Mormon History Podcast – Gospel Tangents – Mormon History Podcast

Why do conversations with Church leaders go wrong so often? Former mission president Jeff Strong says talking to leaders and parents is one of the least helpful things to do in a faith crisis. It’s 4.5 times worse than talking with siblings. Why do some family members quit speaking to those who leave? Should Church leaders better model Christian disagreement? Can a bottom up movement like this succeed in a top-down organization? Check out our conversation…

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Gospel Tangents

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Jeff Strong, author of Torn, dives deep into the data surrounding how church members and leaders handle disaffiliation. The conversation shifts from personal narrative to the practical—and often surprising—realities of how we communicate within the faith.

Strong shares a provocative statistic from his research: while 83% of those in a faith transition reach out to someone, the outcome varies wildly depending on who they talk to. Interactions with siblings and friends generally go well, but conversations with devout church leaders are four and a half times more likely to “go badly,” meaning the relationship suffers and the individual feels more inclined to withdraw from the community. Strong attributes this to a default mode of trying to “correct or contain” the person rather than building trust.

A major theme of this discussion is the “goofy cultural idea” of practicing “enforced agency.” Strong argues that when parents or leaders attempt to manipulate outcomes—such as withholding an inheritance or cutting off family members to maintain a temple recommend—they are actually infringing on the foundational doctrine of agency. He reminds listeners that stewardship does not equal control, citing Joseph Smith’s experience with the lost 116 pages as a lesson that God’s work is not dependent on our ability to control others.

Addressing the concern that change in the Church is strictly “top-down,” Strong offers a empowering alternative: bottom-up culture change. While he avoids criticizing the institution or “steadying the ark” by telling Salt Lake what to do, he insists that individuals have the power to shape the culture within their own hearts, marriages, and wards. He notes that even one “Christ-centered” Bishop can completely transform a ward’s atmosphere in a short time.

Strong concludes by urging members to stop “thinking through the amygdala”. When we act out of fear—the “circle the wagons” behavior—it shuts down spiritual growth. By choosing “perfect love” over fear, families can maintain strong relationships even when religious paths diverge. His ultimate goal is not to “recruit” people back, but to help the Church become a place where different types of people can stay, feel they belong, and remain rooted in the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

0:00 Why Conversations with Church Leaders Go Wrong

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Author Jeff Strong details the “tectonic plate shifting moment” when his son, while serving in the Missionary Training Center (MTC), suddenly wrote him about leaving the faith: both his mission and the LDS Church. At the time, Strong was serving as a Bishop. He admits that he and his wife initially handled the situation poorly by assuming their son had committed a serious sin. This personal crisis spurred Strong to conduct extensive research into disaffiliation, including qualitative work in 40 cities across 20 countries to understand the real reasons people step away from faith.

Don’t miss our other conversations Jeff: https://gospeltangents.com/people/jeff-strong

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Strong challenges the “lazy learner” stereotype, revealing that faith transitions are often deeply serious, intentional, and painful processes. Research cited by Strong shows that 49% of individuals experiencing a faith transition spend more hours than they can count over five or more years researching their decision, often likening the experience to the “death of a loved one.” Strong describes his family’s initial communication as “cavemen grunting at each other” because they were “talking under the influence” of intense fear, anger, and anxiety.

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Why are people really leaving the LDS Church? In Part 2 of our deep dive into LDS disaffiliation, we continue our conversation with Jeff Strong, author of the groundbreaking book “Torn: Why People We Love Are Leaving the Church and What We Can Learn from Them.” This episode moves beyond the statistics to explore the complex, personal “waves” of modern faith loss.

Don’t miss our other conversations Jeff: https://gospeltangents.com/people/jeff-strong

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Key topics covered in this episode include:

* Massive Scale & Methodology: Learn how the study captured the voices of 15,000 participants who cared so deeply about these issues that they spent an average of 90 minutes completing a 71-question survey.

*AI and “10,000 Pages of Heartache”: To understand the nuance of the “verbatim” stories provided by respondents, Jeff’s team utilized artificial intelligence to query over 10,000 pages of personal responses.

*Is 40% Too Low? Jeff explains why he landed on a conservative 40% figure, despite other data sets like the General Social Survey (GSS) suggesting disaffiliation could be closer to 50%.

The “Four Waves” of Disaffiliation: A look at how the reasons for leaving have shifted over time and why traditional “internet Mormon” stereotypes may not tell the whole story.

Whether you are a leader, a family member, or someone navigating your own faith journey, this episode offers a data-driven yet deeply empathetic look at how hot the “fire” of disaffiliation is burning today.

Watch Part 1 to see the initial breakdown of the 40% disaffiliation statistic and the “leaky bucket” math of church growth.

