Navigating Major Programmes

Riccardo Cosentino takes an ongoing LinkedIn debate with Ian Heptinstall live in this episode of Navigating Major Programmes for a fascinating conversation with one common goal: to elevate major programmes. The pair discuss the use of reference class forecasting, the predominance of strategic misrepresentation, and optimism bias during project estimation—both drawing on their practical and academic experiences to substantiate their points.

“One of my concerns, if we think the problem with projects is that our estimates are too light and the answer is to increase the estimates, is that it is a vicious spiral. That just means expected costs will go up and up and up over time. If we separate the three elements of time, and think maybe we missed the target, not because the target was impossible, but our methods of execution were such that it made it very hard to achieve the target. That actually gives us an opening for a virtuous cycle because there are, so called, black swans that show that the same estimates are achievable and can be done reliably. ” –   Ian Heptinstall  

Ian Heptinstall combines over 35 years of industry experience with academic expertise, to bring a unique perspective to CapEx & Construction Project Management and Procurement & Supply Chain. As an Associate Professor at the University of Birmingham, Ian focuses on practical methodologies like Theory of Constraints (TOC), critical chain, and collaborative procurement, which he advocates for practically improving performance in various industries.

Key Takeaways:

• The importance of focusing on execution and preparation over quality of estimations  
• Tipping the Iron Law on its head with collaborative contracting, IPD and alliance contracting  
• Reference class forecasting in project management: advantages and limitations
• Impact of strategic misrepresentation and optimism bias; the political influence on project estimates and management 

If you enjoyed this episode, make sure and give us a five star rating and leave us a review on iTunes, Podcast Addict, Podchaser or Castbox.

The conversation doesn’t stop here—connect and converse with our LinkedIn community: 

• Follow Ian Heptinstall on LinkedIn
• Follow Navigating Major Programmes on LinkedIn
• Follow Riccardo Cosentino on LinkedIn
• Read Riccardo’s latest at wwww.riccardocosentino.com

Transcript:

Riccardo Cosentino  0:05  

You're listening to Navigating Major Programmes, a podcast that aims to elevate the conversations happening in the infrastructure industry and inspire you to have a more efficient approach within it. I'm your host, Riccardo Cosentino. I bring over 20 years of Major Programme Management experience. Most recently, I graduated from Oxford University Saïd Business School, which shook my belief when it comes to navigating major programmes. Now it's time to shake yours. Join me in each episode as I press the industry experts about the complexity of Major Programme Management, emerging digital trends and the critical leadership required to approach these multibillion-dollar projects. Let's see where the conversation takes us.  

Riccardo Cosentino  0:53  

Hello, everyone, and welcome to a new episode of Navigating Major Programmes. I'm here today with Ian Heptinstall, who is Associate Professor in Programme and Project Management at the University of Birmingham and he's joining me today from Birmingham, I assume. How are you doing, Ian?  

Ian Heptinstall  1:09  

Hi, Riccardo. Not quite Birmingham, I live in Cheshire. So I'm closer to Manchester or Liverpool than Birmingham.  

Riccardo Cosentino  1:15  

Okay.  

Ian Heptinstall  1:16  

But fortunately, most of my students aren't at Birmingham either, they're all over the world.

Riccardo Cosentino  1:21  

And I mean, maybe just for the audience, you and I connected a few times on LinkedIn exchanging views, exchanging comments on various posts on various topics. And so I think we finally, I think you finally prompted that we could have a more productive conversation on the podcast rather than on comments on LinkedIn, which is always helpful, but probably not the most conducive way of having a conversation. And so why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself?  

Ian Heptinstall  1:48  

Exactly, thank you, Riccardo. I am Ian Heptinstall. I'm a late career academic, I've been working in academia at the University of Birmingham now for five years, primarily in a teaching role, although I've started to add some research elements to that. And I currently teach on an MSc program that's delivered to part-time students who study by distance learning. So my students are working in project organizations on projects all around the world. And they want to add to that master's level insight. And as we were chatting too before, our focus in the UK is that at master's level, the key component of that is critical thinking, critical analysis, critical thinking, understanding the evidence behind ideas. But before I joined academia, I had 35 years or so in practical experience. I qualified as an engineer. I started working in the chemical industry in the mid-80s, mostly in project-related roles, either managing small projects or manufacturing facilities, and managing larger projects, being a technical expert, often supporting projects. That was back in the days when project owners had a self-delivery capability, so they had their own engineering organizations. Interestingly, in the 90s, the company I worked for was known as ICI, which doesn't really exist anymore. But it was the third largest chemical company in the world, so-called bellwether of the U.K. business environment and the U.K. stock market. But during the 90s, it was one of the many organizations that started to sort of what Professor Stuart Reid calls "hollowing out," that in-house capability of employees was reduced with a view to what we can but that service in as and when we needed it. And actually, in the late 90s and early 2000s, client organizations could buy that in because the contractors and consultancies had ex-employees there who had got that 20 years of experience of how to think like a project owner and what impact that had on managing the project through its own lifecycle. So that gave me the chance to see projects from the owner's perspective and a supplier's perspective. Later in the 90s, I was involved in one of the first collaborative contracted project alliances in the U.K. that wasn't in the oil and gas industry. And now, I don't understand why all project procurement is not done collaboratively using project alliances. But that's not the topic for tonight's discussion.

