Messy Middlescence

In this episode, Tara and Tina explore the longing so many of us feel for a simple gathering ritual — and the very real challenges that keep us from creating one. Inspired by Samin Nosrat’s reflections on the power of regular connection, they talk honestly about hosting anxieties, perfection pressure, and why gathering feels both beautiful and hard. A warm conversation about presence, friendship, and designing rituals that fit real life.

Earlier this fall, Tina accidentally found herself following Samin Nosrat’s entire media tour. Nosrat — the author of the bestselling cookbook and Netflix series Salt, Fat, Acid, Heat — has a new cookbook out called Good Things, and by pure coincidence Tina kept stumbling onto interviews, articles, and podcasts about her. What stayed with her wasn’t the recipes. It was the message underneath them. In each interview and article, Nosrat tells the same story with the same message. She describes how after years of work she finally achieved everything she had ever dreamed of with Salt, Fat, Acid, Heat — and yet she was completely miserable. A regularly scheduled dinner party literally saved her life. She learned that gathering the people you care about is essential to a meaningful life. And the focus of her new book is all about bringing people together. Gathering is what is important and needed in our lives — it is not the food, not the table, nor all the little details we can get hung up on. Her eloquent and persuasive advocacy for connecting through regular gatherings is downright compelling.

Around the same time, Tara came across an article in The Atlantic titled “Americans Need to Party More,” which stated that “only 4% of Americans attended or hosted a social event on an average weekend or holiday in 2023.” According to the article, this is a 35% decrease since 2004. Both Tina and Tara were shocked by this statistic.

And here’s where the tension comes in. We both love the idea of a gathering ritual — something steady, comforting, simple, and woven into the rhythm of our lives. It sounds beautiful and grounding. But when we think about our own schedules, energy levels, families, and the very real anxieties we each have around hosting, it suddenly feels incredibly challenging. We want this… and yet we struggle to make it happen. That tension is at the heart of this episode.

It is easy to believe Samin Nosrat’s claim that a regular or ritual gathering can be profoundly life-changing. That is not a  hard sell. But the stark reality is that people seem to be socializing less. If that 4% figure is true — why do people not entertain more? What keeps us from opening our homes and inviting those we have connections with (or want to connect with) to gather? Tina and Tara turn those questions on themselves and discuss their own patterns around hosting – what we enjoy, what stresses us out and what gets in the way. They discuss the pressure to “perform” and the beautiful possibility of gathering friends and family without perfection.

Some of the topics discussed today include:

 • how frequently we really entertain friends and family

 • the parts of hosting we love — and the parts we dread

 • the sources of anxiety around opening our homes

 • the time, energy, and logistical constraints that make it hard

 • the pressure of social media and comparison

 • why ritualized gatherings used to be more common

 • the truth behind “perfect is the enemy of good”

 • and simple, imperfect ways to gather that aren’t dinner parties

Messy Middlescence is thrilled to share their conversation with Carl Richards.

Carl who? – you might ask.

Tina asked Tara that exact question when Tara – breathless with excitement – informed her over the summer that she had secured an interview with Carl. It turns out Tina did know of him through his 50 Fires podcast (which Tara often refers to here on Messy Middlescence) but was unaware of the VERY BIG DEAL that Carl Richards is in the world of finance/financial advising.

When you listen to the interview today, you will quickly understand why. This 27 minute interview is packed with an amazing amount of story-telling, practical advice, and interesting outlooks and ideas.

Carl Richards is the beloved “Sketch Guy” from The New York Times, a bestselling author, speaker, and host of Behavior Gap Radio and 50 Fires podcasts.

He is also smack in the middle of middle age which is the primary focus of this interview and differentiates our conversation from the many others he has done recently for his new book, Your Money: Reimagining Wealth in 101 Simple Sketches.

Tara and Tina discuss with Carl many of the complex yet common issues of mid-life which showcase his financial insights along with his creative (yet often simple) solutions. Carl has a unique perspective on most things which are guaranteed to make you think.

Some of the topics covered today include:

• The most common question Carl receives from successful people as they progress through middle age
• Carl’s “Project Half Life”; what it is and its value in Carl’s life
• How those approaching retirement can help themselves feel less “stuck”
• The concept of having your future (regardless of age) be bigger than your past
• The importance of having interests/hobbies/connections beyond work before you retire
• How his advice is often simple but not easy; that sometimes the most difficult part is giving yourself permission to think differently
• The shifts that mid-life is bringing to Carl
• The beauty in breaking things down and starting small regardless of the problem
• The recommended first question to ask those close to you about money
• And what it really means to live with tension — not trying to solve the mess, but learning to sit within it

With wisdom, humor, and humility, Carl reminds us that “money is just a door to meaning,” and that midlife isn’t an ending — it’s an invitation to start again, one small step at a time.

