In this episode, Christian Haynes '20 interviews Che Anderson '11 about his work supporting public art, and how his Holy Cross experience inspired him to make his mark on the City of Worcester.
Recorded November 20, 2019
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Transcript
Ché:
If at 23, 24, 25 you find something that's really keeping you up at night, and that's making you wake up early in the morning, go pursue that. There's no right or wrong way to do life, we're all just figuring it out.
Maura:
Welcome to Mission-Driven, where we speak with alumni who are leveraging their Holy Cross education to make a meaningful difference in the world around them. I'm your host, Maura Sweeney, from the class of 2007, director of Alumni Career Development at Holy Cross. I'm delighted to welcome you to today's show.
Maura:
In this episode we hear from Ché Anderson from the class of 2011. A New York native, Ché now claims Worcester as home. After making his mark on campus as a co-founder of the Brother to Brother Committee, Ché continues to make a positive impact on the Worcester community as an alumnus. Currently working as deputy cultural development officer for the City of Worcester, Ché was one of the organizers of the POW! WOW! Worcester Mural Festival. First debuting in 2016, POW! WOW! Worcester is an annual week-long festival that has already curated over 130 pieces of public art. For this great work, Ché was named to Worcester Business Journal's 40 Under 40 list in 2018.
Maura:
Christian Haynes, from the class of 2020, speaks with Ché about how this work came to be. Starting with his childhood in New York City, they speak about the many people and moments that have shaped Ché as a professional and as a leader. Filled with inspiring takeaways, their conversation showcases the power of putting the Holy Cross mission into action in the community.
Christian:
I'm here with my man, Ché Anderson.
Ché:
Hello there.
Christian:
So let's go ahead, it's your boy Christian, you already know what it is. So I'm talking about... I got to bring myself into this.
Ché:
I hear you, I hear you.
Christian:
First question, is it Ché or Shae? I know you have people that have known you for about 10, 20 years that still call you Shae.
Ché:
Yes, they do, my name is Ché Anderson, hard Ch with the accent over the E. I was named after Ernesto Ché Guevara, and oddly I got that name because my grandmother, rest her soul, was a Black Panther and she was a Black Panther from Harlem. And she raised my father strictly in that environment, and so having his first born son, he wanted to give me a name that, from the way I hear it, was powerful but that said, I would cause a little bit of trouble. And initially he wanted to name me Huey after Huey Newton.
Ché:
And my mother was just like, "No, I don't want that name". So they landed on Ché, because it was unique, and because they both thought that he was a really interesting and powerful figure. And so you could imagine growing up, now 30 years and people going, "Well either you have a lot to live up to", or, "Do you know what he was about or what he did?". And it's like, "yes", I've read every biography and autobiography I can of that person.
Christian:
That's wow. Did you feel that type of environment, that Black Panther type in your environment growing up, in your household growing up?
Ché:
I think that... It's funny, my mom was a correction officer, and worked on Rikers Island in New York. Which, for those that don't know, it's an interesting facility, to say the least.
Ché:
And I think that my mother always, drove home how important it was to be aware of myself and all my situations. Not only what it meant to walk a street, but what it means to walk the street as a black male, and how that can be perceived by different people. And so some of that was in the ideologies and philosophies of those in the Black Panther party, some of those are just growing up as a black person in New York City, and some of that is from my grandmother coming from South Carolina. So I think that, when you have family, all that legacy comes with you in the way that you're raised or brought up, or the different lessons you're taught.
Christian:
That's a lot.
Ché:
It is, it's heavy.
Christian:
It is heavy. I think that's the right word to use. Do you ever ask your mother why correctional officer was like...
Ché:
Yeah, apparently my mom was trying to figure it out, I think like most people are in life, in their early twenties and I think she knew that there were some really interesting opportunities and good pertinent opportunities in civil service. And for her, she had actually a friend who was taking the exam to be an officer, and so she said, "You know what, good pension, good paying job if I have a family", and she was recently married, "This could be a great fallback for the family". And then lo and behold, nine months into her tenure, that's when she found out she was pregnant with me. And she did it for 22 years, and went again from Rikers, which is one of the most notorious prisons in our country to working at Manhattan Courts, which is a little more relaxed.
Ché:
But my mom is the toughest person I know. She's a soldier, she's a warrior, but also somehow like the most loving person ever know.
Christian:
How close were you and your grandmother, from your mother’s side?
Ché:
Very, My dad actually wasn't really around much growing up. So my mom's side is who I really knew well. And so my grandmother was the one that kind of took care of me while mom was at work, and so she got to hear a lot of my first words, and first things like that. And my grandmother, it's odd, for work, she would actually clean houses, and so I spent a lot of my Saturday and Sunday mornings going with her to affluent people's houses and sitting on couches watching cartoons.
Ché:
And so it was an interesting dichotomy, growing up in the Amsterdam Projects where I grew up, which public housing, and then going to these affluent Central Park West houses and seeing what it's like to have a doorman, what it's like to have people who are throwing words like sommelier around, and not having any idea what that meant. And having fancy dogs, and having big flat screen TVs before we had that, when we still had the TV with the knob on it. Which was... but again, all that frames kind of who you are as you go up, right? So because of that I think I always felt comfortable everywhere. Because I was able to experience that at an early age, and around all kinds of people. Because I was able to see all sorts of people from, again, the penurious that were struggling, trying to figure it out, to the princely, that were running around throwing thousands of dollars at their kids, or their nieces and nephews.
Christian:
That's pretty tough, I thought we had a similar background. My mom was cleaning... she was a home attendant, taking care of the elderly. Coming from the Projects, even going to these houses in Bushwick at the time. They weren't the best houses, but they were still houses. And I guess you could say it's similar, from coming from the Projects not really having nothing, to seeing these fish tanks, these bigger TVs, these rooms that, more than one bedroom, more than two bedrooms. These people have a lot more than me, it's not a lot, but it's a lot more than me. And just spending time with my mother like that, I guess that made me more comfortable being in different spaces, like you say.
Christian:
But I remember the first time I learned about you, hear about you, learn about you, because in class I was into stats, psych stats, and I was on the website, Holy Cross website in a see 40 under 40. So what stood out to me was that title, and it was a black man. So I got to figure out what this is, and I realized he was a Holy Cross alum. I was like, the first person I had- Marcellis. I know you know this man.
Ché:
Big shout to Marcellis Perkins too.
Christian:
Of course, he got some questions for you too. I was like, "Who is this man?", He was like, "Yeah, Ché Anderson, yada yada, alumni 2011". And we actually going to meet up pretty soon, I'll come through if you want, and then that was the first time I met up with you at Crossroads. I'm like, "Yeah, he seemed like a cool dude, talk fast".
Ché:
I do talk fast, sorry about that.
Christian:
No, you're good, yeah yeah yeah yeah... no but you talk real fast. I was like, "Yeah, he seem like a cool dude", I remember the first time you mentioned... That was the first time you mentioned to me that you had connects with the Pawtucket Red Sox, and then there was a big thing at the time that they were coming from...
Ché:
From Pawtucket to Worcester.
Christian:
Yeah to Worcester, I think they made it here right?
Ché:
Yeah, they are opening day is April, 2021.
Christian:
Yeah so, baseball was a big thing for me, still is. So I was like, "Yeah, I got to say connect to this man right here".
Christian:
But I know you got a lot of work with art and street art, so just going back to your childhood or teenage years, whatever, do you remember your first time experiencing that or seeing it and admiring it. Whether it was street art, art, any type of art form?
Ché:
Yeah, so my mom, when she did have days off, we had to go somewhere, every time. I think that part of her raising me was that she wanted me to experience everything that she couldn't. And that literally meant everything. Some Saturdays we would just go for a walk and we'd walk Central Park and walk down Fifth Avenue and just window shop, but it was cool to just see all the different things people were getting, and FAO Schwarz, which was down on 59th and then Fifth Avenue, the toy store from Big with the big piano and we'd go in there, and I'd inevitably convinced her to get me like a Ninja Turtle or something.
