Miriam Pawel, author of the definitive Cesar Chavez biography, "The Crusades of Cesar Chavez," reflects on the recent shattering of the Cesar Chavez myth — and the harder questions beneath it: what was known, what was ignored, and why movements so often need saints. In this wide-ranging conversation, Pawel explores Chavez's charisma, control, contradictions, and the challenge of holding both his historic achievements and the harm he may have caused in the same frame.