We all know that person from high school who seemed infinitely connected — the one everyone knew, everyone liked, and who somehow managed to be everywhere at once. For Tara, that person was her dear friend and former swim-team co-captain, Shannon Douglass (now George).

 Tara and Tina invited Shannon to talk about connection as part of this season’s theme, but what unfolded was a conversation about something even more universal — reconnection. Shannon opens up about the ways we can lose touch with friends through family obligations, time constraints, and life transitions, and how hard it can be to rebuild those bonds later in life.

Like so many of us in midlife, Shannon realized, “We’re all looking for our friends again.” Hearing someone so outgoing and social talk about loneliness and rediscovery is both comforting and eye-opening — a reminder that even the most connected among us can feel disconnected at times.

The conversation is both hopeful and deeply encouraging. Shannon shares the small, intentional steps she’s taking to make new connections and rekindle old ones, showing that sometimes all it takes is a simple “yes” to an invitation or an unexpected moment of courage.

Highlights include:

• The trap of thinking “I’m going to have more time” as we get older

• The importance of having local friends separate from family

• The patience and persistence it takes to build lasting friendships

• The many forms of service and how they foster connection

• Shannon’s discovery of Impact 100 and community giving

• Friendship rituals that keep relationships alive

• How easy it can be to reach out — and how hard it can be to actually do it

• The different stages of readiness for reconnecting

• The ways Shannon keeps in touch with her (many!) non-local friends

• The beauty of saying yes to the moment, the person, the invitation

• The power of surprising yourself

Through laughter, honesty, and plenty of real-life wisdom, this conversation reminds us that friendship isn’t about having it all figured out — it’s about continuing to show up and say yes.

Shannon found this song. It is so perfect for this episode that we had to add it here:

"Find Your People" by Drew Holcolmb and the Neighbors

What comes to mind when you think of friendship?

Has your definition of a good friend changed as you’ve gotten older?

Do different friendships meet different needs?

These are some of the questions sisters Tara and Tina explore in this episode of Messy Middlescence.

More and more research reminds us how vital friendships and social connections are as we age. But how we experience friendship — and what we need from it — shifts over time. Each of us brings our own mix of circumstances, energy, and values to the relationships that sustain us.

Tara and Tina open this season’s theme of Friendship and Connection by sharing their own stories and reflections:

what friendship looks like now, what makes it hard, and why it’s worth the effort.

It’s a thoughtful conversation about the comfort of being known, the vulnerability of reaching out, and the small, steady ways we can keep our friendships — and ourselves — growing.

Episode Highlights

• The difference between being friendly and being friends
• How a small gesture — a phone number, a walk, a random “yes” — can blossom into a lasting bond
• Why time and shared routines help deepen friendships
• The quiet value of casual, everyday connections
• The rarity (and joy) of finding true couple friendships
• The ongoing challenge of finding time to nurture our relationships
• The guilt or sadness that can come from feeling there’s no bandwidth for new friends
• Using walks or movement to keep friendships as healthy as our bodies
• How social media shapes connection differently across generations

After a long summer break, we’re back with Season 3 of Messy Middlescence! This first episode feels a bit like gathering at the kitchen table to catch up after being apart — we swap summer stories, reflect on the bittersweetness of how quickly it all went, and look ahead to the fresh start that fall always seems to bring.

One of the highlights: Tina shares her experience of completing her first-ever triathlon. It pushed her outside her comfort zone and reminded both of us how often, in midlife, we shy away from new challenges. Her story is a lesson in trying something different, facing nerves, and the joy of doing it alongside a friend.

That spirit of connection is what led us to choose our theme for Season 3: friendship and connection. We’ll be exploring the many ways relationships shift in midlife — how they deepen, how they sometimes fade, and why nurturing them matters so much as we move through this stage of life.

We’d love to hear from you, too: What role do friendships play in your life right now? Have you tried something new recently that surprised you? We would love to hear your answers to these questions.