Riccardo Cosentino  5:08  

Yeah, that's another podcast. That's another long podcast. You and I exchanged on this a few times.  

Ian Heptinstall  5:14  

Yeah, definitely.  

Riccardo Cosentino  5:17  

So what are we talking about today, then?

Ian Heptinstall  5:20  

We, as you said, we had some chats on LinkedIn about the ideas of the use of reference class forecasting, the predominance of strategic misrepresentation, optimism bias during project estimation, all wrapped up into what I've started calling the optimistic estimate h...

In this week’s episode, Riccardo Cosentino and guest co-host, Corail Bourrelier Fabiani, sit down with fellow alumnus Brandon de León to discuss his Oxford Saïd Business School dissertation on electric aviation.

Brandon emphasizes the importance of public perception in adopting new technologies and explores the potential of electric aviation to transform urban mobility. The discussion covers technical advancements, regulatory challenges, and the necessary societal embrace for successful integration of electric aircraft into daily transportation. Brandon's insights highlight the intersection of technology, society, and the future of urban air mobility.

“But what really validated my research was that social acceptance came up as an interesting issue already, before the first vehicle flies. And like I mentioned before, the next plans are also around big events, the World Expo in Osaka. Next year in 2025, this was to be flights. And in 2028 in Los Angeles for the Olympics there. Other companies from the US are also planning to fly. So yeah, social acceptance is already showing itself as a key risk.” – Brandon de León 

Key Takeaways:

• Defining the pre-commercialization of electric aviation
• The critical role of societal acceptance in the adoption of electric aviation
• The potential impact of electric aviation on urban infrastructure
• Insights into the interplay of technological advancements and regulatory frameworks
• Distributed and decentralized mega projects

If you enjoyed this episode, make sure and give us a five star rating and leave us a review on iTunes, Podcast Addict, Podchaser or Castbox.

The conversation doesn’t stop here—connect and converse with our LinkedIn community: 

• Follow Brandon de León on LinkedIn
• Follow Corail Bourrelier Fabiani on LinkedIn
• Follow Riccardo Cosentino on LinkedIn
• Follow Navigating Major Programmes on LinkedIn
• Read Riccardo’s latest at wwww.riccardocosentino.com

Transcript:

Riccardo Cosentino  0:05  

You're listening to Navigating Major Programmes, a podcast that aims to elevate the conversations happening in the infrastructure industry and inspire you to have a more efficient approach within it. I'm your host, Riccardo Cosentino. I bring over 20 years of Major Programme Management experience. Most recently, I graduated from Oxford University Saïd Business School, which shook my belief when it comes to navigating major programmes. Now it's time to shake yours. Join me in each episode as I press the industry experts about the complexity of Major Programme Management, emerging digital trends and the critical leadership required to approach these multibillion-dollar projects. Let's see where the conversation takes us.

Riccardo Cosentino  0:54  

Hello, everyone. Welcome to a new episode of Navigating Major Programmes. I'm here today with my co-host, Corail, and we have a special guest, a good old friend of ours joining us today on the podcast. I will pass the mic to Corail who's gonna co-host the podcast today and help me asking questions to this really great guest that has agreed to join us today. How are you doing, Corail?

Corail  1:19  

Hi, Riccardo, I'm doing really good. Thank you for having me co-hosting this great episode. And I'm excited to talk to Brandon. So maybe a little bit of background, we met doing a major programme management master in Oxford. And during that two years of our lives we met Brandon who was a superstar in our cohort because at the time, he was working for Tesla. And he was talking to us about this really exciting industry and how he's been part of the founders of Tesla. And he's been part of the team that made it a great company that we know today or the big adventure. And then he moved on to work for Rizwan and developing this into a great new enterprise that goes beyond Tesla by working on all different types of trucks and other things that I don't know enough about. But so I'm really excited to hear the story of Brandon. And I think Brandon, it would be great to start with you maybe introducing yourself telling us a little bit about how you ended up in the electric car industry and what drove you to that really expanding field. And yeah, to know a bit more about your background.  

