In the third of this three-part series, Maura Sweeney '07 speaks with Jim Cavanagh '13 about forging his own path from Holy Cross into the legal profession.

Recorded September 11, 2019

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Transcript

Jim:                        I realized, wow. I think what I learned at Holy Cross and I talked about the excitement of being a history major and getting lost in the stacks at Dinand. You just learned the importance of being a learner and learning that if you think, and even though things are difficult, if you buckle down and read and try to learn, you will learn and then when you do learn and you do put in the work that you can contribute and you can and you can serve.

Maura:                 Welcome to Mission-Driven, where we speak with alumni who are leveraging their Holy Cross education to make a meaningful difference in the world around them. I'm your host, Maura Sweeney from the class of 2007, director of alumni career development at Holy Cross. I'm delighted to welcome to today's show.

                                In part three of this three part series, we speak with Jim Cavanagh. Jim graduated from Holy Cross in 2013 and Notre Dame law school in 2015. Despite being a fellow history major like his siblings, Mary and Joe, Jim decided to apply his Holy Cross education differently. We hear about Jim's decision to try out teaching theology before going to law school. Today Jim works as an associate at Jones day and talks about how his Holy Cross training has prepared him for the multidimensional work that he does. We wrap up by bringing the three of them back together for a speed round about their favorite memories from Holy Cross.

                                I'm excited now to turn to Jim, class of 2013, also a history major. You taught theology at Saint Sebastian school in Needham for two years before choosing to go to Notre Dame law where you graduated in 2018. You're an associate at Jones day doing something a little bit different, working across practice groups including business litigation, merger and acquisitions, banking and finance, tax credit transactions and pro bono work. You similarly take on pro bono work with the TGC Memorial fund and you've received your own slate of awards while at Notre Dame including the American law Institute CLE award for scholarship and leadership and the faculty award for excellence in civil procedure and health law, which, being recognized by faculty is really significant because I know that law school faculty seem to be some of the toughest out there.

Jim:                        Right. Actually it's funny. So those awards are given based on your exam, which you're anonymous. You have a number. So I think on my civil procedure professor in particular, must've been like, “that kid won the award?” I think some of the questions I asked during my... That was my first classes I took in law school and I just remember asking a few questions, realizing, Oh, wow, I really don't know much, but that was a good... I mean, there's so many experiences in law school, but that was certainly a gratifying moment where I realized in that first semester I'd certainly come a long way.

Maura:                 Right. Well and almost gives your professor the thought of, Oh wow, I shouldn't have underestimated this person.

Jim:                        Right. And he never did anything to make me think that he was thought little of me at all. I just remember my own questions thinking, wow Jim, that was not a good question. Just these funny experiences. I think a lot of law students, a lot of anyone who's gone to law school certainly has these humbling moments, especially in their first year. So, that was a nice... When I realized I won that award, when it came out the highest exam score to me, I was pretty surprised myself. So yeah, that's a fun accolade to have.

Maura:                 That's great. That's great. And I know you talked in preparation for this conversation about choosing to really forge your own career path separate from Mary and Joe, and so you described it as choosing the world of deals instead of the world of cases. Could you talk to me a little bit about that?

Jim:                        Right. So think little... I certainly didn't know this when I was at Holy Cross and you don't even really understand it when you go to law school so much, but you really, once you get into practice, especially at a big law firm, you realize the different things lawyers do.

Maura:                 Sure, right.

Jim:                        And specifically there's a big divide, I mean, there's a divide between public interest work and private practice, but even just even in private practice, there's a big divide between transactional work and litigation. Litigation's, I think with the impression of everyone has a lawyer doing, what Joe and Mary do, where you go to court, you're representing a client in the lawsuit. And transactional work is you're helping a client complete a business deal so there's no judge involved. Right? You're not representing a plaintiff or defendant, you're representing, often it can be a seller or buyer or lender or borrower and so it's a completely different animal in a way. You're trying to complete the business deal. It's a collaborative... Even though there are negotiations since things, it's more of a quote when it's done well.

                                I think a collaborative exercise with the other parties counsel trying to get this deal done and in law school, even though you can learn about transactional work, there are courses on corporations and merchandise acquisitions, corporate finance. It's always in the litigation context. When years after this deal ended, it fell apart and everyone's suing each other. And what do the contracts say? What are our indemnities? So it's just a whole different world. So, it's like I said, when I interned with Jones Day after my second year of law school, it was my first exposure to wow, there's this whole other side to the legal profession that I know very little about, certainly. I mean, my dad being a litigator and Joe and Mary being litigators, civil litigators. And so I remember being overwhelmed and at first reluctant to try it. But my first year at Jones Day, it's neat, they don't give you an offer into a practice group. They say they give you a year to essentially be a free agent and work across practice groups.

Maura:                 That's fantastic.

Jim:                        And it's a lot, it's been great. It's difficult in a sense. There's a learning curve with almost every project.

Maura:                 Sure.

Jim:                        Because it's with different people, it's a different practice. So with that you move from practice to practice, so you're always learning again. So, even after eight months it's only then you start to maybe get a second project with one group and you can take everything you learned from your first product, first deal or case. And so for me, it was a very discern slowly that I learned that at Holy Cross and it certainly was a slow discernment process for me because I always imagined that I wanted to be a litigator, I wanted to be a trial lawyer.

                                And I don't know just getting out into practice even though it hasn't been so long, you see very much the practice of law is way more than the theory you learn in school where you're talking about cases in the abstract and reading appellate opinions. There's a human side of law that I think, law schools have gotten better about it now. There are a lot of internship, externship opportunities and clinical practice things... Clinical courses you can take, but more or less it's theory and then you get out and practice and you see the human side of it. Which I think is really what most of lawyer... Joe and Mary can speak to this better than me, but lawyers really spend most of their time doing client management, interacting with opposing counsel. And I don't know, for me, I was lawyered into transactional work.

                                One thing about it is, the reality is, it's quicker. Deals are shorter than a case. A case, a lawsuit, I know Joe and Mary can say this can last for years. A deal, the ones I've worked on, I know their deals, I can get stressed out maybe for a while, but they usually take a few months at most from the ones I worked on. So it's fun because there's a start and an end and it's also really intense and you're trying to get it done. But I've just found it's really exciting because you're working, the end result is something exciting. A business is getting bought, a business is growing. And I think it's really fun to prospectively make your client aware of problems or where I think litigators jump in and crisis mode where like I said, a business deal has fallen apart or something, a conflict has arisen in a person's life or in the client's life if their corporation and you're there to really guide them through that disaster, which is incredible profession.

                                And I know there's so many people who do that well, but I thought it was really appealing to work on the prospective side where you look at a deal, you look at the transaction your client's trying to complete it and you say, well, here's some things you need to think about. Because I know we wouldn't like to think that this transaction would fall apart, but if it did, you have to be mindful that you have a lot of exposure here if we don't take this step. And I think that's a real skill to have the foresight to identify the issues that can be an issue. Trying to communicate those to your client without scaring them, without getting them overwhelmed with the hypothetical, which might not happen, but also forcing them to be realistic and to think beyond the moment where you sign this deal and you have to go forward with whatever you've agreed to buy, agreed to sell, or agree to invest in.

                                And now, so it's been fun. So like I said, I discerned slowly. So I think I'm about a year in, so I have to choose a practice group. So, that's coming in the next few weeks. So, it's not going to be a litigation group. It's most likely going to be... it's going to be a transactional group. So, that's a long winded answer, but I hope I described a little bit about my encounter with learning about the other side of law.

Maura:                 Well, and it seems like discernment has been something that you've really carried from Holy Cross because you didn't jump into a lot right away. And you did take a step and you taught for a few years. So talk to me a little bit about that decision to really take another step before jumping in.

Jim:                        Right. Well, I couldn't have told you I started... I graduated in 13. My last day of school at Holy Cross was... Graduation was probably around May 20th and then September 1st, I was the teacher. I think I got a haircut, bought a tie and all of a sudden I was Mr. Cavanagh, teaching a class of seventh and eighth graders. And it was quite a transition.

                                And I don't think I could have told you in January of 2013 that I would be... if you told me I was teaching the next year, I would have said really? I don't think that's going to happen. So, even though I did say discern slowly that certainly happened quickly, looking back at the grand scheme of my life and just to tell you how it happened. So, I always knew I wanted to go law school. I think even though in the last few years, I think my career is going to be very different than what I imagined it would be just from growing up in our family. And our dad was a litigator and he always had... I always loved talking to him about his job and different things about his cases and I thought it was very appealing and it was just very appealing to me.

                                So, I always wanted to go, but I just knew I wasn't ready. It was always, even as a senior in college, I thought, I want to do that, but I just knew I didn't want to go right away. And I remember, I had really had no idea what I wanted to do. I think I had applied to some Fulbright scholarship, a Fulbright scholarship with Tony Cashman had helped me apply and so I was waiting on that, but I didn't really know what else. And I remember studying for finals in December. December, 2012 the first semester of my senior year, and there was an email that got shot out from the career services office and it was for internships at a prep schools and it didn't apply to me. It was a applied to rising juniors, rising seniors where you could intern at a summer camp, I forget the... Some New England prep schools and I thought just, I went to an all boy Catholic school and Rhode Island and it was big.

                                It was about a thousand boys. Some of my brothers had gone to a prep school and I just knew that it's a very small community. They all had very good experiences and played sports. And I also just was familiar with the model where you know, the teachers, they teach in their small classroom size and then your teachers are also your coaches. And the teachers are really a part of the community, especially at those schools. And I don't know, just an image of me teaching and then coaching, like hockey. I liked, I didn't play hockey here, but I love hockey and I just thought, wow, wouldn't that be a lot of fun? But I kind of dismissed it thinking I couldn't do that. I've never thought of doing that. And then I was home, it was around Christmas and my sister and I, not Mary or our sister Carol, who's also a lawyer. She started to cross examine me about what I was going to do.

Maura:                 That's what the holidays are good for.

Jim:                        Right. Exactly. What are you going to do? You're a senior, the clocks ticking. Do you have a plan? And I don't know. Well I just didn't want to say, I didn't have anything. I said, well, I've thought about teaching. And she said, Oh wow. And she said, where? I was like, maybe a prep school, I don't know, just from that one thought. And she put me in touch with a guy who was an alum here. He's works at CM now, guy Mike Schell. And he's just a wonderful guy. And he was a student here and had done the same thing, went right to teaching in a prep school. And so I had the long break and he was a friend of my sisters. So I gave him a call and just talked to him about what I was interested in.

                                I said, I really haven't thought about this much, but it excites me. The idea of teaching. I think it'd be fun. And I know it would be challenging and everything. And he said no. And I think he identified with what I was feeling as a senior in college and he was my guy to applying to different prep schools around that might be open to hiring a kid right out of college. He wasn't an education major, no prior teaching experience. So I interviewed at some places, made it to the final rounds and nothing was happening. But then I got an email from him that his school where he taught was looking for a new religion teacher, at St Sebastian's. So I went and I interviewed and I met the headmaster Bill Burke, who's a wonderful guy and the assistant, who was a Holy Cross alum.

                                And I just spent a day at the school and right away fell in love with it and one of my good friends from college Luke Sullivan, went to St. Sebs and I knew he loved his high school and I immediately thought, wow, this is a place I could picture myself. And sure enough they thought they could picture me there too. So it was great. I had an offer and I had a job. Spring semester, senior year. So I started that and I know... so that's how I ended up there and that was just an incredible experience and I just loved every minute of being there and it was kind of funny. It was one of those things where a year, December, 2013 I was coaching the JV hockey team, I had taught a full day class, was at the rink and just having fun. I thought, this is funny. A year ago I pictured myself doing this and didn't think it... And really laughed at it. I'm actually here doing it. So, that was great.

Maura:                 It's sometimes hard to believe that work can also be fun.

