Now and Men

Dr Ken Harland has been involved in youth work practice and research with boys and young men in Northern Ireland for the past 35 years. During that time, he has witnessed a transition from a culture in which violence and conflict was normalised, to one of peace-building and hope. But how were ‘The Troubles’ shaped by gender inequality? What impact did and does the conflict have on young men growing up, and on ideas of masculinity? How is it possible to reach disadvantaged boys and young men and help them find their voice in this context? And are there lessons for elsewhere from the political transformation of Northern Ireland towards peace?

After being a community youth worker for 17 years, in 1996 Ken joined Ulster University and was co-founder and co-director of the ‘Centre for Young Men’s Studies’ there from 2005-2016. Since then he’s worked independently as a consultant, trainer, lecturer and researcher in youth and youth-related issues, and also works part-time as a Research Fellow and Consultant with Ulster University's longitudinal research initiative ‘Taking Boys Seriously’. In this episode, Ken talks movingly about his personal story, linking his early work experiences in the shipyards, to finding his passion in education, his relationship with his dad, and being a grandparent. 

• Follow Ken on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ken-harland-26b237b5/
• Read more of his research: https://pure.ulster.ac.uk/en/persons/ken-harland
• Check out his book, ‘Boys, Young Men and Violence: Masculinities, Education and Practice’ (2015): https://link.springer.com/book/10.1057/9781137297358 and recent journal articles...
• ‘Taking Boys Seriously: A participatory action research initiative demonstrating the transformative potential of relational education’ (2024): https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/01425692.2024.2315121
• ‘Embedding masculinities within a gender conscious relational pedagogy to transform education with boys experiencing compounded educational disadvantage’ (2024): https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/14681366.2024.2301726

We cover the following topics:

• Ken’s experience of living through The Troubles (01:14-05:22)
• The place of gender in conversations about transition away from conflict (05:22-08:45)
• How men were expected to be ‘defenders’ and ‘protectors’ (08:45-11:52)
• The dominance of the ‘cult of the hardman’ (11:52-15:34)
• Similarities and differences in masculine pressures in different contexts (15:34-18:36)
• The impact of the police and army as well as paramilitary organisations (18:36-20:17)
• Hopes for a better future despite the challenges (20:17-25:07)
• The experiences of women during The Troubles (25:07-26:59)
• What led Ken to work on masculinity issues (26:59-35:30)
• The establishment of the Centre for Young Men’s Studies in Belfast (35:30-40:59)
• Making sense of how masculinity influences young men's (and our own) lives (40:59-46:46)
• Taking Boys Seriously: The need for gender conscious relational pedagogy (46:46-48:33)
• Practical lessons from Ken’s work with boys (48:33-53:04)
• Conclusion: Moving away from a culture of violence; Challenging the notion that boys don’t talk; Social change in Northern Ireland, including around Brexit and abortion; Connections with previous episodes, including #39 with Dr Jocelyn Smith Lee on gun violence in the US (53:04-01:00:45)

Further info:

• About ‘The Troubles’ - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Troubles
• ‘Tartan army: how Belfast gang culture morphed into paramilitarism’ (Irish Times) - https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/books/tartan-army-how-belfast-gang-culture-morphed-into-paramilitarism-1.2737322
• ‘Belfast has more peace walls now than 25 years ago – removing them will be a complex challenge’ (The Conversation) - https://theconversation.com/belfast-has-more-peace-walls-now-than-25-years-ago-removing-them-will-be-a-complex-challenge-203975
• Northern Ireland Executive Office draft Strategic Framework to End Violence Against Women and Girls - https://www.executiveoffice-ni.gov.uk/topics/ending-violence-against-women-and-girls

The heavy toll of gun violence in the United States is having traumatising impacts on innumerable Black men and boys, many of whom will know one or more family members or friends who have died as a result. Yet there is widespread reluctance to consider the idea of vulnerability and victimisation among these young survivors. 

In this episode, we hear from Dr Jocelyn Smith Lee, who has herself experienced personal loss from the violence, about her work in the cities of Greensboro and Baltimore to challenge dehumanising narratives of Black men and boys and ensure that their voices and experiences are central to efforts to tackle the violence. We also learn about community initiatives helping these men and boys and their families heal from trauma and loss. 

Jocelyn is an Assistant Professor of Human Development and Family Studies at the University of North Carolina, Greensboro. She is also the founder and director of the Centering Black Voices research lab, and the founder and project lead for the visual storytelling campaign ‘In All Ways Human’, which was originally funded by a Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation Grand Challenge Award.

