Man Up / Man Down

This podcast episode of "Man Up / Man Down" features Chris Stein, the interim CEO of Father's Development Foundation and Director of Marketing, Fundraising, and Communications at Future Men. Chris has nearly two decades of experience working with at-risk youth, young offenders, expectant fathers, and in the field of men's mental health. The conversation delves into the changing landscape of men's health issues and masculinity.

Chris begins by sharing his career journey, starting with his desire to work with young people. He highlights the under-appreciation and low funding in youth services, emphasising their vital role as a bridge between family and school. Chris's early work involved integrating community services into schools, focusing on drugs, alcohol, sexual health, and mental health. He notes the significant overrepresentation of boys and young men in school exclusions and the criminal justice system.

The discussion then moves to Chris's work in youth offending services, where he dealt with young people exhibiting multiple and complex needs, often leading to aggression and violence. He emphasises the importance of understanding the underlying fear and unmet needs driving these behaviours. Chris also talks about the importance of vulnerability in young men, challenging the limited emotional expressions traditionally allowed for them.

Chris further discusses his work at Future Men, a London-based charity supporting boys, young men, and men during transitional life moments. He outlines various programs they offer, including the Boys Development Program for skills like communication and conflict management, and programs for fathers that focus on practical parenting skills, mental health, and the societal role of fathers.

A significant part of the conversation focuses on masculinity. Chris shares insights from focus groups with boys and fathers, revealing traditional norms among younger groups and a shift in priorities among fathers. He notes the impact of cultural, religious, and socioeconomic factors on perceptions of masculinity.

The podcast touches on the importance of statutory paternity leave and mental health screenings for fathers, highlighting the structural challenges men face in fulfilling their roles as parents. Chris argues for a more inclusive and supportive approach towards fatherhood, emphasising the importance of corporate social responsibility in supporting charitable organisations like Future Men.

Chris concludes by outlining Future Men's philosophy, which centres around seven positive characteristics of masculinity: empathy, curiosity, nonviolence, inclusiveness, resourcefulness, resilience, and reflectiveness. He stresses that these traits are essential for all individuals, not just men. The episode ends with Chris inviting listeners to engage with Future Men's work and attend their events for further discussion and involvement in these critical issues.

You can find out more here: www.futuremen.org

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Ian Sanders runs his storytelling, coaching and creativity/ work life design business. He’s the author of five books on working life including his latest, 365 Ways To Have a Good Day. Ian is resolutely independent, curious, open-minded, and rebel-spirited, and that’s led to a pretty unconventional career. It’s also given him a unique perspective on what makes people and organisations tick.

His current gigs range from training leadership teams at global organisations in the art of storytelling, to being an instructor for Simon Sinek’s Optimism Company, where he runs his Redesign Your Work Day class.

He starts with telling his story how he jumped into a lake as he finished a conference in Bavaria, Germany. Ian says that reaching middle age is a turning point, stepping into the Real Me. He describes how he was feeling overwhelmed with his workload. But instead of jumping on the wi-fi to check his email, he jumped into a lake instead.

This turned out to be a life-changing moment for him, realising that he should and wanted to do the things that really mattered in his life as opposed to things that we were told to do or what would be within the “norm“.

This lead to him getting a tattoo of the lake, his first one at 54.

You can find his talk here.

It‘s an honest and raw story, resonating with many leaders in organisations, building trust and connection. As a storyteller, Ian is empathetic, honest, and raw and shows his emotions. Something we have lost a little bit in today‘s society. This resonates with both David and Volker, and we are sure with most middle-aged men.

He has been depressive and he finds that for many years ago he couldn‘t talk about it. However things have changed. His therapy was sharing his story, influencing others, and giving others the validation to do their own thing.

Volker speaks about the poem ‘This Be the Verse’ by Philip Larkin. “They fuck you up, your mum and dad.“

We talk about the age-old belief that men “shouldn‘t cry or show their emotions.”  We discuss that it is still a stigma that “boys don‘t cry” but we should be encouraged to show emotions to our children but also ourselves.

As David says, you are “papering over the cracks“ by ignoring emotions and teaching the wrong things.

Ian suggests that he went back to being a bit more like he was in his teenage years. That resonates as you start losing yourself in the next stage in your life, when you start following that career path which is often forced upon us.

And mid-life often gives us the realisation and means to be the person we wanted to be all along. Whether that is in relation to tattoos, or pure fulfilment of our inner needs.

