful in this. And so I’m, I really stress like we do these things and it’s for you, you know, I’m doing. this to teach you the strategy so that when you [00:33:00] get upset, you know how to regulate and calm yourself down.

And so once I have that conversation and the piece about at the end of class, we’re going to play some fun games. So if you don’t give me 100 percent then you won’t be invited to participate in the games. And so it’s like that dangling carrot, like, okay, you want this, but you’re This is what I need. And so, you know, that helps with those reluctant kids too, because there are always some kids who are just, what are we doing?

And why are we doing this? And they come in with a bad attitude and they. don’t want to participate in. I’m not doing this. It’s usually new kids who maybe my like fourth or fifth day, there’s a new student who’s never been to our school. So they are very much like, I’m not doing that. but they learn very quickly.

My class is fun. Like I make sure that it is a lot of fun. So even our activities, like if there’s always an activity that goes with every lesson, but like the beginning of class is serious. You come in, you sit quietly, you find your anchors. We’re going to do our, you [00:34:00] know, focusing We’re going to breathe.

And they know, like after about a week of class, I have no more playing around. There it is all gone. So I do a really good job just of setting up the routines and procedures for how I want things to run. And I’m very clear with the kids. Like today I have I had summer school today and I actually get to teach compassion, which is such a blessing because normally I’m teaching reading or math or something, but they actually said, we need an SEL teacher.

So I was like, great. So I had this. Little guy today and he was rolling the mat. They like to roll up like a hot dog in the mat and I’m like I understand you’re playing with the mat, but know that if you play now you won’t play later So you gotta decide I always make it a choice a choice You can choose that choose that if that’s what makes you happy But just know when we get to the end i’m going to ask you to sit I’m not going to ask you to play.

Okay, and so that exchange usually goes, oh, oh, okay, and then we’re sitting up and then we’re listening and we’re doing [00:35:00] the things because, oh, I want to play this game. You have at the end. I want to play it.

Gissele overdub: Yeah, for sure. Yeah, definitely.

Kara: Yeah.

Gissele overdub: Oh, I love kids. They’re so. So wonderful to

Kara: get my teachers to understand, like, if you just incorporate fun, I don’t care what you teach, because, you know, people thought like, oh, mindfulness is that’s kind of boring.

And how do the kids don’t want to do that? And it’s like, they may not. Some of them may not want to, but, but, but when you incorporate fun with it then they want to, and I mean, even my, some of my worst children have changed so much, they come in, they’re sitting down, they’re looking like leaders cause they want to be the leader.

They want to be the person who’s, who’s showing leadership and being picked to lead the class. And so when, like you said, just like. When you speak to the leader in them, that makes them rise, you know, and I feel I’m a huge proponent of high expectations because if I set the expectation here, they will rise to meet it.

They will because they love me. So, and you know, when they love [00:36:00] you, they want to do whatever you ask them to.

Gissele overdub: Yeah. Thank you so much for mentioning expectations. Because I think sometimes we hold the bar so low for certain kids that we’re not doing them. Any favors and I think the more you hold the bar, high, not in like, you have to do this like with super pressure, but more around, like, I see the best version of you.

I see it. I see you in the best version of you whether you choose to attain it or not, that’s entirely your choice, but I see it within you. And I think that helps young people

Kara: because maybe like you said, they’ve not heard that, you know, they’ve not had anyone truly believe in them or tell them that they’re great or that they can achieve these things.

And it’s like, here’s a space where. Even, you know, little Johnny, who’s known for getting in trouble, who’s known for getting bad [00:37:00] grades, he can excel here. He can really rise up and look like a true leader in this space. And so I really always try to encourage them to like, you know, take that on to class.

You know, when you’re feeling some, you know, get your anchors, you can do that at your seat. You don’t have to bother anybody. And so I am always like just preaching to them. Like it’s those little small actions, you know, it goes a long way.

Gissele overdub: Yeah, definitely. Yeah, for sure. And I also wanted to mention the importance of play and fun because

So one of the things that I was taught was really that the school system isn’t about fun. It’s about responsibility and seriousness. And, and so the fun is gonna get taught out of us, right?

We have to be responsible and we have to be like serious and we have to just sit there. And so, I love that you are reintegrating the whole play aspect and fun aspect of it, because I think that’s so important for kids. That really resonates with them [00:38:00] because schools be boring. I don’t know about your schools, but our schools are.

tres boring. my kids they’re like, they don’t, they’re not motivated.

They’re not inspired to go. And so these systems are not really that inspirational. So I applaud you for that.

Kara: So, yeah, you know, school has always been preached, like, you know, it’s, it’s, it’s serious business, you know, and we go to school to learn and we’re not here to play, you know, teachers will say that we’re not here to play. But I’m a firm believer that we are here to play. And the more you incorporate the play, the more they will love what you’re doing.

And so you can do that with math. You can do that with reading. You can really do that with any subject.

so let me tell you, I have days where I do what’s called stations.

Okay. And so they’ll come in and there might be like, Toys and Legos and just different things. Well, I have this dress up station. Okay. And it’s got like costumes, but more like, you know, like doctor [00:39:00] jacket, nurse, you know, football player jerseys and just different like jobs. And I always think that it’s like for my little kids, but one day I left them out all day and I did, and I see every grade every day.

So, you know, I’m seeing kindergarten all the way to fifth. So I left it out for my fifth graders. And in my mind, I was like, Oh, they’re going to roll their eyes. They’re going to be like, why does she have this stuff out? They were so excited. And I mean, they were dressing, they were putting on over. I was shocked just.

And it, it made me realize like, these are still, they are kids at the end of the day, their children. I don’t care how big they are. They’re still children and they still love to play and they love to have fun and they love to pretend.

And in that moment, that’s when I realized like everything I do can be, can go from kindergarten all the way to fifth because those kids love to play too. And they like to dress up and do those fun things that they really don’t ever get to do. Yeah. [00:40:00] So yeah, I totally agree that play needs to be brought back.

I am literally working on a brand new first year teacher. She struggled last year. She was a secondary teacher. So of course there was a lot of conflict, but she asked me because I think she was always so surprised when she would come pick her kids up that I wasn’t having behavior problems and she’s like, Oh, this one’s not acting up and I’m like, no, they were fine.

And she’s like, well, why are they like that for you? So I told her like, you know, you’ve got to learn how to incorporate fun. but that’s what she’s been taught. You know, she’s a great teacher, but I told her that this year she and I are going to sit down so I can really help her figure out, you know, how can you tie in fun things?

Because when you have the fun, they’ll do what you want them to do because they want to have fun. And so you have to learn how to tie it all together and make the learning fun. Don’t make it. Boring.

Gissele overdub: Yeah.

Kara: I’m preaching that this year. Yeah,

Gissele overdub: for sure. That’s, that’s great. And, and it’s so great that you’re willing to help your colleague out so that she can [00:41:00] get the best outcomes and the kids can get the best outcome.

So that’s, that’s also very compassionate and community based. I just have a couple of more questions. I’m asking all of my guests what their definition of unconditional love is. Oh,

Kara: that’s something I actually think about, you know, because to me, you know, we love people in all different parts of our lives, but that unconditional love is, Like, no matter what you do, or what you say, or how you behave, I love you just the same.

So, for me, it’s really about, and this is something that I feel the Compassionate Schools Project has really taught me. Me because let me tell you, my journey as a teacher has definitely changed. I have changed. I mean, just how I approach teaching, how I approach relationships with other people.[00:42:00]

It’s all changed because of this program, because the more I got into it and the more I really understood that I needed my own practice, like my own personal practice in order to really be the best mindfulness teacher for my kids. I love to journal.

There’s just certain things that I do with my day to kind of set me up for success. It has really allowed me to learn not to take things personal. And I think once I’ve removed myself and there’s no room for like, like whatever anyone says to me, I’m not making it about me. You know, I’m looking at them thinking, Hmm, wonder why she said that, you know, and it never is anything that knocks me off or really gets me upset.

But it makes me just realize, like, how many people are out here hurting, you know, and like, I go to work every day and I’m probably one of the very few people that like, I come in with a smile on my face pretty much every day. And I tell my coworkers, like, I love my job. Like, I’m, I’m so glad, I’m glad to be here.

I’m grateful to be here. I literally take [00:43:00] gratitude into every class session that I have. I tell the kids, like, I’m grateful for you, you know, and that sense of gratitude. It kind of just like brings the love out of you, you know, so I have just learned over time that in. Really loving someone and loving them unconditionally.

It is really about not taking things personal. And then no matter what is happening, I’m still operating with you from a place of love, because that’s who I am. You know, I embody love. I embody the joy. I bring that so that I can share that with you. I like try to just be a beacon of sunshine. And that’s what I tell them.

I’m here to be the sunshine. And so what do you need today? I do this with the adult and the kids, which I also think is why I have really good relationships with the teachers. So like when I need something, or if I’m asking teachers to join in on something, they are much more likely to do so [00:44:00] because they already have a relationship with me.

And so like that what’s happening with that second grade teacher, that’s literally my natural inclination is to like, Oh, let me help her, you know, I want to show her because. Nobody else is doing it. And so we can’t expect a brand new teacher to come into an environment like ours, where it’s, it is a struggle.

I mean, the kids are, it is rough. And if you’re not prepared, you will drown. I mean, you just will. And I’ve seen it happen. So I really am a person who believes in just operating from that place of joy. And, oh, let me help you. Oh, you need that. I’m here. Let me help you with that. And it’s good. I can do that because I am an itinerant teacher.

So I don’t have the same. pressures the same responsibilities that the classroom teachers do. So I really feel, and sometimes they’re jealous of that, you know, they’re like, you’re so lucky. And I’m like, you can do this too. There’s plenty of jobs to do this. So, you know, it just gives me an opportunity to just kind of, you know, see what everyone is needing, not just the [00:45:00] kids, but what is it, what is anybody needing?

Let me help you

Gissele overdub: Yeah. for sharing that. That’s a great definition of love. It’s wonderful. Last question is where can people find you or find more information about the compassionate school project? What do you want to share with the, with the audience? Anything that you want to share, please share now.

Kara: Well, you know, clearly you can find me at Ingleheart elementary school in Louisville, Kentucky. CSP found here: link

I’m always open to classroom visits. I have had visits from so many people, literally the surgeon general for president Obama came to my classroom to watch me teach. Oh my gosh. Amazing.

Like I am always open to people who want to see this program in action. I have an open door policy. Come in, join in, have a seat. See whatever you like, you know, and it’s great. In terms of that, I am, I am being very intentional this year about getting my social media presence going. So be [00:46:00] on the lookout for hopefully a Tik TOK channel with the Engelhardt So that is my goal for this year. Cause I was thinking like, how can I reach families? And unfortunately, JCP has had a lot of transportation issues and the schedule has changed. We don’t start school till 9 40 in the morning and we get out at almost 5 PM in the afternoon. It is terrible! So in terms of engagement, that piece is missing now because we can get out so late.

You can’t expect parents and families to come right back, you know, 30 minutes and half the time the kids don’t get home till six, six 30. They’re not coming back to school five o’clock for a program. So my goal is to really make it virtual and share tips online. So as soon as I get that going, I will be sure to contact you.

Just say, Oh, yes,

Gissele overdub: of course. Yes, we can put it. Cause I transcribed the interviews and so we can add all the links right there. So yes, please. And I also want to tag [00:47:00] you. So, and just because I, I like you, so I would love to follow your journey. That’s a, that’s amazing.

Kara: I appreciate that.

Gissele overdub: Yeah. Thank you so, so much for being on the show and sharing your wisdom with all of us.

We really appreciate it. Please continue to update us on the amazing work that you are doing. And I thank you all for joining us for another episode of the love and compassion podcast with Gissele. Have a

Kara: good day. Have a good one.

Gissele Taraba: [00:00:00]

 Hello. And welcome to the love and compassion podcast with Gissele.

We believe that love and compassion have the power to heal our lives and our world. Don’t forget to like, and subscribe for more amazing content. Today, we’re going to talk about people pleasing and how compassion can help us address those needs.

 Today I’m talking with Tina O Hoang, who is a disabled recovering people, pleaser and podcaster.

She strives to ensure women have the space to choose themselves and to share their courageous stories. Whether it be changing how They’re perceived within a family dynamic, leaving a comfortable nine to five or advocating for themselves. She believes that women of color are allowed to take the first step and don’t need permission to do so.

After someone told her that her passivity was unattractive, she took it and decided to become as assertive and courageous as she could ever be. With a master’s [00:01:00] degree in career counseling, Tina also understands the hardship of career changes

She knows that even when we’re scared of making the first step, we need to just say F it and do it anyways.

Please join me in welcoming Tina. Hi Tina. Hi Giselle. Yay. Thank you for having me. Oh no, thank you for being on the show. Let’s talk people pleasing. As a person who is the complete opposite, because I didn’t feel loved or accepted, I just went, screw it. I’m just going to do what I can.

And I was so confrontational. So if you could share a little bit with me about how the opposite feels, the people pleasing and what got you to be in that state.

Tina Juan: Yeah. So I think for the longest time, I think honestly, like, My feeling like how you are, it was deep inside me this whole time.

F everything..

I don’t care about it. I just want to do everything. But somehow, I think maybe within my own culture, family is important. [00:02:00] Because in my culture, whatever you do as a child reflects to your parents and people blame. My parents, if I were to act differently, so like if I went to act out and just like screw everything, you know, do all the bad things you could think of, there’s like, Oh, is your mom’s fault?

That’s why she can’t raise you. Right. Or is your dad’s fault? They, he didn’t know how to discipline you in the right way. And so everything goes back to my parents and. You know, growing up too is honestly, first few things I remember of making sure my mom was always happy. I think that’s like the main thing for me is like,we grew up in a single household, and she was always, she was working double shift every single day, like seven days a week.

She was, she was a business owner, and the fact that, um, the fact that she [00:03:00] would leave work for like, for lunch. Come over, come to school, hang out with me and my brother, and then go back to school and then go back to work. Yeah, and so, you know, so there was this, so there was this, um, precedent of mom is making all these sacrifices for us.

 as a single mom, I need to make sure that whatever she does is makes her happy.