But I had to see it, it was this big experience and we'd go to the American Museum of Natural History, or we go to the Guggenheim. And often I was way too young to really comprehend it, but my mom tried to make sure I saw everything. And I think that that... Those are some of my earliest memories experiencing art. And I remember walking through parts of Harlem, or parts of Brooklyn, or lower Manhattan, and you see graffiti and places but you're kind of fed this narrative that that's bad, that's desolate areas, you don't want that.
And oddly, it probably wasn't until seven or so years ago that I had this experience, and it's actually what led me on this path that I thought was really interesting. I was in Worcester, Post grad, living in a city I was sort of familiar with, but I didn't get off the Hill as much as I probably should have while I was a student. And the artist Banksy, from London, one of the most prominent public artists living today in modern history was doing a residency in New York City.
And my friends were running around taking pictures and posting them on Instagram, and I needed a new cool profile pic so I ran down to New York and I was blown away by how many people were traveling to New York City to catch a glimpse of this artwork. I came from Massachusetts, people were coming from Connecticut, and from Jersey, and growing up in New York, and you get this, quite often you stayed in your borough.
If you didn't have to travel to see family or a close friend that lives somewhere else. If you were from Manhattan, you stayed in Manhattan. If you were from Harlem, which is part of Manhattan, but you stayed in Harlem and that was it. And so people were coming from Staten Island taking the ferry to look at this artwork and I said, "This is awesome, where else is this happening?"
And eventually I started researching, and I learned about Wynwood, and more about what's happening in Bushwick, Brooklyn, and Philadelphia has this mural arts program that's been changing the city since the 1970's and I was like, "Hey, Worcester could do this, we have the wall space for sure, but we have a creative community, we've always kind of been an alternative community, let's see where it goes". And that was kind of it from there, it took off.
But it's one of those things where it's... I tell people, "You grew up in New York City and you don't really appreciate growing up in New York City until you leave New York City".
You know what I mean? You don't realize how many things you have at your fingertips, and how alive the city is, and how active it is, until you're at a city that closes down at midnight and you're just like, "What's going on?"
Christian:
I'd say 10 o'clock.
Ché:
Or until you're at a place and you're like, "Aw man, I can't sleep and I'm starving", but there's no bodega. Or you're like, "Aw man, I really want a Uber or taxi", and it's like, "No, there are none in the area right now, it's too late". And so it's not lost on me that what really made me appreciate being a New Yorker was not living in New York, and having to sort of figure out where to find the pockets that made me feel like I was home.
Christian:
I would've thought that you done a lot of research about graffiti, especially in the 80's in New York.
Ché:
Oh yeah, of course, at this point I have, but growing up, no. And I tell people this all the time, I think that people see 40 under 40, I got this award for this public art project that I'm always taking pictures with murals and I'm doing talks, and stuff about murals... That's all in the last 10 years. I didn't study that, I'm not classically trained in any of that. There are people that'll bring up famous artists to me, from different movements, and I'm just like, "Nope, no idea what you're talking about". But it goes to a point of, people have their belief of a right way to do something, and that you have to be the biggest scholar and that. You don't, like you can just be passionate about something, you could really like something and find your niche in that world.
And that's what it is for me. I appreciate the culture, I respect it, I've learned my history on it. So I'm not just someone that's a culture vulture that came in and was like, "I'm going to do this thing". No, I've sat with graffiti writers, I've had to hold some graffiti writers names close to the vest because no one needs to know that. But the fact of the matter is that as a person who appreciates neo-contemporary art, which is just the really fancy way of saying street art or graffiti, I was able to come humbly to a table and have a seat at it now, and have just open conversation.
And so this is a person who... I want it to be a lawyer, I was a poli- sci major, I interned with the Manhattan DA for seven years, that was it for me. And so to go from that, to this sort of hobby that's become a big part of my now job and everything else, I think is a testament to the fact that if at 23, 24, 25 you find something that's really keeping you up at night, and that's making you wake up early in the morning, go pursue that. There's no right or wrong way to do life, we're all just figuring it out.
Christian:
Yeah. You mentioned neo... What is it?
Ché:
Oh, neo-contemporary art. It's a recently used, made up term, to allow people to contextualize what street art is. Street art has this sort of trivial, kind of fun sound to it, but if I talk to you about Renaissance art, you're like, "Oh wow, that's Renaissance art". Or if I mention modern art you're, "Oh my God, that's modern".
So people started calling street art neo-contemporary, new-age contemporary art, because you're now having people that have taken artwork and put it outside to make it public, and now they're taking that same aesthetic and bring it back inside some museums, and galleries, and spaces like that. So it's just a newly coined term to make it sound more official.
Christian:
Sounds like... So I'm going to dance class right now, and it sounds like, what they deal with B-boy and B-girl, and turn it into break dance, it's a commercialize it. Do you think it's the same?
Ché:
It's similar, I think that there are... the sad reality of it is that there are certain cultural norms that different people experience, and to make the masses feel comfortable with it, it becomes a different thing.
It's like when you talk about hip hop versus rap, there's none of this. But for some people, it's like, "Well, hip hop is a bit more nuanced, and safe, and rap is grungy and dirty and raw", and I tell people when it comes to street art and graffiti and such, I don't see a difference.
I think that they are synonyms, it's semantics. Both are generally painted with spray paint, outdoor. The difference is that one tends to be formalized and legal, and one's illegal. But if I paint a beautiful portrait of Dr. King on a wall, but I do it illegally, but it's gorgeous. It's perfect rendering, is that graffiti or is that street art? If I pay you $2,000 to paint your name on my wall, is that graffiti or street...
We get too deep into the weeds of it. Sometimes you got to just appreciate it. Again, I've seen some of the most beautiful art I've seen, bar none, gallery, museums included, online included. I've seen some gorgeous things people do with letters. And you think about typography in general, and how lettering, and hand lettering, and hand scripting, and hand styling has grown right from the clothes you wear, and the person who chose that font, to the way you type. There's a certain nuance to that.
And I've seen some of the best done publicly, by just graffiti writers. But that's just me.
Christian:
I think you did mention this, but do you make art yourself? Any type of art? Singing doesn't count cause you say you can't sing.
Ché:
Ow man, I can sing, just not well is what I'm saying. I don't do visual art.
But here's a fun fact that most people don't know about me. I write poetry. I have since I was younger. I don't perform it, I don't really share it, but I do. I've always done that, it's been what I turned to when I'm really stressed out or something, I write down a poem about something. And it's one of the main reasons why when I was on campus, and we had this organization called the Brother to Brother committee, we did this poem Black Man Rising, and we did it. A big part of doing that was that... it was like my outlet to actually perform some semblance of poetry. So no, I don't draw or anything.
Christian:
But you mentioned the Brother to Brother committee.
Ché:
Yeah.
Christian:
Turn into the Male Involvement Coalition, which I am the co-chair of. And we just performed Black Man Rising in The Griot. Did you hear about that?
Ché:
I did not hear about this particular, no I didn't.
Christian:
I do have a video I'll show you after.
Ché:
I need that, I need to see it.
Christian:
And we did perform it in my sophomore year at BSU fashion show at Mechanics Hall.
Ché:
Do you kick it off?
Christian:
Yeah.
Ché:
Are you the, "Look at yourself again. Alright... alright... You're not a Black Man Falling, You're a Black Man Rising, by James H. Chapman.
Christian:
We switched it up, it was dedicated to Rob Jones.
Ché:
Okay. All right, I hear you.
Christian:
It was a cool experience, and I just found out that you were the founding members of Brother to Brother committee. So talk to me about that and how it was back then.