In this episode you’ll hear:

• • Why summer can feel both precious and pressured — and what that means in midlife
  • How the school year can offer a fresh start for everyone, not just kids
  • Tina’s reflections on her first triathlon and the lessons it taught about trying new things, facing fears, and leaning on friends
  • Our reveal of Season 3’s theme — friendship and connection — and a look at the conversations to come

It’s June! Tara and Tina are ready for swimsuits, sunscreen, and slower days. But before they head to the beach, they want to bring their second season of Messy Middlescence to a close. This season finale has no fireworks, cliffhangers or special guests. Just two sisters sitting down to process what this season has meant to them.

In this short but heartfelt finale, they look back on the 20 (!!) episodes of Season 2 and discuss their favorite episodes, the moments that moved them, and the conversations that made them laugh, cry, and grow. They also share some behind-the-scenes information, talk listener growth, and dream aloud about what’s ahead for Season 3. This episode is as much about looking back as it is about looking ahead—with gratitude, perspective, and hope. If you’re in your own season of change or reflection, we hope it helps you feel seen, inspired, and ready for summer.

🎧 Highlights include:

• The success of using a theme throughout the season and how that allowed us to delve deep into a topic but still explore and discuss other issues and ideas.
• The continual presence of grief and loss in our lives.
• The episodes that made us laugh the hardest and cry the most.
• Why Anne Marie Lockmyer’s insights were a game-changer—and why Steve Toman’s episode was the perfect season closer
• The evolving rhythm and confidence in our podcasting process
• Why listener connection and feedback matter more to us than downloads
• What we’re hoping to explore next (hint: “elder-essence” might be on the horizon!)
• Summer intentions: from triathlon training and beach weeks to fresh tomatoes and Great Gatsby rereads
• The bittersweet beauty of this phase of life—and how Messy Middlescence helps us feel a little less alone

What happens when the career you’ve built for 30 years suddenly and unexpectedly ends—and you’re not ready to retire?

In this episode of Messy Middlescence, we talk with our longtime friend Steve Toman about the unexpected turns of midlife and what it means to find purpose again. From mortgage banking to EMT training to smoking brisket at 4 a.m., Steve shares how listening to his interests opened up a whole new season of meaning, joy and contribution.

What shines most in this conversation is Steve’s unwavering love and admiration for his wife Kelly, his pride in their three daughters, and his desire to continue contributing—not just to a workplace, but to his community and family. His story is a reminder that the small choices, chance encounters, and brave pivots we make in midlife can have powerful, unexpected, and lasting impact.

Episode Highlights:

• Steve shares his winding journey from a global childhood and decades in mortgage banking to a fulfilling and unexpected midlife reinvention.
• He opens up about being downsized in his 50s, working through identity loss, and rediscovering purpose as an EMT volunteer and barbecue pitmaster.
• His deep love and admiration for his wife Kelly—and the strength of their partnership—shine through as he reflects on navigating life’s many transitions together.
• He discusses the emotional realities of retirement planning, letting go as his daughters grow up, and how staying active and engaged helps him feel useful and connected.
• Steve emphasizes the importance of both financial preparation and staying open to surprise—how a roadside sign or casual joke can spark a new chapter.
• He reflects on the legacy of his parents’ retirement planning and shares the values he hopes to pass on to his daughters.
• Travel, service, curiosity, and community emerge as key ingredients in Steve’s “semi-retirement”—a season of contribution, discovery, and unexpected joy.

Last holiday season, Tara and Tina found themselves laughing over an ad for one of those quirky “Family Questions” games. One sample question stood out: “Who in your family would you ask for help if you needed to bury a body?” Without hesitation - and independently - we both came up with the same answer – our younger brother, Tim.

This may sound like an odd way to introduce Tim and our discussion with him --but it perfectly captures Tim’s unique personality and skill set. He’s the sibling you call in a pinch - resourceful, unflappable, and endlessly loyal.

Tim is the 5th of our 7 siblings (and coincidentally the 5th sibling to be interviewed on Messy Middlescence) and he very recently turned 51. Tim is a problem solver, a people person of the highest order, a hilarious storyteller, goal-oriented, and, yes, famously stubborn. In our family he is known for saying “I know a guy…” or “I have a buddy…” always leading into either a wild story or an impressive display of his vast network of friends and colleagues.

We are excited to talk with Tim about his middlescence journey and to give our Messy Middlescence audience the opportunity to get to know him.  Some of the topics we delve into with Tim include the following:

• Tim’s circuitous journey to a rewarding and successful career;
• The important skills he learned in his non-career jobs which ultimately set him up for success in his career;
• A lively debate on the importance of luck/chance in any career;
• His desire to volunteer and devote more time to his many interests when he retires;
• The key lessons he has learned thus far which made a huge impact on his life including the need to prioritize what is important and learning how to do the hard things we would rather avoid;
• Pride in his family and their beautiful, messy “differences”.
• How middle age has shifted his goals to be more about his children and retirement
• The difficulties of the physical changes that occur in middle age; he simply can’t athletically do what he did 10 years ago;
• His thoughts on retirement; how he will likely not stop working completely but transition to a less stressful job.

