Mormon History Podcast – Gospel Tangents – Mormon History Podcast

By Rick BSociety & Culture Documentary Religion & Spirituality Christianity History

Mormon History Podcast – Gospel Tangents – Mormon History Podcast episodes

May 15 Tracing Nauvoo Roots of Mormon Garments (Nancy Ross & Jessica Finnigan)
Radical History and Racial Dynamics of Mormon Garments
Nancy Ross and Jessica Finnigan, co-authors of Mormon Garments, Sacred and Secret dive into the unexpected history and sociological complexities of LDS temple garments. From Joseph Smith’s early design demands to the modern realities of race and garment surveillance, this episode uncovers the fascinating evolution of this deeply personal practice.
https://youtu.be/_Rt8-TabB-U
Don’t miss our other conversations Nancy Ross: https://gospeltangents.com/people/nancy-ross/
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Mormon Garments Radical, Seamless Origin
The conversation travels back to Nauvoo in the 1840s, where Joseph Smith first commissioned seamstress Elizabeth Warren Allred to create a garment with as few seams as possible. Because standard 19th-century clothing relied heavily on seams to economically fit the shape of a body, Allred had to cut the unyielding muslin fabric three times before meeting his specifications.
The authors debunk a popular historical myth: Joseph Smith was not simply adopting the “union suit,” as that style of single-piece underwear wasn’t developed until decades later. Instead, Smith’s design was actually a radical, progressive departure from the standard underwear of the time, anticipating later 19th-century dress and health reform movements that advocated for fewer restrictive layers.
Making Sense of the Data: 12 Years and French Philosophy
Transforming their massive 2014 survey into a book was a grueling 12-year process. Ross and Finnigan realized their raw data was far too messy and complex to neatly fit into a few journal articles. To make meaning of the thousands of intimate stories, they utilized intersectional theory (a branch of critical race theory) to understand how the disadvantages of racism and sexism impact wearers.
They also drew heavily on French philosopher Michel Foucault’s concept of the “panopticon” to explore how surveillance and secrecy operate within Mormon culture, illustrating how members internalize institutional rules to monitor themselves and others. Despite utilizing heavy academic frameworks, the authors worked diligently to weave the theory naturally into the text, ensuring the book remains highly approachable and relatable for everyday readers.
Politics of White Underwear
One of the most striking sociological discussions in the episode centers on race. The authors explicitly identify the race of their survey respondents to highlight how garments interact differently with non-white bodies. For instance, wearing stark white underclothing makes the garments highly visible against darker skin tones. Furthermore, the historical design choices for garments were largely patterned after European body shapes, creating distinct physical challenges for people of color, such as Pacific Islanders, whose bodies may not easily conform to those specific cuts.
The authors argue that because Mormon discourse heavily emphasizes purity and whiteness, the racial classification and physical realities of bodies wearing these garments make the practice inherently political. While their initial survey lacked a massive sample of people of color, their co-author Larissa Kano Kindred has since gathered data from 8,000 women—including a significant demographic of women of color—which will further explore these racial dynamics in future publications.
Century of Evolution
The episode wraps by looking at the slow arc of garment modernization. It wasn’t until 1923 that the church finally allowed for stretchy, knitted fabrics, shortened the sleeves to the elbow, and replaced string ties with buttons. Even then, as the church commissioned an internal report in the 1930s to suggest further popular changes, the long-requested move to sleeveless garments was left on the cutting room floor.
Don’t miss our other conversations Nancy Ross: https://gospeltangents.com/people/nancy-ross/
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0:00 History of Garments
10:32 How 3 Authors Write a Book
27:34 Racial Differences?
What do you think of the history? Had you considered all of these factors?
32 min
May 11 Presenting Taboo Research to LDS Leaders: What We Told the Church (Nancy Ross & Jessica Finnigan 1 of 4)
I sat down with scholars Nancy Ross and Jessica Finnigan to discuss their taboo research on Mormon garments. They, along with Larissa Kanno Kindred, are the co-authors of the groundbreaking book Mormon Garments, Sacred and Secret. The deeply candid conversation pulls back the curtain on a historically taboo research topic within Latter-day Saint culture, exploring the complex intersections of theology, historical evolution, and the very real physical realities of wearing temple garments.
Don’t miss our other conversations Nancy Ross: https://gospeltangents.com/people/nancy-ross/
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What started as a small research project in 2014 quickly exploded when the authors’ survey garnered 4,500 responses in just one week. The authors were stunned by the heavy, unexpected stories pouring in, which highlighted a stark contrast between the experiences of men and women. While men generally reported lower physical costs, women detailed the immense, ongoing physical toll associated with wearing garments day and night through various stages of life.
Medical Reality of “Pads and Gore”
The authors frankly discuss how the required underclothing frequently traps heat and moisture, disrupting the body’s natural pH. This environment contributes to severe medical issues for some women, including chronic yeast infections, urinary tract infections (UTIs), and in extreme cases, precancerous lesions. Managing menstruation, pregnancy, and nursing while wearing garments often creates a difficult “mess,” yet women expressed immense guilt over taking them off, even when their doctors explicitly begged them to stop wearing the garments at night for health reasons.