Ché:
So when I was a sophomore, there was a conference members of the camps were invited to, and it was called the CHAS conference, the coalition for higher achievement and success... consortium for higher achievement success. And they had one that was specific to black and brown males. And so a group of us attended it, and were so uplifted at Skidmore by the people we're hearing from.
I believe at Skidmore, by the people we were hearing from and hearing new initiatives at other colleges and campuses, when we came back to campus, we ended up just meeting a bunch of times and discussing some of the issues that were affecting people in our communities. As we were talking about doing things inevitably, we hit a point where we started doing events but we weren't a recognized student organization. We were just a bunch of students doing these things that having talks, having dialogues, facilitating conversations and we were just dynamic. You had students that wanted to be architects, that wanted to be lawyers or wanted to be doctors that were athletes, that were thespians. So we realized we kind of had something and said, "Okay, we could formalize this in RSO." There was Jeff Harris, who was class of 2012 went to high school with me and there were these two things we did in high school.
One was a daily affirmation and the other one was Black Men Rising that Jeff performed. So he introduced that to the campus and that became our calling card for this group. Then Antonio Willis-Berry, he was 2013, there was this Shawn whose last name is escaping me, but he was class of 2013, Jose Paz, who was class of 2012. We just had this group. Then there was a gentleman named Tyrone Billingsly who was kind of the elder statesman of our group along with Eric Collazo. The two of them didn't want a role officially. They were happy being like ex-official members but just guiding us because they'd been here longer. So when we finally got recognized, I was a senior advisor and Jeff was one of the co-chairs and we sort of just became this network of men on this campus that just wanted to talk about issues that impacted or afflicted us or just talk about uplifting things that were happening in the community, talk about music, eat some good food.
It really was his brotherhood that got developed. It's funny because initially, the way I became the Brother To Brother Committee is it started out as a Black and Brown Coalition, which sounded militant for some people, which we were cool with. But we said, "You know what? If indeed, we want to open this up, there's an opportunity," and we realized, You know what? There were folks on campus who weren't Black or Brown that were extreme allies, that were on the front lines for all these conversations and so we shouldn't exclude them like that. They're our brothers in arms. To be honest, there were women on campus who were willing to pick up arms, so to speak, and stand on those front lines and protest and argue with us in the same way. So there was this sort of overarching brotherhood, sisterhood, familial aspect of it.
But it all started with this group of brothers. So that was kind of that. What was crazy is, in the very first year as a recognized student organization, we have this picture that I love of ... there were five of us and we held seven awards from the SGA award ceremony, three for the organization and four for individual members of the organization. I was like, "This has to be a record for a first-year organization." It felt great to sort of have to prove why we belonged and then show like with our work that we were here just to make the campus a community, like a true community, which is wild.
Honestly, I remember the first time you told me about ... first of all I heard about the Men Involvement, the MIC. I was just like, "That sounds familiar. What happened to the BBC in it?" I think Rob Jones was just like, "Oh yeah. It kind of became this other group." I remember meeting you and Marcellis and some other brothers and I was like, "I couldn't have hoped for anything better." Part of it, it makes you sad. You're like, "Wow, they have some of the same conversations we had almost a decade ago." You wonder if that's sort of just the nature of being on a campus, having new students and you're always onboarding new people. But to see that there were people here who were dedicated and you know what I mean? It makes me happy to like sit across from you and be like, "Oh man, this is me 10 years ago."
Christian:
I appreciate that. I really do. I think that's the reason why we ended up calling it MIC because they were people who didn't identify as being Black or Brown, but who had the same struggles that we have as males and that's why we're open to any male. Our meetings are open to anybody. There are a lot of people who want to help us, who feel like even if they don't agree with some of the things that we believe in, they want us to know that. I think that results into a great dialogue, great conversations and us doing things on campus to made the campus better, so yeah.
Ché:
So Black Man Rising was super controversial the first time we did it.
Christian:
Why?
Ché:
Because effectively, you had this group of ... and our first group that did Black Men Rising were Jeff Harris, 2012, who played basketball, Freddie Santana, who's Puerto Rican, from New York, my year, 2011. Mudiaga Ohimor, who my year as well. Mud was 250, 6' 8". He was a big dude. Jonathan St. Firmin who was another New York guy who we know. Jonathan is probably like 5' 9" and if he's taller than 5' 9" and he's listening, I'm sorry Jonathan, but about 5' 9" to me, probably like 150, like a smaller dude and then myself. So you had this interesting range of gentlemen. Some were quieter, some were bigger, into parties. Some were athletes, some weren't, but you had this sort of force of effectively militant looking men talking about the powers of a Black man on a predominantly White campus.
So people were like, "You know what? This may not be the best thing for us, where we come off as too aggressive." We were just like, "Us? Aggressive? We're going to do it anyway. We're going to do it anyway." So we did. There were people inside our group, there were people inside the administration who were kind of like, "You know, this could not go the right way." We said, "There's something to speaking your truth that's important. This is what we experience and maybe we have a dialogue around that afterwards." But we did it and we got a standing ovation and organizations around Worcester asked us to come off campus and perform it, because it was something that was unique at the time for this group that you may not always see together kind of speaking truth to power, if you will. So yeah man, it was something.
Christian:
I feel that, no, I definitely feel that. I remember first being introduced to it ... My first year as the MIC freshman and sophomore year it was, I'll say, very slow. Not a lot of people attended. But like myself personally, I didn't feel as if it was that important. I wasn't into this, who I am now, into this like Black man power, being a Black man, especially on this campus. I wasn't really into that. I was just trying to go through school, get my degree, all that stuff, whatever. But then I really talked to Marcellis and other people, they introduced me to that. Like the importance of being a Black man.
Christian:
I know even coming from New York, the only thing I had to worry about was the police, because there wasn't a lot of White people that I really had to worry about. I came from a really mixed culture, like everybody from every ... It's New York. You know what I'm saying? You see everybody. But just being on campus was a different vibe and I didn't get that notion until sophomore year. Towards the end of sophomore year, that's when I would ... actually, towards the end of sophomore year, second semester after we did Black Man Rising I saw the power that we had. I saw the audience that we had, the support that we had. It opened my eyes and it was just like, "Damn. We do got power."
Ché:
You do.
Christian:
When you talk about it being controversial now, it will make me do it even more. I think freshman year and sophomore year, beginning of sophomore year I was like, "Hey, it was controversial. Let me not ... "
Ché:
It takes time to, I think, part of the collegiate experience, particularly if you're a student of color or someone whose English wasn't their first language or something to that effect there's the natural onboarding, right? You're 18, 17, 19 years old trying to figure out what you're going to do for the rest of your life. Trying to make it to 8:30 classes when everyone knows they suck.
Christian:
Mine was actually pretty good.
Ché:
Well lucky you, I guess, but you have that experience and then it's how do you socialize? How do you meet people? How do you make friends? How do you figure out who you are? Who are you, right? Whose are you? How do you look? How do you dress? What do you comfortable in? There was a guy when I was at Holy Cross named Tom, everyone called him Pajama Pants Tom. Pajama Pants Tom literally wore pajama pants to everything. He worked at Kimball. He wore them to class. Pajama Pants Tom had a 4.0 and took six classes every semester from the time he was a first-year student. He audited classes because he just wanted to learn more. I think he got a Fulbright, went abroad, came back with long hair. Looked just like Jesus. It was amazing. Pajamas Pants Tom was one of the smartest people I ever met.
But if you looked at him and saw this kid walking into class in the winter in pajama pants and flip flops, you're like, "What's wrong with this person?" but he was comfortable with himself early on and so that didn't matter. So I think that some get there earlier but there's that dynamic of just like, "I'm just trying to get these A's and go on." But also real quick, I just have to shout out Shawn Johnson because I realized his last name was Johnson, as well as Matt Harper and Darien and Jose Paz and Jeremiah Gonzalez.
