Mission Control Podcast

On this episode, roofing company growth hacker, Adam Sand, joins Mike on the show! Adam has been evolving in the industry for years using methods that Gary Vaynerchuk and industry leaders have used. The thing that makes Adam's processes so much better is that he doesn't evolve WITH the industry; he evolves where the industry is HEADING to before other brands even get there! Adam & Mike go into how he crafted HubSpot, a top CRM for roofers, owning the future of your industry, implementing good business practices, and generating operations for yourself no matter how new you are in the industry!

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[00:00:00] Mike: It's not always a money thing. It's not always gonna be throw more money

[00:00:04] Adam: at, you're trying to capture market share. You're just trying to put your logo somewhere so that someone else can't put their logo

[00:00:10] Mike: there. I think culture's really important. I think core values play a big part in that,

and we live. Welcome back to another episode of the Mission Control podcast. I'm your host, Mike Sterns. Today's episode is sponsored by the team over at Roofer. If you're looking for end-to-end sales solutions, anything from instant roof measurements to clean and pristine proposals for your perspective customer, be sure to hit up the team at roofer.

We've got a very special guest today, Mr. Adam Sand. What's up Adam?

[00:00:44] Adam: Oh, you know, just traveling around being the homeless HubSpot guy.

[00:00:49] Mike: Yeah, that's, uh, the homeless HubSpot guy. Let's talk about that. What is HubSpot? For those that don't know, uh,

[00:00:56] Adam: well, it's just a, an enterprise grade cr I'm kind of similar to like a sales force or a NetSuite. Um, that's just where we landed as far as what, what we're offering people when we're driving around trying to help them elevate and do different things with their business.

They need something custom. That's where we come in.

[00:01:13] Mike: Do you find that, as far as a contractor's concerned, there's typically like a revenue point to where it makes sense and it's not overkill to have such a comprehensive solution? Oh yeah,

[00:01:24] Adam: absolutely. I think that, uh, like we kind of say that our ideal customer avatar is a roofing company that's doing 10 million a year more that's been doing seven to 10% net profits for two years or more.

And like the marginal utility of more money in their bank account is having a diminishing rate of return on their happiness. They don't need another boat, another car, another vacation. They, they, those things won't make them as happy as if they're. Business could just run the way they knew it could or should, but they need to, they need to have somebody come in and just make their thoughts into reality.

And that's like one of our first core values is thoughts into reality. Um, and so you typically kinda have to be in that place because at that point, a six figure number, you know, is, is about 1% of revenue. 1% of revenue is a pretty small investment to make, to have your business run the way they, you always wanted it to run.

Yeah,

[00:02:11] Mike: that's a really good point. So, so wait, you talked about no profit, that's important. I shouldn't just pay attention to, you know, the grows.

[00:02:19] Adam: Um, well, I mean, it's not that you shouldn't, I mean, I, I know clients that are, you know, losing money, right? And they're doing so intentionally. Um, I just say that our ideal customer avatar is the person who.

The person who's go, who is going to hear what we're having to, what we have to say or who's looking for what we do, is a person who's just feeling really unfulfilled by their business and frustrated by things that just always seem to be, they always seem to be told, ah, Acculink doesn't do that. Oh, QuickBooks doesn't do that.

Oh, we can't do that. Oh, you have to do it that way. Oh, you have to click that. Oh, you can't do it that way. Oh, if you wanna do that, you're gonna have to get that. And they're just sick and tired of constantly getting, you know, brick walls that wherever they go looking for opportunities, and we just. We used to do a bunch of roofing CRMs on the Roofing CRMs and we just got, we got really sick and tired of kind of having our brand tarnished cuz we were like, oh, Adam, yeah, he's that, that CRM guy.

Talk to him, he knows the CRMs. And then people would come and say, Hey, can you, uh, build us a custom CRM and like, make you do the things we want to do? And we'd say, yeah. And then we'd be like, oh, sorry, that doesn't do that. Oh, sorry, that can't do that. They're like, well, I thought you were the guy. And it's like, well, yeah, but I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm building on this tool that you want for 50 bucks a user.

And so over time we just realized that like most businesses should just wake up and choose ays, you know what I mean? And then, um, unless they have like big, big, big growth ambitions and they're really technically smart. They have, they're like that ideal custom avatar that I mentioned. Um, they should just get up and go buy culex, you know, and just use it.

But, um, the rest, the ones who have, who've hit those walls, they want to do something special if you wanna know it. It also kind of see, depends on where you see the industry going, right? Some people have a different vision for what the industry looks like, and they, they're willing to, you know, even the, the private equity right now is just buying up the industry basically saying, we'll give you 3.2 years of your profit, right?

Like, and when you see like, you know, 3.2 multiple on Abida, what they're really saying is, for the profit that you could take out and spend a boat spend on to buy a boat, we're going to buy, we're gonna spend three years of that so that we can own that market share three years from now. Because we believe that the industry will be different three years from now until the smartest money in the world is same.

Hmm. So, people who can look at that, recognize that are saying, well, we're gonna have to skate where the puck is going. Right. Not trying to catch up to where it's already been. Not to use the most

[00:04:59] Mike: Canadian analogy. I was gonna say, it's a very Canadian analogy. Uh, you are from Canada. Yeah. Um, so you have roofing business partners, right.

Which was established when,

[00:05:11] Adam: uh, 2016.

[00:05:15] Mike: Okay. But you also have been involved with a roofing company, correct? Yes. Okay. So how, how much, how much did the experience in, let's say, sergeant's Roofing and, and what you experienced there, how much did that play a role as to the founding of Roofing Business Partners?

I would imagine it would be a pretty significant role, right?

[00:05:38] Adam: You know, not as much as you'd think, right? Mm-hmm. , um, so essentially, A long time ago, I owned a tan salon and I found out really early on how social media, um, could be used very powerfully. I ended up in jail because of a Facebook campaign. Um, and I also, uh, like grew my, I I grew my ability to sell things using social media.

All along the way, I, I watched this web TV show back in the day called Andrew Locke, uh, help My Business Sucks. And he talked about how web TV was the future of the internet. This is before YouTube. And Andrew Locke said, you know, you gotta get into web tv and there's this really great, like, probably one of the best examples of a web TV show besides his of course, uh, was this guy named Gary Vaynerchuck, who had had this wine library tv and you should do something like that.

So way back in the tanning salon days, I had Golden Tan tv, which is where I talked about tanning lotion much in the same way that Gary V talked about wine. Now in the world of wine versus, uh, wine versus tanning lotion, he definitely kicked my ass in the total addressable market. , uh, right, 16 to 18 year old, or 16 to 22 year old girls definitely don't have the cup purchasing power of bougie people that wanna buy expensive wine, but Sure.

Uh, but I learned, but I learned a lot. And then I used video to sell cars in the car industry. And I, I used video to sell an app. You know, I made an app and then I sold the app. And so I'd kind of done all these different things and my buddy was a shingler. . And, um, he was a roofer that, you know, like that's just what he did.

He just woke up, got meant, the crew went roofing and it kind of sucked cuz he never had any money, you know what I mean? And I, it was like he was my best friend and he saw me through a dark time. I like literally slept on his floor for a while. I was, I had a place, I was just so depressed. I didn't wanna go home and be alone.

So I hung out at his house, but he only had one couch and it was him and his wife on the couch and me sleeping literally on the floor falling asleep watching movies every day. Um, and I, and so. You know, I felt indebted to him, right? Like I really wanted, like, cuz he kinda was just like, there, like, just kind of gave me a place of like safety, I guess you could say, or face, face, uh, you know, someone who wouldn't judge me cuz I had a fall from Grace.

And you find out who your friends are when you have a fall from Grace and you learn a thing or two about loyalty. And so, uh, he was one of the few people that was loyal to me in that time. And I, uh, and so I was like, when I just kind of saw my life was like up and then down and then up again and I, and it's like I'd already made, made and lost more than he'd ever made.

And I was just like, you know, it kind of sucks. Like, I'd like for you to like be able to come do fun things, you know? I went, um, . And I was like, why don't you like, why don't you start a business like a roofing business? Your boss has sold their company for like a couple million bucks. Why don't you start a roofing company?

And he was like, I don't want anything about business and, you know, taxes and stuff like that. And I was like, well, I'll help you. And so I loaned him the money to go get a business license and loaned him the money to buy some tools. Went to Home Depot, literally started pulling stuff off the shelves and, and, and gave it to him.

And then he had a party at his house with his roofers and one of the roofers came back after they left to go to the bar and stole his tools off his deck cuz he lived in a one bedroom condo. Um, and so I was like, damn, I'm never gonna get my money back if I don't help this guy . And so I started helping, but I, I didn't, I, I knew nothing, nothing about roofing when I like invested in a roofing company and I, I started helping 'em out, helping 'em out and didn't get paid anything, was just kind of helping.

Cause I thought it was kind of cool. And in fact, because they had that fall from Grace, I didn't want anybody to know. That I owned a business cuz I, at that time I was worried that like people were gonna go on the internet and go, oh there's that, I'm gonna start another business. Right? Mm. And I was, and I was embarrassed about it, which is ironic, but, uh, and so I, I was just helping 'em out for free and then finally I was like, Hey, you know what, um, you, oh yeah, that's right.

So I went to a job of his and I saw that he was, he had, he was on the roof, but there was a science at Urban Contracting up front. And I was like, why does that science say urban contracting? You're Sergeant Roofing? And he is like, oh, cuz they're the guy that got the job. I was like, so why are you doing it?

He's like, well, they get the job and then they contracted us. That's how it works. And I was like, we don't have a business. You gotta pimp . I was like, what? Like, I was like, as a pimp, you know, he goes out, sells the, sells the job, and then you have to do all the dirty. Right? Yeah. And so I was like, you're just, like I said, that's not real business.

I said, you gotta, you gotta like advertise. And so I was like, well, why don't you use Facebook? Right? Why don't we do that? And so I went searching for a Facebook ad guy, and back then, I mean, now you can throw, can't throw a shingle off a roof without hitting, you know, three, three Facebook ad guys in the head.

But, um, back then you, you, um, there was nowhere to be found. I tried finding a guru. I tried finding a, uh, you know, a course a, an agency. I hired two agencies. They both told me that. I, I said to one, will you do Facebook ads? And they said, Uh, no, uh, that would be dumb for a roofing company. There's no buy now button.

I was like, okay, well, um, you're fired. So I went and found another agency. I said, do Facebook ads? They said, yep. I was like, great, you can do my Google stuff too. And so I hired them and they started Google stuff. I was like, okay, when do we start the Facebook ads? I'm like, ah, that's dumb. You don't have buy now button.

Why would you do that? Can't track, can't track conversions. And this is when there's still no ads in the newsfeed. It was just the ads on the right hand side. Yep. And I, and I was like, ah, you know what? So I went, I was trying to find like the Facebook, I was trying to find a Joseph Hughes or some course that I could take, and nobody had it.

And the only guy that was out there was a guy named Rick Mul already teaching the Facebook advantage, but it was just like, how to sell like dentist tooth whitening and, and, and dog toys and weight lo weight loss programs. And so I ended up talking to the guy and took his course, even though he said like, I don't even know if this will work, but take the course and, and you'll learn Facebook ads.

And I was like, okay. So I took that. I spent, uh, my own money, right? So I didn't, I was like, I still had a job at this point. So I was still a sales manager at a car dealership and I was helping sell roofs on the side just to help my buddy out, and then also running the Facebook ads on the website and doing all that stuff all in this first year.

And, uh, and then I've found a way to make it kick ass with the Facebook ads, and we just figured it out. And so I was in one of those private Facebook groups that all the courses sell, and I was like, Hey, I figured out, um, how to do, like, we ran like $7,000 worth of ads and we sold $420,000 worth of roofs and.

Everybody in the group that wanted to be the, you know, the guy in Facebook ads wanted to interview me. And so I did like 28 interviews in one year about Facebook ads, because back then it was like, guy runs a thousand dollars worth of ads and sells $7,000 worth of dog toys. Like the numbers were always small.

My headline was like, super click baby back then, right? Yeah. Cause nobody was running home services ads and the home services numbers are just bigger. Right? Right. Sure. And so I got all these interviews, so from like 2016 to 2019, if you Googled roofer and Facebook ad, it was me just cause all these, all these like digital marketer and like, oh gosh, all the, like, there was a bunch of roofing shows and a whole bunch of no name podcast shows that aren't even still around.

But I mean we just, we were just like that guy. And so from there, an X NFL guy, Named David ta. He reached out and he, he was a X NFL player who started an agency and he was part of this group called Ya Go Like, you guys are awesome. And he, like, the owner of High Level is in there. Um, all these kind of, all these kind of guys were in there and, and we, we would meet every weekend and as we started and we, we all had digital agencies or something like that.

And so Sergeants didn't have much to do with it. I mean, it definitely added a sense of trust at, I guess at the very initial beginning that like, I was somebody talking about advertising, who knew what it was like to wake up and have to deal with guys who drank a bottle of shampoo for breakfast and got up on a roof and then did some days, showed up, some days didn't.

And I could talk about like underlayment and 12, 12 and Slope. How much, you know, how long a job took and the difference between shingle brands. Like it helped a little bit for sure in that like initial trust phase. But I would say after the first year of like doing it, really the reputation kind of stood for itself.

Cuz Sergeants, roofing's just a company in Edmonton, Alberta. It's the northernmost city in the world with a million people. I mean, it's blanketed in snow right now. Yeah.

[00:14:03] Mike: I like how you put it. It's, you have a pimp, you don't have a business, um, . So man, there's a lot to unpack there. So as far as you went, you went to jail, not Facebook jail, actual jail.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:14:19] Adam: For, for a couple of hours. Yeah. Let's talk about it. Okay. So, um, yeah. I, so I had this tanning salon, right? And I wanted to figure out how to, um, wanted to figure out how to run. like a campaign because like, like how do I get a big burst of customers? Because in, in August, tanning is like kind of a hard thing for people to pay for because the sun is free for two months outside in Edmonton, Alberta, Canada.

And so I was like struggling to like, I was like, where do not gonna make rent? Like how am I gonna do this tonight? It's like really the tanning thing doesn't really pick up again until November. You know, as people start thinking about, like, I get a little burst in Halloween, right? Cause all the girls are wearing nothing.

And then right after that you're kind of gone, right? So you get a week right before Halloween and then you're dead until like Christmas time people start thinking Christmas party, new Year's warmth, right? And so I was like, how do I do this? It's August, we've had nothing in June and July and August. It's like, it was like basically barely made rent August 1st.

And so I started thinking, and by. Uh, 12th, I think it was, I came up with this idea that one thing customer, I needed an innovative campaign. Right? As a ceo. As a ceo. That, that I remember learning that I had to spend my time in four places, innovative campaigns, um, business development, leadership development, and systems and processes.

And so I was like, I need an innovative campaign. And I remember there was this, um, the movie, the Matrix, right? And it was like The Matrix has you and I and I, I saw something in an Ad World Magazine that was like, talked about the Matrix and talked about that movie Cloverfield. I remember reading that. It was just somewhere buried in the cerebellum in the back.

And then about a year before this, there was this shopping mall in our city that just put. November 8th or whatever, they just put this big eight, it was like eight foot tall box and they put these boxes all over the city in like ditches and stuff. And it was just an eight. And everybody back then, cuz Facebook had just kind of started getting traction, they were like, what's this eight all over town?

And everybody started asking all these questions about this eight all over town. And uh, and then it got, word got out that it was this, it was the opening of this new, um, what do you call it? Like a wing of the mall. Mm-hmm. . And so, I don't know, something in all the little things inside my brain, kind of thought Cloverfield Matrix eight, I need a curiosity campaign.

And so I said, okay, so what I need, I need a curiosity. Campaign's gonna do this. So then I got this and I was like, but I have no money , so what am I gonna do? Um, and so back then again, images were not pot. Like this is before there was even ads really on Facebook. This is, images weren't even there. What year is this still?

Just uh, this would be ish Iowa. Oh gosh. It's gonna be about 14 years ago. Right.

[00:17:04] Mike: Cause I was 20 got, so we're talking like original iPhone . Yeah.

[00:17:08] Adam: This was before iPhone. 3G. S like the first iPhone just came out. There was no Facebook app. If you wanted to upload a picture, you had to like manual digital camera, go home, plug it in, upload your computer, put a, it was still just like Adam Sand is mad that his sand, which was cold.

You know what I mean? Yeah. Like, yeah. Right. That was all Facebook was back then. It was very few pictures. Very little. And so, uh, I thought that, okay, this is what I'm gonna do. I'll get people to take pictures of these boxes to win. It's like a scavenger hunt. They gotta find the most boxes. And the thing that I was doing is people hated bringing tanning lotion to the tanning place.

Cause this one bottle that you leave in your car, it gets cold, it freezes, it's ruined. You leave it in your car, it gets hot, it gets wrecked. It's ruined, you know, you forget it. It's in your, it's in your other gym bag. They just hated remembering. And when you come there, you gotta pay $10 for a packet cuz the tanning guy's just gonna rip you off on the single use packet.

Right? And I thought, okay, people want unlimited lotion. And I don't know where I got, I think this probably got this from like a Prime membership. Or I got the idea somewhere. I was like, everybody pays for unlimited tanning, but nobody gives unlimited lotion. What if I gave unlimited lotion? People came in and they could pick from one of three bottles of lotion.

We would just give them single use cups, but they got it for free. And they could pick up bronzer one day, but then if they're wearing white, they could wear something that wouldn't stain in their clothes. You know, and all this kind of. I thought, okay, what is a year's worth of tanning lotion look like?

It's like a box this big. So it's like, okay, I'm gonna hot, I'm gonna go to the, to the basement of the mall where they put all the cardboard and I'm gonna take all these boxes from like, cuz they always had piles to the ceilings of boxes. So I took all these boxes. I. And I filled them full of some junk to make 'em heavy.

And then I got this brown and gold wrapping paper, a brown wrapping paper with this gold ribbon. And it was beautiful. And then I got these stickers printed that said it was, its like in 30 days, I gotta solve this problem. So I said, September 11th, a special gift to Tanners. And it was a year's worth of tanning lotion and a year's worth of tanning.

And, and the person who found the most boxes was gonna win a prize. And so I got, and then I, I knew everybody in this mall. It's West Evanton Mall. It's the biggest mall in Canada, second biggest mall in the world. It's got, you know, there I knew all, all the girls that worked at all the stores tanned at my place.

I was like, Hey, can I put this box in your window? Right? And they would let me, like, put all the boxes in their displays. And then I started announcing this, that there was this like $1,300 prize that would be given away, um, to whoever found the most boxes, posted them on Facebook and tagged me in them.

And back then there was no pictures. So all of a sudden, for like two weeks, Facebook was just blowing up with these pictures of these brown boxes that said, and all you could see in the picture was September 11th. Because there's like, right. And I was stupid, but I didn't, I was, I'm Canadian, right. It was 10 years, it was like 10 years after the whole thing.

I wasn't thinking, right. Sure. I just knew that I had 30 days to solve this problem, and so then I put these boxes all over the place and connect the dots looking backwards, like you, you'd think I did it on purpose, but like anybody who knew me back then was just like, it didn't, nobody, nobody thought of it.

Sure. Like all these pictures, the people from Canada who were taking these pictures to the scale of hundreds, none of them realized it, but they had American aunties and American cousins. Right, right. Who were like, hello, September 11th, he's gonna blow up your mall. So, oh God. They ended, so then they, so people from the states ended up calling somebody in the States.

So then the FBI called the Canadian Security Intelligence Services, who then deferred it to the world, Canadian Mounted Police, who then take, took, came to my tan salon, arrest me, and threw me, threw me in the, there was like a police station in the mall, threw me in there. And so then I had to explain to them what these boxes were.

So then they had to go and find a box. And like, I was like, there's nothing but like old tanning wall and bottles and paper and like junk and these things. So then they did it. So then I had to change my contest and I had, and I, and I had to put all the boxes in a pile out front of my store. Um, and uh, and the mall owners got involved and Oh, like, and they're like billionaire Jewish people, right?

So it's like they, they're like, you know, like they don't need the bad press of like, you know, and just, ugh. Yeah. That the story

[00:20:59] Mike: I was gonna ask, did you get a press release out of it? ? Um,

[00:21:02] Adam: you know, I didn't, I, I, well it got, it got worse because then someone, so you know how back then you could tag people and it like looked a little bit more like you posted it.

Mm-hmm. . So, and it only took a second for people to get triggered. Somebody made a meme, you know, about me before, like memes really had what they were today. They actually like custom drew it, but it was a picture. So back the two big tanning franchises in Canada where Golden Dan. Or sorry, we're Planet Beach and F Butan.

And someone drew a picture of two buildings with the Planet Beach and the F Butan logos. One had a plane stuck in the side of it and another one had a plane heading at, and both the planes had my logo on the wing of the plane, and they called me the tanning terrorist and they tagged me. And then that shit went everywhere.

And then I got even more heading, even more trouble. Um, and like the funny thing is that same year the World Wildlife Federation did the same thing. They made like this picture of like 300 planes heading at the Twin Towers, saying that like Hurricane Katrina was the a hundred times more devastating than, than September 11th or whatever.

So it like, I don't know, it was, it was just a weird, weirder, but I learned real fast how powerful social media was. So that's what led to the Golden 10 TV thing. And then it led to, and then I just used video all the time, everywhere I went.

[00:22:23] Mike: Yeah, it's smart. I mean my, my first. Exposure to you. I mean, personally was like an eee when I was working at another agency.

And, and you were working with Charlie and Steven over at Dreamworks, right? Yep. And typically when I would get brought into these meetings, you know, with their, another marketing person, I'm like, here, we fucking go. Right? Cause it's usually just a bunch of surface level nonsense. Um, and it's, uh, it's frustrating to be a part of in those instances, right?

And, uh, mm-hmm. , I was thoroughly impressed with the strategy and methodology, um, as far as your, your ad campaigns that you were helping run for them. Um, the fact that it wasn't surface level. In fact, it was very, very intricate. Um, and the extent to which you took a deep dive and I'm like, yeah, this guy's, he fucking gets it.

Uh, , thank you. Yeah, no doubt man.

[00:23:15] Adam: Um, so I didn't actually put two and two together on that. I really appreciate that. But yeah, I guess I wouldn't, I would've thought of it as just like the agency that you were with. I didn't really connect the, connect the dots there. So that's kind of cool to know That's the origin story.

Cause I didn't, I didn't put those dots together.

[00:23:29] Mike: Yeah, no doubt man. So, uh, shout out to the guys over at Dreamworks. They're great. Yes. Love them. Yep. Um, okay, so let's talk about core values. You mentioned one of your core values. Let's, let's share our core values and, and why they're important. So what are your core values that you lead with?

[00:23:46] Adam: Um, so one thing that I, I believe is the core tenant in life is to, is to question your thoughts and beliefs, right? And so it's like, is this true and does it serve me? Right? And so it's like there's a difference between what we see as our truth and what like as truth and what actually is truth, right? Mm.

So it was important to me to somehow put that in there. And so the core values spell truth, but every single one of them means something to me. Um, and uh, and so the first one is thoughts and the reality, right? And the whole idea is like the most, you know, the like, power is really that, right? God said the universe existed and it did, right?

So thoughts and the reality, and that's what our clients are really looking for. They're looking for their thoughts to become reality. And so when people on my team, you know, say, they say lead and manage around your core values, I say that, um, you know, like when our customers ask for something, we say it can't be done.

It's like, no. Like that's exactly what this business was evolved from, is customers wanting something that could, that couldn't be done. That's what we do here. So basically we don't take, that can't be done as an answer very often. Um, we exhaust all options before we get there. But our goal end, we try and do it fast, right?

Like the whole thing is speed. It's like thoughts into reality, not like thoughts into ideas that turn into plans that turn into workbooks, that turn No. It's like, you know, quick, right? And then the other one is reward on merit, right? So a lot of companies, you know, they, they reward on seniority and they reward on time, you know, time invested or who's been there.

Like, like that kind of stuff, right? I wanna reward on the activities that people do. Someone comes here with a good idea, it's a meritocracy. We, we, we judge things based on their ideas, not their tenure and, uh, unimpeachable character. Um, I've done business with people who, you know, I, both clients that have, we've made them lots of money and then they bought Corvette's before they bought health plans, you know, or for Ferrari before health plan actually.

Um, but not Kayla? No, not Kayla . Okay. He, uh, he's, he's, so, he's put, um, he's working on his. It's gonna be there soon, I think. Um, and then he, uh, so then he, so yeah, rewarding on merit, but then also, or sorry, unimpeachable character, right? So trying to do that, but then also people, right? Um, I've had people who have stolen from me who have, you know, even just, just bad character, you know what I mean?

Like, it's just, I just don't want people that are gonna have skeletons come out of the closet, you know what I mean? And then, uh, trust is earned, right? So that's the other t right, for trust is earned. And I mean, that's pretty self-explanatory. And then hard boring work is our advantage. That's the h And it really, everything that we do is just hard, boring work.

It's just building another workflow, building another automation, making it so you don't have to go into your crm, do the thing that you're supposed to do, and then go click a box that says you did the thing you're supposed to do. And should we have, we have to try and find a way, way to make it so that the box you're supposed to check that says the thing that you did is done because you did the thing.

Right. So it's like if you're supposed to do a job file playbook, you don't do the job file playbook and then go and check a box that says, I did the job file playbook so that you can progress the deal to the next stage. It's do your job file and then therefore the job file playbook check box is done.

And that, to do that on all things is really hard, boring work. Getting the reporting that people want is hard, boring work. Um, and so, you know when people say that like, oh, that's hard, or, oh, it's boring, or it's, it's meticulous, or it's arduous. I'm like, yeah, hard boring work is our advantage. It's the reason that we don't have a lot of people doing what we do is because it's hard and it's boring.

[00:27:25] Mike: Yeah. And I think there's, yeah, there's definitely, I love that. And like one of all of those things speak to me. And you talked about like meritocracy versus like, like you said, like there's a lot of like cronyism and nepotism, especially in like corporate America, right? It's kind of like who, you know, somebody is unjustifiably in a position of power, now you're taking orders from this person who doesn't know what the fuck's going on.

And now there, there's like this dissonance internally and it usually perpetuates a really shitty culture, which I think culture's really important. I think core values play a big part in that, right? Because it's like, I don't know, I left my previous job where I made objectively a really good living cuz I didn't like the culture, right?

Mm-hmm. , um, it, it wasn't great. And I have like, you know, what I pulled out of that for me was like, money attracts talent. Culture retains it, right? Mm-hmm. . So like what can you do to create an environment where, You people can be productive, they can thrive, and like they know that you give a fuck about them, right?

like, I think that's really important. Everybody wants to feel valued. Um, whether you're talking about business personally, what have you. Um, so those are, those are awesome core values. Dude. The, the hard boring work too, right? It's like, so one of our core values is, is execution, right? Because like anybody, I can pitch anybody anything and sell them and it sounds fucking fantastic.

But where the reason why people hate marketing companies is cuz nobody fucking does what they say that they're going to do, right? Mm-hmm. , it's like, yeah, this, like, you pitched me this like, you, you promised me the world and you showed me fucking Pawtucket, Rhode Island, and I hate you now , right? And I, and it's scorched earth.

And, and justifiably so, because that's the majority of the people in our industry. And I mean, I don't think it's, I don't think it's exclusive to roofing or to marketing companies. Like there's usually like the vast percentage of businesses that just aren't fucking great in, in their industry. And then there's the industry leaders and you know, we try to push every day to be one of those industry leaders.

So like our core values are, you know, accountability. Like it is really simple not to be accountable, and it's my pet peeve and personal and business relationships when people aren't accountable, it's really important. The same way that we need to be accountable for expectations. Our clients need to be accountable.

My employees need to be accountable, their colleagues need to be accountable in order for those cylinders to all fire harmoniously and to achieve what we wanna achieve. Solutions not excuses, right? Like, get the shit done. Like we can justify a million ways why we can't accomplish something, or we could just fucking find out the way to do it right and get it done for somebody.

Um mm-hmm . And I think that's really important. Compassion. Um, I think compassion, empathy, and compassion are very important. And the way I look at it is compassion is like the emotional response to empathy. So you have to be able to empathize with somebody, but like, that's not enough, right? Like, you have to then take that tact of wanting to help, be willing to help, and then actually help, um, in order to, to make that difference.

And then do the right thing, uh, you know, for yourself, for colleagues, uh, for clients especially, right. Just be a good person. Mm-hmm. , right? Yeah. You know, and it's, we try to, we try to do exercises and do things to embody those every step of the way. Cuz I think that, you know, I find that, you know, some people, they don't know their core values.

Like they set 'em and forget 'em. Right? Or they don't, they don't have activities, they don't have anything to remind people of what they're there for. Do you, do you ever. .

[00:30:55] Adam: Yeah. I, I, I mean, we've, I've, I've experienced that just traveling around the country, you know, working with these roofers, you, you see that some people have it as like a thing that they put on their wall, right?

And then some people have it as a thing that they live. And I find that, that there's, I mean, I don't, you tell me if you feel this is true because you've worked, um, in corporate America and maybe seen some of this, but like, I feel like if the core values are designed to make the employees do what you think they're not gonna do, then it will just be something that you harp on.

But if your core values are actually what make up your DNA as a leader, then it's going to be something that you embody and therefore you're gonna attract and then kind of, I guess, assimilate people into that culture of being more like you.

[00:31:43] Mike: Yeah, I, I couldn't agree more based on my experience, right?

Because it's like, It's, it's like the execution thing, right? Like it's simple enough to pitch these core values. Like this is what we stand for as a company. And it sounds fucking fantastic when they come into the Monday morning meeting and it's like, you know what I mean? I gotta be honest with you, I can't, I've worked for a few different companies.

I couldn't even tell you what their core values were. Um, but like, even like concepts that would be, I guess derived from a mission statement or core values, it's like, have a rah rah meeting, but it's like lead by example and do your actions speak to what we're trying to accomplish? Or is it just something to get people excited for the day to hit your next goal?

Um, and I think that purpose in being able to prove through action, it's really, really important to get people like legitimately bought in. So like, if you think about salespeople, I was a salesperson. Like, what do you care about as far as a salesperson is concerned, you care about, especially in corporate America, you care about their numbers, right?

How much revenue are they bringing to the company? How profitable are they to the company? And a lot of that other shit kind of goes by the wayside. But I'm a firm believer that, like if I have employees, regardless of the capacity in which they're fulfilling work for our clients, if they're happier and we have things that we live by and execute, and they can see that from the top down, I feel like they're gonna be happier and they're gonna be more productive.

So selfishly, like, I want that for them, right? Because it benefits everybody involved. Right. And it makes my life easier, less churn as far as employees are concerned. Right. Retention is, is important I think, when you're running a business. Mm-hmm. , because it, it sucks hiring people. I don't know. I don't love it.

Um, do you, do you like going out and hiring people? Well, I mean,

[00:33:29] Adam: I, I like acquiring good people, but I mean, I think like you, it sucks replacing. Right? Yeah. It costs, it costs a dollar and a half for every dollar you paid someone to replace them. Um, and so when it comes to digital marketing, I got out of it for this reason, I didn't, I found it was really hard to find and train people who would uphold those expectations.

And I was in that like, lull in the middle where there was more bad than good. I think they were getting to a place where you've had some, I guess, some invisible hand of capitalism effects and there's less just bad operators getting any traction. You know, you going into the Facebook groups and saying, Hey, I'm a marketer.

How do you need 10 more leads? Like, that whole thing is like a meme now, right? And so I think the dust has settled a little bit and, and people like yourself and, and, and others that you know, are, you know, they're kind of cemented in place as leaders in the industry. But I was in that spot where all the commotion was in the middle, and I was also doing this CRM stuff, and I was like, I hate being part of this marketing stuff.

I don't wanna do this anymore. It's not even my passion. It was just something that. I was, I was good at and people wanted, and it was good business. But I really love this like CRM stuff and I am curious, um, what you feel has changed in, in the marketing industry now, cuz I mean, it's like I'm seeing more collaboration between like you and Tim and it seems like the marketing, the marketing industry has gotten less backs savvy than it, than it used to be.

[00:34:58] Mike: Yeah. And I think there's, there's something to be said about like, withstanding the test of time in any type of business or, you know, my brand is my brand, Tim Brand is his brand. Both of us have been a part of like those roofing community groups, especially online for quite some time, right? So it's, it's one of those social proof things where it's like, if this person is consistently getting shouted out by myriad of people as to what they're doing, how they're helping, there's gotta be some baseline, um, established as far as credibility and efficacy of what they're doing.

Right. Um, and that's been huge for us. I think that it's been pretty big for Tim as well. I don't wanna speak for him, but like Tim and I, like, we have a great relationship. Tim's now a friend of mine, right? He's, he's my biggest competitor and I consider him a friend. Uh, we talk all the time because, you know, our situation is different than two local roofers because we have, like, our addressable market is the entire United States, right?

There's a hundred and I've seen anywhere between 90 and 110,000 roofing companies. And we both focus on a very small percentage of that, people that are very growth oriented. Um, and, and I think that we share some of the same values to where like, I know that we aren't, and I'm very, very, very confident that Tim wouldn't tells somebody that comes to him and is like, Hey, I want a hundred leads a month.

And we're not gonna tell 'em, Hey, spend two grand, we'll get you the a hundred leads. It's gonna be great. Here's the contract, sign this contract. And in a year's time, it's gonna be great. You can get that fucking Ferrari that you always wanted. Like I hedge against that. Every stop of the way, I'll tell somebody like, Hey, look on Google Ads, if you know in your market, I would expect you to pay around 150 bucks a lead, or around 200 bucks a lead, there's gonna be a management fee associated that if, if we're setting up a long-term strategy as far as seo, this is what is going to cost you.

Our websites are gonna cost you this. So we lose a lot of opportunities because of that. And like, I wouldn't have it any other way because now I don't have the backlash of people that are saying like, this dude's a fucking charlatan. Right? Like , like internally, I'm not that person and I don't, you know, and I probably, quite honestly, I probably lose some really good opportunities to work with some really great companies just because I am so terrified of those, of somebody like not being completely satisfied with our service and the impact that it can have because, Character takes years and years and years to build and can fucking be destroyed in the snap of a finger, right?

Yep. I think it would be hard to do that and dismantle what we've established, um, whether it's Tim, whether it's myself or, or anyone else that that has, I guess, clout in, in the marketing industry. Um, but it, it, it, it's a tough pill to swallow when that happens. Um, so yeah, I think it's kind of like, uh, the, the, the time factor, right, of, of what we've done and how consistently we've done it for a lot of people.

And I think that, uh, and, and I guess like just the really shitty approach of some, some sales people has also really helped that, right? So for instance, when I was a salesperson, go. .

[00:38:12] Adam: I was just gonna say, do you think that there's, do you think that there's opportunity there for new, for a new marketing company to come enter the space?

Like, I see them come in, I see some good, you know, some actually some half decent dudes, like some nice guys and, and, and maybe some people who know a thing or two. And I see them trying really hard. Like, you know, what would you do with this? What is it? How, what would you do with more time? Like, they're asking all the questions on their Facebook posting the thing with the words.

It's like, what would you do with an extra 10 hours a week? And then, you know, if you could have cu like they're trying to, like, trying to do the thing to like get just two people to like, talk to them, you know? Yeah. And I wonder like, is there even space for them anymore? Like, should they just go get a job with you at might, you know, at a sandage leap, just be a salesperson for you and help you blow up?

Like what would they, what would they do? Like, you know, I wouldn't know. Like, how would you. And to get so crowded, and it's like nobody will give you the time of day. Right? If you, if you don't have a rep, it's like one of those things, like you can't get a job without experience. You can't get experience without getting the job.

It's like, yeah,

[00:39:12] Mike: yeah, you gotta be 22 and have 10 years of experience to get this job. Well, how the fuck does that? Yeah. Is it,

[00:39:18] Adam: is it like, do you have to go work for Michael and then steal your client base? You know what I mean? Like, is that what you do? You go work for an agency and then you find a relationship for, and start your own like, and, and, and like, you know, hope that you left them better than when you started so you don't feel so bad about it.

Like, what? I'm curious if there's a, how you'd start a digital agency today.

[00:39:36] Mike: I think, I, I think that it, it would take, it takes time and effort, right? Like, believe me, like when I started, you know, whatever, five years ago or six years ago when I got into some of those roofing groups, like I under, I went in with the understanding that like, I'm like, there's opportunity, right?

There's a lot of people that need help. And I know for a fact just through my experience on like a micro level in the community that I was in, Not on Facebook. Like a lot of people prey on contractors cuz they don't know. Same way. Like I got taken advantage of when I was 19 and the mechanic's like, it's gonna cost you three grand to fix your car.

I've got a one year old daughter at the time started early and it's like, fuck, I just know that I'm getting fucked here. I can't point a finger as to why or how, but I just know it's not causing $3,000. And maybe, maybe I was, or maybe I wasn't. But as long as I, you know, we don't die in a car crash cuz I didn't address the issue.

I guess I have to be okay with it. And I feel like that's where a lot of contractors ended up falling. So like my job in my mind was to help cure that. But you, you

[00:40:36] Adam: needed a mechanic with compassion.

[00:40:39] Mike: Aha. So with that being said, it's like I knew, like I looked at all the posts that even back then that were going into the groups just like spamming for opportunities.

And I, and I think people, contractors especially, they've gotten a lot more keen on picking up the motives, right? So you have somebody that posts really good question to get engagement, an engagement post, right? What would you do with 10 more hours? Like what's your biggest struggle as a roofing contractor?

And those things are great, but there's an immediately a DM that's very salesy. It's not, it's not well thought out. I mean, I get dms all the time asking me if I need fucking leads, right? I'm not a roofer. And if you, if you search my name, if you click on my profile, if you did any type of research into your prospect, you'd be like, this guy doesn't need leads.

But that's never done. So I'll give you for, for instance, you know, before everything that we did was like reputation oriented as far as growth. Like I did cold calling. I started out my, like my career when I was 18, I started doing collections, which is a fucking, it's an awful job in my opinion, but I was good at it and it taught me so much.

It taught me so much. You're sitting there pounding the phone, getting told to go fuck yourself for eight hours for that one opportunity to talk to somebody who you can show empathy to be compassionate with and help them through a shitty situation. And you can truly make an impact and they're forever grateful for you.

And I'm not talking about like the type of collections where you threaten the sheriffs to come to their house and shit like that. It's like have a rational conversation. I got in in oh eight right when the mortgage meltdown happened in America. Right. So like there were a lot of good people in really shitty spots.

So like, it taught me things and like one of the things that I realized when I started doing sales was, you know, cause there's a lot of parallels. It's like you have to identify who, who that avatar or your target market is going to be, what they look like, what's important to them. You gotta understand what that pain point is and like, , you have a very small window to, to grab their attention as to how you're going to help them, right?

So the way that I'd always approached prospecting before, it was like Facebook community groups was like, okay, I know that when I made 10 calls, eight people fucking hang up on me when I tell them who I am. Right? It's just gonna happen. And there's gonna be two people that might listen and one of those two are gonna hang up after like five or seven seconds, and then the other one might gimme the time of day and maybe I get an appointment.

So it's a numbers game. I'm like, how can I optimize that process? So it's like you think of like the norm of reciprocity, right? Mm-hmm. , you do something for someone, they're more inclined to do something for you. And I always talk about like the girl at the bar situation. Like if you wanna have a conversation with the young lady sitting at the end of the bar, what do you.

You buy your drink because now she feels some sense of obligation perhaps to allow you to talk to her for a moment, right? Get her attention and open the door for conversation. I'm like, so how can I deploy that in like a, in a sales position to where I can take that two outta 10 and maybe turn into four outta 10 and maybe two or three of those conversations are productive.

So all I would do is like, I would research my prospects. So I'd go on manta.com. So if I call Sergeants Roofing, I'm gonna know who I need to talk to. I'm not gonna call you and say, hi, I'm need to talk to whoever handles your website, cuz that's a surefire way to get fucking hung up on. So I would research who it is that I'm calling.

I would pull up their company profile on Facebook right before I call, and I would like their profile cuz now they're getting triggered and alert to the Mike Sterns liked Sergeant's Roofing. So now I call, and there's already a familiarity there, right? Where there's, there's some sort of understanding of who I am.

So it's a cold call. It's just not as cold. Right. And that made a huge difference, dude. It made a massive

[00:44:24] Adam: difference. I have no, I have no doubt. Just because you get a like, and then all of a sudden it's Michael Sterns phones you a minute later and as after they saw Michael Sterns, you say, hi, it's Michael Sterns.

It liked your Facebook page. I, I can't imagine the pitch, but I, uh, I, I did telemarketing too when I was younger, so I, I kind of did some stuff on the phone and I could see how that would be a powerful thing to

[00:44:43] Mike: do. So it's just, it's, I think kind of, that was very long winded way to get back to answering your question.

I think there is opportunity, but it's just a matter of being willing. Like that shit took a lot of time. And I would get beat up by my sales leadership team all the time, cuz they're like, Mike, you're supposed to be making 50 calls a day and you made 13. And it's like, yeah, but I set twice as many appointments as anyone else on the floor.

Right. Like, that's really important. And I'm like, you know, as far as like sales rankings, I'm doing like, Top notch. Yeah. But you need to make, you know, 50 calls a day, you need to make 40 calls a day you need, and I'm

[00:45:20] Adam: like, you say this, wanna see your number multiplied by three?

[00:45:23] Mike: And I'm like, it doesn't scale that way.

Right. Because the investment of time for me to get those four appointments conversations, and, and there's a lot that I would do for my clients outside of like, what they would sign up for me personally to help bring value, right. To where I'm just the salesperson. But it's the equivalent of like, you know, I'm, I'm doing the marketing, I'm showing up, I'm selling the roof, I'm on the ground cleaning up as the guys are tearing up, I'm climbing up and helping them tear off.

I'm dealing with the initial claims meeting, the adjuster meeting, I'm following up with the desk adjuster, I'm getting the final check from the homeowner, from the insurance guy, like doing quality control walkthrough. And that's why it's like, in due time I was like, you know, it just makes more sense to, to, to do it myself, I guess, right?

Mm-hmm. . Um, so I think that if people put in the time and, and into like the prospecting side of it, And it's not always just a bait question. If you're having authentic conversations, try to understand people's pain point and you invest time into asking like good follow up questions to really have a sound understanding of what the struggles are and you craft solutions that are based off of that.

I think people would be more successful in the marketing space as it relates to like those Facebook groups. But I think that a lot of the times people could sniff out the fact that it's just a bullshit engagement post to get somebody to respond, to trigger a dm, to be like, can you handle 20 more leads though?

Yeah. Like, you know, and it's uh, it's just bad salesmanship.

[00:46:46] Adam: So what do you think is, uh, what do you think is the best, um, what do you think is the best, you know, 12 month strategy right now for roofing company? Cause I get asked this question all the time. I mean, everywhere I go they're like, you know, they wanna know, okay, well now we spend all this money on the crm, now we want to pour the gas on.

[00:47:00] Mike: You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. So I think that that, that there's a ton of variation as far as having a good answer to that based on the context of that company. Right? So a 12 month plan for somebody who is pre-revenue or just starting their business looks undeniably

[00:47:21] Adam: different. Let's preface it like a 10 million plus company.

That's like, if I was to say, Hey, my last five clients go watch this podcast I was on, because you're all the same. You know, this is like a good 12 month strategy for a $10 million and up company. It's doing that profit that has an established brand, but wants to like somehow find a way to get that extra umph out what they're doing.

So they're probably already doing some Google ads. They're probably already, you know, they're thinking about or doing some kind of social, but it's probably just picture ads. Um, you know, and they, and they've got some traditional media, you know, how do you come in as a person who knows this industry instead of say like a, a kind of a white.

Gray agency that does all kinds of industries, more of an agnostic, generalized marketing agency. What, how is it that you come in and say, you look at an established marketing campaign and go, I think I can make this better. Like, what is the thought process that you go through?

[00:48:13] Mike: Yeah, and that's a really good question and thank you for answer, uh, asking it.

So I try to take things like in a consultative fashion, right? So it's like we look at everything you're doing and maybe like if you're doing 10 million, maybe you're doing billboards, tv, radio, things that I wouldn't recommend typically a first year company to do, which is why I was so fucking impressed with Caleb and what he's accomplished through radio.

Um, cuz that's typically what I tell people is like a year, two, three strategy based on revenue. Um, but you know, the first thing that I'll answer to that question is it's not always a money thing. It's not always gonna be throw more money at it. If you're really trying to scale, you know, to, to 15 million from 10 million inside of 12 or 18 months, it's probably gonna involve money, right?

Um, But like what I tell a lot of companies is like, I find in my experience that a lot of roofing companies have entitled teens for sales reps, right? And it's the opportunities that are generated by the company are viewed as an entitlement, not a perk of working for a good company. So we'll talk about in like the, a retail situation, right?

So tirelessly I hear like, I gotta make sure that I get another 10 leads a week for each one of my guys so they can set, you know, appointments and make sure, and it's like I come from a background where it's hunting, right? Like you. If you didn't hunt, if you didn't kill anything, you didn't eat right. And I think there's a happy balance there.

So I think like sales activities would be the first thing that I would look at is like, what are you doing and what type of ecosystem have you created as far as getting your reps to generate opportunities? So like I was on, when I showed up at the one industry, one model, or we did the event and New Serna Beach with uh, tj, it's like the social snowball effect.

Like it's real. Like the only reason we're sitting here today and we have this conversation is cuz what I've established as far as a brand within community groups, roofing companies can do the same thing, right? Mm-hmm. , what does that look like? Well, one, you should have like a quality control walkthrough for your customers and make sure that they're happy.

You should use that opportunity in conjunction with automation as well to make sure that you get the review while you're there and that there's follow up thereafter. And then outside of that, like invite people, if you've got your sales people, let's say there's 10 local community groups on Facebook where there's homeowners and there's 5,000 here, 3000 here, 20,000 here.

Get your sales people in there and invite, have them, invite their customers into that ecosystem and talk about how fucking fantastic you are. Right? If you're doing 10 million, Adam, how many customers do you think that they're servicing on an annual basis?

[00:50:50] Adam: Oh, uh, to do 10. To do that? 10 million what? A second ago?

Like 600? Yeah. Depending on, depending on where they're at in the city, in the country. Yeah.

[00:51:01] Mike: So I mean, if we get 10% of those people to be brand ambassadors within these local community groups where there's more. Um, than just randomly somebody posting, right? If you're, if you're in a neighborhood, a geographically designated zone within Facebook, it's like if you can get 10% of those people and have 60 to 80 people consistently tagging your company and talking about how great you are.

Anytime somebody talks about roofing, siding, gutters, that's huge. I see that as a huge misstep for a lot of companies. Um, scaling your budget, right? Like, take a look at what's working. So you're building an environment within a crm, which I'm sure the attribution and tracking capacity is second to none, right?

So take a look at what you're doing, what your closing percentages are, what your revenue, what gross and net is based off of your lead sources, and understand, make a database decision as far as like what's been productive, what should we scale, right? If you're in a market and Facebook is absolutely crushing it, Throw some more gas on Facebook.

If it's Google ads, that's absolutely killing it for you. Go ahead, expand your seo. If you're getting a ton of organic leads, um, you know, that's how I always advise people to make that decision because I can sit here on a soapbox and tell you what's best for your company. But like that company should have a way better understanding.

than me as far as what's working, what's working well. So those are the types of conversations that I have with people when trying to establish like, what is the best strategy for you. Does that, is that a good answer? Is that me just kind of is

[00:52:33] Adam: That's No, that's a fan. That's a fan. That's a fantastic answer.

Which is like, do what's working and more of it is like, um, and it's like as your agency is maybe getting complacent, right? Um, and thinking, okay, well we talked them, if we took them from six to 10, we're good. Let's put 'em on the, the rotisserie cooker and just set it and forget it. Um, I feel like that's where I like when I, cuz when we do build this stuff, it's HubSpot, right?

So it started as a marketing automation platform. So the attribution is second enough. In fact, that's how we kind of sell it, is we kind of sell, it's like this is like gonna be working as like, Part-time employees that get paid three grand a month in your company. So you're already making, you're making money just by having it because it's gonna do the job with three part-time people.

And one of those people is gonna be the guy, the person who reports to you and how all the different marketing efforts are working. And if you just know that information, not only are you gonna have that person working for you for free because it's just a report and a system built in, but you're also gonna be able to make more data driven decisions as to what's working in your marketing.

Because that's the problem is like you use the roofing CRMs, right? I mean Job Nimi, I'll bet you, I bet you $10,000 right now. Um, job Nimi, they use HubSpot Sell Job Nimmi and they are US are Canadian. Where? Hmm? Thousand US. OK. . Yeah. Um, so Job NIMS is going to try and come out with something similar to Marketing Hub for Job, for Job nis.

They're gonna try and, cause they, cuz when you're using HubSpot and you look at Job nis and you see like even in their marketing ads, When they show a screenshot, HubSpot's up in the corner, like they got three tabs for HubSpot open up in the corner of their screenshots of Job nis. And I'm like, and I'm, I always like, screenshot it and like zoom it in and like Guy , but that's so, so funny.

But like I guarantee you I'll spend, I'll bet you 10,000 bucks, they're gonna come out with a marketing hub copy for Job Nibu. Um, trying to, trying to do something similar. And that's because the problem that it's existing is the industry is changing, is that you are going to need to find economies of scale, right?

So if you can take and find like every, there's 30 roofing companies in Denver that all got 4.5 stars on Google. There's not really much that separates them. They're selling the same shingles with the same prices installed in the same way, in the same amount of time by the same type of people for more or less the same price.

What's different about nothing. And you can, we can do a lot of stuff and value extraction to try and find out what makes 'em special or try and come up with something that somebody to make them stand out. But at the end of the day, there just isn't that much that you can do different. And so, Um, if you can take a look at them and they're all spending $5,000 a month to get to, to basically to be competitive in the marketplace.

So, you know, 30 of them, 15 are paying Mike and 30 15 of them are paying Tim. And they're all just footing that money into the market and they're all getting so, so results from it. Well, um, and I probably wouldn't happen cause you guys wouldn't do that kind of thing, but, um, but anyway, see if, if you can be a company that can find a way to spend 30,000 to replace the marketing efforts of those 30 companies spending 5,000 each, that's $1.44 million a year in frost removed outta the market that you can use to make more profit sell jobs for $1.44 million cheaper a year.

Um, all because you find ways to create these economies scale. And the only way you do that is without just saying the data driven decisions and. I feel like that that's a very good way to go about your approach, because you're right, most of these companies that we're taught that, that we're working with, right, when we kind of sell HubSpot, it's like, and this is gonna help you do this.

Um, that's one of the questions they start asking the last week. They're like, well, what do we do? Like this company is planning some big initiatives when I leave. Um, and, you know, they're trying to hire an in-house marketing person and they're trying to like, they're like, okay, now we got this tool. This's increased our capacity and our ability to swing a hammer at our market.

Um, now how can we go and, and just like flood the place of business? And, you know, my answer is, well get on Facebook and record 2000 videos like I did, but they're not gonna do that. Right? And so they, they need to find other ways to do it. And I think that, you know, the agencies that people have, they, they kind of, a lot of times I see them and I say, well, what are they saying you should do?

And they're. Spend more . It's like, and, but on what? And like, what's actually working? They'll just give you report, like these are your keywords and you've got like 6% click through on this one, 2% click through on this one point, 6% click through on this one. But they never say, so we should cancel that one and we should pour more money on these two and see which one of those two still is the winner.

And if this one's still laggard, well then let's just pour all the money from all three into that top one. Right? They don't ever do that. We just, every month they send the same report with the same, with the same keywords, get the same click through, rate the same. And it's like, it's just the same ads running the same report.

You'll see it for six, I'll see it like six months. They, sometimes they include me or I see it come in through their, like, through, I, I got so many people's stuff sent to me at this point. We just like, we see it, it's like the same thing every month over and over and over and over again. Um, and they never, and they never like optimized.

So I think that your, your answer was perfect.

[00:57:22] Mike: Thanks man. I really appreciate that. It's, what do you do? So like, Causal relationships are a beautiful thing when you're talking about marketing companies and, and, and people investing into marketing and advertising, right? Cause it's like, I invested this, which presented this ad to this person.

They clicked, they bought we top line revenues. This company made this fantastic. Like, it's very clear and concise, but how do you handle situations where maybe it's, it's foggy, it's not as, maybe it's just correlation because there's different variables and there's, the customer journey looks a little bit different and there's not that straight line attribution

[00:58:04] Adam: you.

I mean, you have to then just kind of take an aggregate of everything that you're doing. You know, the, the probably the best book on marketing I ever read, and probably the thing that got me out of being an agency was this book called Sheep Don't Eat Complicated Grass. It was recommended to me by a guy named, um, Josh Kelly has like a hundred and it's probably like 200 something million dollars now.

The, uh, uh, air conditioning company that, uh, we worked with him in the past and it was back in the Facebook and days, but he said, he showed me this book, um, and now, and then he went and actually started our agency too, called Clover Marketing. Really smart dude has like five businesses. But, uh, this Sheep Do Complicated grasp.

It's literally like this thick, it's tiny little book, looks like a comic book, but it was, everything in it was just gold, right? And it really just says, People in their sheet brain make decisions to buy things. Right? I instantly just saw your drinking laqua and thought, Hmm, lemon cello, that's a good flavor.

And I go, and I don't even know if that's the flavor, but that's my favorite flavor. But I just

[00:59:01] Mike: saw lemon cell as good as fuck. This is just lemon. It sucks. Yeah. ,

[00:59:05] Adam: right? It's like it's, but you, so why does Tide put their logo on a race car? Right? Because sheep don't eat complicated grass. Their brain, when you're in your sheep brain, you pick up on things and that's why Caleb's radio worked.

It's a consistency. Um, and so you kind of take the aggregate of what you're doing, and it's like you, you get to a point in a size, in a company where you're doing so many different marketing initiatives that don't necessarily have direct attribution. You have to kind of do it the same way Coca-Cola does it, which is where we spent 10 million and we got a hundred billion in.

If you spend 15 billion, did we get 150 billion in sales? No. Then we then somewhere in between those two numbers is a sweet spot where we get a diminishing rate of return and we have to make some, we have to try and see what makes an adjustment. So you're using kinda like a gap method of measuring it where it's like, based on this, between this gap and these two numbers, our effectiveness went down.

Why? And, and you have to start analyzing everything you're doing and just trying, trying to get answers. But you're trying to capture market share. You're just trying to put your logo somewhere so that someone else can't put their logo there. You're just capturing attention in market share. So I believe that once you get to these certain size, these like eight figure companies, it just becomes a matter of being everywhere, being omnipresent, and, and you have to just start looking at your marketing spend and your total addressable market and how much of it you're capturing.

Um, because you can't try and get attribution from every single thing, but that doesn't mean spend stupidly the places where you can get attribution, you can get returns. Optimize and then take what's working in those places and go put it in the places where you can't measure. So when you get a kick ass like image ad on Facebook that works, you know, like let's say like the hot shingles in your area, ad that, you know, goes around every once in a while, right?

Yeah. Like if you find that ad kills, right? On Facebook, you're advertising to your same market of people. Well, the bill, the, the, the, the banner ad in your, like, whatever you call it, the image ad just in the newsfeed, that's no different than the billboard on the side of the road. Yep. Right? And I know, like the joke that Gary V said that every market is rehearsed and said, oh yeah, they're not looking at the, they're not looking at the billboard.

They're not even looking at the fucking road. Right? They all say that that joke's been chopped up and reused by every marketing agency in the world. And it's true to a degree, but guess what? 120,000 cars getting on that off ramp every single day someone sees it and they're gonna drive on that on ramp every single day on their way to work for now until years from now.

And it's like, hit that up, you know? And so if it works in the Facebook newsfeed, it'll probably work on the billboard or the bus bench, you know? And so take what you can measure and apply it to the traditional advertising world. So if it works as a podcast, put it on. Or like, if it works as an ad in a podcast or some kind of audio format, put it on the radio.

Right? If it works on YouTube, put it on tv. Right. That's really, it's just like, take,

[01:01:58] Mike: sorry, go ahead. No, that's really smart. And you know, and. The reason why I usually tell people it's gonna be year two, year three, that you're gonna do more traditional media is because you have to have liquidity. You have to be able to pay for your means of acquisition for new customers.

And typically, like that's what I found is like that timing. But you're 100% right. Like I, you know, I've cracked the joke where it's like, when's the last time you got in the fucking car to go find a roofing company to do your roof? That, and I say that in just what happens, like you said, 120,000 people perpetually your commuters, maybe 30,000 of 'em are hitting past that same route every single day.

And maybe it's not, oh yeah, I'm gonna get this number. But what's gonna happen is if your omnipresent, they do a search a year from now and they see three roofers there, right? And one of 'em is the one that's been just bludgeoned into their brain, subliminally through, whether it's the billboard, whether it's Facebook ad campaigns, whether it's organic posting, whether it's door hangers and neighborhood blitz is whatever.

They're gonna have that level of familiarity. And they're gonna be like, ah, they're more inclined to click you and choose you out of those top three in the ads or in the maps section organically, wherever they choose to engage. Yeah, dude. Yeah. It's

[01:03:10] Adam: just, it's that inception from the end of that movie focus.

Right? It's like you just wanna put five five everywhere, right? , I dunno if you've seen that movie. Yeah. But it says, uh, there's a, did you see that movie Focus? I've not seen it. You seen it? Okay. So there's this, basically he runs up this gambling debt, this betting, this betting game between this dude and a, a, a, I can't remember, it was a football game.

Yeah. And they're betting on like every play and everything. And he's losing and winning and losing and losing and losing and losing and losing. He's losing all this money. And then he's got, but they keep doubling the bat. Double or nothing. Double or nothing. Double or nothing until the number gets really big.

And then they find, and it's this whole hustle. And then at the end they say, I want you to go look down. It says, look down the team, look down the field. Pick it. Like pick any player from any team. And I bet I can guess the number on the back of their jersey. Right? And he looks down. Has the number in his head.

And then, um, he, and then, then Will Smith, the main character who made the bet says 55. Right? And, uh, And, and the guy's like, holy shit, you did it. And now, now he gets all his money back in this huge bet. And so then he walks out and like, everybody's losing their mind how this happened. Turns out they had been running this hustle on this guy for a long time, changing the numbers on his door to five five playing a song five five, changing the wallpaper on his hallway to five five having five five on his pin.

And like the song that was playing in the background when he was making the be was woo woo, woo woo. Old song and it's like basically woo, woo woo, I guess his number for five. And so all these things were like inception, you know that to make him think of when he looked down on the, on the field, he looked at any of these numbers.

They, they knew they had to make him pick a number and they made him pick 55. Well, it's the same thing in marketing cuz sheep don't eat complicated grass. And when we're in our sheet brain, right, and we're just like trying to like, just not fall, go past the yellow or white line and we're just trying to like get to work and we're listening to the music on the radio or the podcast and then you just like see stuff and like your brain just like picks up stuff that feels familiar, right?

If you pulled a cup off your table, that was some thing I've never seen before. I would've maybe been, it would've been completely benign. But the fact that I saw it, that it was Laqua, I'm like, oh, right, not Laqua Lemon Chill. That's a good flavor. .

[01:05:20] Mike: Yeah. Yeah. It's funny how that works. I think it's, you mentioned diminishing returns too, and I, I don't think that that's always going to be a bad thing.

And I'll give you an example of why I feel this way. So if you are trying to, like, let's say you're running an ad campaign. Let's say it's Google Ads, cuz this is what we deal with a lot. You've got your optimal search terms in conjunction with your negative keywords to get in front of the most ideal individual that's likely to click your ad, engage and buy from you, right?

Mm-hmm. , the more we scale that budget, the less of those ideal people you are. And it's like you move down a tier as far as like maybe the quality or the intent of the individual. So your cost per lead may rise, your cost per acquisition may rise. That's not a terrible thing. If you are still, let's say you go from 150 bucks, a lead to 180 bucks a lead, you should be able to be pretty profitable acquiring leads at $180 through Google Ads.

Um, so I think that's an important distinction to make. But to your point about diminishing returns, like be cognizant of them for 100%, right? Because there is a point where those things are not nearly as productive and then they become a liability on mm-hmm. on the, uh, the sheet, the balance sheet, or what have you.

Do you agree with that?

[01:06:33] Adam: I agree. I agree completely. I mean, if you're, whether your lead goes from 150 to 180, it's it's cost per customer acquisition, and then it's also so many other things that you have an influence over in the business, right? I mean, the smartest people that I'm working with are, you know, they're , they're losing $500,000 this year, not making $500,000 this year, but they're capturing market share, you know what I mean?