Silence, Surveillance, and Strictness
Ross and Finnigan explain that the institutional silence surrounding garments created a dangerous void. Because there was no official guidance for biological realities, the void was typically filled by the most demanding, conservative voices in the community. Women were left navigating complicated, unofficial rules—such as whether it was acceptable to wear regular underwear underneath their garments to hold period products in place. Furthermore, the surveillance of other people’s underwear practices is deeply normalized within the culture, adding psychological pressure. The authors also noted that for individuals experiencing doubt, the garments often shifted from being a symbol of faith to a psychological tool of institutional control.
Opening the Door for Change
Despite receiving pushback from the community for discussing the topic, the authors actually presented their findings directly to the LDS church’s correlation research division to advocate for women’s gynecological health. Recently, there have been very positive developments, including new handbook updates that explicitly allow bishops to grant medical accommodations. Additionally, the church has introduced much-needed modernizations like half-slips, full slips, and period garments. By breaking the silence, the authors hope their work will validate the varied bodily experiences of women in the church and make the practice of wearing garments much kinder and more flexible for everyone.
0:00 Meet Nancy & Jessica
1:44 Are Garments Taboo?
5:27 Presenting to LDS Leadership?
9:20 Gender Differences with Garments

Don’t miss our other conversations Nancy Ross: https://gospeltangents.com/people/nancy-ross/
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33 min
May 08Why No Children for Joseph Smith’s Plural Wives (Rick B)
No Children for Joseph Smith?
Joseph Smith’s plural wives
One of the most frequent arguments raised by skeptics of Joseph Smith’s polygamy is the “fertility paradox.” While Joseph Smith fathered several biological children with his first wife, Emma, there are zero verified offspring from his estimated 30 to 40 plural marriages. DNA testing on suspected plural children has continuously ruled out Joseph as the father in every known case. Does this lack of physical evidence prove his plural marriages were non-sexual? According to a statistical analysis by Rick Bennett and a research team, the absence of children is not a biological impossibility, but rather a predictable outcome of history, biology, and law.
https://youtu.be/Zz6BpX2wZd0
Statistical Models of Probability
Bennett, alongside a team that included OBGYN Dr. Joseph Stanford, built four statistical models to determine the mathematical probability of Joseph Smith having zero children with his plural wives. These models factored in female ovulation cycles and historical documentation of Smith’s whereabouts, assuming no birth control was used:
Restricted & Low Models: Assuming very infrequent relations and excluding teenagers and already-married women, the probability of zero children sits between 22% and 47%. Bennett equates this to a coin flip or rolling a double in Monopoly, making zero children a statistically unsurprising outcome.
Medium (Consensus) Model: Assuming one or two encounters around the time of the sealing for a broader group of wives, the probability of zero children drops to roughly 9% to 13%.
High Model: Only when assuming large possible historical encounters across 37 women does the probability of zero children become statistically microscopic (around 0.03%).
Biological Factors and 19th-Century Demographics
A significant reason for the lack of children stems from the demographic makeup of Joseph’s plural wives. At least five women were post-menopausal (over age 47) and 11 were “polyandrous” wives already married to other men. Furthermore, several brides were teenagers. Interestingly, poorer nutrition and rigorous physical labor in the 19th century delayed a woman’s first period (menarche) until an average age of 17, meaning many of the youngest wives were likely prepubescent and physically infertile at the time of their sealings (See Dan Vogel’s presentation.)
Contraception and the Concept of “Quickening”
If the High Model is accurate and sexual relations were frequent, Bennett notes that the Nauvoo community had widespread access to birth control. Popular texts from the 1830s heavily circulated knowledge about methods like the sponge, withdrawal, and highly acidic douching to prevent pregnancies. Additionally, 19th-century medical and Mormon theological consensus believed that a soul did not enter a fetus until “quickening” (around 20 weeks.) Because of this, early herbal interventions used to “restore the menses” were viewed simply as regulating the female body, rather than as abortion or sin.
Legal and Theological Survival
Ultimately, concealing pregnancies was an absolute necessity for survival. In Illinois, bigamy and adultery were felonies heavily penalized by fines, whipping, and imprisonment. Under the law, a child would serve as incontrovertible physical proof of illicit cohabitation, inviting immediate legal prosecution and mob violence.
To avoid exposure, the theology of plural marriage subtly shifted. While originally grounded in an “Abrahamic” mandate to multiply and raise up seed on earth, the practice pivoted to a “Melchizedek” order. This new paradigm was focused on creating secret, dynastic priestly linkages for eternal salvation in the afterlife, entirely bypassing the legal dangers of earthly procreation.
In short, the absence of children in Nauvoo polygamy is not a historical impossibility, but a reality forcefully shaped by 19th-century logistics, biology, and the heavy anvil of American law.
Don’t miss my previous presentation!
0:00 Introduction to Rick
7:01 Fertility Paradox
8:34 Plural Wives History
15:18 Biology of Pregnancy
17:35 Grouping the Wives
22:17 Pregnancy Results
25:09 Knowledge of Birth Control/Abortion in 19th Century
30:31 Types of Contraception in Nauvoo
34:08 Quickening
36:20 Life Begins at Conception?