Brandon de León  2:37  

Wow, what an introduction. Thank you guys so much for having me here on the podcast with you. It's been incredible to see what you guys have produced after the Master's course and hard to follow what you shared Corail. But I think, generally speaking, it's been an amazing learning experience. The Oxford Masters in Major Program Management, learned a lot from you guys, as well as the content. So happy to be here and share a little bit of what I've been working on and some of my background. It's been about 12 years since I've been in the electric car space, but maybe just a step back and give a little personal context about how I even ended up in that. I, my voice betrays me, I'm from the States originally, even though I'm coming to you from Holland today, I'm living in Rotterdam and working in Amsterdam. I grew up on the east coast of the U.S. mainly in Georgia in Florida. And then that's where I connected with Tesla. And what brought me down to Florida originally was my pursuit of International Business Studies. I wanted to study that because I had grown up hearing about how my parents met in Germany, in the army, and so early on, I was ingrained with these ideas of a world beyond the bubble that I lived in. So even though I grew up in small town, Georgia, I knew that I wanted to go and at least traveled to these places maybe even work in these places, if that were possible. And so in high school, when I discovered international business classes, I couldn't get enough. I also learned in those classes that there's a lot of ways society progresses, and probably the fastest mechanism to make that happen is commerce. So you know, regulation and government takes a long time. Nonprofits are phenomenal. But also some of them have limited impact. So it wasn't really clear what the best path was. But having parents that had done service for the country, as it were, and then pursued their careers and more local service type of roles and social worker and studying pre-med and things like that, I knew that I wanted to find a way to make the world a better place in my own little way. Right? So international business was my chosen vessel that brought me to Miami to study undergrad. And then in university there I had a chance to actually work in a company that I had admired for what I would consider a great engineering design and that was BMW their local retailer in the south Florida area. I persuaded them to let me take an entry level job that they didn't have at the time. But I was really eager to get out of the department store I was working at, and to go work in the company that I admired so much down the street and regularly saw the employees from that office. And so thanks to some persuasion and friendliness on their side, I was able to take a very administrative basic role. And I spent two years with BMW, but I realized that 18, 19, 20, there wasn't a lot of career options for someone that young, in the automotive retail space, at least not the traditional automotive, even wi...

In this episode of Navigating Major Programmes, Riccardo Cosentino sits down with fellow Oxford’s Saïd Business School alumnus, Shawn Modar, to discuss why mega projects go wrong and what can be done contractually to avoid failure. The pair delve into the role psychological contracts play in the Iron Triangle. Plus, Shawn shares his Oxford dissertation findings, including a prenuptial agreement analogy you don’t want to miss. 

“One of the interesting realizations that I had during this process is: Why would somebody intentionally not comply with their contract, knowing all those legal risks that are out there? And what I realized is when they're not complying with that written contract, they're actually complying with their psychological contract.” –  Shawn Modar

Shawn Modar has more than 23 years of experience in the engineering and construction industry, with the majority of that time being focused on construction claim analysis and dispute resolution. His primary focus is assisting clients in their efforts to substantiate or defend against claims for the recovery of time and additional costs, to avoid formal disputes, and to make informed decisions that result in equitable resolutions. 

Key Takeaways:

• The risk of acting like something you’re not: Relational contracts versus traditional contracts
• The truth behind intentional noncompliance in megaprojects
• The benefits and downfalls of psychological contracts

If you enjoyed this episode, make sure and give us a five star rating and leave us a review on iTunes, Podcast Addict, Podchaser or Castbox.

The conversation doesn’t stop here—connect and converse with our community via LinkedIn:

• Follow Shawn Modar on LinkedIn
• Follow Navigating Major Programmes on LinkedIn
• Follow Riccardo Cosentino on LinkedIn
• Read Riccardo’s latest at wwww.riccardocosentino.com

Music: "A New Tomorrow" by Chordial Music. Licensed through PremiumBeat.

Are LLMs stochastic parrots or reflection of our own intelligence? In this episode of Navigating Major Programmes, Riccardo Cosentino sits down with Lawrence Rowland for an extremely candid conversation surrounding the adoption of artificial intelligence, in major programmes and beyond. AI skeptics and AI enthusiasts alike, this episode was recorded for you.

“None of us are keeping up, none of us know what the hell is going on. So, if you can kind of just relax and enjoy it happening, you will also help everyone else so much more. Enjoy it. And enjoy what [AI] is telling us about us.”  –Lawrence Rowland

Lawrence began as an engineer on large capital projects with WSP and Motts, before moving onto Bechtel and Booz Allen. He spent ten years in project and portfolio management with CPC and Pcubed, before transitioning to data analytics and AI for projects, working originally for Projecting Success, and now for React AI. He now helps project services firms find relevant immediate AI applications for their business.

Key Takeaways:

• Large Language Model (LLM) 101
• What is an AI agent? What is the principal-agent problem (PAP)?
• What LLMs can teach you about your own thinking patterns
• The future of Google Gemini and AI adoption in general
• The weaknesses of the generative AI of today

Mentioned Links:

• A Path Towards Autonomous Machine Intelligence
• Principal Agent Problem
• Applied Category Theory
• Wisdom of Crowds
• State Space Models and Mamba
• Demis Hassabis and the return of alpha zero type tree search and RL

If you enjoyed this episode, make sure and give us a five star rating and leave us a review on iTunes, Podcast Addict, Podchaser or Castbox.

The conversation doesn’t stop here—connect and converse with our LinkedIn community: 

• Follow Navigating Major Programmes on LinkedIn
• Follow Riccardo Cosentino on LinkedIn
• Read Riccardo’s latest at wwww.riccardocosentino.com

Music: "A New Tomorrow" by Chordial Music. Licensed through PremiumBeat.