Jim:                        Right?

Maura:                 Like I can get paid to do this.

Jim:                        And that was, I remember that too, right, being at hockey practice coaching a game. And I'm thinking, I guess I'm at work right now, which is pretty cool. And actually it's funny I mentioned to you, I did some work this morning and cool beans and a bunch of students I taught who were in seventh and eighth grade are actually now here as students. And I was hoping maybe I could scare one of them. Like, Hey, like I used to do or just see one of them. And so, yeah, it was a great experience.

Maura:                 Yeah, that's fantastic. I also read that you did an internship at the US attorney's office.

Jim:                        Yes.

Maura:                 Along your path of figuring out what you want to do. I'd love to hear a little bit about how that's informed your work.

Jim:                        Right? So it was after my first year of law school. After your first year of law school is interesting because it's really a year in the books. You're learning law and the abstract and like I mentioned this earlier, you really know very little about the practice of lot itself, but you've learned a lot of legal theory and about the substantive bodies of law. So, as a first year law student, they're not too many options to intern because no one's really willing to pay you to do anything. But it's a great opportunity to work for a government agency that might have unpaid internships and have a program where you can come in and they'll give you some assignments and you'll get to see a lot of action.

Maura:                 Right.

Jim:                        Because I mean US attorney's office is interesting experience because they're federal prosecutors, so they're in court all the time. So, I spent a lot of time that summer, just really, I mean, more so than the work I did, just sitting in court watching... I got to watch a full jury criminal jury trial. I got to watch sentencings, plea agreements and also did some research and stuff to help an attorney. I remember that was fun doing some research and an attorney was taking it with him to argue it for the judge. I hope it went well, but one thing, so I do something very different now, right? I'm in private practice, transactional work, but it's something to see the criminal justice system at work, is I think just something as a citizen, as a lawyer especially, is worth witnessing and knowing something about, because I mean so much, sadly, a lot of people... I think Mary spoke to it earlier when she said, we have an incredible legal system in the United States and so often, right?

                                We just take it for granted, especially if you're from here and having lived in a different part of the world with a different legal system. But a lot of people unfortunately, right, like one of the times they really realize that they are part of a society governed by laws is if they have an encounter with the criminal justice system. If they find themselves charged with something. And so just knowing how that works and kind of just, I think any, every lawyer has an obligation to know a little bit about it. And also seeing it... I also, you understand that it's, for the system to work well, it takes a good lawyers, both good judges, good prosecutors, good defendants and good law clerks who help the judge and do research for the judge. And I think just that summer broadened me to realize that this system has worked and it's working every day. There are a million cases before these judges, these judges are working hard, these lawyers are working hard.

                                And I think it really, if anything just as a first year law student just makes you more aware of how important the criminal justice system is, that the people in it do a good job, the people in it are committed and act ethically. And also too that, just as a lawyer, you should know something about this because you might, before you know it, now you're a lawyer, right? So someone years down the road, hopefully I think all the guys I met here, upstanding citizens, but if they found themselves in trouble. You might get a phone call, might be helpful to know a little bit something about it, but so it was a good experience.

Maura:                 That's fantastic. And how has the Holy Cross's mission influenced your life?

Jim:                        Right. The Holy Cross mission for me, like I said, discern slowly and I think if you show up on campus, you're 18 it's really your first time away from home. Even though home is only 45 minutes away in Rhode Island. And I think of, just in four years you've come a long way or you should. And I think certainly Holy Cross and I think Mary and Joe harped on this in their experiences that, you do mature quite a bit in college. Just, I mean, you're 18 when you arrive, you're 22 when you graduate. So I think, I do remember it just being here and I like to think that my awareness of being mission driven grew and the whole Jesuit philosophy to be, men and women for others. And the idea that you should always be mindful of the questions of who is God, who is God calling me to be, and who is God calling me to be for others. And I think just as I went through my time here, I became more and more aware of that and I took more advantage of the opportunities Holy Cross offered to discern what God is calling you to do.

                                I went on the spiritual exercises. Actually the winter of my senior year, it was right around the time this whole teaching decision happened. And I remember I'd actually just found out I didn't get my Fulbright and I really was out of... I didn't know what I was going to do. I knew I had this idea about teaching and I just remember going on the exercises and thinking, okay, this is the time for your discernment. And really the only thing I discerned was all you can do is just respond to whatever's happening in front of you to treat the people around you with love and try to do the next right thing. To try to give your full attention to the task in front of you because that's God's plan for you that day. The people and the circumstances, he places in front of you.

                                And I remember I read a book by a Jesuit, during my experience on that retreat and that was kind of... and my mom just gave it to me before I went and it was really, I think all for a purpose. And I remember so, so when I say, how's that affects how Holy Cross drives my mission. Now, it's interesting, right? Because again, this has been a big transition year for me. I just graduated from law school, I moved back to the East coast and I've been working across practice groups and with that it's been a little chaotic. At times you feel overwhelmed and it always comes back to, what does God want me to do in this circumstance with these people I'm dealing with? And I think a lot of it just stems from the academic experience here that you should do your work well. Right.

                                That we all have gifts. That part of being men, women for others is giving the best of yourself to task. So even if it's the most monotonous, tedious task on this deal that you're asked to do as a junior associate, you're called to do that to the best of your ability. And so right now I'd say it drives my mission because you want to serve others. But it also just made me really aware of the way you serve others is by serving who's in front of you. And I've found that just to keep your sanity in a chaotic year, practicing law and to find God in it, is you really have to stay in the moment and do your best with what you have in front of you.

Maura:                 Well and that probably ties in, you know my next question of this, is about your personal mission and I'm sure it's tied into that. So I guess, how have you taken that and really created your own mission?

Jim:                        Right. So right now, I think my mission is really just to become confident in what you're doing. And I remember showing up at Holy Cross and being a history major and really realizing I don't write well. And so much, I mean, this is, I think just an example of Holy Cross and how the professors were great, but they were honest and blunt and said, your writing's weak. You need to get better. And I remember it took so long to get better. It took draft after draft. And I remember taking different courses and visiting professors at office hours who were always willing to help. But I remember getting over the hump, and I'm not going to say I'm a great writer, but I'm going to say that I'm certainly a better writer than I was when I started here.

Mary:                    I guess your Civil Procedure professor thought you were pretty good.

Jim:                        A good part of it was multiple choice.

                                And I think, so right now, what drives me is getting better and gaining in competencies because I've learned that law is extremely complicated and it's a bit daunting when you realize there's so much I don't know. But the thing is you can just keep at it and as you grow in competencies, it gives you more opportunities to serve others. Right. Because I don't know where I'll end up in my career. I mean, Joe and Mary, they graduated from law school a few years before me, so I'm not exactly sure where everything's going. But that's certainly driving me right now. How can I be, utilize my gifts, develop them the most I can. So I can serve others the way God calls me to.

Maura:                 That's wonderful.

                                And think back to when you were a student and you've talked about it a little bit, you don't have to think back as far. What stands out to you about your experience on campus and how has it really prepared you for some of the challenges that you've faced?

Jim:                        Right. I mentioned it in my previous answer, but certainly I found as a history major, that you certainly had the opportunity to become a better student. You had the opportunity to really develop your critical thinking because of professors who cared, professors who pushed you and professors who are really passionate about what they taught. I can think of so many examples. I think of my first class I took with Stephanie Yuhl, it was my Montserrat class, I believe they still have the Montserrat program and I wasn't just a history major because Carol, I mean, because of Mary and Joe were, but I mean certainly that helped and I thought I would be interested, but I remember taking this class on World War II and Vietnam and thinking it would just be a military history class, but with professor Yuhl it was very different. It was really about the memory of those wars and how we as a society now choose to memorialize them and what narratives get told and whose narrative get told and who are the stakeholders.

                                And you realize that there just so many layers that complicate these issues. And it just really opened my eyes to what a complex world we have and the need to be aware of that and the need to be a voice in the conversation. So with that, it helps if you can analyze, it helps if you can critically think and it helps if you can write well. And so I think to my experience at Holy Cross, it was certainly one where I grew quite a bit and I remember after that experience in class thinking, wow, I think I want to be a history major and I chose to be a history major. And then I just taking other courses with Gwen Miller, with Father K and having these moments where you're looking at correspondence from members of Congress, looking at the writings of the Jesuits in their encounter with native Americans hundreds of years ago.

                                And you really get into the primary sources. And what was the experience of this person? What are they saying about it? And I just remember it was a neat experience to have your interest inflamed in so many... In an area of study. And I think that helps for anyone who's a student here and you go to law school because of lot of... Even if you took some time off... like I didn't take time or you did something different before going to law school, you have the muscle memory of what it takes to be a serious student, to be a critical thinker, to analyze a document, to analyze someone's writings and to write well. And I think, so certainly when I think back, especially after going to law school, I think those experiences at Holy Cross certainly prepared me.

Maura:                 Right. And even just the practice of learning someone else's perspective through that analysis must be so valuable.

Jim:                        Oh certainly. I'm not a litigator, but I mean, so much of the study of law is right? There are two sides of the case and there's a different way and you read two different briefs that are written about the same... Based off the same facts. They can try to tell such a different story. I think Joe and Mary can probably speak to that with more detail and with more experience than I can. So always being mindful of what is the other narrative? What narrative am I overlooking? And you see that too, just applying it and you can always apply that in whatever you're doing, in transactional work negotiations. What does the other side want out of this deal? Why would they care about this?

                                And when you do that and you have a sense of where someone else is coming from, it just makes for more beneficial dialogue. And then in a pragmatic sense, it's way better for your clients, way more efficient, if the lawyers aren't talking past each other. If you're really listening and appreciating and understanding that one issue that you might be raising is important to them and you might, based on your client's position, it doesn't really matter to you, it matters to them. So taking the time to dialogue with them and then it just gives you more credit going forward. When you have something you want to talk about. So, yeah, certainly very valuable.

Maura:                 Fantastic. And so this you've probably touched on also, about how your Holy Cross education influence the way that you practice law.

Jim:                        Right. I guess, one thing is to just be willing to put in the work to... It's tough, especially in law because you bill per hour and you're very busy and so it's important to learn efficiency, but it's also important to do your work well. Because that's serving your client... To really... You get a long complicated contract, really sitting down and analyzing it and digging in, getting into the weeds on things. I mean, it takes some judgment. You don't want to spin your tires too much on things. And that comes, I think with time, knowing what issues to look for, what things aren't important. But really I think Holy Cross really taught me from the get go.

                                As I started the path that led me to law school and I knew the practice of law, that you really just need a great attention to detail. That you really have to take pride in your work and do it well. Because it certainly becomes a habit and I can see, actually it's interesting, I feel like law school in a way is a moment, it's the culmination of you putting into practice all the skills you've learned as a student. Because in law school, especially the first year, you only have one exam, per class, per semester. There was no study guide or anything. So it was really on you to be organized, to make sure that you're listening, to make sure that you've developed critical thinking skills to be identify what's important in your course. And then, you put that, then you write an exam and hopefully you had the right skills.

                                And then law school prepares you for law because it's really that practice. It's really just the same practice that I started here at Holy Cross of having attention to detail. Putting in the work to analyze, to read, to think and if you've been doing that for a long time, you know that's how you have to do it. You have to put in the work, but also too, you're just better at it. So certainly, I think, that's how Holy Cross is carried into my practice of law. But you still got to do it. You still got to break a sweat always. But I learned that a long time ago, I think.

Maura:                 Yeah. Yeah. Oh good. What has been the most satisfying or rewarding moment for you in your work so far?

