Mormon History Podcast – Gospel Tangents – Mormon History Podcast

There is a seismic shift on the priesthood ban in Mormon fundamentalism. It’s happening within independent Mormon group. Justin Francom shares the inside story of how the independent fundamentalist group in Missouri recently made a historic decision to officially abandon the racial priesthood ban and open their temple to people of all racial backgrounds.

Don’t miss our other conversations on Mormon fundamentalism: https://gospeltangents.com/denominations/fundamentalim/

Copyright © 2026

Gospel Tangents

All Rights Reserved

Award-winning authors

Don’t miss our other conversations on Mormon fundamentalism: https://gospeltangents.com/denominations/fundamentalim/

Copyright © 2026

Gospel Tangents

All Rights Reserved

Award-winning authors

Ben Schilaty, a former BYU Honor Code administrator, is a social work professor and author who discusses his life as a gay Latter-day Saint. He details his professional background, and his current work with the Gather Conference. Schilaty shares his personal faith journey, explaining how he reconciles his sexual orientation with his commitment to the Church through prayer and personal revelation. He advocates for radical empathy and honoring the individual agency of LGBTQ members, whether they choose to stay in or leave the faith. Throughout the conversation, he emphasizes the importance of sincere listening and building supportive communities where diverse experiences are validated.

Don’t miss our other LDS Faith Journeys: https://gospeltangents.com/tag/lds-faith-journeys/

Ben Schilaty is a professor of social work at Utah Valley University and author of A Walk in My Shoes. He shared a deeply personal look at his life as a gay Latter-day Saint. Schilaty, who humorously describes himself as “fame-ish” due to the parasocial relationships readers and listeners have formed with him, offers a unique perspective on the intersection of faith, identity, and belonging.

Ben describes his internal journey in three distinct phases. In his 20s, he felt “broken” and believed he needed to be “fixed” to fit the mold of a traditional Latter-day Saint marriage. In his early 30s, the pendulum swung, and he felt that if he couldn’t change, perhaps the Church had to change. Today, he focuses on “living in what is,” a practice of accepting reality as it is to find health and happiness.

A pivotal moment in this journey occurred when Ben nearly left the Church after a painful heartbreak. Despite his parents’ full support and their promise to honor his agency regardless of his choice, a prayerful encounter with Matthew 26 changed his path. Reflecting on Christ’s prayer in Gethsemane, Ben felt a “clear and very annoying prompting” that his “cup” was to live his life within the teachings of the Church—a choice that transformed his religious practice from a burden into something life-giving.

Providing a rare look into his four years as an Honor Code administrator at BYU, Ben dispels common myths about the office. While many assume the office is preoccupied with “morality” or LGBTQ+ issues, Ben notes that same-sex romantic behavior reports were uncommon, occurring only about ten times a year. Instead, the vast majority of his work involved academic dishonesty, plagiarism, and timecard theft.

Ben is a co-founder of the Gather conference, a Christ-centered support system for LGBTQ+ Latter-day Saints and their allies. He describes it as a “middle space” compared to other organizations like Affirmation or Northstar. Gather serves a diverse group—about 80-90% of whom are active in the Church—including those in same-sex marriages, those choosing celibacy, and parents or leaders seeking to understand their loved ones better.

A major theme of the discussion was radical acceptance and honoring the agency of others. Ben emphasizes that:

Ben’s final invitation to the audience is simple: instead of just reading his book or listening to his podcast, invite the LGBTQ+ people in your own life to tell you their stories.

What do you think of Ben’s experience as an active, gay Latter-day Saint?

0:00 Introduction/Background
1:58 Faith and Identity
3:11 Turning Point and Parental Support
6:36 Supporting LGBTQ Members Who Leave
14:01 BYU Honor Code Office
16:11 Religious Policy and Universal Standards
20:00 Celestial Kingdom Questions and Future Doctrine
34:28 Elder Clark Gilbert’s Call
39:10 Radical Acceptance and Social Work Philosophy
41:07 Gather Conference and Support Organizations
46:36 Accusations of Complicity
49:48 Social Work Training and Church History
54:22 Listening to Individual Stories

Check out LDS Faith Journeys website.

Justin Francom thinks every Mormon Church is the true church. He shares a vision of surprisingly inclusive Mormonism, challenging the rigid boundaries and schisms that usually divide the various Latter-day Saint factions.