In this episode of Navigating Major Programmes, Riccardo sits down with Daniel Armanios, BT Professor of Major Programme Management and Chair of Major Programme Management at University of Oxford, Saïd Business School. The pair discuss the importance of research, the type of valuable research and the post evaluation of major programmes.

"And so a second very cool question would be where do we want resilience in a major programme? I mean, obviously you want it within the program but do you want it in the selection process? Maybe not? Do you want it in the post validation where we don't do as well? Maybe not so maybe resilience is not great everywhere. And maybe it's really important in certain places.  I've been really thinking about this a lot because it's a really visceral fundamental point. What is it we're actually doing and trying to achieve?" – Daniel Armanios

Daniel’s research and teaching integrates civil engineering and organizational sociology to better understand how organizations coordinate to build, manage, and maintain infrastructure systems. His findings inform efforts to advance sustainable development, entrepreneurship, and innovation, while also alleviating systemic and persistent inequities within such systems.

Key Takeaways:

• The distinction of megaprojects and major programmes
• The importance of transparent assumptions and data research in major programmes
• Studying major programmes at a component level
• Where do we want resilience in major programmes?

If you enjoyed this episode, make sure and give us a five star rating and leave us a review on iTunes, Podcast Addict, Podchaser or Castbox.

The conversation doesn’t stop here—connect and converse with our LinkedIn community:

• Follow Navigating Major Programmes on LinkedIn
• Follow Riccardo on LinkedIn
• Follow Daniel Armanios on LinkedIn
• Daniel Armanios’ published work
• Read Riccardo’s latest at wwww.riccardocosentino.com

Music: "A New Tomorrow" by Chordial Music. Licensed through PremiumBeat.

In this episode of Navigating Major Programmes, Riccardo Cosentino sits down with Oomar Paurobally, a fellow Oxford alumnus and leader in hospitality megaprojects in South East Asia and Korea, to discuss his dissertation and his unique perspective on the Iron Triangle. The pair cover everything from stakeholder management and the universal complexity of major programmes to the interesting outcomes that can arise from a megaproject's royal flush.

“What we found is that the more you look at an aggregate level, when you're looking at an aggregated industry level, you find that the root causes tend to be the same. So, the same root causes we learned during our programme as areas affecting major infrastructure projects were the same that were impacting our industry, which were stakeholder management processes, product management skills in itself across portfolios; the root causes were similar. But what was really interesting insight was, so what? Now what? So we know, that's a core issue. But what does it really mean to us?” – Oomar Paurobally

After a degree in law, Oomar went to Dubai with a major project constructing a multi-billion dollar resort and waterpark. He has opened hotels, resorts and restaurants across Asia, the Middle East and Africa. Now, he has pivoted his career into real estate in the tech industry.

Key Takeaways:

• Is the hospitality industry immune to the iron law of major programmes?  
• The similarity of Iron Triangle root causes in civil infrastructure major programmes and luxury commercial megaprojects: Infrastructure stakeholder management and leadership management  
• Delays as strategy in private sector of hospitality major programmes; the sharp contrast from civil major programmes  
• Oomar’s dissertation research methodology; the successes and failures of thematic analysis and quantitative survey research
• The importance of pivoting to manage research bias  
• The royal flush in hospitality megaprojects and the interesting outcomes they can bring 

If you enjoyed this episode, make sure and give us a five star rating and leave us a review on iTunes, Podcast Addict, Podchaser or Castbox.

The conversation doesn’t stop here—connect and converse with our LinkedIn community: 

• Follow Navigating Major Programmes on LinkedIn
• Follow Riccardo Cosentino on LinkedIn
• Follow Oomar Paurobally on LinkedIn
• Read Riccardo’s latest at wwww.riccardocosentino.com

Transcript:

Riccardo Cosentino  00:05

You're listening to Navigating Major Programmes, a podcast that aims to elevate the conversations happening in the infrastructure industry and inspire you to have a more efficient approach within it. I'm your host, Riccardo Cosentino. I bring over 20 years of Major Programme Management experience. Most recently, I graduated from Oxford University Saïd Business School, which shook my belief when it comes to navigating major programmes. Now it's time to shake yours. Join me in each episode as I press the industry experts about the complexity of Major Programme Management, emerging digital trends and the critical leadership required to approach these multibillion-dollar projects. Let's see where the conversation takes us.

Riccardo Cosentino  00:51

Hello everyone and welcome back to another episode of Navigating Major Programmes. We're here today with Oomar Paurobally. How are you doing, Oomar?

Oomar Paurobally  01:02

I'm doing great Riccardo, it's great to be here.

Riccardo Cosentino  01:04

Thank you for joining me today. Really, really excited to have you on. I believe today you are calling from Singapore. Am I correct?

Oomar Paurobally  01:13

That's right. Beautiful island of Singapore.