Jim:                        That's a good question. A recent experience actually and I think it's great because it touches on something that I learned here at Holy Cross and I credit Holy Cross are helping me have this experience. Like I said, I'm not going to be a litigator, but for about six months this year I did quite a bit of litigation work. And I remember on the first day I got to my office, there was this big stack of briefings on my desk and I had an email that I was being put on part of this case team in this massive lawsuit that had been going on for a long time. And my job was to help prepare for depositions. And depositions, right, are pretty much just having a witness testify outside of court where a lawyer, it's not in court, but lawyers go and one lawyer questions a witness and the other lawyer defends the witness and it helps you build a record of the case and just different facts and going forward.

                                And so I had prepared for the... Helped partners in my law firm and other associates prepare for these depositions. And a lot of that is grunt work. There's so many doc... These two major institutions are suing each other. So they're just a lot of documents. So you spend a lot of time reading documents, it's a lot of grunt work and you have to pull ones you think are relevant, things that will come up in this deposition. And I remember being just overwhelmed by the case when I first got there because it was very complicated matter and we were thinking, how will I ever understand this much less be ready to look at hundreds, maybe thousands of documents and be able to identify ones which could be problematic or worth asking a witness about. And I remember in June I went to New York with the partner in the deposition for this case.

                                And I remember he had asked me for the months leading up to it, just different questions about different documents that had come up in this case. And I would read them, analyze them and shoot them off in email and everything and I remember we were preparing for the deposition and we finally started the deposition and it was the first one I actually attended and it was just a neat moment for me because when I realized I was part of a team. I was part of this litigation team and I was there on the record at the deposition on behalf of a client and also too, I remembered this case was so complicated but the deposition lasted eight hours and this was a very important witness and I realized I knew everything about the case or there was a lot I still didn't know, but I knew so much that I was with it for the seven, eight hours we were there.

                                Every question, I knew why it mattered, I knew why we were asking it. And also it was rewarding... I helped prepare the outline, seeing documents that I was asked to look at a few weeks ago and I didn't even really, just because the partner is busy, I hadn't received much feedback, some questions, points I had raised come up in the questions. So it was a rewarding moment because I realized, wow, I think what I learned at Holy Cross and I talked about the excitement of being a history major and getting lost in the stacks at Dinand and you just learned the importance of being a learner and learning that if you think, and even though things are difficult, if you buckle down and read and try to learn, you will learn. And then when you do learn and you do put in the work that you can contribute and you can serve.

                                And so I felt, even though I don't want to be a litigator, that was a great moment for me. So, I'd say, just like I said, you got to break a sweat. Probably Holy Cross taught you that. I think I did that for six months, leading up to that deposition. I felt like a rewarding moment for me.

Maura:                 Yeah. Well, given what you know now, what advice do you have for someone who's interested in pursuing law?

Jim:                        Right. This is certainly, I think, I know you asked Joe and Mary this question, but certainly for me, being right out of law school, I think it's certain... I had to consider, I mean, I had the discern law school in more recent time than they did and I'd say, one I've been really blown away by just, like I said, especially going to my firm, all the different opportunities that are for lawyers. So, if you're a science person, there are opportunities for in law in life and health sciences, in intellectual property if you're interested. If you're, I mean, people were passionate about civil rights and passionate and about equality injustice. There are obviously major opportunities especially in public interest in government.

                                And so one, I'd say, don't think you're pigeonholing yourself by going to law school because there are a lot of different ways you can go. But also too, it is an incredible investment of time, energy, and also money too. So, law school can be very expensive. I think it's very much worth it if you're going to be a serious student there and take the time to learn. And I think of how I grew in three years of law school. And so, I'd say certainly think about it, pray about it, discern it, but also too know, I'd say talk to as many lawyers as you can because there's so many different experiences and it's actually funny for me, because I realized when I showed up at law school, even though I had three siblings who were lawyers and a father whose lawyer, I knew so little about what law school would be like, but going through it and I thought that was really funny for a person who had always wanted to go, but I realized I was really happy that I went.

                                So that was my experience, but certainly I'd say take the time before you invest, but also know I'm an optimist and I'm a promoter of it, thinking there's a lot you can do with it.

Maura:                 Fantastic. Fantastic.

                                Well now to wrap things up, I have a series of speed round questions. Quick questions, quick answers. And for this I'll ask the question and then go around and hear everyone's answer. So are you ready to tackle it? Yeah. Okay.

                                What was your favorite dorm?

Joe:                        Lehy

Maura:                 Joe. Yep. Mary?

Mary:                    Mulledy

Jim:                        Hanselman.

Maura:                 Fantastic. Favorite meal on campus or favorite Cool Beans order, Joe?

Joe:                        Omelets, made to order with waffles at Kimball on weekend mornings only.

Maura:                 Mary?

Mary:                    Pizza from the pizza kitchen.

Maura:                 Fantastic. And Jim?

Jim:                        Chicken parm night, definitely.

Maura:                 Very nice. Very nice. Favorite class? Joe?

Joe:                        Contemporary Christian Morality with Father Linnane.

Maura:                 Mary?

Mary:                    Law and Human Rights in China with professor Karen Turner.

Maura:                 Fantastic. Jim?

Jim:                        Understanding Mary with Father Gavin.

Maura:                 Wonderful. Favorite professor, Joe?

Joe:                        Father Linnane. Father Kuzniewski.

Maura:                 Mary?

Mary:                    I guess. Professor Turner.

Maura:                 Great. Jim?

Jim:                        Professor Yuhl, she was great.

Maura:                 Favorite memory? Joe?

Joe:                        Winning the Mac Hockey Championship my senior year.

Maura:                 Not running down to Kimball and back?

Joe:                        No, I blocked that one out.

Maura:                 Great. Mary?

Mary:                    The last few nights before graduation at the heart center.

Maura:                 Jim?

Jim:                        I will say, senior year going to the Cape with my friends, with all my friends I had gotten to know over the last four years. It was incredible.

Maura:                 Great. And last question, best part about being a Holy Cross alum, Joe?

Joe:                        The pride you take in the whole spirit of the school and being able to say that you're a part of that.

Maura:                 Mary?

Mary:                    I think just knowing you are part of such an excellent tradition and excellent institution. Something that you always have with you.

Maura:                 Jim?

Jim:                        In a similar way, remembering where you came from and remembering the mission you were taught here and how even though you can stray from it and it might not always feel present to you that I think just being here for four years, just being... I appreciate being ingrained with, we're supposed to be men and women for others.

Maura:                 Fantastic. Wonderful and that's a wrap. Thank you.

                                That's our show. I hope you enjoyed hearing about just one of the many ways that Holy Cross alumni have been inspired by the mission to be men and women for and with others.

A special thanks to today's guests and everyone at Holy Cross who has contributed to making this podcast a reality.

If you or someone you know would like to be featured on this podcast, please send us an email at [email protected]. If you like what you hear, then please leave us a review.

This podcast is brought to you by the office of alumni relations at the college of the Holy Cross. You can subscribe for future episodes wherever you find your podcasts.

I'm your host, Maura Sweeney, and this is Mission-Driven. In the words of Saint Ignatius of Loyola, "now go forth and set the world on fire."

---

Theme music composed by Scott Holmes, courtesy of freemusicarchive.org.

In part two of a three-part series, Maura Sweeney '07 interviews Joe Cavanagh '99 about how his Holy Cross experience influences the way he practices law.

Recorded September 11, 2019

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Transcript

Joe:                        The idea of doing your best, your excellence for God, for others, for clients in what you do no matter what you're doing, wherever you are, personal sphere, professional sphere, other places and I take that directly from Holy Cross. Yeah.

Maura:                 Welcome to Mission-Driven, where we speak with alumni who are leveraging their Holy Cross education to make a meaningful difference in the world around them. I'm your host Maura Sweeney from the class of 2007, Director of Alumni Career Development at Holy Cross. I'm delighted to welcome you to today's show.

                                In part two of the three part series, we speak with Joe Cavanagh. Joe graduated from Holy Cross in 1999 and Cornell Law School in 2003. Joe joined his father and sister at Bliss & Cavanagh and became partner in 2013. Joe speaks about the value of his time on campus and its impact on the way that he practices law. There are a few fun stories from his time on the Hill, too.

Mary:                    So Joe, I'm excited to talk to you next, class of ‘99, History major. You went to Cornell Law School, graduated in 2003 are also a partner at Bliss & Cavanagh in Providence, Rhode Island. You work in general litigation with a focus on business and complex commercial employment, personal injury and real estate litigation. You also advise corporate and non-profit clients in the areas of pre-litigation strategy, employment, contracting, negotiation and compliance.

                                You also do pro bono work at the TGC Memorial Fund as well as the Board of Trustees at the Ocean Tides School. And as we've talked about, you also received Super Lawyer of the year in 2019 for Litigation within Real Estate and Best Lawyers in America in 2017. Top Litigation Attorney from Super Lawyers from 2013 to 2018, and Rising Star back in 2012 and that was a positive premonition because it proved true over the years. But I also noticed that you received a Martindale Hubbell Peer Rating for strong ethical standards, which really stood out to be, can you talk to me a little bit about that.

Joe:                        Interesting that you mentioned that Maura I'm not sure I had focused on that aspect of my profile. The Martindale Hubbell Peer Rating. I've seen it before in looking up other lawyers in the directory, but didn't know that I had necessarily garnered an ethical rating there. So it was very nice to hear.

Maura:                 Oh, well congratulations!

Joe:                        Thank you.

Maura:                 Yeah.

Joe:                        So yeah, as Mary said, we have a collegial bar in Rhode Island. You have quite a bit of contact with your colleagues and other firms in the courthouse or by phone and at depositions and there's an understanding that we're part of a smaller community where people don't necessarily take cheap shots or do things with the mode or the thought that they won't see this practitioner again in their practice, which might happen in bigger cities. So in a way it replicates a smaller college community like at Holy Cross, and I think it makes for a better practice both within our firm and around the state and for the whole system, the court system, the clients that are served by it.

                                So, within that peer set, I would be thought of as having high ethical standards it's nice to hear and I would like to think that's partly due to my time at Holy Cross and the way that, my experiences I had here on campus in a similar type setting. I mean, from having been here, it is a small community, things that happen are known and word gets out quickly. Sometimes you can't believe how quickly, like Kimball before breakfast the next morning, so that element of sort of honesty and accountability within a community is one that you kind of learn and sometimes make mistakes in that regard in a small college setting like this.

                                And then to have those experiences and realize that we're all in this together and that things you say or do will have repercussions, to move that into your professional life now and I would like to think a peer voted award like that is a reflection of a recognition of that.

Maura:                 That's fantastic. Right. And it's similar to what Mary and I talked about, just the incredible importance of being recognized by peers and just how significant that is. That's wonderful.

Maura:                 Well, and I'd love to hear a bit more about your professional journey since you graduated from Holy Cross because I know I only captured some of the bookends.

Joe:                        Sure. So after law school I went to a firm in Boston, a large firm in many cities, in international practice to Mintz Levin it was a great place to begin my career. I met many wonderful people there and there was a standard of excellence that I was exposed to and sort of reared in that I draw on every day my experiences from being in that setting. There were actually some Holy Cross alumni that were at the firm that I was thinking about driving up here today and had an event like this causes you to reflect in ways that you don't usually busy business of life.

                                But when I arrived at Mintz Levin, quickly, the Holy Cross alumni network was at work sort of informally. I think they probably had read resumes of people are arriving, new associates and went out of their way to reach out to me and Scott Ford was class of ‘89 here I think at Holy Cross. Matt Hurley was ‘88 and I'm still in touch with those lawyers, I believe they're both still partners at Mintz Levin and things like on a Friday afternoon we'd go... If Holy Cross was playing in the NCAA tournament, they ring me up, we're going out, we're going to get some lunch and we watched the game and things like that. So it was the Holy Cross community sort of taking form in the professional setting.

Maura:                 Well, I mean it's what everyone says that no matter how, if you wanted to escape Holy Cross, you can't really, because you wear anything purple or people find out that you have a connection and whether they went to Holy Cross or their neighbor or their cousin or their friend, we have a way of finding each other, which I think is wonderful. In a new setting it helps you feel a lot more welcome. So on a Holy Cross note, how has Holy Cross's mission influenced your life?