Gissele Taraba: Yeah,

Tina Juan: and also need her to accept me as a person because she’s because I think in the ages around, I think the primal age is like zero to seven.

That’s where like, Okay. You really need your parents around that time, she was working, you know, and that gravitation of like, I need people to love me, I need people to like me, if they don’t, then if I don’t act a certain way, they’ll leave, they’ll leave me forever. And so that kind of that grew the notion of like, [00:04:00] pleasing people pleasing all this time.

Making sure that whoever and whoever, anyone is around me is okay. And then also that comes into like, being responsible for other people all the time. I get so mad sometimes because we’re not responsible for other people’s feelings. Only our own.

Gissele Taraba: Yeah.

Tina Juan: I tend to also like, monitor, emotional monitor other people around me all the time.

I saw my brain is working 24 seven. It doesn’t take a break. that’s a lot of energy taking out of me where I could have using the energy to focus on myself.

Gissele Taraba: Yeah, yeah. Thank you for sharing that. As you were talking, it made me really think about how similar we were, even though I originally thought we had a different perspective, uh, because I also felt the same way in terms of wanting to protect my mother in particular for her to be happy.

But then I [00:05:00] discovered very early that that didn’t work. And so then I took the opposite approach of like saying, screw you. Like, if you say up, I use, I sit down. If you say white, I say black, like complete opposite, but the needs were the same, the need to be loved, to accept it, to take care of, I still had those.

I just didn’t feel I was very successful in, in meeting their needs. And so if I’m playing a losing battle, why bother? Um, but I, as you were talking, I resonated so much with what you were saying, because I remember having those same feelings. Um, and so even though we’re coming at it from a different approach, the feelings are the same.

When did you discover you were actually a people pleaser? Like, was it after that comment or was it something that came in layers?

Tina Juan: I think it came in layers like I knew I was a people pleaser, but then like, it never came to fruition until that comment,

because

even after that comment, I then I asked all my friends, [00:06:00] my, some of my closest friends, I was asking them, Hey, am I passive?

Am I passive? Am I passive? And all of them said, Yes, you are.

And I’m like, oh my goodness. and you know, even the notion you were saying about, Like, getting, feeling accepted and feeling loved by your parents, and I did have a raging component in there too, like, where my mom tells me I’m always stubborn.

Gissele Taraba: The

Tina Juan: term called, we call it, like, she say, this is literally, like, why are you so stubborn?

She would say, that’s how I’m gonna lead, right? That’s how I’m gonna lead. Which is like, why are you so stubborn? Or like, I’m like, that is why, like, that is why I’m stubborn. Cause my inner self, she’s trying to get out and say, this is what I want. This is what I need whenever I ask for something. Because my mom’s in a sense of like, I’m doing.

I know what’s [00:07:00] best for you.

Gissele Taraba: Yeah.

And as you mentioned, you know, culture plays such a big role in it because, you know, as a parent now, you know, thinking about what you said to be blamed for my kids behaviors. I mean, I have no control over, I mean, my husband and I have hopefully taught these kids all of the important values.

But at the end of the day, they’re going to choose how they live their life and they have the right to. But for me then to be judged on my kids behavior that must be really difficult. And hence why parents Control, right? Like try to control their kids behavior and it sort of creates this endless cycle.

Um, it makes it, it makes parenting really hard, right? At what point did you just decide and say, you know what? Like, I, I really can’t be responsible for my. Parents happiness,

Tina Juan: that is still a work in progress. Like, right now.

Yeah,

Gissele Taraba: yeah, that’s fair.

Tina Juan: Yeah. But then it’s still [00:08:00] it, but then at the same time, it’s gotten a lot better since then it’s been about. Five year 2019 that’s when the comment came in of like my passivity was unattractive. the first thing action I did was asking my mom to not ever open my mail.

So that was like the first hurdle of like, I would whenever she tried to open else I find make it to make her keep her happy like I don’t like it. But she’s concerned, I don’t want to ruffle, I don’t want to ruffle the feathers. So that was where it start, you know, accumulating since then.

Gissele Taraba: What was the response?

Tina Juan: Lash out. Really? She didn’t understand it. I mean, I understand where she was coming from, from that moment, just, you know, worry and making sure that we are okay, that if there’s a, if there’s an important mail that we can get, we can get to it right away because I, I don’t live with her. So sometimes just certain mails that comes to her house.

I just get it later. [00:09:00] And so, but yeah, it wasn’t a good reaction at all. And still, there’s some moments I just have to pick my battles, you know, like she still does it. Till today, since then, and I’m just like, you know what? It’s like, I don’t want to put more energy than I already did.

Gissele Taraba: Yeah. It’s the same with kids, right?

Like you, you kind of have to, you do have to pick your battles in terms of like, it’s like a baby step at a time, right? good for you for at least sharing that perspective. I can only imagine as a single parent, it must have been challenging to make sure that your kids were okay. Right.

And it must feel scary to, especially if I don’t know if she has a relationship or not, it must feel. feel scary to let go of that need to mother, uh, especially if that was your whole identity. Um, how has this influenced your desire to be a parent or not?

Tina Juan: well, I’ve chosen to be a pet mom instead of an actual human.

Gissele Taraba: [00:10:00] Nice. Pets are awesome. Yeah.

Tina Juan: So that, so that kind of influenced. Well. Cool. In a way that did influence me, but overall there’s more responsibility in taking care of a human versus like a pet. So I prefer to put my energy on that, like I have two cats right now and I love them to death.

As

regards a human, I’m okay.

Me and my partner, we’re both, we’re both okay not having children. And so, and we’re okay with that as well too, but there was some influence, but not as much.

Gissele Taraba: I think that’s a very Brave choice. Now, you have the right to change your mind or to keep yourself as a, as a personal lifestyle choice. Um, but it’s so amazing how women in particular are expected to play this mother role.

You have to have children. That’s like your be all And so when people decide to not have children, there’s this real power. Backlash that people face. Um, I don’t [00:11:00] know if you experienced it, but I remember as soon as I got married, there was expectations like, okay, when are you going to have children?

When are you going to have children? And it’s like, exactly. But you would think with the amount of pressure that women face to be mothers, that mothers would be kept up here, but there is so much. Backlash you never doing it right. so you would think that that would be a role that would be elevated as, as high as, um, I don’t know, athletes, but it’s not, it’s not, it’s.

Difficult to have children in this and I’m not talking physically. I’m talking emotionally because like you said, it’s like your heart, you give them all your heart and love and you, and eventually they’ve got to fly the coop and that’s their right. And they got a right to live their life. And so you do feel fear for them.

You feel love, you feel all of these things. Um, and so it, it’s as much as, as rewarding as it is. It can also feel really challenging at times, especially when they struggle. Yeah. Oh,

Tina Juan: right. I mean, like, because even me [00:12:00] as like a pet mom too, like I recently lost my dog in January. Oh,

Gissele Taraba: I’m so sorry.

Tina Juan: No, it’s okay.

Thank you. Appreciate it. Like he, I, I had him for 14 years. So he’s, he’s 14. it’s still kind of fresh here and there, but the, I feel like that’s the same thing. Like you’re losing a part of your heart. Yeah, I’m losing someone and then it’s the same thing as having, I feel like there’s no difference of having a human child versus a dog.

Gissele Taraba: I have both. I have a, a 12 year old baby, which I call my 12 year old, uh, Doberman Shepard. Yeah. And he’s my baby and he’s never going to die.

That’s it. That’s why people ask me how old he is and they’re people like, Oh, how old is your dog? I’m like, he’s 12 and he’s never going to die. So I like, I don’t even engage in the conversation.

I’m like, Nope. Nope. Yes. Never ever. Yeah. That’s right. Yeah.

Um, I wanted to talk a little bit about [00:13:00] this 4B movement that’s happening. I believe in South Korea, I don’t know if it’s a hundred percent correct. And I had seen this on Tik Tok and I was really interested because, you know, some people say, well, it’s not as big as people are making it out, but it’s really catching fire in terms in the Tik Tok community, because from what I’ve learned is like a group of women that have to say Now Let me back up in South Korea has one of the lowest or the lowest birth rates.

So right now, yeah, babies are not being like, they’re just not being born. And so the government is really worried about like, but what’s happening? Like, we’re going to have a whole bunch of old people. I know young people to take care of them. And, one of the reasons that has come out, um, is that there is this, I don’t know if it’s small or large, There’s this group of women who have decided it’s called the four B movement to never to not marry and not have children that just decided this is not [00:14:00] the life I’m going to lead.

This is not what I’m going to do. And this is very much against convention. And all of these North American women are like, oh, my God, what a good decision. Take our power back. Because women have historically, we have suffered from gender issues in terms of wages, you know, like facing rape, abuse, all of these things.

And I believe that people are seeing this 4 B movement is women taking their power back and making a choice. What are your thoughts?

Tina Juan: Oh, no, I agree on that because I’ve always hear people, you know, saying like, are we as women are just a vessel for to produce, you know, and just to only abide to other people.

People, and so I really, oh my gosh, Barbie, that’s like kind of my route to because eventually I, my partner even thought about not even getting married like we’re okay not getting married like we’re both agreeing on it. Well, I think I decided like thinking like, yeah, I’m cool with that too. So, it’s kind of like, you know, it’s [00:15:00] kind of.

Amazing that there are women, at least in South Korea, they’re standing for themselves and empowering themselves, like putting the foot down, like, no means no. We’re not, we don’t want to do this. We don’t want to have kids. We don’t want to get married. You can’t make us. Because we are our own person. So I love that.

I love that so much.

Gissele Taraba: And I think, you know, going back to the whole people pleasing, that really goes against convention and it really goes against the expectation of, well, like if you’re not there for that, then what’s your purpose. Right. And it makes me think of the women’s suffrage movement. There was a time before women got the vote where they, they literally stopped society.

They, they stopped going to work. They stopped cleaning. They stopped. Cooking, right. And now in our today’s world, it’s much more balanced. Like my dad, my husband has all does all of the cooking. Like my dad used to do all the cooking as well. Like, so we kind of have like, uh, a different relationship in the sense of it’s not traditionally [00:16:00] male, traditionally female.

 but many families still have that traditional role. And so it’s interesting to see how women across the globe are really gravitating towards that. And I’m not saying that’s the answer. I mean, you’re in a relationship, as you mentioned, you’re just not making the choices that have historically been made.

We are rethinking, I mean, traditional conventions. And I think that’s kind of the, the epitome of non people pleasing. Wouldn’t you say?

Tina Juan: Oh, no, it took, actually. Now you’re saying it. Thank you. I didn’t realize that because like, for the longest time, I guess, for me, when I think of like people pleasing, I think of like, not saying no, like verbally, not saying no, always saying yes to people saying yes to that.

Everything that people ask of you always say yes. But I didn’t think about that of like, no to having [00:17:00] kids, no to having getting married or just certain things that I don’t abide to. That’s not attained to people pleasing, because

Gissele Taraba: It goes against the grain, it goes against the norms and it makes people really uncomfortable because, and I think that’s, that’s where people are really having an emotional reaction to that, you know, and I always say that, you know, I noticed someone else sometimes is a yes to myself, right?

So, sometimes when I’m very honest about when I don’t want something, it’s because I’m saying yes to me, yes to me. Putting my boundaries. Yes, to me, not doing something I don’t want to do. Um, but you know, like, I don’t normally struggle with that except my kids. My kids just like, sometimes when they’re like, they like, they keep going and going.

I’m like, oh, okay. And so that’s where I’m like, okay, so maybe I’m not as. Clear my boundaries as it comes to when it comes to my kids, you know, I don’t know what [00:18:00] it is about them. It’s just, I think I, I, it’s that element of wanting to make, to see them happy. But that doesn’t always equal their happiness, right?

Like you mentioned,

Tina Juan: right? Yeah. Cause every time our kids, my pets, they want something different. Like I just want to, all I want to do with my cats is just smother them with love, like hold them. And then you’re like, Oh my God, like, I know their faces, like, get away from me, like cats in particular

Gissele Taraba: must be like, Oh, even my dog too.

I do the same thing. And my dog’s like, I make my dog uncomfortable and unconditionally loving

my dog’s like, Oh, when is this going to be done? Okay. There’s

Tina Juan: a dog too. My dog where he would like, uh, he would growl at me cause he knows a certain like, you know, they know what’s going to come after. Cause like, I, I’m a very petite person, but then like, I project strong emotions.

So that’s also something to recently too, is me not caring anymore. Cause I have so much energy as a person, like positive, either way, like [00:19:00] positive, negative energy, like very intense energy. Some growing up, I was told to just tame it. Like calm down, relax. And so I would always keep check of like how much energy am I putting out?

It’s best to be small. It’s best to shrink as a people pleaser. It’s best to do that. But now I’m. letting myself air out being more playful, being more like energetic and just like play and not caring at all. And yeah, it just feels like, and that’s why I’m able to love my, my babies. My girl is more often because I’m

exuding all that energy, you know, they’re like, Oh my gosh, too much.

Gissele Taraba: And thank you for mentioning that, because that’s another aspect of people pleasing as well as asking people to extinguish their light so that they can be average so that they don’t trigger other people in showing their light. And so I think that’s allowing ourselves to do that is another aspect of people pleasing.[00:20:00]

Um, and one that maybe isn’t probably as common, like you mentioned, it’s like always saying. Yes. And never saying no, but extinguishing our own light for other people to please them is an aspect of people pleasing. No, it

Tina Juan: is. And yeah,

Gissele Taraba: I wanted to know, so what helped you shift from that to one where you say F-it, I’m doing it anyways, what helped you shift where some of the things that you did that really kind of said, even if it’s like evolving, what are some of the things that really helped you go from that?

 people pleasing to one of like, I’m going to step up into my power and doing it anyways, even if I’m afraid.

Tina Juan: Yeah, I, um, so after that comment, right, the passivity was unattractive. The first thing I did was, well, first thing I did was cry like a bunch. I cried and cried. And then eventually I kinda just sat with it Cause I had two [00:21:00] decisions, Right, two decisions of like agreeing that I will forever like forever be existence of people pleaser.