Riccardo Cosentino  01:15

There you go. And I'm in Toronto so I think we are covering most of the time zone around the globe today. We're here today to talk about, I mean, you attended the Master in Major Program Management with me, we were in the same cohort. And today I invited you to the podcast to talk about your research, your dissertation. But maybe before we do that, that you might introduce yourself a little bit. Tell us a little bit about your background and what did you do before Oxford, what are you doing now, and things like that.

Oomar Paurobally  01:46

Thank you so much, Riccardo. Well, pleasure to be on the podcast and invest. Here I'm standing on shoulders of giants who came before me and we're on the fourth podcast. So if you ask myself, I actually did not start in life thinking I was going into major programmes. I read law and management in my very first degree. But I was tapped on the shoulder for a very interesting project, my first major programme in Dubai, which was to join the project management team building the Atlantis in Dubai. So that was approximately 15 years ago now. And that's how I joined this world in this realm. After that. I've been plodding along in the world of construction, building hotels and resorts across Asia, Middle East and Africa. The programme was a seminal point in my life and my career because I did pivot into a different industry, into the technology industry, right after looking still looking after spaces, but in a very different way.

Riccardo Cosentino  02:42

Very interesting, your background is very different from mine, I mean, you do construction, but you did a different type of construction. So I was very intrigued by your dissertation because it looks a case study that is very different from what I used to know. What I found from the dissertation for your research even though the case study is a different day, the issues are similar because upon the the level of complexity of the problems that you were looking at, is as high as any other major programmes that I looked at. So that was why I was interested in that, I was very keen to have you on because when we think of major programmes, in my circle, we always think of the major civil project is very complex and like well, tunneling, big dams and power plants. But you'll be looking at major programme from a different perspective. And so I was very, very keen to have a different perspective on the podcast.

Oomar Paurobally  03:38

Thank you so much, Riccardo. I guess first, let me start by saying obviously, the views I'll be sharing today are mine and mine alone and do not reflect any of the views and perspectives of my previous or current employers. So now that that's out of the way, let's talk about perspective. So it's very interesting, actually, I joined the programme itself, I was asking myself that question, major programme is programmes that are currently focused on major infrastructure projects (inaudible) start, whereas I was coming from a commercial lens at this project philosophy commercializing it from day one. And the added element to this was the complexity of the programmes I was managing was due to scale. So they had already scaled. So, if you looked at each individual project I was working on, they would not make up a programme. They would fall very clearly within the realms of what we define as project management, that when you start multiplying, and you start building in different countries with different stakeholders, at the same time, then the complexities became the s...

In this episode of Navigating Major Programmes, Riccardo Cosentino sits down with Sherena Hussain, lawyer, global thought leader in infrastructure and advisor to new partnership and sustainable finance models, to tackle the complex question: is private capital successful in major programmes?  

“The research and the industry and the research is beginning to align in the sense that we need to begin to do things differently. Now is the time to start to challenge the paradigm and do better.” – Sherena Hussain  

Key Takeaways:

• The role private capital in infrastructure major programmes  
• The overlaying correlation and causation of politics in private capital  
• The biases of private practitioners in determining the use of private capital  
• Delivery models, risk transfer and the tools for successful major programmes  
• Systems approach to complexity  
• The collective responsibility and impact of stakeholder management

Sherena Hussain’s Published Work

• Rethinking the role of private capital in infrastructure PPPs: the experience of Ontario, Canada
• Exploring the Success of Social Infrastructure Public Private Partnerships: The Complex Case of Bridgepoint Active Healthcare in Ontario, Canada

If you enjoyed this episode, make sure and give us a five star rating and leave us a review on iTunes, Podcast Addict, Podchaser or Castbox.

The conversation doesn’t stop here—connect and converse with our LinkedIn community: 

• Connect with Sherena Hussain on Linkedin
• Follow Navigating Major Programmes on LinkedIn
• Follow Riccardo Cosentino on LinkedIn
• Read Riccardo’s latest at wwww.riccardocosentino.com

Transcript:

Riccardo Cosentino  0:05  

You're listening to Navigating Major Programmes, a podcast that aims to elevate the conversations happening in the infrastructure industry and inspire you to have a more efficient approach within it. I'm your host, Riccardo Cosentino. I bring over 20 years of Major Programme Management experience. Most recently, I graduated from Oxford University Saïd Business School, which shook my belief when it comes to navigating major programmes. Now it's time to shake yours. Join me in each episode as I press the industry experts about the complexity of Major Programme Management, emerging digital trends and the critical leadership required to approach these multibillion-dollar projects. Let's see where the conversation takes us.

Riccardo Cosentino  0:53  

Hello, everyone. Welcome to a new episode of Navigating Major Programmes. I'm here today with Sherena Hussain. How are you doing, Sherena?

Sherena Hussain  1:01  

I'm doing well. Thanks. How are you?