Don’t miss our other conversations on Mormon fundamentalism: https://gospeltangents.com/denominations/fundamentalim/

Copyright © 2026

Gospel Tangents

All Rights Reserved

Award-winning authors

Francom holds a radically universalist view of the priesthood, believing that the mainstream LDS Church, the AUB, the FLDS, Centennial Park, and the Peterson Group all possess valid priesthood authority. When asked if these groups are apostate, he frankly notes that “we’re all apostate to a certain degree.” He asserts that no single church is perfectly true or completely false; rather, God respects human agency and expects mortals to make mistakes as they figure things out.

Drawing on his deep love for both American and South Korean cultures, Francom argues that God loves diversity and that heaven itself will feature a rich diversity of cultures. Therefore, different worship styles and branches of Mormonism should be able to coexist as long as they are coming unto Christ.

Francom also elaborates on the independent fundamentalist community out in Missouri. They hold regular Sunday meetings, separating for Priesthood instruction and coming together for a unified Sacrament meeting. In a beautiful display of peace, they even hold shared meetings on fifth Sundays with the local mainstream LDS congregation and other fundamentalist factions. To avoid theological conflict, they simply omit the physical sacrament ordinance during these shared gatherings.

The community operates strictly on a voluntary basis, with no mandated tithing, even when it comes to funding and maintaining their newly built temple. To prevent the rise of authoritarian “kings” or a “one man” leader, the temple council is a rotating body where members serve two-year terms before being replaced by a priesthood vote. Remarkably, the temple is open to individuals from other Mormon branches—including mainstream LDS members—who wish to experience the original 1840s endowment, provided they are there for sincere religious reasons rather than just “temple tourism.”

Recognizing that many Latter-day Saints are losing their faith over modern policy issues and discarding their testimonies entirely, Francom helped launch a brand-new initiative: Mormon Legacy Ministries (MLM).

Francom observed that the mainstream LDS Church excels at missionary work and discipling members, while fundamentalists have successfully preserved early doctrines like plural marriage and the Adam-God theory. MLM seeks to bring the best of both worlds together. Described as an “ecumenical Mormon church,” MLM serves as a floating organization or waypoint for independent Mormons.

Currently operating primarily over Zoom with Joshua Erickson serving as bishop, MLM is designed as a safe haven where individuals don’t have to swear loyalty to “one man” or strict dogmas. It bridges the gap for those who feel the mainstream LDS Church is no longer working for them, but who still want to hold onto core restoration truths without the intense leap of joining an insular fundamentalist compound.

Francom’s vision is a refreshing departure from the fighting that usually defines Mormon history. And the paradigm shifts don’t stop there. In the next episode, Francom plans to discuss overturning the fundamentalist priesthood ban on Black members, boldly stating that Brigham Young simply made a mistake.

Don’t miss our other conversations on Mormon fundamentalism: https://gospeltangents.com/denominations/fundamentalim/

Copyright © 2026

Gospel Tangents

All Rights Reserved

Award-winning authors

I sat down with Justin Francom for a deep dive into his “not group,” a unique, largely misunderstood faction of Mormon fundamentalism. Francom sheds light on a fiercely independent community of believers who have built their own temple and completely rejected traditional authoritarian hierarchies.

Don’t miss our other conversations on Mormon fundamentalism: https://gospeltangents.com/denominations/fundamentalim/

Copyright © 2026

Gospel Tangents

All Rights Reserved

Award-winning authors

At the heart of this Missouri movement is a complete rejection of the “One Man” doctrine—the belief that a single leader holds all the keys and dictates the faith. Most fundamentalist groups trace their priesthood to an 1886 meeting with John Taylor, but Francom notes that true authority actually stems from the ordinance of the Second Anointing. Joseph Musser, a prominent early fundamentalist, realized that this specific ordinance—not a formal church structure—was the key to preserving the priesthood.

The Second Anointing confers the “fullness of the priesthood,” allowing individuals to perform sealings. According to Francom’s reading of Section 132 of the Doctrine and Covenants, this power is conferred strictly “one at a time.” Historically, early temple presidents even coordinated between the St. George and Logan temples to ensure these ordinances were performed sequentially, never simultaneously, to maintain this sacred symbolism.

