Macro N Cheese

There's an oft-repeated Chris Hedges quote that goes: “I do not fight fascists because I will win. I fight fascists because they are fascists.” Well, that’s how we feel about the banks. Revolutionary change is only possible when people understand the institutions of power. The banking system plays a huge role in perpetuating class division and disciplining labor. 

Christopher Shaw is the author of Money, Power, and the People. He talks to Steve about America’s long struggle to democratize banking, drawing connections between past and present economic conditions and inequalities. The discussion spans the creation of the Federal Reserve, populist movements, and key moments of financial reform from the Gilded Age to the New Deal. 

Delving into the history of banking and economic injustice, he emphasizes grassroots movements led by farmers, workers, and unions against banking oligarchies. Key periods include the post-Civil War Gilded Age, the Panic of 1907, and the Great Depression. The conversation transitions to recent times, highlighting the deregulation era, the rise of neoliberalism, and movements like Occupy Wall Street. As always Steve challenges the audience to learn from history, stressing that real change requires collective action. 

Christopher W. Shaw is a historian, author, and policy analyst. He has written extensively on the postal system, and the history of banking, money, labor, agriculture, and social movements. Most recently, he has authored First Class: The U.S. Postal Service, Democracy, and the Corporate Threat (City Lights Books, 2021) as well as Money, Power, and the People: The American Struggle to Make Banking Democratic (University of Chicago Press, 2019).  

@chris_w_shaw on Twitter

The podcast focuses on the critical need to address the root causes of health and environmental crises, emphasizing that many diseases, including cancer, are largely influenced by environmental factors and capitalism's exploitative nature. Hamza Hamouchene talks about his reasons for leaving a career in cancer research, highlighting the disillusionment he faced when he realized that the focus was on profit rather than genuine health solutions.

Hamza and Steve make a case against a capitalist system that not only externalizes costs related to health and the environment but also perpetuates inequities, particularly affecting marginalized communities. They delve into interconnected struggles from climate justice to the fight against imperialism, and stress the importance of collective action and the need for a revolutionary vision that prioritizes social and economic justice. Ultimately, the episode serves as a call to action for listeners to engage in grassroots movements and challenge the status quo, advocating for an ecosocialist future where health and environmental care are public goods rather than commodities.

Hamza Hamouchene is a London-based Algerian researcher-activist, commentator and a founding member of Algeria Solidarity Campaign (ASC), and Environmental Justice North Africa (EJNA). He previously worked for War on Want, Global Justice Now and Platform London on issues of extractivism, resources, land and food sovereignty as well as climate, environmental, and trade justice. 

This episode features sharp commentary on the current geopolitical landscape, exploring why China continues to thrive despite the chaotic shifting of US policies. 

Our friend Carl Zha brings his vast knowledge of China and delves into the shifting global dynamics with the US. He and Steve examine the absurdity of the US government's approach to trade, particularly the impact of tariffs and sanctions on its own economy, while China strategically positions itself as a rising power.  

Steve likens the US to a schoolyard bully caught off-guard, while Carl offers insights into China's long-term planning and adaptability in the face of external pressures. The discussion touches on various aspects, from economic strategies to cultural perceptions. They engage in a broad critique of the US leadership’s focus on military dominance while it fails to invest in domestic infrastructure.  

Carl Zha hosts Silk and Steel, a weekly podcast discussing history, culture, and current events of China and the Silk Road. Support him at patreon.com/silknsteel. His YouTube channel is https://www.youtube.com/@CarlZha. 

As difficult as it is to get a handle on the chaos and confusion of Trump’s shifting policies, we continue to ask wise friends for their perspective. This week Steve is speaking with Australian economist Bill Mitchell, a founder of MMT and a regular guest of this podcast. Bill helps us unpack the capitalist contradictions driving global instability.

Steve asks if we should be looking at Trump’s actions as a continuation of the neoliberal trajectory as described in Bill’s book, Reclaiming the State. Bill replies that he doesn't even see it as a natural extension of neoliberalism:

“Neoliberalism is about co-opting the state to pursue advantage for selected groups in the society, the top end of town, as I call them. So there's an element of that, but there's sort of a deep irrationality going on here. Neoliberalism is a systematic, contrived pattern of behavior and strategy, whereas it's hard to assess whether there is anything systematic and strategic going on here.”

Bill elaborates on the irrational policy decisions like tariffs and their failure to revive American manufacturing, as well as the repercussions of reduced public investment in education and infrastructure. He talks about international reactions and global repercussions.  

He and Steve also critique the role of social media and the dangerous effects of the dominant ideological bias. Bill suggests that the disillusionment with traditional political parties is driving many towards reactionary extremism. They discuss the severe decline in education and the move to control universities through ideological audits.