And they have the capital to do it, but they're looking at it and just saying like, we want to create a customer acquisition machine, um, because we want to, we want to make it so that as the dust settles on this changing marketplace, You know, we have this customer acquisition machine that when one, that one lead turns into a sale 50% of the time or 40% of the time, but that one lead turns into three more sales because they build this customer acquisition, um, methodology throughout the entire sales process.

And they systemize it with, with, with, with, with a crm when they, they don't have to use me to do it, but the smartest people are doing that. They're like, how do I turn this one roof into three? So they're creating this like massive build day presence. Big sign, or not a big sign, but like a big guy. One was like tent with the roof on top with their logo and table with the tablecloth and a cooler that they're taking care of the roofers, throwing 'em, you know, water bottles and freezes and they're, they're out there and they're making themselves present in the neighborhood and they're magnet raking the, the, the, the driveways and magnet raking the street and waving as people go by and, and, and putting a nice, you know, clean cut person with the polo and all that kinda stuff on site.

And they're putting, putting this, this build day presence that creates this neighborhood domination effect so that all of a sudden they take your, your increasing cost of leads or your diminishing rate of return and, and, and, and they take that and they turn, they maximize that spend by creating this customer acquisition machine on the back end.

So it's like, I just need to buy opportunities. They, they're thinking. Kind of like how SaaS thinks in like mrr, like we need to pay cost of a customer acquisition. It's three months of membership revenue, or six months of membership revenue. But once we have them, their explanation lifetime value is not canceled.

Yeah. Lifetime value. Well, their lifetime value of a client is really what is the lifetime value of a neighborhood, right? They're just trying to infect a neighborhood and then they, and then they just, they want that disease of positive experiences to spread through the neighborhood and then just do neighborhood domination.

Rather than knocking 10,000 doors to get on to get on, you know, um, let's say a hundred roofs, right? And then get 50 in, you know, 50 inspections that get approved. They're like, let's instead apply that same amount of energy to just get to get 50 leads that turn into 30 rows. But then let's turn that. A thousand roofs that we do in the neighborhood, and there's a lower upfront cost, and they really only have to spend money once they're making money.

So then they just need to work with someone who could help them work to that end.

[01:09:20] Mike: Right? Yeah, it's, it really is brilliant. And it's like there's layers and levels to it, right? Because you can say, you can go to any roofer who's been on a job site, maybe they put a lawn sign up, maybe they don't, but just their truck being there.

Maybe a neighbor comes and talks to 'em and they've gotten leads that way, but that's not the end, right? So as if you put the lawn sign up, more people are gonna be inclined to call you based off your presence there. If you have a wrapped truck, if you have a tent, if you then have a person at that tent that's giving out coffee or giving out coolers, if you have, um, you know, any type of banner or catchall that's branded, hanging from the house, all these additional layers that you're layering on are only going to.

Maximize the likelihood that instead of one neighbor approaching you, four of them do, or seven of them do, or 10 of them do. Mm-hmm. , if you parlay that with other marketing efforts like sending out, you know, drip campaigns of mailers, maybe, or, I'm, I'm not here to promote anyone in particular, but there's a lot of things that you can do if you choose the right vendors to work with and just take kind of a holistic approach.

Take the blinders off of just acquisition. Now. There's so many things that you can do to create that machine that you're talking about, and with automation, it's come such a long way where it can be so powerful. .

[01:10:39] Adam: Yeah. And that's, so that's, that's really where I, where I look at it as, as being the, you know, what people are doing in the full scope of like trying to acquire customers, not just like marketing or lead gen.

You know how like, or advertising the agenda, but marketing, you know, like how do you just really try and capture market share and make it so people want to want to do business with you. And then, you know, if you can do some cool things that, you know, make your brand stand out and they like, they just want the invisible hand of capitalism to make you win, then great.

You know, but, um, yeah, people are gonna, you know, you're, people are going to see that the industry is gonna be looked drastically different three years from now.

[01:11:19] Mike: Yeah. I couldn't agree more. Before we wrap up here, what's one fun fact that nobody knows about Adam Sand?

[01:11:27] Adam: Hmm. Fun fact that nobody knows is, well,

[01:11:29] Mike: I don't wanna say nobody that most

[01:11:31] Adam: people wouldn't know, is most people wouldn't know.

Um, um, I don't know. So I would say something like, I used to be a. . Hmm. I was in just a little theater company and I used to want to be an actor when I was young, or maybe that I want to go to space. And I'm super jealous that you get a rocket in your logo. That's

[01:11:52] Mike: another one.

That's funny. I wouldn't peg you for the theater type.

[01:11:59] Adam: No, I was actually really introverted. But you know, when you could act, you could just kind of like pretend that you weren't right. Yeah. So I'm actually really introverted. So on the football team and in the theater group and in high school and uh, in, you know, in both cases it was like you kind of got to wear a mask, so to speak, right?

Mm-hmm. . Cause in the football helmet, you're just like, you're just part of a team. You're just another guy with a mask on his face, you know? And then it was, I found a good place to expend energy. And then same thing with theater. Um, it was just like, it was just something that, that I got influenced in. And it was, I mean, the best part was, it was really, really cheap.

You know, my parents, um, didn't have to pay much, so me to be in theater and football wasn't that bad either. It wasn't like hockey.

[01:12:40] Mike: Yeah, I, I got one year to play hockey because my grandfather's like, my boy's gonna play hockey and I don't care if it's a thousand dollars. I remember the conversation. Right.

And, you know, that was it. We played one, I played one year. Um, and it, I mean, it was just wildly expensive and we weren't by any measures, any type of well off. So, uh, yeah, it's football and basketball, but theater. Dude, that's awesome, man. If there's one thing that you could tell a roofing company owner as far as based off your experience and, and common missteps that you've seen, what's one thing that people need to be situationally aware about when they're running a, a roofing business?

[01:13:15] Adam: Well, I, I, I got kind of known for this whole follow the process thing and I used to be really obsessed with like process. I used to say, have a process. Map out your process, document your process. The word process was really the thing that I focused on and now I'm more about the follow up, right? It doesn't matter the tool, right?

I used to get really excited by tools and tech and stuff like that, but the tool doesn't matter as much as the process. And then really the process doesn't matter as much as getting adoption of that process. And so trying to get, so really focusing on being able to get adoption of every initiative that you're putting in place.

You'd rather have a simple three sheets of paper CRM that you can get a hundred percent adoption of than having a $10,000 a month CRM that nobody uses.

[01:13:57] Mike: That's an amazing point, and I think, you know, A lot of y'all are gonna have to take a look in the mirror because that shit starts with you, right? The accountability and whether it's you holding your team accountable or it's people that you've delegated to trust to help with the adoption internally of these systems and processes or processes, sorry.

Um, you know that there has to be accountability there, right? Especially when you're entering something new into your business, right? And if you don't, it's 100% your fault and you're likely there's gonna be a detriment to your business as a result of that. Very well said. Well, look it, dude, I could sit here for another four hours and talk to you, but I'm sure you've got shit to do.

Um, I really appreciate you stop and by I would love nothing more than to link up in the future and, uh, continue the conversation, man.

[01:14:46] Adam: For sure, man. Thank you so much. It was great to be here. It

[01:14:48] Mike: was a good conversation. Yeah, absolutely. If people wanted to discuss, you know, the build out of, you know, your crm, how would they go about reaching you?

Well,

[01:14:57] Adam: I wouldn't be a very good marketer if people can't find Adam Sand on the internet, but that's really it. Roofing business partner.com, find me on Facebook, Adam Sand. I try and be very present and very, very helpful. Try and help people solve the level one and two problems for free. So they'll come pay me for level three, four, and five

[01:15:11] Mike: problems.

All right, well, there you have it folks. Again, rather appreciate you and I'm sure everyone's pulled a ton of value from this. Um, be sure to, you know, like, comment, review the podcast and, uh, we'll be back next week. Peace.

On this episode, Mike has on Euroshield's President, Lesley Gustafson.

Most houses have asphalt shingles that typically last 15-20 years and require quite a bit of attention throughout that time. Euroshield, rubber-based roofing, can last 30-50 years, and requires little maintenance. Euroshield steps in as one of the most innovative brands on the market.

Mike & Lesley go over how Euroshield started, sets its standards and how it is recognized as the innovative future of the roofing industry.

On this episode, Mike has on Caleb Oberg of Oberg Roofing. Caleb's story is unique in the sense that it took him a few years to find his marketing secret to getting his roofing to be as successful as it is today.

In this episode, Caleb shares the ups & downs of starting his business and his top trick for his marketing!

Let's Connect! ==== ==== ==== Website: https://bit.ly/3NQXXKK Facebook: https://bit.ly/3xH8VaT Linkedin: https://bit.ly/3RWTSyr ==== ==== ====

Contact us! [email protected]

ep 7

[00:00:00] Caleb: You gotta pick one and you got like, you gotta do the one that works with your market and your business. Especially

[00:00:06] Mike: with branding efforts, consistency and having the right expectation for yourself when you're investing in is really important.

[00:00:15] Caleb: Or if you're gonna do marketing, like do one thing really well and like own that thing before you go on and try and like do everything.

[00:00:31] Mike: Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the Mission Control podcast. I'm your host, Mike Stears. This is episode seven already. Thank you for tuning in today. We have a very, very special guest, Caleb Oberg of Oberg Roofing, out of the great state of Minnesota.

[00:00:45] Caleb: Welcome, Caleb. What's up? Lucky number seven, let's go.

Listen,

[00:00:50] Mike: man, happy to have you today. For sure. You're gonna wanna stick around from start to finish. You've got a great story. It's compelling, it's enticing, it's everything you could think of, dream of, and so much more again. Thank you Caleb. So just to kind of give you guys some context, I met Caleb at an event that was put on what about three weeks ago.

It was roofing ahead of the curve, thrown by, brought to you by TJ McCormick, the world's greatest roofer and euro shield among many others. And uh, I'm walking into the event and we're in the lobby ish area where vendors are getting set up and I see this guy and he looks like he knows his shit. Alright, so obviously I'm intrigued.

So me being me, we strike up a conversation. I had him like my YouTube channel. That was great. Appreciate you Caleb. Um, but he had a story, It was a story as far as like how he's gone about marketing his company and it truly is. Unique in the sense that I have dealt with hundreds of contractors, and I don't think anyone has gone about acquiring the type of year over year growth that Caleb has by the means he has.

So we're gonna talk about that a little bit. But Caleb, why don't we introduce you in the sense of like, who is Caleb overt? How did you get started in roofing? Give the fans what they want. Let's hear

[00:02:17] Caleb: it. Right on, man. Well, I'm, I mean, I'm 41 years old and I've spent a majority of my life, uh, in the roofing industry.

I've been doing it for 22 years. And, um, I mean, I got, I'm a father of four. I got two grand babies, um, very busy. Loved doing a lot of, lot of everything. Sports, shooting, hunting, you name it. Nice. Just got done playing a, a state softball tournament over the weekend. Came in forth to play. Unfortunately, we, we didn't take down the ship, but you know, Um, so yeah, over roofing, we started in 2017.

Um, just been rocking and rolling ever since. Okay. So you

[00:02:58] Mike: started right around five years ago. You've been in the industry for 22 years, carry the one, so that leaves 15 years before you get between you getting started and over roofing coming to fruition. So what was that journey like?

[00:03:14] Caleb: Oh man, it was a long journey.

Um, started, you know, year one, my, my uncle had a roofing business out in, uh, the southwest corner of Colorado. It's, um, it's not the nice part of Colorado. It's kind of like the desert. Okay. Um, and uh, he asked me to come out there. I was, uh, 20 years old and I was kind of in between jobs. Didn't really ever give roofing a thought.

Um, because I don't know, like my dad's history, whatever, he kind of been, uh, working in like warehouses and stuff like that. He was a supervisor for many years. And, um, I had kind of dabbled in that myself. Um, and yeah, I was kind of looking for something else. A couple of my buddies were doing, uh, framing and some other labor work, and I thought maybe, you know, this could be something for me.

So, gave it a shot. Went out to Colorado, spent, uh, three months in the spring out there. Um, basically it was, uh, you mean I, I'll tell you, the, the first roof I ever did is still, to this day, the worst roof I've ever done, . So that's, that's something, man, cuz uh, literally every job after that, uh, my entire roofing career as a roofing installer has been easier than the first one I did.

So, and, and I mean, and I, for roofers out there, I mean, you'll get this, uh, probably anybody, we were up on this, uh, shack up in the, up in the woods or up in the hills a little bit. Um, and it was this old, you know, handbuilt place. And, uh, the, the framing on the roof, the, the decking was like this really thick, like three quarter to one inch board.

It was all, you know, hand cut or whatever. And there was three layers of cedar shakes installed in this roof that all had to be torn

[00:04:51] Mike: off. A lot of fun,

[00:04:52] Caleb: tearing it off. Right. The third layer was nailed on, was 16 Penny Nails. Um, telling you, I was like, I think I got, you know, carpal tunnel on one roofing job.

I don't know what possessed me to keep going, , you know, But I was like, whatever. I'm like, I'm in Colorado, right? I'm, I'm not gonna like, you know, bail out and, uh, and uh, head home. Now I'm gonna see what's, what else is out there for me. So, um, yeah, I mean, it got started out there. Um, you know, that lasted for a few months.

My uncle was planning on moving back to Minnesota anyways, uh, to where he was born and raised. So he came back to Minnesota. He had some connections here in the roofing, um, industry, uh, other companies that he would kind of subcontract from. He was also getting a few of his own jobs from some people that he knew.

So I was, I was kind of doing that. I had enough, um, Skills. And then he gave me all of his kind of equipment, any anyways to like continue to do roofing here. So, um, basically found a couple guys that wanted to, to work. So we did that for a little while. Um, ended up going down to the cities, doing some work down there in the Minneapolis area.

I'm from St. Cloud, Minnesota. It's about an hour north of, of the Minneapolis metro area, just for context. Um, so yeah, I mean like that ultimately didn't go down like the, the greatest path. It didn't continue, um, too much there. Um, oh, oh, you know, uh, eventually hooked up with the buddy that was roofing for another company in the St.

Cloud area. So I moved back to St. Cloud. Um, we had another friend that joined us, so there was like three of us out of the five guys on the crew. And we were doing a lot of new construction for this company that we were working for. We. Collectively became roommates and we started talking a bunch about, you know, how good we were at roofing.

I was like, man, this is easy. Like we should turn this into a business, right? And so, um, basically we had, we had that idea, uh, we didn't have a plan or anything. Mm-hmm. , the owner of the business, found out, um, I was kind of talking to his sister at, you know, on the weekend or whatever. I didn't know they had a talking, you know, relationship much.

They were kind of two different people. Sure. Hung out in two complet, different crowds or whatever. Anyway, she told him, and uh, he fired all three of us. He called us into his office, said, If you're gonna start your own business, you're gonna do it right now. Fired us. Wow. So, of course we started our own business.

Um, at this point, I'm 21 years old and I've got two business partners and, um, you know, this is 2001. And, uh, in my first year, and it wasn't even a full year, I made $35,000. My first. , Um, it was more money than I had made previously doing anything before. So yeah, I was like, man, that was a, that was a success.

So, um, that kind of continued, uh, for a little bit and then that partnership broke up and then, um, I started a new partnership with, uh, just the one other guy. His name was actually Caleb as well, so there was two Calebs riff and we were What are the odds? Legit. Yeah, literally. So, um, he was a good dude though.

Um, he was sober by this time, so he was like a really good, um, you know, positive, uh, you know, side of him, right? Sure. When he's 21, you just want to be like, working a lot, drinking a lot, partying a lot. Yeah. But, um, you know, we, we, we'd hang out and party, but, you know, he, he'd keep stuff legit. Nice. So, did that for a while.

Eventually that that company, uh, you know, and the ideas or whatever that everybody else had, was going in a different direction. . Um, I decided that, uh, I didn't want to start a construction company building houses in, and this was in like 2007, um, maybe 2000, Yeah, 2007. And, uh, like I, I could kind of see the market wasn't really gonna continue to go on to the way it was going.

So I decided to hook up with the company, the, the owner that fired me originally and see if, if I could potentially go work for him again. And, uh, with welcome arms, he, he welcomed me in and, uh, made me crew lead right away. And, um, uh, you know, that was, that was cool because he already had an established crew.

Um, they were kind of like bucking me or whatever, and I basically told 'em, I said, Look, if anyone of you guys can put on more square per hour than I can, I'll gladly give you the, the job. You can keep it.

[00:09:22] Mike: You know,

[00:09:23] Caleb: like, Well, who are you? Yeah. Yeah. They're like, Who are you to even say like that? And I'm like, Well, I'm your boss.

Technically, the owner told you and your boss. You know, wager was on the board. Nobody could even touch me. So, you know, I established, you know, my hierarchy from there. Sure. It's pretty cool. I mean, that was like the old days, right? Like, these guys get together and, you know, we, we really were good roofers we're like, we could shingle really fast.

We had, you know, we killed it every day. Um, so that, that went on for a good, like, uh, till the next year. And then, um, the next year I fell two stories off of a roof and, uh, severely injured, my shoulder broke three bones in my lower back. Jesus. And, uh, yeah, the, the employment status was very sketch back then.

I wasn't technically employee. I was basically being paid under the table in cash. And so there was no, you know, work comp, there was no anything. Um, so the, the owner. Uh, in, in some fashion decided, Hey, I'm just gonna give him a company vehicle and I'm gonna create a position in my company for him to be the production manager.

Um, I guess I looked at it as just an opportunity. Um, you know, I, I didn't wanna look at it in a bad way. I needed to make money. I needed to support my children that I had, I had, um, twin daughters that I, I needed to support. So, uh, I looked at it as an opportunity to grow and learn more about this industry that I, I still actually, you know, was really into, I just needed to know more and do more.

And, um, I, I thought it was a really, I mean, just, it's a good opportunity, right? Like, yeah, my mind was always kind of like looking for the next thing. The next thing you know was always an overachiever. I wanted to start a business. I wanted to be crew lead. I always wanted to be like at the top of, you know, the level of everything that was in front of me.

I mean, yeah, I felt like I kind of got kicked backwards being a production manager rather than like the crew lead. . Um, but it, it's what I could do at the time. So fully embraced that. Uh, the owner, you know, I looked to him for some advice on what to do and how to do it. He basically said, Look, just figure it out.

Um, if anything, you're gonna do it better than I do it currently. Cuz he was doing everything else right. And so he's like, This is your sole job. He's like, You'll probably figure out how to do it better than I did. So I was like, Whoa, okay.

[00:11:53] Mike: Nice vote of confidence, right?

[00:11:55] Caleb: Yeah. Yeah. . Yeah, it was either that, I mean either that or he literally just didn't have a clue, like how to train somebody on what he was doing.

Sure. He didn't have the time or whatever. So, um, was doing that for a few months and then all of a sudden we got the biggest hail storm ever that hit the, our market hit right in our back door. And so we were, um, the, the company was working out of the basement of his house. Right in the town that got completely demolished by hail.

Wow. So now, you know, I'm hiring more, uh, roofers. I'm trying to find subcontractors, um, trying to schedule jobs and work with suppliers and, um, seeing all these other companies come in from out town, which was just absolutely insane to me. There was companies coming in from outta state all over the country.

It was just crazy. Yeah. So then, uh, the leads and the, the need for like selling or whatever became so much and too overwhelming and the owner didn't know how to sell or recruit or, or hire a salesperson. So, um, he said, Okay, now you're gonna do sales too. And I'm like,

with what time? Yeah. You know, I'm already doing all the production and I'm, I'm, and I'm hiring crews to try and keep up with the, the sales that you're already getting. Like every one of the neighbors up and down the street. , you know, obviously was going with that company. And then, you know, there there was, it was, it was all over.

And so he is like, well just go knocking on doors and like, you know, put some yard signs down just to let you know, other contractors know that we're gonna be doing these jobs. And I'm like, I don't know how to sell. He's like, Well, J uh, yeah. So, I mean, this was like, you know, the entire thing was just like, just figure it out, dude.

So,

[00:13:47] Mike: So you get frosted into the PM role, Baptism by fire. And since that worked out so well, we're gonna run that back on the sales side. ? Yeah.

[00:13:58] Caleb: Got it. All right. Good. Am I Okay, So, I mean, I didn't even know that insurance was gonna be any different from the, you know, retail and I didn't even really know what sales was like anyway.

So all I had really to support what I would say to the customers was I knew what hail damage looked like because I went on a few roofs. Just to try and establish that as a base. And I knew all of the things that went into actually installing a roof and doing it the right way, because I'd been doing that already for like, um, you know, seven years.

Right. So, Sure. Uh, I just kind of talked about those things and I was just trying to be myself and I mean, it was, it was very receptive to everybody, right? So, um, there was a lot of other nuances that happened with, you know, storm stuff and all that kind of, you know, threw me for a lot of curve balls, you know?

[00:14:49] Mike: Yeah. I think that, uh, that, that situation kind of get thrown in with, I guess, limited practical experience. It allows more authenticity to kind of bleed through, right? Where you're just coming from a place of trying to help you understand what the damage looks like. Like you may not be an expert in the claims process, let's say, from start to finish, but if somebody feels like they're there, you're there to help 'em and they can, um, they can forge some sort of relationship with you.

I think that, you know, sometimes that can be really, really helpful in the absence, especially a practical know. some would even argue at some point that you can load up on all the product knowledge and, and the, the process of it and really inundate lose people because of that. Right? Yeah. That's the thing.

[00:15:33] Caleb: Yeah. Yeah. No, it, it definitely holds true. Like, uh, you know, um, what is it? Like listen more than you speak type of thing, right? Mm-hmm. and I would just go off, you know, and I, cuz I had a million stories about everything that I ran into as a roofer. Yeah. You know, so they were just like, Man, I don't even have a chimney on my roof.

And I'm like, Oh, well . But if you did

[00:15:54] Mike: Yeah. And if you ever do in the future, you're welcome. Yeah. That's awesome. So dude, let's talk, let's talk for a moment. Let's talk about the fact that, okay, so you fell off a two story building mm-hmm. shoulder injury, broken back. Like I feel like we kind of just glossed over that so we can get back to the rest in a moment, but I definitely wanna hone in on that for a second.

So, Like, what was that like? What were, what were the circumstances surrounding that? Um, yeah, tell us

[00:16:23] Caleb: all about it. So, um, yeah, so we were working on this like, uh, this large, uh, retirement, uh, building. It was kind of like an apartment, um, for, for like, uh, retired people. And, um, we were behind the gun and, uh, there was a guy that I was, uh, teamed up with to, um, you know, tear off and dry in and shingle his section.

And, um, you know, that guy, for whatever reason was afraid it happened to be a seven 12 pitch roof. Um, you know, we didn't use any safety measures back then. I was, I've always been pretty fearless and, you know, didn't really care. Nobody told me I had to do it. The owner didn't tell me I had to do it, so I wasn't gonna do it.

So the other guy, uh, unfortunately didn't have the same, you know, no fear attitude. I'm down there on the bottom row, um, putting on the ice and water shield, we'd already torn off, cleaned up, all that stuff. I'm rolling it out. Um, I was like, I had taken two of those 16 ounce Noss energy drinks. I'm sure. I think they still make those.

You ever seen those?

[00:17:31] Mike: Yeah, I get a little tender. Yeah. . Yeah,

[00:17:35] Caleb: they pack a punch. So yeah, like I, I, you know, it was just like, that's just the way I was, man, like energy drinks just to get me going, you know, keep that drive high and, um, you know, I was so, I was down there like, you know, expecting him to come and help me and he was up there like afraid and, uh, didn't want to come down there.

And so I was even more pissed and like, you know, going faster than I needed to. So I'm rolling out the ice and water shield, pulling the plastic and balling it up as I go. And I'm going really fast. And, uh, a little bit of that, uh, plastic just kind of. Got outta control and I stepped on it and instantly just slipped.

And because I was right at the edge of the roof, I hit the deck and fell off. And it just, it happened so fast, you know? So, I mean, there I am on the ground, you know, looking up at the dude that was up there watching me work that I'm pissed off at, you know, And I'm like, luckily I landed on grass, like lawn or whatever.

There was like a divot this deep from my elbow. And uh, it just so happened I was wearing, I always wore my hammer on the back and I had the, the hammer loop or whatever. So I think that's the reason why I broke the, the bones in my lower back. And, um, my shoulder hurt worse than anything I thought. I thought my shoulder was dislocated.

So I was telling the dude, I'm like, Can you just like check up my shoulder blade, see if it's sticking out, Like just maybe pull my arm or something. And he is like, Dude, he's like, no. It's like, I'm not, I'm not touching you. Your shoulder blade's not sticking out. You need to go to the hospital. Right. So, I mean, right then and there, everything that's going through my head is like, Man, I might be done roofing.

Like, I don't even know what I'm gonna do anymore. I've spent the last seven years, it's the longest I've done anything in my life. Right. You know, working in this industry six or seven years. Right. It was right around there. Um, yeah, I mean, I was worried about, you know, providing for my family and, and all that kind of stuff.

I knew that there wasn't any work comp. I knew it was shady. We were getting paid under the table. There was a lot of, there was a lot of questions. I mean, there's a, there's a whole lot of things that go through somebody's head when you know that there's no real security. You're working an hourly job, working for some guy who doesn't have his shit together and he's not paying you very much money anyways.

So, yeah,

[00:19:54] Mike: that had to be

[00:19:55] Caleb: incredibly unnerving. So it took me, it took me like a month just to be able to raise my arm like this. Right. So I didn't even know. I didn't even know if I'd ever even be able to roof again. I, they, I could have potentially have gone back and had surgery, but the fact that I didn't have health insurance and there was no work comp, I never did.

So, I mean, yeah, to this day I still feel it. Well, so what was the

[00:20:20] Mike: diagnosis on the shoulder? Was it broken?

[00:20:23] Caleb: My shoulder was, um, it was just like torn muscles and, and uh, potentially some ligaments that, but they didn't do like a real, they did like a scan or whatever, but quick in and out cause they didn't have insurance.

Well, I spent the night in the hospital. I mean all in all, I think all the medical expenses was right around $3,500 back then. So it wasn't crazy. I just knew that I couldn't afford to go back to the hospital Right. Or, or the clinic to get some additional work done. So I just basically dealt with it, you know, I wore a sling around for, for about a, a month or two.

And That's tough. Yeah. So

[00:21:00] Mike: after the rehab, You're back into it, able to get somewhat close to full range of motion.

[00:21:08] Caleb: Yeah, no, I'm good now. I mean, uh, like I said, I still play sports. I'm still very active. Yeah. Go hunting a lot. I mean, I just deal with the pain, you know. Sure. Go to the chiropractor quite regularly.

I get massages all the time, so. Gotcha.

[00:21:23] Mike: So, yeah. Sorry I digress there, but I felt like that definitely warranted having, uh, a quick conversation and, and elaborating a bit. So you're still running as the PM of the company, and this is year what, at this moment that you're, you're the kind of the project manager?

[00:21:42] Caleb: First year I only, yeah. I only did it for like one year. Okay. Basically at that company, I'd never done anything like that before.

[00:21:50] Mike: Yeah. And then you're asked to kind of move into sales. You've got your authentic self out selling people during this wicked storm with tons of competitors fleeing. To the scene from outta town out outside of your

[00:22:03] Caleb: state.

Right. Yeah. I think I should say too that, you know, in the, the business that I had before with my partners, just, just to be clear, we only did subcontracting and a majority of it was new construction. Okay. So there was major new construction, boom. Um, there, there was almost no sales that we did on our own.

Uh, we had taken on a few jobs that were just kind of given to us, but there was no sales involved. And because I had two other partners, I wasn't even the person that like did that interaction or did that selling. So I still had no, no knowledge of any of that. It was just me. It was always just show up, um, you know, recruiting, training, shingling, tear off, all that kind of stuff.

Yeah, that makes sense. Awesome. I was a, I, I was like, there, there was three partners and um, I think it was like a 40, 30, 30 split, so. Okay. Gotcha. I was, I was on a 30 end of it. Yeah. , I

[00:23:01] Mike: was on the third. Got it. So in, in this new position that, you know, PM involved in the sales, now you're wearing both hats.

How long did that

[00:23:10] Caleb: last? Um, it lasted until the, the following year. Um, there, there was some, uh, changes that the, the owner wanted to make through some roofing business in a box thing that he did. And, um, he was looking at what their recommendation was to pay me. And, uh, so then my pay would've been dramatically less by like, I think it was around $10,000 in that year than the previous year.

Geez. And, uh, but just wasn't gonna sit well with me. Um, I had actually, uh, sold a job on my own for like an HOA for $585,000. And, um, Even with the, the $8,000 bonus that I was getting for that job in that following year, because that's when we produced it. Yeah. I was still making $10,000 less than I did the previous year.

And so the just didn't sit well with me. And, um, uh, I was also having, uh, relationship issues and, uh, man, I mean, things went sideways fast. So, um, there was, uh, some big issues between me and the owner. He was also actively trying to sell his business and he was taking me along with all these meetings and stuff like that.

And, uh, you know, everybody in the community thought I was co-owner of the business and I, and I wasn't. And so, um, I felt very disrespected in many ways that I was never even an option to bring me to the table as ownership as much as I had done to build this company. And, uh, it left a really bad taste in my mouth.

And so, um, Between my own personal actions that were taken, um, in the kind of dark hole I was going down and, uh, and my disagreeances with the owner, um, I quit and he fired me about at the same time, literally, like, I couldn't, I couldn't say I quit fast enough. He said I was fired. And I was like, Oh, if you want to pay me unemployment, we can leave the firing thing, you know, stick or whatever.

[00:25:23] Mike: Interesting. So, yeah. So, so officially, did you quit or did he, did he pull back on the firing thing so he didn't have to pay you unemployment just for inquiring Mines,

[00:25:34] Caleb: Um, officially we left on the fact that he fired me and when it came time to, uh, get unemployment, I was denied. And then I appealed and I still got, I still, it was denied.

So, geez, I've never received a penny of unemployment in my life. , which is fine. I, I, I work for everything that I, that I, you know, that I get. So,

[00:25:57] Mike: Yeah, absolutely. So, you know. And at that time, did you have a, a contingency plan in place? You have, was it still two kids at the time? Yep. So you got two kids? Yep.

No

[00:26:11] Caleb: longer you No contingency plan. Yeah, I, you know, um, uh, I, I had to take some time off. That was my only contingency, is trying to assess, uh, you know, what I was gonna do next, where I was gonna go see if I was gonna stay in the industry or not. And, um, I actually went a different direction together, kind of, uh, was still in construction, but a friend of mine had gone on to, um, work in the tower industry.

So he was working for a company that was. Towers. Um, some of them were the guide wire towers that went straight up and other ones were self supporters for the state of Minnesota. We also did a bunch of other like antenna and like, uh, cellular site installs and pretty much did everything. So did that for a while.

Um, it was going really, really good. I became crew lead within about eight months. Um, I got to have my own crew to build a, my, like my own site for, uh, 3,330 foot self-supporting tower for the state of Minnesota. Um, uh, it was a really cool industry to be in. I was in the best shape of my life. Um, at this point I was, uh, 29.

This was in 2009, so, um, didn't fit it for a year and a half and ended up getting fired again. So , um, yeah. It was a, it was a toxic industry as far as the people that worked in it. And you traveled a lot. And, um, uh, the, the guys, uh, the other guys in the company that saw me kind of like get to that point so fast, didn't agree with it.

And there was a lot of back talking behind my back about, you know, whether or not I should be getting paid, what I'm getting paid, and whether or not I should be getting my own, um, sites for the, you know, for building those towers. They were all prevailing wage, you know, and I'd been on several crews building several of those towers because I was, uh, a favorite at the time amongst all the crew leads, so, Sure.

Um, but whatever, they disagreed with it. And, you know, uh, something happened on a site, um, that my, uh, crew up on the tower didn't secure some stuff properly. Some of the equipment fell, damaged the fence. Um, they also, they also said that I was at a bar when I wasn't. Um, cuz I, we used company vehicles, so ultimately I got.

I said, Well, whatever your loss. Um, then I had to reassess again. Uh, took some time off. Um, and then, uh, I started a different business, um, with a partner. Um, funny story as it may be with the same guy that was on the roof that was watching me fall off the roof. I ended up starting a business with him, plot twist several years.

So, yeah. Yeah. But he was, you know, he was a good roofer actually. You know, he ended up being a really good roofer. He had some of his own demons, but, um, uh, you know, we, we figured, I was like, whatever, man. I got somebody, I got one guy that wants to roof with me. I think I can start a business with this. Um, but I was like, this time, um, you know, I'm gonna become a licensed general contractor and I'm gonna do marketing and sales, and I'm gonna do all of our own work.

And, um, Uh, I'm gonna try to work out a way to do less subcontracting and I'm gonna do branding and all this stuff. And that was the, that was the plan at the time. Um, struggled with that for about five years. Ended up, um, uh, separating from that partnership within about a year in, I think we got through one season and then that guy's demons caught up with him again.

And, um, we had to separate, um, go our separate paths. And, um, eventually there was too many issues with that business name I was operating under with him trying to still operate under it. And, you know, he, there was a customer of his that alleged, we stole a cell phone from him and I was like, Man, I don't even know what you're talking about.

So eventually I had to change that business name. And then, uh, right about that time period, um, my, my current business partner had approached me and I knew him from playing softball. Uh, it's something I've been doing since, uh, I was like 17 years old. . And, um, he was a salesman for another company and he was having some conflicts with working with them, and the work wasn't steady and he was looking for somebody else that he could go do sales for.

So, um, ultimately he was like, he's like, Well, look, you need a new business name. And I was like, Yep. He's like, Well, if you get a new business name and uh, um, you know, we start to figure this out. He's like, I'd love to come sell for you. And, uh, that's when Over Gring started in 2017. We were talking about it in 2016, January 1st, 2017 over Gring and Remodeling was a brand new business.

And we had a, I had a whole new vision for everything that was gonna happen from that day forward. Man, that's

[00:31:20] Mike: awesome. That's, uh, you took the scenic route, like, you know, that and that , it builds character folks, right? Like, I think it's important to know, like, No matter how great of ideas we have and the way that things are gonna play out in our minds, like there's always that underlying potential that shit will get burnt to the ground, right?

Like things will happen, life will happen, will throw curve balls at you, and you're gonna feel really shitty about those things. But it's really important to, to be able to persevere, to be able to cope and to be able to keep pushing. Um, you know, a lot of boxing coach, let's say, like bite down on your mouth guard and keep moving forward, like as those blows are getting thrown at you and pick your spot, fire back, right?

Um, and I mean, that's exactly what you did, right? And I applaud for that cause that's, Yeah. I wanted to

[00:32:10] Caleb: learn, right? Wanted to learn from everything. I've always been cognizant of like learning from any mistakes that I made and other people's mistakes are actually more valuable to me than learning from my own.

So started to pick up that kind of trait right? To like see what other people were messing up . Sure. So I'd make less mistakes on my own.

[00:32:30] Mike: Yeah, no, it's, that's really important cuz I mean, it's great to, to know what to do, but it's also important to know what not to do. So, life lessons with Caleb here. have the mission control podcast.

Love it. So, alright, so now Caleb over starts overgrowing with, with your business partner now business partner. Was he business partner at

[00:32:50] Caleb: the time now business partner? Uh, he was a 10 99 salesman for me at the time. Mm, love it. So he, uh, I took him on as a partner in, uh, 2020. So,

[00:33:03] Mike: So what was the, what was the, I guess the swing boat to finally say, You know what, I'm not gonna do what my old boss did to where I resented him because I had done so much for the company.

What was his contribution that made it make sense to say, You know what? I want you to be a part of this thing for the long haul. I want you to be fast

[00:33:19] Caleb: as the bottom of.

It was, uh, a lot of things with having him to be fully invested in. What I wanted to do was to let him know that I was going to, uh, I was gonna go full on in with a marketing plan to make sure that he didn't have to go out knocking doors every day. Um, I knew that something that we had to do at the beginning because literally we were starting brand new, and so he was totally on board with that.

He's like, Dude, I'll go knock doors. He's like, My goal is just to keep you and your crew booked out the whole summer. And so he had that, you know, ingrained in him. He's like, I can't let Caleb down. I gotta make sure these guys are busy. I gotta make sure we're selling roofs. And, uh, you know, he was a cradle to the grave roofer, right?

Like he did the, the sales, uh, ordering the materials, um, communicating with the homeowners. Um, I think even pulling permits and ordering dumpsters, and I got to show. And roof the jobs, um, schedule my crews, pay the payroll, um, pay Chad, you know, his commissions, and, uh, keep all the finance together. I was doing all the marketing stuff to try and like infuse some, some of that and like brand building and, and um, you know, man, I worked a lot of, uh, 14 hour days just trying to figure out, you know, how, how to put this whole thing together, you know, the right way.

You know, And a lot of that too was just making sure everybody was paid every Friday. It was a luxury I had almost never had in this industry, was making sure I had a good paycheck every Friday. So I was always the last one to get paid, man. But that's, that's just the way it is. Yeah, that

[00:34:57] Mike: makes a lot of sense.

So you mean you weren't an overnight success, like the haters will say, uh, ? No.

[00:35:04] Caleb: No, man. Our first year of sales we did, um, we actually did like $330,000 in sales. So, um, I thought that was huge. You know, that was all

[00:35:15] Mike: our own. So you said that your partner's name's Chad. Yep. Where would, without having Chad in the early stages and now especially, where do you think over roofing would be?

Do you think you'd be anywhere close

[00:35:30] Caleb: to where you are today? No, man. Uh, the first thing absolutely. That, that was the first best thing for me as somebody that was in the trades trying to figure out like, um, how to, how to like, make this thing grow right from the start was to have a dedicated salesperson.

Yeah. You know? And, um, the second person I hired in the following year was another salesperson. Mm. So, um, the only other person after that was a production manager. So, you

[00:36:01] Mike: know. Yeah. I mean, that's really good insight, especially, you know, for, at the time a young business owner. Right. I, I think it's really important to understand your limitations, and I don't mean that from the place of you can't sell.

There is a million other things that have to be done within that business. Any business, especially roofing, right? And especially if you're dealing with claims like in Minnesota, um, there's so much that has to be done within that backend administrative follow up to where, I mean, one person, you just can't do it all right?

You'll be, you'll be dusting the burnout and no time. Uh, so I think it's really important, you know, for anyone out there who's in the midst of that dog fighter is going to be starting a business, uh, especially within roofing in the near future, be mindful of that. Be, be very mindful as far as what your capacity is, what you will and won't be able to do, and what you want to delegate in finding the right people to delegate to.

It's easy for me to sit here in a, in a room with Caleb and talk about how, you know, he did it and he, it sounds a lot easier than it's going to be. You're gonna break some eggs and make that omelet as I like to say. Um, but those are, are really important, fundamental aspects of running as success. So job well

[00:37:15] Caleb: done that, That's awesome.

That is huge. No lie, man. I, I, I do still enjoy, or I did enjoy sales for, for a long time. I just knew it wasn't my strong suit. Um, I had like one semi-formal sales training ever and it was like this, it was part of that roof in a box thing that, that the previous company I worked for did, there was this million dollar, um, million dollar sales training or something like that.

We flew somewhere and did like a two day class. But yeah, I don't know. I'm not a, I'm not a salesman man. I'm just, I'm just me. Right. Um, and I knew roofing that, that's all. So, um, I'm new. That's not something I was passionate about. I was passionate about the, the roof being done properly, the homeowner having a good experience and being notified, um, to make sure that we were putting on a good quality product.

Right. Um, and, and just to kind of like how that thing grows, right? Like building a brand and a company. , um, meant so much to me at this point in my life. I, I wanted to get it right, Like no matter what, I wasn't gonna, I wasn't gonna mess it up. This time, I, I put my name on the company and I, and I, I wrapped my trucks, you know, and I was like, this is it.

This is happening. Like, I love that shit. There's no going that,

[00:38:33] Mike: So like, let's talk about that, man. So you're all in, you have that, um, you've got your name attached to it. So like, you know, maybe that fueled you a little bit more to be like, this thing cannot fail, right? Because now it's my name, plaster all over, it's my reputation.

Um, maybe that made a difference, maybe it didn't. But now over over roofing is everywhere. What you talk about the brand, right? You talk about building a brand and you wanting that to happen. So what was your path to making over roofing what it is? It,

[00:39:06] Caleb: um, the path, So it started out a little wonky, right?

Like, uh, Home Advisor and, um, Angie's List and, uh, Thumbtack were, were out there. Um, I think like, uh, Yellow Book was doing some stuff. I tried a few things. Um, all of them were absolute trash, uh, was mostly just spinning my wheels. But the, the good thing is, is I spent a majority of that, uh, doing those things in the, the previous, um, company that I had tried starting up.

Um, you know, and I was getting leads, but I was having to like go to the leads in the evening or get to them before somebody else, and being a roofer. And there was a lot of things like I was roofing every day and trying to, um, you know, still be on my phone to capture those leads that were coming through.

And they were still so, so garbage. Um, the people I was even competing with were worse than, than my small company, right? They were like, true chuck, and the trucks like just terrible. So I didn't know how to be a, I didn't know how to differentiate myself at the. Um, nor did I have the funds to do so. So, um, you know, when, when starting over Roofing, uh, the first year was, um, trying to figure out Google and, uh, and Facebook.

So I, I spent a lot of time just trying to figure out those things and see, you know, um, what was working and what wasn't. And so I took those things on by myself. I, I don't know, I love like the technology and the, you know, getting in there and just getting my hands dirty and like trying to figure it out on my own.

Yeah. Um, and, and I felt like it could have lended to my experience going forward just to be able to know, like what to look for if I were to hire somebody in the future to do it. So, of course, um, started doing those things. It was actually working, um, by the time we got to 2018, I had gone to, um, uh, I had gone to the radio station, um, to talk to them about doing some radio advertising and, um, you know, still, it sounded really expensive.

And, um, I figured I was gonna try it anyways. I couldn't go all in like I had heard, but, um, and I, I don't know why, like the, the radio station was the next thing. I, I just figured like, look, there's no other roofing companies in my market actually doing it. Um, and, and I think when they do do it, it's very, very short lived and they're just trying to say some kind of message, um, or, or do some kind of a special, but I don't think that they were doing it very well.

They didn't have a jingle. They didn't, um, it wasn't like a constant, you know, like all year long or whatever, or all season long for Minnesota. And so I just looked at it as a space that, um, that I could like get into. And I did hear something from somebody that said, like, you know, if you're gonna do something in as far as marketing goes, um, or if you're gonna do marketing, like do one thing really well and like own that thing before you go on and try and like, do.

So, um, I can't remember the book. I think it's called The One Thing or whatever, where they talk about, um, you know, not doing, like, not trying to be really good at everything but like really doing one thing really well. So that was radio for me and, um, after like dabbling with it a little bit in my first year, uh, I did see some upticks on the day that I was doing it in my, in my, um, uh, Google Analytics, cuz um, what I did do is I sent all the traffic to my website.

So, um, and, and I, I found a really good partner for a website. So, um, the website that I got, they, the company that built it focused on roofing companies. And so I felt like partnering with somebody that spoke my language, um, really, really, really benefited to actually building a quality website that was going to, um, benefit me as a roofing contractor.

So, uh, we had a forum on the. I sent everybody to my website. That form captured all those leads and I sent all those leads to my sales team. So now we had like, uh, we started to get a funnel right? Um, and once I found out that the marriage between those two things, like the radio and the website was, was so kick ass, I started seeing the, the Google organic search go up.

Um, so much so that overt roofing has since we started doing radio, been our most, um, most search and found or whatever, um, keyword than anything ever is over or over roofing. That's brand maybe, huh? Yeah. So like our organic is crazy , um, just because of the radio, right? So, um, in between those seasons, then I got invited from the radio place that I was advertising with to go to this, um, conference.

It was called. Brands formation. And there was a, a speaker that, um, was speaking that actually wrote a book. And, um, it was all about like building a brand and like telling a story in building a brand. And when I was at that, um, is where I came up with the, the phrase that we still use to this day is your friend in the roofing business.

So I don't know if you've ever heard of any other companies or businesses in general using that, but I kind of heard it before, so I had to ask if I could use that. And I got the all clear, all good. And so, um, what I, what I tried to do in telling that story was that we're not a typical roofing contractor that you need to be afraid to hire to come and do your job.

You know, we are your friend in the roofing business because we're gonna do it. We say what we're gonna do. And we're gonna give you the product that we say we're going to, and we're gonna do good work. We're, we're not gonna, um, you know, we're not gonna do any shady stuff. Right. It was like trying to build that storyline of like, Look, you can trust us.

Sure. There's too many, there's too many, uh, bad companies out there, and there still was, you know, at that time that really just needed to get weeded out. That would steal people's money. They, they wouldn't pull permits, they wouldn't do good installs. We were constantly getting, you know, repair calls from other companies and in the, the terrible work that they did.

And so that's, that's really like the story and the branding that I wanted to build is like, we're your friend in the roofing business, Let's go.

[00:45:44] Mike: Yeah. That's amazing. I'm really glad that, you know, we didn't meet back then because I would've told you, you're too, you're crazy for, for investing all your money into radio.

and I mean, I guess you would've known what would've happened had you done it, but that definitely would, It would've, over roofing would've taken a different path. So I, I'm glad that we got to be what we did and that you were wildly successful. And, you know, it's, it's super intriguing to me because that's not, if you put a post out and you, or you talk to 500 roofing companies and you that have done radio and you talk about their experience, I think the overwhelming majority will say they've had an unfavorable experience.

Now you had hit on a couple different things that I think are really important. You mentioned a jingle and you mentioned consistency. Mm-hmm. . So especially with branding efforts, consistency and having the right expectation for yourself when you're investing in it is really important because far too often do people, and this is goes to as far as any business, they invest in something that's branding related, not acquisition driven.

Right. Where the end goal is to build your brand. But they pay for it for a couple months and they begin to get, they get real finicky if it's not working right away. That's not how branding works, right. , like you said, right? You're trying to build that trust and that authority in your market. And they, you might, the same person might hear you 19 times, 37 times before they decide to call you because they may not have, not have a need rate then and there, and that's fine.

Um, but when you're, you're cultivating the, the growth of your brand and the authority that it has as it's perceived by your target market, it takes time and you can't abandon it early. You have to stick with it. Caleb, can you sing your jingle for us? Would you do it? We sing singer. You jingle.

[00:47:34] Caleb: You got a friend in the roofing business at Oberg Roofing and Remodeling.

Oberg.

[00:47:42] Mike: Bam. There you have it folks. Dude. So

[00:47:45] Caleb: where did you come up with a jingle? I, I hired a company to. And, um, we went through a process of trying to figure out, um, something that I would actually enjoy listening to over a long journey of time. So they're like, What kind of music do you listen to? Um, um, you know, like, what do you want to, what do you want to be in the, what do you want to have in the jingle?

Like, what do you want to say? Right. And so, uh, you know, I like, uh, I like rock and roll and, um, I like, uh, I like Old Rock, New Rock, kind of Southern rock, all that kind of stuff. So they're like, How about Leonard Skynyrd and Kid Rock Mix? And I was like, That sounds awesome. Like, so that's what it is, you know?

And, uh, because of, uh, what it is, like it can play on any station. Like, um, I think the, the second radio station that we started branding on, like that we went full on with the schedule with was a country radio. . Nice. And there's, there's a, there's a science to that too with like the, the right station with the right clientele that you're trying to market to.

Um, if anybody's looking to get into it, I would tell you straight up, like, go straight to country, man. Those people are great customers. Um, they're, they're great people and, and they got money. So, um, they don't spend it all on beer and trucks. I guarantee it.

[00:49:10] Mike: you make a really good point, and I think one that's, that's worth shining a light on a little bit more, not only just in the context of radio, but you have to understand based on where you are placing your efforts from, whether it's marketing, advertising, branding, acquisition, you have to understand like being contextually relevant based on who's in that space that you're advertising to.

So the people that are on Instagram aren't the same people that are on Facebook aren't the same people on TikTok. Aren't the same people on radio. So having your brand messaging aligned contextually with who's on the other end of those airwaves or that smartphone or whatever it is that they're gonna be accessing your brand messaging with, is really, really important and can make a huge difference as far as the outcome of your advertising or brand outfits.

[00:49:58] Caleb: Yeah, absolutely, man. I mean, like everything was going so crazy e even back in like 20 18, 20 19, right? Like my, my still thought process was at one point like, do I need a website? Like everybody's on social media, But I'm like, Well, it's not everybody or whatever. So then, you know, it's like, well, we should probably get a website.

And then, and then it was like thinking about radio going, Well, I mean, like I stream, uh, I do Pandora, like I don't listen to the radio all the time. You know how many people are actually listening to the radio these days? And I was like, you know what? , like, no lie, there's like, a lot of people still listen to the radio.

Like, especially, you know, like think about fleet vehicles. Uh, those people don't have Bluetooth, right? So they're, they're having to listen to the radio all the time. Those are working class people. Those are my customers, right? Mm-hmm. . So like, there was so many things that I checked the boxes and I was like, this actually I think is really going to work.

And I mean, not gonna lie, the, the radio advertising doesn't cost as much at St. Cloud as it does in like the St. Paul, Minneapolis area, right? Yeah. So, um, it's, it's still is affordable and I mean, I know that like, um, you can get a, a roof sold for like way more than you can down in the St. Paul, Minneapolis area than you can in the St.

Cloud area. But I, I'm not even sure like, um, that it would even be affordable to do or as affordable in the early time as I was in my business to do the radio advertising.

[00:51:24] Mike: So is St. Cloud part of my ignorance? is St. Cloud a little bit more rural?

[00:51:30] Caleb: Um, well, the ST. Cloud is a, is a collection of cities. It's right around like six or seven cities.

They're all clumped together. Okay. Um, collectively, I think that the population, the inner city population within that area is probably right around 300,000 people. Okay. Um, and then, and then a lot of rural, you know, in, uh, towns that, um, spread out from there Right around like, uh, 10, 15, 20, 30 miles away.

There's a lot of, um, smaller towns around the ST. Cloud area, so. Gotcha. Um, not a, not a huge market, but, um, I mean, radio is still a big deal. There's, and I'll, Here's the example. I am currently on, uh, eight radio stations that broadcast in the St. Cloud area out of probably about 20 or more. 24. Okay. Mm-hmm.

So even in this smaller market, there's still like a lot of radio stations. So there's a lot of listeners. The only RA reason those radio stations stay in business is for people that actually advertise with them. We pay all their bills. Yeah. Otherwise they don't have a business.

[00:52:37] Mike: Sure. So I would, and this is strictly a hypothesis, there's no fact based reasoning associated with this, but my hypothesis would be the closer you are within like a metropolitan or city setting, the less likely people would be to tune into radio.

Um, and do you think I'd be way off base in saying that? Totally.

[00:53:02] Caleb: Oh, let me hear it. . It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. Like, I don't know, maybe I haven't looked at like every market across the United States and how it is, but there's radio stations are not going out of business. Okay. Um, you can do the research on that alone.

Radio stations are not going outta business. Uh, and, and it's because radio is not dead. It, it is a really good place to advertise your business. Okay. And one of the best ways to do it is literally is being consistent and, uh, providing a good message and having a jingle to have that, that audio tone that gets stuck in people's head.

I can't tell you how many times I've heard people tell me that they cannot get our jingle out of their head. It's Yes. Stuck. Yeah, it's stuck. People tell me that they think I'm on the radio every day of the week, all the time. , and I'm old. I'm not joking, man. They're like, You're on every day. And I'm like, No, I'm not.

I'm not. I'm on .

[00:54:09] Mike: Yeah. We didn't do that package. I could, I could assure you where that,

[00:54:12] Caleb: Yeah. Yeah, I'm on eight stations, uh, three days of the week, the same days, uh, of the week on every single radio station. The same, uh, uh, amount of times, uh, every single day on every single radio station. So the consistency is, is down.

So there's, um, two days out of the, out of the week, the weekday that I don't even do any radio advertising on, and I don't do it on the weekends either. Why?

Because the other day's work. I don't know why. Like, why, why try and go outside of something that I know already works so well? Um, you know, and I think on the weekends, um, is when people spend a lot of time together with their families and they don't have that commute time or that time to themselves to even like be that cognizant of like the radio ads that are on.

Sure. Right. So, um, you know, if they're traveling, you know, they might have, their kids might have tablets on, or they're listening to kids' music, or they're staring at the, the passengers staring at their phone anyways and they're doing the social media, or maybe they're listening to a podcast or whatever.

And then, you know, maybe mission control

[00:55:25] Mike: podcast. Yeah. , they're

[00:55:29] Caleb: not, and maybe, maybe mom or dad is, is listening to, uh, you know, their Pandora or they're listening to a, a a a game. You know, whether it's, um, football, college football or basketball. There's a lot of sports that are being played on the weekends, whether it's college or, or, uh, professional.

Sure. So it just, it just takes away from more of the opportunities for, for listeners, I think, on the weekend. So,

[00:55:52] Mike: So as far as the, and that's a really good point, I think, um, I think those are really good intuitions they have, and they make a lot of sense. as far as the weekdays, did you, have you always deployed on the same three days?

On the same three times? Have you kind of tested out different time slots to, to understand what difference this has made? Have you ab tested, were you doing radio before the jingle and after? These are all the things that su that get me super excited.

[00:56:20] Caleb: Yeah, absolutely. , uh, year one, no jingle. We did, um, we tested a few different days of the week just to see, uh, you know, the, the traction.

Um, mostly it had to do with, uh, tracking it on our Google and our website leads cuz there's no other way to track radio. So I knew that the only way I could do it, uh, well there's two ways, right? So like, you can offer up a phone number that you can have tracked. That's specifically for radio, right? But I'm like, well, who's gonna sit there?

write down a number, right? Or, or you have to have like a, a such a catchy phone number that like, people will never forget it, right? But that takes time to build that kind of, um, thing. And I wanted results immediately. So I knew that if I sent people to my website, that my website was good enough, I was gonna be able to capture those leads.

So it was a marriage between the two. I'm like, I have a kick ass fricking website, man. I'm telling you. I was like, this thing is legit. I got everybody in my market beat, hands down. Um, and this was like in my first year of business, I already have the best website. And, um, by year two, my seo, uh, was ranked number one out of all my competition in the market.

Page one, everything just dominating. So, uh, I, I paired the two together, right? I don't think it could have done it without one or the other. Sure. So, Tried a few different days. Um, and then also was trying to, um, you know, listen to the people at the radio station and see kind of what worked. And, um, uh, you know, ultimately, like, I don't know if it was from some of the research that I did or just kind of like paying attention, but like, I came to them in, in year two and I was like, I want to do, uh, a consistent, uh, branding on one radio station.

And I wanted to be, um, three different days of the week. And I picked the days and I told them, you know, um, and they were like, We were actually gonna pitch you that exact same thing. And I was like, Cool, let's do it. So right from the start, they were thank thanking me for being prepared and like knowing what I wanted and all that stuff.

And I was like, This is cool. I like these people. . Yeah. So, so yeah, I mean, one, one station turned into, uh, you know, into three. And then, um, you know, now like I said, we've, we've done 10 radio stations at a time before. Um, and then, uh, Just through like some of the, the deals or whatever. Um, we're down to eight, so, um, probably look to expand.

I mean, we're hitting the major ones. We've got like two different country ones. We got a, a Christian radio station, we got a light station, we got a, a news station, we got a sports station, we got a rock station. Um, um, I mean we're, we're, we're hitting all the spectrums, right? Sure. Alright.

[00:59:09] Mike: Now are you doing just spots, are you doing endorsements by the, by like the personality or the dj?

What is the approach? Yeah,

[00:59:18] Caleb: good question. Yep. So we, we have done some deals with, um, some of the DJs. Um, one of the cool programs and, and I mean you gotta talk to the, you know, the radio companies that might be in your market. Um, the one that we work with, they give their, um, their employees a. For, uh, basically buying our services through this thing called Marketplace.

So we kind of do like a trade deal. Nice. So I went into that knowing that I was gonna spend a certain amount anyways, and I, so we started doing the marketplace thing. So now we've had probably, um, over the years we've had about 16 customers for, that were employees of the radio station. Oh. And so a few of them were, uh, we're DJs and so we did like some separate things where, um, they would be like, we did some really fun stuff.

I'm not gonna lie, I like to have fun with the, the radio advertising. Yeah. So we would make it like enjoyable, you know, where I'd have kids, you know, or teenagers that would come up to me and tell me like, Dude, your radio stations are so much fun. Are you, radio advertisers are so much fun to listen to.

Like, you guys are having so much fun in there. Like, oh my gosh. Like, it's just like when I'm not listening to the radio, like, I enjoy your commercials. And I was just like, boom, let's go. Yeah. You know, let's make it fun. So yeah, I mean, we did that, right? We, we worked with those, uh, DJs and we did their projects.

Like we did a, we do remodeling too. So one of them, um, it was actually, uh, a couple that are on, um, the same radio station that have two different shows they're married. Um, we finished their basement for them. Um, they did some social media stuff on their side too to kinda like help with the boosting, obviously like, um, was like a side deal.

And, uh, costed a little bit more money, but it totally worked. Um, it completely kicked off and this was the time when we were starting to really like grow our remodeling side and it completely freaking exploded, man. Wow. That's, I haven't even done any remodeling advertising since I did that. Really? I don't do it on Google.

I don't do it. Yeah. But now it's just referrals and I don't know, just having the, the. Uh, conversation with the, our customers that we already do roofing and siding services for. Yeah. They're like, Yeah, you guys do remodeling too, right? And they're like, Yep, Uhhuh . Yeah. What can you guys do? It's like, um, well we, we do everything, you know, like, we'll, we'll finish a basement, we'll do a bathroom, we'll do a kitchen We'll, you know, whatever.

[01:01:45] Mike: So do you ever fear that, like in being in offering all those services you had mentioned before, how kind of alluded to you don't want to be, it was in a different context. You don't want to be the jack of all trades, master of none. Right. Um, like if you want to do something, lock in on it, become really, really good at it and focus on that and then kind of move out.

Do you ever fear that like your branding becomes diluted if you're offering all these different services to

[01:02:13] Caleb: the community? Nope. Nope. We, we, um, uh, we started in roofing and, um, I developed such a seamless. Process for estimating and selling and, uh, producing all of those, all of the roofing that we do. Um, we have one guy, a production coordinator that manages a hundred percent of our roofing and does it with absolute ease.

Um, we've got a really good, uh, um, basically a relationship with our subcontractors that we use. We've had, um, strong relationships with them for years and, uh, so we don't really have to do too much searching on that aspect. Um, so we really nailed it on the roofing side. Created like the best systems, processes, you know, everything for sales all the way through.

Right. Um, that it's actually so easy. Um, if I was only doing roofing and uh, um, I only wanted to do like, you know, maybe a few million a year in like one market, yeah, I could go, if could go live on an island somewhere and manage my company for your laptop, .

[01:03:21] Mike: So I'm assuming, again, I don't like being bored.

Sure. Um, and listen, I go crazy when I'm bored, so I'm always, uh, getting distracted by something. That's why Podcasting's great for me. I love it. Thank you for coming today. Uh, . Yeah, no, I appreciate it. This is awesome. So you didn't wake up in 2017 when you launched over grouping remodeling and say, Okay, like, we've got these bulletproof process for, for everything.

Right. So like, let's talk about, and I think this will be really helpful to a lot of people. Let's talk about like what, what, what were some of the pain points? What was the, from, from growing your company and as things began to, um, come to fruition and kind of morph into what you are. , what were different components that were really integral and really, really important as part of that?

And whether it be bringing out help from the outside, Is it watching YouTube? Is it following certain people? Feel free to give shameless plugs. Um, because ultimately we just want to help the viewers who and what played a pivotal role in that growth as far as your systems and

[01:04:30] Caleb: processes. Yeah, man, it's, uh, that's actually huge.

I, um, I spent a lot of time on YouTube and just, uh, trying to follow other, uh, people in the industry. Um, it was a really good time to start a roofing company and, uh, you know, and, and still do like retail and insurance work. Um, Dimitri, uh, had, was giving out so much free information on YouTube. Um, I think it was right around 2018.

I think maybe I found Dimitri 2018 or 2019. . Mm-hmm. , um, really just started, you know, following him. I had never like, uh, uh, got any of his products or any of his help, cuz I think that he gave so much information for free on YouTube. Um, and he, he was really a person watching him. I was like, you know, there's a lot of these things that I, I can do, like really easily, like creating videos, Um, yeah, just kind of like doing stuff, right?

Like, you know, uh, there, there was a lot, right? And then all of the other people that he worked with too, so like, uh, I saw him, I started seeing Adam Sand come around here and there and I think Adam Sand spoke at like, his conference and um, you know, so like I had, uh, I think it was just before Covid, um, I had the want and need to, to meet Adam Sand.