Darien Henry was actually our freshmen apprentice, our first year student who was part of the group. The reason why I had to shout them out the same way that Eric and Tyrone was, because when I say it was a brotherhood, like I meant that, right? Like Lance Williams, like there are people who I don't see all the time, but if ever something happened, if every one of them had a big thing, Tony Zelayandia, that's family. It really is. So from the time that we were 20, 21, 19 years old to now, I'm 30 it is intriguing to me to think I'm on campus and we started this thing here and now people are going to be class 2023 they're on campus and people are still joining this thing. Man, that's something.
Christian:
Yeah, we definitely got it. We got freshmen really into it. It's just the legacy that you have and you see it grow and grow and it's just amazing. I'm glad to be a part of that legacy. MIC... Brother to Brother... It's a brotherhood that's kind of... so I notice... so I read that your mother played a big part in you going to Holy Cross, right?
Ché:
Yeah. Man.
Christian:
I feel like the question is asked a lot, what made you go to Holy Cross? What made you stay at Holy Cross?
Ché:
That's a good question. When I was deciding where I wanted to go, being the first in my, I think, semi-extended family to go to college, my mom, who was like, "I have to do everything right with her firstborn," hit a point where she said, "You know. You need to go to Harvard." I was just like, "You're right. I should go to Harvard." So we looked at schools, mainly looked at Ivy league schools, but I was going to a Jesuit high school in Harlem, New York. Big shout out to Rice High School.
Christian:
Wait, what's the name of it?
Ché:
Rice High School.
Christian:
Right. I feel like I know people from there but it's not there anymore.
Ché:
Kemba Walker-
Christian:
Right. Okay. He's not there anymore.
Ché:
... plays for the Boston Celtics went to Rice High School. But no, my high school is not there anymore, which is sad. It's sad. The bodega across street's still there.
Christian:
It's still there.
Ché:
Rice not there. But I was looking at a lot of Ivy league schools. My mom, wanted me to look at Morehouse because she thought there was something special about being, again, around other men who look like me and maybe had similar struggles or similar situations. Actually, a brother who was at Rice High School said, "You know what I think what would be a great institution for him? College of the Holy Cross." My mom looked into it, saw similarities to my high school. Thankfully, it wasn't an all boys school, all men's college. I did that for four years in high school, but she said, "I think this would be a great space for you. It's not too big. Great academics." At that time I felt that I was an athlete, so she was like, "Maybe you can do something around sports." I did not. I did not while I was here.
Christian:
We're going to talk about that too.
Ché:
No. But after talking about it, it actually was my second choice. After all the looking at colleges, I thought I wanted to go to Columbia. For me, I was like, "That's where I'm going, it's 20 blocks from where I grew up. One of my best friends in the world was going there." It was perfect. My mom said, "You need to leave New York." It actually is one of the best decisions she's ever sort of made for me. At the time I was angry, but her thing was so much of my family is in New York and stayed in New York and I needed to see something else. I had to see another part of the world. Oddly enough, it was only four hours away, but I said, "Okay. We'll see Holy Cross. Then if I don't like it, I guess I'll transfer." During my first semester here, I actually was uncomfortable.
I just it was too far and all my friends were back in New York and I was trying to acclimate to the new environment and Worcester wasn't New York City. I remember calling her and saying, "Ma, I need to go back home. I got to transfer to Columbia." She said, "Nope." She said, "Nope. I'm not helping you with any of the tuition, so you do that if you want to."
Christian:
You're paying for it.
Ché:
Right and I was just like, "Nope. I'm broke." I think for her it was, "You know what? You got to see this through and at the end of the day, if you don't like it, come back to New York." I find it to be intriguing that now it's been 13 years since I first got to Worcester and I still live here. Now I'm one of the biggest Cheerleaders in the city. But that's because of my mom kind of making me get here and honestly because of the campus, over time, making me fall in love with it. There was a person here before Rob named Boyd Servio-Mariano, Dr. Boyd Servio-Mariano. He's a doctor now, so I got to say that. Doc, which is what I call him, he spotted me as a first year student. There was a competition, a dance contest, during ALANA Student Weekend. Oh yeah, I used to boogie. I used to get down. So I got up on stage and won this dance contest.
Christian:
You won.
Ché:
Yeah. Yes I did.
Christian:
What was the competition?
Ché:
It was just they played music and you've got the freestyle to it and they played like an old Chris Brown song. It was Run It or something. I won and that was Friday night. Then Saturday night they did a trivia contest for Explore Asia. There was a group called Asia, which was for Asian students or Asian-American students.
Christian:
It's still here.
Ché:
So they had an Asian trivia contest and I went up against a kid, Chris Bondoc who actually went to my first high school before I transferred high schools. He's an Asian-American student. We had a trivia contest and I won. Point for me, take that Chris, all these years later. But Doc grabbed me and was just kind of like, "If you come here, you got to come find me." I was like, "All right, older guy. That's strange." Then I do come to campus, I realized because he went to my high school and at the time again, I was a young person with a lot of energy and didn't know all the best places to put it, so I was just running around and going crazy.
He grabbed me up and said, "Hey, you should come to this multicultural peer education group." I was just like, "No, I'm not going to do that. I'm not. I'm sorry." Then the MPEs, received tickets to the Boston Celtics game in Worcester. I said, "Oh, I need tickets to this game." He goes, "Only way to get tickets is if you come to a few meetings." I was just like, "Ah. You got me."
Christian:
He got you.
Ché:
So I came to the meetings and I loved it and I loved what they were talking about and I was all for it. then I went to the Celtics game and that was it. I'd inadvertently found myself a mentor. We literally had a conversation this past weekend. That's my guy. But he's another person who worked in the Office of Multicultural Education and picked me up and helped mold me into a productive person. That's what helped keep me at Holy Cross that he introduced me to guys like Tyrone Billingsly and Eric Collazo and other brothers on campus that were doing great things. He kind of forced me into, or some organizations that led to me getting on the BSU board and knowing the infrastructure to help found the Brother To Brother Committee.
He got me involved off campus and working with local junior high schools and high schools and talking to young people off campus and understanding what nonprofits role in developing a city were or an interfacing with a college. He kept me on the right kept me in shape when I stepped out of line, like a big brother would. So really, I think that he's a big part of that. I had somebody to look out for me because honestly, we all have on campus who knows kind of what happens, right? Like do I just spiral out and kind of not go on to do some things I've done. I don't know. So I think that's what kept me. My mom got me here, to be honest and then I had a mentor, I had a big brother who made sure I finished out strong.
Christian:
You kind of answered my next question. Who you we went to when anything went well or went wrong.
Ché:
I had some upperclassmen, like I said, Tyrone. I got Lawrence Dickson who play basketball. He's a cool dude. I saw him at the game the other night. Eric Collazo who was my RA my first year, rocky start, but then I was dancing at his wedding. When I say the brotherhood is strong, I mean that. So I think those are the people I turn to. And then there are people younger than me too, right? Like Jeff who wants a high school with me was a guy I roomed with my junior year when he was a sophomore. We had a quad. My first year roommate was my roommate every single year. That's still one of my best friends. If anyone could ever marry him, which, tough order, I'll be his best man. That's that.
Big shout out to Stefan. But I feel like I had this network also and I have to give her a huge shout out. Brianna Turner, who was my year at Holy cross. Licensed Social Worker, dynamic woman. They used to call us the velvet glove and the iron fist because Bri could make something out of nothing. She was just dynamic and got things done. We were the two co-chairs or the leads, I guess, because NPS didn't have co-chairs. So she was very task-oriented, goal-oriented, task master, bullet point list and I was the velvet glove. Like I'm going to make the sound beautiful and like sell it to the masses. It worked well because we both knew our strengths.
She was another person who those days where I was like, "I don't feel like doing this," would pick me up by my collar and be like, "Nah, come on. We got stuff to do. Let's get after it. So I learned a lot about project management as a student here because of Bri. I don't think Bri would even consider that or acknowledge that or call it project management. But she was someone who got me to understand, task management. I took that with sort of the personality that I had and I'm like, that's what helped me become a project manager for the City.