Bill Mitchell is a Professor in Economics and Director of the Centre of Full Employment and Equity (CofFEE), at the University of Newcastle, NSW, Australia. His most recent books are Modern Monetary Theory: BIll and Warren’s Excellent Adventure, co-authored with Warren Mosler (2024), and the Modern Monetary Theory textbook, Macroeconomics, co-authored with L. Randall Wray and Martin Watts (2019).

Follow Bill’s work at https://billmitchell.org/blog/

The past year has seen lots of discussion of the ‘human’ nature of AI. Programs like ChatGPT were writing poetry, engaging in debates, and roasting users with witty retorts. Educators have been facing more serious concerns as they navigate a world in which students no longer need to learn to do their own research, writing, or thinking. But the militarization of AI makes these other activities seem like Donkey Kong. 

Investigative journalist Peter Byrne joins Steve to talk about the treacherous relationship between technology, capitalism, and militarization. They discuss how companies like Palantir, funded by figures such as Peter Thiel, have leveraged vast amounts of capital—often government-funded—to develop this militarized AI. In other words, venture capitalists and tech startups are shaping modern warfare.

Peter draws historical parallels, explaining that the automation of warfare is not a new phenomenon but has evolved significantly since the days of analog computers in World War II. It only increases its destructive capabilities by unthinkable magnitudes. 

We would do well to remember that machine learning models are incapable of achieving true intelligence. They reflect the ideology and interests of those who are responsible for them.

Peter Byrne is an award-winning investigative science reporter who has long uncovered corruption at the nexus of science and industry. Now, in partnership with Project Censored, Byrne has launched Military AI Watch, a groundbreaking ten-part series that will run monthly on Project Censored’s website.

https://www.projectcensored.org/military-ai-watch/

Like most media nowadays, we seek to make sense of the confusing, contradictory, and often absurd Trump policies. So of course we turn to our best friend and most frequent guest, economist Fadhel Kaboub.

Fadhel suggests that Trump has two missions: reinforcing the US imperialist-dominant position that is currently under threat, and reinforcing his legacy, the MAGA movement, and the supremacy of the Republican Party for years to come. Ironically there are even two Elon Musks in the White House: 

In their discussion, Fadhel points out the absurdity of thinking tariffs will “bring back jobs” to the US. He also explains that companies like Apple aren’t manufacturing in China for cheap labor, but because China has the high-skilled workers. Instead of investing in education in the US, Trump boasts of making cuts.

Fadhel explains that Trump’s negotiation strategy relies on creating chaos and confusion. In comparison, China’s path is starkly different, including creation of the digital yuan as an international payment system to bypass SWIFT and the dollar.

Fadhel and Steve remind us that both US political parties are guilty of perpetuating the false narrative of fiscal constraints. As always, listeners are challenged to question the prevailing mainstream rhetoric and look for the deeper motivations behind it.

Fadhel Kaboub is an associate professor of economics at Denison University (presently on leave) and the president of the Global Institute for Sustainable Prosperity. He’s the author of Global South Perspectives on Substack.

Find his work at globalsouthperspectives.substack.com 

@FadhelKaboub on Twitter 

This week’s episode comes from Steve’s recent appearance on The Tracy Show, where he was invited to talk about MMT with host Tracy Carson, who had some questions.

Actually, it wasn’t the only thing Tracy understood. She knew that states rely on taxes, unlike the federal government. She knew that federal budget deficits are not a crisis. And she knew that those simple facts have huge implications for the government’s ability to provide national health care, for example, while state-based health care is virtually impossible and propels a race to the bottom. In a nation that has spent $8 trillion on war, post 9/11, there is no excuse for poverty. There’s an explanation, but no excuse.  

The conversation covers the destruction of essential services through deliberate under-funding, with austerity as a policy choice. They look at the illusion of the “national debt” at home as well as IMF manipulation of the global South. 

Many of us have experienced moments when we clearly recognize the truth yet lack the knowledge or language to explain it. In seeking the tools to fully articulate it, Tracy is actively moving herself beyond those moments. We should all be so motivated. Learning MMT is a process. Others will hear about it from her and begin their own journey. When it comes to knowledge, there are no resource constraints. #EachOneTeachOne 

Tracy Carson is the host of The Tracy Show and an organizer of the March for Medicare for All in her home state of Indiana.  

Erald Kolasi joins Steve to talk about his book, The Physics of Capitalism. Erald’s interdisciplinary approach merges economics, technology, energy, and ecological dynamics. He explains that science can provide facts and data about the world, but to address the challenges we need to go beyond physics. Solutions will depend on the political, economic, and social spheres.