This is my route. This is my existence to be alive right now is to make other people be more important than me. Right. And the other decision was. Yeah, like you said, fuck it. No, that’s not me. I’m not that person. Um, I know I want to be assertive. I want to do it. And so right after that, too, was I did was a lot of journaling, having a very quick call with a counselor.

So as a resource where you talk to a counselor, very quickly, just briefly on what you are feeling. So it’s not like the suicide line, Whereas like, you know, like you’re boiling, like the analogy, the water is boiling, but the water is simmering and you’re just feeling some type of way, but you just want to let it out.

Gissele Taraba: Yeah. And what, what did you call it? The warm line?

Tina Juan: Yeah. The warm line. They have [00:22:00] each, each state has their own.

Gissele Taraba: Oh, I didn’t know that. Wow. That’s fascinating. That’s really supportive. That’s amazing. Go ahead. Sorry.

Tina Juan: I recommend all your listeners to, like, use the warm line for anyone to use it, because it really helped me get through that, that, not, it’s not really that dark, but just like that really muddy time for me to figure out where I want to be in life, you know, in regards of the people.

Pleasing. And then over time with that to my self awareness came about one with like going through graduate school and journaling and reading my inner child came was more like in my face when there’s a certain something going on and I see her I’m like, Oh, Okay, what do I do now?

Because, I call her tiny Tina, even though we’re the same height, we have not, we have not grown at all. That’s hilarious.

Gissele Taraba: Yeah. Yeah. Tiny [00:23:00] Tina. Yep.

Tina Juan: So like tiny Tina, she’s like, she’s at the ripe age of 15 and that’s where my inner child is. So whenever there’s something going on and I don’t want to do something, she starts getting anxious.

And so I see her sometimes. Of like bashing herself or like anxiety going back and forth, making sure that we need to please the people around her at all times.

Gissele Taraba: Yeah.

Tina Juan: And so I really had to sit down with her multiple times and telling her like, you’re okay, you’re safe.

Gissele Taraba: Yeah.

Tina Juan: You don’t have to do that. You don’t have to do what other people want.

What do you want? And just sitting with her with it. And sometimes she understands at the level that the intellectual level that she is a 15. She’s she understands. And there are other times where she gets the best like she has more energy, where, [00:24:00] where, which means that her stubbornness comes into play.

Gissele Taraba: And

Tina Juan: then I, so like sitting down and sitting with her and being compassionate with her, sometimes it doesn’t actually work. So I just have to be like, not the mean parent, but like, I see you, honey, I see you, but just sit your ass down. We’re going to do this. We’re going to do it anyways. And just come with me.

Like, you’re safe. I think that’s also like, she’s still scared and anxious, but I’m still giving her compassion. And at the top of that, it’s like the firmness of the age I am now. Just sit with me. You’re fine. Just sit down. Yeah. Like it’s not that I’m leaving her behind. She’s still here with me. I’m just like, okay, just sit down with me.

Gissele Taraba: Yeah. Yeah. And you’re helping her feel that in, in sort of dip her toe in into that safety, right? Um, and I love that you mentioned compassion and I love that you mentioned the inner child healing. Um, just as a strategy I [00:25:00] myself have used, uh, to feel safe for the longest time I didn’t feel safe. And so I have really had to reparent myself around feelings of safety.

Um, but sometimes it just feels so strong, those feelings of fear, right? And so to say, you know, you are safe, I got you. You’re okay. I got you. I think it’s really, really powerful, really powerful.

Tina Juan: It is. And it is also really fun to, to kind of see the thing that West. It’s like, it’s like real time right now.

It’s like seeing how much she trusts me now than when I first started because there was a constant, the battle would be for days in the beginning of like, I really want to do this. I really want to do that. No, no, don’t do that. Mom’s going to get mad. People are going to get mad. Whoever is going to love

Gissele Taraba: you.

Tina Juan: Yeah, or like you anymore. But now she’s like, okay, I got okay. I’m still scared. But I know you’re you keep me safe. And also like what I’ve [00:26:00] learned recently to go to therapy as well, is I didn’t realize there’s the bot my mental compassion, like mental compassion versus body compassion, in the sense of like, telling her like, you’re safe, you’re, you’re know, it’s gonna hurt you that you’re going to be your own person.

All the affirmations, but I forget to, to soothe my body because her body is feeling tense because of all that. And so now that what I do for me is like squeezing my arms, squeezing my legs, just giving that sense of hugging her. Hey, you’re here. You’re safe. Like, and then, then my body starts to relax more and then I’m more straightforward, but yeah, it’s a, it was.

It’s still, of course, I don’t think we’ll ever go away where I’ll have my inner child just banging at me at the door. It’s like, get me out of here. I don’t want to be here. I don’t want [00:27:00] to think. It’s like, you can’t do this. Can’t do that. No. You know, but just letting her know like, hey, you’re good. You’re good.

I’m here. I’m here with you. Let’s hold hands. And I literally hold my hand, like my right hand. Also, also a quick note too, like I grew up having a disability. So my right hand, um, I have cerebral palsy. So my right hand, it’s. It’s affected. So there is, you know, some limitations to it. So I utilize that as my, my younger self.

And then my left hand is like, not affected. So half of my body is affected. My left side is good. My right side affected. So I would hold hands with her, hold my, hold my hands. And she’s like, I got you you’re safe. And then she’s saying, yeah. And so I love that.

Gissele Taraba: Yeah, I absolutely love that. Um, and what you said is really so powerful and so important.

So I want my listeners to, Don’t take a note of it because that physical component is so important as we [00:28:00] saw in COVID people were so separate, they couldn’t touch one another. There was, there was so much isolation. And like you mentioned in compassion practice, there’s the touching of the chest, you know, like you put your hand on your heart or on your leg, or you can, you know, like rub your shoulder.

And what it does is releases oxytocin. And so we can do that for ourselves if we don’t have anyone to do that for us. And it does kind of soothe that it’s, it’s like physical touch is so important. So when you can’t get your mind in order, you can do that physical touch. And that’s like, it’s a great strategy for people to use to be able to bring themselves back.

And I love that you are able to offer that to yourself as if you’re two different people, but it’s, it’s, it’s just one you, but the fact that you’re able to hold your own hand and be there for yourself is so powerful and so important because people don’t realize that they can do that. They always think, Oh, it has to be external.

Somebody has to love me externally outside of me. Um, [00:29:00] I wonder what your thoughts are about, like, you know, people pleasing and all of those sort of behaviors. Ultimately, it’s about us wanting to be loved, right? Part of about that self love, um, did you feel was really in need when you were people pleasing?

Tina Juan: To accept me for who I am, really, that’s where it is. It’s like I said earlier, I have a lot of energy, really big energy, like just I just last week I went to the beach with my partner and he he’s more of the grounded type so he’s walking. For me, I was like bouncing everywhere going in the water, out the water, outside the water, jumping into the sand.

Throwing up sand, throwing up water, like, just like being a kid again, you know, being really playful and just enjoying myself with the energy that I can encapsulate. I have so much energy, like, I have a [00:30:00] very small, I’m only five foot, five feet. And so I just, you know, You know, just accepting me as me that’s like the big component for me.

It’s like, can you hold my energy if I let it out? Like, can you hold that space for me to give my energy out, you know? And then, right. Thankfully. And I love it that my partner can hold that whenever I exude it, like he can’t, he can’t go to that level of course, but he’s okay. But he puts his glasses

Gissele Taraba: on for the wattage, right?

He puts his glasses on. He’s like, lets you shine bright. Right.

Tina Juan: Yes, and just like yes, yes, and so yeah, yeah, so it’s just like that is accepting me as me and not trying to mold me into taming, dimming, diminishing my energy of what I can take because I can run like a freaking mouse

going on a wheel.

Gissele Taraba: And [00:31:00] then that’s awesome to have that much energy. It’s, it’s amazing. It’s amazing. one of the things you mentioned, um, is that, you know, sometimes you have fear in stepping forward and shining your light fully. How did you deal with that fear? That’s those fears that sometimes come up.

Tina Juan: I only when I’m exhausted, like I’m tired of going through that motion all the time, the fear going, and I literally, I literally just say, like, just fuck it, I’m just gonna do it.

I’m just gonna do it. I’m like, I’m tired. I’m tired. Like, that’s where the when the I’m so tired of fear running through my mind

Gissele Taraba: So

Tina Juan: yeah, so I think for me, I just put myself into like exhaustion and then I’m like, okay, well, I’m doing it. And then here I am. And I was like, I just did it. Awesome. Why didn’t I, why did it take so long?

Gissele Taraba: Is it terrifying in the moment,

in the moment when you’re doing it?

Is there, what helps you get through [00:32:00] that fear in the moment?

Tina Juan: In the moment? No, I don’t. I just like, oh. Cool. I just did it. And then the fear comes back. Okay.

Gissele Taraba: But then you’re like, but I just did it.

So you’re okay.

Tina Juan: Yeah. Like the action just is done. The action is done. But then now the fear comes back of like perfectionism and that’s where it’s like, Oh dang, did I just, did it look good?

I don’t know. And so that, then the fear comes in and I have to do the whole cycle again.

Gissele Taraba: Yeah. Yeah. Perfectionism. People pleaser’s ugly cousin. Yes. So

Tina Juan: ugly.

Gissele Taraba: So, so terrible. I don’t even know where we got this concept that we had to be perfect. That you know, like it’s just, it’s such a disservice. We’re all perfectly imperfect and that’s what makes us all beautiful and different.

Um, what role did perfectionism have in your life in terms of the, how it influenced the people pleasing? Oh,

Tina Juan: it stopped me [00:33:00] from doing things that really made me happy. For example, so dancing is like one of the things I loved.

It makes me so happy when I dance. It doesn’t matter how it is. It’s, if you get my body moving, I feel my body feeling lighter. Like it’s one of those things where I’m not thinking of anything, but. Myself in that moment of freedom, happiness, joy, and the perfection came into it was when I was younger, we were like in a church group, and they had like a auditions for dancing like being like dancing for Lunar New Year.

Gissele Taraba: Yeah,

Tina Juan: because of my disability, I decided I can’t do that I can’t perfect the dances because of my disability like it’s going to be wonky it’s going to look a certain way. Okay. And so I just been simmering on it. Like I have to be perfect. I have to be perfect in this dances. And if I don’t do it, then I can’t do it.

And so I ended [00:34:00] up not doing it. And I regret doing that because of my perfectionism coming in. It was like, it has to be perfect if I do it and I can’t do it because of my disability, then it’s best for me to just step away and not do it. And so it’s just like, Yeah, it’s one of those things where it’s just annoying for me looking back, but then also reminding myself that I can start today.

Gissele Taraba: Yeah.

Tina Juan: Just dance again.

Gissele Taraba: Yeah.

Tina Juan: Yeah. Just have fun. Just enjoy myself.

Gissele Taraba: Yeah. Did you, uh, ever experience the need to have to forgive yourself for some of the choices you made or didn’t make?

Tina Juan: Hell yeah. All the time. Can you talk a little bit about

Gissele Taraba: that? Oh

Tina Juan: as I was saying earlier, my inner child is 15 years old, right? Yeah. So there’s already that huge concept of when you’re in high school, your first impression is first key, the first thing, like, yeah, for sure. [00:35:00] Yeah. Right. And so she still has that concept. She still has that mindset of it.

And so there are times when there are easier things that are not the core, like my onion thing of an onion, like anything that’s like really close, like to the core, I still haven’t forgiven myself yet. Like, things that really are my core values, my core beliefs, I still haven’t forgiven myself for the decisions I made for those, like, for example, the dancing, like, dancing is one of my core beliefs of what brings me joy and happiness, like, I can still dance today, but I regret not doing that when I was, I think I was 12 or 13 years old, I regret not doing that because I could have been a dancer today, you know, like short showcasing what is like to be a dancer and also have a disability at a young age, because when you’re dancing, you’re younger and you’re dancing like you have more flexibility, [00:36:00] more room to like really try out different moves.

I’m in my 30s, I still can do it, but then it’s just different if you were younger and trying it. But then, like, if it were to be closer to the outer layers of my onion, like outside my core values, it’s easier, it’s easier to forgive. Like, eventually, I, like, for example, I didn’t, actually, like, well, today, too, actually, today, I feel guilty because I asked, a woman to price match an item that I saw online that was different from the in the store and I didn’t tell her like, thank you for going through this trouble to doing this.

I was like, thank you for the receipt and then walked away. I was like 10, 10 steps away. I was like, I didn’t turn around. I could have turned around, should have turned around, but then I ended up just kept walking in that I called the worm just before our session about it, [00:37:00] feeling, I don’t know if I can let this go.

Like, it’s so hard to let this go, because it’s going to eat me. It’s like, I didn’t appreciate what she did for me, going through the hard work to price match. And sometimes I’m trying to tell myself that it’s okay, you’re safe.

Gissele Taraba: You

Tina Juan: can learn from it.

Gissele Taraba: Yeah,

Tina Juan: I think also tying with the people pleasing is we tend to take a lot of things personally.

Gissele Taraba: Hmm. Yeah,

Tina Juan: because Yeah. Oh, go ahead. I think you have to say something.

Gissele Taraba: Oh, no, no. I, I, yeah. Like the personalizing part of it. I was just going to ask in terms of like, um, have you ever, have you considered, um, maybe saying that what you wanted to say from an energy perspective, like not physically, but emotionally, like, you know, like the same way [00:38:00] that you hold your hand of your 15 year old.

Um, would you consider like thinking about that same circumstance and just saying it and experiencing it as you would have wanted to experience and getting that opportunity to say it from an energy perspective?

Tina Juan: Um, what do you mean by that? Just like,

Gissele Taraba: what I mean is, so, you know, when you speak to your younger self, right?

Like, technically you’re interacting and you’re soothing some of the old wounds. Yes. One of the things I like to do is that when I experience something that I struggle with, um, for example, or, or I struggle with someone, um, and I can’t speak to them physically, I will speak to them energetically, like spiritually.

