Loving Differently Podcast

We started this conversation off the mic and realized we should have been recording, so this episode picks up mid-conversation.

Everyone has a case formulation, including the therapist. We cover why it's so much easier to see someone else's patterns than our own, why therapists need their own therapy and trusted colleagues, and the irony of helping patients change while being unable to change our own families. We discuss why deep change takes time, how diagnosis and formulation serve different purposes, why estrangement rarely frees us from the attachment figures in our heads, and what it means to love differently rather than stop loving. They also share some of their own origin stories as clinicians and name the "fixer" pattern many therapists will recognize.

Have a topic you'd like us to cover? Email us at [email protected]

Chapters 00:00 Cold open: picking up mid-conversation 02:00 Therapists are people too 04:30 Blind spots need mirrors 07:00 You can't be your family's therapist 08:30 Why real change takes time 12:00 Diagnosis vs. formulation 15:30 Attachment figures live inside us (and why estrangement doesn't work) 17:00 Loving differently, not loving less 20:30 Copy process vs. love, and seeing caregivers as human 23:00 Grief and leaving red 25:00 Passing the baton forward 26:00 The therapist fixer trap 28:00 Choosing with awareness: a lesson from Lorna Benjamin 30:00 Our origin stories as therapists 33:00 Universal through-lines beneath the DSM 36:00 Listener requests: anger, partnering, and parenting 38:30 Wrap-up

Disclaimer Note: The Loving Differently Podcast is for educational and informational purposes only. The content discussed in each episode is not a substitute for professional mental health care, diagnosis, or treatment. Listening to this podcast does not create a therapist–client relationship with either of the hosts. If you are experiencing psychological distress, relationship difficulties, or a mental health emergency, please seek support from a licensed mental health provider in your area or contact your local emergency services.

In this finale to their personality disorder prototype series, Eliza and Ken step back to reflect on what they've learned using Lorna Smith Benjamin's Interpersonal Reconstructive Therapy (IRT) and the SASB model. They talk candidly about their shared ambivalence toward diagnostic labels, walk through a real case ("Sylvia") whose interpersonal pattern statistically overlaps two personality disorder categories, and discuss why treatment direction tends to fall directly out of a good interpersonal case formulation. They also dig into a trend Eliza sees often in session: clients arriving with self-diagnoses from TikTok, and the difference between over-identifying with a label versus understanding a pattern. The episode closes with a discussion of therapeutic alliance, enactments, and why personality pathology makes the therapy relationship itself part of the work.

In this episode:

• (00:00) Series wrap-up begins
• (02:00) How each host mentally represents the SASB model
• (03:00) Ambivalence about personality disorder labels
• (04:00) The bridge between interpersonal theory and DSM diagnosis
• (06:00) Stigma and the risk of labels
• (08:00) Two ways to think about what prototypes offer
• (11:00) Introducing the Sylvia case
• (14:00) Sylvia's pattern: perfectionism, overlap of OCD and passive-aggressive features
• (17:00) Why the story resolves what the label can't
• (20:00) SASB as a middle ground between raw phenomenology and diagnostic boxes
• (22:00) TikTok, self-diagnosis, and over-identification with labels
• (25:00) How treatment implications flow from interpersonal understanding
• (28:00) Alliance, enactments, and countertransference with personality pathology
• (33:00) Humanizing attachment wounds
• (36:00) Listener feedback, thanks, and IRT training updates

Note: The Loving Differently Podcast is for educational and informational purposes only. The content discussed in each episode is not a substitute for professional mental health care, diagnosis, or treatment. Listening to this podcast does not create a therapist–client relationship with either of the hosts. If you are experiencing psychological distress, relationship difficulties, or a mental health emergency, please seek support from a licensed mental health provider in your area or contact your local emergency services.

In the final installment of our personality disorder prototype series, we tackle Cluster A: paranoid, schizoid, and schizotypal personality disorders. Using Lorna Smith Benjamin's Interpersonal Reconstructive Therapy framework, Eliza and Ken trace each pattern back to its developmental origins — from sadistic, controlling caregiving to the contradictory double-binds that produce magical thinking and eroded reality-testing. We also ask some harder questions: Is schizoid personality really a disorder, or just a different way of being wired? Where does eccentricity end and psychosis begin? And what does it mean to be a "rhetor" — a persuader — when helping a client reconsider a belief system taught to them by the people they trusted most?

Note: The Loving Differently Podcast is for educational and informational purposes only. The content discussed in each episode is not a substitute for professional mental health care, diagnosis, or treatment. Listening to this podcast does not create a therapist–client relationship with either of the hosts. If you are experiencing psychological distress, relationship difficulties, or a mental health emergency, please seek support from a licensed mental health provider in your area or contact your local emergency services.

Welcome to Loving Differently, a podcast co-hosted by Drs. Ken Critchfield and Eliza Stucker-Rozovsky.