If it matters, make time for it – that‘s Ian‘s mantra. Whether that is the coffee in his local coffee shop or being present with the kids. Ian, similar to Volker has a gratitude journal, focusing on the positive things in his daily life.

You can find Ian on Instagram at @iansanders and www.iansanders.com.

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Caroline Williams is a medical journalist, who has written for a range of mainstream publications and medical journals, including The Atlantic, the BBC, The Boston Globe, The Guardian, New Scientist and The New York Times.

She is also author of Move!: The New Science of Body Over Mind.

However, David discovered Caroline after reading her article for the New Scientist, What’s behind the recent explosion in ADHD?. Not only was it very well written, but David was able to relate to the story behind the article – where Caroline had been diagnosed as having ADHD in her 40s.

While this led to some lively discussion between David and Caroline, Volker got completely lost as the conversation jumped around so much (which David was certainly unaware of – a great example of the difference between a neurotypical and neurodiverse brain!).

Through her career as a medical writer, writing about focus and concentration, and often finding herself distracted, Caroline realised she might have ADHD herself – receiving an official diagnosis at the tender age of 48.

She was often told at school and by her parents that she was overactive or couldn’t concentrate. Now that we, as a society, started talking more about it, she got more support to look into it.

Caroline went to the New Scientist to write about ADHD. She wanted to investigate whether, as some journalists have claimed, that diagnoses are rocketing due to private diagnosis, where it’s in the organisation’s financial interests. However, Caroline’s research has revealed that we are still under-diagnosing in the UK.

Volker still doesn’t understand ADHD due to lack of experience, but enjoyed David and Caroline having such an animated conversation.

Both Caroline and David just got on with life and what was thrown at them, thinking it was normal that certain things just take a bit longer. Caroline compared it to getting glasses when you suddenly realise that the world you are living in is blurred and that buildings have straight edges. Caroline is now on a test for medication to help her with ADHD.

For both it’s difficult to judge how long a piece of work might take; everyday things like parking and remembering where you parked, can be a challenge. Or supermarket shopping can be challenging too, resulting in increased stress.

They share a lot of tips on how to organise themselves. Whilst Volker is super organised, this adds another level of organisation even for him.

As Caroline points out, don’t beat yourself up for not doing everything 100%. It’s ok that there are things that might not work every time, and that‘s ok. Accepting your brain is different to a neurotypical person.

There is also a quicker route to get an ADHD diagnosis. Go to your GP and ask for a referral under the NHS right to choose.

And if you want to get in touch with Caroline please reach out to her or want to read or buy her books, please visit www.carolinewilliams.net or follow her on Instagram @carolinewilliams_science

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This is the second part of our live recording, which took place in Brighton at the end of November.

Our panel included Louise Chunn, CEO of our sponsor Welldoing, Stewart Cumming, head of operations at Dad La Soul and Mick Rigby, CEO of Yodel Mobile (who recorded a great episode with us in the first season, discussing his dyslexia and ADHD diagnosis in his 50s).

We weren’t expecting so much engagement from the audience (which we were absolutely delighted with), so apologies if the audio isn’t as clear when it comes to audience discussions – this will certainly be improved for future events.

The audience expressed a range of views and charged the debate.

These were the views of individuals and not necessarily ones that represent Volker and David, but it was clear that there is a lot of confusion about what exactly a man’s role is in 2023/24.

Topics that were discussed were:

·      Why do men not talk as much as they need to?

·      Do men still feel weak discussing their vulnerabilities?

·      Is it a weakness to discuss vulnerabilities?

·      What is the role of employers in helping men and women with mental health support?

·      How easy is it for an employee to raise concerns about their mental health or neurodiversity issues?

·      What role does social media play in causing confusion in the role men play in modern society (should we be more masculine, more vulnerable, a better financial provider, provide more emotional support)?

·      What emotional support do we expect from our partners as “traditional male/female roles” become blurred?

·      What impact did the pandemic and lockdown have on us?

·      What responsibility do we need to take for our own mental health?

A big thanks again to our sponsors Fat Fish Digital Infigo and Welldoing and everyone that took the time and money to join us for the event.

Keep your eyes peeled for the next one in 2024!

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Christmas special: LIVE recording part one – a roundtable discussion on what it means to be a man in 2023/24

This special episode is the first part of our live recording, which took place in Brighton at the end of November.