37:37 Mormon Market for Abortifacients
39:24 Theology Behind Lack of Children
40:23 Legal Reasons to Avoid Pregnancy
47:10 Theological Pivot
50:35 Conclusion Why 0 Children Not Unusual
51:58 Q&A Why Not Accept Joseph Wasn’t Polygamist?
53:19 Is Eliza Manwaring a Plural Wife?
58:43 Pushing Back on Certain Claims
1:01:27 RLDS Missions to Utah
1:03:58 Temple Implications for Rejecting Polygamy
1:06:24 Can temple sealings be non-sexual?
1:07:44 Is there anything wrong with Ugo Perego’s DNA Tests?
1:10:28 Is it reasonably possible Joseph had no children?
1:14:58 Don Bradley’s Theory on Legalizing Polygamy?
1:17:18 Dynastic Sealings to Create Ethnic Group
1:19:50 Why are both polygamy and temple ceremonies secret?
1:33:51 Sheep & Goat condoms
1:35:01 Older Male Fertility/Young & Old Female Fertility
1:38:49 Multi-Purpose Temples
1:44:19 Why Menarche Later in 19th century
1:47:43 Jacob 2:30-Why no children is Plausible
1 hr 57 min
April 29Why RLDS Finances are STILL in Trouble (John Hamer 6 of 6)
The Community of Christ has sold the Kirtland Temple and several Nauvoo properties to the LDS Church for a jaw-dropping $200 million. But RLDS finances are still shaky! That money is only expected to keep the church afloat for about five years. Historian John Hamer joins us to explain why he thinks the deal could have been much better, why he’s disappointed there are still no openly gay apostles, and to share his brutally honest thoughts on Steven Veazey’s leadership. Stick around—this conversation pulls no punches.
John is the co-author of Scattering of the Saints: Schism Within Mormonism.
Don’t miss our other episodes with John Hamer! https://gospeltangents.com/people/john-hamer/
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Deep Dive into the Kirtland Temple Sale & Path Forward
The recent sale of the Kirtland Temple sent shockwaves through the Latter Day Saint movement, and for the Community of Christ (formerly RLDS). It highlighted significant and ongoing financial challenges. John Hamer, a Community of Christ historian and Seventy, has offered candid insights into the church’s financial state, the controversial temple sale, and his hopes for the future.
Kirtland Temple Sale: A “Pittance” and a Crisis of Legitimacy
The sale of the Kirtland Temple to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church) for less than $200 million was a deeply troubling event for many in the Community of Christ. John Hamer describes the price as a “pittance,” emphasizing that the property’s value, particularly in terms of “legitimacy” for the LDS Church, is “priceless” and far exceeds the sale amount. He provocatively suggests that the LDS Church, with its “hundreds of billions of dollars,” would not sell the temple for even $200 billion.
A major point of contention was the lack of transparency and consultation surrounding the sale. The decision was made “in secret,” without any input from the World Conference, the church’s “giant legislature”. This went against historical precedent, as a previous General Conference had determined that a revelation would be necessary to sell the Kirtland Temple, which had originally been built by revelation.
Hamer views the sale as a missed opportunity, stating that it was sold for “a third of what was necessary” for the church to achieve a “sustainable endowment for operations” (which he estimates would have required $600 million.) He suggested that a wealthy family foundation within the Community of Christ could have acquired the assets for the same price, held them as an investment, and then sold them to the LDS Church for a significantly higher amount later, but this option was not considered.
Broader RLDS Financial Woes and Leadership Accountability
The Kirtland Temple sale is just one symptom of deeper financial struggles within the Community of Christ:
Declining Tithing to Headquarters: Over the 20-year tenure of former prophet-president Steve Veazey, “tithing to headquarters… has gone down so precipitously,” with only around 6,000 members in the United States and Canada contributing to the world church. Hamer attributes this partly to members feeling their input is ignored when resolutions from the World Conference are ruled “out of order” by the executive leadership.
High Operating Costs: The Community of Christ headquarters apparatus costs approximately $2.5 million annually to operate, while its current income is less than $10 million.
Unsustainable Endowment: The endowment established to perpetually fund the Independence Temple was, in Hamer’s opinion, “invested not like a responsible investor would do” and became “not worth anything” during Veazey’s leadership. Unfunded pension obligations also contributed to the financial crisis.
Short-Term Fix: The $200 million from the Kirtland Temple sale is projected to sustain headquarters only until “up through 2030,” after which “anything goes”. This raises concerns about the future of other significant properties, such as the Community of Christ Auditorium (which Hamer argues functions as a temple for the church) and Graceland University, both of which face potential future sale or closure.
Hamer is critical of the leadership during this period, suggesting that Steve Veazey should have “take[n] responsibility for the fact that all of this financial loss schemes had happening on your watch and resign yourself”. He contrasts Veazey’s tenure, which he describes as “unmitigated decline,” with earlier presidents like Joseph Smith III and Fred M. Smith, who oversaw significant church growth and modernization.