Joe:                        So, I had the question in mind as I was reading ahead of time here, and I was just thinking back to the spiritual exercises. I went on the spiritual exercises actually not as a Holy Cross student, it was the fall after I graduated. They made an exception, let me come back and do that.

Maura:                 Oh wonderful.

Joe:                        With sports on campus that it had never worked out and so I was still getting the full experience here even six, eight months after I graduated. And, again I mentioned the community element of it, but the idea that you would incorporate your spirituality and your striving for excellence for God and others into your work life was something that I every day try to incorporate into what I do.

                                I think of the Saint Ignatius prayer, I still pray it multiple times a day. And I remember getting a little green prayer card at that retreat from... I think it was from Father Ford or Father LeBran who was still conducting those at the time and reading it and then quickly committing it to memory. I don't know where the card is now I might still have it but, just trying to plug into the experience of that retreat and the idea of doing your best, your excellence for God, for others, for clients in what you do no matter what you're doing, wherever you are, personal sphere, professional sphere, other places and I've take that directly from Holy Cross. Yeah.

Maura:                 Well and it sounds like you don't even need the little card anymore since you have it committed to memory.

Joe:                        No. I have. Said it enough times and it sticks.

Maura:                 Yeah. Yeah.

Jim:                        Just like an argument in court, right?

Maura:                 Well, you've touched upon this already about the Holy Cross mission and how you've internalized it. And so I'm curious to know what mission drives you and how you've really formed your own mission?

Joe:                        Well, I mean, I like to think the two mold together. It's very short concise terms, to get to heaven and bring others with me or to help others get there as well, I mean at its basic element that's what I consider my life mission to be and so that in the practice of law, I mean from day to day and hour by hour, the way that that often manifests itself is to make sure in that moment whether it's a 0.1 time block, a 10th of an hour time block for a client or more than that or preparing for hearings or depositions to just make sure that I'm doing things up to a standard that that is reflective of trying to bring my best and do my best with my talents and ability because that's in that moment what's going to further that mission.

                                That's what God wants me to do for those six minutes or 12 minutes or whatever and you just... and then you're in the car headed off to youth sports events or to family events and just sort of recalibrating that mindset every minute of the day. And then obviously in the professional sphere, it means when you're advising people taking into consideration much more than just their particular narrow legal issue-

Maura:                 Right.

Joe:                        ... and we have in our practice in Providence, the nice flexibility in that, in addition to representing some large corporate companies and major corporations in sort of big complex litigation, we're also small enough and we're in a small enough legal market that neighbors with personal matters can call and we can actually take those matters on and help them, or people with a small business disputes that probably wouldn't even get in the door at a larger firm and it's there that you can be more of a holistic adviser and looking at helping this person along whatever path that they're taking and it may even spill over beyond the law. You're thinking about the mission to help ultimately, how can I help this person get to heaven? And so that's my mission.

Maura:                 It's an important one. Yeah.

Maura:                 Well, and I'll ask you to think back to when you were a student at Holy Cross and what stands out most from your experience and how it's really prepared you for these moments of helping people with their challenges and maybe helping with some of your own challenges.

Joe:                        I'd say first and foremost like Mary said, because we were both History majors at about the same time. So I think our experiences were probably very similar. The workload... I think we did a five course load at Holy Cross when we were here in the mid ‘90s and that seemed to be talking to friends at other schools, one more core substantive academic course than others would take. So there was always a lot of work and in the history department there was always a lot of reading and writing all the time and deadlines, constantly deadlines. Write papers tomorrow, 10 page paper due Friday, 12 pages due Tuesday, I mean really our litigation practice at Providence is not much different at all, so you kind of hone those skills. But also the sort of the demands of some of the professors.

                                I remember Father Kuzniewski, taking his History classes and we had a trip that we were taking out to Colorado Springs, the hockey team was to play Air Force Academy, that was in October of my senior year and we were going to fly out of Logan on a Thursday morning for the weekend games and I think we were leaving the Hart Center at 5:00 AM and we had a History test scheduled for that day so I went to see Father K a week or so before and I said, here's my conflict so I can’t take the test. Well let me know if I can take it when I get back or make another arrangement, and he said, "Well, what time does the bus leave the Hart Center?" I said, "5:00 AM we're going to be packed up and go." He said, "Okay, well this will work well."

                                He said, Ciampi’s is on the way to the Hart Center so why don't you stop by. Ring the bell at Ciampi at 3:00 AM and you can take your test from 3:00 AM to 4:30 AM that will give plenty of time to get up there and get on the bus." And that's what I did. I showed up at the Ciampi Hall at 3:00 AM and Father K set me up with a little space, I think he offered me some coffee and-

Maura:                 It's the least he could do.

Joe:                        ... I took my History test. In just the little mini capsule that was Holy Cross and then I was on the bus and we were off and we had a great weekend and work due on Monday morning when we flew back.

Maura:                 And then when others were complaining about that 5:00 AM meeting, you said, "I've been up for hours, so I don't want to hear it."

Joe:                        That's right.

Joe:                        I wasn't worried about missing the bus.

Maura:                 That is the priceless story. That is absolutely priceless. And do you remember, did you do okay at 3:00 AM?

Joe:                        I did. I remember I got an A on the test.

Maura:                 Well, see that's even more impressive, right?

Joe:                        Yeah.

Maura:                 Right.

Joe:                        Yeah. I didn't get A's on every test but I did get an A on that one. I remember too Coach Pearl, who was the hockey coach at the time, he had a freshman study hall that he had posted on the board up there for the players to go to and I for some reason thought or assumed it was optional, like he would make the time available if you felt you were needing extra study time and otherwise, I was thinking, you just go to the library or maybe you didn't have anything to do that day and so you wouldn't go. So I saw there was a note on the board the day after I had blown off or missed the study hall, wasn't a blow up to me. It said, "Cavanagh, see me." And I did and he said, "What was the story last night? Where were you?" I said, "Well, I thought it was optional coach." He said, "Optional? No, no, no, that wasn't optional."

                                So he said, "Why don't you come meet me up here tomorrow morning at 7:00." And I said, "Okay, I'll be here." And he said, "And wear your workout clothes too." And so I came up to the front of Hart Center I remember this, I think it was a Friday morning and he was there and in a lawn chair outside with the paper in his hand and a stopwatch.

                                And he said, "Okay, Cav, down to the front steps of Kimball and back in less than five minutes or you do it again, go." And I shot down the hill and you wouldn't believe how quickly you can get from the front steps of Hart Center to Kimball when you're going on adrenaline and moving. But the minute you turn around and start going back the other direction, I was like, "Yeah, I'm still sore. I think I blocked it out, the whole experience." But it was demands like that are rearing you and preparing you for bigger things and similar obligations later in life so I had a great experience here playing hockey for Coach Pearl and definitely in reflection appreciate things like that from the community from the kind of the leaders or the instructors here.

Maura:                 Yeah, they make sure you don't forget.

Maura:                 How has your Holy Cross education influenced the way that you practice law?

Joe:                        Well, it's like I was saying earlier, drawing on your academic experiences, your ability to manage time, you're looking at the faith mission of the college and the and the faith foundation that it provides, and then trying to incorporate that into your conversations and your thinking with your clients every day.

Maura:                 Yeah. Yeah. And what has been the most satisfying or rewarding moment in your work?

Joe:                        Well, I mean winning an appeal before the Rhode Island Supreme Court, winning summary judgment on big cases for some clients, those things jump out as kind of the most beneficial legal results. Winning a trial and having it affirmed on appeal in cases. But I think actually the matters that I've seen that have taken twists and turns and sort of winding roads through our superior court with multiple parties over years sometimes and then getting to the end of that road and having a satisfied client that knows that you stuck by them through the whole process and through ups and downs.

                                I've had a couple of those recently and it becomes at times... I don't want to say a war of attrition, but that's it. I mean someone comes into your office and they have something there may be emotionally really stirred up about something that just happened and they want to be in the court the next day and sue everybody and then one of the first conversations you have to have is like, "Listen, this doesn't happen. This is emotion sort of the raw feeling that you're going on right now, by the time we're moving forward in this case it'll probably subside quite a bit and it's going to be down to your legal rights and making sure that you want to keep pursuing those and protect your interests."

                                And then over time, for the clients to see that you are committed to that what I'd call sort of a higher pursuit and them sticking by you and you sticking by them to get to the end of that road where the emotion and the initial sting is sort of well past, those are the most satisfying moments for me.

Maura:                 That's fantastic. Yeah. And I'm sure it's not easy too. I'm sure there are a lot of challenges along the way too and so not easy to stick by. So that's great.

Maura:                 And then my last question for you is what advice would you have for someone who's interested in practicing law?

Joe:                        Well, let's see, I would... like Mary had said, if someone's interested in going to law school, you'd really want to check the motivation and make sure that it's not just a logical next step that they hadn't thought too much about. But I would say that they'd want to go ahead and pursue it, but then keep an eye on how the technology of today is kind of changing the practice of law. I mean, so much is done just at your desk, at your computer on email or phone and see for us we can still comment that that's different and that's not how we began our practices and we can kind of feel the toll of that when you don't have as many face to face interactions with people and you think, "Boy, it's been a while since I've seen this person and why is that because I used to see them all the time."

                                And it's just the change in nature of things so I would think it'd be difficult if you've never practiced law at all where that wasn't the case, where hearings and conferences are routinely done now just by phone and video link and so I think I would tell them to spend time beginning in law school making sure that they spend time with their classmates and have real human interaction there and that they try to do the same with their clients.

Maura:                 Well, and I think that speaks so much to what you both talked about of really finding the human element in your clients and really treating them like the person who they are and how that can get so easily lost with technology, and when things are virtual it's easier to create that distance and it sounds how important it is to really force yourself to make the time for real interactions.

Joe:                        Absolutely. Yeah.

Maura:                 Right. Right.

Joe:                        And with other lawyers too and with judges and clerks and all the people that you come in contact with in a legal practice.

Maura:                 Right, right. Thank you. Thank you very much.

Joe:                        Thank you.

Maura:                 That's our show. I hope you enjoyed hearing about just one of the many ways that Holy Cross alumni have been inspired by the mission to be men and women for and with others.

A special thanks to today's guests and everyone at Holy Cross who has contributed to making this podcast a reality.

If you or someone you know would like to be featured on this podcast, please send us an email at [email protected]. If you like what you hear, then please leave us a review.

This podcast is brought to you by the Office of Alumni Relations at the College of the Holy Cross. You can subscribe for future episodes wherever you find your podcasts.

I'm your host, Maura Sweeney, and this is Mission-Driven. In the words of Saint Ignatius of Loyola, "now go forth and set the world on fire."

---

Theme music composed by Scott Holmes, courtesy of freemusicarchive.org.

In part one of a three-part series, Maura Sweeney '07 interviews Mary Cavanagh Dunn '96 about growing up in a family of 9 children, and how her Holy Cross experience influences the way she practices law.

Recorded September 11, 2019

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Transcript

Mary:                    By working hard, by being efficient, by really representing your client's interest the way they're meant to be represented. That kind of integrity and that kind of meaningfulness you bring to your work, it something that has always stays with me as I work through the challenges I have now and I think that started at Holy Cross.

Maura:                 Welcome to Mission-Driven, where we speak with alumni who are leveraging their Holy Cross education to make a meaningful difference in the world around them. I'm your host, Maura Sweeney, from the class of 2007, director of alumni career development at Holy Cross. I'm delighted to welcome you to today's show.