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Is the LDS Church actually shrinking? We’re talking about LDS disaffiliation with  Jeff Strong, author of the new book Torn: Why People We Love Are Leaving the Church and What We Can Learn from Them. While official membership records show steady growth, the reality of active participation tells a much more complex story. In this episode, I’ll sit down with Jeff to break down the startling data behind modern disaffiliation.

Don’t miss our other conversations Jeff: https://gospeltangents.com/people/jeff-strong

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Don’t miss our other conversations Jeff: https://gospeltangents.com/people/jeff-strong

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Gospel Tangents

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I invited Dr. Patrick Mason on to discuss reframing faith in the complex history of religion. He iis a historian and theologian at Utah State University, and discusses the evolution of his career from academic research to pastoral writing aimed at those navigating faith crises. He reflects on the limitations of a transactional approach to religion, suggesting instead that individuals must take personal accountability for their spiritual lives while remaining part of a community. Mason addresses difficult historical and moral issues, such as slavery and the priesthood ban, by arguing that past leaders were fallible and that modern believers should engage with the moral complexity of their heritage. He also shares his profound emotional experience studying the Rwandan genocide, using it as a lens to explore the problem of evil and the role of God in a suffering world. Throughout the conversation, he emphasizes the importance of creating safe spaces for honest questioning and wrestling with doubt. Ultimately, Mason advocates for a broad and inclusive religious tent where the focus remains on a faithful God rather than the perfection of human messengers. He is the author of Planted and Restoration.

Don’t miss our previous conversation with Patrick: https://gospeltangents.com/people/patrick-mason/

We explored the difficult terrain of faith crises, historical trauma, and the transition from a transactional to an authentic spiritual life. Mason, known for his pastoral works like Planted and Restoration, argues that we must move beyond a “vending machine” approach to God to find a more durable and honest faith.

Many believers grow up with an “illusion of contract,” believing that specific acts of obedience—like paying tithing or accepting every calling—guarantee divine protection from calamity. Mason points out that when life fails to follow this script, individuals often fall into a “bottomless pit” of self-blame, thinking they simply weren’t “perfect enough.” Drawing on the teachings of the Apostle Paul, Mason emphasizes that we cannot reach God purely through the law; instead, we must take individual authority over our spiritual lives while remaining anchored in a community that “decenters the ego.”

One of the most challenging aspects of a faith journey involves reconciling modern morality with the actions of past leaders, particularly regarding issues like slavery and the priesthood ban. Mason addresses the “trap of presentism”—the idea that we shouldn’t judge the past by modern standards—by noting that even in the 19th century, there were voices like Orson Pratt who critiqued slavery as an offense to our theology using the scriptures available at the time. Furthermore, Rick challenges the historical justification that the priesthood ban was necessary for the Church’s survival, noting that other restoration branches never implemented such bans.

Mason’s reflections on the 1994 Rwanda genocide serve as a sobering lens for the “problem of evil.” After visiting massacre sites in Rwandan churches, he described the experience as a confrontation with “satanic” evil that defies easy theological answers and forces us to ask, “Where was God?” This recognition of human darkness extends to his view of prophetic fallibility. Mason asserts that while prophets are “reliable guides,” they are not infallible and do not claim to be. He believes it is a mistake to treat the scriptures or prophetic statements as inerrant, noting that salvation comes through Jesus Christ alone, not through the perfection of his messengers.

To help others navigate these complexities, Mason and his wife hosted a student group in their home for years, providing a space for open gospel conversations without “guard rails.” He found that when people are given the space to wrestle with difficult questions—ranging from LGBTQ+ issues to church history—they often discover their own spiritual authority and wisdom. Ultimately, Mason suggests that the most foundational Christian covenant is not a litmus test of witnessing, but the commitment to “mourn with those that mourn” and “bear one another’s burdens.” By creating spaces where people feel heard and validated, the community can move toward a more authentic and loving practice of the gospel.

Chapters

0:00 Meet Patrick Mason

How do you handle these complex theological problems over slavery, the priesthood ban, polygamy, or other controversial practices?

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Gospel Tangents

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In the final installment Nancy Ross and Jessica Finnigan discuss their Mormon garment research, co-authors of Mormon Garments, Sacred and Secret explore the sociological themes of their book, the shifting historical meanings behind garments, and how their taboo-breaking research has been received by the community.

The authors break down the sociological framework of their book, organizing their findings around paired themes like “secrecy and sacredness,” “shame and worthiness,” and “obedience and control.” They argue that practically, the concepts of “secret” and “sacred” operate in the exact same way regarding garments, but the terminology wearers use heavily depends on their level of belief. Conforming believers tend to embrace the uplifting language of “sacredness,” while those experiencing doubt are more likely to view the practice through the lens of “secrecy” and institutional control.