Riccardo Cosentino  1:04  

I'm very good. I'm very good. I'm so glad we're on this podcast together. Thank you for agreeing to join me. I've known you for a long time. But maybe for the guests that may not have seen you on CBC or seen your work on LinkedIn, can you introduce yourself briefly?

Sherena Hussain  1:21  

Oh, wonderful. Well, thank you for that. Well, my name, as you mentioned, is Shereena. Hussein. I'm a lawyer as well as an academic. In addition to being in the infrastructure space for many years, it's so interesting that Riccardo, you and I, we go back, way back, to the Infrastructure Ontario days where I was a summer associate and I was able to work alongside some of your teams. And since then, my career has taken me in different directions. Practicing as a lawyer at McCarthy Tétrault moving into academia, including affiliations with the Schulich School of Business, and also dovetailing into a variety of different international work, including affiliations with the G7 and the G20, trying to pair private capital to sustainable infrastructure projects all around the world. And now more specifically, trying to connect different types of research to actual problems that we have in the infrastructure community, more specifically, how do we make those projects bankable but also sustainable economically as well as environmentally speaking?

Riccardo Cosentino  2:26  

Okay, very interesting. So you, obviously, our path connected in the past and having this still do because I'm also still involved with private capital. I work for AtkinsRéalis doing investments into infrastructure. I have not been able to attend your courses at Schulich. But I certainly have seen them or your affiliation with the university. I mean, today, we want to talk about, obviously, private capital, but we want to also talk about major programming in general, and the challenges that major programme bring in terms of on-time delivery, on-budget delivery, and the complexity of major programmes and the multitude of stakeholders that they involve. So it's a very, very complex ecosystem. And I think I would just want to explore with you what you've picked up over the years in terms of what is the function of private capital and how can private capital at times help and at times doesn't help major programmes?

Sherena Hussain  3:34  

Yes, and first and foremost, I'm so happy that you're having this podcast series, because often we don't talk about this enough, and really being able to step back, see how well we're doing as an industry, but also, where are the rules or the ways that we can otherwise find solutions? How do we improve or at least create a dialogue around that? And with my research, and it's actually in fact, one of the reasons why I ended up doing a dovetail into academia, was really coming to the reflection point of whether or not we can do things better. And you know, as well as I do, and most of your listeners know that there has been a considerable amount of challenges that are almost endemic to major projects and the idea that items are over budget, they're never on time and then there's fallacies on how we plan and how we execute. And you can just look for the headlines from time to time, in which case, we always end up scratching our head and asking ourself, how did this happen? And that was one of the major questions that led me to move into academia and also conduct research with a bit of a slant towards private capital, but less so from a pure financial perspective, but rather looking at the role of private capital at the intersection of law, risk, as well as how that infuses some of the planning processes. So that intersectionality is quite challenging to wrap your head around, let alone do research. What I found really telling is that in the process, being able to step away from just each project stage and each project clause or project agreement, which as a lawyer, you can appreciate that's something that matters very much to what we do. But being able to step back and look at, well, how do these items interact with one another? In the context of say, are these projects able to attract private capital? What influence does this have on how the parties behave over the duration of long-term project agreements, some instance upwards of 30 years? How does that then influence the different stakeholders outside of the agreements? And then how then does different decision-makers reflect upon t...

In this episode of Navigating Major Programmes, Riccardo Cosentino sits down with Matti Siemiatyck, Professor of Geography and Planning and Director of the Infrastructure Institute at the University of Toronto, to discuss the rise and fall of infrastructure in Ontario and answer the big question: Does the type of delivery model dictate the outcome of mega projects?

“We’ve lost track of what it means to be working collaboratively across organizations in these complex temporary organizations that are working at a huge scale with thousands of people and huge risk.” —Matti Siemiatycki, 20:42

The pair discuss the importance of data-driven debates for bettering delivery models and furthermore, the outcomes of major programmes.

Key Takeaways:

• The good, the bad, and the ugly of PPP
• The importance independent conversations about major programmes
• The danger of simplifying delivery models for complex projects
• Recognizing the delivery model’s role in the outcome
• Infrastructure leadership training and where it is lacking, looking to the UK model
• The importance of venues for open industry discussion, independent quality research and public data

"We need to try to create these spaces where we can have divergent views and we can actually discuss these points.”—Matti Siemiatycki, 33:01

Guest Bio:

Matti Siemiatycki is a Professor of Geography and Planning and Director of the Infrastructure Institute at the University of Toronto. His work focuses on delivering large-scale infrastructure projects, evidence-based infrastructure investment decisions, and the effective integration of infrastructure into the fabric of cities. His recent studies explore transit policy decisions, the value for money of public-private partnerships, the development of innovative mixed-use buildings as a form of place based infrastructure policy, and the diversity gap in the infrastructure industry workforce.