Maura:                 We are offering something special this week, a three for one special. I had the pleasure of sitting down with three siblings who are all Holy Cross graduates and all practicing lawyers. Mary Cavanagh Dunn from the class of 1996, Joe Cavanagh from the class of 1999, and Jim Cavanagh from the class of 2013. In this three part episode, I speak with each of them to understand how their time at Holy Cross has influenced the way that they practice law. In this first episode I speak with Mary. Mary Cavanagh Dunn graduated from Holy Cross in 1996 and Suffolk University Law School in 2002. The oldest of nine children, Mary decided to join her father's Rhode Island law firm, Bliss and Cavanagh, where she made partner in 2013. She speaks about the decision to follow in her father's footsteps and how her education at Holy Cross has inspired and formed her work.

Maura:                 I'm very excited to have you here. You're three siblings, all Holy Cross grads, all history majors. You went to law school after Holy Cross and are practicing lawyers, and my guess is that's probably where a lot of the similarities end.

Mary:                    That's probably true.

Maura:                 I know. I'm similarly, I'm from a large family. I read that you're from a family of nine kids and I know that from us, we're one of five, which felt big. It doesn't feel big anymore. But we all are very, we have some similarities, we were all raised from the same home, but we're all very different people. And so I imagine the same is true from all of you.

Maura:                 So what I'm really excited about today is to hear how you each had your own Holy Cross experience. How you took the way that you were raised, took your Holy Cross experience, put your own stamp on it, and yet have decided to pursue a similar profession and to hear about that story, because I think that's really, really cool. So before I jump in and ask about each of your backgrounds, I'd love to just know a little bit about growing up with such a big family. I don't know who wants to take that one or give us a bit of an idea of where you're from and about your family.

Jim:                        Well, as always, I defer to the oldest, well the older, excuse me. Number eight of nine.

Mary:                    We primarily have lived in Warwick, Rhode Island most of our lives, I mean, most of us were involved at some level in sports. The boys in hockey, I played volleyball here, but I played tennis. And we went to, the older group of us went to public school and then Jim went to a Catholic school. So there's some differences there. But we all ended up here at the Catholic College. So, and I think, yeah, growing up, there were some families with four or five kids, but we were sort of atypical in that there are nine of us. My mom drove around a big blue van, carrying us from practice to practice and things like that, but we had a pretty close knit family.

Mary:                    We come from a very large family. My father was one of nine and most of his siblings have very large families and actually most of them live in Rhode Island. So not just us, there was a good amount of cousins. And so I think we all had a real sense of family. And to tell you the truth, it wasn't until I got to Holy Cross that I actually met all these other people who came from these big families. Because I will say growing up it was more unique that we were from a large family, but Holy Cross, that was one of the things I felt a real, it was kind of a surprise to me. But it was one of the things when I was starting out here feeling a little unsure it ... I played volleyball, and a lot of the, I should say women, not girls, that I played with were the youngest of big families. It was unique for me to be the oldest, but it was a real connection and I have always found that with a lot of my Holy Cross friends that that kind of large family aspect to it was something that was really unique to here, in our lifetime, I would say. I don't know if Joe and Jim would agree or disagree, but.

Joe:                        I had the same experience. I remember the first day at our really on campus at Lehy. Lehy two. One of the guys who lived in the room, just one or two down. I was talking to him in the hallway and just making introductions and I said, "I'm the second oldest of nine." And he said, "Oh, so am I. Isn't that great?"

Joe:                        Okay. Not in Kansas anymore when something like that.

Mary:                    You're going to have to come up with something else to set you apart, now.

Joe:                        Right. But that was a really beneficial part of being at Holy Cross. I thought that you could find people that you shared similar background and experience with. So you had a common bond in a way, and the faith bond, too. But yet within that framework, as you pointed out, there are so many differences and it's sort of like you have certain basics that allow you to be comfortable, stable to kind of get past some of the maybe more difficult transitional elements I would think of being on a college campus for the first time, and dive right in and get into the intellectual pursuits, and your activities, and meeting people. And so that part of being from a big family and being at Holy Cross I think was really, really helpful. Yeah.

Maura:                 That's great.

Jim:                        I know they both said they met, had classmates with large families who were at the older end, but their youngest siblings must have been older than me, because I felt like I still was unique. Maybe it was just my experience. No, I could think like Martin McNamara, one of my good friends, he was from a family of six, so. But I felt like nine was still pretty good, still the winning number.

Jim:                        But something that was unique for me, I think, just given the age range in our family. I think, I remember, I think one unique thing about me was that I had so many nieces and nephews showing up on campus. And I remember actually it was a few times Joe visited me on homecoming would bring his boys, and everyone would say, "Are these are your cousins? Or are these your brothers?"

Jim:                        I'm like, "Actually no, these are my nephews. That's my brother, there." And that was fun. And also, too, just to harken back to the first question about growing up in a big family, I've loved it. And being at the younger end, you certainly get to learn by the actions of your older siblings and see what works, see what didn't.

Jim:                        And but also too, it's been fun, because I was so, I was right at the point where I remember all of them going off to school. I remember Mary, I think, she was, I was really young when she went off to college, but I have a memory of it coming to Holy Cross and dropping her off. But as they've all had kids, I feel like I've gotten to know the young versions of my siblings, which is a lot of fun. I mean, my nieces and nephews are their own people, but they certainly have characteristics of their parents, so it's good.

Jim:                        And I'm roughly the same distance in age with my oldest siblings and the older end of Joe and Mary's kids, so that's been a lot of fun.

Joe:                        Or so you've heard, but maybe don't leap to too many conclusions.

Jim:                        That's right. That's right.

Maura:                 Well, I can say I'm also, I'm number four of five, so I can appreciate being on the younger side and getting to see everything that goes on and yet also feeling like, "Okay, they did it that way. I'm going to pave my own path over here," being just really fun.

Jim:                        Yeah.

Maura:                 Yeah. Well, so I am really excited to jump in and ask each of you some questions, now that we have a sense of where you're coming from. I've never interviewed a group of siblings before, so if it's okay with you, we'll go one at a time so we can learn about each of you. And then I've got some speed round questions that we can tackle as a group at the end. Does that work?

Joe:                        That's great.

Maura:                 Yes? Okay, great. So Mary, you've agreed to hold the oldest position and go first, and I am grateful. So from what I have learned, so you went to Suffolk Law, graduated in 2002?

Mary:                    Yes.

Maura:                 You're a partner at Bliss and Cavanagh in Providence, Rhode Island, and you work as a civil litigator focusing on cases and appeals involving business, employment, defamation, products liability, personal injury, insurance, and media law. And you've started to develop a probate litigation practice to handle cases in probate courts and appeals to superior court.

Maura:                 Some pro bono activities include working for the TGC Memorial fund, a fund created by your family to aid those suffering with mental illness through education, research and treatment programs. And you have received a few awards from the "Super Lawyers" magazine, rising star in New England and Rhode Island from 2010 to 2014 and super lawyer in New England and Rhode Island in 2015 to 2016. So my first question for you is how does it feel to be a super lawyer?

Mary:                    Well, it feels good. It kind of ties into the sibling theme, since Joe is also a super lawyer. My father is a super lawyer, as well, so it feels great-

Jim:                        I'm an aspiring super lawyer.

Mary:                    But it does feel great to be a super lawyer. There's a lot of people in Rhode Island and Massachusetts, as well, with that designation. But yeah, I mean I like to think I'm a super lawyer. It's nice to get that accolade, but if anything maybe it gives you a little more of a push to, hopefully you are a super lawyer and as you entered new cases and dealing with new clients. But yes, it's a nice award. It's good to feel that, recognized that way by your peers, by your other lawyers that you practice with, because it's competitive, you're competing with them for business. But in Rhode Island it's a very collegial legal community, it's a small legal community, which is one of the things I like about practicing there. So yes, it's nice. It's a nice award to get.

Maura:                 Well and the fact that it's given by your peers, that is more impressive, I think, than if it was a selection committee, because it really shows the kind of impact and reputation that you have.

Mary:                    Yeah. So it, yeah, it's good. It's a good feeling to have that award.

Maura:                 Plus it's a fun title, too, which I think you can throw on a cape and really take off.

Maura:                 So I'd love to hear a little bit about your professional journey since you graduated from Holy Cross.

Mary:                    Sure. So I graduated right in 2002 and then practiced at a couple smaller firms up in Massachusetts for I think all told about two years before I came down to Rhode Island in 2003 and started practicing where I am now. So I feel as if I've been at Bliss and Cavanagh for most of my career. During law school, I worked at some smaller firms, I also interned with a judge and things like that. So I would say that the pre-Bliss and Cavanagh experience also encompasses those jobs I had in the summers during law school.

Mary:                    But yeah, I mean it was good to go. Bliss and Cavanagh in Rhode Island is considered a medium sized firm, but it's pretty small. It's about, right now, I think we have 11 lawyers. At some point, I think we've had 12 or 13, but not like the big law, big type of firm.

Mary:                    I never practice there. Joe and Jim obviously will have different thoughts on that. But I, starting out, in Boston and then coming down to Rhode Island, I did notice a change. I think in Rhode Island I was able to get into court more. The legal community, they're smaller, there's more, in Massachusetts, a lot of the motions and things like that that young lawyers handle are handled primarily on the papers, meaning you don't go into court. So I think professionally, for me, it was starting out pretty new in Rhode Island I was able to get into court a lot and that was a good part of my development. I think we handle a lot of cases in our office staffed one or two lawyers, so from an early age there's no kind of mentorship program in a smaller firm, so you learn a lot on your feet.

Mary:                    And I think that's how I've been, a bit, I suppose to my role as the oldest it was, I was the first one to work with my father. He never worked with his father, so that was kind of a new thing in the family legal lore that I kind of just walking into, and it worked out great. But all of those things, I mean, professionally I found that being a young lawyer, you come out of law school, you have a lot to learn. You have a lot to learn about the business side of law. I think in law school you're just typically focused on the concepts and the principles and things like that. But I think going into a law firm, you start to look at the business side of it from the client's view and being efficient and things like that.

Mary:                    But in terms of subject area of law, I think you could, you gleaned from the bio. I mean we do litigation and trial work for a lot of different areas, subject areas of law. We're not pigeonholed in one area as like tax law, or family law, or something like that. So I think coming into it, I really liked that about my job. It's also one of the most challenging things about my job, because every time you get a new case, even 16 years in, sometimes you feel like you're only a couple of years off school if it's not as subject area you've dealt with very recently.

Mary:                    But I also think too, it gives you a lot of confidence, because once you've been through a case and gotten up to speed and recognized it, you see that you can apply the skills that you've learned to basically a lot of different subject areas. When it gets to the point of someone suing someone or defending a lawsuit and things like that. I do think that having the independence, being able to have really take control of the case early on, and really have client contact early on is really helpful because it gives you a broader perspective of what you're doing. If you're one of a team of 15 lawyers just maybe assigned to just one piece of a case, I think you learn more by really sitting with the client. Then you go into court, you see how the judge views it, you start to bring that into it. And I think that that is something that Holy Cross, that whole idea of the holistic learning experience and having it be meaningful. And why are we here and why are we learning?

Mary:                    Just having that view intellectually is really helpful in this profession, because you're always dealing with a lot of competing interests there. And so, yeah, so Rhode Island is a great place to practice. Practicing with my brother and father for me has been extremely rewarding. I mean I think it's something that I can't say enough about how much I, without even thinking about it, I think I mentioned, I never would have pictured that when I was even going to law school, I wanted to be a lawyer.

Mary:                    I was into the law and I had that background from hearing my father talk about cases. But now having worked with Joe and things like that, the kind of trust that's there and also just the respect that you have for your siblings and your father is great. And I find myself, when I talk to other peers who graduated when I did from law school, it wasn't the best legal market at that time, and I think it was tough. I think a lot of people have moved from firm to firm or I think of one woman who worked with me early on, she ended up, a lot of them ended up starting their own firms and things like that, and have been very successful.