Summary:

In Episode 12 of the Loving Differently Podcast, Dr. Kenneth Critchfield, Ph.D., and Dr. Eliza Stucker-Rozovsky, Psy.D., continue their Personality Harmonics series with a deep dive into Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD) and Antisocial Personality Disorder (ASD) through the lens of Interpersonal Reconstructive Therapy (IRT).

Rather than treating DSM-5 personality disorders as flat labels, Ken and Eliza explore how these patterns can be understood as developmental and relational adaptations. This episode walks through the prototypic pattern, developmental histories, and exclusionary and inclusionary criteria for both NPD and ASD.

This episode is especially relevant for clinicians working with trauma, interpersonal patterns, personality disorders, and challenging therapeutic alliances. It offers an IRT-informed way to hold empathy and accountability together while thinking carefully about case formulation, therapist adherence, and treatment timing.

Note: The Loving Differently Podcast is for educational and informational purposes only. The content discussed in each episode is not a substitute for professional mental health care, diagnosis, or treatment. Listening to this podcast does not create a therapist-client relationship with either of the hosts. If you are experiencing psychological distress, relationship difficulties, or a mental health emergency, please seek support from a licensed mental health provider in your area or contact your local emergency services.

Subscribe for more IRT-focused discussions. Send us your questions at [email protected].

Timestamps:
00:00 LDP Episode 012 final

02:39 Narcissistic Personality Disorder Overview

08:23 NPD Developmental History

30:26 IRT Treatment Approach for NPD

48:13 Antisocial Personality Disorder

57:28 ASPD Developmental History

01:09:36 IRT Treatment Approach for ASPD

01:21:21 Wrap-Up & What's Next

Summary:

This episode continues our personality disorder prototype series by exploring histrionic personality disorder (HPD) and its relationship to borderline personality disorder (BPD) through an Interpersonal Reconstructive Therapy (IRT) lens. Clinical Psychologists Ken and Eliza examine how both patterns center around fears of abandonment, but diverge in how individuals attempt to meet those needs—highlighting coercive dependency in HPD and shifting relational dynamics in BPD.

The episode also addresses gendered assumptions in diagnosis and the importance of case formulation over labels. Clinicians will gain a deeper understanding of how interpersonal patterns develop, how they present in therapy, and how to respond without reinforcing maladaptive cycles. This discussion offers practical insight into working with personality disorders in a way that is compassionate, nuanced, and clinically effective within an IRT framework.

If you like this episode, please subscribe, like, and share with your friends. Let us know what you want to hear us talk about in future episodes - we are listening! Check out the ⁠IRT Institute ⁠website for more information on IRT, including training for mental health professionals. We have also created an ⁠episode guide⁠ that gives more detailed information about each episode.

Note: The Loving Differently Podcast is for educational and informational purposes only. The content discussed in each episode is not a substitute for professional mental health care, diagnosis, or treatment. Listening to this podcast does not create a therapist–client relationship with either of the hosts. If you are experiencing psychological distress, relationship difficulties, or a mental health emergency, please seek support from a licensed mental health provider in your area or contact your local emergency services.

Timestamps:

00:00 Introduction to the series and rationale

02:30 Framing personality disorders through IRT and SASB

05:00 Overview of borderline personality dynamics

08:00 Introducing histrionic personality disorder

12:00 DSM vs interpersonal understanding

16:00 Developmental history of histrionic patterns

21:00 Similarities and differences between HPD and BPD

27:00 Clinical implications and therapy dynamics

35:00 Countertransference and therapist awareness

45:00 Closing thoughts and preview of next episode

References:

for specific references

Summary:

In Episode 010, we (Dr. Ken Critchfield and Dr. Eliza Stucker-Rozovsky, licensed clinical psychologists) continue our personality prototype series through the lens of Interpersonal Reconstructive Therapy (IRT). We focus on borderline personality disorder (BPD) and passive-aggressive patterns, exploring how developmental trauma and complex interpersonal learning shape enduring patterns seen in DSM-5 personality disorders.We unpack core IRT concepts such as complex codes, copy processes, and the “gift of love,” illustrating how interpersonal patterns—like fear of abandonment, coercive care-seeking, and self-sabotage—develop and persist. We also examine how developmental trauma contributes to paradoxical dynamics (e.g., love paired with fear, autonomy paired with punishment), and how these patterns play out in therapy.This episode is designed for clinicians seeking a deeper, formulation-driven understanding of personality disorders beyond symptom checklists. We emphasize how recognizing interpersonal patterns can guide more effective, compassionate treatment.
If you like this episode, please subscribe, like, and share with your friends. Let us know what you want to hear us talk about in future episodes - we are listening! Check out the ⁠IRT Institute ⁠website for more information on IRT, including training for mental health professionals. We have also created an ⁠episode guide⁠ that gives more detailed information about each episode.