How did this specific priesthood authority reach the independent believers in Missouri? The lineage traces back to Joe Thompson, a former council member of the Apostolic United Brethren (AUB.) Thompson strongly believed in perpetuating the fullness of the priesthood and building temples, which clashed with the leadership style of Owen Allred, who wanted to consolidate power and close temples.

After being excommunicated from the AUB under allegedly spurious charges, Thompson relocated to Arizona, continuing to administer these ordinances to aligned families. Decades later, a man named Robert LeFever brought this “Thompsonite” priesthood authority from Arizona to a group of independent families gathering in Missouri.

The community in Missouri playfully refers to itself as a “not-group” made up of “spiritually libertarians.” They are a hodgepodge of fundamentalist refugees—exiles from the AUB, Centennial Park, and even former mainstream LDS converts. Having witnessed the rampant abuse of centralized power in other sects, they prefer to operate as independent families working together without a singular boss.

Driven by a 40-year-old prophetic vision, these independent families successfully built and dedicated a beautiful temple in Missouri, complete with a stunning echoing star dome in the Celestial room. Their temple work truly flourished once LeFever arrived to administer the fullness of the priesthood.

As a computer scientist, Francom beautifully summarizes this decentralized theology by comparing church organization to software. He views worship culture as the “application layer” of faith. Just as the various branches of the Eastern Orthodox Church operate independently with different styles but maintain the same core authority, Mormon factions can worship differently too.

Whether a congregation allows spontaneous scripture commentary, uses a tea kettle for the sacrament, or practices loud Pentecostal-style worship, Francom believes it is all perfectly valid—as long as the core priesthood ordinances remain pure and intact. Ultimately, this community proves that for some, faith isn’t about swearing allegiance to one man, but rather preserving sacred ordinances and working together as equals.

What are your thoughts about this “not group?” Have you been to the Missouri Temple?

Don’t miss our other conversations on Mormon fundamentalism: https://gospeltangents.com/denominations/fundamentalim/

Copyright © 2026

Gospel Tangents

All Rights Reserved

Award-winning authors

I sat down with Justin Francom, an independent Mormon fundamentalist living in Missouri, to discuss his journey from a traditional LDS background to an Independent Mormon fundamentalist. Francom’s story is a compelling look at how his search for deeper doctrine can lead a “Jack Mormon” turned missionary into the world of independent fundamentalist.

Rick B (host of Gospel Tangents and LDS Faith Journeys) interviews Josh Gehly, an Evangelist for The Church of Jesus Christ (historically known as the Bickertonites), during Josh’s visit to Salt Lake City. Josh reveals that The Church of Jesus Christ has a small but growing domestic presence, including a mission in Salt Lake City. They are meeting Feb 7 near the airport at Holiday Inn East. Sunday morning at 10 am they will meets in the “Ninja Gym” in Sandy. The church reports significant international growth, particularly in Africa, while noting that the domestic church maintains a close-knit, “lowarchy” structure where leaders are servants rather than prophets. The conversation highlights significant theological divergences between the “Bickertonite” church and the mainstream LDS Church. Josh clarifies that his church is strictly anti-polygamy, viewing the practice as a sin, though they welcome members with varying historical views on whether Joseph Smith actually practiced it. They also reject the LDS concepts of eternal marriage, becoming gods (exaltation), and a Heavenly Mother, adhering instead to a more traditional view of the Godhead and the Bible/Book of Mormon. However, they are a “charismatic” faith, believing in and practicing spiritual gifts such as speaking in tongues, visions, and miracles. Throughout the Q&A with the live audience, the speakers address sensitive topics including LGBTQ+ issues—which Josh’s church views as sinful—and the challenges of maintaining faith in a secular world. Despite these differences, the dialogue emphasizes mutual respect, the centrality of Jesus Christ, and the value of interfaith friendship.

For decades, scholars have debated where the Book of Mormon took place. Could it be on the Baja Peninsula? Or in the narrow necks of Central America, or the heartland of the United States? But what if the internal map of the text—where ‘east’ is truly east and seeds from Jerusalem flourish—points to a location largely ignored by archaeologists? In this comprehensive interview, David Rosenvall details how a simple question from his father, a university geography professor, led to a decade of research identifying the Baja Peninsula as the most plausible setting for Lehi’s journey. Rosenvall challenges the dominant theories by distinguishing between ‘human geography’—culture that moves with people—and ‘physical geography,’ the immovable features of land, climate, and mineral deposits that he claims uniquely match the Baja landscape.