I think it was, uh, sbg. I ended up going out there. I knew he was gonna be out there. He was starting to do something. Um, with somebody that didn't end up working anyways, but I knew he was gonna be there at a booth, so, Sure. Uh, I had, I, I had a, I had a goal, like my, my only goal was to go out there and meet Adam Sand.

Nice. So, went out there and, uh, totally, I kept stalking his booth. He was never there. And so, like, , I was like, Where is this guy, man? You know? And like, I went over there one time and there was like, you know, like three, four people standing around him. So, um, uh, like I couldn't ever get to talk to him.

Finally, um, I just like sat there and hung out and waited for him to come by. And, uh, I went right up to him and introduced myself and I'm like, I'm like, Dude, I've been following you. And like, I, like, I really enjoy like, just kind of like listening to you, like talk about, you know, what you're doing and stuff.

Cause he was doing a lot of the video, um, uh, kind of like the video process, right? Where like you would, you would create a, a video up on the roof. to uh, show the customer, you know, something they had never seen before, which is the, the roof that they had. Yeah. And, and identify things that maybe the previous roofer had done wrong or just talk about the ways that you're gonna do it.

Right. Yeah. And then like get that video in front of the customer, like send it to them, you know, link somehow. I didn't understand all that, but you know, I was like, somehow he is doing it. I don't know if it's an iPhone thing. He was always on an iPhone. Yeah. This sounds really good. . Yeah. And then he also did like the ground plan video and, you know, he did a lot of video stuff and I was like, this, this I think is something I can use, you know, with my sales department to really kind of like be a differentiator and kind of like open up, you know, who we are and like be more, uh, personable and allow for the barriers, the walls to come down with the customer a little bit easier.

Cause now like you're being the, the fearful person behind the camera that a lot of people are afraid to do, and. Giving them this information of their actual roof and like showing them what it looks like and talking to them about how you're gonna make it right or whatever. Right. There was so many things like just showing hail damage, even when there's hail, like going around saying, Look, this is the hail you have on your roof, and it's all over.

Right. Rather than somebody from the ground, like back then, man, I mean, I'm telling you, um, a lot of times you'd get these door knockers that come around and be like, Yo, you got hail up on your roof. And the the, the customers are like, What do you mean? Were you on my roof? Like, you have a drone? Like, what are you doing?

They're like, No, you got hail on your roof. I can see it. You can't, you can't see help from the ground, man. Yeah. Um, anyways, like that was kind of the, you know, like thing. I'm like, okay, so, um, talk to Adam Sand and, um, I, I hired him to come out here and work with my, uh, sales team to teach 'em the videos and like get 'em over the hump.

Um, me alone telling 'em that they had to do it or they should do it wasn't enough. But the fact that I hired somebody to come out there and teach 'em how to do it, um, further edified the fact that like, this is the thing that you guys are gonna want to do to further your career as a salesperson in my company and in a salesman in general in the roofing industry.

So, um, having that consultant and paying somebody to come out here and do it like concrete, the fact that like, Caleb knows, like it's already, this was 2019, like Caleb's already building this amazing company. Uh, we should, we should trust him and like just break down the barriers to like do the new thing.

Uh, one of my guys started doing it, dude, and just freaking crushed it with the videos. He was, he was having the people that he sent the link to for the video shared so many times that he was getting referrals. On top of referrals. On top of referrals, on top of referrals. So much so that I couldn't even send the guy a lead anymore because he already built the pipeline.

I'm not kidding you, man. That's awesome. Built his own, he built his own pipeline following this process that is so massive. Um, he started doing this in 2019 and 2020 during Covid. Um, it grew so much so that in 2020 here, like we've barely given him any leads and he's got, um, he's got well over 3 million in sales of his own pipeline.

Geez. Yeah, it's amazing. So then, go ahead. So then with Adam Sand, he was here and, um, he didn't have anything to do for a little while, so he hung out a little bit longer and I was getting to know him, which is pretty cool. He told me that he, he loves doing CRMs and I was using a CRM at the time. Um, and I, you know, like I wanted to talk about it because the problem with the CRM I had, not necessarily the CRM itself, but my.

Is that I kind of pushed this on them and I told them, you know, like, you gotta start doing this, uh, filling these properties, you know, I need to know what's going on in my business. All this stuff. Cause prior to that, man, I'm telling you, we ran our company off of Dropbox and, and fricking QuickBooks. Okay.

Dropbox and QuickBooks . Yeah. So that was our crf then it was, uh, a different one. Um, didn't get good adoption. Adam Sand was telling me that he does, uh, CRMs, you know, um, it's something he really loves to do. And I was like, You do. I'm like, You've never said anything about it. Like, are you, are you seriously good at this?

Or is this like something you're just messing with me, You don't want to get some extra money or something, Right? I'm like, I don't know. I'm like, I don't know. He's like, No man. He's like, I built one for this company out in Hawaii. You know, they're doing like, um, they're doing like, uh, 10 or 15 million in sales with, with this one that I built, you know?

And I was like, legit. I'm like, That sounds legit. Yeah. He started telling me about HubSpot and how he was working on trying to like start doing that. And I was like, Well dude, if you're, if we're gonna do this, like you gotta get me the new best thing. And so he, we ended up being his first HubSpot build out customer for a crm.

Mm-hmm. . Um, and now he's actually here in my office doing a, a second rollout, an update, um, Ray Town. Yeah.

[01:12:17] Mike: Huh? Yeah, he's up. Adam . He's over there

[01:12:21] Caleb: somewhere. That's funny. Yeah. Uh, so Adam's back, um, he's actually leaving today. He's heading out, uh, he's on a long trip again to go to a whole bunch of other states and talk to a whole bunch of other people and help a bunch of, whole bunch of other roofing contractors with all their needs.

Um, Cool. Yeah. If anybody needs a kick ass custom built crm, like, you know, you guys gotta call Adam Sam. ,

[01:12:45] Mike: you heard it here first, folks. It's, it is really interesting. You had, you had brought up a point of like bringing in an external party. In this case it was Adam, but in a lot of other cases it won't be Adam for a lot of other people, but just the legitimacy that really that affirmation from an external person will bring in mobilizing your team to actually do what it is that you've been asking them to do.

Like that power of affirmation. Um, it's funny cuz like I'm a parent as well and I don't know if, you know, in having, you know, four kids, you've ever had a situation where like you've been asking your child to do something at home all the time and you get pushback, you get push back, you get push. And then like, you know, you go to a parent teacher conference and they're like, Yeah, you know, she does that all the time here.

And I was like, Yeah, we never happened to ask her twice for anything. I was like,

[01:13:36] Caleb: Huh. Yeah man. Teach me your nos. . Yeah. Literally teachers tell me that, uh, my kids are amazing. They're like the best, you know, Everybody loves 'em, all this stuff. I'm like, man, they drive me nuts at home.

[01:13:54] Mike: Yeah. So I couldn't agree more that, you know, it's not always a situation where you're bringing somebody in because you just don't know. Um, like you had said, like the adoption of these processes, procedures, softwares, and the fact that you can get a team to actually use them the way that they're intended to be used is paramount to the success of whatever it is that you're implementing.

It's garbage in, garbage out. I mean, you could have. Adam, you, you know, if you brought an Adam to build you outta crm, if you brought, you purchased any CRM of any kind, if you don't have your team actually on board and utilizing it, it's not Adam's fault. It's not this person's fault, It's not job Nimbus's fault that it doesn't, you know, your company's not thriving because of it.

You have to make sure that your team's getting on board and if you bring external people in to help guide them and show them the way and affirm the messaging that you've had, you've got a much better likelihood of doing that.

[01:14:52] Caleb: Um, yeah, absolutely, man. You know, and I've always taken, um, when I, when I bring in a consultant or I hire somebody, um, the thing that I always look at is, you know, what are their intentions and, and to help my business, you know, how does that work for me?

Cuz like, I am very firm in the way that I want to conduct business and, and, uh, how I think it should be done. So when I look at these consultants, I look at like, are they gonna help build my my vision or are they gonna bring in their own and try and like, change everything? Cause a lot of, a lot of companies out there, they, they have their whole program in a box, right?

So like, you pay for them, they come out, they tell you how it is. And if you're not prepared for that, you're gonna waste a crap load of money. Um, I hear of a lot of companies out there that are bringing in like all the different sales gurus they might have, like, they might have had like four or five, six of them come through their office.

You gotta pick one and you got like, you gotta do the one that works with your market and your business to just change a few things. Like take, have your takeaways right. Figure out how that consultant's gonna help build your vision. Okay. If your vision needs some work, talk to them about what the experience they have with other roofing companies maybe.

Yeah. Um, You know, Adam Sand is great cause he's been to a lot of roofing companies. He's, he's got a really good idea of, of what he's doing. Yeah. Um, we, we definitely collaborated quite a bit on building out our systems and processes. Um, he brings a lot of experience to the table with that. He's got a really good team behind him as well.

And most people don't know that he, I think he employs, um, I think it's right around like eight people right now, just in his, uh, roofing business partner. So he, he's got a solid team behind him and it's growing. Yeah.

[01:16:46] Mike: That's awesome. That's, uh, Yeah.

[01:16:50] Caleb: I'm sorry. Go ahead. Always with a consultant man. Like, find, find somebody that's gonna help build your vision, right.

Somebody you can work on to build your vision.

[01:17:00] Mike: You mentioned something in there that I think, uh, is, is very, very important and it's like the, the collaboration I've found over the years. That the quickest way that somebody can run into issues with something being productive or it being a complete failure, is there's an expectation.

If I pay person A for this, I can get put it on their plate, have nothing to do with it, and you know, it should be done for me. It's one of, you know, and that's the end of it. And that that usually is not going to be the case, right? Whether you're talking about build, especially building a crm, if you're talking about, obviously I do marketing advertising.

If you're talking about marketing and advertising, like there's typically, there should be some sort of expectation that you should have a hand in it. Nobody's gonna care about your business more than you are going to. And I think the more people that understand that, the better off that there will be trust but verify, right?

Like when you're hiring somebody to do something and they're telling you these things, verify that they're the case, right? Um, And like one more thing that you had mentioned as far as like where you got your education or like, I guess the confidence in some education from, as far as like online resources, YouTube, Right?

That's how you found Meri. That's how you found Adam. Sam was exposure through these free, um, platforms use good information that people are giving out for free. Like whether you're talking about manufacturers or you're talking about like roofing insights or sales and marketing. There are so many resources that are available for free if you look for them and you put the time in, you have to put the time in, but most people won't.

Right. So, you know, you know, like for my, for my YouTube channel, I base my content. Of questions that I've been asked consistently over the years, Questions that still come up from my clients every day. So my assumption is, okay, so if I've got seven people asking me about this in the last 30 days, there's probably, you know, 7,000 other people that want to know the same thing.

And then I'll publish it and it'll be like 12 views. And I'm like, . I'm like, Why, why do only 12 people wanna watch my content? Um, and, and there's some algorithmic things as like the YouTube channels relatively new and, and we're working on that and the content velocity, how frequently we deploying the content.

But, you know, there's a lot to be learned from a lot of great people that put a lot of time into those types of resources and you could benefit immensely from them. And, uh, I think that's really underutilized. It's, it's, it's hard, right? Because there's so much shit that we're getting pulled in every different direction and it's just information overload.

So I think you have to be really intentional as far as. How much time and where you're gonna spend that time. If you're looking towards free

[01:19:53] Caleb: resources, I feel like you have to take the information in, um, even if it's from somebody you don't know, but they have a different perspective and a different idea, or maybe it's some, some way that they do it in their market.

And then you have to like put all of those things together with what you know, you might think is, uh, necessary for your market and try to like build a formula or a perspective, a whole perspective around the concept or the idea. So like a lot of times we're always, we're always looking to make sure like we're doing what's best for our customers, what's best for our sales reps, what's best for our employees, all that kind of stuff.

To, to, to like have a good business. Right? Yeah. And constantly, I'm trying to build perspective and grow like. There's so many different things that we've had to do in this company in the last six years, five and a half years to change different things that we were doing. But as long as you're not doing it to the detriment of your team or the detriment of your customers, you're, you're more than likely gonna come out on top.

Change is absolutely necessary. Um, I, I, years ago, man, like, uh, I got into philosophy and all that kind of stuff and I learned about this guy hair colitis and he, not in his own words, but, you know, over the years, cuz he was like 400 bc um, they, they, I think his original words were as no man ever steps twice, twice in the same river.

So what that came down to is that change is the only constant. Somebody years later coined that or said that's what he was basically saying. And I got that shit tattooed on my fucking arm because change is the only constant. If you're not changing, you're freaking dying and you're, you're gonna be gone.

Nobody will remember you, you're not leaving a legacy. You're doing nothing for your employees. You're doing nothing for your own future. You have to keep up with what's going on. You have to, I mean, you should be continuing to grow to benefit your employees. Give them an opportunity to like achieve something more than just staying as a, uh, you know, an installer, right.

To, to just staying as a salesperson. Maybe they want to be a sales manager someday. Like you, you gotta create those opportunities to leave a legacy for not only you, but even for your employees. Like they want to, they want to leave a mark too. Yeah. A lot of people don't think about that man, but like my employees, like, they wanna leave a mark in this industry too.

They want to do what's right and they want to do it. They want to do it in the best way possible. So we, I mean, we, we adopt that culture, man. It's, it's the way we are here. People are used to it. Plus I got a lot of energy and a lot of ideas. So yeah. Get on board. Let's go.

[01:22:47] Mike: Well, I mean, dude, I, I, I couldn't agree more with the changes.

The only thing that's constant, right? It's, and sometimes it's, you know, very inconsequential change. Sometimes it's drastic change and, you know, you'll benefit from, you know, it's, it can be challenging, right? I think let's not oversimplify like determining what you should change and when. So like, be mindful of your business and like you said, the context, be situationally aware, but you do have to lean into change, right?

Because you can't, like, if you don't, it could cost you dearly and it's your job as a leader of a company and the leader of a workforce, and you're responsible for those people and their families and things like that, to, to keep the, especially the financial health of the company in mind and make decisions that are going to better the company and those involved with it.

Uh, so that's awesome. I, I said not too long ago, and maybe this was coined before that, I didn't find that anymore when I did a Google search. But, uh, you know, Money of tracks, talent and culture retains it. You know, I've found, you know, Yeah, I know a lot of people I know past shop that I've had where I, you know, they've done very well.

I've done very well financially, and it's like, I, I can't stay on my life. I don't care how much you pay me, I'm out. Right? So you had touched on culture. So what, what have you done that has created that culture that people wanna be a part of? Their, they're legacy oriented, right? They're thinking of these things.

Not a lot of people think of the, of legacy, right? And all in all, they're just super happy being a part of over over roofing because they believe in what you do and they believe in the values that you stand for.

[01:24:29] Caleb: Right on. So, um, Uh, as of about this time last year, I actually only had right around, I think it was like 12 employees.

Um, in the year before that I had two. So, um, this is, this is all really new and like even the, the, the concept of like culture and everything is like very on point for me because, um, uh, it's something I wanted to do, but I didn't know if it was necessary, you know, two years ago. Right. Two employees. What are any core values for Right?

Sure. Subcontract majority of our work. Um, but a lot of things has happened in the growth since then. And currently today, having 45 employees and knowing that with, uh, the growth that we had last year, that we were gonna be hiring a bunch of more people and growing the company. I took the initiative to start, um, with 401k with.

Health and, uh, dental and vision and um, uh, supplementary like, uh, Aflac Insurance. So we, we offer all of these things just to give people in this industry the ability to know that they have health insurance to ability to know that they're gonna have, uh, 401k, that they can retire at some, um, hopefully earlier than, than the projected, you know, 65, 67 years old, whatever it is.

I think it changes 67 now. Um, the, the ability to know that like if any incidental thing happens, that they're gonna get some, you know, incidentals, they'll be able to provide insurance for their family, their kids, everybody, right? Like I'd never even had a 401K until I started my own. I never had health insurance other than one that my wife provided for me previously from her employer.

It's just not something that's ever been prevalent in this industry. And it's something that I knew that if I wanted to hire, recruit, retain, um, and then do what's best for my employees, is that's the stuff I had to establish. So I did that first. That's something we started, uh, January. I think it was either end of December or or January.

Right away we had the 401K and the health, um, set up. And then, um, as the year progressed this year, we got our, uh, dental vision and uh, um, Aflac set up for everybody. So, um, that's been amazing. Everybody loves it. It's not even that difficult to do. Um, I mean, we do have like HR requirements and a lot of other stuff now.

Sure. So there's, there's a lot more to unpack there. Uhhuh, , but, um, it's kind of boring stuff a little bit. So the other stuff that, um, that we do like, okay, so, uh, David Carroll put out a post. I mean, he puts out a bunch of random stuff, right? And, um, So he said something about, Hey, have you guys ever thought about core values?

And I'm like, Yeah, man. Actually I've thought about it for a few years, is what I was thinking in my head, right? And I'm like, you know, I think I said something like, Yeah, I need to get core values. And then, um, Jessica Stahl from Ignite Results says like something like, Hey, I got you, you know, sending me a DM or something like that.

And I'm like, Oh, wow, cool. Let's get some core values, you know? Yeah. Um, in talking to Jessica, she's like, she's like, Well, let's talk about your business and your people. And, uh, she's like, core values is definitely something I do, but she's like, I do a whole lot more. And she's like, I'd really like if you got the time or the want to talk about your business.

Um, she's like, you know, let's see if, uh, see if there's anything else out there for you. So we went through the whole thing, man. Um, worked with her and Melina to get, uh, the core values established, and now we're, um, gonna be rolling them out like quarter by quarter. So we don't just throw everything, it just ba puke on everybody.

Here's the core values. And then, you know, none of it sticks kind of. . So what the core values does is it, it allows for all of the other culture building to just naturally happen. It brings, and if you do 'em, right, right? Like it includes everybody in the business to be like a family, a team, uh, people that are watching out, for other people watching out for the customer experience.

Um, just like everything. Um, they're, they're very, they're very close and personal to me in, um, you know, my own kind of moral compass and all that kind of stuff. So, um, they just, I just love 'em. I think anybody that, you know, has like the want and need to do core values in a culture, don't waste any more time, man.

If you got, if you got 10 employees, like just start doing it right now, you're gonna attract more people and the right kind of people. Um, we've had, you know, just this year in some of the employees that we've hired, we've had them actually. bring in their spouses or significant others or other family members to come work here because they enjoy it so much because of, uh, the way we, the way we operate and the way just kind of like the team and the people are, um, the culture here is, is freaking awesome, man.

Yeah, that's dope. All the people that I have here at OB Gring, I mean, shout out to everybody that might be watching, uh, you know, at ob gring. Love you guys. You guys are awesome.

[01:29:41] Mike: Mm. Yeah, I think that's, that's really good. And it's not just something you put on your wall, right? Like these are our core values, right?

You have to, you have to embody those, right? You have to, you have to have your finger on the pulses of the, of the company and the climate within it to make sure that individuals are really, I guess, living their life through those core values. Would you agree with that statement to some degree.

[01:30:07] Caleb: Yeah, absolutely.

I mean, here's the thing, man, like everybody knows that you spend a majority of your time and your days at work with the people that you work with, like you to have a culture and a team, a family, however you want to say it at work, means more than a paycheck. Okay? Like if you don't, if you don't enjoy your time at work and you don't enjoy your employees or whatever, uh, if there's no culture, if there's no, you know, growth, you know, minded company there where people, you know, might be able to move to the next level, you know, if people are constantly wondering, like, you know, oh, you know, I went to school for, um, you know, finance, but they're, you know, the owner's doing all the bookkeeping or whatever, right?

Um, if, if you're not allowing for that opportunity for them to want to move into something else, you are not providing enough for them and they're going to leave, okay? They're gonna leave. You're gonna come work for me,

[01:31:11] Mike: Let's go. That's awesome. Yeah. I think, uh, that's it. That's it makes perfect sense. And I can't tell you how many people I've had throughout the years are like, Oh, I lost this person. I lost this person. I lost this person. Why? You know, they, they got a better off for somewhere else. If you have somebody that makes a reasonable wage, they could, I would argue they could even be underpaid as, as it relates to your market, but they're happy with the people that they work with, right?

They look forward to coming in on Monday and maybe talking for 10 minutes after the morning meeting about their fantasy football team with, you know, three of the guys that they work with or whatever the case may be. Right? They just enjoy that atmosphere. They are so much more likely to stay. They're not gonna leave for a dollar an hour somewhere else.

Right. That relationship becomes more sticky because that's hard to find. Right. It's not, It is hard to find somebody that's willing to pay you a little bit more for your experience. Right. The, like those offers are, are ubiquitous in most instances, but to find a place that you're confident is going to actually provide a work environment, like they say on that job description when they're on Indeed, or whatever the case may be, I feel like most people doubt the likelihood of a, of an employer being able to deliver that experience.

So they know that they've got that in this company, in this instance over at Roofing. So like why would they ever want to leave? Right. Not to mention, you know, you're just, you're taking a ladle and just pouring out the value with health insurance and you're doing matching contributions. Like, I feel like that's not something that's typical in the industry, right.

How, Let me ask you this. Do you feel like your experience, especially what you, what you experienced in earlier on in your career with the accident and falling off the roof, do you feel like that created a sense of urgency for you when you started your own as far as like coveting that as an, as a

[01:33:11] Caleb: priority?

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Um, there, there's, there's a, there's a few aspects that come into play there. Mm-hmm. . Um, so when I look at, you know, I think I said that there, we have, uh, couples that work here. Yeah. You know, some of 'em work out in the field, some of 'em work in the office and, you know, I look at like young couples that, um, they both really love it here and they are potentially gonna have their own family.

If I can't provide benefits for them, uh, one or both of them are gonna leave. And I don't want my people to leave. Like, I, I get invested in, in them. Not, not just money wise, but in time and training and. , uh, you know, I really enjoy the people that I work with, that if I was not to put those things into place and lose somebody like that would suck.

Like, that's my fault. I screwed up. I should have done something else. I should have put those things there. I didn't, I never wanna look back and say I should have done that thing. Right. It's like, that's one of the, the things that kind of haunts me, right? I never wanna look back and say, I should've, should've coulda, would've.

My dad used to gimme crap about that when I was a kid, you know, getting on you about doing chores or something like that, and he'd throwing out an excuse and you'd say, should'a, coulda would've. Yeah. It's stuck in my head, man. Yeah,

[01:34:35] Mike: Love it. So what has that done in your recruitment efforts? I know that you said you brought in a couple, like, um, a couple partners in as a result of, you know, them experiencing firsthand, but what about people that don't know the company? Right. ,

[01:34:53] Caleb: How is that helps? Yeah, so it, it helps, it helps a lot. Um, one of the biggest things that we get, um, when interviewing people is they look at a growing company and an opportunity to help build and grow with a growing company.

One of the biggest, biggest things that we hear, everybody that we are, uh, hiring, you know, interviewing everything, they're like, I just want to get on the train. Like, you guys are just, you guys are flying, you know, whatever on the airplane, not a train. You guys are flying. You guys are soaring, you know, on a, on a ride.

Yeah.

Yeah. So that's, I mean, that's been one thing that's been the resounding biggest thing for recruiting and hiring good people. Um, the benefits is that icing on the cake, man, they can feel secure. knowing that they're going to work for a company that cares about their employees and not just about the growth.

Okay? Mm-hmm. , if you do those things to build that foundation, it's not all about me as the ceo, the owner, um, and, and my paycheck or the, the company and all of the things that we're trying to do to grow. It's the things that we do for our people. It's the things that we do for our, our customers. It's the things that we do that, that allows this thing to be the foundation and the strong rocket ship that it is, man, just taking off and not looking back.

[01:36:21] Mike: Yeah. No, there's no doubt about it. And like culture's just so important. I can't, I could say it's something blue in the face, like part of our interview process is I ask the, the candidate to pull out a pen and paper, or I'll provide 'em with a pen and paper if they're in person, and it's like, All right, rank these things, right?

Money, work life balance, upward mobility. Customer experience right now, Assign there's, there's four things now provide sign of value as far as priority of importance. And it's tough, right? , like you're sitting on the other end of that. Like, that's really challenging. Um, but I wanna see where people are at, like, where is their mind at?

Is this somebody who's gonna say, you know, I'm culture oriented. And, and they're just, they just want it for the money, right? They want the position for the money. Cause like, I don't know, there's a lot of people that can fill that seat that would just want the money and I don't feel like they're gonna be vested as, as the next person potentially.

Right? Like, I want somebody who's gonna become enthralled into that culture are gonna become interwoven to where it's like a family, right? And I think those things are really important. Dude, you're killing it. Great job, man. . Is there anything else you wanna leave the audience with before we get up outta here?

[01:37:34] Caleb: Um, I mean, with any business, um, you gotta know your people. You gotta know your market and you gotta, you gotta know, um, you know what every, like a little bit of what everybody else is doing to create a perspective, to help build the vision, to put everything together. Yeah. So if you can keep those things, you know, in place, I think like, just about anybody could find a right formula in any market to, to make it happen.

So that's about it, man.

[01:38:09] Mike: There you go. So be aware. Take bits and pieces. Bake your own cake with it, Right? Maybe tweak a little something a little bit here, add a little bit of that, um, you know, but you don't always have to reinvent the wheel. Dude, that's really good advice. Uh, very appreciative for you spending your time with us today, Caleb.

And uh, I had a blast, man. I hope you did too.

[01:38:29] Caleb: Man, I loved it. Thank you so much. Yeah, absolutely.

Mike has Pete McKendrick of Roofr on the show! Roofr, what started as a measurement tool, is now also a sales platform. Roofr takes your roof measurements and has an integrated innovative proposal feature built in.

Roofr is a all in one sales platform which helps contractors optimize their time by allowing them to give their potential customers a proposal feature with those exact measurements in under 10 minutes.

Mike & Pete go into how in the industry, contractors want to take as much manual labor out as possible and optimize time and profits, and Roofr allows contractors to do that.

Contact us! [email protected]

Let's Connect! ==== ==== ==== Website: https://bit.ly/3NQXXKK Facebook: https://bit.ly/3xH8VaT Linkedin: https://bit.ly/3RWTSyr ==== ==== ====

[00:00:00] Pete: Lean heavy on that crm and don't necessarily worry about, you know, plugging in tons of integrations. If

[00:00:06] Mike: you're going to improve your crm, you're always trying to improve, improve, improve, improve, and you kind of lose sight of like, what do we need? What are wants

[00:00:13] Pete: for needs, right? Our goal at Roofer is to offer the best tools possible for the contractor.

[00:00:27] Mike: And we live episode five here at the Mission Control Podcast, brought to you by Send Digital. I'm your host, Mike Sterns. Today we have Pete with roofer. Pete, thanks for coming the board. ,

[00:00:39] Pete: how's it going, Mike? It's going. Happy to be here, man.

[00:00:42] Mike: Yeah, very good. We're really happy to have you. Very, very excited.

Um, gonna be a lot of good stuff contained within this conversation. So first, for those, those that don't know what is. For,

[00:00:53] Pete: Yeah, so reefer is a sales all-encompassing sales platform or moving in that direction. Uh, you know, started out as a measurement tool. First, the DIY tool, then a paid measurement tool similar to some of the others in the, in the industry.

Uh, we do have both options, uh, now and, uh, over the last year and a half or so, uh, we've progressed it a bit further with the addition of a, uh, proposal feature that allows you now to take those measurements and roll them straight into a proposal. So now you're, you know, taking the manual measurements that you used to do in the manual proposal writing or potentially transferring it into your crm, and you're knocking it out in a matter of minutes.

You know, uh, I think most of our, uh, guys are using, or, you know, our honor subscription plans are getting their measurements back in less than three hours, and it takes probably, you know, two minutes after that to have a, a full blown really nice proposal. You know, uh, cover sheet. Really, really nice looking stuff.

Uh, you know, a step up, an upgrade definitely from like your bare bone stuff that you would see coming out of most CRMs, uh, you know, with the ability to send that out just in a few minutes. I mean, it's really, it's really been fantastic and it's been very well received.

[00:02:05] Mike: That's awesome, man. Uh, I can imagine how that would make things a lot easier for a lot of

[00:02:10] Pete: people.

Uh, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I mean, especially in today's day and age where, you know, time is becoming such a factor in it, right? Not only from a competition standpoint, but from a customer standpoint, right? Customers are definitely looking for this to be a much smoother, quicker process of potentially buying a roof and, and not having to shop around as much.

So, you know, with that, all that going into effect really, and, and then covid hitting and that really like kind of kicking the whole industry in the pants of having to be able to do things more remote. Uh, you know, it's really helped us to, to excel here and, and it'd be the convenience factor of being able to do it this way really helps, uh, you know, to drive the use of the product.

For sure. Yeah, for

[00:02:52] Mike: sure. So have you been with roofer since day one?

[00:02:55] Pete: No. So I originally, uh, my background is fairly colorful. I've, you know, I worked on a lot of, uh, industries prior to coming into, uh, you know, the home improvement. Uh, I was a teacher school teacher. I did a number of different things, um, and then started out actually doing some part-time work for a guy that was doing produ production in interior trim.

So we were doing like trimming houses that were like track houses, right? Like, so it's the same house over and over again. We'd go in, we'd have eight hours in a day to trim an entire house, myself and a couple other guys, and we would just knock that house out and move on to the next one. And I found that I really liked it, you know, it was tough work, but you know, it was enjoyable and it was interesting to see how it all came together.

And we were working side by side with other contractors. The roofers were there. Uh, you know, the driveway guys over were there a lot of times at the same time as us and how everybody was contingent on the guy before them. Uh, you know, so like our, how successful our day went, you know, determined how successful the rest of the guys, uh, that were needed to finish out that house potentially could be.

So it was an interesting. Um, you know, a lot of business to be in for me. And so I eventually started doing it full time and then, uh, ended up becoming a GC and actually working as a GC down in Florida, uh, doing a bunch of stuff, uh, home remodels, um, you know, historical restorations. Were in one of the older cities in the United States down there and doing a lot of historical restoration work, uh, on some homes from like the early 19 hundreds, 18 hundreds, uh, in that area.

So that was kind of cool. That was really one of my favorite things to do. And then moved from Florida up to Jersey and, uh, found a, a home at, uh, a CRM here and, and that was really my transition from. Field side of it to the actual, uh, SAS side of the business and the tech side of the business and moved into the office at that point.

So, uh, kind of nice being able to have that field experience and be able to translate it, you know, for the contractors. Once I got on the tech side, it was a really beneficial way to, to do it. So I worked for a couple of years, uh, with the CRM and then came over to Roofer about, about a year and a half ago.

Uh, she out to run partnerships with them and, and help them get the ball rolling on a number of different other projects as well. So you head of partnerships, correct? Yes. Head of partnerships and uh, also work with the product team a lot on like market strategy and product strategies. So do a lot of that on the side.

So

[00:05:22] Mike: we're gonna do a little bit of jumping around cuz you said a lot there and there's a lot of things that I want to touch on . So you were a school teacher?

[00:05:28] Pete: I was, uh, started out. Yeah, I started out as a high school English teacher, and then I actually, uh, transitioned from there into special education and, and worked specifically with, uh, special ed students and eventually, specifically with autistic students.

Uh, spent a number of years doing that and then, um, went into the, actually into manufacturing after that, uh, moved from Georgia to Florida and hooked up and got into boat manufacturing just kind of on a whim. It was just kind of a funny coincidence and ended up working in that for a number of years and then, uh, went into construction from there.

[00:06:05] Mike: Awesome. So what inspired the transition out of education into manufacturing?

[00:06:11] Pete: Yeah, it was really, uh, Looking back, it, it's interesting, you know, at the time it was money driven. I mean, financially being a teacher in the South where I was, was not a very lucrative thing to be involved in. It was, you know, you weren't making a lot of money and, uh, you know, there was an opportunity presented to me to make considerably more than I was making.

And that's, and, and, and working with, uh, the kids that I was working with, it is very mentally taxing. And, and it, I was kind of getting to the point of almost being a little burned out, I think, and looking for a change anyway. And, uh, obviously something more lucrative came up and that's how I transitioned out of that.

Um, you know, I still, I still think at the heart of it, my calling and, and what I really do enjoy is, uh, you know, is teaching. And I think that's one of the reasons why. Coming to the SaaS side of the business. I, I love being part of like customer success and, uh, you know, the podcast into things and webinars, all that kind of stuff.

Cuz that's still at, at my, you know, at the core of it, I still love to teach, right. It may not be teaching in an actual school, you know, but I'm still having the ability to, to work with these contractors and educate them and, and be able to maybe show them a better way or a more effective way to run the business.

So, uh, loving that piece of it, you know, that's a, is something that I think will always be a big part of me for sure. Yeah, that's,

[00:07:29] Mike: I get it. I, There's something very fulfilling about watching the light bulb go off, like when you explain something to somebody, Right, And, and they get, then they get it. I've been on both sides of it, and I feel the same way, although I'm not a teacher.

I've taught people some things and, uh, yeah. That's, that's awesome. So you then pivoted into the CRM side of things you said,

[00:07:50] Pete: right? Yes. Yep.

[00:07:52] Mike: How important is it for a contractor to have a. .

[00:07:58] Pete: I think that it is extremely important. Like, and, and one of the things we used to say over there at the CRM is there's gonna come a day where you won't be able to be a dog walker without having a crm, right?

Because it's gonna be the only way to really organize your business and be streamlined enough to be timely in what you do. Uh, you know, like you could still keep track of things in a notebook or on, you know, sheets of paper or manila folders, however you wanted to do it. But is it truly going to be the most effective, streamlined, fastest way to do things?

And I think that's what people are ultimately starting to realize is. Having these digital tools is more convenient, but it's also becomes a necessity because it speeds everything up and it keeps you more organized and it makes it easier to access the information from anywhere. You know, it's not a situation now where I'm having to like, call back to the office to get info.

You know, I can access it on the, you know, out on the field, on the road, or wherever I'm at. Uh, and it makes a huge difference, right? It's, uh, it's, so ultimately, I think at the end of the day, a CRM or something like that is going to become the heart of every business. Uh, regardless of whether you're a contractor or dog walker or whatever the case may be, you're gonna need something to keep track of your customer base and really know where everybody's at in the process.

So, you know, I do think there is a time when you first start out as a roofer. It's probably not the very first thing you wanna spend your money on. Like you could actually do some other things that are more effective for the business than dump a ton of change into a crm. Uh, you know, if it's just you or maybe you and one other person, you know, you're not managing a huge work, you know, a huge load of customers, a huge load of projects, you know, you don't necessarily need to have this full blown crm.

But, you know, within the first couple of years, I'd say of business, you're gonna definitely wanna look down that road and, and figure out what CRM would fit you best. Yeah,

[00:09:46] Mike: those are some really good points, especially the accessibility, you know, so if you have a customer, right, that calls into the office and they call in for a sales rep or for a project manager, and then, you know, maybe the admin then lets the project manager know, Hey, this person's gonna be calling you.

Now he has access to their file, and he can have a very structured and intelligent conversation. There's, there's nothing more disheartening than when you talk to a company that's handling something for you and they don't know where something's at. They don't have answers. Right. You feel very unimportant to them.

Yeah. And you begin to lose confidence in what they're doing or what they're going to be doing

[00:10:23] Pete: for you. Right? Yeah, exactly. You know, and I think what we used to see a lot of times on when I was there at the CRM is that you'd get these people who have a process, right? Like maybe I'm a guy who's been doing this 15, 20 years.

I have a process, but it's essentially all in my. Right. And then I'm essentially getting mad at my employees for not following the process, but really it's never been put down on paper, right? So nobody really truly understands the process and what the CRM does. It allows you to take that process and put it in a way that now everyone can visually see the process and understand how it flows, understand the steps involved, understand the pieces that are important, you know, the pieces of information that we gather, the things we want to check off the list, you know, and it's visible for everybody, right?

So now it's not relying on that one person who, you know, maybe the only guy that estimates, or maybe the only guy that knows how to, you know, build a takeoff and, and order material, right? Like, you know, you get away from having that one person that the whole entire company is contingent. And now you allow everybody else to grow as employees, you allow them to figure out their piece and, you know, and it just allows you to be able to relay that to everybody much easier, you know, And it, and it also allows a lot of these guys to realize that maybe at the heart of it, they don't necessarily even have a process that they understand, right?

When it, when you have to translate that process from your head, what you think you've got dialed in, and you gotta put it down for someone else to relate to it, you know, a lot of times you go shit, like, I don't even know if I know this process , or, or maybe you realize there's pieces of the process that are broken, right?

And, and now you can find poise to fix them. So I think it's a great exercise to go through anyway. Uh, you know, because even for the guys that are very experienced and feel as though they're running very successful businesses, you know, maybe in bus, been in business for a long time and you know, you feel very comfortable with the money you're making and the way jobs are getting done.

But when you start to really look at that process and put it on paper, You'll be amazed at how many holes you'll find in it. Or log jams, you know, like things where, you know, jobs are bottlenecking, for instance. You know, uh, like I used to always love to look at these contractors workflows in when I was in the CRM and see their follow up stage.

You know, how many times are we submitting a contract to a customer and then never truly following up with that customer to find out whether it's a yes or a no. And we get this huge bottleneck, and I always loved to change it from a quantity to a dollar figure so that they could see in dollars how much was tied up in proposals that were outstanding that just didn't have an answer.

Right? And so, you know, think little things like that that probably get overlooked when you're just, you know, it's kind of all in your head or you're just relaying it verbally to someone versus, Okay, here's a visual look at what we're doing every day and where all our jobs are sitting and wait, you know, we've got a huge bottleneck at follow up, or we've got a huge bottleneck at invoicing that we're for some reason not getting invoices closed fast enough, right?

Like, so all these. Become very apparent when you can visually see it. Right. And that's what I always loved about the crm.

[00:13:26] Mike: Yeah, that's brilliant because, and you can find, most importantly, you can find this information in seconds, right? It's key strokes, right. You can, you know, search by any multiple, um, filters that you want to find the exact information that you need to hold people accountable to coach them, to really figure out where your numbers are at, to figure out where all your leads came from.

Yeah. , right? Um, and what the, what the profitability were on those different lead channels and see which sales reps are hitting the, the required margins and which ones are not. And you know, if you know that sales rep a missed their margins last month, but it was a one off, he's been with us for two years, you know, things kind of, things can happen.

Right. But if you realize that same rep missed the, you know, the required margin on his jobs three months in a row, on every single job, you've got a much bigger problem. And with, with the absence of data, you would never. Yeah. And to your, and to your point, Pete, if it's all up here, right, we're never gonna get to the point.

We're gonna remember the last job or two maybe, and then there's some recency bias there. But to be able to paint an entire picture and make sound decisions based off of a, a large enough sample size of where it really matters, uh, the CRM makes the, your life exponentially easier. So I couldn't agree with you more

[00:14:44] Pete: Well, and I, and I love the fact that you brought up the accountability factor, cuz that was a huge one for a lot of contractors when they would come to us from, let's, let's say, we used to say, you know, coming from pen and paper to the digital side, you know, that was a big one cuz they were like, there's no real way for me to hold these guys accountable to know, you know, are they quoting the same way I'm quoting?

Like there's no standardizing anything. Everything's very objective when you're doing it the pen and paper way. And there's no way to really truly know, like, are these guys following up? Like they should, you know, are they getting things out in a timely manner? There's, I can't really track that stuff if I can't.

Visually see it myself. So, you know, there's, you struggle a lot to keep people accountable when you're just manually doing everything right. When you get into a situation where all that stuff's visible across the company, it's very easy to hold people accountable because I can, like you said, I can see it almost instantly now.

You know, I know who's performing, who's getting quotes out in a timely manner, who's following up on their customers, how that's working to help them convert. Like all that stuff is so easy to find and so visual now that it's a huge piece for like the owner of a company or a sales manager or a production manager, to be able to see that stuff at a glance now as opposed to, you know, having to dig for information or potentially even take somebody's word for it.

[00:16:01] Mike: Yeah. That it couldn't be more true. And I think it's also important to mention, guys, that the CRM is only gonna be as good as you make it, right. Garbage in, garbage out if you are not holding your team accountable. Okay, So let's back up for a minute. Nobody is going to enjoy implementing a CRM or transitioning to a new crm.

I promise you I've seen it all too many times. They're gonna kick and scream. So I think that there has to be a way that the leader rolls it out to show people the benefit of it, not just do it cuz I said so. And I think that it's really important to hold them accountable and making sure that, you know, in the early adoption of that crm, that you're making sure that people understand why it's being used and make sure that they're doing it.

Cause if you roll out, you could roll out the best CRM with all the bells and whistles and that's fantastic. But at the end of the day, if people aren't using it, not only are you not gonna get the data you need, you're gonna make decisions off of incomplete data, which can be very dangerous.

[00:16:59] Pete: Yeah, right.

Absolutely. And I think, you know, along those lines, one of the things that I would say to people when you're looking for a crm, one of the things that I used to try to stress to these guys is find a CRM that fits the way you are doing business. Right? Like don't necessarily. Try to adjust your business to fit the CRM because you're gonna get way more adoption from your team if you can pretty much maintain the same level of doing things and just show them how the CRM is gonna make it maybe easier, quicker, more streamlined, more organized, Right?

But we're still quoting the same way. We're still approaching customers the same way, as opposed to, Hey guys, this is how we used to do it. Now we're implementing a CRM and we're gonna completely change the way we do business. Right? I can guarantee you that you're gonna hit nothing but friction if you do it that way from your sales team, from your production team, right?

Everybody's gonna be like, Why are we changing something that works to something that in their mind is gonna look like we're adding more steps to the process, Right? And it's gonna be a lot harder to show them value in that than to say like, Hey, we're gonna just make a ton of stuff that we're currently doing.

More digital so that it's quicker, more streamlined, easier for you guys to do. And that's ultimately how you can get a CRM adopted internally, uh, way better, way quicker. And uh, you know, your guys will see the value in it much faster that way.

[00:18:24] Mike: Yeah, that's smart Pete, really good points. In your experience, what is the typical time that it takes to get everyone through the initial learning curve and functioning on the new CRM for those that are considering moving into a new platform or adopting one?

[00:18:40] Pete: Yeah, so I think the biggest, uh, you know, I think, I think if you're look talking about time itself, I think you're looking at, I would give yourself 30 days, right? I give yourself 30 days to get set up, and that's where the point a person playing point, right? And, uh, you know, taking the time to really like, get in there, you know, probably on a daily basis, at least for the first two weeks, uh, you know, get your workflow set up, get anything loaded that you need loaded, like if you're coming from another crm right?

You're gonna probably wanna load your contacts and all that. You know, maybe some job info, stuff like that. So you wanna get that stuff in there next. Um, you know, and then, you know, one or two times of maybe I, I'd, I always told people, you know, if you're in a CRM that has a custom workflow, right? Expect to tweak your workflow probably two or three times before you finally land on a workflow that you like.

Um, you know, cuz what I always found is that everyone overshoots in the beginning and they put too much stuff in the workflow, right? Things that aren't necessarily at the root of it, workflow items, right? Like you, you gotta think of your workflow as being very high level. And I think a lot of people try to get too overly detailed there and it clutters things, right?

And the idea of this is to streamline it and make things run more efficiently for you. And there's always ways in other CRMs to capture that information. But is it ultimately at the end of the day something that I need to. On like a main dashboard screen. And that's what you gotta think about, right? If it's high level enough and, and important enough that I need to be able to see it at a glance when I log into my crm, then yeah, I probably want it in my workflow.

But if it's something that is going to potentially affect one of those factors that is probably not a workflow item, it's just, you know, contingent something that's gonna feed into one of those workflow items. You know, like invoicing, right? Like, do I need to have an invoice sent and an invoice signed and, you know, all these different things, you know, Or a proposals like, do I need to have a, a workflow item for, you know, we got a permit, we, you know, ordered a dumpster.

Like those things are kind of, in my mind, they're contingent on kind of a pre-production stage, but they're not necessarily, you know, worthy of their own workflow item potentially, right? So I, I think these are things that happen when people first get into a CRM as they're like, Man, well let's just put everything in there, right?

And then you end up with these. You see these workflows that are like 50 items long and you're like, Jesus, Like people are gonna get lost in there, right? Like if I turned my team loose in there, it's gonna be confusing as hell, right? To even figure out where I'm at as opposed to something that's maybe clean, you know, 8, 6, 8 items, right?

That kind of are at the heart of what we're looking to accomplish every day and, and the, the main stages that a job passes through and it's a much cleaner view for everybody. So, you know, just some things that keep in mind there. And I think that once you kind of get those dialed in and you get like that basic information in there, then you're ready to start running jobs, you know?

And, and my thing is, what I always loved to do with contractors when we were training them at the CRM level was, Hey, take a job that you guys did a month ago, let's say two weeks ago, right? Put it in there and run it through the process cuz you've already taken it through your process. And see how closely your new process that you've put into your CRM mimics what you guys would normally do.

And then tweak it again, right? And make sure that it fits as close as possible to what you guys did two weeks ago before you had a crm, right? So you want that job to flow as similar as you can to what you were doing prior to using the crm. So that way when I take it to my team, I'm like, Look, everything's gonna stay the same.

All you're gonna do is you're gonna put the information here rather than writing it on a piece of paper and handing it to the, you know, office manager or sticking it in an envelope that you pass to someone else, right? Like this essentially just becomes a digital version of what we're already doing.

And I think it's a much easier sell that way. But getting it set up initially, like I said, uh, I think of 30 days is a solid, uh, timeframe to give yourself, to get that initial setup done. And then, uh, you know, I think depending on how clean you guys are, it's set up and how well the process is fine tuned.

You know, it may take. Two days to get your sales team and your production team up to speed. It may take two weeks. Right. Uh, you know, you gotta take into account how big your team is and how, uh, you know, how much time it's gonna take to corral everybody and, and teach them and uh, you know, but yeah, I mean it's, at that point it's a lot easier to get that portion of it done than it is to, you know, turn everybody loose in a CRM that's not loaded up and ready to go.

So that would be my biggest word of advice

[00:23:09] Mike: for, for some. And that's, and that's really good advice, cuz I've seen it as well. And it's, it's almost a paradox because you're, you're, you're onboarding with this CRM to make things easier, right? To make things run more efficiently, make sure everyone's on the same page, less disconnect, and you're hoping that it's going to, you know, make you more profitable, make people's lives easier, and make your customers happier.

Right. And if you, as Pete mentioned, if you inundate the process early on and then try to roll it out, there's a very good chance. That, that kicking and screaming that we talked about earlier on from like the sales reps and your office manage, uh, office team, it becomes much more abundant cuz people are naturally gonna become overwhelmed and so over optimizing it or overdoing at the onset.

I agree with you wholeheartedly, Pete is, I think it's a misstep and maybe it's something where you go with more of a minimal viable product concept and iron out. Exactly. You know, in essence we have six steps in our customer life cycle and these are the six steps, right? And this is what should be contained within.

And maybe you don't make it entirely detail oriented to where as you get in there and your team starts becoming comfortable using it, you make those small changes and incremental change is an effective way to make an impact. Um, I'm sure there's some studies out there that support it. I haven't read them, but in my experience, you know, when, when you, when you, when you move things along slowly.

People tend to be much more, um, inclined to accept that change than if you make a drastic change. Um, which again, I'm implementing a, a new CRM right now personally for my business and it's awful. We're not gonna sugar coat it here, right? It

[00:24:54] Pete: and, and no, it is, it's an

[00:24:55] Mike: awful time. And no matter how much time and energy you put into it, and, and to your point Pete, you have a point person that's working on these things, you have to understand as well, it's not gonna be perfect when you launch it.

You know? So don't get discouraged if you, if you figure out that you have to tweak some things as time goes on, because there's going to be things that you didn't think of, scenarios are naturally gonna present themselves within your business that you don't have an answer for with where this fits in the CRM and how we document it, how do we deal with these things?

But like that, I think that would be something really nice to be able to address in like a meeting with your team in the early adoption stages of a crm.

[00:25:31] Pete: Right? Yeah. Yeah. You know, and another thing that, another point that I'd like to, to make here is you gotta realize too, like a lot of times, like let's say I'm coming from pen and paper, right?

And I'm coming to a crm, they have a lot of, some of these CRMs have a ton of features, right? Like a ton of bells and whistles. You know, you're talking about like automated communications and, you know, communications with my subcontractors and tons and tons of things that we can do inside this crm. And I think one of the main mistakes that's made a lot of times too, to your point of being overwhelming, is that you try to do too many of those things right away, right?

Like, what I always says is like, let's get the team using it first. Like at the, at the most basic level. Yes. Like let's get them plugging leads into it and maybe creating their estimates in there, or something along those lines, Right? You know, something just very basic functionality. And then once everybody seems comfortable with that, and that's kind of flowing in the crm, right?

Like we can easily find. Customer info, then let's worry about creating automated communications out to those contr, you know, to those customers. Or, you know, going a step further and ordering our materials in there, or creating invoices in there, right? Like, we don't necessarily have to take on the entire workflow on day one, right?

Like we don't have to have email templates loaded in there and all this other, you know, custom contracts created and all these things like on the first week that we have a crm, right? And I think, you know, to your point, like not only does it become overwhelming for the team, but when you try to do all this stuff right off the bat, , you actually render the thing like useless, right?

Like you, you create this CRM scenario where the CRM is gonna fail because the information is not all there. No one knows how to use it correctly. There's way too many things so that everybody gets overwhelmed, so they just don't do anything with it, right? And then what happens, you know, three months down the line, you know, the, the owner of the company gets his bill and he is like, I'm what I'm paying for this.

We're not even using it. Like, what, what the hell is going on here? Right? I'm paying a couple hundred dollars a month and nobody even puts the first lead in this thing. Right? And then it's like, now I want to cancel. Now I gotta move all my information again to another crm. Cuz that one's completely ineffective.

And the thing is that none of these CRMs are completely ineffective. It's all in how they're set up and how they're, you know, implemented. Right? And that's where the challenge comes. And if you can do it correctly from the. And not bite off more than you, than you can chew, you know, and, and not just flood it with people or flood it with information that, like you said, is garbage potentially.

Right? Like, uh, that's the other thing you, you know, you just wanna put like everything that's ever happened with the company and the history of it since day one into this crm. Like, how important really is all that information, right? Do we need to know a customer that we put a roof on his house 15 years ago?

Like, is that really something that has to be in our CRM right now? Or is it something that potentially we could reference someplace else, you know, and be comfortable doing that. So, you know, that that type of stuff is things you need to think about because it's all information that's gonna just clutter that CRM right from the beginning and make it very hard to use and implement and potentially be the downfall of it, right?

So, uh, you know, I, I like to take kind of that step approach of like, Hey, let's master one or two things out of our workflow in this crm, and then let's add another one. Like, let's wait. and add production, right? Like, we can do production without it. We have been doing it without it, so let's get our sales guys acclimated in there.

And then once they're cool with it and they're flowing and they're like, Man, this thing is jamming, it's awesome. Then we bring the production guys in and we let the production guys learn their piece, and then we slowly implement it across the team, right? Then the office manager comes in and starts handling their part so they feel comfortable with, you know, using it to get referrals or managing lead sources or whatever the case they're gonna be, you know, what they're gonna do with it.

So, you know, I think that that's a, a huge thing that I saw is like if the teams that were like, Okay, let's just do the basics and, and add all the bells and whistles later, versus the team that was like, Let's just do it right, Like, I'm all in, let's just get it all going. And those are the guys that tended to be a little bit more ineffective because there's just too much, right?

Yeah. It's too much to figure out. It makes the whole setup process and and training process way more complicated than it needs to be. And, uh, it more or less like, sets you up for failure, I think, you know. Yeah. That's,

[00:29:57] Mike: uh, again, you've seen it. Uh, I've seen it. It's, it's, it's a very, it's a tough situation to stand by and watch, right?

Yeah. Uh, you know, cause these things, they take time, they take money, uh, and it requires a lot of, a lot of effort from a lot of people in order to get that moving in the right direction. But I'll tell you what, once you get there, when you get, you know, your sales reps documenting things, you get your office staff, you get your fulfillment team or your crews, um, and you've got great technologies that, you know, sync with these CRMs and can streamline and, and help you make you guys more effective and productive.

It's a, it's a beautiful thing to see. Uh, and it's incredibly helpful when it comes to everybody within your company. So get a crm, listen to everything that Pete said, cuz he is spot on on everything. It's gonna be fantastic. Don't you worry. So, .

[00:30:51] Pete: Yeah. I mean, you know, the, one of the things to note is like, you know, I think once you get, like you, to your point, once you get that CRM set up and everybody's using it and using it correctly, they're never going back.

Right? Like, they'll be like, I can't believe we didn't do this. Like, we used to hear it all the time. I can't believe I didn't do this five years ago. Like, what a difference it would've made in my business. I could have scaled so much faster. Yeah. Or I could have hired so many more people, or closed so many more jobs.

Right. You know, because it ultimately, at the end of the day, it will make you better. Like, it is gonna make you better, uh, you know, in whatever piece you want to do. You know, whether it, it's you want to add more time to your day, whether you want to add more times so you could sell more jobs. Whether you just wanna have a cleaner transition from sales to production.

Sure. It's gonna help with all that stuff, you know? And at the end of the day, you know, you're never gonna want to go back. Right. And either is your team, once they really, uh, adopted and realize the value in it. So, you know, that's why setting it up correctly. And getting them to buy into it as early as possible is so important because ultimately, once they see it and they realize how much it's gonna impact their day, they're never gonna want to go back to the old way of doing it.

Yep.

[00:32:00] Mike: There's no doubt about it. So we're gonna do one, one more question on CRMs. So what are your favorite integrations, um, that have helped roofers? When it comes to

[00:32:09] Pete: CRMs? Yeah, it's a great question. I mean, it really depend, You know, I think that from a, from a roofing standpoint, right? If I was a brand new roofer, I would lean heavy on my crm, right?

Like if I was maybe a small company, you know, like I'm not looking to be super fancy and employee, you know, seven different, uh, you know, platforms and pay a ton of money for tech at this point. So I would lean heavy on the tools that are in my crm, right? Like there's an estimating feature in most of 'em.

Is it the greatest estimating feature out there on the market? Not necessarily. But does it do the job? A hundred percent, right? Like I can. Just as fine out of theirs, I can quote out of something else. Ultimately, there may come a day where I want something that looks better, feels better, you know, is more efficient.

But to start out, there's nothing wrong with quoting outta that crm, right? There's nothing wrong with invoicing outta that crm. Like, is it great to have QuickBooks and, you know, have a, a fancy system like Sage or something like that? Yeah. Ultimately you may want that, but in the beginning, lean heavy on that CRM and don't necessarily worry about, you know, plugging in tons of integrations.

Um, but when the time comes, I think you'll, you'll see it in your workflow and you'll kind of know like, okay, like here's, you know, and that's why I think the CRM is so important too, because you'll see those areas of opportunity very, very easily once you get a CRM in place, right? And you're looking at that workflow every day and all of a sudden you.

Nobody's following up the way they should. What if we were able to automate that follow up so it was way cleaner and I didn't have to rely on these bone heads. I have doing sales to follow up, cuz none of them are doing it right. So it's like, you know, like rather than trusting my guys, maybe I can just make their day easier and make my life easier by automating follow up.

Okay, great. Then let's go find a platform that does that. Right? And we plug that in and now all of a sudden you're using that CRM in a whole different way. Cuz it's becoming this hub where I can fill the holes that are in my crm, right? Like I can fill the holes that my team is still experiencing. Even though we came to a crm, you know, ultimately our workflow is still the same as it was before.

We're just digitized it, right? So the holes are still there, they're just way more obvious now cuz it's much more visible to everybody. So then you take these other platforms that specialize in these things and you plug them. To kind of plug those holes, right? Mm-hmm. , automated communication, I think is a great one, especially in today's day and age.

You know, we talk often about speed to lead, right? Like when there's so much competition and so many customers are coming now from like, uh, you know, social sources and, and things like that, they're not really keen on getting, you know, like a, a big dog and pony show in their house anymore, right? Like they want to just be communicated with, you know, via text or via, uh, email or whatever the case may be.

So having the ability to automate that and get on them right away and be super responsive and, you know, constantly in communication with that customer is gonna be huge to the success of landing jobs, right? So I love the automated communication platforms. There's a couple of really good ones in the industry, and I think that any of those are a great addition to a crm.

Uh, you know, like I said, once you get to a certain point, I think a quoting tool can definitely help, right? I think that, you know, it's a way to stand out from the competition. You know, if you're in a market where it's, you've got a lot of guys that have adopted CRMs, a lot of them are probably quoting out of that crm, right?

So what happens is you get this like cookie cutter idea of like, Hey, I've got, you know, I'm a homeowner in Texas and I just had a hail, I'm probably getting 10 or 12 people that want to quote my job. And 10 of those, you know, 12 estimates that I got look identical because they came out of the crm. Or very similar because they came out of similar CRMs, right?

It's like, how do I stand out from the crowd? I go with something different, right? I go to another cr, you know, another estimating tool that can easily communicate with my crm, but maybe gives me some more bells and whistles and gives me the ability to, uh, you know, to stand out from the crowd a little bit.

And those are great for guys that are in like really competitive markets, Texas, Florida, right? Like where you really are up against the wall kind of to stand out from the crowd. And you want to get to guys, you wanna get to people fast, but you also want to st you know, be the one that they're gauging everybody else's proposal off of.

It's a great way to do it is to, is to get one of those specialized estimating platforms and plug it in. Right, Right. Um, and then, you know, of course I think the measurement tools are, are one that have grown over time. You know, I, I think there was a time where that was considered a luxury and I don't think it is anymore.

I think just for the sheer speed of getting to customers and the remote capabilities of it and, you know, just what it does for a time saving, Like right before we got on this podcast, I was talking to a guy who does metal roofs who said like, Man, you know, I need something so badly for metal roofing because I'm up on a roof for two and a half hours in the blazing sun, sweating my ass off, measuring literally every piece of metal roof that I'm gonna put on so that I can literally hand draw a diagram and tell my guys, this is how you install it.

He's like, and it's so time consuming and it's just, he said it, it over the course of the week, you know, I'm wasting so much time and effort and I'm blazing in the sun, I'm up on the roof. He's like, I got a company to run. Like I, I'm the only one that can accurately quote a metal roof and it's killing me because there's so many other things I could be doing as the owner of the company that I'm stuck doing this.

Right? And it's like, so those, those types of things are what those, you know, remote measurement tools have really helped to solve. Uh, you know, so I think that they've definitely become more cost effective, right? There's a number of them now that are way more cost effective than they used to be. So it allows you now to get in earlier, you don't have to be someone who's churning and burning a ton of jobs to be able to use one.

Uh, you know, where if I'm a smaller guy, I'm having to still climb the ladder and ne maybe not even compete with the bigger guy because of the amount of time it takes me to get a quote out the door. Now I can compete and get a quote out the door in the same time, or even less than maybe the bigger company does.

So, you know, I think those are some, some great. Um, you know, anything that can help you funnel leads in, I think are gonna help. You know, one thing that a lot of people don't realize is your CRM starts when you put a lead into it, right? So where do the leads come from? And I think that's a challenge that roofers always struggle with.

So anything that you can do to funnel those leads into that crm, or it's always gonna help you because otherwise you're just, you know, counting on whatever, you know, word of mouth or whatever the case may be to get leads in the door. Because that's, that's one of the biggest things, you know, none of your CRMs really have any kind of marketing or front end funnel capabilities.

So it really starts at the entry of that lead into that system. So where is that coming from and, and how is it funneling into my crm? Right? So, uh, like you said, being able to track lead sources in that CRM is huge, You know, so that I can see where my money is best spent and stuff like that. But you still gotta have those sources of, of leads coming in and how you're generating them.

You know, those are some things that I think have over time become crucial tools. But, you know, if you're new to CRMs, like if I'm a, a brand new roofer or a very small company and I'm like, Hey, I'm gonna just get on a CRM because I know it's gonna be a way to streamline my business, lean heavy on the CRM in the beginning, right?

Like, just use the CRM and then you'll see where you need to employ the other, you know, pieces of, of, uh, you know, of tech and, and what tech find the one that just works best to plug that hole. Right? So, and I think that's, that's the easiest way to do it. I mean, there's some fantastic softwares out there right now, uh, that are very specialized in a lot of things and, uh, you know, really have their niches covered and just find the one that works best for you.

[00:39:46] Mike: Yeah, that's, and that's very insightful because I think that, again, you're always kind of going, fighting against yourself to want to, like, if you're going to improve your crm, you're always trying to improve, improve, improve, improve, and you kind of lose sight of like, what do we need? What are wants, WANs versus needs.

Yeah. And you know, I think I, I rein myself in on this stuff all the time, not with just the crm, right? Like needs and wants. Right. I don't really need that. I just want it, eh, Right. Yeah. And sometimes you'll, and sometimes you'll acquiesce to, to the wants and sometimes, like, you should really stick to the needs.