The discussion includes the flaws of neoclassical economic models, the limitations of technological innovation in solving ecological crises, and the necessity of systemic changes for a sustainable future. Erald describes a vision for a new political and economic order that emphasizes ecological stability, socialization, modularity, and localized production.

Erald Kolasi is a writer and researcher focusing on the nexus between energy, technology, economics, complex systems, and ecological dynamics. His book, The Physics of Capitalism, came out from Monthly Review Press in February 2025. He received his PhD in Physics from George Mason University in 2016. You can find out more about Erald and his work at his website, www.eraldkolasi.com.

Crazy things have been going on with the price of eggs, especially in the US. If you think this is happening because of the avian flu, you’ve been hoodwinked. Again. 

Basel Musharbash, an antitrust and trade regulation attorney, joins Steve to pull back the curtain on the monopoly forces within the egg supply chain. The discussion reveals crucial and surprising information about this, um, bread and butter issue.  

The episode explores the role of avian flu and how it has been weaponized by a few corporations to tighten their stranglehold on the market. With just three companies controlling crucial choke points in the egg supply chain, Basel explains how these oligopolies are not merely reacting to external pressures but are actively manipulating supply.   

Steve and Basel also look at the historical context of antitrust laws and how their erosion has led to the current monopolist landscape. 

Once again, consumers are getting screwed by an industry whose structure is designed to do just that. 

Basel Musharbash is an antitrust and trade regulation lawyer with a focus on building stronger rural economies. He represents family farmers, small businesses, and local governments (as well as groups working on their behalf) in regulatory advocacy and impact litigation aimed at righting the wrongs of concentrated corporate power in rural America — and building a free and fair economy for all. 

His work has been covered in or on Reuters, AP, Time Magazine, CNBC, The Today Show, Politico, The American Prospect, DTN-PF, Daily Yonder, and other media outlets. 

@musharbash_b on Twitter 

Steve’s guest is noted economist L. Randall Wray, one of the early developers of modern money theory. As many times as this podcast has talked about MMT, it’s always topical. In fact, just last week, Elon Musk discovered 14 magic money computers in government agencies! 

So, Trump had to hire the richest man in the world who hired who knows how many hundreds of young tech kids to discover what we've been saying for 30 years, which is that Congress appropriates money, and then the computers keystroke it into people's accounts. 

There's no mystery about this at all, but they think they've discovered not only something that people didn't know, but something that's, oh, it's so scary. It's nefarious that the government uses computers to increase the size of people's accounts. Well, that's spending. That's the way it's done. 

Clearly, this is a good time to revisit the valuable insights of MMT and look at the implications for building a society that serves its people. 

This episode dives deep into the fundamentals, debunking misconceptions about government spending, the role of taxes, and the myth that the US government can run out of money, like a household.  

Randy and Steve talk about changes in the economy due to financialization, and the difference between budget constraints and inflation constraints. Randy explains why we need to look at the history of debt in order to understand money. He talks about banking, including transactions between the Federal Reserve and the Treasury.  

The conversation breaks down complex concepts into relatable terms, sometimes with a touch of humor.

Illustrating the creation of currency, Randy describes an imaginary scenario in which the fictional characters Robinson Crusoe and Friday devise a currency to facilitate barter. 

Randy: So, they come up with the idea of, ‘hey, we can use seashells as a medium of exchange.’ And this is where money came from. It was Robinson Crusoe and Friday. Okay, think about this a little bit. It's pretty bizarre. We've got Crusoe and Friday marooned on a desert island. I can think of two much more likely scenarios. Okay, one, Crusoe came from Europe. What do Europeans do when they come across native people? 

Steve: Kill them. 

Anyone with an interest in how the economy truly operates will learn something from this episode.

L. Randall Wray is a Professor of Economics at the Levy Economics Institute of Bard College, and Emeritus Professor at University of Missouri-Kansas City. He is one of the developers of Modern Money Theory and his newest book on the topic is Understanding Modern Money Theory: Money and Credit in Capitalist Economies (Elgar), forthcoming in spring 2025.  

Recent books on MMT include Making Money Work for Us (Polity, November 2022), a companion illustrated guide, Money For Beginners (Polity, May 2023, with Levy Institute graduate Heske Van Doornen), and the third edition of Modern Money Theory: A Primer on Macroeconomics for Sovereign Monetary Systems (Springer, 2024). He is also the author of Why Minsky Matters (Princeton, 2015) as well as the author, co-author, and editor of many other books. 

Find more of his work at levyinstitute.org