So I will actually go into meditative state and then relive that experience in the way that I wanted to experience it. So in your case, it would be like me reliving that and actually. Saying thank you, thank you and sending them that love from [00:39:00] the state of where of that meditated state. Um, so, so that we, um, number 1, it helps me to release it.

Um, because then I’m not stuck in that loop of like, oh, I wish I had. And secondly, it actually surprisingly has. Worked like, it’s very strange. I don’t know exactly how it works, but it’s, it’s worked with me with challenging students. Like, when I’ve had, I’m a prof in contract faculty and when I had a struggle with a student.

Uh, long story short, like they were sending me some angry emails and I was like, you know what? I kind of took a pause and just said, you know, cause I was starting to stress. I was like, starting like, oh my God, do I have to redo this marking? Do I have to talk to the dean? I’m contract faculty. Is this going to impact?

And I was like, you know what? I’m going to stop. What do I want to experience? And I said to myself, I want to experience this working out for me and for the student. It’s working out with ease and grace. First, I’m going to address my own difficult feelings with love, [00:40:00] send myself love and send the student love.

And then I emailed them back and say, why don’t we chat? Like I had previously sent an email explaining it. That wasn’t good enough. I said, why don’t we just do I’m happy to chat with you because you’re important to me. Hoping to make the time to explain and go through absolutely step by step how I came up with this mark.

And I sent that email, went to bed, but went to bed imagining that everything had been sorted out. I don’t hear for a few days and then I get an email saying everything is resolved. No problem. No need to meet. You’re a wonderful teacher, have a wonderful life. And so I’ve had instances where I’ve actually been able to resolve conflict, if you may, this way, like it just from an energy perspective.

Um, so just let me know if you would be interested in trying it. All you’d have to do is just put yourself in a meditative state and relive the event and just basically say, thank you. And in circumstance, let’s see how it goes. Maybe it doesn’t work for you. Maybe it works for you, but if it helps, um, [00:41:00] I know it’s helped me, um, sometimes let go of things because I will get caught in a loop and I’ve had like in the past, I really had bad anxiety and obsessing and panic attacks and so on.

And so I find that doing that helps me let it go and kind of go, Oh, okay. I’ve looked at your thoughts.

Yeah, I’m down for it.We’ll try it out. If it helps, it helps. If it doesn’t, it doesn’t. I, I’m a big believer that, you know, we pick up things from many different people and if it works for us, it works for us or it doesn’t, it doesn’t.

Tina Juan: I think also, I think I’m coming from what you’re saying too. Like, it makes sense. Cause the same time, like you’re really being back. Say, thank you. for, I think that also, like, as you’re talking, I was like, just thank you for doing your best. You know, doing your best of what you could do in that moment.

Yeah,

Gissele Taraba: I love that. Yeah, saying that to yourself. Oh, that’s so beautiful. I wanted to talk about, you’ve been mentioning it a little bit. Um, and you mentioned it, uh, I think in your intro, which is [00:42:00] really about the importance of play. What role has play played really, uh, had in your life and how it has helped you sort of transform.

Tina Juan: Give me a minute because I like, it’s like, it’s just resonating really deep within me because I realized how important play is, how important it is, it is in my life because I just feel like my most authentic self as an adult, you know, it’s, I mean, there’s a difference between as when you’re playing as a kid versus playing as an adult, because, you know, we know when is the right time to play and when is not the right time to play.

And it’s so important. It’s so important for me because it exudes my energy.

Gissele Taraba: It’s

Tina Juan: hand in hand with how much energy I could play. [00:43:00] How, like, you really, like, you see me bouncing off the walls for a good 10 minutes playing and just being goofy. And also one of the things too is that I love making people laugh.

Making people feel at ease. Just like, hey, you’re allowed as an adult, you’re allowed to play. I’ll play with you if you want to, like, I’m cheering you on, I’m supporting you, let’s play, because that’s also the thing what I’ve noticed too as an adult, we forget to play, we forget to be one. But we always love doing.

I love bouncing off the walls all the time and exuding so much energy and just like, and then you know, knowing that I will come down off that ladder and just like, okay, I’m chilled out. It’s like, it’s like, one to 100 for me. But um, That’s kind of where it is for me in regards to play because I want to play as much as I can.

Like one of the things I love going to [00:44:00] is one of those, um, you know, industrial buildings. Sometimes they have like the water spouting out from the ground, like a bunch of them just, you know, for like, Art and whatever. I run, I will want to run through that and then get myself wet. Like, I don’t force put back electronics away so that it doesn’t get wet, but just go into the water and then not caring and just enjoy life.

And then, you know, because we are meant to live fully and wholeheartedly and not be very joyfully. Yeah. Yeah. And it feels I just all I want to do is just the people around me. Just, you know, Especially as adults, like, play as often as you can. Not, don’t tell anyone to tame your light, to break down your light, because It is different, like, my energy is really high, so not everyone can reach my, to my level, but like, reach to your own level of what brings you joy, [00:45:00] and play with that, play as much as you want, like, if you used to play Like you love playing in the dirt.

Go play in the dirt. Who cares? Your feet, your hands are dirty. You can wash it with soap and you’re fine. Do things or like jumping into a pool, even with your clothes on, like you saw something cool. I’m going to go jump into it. Like the pool, for example. And then, or like, like, just like letting, let yourself be free and not be so scared that, Oh, I’m an adult.

I can’t do that. Oh, what do people think of me when I do this? Just do it because. You deserve it. And you want to be happy as an adult and not like specifying like adult because we forget.

Gissele Taraba: Thank you for sharing that. Um, I really resonated with that. I, uh, I know this girl, um, she was in business class with me, so she started a play based business for adults.

Right. So she does that. Yeah. I

Tina Juan: love that.

Gissele Taraba: Yeah. Um, and so I, [00:46:00] I had booked my husband and I kind of like a play section because I wanted to do something for a date. Um, and as I was doing, as we were playing and all that stuff, I realized that I had a lot of those perfectionism in terms of like, so she, at one point she’s like, color outside the line and I’m like, , but it’s gotta look beautiful.

And then like all of those restrictions that we put on play, that it has to look perfect and it has to look right and it ha we have to color inside the line and, and all of those things that limit creativity and limit joy. And so. So thank you for reminding me of that because I see it in my kids. My kids just want to play and they’re fun and they’re not thinking this has to be perfect or this has to be a specific way.

And it’s so, so important to remind each other just to play a little more. Um, and just to let go of all those old stories about like, you were just being silly or immature. Um, and just how important it is. Enjoy. [00:47:00] Yeah.

Tina Juan: Oh, and also like, I want to emphasize, like, I really want to play with women. Yeah.

Especially women, because growing up, you know, where men are allowed to be roughhousing, give no shits, running around not caring, because they’re like, oh, they’re just boys will be boys. That’s like the old saying.

Gissele Taraba: Yeah.

Tina Juan: Yeah. Boys will be boys, but then girls are like, oh, no, you have to be

Gissele Taraba: mature, like,

Tina Juan: We’re told to grow faster. We can’t play. We can’t play in the dirt with the boys. We can’t roughhouse and be all dirty or whatever. I mean, I think nowadays, the generation now, I think it’s gotten, I’m assuming gotten better with like allowing girls to be like, do whatever they want to be.

But I think I think culture also plays a part in this too, because at least in my, in my culture, a lot of Vietnamese, I’m Vietnamese, a lot of Vietnamese women, we don’t play a lot. Like it’s frowned upon to [00:48:00] play Tina, you’re weird. Or like, Tina, you’re annoying because I’m exuding my energy in the way that I know makes me best.

And I just want to emphasize that for women’s they play as much as you want. Really don’t, don’t tame your light I don’t like, don’t play because the guys, your husband, your partners, whoever, like, they’re willing, they’re more allowed to play, like, if you want to play, go play. And I think the biggest part is that, don’t worry about what people think of you.

I think that’s, that’s, I think like, perfectionism is like, there, but I think the part of like, caring what other people think of us is so important. Why we don’t play a lot as adults.

Gissele Taraba: Yeah. Yeah. And as you were talking, I, I remembered what you had said about the sense of responsibility.

Yes.

Like women sometimes have such a huge sense of responsibility.

It’s not responsible to play, it’s not responsible to do that. So, yeah. So thank you for that. Yeah. That’s really powerful. [00:49:00] Right.

Tina Juan: Thank you.

Gissele Taraba: I wanted to ask you a couple more questions. Yeah. The first one is I’m asking everyone on my show, how do you define unconditional love?

Tina Juan: I think I think of a conditional loves like,

this is going to make a lot of people uncomfortable because I’m just refraining from my personal experience. My unconditional love is just smothering your loved ones no matter how they don’t like it. In a way, like mother,

Gissele Taraba: mother. Yeah.

Tina Juan: Yeah. I’m a smother mother. It is like, and I think I got it from my mom too.

She tends to smother us to the most like unconditional love she could give us to. So I think I learned it from her. And so it’s just like. You know, but putting that to like on top of smothering is also like give them so much so much like affirmations, give them compassion, empathy, and holding space for any [00:50:00] everyone around you.

Like, I think that’s the also the biggest part is like holding space. Yes, you can smother but then like there’s a boundary, of course, you should not. Cross all the time when they’re like, get off of me. I don’t want this anymore. Yeah,

Gissele Taraba: exactly. No, you love.

Tina Juan: Yeah. It’s like, but they’re like, you know, just holding space and just.

Gissele Taraba: Yeah. And just, yeah. And just encouraging them to play as adults, as they’re growing up and your friends and family to say, play and play Yeah. Beautiful. So my last question is, where can people find you? Where can they, where’s your website? Where can people work with you?

What are you doing? What do you want to share with the audience?

Tina Juan: Yes. So honestly, right now I have my podcast. So the Courageous Inner Beast is a place where. Women are able to share their courageous stories.

Beautiful.

Can

Gissele Taraba: you tell us just a little bit more about Um, both.

Tina Juan: [00:51:00] Yes. So, like, for the Courageous Inner Beast is just a place for women to share their courageous stories, like, unfiltered and uncensored.

Really just becoming your powerful self and then me holding space for you. Because as we were talking in this whole conversation, we don’t want you to shrink. We don’t want you to like, be small, like, you know, like, If the way you share your story is close to your heart, it’s authentic and honest, and I can feel that from you.

It’s like you’re being your true self and I want to hear more of it. And my personal, my personal curiosity will come out of it and my own reactions come out of it. And so that’s all stories. If you want to feel inspired, feeling that you want to resonate. We just go all for it, you know, cause we’re all, we’re found in like Spotify Apple full and all the little ones that you could find like iHeart, Amazon music.

You have find us all that you want to listen to stories. It’s mainly just stories as the platform, but yeah, please check it out as like, we want you to listen to it and just hear more of it.

Yeah. Oh, [00:52:00] that’s lovely. Yeah.

Thank you so much, Tina, for being with us. It’s been an absolute pleasure. Um, such a great conversation and, uh, please people go check it out and join us again for another episode of the love and compassion podcast with Giselle.

Gissele Taraba: Thank you. Bye bye. Bye, everyone. Thank you.

Gissele Taraba: [00:00:00] on today’s podcast. We’ll be talking about the power of mindfulness to help young children flourish and become their best selves.

I’m speaking to Ali Smith, Atman Smith, and Andres Gonzalez. They have been teaching a social emotional curriculum for over 20 years in Baltimore and now across America. And they have helped over 200, 000 children with their work, their work with their holistic life foundation. Has been been featured on making a difference on the NBC nightly news, CNN and CBS, as well as, Oh, the Oprah magazine, the Washington post up worthy, mindful magazine, yoga journal, Shambhala sun, and many, many more places.

Their book, let your light shine. mindfulness can empower children and rebuild communities has also been featured on. Good morning, America. Please join me in welcoming them to the show. [00:01:00] Hello.

Ali Atman: Hey, how are you?

Gissele Taraba: I’m good. Thank you so much for being on the show. for

Andres Gonzales: having us. Oh,

Gissele Taraba: so much. I think that the work that you’re doing is so impactful, especially for the future of education.

And can you tell the audience a little bit about how you actually got started on this work?

Ali Atman: I guess the start came from My brother and I got introduced to meditation as young kids from our dad. He was into transcendental meditation. So he would get us up in the morning and we would meditate before morning cartoons. And you know, it was meditation. Woody Woodpecker, Scooby Doo.

 Well, actually Scooby Doo, then Woody Woodpecker. Woodpecker. Off the school.

Gissele Taraba: And,

Ali Atman: And self realization fellowship church based on Kria yoga. My dad, our dad got into the practice from our godfather. He was one of those people that got into yoga in the 60s and never ever got out of it. As we got older, I guess, around the time I was in [00:02:00] 4th grade, Atman was in 2nd grade.

Our parents got divorced. And we lost our meditation practice, but as we got older and, you know, like, life happened, we were finishing up college. We were looking for something to do, we met Andy at the University of Maryland, college park, the 3 of us, like, pondering how we’re going to spend the rest of our lives.

And I’d say 2 important things happen 1, our dad sat us down and told us not to go get jobs in the start of business. He was all about entrepreneurship. And not, you know, I mean, it’s like 3 people of color getting caught up in the the world of the corporate world where you hit that glass ceiling when you look a certain way, and you can’t advance beyond that.

Then he also had a lot of friends that were getting fired and losing their pensions and getting downsized after decades of, like faithful work to certain companies that they were working for. So that happened, and then we got back into to yoga talk. Godfather, he was always trying to get us back into it, but we kind of dove deeply into the practice.

And the combination of of that yoga practice from uncle [00:03:00] will, our godfather, the entrepreneurship push. Of of our dad, and then the 3 of our desire to help humanity and the planet to seem like there was a lot of suffering going on and a lot of pain. And a lot of people taking advantage of other people in the environment.

It’s like, it was like that perfect storm. And then like the stars aligned and the holistic life foundation was born.

Gissele Taraba: Oh, amazing. Sounds like your dad was a visionary because when you look at the world of work right now, there’s so much going on. I think that from a larger perspective, larger consciousness, we really are shifting how we do work.

But I think what’s, what an amazing vision. go ahead. Yeah. Go ahead.

