Loving Differently Podcast

In this short update, we (Ken and Eliza) wanted to pause and say thank you to everyone who has listened to Loving Differently this year. When we started the podcast, we genuinely didn’t know if anyone would be listening — and the thoughtful feedback, engagement, and curiosity from clinicians and learners alike has meant more to us than we can easily put into words.

We also share a quick update about our limited merch campaign, which was created to help support the podcast as we upgraded our recording setup and production quality. From mugs to t-shirts and totes, we wanted to offer items that were genuinely well-made and meaningful — things we’d actually want to use ourselves — as a small way of saying thanks while also covering some of the real costs of running the podcast.

Link to merch: https://linktr.ee/irtinstitute

Finally, we give a preview of what’s coming next on Loving Differently, including upcoming episodes on personality disorder, personality measurement, and the SASB interpersonal framework, as well as deeper clinical conversations grounded in Interpersonal Reconstructive Therapy (IRT) and the work of Lorna Benjamin. We’re also beginning to plan more in-depth IRT training opportunities and workshops for those who want to go further.

Send us your questions at [email protected] and subscribe to this podcast for more IRT-focused discussions.

Note: The Loving Differently Podcast is for educational and informational purposes only. The content discussed is not a substitute for professional mental health care, diagnosis, or treatment, and listening does not create a therapist–client relationship.

Timestamps

(00:00) – Ken and Eliza share a quick update and say thank you

(00:35) – Why we launched the merch campaign and upgraded our recording

(01:15) – What the merch means to us and why we chose quality items

(02:05) – Gratitude for listeners and feedback over the past year

(02:45) – How long the merch campaign runs and what happens next

(03:05) – Upcoming episodes on personality disorder and SASB

(03:35) – Future plans for IRT training and workshops

(04:00) – Holiday wishes and closing thanks

A preview of our most recent episode, all about what is reconstruction mean (the "R" of IRT).

In this episode, we unpack the “R” in Interpersonal Reconstructive Therapy: Reconstruction—what it means, why it matters, and how it reshapes identity, relationships, and the patterns we carry forward from early life. We explore the dynamics of Red and Green, the powerful pull of the Gift of Love, and why change can feel both destabilizing and deeply transformative. Using clinical examples and personal reflections from practice, we illuminate how IRT helps people move from old, loyalty-driven patterns toward their birthright selves.

If you like this episode, please subscribe, like, rate/review, and share with your friends and colleagues. Let us know what you want to hear us talk about in future episodes - we are listening! Check out the ⁠IRT Institute ⁠website for more information on IRT, including training for mental health professionals. We have also created an episode guide that gives more detailed information about each episode.

Note: The Loving Differently Podcast is for educational and informational purposes only. The content discussed in each episode is not a substitute for professional mental health care, diagnosis, or treatment. Listening to this podcast does not create a therapist–client relationship with either of the hosts. If you are experiencing psychological distress, relationship difficulties, or a mental health emergency, please seek support from a licensed mental health provider in your area or contact your local emergency services.

Timestamps:

(00:00) – Introducing the episode: what “reconstruction” means in IRT

(01:15) – Housekeeping, listener feedback, and new platform availability

(02:10) – What makes IRT’s take on personality and change unique

(03:00) – Defining reconstruction: patterns vs identity

(04:30) – Fear of losing oneself when patterns change

(06:05) – Red and Green explained: behavioral templates under stress

(07:15) – The “regressive loyalist” and how Red protects old bonds

(09:00) – The Gift of Love: why patterns persist across a lifetime

(10:40) – Lorna Benjamin’s quote: “Every psychopathology is a gift of love”

(12:10) – Applying IRT concepts: example of OCP patterns and learned control

(14:20) – How early caregiving shapes perfectionism and self-neglect

(16:00) – Why other therapies get “stuck”: insight vs motivation

(18:00) – Understanding attachment motivations to unlock change

(20:00) – The shift from Red to Green: awareness, blocking, choice

(22:45) – Exploring Green: flexibility, tolerance, authenticity

(25:10) – Practicing alternative patterns: behavioral vs existential change

(27:40) – Creativity, play, and exercises that support Green

(30:00) – Rehearsal, repetition, and neurobiological restructuring

(32:10) – The deeper transformation: identity, grief, and loss

(34:00) – Courage, mistrust, and the leap into the unknown

(37:00) – Honoring patients’ bravery and the therapist’s role

(38:30) – Wrapping up + preview of Episode 008 on personality disorders

Summary:

Welcome back, folks! We are almost through with the beginning, didactic-like episodes where we introduce all the IRT/SASB lingo. Today's episode is introducing SASB and key concepts/terms associated with SASB. The intro to SASB topic is actually broken into two episodes, to make it easier to listen!