Christian:
That's fire. So I will have to say my person is Rob Jones. Shout out to Rob Jones.
Ché:
Big shout out to Rob Jones.
Christian:
He put me into MIC, put me on to a MIC and kind of like forced me into MIC, in a way.
Ché:
I see a trend. That was the trend.
Christian:
I think we all need those people to go to even just to talk to. I'm pretty sure I know the answer to this, but did you ever feel uncomfortable because of how you looked, or who you ...
Christian:
... feel uncomfortable because of how you looked or who you were on campus?
Ché:
Yeah, I-
Christian:
Or even, so sorry to cut you off, have you ever felt the impostor syndrome?
Ché:
Oh, I still feel imposter syndrome now. Yeah. To answer the first part, your question, I am a lot of things. There are a lot of words to describe me, right. But for me, I'm an African American male from New York City, right. I love hip hop and rap music. I love ridiculous movies. I love sports. Some of that is considered stereotypical, right. Expected of me as a six foot three male who looks like me. And I think I struggled with that at first when I got to campus, right. I started listening to a lot more Bruce Springsteen, and Def Leppard, and Poison, and Mötley Crüe, and country music, which I never listened to growing up, but I was like all right, Dixie Chicks is going to be it because I want it to fit in to what a Holy Cross student was, right. I stopped wearing the stuff that I was wearing and started switching up and going, all right. I could wear some khakis and boat shoes.
Christian:
Right what you're wearing now.
Ché:
Yeah, but I wear this for work. Don't come at me like that, all right.
Don't do me like that. I have to go in a closet, all right. But honestly, right, I was just like this is what's expected of a Holy Cross student. And I went through that for a year of just why am I wearing these cardigans all the time? Honestly, right. Because that I thought that was ... And then it took me a minute to get comfortable in myself to be like you know what? If you didn't hear the new Gucci Mane album, that's your fault. You're missing out, right. I'm not the one ruined and things. And yeah, I mean I dress like this for work, but in all seriousness, I think that getting back into whatever I felt was appropriate for me and whatever culture I represented, it took a minute, but I got there. And I think that as far as imposter syndrome, I think that was part of it, right. I was trying to acclimate and blend in because I wanted to feel like I was a part of something, not realizing I was already a part of something.
And even now I find myself in some rooms, or on some boards, or on some committees and I walk in and I'm just like I can't believe I'm here. And I think that almost everyone feels. I know famous, well-paid, well-off people that I've got a chance to meet who will confide that they feel like they don't belong in some of the rooms they get, or they feel like they shouldn't have won the awards compared to some of their peers. And I think that's just natural. You know what I mean? I think when you do something extraordinary, quite often you don't expect to do something extraordinary. It happens and you fall into it, and you're like oh my God, here's this thing. And a lot of that is just a team around you. I have a team around me of friends, and coworkers, and confidence, mentors and mentees that will lift me up when I need it. And like, "You did some dope, you did a TED talk. That's great. Enjoy that."
And the ones that will deflate my ego sometimes. They're just like, "You're acting out. Relax. All right, let's not forget the way you dress for work," like you did to me. So I think that's all important to your makeup. A lot of people will say look at your five closest friends and that'll tell you who you are. And I think that that's a really simplistic way to look at it, but the people that you surround yourself with, the people that you spend most of your voluntary time with, that tells you a lot about who you are and who you can be. They're the ones that define some of your limitations, however you may see them, because they're going to limit you or they're going to push you to whatever's next. And so I'm lucky to have some people that I consider good friends or just kind of friends that I can call on and say, "Here's this crazy opportunity." They'll be like, "Go get it. Go after it. And if you don't get it, at least now you know how to do this thing that can maybe get the next opportunity to you."
Christian:
Told you I was going to get back to that athletic dream that you had, because honestly, all jokes aside, I had the same goal. I was trying to walk on to the baseball team. It didn't work out. I think that was probably the toughest thing I ever had to face all my life. I mean I went from a real high to a real low, and it was just like I was doing things that I probably would've never done before. I felt like I was trying to find myself again because before that happened I was a baseball player. After that, I didn't know who I was or what I was. I was really trying to find myself. I feel like you probably went through the same thing.
Ché:
Similar. I think that that I was always a nerd first. You know what I mean? I was always an academic, but I love sports and I was okay at them, and so it's funny, I got here. That did not work out, obviously, walking on or anything. And then played club basketball, intramurals. We won intramurals four years, twice in the A league, twice in the B league, a big shot, but we lost the championship. Anthony DiMichele, who's a football player, they beat us. And if I don't mention it, he was going to mention it, or make a comment or something when they posted it, so I just got to put it out there. But I never stopped playing. The school is getting a new field house, right. And that's fine. But back before they destroyed the last field house, my name was on the back board up until two years ago, right. Because we did a dunk contest and I dunked and put my name up with a sticker.
That is like the best part of any legacy I got sports-wise on campus, and that was cool. That was cool that it still stayed there. But I think, back to your point, at some point you have to rebrand, just figure out what your thing is, right. It's like if you're a person that threw amazing parties in college, and then you look back and you're like wow, I'm 53 and I still throw these crazy house parties. Not saying that's not fine. If that's your thing, cool. Shout out to all my 53-year-olds throwing parties. But that just wouldn't be what I want to be known for, right. I'd hope that I had accomplished something in my life. And I think that a big part of the growth of your experience through your time on a campus is understanding that you can be dynamic. You don't have to be ... In high school you kind of fall into well, I am an athlete. I'm a great student. I'm the captain of the chess team. You have that thing that defines you.
Ché:
And I feel like as you grow, you want to be a utility person, you want to be dynamic. You want people to go, "Oh yeah, Christian. I know him from this thing," in one room and then another room go, "Oh right, but he's also really great at this thing." I think that you can be many things to many people, and that's something that it took me a while to learn, but once I did, that was it. I want it to be the Renaissance of all Renaissance.
Christian:
So I got a lot more questions. So all right, after your Holy Cross years. Oh wait, so a question. What are the untold stories of Holy Cross from your end?
Ché:
The untold stories of Holy Cross.
Christian:
Yeah, spilling the beans out here.
Ché:
There's a trillion untold stories of Holy Cross.
Christian:
We just need one.
Ché:
All right. One thing that happened on campus one year was we were talking about the experiences that students of color have on predominant white institutions campus. And we thought about some of the HBCUs and how they have yard shows, right. Stomp shows and such. And so we threw one. So when I was a senior, we figured out ways to finagle some money.
Christian:
On campus?
Ché:
On campus. And some of the administrators had contacts because they're a part of historically black Greek letter organizations. And we rented a stage. And right in the Kimball Quad, right down the stairs, the same way they do battle of the bands, we took that stage, we brought out four step teams. We had the Rhythm Nation Steppers also perform. We had people cooking out, right. They were cooking burgers, catfish, fried fish, like they did back down South. People were doing sides and soul food. We have food from the local places. Addie. Do you know Addie? Addie wasn't around at the time, this place called Sweet Teas, but yeah, same kind of feel, right. We even got some food from up at Home Style, right. And we got a microphone, and we had a DJ, and the DJ was playing hip hop, urban music the whole time. And then when there was time for show time, they did their step show, and we had a ball. And then we throw after party afterwards up at Hogan.
And for me it was amazing because for that six-hour period we got to feel like the campus was ours, right. And I think that that, for me, was a beautiful thing because the students came from BC, and from BU, and Becker, and Clark. I mean it was packed, not just Holy Cross students, because other people wanted to see what it'd be like if they also, at their traditionally none necessarily super diverse campus, can come and see just what a mass of us would look like, and what a party for all of us looked like. And it was something. And so I'd say that it was something I wish would've continued after we were gone because I think it is a good reminder of what can happen.