Matti Siemiatycki’s Published Work

• Public–Private Partnerships and the Design Process: Consequences for Architects and City Building
• The gendered production of infrastructure
• Public-Private Partnerships in Canada: Reflections on twenty years of practice
• Mixing Public and Private Uses in the Same Building: Opportunities and Barriers

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Transcript:

Riccardo Cosentino  0:05  

You're listening to Navigating Major Programmes, a podcast that aims to elevate the conversations happening in the infrastructure industry and inspire you to have a more efficient approach within it. I'm your host, Riccardo Cosentino. I bring over 20 years of Major Programme Management experience. Most recently, I graduated from Oxford University Saïd Business School, which shook my belief when it comes to navigating major programmes. Now it's time to shake yours. Join me in each episode as I press the industry experts about the complexity of Major Programme Management, emerging digital trends and the critical leadership required to approach these multibillion-dollar projects. Let's see where the conversation takes us.  

Riccardo Cosentino  0:53  

Hello, everyone, welcome to another episode of season two of Navigating Major Programmes. I'm here with Matti Siemiatycki who is going to introduce himself in a minute. And today we're going to talk about his latest paper and have a general discussion about the PPP model in Ontario and in Canada  more broadly and delivery models in general in our industry. How are you doing, Matti?

Matti Siemiatycki  1:16  

I'm great, Riccardo, thanks for having me. It's nice being with you.

Matti Siemiatycki  1:19  

So as I said at the top, I mean, maybe for I know you well, but maybe it's for some of our guests, could you just tell us a little bit about yourself?

Matti Siemiatycki  1:29  

Sure. I'm Matti Siemiatycki, I'm the director of The Infrastructure Institute and a professor of geography and planning at the University of Toronto. I've been studying big infrastructure projects now going on two decades, and had been at the University of Toronto since 2008. And this was a really important time to be studying infrastructure because I started studying infrastructure in around 2003, as Public-Private Partnerships were starting to really take hold in Canada and a generational wave of infrastructure started to become delivered through Public-Private Partnerships. And so through that period, at some parts of it, being on the west coast of Canada, some parts being overseas, and some parts, then returning to the University of Toronto, for most of it, I've had a pretty front row seat to the way that infrastructure is delivered, the changes that have happened, the big scaling up of investments in big projects, but also some of the challenges that have been experienced. So my work itself has been on Public-Private Partnerships on how to deliver projects on time and on budget. And most recently, I've founded and led the Infrastructure Institute where we do a lot of work looking at innovative types of partnerships, where there's deep collaboration in mixed-use buildings, for example, where a public-private sector and nonprofit may co-locate in the same building and where the definition and meaning of partnership is a true collaboration under one roof, which really stretches the definition from the infrastructure sector into housing and buildings. But the work I've done over the years then has delved deeply into how projects are delivered and some of the good, the bad and the ugly of the Public-Private Partnership model here in Canada.

Riccardo Cosentino  3:20  

Yeah, I mean, I think I think I've come across you in the past and I think you and I touched or crossed paths during the Ottawa Public Inquiry where you were part of the panel, and I actually felt, think you've led that panel for the commissioner. And I've also followed some of your past work. You're an avid researcher, great publisher of articles and articles and journals, peer-reviewed journals. And in fact, today, I think we're here to talk a little bit about your latest paper about I call it a retrospective on PPPs in Canada and specifically in Ontario. And I believe that's in the context of understanding, you know, the rise and fall of PPP in this particular jurisdiction.  

Matti Siemiatycki  4:08  

Yeah, so we've really seen a wave and you can really, you can think of it like a wave cresting on the beach, that we had a dramatic rise of Public-Private Partnership...

Thank you for tuning in for the first episode of Navigating Major Programmes’ second season. You can expect new conversations with Riccardo Cosentino and his guests bi-weekly, everywhere you listen to podcasts.

“In this podcast, I really wanted to create a platform for research-based conversation. And the reason for that is because the majority of the conferences in our industry are privately sponsored and therefore, the content is, to a certain degree, is privately controlled.” – Riccardo Cosentino

Key Takeaways:

• The importance of having a dedicated platform for researched-based conversation
• Understanding biases in industry conversation and developing critical thinking
• What to expect from upcoming conversations in Navigating Major Programmes’ second season

If you enjoyed this episode, make sure and give us a five star rating and leave us a review on iTunes, Podcast Addict, Podchaser or Castbox.

The conversation doesn’t stop here—connect and converse with our LinkedIn community: 

• Navigating Major Programmes Podcast
• Riccardo Cosentino

Transcript:

Music: "A New Tomorrow" by Chordial Music. Licensed through PremiumBeat.

In this episode of Navigating Major Programmes, Riccardo Cosentino sits down to reflect on the conversations during the first season of Navigating Major Programmes and what he’s learned about the industry because of them. Plus, Riccardo shares why he started a podcast in the first place and his final thoughts before taking a brief break ahead of an exciting season two. 