I'm not here to tell you how to run your life, but I think that is, that's a really good point. When, when you're moving into or evolving within your crm, you know, lean on it heavy, get as much out of it as you can, that kind of piggybacks off of finding one that fits the needs of your business, um, specifically in what your process is and not reinventing your process to fit the crm.

So yeah, dude, really good stuff. So you started to speak in my love language there for a minute when you said speed to lead,

right?

[00:40:48] Pete: Like, you know,

[00:40:50] Mike: so, and I, it's such a good point because speed to lead is a real thing, especially, you know, if you're doing things like Facebook advertising or even Google advertising, any type of advertising, the longer.

It takes for an individual to get somebody live the more time they have to search elsewhere for it. Right. And when you're spending money, you don't want to give people the opportunity to choose somebody else. And I think, you know what, what you said as far as like the automated communication, like that's absolutely huge.

And like another spoke of value that it has is, is kind of nurturing that relationship. You know, if, if you think of like these big companies think of Amazon, right? Which I'm kind of pissed because I had a whiteboard that was supposed to be delivered yesterday, then this morning, then at noon. And here we are at 3:17 PM Eastern Standard.

It's still not here. Yeah. . Yeah. It's crazy. As you get old what you start to get excited about, right? Right. goddamn whiteboard, I'm super am for it and it's still not here and I'm kind of pissed. But you know, they typically, there's exceptions to every rule. They'll typically give you step-by-step guidance and there's so many touches within that, that.

Life cycle of you deciding add to card or buy now to the time that it gets delivered at your door. Stop. Like, Hey, guess what, Mike? Your whiteboard's 10 stops away. Let's go. Right. , you know, so, so you're building that rapport with the customer and, and giving them an experience that, I don't wanna say it can't be matched, but why would they ever want to go astray from, from that company that provided them that experience?

[00:42:24] Pete: Right. Yeah, absolutely. And I think, you know, that's a great point is, you know, one of the things that we would find most of the time, you know, even when we were on the CRM side of it and you we're working with contractors, the contractors were the same way. Like, one of the biggest things that would draw them to a product like ours was that, you know, not to go back to the crm, but you know, it was the communication factor.

Like, can I pick up the phone and call somebody and get some help? And so many times it was the same way with the contractor to the customer relationship is like you said, Can I call the office if I can't get in touch with my sales rep and the office can look it up and say, Yeah, I can gimme five minutes and I can figure out exactly what's going on with your job.

Let me just look you up, you know, and I can see exactly where you're at in the workflow. I can see exactly what's going on. Oh, we're waiting on a permit. Oh, we're waiting on a material drop. Whatever the case may be. Oh, your material's scheduled to drop on Thursday. We're gonna be there Friday to do the job.

Oh, wow. That's great. You know, like, thanks. You know, like, and I think that, you know, the communication factor is so crucial, and especially in today's day and age, because people are busy and they're not just like hanging out, waiting for you to show up. So, you know, like I remember seeing this thing that said, you know, now we're getting into more of millennial buyers.

And the millennial buyers, it said 44% of them want a contactless sales process, right? Like, they don't even want to talk to a person face to face. So they just want updates via text, you know, via email, whatever the case may be. Hey, here's where we stand, you know, Hey, we're a week out from doing your job.

We're two weeks out from doing your job. Okay, cool. As long as I know what's going. Then I'm not calling you all pissed off. Right. And it's the, it's when there's no communication that I'm just like, like you said, I'm going elsewhere. Or you know, hey, I hit these guys up two days ago and I still haven't even heard from anybody at that company as opposed to an automated message going out.

As soon as I click the submit button, I got an email that says like, Hey, thanks for reaching out. We're gonna be in touch shortly to schedule an appointment. Whoa, shit, these guys are on, they're on top of their stuff. Right? Like, man, this is awesome. Right? So it sets that tone like from the very beginning that you're like, Wow, one, these guys obviously have their shit together, right?

They're organized, right? They're already on top of it, you know, and then you know how quickly that rep reaches out and all that kind of stuff. It just, like you said, it fosters that relationship of like, man, these guys before you've even gotten to the job, you've won future business with them. Because they're like, these guys are all over it.

I love 'em. You know what I mean? As opposed to, you know, like you said, I'm sending, you know, potentially hitting a guy up about coming out. Takes him a week to respond, takes him another week to come out and actually do the estimate, and then, you know, or he does an inspection and then, yeah, then I don't hear from him.

Like, I always use this story like my neighbor was getting, uh, Central Airport in his house, and, uh, he had a guy come quote him a whole system, like walk through the house, you know, with the pen and pad and the whole, you know, superficial looking like, Oh, you're gonna need this, you're gonna need this, right?

So like four days later I said to him, What did that guy quote you? Oh, I still don't have a quote from him. I said, Don't do business with him. And he's like, Well, what do you mean? I said, In today's day and age, if it still takes him a week to get you a quote, then how long is it gonna take him to actually come and do your job?

Right? He may be the best guy out there, but he's not organized because he has all the tools available to him right now to be able to turn that quote around in his truck before he leaves your driveway. And he's choosing not to use them, which means that that's probably not the only part of his business that's in.

Right, And the odds are that he's gonna quote you, you're gonna say yes, and then it's gonna be a month before he shows up to actually put HVAC into your house and it's gonna be the winter time and you needed air conditioning the whole time and you got totally screwed because he's doesn't have the shit together.

Right? As opposed to the guy who literally says, Yeah, give me a second. Goes outside to his truck, uses his crm, or whatever other tech he has, pops out an estimate and says, Hey look, you know, we may find some unforeseen stuff, but here's a number, right? Like, this is what's gonna cost you, you know, for me to do it.

Oh, and by the way, if you signed today, I can be here a week from now and we can knock this thing out, right? Like I can fit you into the. That's a whole different experience. Right. It's like night and day. Yeah. Right. And I think that that's where it, we're moving in that direction. I think not everybody's moving in that direction, and that's what's gonna determine who's successful in these home improvement businesses and who's not.

Right? Because it's the, those are the type of way that, that's the type of industry we live in now. Like we live in an Amazon world where I can see what's, you know, that my package is 10 packages away, or I can find out exactly where it's scanned this morning, you know? Or I can go on and order anything that I could possibly ever want in my life just by searching it on Amazon.

Right. And I think that, you know, that's the expectation now, right? Is that I, you know, oh crap, I need a roof. Let me look it up. Find a roofer near me, and I should be able to get a roof by the end of the week, right? Like I can get something on Amazon in a day. You know, I order it and it's already out shipped before the day's over.

Right. So, and I think that's the idea of we're gonna have to move more and more towards, uh, you know, in home improvement. It's, you're not gonna be able to have these like drastically long lead times and I'm not gonna be able to take my sweet time going back to the office and typing you up a Microsoft Word document of, you know, what I'm gonna do, and, you know what I mean?

Like, those days are gone. You know, And I think that if you're, if you're dealing as a customer, you know, if you're a customer listening to this and you're dealing with a contractor and that's the way he's operating, he's choosing not to do it the more efficient way. Right? Because all the tools are available for them and they're not cost prohibitive anymore.

Like there's ways, I mean, you could literally use products for free to do these things right at this point in the industry. So, you know, he's making a conscious effort not to be more streamlined and be more efficient. And it's gonna make him not competitive eventually.

[00:48:15] Mike: Yeah. Oh yeah. And it's like . I don't know if you've, you know, right now, I, I would assume they're in the minority between the age of 20 and 28, 29, they're buying houses.

Right. Um, probably as you move up that, that spectrum, it becomes more likely they're gonna purchase a home. But like, like you said, the immediate gratification thing, and as that correlates to the younger demographic where it's like, guess what? You may not give a shit about them now, but five years from now they might be, you know, the, the, uh, the mainstay of your target market or very good percentage of it.

Absolutely. Just like, you know, people would shit on millennials and like, Dude, I get a millennials suck, I'm millennial, whatever, . Um, but

[00:48:57] Pete: guess who raised us? . Yeah. .

[00:49:01] Mike: So that's where we're at, is, you know, you have the millennials that are start, you know, they're a big part of your target audience. You have to understand that, you know, the generation behind us, they're not far behind.

And you have to, you have to accommodate them. For sure if you want to service them and if you want to thrive in your market, it's, they're gonna be a big part of it. Right. So you had mentioned absolutely something about the, the luxury, right? That it used to be to be able to use measurement softwares, right?

Yeah. That's, uh, I like how you position that because that's, I mean, it what, you know, you, if you think about some of the measurements, like how, how often can a small business afford to pay 30, 40 or 50 bucks for one quote that they don't even know that they got? I mean, that's, that is taxing to, to a small business.

And I love the humility because you didn't mention names, but , I'll say it, right, So roofer, you guys disrupted the industry. You know, if I'm, if I'm trying to look at this objectively, and I said this years ago, like when I first heard of it, as far as how you guys kind of cornered the market. Uh, from the accessibility side of things, right?

You made it so much more affordable, which is a big part of any equation when you're running a business. Like, yes, I want this, but it doesn't make sense financially like you guys made it so much more affordable to be able to have this luxury, which most people, you know, didn't have at the time due to cost.

So like, have you, what you guys have obviously been very successful as far as bringing on a ton of different clients, right? So sure. Let's transition that into the proposal side of things that you guys have, have recently rolled out that I know so many people love. I wanna

[00:50:49] Pete: hear all about it. Yeah, absolutely.

You know, I think you're right. I think it did, You know, at the time I was still on the CRM side, I was a with roofer, so it was interesting to watch how roofer essentially did disrupt the market. You know, I think it was a market that had a couple of big players that kind of had set the market. You know, they, it was a.

Something, a tool that not everybody was using, but for the guys that were using it, there was, you know, they were the only option. Right? And the roofer comes in, obviously at a, a better price point with a equivalent product. And you know, it did, it opened the door for a lot of people to one, potentially use it in a different way.

You know, like, like you said, I think a lot of guys were not using the competition because, or they were only pulling the competition's reports when they got to a certain point in their workflow. Like we would often see it like, well, I don't pull that until the customer signs a contract because it's too expensive for me to pull that on every job and potentially lose it, Right?

If I'm only closing a small percentage of those jobs, that's a lot of money over the course of a year going out the door for a small contractor, you know, And I think roofer comes in, they have these $10 measurements, and now it's like, wait a second, at 10 blocks, it's worth it to pull in on every single job because if I don't land that job, I'm literally out 10 bucks, right?

Like, so it's not the worst case scenario, right? So, and, and for that 10 bucks I'm getting a full report. I'm not getting like, you know, something that's just giving me a square count or, or something like that. So, you know, I don't have to later upgrade it. So there definitely was a lot of advantages there that I think played into roofer becoming a household name very quickly.

Uh, you know, and it's kind of one of those things where like, our goal at Roofer is to offer the best tools possible for the contractor, ultimately, because we want the contractor to be able to offer the customer the best customer experience, right? Uh, you know, Roofer was founded on working with customers and intent, essentially trying to attach them to a contractor, right?

You kind of made them up, right? And we, we were kind of like acting as a middleman. And what we realized right away was the experience for the customer was not, So then we started to build tools that allowed the contractor to offer a better experience. You know, let everybody have access to these, you know, aerial measurements that are gonna streamline their process and give them a cool PDF to be able to show the customer, Hey, here's your house.

I pulled these measurements without even coming. Right? So it allows me to quote potentially ahead of even getting to you. Right? So, uh, the next evolution for us obviously was the proposal tool and, uh, you know, giving the contractor a quick and easy way to create a proposal, uh, based off of those measurements that they pulled and being able to make it look really nice.

Right? Because I think you had some functionality built with a lot of the CRMs where they had integrations with some of these measurement tools, but it's still at the root of, it was a very like itemized bare bones kind of like line item estimate that was just like, Hey, take this, apply to this. It, it's kicking you out what looks like a glorified Excel spreadsheet and you know, you.

Get a customer to sign the bottom of it. And we didn't necessarily want to go that way. We wanted it to be more like presentation style, cleaner, very visual, visually appealing for the, the customer. Uh, you know, give them the ability to add their own story into there. Whether that be, you know, in about a section via pdf, photos, whatever the case may be, right?

To really like, make it more glamorous and, and stand out from the crowd, but also contain the information and be able to effectively use those measurements that we had become a household name for, for having. So, you know, that's where the, the proposal feature kind of came out of. And uh, it's just another step in that direction of trying to, you know, streamline the process for the contractor to ultimately make a better customer experience, uh, at the end of it.

Right. And, and that's how for one, you know, that's how you win customers long term. Like we, you know, in a couple of other podcasts I've talked about becoming that guy, right? Like I have that guy, right? I have that mechanic that I go to every time cuz I trust. You know, I have the place I go to eat, you know, two times a week because I can trust that their food's gonna, can be consistent and be the same every time.

Right? You know where in roofing I think we, we think too much around like, I just need to land this job. If I land this job, then I move on to the next one. Rather than I wanna build a relationship with this customer that's gonna be a long term relationship to where they're not only gonna recommend me to their friends, but they're gonna call me back when they have an issue with their own home or they want something else done.

Right? Like they, they need me to, uh, you know, come do the gutters, come do the siding, you know, whatever else I offer. Right? Uh, you know, and I think that, you know, those are all things that are huge and I think all of these tools work towards that customer experience, right? Being able to build a proposal that has options on it, right, is something simple, but it allows me to quote, not only your roof, but like, Oh, hey, by the way, since I'm here quoting your roof, I also quoted your siding and your gutters.

Even though you may want, wanna do those right now, now you have prices for them. So you can call me later and we can come out and knock those out, right? Mm-hmm. , it's a easy way to upsell. It's a easy way for you to stay front of mind for that customer. Like there's so many things you can do with it and, uh, you know, so I, I think that it was just like the next logical evolution, uh, was to take those measurements and be able to apply 'em to the estimate and, and kind of work downstream from there.

[00:56:11] Mike: How long does it take to create a proposal?

[00:56:15] Pete: So once you get the system set up, which literally you could set it up, I mean, I've set it up in 45 minutes, uh, and that's building, you know, uploading my material in there. I've helped contractors build their materialist inside of roofer, Uh, we call it the catalog.

And then, um, you know, create templates based off of like the most common. Offered roof systems for their, their business. You know, whether that be multiple contractors, maybe that be, uh, multiple manufacturers roof systems or maybe that be, is different roof systems from a single manufacturer. However you wanna do it, you can set up as many templates as you want in there.

Uh, so to do the catalog, build a templates, you're probably looking at an hour tops. And then once that's in there, you are able to apply that measurement to that proposal. It literally could take probably less than five minutes to go from a actual measurement to a, a proposal that you could send out the door and get signed by a contra, you know, by a customer.

And that's, you know, that's with potentially custom cover images of the customer's house that's adding photos. If you know, now we have a company CAM integration. So if you guys are company CAM users and you're taking photos out there and company cam, those are available now to quickly pull and put into your proposal inside of roofer so you can have like your inspection photos.

You know, photos of damage or whatever the case may be that you want to add there to add credibility to that proposal. Um, you know, a lot of what I really like is we have the ability to add PDFs. So a lot of these companies have built like an about us PDF one pager. They drop that in there so that when I open that proposal, I have my really nice cover image that shows my house.

And then the very next page explained to me why I should pick these guys, right? Like, what do I need to know about this company? What's important, what's, what's the reason I choose them over the competition? Then it goes into the nuts and bolts of why, you know, what they're gonna actually do on my house and then my terms and all that stuff.

So it's really nice. I love the way that you can easily lay it out. It's so easy to just kind of like drag and drop stuff into that proposal. And, uh, like I said, you know, once those templates are really dialed in, you're talking a matter of minutes to create a proposal. Uh, you know, one of the stories I like to relay is we have a, a contractor that uses the product and he goes out and does inspections.

So one of his things is, Hey, we'll do a free roof inspection. . So that's kind of like his tag, and that's how he gets his hook, right? That's how he gets in the door. So he goes and he does his inspection and while he's there doing the inspection, he pulls your address up in roofer and he pulls his, you know, he pulls up your house and he quickly sketches out your roof.

So roofer gives you the ability to either have us measure it or to do what we call a DIY and measure it yourself. So he uses the DIY tool, he uses both, but he relies heavily on the DIY tool cuz he does it right there on the spot. So while he is doing the inspection, he quickly does a diy, he figures out the measurements of the roof and then he goes back to the truck and he rolls all that information that he just got from his, you know, 20 minute inspection and his diy, he pushes them right into a proposal and he walks right back up to the front door and says like, Hey, I know you only called me out here to do a quick free inspection, but you know, while I was here, I went ahead, I pulled a measurement on your.

I went ahead and created a proposal. Here it is. Let's walk through it really quick. Oh, you like it? Click here, sign now. Done. Right. And it's what was a free inspection that got him in the door, is now a signed proposal and he moves on from there and, and you know, it goes straight to production. So, you know, it's genius use of it.

Uh, you know, and the product just has so much versatility in that way. Like, we have another contractor that uses it at home shows. Right. You know, he puts up a big screen TV behind him and he says, Hey, give me your address. They give him their address, he plugs it in, he pulls it up on the screen, he draws their house really quick, hits a button, rolls it into a template that he has.

And oh look, this is how much it would cost for me to come roof your house. Really? Okay, cool. Like, we need a new roof. That's awesome. Okay, cool. Sign right here. Right. And he's closing tons of jobs at the home show without ever setting foot on their property. Like, it's amazing. Right. So the use cases are there to do so many versatile things with it.

And, uh, you know, it's just, I love to hear stories of like how guys are using it. And how effectively it's working for them. Cuz it's, you find out so many different ways, like things that we don't even necessarily think of that you, you know, you just say like, that's genius, Right? Like the home show thing.

That's genius. I would've never thought of the use case like that. Uh, but it's just an absolutely genius way to use the product. Yeah,

[01:00:40] Mike: I, I like that the home show. And just so you know, for y'all that are listening, you know, Pete's telling you that if you do this, you're gonna close every single person that comes to your booth.

So make sure

[01:00:50] Pete: you're doing it with roof, Get it, Hey, maybe if the proposal's pretty enough, you never know. Right. .

[01:00:56] Mike: Well, and that's, it's a really, I think sometimes people overlook like presentation value, Right. And not just in this instance, like in general, like the, how things are framed in the presentation of it really do matter as far as, especially when it comes to like people making decisions, uh, and such decisions that are 10, 15, 20, 20 $5,000 decisions.

Uh, I think it's a right, I think it's a really prudent thing to do to make sure that you've got some sort of clean proposals getting out in front of your customers quickly. Because the other side of that is perception's reality. So when Pete's neighbor had to wait four or five days for all, Pete knows that guy could've came back a week later and done a really good job, but the odds are he's not going to right.

Like you, you gotta, like, there's a really strong likelihood that that's not the case and we'll never know cuz that guy never had the opportunity to earn the business. Because people will take indicators that you give them and make decisions based off of those. Right. So,

[01:02:06] Pete: um, yeah, the, well, and it goes, like you said, it goes beyond the proposal to like, you're a website guy, right?

Like you're an SEO guy. Like I think that, you know, I love. When you go to people's websites, you know, like, and you like, it's like your face, right? Like, if I go to your website and it looks like crap, like, you know, like your uncle built it in his basement with, you know, on some free crap that he had. Like, you know what I mean?

Like, I'm gonna be like, What the hell is this? This is garbage. Like, this is not a professional company. Like this is some Mickey Mouse shit, right? Like, as opposed to going to a website and you're like, Wow, this is a clean ass website. Like, these guys are professional looking, right? Like the about us section is good.

Like, I feel like I know these guys already. Like, this is cool, right? And I, I think that, you know, so much of that stuff goes a long way and it, it translates to your proposal, right? Like if your proposal is really professional looking and really clean and very visual, you know, I'm gonna like it before I even see the price as opposed to, you know, Hey, here's a, you know, my napkin from Chick-fil-A, I flipped it over and wrote a number on the back.

Are you good with this? Right? Like, it's like, you know what I mean? Like, that's obviously not gonna sell me quite as hard as like a really nice like PDF style, you know, clean looking proposal with a lot of pictures and stuff. Right? So, you know, I think it, it goes a long way, you know, talking about, like you said, the perception of it when I see it, right?

Like if, if it's visually pleasing right off the bat, like, you've already got me hooked to where I'm probably gonna read into this way more than, you know, you just kind of giving me some stuff you, you know, printed off a word or wrote on the back of a napkin, right? Mm-hmm. . So it's, uh, you know, it makes, you, definitely makes you stand out from the crowd for sure.

[01:03:47] Mike: Yeah, No doubt. What kind of changes do you see forthcoming in the next year, three years, five years, that are gonna make an impact in the roofing

[01:03:54] Pete: community? Man, that's an awesome question. I think the, I think the thing that I've. You know, now I've only been on the SaaS side of the business on the tech side of the business for now close to five years.

Right? Probably. But, um, you know, it's amazing to me in those five years how much, how far the industry has come, right? From not only the tools that we have, but the quality of those tools. How much some of those existing tools that were, you know, maybe the first ones in the door, how much they've improved, or how much their competition has potentially improved, you know, and, and how much more we have to offer the contractor.

Um, you know, it, it's amazing to me. I think the AI piece now that's coming into the market, uh, on, on some of these softwares will definitely play a huge role. Um, you know, the, I don't know if you've seen the, the tool roof hawk, like, not to give them a shameless plug, but they're, they're one of the first like really like AI tools that I've seen come out that it's just.

like, wow, this is incredible. Like, you know, this is like the future of where our industry is going and how it's gonna streamline the way people do things that traditionally took a lot of time and, you know, potentially had that human error factor. Mm-hmm. , like, could we start to minimize that and how much AI will come in, you know, potentially to creating proposals and, uh, ordering material and, you know, material dropping and, and those type of things.

Like how much of it will be powered by ai, uh, as we go. Um, my favorite piece, I think the one thing that I'm really looking forward to seeing evolve in the roofing industry over the next couple of years is the kind of the merger I think of solar and roofing, right? I think the solar shingle is really gonna turn a corner to where it's going to take two very separate industries that, you know, have been kind of at odds with each other, right?

Like almost contingent on each other, but kind of at odds. Like, you know, like, Oh, you know, I've got. I'm a solar guy, and I could land so many more jobs if I just had dependable roofers to do all this roofing work prior to me, you know, punching it full of holes and putting a solar panel on. Right? So it's like , you know?

So you've got this, these two industries that are very, very separated from each other and have their own set of tools that have developed over time. Right. And now you're starting to see this crossover where the solar shingle and the idea that, hey, potentially the same company that installed your roof could be the company coming back five years later to install your solar roof.

Right. And it's like that's gonna change everything, right? Because now there won't be a need for these big solar companies because your local roofer will be able to do the same thing. Yeah. Right. But it'll also cause a huge evolution into tools, right? Like my tools that are measurement tools will have to be able to help potentially locate solar panels, right?

Or my proposal tools will have to be able to accommodate. not just the roof, but the solar install, right? And so there's a lot of things that will have to morph over time in the industry to incorporate it, but I think it's, it will be for the best, you know, ultimately, because I think both industries have great tools, uh, you know, that are very specific to their industry.

And I think the kind of the merger of those tools and the merger of those two industries will be very interesting to watch. You know, and I think you see it already with some of these huge companies like Ga f I think of, you know, having its own central, like its own separate company, GAF energy that is focused on that next step, right?

And if a company that big is saying like, Hey, we see this as the future of roofing, so we're gonna build a whole organization around it and start to roll this out says a lot, uh, you know, about where they think the market is going. And it really, I think, drives home the fact that ultimately this is gonna be one giant industry.

Like we're not gonna be two very distinct separate industries with our own set of tools. Yeah, it's a really good

[01:07:49] Mike: point. And I love the, the friction that you kind of bring up between, you know, like solar and just traditional roofs, right? And the guys that are involved within it and it. It's almost like that's, that it's, it's almost like the, the friction or contention that's between like a sales and marketing department, right?

Like if you gave us better leads, we close more, right? Well, if you close more jobs like our marketing, we'd be doing much better. And there's always kinda like that finger pointing and, and, uh, a little bit of contention, .

[01:08:17] Pete: Yeah. Well, and I think, you know, ultimately over time what's happened is you've developed, you know, your, at the root of it, your roofers are your installers, right?

Like, that's ultimately their bread and butter. Their production guys, they do sales, but they don't necessarily love it, right? Like, at the heart of it, they probably started, you know, nailing shingles on a roof and they've evolved over time to just have like a great reputation, which essentially has allowed them to build a company.

Yep. You know, where your solar guys are, not installers. Your solar guys are. S giant sales engines. Right? And I think that's where a lot of the friction comes from, is that you have the production guys and you have your sales mega machines over here just, you know, mass selling solar. And I think that's why it leaves a bad taste in the roofer's mouth, right?

Because they're like, Eh, do I really want to be a associated with this like sales machine? That really doesn't give a crap necessarily about the customer. They just wanna make the sale. Where I'm more like developing the relationship and hoping to become a long term roofer and blah, blah, blah. You know?

So I think that's where a lot of the friction is from. So it'll be very interesting to see how it kind of like comes together and how it changes the industry. Because I think, you know, having a product that is a solar product that now a roofing company can easily learn to install, will change the game for the roofer, right?

And it'll allow them to compete with the solar company. So then the solar company is going to have to obviously do the same thing and start to incorporate more roofing into it. And we see it already. Like we have companies reach out all the time in regards to our products and say like, Hey, we're a solar company looking to get more into roofing.

You guys are very entrenched in roofing. How can we potentially work together? Right? So everybody's already seeing the riding on the wall and trying to kind of figure out how do we meld these two together. And I think it's obviously gonna be the future of the industry is like, and just, you know, society in general I think is gonna move more towards a more energy efficient way of living.

So solar roofing is gonna become more and more prevalent and uh, you know, I really drive that. I think,

[01:10:14] Mike: yeah, that's, uh, you never disappoint me, Pete. I'll tell you what, that

[01:10:18] Pete: insight . And

[01:10:20] Mike: so you guys have got a lot of great things going on. We touched on a lot of them. So if somebody is wanting to get in touch with you or explore options that roofer has for them that can help their business, how would they go about, you know, reaching

[01:10:33] Pete: out?

Yeah, it's a great, great thing. If you go to our website, you know, you have really two options there. You can register for a free account and get started, right? And that's, that's a great way to kind of test the waters with us. Um, you get a couple of free, uh, reports to pull, You get five free proposals to try out, if you wanna take the time and set that up and try it and run it head to head against what you guys are currently doing.

You know, you have that option in there. Uh, we've added that to the free, the free version. So, uh, but I always say the best way to see the value is to talk to somebody, right? Like get on a, get on a call, get on a demo with one of our sales guys and let him look, let him walk through what you guys are currently doing.

and then walk you through how roofer can potentially help that process. Right? Because ultimately at the end of the day, that's what we want to do. Like think of us not as sales guys, but more so as consultants. I wanna take a look at your business and see where can we plug roofer in to potentially solve some problems for you, Right?

Uh, you know, to fill some holes to, to streamline things a little bit more, right? And, and potentially make your process better. And that's ultimately what we want to do at, at Roofer. So I always suggest, you know, it, it's great to jump on and register and, and pull a measurement and compare it to what you're currently doing, but ultimately, at the end of the day, get on the call with somebody, with a sales guy and, and walk through it, walk through your process and see where we can help.

You know? And, and, and let us, you know, like I always say like, I think one of the most underutilized group of people are sales and success people in the roofing industry. Because you gotta remember, like as a roofer, I'm seeing just my business day to day, right? Right. That success person that's onboarding and training.

He could be seeing five or six Rooters a day, right? Like he could be seeing 60 to, you know, 30 to 50 contractors a week. He's in their accounts, he's seeing how they run their business, he's seeing what works, what doesn't work, right? And so he becomes a fantastic resource and very underutilized, right? So get on the call with those guys and, and run it by them.

Say, Hey, here's my process. What do you guys see? Like, what do you guys think you could help me with? Right? Maybe it's nothing. Maybe you have a fantastic process and we're like, you're killing it. Like there's nothing we can do, right? Or you're killing it, but maybe we could upgrade it a little bit by doing this, right?

Or, you know, hey, here's some things that we could do that would drastically, like this guy, I talked to you earlier, right? Like, if we can get it set up to where he can utilize our aerial imagery, he's spending two, three hours on a single job just measuring and quoting, right? Like, if we can reduce that down to a matter of minutes for him, the cost, the time savings and cost savings for him over the course of a week will be like, Insane.

Right? Like, it'll just be ridiculous. Right? So, and that's the kind of guys we really want to help with, right? And, you know, we can help everybody, but those are the guys, like, that's a life changing event for him, right? Like, Oh yeah, like you said, I'm sweating my ass off on a roof, Right? You know, 10 roofs a week, like that's a lot of time standing up on the roof, pulling measurements with a hundred foot tape, it's a pain in the ass, right?

Right. And if I can take that and reduce it to an hour or two a week for him and he could do it from his desk, I just literally change that dude's life, right? Like, it's not, not so much even about the amount of time that I say, like, he's gonna love me for the fact that he doesn't have to climb up on a roof anymore, right?

So it's like, you know, getting with us and just saying like, Hey, here's my pain points. Is there a way roofer can help out? And what can you guys do to help me? Like that's a, that's a huge piece of it. So like, I would suggest go to the website, jump on a demo, schedule some time with us and just run through it and see what, what there is, like, see what the options are.

Nice. Yeah. That's awesome

[01:14:03] Mike: man. Um, if there's one piece of advice. Before we wrap up today for a roofing company, based on your entire history and experience, what would it be? It could have to do with any part of the business.

[01:14:18] Pete: Yeah. I would say find things that work for you. Right. I think it goes back to the CRM conversation is, Yeah, there's tons.

The, the industry is flooded now with, you know, products and, you know, all of these new things coming out. And there's, you know, even CRMs, right? Like, if I want a CRM now, there's a ton of options. Like where there used to be like one or two. Now there's probably 10 different options for a crm. You know, there's tons of measurement tools, there's tons of, you know, seo, there's tons of everything now in the industry and it's like, do your homework, right, But find the one that really fits your business the best.

Don't try to change the way you do business and mold the business to a piece of tech, right. Okay, take your workflow, really dial it in. Figure out what your process is at the heart of it, right? How you want your company to run. And then find the pieces of technology that just improve on that. That's it, right?

It's not, we're not trying to reinvent the wheel by bringing in technology. Like we're just literally, you know, some people can do it with two pieces of technology. You know, I know guys that have company camped for photos and a crm, and that's all they need. And it's like change the way they do business.

And I, and I know guys like our buddy John Broche, who like, you know, John's got more tech under the, Yeah, shout out to John for what he does. And he's like, he's a guru at it. Like he makes that shit work for him. But man, that dude's got a ton of tech, right? That's not for everybody. Like not everybody needs eight platforms to get through the day.

You know, John is the master of it. He's figured out how to make those eight platforms communicate with each other to make an unbelievable world class experience for the customer and for his team internally. But is that necessary for my business? Probably not, right? Like, I could probably do it with considerably less, right?

So I think that's a big part of it, right? Like, don't go crazy. Don't think you need all these things, right? Dial in your process, see where the holes are. Plug in a piece of tech that really solves that problem for you and fixes that pain point, and then find the next opportunity and do it again. Right?

And, and you may find that there may only be two or three opportunities. You may find that there's 10, right? You, you may look for a piece of tech that covers more than one of those opportunities, you know, and all in one platform or something like that, right? So, you know, but I think that, that you wanna find the tech that's really just gonna supplement what you're already doing and just make it better.

You don't want to necessarily mold your business to the tech, right? And that, that would be my biggest word of advice is, you know, to figure out your process first. Like, that's the key, right? Figure out what your process. , right? Don't get on a CRM and then try to figure it out because the CRMs gonna fail if you don't even know what the process is when you go into it, right?

So figure out the process first. Get everybody accustomed to that, right? Be able to relay that to your team easily, right? Like being able to put it down on, you know, write your process down on a piece of paper. If you can't write it down on a process, on a piece of paper, something's up, right? Like you don't have a process.

Like it should be easy for me to take it and say, Okay, this is our process. This is the flow that every single customer should hypothetically go through in our business. Right? That should be an easy thing to do. And if it's not, then you've got some holes there to start with, right? So get that process dialed in and then figure out what tech best supplements it.

That would be my biggest word of advice

[01:17:36] Mike: and great advice. It is my friend, . Look, honored to have had the chance to speak with you today. Thanks for stopping by. I'm sure there's a ton of value for a lot of different people here, and I'm sure they appreciate it just as much as I do. Thank

[01:17:48] Pete: you. Oh man. Thanks for having me.

It's been awesome. It's a, it's a great conversation. Like I said, I could talk about this stuff all day. So, you know, I, I love it and I love that we're able to go in and help the contractors. Like being someone that came ultimately from the field in the beginning, Right? I saw that side of it and I know how tough it is just sometimes to get through the day, you know, not having things like material and stuff not built correctly and, you know, the designer is a architect is a jackass and all this stuff.

Like, you know, you're dealing with all kinds of stuff out there in the field. The last thing you wanna worry about is whether your process is failing, right? So it's like all of these tools are gonna help really to help you along the way with that. And, you know, I see the value in it so much and I love to be able to convey that value to the, to the contractor cuz I was there.

I mean, I know how hard it is to be out there on a daily basis and see shit fall apart, right? So it's like, it's really nice to be able to say, hey, this is gonna solve that problem for you and make a huge difference in your week. So

[01:18:44] Mike: yeah, there's no doubt about it. And um, Don't worry. We'll have another chat with Pete down the road, part two, so stay tune.

But uh, until then, thank you very much, Pete. Stay well my friend.

[01:18:56] Pete: All right. Thank you man.

Mike has David Caroll of Dope Marketing on the show this week! David shares it all; his childhood, turning his life around, starting multiple businesses, and his most important; being a father & husband.

David also shares his super unique approach to his marketing method that is data proven to be optimized every time.

Contact us!

[email protected]

Let's Connect! ==== ==== ==== Website: https://bit.ly/3NQXXKK Facebook: https://bit.ly/3xH8VaT Linkedin: https://bit.ly/3RWTSyr ==== ==== ====

[00:00:00] David: I'm not a big guy on regrets. I'm a big guy on lessons and learning from experience.

[00:00:04] Mike: What is the methodology? How does it work? How does it impact people's business?

[00:00:09] David: Who do I target? What do you sell? What do you do? What is the pain that you solve, and how much does the person's house cost that you can do that for?

[00:01:10] Mike: And we live. Welcome back, episode four, the Mission Control podcast. I'm your host, Mike Stearns. Here we got David Carroll with Dope Marketing. David, welcome.

[00:01:20] David: Thank you for having me, my friend.

[00:01:22] Mike: Yeah, no doubt, man. So for those of those that do not know who is David Carroll?

[00:01:28] David: Who is David Carroll? Uh, I am a, uh, I'm a father of four.

Uh, grew up in, uh, grew up in St. Paul, Minnesota. Um, twin cities, born and raised. Um, ex knucklehead. Went to like nine high schools, Uh, got in some trouble growing up. We'll talk about that later in the interview. Um, started my first business when I was 25. I started a cleaning company here in the Twin Cities, Uh, power washing, gutter cleaning, holiday lighting.

I've had that for 13 years. Uh, have been phased outta that business for about six years now. Uh, does seven figures. I don't even run the marketing there anymore. We have a, we have an agency do that. Um, but cool business, uh, seasonal. It's like eight months outta the year. Can't really power wash here in in Minnesota in January doesn't work too well.

We had a Christmas light sets that business, uh, like five years ago. One of the better decisions we made there so that thing's kind of automated, started a data business 10 years ago. Like I'm a huge. Do we get to swear on your podcast? Yeah, sure. Great. Cause I can't help myself, so I'm a huge fucking nerd.

Um, I like data and spreadsheets and thick glasses and boring shit. And, uh, so I've had a data business for 10 years and now I was coming of the motivation behind Dope Marketing, um, CEO and founder of Dope Marketing, which does, uh, automated direct mail to the neighbors of your jobs to get you, uh, to get you more jobs from the right people.

So, home service, background, data nerd, direct mail junkie, father, husband. I like movies from the eighties. Um, I like hanging out with weirdos like Mike Stearns at trade shows. Um, yeah, I'm the most simple, complicated guy you've ever met in your life.

[00:03:16] Mike: Got it. I like the way you worked that in there. So you had touched on something that I feel like there's some digging in to be had.

Um, Acts and uncle had junkie. I feel like there's a lot unpacking there. So for those interested digging, talk

[00:03:28] David: about it, digging into be had, So my background, um, grew up, uh, I, uh, selling drugs since I was like 14. Um, didn't come from some like horrible household or anything like that, like middle class, upper middle class.

Uh, parents were married three times each. I got seven brothers and sisters. Uh, my mom and my dad had me and my little brother. So I grew up with like, older brothers and sisters and stuff like that. And, uh, I just, uh, I liked, I figured out at a young age that I really liked to do what I wanted to do all the time, regardless of the repercussion or what anyone else said.

Sure. And so I had family out from California. Uh, we were bringing, I was 17 years old, count a million dollars in a hotel room, um, scaled pretty quickly in the realm. That side of life. And, uh, right before my 21st birthday, uh, I got, I got robbed for like 150,000. Uh, these dudes broken this house I was managing when I wasn't there.

Figured out who it was, kicked their door in, hit one of 'em with a pistol. One of his buddies was hiding in the closet. I got stabbed four times, dropped my gun, got hit with it. That doesn't feel that great. I did figure out that night that I was knife proof. So that was, that was a nice, nice thing to uh, to accomplish silver lining.

Um, yeah, right. Gotta, gotta, gotta get together. So, um, I woke up in the hospital. I'll never forget this detective Barbara, Moe, I saw her on first 48. Um, she's standing on over my bed with a line with me circled with signatures next to it. It's like, You've been in some trouble in your life, but never anything like this and you look like a monster.

So you can tell us who was in this house with you. Cuz the guys I went in there with, uh, ended up getting stabbed. They left me in there, they ran away. I ended up having a great negotiation with the guy and his friend who, uh, I hit with a gun. They were gonna take me to the hospital. I ran off. Didn't think that was a great idea.

Passed out cause my lung was collapsed. That wasn't a great thing either. But when I woke up, the lady's like, You can talk to us or you can go to jail. And I'm like, Yeah, tough guy. Gangster Dave, take me to jail. Yeah, go in front of the judge. I'm in there for a couple months or whatever. I forgot what bail they were fucking around.

But, uh, go in front of the judge and they were like, uh, basically you can take, uh, you can tell you can take eight years and one felony, you can take four years and four felonies or you can tell us who you're with. Take a year in a day in the workhouse and uh, and your felonies will be expunged from your record.

I said, Fuck you. Give me the gimme the four years. Did that, uh, did like 38 months, ended up violating when I was in the halfway house. Went back for like nine months, and then I got out right when I was around 25. Went back to like the same type of lifestyle for a while. Um, and what do they say in like, sobriety?

Um, which I, I actually now recently, uh, I I, I just cracked like a hundred days of, uh, not drinking quance. So we'll talk about that in a little bit. But sobriety, they say getting sick and tired of being sick and tired. And I was sick and fucking tired of losing six figures off of doing what I was doing.

Sure. And so I was like, What the hell do I know how to do? And the only job I had ever had in my life, I worked like Arby's. When I was 16 for two weeks, I got a job at a gas station to have like a paycheck so I could get an apartment when I was 18. But they, they got me at, my buddy got me a job at a window cleaning company when I was in the halfway house the first time before I got sent back.

I was like, What do I know how to do? Let's start a fucking window cleaning company. And so fast forward 13 years later, that thing is still cranking, moving, running. Um, but that kind of was my, was my path getting me to here. I will never be the guy that's like. Felons are great business owners. No felons are people that can't get fucking jobs that have to go start businesses cuz no one will hire 'em for the good shit.

You can do sales, but if you wanna go like be an entrepreneur and do some shit, um, usually with a, with a record like mine, like some of you watching or some of your family members or friends or whatever mm-hmm. , um, business owners usually can come from bad decisions that you made previously. So I was kind of new that I was an entrepreneur.

Um, I always kind of had that feeling, but I'll never be the guy that's like, you sold drugs so you're good at running a business. Like, those are two very opposite, opposite things. And not only do I have lumps from making bad decisions, I have lumps from learning that shit also.

[00:07:31] Mike: Yeah. So it seems like, you know, there was a lot of negative consequence and repercussions that maybe you didn't consider when you're younger.

I mean, I know that I've made my fair share of bad choices and plenty still to come down the pipe for sure. Probably today. Yeah. Uhhuh in about 30 minutes. No. Um, but I think it's also, I think in taking the path that you have taken, I think there's a lot of good that has come out of that, you know, as like an unintended consequence as well.

A hundred percent. I would agree with that. So what do you feel, the path that you've taken, what do you feel like it's given you as far as like a unique ability or maybe not unique, just a, a less traditional sense or ability in being successful in running multiple businesses?

[00:08:18] David: I have an unfair advantage of self-awareness.

Um, getting to know myself and being able to take responsibility for the actions that I've done, the people that I've affected. That's kind of, I've, I've carried that with me. My whole, like, everyone wants to be like, you know, stand up guy, stand up, whatever it is. Right? Like, you wanna be true to yourself.

Yeah. I found out like if you can't deal with that person you look at in the mirror every morning, you can't contribute to a relationship. You can't deal with anyone else. And I always knew. For me, I always wanted to have children at a very young age cuz my parents had me. I think my little brother was born when my mom was 40, so she was 37 when she had me.

And I, I turned 37 this year and I have a nine year old, a six year old, a two year old and an eight month old. And it was always very important to me as I was going through what I was putting myself through in my life that I had children at like a younger age. Cuz I always felt like, you know, coming from a second marriage, um, not a super stable relationship household type of thing, where it was like, I felt like, uh, I wanted to be younger and not be that far in my journey of life when I had children.

And so, like for any with kids like you, you understand like being a, being a father, a mother, it, it changes you. You learn like it's one thing to have the relationship with your significant other, It's another thing to understand like there's something on this world that you love more than yourself. But you have to know yourself well enough to contribute to that relationship or other relationships in your life, be it business, personal, family, whatever.

And so I put a lot of pressure on myself to know who I am, how I am, what I bring to the table, how I affect relationships positively and negatively. And because of the journey that I put myself through in, in my life so far, it gave me kind of an unfair advantage or an uncanny ability to be very transparent, very much myself.

Um, I know there would be some people watching this that we, we've met in person, some people we haven't. But like Mike, you and I have spent some time together. I mean, like, dude, I'm, I am every bit of me, uh, with my parents, with my kids, with, with my homies at fucking church. It doesn't matter. Like I, I know myself and I'm, I'm very comfortable with, with who I am, and I have a lot of empathy and compassion for anyone on that journey of, of self-awareness.

But for me, my, uh, my cape. And my cryp tonight is that I, I know myself, I know myself pretty well, and it kind of came from the journey that I went through.

[00:10:42] Mike: Yeah, that's, that's a really good point. And I think, you know, self-awareness is so big, and I think, you know, everybody, obviously everyone has a different journey to become more self-awareness and ever growing process.

And it's not easy, right? We get overran with things on a day to day. When you're running a business, uh, you've got things personally going on and all these different dynamics in your life. It's easy to kind of lose sight of that personal awareness and accountability, but it's, it's ever important in order to consistently grow as a person.

And like you said, be able to, to tolerate who you're looking at in the mirror. Like that job, that's a real thing. Uh,

[00:11:20] David: there's no doubt about that, especially in the evolution. Like as you're growing, as you're growing as a parent, as you're growing as a friend, as you're growing as a business owner, it's like you shed these cocoons.

And if you don't know who you are, Along that journey. And this isn't some exercise for everyone. I mean it more like you gotta know your why. You gotta know what you're trying to accomplish, what you're trying to do, and growing to be that person. Cause you, you wake up tomorrow and just be like, I'm going to, to do this.

It's, it's a process. And so patience is, uh, is, there's no cape there. Patience is my kryptonite. And, uh, as I grow, you know, as a, as a business owner, as a father or husband, it's like, it's really important for me to understand, you know, my, my, my role, my job. Cause there are so many people that are dependent on me.

Yep. Is being patient and not being as reactive and let my actions and emotions, you know, as you get, as you, as you, as you get further in life, um, there are more people that are affected by the way that you're acting and operating every day. And I've had a lot of those realizations in the, in the very, very, very recent future.

or very

[00:12:24] Mike: recent. Yeah. And again, that's another thing that'll keep coming. And I think it's also noteworthy that like you have to be real with yourself. In regards to like that self-awareness, right? Not, you can't take it from a place of like, who, you know, you're, you gotta try to be objective as possible, which can be challenging as well as opposed to very, you know what I mean?

Uh, and I think that's, that's a huge opportunity and I know that that's something that I try to work on consistently because it's like who we are versus who we perceive ourselves to be. And I don't mean to get all existential, uh, right? But it's like, oh, sure. There, there's oftentimes a disconnect or a discrepancy between those two things.

And if you're not aware of that, it can make it challenging to, to set real expectations, be situationally and personally accountable and aware. Uh, so yeah man, that's great. You mentioned something which was terrifying to me when I was, when I was having my daughter. I had my daughter when I was 19 years old.

And my concern, I'm so naturally for you, you that use that don't know. I am a naturally selfish person and I've worked incredibly hard. To be mindful of that and to, to put a lot of intentional effort into being more selfless and yeah, I think I've done a good job. I think I've got a lot of room to grow.

Uh, and it's something that I will, I'm sure battle, you know, for the rest of my life forever. But I'm up to the challenge. My concern when having my daughter was exactly what you hit on. It's not being able to understand, especially for a selfish person, how you're gonna be able to love someone more than you love yourself.

Right. Like the concept of that to me, you know, you try to put yourself, if you're not a parent, I wasn't a parent at the time, I'm trying to put myself in the shoes of hearing exactly what David's talking about as a parent, what you feel. And I was like, for the life of me, I don't see it. Right. And I'm, I'm usually pretty good with understanding empathy and, and putting myself in someone else's shoes.

And I'm like, I'm like, I am absolutely terrified that there's no way I'm going to, to feel this passionate about this little human being. Right. I don't see it. It was terrified, was the most anxiety, riled situation I think I've ever found myself in. Absolutely. And then you hold your baby. Right? I can't communicate the, the amount, the degree, the, the range of emotions that kind of overcome overcame me at that time, and I'm sure are the same for a lot of other people.

Um, absolutely. It was, it was life changing man. So, uh, was, was a huge concern. Glad that I was able to not be a sociopath and actually feel that for somebody else. ,

[00:15:04] David: there's that, there's that, there's that self-awareness kicking

[00:15:06] Mike: in. Yeah, exactly. So, yeah. Yeah. Good stuff. So, gimme a fun fact about David Carroll.

We've talked about a lot already, but gimme a random fun fact and not many people know.

[00:15:17] David: Um, I really like, uh, when I get to do what I want to mm-hmm. , I am chilling in the theater watching a movie with good dialogue by myself. This could be anything from like a romantic comedy from the early nineties to like Stranger Things to like my favorite movie all the time is, is Heat.

Um, but just anything with good dialogue. If you caught me, Bo you said Dave, you can do anything today. Um, you've hung out with your kids, you've done some work, you've done every, you know, whatever. You've checked all your boxes. Yeah. You can do anything you want. Right now I'd be in my theater with one rolled up, hanging out, watching a movie by myself.

[00:16:02] Mike: nice. I, I think, you know, that time away to digest things and unwind is, I think that's important as well. Uh, for.

[00:16:09] David: And that's what it is for me. It's therapy. It's like, it's, it's my disconnect. Some people can like, play a game on their cell phone or sit down and watch a, a ball game or whatever. My thing, my disconnect, um, is for sure movie.

Good, Good, good. Flick with some good dialogue.

[00:16:24] Mike: So you heard it here first. David Carroll. Favorite thing to do is to unplug and go watch a romcom. All right,

[00:16:30] David: So watch out . I got a DVD player. Send me one. I'll tag you. .

[00:16:36] Mike: What's the importance that, in your experience, let's pivot kind of into dope marketing in your past businesses.

The, the art of forming relationships, maturing those relationships. How important is that as a business owner?

[00:16:53] David: It's the most important thing. Um, when you look at your most valuable currency in the. Which is your time, your minutes, you're fourteen forty, fourteen hundred and forty minutes during the day that you have however many, you gotta sleep, you gotta eat, you gotta go to the bathroom, you gotta do whatever, whatever those of you have left outside of functioning like a human, that you get to give to others to share, to build relationships, to communicate, to solve problems, to whatever it is that you're doing.

I would say in my journey of being a business owner, as an entrepreneur, the best minutes that I've spent have been building relationships with others. Um, we, I love to go to trade shows, do public speaking, Catholic humans, touch, feels, smell, communicate, like in person. It's one thing, you know, it's one thing to say a conversation like this, right?

You can get to know people very well on the internet. I have great relationships with people online that I've never met in my life. That I'll probably know for the rest of my life. Mm-hmm. , do those relationships get expedited much faster from people you meet online to when you go to the trade show, you see 'em a couple times.

You get to go to dinner with them and they're sitting video other and hang out and actually see who someone is that exchange. So I have this saying, five seconds, five minutes, five days, five weeks, five years, doesn't matter. You give someone enough time, they are going to be themselves. It's guaranteed.

Now, there are things that expedite those relationships, Business, money, deep conversations or relationships. You can get closer with someone or expedite someone, or that exchange of showing who you truly, truly are to a person. And so when you look at building relationships, the investing of time into other people, I know for my, you know, my path of success that I'm trying to grow for, for me and my team.

investing time in relationships is one of the things that expedites that success or has expedited where we are going towards success for me and the people I'm involved in. For sure.

[00:18:56] Mike: Interesting. So you mentioned something as far as like everyone in due time, different timeline for everyone will show their true colors, right?

A hundred percent. What do you find to be the number one catalyst as far as realizing who that person is in your

[00:19:11] David: experience?

when someone's got their backs to the wall for anything. It could be anything. Like, look, people, people will like, things affect humans differently. We're predictable creatures. Yeah. And you could have someone that was verbally, physically abused as a kid. You could have someone that, uh, that grew up in a bad or a good neighborhood.

You could have someone that stubbed their fucking toe or whatever you went through and you could carry that completely fucking differently. Sure. Like, What someone went, put two humans in a room. Totally different people go through the same shit. They will tell a different story. Me and my younger brother, we grew up in the same house.

You ask us both the story of what happened and it would be two very different versions of a similar thing. Cause we're two very different people. Mm-hmm . And so when you get someone what, whatever you would define as having their back to the wall, and it could be something as big as you got in a fucking vicious argument all the way down to like a minor customer service issue where someone couldn't get ahold of you.

Watch how they operate when their back is to the wall and you're just like, well that's you. And guess what? I'm a believer. I totally believe you. When you show me who you are, I am not gonna second guess that I'm not gonna try to change you. I will take what you give me at face value and I'll determine the minutes that I'm gonna contribute in our relationship.

That's not a good or a bad cuz I don't talk to someone that's like, I'm not fucking with you. No, it's just. . I try to, in that self-awareness, be very aligned with, you know, where I'm trying to go, what I'm trying to do with relationships, with business, with all of it. And so when you look at, you know, uh, how do you know who someone is?

What's a situation where that person was put in a position to be themselves, and how much do you believe what they're showing you?

[00:21:06] Mike: Yeah, I like that. That's, that's smart. That's great insight. How, how important is the circle that you keep around? You kind of piggyback off that point, right? You want to be able to determine times are most important.

Currency. You want to be able to understand for where you are and where you want be, how much you wanna invest in somebody, right? Time wise, how important is the company that you keep around in your circle for those

[00:21:32] David: watching? So, as I get in bigger rooms, you know, masterminds stuff, I'm getting around just in, in kind of my journey.

What I've found is success is a world of cliches. So these things that you've heard your entire life, more money, more problems, watch who you surround yourself with, keep your circle tight. You know, the fucking boring part. It's all true. Every bit of it. Mm-hmm. . So as you know, we all have our journey and maybe you had a kid at a younger age at 19, or maybe you were doing drugs or maybe you were went to college and got a career and realized you wanted more free time.

So you started a business, whatever your, in all those , whatever your journey is. Um, You love me too. Well, yeah, my friend. Um, whatever your journey is, it's like you, you find that the people, you are the people you surround yourself. I'll say a hundred cliches right now. You are who you surround yourself with.

You're the lowest common denominator of the five people that you talk to every day. Mm-hmm. . Um, I have found, with just sharing my personal journey, I've met people over the past year or two that I will know for the rest of my life and be closer with than people that I knew for 20, 30, 37 years, whatever.

But everyone has that story. That's not unique for me. Sure. I find that the more successful people that I get around, let's just say success is defined as fun coupons. My a hundred millionaire buddies are this billionaire dude that I know. They just don't talk to a lot of people. It's not cuz they're like antisocial or introverts or whatever.

A lot of 'em are, but it's more like, how much time do you have? Like, dude, I, I fucking work all day, like, and I enjoy what I'm doing, like a lot. So I'm up, I try to exercise, I try to meditate, I try to do my, my affirmations. Just get my shit together before I get outta the house. Sure. I spend some time with the kids before I go, before I gotta give them to the world.

I go give myself to the world from 8:00 AM to five 6:00 PM. Six days a week, five days a week, um, come back, hang out with my kids. There's not that many, that much time for that many other people. Now, when I go out of town or when I'm doing some shit, or like, I hit my buddy today who owns a roofing company.

When my bu my buddy Aaron here in town, there's a Chappelle, I don't know when this is gonna go live, but it's July 21st. Dave Chappelle did a popup in Minneapolis. We got tickets. I pull it up online. I see there's four tickets. I hit my buddy like, Hey, we haven't seen each other in forever. You just bought a new house.

Do you wanna come to this thing? Um, I have my people, but like, I don't, I haven't seen Aaron in six months. You know, like, it's not like we talk every day or some shit, but I got a short list of local people that I would do some shit with. I got a list of people that I try to be intentional about when I'm at trade shows or going out of town if whether we connect or I just go to their booth or we try to sneak in a dinner or just a non-business thing.

Sure. Um, I try to do that. But it's also like, you know, the busier you getting, especially when you have a family and shit, it's hard, It's hard to spend. So I'm not directly answering the question. I understand, but my circles as small as everyone else's. I don't know. For those of you that own a business and have kids, like, can't imagine you're going to the bar every night or hanging out at the club or going, you know what I mean?

Like, so for me, travel as much as I was traveling, been in town for like four months now, it's been amazing. Yeah. But like I, as much as I was traveling, that was my kind of release to be social with people and that's where I established some amazing relationships. Um, but I'm, I'm by no means out looking to grow my circle now.

I try to put myself, if anything, I try to put myself in the right rooms now. And for me right now, it's masterminds. It's getting around people that have just accomplished things that I'm trying to accomplish in my life. And develop relationships with those people. And I've been so fortunate to get in some of these, these bigger groups of this stuff and connect with some of the leaders of these things and just develop relationships with people that if you had asked me a year or two ago if I would be communicating with some of the people I am now, like, no, it's humbling as fuck.

But it's also just intentional. Like, like anyone could do any level of communication with anyone. So I can't say I'm seek keeping my circle tight because I'm open to it growing Sure. But I'm also being conscious of the rooms that I'm spending time in for sure.

[00:25:55] Mike: Sure. That awareness. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. So for those that, you know, maybe they've got a circle where, you know, there's people from their past that they're keeping in that circle and maybe they're, you know, hampering or hamstringing their ability, you know, to, to devote time elsewhere, to, to make a more meaningful impact in their personal life or in their business.

Have, has that been your experience? And if so, how have you dealt with it?

[00:26:24] David: I wouldn't say that. I'd say because I value my time so much. It's not like I'm selective who I give it to, or I talk to this person or I don't, or whatever. It's more like for me, it goes back to what you were, I'm gonna keep this answer really short. It goes back more to what you were asking about, like, you know, who do you spend your time with or, or how do you, how do you qualify?

You know, the people that you're engaging with or how do you, how do you look at who you would give your time to or not? My job right now is being like the best dad that I can be. I look at my kids every day and I'm just like, You're never gonna be this old again. Any moment that I'm on my phone fucking around, look, watching a movie, just like, Oh, I had a long day, and I just want to go upstairs and just chill by myself.

It's like, I'll hear the kids laughing downstairs. I'm like, I'm missing that moment. I'm never gonna see that again. And I'm hard on my, I'm not a big guy on regrets. I'm a big guy on lessons and learning from experience. I fear right now regretting not paying more attention right now. And I remind myself of that constantly.

So I, I very, when I look at my kids, I have them for an hour or two in the morning before I go to work, depending on what time I'm up, what time they're up. And that, that time is important to me. Now, do I catch a fire? Do I try to work out? Maybe. But I really try to be intentional by that time with my kids summer vacation, they're at home now with the nanny, but when they go to school, I'm giving 'em to the world As they grow up, they get to go do their thing for eight to 10 hours.

And what I give them at home is their foundation around what they do in that time. Then they come bring all that shit that I can't control back home. And I get to tell them how to process that I get to, to be their parent. And we talk about what they're going through, what they're thinking, how they're feeling, like that emotional intelligence.

And so I get that time when I get back. . Those are where my fucking minutes are being spent right now. I have meetings during the day. I have stuff that I enjoy doing that I have people that I like communicating with, getting on stuff like this. I love doing this stuff. Yeah. But, but I also, um, if I look right now at like, where I'm spending my minutes, where my relationships, all of it, my, because I have my kids like, like I said, nine, six, just turned two.

And, uh, Nova was born uh, in November of last year. They are my only focus right now outta anything. It's just being them to have like dad around. Cause I didn't have that like in, in my life. Um, so it's just important to me. We learn from our parents, right? It's like, as you're a parent, it's like, what's the stuff that I thought was fucked up that I'm, Now, I'm not gonna do that.

But then our kids will have the same fucking story. Like there's parenting thing. I know they write books on it, but you're, I promise you, you're not gonna get this shit totally fucking right. It's not possible. So my thing is just if I can be intentional about any, that's my big word. Like lately, it's just being very intentional.

And if I'm intentional about anything right now, it's like being a dad. That's,

[00:29:08] Mike: that's like my shit. That's amazing, dude. Yeah. And we do learn from our parents and we learn what not to do. And it's interesting cuz like sometimes there's also like overcorrections, like, you know, if my dad was really strict, I'm gonna let my kids do whatever, if my kid, whatever if, or if my parents let my sibling do whatever, and you know, when they turn out this way, well I want to hedge against that and I'm gonna be super strict.

And it's like, I think moderation in this situation and in life is important when like, you're, you're trying to, to be, to, to get a desired outcome. Right. I'm the worst with moderation. I'll tell you right now, I really am. You and me both brother, you and me both. It's an ever elusive concept to me and something that, it's another one of those things that I'll be working on every day of my life.

And the gains are never as substantial as I'd like them to be. Uh, but as long as you can move that needle right. Be aware and find like, it's like when I go golfing, right? I don't, I suck at golf. I, I've mentioned this on a show before. I'm terrible at golf, but if I hit that one shot, right, if I'm 70 yards out, I finally hit my, my 60 degree Weller.

I get that one drive, or I hit that 40 foot put, That's good for me. That's that one small win that moves that needle to say, You know what, I'll play golf again. Appreciate

[00:30:18] David: that. Yeah, no doubt. . I still have this one round of golf in my head that I played and I was like, I always knew I was pretty good. It's never happened again.

But this one time where I did this like charity golf tournament thing with my stepmom and like, I wore shorts on the golf course. I had to, I like bought a pullover. Cause I just, I look like a looked apart. I love dressing like a drug dealer. It's my favorite thing in the world. And I, I, uh, I go on the golf course and I'm, I'm with a couple other guys and I fucking just, I killed it.

I killed, I just, the best round of golf I've ever played in my life, this guy's like, Whoa, wow, you're pretty. And then like, but towards the end, it, like, I started sucking and they're like, I was like, Oh, I'm distracted. You know? I forgot what the next story. But in my head I have that memory of that round of golf.

Like I knew I could do it. I'm great. And I got like, we went into top golf with the team last month and I was just like totally Just the worst wheels

[00:31:09] Mike: Completely off. Yeah.

[00:31:11] David: Yeah. It's just, I had the one time, Right. It's progress now. So I get that one drive combined with that. I was like, I knew I was green.

[00:31:16] Mike: There you go. So David, you, you and dope marketing as a team, you've made a huge impact for a lot of people that I've worked with in the past. People that I haven't worked with, that I just know in the industry and have talked to. So tell us more about dope marketing. What is the methodology? How does it work?

How does it impact people's business?

[00:31:35] David: So we talked about this earlier in the interview, like humans or relative creatures. Mm-hmm. . And the idea is in your business, as life goes on, as the world turns, it's like you gotta keep up with best practices. That's one of your jobs. Or if you hire someone to do that, but no matter what happens, like one thing is co.