Ali Atman: When you were talking about entrepreneurship and I did like. All of his friends thought he was crazy for telling us not to go get jobs because it was like, you know, it’s like, they were like, he paid for private school.

The boys are in college, they both have degrees. You told them not to go get jobs. Like, he’s like, no, no, he didn’t, you know, he was like. He was like, no, I see down the line, like, this is going to be what’s going to serve them and then. Probably like, 15 years into it, like, all of his [00:04:00] friends were like, yeah, we probably should have told our kids not to go get jobs either.

I mean, because it was a struggle at 1st and they were like. You know, like, see, we told you they should go get jobs because he was supporting us financially. Like, our bills and the organization early on, but then once we figured it out and things started to grow, like, all of his friends wish they had done that with their kids as well.

Atman Smith: And and his friends not only didn’t become went from doubters to supporters, but they actually started supporting us financially. As well, too, and now. Whenever we have a fundraiser, they come and support and tell us how proud they are. So it was a huge shift, but it took a really long time.

And honestly, you know, our dad, he was a stubborn dude. So, you know, he didn’t once ever fail at anything. And I think we were 1 of the things that he didn’t want to fail it. And, you know, he supported us, like, I always say for, like, 8 years. And then, you know, that’s when, you know, we finally got, you know, national recognition with the yoga study, the 1st yoga mindfulness study on the effectiveness.

Of it on urban youth through Johns [00:05:00] Hopkins and Penn State. And then after that, it was like a snowball effect of support financially from foundations and from media outlets you know, and then after the media outlets and the, and the study, all his friends were like, Oh, yeah, man, he was on to something, you know what I mean?

So, yeah, we definitely humbled and appreciate, you know the support that you know three pillars gave us, it was him our godfather and, you know, our mom, she made sure we ate like she would drop off packages of food because like, we didn’t have two pennies to rub together for the first eight years.

So, you know you know, through the combination of that tripod, it helped support our tripod.

Gissele Taraba: That’s, that’s so powerful because I was, as you both were talking, I was thinking 20 years ago, mindfulness and yoga, especially within the school systems and so on. It wasn’t as popular as it is now. It wasn’t so you know, embedded within, you know, you had Jon Kabat Zatt and all these other people that kind of made it [00:06:00] more popular.

 How was it in the beginning received when you were when you were talking about mindfulness and yoga, especially as a form of really addressing some of America’s biggest issues like poverty and, and, and violence.

Andres Gonzales: I mean, like you said, it wasn’t very common, at least not, not as much as it is now, you know, you hear mindfulness everywhere. You’d see yoga and media and all over TV shows and movies. I remember when we were first working with the kids and we would even say the word yoga, they’d look at us like, Yogurt, Yoda, you know, like they didn’t, yeah, Yoda, right.

The word wasn’t familiar to them. It wasn’t like it was now. So I think initially it was received with skepticism from a lot of the kids and a lot of the programs that we did because it wasn’t as popular as it was today, but I think that all saw the transformation that occurred within us with our practice and we embodied the practice [00:07:00] of something that our teacher really, really emphasized.

You know, you had to be authentic, you had to actually be a scientist, do the techniques, do the practices on yourself, see what the results were, and we saw what they were, we saw, you know, what it, what good it could do, not only for us, but our community and for mankind in general. And I think that Us going into these communities and these programs that we had and just being the practice, you know, when we say, Oh, isn’t something do it something you are.

I think that was something that was evident in the three of us in our practice so that we’ve resonated that energy so you know the kids may not have been down to do it or been skeptical but I thought it’s lame whatever I don’t want to do this. But we were pretty cool guys, and they saw that we were like, man, we need to try to do this.

And usually you know, for all the listeners, I’m sure there’s a lot of people out there that once you try it, you know, once you do this, the experiment on yourself, once you take some breaths and you start incorporating some movement or some meditation into your life, it can almost be [00:08:00] instantaneous that you see and feel those benefits.

And, you know, you become more present in the moment instead of being in the past or the future, you start to learn to love your real self more, which in turn allows you to love others. And that love and that compassion that Ali was talking about that we saw that was missing in the world, it grows. And I think it’s something that we saw when we were working with our first group of kids and throughout all these 27 years now is, you know, you just really were just kind of planting the seed and reminding people.

These. Techniques and practices and this ability within themselves, you know, to let their light shine, like that book says. And I think that we just wanted to be the conduit, right. To keep passing on these practices and these techniques to help out. As many people help themselves, you know, people oftentimes say that we save people’s lives or we help, you know, we don’t do any of that stuff.

We’re just reminding people and they’re the ones that are taking control of their own lives and learning how to self [00:09:00] regulate and how to be more present.

Gissele Taraba: Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Thank you for sharing that. First. I just want to say thank you for planting seeds because I think all of the people who planted those seeds way, way back.

We’re helping humanity. We’re helping us get to this point. So it must’ve been difficult to go eight years without seeing the fruits of your labor. But so thank you for holding on to that stubbornness and the vision. You mentioned some of the outcomes that you yourself experienced. You, you mentioned a few, can you share a little bit?

bit more in terms of how it changed your life by implementing this mindfulness in yoga, especially since it seemed, and I could be wrong, that you grew up in a neighborhood that was more like violent and more poverty stricken. Is that accurate?

Atman Smith: It is. I mean, honestly, when we graduated from school, we moved back to the neighborhood that Ali and I grew up in and you know, it was, you know, I remember one weekend three people got murdered within our two two block radius.

You know, the open air drug [00:10:00] market, dilapidated housing, they call our neighborhood like the blue light district because there’s like surveillance cameras like on every other corner with like blue lights, like the police siren or police lights. You know, yeah, it’s very depressing neighborhood and a very scary for some folks but.

You know, in the midst of all that stuff we were blissing out and it was because of the practice. You know, a lot of our friends used to come to our neighborhood and ask us like, yo, like, y’all are broke, y’all don’t have no car, y’all live in one of the worst, most dangerous neighborhoods in America, and like, y’all happy, why the hell are y’all happy?

And we would return the question and be like, well, you know, y’all have great jobs. Y’all married, y’all live in great neighborhoods. Y’all have nice cars and you’re miserable. You know what I mean? So it must be something to what we’re doing. And honestly, we realized from that point on that we needed to share this with other people, along with the fact that, you know, [00:11:00] when Ali, Andy, and I like big Star Wars and like Marvel comic book, you know heads and, you know, we were always trying to figure out, you know, like, man, we want to be super packed superheroes so we can, you know, save the world.

You know, during that time, that was like, you know, when we were in our last year of school, we were also searching for, like, what is the point of life? Why are we here? It has to be more like Ali usually says, like, it has to be more than just graduating, getting a job, getting married, having some kids. Retiring and dying.

There has to be more to it. So we have read a lot of books and, you know, whether it’s, you know, philosophy creational theories ancient history astronomy, astrology, and, you know, we were, we’re looking for what the purpose of, of our existence. And, you know, the more we read, the more questions we had.

And they would always say the answers are within the answers that within, we looked at each other like, man, how the hell do you go within? And during that [00:12:00] time, our teacher, who’s me and Ali’s godfather you know, he had been trying to get us into yoga for the longest time. And, you know, we just thought he was crazy.

Like we would be sitting around his Island in his kitchen and we would, you know, be drinking a Heineken or something and, you know, watching basketball. And, you know, in the midst of us watching basketball and enjoying ourselves here, like he he’d like point to the Heineken and be like, you know, you’re putting toxins in your body.

You need to learn how to get them out and start doing a yoga breath called Kapila body where, you know, it’s, they call it the breath of fire where you get. exhaling three breaths per second and that like detoxifies your body. And at that time, you know, we would look at each other like, man, this dude is crazy and get up and leave.

But, you know, I think that once we saw, once we were looking for a teacher and looking for the answers that are within, you know, we realized how much of a gem he was. And we actually saw like a yoga manual that taught you a lot of like meditations [00:13:00] where you know, you could like, you know, it was esoteric stuff, like maintain your body without eating.

What, what, what meditation can you do if there isn’t a hospital and, you know, other stuff like that. And we’re like, yo, yo, can make you become like a superhero? And he was like, well, you know, that’s part of it. That’s a distraction. But honestly, what it is, is to unite your individual self, which your universal self.

And, you know, the other stuff are just byproducts and all of us are like, yo, can you teach us? And, you know, what he said is that you know, you got to make me 2 promises. You have to wake up at 4 30 in the morning, an hour, half before a sunrise to practice with me. And the 2nd thing is, you got to promise to be teachers.

And honestly, that’s the reason another reason why. Besides, you know, seeing people suffering is we made a promise to our teacher that he, you know, he said he would teach us any and everything if we decided to be teachers. And the 1st population that we taught where the people in our community, because there was so [00:14:00] much suffering so much undiagnosed trauma and, you know, like Andy said, like, we always say is that, you know the best thing to do is, you know.

Do not have people dependent on you. Our teacher was like, man, I don’t want no devotees. I want to create teachers. That’s what we did is we wanted to create teachers. So we empower people with the practice of how to be the practice, what the benefits are and how to practically apply it into your life.

And, you know, it started off in our hood but then it’s expanded, like you said, around the nation and around the world.

Gissele Taraba: Yeah. Yeah. Thank you so much. You said so many amazing things. I just want to highlight a few. Number 1 being that it’s happiness, joy, bliss. It’s an inside job. You guys can show the way and you’re the light keepers.

But people have to be willing to be able to do that work. And I think that’s what people sometimes struggle with. Like sometimes we want to be saved, but the truth of matter is we’re only going to save ourselves. And so you demonstrate that beautifully in saying you can be in a quote unquote terrible environment and still be blissing [00:15:00] out.

Or you can be in a yacht you know, in Capri and have all the money in the world and still be. Miserable, because wherever you go, there you are, right? So I think that’s really important. I wanted to mention, I am so into esoteric and as far as our mind and our thoughts can, can take us. So if you’re interested in more supernatural stuff, Lee Holden, who is my Qigong teacher, has done a little documentary on like, Like being able to, to, you know, to see beyond it’s really quite a cool, it’s it’s called supernatural or something.

And Dr. Joe Dispenza also does that stuff, I just thought it would be interesting in terms of like seeing what. How far we can go in terms of bending reality and so on. But I want to go back to your comment about the impact.

Because as I was thinking about your work, I was thinking, you know, have young children I’ve been trying, I like my husband and I’ve been teaching them to love themselves and to into practice. Just, they’re just not into meditation. So how do you engage young people in a way that [00:16:00] gets them to move away from that resistance and that distractibility, especially now with electronics to wanna embrace the kind of work that you do?

Ali Atman: So I think it’s, it’s, it’s different teaching your own kids versus teaching other people’s kids. And so I know when my boys were born, when my oldest son was born, we had been teaching kids for probably a little over a decade, no, 2006, we probably teaching kids for about five years. By the time my, my oldest son was born, people were asking me, like, well, how are you going to teach him?

Like, when are you going to show him yoga and show him how to meditate and all these things? And it. It wasn’t really that it was just me practicing around him and waiting for him to ask the right questions to decide that he wanted to take that journey with the practice. So I’ll be sitting on my mat doing the breath of fire doing side create.

He would just come and sit on my lap and stare at me or he was. Meditating, we kind of sit down next to me on the on the couch or whatever. So it’s just like he was around when he was asking those questions. So I think when you’re dealing with your own kids, you have to make it something where you wait for them to be [00:17:00] ready for it and not use it as a punishment.

Make it fun. And mold the practice, not around what your practice is, but molded around what’s going to benefit them and what they’re interested in when we’re in schools. It’s a little, I mean, it’s, it’s a little easier because, you know, we show up in a school. We’re not their teacher. We’re not the parents.

Like, we’re the fun guys from the outside that are coming in to show them something new. And it’s a, it’s a lot of the same things make it fun, make it engaging, show them how it’s going to help with their struggles. And meet them where they are. A lot of kids, most, I feel like a lot of people that want to teach mindfulness in schools or yoga for that matter, they’ll go in and they’ll go in with an idea of exactly what they want to teach, or they’re teaching from a curriculum or they have like they walk in with their class structure.

If you walk in there, you’re not going to give the kids what they need. If you walk in with that mentality, we always say you got to ready to throw it all out the window and listen to the kids because kids will tell you what they need. Like, if you listen to them with your ear, your heart [00:18:00] and energetically, they’ll tell you exactly what they need.

And you can give them that. That’s what when we train our teachers at the holistic life foundation. We don’t use curriculum. We don’t use things along those lines. We give them a toolbox where they can go in and just teach them how to really be present and listen. And a part of that is coming from having your own personal practice.

Like when you have your own personal practice and you can feel and experience that stillness and that peace and that inner love and that interconnection, like it starts there, like you said, it vibrates out and then you can start to feel it from the people around you, but you can also feel when those people.

And you are suffering. And if you listen to them, you’ll know what you’ll know what to present them with so that they can practice to heal themselves up. So I think it’s, it’s, it’s similar, but it’s just a little, it’s more, it’s definitely more difficult teaching your own kids than it is teaching other people’s kids.

Gissele Taraba: Just to add a little something else. You know as far as meditation, a lot of people just try to like jump straight into the meditation when they try to teach people or teach kids. And, you know, sometimes that can be more harm than good, that style of meditation that you teach because, you know, [00:19:00] when kids are just sitting in silence, they get lost in their own thoughts, traumas can pop up and, you know, all that type of stuff.

Atman Smith: So, you know, what we do is we kind of have a skeleton. When we teach practices in general, contemplative practices, we always do something physical to kind of get rid of that restless energy and then make their body a safe space. Then we do some breathing practices to kind of still their mind and then they’ll be ready for meditation.

But we don’t, you know, we have more of a guided meditation where we’re kind of leading them to a specific path instead of the silence that will let their mind wander. So, you know, until like, Ali was saying, until they actually develop their own practice, it’s really good to kind of have that blueprint of physical practice, breathing.

And then meditation guided meditation. And then once. They kind of have that adapted. Then you can kind of let them do their own thing. And, you know, through repetition, even if there is silence, they’ll hear you in their mind, leading them through the practices. So they still have a kind of guided meditation you know, [00:20:00] while there is silence.