“The opportunity to sit down and interact with individuals who have spent six months researching a specific major programme topic and engaging into a debate about their findings and their conclusions has been very, very inspiring for me. To a point where all my initial concerns and fears of starting a podcast have now completely vanished and I’m really looking forward to building upon the first season of Navigating Major Programmes and bringing even more in-depth topics in season two.” —Riccardo Cosentino 

Key Takeaways: 

• The importance of being an ally for women in major programmes (listen to episodes 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5)
• Collaborative contracting as an alternative in complex programmes (listen to episodes 6, 10, 11 and 15)
• Leadership in major programmes (listen to episodes 7, 12 and 14)
• Setting the right expectation of technology in major programmes (listen to episodes 8 and 13)

If you enjoyed this episode, make sure and give us a five star rating and leave us a review on iTunes, Podcast Addict, Podchaser or Castbox.

The conversation doesn’t stop here—connect and converse with our LinkedIn community: 

• Navigating Major Programmes Podcast
• Riccardo Cosentino

Transcript:

Riccardo Cosentino  00:00

If you're listening to navigate the major programs, the podcast that aims to elevate the conversations happening in the infrastructure industry and inspire you to have a more efficient approach within it. I'm your host Riccardo Cosentino I bring over 20 years of major programme management experience. Most recently, I graduated from Oxford universities Said business school, which shook my belief when it comes to navigating major problems. Now it's time to shake yours. Join me in each episode as a press the industry experts about the complexity of major problem management, emerging digital trends and the critical leadership required to approach these multibillion dollar projects. Let's see where the conversation takes us.  

Hello, and welcome to a new episode on navigating major programs. This episode will be the final episode in Season One. And in this episode, I will try to recap the topics that we covered in the first 15 podcasts. I will try to also recap the guests that join the podcast and the themes that we covered in the 15 episodes. 

But before I go into that, I think it's important that I also tried to recap and remind ourselves why I started the podcast in the first place.  I started this podcast for two reasons. The first one was a personal reason which was wanted to overcome my fear of public speaking, I wanted to practice the skills of interacting with guests and to record myself and listen to myself and overcome this cringe that we all have in listening ourselves speaking. And it was very important to me, it was very important for my journey to always become a better leader, I really wanted to put myself out of my comfort zone.  But the second reason which is to be more addressed stick is I wanted to create a platform for individuals that don't normally have access to these type of platforms such as podcasts and blogs. The idea really started from when I was finishing my dissertation at Oxford. And I realized that I just spent six months researching a topic using very rigorous academic research methods. And most likely the now the dissertation will probably end up on my bookshelf. And I also realized that in my class, there were another 60 People who had created similar research of similar standards. And also then I realized that because I was part of cohort 12, at Oxford for the master major program management, there were approximately 700 People who had written dissertation who had research, major program topics, and most of them probably never talked about the research. So those were the two main reasons why I started the podcast. 

But as you probably realize the first five episodes of the podcast was actually a mini series called Building Bridges. And the reason I started with a mini series is because I was very scared of getting the podcast off the ground, I had a huge amount of impostor syndrome. And so together with with my personal brand coach, we decided to actually create a mini series so that it wouldn't be too daunting. It wouldn't be a full podcast, and it was going to be a bit more manageable with a limited number of episodes in a very limited topic, which was the experience of women in working a male dominated industry. However, as I was launching the miniseries, and by the way, the miniseries took me two years to launch because I recorded the first podcast in 2020. And I ended up launching it in 2023. So I should have been more than two years, it took me more than two years to launch the podcast. But when I ended up doing it, when I started recording the second and third episode, I got really galvanized and decided to bite the bullet and to actually launch the full podcast. And that's how we ended up having navigated major programs together with building bridges, women in infrastructure.  I also picked the woman infrastructure topic because I'm a big ally to women. And I think our industry needs more women. And so I felt this was a topic very close to me, and probably a very easy place to start since I was quite confident about the topic. So in building bridges, we started with Mariska Pinto and she came in talk to us about being the only woman in the room and the challenges have been in a male dominated environment at the beginning of our career. We then had Corrail Bourrelier Fabiani, who has now become a regular guest as well as co host of the podcast where she discussed the importance of allyship. Then I decided to have an old colleague of mine, Hannelie Stockenstrom, who is being a big role model for me and also represented somebody in an advanced stage of our career, and somebody that is really passionate about infrastructure. Then in episode four, we had Divya Shah joining us and talking about how labels put limits on what women can achieve and how labels are detrimental to the advancement of women. And then finally, in Episode Five, we had my ex colleague Shormila Chatterjee, that came to talk to us about gender bias and their experience with gender bias, being an engineer, managing engineers, and getting pushback from these engineers because she was a female. Overall, the biggest lesson learned for the miniseries is that ally ship is very, very important. All women described how in a male dominated environment, some sort of allyship is necessary, because there just aren't enough women at the top. So if women want to try to make at the top in a male dominated industry, they need the support of men.  

Once I concluded building bridges, women in infrastructure I launched right into navigating major programs. As I mentioned before, the podcast was meant to give a platform to some of my classmates who had done extensive research on major program topics and didn't really have a platform to present their findings. So I started with several guests. And we followed three major themes. We talked about collaborative contracts, we talked about leadership in general leadership in major programs. And then we talked about technology and technology in majo...