Things are gonna fucking change. Now, history repeats itself. So you can look at things you're doing well, and you can look at like what makes people do things. The buyer psychology, the human journey. So let's have a conversation quick. It'll go into what, what would dope, but a little lessen here. So Mike and Dave are 18 years old and uh, they finish high school.

They're gonna go to college, maybe, what are the whatever? And they get a house together and they're in an apartment, or they're down by a university, a college in a neighborhood where like there's probably parties at night. There's probably a lot of renters. There's probably a lot of people that don't own vehicles and are commuting.

You know, similar lifestyles in that neighborhood. Now, fast forward Dave and Mike split. Mike goes and gets married. Dave goes on his career path. Mike meets his sweetheart, gets her pregnant, and they go get a little starter home, like a little rambler or whatever. Maybe some people in the neighborhood own.

Some people rent. Most people are probably working on their own homes, like washing their car, mowing their lawn, doing that type of shit. Same size home, same lifestyle. Um, fast forward now. Dave has got to the next level of life. Dave got a good job. He's making fucking 120 K a year. The neighborhood Dave lives in, people own their home.

There's probably not any renters. Maybe they're single, maybe they're married, maybe they got a girl, maybe someone's got a bump, like having a kid making some dough. Same. The houses were built in the same year, same, uh, Mercedes in the driveway, or maybe like a new Tahoe, you know, younger or whatever. Couple blocks away.

Sally and Sally and uh, Eric, they live in a neighborhood where it's like you're established. Your kids are a little bit grown. All homeowners people are paying to get things done at their home. So like 90% of Americans, the biggest investment they'll ever make is in their home. Second, third, and fourth is like improvements, upkeep, or maintenance to that property.

So now you have these people, they've made some dough, they've collected some money, they've made some investments. They're 40, 50 years old. . They're getting shit done at their house. They're remodeling, they're building. They've been there for a while. Someone new moved in and is doing some shit. Yep. Not as many people like mowing their own grass or washing their own car in the driveway or whatever.

But the relativity in the neighborhoods, you see that, that life cycle, right from David and Mike to where they split, to Mike and his girl, to David, his path to Sally and Eric in that neighborhood. The same shit is happening. So we saw dope Marketing was like there's, there's marketing, and in marketing there's values of a touch.

So Harvard Business School did a study. It takes seven to 11 touches for a consumer that hasn't heard of some shit to remember a brand. And those touches have a value. So if I ask Mike, like, What's the last Facebook ad you saw? What's the billboard you drive by every day on your drive to the office.

You'd be like, Dave, I don't know. I'm over inundated. I see so many every day. I have no fucking clue. But then if it's like Mike, if your neighbor just got something done at their house and you saw the truck, there's yard sign in the thing, you saw the guys doing the work. They have a billboard, they're on the radio.

Like everyone's got that company in town. Real estate for us in the Twin Cities, it's Chris Lindel Roofing. There's some huge companies, but like this company, Cell Roofing did radio, tv, blitz, every, So spent all the money to make sure you knew who they were. There's, there's ways to look at the middle ground of that.

Cause not everyone's got 10 million to be doing billboards and TV and radio and flyers and smoke signals and all this shit. But the data in your business will tell a story. So what dope marketing does is we find the dope in your business, the data on previous engagement. We look at the work you did. We look at the customers you're servicing, we have this breakdown where you give us your customer list.

We break down the top three zip codes where you've done work, and then we say, That's where we need to focus the money. Let's look at that. But we focused on the neighbors of a job instead of like direct mail. That's what we do. We automate direct mail. But direct mail previously was like spray and pray meaning, right?

Send 10, 20,000 postcards all over town cost thousands or tens of thousands of dollars. You spray it everywhere. You pray to God, baby Jesus, the great pumpkin, your higher power, whatever it is, that enough leads come back in for all that fucking money you spent, you nine outta 10 times. That didn't work out well.

And you're like, I've sent direct mail. It doesn't work. Like, bro, I get it. I'm, It's not what we're talking about. We use direct mail in that neighborhood analogy with data. So we say average job has a life cycle or a customer, they request an estimate or a lead comes. An estimate is given. An estimate is approved.

Mm-hmm. , The work is scheduled. The work is started. The work is completed. The work is paid for pretty relative transaction. Sure. Yep. We identify the steps in that transaction and make sure the neighbors of that job get postcards to know, We just got your neighbor approved for a roof. Be on the lookout.

We're gonna be in the neighborhood. Pardon the dust. Pardon the noise. We're working in the area. Look at this job we just finished. Thank you. Dave's Roofing lives off reviews and testimonials. Scan this QR code and tell the world how great we are. Or if you had a bad experience, ran over an nail in your driveway.

We looked at your cat wrong. Your daughter didn't like the cut of our gym. Call me first and let me deal with this before you leave that one star review online. So what we've done is taken direct mail, looked at a different approach, looked at data, looked at buyer psychology, human interactions, and basically just made a path of like, what are you doing Well?

How do we focus on that and get more people, just like the people you're doing something for, to know about what you're doing. So instead of like trying to get new things to work, the psychology is taking data to have an understanding that people are predictable creatures and direct mail, it's a valuable touch.

You put something in someone's hand, it's a little bit more important than showing 'em a Facebook ad, but they work together. You wanna be found on Google, you want to have a good looking truck crap. You wanna have people at people's houses that don't look like they're gonna rob them or hit 'em with a gun and get stabbed in their house or whatever, assholes.

Do you wanna be able to give an image, get the valuable touches, and direct mail is a part of that. It's one of the hardest parts. And so what we did at Dope Marketing is we make that really easy.

[00:38:04] Mike: That's awesome. So you know it's taking something that's typically perceived negatively as like a traditional waste of money.

It's archaic, right? It's not as sexy as Google, but then you're implementing through data driven means. A methodical way to bring down what you have to spend to get in front of that ideal person. Right? And I mean, that's all you want when you're marketing or advertising. You want to put your brand in front of the

[00:38:30] David: right people.

There's two sides to it. The bad side is, what I'm bad at is it takes time. It's like, okay, I'm gonna try this for a month and see if it works. Like again, I know how much business owners love being told this, but like if there was some shit that worked in a month, wouldn't everyone do it and own a business?

And it would just be like that. That's, that's the problem we have. This takes for our strategy. We have some short wins. We get stuff done right away, but it takes a couple months to get this going, to look at the data, to see what's going on and responsiveness and all that stuff. And we understand that like business owners have a hundred problems during the day.

We just solve four of 'em perfectly. Data design, direct mail automation, like that's what we really focus on. Um, and like every other business, like we're growing, we're learning, we're figuring stuff out. But I feel like we're taking a very logical approach to. How to grow a business at a scalable rate that's in budget.

That makes sense. That compliments other things. Like Mike, what you do, You know, like we work together with clients. Yeah. Using our joint services. And I think that's really important is like people understand that as an entrepreneur you have five fingers on your hand for a reason. Four things that you're trying, one thing that's working the worst, that's disposable.

That could easily become one of these other things. You gotta, you gotta trust yourself and be like trying shit. And so, uh, we really pride ourselves on trying to bolt onto what a business is doing well and continuing to try to make that stuff better. So

[00:39:54] Mike: you had talked about the life cycle, right? And you guys automate, so for those watching, like how do you determine when things are sent?

How important is the timing of that?

[00:40:06] David: So there's stuff you can control. There's stuff you can't control. So like, I can't tell you that a postcard's gonna get to someone's house on Wednesday for sure. I can tell you that we print and mail every 24 hours. . There's not like a good day of the week for one postcard to drop.

We get asked that a lot, Dave. I right. I wanna be really strategic with what I'm doing and we're gonna do this. What day should I drop? No, it's, how many times in a row should you drop something to get someone to trust you? We did this, there's this amazing case study, we'll talk about it in a second with that eight by eight stuff we were discussing, Mike.

Mm-hmm. . But like, like the idea is you can be very targeted, but the thing is being consistent. So instead of like spraying something everywhere and doing two or three touches to a customer, it's much more important to get a smaller area and make sure your Facebook ads, your door knocking, where you're spending time doing an estimates, your direct mail, your Google focus stuff like everything you're doing is focused in smaller pockets.

Cuz then you can scale. People are born every day. People live in their house for an average of five to eight years. 10 to 30,000 people buy a home every day in the United States. Motherfuckers are moving around. Yeah, so the idea is if you know the neighborhoods of what type of houses you're working on, the square footage of 'em, the type of people that live there, what the materials like.

People ask me a lot about targeting Dave. Who do I get in front of? Like I just started my business, or I'm trying to get into this new area. Who should I target on a list? I have this avatar and they're 34 to to 37 years old, and they have spiky hair and they have one and a half children, and they drive this color car and their grass is this length.

It's like I'm a data guy and I love everything you're saying, but calm the fuck down. The only thing that matters is the value of their home and where it's located. People live relative lifestyles based on the things they can afford. Are there anomalies? Is there one or two people in a neighborhood that has a million dollar home that is cheap as fuck?

Absolutely. But the data will tell you. that if you read, uh, Dan Kennedy's Guide Marketing to the Affluent, No Bullshit Guy or No BS Guide Marketing to the affluent, what Dan will explain is recessions down economies, like any of that shit, it doesn't affect 3% of the country. What if, and I'm not saying anyone should do this, but what if you understood that the messaging to those 3% of people, you could run a business off that?

Now, the great part, businesses are scalable. So there's other 97% of people, like there's 90 million homeowners in the United States, 90 million people. So if you're watching this or listening and you own a home service business, the idea is like your audience is pretty fucking big. Now, it depends on the area of where you live.

Dallas or Minneapolis or Miami is a little bit different than like Meina Arkansas or Knoxville, Iowa. It's a little bit different. But what is the same is the value of the home of the people that live in specific neighborhood. Seven or eight out of them. If you put 10 people in a room that live in a neighborhood and ask them to make a buying decision, seven out of 10 of them are gonna make roughly the same buying decision based on what they can financially afford and what makes sense for their lifestyle.

So when you understand that logic, and it's like, who do I target? What do you sell? What do you do? What is the pain that you solve? And how much does the person's house cost that you can do that for? It's the best start in the fucking world if you need to target someone or get in front of a homeowner specifically.

[00:43:45] Mike: Yeah, that's good stuff. And you know, I think I'm gonna emphasize a point that you made as far as keeping your, your messaging in tight knit pockets where it makes the most sense. That's really, really, really important. And I think it's, you know, maybe it's an ego thing or maybe it's just something that like some of us don't know when we start a business.

Is, you know, we can have aspirations to service a huge demographic marketing area, a metropolitan area, and all these suburbs and every, every hamlet or village or town in between, right? And that's great. But you, like you said, not everybody has a limitless advertising budget. So we have to be efficient.

And the more that we spread, if we have a budget of X amount of dollars, and let's just say for round numbers it's $5,000 a month, the wider we're targeting, the more it dilutes our message, the less times that the people within our target area are going to see it. So we could deploy, uh, a marketing campaign.

It could be direct mail, it could be Google Ads, Facebook, and you could hit three pockets of people and they can see your message 10 times, or you could target 20 places and maybe only 30% of that entire population sees your message that fits into your target market. So, very, very important guys. Keep in mind, How diluted your messaging becomes if you are scaling your areas that you're marketing in and not scaling your budget in a proportionate way.

Very good point, David. So let's talk about attribution. Everybody wants attribution. There needs to be a clear line of what I'm spending, what I'm getting. That can be very tough, especially when you're doing branding efforts and things of the sort. They don't fit into a spreadsheet. Right? So how have you dealt with that?

With dope marketing?

[00:45:30] David: There's things you can track, there's things you can't. Mm-hmm. , we can track the day that we print, mail where it's at in the process and when it gets to a house. So we track that. Mm-hmm. , um, mail production date, mail delivery day. We track, uh, I love call tracking, call or text. Um, when I go to tracking attribution, I think about it like humans.

Humans like to digest content in different ways. Mike, like Mike likes to read the book. Dave likes to listen to the book. Eric likes to watch the video. Someone else likes the braille, Someone else likes when it's transcribed in whatever the fuck. You gotta give everyone the option to be trackable. So you would like ideally to have a call tracking number that can be called or texted.

We all got familiar with QR codes. I'm not gonna go on that tangent, but a QR code can do a lot of shit. It can take you to a page, it can show you a video, it can initiate a text message conversation. It can guide someone, it can tell them to do basically fucking everything. And everyone from my nine year old daughter to my 75 year old mother knows what to do with that QR code.

See it? You're gonna scan it and then if you're interested, you're gonna do what it asks you to do. A lot of tracking can come from QR codes, and because we're a print company, we can put QR codes on a lot of shit. Mm-hmm. . Um, I like, one thing that we do that's very important is we, we look at CRM data. So your crm, whatever you're using, if you're in the roofing space, you know the, the cast of characters, aing, Roof Link, Job nibu, what Job Progress?

There's a bunch of them, but HubSpot, High level Sales Force, you know, whatever House Call Pro, there's a lot of them. What we do at Dope Marketing is you're gonna have a list of leads that come into your business every month. You better be tracking those leads. Verse jobs. It's very important that if you are giving someone a dollar to spend on marketing, that you're not just tracking your closed jobs, cuz God forbid your close rate could be improved or you only close half of your job, Whatever the case is, we're not gonna go on that tangent, but track your leads and your jobs separately.

What we do at Dope Marketing, you mailed in January. You have a list of leads that came into your business in January, in February, we're gonna ask you for those list of leads. We have a list of people of addresses we sent direct mail to. So regardless as if they called scanned, texted, smoke signaled, whatever they did to tell you that they got hold of you, we can take the list of your leads, we can bounce it against the list of people we sent mail to last month and say, This is how many people responded to your marketing that got a postcard.

And we give some value to that. That holds some weight

[00:48:16] Mike: for us. Yeah, that's interesting. So that's it. It's, it's just an innovative approach, right? To, to take something that's traditionally not quantifiable and to be able to help people understand what they're getting on, what they're investing, their roi, which is always important when running a.

I'm a fan of a comeback story, The underdog. And I don't know of a better comeback story than the QR code. Man, this thing was dead in the water. Right. .

[00:48:43] David: Unreal. Did Unreal. I remember seeing him on vending machines. Yeah. 10 years ago. Yep. I was

[00:48:49] Mike: watching Shark Tanks a while back and Mark Cuban, the guy had a, it was a QR centric, QR code centric concept.

And he is like, there, he's like, I will not put a dollar into QR codes. Right. Push notifications are everything it there? It's already antiquated. The technology. And like who would've thought something, you know, I think was Covid that really brought that back, that

[00:49:10] David: non, it was a hundred percent C Don't touch me, scan me, whatever.

Not a lot of good things came outta covid, but QR codes were one of 'em. Hmm. So, and, and one or two of my, one or two of my kids,

[00:49:27] Mike: Uh, well played. So do you work with just roofers? .

[00:49:33] David: No. If you have a business, a tax id, a crm, and a pulse, we need to talk. We got some cool shit we can do for

[00:49:45] Mike: you. So what's the best way for people to reach

[00:49:47] David: out to you? So if you type into Facebook dope marketing.

[00:49:52] Mike: I'm just kidding. I'm not letting you off the hook.

Yeah, we're not done, .

[00:49:55] David: Come on. Right.

[00:49:58] Mike: We were talking about this eight by eight concept and as a guy, I too, I don't have the thick glasses. I've been blessed with great vision. Um, and I hope that that stays true, uh, in perpetuity. Until then, I love data. I'm a spreadsheet guy. Anyone that knows me knows that I'll geek out on data and case studies and even anecdotal stuff as well.

Right. So you had brought this concept to me, showed me a video, and I was super, my interest was peaked to say the least. So let's talk about that.

[00:50:30] David: So I'm not a big TikTok guy. I try as I, as I'm getting older to do all these different social media things and TikTok just hasn't got me yet. But we hired a digital marketing manager that's gonna help us with TikTok.

I bring up TikTok because people started sending me this thing on TikTok about six weeks ago. And if one thing about being successful or trying to be successful, cause I'm not successful, but I'm trying still like an artist cuz success leaves clues. So someone sends me this video and I'm like, I'm running with this shit.

This makes sense. This works. It applies to what we do. In the video that I was sent, that I showed to Mike, go something like this California, this real estate company, they go to this neighborhood and they had an idea. They're like, We're trying to figure out who the number one real estate agent is in this neighborhood.

We have an idea of how to do it. We're gonna go knock on 200 doors. They knock on 200 doors, They get a hold of Mike, they get a hold of Dave, they get a hold of Eric. I go, Mike, who's the number one real estate agent in your neighborhood? And Mike goes, Dude, I know that it's my niece. Dave goes, It's the guy that sold my house.

Eric goes, It's that clown on the billboard. And radio all over. No consistent answers between the 200 people. Not one consistent answer. Maybe one or two, but not a lot. Sure. So they go, Okay, let's run a test. They make up a fake company, stock image, sun title, real estate, branding, the whole thing, and it's fake.

They've never sold a house. And they do what's called an eight by eight campaign. They pick 200 people. They sent one postcard a week to these 200 people. Week one, week two, week three, over eight weeks, one postcard a week about that company, who they are, how great they are, what they're doing in the neighborhood, all this stuff.

Mike, you're a smart guy. After eight weeks, they go back, they knock on the 200 doors. What did 65% of homeowners say the number one real estate agent was in that neighborhood?

[00:52:19] Mike: My guess would be that's the company that didn't.

[00:52:23] David: You know that, that that emoji with the mind being blown . And that was my age when I saw that this was happening, it was, it was wild to me.

Like, shit, I know a guy that owns a direct mail automated business with no minimum order. I think we could do something with this. That's amazing. So we've taken this and applied this to our strategy of what we're doing, setting up automations, doing the eight by eight campaigns, and we do a version of an eight by eight.

We take your last 10 previous jobs, pull the 25 people around each job, and we send them a postcard once a week for four weeks to kind of see what's gonna happen with your automations. When you set up your pre-job, your post job, your thank you. You know, that whole workflow thing we talked about. So this eight by eight and this reactivation campaign, it just came from something that I saw from digesting content and from surrounding myself with the right people that send me shit that pertains to me in my life.

Mm-hmm. . Um, this made a lot of sense to me. So I shared it with

some

[00:53:12] David: people I take serious and I was like, Hey guys, you know, I get a little excited easily about things. Does this make sense to you? Yeah. The way I'm looking at this and you're like, Yeah, Dave, it does. So. It's what we're doing at adult marketing.

It's a really

[00:53:23] Mike: creative, it's a really creative way to prove a point that they, the way that they positioned it, right? You're

[00:53:29] David: just look at it like this. So let's just say it was what? Buck a postcard and you were gonna do. So the way the math backs out, it's like 200 people for eight weeks is 1600 bucks.

You take 200 people that are not in your crm. Like you can't say they've never heard of you if you've done marketing. Sure. But let's say you took your previous jobs that you did over the past three months, last year, whatever, you had a cluster of jobs and you put 'em on a map on Google Maps and it dropped all these pins and you could see where the jobs were.

And you went into an area and you knew a dude that had a map tool where you could draw shape on a map. I know this guy. So we go and we draw shape on the. And then we eliminate the addresses of the pins. So we have a fresh 200 people. Like the, the pins showed us where to grab the area, right? We did work there.

We did jobs there. We went to high school there. We park a truck there. We, we have a good neighborhood, whatever it is. We see the data that we're doing jobs in this area. We grab a list of people. We remove the people from the list that we've done work for. They have 200 people. They might have seen you.

They might know about you, but they're not in your database. They've never requested a lead. They've never done anything. We can show that. Would you pay $1,600 to know over eight weeks? How many of those people would engage with your business after getting one postcard a week for eight weeks in a cycle of, Look at this job we just did in your neighborhood.

Dave's Roofing is the best company in town. Here's a review. We got meet the owner and my team. Here's a picture of me and my kids. Here's a job we did. There's a cute postcard snuck in. Are we getting your attention yet? Another one that highlights an offer. We have templates of a series of these eight by eight things where it's like for 1600 bucks, would you want to know how many people out of 200 this worked for in an area where you're already doing work?

Would be question one for me, It's not, right. Yes, I would pay that. I would do that. That would make sense to set that up. Great. Now, what if you could take and scale that anywhere in any town in your business, once you had the data, you said, I could pay 1600 bucks. 13 people hit me up from this and we closed seven deals.

Does it sound like relative math that you could reapply then in your business to go back to the well meaning that humans are relative creatures, they're predictable, they live in the same areas, and maybe you got a couple areas around town you want to test or try this with it like it made so much sense to us from a trial budget perspective, whatever.

So this is our focus. This is what we're setting up for people to show and prove based on this messaging, what can we tweak? What dials can we do? It's not like you run one eight by eight and you're like solve the world problems, but it's like run one. See what happens. Then run two at a time in different areas in your market and just see what happens and keep kind of proving this out.

What cards are they responding to? What questions are they asking? Continuing to improve that process. What if you did that for a year? Like you were, you were getting more jobs from the neighbors of your jobs with automations, but then you were trying out new areas with an eight by eight, Traditionally complimented by a digital strategy.

It's like, I don't know, dude, I've been doing this shit for 13 years running businesses. This makes a lot of sense to me. Yeah. And then I put myself into shoes of like a door knocker, and I think of a question I'm like, . What if one company was doing this in an area already, like they had this established and they were doing a postcard a week or two postcards a week or something with a salesperson, like actually on the card, the faves face, and they were warming up a neighborhood like this for their reps or whatever.

Just a team, a neighborhood. The owner, the neighborhood wanted to know the owner of some shit. Yeah. What if you had a neighborhood, you were working and you were doing this, Would you wanna be that company or the company competing against that company? If you had the decision, one company was doing what we were talking about and one wasn't, which one do you wanna be?

[00:57:14] Mike: Probably be the one that's doing it. Okay. Yeah,

[00:57:18] David: that makes sense

[00:57:19] Mike: to me too. Mm-hmm. . So it's well positioned, ,

[00:57:24] David: we don't get it all right over here, but we have our moments. Well, I think

[00:57:27] Mike: that's important, like not only with the strategy, just in general, right? Take things that are good, test other ways to make them better.

And guess what guys? You're gonna fail on some of them, some tests. Five fingers. Yeah, exactly. Like some of your tests are gonna be, you know, you're gonna have a really strong feeling that something's good. I challenge you to always test those, right? It's just like when you're starting a business, you, you, you do market research, right?

Because I could have a really good idea that turns out to be complete shit because 99 out of a hundred people thinks it's shit. So it's not a viable business. So you're doing market research in a different way. So figure out what works and then keep testing ways, track them, what's working, what's not.

Like David said, questions that are being asked, like, those are ways in, in indicators of ways that you can make your deliverables, your marketing, your processes, anything better by being aware. Gotta be aware.

[00:58:19] David: I think that's important.

[00:58:21] Mike: Yeah, me too. So I think when you're, when you're communicating with people, especially like a piece of mail, like a mailer or door hang, I think you wanna make your, your branding, you wanna make it clear, concise, and you wanna make it consistent.

Right? Those, that's usually, those are the tenants that I operate off of. And how do you connect, right? You would introduce something not to, well, a while back actually now, like your handwritten mail. Let's talk about that. I got, so I went out and I bought flowers for Lacey, for those of you that don't know, Lacey's my wife to be, shout out to Lacey.

I love you. Um, so I bought her flowers and I was trying to, you know, be the guy that got her flowers just cuz it was Wednesday, right? I saw it in a movie. It seemed like a great idea. I'm gonna do that. And it was from Michel's Florist. They sent me a handwritten postcard a week later and I was like, I will never spend a dollar with another florist simply because the emotion that took place as a result of me receiving some.

Now there's a really good chance that they have a marketing company that's doing handwritten mail for them, right? They might, It would be very hard. I wrote 30 handwritten po um, Christmas cards last year, and that sucked. And probably 18 of them were not legible. So my guess would be that they, they're doing this at scale and I'm somebody who's acutely aware of how marketing works, what's available, the fact that this happens.

And even myself in that moment, I wasn't in tune with the fact that, that was probably happening, was after me reflecting like, Oh, that's probably what happened. But I still appreciate the effort. Right. So talk to me about your handwritten mail.

[01:00:08] David: So we've been doing handwritten direct mail for a couple years and I've just learned a lot about the process.

I bought the machines. We brought, we done a bunch of shit. So fast forward hair lines. I quit smoking. I get this stupid thing that doesn't taste good before I can like pretend that I didn't quit, but. Basically, I've learned a lot through the pain and the journey of getting handwritten direct mail together.

We are very proud that now starting this month, we have handwritten direct mail, fully automated with variable data. Meaning you can go to Mike, Dave, say their name on it, all the stuff on the inside of the card with no minimum order baked into our offering now. So when you go to these eight by eights or something like that, four by four, whatever, something as simple as just like marking a job complete and a handwritten note going out from the owner, we can do that.

Now today. We can also incorporate that into a campaign where like you're warming up a neighborhood or like our neighborhood blitz feature where you draw a map and you wanna send handwritten notes saying, Hey, I saw this, or blah, blah, blah. Maybe you got a list of roofs that you drove by that you wanna upload.

You got the list, you got the addresses, um, and you wanna send those people something We can help with that. Handwritten, no minimum order. And again, I could go, I don't wanna make this into some sales pitch on this. Sure. But like, I am so excited about it because it's been a fucking journey and we got it dialed in and it's fucking beautiful.

And actually again, again, I don't know where, when this comes out, but July 21st, we're releasing it like tomorrow. Secretly basically have to ask us for it. Um, but yeah, something we're really, really excited about because it's so powerful. Two years ago we did a test. I sent out a hundred checks randomly to affluent homeowners cuz like people that are busy, they were less likely to do things.

Can we agree to that? Like, I didn't do a free giveaway, like, do this and you'll get something. But I put a hundred envelopes in the mail, something like this, handwritten, you know, all whatever. Um, with a $10 check inside. And I put a note in there and said, If you open this, just cash this. Check your next cup of coffee's on me.

Guess how many people out of a hundred cash the check? How many? 99. Really? So that means we got a 99% open rate on our mail. So handwritten drug mail, it's a 99% open rate. We proof. It. So now it's, we proved it. cost me money. I literally approved it. I show you a fucking receipt, show you 99 receipts of $10.

Um, it works and it's part of the process with those touches. How valuable is a touch of a postcard versus a piece of handwritten direct mail with the sender, the receiver address and the postcard all written in blue pen? I don't know. Seems pretty powerful to me. So we, again, we don't have it all right over here, but we figured that shit out for real.

I like it.

[01:02:47] Mike: It hits me very excited. I like it. I like it. So for those that are doing direct mail now that are considering handwritten mail, when would you say is the best time to seize the opportunity to deliver a piece of handwritten mail to them? Is it the first touch? Is it after the job? Is it somewhere in between?

Is it all of them? What does that look like to you?

[01:03:07] David: I think it should be in a, in a calculated sequence of what the touches are. You could have handwritten, direct mail work really well for you just doing. Like a thank you, A follow. Maybe you only do commercial work and you want to send a couple of these a month or whatever.

That's very powerful. Still the thank you, the referral, the follow up, the bonus. Um, but doing very intimate strategic touches, that's the focus. I mean, when you look at the value of these touches, like is there a perfect strategy for everyone? No. But the workflow in your business, when you show that to someone that understands marketing, will be able to kind of identify where you put that, put that touch.

That's

[01:03:46] Mike: a good answer. What else you got for us before you head out?

[01:03:51] David: I'm just happy to be here, man. Yeah, we're happy. It was a great talk. I know we went kind of deep of whatever, business, life, all that shit. These are, these are the fun ones for me, man. I'm just excited to, uh, I'm excited to connect with people, man.

We got, I won't say we got a ton of shows coming up, but we're doing a lot of cool stuff where, uh, I'm just excited to connect with businesses.

[01:04:10] Mike: Nice. So I'm not, I'm not pulling your chain this time. How do people go about reaching you if they wanted to, to have that conversation,

[01:04:16] David: this jerk set me up. Um, if you type into Facebook dope marketing, you'll get this hilarious error that's like, whoa.

You might be searching something that has to do with drugs or illegal narcotics. I promise you're not. It's just us. It's dope marketing. We're there behind that. Error dope marketing.com. Shoot us a message. We got Messenger all over our website. Look us up on Google Dope, d o p e marketing. Um, we're pretty easy to find.

I'm, I'm the bald guy yelling about stuff on the internet. I

[01:04:49] Mike: promise you, once you go to that Facebook page, he will not let you forget who he iss. Probably not. Or the website or . Well, David, always a pleasure man. Thanks for coming on. Lot of value and uh, we'll,

Ferocious Branding with The Roof Tiger

In today's BONUS episode, Mike Stearns has the one and only, Roof Tiger, Ben Tiger. The guys dive into how branding, standing out, and word of mouth can help grow your roofing business in the best ways!

Let's Connect!

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Website: https://bit.ly/3NQXXKK

Facebook: https://bit.ly/3xH8VaT

Linkedin: https://bit.ly/3RWTSyr

[00:00:00] Ben: Leads are a product of building a good brand. People contact me because they wanna work for me

[00:00:05] Mike: when they move in. Marketing advertising being different is huge,

[00:00:09] Ben: right? The faster you can get jobs done, the more effective your jobs will look, and the happier your customers customers will be, which in turn, Creates referral.

[00:00:28] Mike: What's up y'all? I'm Mike Sterns with the Sun Digital Agency. We have a spontaneous episode of the Mission Control podcast with our guy Ben Tiger. We here. We here in Buffalo, New York, all the way from Illinois. Welcome. Thanks buddy. Thanks for having me. Thanks for coming. That's a nice ensemble you got there.

[00:00:47] Ben: Just for the occasion, mission control podcasts, figured we had to

[00:00:49] Mike: do it right. Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . Let's, let's, let's talk. Ben Tiger. Why? Ben Tiger. Ben Tiger's not your real name, right? My

[00:00:59] Ben: last name's Mauro. Mm-hmm. is not Tiger. I, uh, when I first started getting into marketing and branding, the more that I could basically stamp name stamp tiger over everything mm-hmm.

um, the more that the name would come, you know, consistent with roofing. So I changed my last name on Facebook to Benjamin Tiger. Started roof tiger, obviously, and the rest is history. So here we go.

[00:01:21] Mike: Put it in the book, put it in the books, folks. So talk about why Roof Tiger,

[00:01:29] Ben: the name or the business. Yeah. Um, my dad called me Tiger when I was a kid.

Um, and so Tiger was a natural, um, you know, uh, naming right to it. I find that 80 plus percent of roofing companies named their company after their last name, and I knew I wanted to be different. So Roof Tiger was born out of wanting to be different from the industry. Um, and so to, I think in order to scale fast, you need to be unique, and that's what Roof Tiger offers is something unique.

[00:02:00] Mike: Yeah. And I think it's really, it's an important. important facet to hit on is that in marketing advertising being different is huge, right? It is. It 100%. It's attention grabbing. You have a, you have an interesting take on branding as far as even internally with your employees. What do you, what do you guys wear out in the community to, to really indoctrinate the, the residents of Peoria and surrounding areas with the brand?

Roof? Tiger. I want you

[00:02:25] Ben: to put it on the, on the screen right here. It's the air, Nike, presto, tiger stripe. Mm. Um, and so they're tiger stripe shoes. Um, and so yeah, same thing with my name on Facebook is to name Stamp and to Tiger Stripe. Everything, as you just said a couple minutes ago. It's like being different is better.

And so I know that most people don't do that, so that's why I do it.

Yeah.

[00:02:52] Mike: Do you have, and this is a question that everybody wants to know the answer to, and I'm, this is unscripted, right? We haven't talked about what we're gonna talk about today, so I'm gonna put you on the spot here. Love it. Do you have.

Tiger blood cosing through your veins, always, always. You heard it here first folks got the tiger blood. So do you have, did you have a background in construction and home services? What was the, in like, what made you think, okay, I wanna be in

[00:03:21] Ben: roofing. I was in the bathroom model industry for three years and kind of studied how we did business.

Uh, shout out to Paul Baso and Shannon La. They're the first guys who gave me a chance at being a sales manager for a, a remodel company. I knew nothing about bathroom remodel. Came in, uh, basically saw that there was kind of five stages to it. It's kind of lead sale, uh, planning, production and follow up.

And so I created a company, um, after I left that with Roof Tiger to be exactly the same way, is to kind of follow these five steps and to be as refined as possible within each. And so the faster you can have your employees understand their role in the process and how to hand off from one to another, the faster you can get jobs done, the more effective your jobs will look, and the happier your customers customers will be, which in turn, Creates referrals, uh, along with a strong brand presence.

It really is. That's the one two punch is really solid customer service and strong brand presence. That's

[00:04:20] Mike: what I preach. Yeah, that's a really good point. So while there's, I'm sure a ton of similarities between the interior renovations and roofing. Yes. What challenges were you faced at as far as like what you thought in your mind was gonna be very similar?

Were there any things that came to fruition that you're like, Ah, shit, we gotta go back to the drawing board with this? Um

[00:04:45] Ben: hm. I think finding super good quality subcontractors to work with. Mm-hmm. was a challenge in the first six, eight months. Sure. Um, but I think one of the biggest things that people don't understand about strong branding is that people come to you that are really good roofers.

And so the more that I branded my company and sort of to grow, the more that subs would actually reach out to me and say, I wanna work for you guys. And then we would treat our subs with the same amount of respect we treat our customer. And it just led to this amazing group of people that we have now.

We have probably 15 or 20 roofers, um, that work for us almost every week, and they're incredible. So, uh, that's one of the biggest challenges was, was finding high quality subs that will take care of your jobs as much as you take care of your customers. Do you still

[00:05:32] Mike: have to watch over them?

[00:05:34] Ben: Yes. Okay. Oh, that's, Anything is you have to keep a good pulse on your business.

My dad actually is the one who heads up construction. And he's very, he's 64 years old, very hard worker, and he's got an older man presence, which it helps. Um, if I was the one managing crews, I don't think I would have as much of a, of an onsite presence as he does. So it helps to have, uh, multi-generational labor too, as he's just, uh, wealth of, uh, he's awesome.

[00:06:00] Mike: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I can vouch for him. He's great. Yeah. So for those that. Have a fixation on acquisition of new leads and appointments. That's a common theme. I can love working with roofing contractors and wouldn't have it any other way, but I find in general there's typically an apathy towards branding or it's, or it's an oversight.

Why? Well, that's gonna be the next question for you. I, I don't want to answer the question why, cuz I don't wanna speculate here. But what I want you to do is, I, you've done a very good job with your brand. You're gonna be speaking at a conference coming up the Roofing Process Conference. Go check out my guy, Ben Tiger at the Roofing Process Conference, and then swing by the Ascend Digital booth while you're there.

But you've done a really good job with the branding side and many others. So not to disparage you in in those regards, but specific to branding, talk about all the different benefits of brand.

[00:06:57] Ben: Yeah, it first comes with lead generation. Second comes with people trusting you because they can Google your, your name like when you, when you do something different.

So obviously we are roof tigers, our business name, we own the key routes tiger on Google. That's like really important. So somebody even forgets what our business name is, but remembers that we have tiger stripe trucks. Mm-hmm. , if you just Google Tiger, Peoria, Illinois will pop up. So awareness. Which turns into trust because our Google profile is really strong with, we have a hundred and forty five, five star reviews.

Um, and then it comes to employee retention. Um, people like love to work for us, um, not just cuz the brand we've created, but the, I feel like the brand encapsulates how I treat my people, which is fun, which is respect, which is. Um, giving them autonomy over their lives. Um, so it, leadership, retention, and then obviously, so we're growing right now, we're, I just hired two more people.

They are so excited to work for us and I think that's because the perception we've built about our company and then subcontractors obviously, I think you'd be, even customers even working with us, they're excited to buy a roof from Roof tiger. Yeah. You know? Yeah. Yeah. It's a thing. Sure. Where if you work for a generic company, it's just like, I need to get this done.

Or I've had many people reach out to me and say, I wish I could buy a roof from you. I've actually heard that being said, which roofs are not cheap and they're not very fun, so that's cool.

[00:08:21] Mike: Yeah. So it sounds like you are, you're kind of paring your brand. Specific to internally with your team members, you're parly in your brand with a strong culture, right?

Yes. And those things kind of play hand in hand. Yes. Make yourself a nice peanut butter and jelly sandwich. . God, I'm hungry. So what are some of the things that you do to. Make your team members feel as if you know what, It's not just these aren't just core values that are on the wall. These are the principles that drive roof tiger.

This is a place that you wanna be, and the reason you wanna be here is because we care about our customers. We care about

[00:08:57] Ben: you. Mm. Before I answer that, let's go back a step. I wanna ask you a question. Okay? Why are your clients so hesitant to dive into branding?

[00:09:10] Mike: Why are my clients? So I was speaking more at an aggregate level.

If you, if, if

[00:09:15] Ben: we take, not your clients, but the, the industry at whole,

[00:09:18] Mike: I think it's not as sexy. Uh, you know, it's . It does a lot more as far as. Immediate revenue to get leads now, Right? So to, to paint a picture of what branding is going to do for you. It's not that shot in the arm. It, it's not quantifiable.

People like to be able to put into a spreadsheet or into their crm, run a report and say, Hey. This was the output financially for these efforts, and this is what came back as a result of that. And I'm the same way. I'm a big data guy, right. Because I like to be able to prove what we're doing and what impact it's having on a company.

Yeah. But you can't do that with branding Hmm. To the same degree. Right. It, it works. We know that it works. I mean, just do it right. Aha. Right. Have it your way. Couple catch phrases where everybody knows what that triggers in your mind, but I keep, you know, it is far less easy to demonstrate the impact financially that it's having on your company.

And it takes longer, it takes consistency. You have to be in incredibly focused on brand consistently to develop that brand equity. Mm. You know, you do it right down to your guys wearing the Nike Prestos, making sure that your team members are in their, their proper get up to, you know, so that when they're out on lunch, even they see five guys in roof, Tiger Apparel.

It's like, Aha. Yes. And then they see the Tiger striped truck or Tesla, right?

[00:10:47] Ben: Yes. So I totally agree with that, Mike. And it's, it's a commitment to a long term business building process where I think a lot of people want the short steroid in the arm to say, I want to be a big business fast. Right. What people don't realize is that roofing companies go in and out like night and day.

Companies start up and shut down all the time. So to truly build wealth and to truly build a business that's respected, you need to do it over a period of time. I think in timeframes of 10 years, quite literally, and I'm in year two right now, just starting into year three. Uh, and so I'm not thinking 10 months.

I do things in the 10 day interim to prepare for 10 years. Like I, I create content now to build my brand for a 10 year period. Right. But I don't. Leads are not my focus. Does that make sense? Mm-hmm. leads are a, are a product of building a good brand. People contact me because they wanna work for me when their roof is, needs to be replaced.

That is far more valuable to me than just going to get leads, uh, you guys out there. Uh, if I could, if, if you're buying leads from Home Advisor, from Angie's List, from all these other places, it might work for you, but I can guarantee you my, my aggregate cost per lead is way less because you're buying those at a premium.

Wouldn't you agree?

[00:12:08] Mike: Yeah, I, I compare it to you've got two runners running a marathon, half marathon, 5k. Yep. You name the distance and one's running at a 15 degree incline and then one's running on flat terrain. Which one's gonna finish Quaker? Which one's gonna have a harder time? The guy running up a, a pitch slope, it's gonna be much harder for him to compete with the guy that's running on a flat, on a flat terrain.

Right. And that's kind of what it is. The devil's advocate in me could say, Well, Ben, it's not as if I can't be successful. I can, I feel as if, if you start a roofing company, A A a A B, B B roofing, which I don't think you would say by conventional measures, would be a strong branding opportunity. Right. Okay.

Yeah. I would argue that I can make that brand successful through the right digital marketing. Hmm. The caveat to that is how memorable can that be? How can we make that long term sticking to people's. To where we, we beat them over the head with that brand. Are they gonna remember aa B B B B roofing? Are they gonna remember roof tiger?

Mm. And I think it's an easy answer to say that roof tiger is gonna be more memorable. And it does, it has serious long term implications because if you talk about you, you said a 10 plan. If we even fast forward three years and somebody saw a piece of roof tiger content where it was just tiger stripes everywhere you got a personality.

Versus, you know, just a, a regular piece of content with a, with a roofing contractor that, especially unlike social media, people are less likely to care about roofing in general, no matter how good your brand is. Yep. Now you can find ways to make them intrigued by it, and that's by way of personality with the brand.

Mm-hmm. . But, uh, I think you really have to cater to that short term quick, uh, quick attention span because people don't pay attention for very long. That's true.

[00:13:58] Ben: Do you know what the approval rating of contractors. What do you mean? Approval rating? Approval. Rating of? Of trustworthy rating of National Gallup polls of people who trust Con the name of a contractor?

No. What would you guess? I just looked this up three days ago. Per

[00:14:17] Mike: the percentage of homeowners that trust?

[00:14:20] Ben: Yes. The percentage of people who say I trust contractors.

[00:14:26] Mike: I would say it's right around the same percentage of contractors that say they trust marketers,

[00:14:31] Ben: which is how much

[00:14:33] Mike: 18% .

[00:14:36] Ben: You're exactly right.

It's 82% of people do not. I hit the nail in the head. On the head. I think it's no, no bullshit. This is like a study . I'm not kidding. This is a study from like 2003, so this might have changed a little bit, but 82% of homeowners found that they do not trust contractors. So think about that, that if you're trying to just get leads, quick business, if you just started your business, you're like, I need a shot in the arm.

I need to go get people to trust me. If you're not starting with a foundation of brand equity and brand quality, you'll be either out of business quickly. Or people will not trust you off the cuff. You have to build the trust of consumers, cuz automatically you're starting out at a disadvantage. Do you get that?

I do get that. As a marketer, he

[00:15:17] Mike: probably does. Now I'm not a roofer. Mm-hmm. . Right? I've never, I've never owned a, a construction, roofing company. But let me ask you this. In a business where seemingly, especially, especially in the infancy stage where cash flow. So monumental Yes. To, to keep going and to stay open and not to fall into that statistics of this percentage of roofers fail in the first three years.

Sure. How do you balance the need to get leads now and then concurrently at the same time? Start building that brand equity. Uh,

[00:15:53] Ben: you have to start with a brand at first because if you go door to door for instance, and you wanna build, you know, your business by door to door, which I have no shame, I did it in the beginning of my business as well.

When you do that, they're gonna google your name mm-hmm. and say, What's this person and company all about? If you don't have at least some kind of foundation of an office, of a website, of some kind of genesis of your business, why would they trust you to sign a co. If you're just a Joe Schmo off the streets, it's like I have to do research.

So many people nowadays, I mean, what's the statistic of people googling something before they purchase? Do you know that? I mean, it's not, I don't, but it's, Yeah, it's really high. So I'll have to look that up after this. Um, the percentage of people that Google something and find out the legitimacy of it before they purchase is high, especially with a $10,000 average.

So build your brand to start with. You can spend, I mean, not too much money, but spend a little bit of money on your brand at first, and then go out and door knock, create lead opportunities. Get your first customer. Take great care of 'em. Rinse and repeat. Rinse and repeat, until you can grow to a sustainable place of getting Google reviews where you're over 10, 20, 30, 50.

A hundred,

[00:16:59] Mike: what is, what is your process for reviews? Cuz you've done a good job. Yeah. Right? Mm-hmm. , making sure you're amassing reviews on a consistent basis. How many reviews are you at now? Hundred 40. 40, Yep. Hundred 45. Yep. What has been the most successful approach? Because I think in general a lot of contractors do struggle, uh, with.

Getting their customers motivated. They can have the happiest customers in the, in the world, but getting them motivated to take that action. So what have you done that's different from most that has allowed you to mobilize your customers to make sure that they're expressing to the world on Google? Yeah, how

[00:17:33] Ben: great their experience was.

It's a three step process. Step number one. Hey Mike, would you do me a huge favor? This is to via text. Hey Mike, would you do me a huge favor? Yes. Perfect. At this point, he's already finished the job. He already likes it. And then I explain the pitch. The pitch is this, We get a ton of business from Google Reviews.

If I sent you a link to my Google review page, could you fill it out for me? Yeah. Fantastic. Copy the share link from your Google profile. Paste in a text message, send it off three steps. You do it in succession within a two minute conversation via text. And you know, at that moment they're already on their.

They're already right there. So if they tap on the link right there, bam, you got it. That's how we do it.

[00:18:19] Mike: Yeah, that's really good. Uh, usually what I recommend is, is like a project manager while they're walking through the QC process with the homeowner, face to face, really the same thing. Get a commitment as far as they're willing to help you.

Can you do me. Can you do me a salad ? Right? Will you, can you would I usually tell 'em too, try to try to incite some sort of excitement cuz like roofs innately to a homeowner isn't super exciting, right? Like, they might be like, Oh, that looks great, but it's not. , that new pair of Yeezys they just bought, or that brand new truck they just got.

Right? Right. There's not gonna be that same level of fuck. Yes. Yeah. So I usually tell 'em, like, try to create some sort of excitement. Right. And, and make sure that they're happy. Get 'em excited about it. Yes. Then get that commitment in some capacity. Hey, would you, would you do us a favor? Um, and then share the link with them because I, and this is great that you haven't seen this.

I find that a lot of people, when they're doing the text messaging, they get the commit. They say they're gonna do it, they don't do it.

[00:19:15] Ben: Yeah, I follow up. Okay. I follow up with, I'll, Even if you just go back in a text message you on an iPhone, how you can highlight a text and press a like thumbs up. Yeah.

[00:19:23] Mike: passive aggressive. I do that with Ben Tiger, but I do that. Yeah. But here's

[00:19:27] Ben: why they said they would. Right. So that point, I'm not being too forward, I'm just saying, hey, Just reminding you.

[00:19:36] Mike: I I like that.

[00:19:37] Ben: Yeah. Yeah. But I think this is a big, this is kind of an undervalued thing. Um, when you first ask, Can you do me a favor?

And they don't know what you're asking, and they say, Yes, it's a big thing cuz they're committing to it once. Yeah. Then you send 'em the review, uh, question and they say, Yes, I'll do that. Then you send 'em the review. So they've made two commitments to you. Then you send the review and bam, you should get it back from there.

And by this point, guys, you're not forcing somebody to do something that they don't like to do. They obviously like your business and paid their bill. Therefore, they enjoyed the process. Therefore, hey, could you do me a huge

[00:20:10] Mike: favor? Mm, yeah, that's good. You know, Do you. Do you guys get any opportunities off of Facebook group community groups within Peoria or the surrounding areas?

[00:20:21] Ben: Yes, I get tagged in a lot of 'em, um, with other people that I've built the brands with. So in the beginning when I first started the brand, I bought like 50 t-shirts and starting just shipping them out to the community, to other people. I would post 'em on Facebook and say, Hey, who wants a t-shirt? A lot of people would comment, I would send 'em out.

I would build brand loyalty. And therefore, in those Facebook groups that I don't live in Morton, Illinois, But if I sent a t-shirt to someone that lives in, in Morton, they would then, uh, tag me in post if somebody said, I'm looking for a roofer. So it's like building salesmen almost on the internet. Yeah.

[00:20:53] Mike: Like a fleet of tigers. Like a, A streak. A streak. A streak, yes. A streak is like a herd of tigers. That's the name. Yes. Dedicated to tigers, New York Giants are turning it up. Aw, Snap. 20, 29, 4. Watch out Rogers. So have you ever invited any of your happy customers when they give you that five star review into those community groups?

No.

[00:21:18] Ben: That'd be smart. No, I have not. Okay. Good idea. That's what I'm here for. I'm not a part of the groups themselves. They just tag me. , and then sometimes they'll show my notifications and I'll respond to it and say, Hey, I'm here for you if you need me. We've grown to a point where I don't really need to go scalping for, you know, Facebook, uh, scalping.

You know what I mean? Like , I'm not scraping the barrel for leads right now. Of course, not that those are bad things, but when in the beginning I was responding to every single Facebook post. I'm talking everything. Yeah, everything. And now it's like to the point where I'm really responding to the ones people really are, really wanna work with us.

Right. Cause we're to that point

[00:21:57] Mike: now, which is great. Do you, do you foresee bringing on more sales people as you continue to grow the business? Yes, I do. Is it a plan of yours to make sure that they maintain that personal touch on social media? Like will that be a part of their sales activities or is That's really

[00:22:12] Ben: my.

Okay. Um, some people, my, my VP of sales, Adam Cole, shout out, he's really good at that too. Uh, Washington's a very affluent, good area for roofing, so he lives there. And so he's involved in several groups that he'll actually comment on. Um, and so, yeah, I think that's a, that's a smart thing to do is have all your staff involved, but at the same time, you don't wanna burden them with social media responsibility if.

Busy doing their job. So I find that I do a lot of that myself if I can.

[00:22:39] Mike: Gotcha. What is one of the biggest challenges that you've had since the, the formation of Roof Tiger slash Solar Panther

[00:22:48] Ben: survival. Ooh. Um, you guys know if you're a roofer, how intense cash flow situations can be. Mm-hmm. , or you're constantly purchasing and money's going at the back door.

You get a big check, you get a big, uh, bank roll, and then all of a sudden it goes right out the back door. So you're constantly dealing with cash. One of the biggest things that's helped us is getting a credit card. Uh, it took us over a year and a half to get one because of our, you know, you just need to build long term credit rating with Dunson Bradstreet.

Um, but yeah, once we get a credit card that had a high limit, uh, and then we could charge our materials and stuff to a credit card, it, it helped us with cash flow like a lot. So that's a big part of why we're succeeding now is managing credit Well,

[00:23:31] Mike: yeah. I think that is, Critical. It is man, . Yeah, and, and I, Well, it's one of those things where there's so many, like if you go from a position of sales into a position of ownership, leadership.

Mm-hmm. , there is a lot, and I know this from experience and you've look taken a similar route it sounds like, where you went from sales. Now I'm starting a business and there's many more people out there and hopefully many of 'em that'll be watching this. There are a lot of things right, that you miss or just are ignorant to when you start that business.

As far as the inner workings of a company cost, how you're going to facilitate certain outcomes for different things, Who you're gonna choose to run your credit cards with. From your customers, how much are they gonna charge you? Is it a fair rate or are there better rates? And like, shopping those things aren't easy.

Right? Yeah. And, and, and the, the most fun part about it is when you are trying to, let's say, get a merchant account so that you can conduct credit card transactions. Yeah. So you can make your services more accessible to your, to your target market. You know, you're starting a business, you're in month one, and Well, we need 18 months worth of bank statements.

Yeah. . Yeah. It's, Well, I started three days

[00:24:43] Ben: ago. It's your first child. Yeah. And, and, and, Yeah. Box of donuts to go along with. You're like, bro,

[00:24:48] Mike: I mean, that was one of our biggest struggles when I started Yeah. Was it was super tough. Yeah. Because we used, uh, we used Square, I think, and um, it's like four or 5%.

Yeah. And you know, one, know what's great about it was as we talked about, Guess the 18% credibility factor and I don't know how I got that right. But yeah, I'm gonna pat myself on the back cause that was awesome. . Um, that I, I mentioned it's the same for marketing companies as it relates to roofing contractors or any, anybody really.

People don't trust marketing companies cause there's a lot of shitty marketing companies that do unsavory things. So Sure. What we were running into, Liz, we would, I would have a meeting with a, a prospective client. They would decide, you know what? Ascend this for me. We're gonna do it. Then I would run the credit card transaction and because it was keyed in remotely and because it was outta state every time it was getting hit as fraud.

So you've got somebody on high alert already that doesn't trust marketing companies. We've gained their trust through experience and showing, you know, results. Yeah. And through social proof of what people are saying about us. But then all of a sudden they get a notification from their bank. This is a fraudulent activity.

how off putting would that be to you as a consumer? Big time. Yeah. So, you know, you go to charge one of your credit cards for your customers and like, this is fraud really. Sorry. Yeah. Uh, yeah, I'm good. Uh, yeah, so that was very challenging. So I think that, uh, yeah, that's, that's good insight, man. And just, uh, spend time, I would say invest time consistently in trying to refine your business.

Right. And as that relates to the manufacturers that you're using, The supply houses that you're using, the crews that you're using, just, and I'm not saying this in a way to like be disloyal to people that have been good to you, but there's a lot of times where you've got these kind of tenured relationships with manufacturers that I see.

Yeah. And they're not being as great to you as. Thought that they were right three years down the road and you're like, Well, this dude's getting materials for this . Right, right, right. I'm paying how much more per square. This is wild. Right. So I think, I think it's one of the beauties of capitalism Right?

Is the, the competitive nature of it and, and people keeping people honest. Yes.

[00:26:57] Ben: Would you agree with that? I totally agree. I, I have a very good relationship with abc, um, and I, I use them for 95, 90 6% of our orders, but once a year at the beginning of the year, I bring quotes from other, other suppliers and say, Gimme your best shot.

I'll, I'll, I'll look into it, and I bring 'em back to abc and if they're beaten, I'll tell 'em and they'll match the price or go lower. Mm. Um, and so I've, I'm not going anywhere probably for ABC unless something really screws up. Yeah. But, uh, I'm still price matching them to their trust, but verify. Trust, but verify.

And they know that, um, because I have a business to run, the employees at my ABC store are not running the books like I run my books. Right. ABC has billions of dollars probably, you know, in bankroll. Sure. I don't, Therefore I'm gonna be holding you to a higher standard. Right. Yeah. Because if my business has a bad quarter or a bad six months, I have a lot of personal families that I have to look after, and so that's, that's like weighing in my mind when.

Go to work each day. So making those business deals, negotiations is super valuable.

[00:27:57] Mike: Yeah, that's a really good point. So you recently had, and I mean you're still a young business, right? Yes. Your growth is tremendous. Mm-hmm. and I have all the confidence in the world that you're gonna take over Illinois sooner than later.

Um, but you had some kind of an anomaly happen in an area kind of right next to Peoria. Yes. And you had a hail storm. Yes. And you guys are retail to the.

[00:28:19] Ben: We are retail, we do understand the insurance industry. Mm-hmm. , but we do, we don't door knock for insurance. Um, we're not, uh, storm chasing. Um, we know how to handle insurance companies.

Um, we use balance claims for like Xactimate, writeups. Mm-hmm. . Um, and so we understand how the game is played, but we are n not like, You know, a 10 million plus storm chaser, that's not our business

[00:28:42] Mike: model. Prior to the storm that you guys got, which by companies that work predominantly storm, I'm sure would be viewed as a very

[00:28:49] Ben: small storm.

Yes. 8,000 homes got

[00:28:52] Mike: impacted. Okay. So prior to that storm, what percentage of your business had gone through an insurance claims process? 30%. 30%? Yeah, I'd say roughly. Okay. Uh, so yeah, you've got. You've got experience in it, Like how big was that experience in capitalizing on the opportunity that the storm presented?

[00:29:12] Ben: I'll, I'll answer this question exactly how Mike kind of started the conversation, which is through branding. So Sep uh, August 19th, the storm fell. All these out-of-state contractors flood into Washington, Illinois. I mean, everybody in their mother was like, Let's, how many people live in Washington, Illinois?

Uh, it's 15,000. Okay. . Ok. So it's not a very big town. But seriously, a bunch of out-of-state contract, uh, up North Chicago, Iowa. I mean, a lot of people came into town looking to capitalize in the storm. Washington, Illinois has a no door knocking policy. People can't door knock. So guess what people did? They went to Google by Monday.

The follow the storm happened on a Saturday. By Monday at 135 calls, uh, that had been rang into Roof Tiger. So that is the power of branding that 135 people called us literally two days after the storm and we ended up selling over a million dollars in the month of September from it.

[00:30:03] Mike: So you're in your third full year right now?

[00:30:06] Ben: Uh, we just started our third year, right?

[00:30:08] Mike: Yes. So second full year. What did you do in revenue?

[00:30:12] Ben: Um, from. Well, it's, it's kind of hard to start. I started in August, which is a bad idea cuz you were coming about winter things you don't know until you do it. Uh, started in August. Um, basically from August, I think to December we did like 200,000, 250, 300,000.

Uh, then the first full year, January to December we did 2.6 million. And I think, uh, what we're, we're right now through year end, 2022 we're at 4.1. Um, trending toward 5 million

[00:30:44] Mike: mm. That's amazing. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. Are you gonna keep that percentage of year over year growth coming into 23? No. , you gotta have the right expectation folks with your customers and with yourself.

No,

[00:30:55] Ben: this is what I'll tell people though. It's not about how much you can make top line revenue. It's about how much you can keep and it's also about what you want, the lifestyle you want to live. And I don't want buy boats and live in mansions. I don't, I never have that intention. I wanna enjoy my life. I wanna love my kids.

I want to have a, a house that I love to live in and I wanna build a business with my friends and. That was the goal from the beginning. So I can do that based off of a 4 million budget. No problem. And that's what our goal is gonna continue to be, probably is four to 5 million. If I spike a year and have a hailstorm come into town, hey, I'll go for it.

But, um, I think it's really important for new business owners to understand what your goals are and my goals are, are very clearly kind of ingrained in my mind

[00:31:36] Mike: of a number. Yeah, I like that. Yeah. How important was it to, to parlay an effective Google strategy? In the beginning of your business with the brand that you created, Very,

[00:31:47] Ben: very important.

People buy roofing St. Okay? Just think about, think this. Think about this with me guys. If you are someone who moves into a new city, let's say you're from Connecticut and you move to New York, okay? You're in New York City now, or you're in New York, you don't know any roofers. Mm-hmm. , You've never networked with a roofer.

Where are you going to go to find one?

[00:32:09] Mike: 90 ask gs.com. .

[00:32:11] Ben: Yeah. Ask Jesus. Correct. 99.999% of the time you're gonna go to Google and type in roofers near me, roof replacement near me. Uh, you see what I'm saying? Mm-hmm. . It's just, it's like commonplace now, guys, that's where Bill go. So you wanna focus on Google number one, two, and three for your online strategy.

Obviously bill a website that ranks highly on there. And then brand, Well, I call it kind of a, uh, if you think about this, Mike, this is gonna be good. Um, kind of a land, air, and. Type branding method. Okay. So land would be truck wraps? Yeah. Okay. Yard signs. Yeah. Yeah. Truck wraps. Yard signs. If you wanna get a retail space.

Get a retail space. Nike Prestos. That's exactly right. Nike, Prestos. Yeah. Uh, the c uh, is gonna be more of like your internet or No, wait. I forget this air, Air is gonna be your internet strategy, so anything in the ether, uh, your internet stuff, and then your C is gonna be content creation, the letter C.

[00:33:07] Mike: Woo.

You like that? Yeah. Good.

[00:33:10] Ben: That's good. Content creation is gonna be your XFactor, so if you have those three things, that's gonna make up for a very valuable brand. So Land, Air, Sea.

[00:33:20] Mike: That's interesting. So let's talk about content. Let's do it as we sit here and shoot content. Yes, it's important. Yep. But it's a challenge.

A

[00:33:33] Ben: lot of time. It's a

lot

[00:33:35] Mike: of time. How have you effectively cap up your, the volume of the content that you've put? From day one to now, how has that changed? Yeah, what kind of shortcuts? I'm not a big fan of shortcuts cuz they're usually at the expense of something else, quality or something. But there are workarounds that can make you more efficient.

Where you don't lose something. So let's talk about how you've managed to do that, cuz may I think there's a lot to be learned. If you can drop

[00:34:04] Ben: some nuggets, if you're willing. Sure. Of course. I network with the local college, local university, and I have two interns. Shout out to Izzy and Morgan. They handle all our social media now.

They work one day a week, One day every Friday. And the summertime. Izzy works for me full. Mm, pumping out content all the time to try to future plan for content creation. And so that's our plan is really to, we hired somebody specifically to do it. Um, interns are hungry for experience and they're typically pretty cheap labor.

We pay 'em $15 an hour and they're worth every penny of it. Um, cuz they, they work ex exceptionally hard. So, but in exchange for, I'm giving them real life experience. They can give them views, potentially people purchasing things from us they can put on their resume to get real jobs. Yeah. After they graduate, so, Oh yeah.

It's a win-win.

[00:34:50] Mike: Yeah. And that's, I mean, it's genius. I shot content about six months ago. I just put the per first clip of it out about two weeks ago, , uh, and I was at an Airbnb in pi. and you have a lot of people that struggle with the content side of things and whether it's, you know, getting viable video or, or nice project like in production shoots and things like that.

And I'm like you, whenever you're trying to come up with a solution, there's always that problem and like, who can help solve that problem? It's the same thing that you're trying to convince your homeowners of when it's like, Hey, buy roof from us. Right? Of course. So there's a lot of different things you can do to cure that, that woe of content creation.