So, you know, that’s pretty much besides what Ali was saying, that’s kind of how we approach it.

Ali Atman: Yeah, and if you think about it, what I most talk about is a very trauma informed way of presenting the work, but. I mean, the 8 limbs are already trauma informed. If you follow him, I mean, like, that’s the way that yoga set up.

Like, you talk about the embodiment with the Amazon and he is like, what are you doing in your life to buy the practice? You do the movement to make the body a safe space to do the breath work to slow the mind down, and then you jump into your meditation. So it’s a science for a reason. It’s, it’s, it’s.

Sustained for thousands of years for a reason because it works if you teach it the right way. I think people try to like pick pieces out of it or teach it in a way again, back to the curriculum thing. They try to go like, well, this is going to be day one and this is going to be day two and this is going to be day three.

And you have to do this type of, you know, I mean, but like, you know, the way it was originally set up, it works. It’s got to be adapted for modern times a little bit in its presentation, but the way [00:21:00] that it’s structured, it works. If you do it that way.

Atman Smith: Yeah. Pat and Jolly was on to something. Do

Gissele Taraba: Andres, do you have any thoughts?

Andres Gonzales: No, they covered it. Okay,

Gissele Taraba: cool. Yeah. So I, what you were both talking about is I think what Andres mentioned earlier, which is that embodiment, right? When you’re embodying that, you can get a sense of what people need in the moment and give them what they need rather than what you come with in terms of your framework.

And so I think that’s really important. I also wanted to mention Ali, you’re a better parent than I, than me. Because I, I kind of had to learn that later on. I, I learned about self compassion and self love and meditation and Qigong and movement, all that stuff later on. And so I kind of had to learn what you just mentioned, which is allowing the kids to have their own journey and allowing them to be curious.

And if that’s not their journey, then that’s not their journey. And so that’s, I think that’s, that’s a beautiful way to put it into be open to [00:22:00] sharing what they’re interested in. I found with my kids in particular, like they kind of want to explore their own things, which I, for me, it means they’re safely secure because they’re like, eh, I don’t want to do that.

I want to do something else. And it’s like, awesome. Wonderful. Can you tell me a little bit more about some of the some of how this program is embedded within schools? You mentioned you kind of come in and do kind of like a pop in. And the reason why I asked this question is because I’ve had experiences where you drop in and you do something and then you leave, but how can we weave this as part of the natural school system and, or in different environments in a way that would make it?

Andres Gonzales: Sustainable 1 of the worries that I always have is sometimes when you have these programs in there, the budgeting, the budgets get cut. Like, these are the first programs that go. So how do you weave it into the system so that even if you are cut, it’s still kind of within the culture so much so that it could continue? We have a wide variety of programming, right? I [00:23:00] would say one of the main ways we weave it in is the way that we lead the practices. Similar to how our teachers at DUST, hey, I’m not teaching students, I’m teaching teachers. We do that we use a reciprocal teaching model. So when we go into the schools and we do these programs, whether it’s the full school wide initiative, whether it’s little pops and pop ins, whether it’s residencies, they were always teaching the kids to be teachers.

So I remember when we used to have our after school program, there would be 90 kids in the gym, the three of us. And it wasn’t us leading the practices, it’d be a little kindergartner in the front leading through some salutations or doing the asanas for everybody. It’s to make them embody the practice and empowers them too.

So now they are these leaders and they go out in their communities and they make friends and they change stuff. And similar in the schools, you know, you start finding that the kids, once they start seeing the true benefits of these practices, That they’ll raise their hand and say, hey, teacher, we’re [00:24:00] about to take a quiz.

Can I do lead everybody to the stress breathe? And they’re the ones leading. So, even if we step away, sorry, the puppy’s the one,

Gissele Taraba: even

Andres Gonzales: if we step away, then they’re still. Running the programs, they’re the ones that can facilitate the practices because it’s really not that hard once they learn how to do it.

It’s like you said, I think you get it right on the nose, the culture or the school or whatever facility starts transforming and changing. And this becomes common to see the kids doing some breath work or meditating to learn how to self regulate and using these practices. So, we’re really, we don’t want people to rely on us.

We want to come in. Guide and lead as we can, but when we step back. It’s kind of a a machine self that’s rolling and it just becomes part of daily routine like, Hey, at this school now we breathe or we meditate. And I think that’s what really allows it to stay sustainable and make an impact, not only [00:25:00] inside the school, but in the surrounding community as well.

Cause then the kids go home and they’ll see mom and be like, mom, you look stressed out. Sit down. I’m gonna give you some breaths. And then it just transforms the entire area.

Ali Atman: I love that. One thing that we look at his train the trainer programs, like, there are those people who are in school buildings who are who are adults.

That are that connect to the kids very, very well, they’re good at. Diffusing situations, they’re good at connecting with the kids and get them to kind of feel safe enough to share. We’re good at going into the building and adding mindfulness and yoga and breath work and meditation to their skill set so they can make a bigger impact in the school.

So, even if the budget does get cut. Like, they’re already in the building, so they might, you might find those mindfulness champions that are that that will actually be training to become mindfulness champions in the building. So that, like. You know, they can they can still do all they’re doing, but they’re also empowering the kids with practices to help them with mental health issues to help them heal from trauma to deal with anxiety to deal with [00:26:00] that lack of connection.

All those things that kids are suffering from these days, and it’s become 1 of our major ways of helping people around the country because, you know, it’s kind of unfair for us to go into a school and we go there for a week. And like, you know, we make the practices really fun. We’ve been teaching them for a long time and everyone’s all excited about mindfulness.

And then we go away and they’re like. What the hell do we do now? Like, this is like, what are we supposed to do? So I think we want to make it sustainable. We want to make it stick. We want to make it effective when we’re when we’re gone. So I feel like our train the trainer is probably the most impactful thing that we can do.

To help people outside of direct service, but, outside of Baltimore, and when we’re going in other places, it’s that train a trainer where we can. Find those people and train them up to just enhance what they’re already bringing to the school community.

Gissele Taraba: Wow, that that is so important because what you’re talking about is that kind of bottom up approach and sort of middle up approach as well.

Does the leaders ever take any of your programs? Because I [00:27:00] definitely as a leader, I would see that as something that I would want to take to because I mean, I know people that are vice principals and so on and they get very stressed out. So, to be able to breathe before you’re managing something difficult would be great.

Ali Atman: So, we made the mistake for you for over a decade of going into a school and only working with the students there and that doesn’t work because the teachers are more stressed out than the students in a lot of cases, because they’re dealing with their own life stress. And they’re dealing with the secondary trauma and the burnout they’re dealing from working with the kids.

So we started working with teachers for a while, and it wasn’t until we started our Mindful Moment program that we started working with the principals. And we realized that that’s where we had to start every single time. You got to start with leadership. Because it all trickles down, whether it’s that stress domino of, like, starting with the principals and going to the teachers, the students.

Students bring it home to the parents. So like it’s coming from everywhere. So we know that we won’t walk into a building if we can’t work for it with everyone in the building. And you know, we, we do, we’ve done leadership outside of schools as well. [00:28:00] City Council President Zeke Cohen here in Baltimore started this Healing Cities Act, where he’s trying to make Baltimore, well he’s kind of made Baltimore a trauma informed city.

Gissele Taraba: Nice.

Ali Atman: Oh, it was, we did trainings for around, like, trauma informed yoga mindfulness for the mayor for the city council for the heads of all the city agencies. We’ve done deep dives with parks and recs with the libraries. With the state’s attorney’s office with the housing authority. And next we’re going to work with all the firefighters in the city.

So, like, you know, like, there’s there’s a space for it in the community outside of schools because adults are suffering to not just the kids, but it’s got to start with that leadership every single time. And if you can get a leader that’s brought in, and then, like, totally sold on the program, the program’s not going to go anywhere.

It’s always going to be there and it’s always going to sustain and keep growing.

Gissele Taraba: And I love that you’re also creating leaders within the school as well. So even if that leader changes, you’ve got kids that can really step up into the leadership. And so you are shaping the future, which is [00:29:00] amazing. I wanted to ask about, you know, in the information that was shared with me, you talk about that your program has, I mean, so many amazing outcomes in terms of, you know, like anxiety and stress and self esteem.

One of the things that stuck out to me in particular was about. Self care and self love. Can you tell me a little bit about how they differ and about how you’re working with that?

Andres Gonzales: Yeah, I can chime in. So I think one thing we noticed a lot, you know, when we were working with the kids, Initially, you can see how we’re giving them these practices. Like you said, everyone’s really focusing on how the kids can, you know, how it’s going to impact them in school. So can they focus better concentrating more removing ruminating thoughts to be present this, you know, dealing with conflict in a more peaceful manner.

So these conflict resolution skills and You know, that’s like the focus on everyone. Like, how can we get the kids to do better with these programs in [00:30:00] terms of school, education academics. And, and it was funny, we would see the main thing that was really happening was they learned to love themselves.

And that is what the real transformation where the real transformation occurred. Cause they learned to love themselves. And now they’re looking at themselves differently, they don’t see themselves separate from everyone else, they start to feel more interconnected with all their peers, and they’re not just part of the west side of Baltimore, or the city of Baltimore, or the state of Maryland, or the United States, but they’re part of everyone and everything.

And I think that when they started learning to love themselves, it allowed them to see other people. And being more empathetic and compassionate to others, and they learn to love others more, and they start seeing, oh, well, you know, someone, Johnny’s going through something today and empathize with it more, because they’re like, I know sometimes I go through that too.

And I think that self love is really, really important for everyone in the world, but [00:31:00] in particular, youth, when they learn to love themselves and they start seeing themselves in everyone, every other thing. And it’s like, well, why would I treat anyone or anything negatively or, you know, with hatred when they’re just another version of me and they start loving everyone and everything.

And that’s why I think everything starts to gel. I think you need to learn to love yourself first, right? That self love before you can take care of yourself, right? Because if you don’t know who you really are and you’re not loving yourself, then you can’t really take care of yourself. I think then we, you With the practices they start and some of the concepts that we discussed when they start learning about, you know, taking care of themselves, you know, that’s not selfish.

Right. You know, one phrase that we use a lot is that, you know, people oftentimes are giving from their well right but they give from their well until it’s empty. And that’s not what we should be doing as human beings. We need to take care of [00:32:00] ourselves, do those things to make. I’m always like makes our hearts of soul smile, you know, the things that we really love to do and take care of ourselves.

First, our cup is overflowing and that’s what you give from is the overflow. So then you’re always functioning at 100 percent if not more than 100%, right, but most of the time people want to just give and give and give and they you know they’ll set themselves on fire to keep other people warm. And that’s not a way to live or to function.

And I think with these practices, as they start to learn how to love themselves, part of that is the understanding, Hey, I need to take care of myself as well. And if not, then I’m just giving from a half empty cup and no one wants to do that. You’re not really giving fully. So I think, I hope that answered your question a little in terms of the absolutely did.

Yeah.

Gissele Taraba: And it, it reminds me about the whole you know, airplane thing. You’ve got to put your own oxygen mask on first before you can help others. Otherwise you’re no good to anyone. And I’m also very appreciative because I saw the whole concept of self love [00:33:00] on the outcomes that you list. And I think that is so important, especially for men, especially young men, because I think.

And this is just my perspective. I could be wrong. I think we really do a disservice for young men in particular. I think that we as a society, we’ve kind of done, like, don’t ask for nurturance. diminish you’re crying and your vulnerability and focus only on anger and focus only on like connection through sex.

And so I think that by allowing young people to be okay with their vulnerability, to love themselves and to accept themselves. And especially for our boys, I think it’s so important. So I am very grateful to have seen that on your information. Any thoughts about kind of in particular self love for boys?

So

Ali Atman: it’s funny as you were saying that I started smiling because it was like, if you look at the way that our generation was raised, like just the movies and the TV shows and like, you can’t cry and you, you know, you got to push down all your [00:34:00] emotions. Like we were set up for failure. You know what I mean?

Like we were set up for like emotional failure. Just because of the way that, that, you know, our parents were doing the best they could with the information they had, but it was. You know, I feel I like the fact that this generation. You know, they’re under the right circumstances, they’re learning to be tough.

But they’re also learning to be in touch with their emotions as well. Like, I feel like at some points, they can get carried a little too far and then, like. The toughness is taken out of, like, life in general, but I mean, like, you do need resilience. You do need to be mentally tough. You do need that strength.

You can’t crumble at everything that happens to you, you know what I mean? Like, so I think there has to be that balance of the toughness and being in touch with your emotions to be able to express that. And I think the kids that are, that are coming up now do have an opportunity to do that. Again, under the right circumstances.

But again, there has to be that balance because there, there are a lot of kids that do that. I’m not gonna say they’re too in touch with, I [00:35:00] think they’re just, they’re, they’re not in touch with their, their tough side and or they’re the resilience that, that you need to get through life. ’cause life is gonna be difficult.

Life is going to knock you down and you can’t just focus on being sad and being knocked down part of life is focusing on that getting back up and not only getting back up, but getting back up stronger every time life does knock you down because it’s going to happen over and over and over again throughout your life.

So, I think it’s, I think it’s that balance. And again, I’m just happy to kids are there and we do talk about self love with the boys, I mean, because there’s a reason. Isn’t it like boys are so angry. There’s a reason that boys are so disconnected. There’s a reason that the murder rates are high in some cities because a lot of these young boys don’t have any regard for human life.

And you can’t ask them to care about someone else’s life to be nice to someone else to care about the environment to care about their city if they don’t even care about themselves so like. Why am I going to care about them? And I don’t give a damn about myself. So [00:36:00] like once we can take the time for them to, and that’s one of the most beautiful things about what we bring to the kids is that it’s the, we give them the ability to connect with themselves.

Because like most of the kids we noticed were only connected to their physical environment, which can be very bleak, can feel very helpless and very hopeless most of the time. So like, if that’s all you’re connected to, I’d be mad too. I would be pissed off at everything too. I would be like, you know, I would just be angry all the time.