Note: The Loving Differently Podcast is for educational and informational purposes only. The content discussed in each episode is not a substitute for professional mental health care, diagnosis, or treatment. Listening to this podcast does not create a therapist–client relationship with either of the hosts. If you are experiencing psychological distress, relationship difficulties, or a mental health emergency, please seek support from a licensed mental health provider in your area or contact your local emergency services.

Timestamps:

References:

In this episode, Ken Critchfield, PhD and Eliza Stucker-Rozovsky, PsyD begin a new miniseries on Interpersonal Harmonics—a core concept in Interpersonal Reconstructive Therapy (IRT)—by exploring Cluster C personality disorders through an interpersonal lens.

We walk through avoidant, dependent, and obsessive-compulsive personality patterns, highlighting how these presentations extend beyond DSM-5 symptom lists into deeply rooted interpersonal patterns shaped by developmental trauma and learning histories. Using SASB-informed thinking and copy process theory, we examine how early caregiving environments shape internal self-criticism, fears of rejection or incompetence, and rigid perfectionism.

Throughout the episode, we emphasize a central IRT principle: these are not “disordered people,” but adaptive love stories gone wrong. By understanding the interpersonal logic behind these patterns, clinicians can move beyond diagnosis toward meaningful case formulation and compassionate, effective treatment.

Note: The Loving Differently Podcast is for educational and informational purposes only. The content discussed in each episode is not a substitute for professional mental health care, diagnosis, or treatment. Listening to this podcast does not create a therapist–client relationship.

Timestamps

(00:00) – Launching the Interpersonal Harmonics miniseries

(02:00) – Why Cluster C personality patterns first

(04:30) – Avoidant personality: beyond anxiety

(06:30) – Fear of rejection, humiliation, and longing for connection

(09:00) – Developmental origins and criticism

(17:30) – Therapy stance with avoidant patients

(43:30) – Transition to dependent personality

(45:00) – Developmental pathways to dependency

(52:00) – DSM vs interpersonal patterns in dependency

(01:01:00) – Transition to obsessive-compulsive personality

(01:03:00) – Perfectionism and fear of imperfection

(01:08:00) – Living in the courtroom

(01:14:00) – Therapy stance for OCPD

(01:24:00) – Experiencing life beyond perfectionism

(01:28:30) – Summary of Cluster C

Check out episode 008 where we review an upcoming publication and its implications.

Paper referenced: Panizo, M. T., Harrison, E. G., & Critchfield, K. L. (in press, 2026). Interpersonal Diagnosis of Personality Disorders: Explaining Comorbidity and Enhancing Clinical Relevance. Journal of Psychotherapy Integration.

Summary

In this episode of the Loving Differently Podcast, we (Dr. Ken Critchfield and Dr. Eliza Stucker-Rozovsky) dive into a newly accepted paper examining the interpersonal diagnosis of personality disorders through the lens of Interpersonal Reconstructive Therapy (IRT). Using the SASB model, we explore how longstanding debates in the DSM-5—categorical versus dimensional models of personality disorder—can be reframed through interpersonal patterns and developmental histories.We discuss how personality disorders are best understood not as fixed traits, but as learned relational strategies that once served adaptive purposes in difficult environments. Drawing on empirical findings from Panizo et al. (2025), we examine interpersonal hostility, comorbidity, and how overlapping personality disorder features emerge naturally when viewed dimensionally. We also explore how interpersonal case formulation offers clinicians greater empathy, specificity, and hope for change.Throughout the episode, we connect theory to clinical practice—highlighting how IRT helps clinicians move beyond symptom management toward helping patients reconstruct deeply ingrained relational patterns rooted in developmental trauma. We also preview an upcoming series focused on specific personality disorder prototypes and their interpersonal harmonics.Send us your questions at [email protected] and subscribe for more IRT-focused discussions.Note: The Loving Differently Podcast is for educational and informational purposes only. The content discussed in each episode is not a substitute for professional mental health care, diagnosis, or treatment. Listening to this podcast does not create a therapist–client relationship with either of the hosts. If you are experiencing psychological distress, relationship difficulties, or a mental health emergency, please seek support from a licensed mental health provider in your area or contact your local emergency services.

Timestamps

• (00:00) – Introduction and context for the Panizo et al. paper

• (02:30) – Why personality disorders remain a central clinical challenge

• (05:00) – Categorical vs dimensional models in the DSM-5

• (08:30) – How SASB conceptualizes interpersonal patterns

• (12:00) – Developmental trauma and adaptive origins of personality patterns

• (16:00) – Interpersonal hostility as a core feature of personality disorders

• (20:00) – Understanding comorbidity through interpersonal overlap

• (25:00) – Five interpersonal clusters identified in the research

• (32:00) – Clinical implications of interpersonal diagnosis

• (40:00) – Hope, change, and reconstruction in IRT

• (48:00) – Bridging DSM language with interpersonal case formulation

• (55:00) – Preview of upcoming personality disorder series

• (63:00) – Final reflections on empathy and clinical relevance