Mary:                    But I find myself lucky to have landed where I have. I think I just find myself feeling very blessed and fortunate to be there.

Maura:                 That's wonderful. Yeah. Well and it's nice that especially after working somewhere for a while, to still have that feeling is really, really powerful.

Mary:                    Right.

Maura:                 Well, and since you talked about Holy Cross and its holistic mission and holistic approach, I'd love to know a little bit about how Holy Cross's mission has influenced your life.

Mary:                    Well, I think very much so the men and women for others. I mean, I think you go into each day, I have a faith and I go to church and pray about how I can sort of be open to what I can do to help people find their way or do something for others and things like that. So that kind of idea of like that discernment and that idea of why are you here and why are you doing this at this moment? I think has stayed with me as you go through each challenge, and really just that idea of bringing kind of an ethical or meaningful perspective to every situation.

Mary:                    In other words people, there's that whole rap on lawyers, you're ambulance chasers, you're just trying to make money and things like that. And I think just to get beyond that and just to say, "Well actually no, if you think about it, what is a lawyer doing?" You're actually, you're helping people understand laws that are there to protect them in this whole system of law. And one of the things I always, I've talked to Jim about this, is at Holy Cross, I took some, I was a history major but I also focused near the end in Chinese history. And Professor Turner, who was here, she did a really great seminar on the law and human rights in China.

Mary:                    It was actually kind of interesting because studying the way China views the legal system and the Chinese legal system actually made me really appreciate our system here. And just that whole idea that I think we all are raised in this society with this idea of the law and the laws are here to protect us. But if you compare that to some of the way laws are in other parts of the world where it's really just like a ruse. It's not even an actual legal system. The whole idea of innocent till proven guilty, and you have to go through these processes, and we have these systems in place. It got me really kind of energized to learn more about our system. And I think of that still, because people come with a real preconception of the fix is in, and I don't have a big, a big name lawyer, and it isn't this system. People are cynical now about our legal system, and about our government in general.

Mary:                    And I find, I think, one of the things is to just kind of stick to the basics and recognize the work of good lawyers, if you follow, there's ways within the system to make the system work for people. And so that whole idea of any situation looking at how can you, as a lawyer in the system, help the system work the way it's supposed to be. Right? By working hard, by being efficient, by really representing your client's interests the way they're meant to be represented. And I think that kind of integrity and just that that kind of meaningfulness you bring to your work, it's sort of something that always stays with me as I work through the challenges I have now. And I think that started at Holy Cross, because it was like there was those classes that were very intense both intellectually, but they also really got you thinking about why are you doing this? Why are you studying this? That's a really long winded answer, but that's also, I blame Holy Cross for that. You can't just give a quick answer.

Mary:                    Yeah, is that enough for the mission? I don't know, but.

Maura:                 Well, I think what's nice is you've worked this in a little bit already, but I'd love to know how you've taken all of that and taken your life experience and crafted your own mission. What mission drives you and how did you form that for yourself?

Mary:                    Well, it's been a process. I'd like to think that when I was born, I just read the mission and went off on my way. It didn't really work that way, there were some bumps along the way. But really, I think it's really about listening to yourself, but also recognizing your strengths and weaknesses. Right? And what is God calling you to do? I mean, and what do you want to do? Sometimes you go, it's that whole thing. They say you pray, pray, pray so hard for what you think you want, but then you have to sit and listen.

Mary:                    Maybe God is saying, "No, that's not really what you need. It's what you want." That's what you think. You think you want this big job, but then all of a sudden I think it's more of that discernment and that ability to listen and just say, "Okay, that didn't work out the way I thought it would. What can I do with this situation?" And I think that that's taken a lot of time. I mean, I think it's something that you have to practice and you have to really be open to. But hopefully I've found that dealing with people who are in different amounts of distress and being kind of like as a lawyer, I think you're part, you're an advocate, but you're also part psychologist sometimes, too. Because when people come to you, they're in a lot of times, really tough times.

Mary:                    So you end up talking to them and you end up thinking about your own life and how, not just how you can help them, but how when controversy or conflict arises in your life, how you've talked to your clients and you find yourself talking to yourself that way. And so my mission is just to be kind of trying to listen. It's hard for me. I'm a big talker. So for me the challenge is always to kind of just shut up and listen to what people are saying, but actually really reflect on it and discern and use my experience to help them, really, and to just use, as I said, my talents that I've been given by God to just help people advocate for themselves. And so I think if anything, that's how I find meaning and what I do regardless of what kind of case it is I think those things kind of stay the same through every situation.

Maura:                 Yeah. Yeah. And just good skills for life, as you said, for really all aspects of life. Yeah, absolutely. Well, and you talked a little bit about your time at Holy Cross, but I'd love for you to think back to when you were a student and really talk to us about what stands out about your time on campus, and how it's really prepared you to tackle some of these challenges. Because your job is handling others, but also how it helps you prepare to tackle some of your own.

Mary:                    Well, it's been a while, but I found Holy Cross to be a great place to learn through challenges. I mean, I found it to be academically challenging from the start. I think there was no class you could hide in, there were smaller classes and so you really had to focus and do your work.

Mary:                    And I found, unlike high school where I think I worked my hardest in the first few years, I found here, by the end, I was working a lot harder and getting much better grades, I think because I really enjoyed the learning of it. And I found that some of the seminars and things that I took later in my later years, you had to speak, you had to not just write, you had to express yourself in speaking, as well as writing with a lot of challenges, not just from the professors or from students there. And that's something that carries through to this day in the law. I mean, you're constantly having to advocate both in writing and orally. And so that kind of a preparation and those challenges I definitely carry with, stay with me as I work through the cases I have now.

Mary:                    But yeah, I think, I don't know, it's been so long. Sorry.

Maura:                 Yeah, no, and that's fine. I mean, I think if anything, the fact that it has been awhile comes to show what really stood out the most.

Mary:                    Yeah. Yeah. And it did. And it was. It was challenging for me. I mean, I had a background. I went to a public high school, which was a great high school. I was kind of a student athlete type of thing. I wasn't a real serious student, necessarily. And I definitely came out of Holy Cross, I think, much smarter and much more focused as a student. I think I always had intellectual capabilities, and I think then in law school too, and the Holy Cross foundation, I guess is the right word, really has helped me go through in all these different challenges, just high quality intellectual back and forth and really thinking things through and things like that.

Mary:                    All of those skills, those critical skills and really just being in a group of people who, an excellent level of people. Because I do think that that's one thing you remember. I don't know if it was my mom saying that you are in this rarefied world in college because everyone you encounter, a lot of people, professors, everyone's on this certain level.

Maura:                 Yeah.

Mary:                    Right?

Maura:                 Right.

Mary:                    And I think you go out in the world and you recognize that that's not always the case. And that could be for one reason or another, but I'm always grateful and I definitely think that that started here at Holy Cross, that idea that there is a sort of a higher level that things can be at and that you can do what you can to kind of keep that level within you and bring that to whatever situation you're at. So I found it challenging here.

Mary:                    And I was a student athlete. I mean that was certainly a challenge balancing that. And I find now, you look back and laugh. You say, "Oh I had a few volleyball games I had to balance it with my studies." And now with three children and working full time. Wow. I would like to say I taught me how to balance, but the kind of balancing I thought I was doing then is a little different. I'm sure you probably can relate.

Maura:                 You get eased into that, too.

Mary:                    But I suppose from that perspective, that's where you started. It's hard. It's tough here. I remember one professor telling me very clearly when I went in to try and say, "Well, I have the Patriot League Tournament." He was like, "Well, too bad. What's the Patriot league?"

Mary:                    If I kind of thought of myself as more athlete than student, he quickly corrected me of that. So that was something that I did, but I appreciate that. I think that's one of those things you don't appreciate it until later, but then when you hear of other experiences at schools where the academics aren't taken as seriously and maybe it's more of a party school and things like that, that is definitely one of those things, as you get older you recognize that was a good thing.

Maura:                 Yeah.

Mary:                    It was maybe hard to hear, but I think at the time I recognized it, too. We weren't the top athletic team here. I wasn't here in a full scholarship or something like that. But that was a balance. And I worked. I did work at a few jobs when I was here, as well. But primarily I think the most challenging part was the academics and keeping up with it and just keeping it getting better as you went through it. Right?

Maura:                 Right.

Mary:                    Instead of transferring or something.

Maura:                 Right? Yeah. Working through the challenges.

Mary:                    Yeah.

Maura:                 Yes. Absolutely.

Mary:                    I think that is a common theme for most Holy Cross grads is just pushing through, despite the incredible workload that just keeps getting piled on and on and on. And yet we all graduate and so somehow it all gets done.

Maura:                 Right, right. That was my mantra. Somehow it will get done.

Maura:                 How has your Holy Cross education influenced the way you practice law?

Mary:                    So I think I touched on this in my previous answer. I mean, I just think that whole idea of when you practice just trying to do the best you can every day with every client, taking them as they come in and listening to them. And then really listening to them and then explaining to them how you can help them with their legal problem. Right? And then explaining to them what a lawyer can do for them versus what they think a lawyer can do for them, or what they think they can get if they're paying someone to do something. But within an ethical framework. So explaining to them, this is what we can do for you. This is the law, this is the law that will help your case. This is how we can help you win your case. But here are the cons, I suppose, to that. And also here's what we won't do ethically.

Mary:                    I mean that definitely is informed by obviously an ethical, obviously it's informed by our faith, as well, but our moral center. And that was obviously a big part of the Holy Cross and the Jesuit education ethic. But yeah, I mean I think just bringing excellence, bringing humanity sort of into each interaction with the person, seeing them as a whole person, as opposed to just like another case, another file. I think that that's something that I really work at. It's easy to just forget that, the people.

Mary:                    And I think that goes into any interaction you have in the law. You're always interacting with all kinds of really high level judges and lawyers, but then clerks and other people like that. And then public defenders, we've done, Joe and I, have done some prosecution work. So you encounter in the court system, you really do encounter all different levels of society, and so I think you go into it just with a sort of a humility about that. And then just recognizing that you're just a part of that. And so I think in each case you just have to keep that in mind. And what I think is that, look, I think the system is only as good as the people who are working within it. So I think you have to hold yourself to that standard. Right? And just keep those standards in mind as you practice.

Maura:                 Well, and probably I would guess that the fact that you do work so hard to focus on the whole person contributes to why you've been recognized as a super lawyer for all of these years and received these awards. Because it's not easy to do when you're busy, when you're stressed, when you have a lot to do. And people may or may not understand the constraints that you have around you with the law and with your work. So it goes to show that it's work worth doing to really take that extra step and focus on the person along with their challenges. Yeah. So I commend you for that.

Maura:                 What's been the most satisfying or rewarding moment in your work?

Mary:                    Well, gosh, that's hard. There's been a few. I mean, I think one of the most satisfying things for me, we don't try as many cases than just the litigators in general. Joe and I have talked about this, and say my dad did. He was trying cases all the time. And I always emulated, I always thought the full package of being a lawyer was to be able to try a case from start to finish on my own, even though you always have people along the way. And there were times in my career where I didn't think I could do that or I thought maybe I'm in the wrong profession, I don't have the right temperament for this, and I got frustrated, and things like that.

Mary:                    So I did finally try a full jury case from start to finish on my own. And that to me, even though I technically lost the case, because they, without getting into too much detail. But to me, the way I felt after that, was by far the most satisfying moment for me and my entire career, because I actually had to fight against my own negativity of myself. And I just had to go forward. And I think that it really showed me, too, that I had more. Over the years, you don't get in court and try cases as much, so you start to have this almost inferiority complex as a lawyer. Like I don't know if I could do this, we don't try cases the way people used to, and things like that. And so to go in there and actually pick a jury, and try a jury case, and kind of practice all the things we've learned since law school in real time or something like that. That to me it was very satisfying for me, because I think I'm hopeful that that'll help me going forward.