Similar to when Holy Cross played Howard, and Howard brought the band, and the dancers, and everyone up. And then four of us ended up going down to Howard the next weekend to visit. Class one Friday wasn't important that weekend. But we went down to Howard and we got to go to their homecoming, and there were so much love from Howard. They brought us on the field. We got to do the swag surf with everybody, because it was just oh, look at these three students of color who are extending themselves beyond Worcester to come down here to this area. And so that love was something that literally inspired us to bring it back and have this yard show step show. So there's some stuff that doesn't make it through kind of the storytelling pass down components of what we're doing, but is something that one of the things I hang my hat on this campus.
Christian:
You definitely should.
Ché:
I was excited.
Christian:
But transitioning into after college. So MCPHS. Got it. Boom. University. Right. Assistant director of engagement or student affairs?
Ché:
Student activities, student engagement.
Christian:
Okay. And initially wanted to get into law and government, but ended up there.
Ché:
At a college.
Christian:
Right. If you want to talk about that, you can.
Ché:
Yeah.
Christian:
Yeah, go ahead.
Ché:
Yeah. So I was prelaw, poli-sci. I got to my senior year and realized I don't think I want to be a lawyer anymore. And after my mom stopped crying, she was like, "What are you going to do?"
Christian:
I mean hold on. Not that there aren't any lawyers coming out of Holy Cross. Did she expect that?
Ché:
Oh yeah. No, for her, that was it.
Christian:
Interesting.
Ché:
My son, the lawyer was how a lot of conversations started. That was a thing.
Christian:
So Thanksgiving was-
Ché:
It was awkward. It was awkward, yeah. I only got one serving of mac and cheese, so you know how that goes. But she effectively was just like, "What are you going to do?" And I said, "For the first time in my life, I really don't know, but I do know I'm not moving home. I'm going to figure it out." And I start applying to jobs and looking for opportunities. And one of the former VPs here was Jackie Peterson, who's amazing. She recommended that I apply for the position at MCPHS. And I was staying on campus. I was working at [OME 00:49:20] for the summer, and they paid me a small stipend and then I got to live on campus, so I got a place to stay. And I interviewed for this position that was totally above my punching weight. You know what I mean? I was like I'm not going to get this. And Dean Peterson sends a recommendation and it got me the interview.
And again to that earlier point, right, sometimes you just need that foot in the door to make it happen, and I must've crushed the interview because they pulled me in and said, "Hey, we think you'd be great for this position." Right. First person ever in this position, I get to build and develop a program based on some other things they've been doing, and I said, "Let's do it." And I spent two years there working with students, working for students, engaging with people. The highlight of my time there is I got inducted into Phi Lambda Sigma, which is a pharmacy fraternity, not a pharmacist, but in this pharmacy frat, so shout out to all my brothers and sisters from Phi.
Christian:
I tried to hold it in.
Ché:
No, that's cool. That's cool. I got a pin and everything. It's official. But you know what? While there I had a supervisor who was a Dean of students, effectively the de facto leader of campus, named Shuli Xi, and he was so into the idea of me being a statesman. He would always say that to me. Don't be a politician, be a statesman. You want to be a person of and for the people and with the people, not just someone looking to get elected. And because of that, he brought me into his government affairs meeting. He made sure that when there was a consortium of the colleges that, I guess, I served on the student activities one, but also went to some of the student affairs ones in general with people who were in positions way above my own.
When I told him I wanted to join a committee at the chamber of commerce, he said, "Fine, and we'll give you the time off you need when you got to go to those meetings." When I told them I want it to be a Rotarian, and at the time I was one of the youngest Rotarians in the city, part of the Worcester Rotary Club, he said, "Great, we'd love to have MCPHS represented there." And so he supported sort of the dynamism of me going I don't know what I want to do, but I want to do everything and see what's going on. And he was cool with that. Even down to when I went and told him I was leaving to go work for the city, for the government, he wasn't like, "Oh my God," he was just like, "I'm sorry to lose you. But yeah, that's the next step of your life." He looked out for me as a person, which I appreciated so much. And my time there was great. I know a lot of pharmacists now and optometrists. Getting my glasses is super easy. If ever I need acupuncture, I get a discount.
That's sweet. But it was a great step in transitioning from 22 to 24 because I learned how to be in charge of something, right. Student activities was mine. The budget, I managed the Student Government Association, I developed a campus activities board and managed them. And so I learned project management, I learned people management. It was great, and it was a perfect transferable thing for kind of the next step in my career. So it was a kind of unique path. But again, it goes back to there's no right way to do anything. You kind of figure it out as you go.
Christian:
So I wanted to ask you what do you think has a big impact on a community? Let's say for yourself as an individual working at a desk, law and government. That's my view. Law and government. Or working with the community as you do now?
Ché:
So the answer I'm going to give you is a cop out answer, I'm going to let you know that, but there's a reason why. And so it is a reason why. Neither one of them, quite honestly, is more important than the other one. I think that they both, and as cliché as it sounds, are both equal for different reasons, right. I think that if you're a person that is solely behind a desk, and let's say you solely work on legal matters, on policy, on development of strategies, that is how you input change. That's how you impact things to a point that they're standardized, right. I can be a great leader and I can say, "You know what? As long as I'm in office, this is going to be the thing," but as soon as I'm out of office, if someone else just comes in and goes, "I don't believe in that," that's done. There's no policy there. There's nothing kind of on paper. There's no legal ramification of it. It only impacts a very small population or people at a certain time.
I think that when it comes to community development, community impact, you want something that has longevity, right. Every parent wants for their kid to not have to struggle the same way they did. I think that that should work as far as generations of constituents and community. I don't want the next you, or me, or whoever to have to fight the same fights I fought. Then what did I do for that time I was around? But I think that you want to be authentic to the place you are, and that there's a component that has to come from the community, right. Holy Cross' whole mission ... I just always say men and women for others. And then it was a shift to men, and women for and with others. And that shift is important, it's imperative, right. It's not about doing things for people, it's about doing things with people, bringing them along, having a conversation, knowing when it's time to lead and when it's time to follow.
And so I think that you got to work with the community to see what the community wants, right. Because you could have a great idea and the community could be like, "We don't care about this right now," right. "We have this other more dire thing." And so you have to know what the thing is before you can implement policy, or structure, or an infrastructure around it. But if you just have people that are, let's say, marching in the street, and fighting the man, and having ideas, but no-one flipped that switch to implement policy, well then you just have angry people, and another population of angry people who are mad that this population's angry, and they are just butting heads and not getting anything. If you just have people sitting in a room being bureaucrats, then nothing actually permeates to the community because you have no idea what the community wants. You're just doing whatever you saw online, or on TV and you think you're doing the best thing, but the two of you come together, that's how change actually happens. That's how real, positive, sustainable change happens.
So I'm a person that hates sitting behind my desk, to be honest. I'm not a fan of it. I'm a person that wants to be around people. And you have those days where you're like I've had nine meetings in a row. I haven't eaten. I've been just taking information in. But if I don't have time to go sit down and write that stuff up, and write those notes, and get it out to other departments to make things happen, or follow up with community partners because I didn't really understand something they said, but I want to do more with it, I'm missing the boat. So I know I just kind of said both, and that's not the answer you want, but I do think that both are equally important.
Christian:
Yeah, I kind of expect that coming from you.
Ché:
I mean, yeah. You know what I'm saying?
Christian:
Yeah. And you did mention the mission statement. Holy Cross mission statement. I feel like you have that before you even got to Holy Cross. Is that true?
Ché:
Oh yeah. That's the way I was raised. My mom said two things to me every day from the time that I was probably 3 or 4 going off to school, to the time that I was 18. My mother always said, "Hey, listen. Treat everyone the way you want to be treated," which is just basic. But to this day, she still, "Treat everyone the way you want to be treated, and be a leader, not a follower." To the point that when I was 10, she'd say, "Be a leader," and I'd say, "Not a follower. Leave me alone," but I think that for her there was something about making my own decision, and being able to decipher what's right from what's wrong.