If you think about your local communities and the colleges that are within. I can tell you from personal experience and many other college grads can tell you the same thing. One of the biggest challenges that they have when they get outta college, they're just completely inundated with debt. Right? So that's very nerve wracking and no experience.

Dude, a four year degree now is what A G E D was 25 years ago. I mean, it doesn't separate you from the pack and they don't have any real world experience skillsets. Yeah. It's like, okay. , you've got a 3.7, 3.8 and you were on the Dean's list. But so do the other 47 people that apply for this position.

Correct. What have you done? Right. So now if they can create a portfolio of work as far as demonstrating what they, in practical terms, not just in theory what they've done. Yeah. That's incredibly valuable. So if you reach out to a local college of any kind, you can Google Colleges near me. Go to the staff pages, and it's usually gonna be the arts department.

[00:36:23] Ben: Is is, uh, I, I, I, I target marketing

[00:36:25] Mike: students. Marketing, Yeah. Yeah. So, well for, well, for the video side that we were just talking about, editing specifically arts. Yes. But, um, marketing, if they have a marketing department, like 100%, yes. And just, you could email any one of those teachers that are listed on the faculty page or emails usually right there.

They have a direct phone number. And just explain to them like, we're looking for someone to help with this. Mm-hmm. , we wanna look to help people, kids in the community first. And we know the struggle that they face post-graduation. So we think this would be a really good fit and we would love to bring somebody on as part of our team, whether, whether it be an internship.

Or a lot of the times these professors have relationships with students after they graduate. Yes. Right. So maybe it's something where you're looking for somebody full time and they can facilitate that. It's just a form of networking that I think a lot of people miss out on. And there's a ton of talent out there.

There is to be had.

[00:37:18] Ben: I think that's a, that's kind of a second level solution. I started out doing all the content myself. Mm-hmm. , to kinda answer your question, if, if I was talking to a new roofer right now that just started three months ago, do not overthink your content. Get on your phone and post, just post.

Just see what happens and you'll see how valuable it is. I appreciate guys who are not creative, who, who don't consider themselves creative. They probably are, but they don't consider themselves to be, They're not well spoken. They don't wanna get on camera. You guys, people want to hear from you. They do.

Mm-hmm. , regardless of what you think people want to hear from you. So you don't even have to go as far as hiring an intern in the beginning. Do your content yourself and just post a small video of yourself once a day, a picture of your staff, once a day, a picture of your office, a picture, your truck. Do something that creates content for your business because if you're not, um, you know, nobody will know who you are.

If you don't put yourself out

[00:38:11] Mike: there, that's a really good point. And as much as it's great to have like cinematic quality video, Yeah. There's something to be said about the authenticity of raw fucking sitting there on an iPhone up on a roof, talking about what neighborhood in what it looks like from the bird's eye view.

Yes. And I've seen like post ads, et cetera, get more engagement on those. Selfie videos, Right? As opposed to somebody that can spend five grand highly having a crew out to shoot an entire production.

[00:38:39] Ben: Right. I've done that. I've done highly produced videos. Uh, they didn't cost me a bunch of money, but cost me a bunch of time, a bunch of time that like nobody saw.

I was like, if I post a video of me in a tire truck talking to smack about something that I don't like calling somebody a Turkey, it gets a ton of play. So like why not do that more? Right. Of just like being real and being human. And I think people relate to being human. Yeah. We're all human, right? Oh yeah.

As opposed to the highly processed version of ourselves.

[00:39:06] Mike: Sure. Yeah. So in social strategy, one of the things are like create a series. So you've got an interesting series that you said you, you've started recently. Yep. Let's, let's, What is it called? Why is it called that? And.

[00:39:18] Ben: It's called Tiger or Turkey.

Okay. Let me explain something to you guys. Okay. Do you know what the percentage of what you remember through a talk or through a presentation of information to yourself, how much, what percentage of the data that's presented to you? Do you remember? 23%. 15. The 1580 5% of what you're hearing right now through this video, you will.

You will take away 15%.

[00:39:44] Mike: That's why we'll follow up with a shit ton of YouTube shorts and Facebook

[00:39:47] Ben: reels. Precisely. So smaller content is good. Mm-hmm. , but when you categorize something as something else, sneak, sneak peak. This is gonna be what my talk in Vegas is gonna be about. When you categorize something as something else, it's called, uh, like labeling.

When you label something, people remember it a lot

[00:40:06] Mike: faster. What's the percentage on it?

[00:40:08] Ben: I don't know. I think it's something like on 30 or 40 when you tell stories. Storytelling, I think has a, a remembrance rate of like 30 to 40% versus just fact telling what you're 15. So think with me if I call something a tiger versus a Turkey, you'll remember that Cause it's so bizarre.

You'll be like, What did he say? And you might see a tiger at the zoo and you'll be like, What was that one guy who talked about the one thing that one time it's me. It's recalling in your brain, right? If I call somebody a Turkey and you sit down for Thanksgiving and eat a Turkey leg, you're gonna be like that, that Turkey.

He, he, It's labeling. Who is the best at doing this? Donald Trump. What

[00:40:46] Mike: is Nancy Pelosi's? I don't know. Politics. You don't know that he

[00:40:51] Ben: labels everybody a certain name. I probably shouldn't be talking about like this politics, but he labels people certain things like, like, uh, uh, Lion, Ted Lion, Ted Cruz. That was a big thing.

Like Sleepy Joe Biden. He labels people's these things and it catches on and people will remember that and they actually will identify that person by that moniker. Hmm. Uh, it's kind of like a nickname that you got when you were a kid that nobody remember that, that everybody remember. .

[00:41:14] Mike: Yeah. Mine was watermelon head.

Did people actually call you that? Oh yeah. So the head that you see on my shoulders now was on again. It's like, you know, I had to grow into it. Yep. I still have a big head. Yep. But, uh, you know, my body was one third the size. Yes. And I was just like a bobble head, right? Yes. So, so melon head for short, One melon head.

[00:41:32] Ben: Fun fact. It's the same thing with your brand. Mike Ascend. You have a rocket ship. Mm-hmm. , there's so many different things like the Mission Control podcast, you can co-brand along with your brand. Yeah. Mm-hmm. , if your company name was Stern's Marketing, you can't do that. Right. There's nothing you can do to co-brand Stern's marketing except for something that's personal to you.

Ascend. A rocket ship is an object that's universal to everyone, and you can brand it across anything. Mission Control podcast, we're both wearing spacesuits. Are you guys getting this? I do tiger stripe stuff and I call my roofing, Ferocious Roofing. Yeah. Tiger Den Podcast, right? Untamed Energy. For my solar side of the business, it's the same thing.

You can co-brand so many different things when it's an objective object versus your company name being your last

[00:42:19] Mike: name. Yeah. That utility is a lot of fun to play. Utility. That's a good word. Utility. Yes. Yeah, I like that a lot. So let's talk about the solar. What made you get into solar Roofing was going, well, You guys had significant growth from your first four months, your next full year.

Yeah. And all of a sudden, all right, we're not satiated. We're gonna go into solar. Something brand new to. It

[00:42:40] Ben: wasn't brand new to me. Uh, me and another employee, Chris Olson, we've both been in the solar industry since like 2017. Oh. So it's been a few years. Uh, the state of Illinois has a very large state incentive to, uh, its homeowners in Illinois.

So, um, it's a very popular product where we are in Chicago. So that's why I started it as the, um, the growth of the industry.

[00:43:02] Mike: Is that the S R

[00:43:03] Ben: S R? Uh, yeah. State renewable energy Credit. Still

[00:43:08] Mike: trap. Still trap, still trap, . What's one piece of advice that you would give overall to, to a new roofing company? If we've discussed a ton, right?

And there's a lot more to be discussed at some future points, but if you, you know, gun to your head, you had one thing that you could give somebody that's saying, You know what, I'm taking the leap and I'm gonna open my own roofing business tomorrow. What's one piece of advice?

[00:43:28] Ben: Brand it right? The first.

Take your time in branding your company. Do not start something called Jones Roofing and then six months later have to change it. Think long and hard before you name your company. It's the biggest decision you'll make. Okay? Because that utility that we just talked about doesn't come back. Uh, if you create it from the beginning, you'll see exponential growth because people will remember your brand easier.

[00:43:53] Mike: What's one piece of advice of something they absolutely should not do? or to avoid in the early stages of starting the roofing business.

[00:44:02] Ben: Oh, another thing you have to do is wrap your truck for sure. Wrap your truck. Day one. Don't wait. Day one,

[00:44:07] Mike: wrap your truck. Try to work it out with your manufacturer. Yes.

To where they'll help you. You'll pay for it. It's called co-op

[00:44:11] Ben: advertising. Co-op advertising. They will pay for it. What do you do? Not do? Um, let me think here. Be careful and count your Penn. I think I was a little bit too liberal in the beginning of spending money. Um, it worked out in the long term cause we're, we survived and we're doing well now.

But, uh, I think I spent too much money on stuff that did not matter in the beginning.

[00:44:31] Mike: What are some of those things?

[00:44:33] Ben: Um, software

[00:44:36] Mike: stuff that I

[00:44:37] Ben: didn't need. I, I bought some stuff that just I used one time and spend a lot of money. It's just silly. Uh, if you talk to a roofing, uh, company who's successful, ask 'em what software they use and do it the first time and just do it that.

I think I bought a couple CRMs that didn't work out, and then ultimately moved to ACU Links where I'm at now.

[00:44:55] Mike: How do you like ACU links? I love it. Yeah, so utilize resources around you. I would also say be while I'm a big proponent of networking Yes. And, and gaining from other people's history. , right?

Because if I can cut down my learning curve, by virtue of yes, talking to somebody who's been there and done that, saves time, saves money, it's a really good thing, right? Be cautious as well of who you're taking advice from. I think that's equally important, right? Yes. Um, Be resourceful, but also be cautious.

Everybody sells the best version of themselves and like people like to feel like their opinion matters and that they're professional on the, on subject matter A, B, or C. And there are a lot of people that are, but there's a lot more people that aren't. Mm-hmm. . And if you take advice from the wrong people, it can land you in a really shitty spot.

Honestly, man,

[00:45:49] Ben: I've, I've learned probably more than anyone, uh, more than anyone personally, I've learned through. It's just YouTubeing. I, I listen to various different opinions of people in the roofing industry, and we'll take bits and pieces from everybody. I think everybody's got something to offer a piece of truth, but YouTube and just watch videos when you're up at night, it's very valuable to watch content and consume and then implement your business.

[00:46:13] Mike: That's a really good point. Yeah. Yeah. A lot of people on YouTube. This is gonna be on YouTube for that reason. Mm-hmm. , right? So there's a, there's a ton of opportunity. What questions do you have for me, Ben?

[00:46:28] Ben: We, you like leaving it wing soon? Uh, it's 1225. We've

[00:46:33] Mike: got Mrs. Sterns going to pick them up. Did you really?

At 1230. Let's the kind of guy, let's go. Shout out to Lacey.

[00:46:39] Ben: Let's go wing nuts. Um,

[00:46:43] Mike: I'm excited. I've never, I'm in Buffalo. There's newer place called Wing Knots. They were on bar stool. Ben wants to have his buffalo wings for the first time. We'll follow up with a piece of content on that. We're gonna get him to rate down.

Yeah. One bite. Everyone knows the rule. Is that, is that, Can't say that. Yeah, it's trademark. You'll get, Everybody knows the rules with a z. No, Can't say it. Trademarked. One taste.

[00:47:02] Ben: Nope. Blast off with these wings in your.

[00:47:08] Mike: So we'll make sure that there's a link to buyer stool in citing their, their, their turn of phrase there. Yeah.

[00:47:14] Ben: Um, uh, yeah. Question for you, Mike. I'd say, um, what's the biggest thing you've learned about the roofing industry having worked with roofers for your career here?

[00:47:27] Mike: The need for systems and processes.

Hmm. Expand. Yeah. So, and you can, you can relate this to like lead intake. You can relate this to production, post production, marketing, advertising, sales. Like it doesn't matter. The fact of the matter is like if you are running a business, You could have the best of intentions, but if you don't have a clearly defined path with clearly set expectations for your team members and you just expect them to do what's in your head and what you've told them, yeah, that shit's not gonna get done.

I've done that before. It doesn't work. It doesn't work. No, never works. And there might be an exception, but I haven't seen it. No. Right. So, Right. Um, I think that's, that's one of the biggest things is like, get the shit out of your head, right? Yes. Cause if you start running your own business, you've got all these answers and it's great and you're doing well, and then you start hiring people and then you know, you, there's an expectation that they're gonna do A, B, C, D, E, F.

You gotta put it on paper. You gotta create a system of how you

[00:48:30] Ben: want these things to happen. Real quick, breaking news. The New York Giants are beating the Green Bay Packers 27 to 22 right now. Hot down. What

[00:48:37] Mike: is happening? Wild. . So yes, I agree with

[00:48:41] Ben: process Packers clearly didn't have their process down. Hey, listen

[00:48:45] Mike: bro, Danny Dimes out there doing this thing.

Whoa. So, you know, the follow up to that of the systems and processes is effective management. Stay with us, Ben. Sorry. The follow up to that is the effect of management of those systems and processes. Yes. So once you get the systems and processes in, . It's not some, just like your crew, right? Like you don't bring a crew in, have them do jobs, and then just tell 'em where to be and never check the job, right?

Yeah. Like you have to manage them. It's your job. Yeah. As a leader to manage or to delegate somebody else. To manage your team members to make sure things are gonna be done correctly. Trust, but verify. I

[00:49:25] Ben: would assume that most people watching this or that starting their businesses are roofers. And they would categorize themselves as roofers.

Mm-hmm. , I am not a roofer, guys. I'm an entrepreneur. I want to, if I could just give you a visual, I want to build a machine and I wanna be the guy just fixing the machine that breaks down. What I am not is a guy who goes out and does the roofing. That's not what you are anymore. If you open up a business, you are not a roofer anymore.

You're an entrepreneur. Mm. It's a big jump in your mindset to say, I'm not pounding the hammer to nail. And even if you are pounding the hammer to nail, you have a lot more responsibility now with taxes, with insurance, with marketing, with you. Name it. You are not a roofer anymore. You're an entrepreneur.

That's a really good point.

[00:50:12] Mike: Come on bro. Come on. Bring in the heat. That's good. He's just trying to help you out. Take off.

[00:50:18] Ben: Define yourself as an entrepreneur cause that's what you are, and it will change your mindset to actually be the person. Behind the scenes, like Mike is saying, build the process or the machine.

Mm-hmm. , and then be the one holding people accountable to that process. Hmm.

[00:50:33] Mike: That's what a leader does. Give me a tough question.

You're 34 right now? I'm 34 right now

[00:50:44] Ben: in at 40. Do you still see yourself running this company in this way, or do you see future changes that are going to. That are going to take it to a different direction.

[00:50:59] Mike: Mm. I like that loaded question. I like that. That's a question. Yeah. There will be changes, right? I think it's, I think in business you have to embrace change. You have to, because if not, somebody else will and you'll become irrelevant sooner than later. Yeah. And especially in your

[00:51:14] Ben: space. Yes, yes. Yours is far more technologically savvy than mine.

[00:51:18] Mike: 100%. And I do, I lean into change every chance I can get as far as like updating our, our SOPs as far as implementing new softwares and just consistently being able to provide the best results as a result of staying up to up to task. Yes. The extent and the magnitude of those changes. They vary all the time and, and I'm sure they will over the next six years.

Uh, but as far as like our core principles and what we do, like I, that's not going to change. So we're never going to be the company that you call and you want, you know, us to slap together a website and you wanna spend, you know, a few hundred bucks a month on marketing. It's just not us. And there's a lot of agencies out there that, that will help you with that.

And that's. But like, the way that I, the way that I tell people is like, what we do is we're, we're custom home builders, right? Like, think about the website side. We build custom homes. Mm-hmm. . And we're always gonna be custom home builders, right? We're gonna have these blueprints, they're gonna be modified, or we're gonna create new blueprints, and then we're gonna have GCs facilitating the entire process and make sure that home comes out exactly how you want it.

Everything to the tea, every nook and cranny is just how you. so that that kitchen that your wife's always wanted, it's exactly how we drew it up. And it's beautiful and people are impressed. They walk into your house, they're like, Holy shit dude, who built this thing? Yes. Right? Like, that's so important.

That's what I want for our customers. When prospects come to their website, that's the feeling that I want. Yes. Right. And I think it's really important cuz that trust factor that's not apparent with most homeowners when it relates to contractors. Yep. That first impression when they land on that site.

It's really, really important. Super important. So like that's never gonna go away. Yeah. We're never gonna be the, the, the cheapest company that offers cheap services because in my mind, like the reality of the situation is people, I have very healthy ambitions with their business and with those healthy ambitions usually comes a pretty ambitious marketing spend, an advertising spend to actualize those dreams that you have.

Yes.

[00:53:23] Ben: Yeah. You're working in the digital real estate space. Mm-hmm. , you're a digital home builder. I like that analogy. Yeah, that's good. Thank you. I it. But in the beginning of your business, Mike, you had to start somewhere. You were not charging what you do now back then. Sure. It's the same thing with roofing.

I am not charging now what I did back then. There's a place to start and you have to start somewhere and get on the books with somebody so you can start building a reputation as a, as a trustworthy worthy individual. So don't be so concerned about pricing and profit margins at the very beginning, in my opinion.

Mm-hmm. , I think you need to get reputation over everything. And start by becoming really good at your craft. Your craft is building websites. My craft is providing amazing customer experience. So don't be so caught up in making money year one. You might lose money. That's okay. If you've built a reputation as a trustworthy contractor, you're on the right path.

[00:54:14] Mike: Mm, I like that. Yeah. And we'll leave y'all with that, ladies and gentlemen, Ben Tiger. My feet up after that, dude. . Look at those legs. See you guys. You need some sun? Hey, we appreciate you guys tuning. Ben. Thanks for coming. We're about to take off. We're going to the moon, baby. It's a moon. All right. Woo.

Google Ads: How to Lower the Cost Per Lead for Your Roofing Company w/Tim Brown of Hook Agency 🚀

On this episode, Mike has Tim Brown of Hook Agency on the show!

Tim & Mike deep dive into how you can lower the cost of leads for your company. They go into details on how you can also optimize your reach with Google ads, website optimization, keywords, structured sales funnels, and customer psychology.

Contact us!

[email protected]

Let's Connect! ==== ==== ==== Website: https://bit.ly/3NQXXKK Facebook: https://bit.ly/3xH8VaT Linkedin: https://bit.ly/3RWTSyr ==== ==== ====

ep 4

[00:00:00] Tim: The game is changing. Insurance companies are probably gonna tighten up around the, like replace everything, and this is one way to circumnavigate that and still be profitable.

[00:00:11] Mike: A lot of people would be surprised at how many people don't, not only lead with this, but bring it up. Accessibility and options are two huge components of making a decision when you're making a purchase, especially one that you're spending thousands and thousands

[00:00:24] Tim: of dollars.

If you want the shittiest leads of all time, don't address price on your website.

[00:00:37] Mike: Number four, Qua, or ladies and gentlemen, welcome back the Mission Control Podcast on Mike Stearns with the Sun Digital Agency. Say, we got Tim Brown, the man, the myth, the legend with hook. Tim Brown and the crowd goes wild. This is, uh, What's up

[00:00:55] Tim: Tim? What is it? When they, when the, I'm on TikTok and there's somebody like playing with the mic and they do asmr.

[00:01:02] Mike: Oh, I'm still on MySpace, so I have no idea what the TikTok is. Oh, perfect. Yeah, so it's a

[00:01:06] Tim: completely ASMR

[00:01:07] Mike: episode. . So Tim, we both have a lot of clients that run effective Google ad campaigns. Um, there's a lot more people outside of just working with us that run ad campaign. Today I want to talk about what can we do and what can other people do to get cost per leads that are less and less expensive, right?

Mm-hmm. , everyone's paying attention to what they're spending and what the cost per acquisition of that lead is and should be. So let's talk about a few of the things that people can do.

[00:01:38] Tim: Yeah. Is there ever start with repairs?

[00:01:41] Mike: Oh, I think, Oh, .

[00:01:43] Tim: Oh, number one, Repairs. Okay. So, I think everyone thinks about repairs, um, differently all over the country.

We've got people that don't wanna offer them at all. We've got people that don't understand how good it is for your marketing to offer repairs. Mm-hmm. , and we, I'm seeing a lot of smart roofers offer basically enhanced, enhanced repairs right now with a roof rejuvenation, ugly roof is one option for. . What I like about it is if you, and I just talked to another one of my clients today that's offering roof repair and they're offering ugly roof, which is a roof rejuvenation product and they're super excited about it.

What what happens is you're taking that lower threshold of like a $750 repair and pushing it up to like 3000 plus. So a much more profitable repair job requires two people per day. Ugly Roof doesn't sell like franchises, so they literally only work through roofing companies because they also want them to make tweaks on the actual roof itself.

Like there, there's, it's not just you're spraying this thing that increases the life of the shingle and maybe looks at, makes it look nicer cuz they also do a wash. It's also, you need to get up there and make any other, like actual, um, repairs. Any specific things that need to be, um, changed that, that aren't.

Visual, um, that might cause leaks. So it's in addition to other things you're already doing on repairs, but it's a way to increase the perceived value cuz marketing is all about perceived value, not just value. Mm-hmm. perceived value is a clean roof that looks nice, maybe looks refreshed, rejuvenated, if you will.

And it's a funny word, rejuvenation, but nonetheless, that's a very good one to decrease your costly, because if you. Offer that then you don't have to get. What I see is clients trying to get really vigorous about removing any keywords that might attract repairs, and if you remove all the keywords or like, Please stop giving me repairs, if you get really intense about that, yes, you can try First of all, It's just gonna make it a lot more expensive.

All your ad cost is gonna go up and up and up then. And who? Googles roof replacement, Full roof replacement.

[00:04:15] Mike: Yeah, that's a good point. Tim, what do you see as far as the highest volume keyword search? Typically within your ad campaigns, usually

[00:04:23] Tim: the most general, so like roofer, roofers, roofer, roofing contractor, local roofer best.

Mm-hmm. , best local roofer, roofer, all kinds of things. Basic, basic keywords. And they, they, they're not, , they're not defining that because they don't know. They don't know if they wanna repair. They, they probably think on average that they do wanna repair, but they don't know yet. They're just trying to get an assessment to be able to like, hopefully the lowest cost possible thing, which obviously we don't want 'em to get the, you know, I don't want you to, I'm not telling you to offer $250 repairs.

I'm telling you to offer higher price, but not $15,000.

[00:05:04] Mike: Option. Yeah. I would love to do like market research of some sort of study to see, to figure out in the mind of a homeowner how many people that really, and there's really no way to do this, but if you have somebody who has a 25 year old roof or 20 year old roof, right?

And they just know that it's gotta be replaced, how many of those people are still searching for repair, right? Because people want to spend as little as possible. in that instance cuz they know it's such a high ticket item. Right. Most, we get a lot of searches like cost of roof replacement. Mm-hmm. , we get a lot of those.

And so people are inquisitive as to what it's going to take and guess what numbers they're seeing when they Google roof replacement cost. They're pretty high. It's not a couple bucks. Right. Um, so I think, uh, it, it's very important to absolutely put yourself in the, throw your hat in the ring, so to speak when it comes to repairs.

And, and Tim makes a great point. A lot of the times we can't discern from the marketing agency side what somebody who's looking for a roofer wants, right? It could be a real estate agent looking for one of those free inspections that we know that all of our clients love and just yearn for, right? It could be that, you know, they could be, they could be on the board of an HOA and they could have 50 different buildings that they need roofs.

Or guess what? You know what they could say? I noticed that, uh, my flashing isn't snug and I need somebody to come throw some tar on it or something, right? Like, who knows? But with that being said, you're gonna take the good with the bad as well. So not only if you're targeting repairs where you get a lower cost per lead, but if you're targeting those general keywords, you're gonna have the opportunities to take swings at those big jobs.

Me speaking from experience, I would say 10% at least. Of roof repair leads turn into a replacement on the spot. If I had a gun to my head, that's the number I'm going with. At least 10%. One in 10 of people that called and scheduled for a repair were sold a replacement. I think I'm gonna dig into that.

What would, What would you say if you had to guess 10 based off of your experiences?

[00:07:11] Tim: I don't know. I don't think I have that data, but if I, I would guess higher. . I mean, well, I work with a lot of roofers that like to flip those . I work with the roofs that like to flip those into replacements, and I don't hate it.

Especially if they can use insurance. If insurance, if there's something available for 'em to use. I mean, I encourage it. I just. Also believe a repair option makes it also makes you more credible. So besides the fact that it decreases your cost per lead, if you have that option, if you show them two things, this, this wouldn't be perfectly ideal, but if we could refresh the look of your roof for 3,500 and we could do a replacement for 15,000, like you have these two options.

This one's not ideal, but we could offer it to you. How much more credible does it make this item look? Right? And if they're both, this is the clincher. What if they're both the same? O because if you know your numbers and you're looking at that re that repair and one of 'em requires a full giant squad and one of 'em requires two guys with a hose.

And some chemicals. Some chemicals. We got profit. Yeah, we got profits, sir. So like basically there's, just knowing your numbers will, maybe if you got this down, like what could your profit. Repair with a rejuvenation option. You might want to offer that more often and, and this is, people are gonna hate this, but it's true.

The insurance company's gonna probably like that. Like, and I know that we're like at sometimes roofers, it's, we're at odds with insurance companies. But at the end of the day, if you have that option, it's, in a way, it's a legitimizing thing too. And I think. , I think just for the fact that insurance companies will like it, I do think that the industry is gonna go a little bit more of that route.

Like, you know what I mean? Like the, the insurance agents, agencies are a little bit of a magnet for the industry. It pushes whatever they're doing, whether it's in reaction, in a negative reaction to what the insurance agencies are doing, or, or, uh, or roofers that want to do more of what the insurance agencies want because they.

Um, to be in a good place with them. The industry's gonna go a little bit more, you know, in this direction. I think because insurance agencies are, are going to want more repairs in the next I This is what I'm hearing. I don't even know. I hear, I, I, I don't know why, but I hear roofers tight about this. The, the age the game is changing.

Insurance companies are probably gonna tighten. around the like replace everything thing. And this is one way to circumnavigate that and still be profitable.

[00:10:07] Mike: So what's the average ticket on a rejuvenation? You said 3,500 bucks.

[00:10:12] Tim: Basically you can offer I think from like 35, like 3000 to 4,500. Like there.

It's not that like

[00:10:20] Mike: we're gonna have to get bro on one of these now in price,

[00:10:22] Tim: but you could essentially make it profitable. What's

[00:10:23] Mike: that? We're gonna have to get bro on one of these. Yeah, no,

[00:10:27] Tim: I would be a great guest cuz they're very smart and they, they're doing it with mh i mm-hmm. . And I just see, I see a lot of very smart roofers, like off the top, Dreamworks, you and I both love those guys.

Like the, um, Andy's roofing, like used to roofing, like people that I like look at and I'm like, damn, they know what they're doing. They know their numbers, they're tight, they're smart. I see those people adding this, layering this on.

[00:10:58] Mike: Yeah. You know, it's, it's kind of like, you know, commercial roof coatings where maybe it's less functional as far as adding lifetime to the roof, which I'm not educated enough in the rejuvenation side to, to know that.

But even, you know, it's the aesthetic of it. Right? Um, and the ticket. Right. So if you could have another tool in the bag, You know what? For eight, 1200 bucks, let's say, or 800 bucks, we can, you know, do X, Y, and Z to repair your roof, but it still kind of looks like shit. We can make it look kind of brand new and it's only gonna cost you another three brand.

Yeah. People want that curb appeal as a homeowner, right? Yeah. That's why people get their home, their vinyl siding power wash, right? Because it starts to look like shit and it kills the appeal of their home.

[00:11:43] Tim: And if you just wash it, like the, what is it? Soft wash it, Dr. It can dry out the shingle, especially if you did that

[00:11:51] Mike: often.

Yeah, it might. Um, I may or may not have had some, you know, blog content written about, you know, the, these types of things. . Yeah.

[00:12:00] Tim: Dry out that, Dry out that roof. All right. Let's get to number two. What else can you do to lower your cost per lead?

[00:12:07] Mike: So you had mentioned Dreamworks, right? Charlie and Steven, Shout out to the guys over at Dreamworks Roofing and.

Yeah. Um, so we, I saw that you did a, like a roof calculator for them, right? Yes. So what exactly does that entail on their site?

[00:12:25] Tim: Yeah, so for us, part of it is to, you know, price. Price is the big objection for everybody. And so we avoid it in our marketing, but we have to address it in our sales. So what they were trying to do with, and this is, they're really the masterminds of this calculator, and I think like anything you can do to address the price objections sooner in your marketing is a smart thing.

They also send it to people that are already in their. to get rid of tire kickers. Mm-hmm. . So it's one of those things where if you get it down here are the levers that affect price. You let them play with that calculator. You make it easy enough to use. I think a calculator on your roofing website will help your business get rid of tire kickers, and it will allow people to understand the mechanics of what things positively or negatively affect price.

Mm-hmm. and if you allow people to do. one, you're letting them go further down the sales funnel than your competitors are. Mm-hmm. , right? Cause your, your competitors are saying, All right, I know you're up here on the sales funnel. Let's, let's try to make a sales funnel. I know you're way up here on the sales funnel, but it's a nice sales

[00:13:39] Mike: funnel.

What's that? That's a nice sales funnel.

[00:13:43] Tim: Thank you. I'm trying. If you let 'em go up here, you say, All right, you have to like convert. , don't I wanna talk to you? They don't. First of all, they don't want to talk to you. Yeah. Like homeowners. My wife wants to press a button in the roof to go on. Like that's what she wants.

She doesn't wanna talk to a salesperson because some of 'em are weird and some of 'em are pushy and some of 'em are whatever, right? Mm-hmm. . So the point is, is like if the more you can let 'em go down the sales funnel on their own without having to talk to a human being, that's the modern expectation.

And the expectation is increas. For how far they want to go down the sales funnel before talking to a person. They expect that, so if they don't get it from your website, they're gonna get it from Angie or somebody else who's got this. You know, the ridiculous pricing calculator or like some kind of range blog post that's just so far off, just so they can get these bad leads with low expecta, that weird expectations into their funnel.

[00:14:47] Mike: Yeah. Or one of these other weird aggregate sites that you've probably never heard of that kind of pop up where it's like, okay. Once you put in all the information right now, give us all your information. Mm-hmm. and now you've got five contractors calling you similar to like, you know, one of these big lead aggregators.

And there's a good chance that you're not one of those five, right? Unless you're paying them a subscription. So why not just do it yourself? Um, I know from, from my experience, we developed a, a web-based instant roof quote app about a year and a half ago. And we've seen a lot of success as far as converting searches.

Cuz if you think about. , the shitty millennials like myself, and then the Gen Z that are soon to come are gonna be home buyers. We're already home buyers, right? And then the Gen Z's gonna come in down the, They're coming down the pipe. So it's like immediate gratification is real and the need to adjust. So that you're not on the wrong side of the creative destruction cycle is imminent, right?

Mm-hmm. . And it's only be gonna become more and more important. So you know when someone's looking for the cost of a roof or local roofing company and they see the fact on like a headline on Google, like how can we be different? Like how? How can our copy stand out? And it's like number one roofer here, best rated roofer here.

Like those things are good. We use copy like that as well. But we also use things like in 30 seconds or less, get a roof replacement. and that shit works, right? , like people click on it, um, and they convert because you start walking them down the path of giving 'em what they want. And you know, like you said, the levers that we pull as far as how can we give them somewhat accurate pricing, Okay.

So it, it pings their roof to have an understanding of the size. What is the slope factor? A homeowner doesn't know what a 4 12, 8 12, 12 12 pitch a factor is, right? And they don't give a shit. But we allow them to pick a picture, which represents how steep that roof is. What does your roof, you know, look most closely like?

Um, we ask them qualifying questions as far as like, are using insurance. You want to use financing? We'll get some more of that in a minute. I see you lighten up over there. Right? So then they get their price for the roof. and it's one of two things. Either you get them outta your funnel and it was gonna be dead time that your sales team invested, or the sticker shock is outta the way.

And guess what? You've got all the qualifying information, you know, the price that they gave them and that they're okay with meeting with you. It's your deal to lose at that point. Right. So we found to be very helpful.

[00:17:14] Tim: I, we almost had a little debate on the stage of one industry, one model that comes, uh, Final kind of q and a session.

Mm-hmm. at in Minneapolis because I said, you know, if you don't, if you want the, the shittiest leads of all time, don't address price on your website. If you want those, if you want the worst leads that are tire kickers, if you really love those, don't ever address price . and somebody else is like, absolutely not.

You cannot do like basically somebody disagreed with me. I like a little creative disagreement, but we do it on our site. We address price, and I believe it's, it's helps. It helps a lot because once you get, and it's really where are you at in your business? If you're outta the spot where you don't have the leads, you don't have 10 leads per week, don't do this.

Not. because you just need to crank that thing open and you just need to get more leads. Yep. But once you get to a certain point and you've got a good chunk of leads flowing in, you can start to like decrease the amount of time that your salespeople spend with shitty. And it, it does depend. Do you have like five sales people that are sitting around then maybe you don't actually want to right address price just yet, but if you, if you have less sales people, you can increase the, the filter.

Filtering is a function of marketing. Marketing should filter a little bit. Yes. And that's, it's tough because we want lower cost per lead.

[00:18:52] Mike: Right. But it's an efficiency thing. Right. And I think a lot of people overlook the, the value of, you know, having five sales reps run 10 appointments a week. , let's say 10 wasteful appointments that were never gonna be actual buying opportunities that could have been hedged by qualifying them in some capacity.

Even asking vetting questions to that customer when they're calling in. Mm-hmm. to get a good understanding of if it's gonna be a good fit for them, um, would be a step in the right direction. So let's move on to financing. How can financing and offering financing play into like a Google ad strategy? ,

[00:19:29] Tim: you can lead with the monthly number instead of the full roof replacement.

Actually, most people don't ever put anything about their full roof replacement ranges or anything like that in Google ads, cuz they don't want them to. But it could be a difference maker if you actually include numbers for a monthly payment where monthly payments might be a, a common number or where it starts.

I believe financing and even just saying you offer financing on average will really help, uh, increase the amount of results that you get from your Google Ads campaign and, you know, Facebook ads campaign. But I, I was gonna say, I might even argue that, like if I was looking at Facebook ad leads versus.

Versus door knocking. I would almost rather have my guys do door knocking than go out to Facebook leads.

[00:20:24] Mike: Oh, Tim .

[00:20:28] Tim: Oh man. You know, you can cut that if you hate it. . Um,

[00:20:33] Mike: so sell, so sell the monthly payment, right? Yeah. And this is tried and true. Let me list it. Yeah. Yes. And this is an earth shattering, like if you go sit down in a car dealer,

My truck. I got a Sierra, right? And it was like $60,000 or something. And guess what? That sales rep didn't do. He didn't inundate me and bring to my attention every step of the way. The fact that it was gonna cost me $60,000 to leave with this truck, right? He told me that he beat me up about the fact or beat into me that it was going to be $704 a month, right?

Mm-hmm. . Cause that's much more comfortable, right? It's like, what kind of

[00:21:13] Tim: part you got, bro? I gotta, I got a Sierra. What is, is that a is a truck?

[00:21:19] Mike: Yeah. GMC

[00:21:20] Tim: Sierra. What do you need a truck for, bro? This guy's, this dude.

[00:21:24] Mike: I do roofing marketing. Okay. Look, sometimes you gotta look the part, right? And we talked about this before.

If I'm out on the golf course, I golf like shit, there's a good chance I'm shooting a hundred or a hundred plus. Maybe I will get lucky and shoot a 95, but guess what I'm not gonna do? I'm not gonna be out there and sweat hands in a t-shirt. I'm gonna get a nice golf polo. Some nice shorts on. Have some golf spikes.

I'm gonna have a titleless glove. I might even buy some titleless balls, even though I know damn well if I leave with 12 balls at tee off, I might make it back with three ha. So you gotta look the part sometimes.

[00:21:53] Tim: Yeah, I'll dig it. I did, I did have a rap truck for a little while, but I got rid of it cuz it was a piece of shit.

But ,

[00:21:59] Mike: Yeah. Uh, coincidentally this truck, it blew header at like 12,000 miles, so I was super excited about that. Oh. So lead with the monthly payment. Yeah. You know, because that's more affordable. People can justify that. Right. They can digest it more easily and they can start to figure out in their budget how they can make sense of actually paying for this roof.

Mm-hmm. , Right? Y i, I wouldn't say you'd be surprised, but I think for the people watching, a lot of people would be surprised at how many people don't, not only lead with this, but bring it. . Accessibility and options are two huge components of making a decision when you're making a purchase, especially one that you're spending thousands and thousands of dollars on, right?

Mm-hmm. . So to let people know exactly what that looks like and how accessible you can make your product to them. undoubtedly helps you close more deals, right?

[00:22:53] Tim: Yep. Like, and if you're gonna get down to it eventually anyways, like, Hey, if you can't afford this $15,000 roof, have we got an offer for you? It's $150 per month for this many months.

Like, why are you hiding that till the end? Don't bury the lead. And like that's a journalism. Term, l e d e. It's, they basically say the spicy, I always use, use the word spicy. You love spicy, right? The spicy, interesting, like nugget of the story. That's an interesting nugget of the story. You're putting it way down here.

You need put it up here at the top. You start with the most interesting part of the story, you know, and, and it captures their attention. And the interesting part of the story here is that you'd be surprised. How little a roof could cost.

[00:23:43] Mike: Right? Yeah. And you know, you think about it and you know, people have egos, right?

And like if I'm looking to buy a roof and I get three quotes and two people have talked in depth about financing and once, you know, graze the surface of it or didn't even really mention it at all, I might not want to ask them. Right? Maybe my pride gets in the way and I don't want to ask them if they offer financing.

Mm-hmm. . Cause you know, I already have two that I know do and I know what the plan looks. So don't leave it up to chance, right? Mm-hmm. , take advantage of every opportunity to the fullest extent. Lead with the monthly number. Yes, sir. Got it. You got anything else? Don't you judge people? What's

[00:24:17] Tim: that? You don't judge and you don't judge people and you train your sales people not to judge people.

This is not, I don't know man. Maybe people judge me, but I just wanna share, I financed our carpet. It was $10,000 for this carpet and I just, for me, it felt like I've got $10,000. But I don't want to spend all of that $10,000 at this moment. I even have more than that. You maybe even 20, maybe more. Let, let me hold.

Yeah. The point is, is like just because they have that money doesn't mean they wanna part with it at this second. And the, the. economy is weird and the nu the what money is worth is going down. So it's really not the worst decision for them to do this. It's not a bad decision if they get, you know, good terms on this financing.

Tommy me says not to call it financing it, to call it promotions. Okay. I think is, uh, is pretty smart. He calls it promotions and he's, you know, the

[00:25:21] Mike: take away the negative connotation that some people might associate with it.

[00:25:25] Tim: Yeah, smart. And I basically just don't think it's a big deal. You don't have to judge people.

And it's not, it's not cuz they're poor or you know, like people may have not great credit scores, but you should also offer it to everybody. You should. There's actually some legal reasons why you should, if you're going to offer it to some people, you should offer it to everybody as well.

[00:25:47] Mike: That's interesting.

Very smart. Well, I'm not an attorney and I know nothing about the legalities of it, but what I can tell you. Yeah. So I'll

[00:25:53] Tim: caveat you at that as well. I do, I don't either, but what I do know is that's what I've heard from smarter people than me that know more about the legality.

[00:26:00] Mike: So 100%. Um, what else you got for, before we wrap

[00:26:04] Tim: up?

Alls I wanna say is come to one industry, one model.com. Uh, it's so the website, but also the event. We're all over the country. The next one is in Colorado. Um, we are gonna be in Orlando After that, we are gonna be in, uh, Omaha, August 17th through 18th Philadelphia, August 30th through 31st, Charlotte, September 13th through 14th Nashville, September 27th through 28th.

Two more Dallas, October 12th to the 13th in Salt Lake City, October 25th to the 26th. And it's really partly about selling. financing more often and maybe connect. There's a few financing partners that will be there, like Enhanced Fi and Sunlight and a few other ones. Mm-hmm. , uh, Captain, um, people that are kind of well regarded in financing and to just to kind of be able to, you can compare offers cuz there's more than one of 'em there.

Sure. Um, and it's smart people that are talking about this and the future of roofing. So it's about leadership financing and the future of roofing. And, and there's some sales, there's some salespeople too. We got like Chuck Toki and stuff like that on. Stops. We got some other cool people. It just, it's the real reason you should go is cuz it's community and we're coming close to your city.

So just, it's an easy one to get to get away for a couple days, sharp, sharpen the acts, and, uh, meet, just hang out with some cool people. That's really what I like about it. I. . I really appreciate a lot of the people that I'm on tour with. I feel like I'm just getting to rub shoulder. It's anytime you can rub shoulders with people, it's not those, These events are not that big.

Yeah. It's like 50 to a hundred roofers. Like to get around these 10 speakers and just kind of like be chummy with them and chat with them and go to dinner with them and stuff like that. Like that's cool. That's different than some of these places cuz you go to bigger events, it's like, you know, a thousand.

3000 people. This is like chill and you're getting to hang out with people and it's kind of intimate and ask questions like everyone that wanted to ask questions at the event, everyone got to ask their question. There was no, like, no one didn't get to ask all their questions. So it's just a cool, more intimate event than a lot of the

[00:28:18] Mike: stuff out there.

Nice. So if people wanted to learn more about the event and where do they, where do they go to? One

[00:28:23] Tim: Industry one model.com.

[00:28:26] Mike: Nice. There's also Facebook page I saw recently. , Um, they, I'm sure they can connect with you if they got questions.

[00:28:32] Tim: Yes, absolutely connect with me. Fantastic. Tim Brown and facebook.com/invigorated.

[00:28:39] Mike: Look at that. And I'll tell you folks, I haven't been to an event, but I have seen multiple five star endorsements as far as what people have taken away from the event. So be sure to hit my guy Tim up and uh, hey, thanks for joining us, Tim. Appreciate you.

[00:28:53] Tim: Thank you so much, brother.

On today's episode Mike has on Austin Fricker of A. Fricker roofing. Austin built his business from the ground up with a $5,000 line of credit and hard work!

Today A. Fricker Roofing is a $6 million company, and he shares in this episode his methods on how he got there.

He attributes his growth to buildng a QUALITY team up, knowing how to be a true leader, having work/life balance, having structure & trusting the process.

Contact us!

[email protected]

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[00:00:00] Austin: It actually worked out a little bit backwards for us because we didn't start at the top and go down. We started at the bottom and went up.

Mike: You can't teach experience, right?

Austin: Marketing in, in a saturated market. You have to have, and you have to be good at it, and you have to have somebody that is good at it and consistent.

[00:00:25] Mike: And we live episode three of the Mission Control Podcast, brought to you by yours truly, Mike Stearns with Ascend Digital Agency. Say we've got a very special guest, Mr. Austin Fricker, with a Fricker Roofing Austin, welcome.

[00:00:40] Austin: Thanks man. I appreciate you having me on today, brother.

[00:00:43] Mike: Did. I appreciate you being here.

Anyone that's willing to spend more than five minutes in a room with me, I give 'em a lot of credit, so we appreciate you. So take. There you go. Every day is an opportunity to grow. So you are in the Tulsa, Oklahoma market. What got you into

[00:00:58] Austin: roofing man? Uh, kind of a crazy story to be honest. Um, I got in some trouble in my past.

They sent me to a center where I got to be a roofer, um, for a small local roofing company in the area. And that was just kind of the start. It was kind of, you know, it was a blessing for sure. It was one of those things where I absolutely hated it at the beginning. I wasn't selling roofs, I wasn't managing projects.

I was literally hand nailing shingles all day, every day. So that was my start.

[00:01:32] Mike: Okay, perfect. So how long ago was that?

[00:01:38] Austin: Oh, seven years. Eight years. Seven. Eight

[00:01:42] Mike: years. Okay. That's, that's quite some time ago. So what did the road from coming from that point to where you're at now, what does that road look like for Austin?

[00:01:53] Austin: Okay. So unlike most people in a lot, in, in the ownership of a roofing company, I feel like these days is, uh, somebody starts off in sales, maybe a project manager. Then they, you know, have a lot of clients that go out on their own. Maybe they have a background in marketing and then they want to try owner.

Mama's just a little bit different and I mean, it is normal this way. Maybe it's a little bit more old school though. So like I said before, I was just out there hand nailing shingles all day, every day for a local roofing company out of eight Oklahoma. Then, you know, I got a girlfriend, kid, things like that.

They were in Tulsa. Toss is a much bigger market. Eight is like 10,000 people, greater Tulsa's like a million. Okay. Um, I decided to move into, uh, back to Tulsa. Got into the commercial roofing industry. Um, also, still as a, a laborer applicator. Worked my way up at that company to a foreman, superintendent, things like that.

And then, uh, from that point I started getting some side works, some repairs, things like that. And the company I worked for only did commercial, no exceptions for any reason. So a lot of what we did was somebody. That we did commercial work for, had a residential property, right? And the company couldn't fit those needs.

So I would get leads like that. And then, uh, and then one day I was just like, you know, I can't take this on anymore. It's just too much working 10, 12 hours a day there, getting off work, picking my son up from, from daycare, rolling around with my son doing repairs in the truck, things like that. It just got to be too much.

And then, uh, and then Covid. And I was like, Okay, yep, it's time going out on my own. And then from there it's just been counting blessings, just blowing up

[00:03:41] Mike: left and yeah. That's amazing. So just for context, you are in what year of your company?

[00:03:48] Austin: We are. We've been in business for two and a half full years.

[00:03:53] Mike: Okay, perfect. And what do you, what did you finish at last year? What are you projected to finish at this?

[00:03:59] Austin: Uh, we did a 2.4 year, one, 3.9, year two, and this year we're, we're definitely gonna do over five. Our, our push goal is 6.05. It's a very exact number, but that's what we're pushing for. But I know for sure we're doing, we're doing five minutes.

[00:04:18] Mike: I mean, that's, that's really good year over year growth. Have you been able to, to keep your margins where they need to be?

[00:04:27] Austin: You know, it's kind of funny because, uh, at the beginning, whenever I was actually on the roofs installing the roofs with my guys, I was charging. I mean, I, I had never, I'd never had any experience in, uh, estimating sales, finances, marketing, any, none of that.

So what I would do is, okay, I got my materials. It's gonna take me a day and a half with these three guys, plus, That's gonna cost me, you know, this much money and I wanna make $800 in a day and a half. And to me that was like insane. I was stoked about that. So that's what, that's what it was like at the beginning.

You know, if I made $4,000 on a roof, that was just insane. I was static. So then year two, I brought on sales reps, project manager, things like that. Got an office, got multiple trucks. So at that point I realized, okay, whatever I'm doing before I can't do roofs and make a thousand dollars anymore, I'm not gonna keep my head above water.

So then we started getting into insurance work, supplementing things like that, growing our maintenance and repair division. Um, and so then our profit margins really went from like 10 to 20% to 20 to 30%. And now they're more like 30 to 40%, which, you know, it's kind of hard. Think about. Cause you're like, okay, the bigger you get, the lesser the, uh, especially whenever you're earning that growth phase, the bigger you get, the less you're gonna make.

Cause you're spending all this money on marketing dollars, hiring guys where, or girls where there's a high turnover, investing in sales reps, training, things like that. And then it doesn't work out. That's just money down the drain. Um, so it actually worked out a little bit backwards for us because we didn't start at the bottom or at the top and go down.

We started at the, uh, bottom and

[00:06:20] Mike: went down interest. Yeah, that's a, an atypical path I'd say. Um, for sure. . So look, you mentioned something that grabbed my interest and I've heard a lot of debates on both sides of this, and you mentioned like a repair service division, right? So Yes. When did it get to the point where you found the value enough to dedicate roles for this within your company?

[00:06:47] Austin: So, you know, like I said earlier, I. I used to do repairs myself for the company and on the side and things like that. The first company I worked for, they'd do a little bit of repairs, but I was never the one doing 'em. The second huge commercial company I worked for, they had a huge maintenance and repair division.

I mean, their repair division was the same size as their production division, like man for man, truck for truck. So I knew that there was money in it. I knew that there was a way to make that. a vehicle for growth, especially in the commercial world. Um, I didn't realize that it, there was such a high demand in residential because like I said, I didn't really know anything about the, uh, roofing industry other than putting them on, right?

So I didn't realize that most companies don't have a repair division. That was something I didn't really understand that a lot of companies didn't do that. I always thought, you know, you do, somebody needs a repair. You sell 'em a repair, or you just do the repair so you can get the roof later, which is what I.

Um, and then the more and more I started noticing, people were like, Well, I called five people. Three of 'em showed up, one of 'em gave me an estimate for a new roof, but all I really need is I got four missing shingles. You know, it was things like that. And I was like, Okay, I'll charge you 800 bucks to swap out a few shingles, and it was just quick, easy money.

Then whenever I got so busy that I just couldn't get to all that, plus estimating, plus managing my guys and trying to grow the. I brought on an old employee or an old coworker of mine from that big roofing company. He started doing it. He brought on his, uh, son-in-law. He started doing it. And then now we've grown the, the department to where we run two, sometimes three trucks, depending how we wanna split up the guys.

But we have 'em in two man crews for safety reasons. Um, and I mean, I don't know where I would be without our repairs.

[00:08:44] Mike: Yeah, no kidding. It is like there's such a high demand and like from my, I bring a different perspective. I've never been in roofing per se. Right. I've been in the industry via marketing, and I always tell people like the surge volume, a lot of consumers just, you know, naturally they look for the cheapest option.

Right. It's just how it goes. Yeah. So they might be looking for a roof repair and maybe it is a replacement, but they don't want to come to grips with the fact that they gotta replace their 30 year old. Right. Because they know how much, we know how much money it costs. It's not cheap. Oh, yeah. Um, oh yeah.

What I, what I've found is that a lot of people struggle with getting people in place to actually do it and, and doing it in a way that's profitable because, you know, there's higher margins, but finding somebody who's consistently okay with doing repair work. Right. Um, it seems to be challenging for a lot of people.

So you have how many, how many people within your repair division. five right now and one came from a someone you used to work with, so that's a great relationship to have. You got some trust there. Reliability. Right? And that person you said, brought in two more people. Okay? Yes. That's awesome. So where did the other two come from?

Where did you have luck finding them?

[00:09:59] Austin: A lot of trial error, to be honest. . Um, that's the truth. I'm not gonna lie. I'm not gonna lie, man. The repair tech position is probably the one position that has the highest turnover of helpers, not a foreman. Okay? We've had the same foremans, but helpers, man, they just rotate whenever the season's due, okay?

Um, I mean, we're in Oklahoma. It's 104 degrees out. You get on a roof, it's just insanely hot. If you're not used to being a roofer, good luck, . It's gonna be hard for you, man. You're not gonna make it long. Or if you do, we know you're a. Seriously, cuz anybody that can do that is worth keeping, worth paying more just for the fact that they're that dedicated to push through stuff like that.

Push through the sun burns, you know, I mean everything. Um, and so another thing that we've done is, uh, we really just try to, if somebody has a friend or family member that they can bring on after 90 days, they get a check for bringing somebody off. because what we found is, you know, uh, employees from referrals seem to work out a little bit better for whatever reason.

That just kind of seems to be what's worked out for us. Cuz whenever we hire somebody that filled out, you know, uh, something on Google or sent us a Facebook message, they just saw something coming across their news feed they clicked on to see what it was about. But they're really not all that interested.

But if I'm like, Hey Mike, you got any friends or family that wants to be a repair tech or, you know, get into roofing or whatever the case. Like, you know what? My buddy used to do roofing. He's at a job right now. He was complaining about how he is only making, you know, $11 an hour. Man, let me hit him up.

Okay, well now we're talking about something. We got him in the office to talk to his face to face. And that's somebody that, you know, just like a, uh, just like any, like a customer lead. If you just give 'em a price over the phone, what are the odds that they're gonna, they're actually gonna follow through.

You know what I mean? Yeah. Or if it's somebody, Knows somebody you know, says, Hey, I'm coming out to look at this, and then you give 'em a price face to face. Your odds of closing are so much higher, right?

[00:12:10] Mike: Yeah. It's like, uh, it's, it's almost like the bird of the feather bird of a feather thing, right? Like they flock together.

Right? So if you have somebody who's a good employee Yeah. In whatever capacity or role that you have within your company, and you want more of those people, Same thing with a lead, right? If you get a referral from somebody who you did a roof for, you know, it's likely gonna close and they're likely gonna be, uh, comparable as far as the quality of that, that lead, right?

Yes. So for sure. Yeah. That's really interesting. So you started out hand banging shingles, right? Kind of doing it, you know, as you go. I think a lot of people, through my experience and what people have told me, and this is like in all business, was. , everybody wants to be the boss until they're the boss.

Right? And then they, they really see what comes with, you know, being able to go on that four day vacation. They don't look at the fact that it's been three years since you've left your zip code , or the 15 hour days that you've been putting in for the last three years. So, has it, has it been everything that you wish for?

Um, looking back in hindsight, .

[00:13:20] Austin: Oh man. Um, you know, I, I had a completely different perspective of what it was gonna be like. What? I mean, I was not signing up for what I got, just to be honest. It was a completely different situation. So my, in my mind, what I was envisioning was I would go to work, I would put on roofs in the afternoons or evenings, I would go do estimates or.

And then I'd go to sleep, get up and do it all over again. I have a few guys that I would roof with, you know, and things, and my wife would help me maybe with the books or marketing or something like that. Well, I didn't realize that it wasn't just that simple, especially in a big market like Tulsa. You know, I didn't think about finances.

I didn't think about, um, really what marketing takes. I mean, market. a completely different industry, just like finances is, but like marketing in, in a saturated market, you have to have, and you have to be good at it, and you have to have somebody that is good at it and consistent. Right. Um, and uh, another thing was, is, you know, I didn't realize how much money it was gonna take to, to work at the, at the level that I thought I was gonna be able to at the beginning.

Cause it takes an insane amount of capital to be able to get up to there. I started my company with $12,000 to our family's name, $12,000. That was it. Yeah. So I would do a roof and I had a credit line of $5,000 because I did not have a, I had never had a loan, never had a car payment, credit card, so I had no credit.

That was the issue too, so I had to build up credit. I was lucky enough to get a $5,000 credit line, have to do a roof, get paid super. Buy materials for the next one. Go do it. Get paid sewer fast. And it was like that for the first few months. Luckily we had a good hailstorm right after I, I started my own business, but you know, for the first two years I was working.

Literally, you remember, man, like 16 hours a day. You call me at nine, I answer. You call me at five, I answer and I'm probably in the truck doing something. Yeah. You know, I mean that, that's where I lived. now that I'm at year two and a half going again, you know, inching up on the three year mark, I think that I'm starting to actually get to the point where I want to be, where I can let go of my guys.

You know, I empower 'em to be able to do things on their own without me being, I, and I always say this word from one of my coaches, Nathan Toto. He, the first time I ever met him, he said, Yeah, man, you're, you're the choke point of your company. and that's what it is, you know? Yeah. I was the choke point, I was the Google of the company and, uh, I still am to a degree.

It's, we're, we're going through a lot of restructuring, coaching, training processes to change that so that I can do more of the portion that I want to do is, which is ironically out with my God. Right. How,

[00:16:22] Mike: how tough is that for you? Well, letting. I gotta tell you, man, I am a complete control freak, right? So, me too.

I am, I know the struggle that I've had and, and still have. It's an everyday struggle to like, be cognizant of that, be self-aware and like, you gotta let this go. You gotta let that go. And it's, um, it's, it's like a internal tug of war that takes place, right? ?

[00:16:47] Austin: Yes, Dude, it is so hard. So I always try to go off of, you know, if they can do it, 80% as good as I can do.

Then they can do it. You know, that's good enough, which you're never gonna find anybody that does it as good as you do, but over time they may do it better than you.

[00:17:08] Mike: That's,

[00:17:08] Austin: that's a really good point. You know, and that's the truth, you know, is they've got, you know, somebody, there's been a few people that gave me the opportunity and empowered me along my path.

Um, and if they would never have done that, I don't know how I would've been able to achieve what I have. So, . So that's one thing that, you know, I, I really do try to work on is letting go, empowering 'em, letting 'em do their thing. But man, whenever it comes down to like estimating, that's a scary thing, man.

you don't want 'em bidding, you know, $150,000 roof at 110,000 and really it costs 115 to do the job, right? You. Because then you're locked into that roof and you're married to that roof for two, three to five, maybe 10 years, whatever kind of warranty you put on that. Yeah. Um, not at stake. And man, that's a, Yeah, that's a scary thought.

But on the flip side, man, The way that I look at it is I never went to college. So I'm looking at is the first year, four years of business are the four first four years of college for me? I'm gonna have to pay some lose. Yeah. I'm gonna have to get ready degree, you know,

[00:18:17] Mike: Hey man, you can't teach experience, right.

So you, you get out there, get after it, and I mean, it served you well thus far. So keep up the good work. I've been pretty, pretty, Yeah. So you, you mentioned a coach, you said Nathan Tobi. .

[00:18:34] Austin: Yeah, he's one of 'em. Okay. Um, and then I also have, uh, John Townson.

[00:18:39] Mike: What, uh, what is the name of the

[00:18:41] Austin: outfit they work with?

Contractor Coach Pro. Uh, it's Jim Johnson's outfit. Okay. I mean, man, they're great.

[00:18:50] Mike: So when did you realize that you would benefit from what a coach would bring to the table?

[00:18:59] Austin: Okay, so after year, Whenever I started bringing sales reps, I knew I wasn't a good sales rep. I just sold my roofs based on being a roofer.

I was really knowledgeable, so I hired a company to do sales training. You know, we did that for a year. Then my guys learned how to sell. That's great. That's awesome. But then I started thinking about, I really don't know how to grow a business. Like people go to college, people. Spend their whole life in business to figure out how to grow a

[00:19:30] Mike: business.

And, and a lot of 'em still don't know .

[00:19:34] Austin: Yeah, exactly. I don't know if I do, honestly. Um, but then I was like, you know, I think I, and then I ran into John Townsend at, uh, Roof Con, and we just started talking, you know, talking more about the ins and outs of the business, not just specifically sales. And whenever you started pointing things out, it really made sense.

And really whenever he asked me like, Hey, do you wanna keep, you know, working 12 to 15 hours a day every day? Cuz you're not gonna make it doing that. That's whenever I was like, You're right man. I need somebody that's done this before that can give me some shortcuts to achieve what I'm trying to achieve, which is not working 120 hours a week, not working seven days a week, having time with my family, having time with.

And also just knowing how to manage my, my business, keep an eye on all the aspects that I need to keep an eye on and create structure and processes so that all of my guys can do the best that they can do. Yeah. You know,

[00:20:37] Mike: I mean, it's your obligation to do that as their leader, right? Yeah. Nice. So what are, what are some of the, the key takeaways, like the biggest.

Pivots that you've made from your pre-coaching days to now that you've kind of had some outside help from people that have done it before. What? What have been the biggest, I guess, impacts that it's made?

[00:20:59] Austin: Well, impacts, I mean, obviously it's hard in my, I mean, in my opinion, growing a company past the, the $4 million mark is really hard. Like you can have one to four, you know, relatively easy. Going past that for, I mean, that's a lot of volume that requires a lot of moving parts that I didn't realize were required.

They brought a lot of that to light that I didn't even realize that we were doing, but we weren't necessarily doing it. Right. Um, and then also just how granular you have to be with things in order to teach somebody else how to do that. That's a huge thing that I didn't realize How. Granular, I had to break down every single thing on every single process to figure that out.

Now on the flip side, that's more of the business stuff, but more of the like me stuff, um, is I didn't have a mission statement. Um, I didn't, we, you know, we had our core values, but we didn't have 'em wrote on the wall. Not everybody that walked in the door and knew 'em. Um, we'd have new guys come in that weren't, you know, upholding 'em, and we didn't really.

We knew, we know the value of our each individual person's core values, but there's a, there's something else about having a team that has the same core values. It operates differently. You know, they, they think about situations differently. You know, it's a whole nother culture and that, and building up our culture, them helping me to become a better leader.

that's a whole nother deal. You know, leadership obviously is something that you have to work on day after day after day after day. And you, you have a journey. It's, it's, uh, it's a long term thing. Yeah. And whenever you figure out, Okay, I've gotten to this phase of being a leader, but maybe there's a reason why I'm not getting the buy-in that I should be.

And it's not because they are not buying in, it's. I'm not doing what I need to so they can buy in. And that was kind of like an epiphany moment. Like, I need to grow more as a person, as a leader, as an owner, um, as a husband, as a, uh, a father, so that I can be a better leader for my

[00:23:23] Mike: guys. It's not always the easiest thing to do, right?