New Leadership and Hope for a “Prophetic People”
Despite the financial challenges, Hamer expresses hope for the future under the new prophet-president, Stassi Cramm. He describes her ordination as “electric” and highlights her “incredible competence” and extensive experience as a presiding bishop and apostle.
Hamer believes that Cramm has the potential to lead the church toward necessary reforms. He advocates for her to establish a constitutional system for leadership oversight and responsible government, moving beyond a “fixed chain of succession” or a “prophetic monarchy”. This would allow the church to fully embrace its calling to be a “prophetic people,” where all members have input and leaders are accountable. He even suggests term limits for the president, such as a six-year term with the possibility of renewal. Such reforms, he argues, would retroactively legitimize Cramm and her successors by grounding leadership in the collective discernment of the church.
Furthermore, Hamer finds inspiration in the decentralized and innovative spirit within the Community of Christ:
Local congregations and mission centers, such as his “Beyond the Walls” ministry in Toronto, have demonstrated significant growth and outreach, attracting thousands of subscribers online, many of whom are not from a Restoration background.
Members in places like French Polynesia are taking initiative to create their own resources, like French-language pamphlets, rather than waiting for headquarters.
While the financial situation at headquarters remains a concern, Hamer is hopeful that Stassi Cramm’s leadership and the self-empowered efforts of the “prophetic people” within the Community of Christ can guide the church toward a meaningful and growing future.
Don’t miss our other episodes with John Hamer! https://gospeltangents.com/people/john-hamer/
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1 min
April 28 Are Big Money BYU Sports Compatible with LDS Church Mission?
Are Big Money BYU Sports Compatible with LDS Church Mission? Dr. Matthew Bowman, co-author of “Game Changers,” zeroes in on the ultimate tension in modern collegiate sports: can you balance God, Mammon, and big money athletics? As BYU integrates into the lucrative Big 12 conference, the historic values of amateurism are directly clashing with the pursuit of NBA stardom.
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The Kevin Young Factor
While millions of dollars and family-friendly environments played a huge role in landing top recruit AJ Dybantsa, his third reason for choosing BYU was head coach Kevin Young. Young left a highly promising coaching career in the NBA to come to Provo, bringing invaluable professional connections with him. During a recruiting pitch, Young even pulled out his phone, called NBA superstar Kevin Durant—whom he coached in Phoenix—and handed the phone directly to Dybantsa. Young is explicitly selling recruits on his ability to get them to the NBA, cementing college sports as a professional stepping stone.
Cautionary Tale of Jimmer Fredette
Matt contrasts this new era of “one-and-done” recruits with the legacy of Jimmer Fredette. Bowman describes Fredette as a player built for the traditional amateur college game who was unfairly pushed into the modern “massive media industrial complex” that demands individual celebrity. Unlike Danny Ainge, who thrived by fitting into a cooperative team system and sharing the ball, Fredette was forced to carry the entire team on his back. This intense pressure to be a singular, massive celebrity ultimately did him a disservice when he reached the NBA, making him a cautionary tale of how modern sports media can chew players up.
God vs. Mammon on the Hardwood: Is this massive influx of money compatible with BYU’s mission?
Bowman argues there is no easy answer. On one hand, church leaders like Henry Eyring have previously expressed that a successful football team acts as a powerful missionary tool. On the other hand, the millions of dollars involved shift the focus away from the character-building, cooperative origins of the sport. Today, the game is increasingly about individual stardom and financial gain, causing significant tension with the university’s spiritual goals.
Will BYU Ever Drop Athletics?
Given this tension, a popular rumor suggests that future church leaders might eventually eliminate BYU’s sports programs entirely, mirroring the decision made years ago to drop athletics at Ricks College (now BYU-Idaho). However, Bowman believes this is highly unlikely. The financial momentum of BYU athletics is simply too powerful to stop. Between Big 12 television money and the sheer influence of massive donor groups—BYU’s NIL collective, the “Royal Blue,” is reportedly the second-largest in the country behind Kentucky—eliminating the sports programs would result in intense backlash from wealthy boosters.
Don’t miss our other discussions with Matthew. https://gospeltangents.com/people/matthew-bowman
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1 min
April 25 Why AJ Dybantsa Picked BYU Over Everyone Else (Matt Bowman 3 of 4)
Big Money, Big Changes, and Why AJ Dybantsa Picked BYU
AJ Dybantsa and just declared for the NBA draft. We discuss why AJ Dybantsa picked BYU. He’s likely top NBA prospect, and he is reportedly earning millions to play in Provo. Dr. Matthew Bowman, author of Game Changers, dives into the modern reality of college sports and its collision with BYU’s historical values. We explore the massive shifts brought about by NIL (Name, Image, and Likeness) deals and how BYU continues to rely on its unique religious culture to recruit top talent.