And also whether I'm walking into any building, whether it's the person that's the concierge, or the person picking up trash, or the maintenance person, or the CEO of a company, you treat everybody with respect, and you show love to everyone. And I take that even beyond that, right. Whether I'm walking in City Hall and I'm talking to the mayor, or the grounds crew, or a person who might be homeless in front of City Hall, I say, "What's up?" I show love. I don't always have things to help, but I'm always going to give you respect as a human being.
And I think that that's something my mother instilled in me and then it moved on through all my schooling, and the Holy Cross sort of just drove it home a bit. But that's just the way that I was raised.
Christian:
So you got this mission statement Holy Cross, but then you got your own from back home: be a leader, not a follower. And so was the other one?
Ché:
Treat everyone the way you want to be treated.
Christian:
Treat everyone the way you want to be treated. I kind of struggle on that. There was one where treat everyone the way you think they should be treated.
Ché:
Yep. That one, I think, gets problematic.
Christian:
Yeah.
Ché:
I think no one wants me treated poorly, right?
Christian:
Right.
Ché:
So the idea is that you reciprocate that. I think treat everyone the way you think they should be treated gets into some real interesting things with some of your own biases or implicit biases or unrecognized issues you may have with some things. I think it's well-intended, but I think that it can lead to some interesting situations.
Christian:
And the one I never agreed with was treat everybody the same.
Ché:
Nope, same. I think though, whenever you talk about things like DEI, right, diversity, equity, inclusion, there's a reason that it's equity and not equality, right? There's an image people always paint of if you have three kids looking over a fence and they're different heights and you give them the same size box, that's equality. Everyone has the same stuff. That doesn't help all the kids, right? You want equity. You want the really short kid to have a taller box because then they can all see the game. And I think that in certain pockets of our communities, you're starting to see that. It needs to permeate more, but that equity is important. And that doesn't mean that you give everyone a dollar, right? The millionaire doesn't necessarily need that dollar, but that person that's struggling maybe needs $5 or $10 to make it out. And that's obviously me oversimplifying it, but I think that that's part of that being someone for and with others, you know what I mean?
Christian:
Yeah.
Ché:
It's the width to understand what the need is, and then it's the for that if you have more, you got to help out. And I don't mean to get all socialist here. That's not what I'm trying to do, but I'm being honest.
Christian:
Yeah, for real, bro.
Ché:
You know what I mean? You have to be realistic and then understanding what the needs are of people, if we're going to truly help and benefit people.
Christian:
Yeah. So I guess with the combination, if you have a combination with what your mother taught you and what Holy Cross taught you, have you ever came up with a mission statement that drives you to do the work you do now?
Ché:
The honest truth is that I have a statement that that drives me. It has a swear in it. You can figure out which word that is, that that is the one. I have two things that matter to me that drive everything I do. The first is I want to impact my community. And so that's whatever I have, right: time, talent, treasure, anything. I want to make sure that when all is said and done, whenever my last moment is here, that people said he cared and he did good by us, whatever that community can mean. And that can be my hyperlocal community, that can be my global community, whatever the case is.
The other is do cool stuff. And I think that for me, there's something special about doing projects that people think are interesting and fun. Not that there aren't things that are just that ... like making the microchip is important, and for some people that's super interesting. For the other people it's all right, whatever. But for me, I want to do stuff that people are like, "Aw man, that was awesome. That was an experience. That was a moment." Because creating moments is difficult in life and you hope to have and share a bunch with other people. So if I can combine the two and I can do things that are going to impact and change my community for the better and make sure that stuff is cool, that's what both allows me to rest but also keeps me up at night. You know what I mean?
Christian:
Yeah, I got you.
Ché:
Like thinking of how to do it, but then sleeping happy when I make it happen.
Christian:
Yeah, definitely feel that. What was your favorite project so far?
Ché:
One of them's a selfish answer, and one's not. I'm going to give you two quick ones. This year as part of the public art project POW! WOW! that I helped bring to Worcester, we were able to paint murals and do workshops and activations with youth in a public housing area of the city of Worcester. And we also painted on the abutting schools and did workshops in the abutting schools to this area. And so we got to work with a population that doesn't necessarily see academic development the same way, that doesn't feel it the same way, that may not even know it's happening, with kids that quite often feel overlooked. And I know, because I was one of those kids growing up.
And so to go over there and have these young people feel a new appreciation for the arts and feel like celebrities are coming around their neighborhood to paint, and getting tutorials from people that have worked with Disney or Hello Kitty, or free merchant from people that designed Desus & Mero stuff. That, to me, is the coolest thing. And to see educators take that and use that in their curriculum and then see it painted on their schools and have it be representational, so if you are a student that was Dominican or Mexican or East Asian or Native American, you had someone that looked like you, that can speak your native language and talk to you about what they're doing. That is like the coolest thing, you know?
Christian:
Yeah, I see it.
Ché:
And also, right after that, I was able to put together a project with the Billionaire Boys Club, which is a brand that's run by Pharrell. It was a quick project, but they two muralists from Brooklyn paint an ice cream truck and they drove the ice cream truck around different parts of Brooklyn, Atlantic Avenue where Barclays is, then go to Harlem and drive it around their store and the Apollo Theater. And I got to help helm the design of the truck and the design of the merchandise they gave out. And as a kid, I remember seeing Lil Wayne and The Clips, and Billionaire Boys Club stuff and Pharrell. And I couldn't afford that at all. And so to go from not being able to afford that, to being able to help them put it together and to hold a shirt that I couldn't buy as a kid and be able to give it to friends of mine and go like, "Oh, that's a thing we worked on." It makes me giddy, man. That's super cool.
Christian:
I feel that. I feel that.
Ché:
And it's also something that drives me, you know what I mean? I always say if the last project I worked on is the coolest project I worked on or the most impactful project I worked on, then I'm failing. I have to always strive for what the next thing is and help more people, impact more people, do cooler things.
Christian:
I see it in your face.
Ché:
Oh man, I'm hyped.
Christian:
I see it in your face.
Ché:
I'm excited.
Christian:
All right, I got an interesting question, because you mentioned to me about when you first got here, Worcester wasn't what it is today.
Ché:
It was and it wasn't. I think that the momentum that Worcester has right now is recent, but the bones were there.
Christian:
Okay. And your job entails you marketing the city of Worcester, right?
Ché:
To an extent, yeah.
Christian:
Okay. How would you market the city of Worcester to a freshman year Ché Anderson?
Ché:
That's a good question. It's funny because 18-year-old Ché would need a very different thing. I would say, am I trying to get Ché into Worcester or I want to get him to think about staying in Worcester?
Christian:
You can do both. Whatever you please.
Ché:
Okay. So if I was trying to get Ché off campus, I would explain to him that there is opportunity to see things that aren't necessarily mundane or things that he's seen too much and that he's probably tired of seeing off-campus. I would explain some of the people he could meet at other campuses. I would tell him about the Worcester Art Museum and some of the exhibits they have there. I would talk about the Historical Museum and explain all the ridiculous things that were invented in Worcester, and that he should go down and check it out: from the smiley face to birth control to barbed wire to the fact that Clyde from Bonnie and Clyde lived here.
I would say to him that there's a show that's becoming popular called Bob's Burgers, that he's probably seen an episode or two of, and that the voice of Bob is from Worcester and that he was also the voice of the main guy in Home Movies and in Archer, which are shows that he loves. I would tell him that Tower Hill Botanical Garden's a great place for a date, and that if you want to take anybody out, they can walk through some meadows, and that was cute, and probably get him some points there.
Christian:
It's cold out, you know.