If you like this episode, please subscribe, like, and share with your friends. Let us know what you want to hear us talk about in future episodes - we are listening! Check out the ⁠⁠IRT Institute ⁠⁠website for more information on IRT, including training for mental health professionals.

Timestamps/Notes:

3 axes of SASB: Focus, Affiliation, and Interdependence

(08:52) - Axes of SASB

Axis 1 - Focus: Is this about you, or is this about me?   

(10:00) - Focus on other

(10:35) - Focus on self relative to other

(11:35) - Focus on self

Axis 2 - Affiliation: Are we in friendly space, or are we in hostile space?  Axis 3 - Interdependence: Do we go our separate ways or do we share?

(12:56) - Describing SASB visually, with axes of affiliation (13:00) and interdependence (19:17)

(26:52) - Goals of IRT using SASB - flexibility

(30:40) - The “dances” within SASB 

-Principles of similarity, opposites, and complementarity

(38:15) - Baseline of healthy relatedness

References:

Critchfield, K. L., & Benjamin, L. S. (2024). Structural analysis of social behavior: A primer for clinical use. American Psychological Association (APA).

Summary:

In this episode of Loving Differently, Dr. Ken Critchfield and Dr. Eliza Stucker-Rozovsky unpack one of the most important empirical contributions to Interpersonal Reconstructive Therapy (IRT): The Gift of Love as a Candidate Mechanism of Psychopathology and Change in IRT. Published in Psychotherapy (APA), this study investigates how deeply entrenched interpersonal patterns—rooted in early attachment experiences and developmental trauma—shape symptoms in individuals with high acuity clinical needs.

Rather than comparing IRT to a control condition, this research examines therapist adherence to IRT principles and whether aligning treatment with case formulation, supporting “green” over “red,” and engaging the Gift of Love motivations leads to meaningful clinical improvement. The sample includes patients with repeated hospitalizations, suicidality, and longstanding personality disorder diagnoses—individuals often labeled “difficult,” “treatment-resistant,” or “non-responders” in traditional DSM-5 frameworks.

Dr. Critchfield and Dr. Stucker-Rozovsky discuss how adherence predicts better outcomes, including higher retention and significant recovery rates. They also explore how the Gift of Love framework provides a structure for understanding unconscious loyalty, symptom meaning, relational patterns, and why clients struggle to change despite genuine desire to feel better.

Send your questions to [email protected] and subscribe for more IRT-focused discussions.

Timestamps:

(05:00) - General takeaways from GOL paper

(14:15)- GOL Awareness and Choice Scale

(16:20) - The importance of learning history in IRT; why some modern day therapy is present focused

(22:22) - Meanings of ‘symptom’ in IRT, in relation to the GOL

(31:39) - Adherence in IRT

(34:34) - 5 Steps of IRT

(36:15) - What IRT addresses that TAU does not

(39:10) - Supporting Green over Red

(53:40) - Collaboration in case formulation development

(55:00) - Choosing to love differently

(58:30) - Mediation effect in IRT paper

(61:00) - GOL and “treatment resistance”

(64:40) - Paucity of research studying individuals with high acuity clinical needs

References:

Critchfield, K. L., Gornish, A., Epstein, L., Mackaronis, J. E., & Benjamin, L. S. (2025). The "gift of love" as a candidate mechanism of psychopathology and change in interpersonal reconstructive therapy for patients with high-acuity clinical needs. Psychotherapy (Chicago, Ill.), 10.1037/pst0000556. Advance online publication. https://doi.org/10.1037/pst0000556

Karpiak, C. P., & Benjamin, L. S. (2004). Therapist Affirmation and the Process and Outcome of Psychotherapy: Two Sequential Analytic Studies. Journal of Clinical Psychology, 60(6), 659–676. https://doi.org/10.1002/jclp.10248

Summary:

Welcome back! In today’s episode, we take a bird’s eye view of personality disorders. We look at the categorical definition of a personality disorder in the DSM-5 TR and compare and contrast it to an IRT understanding of personality disorders. We discuss stigma related to the term ‘personality disorder’ and our own ambivalence around this terminology. 

Over the course of the episode, we talk about ways IRT helps to destigmatize personality disorders and humanize our patients, through working to understand a person’s specific learning history and relational patterns as ways of adapting at one time. We also discuss the role of trauma in development of personality disorders, ways IRT holds hope for positive, meaningful change, the role of finding the Green self in fostering this change, and our musings about what exactly changes in a person undergoing IRT treatment. This is a fun episode - we hope you enjoy!