0:00 Why AJ Dybantsa Picked BYU
8:45 Protests Against BYU/Recruiting
15:27 Money, Religion, & Sports
Don’t miss our other discussions with Matthew. https://gospeltangents.com/people/matthew-bowman
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The NIL Revolution and the End of the “Student-Athlete”
For decades, the NCAA heavily enforced strict amateurism rules—sometimes to absurd lengths, such as penalizing a player for putting cream cheese on a bagel provided by a coach, or suspending players if a fan took them out to dinner. However, recent lawsuits, spearheaded by former players like Ed O’Bannon, have completely dismantled this restrictive system. Today, athletes can legally profit from their likeness and sign massive endorsement deals. Through BYU’s NIL collective “The Royal Blue,” as well as sponsorships like Crumbl Cookies, AJ Dybantsa is set to make around $5 million to play at BYU.
More Than Just a Paycheck
While the massive payday is undeniable, Dybantsa’s family stated they requested the exact same monetary offer from all the schools recruiting him—including heavyweights like Kansas and Arkansas—so that his final decision wouldn’t strictly be about the highest bidder. Ultimately, Dybantsa chose BYU because of its strong emphasis on family and its supportive environment. His parents, Ace and Chelsea, actually toured the campus first and were highly impressed by what they saw.
This family-centric appeal isn’t just for players. Head coach Kevin Young left a highly promising NBA career trajectory to coach at BYU, specifically because the university environment offered a better work-life balance for his family, including not having to work on Sundays.
Navigating Race and Religion on Campus
let’s look at the complicated history of race in BYU athletics. During the Ernest Wilkinson era in the 1960s and 70s, the school faced federal investigations and intense protests—such as the Wyoming 14 incident—over its virtually all-white teams and the church’s racial priesthood ban. It wasn’t until the last decade that BYU fielded its first all-black starting five in basketball.
Today, recruiting has shifted in fascinating ways. While BYU has historically struggled to recruit Black athletes due to the cultural difficulties of the Honor Code, the university is increasingly finding success by recruiting religious non-LDS players. Many Muslim athletes, for instance, find the Honor Code’s strict ban on alcohol perfectly aligned with their own faith. Dybantsa, whose parents have Catholic roots from the Congo and Jamaica, similarly found BYU’s faith-based environment appealing. Other religious players, like Eastern Orthodox athletes, have also explicitly praised the school for supporting their strong personal faith.
The Struggle for BYU’s Soul
As BYU competes in the Big 12, it faces a philosophical crossroads. Some Ivy League schools chose to stop chasing athletic scholarship money, allowing their sports programs to recede into purely amateur, educational endeavors. But BYU has taken a different path. The university is now grappling with the tension between its original religious mission and the modern reality of operating what critics call “professional teams with schools attached”.
To dive deeper into the fascinating intersection of big money, faith, and the future of BYU athletics, catch the full episode on Patreon.com/GospelTangents!
Don’t miss our other discussions with Matthew. https://gospeltangents.com/people/matthew-bowman
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18 min
April 22 Global Evolution of LDS Basketball
If you think college basketball has changed drastically, wait until you hear about the Global Evolution of LDS Basketball. This happened before the introduction of millions of dollars in NIL deals. Wait until you hear the history of how the sport evolved at BYU and around the world. Dr. Matthew Bowman, co-author of “Game Changers: AJ Dybantsa, BYU, and the Struggle for the Soul of Basketball,” discusses the sport’s explosive, global, and highly controversial growth.
Don’t miss our other discussions with Matthew. https://gospeltangents.com/people/matthew-bowman
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0:00 All-Church Basketball Championship
3:10 Olympic/International Basketball
9:37 Big Money Basketball at BYU
23:38 Krešimir Ćosić: Best at BYU?
If you think college basketball has changed drastically with the introduction of millions of dollars in NIL deals, wait until you hear the history of how the sport evolved at BYU and around the world. Dr. Matthew Bowman, co-author of Game Changers: AJ Dybantsa, BYU, and the Struggle for the Soul of Basketball, shifts the conversation from the Christian origins of the sport to its explosive, global, and highly controversial growth.
The Golden Era of the All-Church Tournament
Before March Madness dominated the spring, the All-Church basketball tournament was a massive cultural phenomenon. Flourishing after World War II, the tournament featured thousands of teams from wards all over the globe, with regional champions flying into Salt Lake City to compete in the finals at the Deseret Gymnasium. The tournament was so prestigious that Marion D. Hanks actually quit the University of Utah basketball team just to play in the All-Church tournament. The competition was incredibly fierce—wealthy members would even offer jobs and build houses to lure talented players to move into their wards to stack their local team roster.
Hoops Diplomacy: Missionaries Take the Court
Long before the controversial “baseball baptisms” of the 1960s, LDS missionaries were using basketball as a grassroots tool for international diplomacy. As Americans who had grown up playing the sport, missionaries arriving in places like Europe, Argentina, and Australia were often vastly superior to local club teams. Using the Protestant language of “muscular Christianity,” missionaries challenged local YMCA and national teams, using the games to break down anti-Mormon prejudices and build bridges. Sometimes, they were so good they ended up coaching or playing for national teams. Missionary Ralph Larson, for instance, stayed in Argentina and became a celebrity playing for the Argentine national team.
The Battle for BYU’s Soul: Watts vs. Wilkinson
As college basketball grew into a lucrative business, a massive ideological battle took place at BYU. On one side was university president Ernest Wilkinson, who fiercely believed in the pure amateur ideal. Wilkinson believed sports were strictly for the personal edification of current students; he despised the idea of athletic scholarships, recruiting players who didn’t fit the university’s academic mission, or bringing in non-LDS ringers.