Check out our other conversations on DNA & Book of Mormon: https://gospeltangents.com/lds_theology/dna-book-of-mormon/

0:00 Hofmann Explosion

We’re talking about where faith & DNA collide. This is a throwback episode from my 2018 interview with Dr Simon Southerton. We’ll discuss how this former LDS bishop got excommunicated over his writings about DNA problems with the Book of Mormon and his book “Losing a Lost Tribe.” Check out our conversation…

0:00 Faith & DNA Collision Result in Excommunication

Check out our other conversations on DNA & Book of Mormon: https://gospeltangents.com/lds_theology/dna-book-of-mormon/

What happens when a molecular geneticist, serving as a faithful LDS Bishop, encounters scientific data that directly contradicts the keystone of his religion? I’m excited to release the full video of our 2018 interview with Australian researcher Dr. Simon Southerton. A former Senior Research Scientist with the CSIRO (Commonwealth Scientific and Industrial Research Organization), Dr. Southerton’s journey from devout leader to vocal critic is one of the most compelling narratives in the world of Mormon studies.

Dr. Southerton utilizes his expertise in population genetics to tackle apologetic theories regarding the Book of Mormon, offering a hard-hitting look at DNA, history, and the cost of following his conscience.

Dr. Southerton’s transition didn’t begin with DNA, but with the Flood. While serving as a bishop, he read an Ensign article classifying those who believe in a “local flood” (rather than a global catastrophe 4,500 years ago) as effectively denying the faith. Knowing that a global flood is scientifically impossible due to geological and genetic evidence, he felt alienated.

This prompted him to research Native American DNA, hoping to find evidence supporting the Book of Mormon. Instead, he found that 99% of Native American markers are derived from Asia, with the remainder being post-Columbus European or African admixture. The realization hit him during a family night:

“We chose Book of Mormon stories… by the end of that song I was pretty deeply upset… I remember thinking at the time I’m never going to sing that song again with my children because it’s wrong.”

A major portion of the interview addresses the apologetic argument—promoted by scholars like Ugo Perego—that Lehi’s party was so small their DNA “vanished” or was swamped by existing populations.

Southerton rejects this as inconsistent with the text. He argues that the Book of Mormon describes massive civilizations and rapid population growth, not a small family that immediately disappeared into a dominant culture. He notes that whole-genome sequencing of ancient Mayans consistently shows Asian ancestry, not Middle Eastern.

Dr. Southerton explains why DNA can track ancient migrations if they actually occurred. He points to the Lemba tribe in Africa, who claimed Jewish ancestry. Genetic testing revealed they carried the “Cohen Haplotype,” a specific Semitic Y-chromosome marker, vindicating their oral history.

Conversely, he takes aim at the theories of Rodney Meldrum, whom he characterizes as a “snake oil salesman”. Meldrum argues the “X Lineage” in North America is evidence of Middle Eastern migration. Southerton clarifies that the X lineage is an ancient marker arriving roughly 15,000 years ago—long before the Nephites—and is distantly related to Middle Eastern markers, splitting off 30,000 years ago.

Apologists often argue that since we can’t find Viking DNA in the Americas (despite knowing they were there), we shouldn’t expect to find Nephite DNA. Southerton dismisses this parallel. He argues that Vikings were raiders and traders who didn’t establish massive, centuries-long civilizations comparable to the Nephites and Lamanites described in the scriptures.

Finally, Dr. Southerton opens up about the “draconian” process of his excommunication. While the Church charged him with “inappropriate relationships” during a separation from his wife, Southerton asserts the true motivation was his book, Losing a Lost Tribe. He describes the disciplinary council as a “15th-century” process where the outcome is decided before the accused enters the room.

Today, Southerton identifies as agnostic, finding peace outside of organized religion. He emphasizes that one does not need the Church to be a “delightful, decent, good human being.”

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Gospel Tangents

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In the final segment, the Ericksons tackle the practical side of raising kids in polygamy. They discuss whether they expect their kids to be polygamists, the role of their ministry, and the lingering trauma that keeps many fundamentalist groups secretive. Sign up for this secret episode at https://gospeltangents.com/newsletter

Don’t miss our other conversations on Mormon fundamentalism: https://gospeltangents.com/denominations/fundamentalim/