If you like this episode, please subscribe, like, and share with your friends. Let us know what you want to hear us talk about in future episodes - we are listening! Check out the ⁠IRT Institute ⁠website for more information on IRT, including training for mental health professionals.

Timestamps:

• (4:02) - General PD definition DSM-5 TR

• (8:25) - Stigma around personality disorders

• (11:30) - Some relational summaries for avoidant, schizoid, dependent

• (13:30) - 1993 Lorna book

• (15:45) - Our ambivalence about PD labels

• (24:45) - Relational signatures of personality disorders

• (29:00) - Trait theory vs Red

• (31:30) - Copy processes making problem patterns specific to learning history

• (33:33) - Role of trauma in personality disorders

• (34:35) - Lorna’s metaphor of relational harmonics and letting go of GOL

Summary:

Welcome back! We could talk about SASB for WAY longer than this, but this is part 2 of what we'll call the introduction to SASB. In today's episode, we take each of the eight positions of the cluster model one at a time and discuss each, complete with applications in everyday life as well as within therapy conversations!

If you like this episode, please subscribe, like, and share with your friends. Let us know what you want to hear us talk about in future episodes - we are listening! Check out the ⁠IRT Institute ⁠website for more information on IRT, including training for mental health professionals.

Timestamps:

• (2:35) Overview of the positions of SASB, starting with  cluster 2 (“I’m ok and you’re ok”)
• (5:09) Cluster 3 - love
• (8:39) Cluster 4 - protect/teach 
• (13:08) Cluster 5 - control
• (19:17) Cluster 6 - blame 
• (30:29) Cluster 7 - attack  
• (38:59) Cluster 8 - ignore
• (47:14) Cluster 1 - emancipate

References:

• Benjamin, L. S. (2018). Interpersonal Reconstructive Therapy for Anger, Anxiety and Depression: It’s about broken hearts, not broken brains. American Psychological Association (APA).
• Critchfield, K. L., & Benjamin, L. S. (2024). Structural analysis of social behavior: A primer for clinical use. American Psychological Association (APA).

Summary:

Welcome back! In today's episode, we give a general overview of some key terms and concepts underlying IRT as both a theory of psychopathology and a principles-based therapy approach. We discuss the goals of therapy in IRT, how to identify maladaptive behaviors linked to loved ones, and how to help build the adaptive part of the self that is able to let go and (you guessed it!) love differently. We also define key concepts unique to IRT, such as copy processes and the gift of love (GOL), and how they are incorporated into a case formulation.

We discuss the contentious label of "treatment resistance" within the mental health community and provide a re-frame of how mental illness can be understood through an IRT lens.

If you like this episode, please subscribe, like, and share with your friends. Let us know what you want to hear us talk about in future episodes - we are listening! Check out the ⁠IRT Institute ⁠website for more information on IRT, including training for mental health professionals.

Timestamps:

• (04:40) - Definition of ‘symptoms’ from an IRT point of view 
• (05:16) - Red and Green parts of the self
• (08:30) - Goal of IRT - the adaptive self
• (13:10) - SASB description of Green behaviors
• (13:40) - SASB description of Red behaviors
• (18:00) - Function of enacting Red 
• (19:10) - Love, protection, and approval 
• (20:49) - Reframing treatment resistance
• (21:57) - GOL, defined
• (26:35) - Introjection as copy process
• (28:00) - Recapitulation as copy process
• (34:20) - Case formulation components in IRT
• 
  

References:

• Benjamin, L.S. Interpersonal Diagnosis and Treatment of Personality Disorder. N.Y: Guilford Press. 1st edition, 1993; 2nd 1996; paperback 2003.
• Benjamin, L. S. Interpersonal Reconstructive Therapy (IRT): an integrative personality-based treatment for complex cases. New York: Guilford Press. (2003; paperback edition 2006)
• Benjamin, L.S. (2018). Interpersonal Reconstructive Therapy for Anger, Anxiety and Depression: It’s about Broken Hearts, Not Broken Brains. Washington, D. C.: American Psychological Association

Summary:

In this premiere episode of Loving Differently, clinical psychologists Dr. Ken Critchfield and Dr. Eliza Stucker-Rozovsky introduce listeners to the spirit of Interpersonal Reconstructive Therapy (IRT)—a way of understanding how our earliest relationships shape the patterns of love we repeat throughout life. Through stories of mentorship under IRT founder Lorna Smith Benjamin and their own paths into the field, Ken and Eliza explore what it means to “love differently”: to move beyond blame, understand the meaning behind behavior, and transform even painful attachment patterns into growth and connection.

If you like this episode, please subscribe, like, and share with your friends. Let us know what you want to hear us talk about in future episodes - we are listening!

Check out the IRT Institute website for more information on IRT, including training for mental health professionals.