On the other side was legendary BYU basketball coach Stan Watts, who wanted to modernize the program and compete at the highest level. Watts pushed for scholarships, brought the fast break to BYU, and led the team to an NIT championship at Madison Square Garden. This massive victory brought immense publicity and booster money to the school, eventually paving the way for the massive Marriott Center to be built.
The Original AJ Dybantsa: Kresimir Cosic
Ultimately, Stan Watts’ vision for a modern, competitive basketball program won out over Wilkinson’s strict amateurism, culminating in the arrival of Kresimir Cosic. Arguably the greatest player in BYU history, Cosic was an incredibly gifted 6’11” forward from Yugoslavia who played with the ball-handling skills of a modern guard.
Cosic was not LDS and didn’t even know BYU was a religious school when he decided to come. He met a Finnish BYU player at a European tournament, defected during a game in Italy, hopped in a cab, and flew to New York, calling Coach Watts from the airport to announce his arrival. Cosic was so talented he was drafted into the NBA twice, but turned it down to return to his home country. He eventually embraced the LDS faith enthusiastically, forever changing the trajectory of BYU’s basketball program and proving that international, non-LDS talent could thrive in Provo.
To hear more about the dark history of the NCAA’s “student-athlete” myth, Kresimir Cosic’s legendary career, and the modern implications for stars like AJ Dybantsa, check out the full episode on Patreon!
Don’t miss our other discussions with Matthew. https://gospeltangents.com/people/matthew-bowman
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29 min
April 20 Why Every LDS Church Has Basketball Court (Matthew Bowman 1 of 4)
If you’ve ever stepped inside a Latter-day Saint meetinghouse, you likely noticed almost every LDS Church has basketball court. But have you ever wondered why basketball became the unofficial sport of the church?
Dr. Matthew Bowman, the Howard W. Hunter Chair of Mormon Studies at Claremont Graduate University discussed his new book, Game Changers: AJ Dybantsa, BYU, and the Struggle for the Soul of Basketball, which he co-authored with BYU alum Wayne LeCheminant. Their fascinating conversation peeled back the historical layers of basketball, revealing that the sport was intentionally designed to promote religious virtue/
0:00 Why Basketball is a Christian Sport
9:10 BYU Banned Football?
12:35 Why LDS Church Adopts Basketball

Don’t miss our other discussions with Matthew. https://gospeltangents.com/people/matthew-bowman
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Invention of a “Christian” Sport
While many fans know that James Naismith invented basketball using peach baskets in Springfield, Massachusetts, few realize that Naismith explicitly designed basketball to produce “Christian gentlemen”.
Naismith was a frustrated minister working at a YMCA training school during the dead of winter. His students were bored with indoor calisthenics, but it was too cold for outdoor sports. To keep them active, Naismith created basketball, drawing heavily on the popular 19th-century concept of “muscular Christianity,” which taught that developing a healthy body was just as important as developing a healthy soul.
Unlike other popular sports of the era, Naismith structured basketball around self-sacrifice and fellowship. He believed baseball was too individualistic, focused largely on the isolated duel between pitcher and batter. By contrast, basketball was designed as a game of unending cooperation. The earliest rules only allowed passing or shooting—no dribbling—forcing players to subordinate their individual egos for the good of the team.
Civilized Alternative to Football
In the 1890s and early 1900s, football was wildly popular but incredibly violent. Without modern helmets or pads, the sport was literally killing dozens of players each season. In 1905 alone, 18 football players died, leading multiple states to consider banning the sport entirely.
Because of this brutality, the board of trustees at Brigham Young Academy (now BYU) voted to ban football in 1901. Basketball was championed as the perfect, civilized alternative. It allowed for vigorous physical activity without the deadly consequences, aligning perfectly with the moral framework desired by religious leaders.
LDS Church Has Basketball Court
As the LDS Church looked to expand out of Utah and into urban centers across the country, basketball offered a logistical advantage. While baseball required large outdoor fields, a basketball court could easily be placed inside a church building right in the middle of a city.
During the presidency of Joseph F. Smith, the Church built the massive Deseret Gym in Salt Lake City (where the Conference Center stands today), featuring multiple basketball courts. By the 1920s, the Church formally recommended that wards build “recreation halls” or “amusement halls” under the same roof as their worship spaces.
The primary goal of these courts was to attract the youth. Church leaders believed that by offering basketball, they could bring young men off the streets and into the Church building. Because young men were priesthood holders necessary for the formation of new wards, keeping them engaged in wholesome, cooperative activities was seen as crucial to the church’s growth.
To hear the full interview and learn more about how modern money is reshaping BYU’s basketball legacy, check out the full episode on Gospel Tangents!
What’s Next?
Basketball’s role in the Church evolved deeply throughout the 20th century, leading to massive All-Church tournaments and a prominent NCAA footprint at BYU. However, the landscape of college basketball is shifting. Today, athletes like BYU’s AJ Dybantsa are navigating an era of millions of dollars in NIL (Name, Image, and Likeness) money and “one-and-done” draft prospects—developments that past leaders like Ernest Wilkinson would likely have hated.