Ché:
But it gets warm at some point, you know what I mean? I would tell him that he shouldn't be afraid to go to Wachusett Mountain and try skiing or snowboarding because I didn't try that until this year, and that had been kind of cool to try when I was younger and more able-bodied and 50 pounds lighter. That would have been great. And I would have stressed the food, like he got taken to some cool places for some real good food, but there were so many places he missed out on just because he didn't know. So if I was trying to get him off campus, that's what I'd say.
And if I was trying to get him to stay here, which he wouldn't even think about three more years, I would bring in Ed Augustus because when I was 21, he sat with me and he said these words and I'm never going to forget them. He said, "I get it. You're super New York, you're so New York. And you know what? You can go back to New York, and I'm sure you'll be successful no matter where you go. But if you go to New York, you will be one of thousands of interesting, dynamic, intelligent, successful people. And if you make it and you become rich beyond your imagination, you are, again, one of thousands of rich people running around with other rich people, and that's it. And maybe you join a board or a committee and you feel good about it, but New York City's always going to be New York. That's just the infrastructure there. That's who that city is. But if you stay in Worcester and you find a way to figure out what your thing is and you do it successfully and honestly and earnestly, then you can be a part of a big change. And so it's up to you. Do you want to just go be part of a machine that's going to run without you, or do you want to help helm the machine and make some things happen?"
And it's like he was feeding right to my ego, but I was like, "I want to make stuff happen." And that was it. That was what he said to me, and that's why I took the job at MCPHS and joined a bunch of committees, and that's why I went to work for him. And all these years later, that hasn't changed, right? I think about other cities I can live in and some job offers I got which were really great opportunities, but every day I wake up and I'm in a position and I have the contacts and the context to move the needle in Worcester. And at 30, I seen ancient to you, but I'm still considered a young adult.
Christian:
You talk like you...
Ché:
No, no, no, I'm just saying, bro. You were talking about clothes a minute ago, so I'm just saying. I'm just saying. But I think that that, to me, is amazing, that I can call city leadership and people that make differences and I can come back to college and talk to college students and see what people want, and then actually make it happen. Kanye, who I know is a person that people kind of get anxious about sometimes.
Christian:
Who?
Ché:
Kanye West, but he has this lyric of, "My mind is like a child's imagination and dreams become reality." And I think that, first of all, it's a flex. It is. But how many people can say that, that I can think of something and then go make it happen?
Christian:
Right.
Ché:
I love that.
Christian:
Yeah. I think as you were speaking, I was just thinking of my high school coach when I was trying to decide back when I was thinking of still playing baseball in college. He was just telling me, "Would you rather be a big fish in an ocean or a big fish in a small pond. Make the right decision," and I'm glad I'm here. I think you feel the same.
Ché:
Yeah.
Christian:
We all are, but just...
Ché:
Just real quick, I want to say, a friend of mine, Kate, always says that it's important to know if you want to be a big fish in the ocean or a big fish in a small pond. And I always tell Kate, "I'm a shark everywhere." So just so people understand that. It's not a matter of going like, "Well, I'm in a pond, so I'm a trout now." No. No, you are who you are, you know what I mean?
Christian:
Right.
Ché:
You put me anywhere, I'll be fine. I just really like Worcester.
Christian:
I like that. I'm a shark... yeah... I mean, like I said, I always feel like I belong. So I'm going to steal that from you.
Ché:
Now you got it. Now it's yours.
Christian:
All right, so I wasn't going to struggle with this one. This is like speed round, so you be answering stuff before I even ask the question. All right. So a couple of them is like this or that, you know what I'm saying?
Ché:
Yeah.
Christian:
So just answer, you know what I'm saying?
Ché:
Yeah.
Christian:
All right. So Martin or Fresh Prince?
Ché:
Fresh Prince.
Christian:
Okay. Prince or Michael Jackson?
Ché:
Oh man, Michael.
Christian:
Okay. Goodfellas or Casino?
Ché:
Goodfellas. That's easy.
Christian:
Baby Boy or Boys in the Hood?
Ché:
Boys in the Hood.
Christian:
Would you rather read or write?
Ché:
I'd rather write.
Christian:
Read or listen to a podcast?
Ché:
Read.
Christian:
Sweats or suits?
Ché:
Sweats.
Christian:
Miss Woo's or Boulevard?
Ché:
Oh, Miss Woo's.
Christian:
Okay, thank you.
Ché:
Yeah. Yeah, Miss Worcester.
Christian:
Life as a student or life as an alumnus?
Ché:
Life as an alumnus. I feel like there's so much more of life to live.
Christian:
Kimball or C-roads?
Ché:
Oh, man. You know, it's funny. I would've said Crossroads when I was a student here, but as an alum, man, if I can go back and eat everything I wanted for a few hours, Kimball's the move.
Christian:
Oh, man. All right. What's the ideal vacation spot?
Ché:
Mars.
Christian:
Mars?
Ché:
Yeah, if I can go anywhere right now, going to outer space would be cool, man.
Christian:
Okay. All right. Back to Holy Cross. Favorite dorm?
Ché:
Mulledy. Shout-out to freshman year.
Christian:
Oh, I'm going to agree with you with that. That was like it was its own world.
Ché:
It is. It's its own like 300-person space. It's great.
Christian:
No, for real. Yeah so many-
Ché:
Big shout-out to Mulledy.
Christian:
Yeah, so many... Favorite professor?
Ché:
Predrag Cicovacki, philosophy and poli-sci, who one time made up an entire class based on a fake conversation he was having in real time with Bill Belichick about them beating the Jets the night before, and somehow weaved international political relations and utopian society into this fake conversation he was having with Bill Belichick. And it was a seminar class. So for two hours, he held a fake conversation while teaching us. That man is a God. Shout out to Cicovacki. That's my guy.
Christian:
Knicks or Nets?
Ché:
Knicks.
Christian:
Why?
Ché:
Because New York, because the Nets are from Jersey.
Christian:
But I love the comment of basketball is okay without the Knicks.
Ché:
Right, right. It's not. Spike Lee is a better fan than any fan the Nets have. Again, the Nets are from Jersey. The Nets don't have anyone who got hobbled and then got back on the court like Willis Reed. And did the thing, the Nets don't have any championships. Kevin Durant's soft.
Christian:
Come on, now.
Ché:
I love my Knicks, man.
Christian:
All right, best era at basketball.
Ché:
Oh, best era?
Christian:
Yeah.
Ché:
I mean, the '90s were a great era, I remember, growing up as a kid. Quick shout-out to Bob Cousy though, just because it's a Holy Cross thing, so I got to say.
Christian:
Of course. Last question: five hot takes on Worcester.
Ché:
Five hot takes on Worcester. Hot take number one: Worcester is not recognized as it, but is the cultural epicenter of New England. Two: Worcester is going to be the state capitol once Boston goes under water and sinks; global warming, so things happen. Three: Worcester has the best food scene in the area. Four: in the next 20 years, Worcester's problem is going to flip from not having enough students wanting to live here, to not having enough space for all the people that want to live here post-graduation. And five: somewhere in that 20 years, I'm going to be the mayor of Worcester. Boom. Hot takes.
Christian:
All right, Ché. Listen, man, thank you very much.
Ché:
No, thanks for doing this.
Christian:
I appreciate it. Yeah. It's been a pleasure.
Ché:
Definitely.
Maura:
That's our show. I hope you enjoyed hearing about just one of the many ways that Holy Cross alumni have been inspired by the mission to be men and women for and with others. A special thanks to today's guests and everyone at Holy Cross who has contributed to making this podcast a reality. If you or someone you know would like to be featured on this podcast, please send us an email at [email protected]. If you like what you hear, then please leave us a review. This podcast is brought to you by the Office of Alumni Relations at the College of the Holy Cross. You can subscribe for future episodes wherever you find your podcasts. I'm your host Maura Sweeney, and this is Mission-Driven. In the words of Saint Ignatius of Loyola, "Now go forth and set the world on fire."
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