[00:23:28] Austin: Yeah. Oh, that's the hardest

[00:23:29] Mike: part. There's no doubt about it. What are, what would you say has been the most challenging aspect, you know, as you've progressed from the very beginning to where you're at now through the journey? Say that again. What would you say is the most, has been the most challenging aspect?

Whether it's a thing, a group of things that, that you've experienced from going to, you know, just hand banging shingles at eight o'clock at night to running a five to $6 million.

[00:23:58] Austin: Man, that's pretty hard cuz you know, there's a lot of hard things. . I mean really, it's like every aspect is pretty difficult out for me.

It was outside of just the roofing and sales came naturally to me cuz I was a roofer, so I had to end with knowledge. So that was pretty simple for me to figure out. Um,

Man, that's a tough one,

[00:24:25] Mike: bro. That's all good. That's not easy. I'm glad I can stump you a little bit. .

[00:24:29] Austin: Yeah. I would say the most, the most challenging thing is, well, for sure in roofing, most roofers can relate to this. You know, insurance saves 30, 45, 60 days to pay. You have all these different bills you gotta pay.

You got all these different commissions you gotta pay you. All these, just a whole bunch of things. You gotta, where money's going out and your, your goal is to keep jobs coming in, which equals money going out. Well in, in the process of that, it's like, well, it's kind of difficult to do like a month's end or a year's end because your money can be so strung out.

So figuring out the numbers of where we need to be, where we should be, um, and where, yeah, where we're. And how much money can go into marketing, how much money can go into, uh, truck allowances? How much money can go into, you know, a new office, Can we start stalking shingles in bulk? You know, things like that.

That's kind of just something that's been hard for me to wrap my mind around, but something for me to, that's the hardest thing for me to actually get up and do is creating that damn process. Mm-hmm. , that is the, Mind numbing, bearish thing. , it's like, it's like looking at a spreadsheet with nothing but numbers all day, every day.

Except for it's only been 10 minutes, right? Huh? It's so difficult and it's cuz what you're trying to do is you're trying to put what you do in the real world onto paper, but without actually doing it and sitting behind a desk, you know, and make it, make it relatable to every situation. Like

[00:26:17] Mike: writing book.

Yeah. It's not, it's, it's challenging, right? Because, you know, we have all this stuff in our head, right? And there's an assumed level of knowledge of the next person that they're gonna have. You know, maybe they're gonna be here, here, here in the learning curve. And it's like, you kind of have to assume everyone's starting from zero.

Create your process from there. And then, like you said, once you have the process, I think of it kind of like a teacher, right? You can have a teacher of any subject. And it could be the most interesting thing in the world, but if that teacher doesn't know how to teach in a way that's gonna engage their audience and people respond differently to different things, so if she can't get that audience engaged, it doesn't, That shit doesn't matter because nobody's gonna pay attention to retain the information.

Not nobody, but there's gonna be a much smaller percentage of people that will actually be focused on what he or she is actually trying to teach them. Right?

[00:27:08] Austin: Yeah, for sure. I would, I would definitely agree with that 100%. Like, you know, honestly, when, like, here's a good example. Whenever you give me advice on things, which is crazy, I don't know why I would take advice from you, but, um, I listen, you know, I really do.

But whenever I've talked to the marketing people that we've hired in the past, man, I just, I'm not with it, you know, It, it just kind of doesn't seem like they're as bought in. And I think that that does come down. Is this person truly invested in this situation or this company or this person? Cause I feel like you can really tell if somebody's truly invest in something versus somebody's just going through the motions and things like that.

Like you said, a teacher, if they're truly invested in their class, the class can tell. Yeah, no doubt about it. If they're trying to make moves to prove

[00:28:00] Mike: it. Yeah, that's a, that's a really good point. That's smart. So, , you're doing residential, you're doing commercial, you've got your, your repairs, you've got your replacements, You're doing a ton of marketing.

Like what's the end game for a Fricker Roofing ?

[00:28:22] Austin: Well, it used to be up until, you know, probably five or six months ago, we wanted to grow a lot more. Um, but again, backing up to the leadership and backing up to being a better husband, father. . I just don't think I can have my fingers on the pulse like I should this early in our career and in our business's life to grow too much more than we are right now.

Mm-hmm. , you know, we wanted to be a 20, 30, 40 million company and now that I've realized what that takes really, if you have a big enough banker bankroll and some good saw people, I feel that just about anybody can do that. Dump money into marketing, have plenty of crews, things like. But what I'm really wanting is a well oiled machine where everybody within the company is financially free, has their, you know, freedom from just being able to get, walk out the door and be able to think about other things.

Um, being able to take off work, able to go home and be a husband and be a father, and things like that. Um, and so we really wanna stick around the five to $8 million range. We don't wanna get any bigger. Maybe even seven, just so that we can really get what we're doing down really, really well. Make sure that all of our guys are happy, we're all constantly growing, and that we're just being as efficient as possible and not just throwing money into something so we can keep growing and growing and growing, growing.

I'd rather make sure that we're very profitable at this number before we try to be profitable at this bigger. So I, I wanting to say around the, you know, like I said, five to $8 million range, Make sure everybody is where they want to be personally and professionally and just create a very efficient machine.

[00:30:15] Mike: Yeah, I think. Um, so let me ask you this. What was your, when you wanted to be 20, 30, $40 million company, what was the thought behind that?

[00:30:26] Austin: You know, I don't really know. , like, you know, it was one of those things, I just always thought more is better. You know, bigger is better. And the more I've learned, and the more people I've talked to that are at that level, or bigger than that level, um, it comes down to really, they're like, you know, I'm making just as much as I was whenever I was at 8 million or 9 million I, and now we're at 23 and I make the same amount of money except for I'm a whole way more headache.

And that's,

[00:30:58] Mike: yeah. , I said way more headaches.

[00:31:01] Austin: Yeah. Yeah. That just doesn't sound appealing. Like who wants to make the same amount of money but do way more work?

[00:31:07] Mike: Well, I, I think, I think part of it has to do with like ego, right? Like, you know, I think about when I, like I was in high school or shortly thereafter and I'm like, ah, you know, I want to be able to bench 315 pounds.

why that shit doesn't matter. Right. It's like the least functional strength I think that, you know, I could acquire is bench pressing. Right? I'm not an offensive lineman. Um, yeah, I'm not, I'm not doing anything where like this motion is really gonna help me. But like, it's really cool to say that I could bench 315 pounds, right?

And then like, you know, then I started getting older and as I would bench, you know, and try to lift heavy. Good Lord, my shoulder is killing me, right? Like my body's breaking down and now it makes even less sense to like lift happy. So, you know, now I live with like 135 pounds and you know, I do high wraps and maybe I'll do 2 25, but like I'm not pushing for any huge max just because there's not value in that to me.

And I realize that it's really just an ego thing is for me in that instance, is the only thing that's pushing that want to, to get to that level that I initially thought that I wanted to be at. So what I'm saying is I'm, I'm old and weak now is what?

[00:32:20] Austin: Yeah. Well I gathered that. I saw, I've seen you play

[00:32:24] Mike: basketball.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Still got a jump shot though. Um, Yeah, you

[00:32:29] Austin: do, man. Hey, you drank three corners. Um, you know, man, it was one of those things, like, like I said, we were doing some coaching and they had me write out my dream and I wrote out this dream. I put all this thought into it and stuff like that.

You know, did it how I was supposed to, and then I brought it back to 'em and we started going over like all the different things on my dream that I wanted to, that was my dream. And they're looking at it and they're like, Well, it kind of looks to me like this is kind of your life now. Like you've got all these things.

Mm-hmm. and some of 'em were quite, a bit of 'em were materialistic, you know? And I mean, to me, I thought they were well thought out, but they realistically were. And so whenever I'm looking at what I thought wanted to be my dream, okay, that's my dream and I can do all that right now. But what about the other side of it?

Am I going to have all that and just kill myself working all day every day, exhausted, not there mentally for anything else other than work. And I was like, okay. That was kinda like the aha moment. Like, okay, this is supposed to be about more than just achieving this. It's about achieving. And having a peace of mind and enjoying life.

And just having fun. Man, that was a huge thing. I didn't have as much fun that that second year, now that I'm past that second year, I'm starting to be able to loosen up, you know, relax, go home, turn the phone off, things like that. Now I just get to enjoy things more. Cuz you know how it is, man. Especially the beginning.

You're all uptight, tense, anxious, you know. If you can shake that but still have all the perks of owning your own business. I think that's what most people are really after is, you know, that's what they need. Actually. They may not know that that's what they're after, cuz they really wanna get that new truck, that big old house, things like that.

But that's what they really need is a big truck, big house. And

[00:34:27] Mike: he's a Yeah. Exa, Well, you know, time's the one resource we can't replenish, we can't buy more of. Right. So it's. , and you know, me, me personally, as I've gotten older, I become more and more aware of that each day. And I've, I've for a long time had valued my time, but again, it gets increasingly more valuable to me as I know that day after day I, it sounds morbid, but I have less of it.

Right. Um, to look forward to. Yeah. So I think that's a really interesting point and I, I couldn't agree more with it, man. If only we could buy more time. Right. Make the days 28 hours. You're kidding. Mom. .

[00:35:04] Austin: Yeah, I think there's a movie about that

[00:35:06] Mike: though. It might be, it might be one or two. Uh, so yeah, I think that's just

What is like, let's talk adversity, right? So you, you in running your business, like I've been here for a good part of it and have, have seen you weather storms, both literal storms and Tulsa, Right. And the proverbial storms. Let's talk, you know, where did you. , where did you de de develop your strength, your mental strength from to endure what it's taken you to get your business to this point?

[00:35:40] Austin: Man, I'll tell you, it's crazy to say, I was actually like we were talking about health. I actually went to the doctor for the first time in like 10 years today. Dr. Drew, Blood, all that stuff. But, um, man, I, I was telling the doctor about this cuz you know, I gotta tell him my whole medical history and. And so I was, I was a drug addict.

And if for anybody that's ever been a drug drug addict, they know like, Hey, that's hard. That's a hard life to live. Yeah. You know, I was a, a hustler and things like that and I mean, I went through things that I hoped that God, nobody else I know has to go through. And a lot of that ironically developed a lot of my mental strength and then going to jail, spending a long time in jail.

And then getting shipped off to being away from my family. And all I did was roofing while I was gone for $0. Didn't get to keep a single dollar of it. Um, in that two and a half year span where I was, you know, caught up in drugs, living a crazy hard lifestyle, being really hard on myself to going to jail, spending a long time in jail to going to a work center, doing nothing but roofing and then.

and then wearing that kind of on my back is like, Oh, he is an addict. He worked, you know, he is 20 whatever years old. All he is is a roof, or things like that. You know, I learned how to shake a lot of things off and how to really pay attention to how to who I was supposed to be and not what I became. And once I started realizing that you know who I'm supposed to be is this really showing person that's capable of accomplishing whatever they want to accomplish, all they have to do is continue taking the next.

And no matter what kind of distractions are around or what kind of hurdles there are, as long as you keep taking that next step like you're supposed to, that's your training. You, you've been trained to get to where you are now so that you can overcome whatever's in front of you. And so it's, like I said, it's ironic that drug addiction gave me the strength to help me get to where I am now.

But it really, that's where it all started and, and then also obviously, My family. Yeah, of course. You know, that's a huge part is having them as a huge confidence booster, you know?

[00:37:59] Mike: Yeah, for sure. So how long have you been drug free?

[00:38:09] Austin: About

[00:38:10] Mike: seven years. That's amazing. Congratulations brother. I talked about it recently with another guest, and you know, I was in. , I was an addict at one point and, you know, I guess you would say I'm in recovery. And it's, uh, it is, it is tough. And, you know, you're, I feel very fortunate to, to be sitting here with you today and having this conversation for both of us.

Right. Um, because it's, it's not easy and it's, it's a, what has, my question to you is what has helped sustain that? Do you ever have. Do you ever feel like it, it, it's more challenging and sometimes than others? Are there certain things you do to cope when things get tough? For those out there that might be dealing with a similar issue?

[00:38:53] Austin: Man, you know, it's one of those things where we, we get so caught up in our life, you know, being so busy and things like that, that sometimes I, at least I am, I'm a little bit guilty of neglecting what I, what's really on my mind sometimes, and. Only whenever I relax do I actually feel what's on my mind. Um, and so a big part of what got me through it at the beginning was just work, work, work, work, work.

Try I do more, more, more, more, more. And so I think that may honestly be a another factor of why I wanted to have that 20, 30, 40 million company, because slowing down wasn't in me because then it would give me the ability to, to think about things I didn't want to think about or whatever. And then, you know, another portion of it was whenever you are responsible of other people's, like wellbeing or finances or things like that, like if I screw up today and relapse, what happens to all the people in our company that we've built up to this point?

You know, what happens to all of our customers that have warranties through us? What happens to all the people that refer us on? When we have 10 referrals on one Facebook post, you know, how do, how am I gonna make those people look, if somebody find finds out, Oh yeah, he, he's back onto this, or he is back onto that.

And so just that is what helped me hold myself accountable to my actions, to my thoughts and just knowing that, hey, that's something, it's almost. That was a completely different person. Almost like, obviously once an addict, always an addict. But it's like that was a completely different person who I was.

Yeah. Now I'm, I'm back to being Austin Freaker, who I'm supposed to be, who I want to be, who my friends and family want me to be. Um, but yeah, I mean,

[00:40:51] Mike: I hope that answers dude. That's question. I mean, it's an amazing answer, dude. It's like I said, I know how challenging it is. You know, people cope with things in different ways and people have different, you know, methods to, to dealing with things.

And I think that it's important for, you know, people that are, that might be watching this or may watch this in the future to know like, this isn't something that you should not try to deal with. You're not alone like other people have been here. And just to shed some perspective on what's worked for you, I think, you know, if it can make a difference for one person, I think that's a huge

[00:41:21] Austin: win.

Yeah. Oh yeah. That, and I mean really, ultimately that's the goal, man, is if you can change one life, I mean, what is better than that? Yeah. Honestly, I mean, what is better than changing somebody's life, Changing the direction of their life? That's why we, we try our best to hire people and recovery, and as you as one person would probably assume that creates issues because especially when they're early in recovery.

A lot of people relapse. I mean, the success rate of getting off certain drugs is like insanely low. So that's a hurdle we've had to overcome. Be as you know me, man, I always want to help people go outta my way for people, things like that. And so it sucks whenever you do that for somebody and then boom, they relapse and then kind of make you look stupid in the process.

And then now you're stuck with your pants down because you're like, Well now I got one repair tech. He can't go out by him. So you put me in a bond whenever I was trying to help you. Sure. But all that to say, the people that we have helped that are on the right path, especially now, I mean the credit doesn't go to us.

They do all that on their own, but those people are what make it worth it. Yeah. You know what I mean? And the fact that we, we still tried. We did our best. Yeah.

[00:42:42] Mike: And I, I think that's, that's pretty incredible, man. It's, you know, having empathy for, for people and, and taking a chance on people like we, at some point or another, we've all needed a second.

Or in my instance, the third or fourth chance. Right. Like ,

[00:42:58] Austin: I know

[00:42:59] Mike: that was, Yeah. You know, and, and so, you know, some of us are stubborn and some are less stubborn and, you know, it take, it takes all types. So I think it's amazing to, to be able to bring to the community that mindset and that open mindedness and be willing to embrace those that need help and give them an opportunity.

Because like you said, the, the, if, if you're talking specifically about addiction, Even, you know, more specifically d certain types of drugs, they have a higher relapse rate, but if nobody ever gives them a shot, what is the likelihood that they break through? Right? So you're doing, you're doing an incredible service to those people and the, the community around you by doing that.

So, um, I applaud that and Oh yeah. I mean, I'm not in Tulsa, but I'm grateful for it because, you know, I think that, uh, I think we need some more of that positive energy in this world quite.

[00:43:49] Austin: for sure. And you know, as well as I do, man, it's hard to stay positive sometimes whenever you're in a business, whenever there's 10 fires going on, like you just wanna pull your hair out and then somebody that just asks like a simple question, you're like, Oh my God, you are so annoyed me right now.

But it's really not even them. You know what I mean? And so it, it can be difficult sometimes to keep trying to do good whenever you're so busy. . But what we've come to find out is if we keep trying to just donate our value and donate what we're capable of doing, that will help people. Then the money comes on the back end.

Yeah. Every time it just comes back. So that's why, I mean, we do a lot of free repairs on, you know, if I go see a customer and they just need some basic, I'll just do it right then if, if that's somebody that's in need, you know, or. . A cheerleading team needs uniforms. Yeah, we'll do it. Or a baseball team or a shelter or, you know, the whole town freeze is like it did.

We're not built for the cold here in Oklahoma. If there's, if there's an inch of ice, we are shut down.

[00:44:57] Mike: Yeah. Us here in Buffalo too.

[00:45:02] Austin: Well, you know what happens is a lot of the homeless people, man, um, they. They're stuck out in that. You know what I mean? They really are. The shelters are full. So, you know, noticing that, trying to help those people, trying to go outta the way for those people, I mean, even though that's giving away money, it's not bringing in money, it still will help you get to your end result at the end of the day somehow, in some way.

It just,

[00:45:30] Mike: you just have to have faith. Well, and it's like I, You can't always. The value is something you can't always quantify in putting into a spreadsheet, right? So, you know, if you could wake up in the morning and feel good about the person that you're seeing, right? And, and the, the skin that you're living in, there's, there's, it's an unbelievable amount of value in what that does for your mind and how that helps you continue to do right, make good choices, do the right.

And just feeling as if you, You're making a difference right. On yourself. For your family. Yeah, for the community. Like that stuff is super powerful, man.

[00:46:10] Austin: Oh yeah. And it feels good, man. You know, I'd like to say sometimes that I, you know, we do it for them, but you know, man, you do it because it makes you feel good.

You know what I mean? Yeah. Like, that's why I do it, is because it makes me be at peace with myself and it makes me feel good, gives me fulfillment and. . That's something that, you know, it's like actually helping some, helping a customer versus just selling a customer something, right? I mean, I'm guilty of just selling a customer something that they probably didn't need.

But also whenever you are able to truly help somebody at the end of it, and they'll just have all this gratitude, they'll tell your name to every person that walks by their. . That's the good feeling that I'm

[00:46:53] Mike: always searching. Yeah. And then, you know, the, the byproduct of that is in, you know, you do that and do good work and next thing you know, you're getting recommended 10 times on a Facebook thread.

Right? And like, people know that you're a company that can be trusted because you uphold values, you practice business in, in your life with integrity. Um, and dude, there's, I mean, that's a, I would say you're in the vast minority of companies, uh, you know, I'm a, I guess I'm like naturally a negative person.

Like I have a very, uh, cynical view on the world, right? And, you know, people arrive at their conclusions based off their experiences and different things. But, uh, in my experience, if you've got a hundred people in the room, there's more people that are inclined to not be good than to be good. And goods an arbitrary statement, which we could have a whole debate for hours on that, but we're not gonna do that.

No kidding, dude. not. I appreciate what you're doing for the roof and community, man. It's been a great pleasure of mine to be a part of your journey. Um, I look forward to the, the next few years to come and much longer. Thanks for coming in and, and shedding some, some light on these situations and value for the audience.

Man, I really appreciate having you. .

[00:48:05] Austin: Yeah, for sure, man. Well, thanks for having me on. And you're too humble, man. You know, a lot of our success is owed to you, brother. You made a huge impact in our business early on. Thanks brother. And you continue to, and you know, literally every single day. So don't ever downplay what all you do you did and do for us, even outside of marketing, man.

I mean, I mean, I, I really, brother, I appreciate

[00:48:30] Mike: that. Let's keep this party rocking. Episode three. We out.

In todays episode, Mike has Corey Combes of SouthShore Roofing & Exteriors on the show!

After battling addiction with substance abuse, Corey found himself working roofing & remodeling sales.

Working in the industry, Corey has found himself a formula for his sales approach, which most business owners struggle with, that he has optimized. Bringing customers into your business is hard, but Corey shares with us his 5 step sales process.

Check out SouthShore Roofing & Exteriors here: https://southshorecontractorstampa.com/

Contact us!

[email protected]

Let's Connect! ==== ==== ==== Website: https://bit.ly/3NQXXKK Facebook: https://bit.ly/3xH8VaT Linkedin: https://bit.ly/3RWTSyr

Corey: There is no substitution for experience

Mike: answering the phone with the right tone, that first impression, there's a first impression of when I meet you in person. And then there's a first impression when you're making a phone call and that matters. That sets the tone for the proceeding interaction.

Corey: We want to just refine what we're doing, continue to make things easier and better for the people that work for me become more efficient.

Mike: Welcome back. This is the is Mision Control Podcast brought to you by Ascend Digital Agency. I'm Mike Stearns. Today. We have a very special guest Corey Combs with Southshore Roofing and Exteriors. Corey. Thanks for coming to board. yep. Thanks for having me, like I appreciate it. Yeah, absolutely. So we've got an action packed agenda for today.

Corey opened his first full year of operations in Tampa, Florida for south shore roofing and exterior in 20, 20, soon thereafter, we entered into a global pandemic. Corey, what was that like after taking the plunge and deciding to get after it right. Entering into a precarious situation, like a pandemic.

Corey: Yeah. Um, so, you know, of course when it first hit, we were, you know, everybody was really scared. I was terrified. Um, I thought that, you know, it was gonna basically be the end of my business and what actually happened oddly enough. Thank goodness. We had a, a great governor in Florida who kept business open.

Uh, a lot of people decided to move to Florida and we actually exploded. Uh, because there were so many people moving, there were so many houses that needed new roofs to close the deal. At the same time, insurance companies were tightening restrictions on what they would write policies for in terms of the age of the roof.

And so it actually ended up being what looked like. The worst thing that could happen is probably the

Mike: best thing that could happen. Wow. That's uh, that's interesting. So tell everybody a little bit about Corey Combs. What's your history? How did you end up where you're at today? Okay.

Corey: Yeah. So I just want everybody to know.

I, uh, I, I came to the podcast with my ascend digital shirt on because I support a send digital and Mike Mike, Mike, Mike didn't Mike found it funny. I was, I was kind of clowning a little bit, but, um, yeah man, Corey Combs. I, uh, I've been in the roofing industry since, uh, 1993 started as a laborer. Um, And, you know, one of the things that I'm, I'm pretty passionate about too is, is, is recovery.

Um, and in helping guys in recovery and, and, you know, back when I started roofing, the reason I started roofing is cuz I, you know, I just, um, kind of have a drug alcohol problem and roofing was a good place to kind of hide out. It didn't really matter. Um, but it was, you know, it was a valuable time in my life cuz I learned how to roof.

I learned, uh, the roofing industry and you know, shortly after that, you know, my family started buying properties and got into flipping properties and things like that. So I've, I'm a lifelong, you know, born and raised in Florida. And um, I learned a lot about the cons construction industry. I learned a lot about budgeting.

I learned all that stuff and then 2008 hit and I didn't have a job anymore. Basically like construction residential housing was just no more. I mean it just like somebody turned off a faucet. Okay. Um, , but what I, what I had to do was I had to find another job and I had a, I had a friend of mine. So right around that time, I was starting to try to figure out my life and get cleaned up.

And, uh, a guy gave me a shot working for his marketing company that traveled all over the us doing health club, marketing programs and sales marketing programs. And that's where I learned about sales and marketing, the fundamentals of sales, the fundamentals of marketing. And I really learned how to sell at that point.

So, you know, again, we look back at like what seemed to be really bad times that actually turned out to be really a blessing in disguise because it forced me to get outta my comfort zone and learn something new. So, you know, with that, I took that back to when cons, you know, I, I, in, you know, 2010, I moved to, uh, Buffalo, New York with my wife.

Who's from Buffalo, New York. Um, got a job working for a large company there. Uh, they do, you know, roofing, remodeling, things like that. And I really got to put those, the sales fundamentals to the test and, you know, every year I was their top sales guy, I was selling, you know, two, two, you know, two, 2.5, 2.7, 2.8 million every year for that company.

And so, you know, all of that stuff that I learned, the operations, you know, the operations stuff that I learned when we were flipping houses, the sales stuff, the, all of that stuff really helped me when I decided to start my own business, uh, here in Florida. Yeah.

Mike: Wow. That's, that's incredible, man. So you had touched on recovery and I mean, that is obviously something that, you know, it's not just you, uh, there's a lot of people that struggle, you know, with, you know, being dependent on, you know, you name it right.

And it's not an easy battle to fight. It's an ongoing battle. So let's talk a little bit about how you found success. Uh, as far as the road to recovery, and what that's looked like for you?

Corey: Yeah, it's, you know, it was a tough one, man. I mean, I, I, you know, I started, I started smoking, you know, started smoking pot when I was like thir 12, 13 years old.

And it was just, you know, it was, I hit the road running from there. And so, you know, growing up, you know, I didn't, I didn't graduate high school. Um, I didn't go to college. I didn't do any of that stuff. I mean, I just got right into the trades and, you know, it's pretty common in the trades. I mean, construction industry, you know, lot of substance abuse specifically in roofing, lots of substance abuse.

And so, um, it wasn't until, you know, I was 24 that I really figured that I was having a tough, tough time. I mean, nothing ever worked out. It was problem after problem after problem. And I tried to sober up man, and it was just, it was tough, you know, and I spent a lot of years, you know, going in and out and I finally ended up in.

you know, I started doing narcotics anonymous and, you know, multiple rehabs and all those different things. And, um, it wasn't until, you know, I just got to the point where I, I just had had enough man, and I got into alcoholics anonymous. And even though I was more of a junkie than I was an alcoholic, I, I found what I needed in AA and, you know, um, you know, God willing in December, I'll be celebrating 14

Mike: years, uh, sober.

That's amazing. Congratulations, man. Yeah. So was there an event in particular where, you know, it kind of flipped a switch to where the need, you know, cuz I, I feel, you know, I, in the past I've, I've struggled, you know, with, with certain dependencies and, and for me there was an aha moment where it was like, okay, if you don't, if you don't pivot, if you don't change your lifestyle, you're not gonna be.

Much longer. Right. Was there, was it a, a certain event or was it kind of just straws cam piling up on the camel's back? What, what was it that, that got you to that point to take action?

Corey: Yeah. I mean, the, the straws that keep piling up on your back, I think typically get you to a point where they, you know, they call it your bottom, you know, and one of the big ones was, you know, my 24th birthday, my bro, I have a twin brother and he, he came to pick me up and he's like, Hey, we're gonna go out and, you know, celebrate.

And I ended up going out with them tot TJ, I Fridays. And it was a bunch of people that I went to high school with a bunch of people that I grew up with and everybody was starting to be successful. You know, everybody was getting their, you know, you know, their nicer cars and I didn't even have a license at the time.

I couldn't drive. I lost my license. And, um, it just, you know, I, I, you know, I was sitting there with everybody. At T G Fridays, I was, I was hooked on heroin at the time and I just felt like a, I just felt like a piece of trash man with, with all of those people. And I ended up getting into a fight at T G Fridays, cuz I was just so you know, I was just, I was just so uncomfortable and I, I wound up getting into a fight and uh, turned into this whole thing and you know, my, my brother takes me home after all of that.

And I, I, I went upstairs to my apartment. That was just a, just a shitty apartment. And I looked in the mirror and I just said to myself, I was like, I fucking hate you. Like I hate you. And you know, proceeded to just trash my apartment, you know? Okay. And after, you know, after that, um, I was sitting there and I just had this, that caused this moment of clarity, man, where.

Um, and I'm kind of getting goosebumps talking about it, where it was like, you know, you're gonna be okay. And I have these tattoos on the back of my arm that say in due time, because it was like something spoke to me and I, I believe it to be God, you know, higher power spoke to me at that point. Just said, just give it time.

You're gonna be okay. You know? And that was the, that was the, the start of me trying to do something different. And that road was really long. I mean, we could talk for three hours about what that road looked like, but that was the start of when I, when I, when I was really trying to get myself together and, and, and get

Mike: sober.

Yeah. That's, I mean, that's amazing. That's so AA has been a pivotal, a crucial piece of that equation. Right. Having, and, and I think, you know, there's the support, the structure to that. I think, you know, the mentor or sponsor rather, right. That's I I've talked to a lot of people have found a lot of great success in that, and I think it's really.

Challenging to see, you know, the upside and the end of the light at the end of the tunnel when we're, we're stuck in these, these ruts, right. That are addiction. Yeah. Or anything else, and, um, kudos to you, man, because it's, it's, it's not easy. It's obviously something a ton of people struggle with. So congratulations on your sobriety.

That is amazing.

Corey: Yeah. You know, we're, I guess the theme is, you know, events that seemed like they were catastrophic. Right. But ended up being the biggest blessing. And I think that's one of the reasons why, you know, business, I I've been able to sort of weather and have thick skin in business because you know, when, when you, when you're dealing with something like that and the work that it takes and the, the, you know, they call it sticktuitiveness, it takes to, to get sober and to.

Of go through the steps and to deal with the uncomfortability and to deal with the depression and the, you know, all of the stuff that comes along with getting sober and being able to stick to what you're doing and have people support you and you know, all the step work that you do and the writing and the reflecting and, and the trying to change.

And all of that stuff, man has really helped me, you know, in my business too, because at the end of the day, you're taught that like, everything starts and stops with you, man. You're responsible for it. Accountability, like you're responsible for you. Yeah. Accountability. Yep. So that was another one of those situations where it seemed to be just catastrophic for me and ended up being one of the best things that could ever happened.

Such a blessing.

Mike: Yeah. It's it's and I think that's a, a really important point. And I mean, you could even take it outta the context of this situation is, you know, trying to be acutely aware of the fact that. You know, we tend to make mountains out of mole Hills sometimes. Right. Um, you know, and, and trying to find a way to realize that some things that in the moment seem so incredibly crippling.

If we look at our entire picture of life and things that we've been through and things that we're gonna go through eventually, it's like,

we tend, we have, I have a tendency personally, and from people that I've spoken with in the past, it's like, it's really hard to take those day to day task. That really aren't a big deal. And I'm not trying to, to dilute how big of a deal like, you know, addiction is in the struggle, cuz again, I've experienced it firsthand and it is the weight of the world on top of you.

But I think in day to day business, even, you know, we have, you know, these tasks, some are tedious, some are, are very, very important. Some are less important. But even for me, like the less important ones I let. Turn into a, a boatload of stress for me, right? Yeah. And I think of the worst case scenario and maybe 99% of the time, it's never gonna actualize as the worst case scenario, but the stress and anxiety that can some kind sometimes result and manifest itself as a result of me saying, well, what if right.

Um, it it's an interesting perspective, right?

Corey: yeah. I mean, you know, there's, there's the saying is like feelings aren't fact. Right. And, you know, sometimes you just have to remember that and, you know, I, you know, the, the, the, the interesting thing is, is, you know, you never know when somebody's gonna make a deep impact in your life.

And, you know, we're doing this commercial job in Jacksonville right now. And, um, I had just met this guy we're working together. He had, he brought a pretty good size job to me. And, um, when we were unloading the materials off the it's a, it's a fluid applied roofing. And when we load the materials off the truck, A bunch of it spilled all over the parking lot.

Like some of the containers punctured, it was just, it was dude. It's like the it's like, it's like one of the, like if you could picture the worst scenario, that was like one of the worst scenarios. Right. And you know, this, this guy, he says, we, we gotta figure this out. We gotta clean it up. And he says to me, he is like, Hey man, you know what, this sucks, but it's just a situation that needs to be handled.

It's like, if I'm upset, it doesn't matter. Right. The situation's a situation. Right. Right. And I'm like, man, you know, that is such a wise perspective. BEC and, and it actually changed how I view problems. Believe it or not, because it doesn't matter if I'm upset or not the problems, the problem, the problems there.

It's gonna have to be dealt with no matter what my mind state is. So why not just accept it as the problem right. Handle it as the problem and not as a personal attack on me. Right, right.

Mike: yes. I mean, so there's a ton of value and virtue in that. Right. Um, and like you said, you know, being open, you have to be aware, right.

Self aware of who you are, what your tendencies are and be open minded to other people's perspective in order to have that type of situation where you gain that, that perspective from somebody else that, like you said, it could be minimally impactful. It could have no impact, or it could have a massive impact, like these opportunities for change, present themselves every single day in some capacity.

Right? Yeah. Yeah.

Corey: Yeah. And just for perspective, man, it was, uh, it was about $65,000 worth of material. Oh, that's it spread oh yeah. so great way to

Mike: start a new relationship with a new, new, new customer. Perfect. Um,

Corey: yeah. Yeah. So, um, but we handled it, we took care of it and you know, the, the client was, you know, actually, as a matter of fact, you know, again, another situation where we were looking at like, man, this is the worst thing can happen.

We got it cleaned up, we handled it. And the client said, you know what? You never know what kind of, um, people you're dealing with until something bad happens. And he is like, I've, I'm grateful that I'm working with you guys because I can see what kind of character you have now. Right. And I was like, great.

I have a lifelong client now. Yeah. You know what I mean? So, um,

Mike: hopefully the next one doesn't cost you a $65,000 accident to, to get into that situation.

Corey: but silver linings, the silver linings man, and, and you know what the distributor stepped up and, you know, we send him pictures, we send 'em everything and they were really great about it, man.

They're helping us out tremendously. That's awesome. So, um, Yeah. So, so yeah, it sucked. I mean, we're, you know, we're gonna lose some money on that one, but, um, you know, everybody came together. We, we handled the situation, everybody supported one another and it, you know, ended up being a shitty situation that turned out O you know, okay.

Yep.

Mike: Perspective. Speaking of silver linings, we're gonna go off script for a second here, even though there's not technically a script at all for this, this is kind of a spontaneous conversation, but silver lining's playbook with Bradley Cooper. One of my favorite movies. It's fantastic. That's great. I've seen it five or six times.

I mean, when he takes the Ernest Hemingway book and throws it out the window and starts berating his parents, about how shitty it was for Ernest Hemingway. to write the book the way he did. I gotta tell you, um, it did something to me, so, okay, fantastic. So. You mentioned that you in oh eight, you know, you guys were kind of in your family, was into buying properties, things like that.

Everyone knows the turmoil that resulted in that, that 2008 bubble. Um, you found yourself looking for a job and you said that you landed in a sales position in fitness.

Corey: Yeah, man. Um, so I, I was, I was newly sober at the time, uh, which I had a relapse. So if everybody's like counting the math and saying, wait, this doesn't match up.

Yes. I was sober at the time and I didn't have re relapse, but, uh, um, yeah, man, we were traveling around the country and helping gyms bring in more clients and then more importantly, training the staff on how to sell those, sell the gym memberships, but also present the gym in a way that more people would want to come and join and, and things like that.

So it was really kind of a cool. Um, detour in my life outside of doing construction to get a real perspective on some of the things that business owners struggle with. And then, you know, more importantly, you know, how to, how to structure campaigns in order to be able to sell so that you can bring customers into your business and, you know, even go even further, have a business that these customers will want to give you money basically, and buy whatever you're selling.

Yeah. Okay. It was a, was a valuable experience.

Mike: So how has that experience, how have you, have you used that? Have you parlayed that experience into what you do for your sales process now and your roofing company?

Corey: Yeah, a hundred percent. And I mean, that was my first introduction into, you know, what they, what we call in sales, uh, uh, objection handling.

Right. I didn't know. There was such a thing as objection, handling. so we had a, we, our, our objection handling strategy with that was called the, the bullets in the gun. Right. So we have, we had five bullets in our gun and it it's kind of a crude, it, you know, it's kind of a crude metaphor, but it, it really gave us a tool to actually help the people we train, remember those five points so that they can handle that objection so they can handle the objection.

Boom, boom, boom, boom. Systematically. Yep. Okay.

Mike: So when you, when you approach your sales process, do you have a sales process for, for each and every one of your sales reps that's defined? Uh,

Corey: I have a, I have such a detailed sales process that, um, we were just talking about it this morning to try to maybe simplify it a little bit because I, yes, I have a very detailed sales process.

We have a, we have a sales process that starts out at the initial call. So our admin that answers the phone, she had, she understands there's, she's a part of the sales process. Then the

Mike: hold on let's initial call. Let's not just glaze over that. Why is she an important aspect of the sales process?

Corey: Well, she's the first contact, right?

So she has to understand how to set up everybody else from the first phone call down the line. And she has to understand at least the second part of the sales process, the goal of the second part. So not only can she filter out and people that may, we might not be able to help, but she's also gonna be able to ask the relevant questions to get the information we need to put 'em in the next part of the process.

Mike: So first step is having live contact and qualifying that customer getting information that you need. Correct. Okay.

Corey: So the second step of that is the salesperson actually reaches out and we call that the pre-call right. And so the salesperson actually reaches out to the homeowner. now there's a couple things we need to make sure we're actually dealing with the property owner.

Right? We need to make sure that we can have access to the property. And number three, we need to make sure somebody's there so that we can facilitate the other part of the process, which is going out and meeting the client and assessing their needs and really digging into what they need, what they want.

Mike: Smart. What do you feel the most important qualifying question is when a prospective customer is considering choosing Southshore and you're going through that, those first two steps of your sales process.

Corey: Well, there that's a trick question, man, because there isn't one, there isn't one question. Important question.

I mean, it really is. It really depends on the situation. Right. And it really depends on the person and sort of their perspective. Right? I'll give you an example. There are some people that have never bought a roof before, and they've never dealt with a contractor. And so their perspective is gonna be a lot different than somebody that maybe has had owned a, you know, a few different homes.

They put it on a roof before. Maybe they've had a problem with their contractor. Maybe they love their contractor, but those two people are going to have completely different perspectives on the situation. So depending on, and that's maybe that's one of the most important is figuring out what that, what that buyer is and where they, what category they fit into.

Okay. Before we go into the rest of it, because that's gonna really dictate the questions that we ask next. Yeah. That's

Mike: that's really good insight. Did you always have an admin?

Corey: no. Year one, I was doing everything, man. I was. Answering the phone scheduling appointments, scheduling builds selling. I was doing everything, man.

Did

Mike: it, did you find it challenging to because you value that first interaction as you should? I think it's, I think it's a very undervalued. If we look at it at the macro level, I feel like it's a very undervalued aspect of the, of the Salesforce. What do you mean by that? Let's let's, let's say, what do you mean?

Well, you know, in my experience, I run a digital marketing agency and we listen to calls that come through to clients. And I think that, you know, a lot of individuals assume that like, calls are gonna be answered. Uh, they're gonna be handled correctly. They're gonna be, they're gonna even answering the phone with the right tone, right.

That first impression, right? Because you, there's a first impression of when I meet you in person. And then there's a first impression when you're making a phone call and that matters. That's that sets that sets the tone for the proceeding interactions. Right. Yep. Um, yep. So I, I think it's largely important, right?

And you valuing that so much, as I, as I stated you should, did you find it challenging to find somebody who matched your energy, um, that could handle that side of it enthusiastically with the right attitude, with your process? Cuz I've found that a lot of people struggle to find that office manager, that admin administrative assistant, you know, we can argue semantics on what that title is, but I find that a lot of people have struggled in finding that right person.

Corey: Yeah. I mean I, yes I did. Um, one of the biggest, one of the biggest things that I've learned over the time that I've been in, you know, operating is I didn't value that inter that first interaction as much as I do now, early on. Okay. Right. Because I learned that. I was losing a lot of people on the front end because of things that I was failing to do, meaning we would either people would either call and I wouldn't get to the, to the, to the call and, you know, they would go to voicemail and I would never be able to get 'em back on the phone or, um, you know, we didn't ask the right questions on the front end and we ended up turning somebody away or whatever the situation was.

So over the years developed, developed that process and developed that, um, the perspective of how important it is to get those people on the front end and have the appropriate, not only person, but questions and process to deal with those people on the front end. So, because I didn't value it and because I didn't really understand what I needed, I did struggle finding the right person because I didn't know exactly what I was looking for now, fast forward.

And when I realized what it was, and I knew exactly what I was looking for, what person I was looking for, it was much, much easier to find it because I was hiring for that particular person and not for the particular role, if that makes sense.

Mike: Yeah. I think that makes a lot of sense. And, and then you can clearly lay out what their job function is, what their expectation from you to that person is.

Right. Which is just such a crucial part of any successful relationship. And, you know, if we're talking about an owner to an office admin or to a sales rep, or you with your significant other, or a company with their customer, right. If we don't have expectations, as far as what we want out of someone else in order for that relationship to be perceived as, as good for both parties, Destined a hundred percent for, for failure, right?

Um, yeah, so that's, that's awesome, man. So you've got a great admin, right? So we're through two steps of the sales process. What does the rest of your process look like?

Corey: Yeah, I just, I want to just, I just wanna back up just a little bit on, on, on, on that. Um, so you hit the nail on the head. Okay. When I understood what I needed from that process, and I also understood what I needed from that person, I was able to go out and I was able to find that person that had the attributes that I knew I needed, let them know that I needed those attributes and then plugged them into that system in process with the attributes that they already had.

And that's, that is, I think why she's so successful because I wasn't expecting her to do something that was outside her character. Mm. You know what I mean? That's

Mike: brilliant. Yeah. And, and I think that would be easy

Corey: to miss. . Yeah. Yep. And, but yeah, I didn't know that until I smashed my face against the wall a bunch of times and couldn't figure out why it, wasn't why I wasn't getting what I needed.

Right. Well it's but it goes, well, it goes back to, it goes back to that personal responsibility and accountability, right? Like this is my, this is my problem to figure out, right. Not, not, not my

Mike: admins and being aware and reflecting, you know, to like, how is something like that gonna manifest itself? And maybe it's something where you're not closing a highest, a higher, a high enough percentage of your leads.

Right. And it's like, okay, so why is this happening? Right. And you could, whether it's a one man ban, or it's a 50 person company, if you're closing leads at 15 or 20%, there's a reason why. Right. So like now we can figure out, okay, let's back into and reflect why this is happening. Let's look at our data.

And

Corey: maybe unless you're advertising on Facebook, then your close, rate's gonna suck.

Mike: that? Notwithstanding, um, you know, so if you take a look at it, like, why does this happen? Is it, we don't have a good sales process. Do we not have the right people in the right seat from a sales perspective? Are the calls not being handled correctly at the onset?

Having the right people in the right seat is monumental when it, when it comes to trying to be successful. Right. So, um, yeah, dude, that's amazing. So you, you were aware of that you pivoted, right. Just as important. It is a plan. You gotta be able to pivot away from what the initial plan was as things change.

So let's talk about as your customers moving through that life cycle that they're gonna have with your company, what does the rest of it look like?

Corey: Yeah. So the next part is, you know, we're, we're turning these people over to the salesperson. Um, so they're on the schedule and our sales team's trained to, you know, I don't take, so I don't, I'm a lot different than most owners I've learned that you can't just allow your customers to dictate your schedule.

Right. You have to dictate your schedule to your customers. So Uhhuh what I did. Yeah. So what I did was I trained my sales guys. Like they don't, we don't take appointments until at least 10 or 11 o'clock in the, in the morning. Right. And people are looking at me like, well, you're crazy. The, the, the rationale behind that is, is that gives the sales team time to get organized in the morning, make their calls, make sure that they reach out to their, you know, appointments for the day and gives 'em time to, to, to.

organize what they need to complete throughout the day part. The big part of that is reaching out to their customers and making sure they do their pre-call and confirm those appointments. Mm-hmm right. So that's, that's the next part. And then we ask a few simple questions, you know, are you the homeowner, you know, what's going on that I can help you with, you know, what is, you know, when are you looking to complete this and depending on what they answer and, and some of the, some of the questions we have some other questions, making sure that they're going to be there.

And if they say, well, I'm not gonna be there cuz you get that a lot. Well, I figured you could just, you know, do whatever email quote. And then we explained to them email quote, yeah, email, email me the quote. Right. Um, and we explained to them, Hey, we need to do a thorough inspection. We wanna make sure that we don't miss anything, et cetera.

We'd really like somebody to be there. And so we want to make sure the homeowner's there at, at, at the, uh, at the property when we, when we do our inspection. Okay.

Mike: Yeah. That's that's really good. That's

Corey: that's that's the

Mike: next part of the cycle. Okay. So homeowner's gonna be there. They've answered the qualifying questions and then we get 'em on the schedule.

Rep a shows up and you just one call close. 'em right. No, sir.

Corey: Huh? No, sir. No, we do not one call close. How come? Um, so I get a lot of, I get a lot of shit for this, uh, in the roofing community, but it's, so it's almost impossible to do a one call close without, without being either a super prepared and super diligent.

Meaning you have both buyers there. You've done a lot of homework up front and you have a really outstanding process while you're there. Um, to do a one call close. Now it's important to note, I don't do insurance work. I don't, I don't do, I don't do any insurance work. Okay. This is all retail. And the reason that it's almost impossible to do a one call close, because the chances of both buyers being there while you're doing your inspection is almost impossible.

The other problem is, is that while you're doing your inspection and while you're engaging with the homeowner, if you're gonna one call close 'em, you're gonna take up so much of their time at that one sitting that they're, they're gonna they're they're gonna get fatigued and it's gonna be hard to close 'em without a hard close sales, you know, gimmicky process.

Okay. So over the years I've learned that we just do our homework on the site visit, meaning we do our roof inspection, we do our attic inspection and we do our homework on what. What the, our perspective client values, what they need and what their perspective is on this project overall. And then we set a follow up with them to do the fourth and final piece of the puzzle.

Mike: Gotcha. So you think it's very important to get in the attic, get someone on the roof?

Corey: Yeah. I mean, you, I can't tell you how many jobs we get because we go up in the attic and we find things that nobody else addressed with the homeowner, or we get up in the, we get up on the roof and we address a bunch of things. I mean, one of the things that's important to us is to really give the homeowner detailed account of why we're recommending full replacement and what's actually going on with their roof so they can feel comfortable with the, with their buying decision.

versus me just throwing a price at 'em and saying, Hey, you need to do this, right?

Mike: Yeah, yeah, no doubt about it. So you've had customers explicitly tell you, this is why we went with you.

Corey: We get it all the time. I mean, people even take the time to write that in their reviews. They're like, man, they were thorough.

They were diligent. They explained everything to us. And that's why we went with them. Even though there were more money.

Mike: Interesting. So being that that's a part of your process and being that people have explicitly told you, that's part of their, a big part, it seems of their decision making process. How were you able to handle that through throughout COVID, especially in the very beginning, did you guys struggle to get in front of people to get on the property?

Corey: Yeah, I mean, we just changed the way that we were doing it and we changed the way that we reached out to people. We would let them know that the inspection was, you know, contact free. Okay. Um, and you know that we didn't really, we didn't need them to, we didn't, we didn't need to come inside the. Um, if they weren't comfortable with us getting in the attic, we didn't need to, however, it was an important part of it.

And then we would just let them know that if we did miss something, then you know, there would be a, there would be an additional work order. Um, and people responded really well to it. Uh, and then what we started doing is, um, with, with our, um, with our appointment, we sent out an email that just explained the process and then also showed them that we do our follow ups via zoom and what, what zoom was and how zoom worked so that they were familiar with it.

When we asked them to set up a follow up via zoom and it was extremely

Mike: successful. So being proactive in setting expectations,

Corey: being proactive in setting expectations.

Mike: Nice dude. That's amazing. Yep. So what would you say? How many, how many leads do you guys run a day from the sales side?

Corey: Um, so that depends, man. I mean, I'm a, I'm a no more than two leads a day kind of guy. Hmm. And sometimes they run three, but three's, three's, three's a little much,

Mike: is it because you are allotment of time in the morning to get them prepared, organized, situated that you think two makes a, a good number. Two's a company.

Three is a crowd.

Corey: Two's a company. Three is a crowd. Well, one, you know, I, we live in Tampa, so traffic, all hours of the day is just obscene. So that's one of them. Um, the other thing is, is, you know, I have one of my sales guys. He always says, man, I just, I, I gotta love the one I'm with. Right. so I don't want to, I don't want to have them so crunched for time that they're not gonna give the attention and time to the homeowner that the homeowner deserves.

Look, one of the things we tell. Our, you know, prospects when we're out there was we, we remind them that they're about to spend a lot of money. Right. And we do that because we want them to understand like, this, this isn't something you just need to be cavalier about. Like, you're about to spend a lot of money.

We really need to figure out what your needs and wants are. And we really need to figure out what's important to you as a buyer when you're hiring and vetting a contractor to work on the biggest investment of your lifetime. Right? Yeah. And so in order for us to do that, we need to be able to spend some time with them and we need to be able to give them attention.

If we're running a bunch of appointments, then we, we might not be able to do that. And I don't want the guys to rush through

Mike: that. Gotta love the one you're with. I, I love that

Corey: I did too. When, when he said it, I was like, that's brilliant. And I love it. And what it did was help me understand or help me realize he cares, truly understood

Mike: what we were trying to do.

That's uh, what did he sell last year? What did he

Corey: sell it last year? Uh, oddly enough, man. He's only been with me since March. Wow. Okay. Yep. He doing well. He's doing, he's doing well. You know, he's, he's such a kindhearted person that he struggles with. Uh, he struggles with the closing sequences because he feels like he doesn't want to be a high pressure guy.

And what he doesn't understand is that our closing sequence is closing sequence. Isn't high pressure. So he could be doing better where he lets people, um, he, he lets people off the hook and I know that sounds bad, but he lets people off the hook too easy. Okay. So we're working with him to be able to, to, to, to close people in a little bit better, but you.

He, he finishes about 150, 170 K a month, which isn't terrible, but he could be doing a lot better. Okay.

Mike: Well, that's like you said, you acknowledge that it's your opportunity to coach him through right. And, and make what's good. Better. Yeah. So kudos. Yeah. And

Corey: by the way, being a, being a million dollar producer in my company is unacceptable.

Mike: Hot take coming from Corey. Okay. so where, what did you do year one revenue wise? What did you, what are you on pace to do this year?

Corey: Uh, year one, uh, did about 1.6 million and that was me doing everything. Um, we are on track right now to if, if things stay status quo, which they're not going to, I have a bunch of big deals in the works, but, um, We're gonna do about 10 million this year.

Mike: Wow. Okay. What do you attribute? What are the main components of the recipe that is Sal shore roof year is right now that has gotten you, I mean, that's incredible growth year over year, right? So it's insane. Do you feel like it's a system and process thing that has, has made that possible? Is it a leads thing?

Is it having the right sales guy? What is it for you that has made the biggest impact and enabled you to scale at that pace?

Corey: Uh, yes. To all of the questions. Right. Got it. I mean,

Mike: well, there's a lot of guys out there that, you know, they, you know, they're looking right. They might be year one, they might be year two.

And they're looking to take that next step. So I guess the better question is like, what advice do you have for them through your experience to actualize that,

Corey: you know, this is another hot take and, you know, I, I. I, I really struggle with trying to, trying to change my perspective on this, but there is no substitution for experience like none, right? I mean, you know, getting mentors and coaches and all of that stuff is great. Uh, and it's extremely valuable and extremely helpful, but there's no, there's just no getting around having to go through and gain experience.

Okay. So I think number one is I've got a lot of experience in the business. I've got a lot of experience in what, you know, what I learned when I went to work for, you know, the sales marketing company. And then even more than that, like I thought that I had a Bulletproof system when I opened my company.

and my experience was like, I really had to like modify a lot of things that I thought were gonna work. So, you know, yeah, man, I was not in, so in love with any of my ideas that I wasn't willing to like, change them, sit down, reflect, figure out why things aren't working and try to map out what the next, what the next thing is.

And the other thing that I, that I've done is I've really created an environment in my company where I, we collaborate, man. You know, I talk to everybody and I find out what's working for them and what's not working for them. And I, I map that out and I ask them, you know, what they, what, what, what they think I could do better as a, as a leader and as an owner.

And, and, you know, I, I map that out and I make those changes. And I think even more than that, like I go through and I write all these things out. And I developed these processes and I run 'em by the team and we either add things or we take things out that aren't gonna work and we just continually try to refine what we're doing to make it easier and more streamlined.

At the end of the day, we all know that the goal is two things. One to have a good life balance, work life balance, where we don't have a bunch of pissed off customers and two is to provide outstanding customer service. So that makes everybody's life easier and people buy from us.

Mike: Yeah. That's that's that makes a lot of sense.

That's really good. How important is culture within a company?

Corey: I think that's a, I think that's a buzzword that a lot of people don't understand and elaborate. So. I have a really close friend who works for a company. He's a, he's a therapist, right? And he works for a company where there's nine therapists that work for this company and the person that owns the company.

She said that she wants to have a collaborative culture. She wants to have a culture where people feel safe. There's no negativity, et cetera, et cetera. And so what she does is she has these meetings and she like, you know, does all these things, these team building exercises and all these things to try to build this culture.

Mm-hmm . But the problem is, is the fundamental things that undermine culture are lack of trust in your leaders. Right? And so the reason I say that is because she continually does things that undermine what she's trying to do from an operational standpoint and from a trust standpoint. And that's why I say, I don't think people understand that, uh, understand the, the buzzword culture because you can't build a culture.

Unless the people on your team trust you, that has to be number one mm-hmm . And so I think the reason that the people work for me trust me, is because they know that I'm willing to get into the trenches with them and work alongside them, to make sure that what I'm telling them. And what I ask them to do is the right thing for everybody.

And even more than that, like I've been in their shoes even down to the installers that work for me, which by the way, that's the other piece that a lot of people miss in the roofing industry, they talk about building a culture, but they subcontract out everything and they never build any continuity with the labor side.

And so therefore they can never really get it right, because they don't have any consistency on that part of it. Mm. So all my guys are w two, they all work for me. They're all my employees and I'll get up on the roof with them. And if there's stuff that's not right, I'll show them what I want and I'll show 'em how to do it.

And they know that I've done this before and I value them and I value them enough to make sure that they're happy and they're comfortable as well. So I guess going back to, what do I mean by a lot of people don't understand, like actually how to build the culture you have to, it has to be from all the way from your labor, from your lowest paid, you know, what you view to be the most inconsequential position, which is a mistake because they all have a high impact on your company all the way through to the leader, to the owner and making sure that the leader and the owner, um, helps the people understand that everything we're doing is in the interest of trying to make sure that.

They can do their job well and they're comfortable and they feel valued. And so that's really what I focus on is looking at things from everybody's vantage point all the way down and how can I show them that I value them and I want them to have the resources and the, um, support to, to complete their job as easy and as best as possible.

Mike: Yeah, I think, I think that's a, that's a really interesting point. Um, and I, I agree with a lot of that and it's, it's one of those things where, whether it's installers, whether it's sales people, whether it's project managers, I found consistently that a lot of folks have issues retaining, finding too, but retaining good employees.

Right. And I think, you know, There, I'm sure there's varying degrees on what culture entails and how to get there. Right? What the, what the roadmap looks like to having a, a strong culture. But I think that the more, the more people enjoy what they do are bought into that. They're making an impact right? On in this instance, the homeowner, like they're providing a good experience.

They believe in what you guys are doing as a company. And the products that you guys are installing, the less susceptible you con you become to, I'm gonna leave here, cuz I'm gonna make a dollar an hour more over there. Cause there's always gonna be somebody else that will outbid you and pay just a little bit more.

Right. In theory. Sure. Like, and, and absent of having that sticky relationship to where somebody actually enjoys what they do. Me personally, I left a job where I made really good money, um, because you know, the, the culture, what I wanted out of the company wasn't necessarily there. Right. And it was a big risk for me to take.

Um, but at the end of the day, when you get past whatever that dollar amount is that you can live comfortably and do things that you want, how big is the correlation between those, those additional funds, that additional disposable income and your happiness. And I think that a lot of people would find as they start making more money.

There's not a strong correlation be after being able to provide for your basic needs and, and having some semblance of, you know, money to do some things that you want outside of basic needs. There's not a huge correlation between that additional money that you're gonna make and that happiness. So, yeah, I agree having, having that.

Culture, however we wanna define it can make a huge impact on your company. And, and it seems, it seems trivial, right? Like make people feel valued, make 'em feel like they're a part of the process and that they matter. Um, it, it seems like something that's just intuitive, but I think that unless you have attention to that and have a concerted effort consistently, it's easy for some of those activities or conversations that create that warm and fuzzy feeling for your employees to kind of go by the wayside.

Right. Because we get so busy running our business on a day to day basis. Um, what are, what are your thoughts on that?

Corey: Yeah, I mean, even down to the, you know, even down to the way that we schedule appointments for our, you know, for our reps, right. I tell them, you know, so when, when, when I hire my sales reps, which they're all a hundred percent commission, I mean, I pay them.

I, I pay them when we're training 'em which a lot of roofing companies don't. So I give them paid training, uh, you know, we call it the training wheels and I'll even allow them while I'm paying them to go out and write deals and still give them commission on their deals because I wanna set them up early on and I want them to make money because I want 'em to see the value in what they're doing.

Right. I know that I'm gonna lose a little bit of money on the, on the front end with, um, but that's okay because I want the right people in, in place. And so I, that's sort of how I help them dip their toe in to understanding that I'm really out to help them make money. Because at the end of the day, man, you know, you hear this a lot.

And I, and I, and I think some people really believe in it. And I think some people just say it, but when you help others win, the, the natural thing is, is everybody's gonna win. Like, so when my sales guys make money, guess what you make money. The company makes money. Yeah. And I make money. So. we do, we do, what's called a, a hierarchy of needs when, uh, I'm sorry, hierarchy of responsibilities.

It comes off of, you know, Maslow's hierarchy of needs. So, and, and so, so we do the hierarchy of responsibility when they start with me and I, and, and we go through and I explain to them what the hierarchy of responsibility is in this company and how everything we do is built off of that. And do you know what the number one thing on the hierarchy is money.

They make money and I make money. , that's what we're doing here. And I don't, I don't try to, I don't try to hide it and I don't try to repackage it. I don't try to do anything. I was like, you're working here so you can make money. You're taking a risk being commissioned sales so that you can enjoy your life.

You can structure your, you know, your, your, uh, you know, your calendar so that you have freedom, you know, all those different things, your, your, your high risk. But also high reward, right? So let's operate under, under that understanding. And here's how we're gonna do that. So, and I tell them like, look, I don't, we don't schedule night and weekend appointments and why don't we schedule night and weekend appointments?

Well, because I want them to have the flexibility to do that if they want to or not, if they don't want to what I've learned in this business. And I'm gonna go back to what I said is you cannot allow your customers to dictate your schedule. Right? If they see value in the service you provide, they will make time to meet with you.

It has to be mutually beneficial. So that's another way that they feel valued because I don't dictate that they don't spend time with their family on nights and weekends. So again, it goes, you know, you talk about building culture. It goes to. Them really on a deep level feeling like you value them in their time.

And you're not just saying things or you're not just, you know, doing a company fishing trip or you're not just, you know, whatever it is, right. Mm-hmm, they really see from like how the company operates, that you value them and value their time. And because of that, they want to be part of the organization.

So now I'm gonna go a little bit further. And you talked about recruiting earlier. Well, when you have people that love where they work and they feel a part of, and they feel valued and all of those different things, they'll go out and they'll find people for you. And so everybody else that works for me other than the first three people that I hired, I haven't put out an ad.

I haven't done any of that stuff. The people that work for me have gone out and found people for me and brought them into the team. Uh, and. It. It's just, it's crazy how, you know, we talk about attraction rather than promotion. And when you have that, like when you have that attraction and people want to come work for you, they want to be a part of what you, what you're building.

And, you know, I tell everybody that comes to work for me. I'm like, look, I want you to understand this is a democratic dictatorship, right?

I'm gonna listen to you. I'm gonna value your opinion. And we're going to create, you know, we're gonna continue to refine our processes, built on the feedback that you guys give me. But the, at the end of the day, you're going to do things the way that I, I dictate they're done, you know, people, uh, do, uh, market research by going out and talking to customers or potential customers.

About their service, right. And they ask 'em questions and they get feedback so that they can change things on how they present their product or service to potential customers. Sure. Well, I take that same strategy and I do it internally with the people that work for me so that I can make sure that it's a good place for

Mike: them to work.

So you're taking the pulse. So how frequently are you doing that

Corey: constantly, man. Um, and I'm even, you know, when, when, when I, when I notice somebody's stressed out or something's going on with them, that's one of the things we sit down and we talk with them, what's going on? What can we do? What can we help?

How can we support you? And if it's a matter of like, Hey, we need to help you learn how to manage your time and your schedule better. We'll do that. If it's, you know, there are continually issues that we need to solve. Um, and it's a failure from one of our processes. Okay. Then we're gonna diagnose that.

We're gonna, we're gonna patch that up and we're gonna create a. We're gonna either pivot or we're gonna create a new process to make sure that those things don't continue to happen, because I don't want you to continually be under stress because that's a really good way for you to learn how to hate your job.