Don’t miss our other discussions with Matthew. https://gospeltangents.com/people/matthew-bowman
Copyright © 2026
Gospel Tangents
All Rights Reserved
22 min
April 131147: Fascinating LDS Perspectives with Coptic Orthodox Easter Tradition (Rick B)
Orthodox Easter this year was a week later than Western Christianity. I was able to take a unique journey into Orthodox Easter traditions and the historical resilience of early Christianity.
It was a fascinating experience to visit St. Mary’s Coptic Orthodox Church in Clearfield, Utah, after meeting a California member named Daniel Michalski. Unlike Western traditions, the Coptic Easter service is held on Saturday night and can last up to four hours, featuring a blend of English, Coptic, and Arabic chanting. One of the most striking rituals is the procession of the icon of Christ, which is buried in roses during Holy Week and then “resurrected” as the lights are turned on, accompanied by the unique sound of cymbals. Beyond the personal experience, we dove into the history of the Coptic Church, which split from Western Christianity in 451 AD following the Council of Chalcedon over complex theological debates regarding the nature of Christ.
This history is framed within a broader discussion of the early Christian era, moving from the movement’s roots as a persecuted sect to its establishment as the Roman state religion under Constantine. Most Mormons are familiar with the death and resurrection of Christ and Constatine’s ascension in the 4th century, but know little about history of Christianity in the centuries in between. I discussed various early factions, such as the Gnostics, who prioritized secret wisdom over the physical resurrection, with the orthodox view that eventually triumphed.
We also touched on the following key points:
LDS Perspectives: We emphasized the physical resurrection of Jesus, citing recent General Conference messages regarding the victory of the empty tomb.
Calendar Differences: The discrepancy between Western and Orthodox Easter dates were explained by the use of the Julian calendar versus the Gregorian calendar.
Coptic Practices: Insights into infant baptism by immersion, the practice of closed communion, and the fact that Coptic priests can be married are also highlighted.
Community Highlights: The episode concludes with a book giveaway of Holiness to the Lord and a teaser for a future discussion with Dr Matthew Bowman on the “Christian” roots of basketball.

Part 1: Personal Experience and the Coptic Orthodox Easter Service
0:00 – Introduction and Book Giveaway:
2:00 – Meeting Daniel Michalski:
5:00 – Attending the Coptic Service in Clearfield: attending a four-hour Saturday night Easter service, including observations on the small congregation and the use of English, Coptic, and Arabic.
10:00 – The Resurrection Ritual: An explanation of the dramatic liturgical moment where an icon of Christ is “resurrected” from a bed of roses, accompanied by chanting and cymbals.
Part 2: History of Early Christianity
15:00 – The Great Schism of 451: includes a discussion on the Council of Chalcedon and how a theological dispute over a preposition regarding the nature of Christ led the Coptic Church to split from Western Christianity.
19:00 – Historical Jesus and the Temple: The host analyzes the cleansing of the temple as a political act of subversion that directly led to Jesus’s execution.
23:00 – The Crucifixion and Gospel Narratives.
27:00 – Mechanics of Crucifixion.
Part 3: Early Factions and the Rise of Orthodoxy
29:00 – The Gnostics and Secret Wisdom, including a mention of the Gospel of Judas.
32:00 – Marcionites and the Canon:.
34:00 – Bishop Irenaeus and “Straight Thinking”: The origins of the term “Orthodox” and the establishment of the four-gospel rule.
37:00 – Eras of Roman Persecution: Christian martyrs, including the story of Perpetua.
Part 4: Constantine and the Modern Church
41:00 –Constantine Transformation.
45:00 – LDS Perspectives on Easter.
47:00 – Coptic Practices Explained.
Part 5: Conclusion and Teasers
53:00 – Book Giveaway Results.
54:00 – The Future of “Church Ball”: Upcoming interview about the Christian roots of basketball and the role of Mormon missionaries in spreading the sport.
56:00 – Calendar Discrepancies: explanation of why Orthodox Easter often falls on a different date due to the Julian vs. Gregorian calendars.
1 hr 4 min
April 11Did Early Temple Sealings Guarantee Heaven? (Jonathan Stapley 2018 interview)
Did Early Temple Sealings Guarantee Heaven? Dr. Jonathan Stapley, an award-winning historian—and surprisingly, a PhD in carbohydrate chemistry discusses his Mormon History Association Best Book Award-winner, “The Power of Godliness: Mormon Liturgy and Cosmology.” This is a fascinating deep dive into how early Latter-day Saints understood priesthood, the lost history of female ritual healing, and how the church’s ordinances have evolved over time.
0:00 Cosmological Priesthood
17:29 Mormon Women healing
31:36 Mormon Priestess
44:24 Dallin Oak: Women Have Priesthood!
53:21 Alternative Medicine
1:01:52 Baby Blessings
1:13:21 Temple Sealings
1:22:15 Armininianism vs Calvinism: Are Mormons Saved?