Our panel included Louise Chunn, CEO of our sponsor Welldoing, Stewart Cumming, head of operations at Dad La Soul and Mick Rigby, CEO of Yodel Mobile (who recorded a great episode with us in the first season, discussing his dyslexia and ADHD diagnosis in his 50s.

During Louise’s keynote address, she discussed the changing landscape of men’s mental health and how Princes William and Harry had driven the conversation forward by discussing their mental health challenges.

She also praised the work Volker and David had done in encouraging men to talk through the podcast.

We weren’t expecting so much engagement from the audience (which we were absolutely delighted with), so apologies if the audio isn’t as clear when it comes to audience discussions – this will certainly be improved for future events.

The audience expressed a range of views and charged the debate.

These were the views of individuals and not necessarily ones that represent Volker and David, but it was clear that there is a lot of confusion about what exactly a man’s role is in 2023/24.

Topics that were discussed were:

·      Why do men not talk as much as they need to?

·      Do men still feel weak discussing their vulnerabilities?

·      Is it a weakness to discuss vulnerabilities?

·      What is the role of employers in helping men and women with mental health support?

·      How easy is it for an employee to raise concerns about their mental health or neurodiversity issues?

·      What role does social media play in causing confusion in the role men play in modern society (should we be more masculine, more vulnerable, a better financial provider, provide more emotional support)?

·      What emotional support do we expect from our partners as “traditional male/female roles” become blurred?

·      What impact did the pandemic and lockdown have on us?

·      What responsibility do we need to take for our own mental health?

A big thanks again to our sponsors Fat Fish Digital Infigo and Welldoing and everyone that took the time and money to join us for the event.

Keep your eyes peeled for the next one in 2024!

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Another first for Man Up / Man Down. Our first returning guest.

Andy Delderfield runs the Alcohol Free Runners Facebook community and also coaches those interested in the alcohol-free lifestyle, but need one-to-one support.

Andy came on the podcast last year to tell is about his amazing transformation from booze-guzzling rugby fanatic to alcohol-free (4 years and counting), vegan, ultra runner.

Sadly, at the time, Andy had also been recently diagnosed with prostate cancer. But rather than taking it easy, while receiving intensive treatment, Andy decided to enter a 250km multi-day, ultra event. Running across the Namibia desert.

Andy explained that it had been an eventful year, and that it had only been two weeks since his diagnosis when we recorded the first interview, so he had still been processing the diagnosis.

Andy spoke about the range of emotions that he’d felt at the diagnosis: fear and uncertainty; confusion anger.

He said one of the issues was that he’d gone for a check up to see precisely how healthy he was after many years of “clean living.”

As expected, his blood pressure, cholesterol and all other health indicators were fine. However, the tests revealed the possibility of prostate cancer, which proved to be correct.

Andy said that men do need to be a lot more proactive about getting screened, particularly as men don’t visit the doctor as much as women; for a variety of reasons.

However, he said his experience as a Positive Psychology Coach helped him through – sticking to the advice he’d give to his clients when they’re overwhelmed.

This was to “control the controllable.” Obviously, he couldn’t control what was going on in his body lots and lots of different emotions that kind of came through um when I got that diagnosis. But he could control how he reacted.

Andy said he was overwhelmed with information, which goes into a lot of worst-case scenarios. Essentially, he was left with two options – have the prostate removed (which would require invasive surgery) or targeted radiotherapy.

While the radiotherapy had its own side effects, this was the option Andy went for – mainly because he’d already entered the Desert Ultra and didn’t want his treatment to rule him out!

Andy then told us about the Desert Ultra. Despite training in Spain (where he lives), Andy said the heat impacted him more than he was expecting and thought he might have to give up mere kilometres into the race.

He said that the negative thoughts entered his head – that he shouldn’t be there, that he didn’t deserve to be there.

Thankfully, after intense rehydration, Andy got past that first check post and completed the race.

To hear the full account of Andy’s hugely inspiring battle against cancer and the blistering heat, check out the episode.

He is also raising money for Prostate Cancer UK, so please donate here.

You can also see his brutally honest video diaries in his Facebook group and Instagram account.

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After 20 years in advertising agencies working with lots of well known, and highly demanding, brands, Andrew suffered severe burnout. Andrew re-found his direction and purpose in life through therapy and coaching. This resulted in him leaving the corporate world, taking a Masters in Organisational Psychology and qualifying as an Associate Certified Coach with the ICF.