And then you're not gonna do your job. Well, you're not gonna service our customers well, and it's just a negative impact all the way through. Yeah. Huh. So constantly is the answer to the question constantly, constantly taking the pulse. So

Mike: do you have a system in place where you're doing it weekly? Are you doing it monthly?

Like how do you ensure that you find the time to do this? Mm-hmm

Corey: yeah, I mean, um, I have, you know, I have meetings with the, uh, with the admin side every week. Right. And we have our agenda for our key metrics that we take a look at to make sure that we're doing well. And one of 'em is if we're having sustained issues in a certain area, right.

That's one of the key metrics that we look at. It. And then we look at how that affects the team going forward. Right. Does it affect the sales team? Does it affect the managers, whatever it is. And then if it does, then what can we do to, to alleviate that? Uh, and then I have a, I have a meeting with the sales guys every week and, you know, that's one of the things we talk about, what are you guys seeing?

What are you struggling with? What can we do to help? Uh, and that's really how we start out the meeting. Um, and then, you know, and then we go through the stuff that we need to go through in the sales meeting. So. Um, yeah, we, we do have a system in place for that. I think

Mike: that's really good. And, you know, even if it's something you , you had referenced a, uh, a democratic dictatorship, right.

So I think it's important, you know, you set that expectation that's important. Uh, but checking in and letting, letting employees and team members and engage in cathartic behavior, right. Talking about how they feel openly, uh, even if it doesn't influence change every single time, maybe sometimes it does.

Maybe sometimes it does. And I think just you hearing them out and having that open door policy bodes really well for them feeling as if they're valued, which they are valued. Right? Yeah. Um, but they, yeah. Sometimes people are valued and they don't feel valued. Like that happens. That's a thing. Right. Um, so yeah, that's a, that's a, that's a good way of tackling that.

So I'm glad it's working out for. .

Corey: Yeah. And you know, sometimes people get caught in this, you know what what's called a negative feedback loop. Right. So they get stressed about something and it might not be work related. Mm-hmm , you know, they might get stressed about something and then, you know, something happens at work or, you know, there's something going on with us or, you know, and look it's construction.

So there's, you know, things crop up all the time. Sure. I mean, there's just, there's no avoiding there. You, you have to have thick skin to work in this industry. And I tell the, I tell everybody that works for me. Like, listen, you have to have thick skin to work in this industry because things are gonna happen.

It just does. But you know, understanding people can get caught in those negative feedback loops and then taking their temperature and talking with them and saying, Hey man, what's going on? What can we do to help you? And digging into, you know, getting them out of that ne negative feedback loop is so critical so that it doesn't continue to compound.

And then, you know, things just get worse and then it's just a downward cycle from there. So, you know, making sure you take their temperature, you know, as soon as you see that they're stressed is, is critical. And the only way you can do that is to stay involved with your team.

Mike: Right. That's a really good point.

So your team feels valued. You've got a sales process, you're on pace to do 10 million, which is incredible. So what do you do you, what are your main lead sources? You do a lot of Google, right? I know that, right. so you just turn on the faucet for Google and then, you know, give them leads all the time and then that's that right?

They sell the leads cuz you got a good process. Is that,

Corey: is that it? Yeah. Yeah. That's it. I mean, that's all we do. Bullshit.

Mike: what are, what are the, what are some of the things that you do outside of inbound marketing and what are the importance of those?

Corey: Yeah, so, you know, I mean, you handle our digital marketing and you know, that, uh, last summer we had an absurd amount of leads coming through Google guaranteed.

Mm-hmm I mean, absurd. Right. Um, and then that stopped and I called you freaking out what did I tell you? you're like, it's cyclical, man. It's cyclical. Right. So, um, so what that did was, you know, that helped me really understand that, like you just cannot be Bo Holden to one particular lead source. And so we had, you know, Mike and, you know, you and I had talked about, you know, doing some other things, maybe coming up with some other strategies and really employing like a holistic view.

How we get our customers and, and, and what that's gonna look like. My problem was is I was, I was so fat and happy with what was coming in from Google. Right. That I just, I didn't do anything about it. I'm just like, Hey yeah, yeah, we'll do it. We'll do it. We'll do it. Well, when that happened, I was like, oh shit, I better get on some of this other stuff and, and, and really develop it.

And so, you know, what, what we do now. And, and, and I had been doing some of it. I can't say that we weren't doing any of it, but I wasn't really put, you know, putting emphasis on those other areas. Right. And so the two that have really been unbelievably productive for us is one of 'em is going out and pursuing.

Partnerships with other industries that can be a great referral and lead source for us. The first one being, believe it or not insurance, brokerage firms and not in the, not in the way. Right? I see your, your, your, your phase, but not in the way that I'm asking them to help me, you know, file insurance claims and all that stuff.

Cause I'm gonna be honest with you. I am completely, um, anti what's going on in the insurance industry and I get a lot of shit about it, but I think it's being really heavily abused and it's starting to, we're starting to see the results of that and it's going to change the industry. And a lot of these guys are starting to complain about it and blame the carriers.

I'm gonna leave it at that. So, um, we partner with them in, in the other way. Where we want to help them. If they have a client that has an issue, we want the broker to know that we can be a trusted ally for them. That's going to give them a fair, honest assessment. We're gonna document everything for them.

And we're going to report everything to them so that they know that whatever's going on. They can see it for themselves and we teach them and we train them what to look for, what we're looking for and what the results are of all of that stuff. So we truly partner with them. We educate them on, you know, what, where, where we really fit to help them service their customers better and help them keep their money.

Okay. So, so that's the first one and it's been unbelievably successful. Um, the other way is realtors, uh, real estate brokerages, contractors hate real estate. They're the worst. They just want a free inspection. they just, they just want something for free or they want the low cost, whatever. And it's just like anybody else, you just have to teach them and educate them on.

Really, if they're looking for the cheapest, how that's actually against their best interest and why using somebody like us and how we can be a good partner for them and why it's beneficial to them teaching and training them with that, it's been extremely successful as well. So you just have to, again, it's just about like earlier we talked about expectations and relationships and really understanding, you know, what the other one brings to the table.

That's all that it is. And so that's been extremely successful for us as well.

Mike: Wow. So now you're against the entire restoration industry or are you just, do you feel like there's abuse in a, a percentage of it? No,

Corey: I, no, no, no. I'm no, don't, don't, don't, don't, don't misconstrue that I'm against the abuses in the restoration

Mike: industry.

Got okay. Yes.

Corey: Yep. Okay. Again, I've been in the roofing industry since 1993. Okay. And I've, I've watched or in construction and I've watched a lot of things happen and I've watched, what's happened to this industry and the micro industries that have popped up as a result of some of the things that are being done and it's abusive.

It just is. And so we're gonna see things will be in, in five to seven years, things will be completely different and we can't blame anybody, but the industry itself for what is happening. And I'm just gonna leave it at that.

Mike: Well, we'll revisit this in five to seven years and see if your prediction comes true.

Yeah. We'll, ,

Corey: we're already starting to see it, man. I mean, the writing's

Mike: on the walls. Gotcha. So you found these ways to supplement. So I want to circle back to what Corey said about being fat and happy and how it's I guess at that point, it's hard to see the forest or the trees, right? um, yeah, he did have someone that brought these concerns to him before the point of this flipping, uh, several times, uh, yeah, spoil alert.

It was me, but Corey, he did a good job starting to move the needle initially. Right. But then what I find is it, it, it is challenging when everything is great. It's great. And until it's not right. And then when you have a situation like Google guaranteed, where the rug got pulled out, so to speak, it's too late.

Anyone in sales knows that it takes time to build that pipeline, right. To have a consistent flow of opportunities. And I I'm sure there's some exceptions, but for the most part, when you're selling something other than girl scout cookies where it's a quick transaction yes or no, like you have to have a robust pipeline because only percentage of those people are gonna say yes.

Right. So we can't wait till it comes to the point. that somebody pulls out, cripples us from one of our main lead sources to start doing those supplement supplemental activities that are gonna generate leads. And I've seen it. And you've been, it's paid dividends to the N degree since you've, you've implemented that.

And I know that it I've seen firsthand through clients, how challenging that can be. You know, sometimes you're working 10 hour days, sometimes you're working 15 hour days, and there's a million things that you have to try to systematically work through and, you know, doing shit like organizing a direct mail campaign or figuring out landing pages and bios for each one of your sales reps.

Like those never feel like they're at the top of the priority list, nor should they be is what we feel. But if we consistently push these things down to the bottom of the list, they never get accomplished. Right? Yep.

Corey: So, so. Yeah. I mean, luckily, you know, we've been working together for a while and we've, we've had this, these conversations.

I can't even tell you how many times, but the thing that was really beneficial to me is I did have the framework in place already. Yes. Right. And we were slowly like, okay, we're doing this, we're doing that. But again, you know, we were getting so many leads that, you know, my guys were booked, you know, two weeks out run in 10, 10 appointments a week that I, it didn't, there wasn't really any, you know,

Mike: Urgency

Corey: desire, not desire urgency.

There was, yeah, there was no urgency to, to, to, to do that stuff. And then when, you know, and then when we had to thank God we had that framework in place and we just had to, we had to really dial it in. So I'm gonna tell you what the second, what the second part of that has been is we've created a really good and, and I'll be honest, man.

I I've taken some, some things that other people have talked about in strategies that they've used that have been successful. And we figured out how to combine them all to really dominate where we're working. Right. I mean, we have some, we have some, uh, neighborhoods around where we do a lot of work and we own 'em.

I mean, we, we literally own these neighborhoods. I mean, so much so that like we'll, we'll end up doing like seven houses in a row, like back to back to back to back to back to back to back. Right. I mean, it's just, it's crazy. So. We go out. First thing we do is when my guys sign a contract, we go out, we drop a yard sign, but more than that, we go out and we give our first touch to the homeowners in the vicinity of that house of where we're gonna be doing work.

So we have touch number one, before we even get into the neighborhood, just to basically, you know, plant the seed to kind of keep out, keep an eye out. And it's a very well worded, well, crafted first touch really gets people thinking and we, we actually get a lot of calls off of it. Then we have our second touch where we're in the neighborhood.

Again, I have my own guys, so we have wrapped trucks. We have flags that, you know, feather flags, we put out all my guys are wearing Southshore shirts and, uh, and we have these tents out too, that we put out. So like, I mean, you can't miss us while we're building the job. Right. And while we're building the job, we have touch number two, where we go and we interact with those same people that we, um, did in touch.

Number one, just to, and it's, again, it's another well crafted offer that we wanna send people to our reps landing page so that they can look at the landing page and they can, um, capitalize on the offer. And then after we build the job, which I am unbelievably neurotic about what my job sites look like, right?

Because if your job site isn't clean, if it's not well branded, and when the people driving by that, you're asking them to say, Hey, look at me, look at me if we're not doing things well at that point, well, then I'm really asking them to highlight my problems and not look at how well we're doing it. Right.

So that's a fact. So, so that's, that's, that's a critical part of this, right. So, um, I'm asking them to pay attention to us. So I better make sure that what they're paying attention to is appealing. Okay.

Mike: Um, yeah. You're not gonna go on a dating app and put all your flaws on your profile, right.

Corey: right. You're not, yeah, exactly.

Yeah. You're not gonna put the worst picture of you. You possibly can, right? Yeah. So that's, that's a good analogy. Right. Um, and then, uh, after we get done, we have a third touch with a last chance offer, uh, through direct mail. And I gotta, you know, I gotta give it's, I, I gotta give a shout out to dope marketing because they, they built a better mouse track, man.

They really did. And they've made it easy for, you know, companies to

Mike: do that shameless plug from Corey to dope marketing. Check him out. My guy, David Carol. .

Corey: Yeah, so, uh, they, they built a better mouse trap. And so we use direct mail to, to reach out to them, uh, with an offer with a last chance offer. And so, um, that's the second, that's the second part.

And then the third part is, uh, referral programs and really, um, really doing a good job to try to get referrals. It's, it's a really tricky thing to do. And it's a really hard thing to do, especially in something like roofing. But, um, and we're still working through trying to refine that. I mean, Mike and I have come up with a bunch of different ideas and we've tried 'em and some stuff works, some stuff doesn't work.

Uh we're we're employing some technology now to try to, to try to, to capture more people with an easier way for, to track that and stuff like that. So it's a tough thing to do, but we keep working on it. We keep. And we do get a lot of referrals and, and I'll tell you, so I moved one of my sales guys, my highest producing sales guy into the sales manager position, which was really scary to do.

Um, I haven't given him one single lead in three months and he still outsells everybody from referrals by a lot every single month. So that's just a Testament to what we're doing in terms of the referrals, reaching out, partnering up, what that actually does from a residual, uh, you know, lead lead basis.

And so from that, I know that what we do is working really, really, really well because he does it 100% of the time, really, really well. And he continues to get referral work crazy. My second highest closing sales guy, same thing. I give him three leads a week. and he ends up selling number two or number one every month with taking the least amount of, um, company supplied leads.

So it works really, really well. If, if, if these guys do it.

Mike: Yeah, I actually, I made a piece of content yesterday. That'll be forthcoming soon. Um, but it was exactly that is that, you know, I own a marketing agency. I benefit from people coming to me and saying, Mike, how can you help me generate more leads?

But I am adamant that you should not solely give your, your sales rep leads provided by the company. I, it, it creates an entitlement mindset. For those individuals, cuz again, shit hits the fan and lead drop lead volume drops by 50% for whatever reason. And it could, it could be a mirror of reasons why now it becomes a situation where you've got the, an entitled rep who doesn't wanna go out and get dirty and do the hard work.

They don't want to hunt and you can't blame them for that. Right? Like holding ourselves accountable. We've created that scenario to where they don't feel the need to it's like paying your teenager, their allowance every week and they're for not doing their chores. Right. And then six months later they're gonna resent the shit outta you.

When you tell 'em they gotta actually start doing the, taking out the garbage and, and sweeping the floor and emptying the dishwasher because now they've expected with, with no output that they're gonna receive their allowance.

Corey: Yeah. I mean, you know, this is, this has really kind of changed my perspective on this.

I always thought that, you know, coming from being a sales guy, you know, I always thought that, you know, Hey. I want to, I wanna give these guys leads. I wanna make their job easy, et cetera, cetera, but you're a hundred percent right, man. I mean, unless you, unless you help them go out and help them understand how to develop this themselves as well.

And you know, the thing about this is that when you give them the ability to do that, like you're, you're really teaching them a skill. Oh yeah. To make them more comfortable. And the, the thing, the, the really interesting thing about this. So we all think we, we always think that Google leads are like the highest intent leads, cuz they went out and they searched for you.

Right? These referral leads are like 10 times better than Google leads. You do not get a higher intent buyer. Somebody that is senior work or comes from somebody that's done work with you. That's really, really happy. Sure. They're reaching out to you based on that recommendation and. And they have a need, right?

So they are so qualified. It's not even funny. If you can't close that if you can't close that sale, you should probably get into a different role because you suck at selling.

Mike: She, so, and I'll tell you, I'm one of the guy that bangs the drum, like Google is the highest intent lead. But with that being said, that's that for me is excluding repeat customers, referral work.

Right. You know, you should be able to close 80% of those. No problem. Um,

Corey: I'm going to, I'm gonna give you the caveat to this though. Okay. You, so as an owner and as a leader, what I take really, really, really seriously also is making sure that my reps have a good solid company that will fulfill what they promise.

They're customers we will do. Yeah. Because if there is no continuity between what you're asking your salesperson to tell your potential clients and what you actually deliver, if there's, you know, if there's asymmetry there, that's gonna be a real problem. Mm-hmm yeah. So, so that's the other piece of it.

Just like, you're not gonna put your worst picture on a profile dating app, right? You, if, if you're, if you're going after these high intent leads from referrals and all that stuff, you better fulfill. Oh

Mike: yeah. Oh yeah. So what is the, what is going on? everybody keeps getting these manufacturer letters for increase, right?

Like when does it stop? What do you, where do you, how do you see this playing out? It's it's never

Corey: gonna stop, man. I mean, you know, it's, it's funny. I see in the roofing groups on Facebook and all that, they're like, oh my God, it's a, there's a, there's another manufacturer's. , you know, what that tells me is you have a, really a, you have a, a really poor understanding of the industry as a whole, uh, but B um, you have a really, really, really poor understanding on how to position that to your customers, right?

This is, it's always been like this. It's going to continue to happen. Never in the history of ever has a manufacturer, given you a price decreased notice, right. It just doesn't happen. So you, you know, it is what it is, man. And one of the thing, it actually helps us sell because I tell people like, and we market this, like it's never gonna get as cheap as it is right now.

You better do it now.

Mike: Isn't that just salesy though. It's a sales gimmick and won't, they perceive it that way. Okay.

Is there ever any pushback from, from customers.

Corey: Let me ask you this, what, what would the pushback be that you're

Mike: just trying to close me?

Corey: Well, that might be true. And, and we might own that say, yeah, I mean, look, this is what we do. This is, this is, but I want you to understand this is, this is a mutually beneficial pitch here, right?

Because I want you to get in as you know, at, at these prices. Yes. We're a for profit company and yes, this is our business. That's no secret, right? But this, this is mutually beneficial. You're gonna get the benefit of having it at this price point. And also you're gonna get the benefit of having a, a great company, do this for you that you already need, or you can wait and I'd love to help you then too.

Mike: Gotcha. And then you could talk about how many price increases have happened in the last 6, 12, 24 months, right?

Corey: Hundred percent. And, you know, look, I'm not, I'm not using this as leverage. I'm just purely stating facts here.

Mike: Yeah. It puts people in a challenging position when prices of things go up. I think consumers are naturally kind of go on the defense right of, well, you're just trying to make more money off me or you're, if you're setting that expectation, you're just trying to close me.

But I think there is a, a certain tack that you can take to be transparent about why it's happening and steer them away from feeling. Cause again, perception's reality, right? And if their, their perception is that you're just doing it to close them, you're likely not gonna get the business. And maybe it was a good customer.

Maybe it wasn't, but you're not gonna have that opportunity. So I think, you know, understanding that and, and having some talking points about historical numbers and what has happened, maybe that's a really good segue to that. Well,

Corey: you know, the, the, I think the caveat to this before you even have the conversation with this customer or potential customers establishing the need beforehand, if you don't establish that need beforehand, then the con the conversation's gonna seem disingenuous.

Right? But if you've, if you've established that need and you've already had that conversation up front and you both have agreed that there's a need there. Now you can have a totally open upfront conversation and be super transparent with them.

Mike: Do you guys put it in your quotes that it's subject to material increase or anything like that?

Corey: There's an acceleration clause in everything that we get that we do because the, the, the material costing has been so volatile that, you know, and we let people know that like, Hey, listen, you know, I actually was just pitching a, a big commercial deal. Uh, they wanted a certain type of roof covering and I said, okay, I can do this, or I can do this.

Right. I can do this and I can get you built. And I can almost guarantee pricing for you, or we can wait when we can do this. And I can give you the acceleration whenever we get the material delivered in 12 months, which one do you want to do? There you go. So

Mike: you're setting the expectation. Crazy. so what's

Corey: next for Southshore?

Yeah. Uh, what's next for Southshore, man? Um, I am just gonna continue refining what we do. I, I don't really want to grow past where we're at right now. Um, I just, I just don't, I don't need to, um, so I really want to just refine what we're doing. Continue to make things easier and better for the people that work for me become more efficient and, um, just do a lot more efficient

Mike: man, a lot more efficient.

And with doing those things that you just highlighted your bottom line will probably become more robust as well. Right? Yeah. That, that

Corey: net profit number is the one that, that I'm more interested in. Yeah. Than that growth than that gross. You know, the gross, the gross is cute to tell people, oh, I do 15, 20 million.

Okay, cool. I wanna make the same amount of money you make on that 15, 20 million doing 10 and enjoying my life. Mm.

Mike: And we'll leave it at that. That is a key takeaway that I think Warren's, uh, significant consideration when running a business pay attention to how much money you're actually putting in your pocket.

Don't, don't become fixated on the, I would call vanity stats and saying, Hey, look, I did this much revenue. Cuz if somebody else is doing half as much in, you know, gross revenue and they're more profitable, they're dealing with less headaches. They can go fishing more. They can do all these great things that we wanna do, whatever that is.

And that'll vary from person to person that is, that's a life I wanna live. Right. except I don't like fish. No, I'll leave you. Cause I don't like putting the fish out, taking the fish off the hook. It freaks me out. So hopefully I didn't lose

Corey: viewers. I'm gonna, yeah. I'm gonna leave you with this man. It is, it is surprising.

It is. No I'm it's it's shocking to me. How many people I talk to, because look, I'm an open book. You know, if guys new in the industry that, you know, they message me and they have questions. I mean, there's a lot of 'em that I'll, I'll spend time and help with them. I'll give 'em my perspective, because I want people to be good at this.

I, you know, it's, I don't feel like, like I have a lot of people in my area, other roofing contractors that I'm friends with and I've made friends with them because I don't perceive them as competition. I perceive them as other guys in the industry that do really well for people. And I want the cream to rise to the top, but it's shocking to me how many people don't know their numbers and they don't know how to identify zero in where the problem really lies so that they can do what they need to correct it.

And they get frustrated and then they start beating their head against the wall or even worse. They start, you know, chastising the people that work for 'em and they don't put solutions in place. if you own a business specifically in the construction industry and you are not solution minded and go even further than that, to be able to identify where the problem is.

So you can put, employ that solution. You're going to hate your life. Mm. It is going to be a never ending stream of problems, catastrophes and putting out fires. And that's where these contractors say, man, this is this isn't worth it. Or I'm always working in the business or whatever. So if you don't first take the vantage point of understanding how to be solution minded, and then more than that, understand how to put key metrics in place to identify where the problems are.

So you can solve them and put solutions in place. It's gonna be, it's gonna be a tough road, man. It really is.

Mike: Yeah. I, I agree that those things are very, very important. Um, As I thought you would, you came by, we appreciate you stopping into the mission control podcast, dropped a ton of knowledge, um, and experience.

And, and we are definitely grateful for that. Anything else before we, uh, before we head out,

Corey: no, man, you've been a key role. You know, you've played a key role in, in the growth and, you know, the strategies and things like that. And so I don't want you to, I don't want you to lose sight of, you know, oh, you know, we've done a great job, but we've, we've done a great job cause we have some really good partners, man.

So, um, you've been a, you know, thank you too. You've been a key role in helping us. Grow and, and stay on track with, with the trajectory as well. So I appreciate

Mike: that. Absolutely. Well again, thanks for stopping by. Hopefully you all watching have, uh, gained a lot from this conversation and, uh, we'll be back soon.

Sustainable Growth & Free Leads For Your Roofing Company w/ Matt Danskin of Restoration Referral System Welcome to the Mission Control Podcast! Your host Michael Stearns has many years in the digital marketing industry, so he has many wins and failures to share on the show. In today's episode, Michael has Matt Danskin of Restoration Referral Systems on the show. Matt found that himself and most businesses struggle to successfully scale and sustain their referral sources so they rely on lesser lead sources. He found a way to solve that problem He created a way that directs brands creating referral relationships that provide efficient and more profitable work for your roofing or restoration company. To find out more on Matt & Restoration Referral Systems, you can check him out here, https://www.restorationreferralsystem.com You can also email him at [email protected] or call him at 615-947-0110. Contact us!

[email protected]

Let's Connect! ==== ==== ==== Website: https://bit.ly/3NQXXKK Facebook: https://bit.ly/3xH8VaT Linkedin: https://bit.ly/3RWTSyr ==== ==== ====

Transcript

Dan: If you're doing good quality work. If you have integrity, if you are the person that you would. want installing your roof. You shouldn't have to compete at doors with some of the scumbags that are up because the scumbags can knock on a door the same way you can. They can't access referral relationships.

Mike: Do you find that a lot of contractors that you're working with that they're aware what their time is truly worth?

Dan: The whole point of this is sharpening the axe, right? So we can be more efficient.

Mike: Ladies and gentlemen, I'm Mike Stearns with Mission Control Podcast brought to you by Ascend Digital Agency. We've got our first episode today. And for that episode, you are in for a. We got a very special guest Matthew Danskin with Restoration Referral . Systems. Matt, thanks for coming on air.

Dan: Thank you, Michael. Yeah, appreciate you having me.

Mike: Yeah, no doubt. So for you, those of you that don't know, uh, Matt, which I'm sure most of you do, um, I became acquainted with Matt over the last few years. He gained a lot of traction with a process and a system that he created for contractors to help them grow their business. He comes very highly recommended within the Facebook communities that we're in. I have clients my, of my own that have worked with Matt and have had a great success. So Matt, I'll turn it over to you to tell the, the viewers in the audience a little bit more about you and the company.

Dan: Sure. Yeah, I appreciate it.

Um, I focus very pretty narrowly on, on helping other contractors, like you said, create referral relationships with insurance agents. It's something that, uh, I found success in. Uh, so I have people ask me all the time, like, you know, if I'm just like this random consultant that decided to like pick roofers as my niche, there's a lot of those, right. oh my gosh. Uh, yeah. And, uh, you know, so it was something that I was doing and really, uh, I had no intentions of even being a consultant or training other people or teaching other people and started having people reach out because they were like, Hey, you figured this thing out. That's valuable to me. Can you, can you teach it to me? And, uh, it's been really cool. It's kind of one of those like accidental, um, like career shifts. Um, but it it's something that I, I find a lot of, uh, fulfillment in, in being able to take that thing that I, the piece of business that I enjoy the most. Yeah. And help people with that one piece. Uh, and so one, I don't have to do all the other pieces. Are not my favorite. Um, but also I get to have the biggest impact because I'm focusing on that piece where my skill sets are strongest.

Mike: Okay. That's awesome, man. Yeah, you're doing a great job from, from every angle that I'm looking. Um, so kudos to you, uh, for finding that, whether it be fortuitously right. Or or what have you. So yeah. You were in the space before. You that that's kind of how the, the process came about. So like talk about how you got into the, to the roofing business and how this came from Matt being a greenhorn into having this revolutionary system that really makes an impact on people.

Dan: Sure. Yeah. So like, I, I kind of grew up in the construction field. Um, so building new new homes with my dad, um, from the time I was way too young to be on a construction site. uh, like got my first job framing houses, first job, like not working for my dad, framing houses in between, uh, seventh and eighth grade. Wow. So I was, you know, walking along the top of two story walls set in trusses, uh, Whatever 13 years old. Uh . And so, you know, I kind of had that background and I kind of took for granted the fact that like, most people don't understand how to build a house or like, they don't understand how to frame or how to pour footers or, you know, uh, all that sort of stuff. Yeah. And like, it's whatever, there's plenty of stuff. I don't know how to do, but like, that was just like what I grew up in knowing. And. Got outta college studied business administration, um, in, uh, in, oh, not oh eight end of oh eight. And, um, it was a great time to not get into construction um, so I didn't really get into construction right away. I got, you know, kind of got pushed into some sales stuff. Okay. And, uh, you know, thankfully I was able to kind of build a base of different sales stuff and I I've always been somebody that. Likes to learn and likes to, like, if I'm gonna do sales, like I'm gonna figure it out and I'm gonna go take courses on stuff. And I'm gonna like read books and I'm gonna like watch YouTube videos or whatever. Like I'm gonna figure out sales if that's what I'm doing. And so I, I got pretty good at sales and, and then I realized like, Hey, I've got this construction background. I know how to do sales. Uh, and I sold a bunch of different things, but I started to realize like, if you can. like a, a product that's a high dollar amount that has good margins. You can make more money like a roof guys, right? Well, yeah, in, in a roof really? I got in, I got into GC work first. Okay. And so I, I got into like high end, um, remodel work. I mean, we would do three, $400,000 remodels for people. We'd do a hundred thousand dollars kitchen remodels, like. Um, you know, which I'm looking at like, okay, like that's a big ticket. I can make good money on it. And, and I, I already kind of knew all the things I needed to know for that. But what doing that kind of made me realize was it, it's hard to replicate those sales at a high frequency mm-hmm right. And that's like, the other piece of the, the math equation is like, okay, How often can I sell a hundred thousand dollars kitchen remodel, right. Like, and that's a lot of work and you're, you're dealing with a lot of people, right? Yeah. Yeah. It's a, it's a very specific niche. And, and, and also like if the economy takes a turn or whatever, how many people that would've spent a hundred grand on a kitchen remodel are gonna push it off for a year or two, or they're gonna spend 50 instead of a hundred or what, you know, like there's a lot of vulnerabilities to that. And, and the company I was working for started a roofing. . I was like, wait a second. These projects take like a day, the insurance company's gonna pay for like 90% of the cost. That's not even sales anymore. That's just like, , that's stupid. Uh, you know, when you're used to like telling someone, Hey, we're we can make this amazing kitchen for you, but you need to give me a hundred thousand dollars outta your bank account, or you need to go take a loan for a hundred grand, uh, to do this.That's a lot harder sale than, Hey, gimme a thousand dollars and I'll give you a $15,000 project.

Mike: Yeah, the injections I would imagine are a lot more, um, frequent and robust when you're, when you're trying to get a check stroke for a hundred, right?

Dan: Yeah. When it, when it's their money. Right. Uh, I mean, and, and people do get a lot more excited about a kitchen than they do about a roof. So there there's that piece of it. Uh, but, but also, uh, a high end kitchen remodel where we're gutting something out, may take three, four months easily, right. Versus a roof. The actual production of it's gonna be a day, maybe two. Right. You know, I'm not having to go inside their house. I'm not having to coordinate schedules with them. Like I'm not having to coordinate five different trades or whatever, like, uh, eight different trades or like, it's just, it's simple. It's easy. It's replicatable the ticket is still pretty high. The margins are still pretty high. And so that for me, I was like, I need to learn. mm-hmm and like, if the economy goes bust or whatever, like times are good, it once they're not, not like if, but like when they're not, I don't wanna be reliant on something that I can't control and people are still gonna get their thousand dollars deductible paid and, and get their $15,000 roof even, you know? Sure. Regardless of what the economy's doing. And so. Uh, I, I really got the opportunity to learn roofing, uh, for quite a while when I didn't have to depend on it. That's nice. And I think so many people, like they jump into roofing, it's like sink or swim, like your bills need to get paid. Your commission only like, go do it. Uh, fortunately I, you know, I'm selling $400,000, you know, home remodels. And then, you know, I'll go sell some roofs here and there and I'll go to a roofing conference and I'll go to this training and the manufacturer will do stuff. And I'm like, I'm just that nerd that'll, uh, read through code books. Right. Like, and I wanna know everything about how to install this thing. Right. And, um, you know, what the new products are and all that sort of stuff. So long story short or long story long. Uh, I, I got to, uh, I got to learn roof. Um, you know, kind of saw the opportunity there, um, company I was working for, uh, we, I try to just be very diplomatic about how I talk about this. Uh, we, we didn't see eye to eye, uh, anymore. And, and so I decided that, uh, I should work somewhere else and, and decided to. worked for just a roofing company. And, and still I, at that time, I was still doing all the different lead gen stuff. I was still knocking doors. We were getting, you know, leads on a little bit of leads online. We weren't, you know, probably could have used you. Um, but, uh, you know, social media, networking groups, uh, whatever I could do to sell roofs, you know, buy and telemarketing leads. And, and I had one buddy who was an insurance agent that was referring me work. And that's really where I discovered. And again, I think you'll probably see like a theme here. Like I look at the numbers, right? Like I, I look at all this like a math equation. Sure. Um, and so I'm like, okay, what's most profitable and efficient format here. Like when I knock on a door, especially in a competitive market, like Denver, there's gonna be 20 other guys that knock on that. Right. And some of 'em are going to drop their shorts. They're gonna eat the deductible.

Mike: Uh, wait, that happens. People eat deductibles every once in a while.

Dan: Um, you know, and I'm a pretty good salesperson. Like you can make sure that that's doesn't happen much to you, but still you're gonna lose some. Right. Right. And everyone that you lose that you spend an hour inspecting an hour talking with the customer, maybe an hour meeting with the adjust. and they end up having somebody else build their roof and they pay someone else to build their roof. You got paid, nothing for that. And so that's all hours that like, if you were working an hourly job and there's like, oh yeah, we didn't count those. You get paid zero for that. Like that's total BS, which right. Roofing still works because you're making good money on your other hours that you're getting paid for. But it, it waters it down. And so I'm like, all right. That's not ideal. Like how do I cut out as much of that as I can. There's always gonna be some, but like, that's what got me. And I I'm always like, obviously, like I've got my thing, like, Hey referrals from insurance agents, best thing to slice bread or whatever, whatever it, whatever market someone's in, whatever personality they have, whatever's working for them. Like, don't just go do everything and then like, see how it pans out. know your stuff, be, you know, know, okay. When I get a lead from my website, I close it at this percentage. Our profit margins are usually this like this. Like, this is what it is. This is really good. And, and like, no, when I get a lead from home advisor that my profit margin is this and, and my, my closing ratio is this and that, that closing ratio. People are like, okay. Yeah. Like it it's gonna be what it is, which is probably true. Like, obviously you get better at sales. You try to make it as good as you can make it. Sure. But at the same time, you have to put that in into your calculations of like how much time am I wasting with people that don't buy from me that don't ever turn into revenue. Right? Like that, that they're stealing time that I could be spending with someone who is gonna pay me. And not that it's like all about money, but like you it's stupid to just go out there and like, I'm just gonna go work myself to death and then like, hope it works out. And that's what I see. So many people doing as super frustrating. Like I wanna just like shake them and be like, no, like. whether it's referrals from insurance agents or website leads, or if it is home advisor, which I've yet to meet someone who it is. But like, if that's the thing that makes you great money, then go do that. Uh but

Mike: Matt, how do you track these things? Just with a pen and paper?

Dan: Uh, I just use like Google sheets. Okay. Honestly. Uh, and, and, and here's the other thing, uh, is I'll use like my, my Google calendar. and, and I'll log everything. So like, even if it's after the fact, so like a lot of times I'll put stuff on my calendar, like, this is what I've got from nine to 10 I'm meeting with Mike. Uh, right. But like, even if like, I don't have something in my next hour block after that's hour hours over, I'll go back and put what I was doing in that time. And then I can go back through and analyze like, okay, what was my time? And I think even now there's, there's all sorts of like apps. Widgets and all sorts of stuff you can do to kind of track what you're spending your time on. But, uh, um, even if you're just getting kind of like a gut feeling of like playing it out, even if the numbers aren't perfect, you should be able to start to see trends. You should be able to see these things are working for me better than others. Um, but that's where I got really, really passionate about there. There's strong evidence that these referrals from insurance agents are the most valuable use of my time by a lot. I need to replicate that. I need to scale that and I need to stop wasting time on BNI, uh, which is great. I've got a bunch of friends from there, but I'm spending three hours a week, you know, with drive time, maybe four or five hours a week on BNI. And I get 10 deals a year.

Mike: Right. It's just opportunity, cost and benefit, right?

Dan: Yeah. And say, it's say four hours a week, times, 50 weeks. That's 200 hours that I spent to get 10 jobs. like that's 20 hours per job. You can go, you could go stand on a street corner and say, I sell roofs and sell more than one roof, every 20 hours. Right. Like if you break it down like that to the, like the ridiculous it's like, yeah, that that's a stupid use of my time. Um, you've gotta be, even though, like, it seems like, oh, I'm being productive. I sold 10 roofs for my through VI B and I that's, I sold $150,000 worth of stuff. Okay, cool. Maybe you should be. you would have a better use of your time standing on a street corner, just repeating I sell roofs or staying at the, the exit ramp with a sign. I sell roofs a little cardboard sign. You'd probably stop maybe with a dog. Yeah. And you get to hang out with your dog. uh, pick at your scabs. So

Mike: that's uh, so let me ask you this. So you couple things. That's great insight right now. Do you find that a lot of, a lot of contractors that you're working with that they're aware. of what their time is truly worth. Right? Because you made a point of talking about how important it is to maximize the time that you were putting in and what you were getting out of it. Do you find that typically your prospective clients are aware, um, and value their time appropriately? Do you feel like it's undervalued overvalued? Where, what would you say on that?

Dan: I, I would say most people are, are operating in a. in a way that they're not satisfied with. So like they may be making good money. It's not as good as they would hope. Right. Uh, they may have a decent lifestyle. Um, but there are a lot of evenings and weekends where they don't get to spend time with their family. They'd prefer to do it, but they're gonna do the, you know, the hard thing they're gonna, they're gonna go work nights and weekends. They're gonna miss out on, on some of that stuff because they're gonna take care of their family. Right. Totally respectable thing. Um, it, and if you haven't seen like, Hey, I can, I can work hard and I can control this situation. Just, just by making a couple of tweaks where I get to dictate when I'm working and the customer follows my schedule instead of me following theirs and, and the customer's happy to do it. I, if I set the boundaries for. right. Like what you can't do if you're desperate, right? Like if you're like just operating at that, that lower level. Um, and you're the, the paradigm is like, yes. You know, whenever, whenever you're available, Mr. Customer, I'll be over there and I've been there. Like, I've been like, you know, Hey, we'll come over at, you know, seven o'clock at. Yeah. You know, and, uh, you know, I know my son has his, his test for karate, but, uh, this person is probably a, a sold deal. You know, I'm gonna make some money on it or whatever, you know, and it's like, uh, I think, I think a lot of people are operating, um, doing the best that they know how to do, uh, working hard. Uh, but, um, having seen, having experienced and seen people kind of flip that switch. and, and start tapping into a lot more opportunities and where they get to kind of call the shots and say, this is what I'm gonna be available, Mr. Customer, if you'd like to use me, this is, this is how it's gonna go. And then now you get to also like dictate terms of like, this is how we're gonna work with the insurance company. If you're not cool with that, go find another. and, and most people are like, oh, okay, you're the expert now. But when you're just like, yeah, Mr. Customer, you do whatever we need to do. Or, you know, I'll do it. However you wanna do it. Then you're, you're running around, you know, following the customer who doesn't know anything about how to run an insurance claim and build a roof and all that sort of stuff, it, it doesn't serve anybody, but it's, again, just kind of like that, that different paradigm, uh, that, um, that happens when. Have abundant opportunities or you don't.

Mike:Yeah. And I think, uh, would you agree like directly or in, or intentionally or unintentionally you're, you're almost differentiating yourself right. From every other contractor. Cuz not a lot of guys are doing that. Right. Yeah. And we both know through like marketing, how can you differentiate yourself from the rest of your competition? So it's a different experience you're taking control. There's predictability. That should come along with that. That would be nice. And, and you can't put a price on that, that freedom, that autonomy. Being at the, you know, letting the customer be at the helm of every deal and kind of controlling your life.

Right. Yeah. That's amazing. So,

Dan: yeah. Well, it's, it's so funny because like, like for me, I got to the point, like I would have my schedule, right? Like I did everything by schedules and I, I would pretty much work Monday through Friday nine to five and you know, and everybody else is out knocking doors on the weekends and evenings when people are gonna be home or what, like, you know, or going to meet with customers whenever they. but I'd be booked out for two, three weeks, you know, and I've got my like five appointments a day for like two, three weeks. And somebody's like, oh yeah. I, I need somebody to come look at my roof and, you know, Hey Tony, the roofer, you know, can come by this afternoon cuz he's got nothing going on. He's gonna jump whenever I tell him jump. And I'm like, no, it's, uh, two and a half weeks. Uh, I've got a three o'clock on Tuesday or you know, it's gonna be another week after that, before I have another. they'll wait for you. They're like that guy's time is valuable, right? Like, and, and you can even, like, I've seen guys like manufacture this where they like artificially like block off times where they're like, I'm only available this time and it, it works. It's that scarcity. We

Mike: want what we can't

Dan: have. Right, exactly. Yeah. Like, uh, it, it absolutely, uh, works, but at the same time, like you can, you can manufacture it, which is like a whole other deal, but sure. Ultimately, if you create that situation, like now I've got my schedule booked out and, and now, like, I know predictably, like, this is what I need to do.

And instead of just every day, okay. Where am I gonna find my next roof? It's already lined up for me.

Mike: Um, yeah. And then you, don't gotta rely on things like Google.

Dan: I mean, you can, I mean, you can, you can use Google to book out the schedule. Yeah. I'm not, I'm not a hater on online. uh, marketing at all, man.

Mike: No, I mean, if you look at it, I own a marketing agency and I'll tell you firsthand, like word of mouth referral business. Like that's, if you can saturate your time by generating leads that way, like, why wouldn't you, right. If you can fill your needs as far as. Your capacity for your sales reps, your fulfillment, and you can do whatever you're happy doing. And that might be a million dollars a year, 5 million, 20 million. Why wouldn't you, why would you pay to generate leads via anything else? Because there's gonna be a lower close rate associated with even the highest intent lead on Google, right? Sure. Or Facebook or call center. Doesn't matter. You name it. Um, so fully on board with it. I love it. Um, so let's talk about how restoration referral system can take somebody who. Life is essentially being run by their customers. Right. And then put 'em into that situation where there's some there's semblance of scarcity, there's credibility, and they've got a, a much better work life balance. Sure.

Dan: Um, so again, like what we do is training, so it's a little bit different, like we're not doing a lead service, it's not like a done for you thing. Uh, because ultimately. A referral relationship with an insurance agent is you're making promises and you're gonna have to be the one to keep those promises. So I can't go make those promises for you. And so, um, for me, being able to scale those relationships and do that predictably came down to figuring out what those agents wanted from me. So just like you guys know, like, okay, what, what is Google looking for from this website to. Choose them as the number one thing like we're looking at, like, what is this agent looking for? What are their triggers? What are their hot buttons? And, and it's really predictable. Like when you, you start to get into it, like, I know the six things that they care about the most and I can even rank them pretty, pretty darn accurately. Um, and, and so I know these are the six points that I need to hit and, and most roofers aren't talking. , you know, they may talk about three of the six, uh, the, you know, two of the six, probably aren't even on their radar. They're not even showing up to the party. So if I can nail 10 outta 10, out of all, six of those categories, I win, uh, most guys, you know, even if they recognize these referral relationships with insurance agents are really good. They go in, Hey. I'm Matt with XYZ roofing. You know, we're a plus rated with the better business bureau. We're triple, double platinum preferred with our shingle manufacturer. And I'm a really nice guy. I'm gonna take care of your customer. Right. And it's the same thing that the hundred guys before him came in and said, and so if you're the same as everybody else. That's not gonna make them have a conversion. They're gonna keep working with the guy they've been working with. You know, that brought 'em the, the nice donuts that they like, uh, that, you know, kept their customer happy that didn't create any problems. Like as long as they didn't totally drop the ball, they're gonna keep the ball unless you can blow 'em out of the water. And, and so we're just really intentional, intentional, and calculated. checking all those boxes for them doing that in a really effective way, creating a relationship where everybody wins, the contractor wins, the customer wins, the agent wins. Um, and, and that allows us to convert that relationship. And unlike when you sell a roof, you get to go like, Hey, let's sign a contract. And like, this is locked in. And like, it's done. Like I sold you. Right. it's different with a relationship where I need to sell them on an ongoing basis. Like they need to continue to believe that I am the best thing for them. Right. Like, or they can, they can change at any, any one point in time, start sending their referrals to somebody else or just stop sending them to me. And, and so it's a little bit different conversion than what a lot of roofers are used to. , there's not a ton of follow up required. That's one question. I get a lot. They're like, oh yeah. Do I need to like check in with 'em every week? Or what? Like, no, like, uh, just keep being the best option for them and, uh, you know, and take care of business and do good stuff. And, and so like one agent though, isn't gonna like totally transform your life. Like it it'll be like, okay. Yeah, I got 10, 10 deals this year off of that agent. Cool. uh, for most people that's not gonna like change things that much. Uh, but if you can, you have a process that's effective and I can go apply that and build up a network of 10 agents, 20 agents, 30 agents for myself right now, I have a steady stream of business that's always coming in and I get to be targeted about which carriers I'm working with. I get those agents to advocate for me to make sure. Our claims are getting paid that they're getting, you know, like pushed through. And so it, it just creates this, uh, this abundance where it's like, I know I've got business coming in. I don't need to go beg for it somewhere. Uh, I kind of joke with people about, you know, door knocking, begging at, at people's doors for , uh, for business or whatever, but, uh, and I've, I've done plenty of door knocking and there's plenty of great guys that do it. But, um, I, I think if you're doing good quality work, if you have integrity, like if you are the better companies, like if you are the person that you would want installing your roof, you shouldn't have to compete at doors with some of the scumbag that are out there. Cuz the scumbag can knock on a door the same way you can. They can't access referral relationships. at least if they do, they're not gonna, they're not gonna last. And so that's where you have an unfair advantage, uh, against the bad guys. Uh, cuz the bad guys have lower costs. Right. Cuz they don't have to like do good customer service. Right? Like

Mike: maybe they have insurance, maybe they don't.

Right?

Dan: Yeah. Like they, yeah they're they're not gonna fix issues that they have. They're not gonna install good quality shingles, like whatever. Like they have unfair advantages. to you in some ways, right? And I'm not advocating doing business in a bad way. Uh, but I'm saying like, there are areas that they have an advantage on you. So like don't compete with them there that's stupid. Go compete with them in areas that they, that you have an unfair advantage. And, and the, you know, the whole point is just creating those, those opportunities. Uh, it puts you in the driver's seat. It, it allows you to control the situation and, and be more intentional about your, uh, the outcome, rather than just going out there and working yourself to death and, and hoping that that things work out for you.

Mike: I like it. That's again, great insight. So, but let me ask you this can't we just do the, send a box of donuts to get top of mind with an agent, and that's enough to, to separate us a little bit, and maybe we follow up once or twice with '

Dan: em. Um, I mean, you can, I mean, that's what people have been doing for 40 years. Right. Um, and, and that's, you know, what a lot of my clients' competitors are, are still doing. Um, but. One you're, you're gonna look like everybody else. And so, so you will like, if you go meet with 10 agents and you go drop off a box of donuts and you let 'em know how great of a roofer you are, all that sort of stuff. You'll probably close one out of those 10, maybe two. Okay. On referring some of their business to you. Usually you get put on a list of like three contractors, right? Uh, super common. And people are like, Hey. That's a win for me, you know, box of donuts is 10 bucks. I spent a hundred bucks. I got, uh, I got this agent, I'll get five roofs off of them. It's a hundred bucks to get five roofs. Cool. That's a win. And, and like, there there's an ROI there. Um, but if you calculate in, okay, I spent 30 minutes on each one of those. Uh, so I spent five hours driving, dropping off donuts and meeting with all these agents that was five hours to get those five roofs still, not, not terrible ROI, but like it's getting worse. So like, what if I could go to those agents and I'll probably spend an hour with them, but I'm gonna close half of 'em and I'm not gonna close them on, send me, you know, put me on a list of, of roofers. So I'm bidding against other guys. I'm the guy. I am absolutely the best option for. I'm gonna help you win. I'm gonna help you make more money. I'm gonna make your customers happier. Uh, they're gonna stick with you longer. Um, when you can have that type of conversion at that high of a rate, now the numbers really start to make sense, and I don't have to buy donuts. If anything, I'm gonna go eat the donuts that the other leg dropped off. holds barred. You have everything you need to be successful with this. And so. It's not just like, Hey, we do like a monthly group call join in. It's like, you know, uh, I need some help with this. There's because our market is different. Our company's different. I, my personality's different. I need some help customizing what you've trained us on into how I go out and use this in the real world. They'll go on our website. They'll schedule with us and say, Hey, Matt Thursday at 11:00 AM. Can we get on the, on a zoom call for an. and, and, and work through this stuff. Can you listen to my pitch and give me feedback on my tone and the way that I'm delivering this and make sure I'm not forgetting anything. And so I, I just think there's some things in online learning that can't be accomplished just through watching a recorded video. There's a lot that can, like, I, I can reach so many more people. They can watch it at midnight in their boxer short. And they can watch it five times over without tying up my time. Right? Like, so it's an efficiency thing for me, but also like if I need to hold everybody's hand for every moment of their training, I need to call, I need to charge five times as much. Right. Like I, I want, I want it to make it as convenient as possible most of the time where you're watching the recording stuff. Uh, but also have that personal touch to be able to apply. , you know, I, I always feel weird about this, like my expertise in this, but like I focus on one topic all day long every day, like in my narrow little lane, uh, there's not much that I can't address that I, that I can't help with. Right. Like, uh, in, in my specialty. Um, I can probably answer just about any questions

Mike: I like that. what's your favorite type of donuts for those watching?

Dan: Uh, I like a chocolate cake donut with chocolate ice.

Mike: Okay. Yeah. All right. I can get down with that. Nice. So you're gonna close at a higher percentage, which is, you know, if you take something that's good and make it better, make it great. Like fantastic. Yeah. And there's gonna be more of an exclusive relationship. Yeah. Which I think is a lot very, very valuable. Yeah.

Dan: Uh, again, looking at that closing ratio, like even if I'm a great salesperson, even if I have a great company that I'm representing all that sort of stuff, if I'm dealing. The customer's getting three bids. I'm not gonna close a hundred percent of those. Uh, I'm gonna close, you know, say you're awesome. You close half of those instead of a third of those, which is your proportion. Um, that's still half the time I'm wasting. And, and so, um, not that I'm not advertising, you're always gonna have this exclusive. You're never gonna deal with competition, but it's less. Uh, and, and that makes a difference where if I'm putting in my 40 hours or my 60 hours or whatever my bandwidth is, I'm filling it with things that are gonna pay me money and gonna pay me good margins.

Mike: Yeah. That's nice. It sounds like an ideal situation. If I'm a roofing contractor. Exactly. So, let me ask you this. So we, we sign up today, Matt, we're super excited to start working with you. So what can we expect as a roofing company internally, as far as like a timeline, to get everybody up to speed to where now we're closing that high percentage of those relationships and we're, we're reaping the benefits yeah. Of partnering up.

Dan: So we do our program, uh, as what I call like a hybrid training program. So we have an online university. Uh, there's professionally recorded videos. There's modules. You can go through where you got video. You've got text, you've got, uh, PDFs. You've got call scripts. You've got everything laid out for you kind of step by step. Like we tried to make sure there's no gaps. Like you get everything you need without having to be like here's 600 hours of video that you're never gonna get through. right. here's everything. You need, nothing that you don't, uh, there's some supplemental stuff. If you want to dig deeper into a certain topic, it's there for you. Um, but from the time someone signs up for us, with us, they get access to that online university immediately. And then I do live coaching as well. So it's not like a one or the other. It's like, if you're working with me, I wanna make sure nosomebody can throw at me. And so, um, I think that's important that they get that piece. When we're the whole point of this is sharpening the ax, right? So we can be more efficient when we cut and, and that Razor's edge of that very specific. Hey, when you do this, when you call the agent and you say this, make your tone like this at the beginning of the call, like change, those little nuances are what really just make this. um, so from the, you gave me like timeline is the, was the question. Um, literally from the time someone signs up, they can go through that training in day one. Uh, and I usually tell people, Hey, uh, break it up into the three days. Uh, but you can go through it in your first day. Uh, if you really want to, or you can break it up into three days, get on a, a call with me on day four and, and from day four, the most important thing about any. Go put it into action. Like don't just like learn all that stuff. Execution, be super smart with it. Like start doing it. Even if you, you learn it halfway, you're gonna learn so much more by actually going out and doing it. Uh, sometimes getting your teeth kicked in cuz you forgot the other half of it. Um sure. But that's gonna be a really good teacher of like, oh yeah, I need to learn this. And, and people like in the door knocking side, like people know this. I'm gonna get my pitch. Like I'm gonna practice my pitch and like be, you know, thoughtful about what I'm gonna do and I'm gonna go out and do it. And maybe I totally drop the ball and totally screw up. And I look like baptism by fire. yeah, I look like an idiot. Well, there's another door, 50 feet away. I'll never see this person again. It's fine. Yeah. No big deal. Like, uh, I I've heard all sorts of stories about guys like knocking doors and like, you know, especially like their first door ever, just like marbles come out of their mouth. They're just like, Do you need a roof, right? Like, you know, like totally forget all they're trained or whatever and still like there's another door, 50 feet away. It, same, same principle applies with insurance agents. Even in like a small market. There's a bunch of agents. And so like, yes, you do wanna practice this. You do wanna do it. Right. But like you got, there's more reps out there. If you go screw something up. You're gonna do a lot better remembering half of what I've taught you than just learning all of it and never going out and using it. Yeah, it makes a lot of sense. So, so literally in, in their first week they can start being successful with that. Uh, certainly within their first month, they can start to see ROI on that. So that's why we do, uh, you know, we've got like 110% 30 day money back guarantee. So like, we let people like, do the train, like go through the training, like meet with me, like learn all of it, go out and try it. If it doesn't work for you, we'll literally pay, pay them for their time. I've had two people take me up on that out of, um, probably close to 200.

Mike: I mean, two is not a lot.

Dan: it's not a lot. And, and obviously it's pretty amazing, honestly, both of those two, uh, I'm pretty sure they were. uh, new companies that were broke and they were like, oh, that's money that I can pull back. Uh, so whatever, we still refunded them. Uh, but like, yeah, there, I mean, there's no, no stipulations on it. Oh like, oh, you didn't make enough calls. Like, no it's day 29. You want your money back. Here you go. And

Mike: That's amazing. Yeah. Yeah. That's that's really good. So we buy into the university. What's the, what's the cost to get

Dan: on. It's $4,800 per year.

Mike: Okay. So essentially one claim right. From one of these relationships. Sure. And, and you're

Dan: call it, call it two. Yeah.

Mike: Call it two. Sure. All right. Small roof. Yeah. Small roof. Got it. With state farm. There you go. I'm

Dan: joking. You're not going. You're not. Well, if you don't like state farm, don't go meet with their agents. Cuz guess what guess what type of claims farm agents are gonna refer to you? State farm. Uh, you know, so yeah, that's, you know, to me, it's as much about, you know, and we didn't even really talk about this so much, but it's as much about getting more customers and ha creating that abundance and that, that whole paradigm as I'm gonna target those carriers that I know are gonna pay me at a 55, 60% margin, instead of, without a lot of fighting, instead of targeting those carriers, they're gonna pay me at a 35, 40% margin.After I wrestle them in the mud.

Mike: Right. So you're systematically creating your ideal customer and a pipeline of those ideal customers with some upfront investment of a little bit of money, a little bit of time, and then just executing.

Dan: Yep. With 110% money back guarantee. Yeah. With no risk. so

Mike: love it. Yeah. Yeah. Sign me up. I'm opening a roofing company. Yeah. Yeah, that's pretty amazing. And so you also do, when they, when you say you could schedule time, they get to meet with you. Mm-hmm directly, or a team member it's me. So they get to meet with the pioneer if they got any questions. Yep. That's amazing. You mentioned that you read a lot of books, Matt, so what's the, what's the most impactful book that you've read recently?

Dan: Uh, Hmm. I would say. I bounce around a lot, uh, honestly, um, in terms of like reading lately, like sometimes I'll like go read through a whole book, but sometimes I'm just like, let me read a chapter of this book and then bounce around and read a chapter of this book. I would say a book that I've been, um, I've been talking to a lot of people about here recently, um, which I I've skimmed through recently. I, I read through, uh, a few years. Is fanatical prospecting, fanatical,

Mike: ion. Let's hear more about it.

Dan: And, um, you know, quick summary of that is really just looking at your, you know, it's a lot of the things that have kind of like trained me on, on the way I think about, uh, business, but, uh, looking at your opportunities and. Looking at how you generate, uh, those opportunities and just being systematic about continuously filling that funnel, like continuously staying on top of it. And, and also I think a big thing for me also was, um, and like 10 X rule kind of talks about this as well. Like you have, if you have a handful of opportunities, say I have like five roofing companies that I might sell my training to, or. And I just hound those five to death, right. Like one that that's like stinks of desperation and they're probably not gonna do business with me anyway. Um, but also like out of those five, there may be some people that like, you don't know what they have going on. Right. Like it may be that like, they they're just covered up with leads from ASC send digital agency and they just don't like have time for anything else. Uh, it may be that like they're completely broke and like, no, no matter how well you sell this, they don't have the money. They can't get the financing. Like, you know, whatever the case is. Like, if you've got five roofs that you're trying to sell and, and you're focused on those five opportunities and, and one of 'em his, his brother's a roofer. He's just not gonna tell you that. Right? Like you're never gonna sell that. You know, another one already had a claim. They already got paid out and they went and lost it all in Vegas or whatever. Um, like you're chasing that deal cuz you think it is, you don't have all the information. Right? Like whatever the case is, like they don't like you because um, you have a beard and like they hate people with beards or like whatever the thing is like they're like if you're hyper focused on those five, maybe like you spend all your time focusing on those five and then maybe. Two of them flush out and they were gonna flush out anyway. Even if you didn't focus all your attention on it, or you say, okay, I got those five, let me go out and create another five opportunities. Let me go create another five opportunities. Let me go create another five opportunities and like follow up with them, stay in touch with them. But like, I wanna create a situation where like, I'm impressed for like, Hey customer. If you need something, reach out to me, let me know if you're ready to go. Um, but I'm not gonna hound you. I don't have time for that. And, and then now the customer's again, that like the customer's chasing you and they're like, okay, yeah, I wanna work with you, but you can't do that when you've got five opportunities, you can do that when you have 50. And you're like, you're kind of hoping that some of them fall through just cuz you don't have time to deal with all these customers. Right. Right. And so it it's. The book is really simple in terms of just like being fanatical about constantly filling that funnel, constantly creating new opportunities. Um, but it's one of those things where like, if you read 200 pages of them just bashing this simple idea into your head, it starts to stick.

Mike: Right. I like it. Yeah. And I mean, I think that there's a lot to be said about the, the desperation aspect and how, how many people in sales and not just roofing sales sales in general come from a place of desperation. And it's funny, cuz I try to reflect on things and like who wants the desperate person? Right. So if I think back to my fiance, when we first started talking, if I message her everything every day, first thing in the morning I responded immediately, you know, checked in 20 times a day. We wouldn't, we probably wouldn't be where we're at right now. Right. yeah.

Dan: And, and the chick that, that would've worked with, you don't want, I promise.

Mike: Right, right. So yeah, I heard that from a friend. I swear. Um, so there's a lot to be said about that. And I think that, and that's just an invaluable point, man. Um, a lot of people sell from a point in desperation and it, it creates, uh, we wanna create an, a lure around doing business with us and it does the exact opposite. but it's good that, you know, the restoration referral system will help solve that. So how do people contact you, Matt, if they want to, they wanna move forward?

Dan: They can contact us probably the easiest way is through our website restoration referral system.com. Uh, they could email me Matt restoration, referral system.com, uh, or they can give me. at give 'em a call 6 1 5 9 4 7 0 1 1 0. And that's actually my number. Um, so that'll come right to me. Um, on the website, they can also schedule a call if they're just like, I don't, you know, if they're reaching out at midnight, I'm probably not gonna get that. Cuz I'm, I'm that weird guy that goes to bed at like nine 30 and gets up at four.

Mike: Sure. Um, but they can schedule something with me during the day and. We can give 'em our full attention. Do you have a place where people can view the experience of maybe some of your, your past customers that have done business with you?

Dan: Uh, so yes, we do have, uh, a bunch of reviews, uh, that are on our YouTube channel, on our Facebook, on our Google, on our, you know, uh, we've got video testimonials, we've got all that sort of stuff. And my favorite form of market. uh, is not digital marketing. It's not referral marketing. Well, it's kind of referral marketing is, this is kind of a, a little hack that I learned. You can use this too. And you maybe already do is like, I get people like, Hey, can you gimme references? And I'm like, yeah, I totally can. Uh, I'll probably give you a list of like three of my favorite customers that I've done the best with. Right. But I'm gonna cherry pick them the same way you would. Like here's all, here's three of my customers that we did a great job on their roof and they didn't have any problems and they were super happy. Even though you have some customers that we're probably not super happy with you. Yeah. Right? Sure. So like, I'm like, Hey, would you go into a Facebook group and ask them what you, you know, if they've worked with me, what they think of it and like, don't go chill for me. Just go like ask. And because like the stuff that we have works and because like, I truly care about helping my clients be successful. My clients. Pay it back. And they're like, somebody's asking about this. Matt made me a million dollars this year. Uh, I'll write a comment for 'em. Um, and, and so, and then 20 people that have never even heard about me see that, that thread, uh, and see 50 people, um, you know, commenting about how this made them a million bucks and then they sign up too. So, uh, that's my little, uh, gorilla marketing. tactic. And, and also if you're wondering about this and you don't want me to just connect you up with my three favorite customers, uh, then go on social media and ask and everybody wins. There you go.

Mike: Well, there you have it. Well, Matt, uh, really appreciate your time today. Brother love what you're doing for the industry and, uh, make sure you guys go check 'em out. It'll be worth your time.

Dan: Appreciate it. Thanks.

Mike: No problem. Take care, man.