Don’t miss our other discussions with Jonathan. https://gospeltangents.com/people/jonathan_stapley
Copyright © 2026
Gospel Tangents
All Rights Reserved
Uncovering the Lost History of Mormon Liturgy: A Deep Dive into The Power of Godliness
If you have ever been curious about the evolution of Mormon rituals, Dr. Jonathan Stapley offers a fascinating look into the archives. Stapley, a scientist by trade and a historian by passion, discusses his 2018 award-winning book, The Power of Godliness: A Mormon Liturgy and Cosmology.
While Latter-day Saints rarely use the term “liturgy,” Stapley argues it is a tremendously powerful concept for framing the worship, rituals, and ordinances that construct the Mormon universe.
Redefining the Priesthood: Ecclesiastical vs. Cosmological
To make sense of historical shifts, Stapley introduces a vital framework that splits early Mormon priesthood into two distinct categories:
Ecclesiastical Priesthood: This represents the offices of the church (deacons, teachers, priests, elders, bishops, etc.).
Cosmological Priesthood: Developed in the Nauvoo Temple, this encompasses the “heaven on earth” structure where men and women act as kings, queens, priests, and priestesses.
While early church members viewed these liturgical structures as ways to channel the power of God, by the 20th century, standard church catechisms shifted to simply defining the priesthood as the literal power of God.
Forgotten Era of Female Ritual Healing
One of the most inspiring (and historically misunderstood) topics in the book is female ritual healing. In the 1800s, women were recognized healers who routinely performed anointings and blessed the sick. Joseph Smith explicitly stated this was entirely appropriate and a manifestation of God’s power.
Stapley warns against the trap of “presentism”—the mistake of looking at history through the lens of modern definitions. Today, healing is classified as a priesthood ordinance, leading some to falsely assume that early women held ecclesiastical priesthood offices.
Interestingly, the modern narrative shifted in a subtle but revolutionary 2014 General Conference sermon by Elder Dallin H. Oaks. Elder Oaks redefined the conversation by stating that because there is only one power of God, women who participate in the work of the church are wielding the authority of the priesthood in their callings, a massive linguistic and theological shift from previous decades.
Lost Temple Rituals: Baptisms for Health and Temple Healers
Modern LDS temple practices are highly streamlined, but they used to be vastly more diverse. Joseph Smith originally envisioned the temple as a place for literal physical healing.
Baptisms for Health: By the 1880s, baptisms for health were the single most common living ritual performed in temples. If you were feeling sick, you could make a pilgrimage to the temple to be baptized for your health.
Temple Healers: Pioneer temples featured dedicated temple healers. For example, Lucy Bigelow Young (one of Brigham Young’s wives) received the sick—sometimes brought in on beds—and healed them inside the St. George Temple.
These practices were ultimately discontinued in the 1920s under President Heber J. Grant, who reformed and shortened the liturgy to focus exclusively on salvific rituals.
From “Cunning Folk” to Alternative Medicine
Addressing the controversial topic of early Mormon “magic,” Stapley prefers the historical European term “cunning folk traditions.“ Cunning folk were local seers who found lost items, healed the sick, and battled witches.
As belief in witches faded during the Enlightenment, cunning folk transitioned into botanical and herbal healers. Because Mormonism embraces an “open heaven” and the miraculous, early Saints were receptive to both priesthood blessings and these alternative cures. Stapley notes that this cultural DNA persists today; the modern LDS openness to complementary and alternative medicine (like energy healing or essential oils) functions similarly to the cunning folk traditions of the past.
Evolution of Baby Blessings
Unlike baptism, the baby blessing is not found in the Book of Mormon. In the early church, blessings often occurred on the 8th day after birth, evocative of the Old Testament tradition of circumcision.
In early Mormon Missouri (Zion), the blessing was deeply communal: babies received the blessing so their names could be inscribed in the “book of remembrance” to secure a community inheritance. By the 20th century, the ritual’s focus became intensely entangled with fatherhood. In an effort to make fathers feel the power of their duty, modern church policy even evolved to allow fathers without temple recommends to stand in the blessing circle, hoping the experience might quicken them to repentance.
Sealings Guarantee Heaven? Debate on “Perseverance”
How permanent is a temple sealing? In early Mormonism, theology leaned heavily into “perseverance,” a concept akin to Calvinism, suggesting that once a family is sealed, they are permanently locked into the “network of heaven”. Early Saints believed that even if a child or spouse backslid into sin, their place in heaven remained, though they might have to suffer for their sins before being redeemed.
However, faced with the reality of profound human wickedness (such as the actions of John D. Lee, Brigham Young’s adopted son who participated in a mass murder), church leaders realized a free pass to heaven couldn’t exist. Today, LDS teachings lean far closer to Arminianism and Protestant ideals, viewing the celestial kingdom as a conditional reward based on individual faithfulness rather than an unbreakable guarantee.
Dr. Stapley’s framework ultimately allows believers and historians alike to explore Mormonism’s rich, dynamic past on its own terms, free from the constraints of present-day politics.
Don’t miss our other discussions with Jonathan. https://gospeltangents.com/people/jonathan_stapley
Copyright © 2026
Gospel Tangents
All Rights Reserved
1 hr 31 min

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