🎓 Graduation Gift Ideas for Every Graduate and Budget

In this timely episode, Tara Conti Bansal and Christina Conti Donovan dive into the whirlwind of graduation season, sharing personal stories, favorite traditions, and dozens of creative and meaningful gift ideas for high school and college grads. Whether you're shopping for your own child, a godchild, a family friend, or a neighbor, Tara and Tina offer insights that blend sentimentality with practicality — perfect for marking one of life's biggest transitions.

🎁 Topics Covered:

• Personal Graduation Memories: Watches, teddy bears, class rings, and sentimental keepsakes that stood the test of time.
• High School vs. College Gifts: Why it's easier to shop for high school grads and when to opt for cash.
• Classic & Practical Gift Ideas:
  • Jewelry, luggage, digital photo frames
  • Toolboxes, monogrammed items, travel accessories
  • Coffee makers, electric kettles, portable steamers, and power banks
• Thoughtful Personal Touches:
  • Personalized quote books or Shutterfly creations
  • Music playlists with shared memories
  • Framed photo collages from school years
• Top Book Recommendations:
  • Make Your Bed – William McRaven
  • This is Water – David Foster Wallace
  • How to Be a Grownup – R. Grimberg
  • The Psychology of Money – Morgan Housel
  • Designing Your Life – Burnett & Evans
  • …and many more
• Financially Savvy Gifts:
  • Roth IRA starter contributions
  • Gift cards or money with a meaningful token
  • Financial planning session(s) for new grads
• Gender and Age Considerations:
  • Why shopping for boys or college grads can be trickier
  • Gender-neutral and location-based gift ideas (e.g. city guidebooks)
• Creative Pairings:
  • Stationery with pens for thank-you notes
  • Money inside keepsake boxes, mugs, or cookbooks
  • Combining sentimental and practical into one thoughtful package

✨ Tara and Christina remind us that graduation gifts don’t have to be extravagant — the best gifts are thoughtful, useful, or personally significant. Whether you’re leaning practical or nostalgic, this episode will help you celebrate your graduate meaningfully and memorably.

Questions such as “What is my purpose?” or “Why am I here” often gain importance as we age. These are big intimidating questions and the answers are unique for each individual. Many of our guests on Messy Middlescence have shared their own personal struggles and triumphs with these questions. Today, we discuss a different perspective on purpose which reframes "purpose" with a "little p" versus a "big P”. We at Messy Middlescence did not originate this idea of viewing purpose with a "little p," but it truly resonated with us.

So, it may seem a bit strange, but in our episode today we recommend and discuss a podcast separate from ours which we think does a great job confronting the questions of life purpose and meaning. The podcast is titled “The Happiness Lab with Dr. Laurie Santos” and the episode we discuss is “How to Find Your Purpose” which features Dr. Jordan Drumet.

Dr. Santos and Dr. Drumet contend that purpose does not need to be some grand goal or need to save the world. Rather, they view purpose with a “little p” and believe that it is the “seemingly small and everyday actions” that can provide purpose and meaning in our lives. Their perspective on purpose with a “little p” makes the question of purpose much more accessible. They give many real-life examples of “little p” along with practical steps and methods to help individuals find their own “little p’s”. 

We hope you will listen to their podcast AND our discussion of it. In either order. Some of the ideas you will hear in our episode include:

• Our lives do not and should not have one big purpose; it is unrealistic and intimidating;
• “little p” purpose involves following and doing the things that bring you joy and fulfillment; most people have many/multiple “little p’s” in their life;
• The importance of understanding the differences between our “essential” self and our “social” self (as defined by Martha Beck) and the difficulties of truly listening to our “essential” self;
• The danger of losing the sense of joy in an activity or interest when it becomes tied to money or success;
• The pressure to do what we excel at or what comes easiest;
• The benefits of creating/creativity without worrying about the results;
• Resisting the urge to push our children towards a specific path or to force our expectations on to them;
• The process of finding “little p’s” in your life can help everyone, regardless of age, income or status (i.e. not just for the wealthy and privileged) but requires time and patience.
• The idea of a “life review” before you reach your deathbed.