Don’t miss our other conversations Nancy Ross: https://gospeltangents.com/people/nancy-ross/

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While Joseph Smith’s original garments were not about modesty, the cultural meaning of garments shifted significantly in the 1950s to become a primary tool for enforcing modesty boundaries, especially for women. The authors discuss how recent modernizations—such as the introduction of sleeveless garments—have caused emotional dissonance for older members who made significant personal sacrifices to adhere to previous, stricter modesty standards. The authors note that even when the church relaxes its rules by an inch or two, it ultimately serves as a reaffirmation of the institution’s power to control what its members wear.

The episode also highlights a fascinating historical power struggle in the 1920s. As fundamentalist Mormons clung to the original 19th-century garment design—claiming the LDS church’s 1923 modernizations were completely invalid—the mainstream church had to figure out a way to wrestle the meaning of the practice back. To do this, the LDS church actually expanded the language of the temple endowment to explicitly emphasize that the garment’s true meaning came from its marks, rather than an unalterable pattern.

Despite some immediate, dismissive pushback from critics who assumed the book would be a hostile exposé, the authors report that the overall reception has been overwhelmingly positive. Ross and Finnegan strived to write with a neutral tone and deep compassion for their former believing selves. By lifting the heavy taboo surrounding the topic, the book is providing members with the vocabulary to finally reflect on their personal experiences. Most importantly, it is giving spouses and friends the permission to have open, overdue conversations about the complex intersection of bodies, sexuality, and the physical realities of wearing garments.

0:00 Garments/Temple are Secret! (and sacred)

Don’t miss our other conversations Nancy Ross: https://gospeltangents.com/people/nancy-ross/

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Historically, members had the freedom to make their own garments from approved patterns or mark their own store-bought underwear. Over time, the patriarchal institution tightened its control, eventually establishing Beehive Clothing as the sole approved manufacturer and cutting off personal production avenues.

Nancy Ross & Jessica Finnigan shared their survey findings with the LDS Church’s correlation research division, whose researchers were shocked by several revelations. Most notably, they were surprised to learn that the physical toll of wearing garments was the primary reason some women left the Church, completely flipping the standard narrative that members leave due to a loss of faith or taking offense. Researchers were also struck by the finding that poorly fitting garments caused severe psychological distress, leading some women to believe their bodies were simply “not good enough for God.”

Don’t miss our other conversations Nancy Ross: https://gospeltangents.com/people/nancy-ross/

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Gospel Tangents

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CHAPTERS

0:00 How LDS Researchers Received the Survey on garments

The authors also highlight a stark historical double standard regarding modifications: the Church readily accommodated military men by creating new khaki or colored garments for their uniforms, but when women requested design changes for health or physical comfort, their concerns were frequently dismissed as secular “vanity”.

The segment traces the slow arc of garment modernization: 1923 Updates:

While many suggestions were adopted, the push for sleeveless garments was rejected.

Church President David O. McKay consulted Rosemary Reid, a famous swimsuit designer, to help make garments look less like 19th-century “polygamy underwear.” Reid emphasized that women desperately needed two-piece options, a design the church eventually adopted and distributed in 1979 and 1980.

The Church has introduced further modernizations like period garments, half-slips, and sleeveless options. However, the authors note that the constant minor “tweaking” of lengths and materials causes frustration for members who struggle to find a consistent fit when buying new garments.

Don’t miss our other conversations Nancy Ross: https://gospeltangents.com/people/nancy-ross/

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Are you or someone you love navigating a faith crisis? You are not alone. Jeff Strong says 40% are leaving the Church.

A historic shift is transforming the religious landscape. According to Jeff Strong’s new book Torn, nearly 40% of members are stepping away from their faith communities. But why is this happening, and how can we better understand and support those we love who leave? In this video, we unpack the insights from four groundbreaking books: Torn, Goodbye Religion, Bridges, and The Next Mormons. We are tackling the tough questions and busting the harmful myths that say people leave because they are “lazy learners,” easily offended, or simply want to sin. The reality is far more complex.

For many, a faith transition is an agonizing, lonely, and deeply principled journey triggered by a desire for moral integrity rather than a loss of morals. We will compare the data across these four sources to explore the profound emotional toll of a faith crisis, while offering actionable, research-backed advice for current members. Discover how shifting our focus from “fixing” doubts to listening, empathizing, and providing unconditional love can help build bridges and keep our families together.

Listen now to learn how we can transform judgment into compassion and better minister to those we love!

Don’t miss our other conversations on faith crisis.