Mary:                    I think I learned probably like 10 years worth of stuff that'll help my practice, to help me be a better lawyer in probably a six month period. And so for me, trying to be efficient, cram a lot of things in, that was amazing to me.

Maura:                 That was great.

Mary:                    And then another satisfying thing for me, I guess on a personal side, was that I've worked with my father for all these years and I've always emulated him. I'm the oldest and your parents, if they're good parents, because I'm a parent now, you never give your kids too much praise, because you're always trying to bring out the best in them and things like that. And so he would work with me on cases sometimes he'd really oversee them. As I went on and on, he pulled back a little bit and let me handle them primarily on my own. And I handled the case pretty much on my own, ended up winning it, a case that he typically would have handled. And so that for me too was like a very kind of, it just, again, like the trial, it really showed me what I had learned and how I can move forward. It was a real confidence booster for me too. And also just to be able to recognize that I think he would have had to trust me a pretty fair amount to give me that.

Maura:                 Yeah. Right.

Mary:                    Because I raise my own kids I recognize that. As I'm trying to let them go you recognize that as a parent that's not always so easy, because you've seen them from the time they were young. So both of those things I think were, and at a high level, career wise in terms of being a lawyer, satisfying. Because, really, you don't know when those opportunities are going to come up. So I found that those are two things that I feel really grateful for and that they were great moments for me.

Maura:                 That's wonderful.

Jim:                        She's doing pretty well with our dad. He still doesn't let me drive his car when I'm home.

Mary:                    He's either just thrown up his and given up, or he's giving us more responsibility. You be the judge.

Maura:                 Well, and my last question for you is, what advice would you have for someone who's interested in pursuing a career in law?

Mary:                    My advice would be just really to be honest with yourself about why you're doing it. And then talk to some lawyers and see what maybe their biggest regrets were or what they think practicing law is all about. Because I think, law school a lot of times I think people just go into it because it's something that if you don't really know what you want to do with a liberal arts degree, you just kind of go to law school. A lot of people do that. I don't know if they do that anymore.

Maura:                 Less so. But it used to be.

Mary:                    Used to be one of those things. So I would say, I think the law is a great profession. Like in a Holy Cross education, I mean, I think it gives you a good foundation to maybe do a lot of different things in life. As your life changes if you want to teach law or if you want to go work for our company and go in house. I've had many female peers of mine who've had families have done that successfully, gone in-house and had a different kind of law career. But I would say, just really discern, really think about why you want to go to law school and what you want to do. Because it's a big commitment and it's a hard profession, and you're constantly challenged.

Mary:                    I mean, if you want that kind of job that you can just show up, punch the clock, you know what to expect every day, and just come home, law is not for you. It's always changing. It's always challenging. And that's why I love it. That's what I would say to someone.

Maura:                 Yeah. And that is good advice, because it has since the financial crisis, it's changed significantly.

Mary:                    Right, right.

Maura:                 Yeah. Wonderful. Thank you. Thank you very much.

Mary:                    You're welcome.

Maura:                 That's our show. I hope you enjoyed hearing about just one of the many ways that Holy Cross alumni have been inspired by the mission to be men and women for and with others.

A special thanks to today's guests and everyone at Holy Cross who has contributed to making this podcast a reality.

If you or someone you know would like to be featured on this podcast, please send us an email at [email protected]. If you like what you hear, then please leave us a review.

This podcast is brought to you by the office of alumni relations at the college of the Holy Cross. You can subscribe for future episodes wherever you find your podcasts.

I'm your host, Maura Sweeney, and this is Mission-Driven. In the words of Saint Ignatius of Loyola, "Now go forth and set the world on fire".

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Theme music composed by Scott Holmes, courtesy of freemusicarchive.org.

Will McAvoy '20 interviews Frank Kartheiser '72 about living the Holy Cross mission through his work in the Worcester community.

Recorded May 8, 2019

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Transcript

Frank:                   I think Men and Women for Others talks about charity and the work of charity, but that can be, that sets up a power dynamic of one over and against the other. Whereas with others recognizes the basic dignity, worth, value of every person, no matter where they're at and that we've got to meet them face to face and that we can do more together than we can do by ourselves.

Maura:                 Welcome to Mission-Driven where we speak with alumni who are leveraging their Holy Cross education to make a meaningful difference in the world around them. I'm your host, Maura Sweeney from the class of 2007, Director of Alumni Career Development at Holy cross. I'm delighted to welcome you to today's show.

Maura:                 This episode we hear from Frank Kartheiser from the class of 1972. Frank received an honorary degree from the college in May, 2019 to celebrate his career devoted to social justice. Among some of his many accomplishments, Frank founded the Mustard Seed, a Catholic worker house in 1972. In 1993, he expanded his focus to found Worcester Interfaith. Its mission is to bring people of all religions together to strengthen communities. Will McAvoy from the class of 2020 speaks with Frank about his time at Holy Cross and how it inspired him to pursue a life devoted to service and social justice within the Worcester community.

Will:                       Thanks for coming today, definitely excited, for sure.

Frank:                   Thank you for doing this.

Will:                       Of course, of course. So first question here. I've read about the wonderful work that you've done and the important organizations that you founded over the years. I would love to hear about your professional journey in your own words. How do you come to your professional role and other involvements?

Frank:                   That's a good question. When I was, when I came, I grew up in Chicago and when I came out here to go to school, big things that were important to me going to college were football and having fun. So I hope you had bigger dreams than I did Will. But it was during the time of the Vietnam war in '68 and I had to grow up in a hurry and the reality of what was going on in the world. I came in here thinking, I'll go into business, four years here and then I'll do that. But I then realized that people in our country who don't look like me get treated differently. And that was a wake up call for me, that was embarrassing and I felt guilty about it, but I think the stronger feeling was how do I give back? What do I have to give back to the community? So that's kind of what moved me into the work I do.

Will:                       Interesting, that's absolutely amazing, I think that's awesome that you're able to do that.

Frank:                   I had to drop out of school to do it. Once I realized what was going on, I couldn't stay here in school. I just needed to be out in the world. So I dropped out and that's when I did some work in the community and then we opened Mustard Seed Catholic Worker house.

Will:                       Very nice. And you got the honorary degree this year, so that's good.

Frank:                   Yes. Yes my family was, because I dropped out, My family was saying, Oh you're finally getting your degree.

Will:                       Hey, its true enough, that's impressive.

Frank:                   Well actually I came back, I did come back in 1987 and I came back for a year, got my diploma in 1988 so I was in a 20 year plan. 68, 88.

Will:                       I've heard the five and six year, now the 20 years.

Frank:                   Well it's college, why rush it?

Will:                       Of course, of course. Enjoy it. So there's another question here. So what mission drives you? In other words, what drives the work that you do?

Frank:                   I think the most important thing for me and I didn't always realize language for this. But when I read about Pope Francis, he's a Jesuit, his talk about encountering the other and what that means and how it moves us. And I think that said to me that reality is more important than ideas. So I was up here and in school and learning about ideas and what to pursue the truth, but what I really need was, cause as a privileged white man I felt like I just wasn't in touch with reality. And so leaving the school and starting to work in the community, that learning to be real.

Frank:                   What that is like, what that's about, that's kind of driven me cause that leads to all kinds of caring for one another.

Will:                       No, I totally agree. And now currently at Holy Cross, there's a lot of students, whether it be in SPUD, community-based learning, spring break immersion, a lot of those students are trying to do the same thing. I guess they're trying to follow in your footsteps in a sense.

Frank:                   Well it's funny you say that. We had the community, SPUD had their community thing with the Donelan Center yesterday and this young woman who was leading it, a woman named Kate, she said, well she told her story a bit and she said, I came here to get into business and then I volunteered at Nativity School and now I head up the student educators and I'm going to teach at Nativity School for the next two years.

Frank:                   So I said to her, wow, that's like my story of how the reality, how being in the world and real moves the mission as you were saying.

Will:                       And I feel like the topic of this podcast, mission-driven, I feel like that's a lot of what the school does, helps form students in a sense and see what's right for them. So I guess on a similar tangent to that, how has Holy Cross's mission influenced your life?

Frank:                   The, when I was here, when I came, when I started here in 68 we didn't really have a mission statement like that. We had an an understanding that it was a good school and work hard at the academics, but it was more this sense of the mission of encountering and being with people, being real. And I think now the mission of Men and Women for Others kind of came up in that period when I was working in the community.

Frank:                   And initially it was Men and Women for Others and now the language is starting to change to get to With Others. And for me, I think that's an important change that's been important to see that happen. I think Men and Women for Others talks about charity and the work of charity. But that can be, that sets up a power dynamic of one over and against the other. Whereas With Others recognizes the basic dignity, worth, value of every person, no matter where they're at. And that we've got to meet them face to face and that we can do more together than we can do by ourselves.

Will:                       So you're saying a sense of solidarity in a sense.

Frank:                   Very good, yeah good word. Yeah, that sense of solidarity.

Will:                       My freshman Montserrat class with professor Ginny Ryan, it was entitled Exploring Differences and Modifying Technologies. And we spoke about this one document called Toxic Charity.

Will:                       Are you familiar with it?

Frank:                   I'm not. But I've read a few different articles and I can't remember it. But it goes to that toxicity.

Will:                       So it was actually, it's interesting you're referencing that, cause that sounds like a pretty parallel story to what I read in toxic charity my freshman year. I still remember it.

Frank:                   Well for me, I dropped out of school and then we opened the Mustard Seed as a way to be more immersed. And what happened was at first it was great and we're sharing food, shelter, clothing, confusion, loneliness. We shared what we had, but then the line got longer and longer and more people started to come and it became toxic in the sense that we weren't there to have a longer line at the soup kitchen.

Frank:                   That's not why we got into this. We were there to care for those folks in a crisis and then work with the institutions in our neighborhood so that people could move out of poverty, move out of that kind of situation. And unfortunately, I don't think we're very good in this country about moving out. Everyone loves charity, the for part doing for others. But this idea of doing with the justice dimension, we struggle with that.

Will:                       I feel that. And the Mustard Seed is, it's still present today, right, in downtown Worcester?

Frank:                   Yes, unfortunately, that goes to the point you were making, unfortunately, what's this, almost 50 years and we still have a soup kitchen in Worcester. We never, when we started it, we never thought this thing would endure. I'm not saying it's bad, I'm saying that's not where the dignity needs to come from, where the dignity can come from.

Frank:                   It needs to come from working with one another around changing systems that honor every person.

Will:                       I totally, I totally agree. It's interesting. So on that same tangent, is there a certain person or experience that inspired you to live out the Jesuit mission after your time at Holy cross, like a professor or mentor that comes to mind?

Frank:                   I was very fortunate Will when I decided to drop out of school to go work in the community, I bumped into professor David O'Brien and I told him I was dropping out and he said, well, where are you going to live? And I said, I don't know. He said, well, would you like to live with Joanne and me and the family? And that's probably one of the greatest things that's happened to me in my life. I had a year, it was like a private tutorial in the Catholic worker movement, community organizing, Catholic social teaching.

Frank:                   So he's been a friend and mentor, both of them, Joanne and David, and they've been tremendous. Also, I learned a lot about babysitting too. They had four little kids, two, four, six and eight at the time. But it was a great opportunity for me and for growing in my faith because faith had kind of gotten a little flat for me because my whole life had caved in. Looking at the world, what was going on, realizing how much privilege I had, but how other people weren't treated the same. And that kind of tore at my, the fabric of my Catholicism and being an American. And so to get these tools from Dave to think about other ways of being in the world that was invaluable for me, still is.

Will:                       That's really cool. And I can also say, I think there's been several professors who have done something like that.

Will:                       They haven't, they haven't taken me into their home and raised me but I have parents for that. But that's awesome that they've done that, for sure. So in regards to your work that you've done in the 40 or so years post your first year of college 50 or so years, what has surprised you most about your work?