But once with the practice, you connect to your true self, they connect to that. Let your light shine. You connect to that. You connect to that higher purpose. Like you connect to that what all the things that are like stirring inside of us that most people ignore. Uncle will used to always say that we’re ignorant of the light.

Not that we’re not that we aren’t aware of it, but just that we ignore it. We’re so focused on The outside world, and like, you know, once you can turn them inward and they can start to feel that that peace and that stillness, they connect to something greater and like, oh, I’m not just this, [00:37:00] this in this neighborhood.

I’m connected to the entire planet, and you see them start to change you see them start to interact with themselves differently. And then once they start to interact with themselves differently, you start to see them become more compassionate, more loving and more empathetic to the people around them.

And it’s beautiful to see because we’ve seen it with so many kids that have started off as angry little kids in our program that are now helping out their community that some of them have worked for us. Some of them still work for us, and they want to give to the world and they want to go explore outside of their neighborhood and outside of their city and they’re going all over the place.

They’re doing. These amazing things because the gift that was given to us by Uncle Will, we gave to them and they’re giving that gift to other people, that gift of like connection to your true self.

Gissele Taraba: Yeah. Thank you so much. That, that was so powerful. Kind of forgot what I was going to say. Oh, actually I do remember.

You know, one of the things you mentioned is resiliency. And I think that’s what you’re teaching. You’re teaching mastery [00:38:00] because if you can take your focus away from the environment, all the challenges and everything and focus inward and from that place, find peace, find happiness. And then focus on your thoughts to create your dream life.

Ali Atman: Then you have mastered this experience. And I think, like you said, we teach children to focus just on the physical, look at your environment. This is reality. This is real. This is all that stuff. And so they focus so much outwardly that to bring them back to themselves is such a gift, such a gift. As you were saying, one thing Uncle used to always say to us that still echoes in my head daily, constantly, several times a day, it’s like, it’s easier to go from the inside out than it is from the outside in.

You would always say you start your In the light every single day, because then you can you have you have your frame of reference in truth and in your real self and then you can go out into the world. Do it that way. But it’s harder. Like you were saying, you’re going outward. You’re going out where you’re going outward.

And then to remind yourself to come back inward, but start your [00:39:00] day in the light and your day in the light. And because it’s a lot easier to go from the inside out. That it is from the outside in. Oh, he would always tell us that.

Gissele Taraba: Oh, you need, you need to make some uncle Willie stickers and give them to the kids so that they get uncle Willie says, like, I think that would be amazing.

Cause then they can put them on their backpacks and so on. Anyways, I, yeah, I wanted to read this quote because I think is super, super important. It’s actually what drew me to want to have this conversation. And that is a school replaced detention with meditation and the results are stunning.

Having worked in child welfare. I have observed children who dysregulate because, you know, school is a hard day at the office and Mother’s Day, Father’s Day, all that stuff is very triggering. kids having the cops called on them. I’ve seen teachers that weren’t able to manage behavior and that their only response is a punitive response that then kind of trickles down.

Atman Smith: Can you share a little bit about how your program has helped the school [00:40:00] shift from punitive to supportive outcomes? I can start off, guys. The program that you’re talking about is our Mindful Moment program. And the premise of the program is you know, for 1 we have a alternative to suspension room.

I guess that’s what everybody was talking about changing detention to meditation and that wasn’t our aim. That’s just what happened. We created space and the oasis in the school. Where it’s like, you know, oil diffusers, Himalayan salt crystals, fountains, everything to make, like. A serene place in the school, natural lighting plants, you know, all that type of stuff when kids.

Are in crisis instead of them getting punished, like you were saying punitive action. They come to our room. They can either refer themselves. Or teachers or administrators can refer them to come down. To our room where we have it staffed by staff. And, you know, when the kids come in there, you know, we actively listen and mirrored and empower them as people always talking at kids and never listening.

So that kind of, you [00:41:00] know, tips off a little bit of the anxiety and the stress. When as soon as they come into the room then we talk to the kids about stress stresses and how the stress plays out in their body. Is your teacher stressing you? Is it a peer that’s stressing you. It’s something that you’re thinking about that happened earlier in that day.

And when you do get stressed. How does it play out in your body? Do you clench your fist? Do you clench your jaw? Do you fold your arms? Do you shift your weight? Do you play with your hair? And then, you know, we explain that to them and then we go through a breathing practice or a meditation and, you know, that kind of helps them achieve homeostasis.

And then we ask the kids, the students, the young people are like, so the next time you see that stressor or you feel that stress playing out in their body, do you think that you can do this practice, which you can see can kind of calm you down? And, you know, the kids, like, yeah, I’ll try it and it may, they may not try it right away, but eventually they do try it.

And they learn how to self regulate and I think 1 of the beautiful things about that part of the program is the numbers start off really, really high at the beginning of the year. [00:42:00] But as a year progresses, they dwindle the frequency of kids coming to the room. Doing those down next to nothing, because the kids do learn how to self regulate.

And then, you know, we have like a school wide practice too. So it’s like a tier 1 tier 2. Tier three intervention you know, where if you know, at the beginning of the school day in elementary schools, it’s at the beginning of first period in high schools, it’s at the end of first period to give the kids a grace period to get to school.

And, you know, we’ll do a series of movement in the elementary schools breath work and meditations in the high schools. You know, they don’t wanna look they don’t wanna stand out. So it’s just like breathing and meditation. And then we also go into, like, do push ins into classrooms where, you know, we pay attention to when kids are bouncing off the walls, like, after lunch or during transition periods.

And we, our staff go to the room and, you know, work with, you know, the small cohorts in the classes. And then we also have that mindful ambassadors program where we train a certain percentage of the student population to help [00:43:00] infuse these practices into the school day. So, like, during testing time.

They can lead their peers to certain breathing practices that can help with test anxiety and, you know, basically, it just infuses these practices into the entire school. I think 1 of the most beautiful anecdotal evidence that we have of the effectiveness of this program is, you know, at the high school that we started the program at Patterson high school in Baltimore.

They were known for, like, fights and riots, honestly, they won like that crazy world star hip hop site a lot for the amount of fights that they had at that school. But, you know, as we infuse this program into the school, the principal had no idea the impact that it was making on the school climate until he went to another school and saw how hectic the school was, how frictional it was, and, you know, how unempathetic the students were with each other.

And when he got back to his back to the school he was going to go to a mindful moment room and, you know, staff, like I said, they do push ins into [00:44:00] classroom. So the door was locked and, you know you know, no kids to get into the room yet. There was a student sitting out in outside of the room doing breathing and meditating and, you know, he

Called us up. He was like, Yo, this is program is amazing. Not only was it amazing that the kid was doing breathing and meditation outside of the classroom and you know, our classroom was right outside of the most frequented hall space in the entire school. He said it was amazing that you know, he’s like last year if a kid was sitting with his eyes closed, meditating in front of a room, a kid might have punched him or kicked him in the face.

But now it’s just a common occurrence. It’s just become part of what the school is. And, you know, that, in turn, has that shift in the school climate is the reason why the detention numbers went down, the suspension numbers went down, attendance went up, test scores go up, and everywhere this program is run with high fidelity, the same thing happens.

And, you know, I think that’s why, you know, people always refer [00:45:00] to it as a program to change detention to meditation. You know, all we did was just kind of bring these contemplative practices into the school and help empower these. Kids with self

Ali Atman: regulation. And I think just adding to what Atman was saying, I think above and beyond changing the attention to meditation, most of what we were doing was changing the students because like, like the kids that are, the kids have vibrated in a different way than than people, than most other people on the planet.

And the schools are set up in such a way that it’s not serving them. Like you feel that you forget there’s no real creativity. Like most schools don’t have art or music. The kids are supposed to sit in a classroom the entire day. They’re not doing any movement. A lot of schools don’t have gym. They don’t have recess.

Everything’s punitive. So you do this, you go to the office, you do this, you go get sent home, you do this, you go get sent to detention. And, you know, the kids need. Something different. So I think what we were doing was we were giving them the skills and the tools to be able to deal with the way that the schools were set up that weren’t serving [00:46:00] them.

So, like, we were giving them practices to you know, that inner peace that’s within every single one of us, we showed them how to find it and then we showed what it felt like to drift away from it, but then we’re showing them how to bring himself back to it. So, like, they always had a skill. They always had a place to go.

Whether it was outside of them, whether it was their thoughts, whatever was just kind of destroying their peace, we were giving them tools to get back to that peace and that stillness. So. I think that’s what the main thing was, like, we, what we’ve been talking about empowerment and reciprocal teaching the whole time, but we’re all about.

Empowering people with the practice so that they can heal and save themselves. So I think that’s what a big part of this mindful moment program is changing. Like, it changed attention to meditation because the kids were changing. They were different people. They weren’t. So they weren’t so impulsive, they weren’t stuck in sympathetic dominance.

You know what I mean? There was the things that were going on on. Where they were healing from the trauma they’ve been through and they were learning to deal with the anger and anxiety and the stress and the depression, the things that are making them act out and it just shifted their, [00:47:00] their, their worldview and the way they viewed themselves and treated themselves.

And how they treated everybody around them

Atman Smith: and as Ali said earlier you know, we don’t just work with the kids. We work with the teachers as well. So, you know, another aspect of the program is, you know, working during their teachers, professional development days, teaching them practices not to bring into the classroom.

But for self care, there’s so much turnover and burnout and secondary trauma. That they face that, you know, not only, you know, do the teachers have like a Herculean task. To teach the students stay on on course with the curriculum and, you know, help the kids with their issues and, you know, all this other stuff, but they’re dealing with a lot of secondary trauma.

They don’t know how to release. And, you know, what our staff do is, you know, during the professional development. And then when they have their planning periods, we go in there and work with the teachers and administrators to kind of help them de stress release that secondary trauma and be more present.

And, you know, that, [00:48:00] them coming from, A lens where they’re not as aggressive to the students also helps with that, you know, changing the classroom in the school environment. And I think that that’s why this program is so impactful because not only does it work with the staff. But, you know, it helps empower the teachers and administrators as well.

Gissele Taraba: I just want to acknowledge because having worked in leadership for many, many years in a not for several not for profits. I know how difficult it is to change a culture. I know how easy it is to make it negative, but how much work and attention and intention it takes to make a culture that is positive and loving.

How much time do you guys often spend within like, let’s say, give me just an example of how much time would you spend in a school in order to be able to have some of these outcomes?

Andres Gonzales: I think it varies. You know, a lot of times it depends on where the school’s at. Some schools you’ll [00:49:00] go into there and they have instructors who are already leading mindfulness practices or doing some breath work. Administration’s really down with it. You go to another school and they’ve never done any of that type of stuff.

There might be some pushback from the adults, like, oh, you’re taking away my academic time. I need all the time I can just to, to teach and I don’t have time to do this mindfulness type stuff. So I think it really does varies on a case to case basis when we do something like the mindful moment program.

It’s a school wide initiative. So you’re going to see the results quicker because the entire school is Being involved in this and you have stuff on a loudspeaker where you have the kids or the teachers saying, Hey, ignore that. It’s still being heard being part of the day. It’s present throughout the entire school year.

Sometimes when we go into schools and school residency, it’s just us in there for a week. You know, the idea is to teach your training, get them to start implementing the programs during transition times or whenever they can. It just may take longer for it really to impact the culture. [00:50:00] So I wish I had more of like a, it’ll take four or four doses of this and three of this and this many weeks and you’re good to program.

But it really just varies, you know, where we’re going to where their level of mindfulness or being present practices are. And us just trying to be there to support and be a resource for them to start incorporating all these practices into the school. So it does become, like we’ve been saying, just commonplace and the culture of the school shifts.

And it’s like, when we’re going through adversity, we do breathe it.

Gissele Taraba: Yeah.

Andres Gonzales: And language, everyone’s reinforcing the practices, that’s when you really see that transformation occur.

Gissele Taraba: And I think what you said is very important because you’re meeting people where they’re at instead of what Ali was saying, you’re not coming in with your, here’s my box, fit into my box.

It’s like, okay, Oh, what do you need? All right. So maybe we’ll do this and we’ll implement this. And I think that comes from all the years of wisdom that you’ve been doing it. I’m going to give you your flower. Some of the most amazing outcomes you’ve had are obviously emotional wellbeing, [00:51:00] resiliency, decrease in stress and anxiety, a decrease in school suspensions, healing trauma, increasing compassion and empathy, especially for people at risk.

Are there any outcomes that you found surprising?

Ali Atman: I, are you, do you mean for just in general or for instance, schools?

Gissele Taraba: Anything

Ali Atman: I’d say how much I’d say some of the most surprising work for me has been in the drug treatment centers with adults that we’ve worked in. Just how much, you know, like. People who people use drugs for me to reasons, and they use them for a myriad of reasons, but, they’re looking for something, you know what I mean? They’re looking for something to take away a certain amount of pain or bring some joy, whatever they’re doing. But I think just seeing them realize that there’s something inside of them that they can they can find stillness, they can find peace, they can find happiness, they can find joy.

And then how much they take to the practice and want to share it with other people and how much you see them brighten [00:52:00] up almost instantly from like. Learning about the breath, learning about some movement, learning about like deep spiritual forms of meditation to connect them to that light within themselves.

And then just seeing how it shifts and transforms. And I think that’s always is one of the places I enjoy teaching most is adult treatments drug treatment centers for adults because of like the almost instant shifted, like even after the first class, like you see them, they’re like, damn, like, okay.

So I’ve been looking, whatever I’ve been looking for, I’ve been looking in the wrong places and for the wrong things. Like it’s, it’s inside of me and I’m going to keep coming back to learn how to tap into it. And it’s just, and it’s amazing to see because they do go home and they do teach other people. I remember there was one drug treatment center that we were working at that the clients loved us so much and we’re getting so much out of the practice that the last day, no one showed up, like we had a contract for, I think it was like a few, several months in the last, they were expecting like a big, like, Hey, and then we were like, where is everybody?

It was like, they couldn’t say goodbye to you all. Like they loved. What you all were teaching so much that they were just like, they had to [00:53:00] just they stepped away and that was the end of it. We didn’t see him again, but like, you know, bumping into people out on the streets of Baltimore. Cause Baltimore is not a huge city and they might, and they’ll stop us and like, Hey, well, I’m still using this practice.