From there he set up The Midlife Coach focusing on supporting men struggling or stuck in midlife. For the past three years he's worked with a wide range of midlife men. This includes those on the verge of depression, desperate to rediscover the joy in life, to energetic self-starters looking to build their own meaningful legacy through work and family - and everything in between.

They come from all backgrounds and professions with very different needs and goals. What unites them is that they have reached the realisation that they are stuck in a rut and cannot break out of it alone.

Andrew speaks about his background in advertising which led to a breakdown, with him crying  on the kitchen floor, going through therapy, dealing with grief and eventually discovering what he wanted to do as a new career.

He said that the main takeaway is The massive learning was that he could change his life. Comparing life to a swimming pool, he says you cannot change where you jump in, but you can swim down the lane and change direction.

He set up his own coaching business in order to help people changing their life. Our generation starts figuring out what the term ‚being a dad actually means. Our fathers didn‘t show emotions or spoke about what they wanted in life necessarily. As a result our generation is figuring out what it really means to be a dad that is in touch with our emotions – learnings that we can pass on to our children to be better parents than we were.

We discuss legacy and how even organisations today try to be more ‘wholesome‘ and make a difference. That legacy seems to be a common theme in middle aged men.

We also discussed how there is a trade between any role that we take up – if we want to spend more time with our children, that might require a financial sacrifice. However, if we’re working all the time, to provide a better life for our family, that means we might not necessarily see them.

It‘s not only about balance in life but more about having control and being choiceful of what we want to do with our time. However, it‘s about making a conscious choice rather than compromising.

Burnout, according to Andrew, comes from reactivity and losing that control in life.

David quotes Benjamin Disraeli, that: “Action may not always bring happiness; but there is no happiness without action.”

As Andrew says, we shouldn‘t feel regret of things we did in life, and we shouldn‘t be paralysed by our dreams. In coaching he can utilise his experience and help others to get unstuck, and understand mid life. Mid Life is about making decisions and taking control back in your life. And often, time is all kids need from us.

You can find Andrew as the Midlife Coach on Facebook, LinkedIn or www.midlife-coach.co.uk

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Stuart is someone that David has known for more than a decade. They met when David joined East Grinstead Triathlon and Stuart was membership secretary.

At the start of the training season, the club offers a series of talks on how to improve performances. During David’s first season Stuart delivered a talk on how your mindset can impact your performance.

For example, Stuart described a situation where you turn up to a race and the weather is awful. The natural reaction for most competitors is for their heads to go down. However, Stuart said, this can give you an advantage.

If you accept that you can’t change the conditions and take into account that it’s put your fellow competitors into a negative mindset, then it puts you at an advantage. In short – it’s not what life throws at you, it’s how you react to it.

However, it wasn’t until a few years later that David discovered that Stuart’s profession wasn’t in sports performance but in sales performance, as the managing director of sales consultancy SBR.

Stuart says that while he is now a highly demand consultant, the majority of learning came from being in the sales trenches.

Stuart started his sales career, some might argue at the lowest level of the sale world, by knocking on residential doors selling aerial photographs of people’s homes. He stayed there for over 10 years working his way through the ranks to be the International Head of sales.

Now he demystifies the process of business development by working with organisations (ranging from Google to TikTok) and assessing the most appropriate sales process for their respective audience.

However, Stuart has also taken on a range of endurance challenges such as a multi-day marathon endurance race across the Sahara (the Marathon des Sables), a race to the North pole and numerous Ironman triathlons.

David said that he has always felt inspired by Stuart’s passion for adventure and new experiences, which this year alone have included a biking trip round Cuba, a road trip round Spain. In short Stuart never seems to stop!

David asked where this positive mindset came from – was it something he developed through his sales experience, or did he always have this approach to life?

Stuart says the first time he became aware of this was when he was booked in for his driving test - on Friday 13th. Stuart said that as soon as he saw the date, he thought “I’ve got this”.

After passing the test, the examiner mentioned that he was surprised Stuart turned up, as so many had cancelled due to the date. Stuart said this approach helped him a lot when he entered the world of sales. Stating that he realised (and the data supports this) that many salespeople give up after the first couple of approaches. So, when you’re prepared to put in a little more effort (such as making extra prospecting calls), you automatically put yourself ahead of the field.

Stuart said this was the approach then transferred into running and triathlon.

[...]

If you want to reach out to Stuart, you can do that via his LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/stuartlotherington/

He also recommends taking a look at some of SBR’s content on goal setting.