Frank:                   I think what continues to surprise me is what little impact I've been able to have, or we've been able to have. Cause there's nothing that I want to do in the world that I can do by myself. Obviously all the things I want to do, I need other people. But we were talking earlier about the college this year dealing with demonstrations and sit ins and a lot of it comes back to race and gender and income inequality. Well that was 68 and 69 it was all those same issues.

Frank:                   And so I guess it's feeling the frustration of that and then the yearning to how do we continue to try to have a deeper impact on what's happening.

Will:                       And when you're saying that, it's like tough to just not make that much of an impact. Have you ever heard like the starfish analogy? When you said that, that immediately came to mind for me. So it's like you see a beach full of starfish and you're just one person on the beach and you're throwing a few starfish in but at least you're making a difference to that one starfish that you can help.

Frank:                   The only thing I don't like about that story, I'd go try to organize a couple of hundred people, so that we could get a couple of hundred in at a time. I'd be a little frustrated by myself one starfish at a time.

Frank:                   That's what moved me from doing the soup kitchen and doing the Catholic Worker Movement. I'm still part of it, but move me to think about community organizing as a tool for justice. Community organizing is the antipoverty tool of the Catholic church. And it has been a tremendous gift to me. It's been a way of life really.

Will:                       And I remember at the Nonprofit Careers Conference this past winter break, I remember you spoke about that. It's about the 30 or so students that were there listening about community organizing and talking about how many of these famous people that we know of, like our former president, president Obama was a former community organizer. So I think that's, that's really impressive that community organizing and being introduced to that field. It's awesome.

Frank:                   And I think we struggle with what it is.

Frank:                   How do we do it better and how do we have these broader impacts. We all know that it takes people, but in this country the wealth dynamic is so out of whack that I think it threatens our democracy where people feel like they can come together and have the impacts that they want and that we need and that wealth. I mean, in other words, everyone knows that my vote is not as important as Bill Gates and how do you deal with that kind of inequality?

Will:                       So another question we have here. In what ways have you faced challenges in incorporating your service work and social justice into your career life?

Frank:                   Say that again.

Will:                       Sure. In what ways have you faced challenges in incorporating your service work and social justice into your career life?

Frank:                   So my career is social justice. I'm not sure how to incorporate it, but I go back to the part about being at the Mustard Seed and when I was at Holy Cross and realized that people who don't look like me don't get treated the same. That was very discouraging and depressing for me and a guilt driven. And then when I was at the Mustard Seed and I saw the line getting longer and things not improving, just things getting work worse for people. That forced me to ask these questions. Why? Why is this happening? Why in the richest country in the world do we need soup kitchen? And those questions why were pushed me into more of the social justice piece. And then I had to figure out, well how do you do it? How do you do this social justice thing? And what came to out of Catholic social teaching was a recognition of community organizing as the key tool. But we got to do a better job than that. We got to do other kinds of ways to put social justice and social change to work.

Will:                       So on a similar tangent, so this is in comparison to college campus and the rest of the society of the world. So like on a college campus there is a clear cut way to bring up a new idea and certain channels exist to help implement these new programs or initiatives, in the workplace that may be a different story or basically in society. For example, for you in the Worcester society, do you have any experience of bringing up a new initiative? And how did you successfully do that?

Frank:                   That was my job to bring up new initiatives and the dynamic is a power dynamic, right? And so I needed to build power. That's how you bring up new ideas. New ideas don't come out of the mind. When I was saying that before about Pope Francis talking about reality is more important than ideas. There's a ton of great ideas and ton of great things to do. But if you don't bring people together who have the muscle to put their values into action on these new ideas, the best idea in the world is going nowhere. Does that make sense?

Will:                       Completely.

Frank:                   And so when we're doing for people, the power dynamic is almost power over. The organizing dynamic is power with. So how do we come together, make the kind of compromise, get political and make the compromises that we need to make in order to raise not the best idea, but an idea that the broadest number of people can get behind to move things forward.

Frank:                   Now some people argue that a camel is a horse made by a committee. And people hate meetings and, but I'm with Martin Buber, Martin Buber, everything is about meeting. Everything. And that's Pope Francis: encounter. And I'm not in a way to manipulate the other into doing you, what you want. I wouldn't, I'm such a whore for power. I would manipulate people. I just can't do it. It doesn't work. Or you could guilt guilt them. But unfortunately I'm Catholic, so I know the power of guilt, but it doesn't work. What works is respecting the other person and their interests and then sharing your interests and carving out opportunities for joint action. To me, that's a good idea. You see what I'm getting at?  I don't care what, I don't care what the idea is so much. What I care is that in this we have the opportunity to develop the relationships that we need to have enough trust so that we can hang together in the hard times to see that idea through to the end.

Frank:                   Does that make sense?

Will:                       No, completely.

Frank:                   Trust in our communities is shattered. We talked about Barack as a organizer. What Barack said, the problem in the inner city isn't a lack of solutions. It's a lack of power to put those solutions to work and the reason there's a lack of power in many of our inner cities is what Barack called chronic isolation. Chronic isolation, that's the definition of powerlessness. So how do we build power? Power doesn't mean you get what you want. Power means you get a seat at the table where decisions are being made about your life, about who you are, about your family, about your neighbors. The line. I don't know if you've heard this Will they say, well, if you're not on the, if you're not at the table then you're probably on the menu.

Will:                       That's tough, no it is tough.

Will:                       Yeah, it does make sense. Yeah, interesting, that's a good analogy. So in regards to balancing your home life and then also your career working in the Worcester community, how are you able to balance everything? And in regards to the students who are going to be listening to this, what would advice would you give them in regards to that?

Frank:                   I think love, love balances everything. There's a great line from attributed to, Arrupe.

Will:                       Father Pedro Arrupe?

Frank:                   Pedro Arrupe.

Will:                       The Superior General of the Jesuits.

Frank:                   Have you heard this, I don't know if you've heard it. It's like nothing is more practical than finding God. And he goes through, but at the end he says, "fall in love, stay in love, and it will decide everything". And I think, I think that's the tool, so the love helps decide everything and fall in love and stay in love. It's not, I'm not saying it's easy, but I think that's what's exciting to me. You know what I mean? That's what gets me up in the morning.

Will:                       So now it's time for the infamous speed round that you've been hearing. So this is just a list, we've got several quick questions for quick responses here. Nothing too fancy, I promise.

Frank:                   All right.

Will:                       You ready?

Frank:                   Yep.

Will:                       Okay, what was your favorite dorm on campus?

Frank:                   Wheeler.

Will:                       Wheeler, okay, Wheeler's doing well right now up near the field house in the construction.

Frank:                   Yes, I was an RA in Wheeler.

Will:                       Oh you're an RA in Wheeler, very nice. What floor?

Frank:                   One, two, I think, no, that was my first one. It must've been the third floor.

Will:                       Third floor, okay, my friends, my really close friends that I live with now, I remember my first year there on the second floor. We were always on the second floor just hanging out, watching football games.

Frank:                   Well, freshman year and my room number at Wheeler was one, no sophomore year I was, sophomore year I was in one, two, three.

Will:                       That's pretty easy to remember.

Frank:                   So that was the first floor, but then my roommate and I got to be RAs. I think it was the third.

Will:                       Very nice.

Frank:                   But then I dropped out.

Will:                       Yeah, yeah and then the whole story began.

Frank:                   That's right.

Will:                       No, that's good. What's your favorite meal on campus?

Frank:                   This is more of a joke or whatever. But you know you have names for meals?

Will:                       Of course.

Frank:                   Right? Speckled Death.

Will:                       Oh gosh.

Frank:                   Did you have like stuff like that?

Will:                       Nothing, the food here is, I'm a fan.

Frank:                   This school was, we ate family style.

Will:                       So it's changed, yeah it's changed a lot,

Frank:                   They passed out the food and if you were at the wrong end, you were thin. And so they, they, we had names, I can't even remember all the names for them. So I'm from the Midwest, so we're going down to eat and people say, oh we're having swordfish. I'm going (laughs) that's hilarious, swordfish, I love that. Cause I thought it was a joke name for what we were having and it was a first time I ever had swordfish. Oh my God, it was fabulous.

Will:                       Did you like it?

Frank:                   I loved it.

Will:                       There you go.

Frank:                   It was great. It was great.

Will:                       You got your seafood, that's good. What's your go to cool beans order?

Frank:                 When I'm meeting with students or folks up here, I'm just getting a decaf coffee.

Will:                       Decaf?

Frank:                 Yeah. It's not a, it's not a big order.

Will:                       Nothing fancy, iced or hot?

Frank:                   Hot.

Will:                       Okay.

Frank:                   Always hot.

Will:                       I'm a iced coffee fan.

Frank:                   Oh all right, mine's always hot and always D.

Will:                       Interesting, okay.

Frank:                   I'm buzzed enough Will.

Will:                       I can sense that.

Frank:                   (laughs)

Will:                       What was your favorite class on campus?

Frank:                   I took, I had a few a lot of great ones, but freshman year I took a literature course with Tom Lawlor and that guy blew my mind. He still does today, his wife Pat and he lived back over in Auburn, just over the hill. Tom was, it was just, it blew my mind all that he could take out of the readings that we were reading, all that he could fish out of there. I had never had an experience like that. And again, fed into this idea that, wow what I've been missing the whole world here, man. Where have I been? What have I been doing? Well, probably screwing around, playing football.

Will:                       Well did you get any touchdowns I hope? I guess would you say that he was your favorite professor?

Frank:                   Lawlor?

Will:                       Mm-hmm (affirmative)

Frank:                   I'd say probably Dave O'Brien, but there were so many tremendous. When I was a kid, we weren't allowed to read the Bible. The only reason you had a Bible in your house was for show and tell. And in the center of the Bible you could write down the dates of baptisms and first communion and confirmation and all that stuff. Right? But you couldn't read it. So when I came here in 68 and 69 when I started out here, we got to read some stuff, but it still, we couldn't read scripture. We could read the documents of Vatican 2 and those documents said you could read scripture. So when I came back in 87 I had a guy, Rick Murphy, who was teaching new Testament, and we actually got to read the Bible.

Will:                       It's pretty cool.

Frank:                   It was cool for me.

Will:                       Interesting. During your, during your time at Holy Cross, what was your favorite memory?

Frank:                   (laughs) I kissed my wife up on the top of the hill.

Will:                       Very nice, and the rest is history. Very nice. Last one here, what is the best part about being a Holy Cross alumnus?

Frank:                   Well, there's a bunch of great things like this honorary degree. It's been very humbling and tremendous. The kind of recognition I still get around the Chaplain's Office, I get a lot of recognition and appreciated up here. I don't know if you know this, I get a little card so I can go into the heart center and work out.

Will:                       Oh, I want one of those, I don't even have one. That's awesome.

Frank:                   So I get a little card to go workout. But just honestly, the school has a great reputation in Worcester and so when people hear that you've gone to Holy Cross, that means something in this town.

Will:                       Very nice. Thank you so much for coming, it was a great honor having you and to talk with you and learning more about your story, I really appreciate it.

Frank:                   Well, thank you Will, I'm glad you put up the time here.

Will:                       Of course. Of course.

Maura:                 That's our show. I hope you enjoyed hearing about just one of the many ways that Holy Cross alumni have been inspired by the mission to be Men and Women for and with Others.

A special thanks to today's guests and everyone at Holy Cross who has contributed to making this podcast a reality.

If you or someone you know would like to be featured on this podcast, please send us an email at [email protected]. If you like what you hear, then please leave us a review.

This podcast is brought to you by the office of Alumni Relations at the College of the Holy Cross. You can subscribe for future episodes wherever you find your podcasts.

I'm your host, Maura Sweeney, and this is Mission Driven. In the words of Saint Ignatius of Loyola "now go forth and set the world on fire".

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