I’m still using that practice, but that’s I wasn’t, I wasn’t expecting that much of a shift with that population. But, I mean, it made total sense once once we saw it, but I don’t think I was expecting that when we first went into the drug treatment centers for adults.

Gissele Taraba: Thank you so much because I think you mentioned something that is really crucial for people to understand. I think this war on drugs and everything we’re looking. We think that that’s the outcome. Then we got to decrease drug use when really that’s the coping. You gotta address the real problem, which is the reason why people are using drugs, you know, like people wanting to escape their own reality or wanting to tap into something else that’s beyond what they’re experiencing.

And what you’re doing this is you’re giving them different options, which is, I think, so important. A few more questions if that’s [00:54:00] okay. I wanted to ask what you thought unconditional love means to you. What does unconditional love mean?

Andres Gonzales: I can start off. I would say you know, unconditional love for me is that you’re loving and you’re not doing it for a purpose. You’re not looking for results or something to come back to you. You’re just loving because that’s kind of what we’re supposed to do as human beings anyways, right?

There’s a form of yoga that our teacher you’d always talk about. We always talk about bhakti yoga and respect. We would say, you know, it’s the easiest form of yoga and it’s the hardest because it’s the easiest because you have to love everybody. That doesn’t seem that hard, but it’s the hardest because you have to love everyone because that means you have to love those people that Are the murderers and, you know, the douchebags, right?

And the people that are, you know, so it’s hard

Gissele Taraba: to love

Andres Gonzales: everyone, but it’s easy because it’s love, right? Love is great. And so he would take the word respect and he’d say real way to look and respect is to break it into two [00:55:00] words re like again, inspect, like spectacle. So they, to look again, and he would say, when we look at people, we see them for the physical bodies.

And then when we respect them, we look again and we see the light within them, which is the light within us. And we love them ’cause they are just another version of us. And I think that’s, for me, what real unconditional love is, is just loving because I’m supposed to love, there’s no, there’s no, I’m not doing it for a purpose.

I’m not doing it to receive anything. I’m not doing it to get anything. It’s just loving. ’cause that’s what we should be doing as human beings. ’cause really we’re just reflections of each other. So. My mom is one that’s really, really embodied that practice, I think. And she just gives and gives and gives and loves so much.

She could be stranger than anyone. She just loves it. She does it. She’s not trying to get somebody to love her back. She just is like, this is what

Gissele Taraba: I

Andres Gonzales: think is right. And this is what feels right to me. Just loving [00:56:00] because we all love anyways. I

Gissele Taraba: love that. Just to add

Ali Atman: little bit to that as you were saying it, I was thinking about definitely think about Vata yoga and what Andy was saying, because Uncle Will would always talk about that.

But just, I feel like unconditional love is, has to start with loving yourself unconditionally. A lot of people get, I mean, like the outside world tears you down, but like that negative self talk and that inner critic can tear you down more than anyone. Outside of you you have to deal with those low vibrational thoughts and all that’s bringing you down.

But I think when you can love yourself through all of that unconditionally. And not just the good parts, people only want to love the good parts of themselves, but you got to love. Those, those, the kind of quote, unquote, dark or bad parts of yourself, those low vibrational parts of yourself. The parts that you might not like that much.

But those parts of you have taken you on your life journey as well. Like you wouldn’t be where you were without those, you know, the yin and the yang. Like you need the light parts, you need the dark parts, you need all of that to make [00:57:00] the whole. So I think you got to really, really love yourself in that way.

And then you can start to see that love. In the people around you, but I think another part of that unconditional love is part of it has to be loving with boundaries. You know what I mean? Like, you can’t love so much because people will see people who are loving and they’ll take advantage of them. And they’ll get over on them, but I think you have to have enough self unconditional love for yourself.

You can love with those boundaries when, you know, like, all right, this person’s getting over on me. I’m not going to stop loving them, but I’m just going to love them at a distance. I mean, I can not have them in my energy and in my personal space. They can be gone, but I can still send them love. So I think that.

All that ties into that unconditional

Gissele Taraba: love. Wonderful. I could listen to you guys like literally all day.I was wondering if as the last question is, can you share about yourself? Where can people find you? Where can people work with you? I know you have done a little bit of work in Canada, I think with some of our indigenous communities.

So I know you can come to Canada. So those schools that are looking, bring these guys or other [00:58:00] places. So please. Let people know where they can find you.

Atman Smith: I mean, you can find us on our website. H. L. F. I. N. C. dot. O. R. G, hlfinc.org.. subscribe to our newsletter. It’ll let, you know, where we are around the nation. We actually are expanding our mindful moment program into 3 new cities, 4 new schools.

2 in Milwaukee, 1 in Chicago and 1 in Denver. So that that’s really exciting. Like you said, we have our satellite program in the Akwesasne territory in a Mohawk reservation where, you know, we’re working in upstate New York and in Canada and the surrounding counties. Also you know, we take a deeper dive in the esoteric practices in our for profit organization called the involution group.

So you can check us out there involution dot love, involution.love.. We have this really great 30 day course called spiritual strategic playing the 8 paths to happiness. And, you know, check our book out let your light shine [00:59:00] and, you know, just, just follow us. We’re on Insight Timer also as the involution group, if you want to get some audio practices from us.

And yeah, that’s about it. And, you know. Just, if you want to get us out to your city, just reach out to us and, you know, we can figure out what that looks like.

Gissele Taraba: Wow. Thank you so much for taking the time out to have such an amazing conversation with me. I’m so, so grateful that you’re able to come on cause I am appreciative of your time.

Thank you for joining us. So another episode of the love and compassion podcast, with Gissele, and join us soon.

Atman Smith: Bye.

[00:00:00]

Gissele Taraba:

Don’t forget to like, and subscribe for more amazing content. Today, I’ll be speaking to Savio P. Clemente, a TEDx speaker and stage three cancer survivor who embodies the journey from stumbling to soaring. His experience battling cancer a fire within him, shaping not only his character, but also his mission.

Empowering aspiring leaders who have overcome medical adversity to unleash their full potential as a media journalist. Savio covers inspiring stories of resiliency and wellness trends collaborating with notable celebrity and TB personalities through his bestselling book and impactful work. He encourages individuals to love their inner stranger, rewrite their narrative and become.

Unstoppable [00:01:00] leaders through his transformative Aloha reboot, Savio, a board certified wellness coach guides individuals towards living a truly healthy, wealthy, and wise lifestyle at the core of his message echoes the profound truth to know thyself is to heal thyself. Please join me in welcoming Savio.

Savio Clemente: Hi Savio. Hi Gissele. Thank you so much for that lovely intro. So excited to be here. I’m so excited to talk about all the things that you described. So thank you.

Gissele Taraba: Yes. Thank you. Thank you so much for being on the show. I was wondering if you could start by sharing with them what got you started on this journey?

Unfortunately,

Savio Clemente: it was cancer. It showed up in my life in July of 2014. And from that experience, I decided I had two options. One, I could be defined by the diagnosis, even though I’m a. I’m in remission, or I could actually use it as a source of healing and [00:02:00] empowerment for not only myself, but for other people.

I can delve a little deeper into that story, but that’s the impetus of the work that I do and why I feel so passionate and grateful being able to do the stuff that I’m doing.

Gissele Taraba: That’s beautiful. And I saw from your TEDx talk that your cancer journey was about four months. About 4 months long, which seems pretty amazing considering the people that I have known who have had that journey usually say it’s, it’s quite, it could be quite a lengthy journey.

What do you think helped you really turn the corner after such a short time? I’m sure it was a difficult time. I don’t want to diminish that the 4 months, but I’m just wondering if you could share with the audience what helped you really get to the path to healing.

Savio Clemente: You know, mentioning that particular time frame, I often am very cautious because It looks to others like I’m bragging or that I’m saying that I discovered a [00:03:00] secret that they didn’t discover, but for me, I think what helped me was a few things.

So, before cancer came into my life, I’ve always been on an exploration of just learning and growing as a person. I grew up Catholic. I was an altar boy. I went to Catholic elementary school. And somewhere along time in college, I discovered that there was other secrets or other things that I wanted to learn, other things that I wanted to do.

get my hands on or experience for myself. And so for me I discovered or researched things like Buddhism to spiritualism. And I wanted to understand that. And when cancer came at that time, I was a longtime meditator. I was meditating, started out with like a minute or two a day, and then it was about 20 minutes a day.

So I think that helped me to a large part. my care team. So the way cancer showed up into my life was that I went on a trip with a friend to Amsterdam, Paris, and London. I had deep night sweats. I thought that was really odd. It came back to the States, night sweats. Then my [00:04:00] stomach started getting stented.

At that point, I ended up seeing a naturopath who I saw for a good eight years in a row. He would analyze my blood, tell me what vitamins to take, what, what, what structure, what food structures to eat and whatnot. And he said, this is really odd. It could be a whole bunch of things here. Savio, I suggest you get a sonogram.

And I’m like, a sonogram? He’s like, yeah. I’m like, okay. So I get a sonogram. They wouldn’t let me leave the office. And they told me to have a relative come pick me up. And I was like, that’s odd because I have my own car, but my dad came, took me to the hospital and within an hour and a half, they, they admitted me to the fifth floor.

And then within the next day, I heard nurses talking that it would transmit to the seventh floor, which they call the cancer floor. So that’s when I found out I had cancer. And so I made a decision in that moment. A flash of insight came to me from a movie back in the day. And I tell the story all the time.

I think it’s very important is that there was a movie with Keanu Reeves called little Buddha back in the early nineties. He played Siddhartha. He played the little Buddha who gave up all his worldly possessions. [00:05:00] He was meditating with three with two other aesthetics, and he overheard two individuals on a fishing boat, one older, one younger, the older person had a instrument in his hand and told the younger person, if you hold the string too tight, it will snap.

And if you leave it to slack, it won’t play the path is the middle way. And that was like, wow. And so the medical director said to me, if you don’t do your first round of chemo, I don’t know where you’ll be. Even though a friend of mine said to me, are you sure you want to go down this path? Because chemo ravages the body, the good and the bad.

Gissele Taraba: Yeah.

Savio Clemente: And so I said, well, the middle way is the path for me. And so I tell this story because I think that helped me as well. So I did six rounds of chemo. Every three weeks in between that I did a whole bunch of integrated modalities from ozone therapy to energy medicine to the black seed oil to putting a Google alert on my phone so I can learn about the cancer in general.

So I think that was it and I think also was the belief somewhere along the way that. And I echo this in my TEDx [00:06:00] talk is to know thyself is to heal thyself. So I found that my physical body was dying, but I found that the other parts of me was still alive. My emotional sectors where I was like, really like alive and caring and, and understanding and empathetic, even with other people who’d come in and out at four roommates, two of them had brain cancer.

I was empathetic to their needs. My relationships with my family and friends were still heightened. My mental body was still there. I was still. You know, Googling and researching my dreams were very vivid. And so I think allowing myself to grasp or grab onto that person who was dying allowed me profound depth insight into realizing that this is the reality and I can’t shake this reality.

What I can do is make a choice on how I want to deal with the reality.

Gissele Taraba: Yeah. Beautiful. Thank you for sharing that. And I think it makes You make an important point that I think people should choose what feels right for them in terms of [00:07:00] what their journey is going to look like. And so I think that’s great.

What decision did you make at that time, like, in terms of how you were going to live your life and how did that lead to the work you’re doing now?

Savio Clemente: Yeah, so I, this is a tough one because I. My family and friends were all, you’re going to handle this fine. If someone can handle it, you can, even though it’s stage three, they’re like, we got no problem.

We were totally confident in you. And although I appreciated their trust in me or their expectancy and how I’m going to handle this in me, there was a lot of pressure. And so I decided to just focus like a laser beam on the healing and I let everything else in my life go. Fortunately for me doing those integrated modalities, I think helps stave off any of the negative side effects.

I was still working out six days a week. I was eating well. I was still meditating. I was doing, you know, work as much as I could only had a little bit of lethargy. And I think with all that, the decision that I make was to, it’s [00:08:00] not over until it’s over. And even though I felt healthier as every infusion proceeded, my oncologist was very clear.

He’s like, we need to go through the whole protocol and then see what happens. And so for me, the story goes that in four and a half months of six rounds of chemo plus integrated modalities, I ended up getting my remission status five days before Christmas that same year. And this past December of 2023, it’s been nine years of remission.

Gissele Taraba: Wow. Congratulations. Thank you. Yeah. And so how is it that that journey helped you get to the point where you are helping leaders overcome their medical adversity and then kind of really step up into their own power?

Savio Clemente: Sure. So after five years of being in remission, I said, okay, I want to do something with this.

I didn’t know what it was, what it looked like. A little background information about me. I studied I. T. I did a lot of project [00:09:00] management and I. T. and software dot coms and all the good stuff. But I never really loved it. Then I teamed up with a group of people. We did some TV production as well.

That was interesting to me. But after five years, I said I need to do something with what just happened to me. And so I decided to get my board certification in wellness coaching. It’s the same certification that it’s, it’s given by the NBME, which is the National Board of Medical Examiners. It’s a serious test.

And I remember taking it at four and a half hours of like really focused and concentrated. Cause I wanted to make sure that I, if I’m going to do this, I’m going to do this right. And I’m going to be going to be there and create the container and be able to give what I need to give. My writings were still there.

So I pitched a topic to my editor on my community, Cancer Survivor Community, and he thought of a great title. So we launched an interview series called I Survived Cancer, Here’s How I Did It. And at this point I’ve interviewed 200 cancer survivors. It then became a subsequent book, I took 35 of the stories told my [00:10:00] own and one day before my birthday became a bestseller in four categories.

Gissele Taraba: So the

Savio Clemente: work that I do is really about individuals with medical adversity, whether it’s cancer or not, allowing them to just own them, own their story because no one can take away their story. And in order for someone to follow you, if you’re a leader, you need to walk the walk and talk the talk. And so I made it a mission and a point of mind to do that.