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Marc Convey’s story is one of the most inspiring tales you are likely to hear – it certainly was for us. Despite suffering life-altering injuries from a devastating fire, at the age of 14, when he was given a 3% chance of survival Marc's strength and determination have turned him into a beacon of hope worldwide.

He shares his story and insights as a powerful speaker, promoting mental health, wellness, and resilience when chasing your dreams. Marc is also an accomplished entrepreneur and creative professional, bringing his unique talents to various industries. Discover how his passion and expertise can help you achieve your goals.

Back in 1992, Mac was visiting family in Ireland. Despite the age old warning of not to play with matches, Marc accidentally started a fire in his Uncle’s garage, which contained petrol.

Due to the remote location of his uncle’s house, and a severe storm, Marc was lucky to make it to hospital. But he continued to beat the odds,

Suffering significant injuries, painful dressing changes every 2 hours and being unable to see due to bandaging Marc refused to give up. Marc says that there were two things that carried him through – the support of his mum, who was his primary carer for 5 years – and an incredibly stubborn attitude.

When he finally well enough to fly back to London, he was put into a specialist burns unit with a doctor who Marc formed a bond with (describing him as a ‘mad professor’). Despite being told that it would be at least year before he could return to school, Marc was determined not to drop down a year.

And he didn’t.

He outright refused to give up, and adapted as best he could, which included him learning to write with his left hand. Despite suffering horrendous trauma, Marc states that he has never suffered from post traumatic stress (PTSD).

Marc hasn’t had any nightmares, and he wants to use his book to raise awareness that trauma doesn’t have to define you; we shouldn’t put people into categories. What helped him was mindfulness which he discovered through hypnotherapy.

Mark’s parents were shocked when he announced that he wanted to leave his school, which had made many adaptations for him, as he flet it wasn’t healthy to “live in a bubble”. He went to a Sixth Form College where he didn’t know many people, despite the fact that he was wearing a clear plastic mask to protect his skin.

Mark surprised his parents further by announcing that he wanted to go to University, despite being told just a few years previously that he’d probably need 24 hour care.

But Marc he wanted to live his own life and set his own goals.

[...] Fast forwarding to today, he is writing a book about his story and talks about positive mindset; sharing his experience and journey to find himself for the past 30 years, resulting in him now having the right mindset and confidence to help others.

The stage of mid-life transition and Covid made a lot of us think about what we really want in life and what is important to us.

We will have Marc back once he wrote his book and hopefully join at one of our next events.

You can find out more about Marc and reach out to him on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/marc-convey/ or via his website www.marcconvey.com (coming soon).

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This is a topic that David and Volker have discussed quite a bit in private, so felt it was finally time to record a conversation for the podcast. We discussed how you deal with your “babies” becoming young adults.

David’s youngest child starts secondary school in September, so he’s busy checking out local schools. It’s a stark indicator that the children are growing up fast. Volker’s sons are now at secondary school.

We discussed how once your children start high school, they are exposed to a whole range of new influences. However, there are things we got up to as teenagers but wouldn’t necessarily want our children doing. Volker says that he was already drinking and smoking at the age of 15.

We also discussed, how our children grow up differently to how we grew up. Volker says his oldest exercises 5-7 times a week and doesn’t show any interest in unhealthy activities such as smoking. 

Is this because Volker’s sons see him exercising regularly and therefore view it as “normal”? Neither Volker or David’s parents took part in the activities they have (such as marathons and triathlons).

Volker also says he talks more with his boys than his dad ever talked to him, so therefore has a much closer relationship. We also discussed that while there seems to be a greater focus on health and exercise, there can be greater on boys to have “the perfect physique” due to social media.

We also discussed how porn is a lot easier to access than it was in pre-internet days. David said that when it came to his daughter, he was concerned about sharing intimate pictures in the future, with a boyfriend, which could then be used as “revenge porn.”

Volker talks a lot about his parenting style and they both speak about how proud they are of both their children, forming bonds and giving them enough space to learn from their own experience. And every child is different and unique, which is super important to remember – so what is a suitable school for one child may not be suitable for another.

They discuss whether they are too harsh to their children, seeing as they have grown up in a more privileged situation than David and Volker did. However, both agree that their children need to learn that items, such as iPhones need to be earned.

However, we also discussed how phones give our ‘babies’ freedom as we can keep tabs on them through their phone location and talk to them at any time.

Sign up for our LIVE EVENT in BRIGHTON on the 28th of November.

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