• Find out more about Jocelyn’s research: https://www.uncg.edu/employees/jocelyn-smith-lee/
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jocelyn-r-smith-lee-ph-d-577b6015/
• Twitter: https://twitter.com/DrJocelynSmith
• In All Ways Human campaign: https://inallwayshuman.com
• Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/inallwayshuman
• Twitter: https://twitter.com/InAllWaysHuman
• Centering Black Voices research lab: https://centeringblackvoices.com
• Twitter: https://twitter.com/CenterBLKVoices

Topics we cover:

• The prevalence of gun violence in the US and its unequal impacts (01:12-04:26)
• The social contexts for Jocelyn’s research in Baltimore, MD and Greensboro, NC (04:26-08:47)
• The impacts of trauma and loss from gun violence on Black men and boys (08:47-14:57)
• (Limited) possibilities for turning points and perceived life expectancy (14:57-19:38)
• Why we are so reluctant to talk about vulnerability and victimisation among Black men (19:38-22:19)
• The ‘In All Ways Human’ campaign that Jocelyn has created (22:19-28:30)
• Telling a different, positive story, through the life-course (28:30-30:49)
• The effects that police violence has on Black men and boys and their families (30:49-37:08)
• Services which play a more positive role in their lives (37:08-42:02)
• How we can help Black men and boys to heal from this trauma and loss (42:02-46:29)
• The impacts of the violence on women and girls (46:29-48:50)
• The disproportionate responsibility placed on Black women (48:50-50:22)
• The recent reduction in homicides in Baltimore, and achieving political change (50:22-55:05)
• Conclusion (55:05-01:01:14), including: The shocking scale of the homicides, from a young age; How masculine norms can obstruct men from talking about fear and grief; Links with episode 38 with Nate Eisenstadt on non-punitive approaches; The power of Jocelyn's message of hope.

More info:

• The killing of Freddie Gray after his arrest by Baltimore Police Department (The Guardian): https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/jul/20/freddie-gray-death-haunts-man-filmed-video-baltimore
• 'Baltimore celebrates historic 20% drop in homicides even as gun violence remains high’ (Associated Press): https://apnews.com/article/baltimore-homicides-decrease-2023-d88000d65d3916d1fbbe6352becd8881
• ‘How Baltimore invented neighborhood segregation’ (Vox): https://www.vox.com/2015/5/10/8578077/baltimore-segregation-pietila

What is 'discomfort', and how can we engage effectively with men when they display it in conversations about masculinity, gender equality and violence? How can connecting with discomfort help to change harmful attitudes and behaviours? What are the risks and challenges in embracing discomfort, and how can they be dealt with? These issues are at the core of our discussion with Dr Nate Eisenstadt, drawing on his extensive experience of facilitating and researching bystander intervention and domestic violence perpetrator programmes in the UK.

We also explore the training room as a microcosm of wider society, and how discomfort and fear are often weaponised by public figures to promote damaging, polarising responses to complex real-world problems. Drawing on his earlier research on contemporary anarchist practices, Nate reflects on the challenges and potential of community-based transformative (as opposed to punitive) approaches to ending gender-based violence.

Nate is a Senior Research Associate at the University of Bristol in the UK, in their Medical School’s Domestic Violence and Health Group, and the Co-Director of Kindling Interventions, which delivers bystander leadership programmes for violence prevention, equality and diversity.

• Find out more about Nate’s research: https://research-information.bris.ac.uk/en/persons/nathan-eisenstadt
• LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/nathan-eisenstadt/
• Kindling Interventions: https://kindling-interventions.com/
• Twitter: https://twitter.com/KindlingInterv
• LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/company/kindling-interventions/

We cover the following topics:

• The 'bystander leadership' training that Nate is delivering (01:31-05:16)
• Why he and Dr Rachel Fenton set up Kindling Interventions (05:16-09:03)
• Advantages and challenges with the bystander intervention approach (09:03-16:27)
• Different ways in which 'discomfort' can surface in this work (16:27-22:39)
• How to respond to discomfort when engaging with men and boys (22:39-30:57)
• The role of skilled facilitation (30:57-33:39)
• Facilitators’ own experiences of discomfort (33:39-37:24)
• How discomfort links to the backlash against feminism in wider society (37:24-42:46)
• Vital ingredients for impactful work with men who've perpetrated abuse (42:46-48:55)
• How this research links with Nate’s work on anarchist and anti-oppressive organising (48:55-52:06)
• Key tenets of anarchism and links with community accountability (52:06-53:58)
• Conclusion (53:58-59:54): Overlaps with Jens van Tricht's episode; the value of uncomfortable conversations; shifts in work with men who've used violence; the resonance of Nate's work with wider political polarisation; and anarchism and mutual aid.

Further reading:

• The Intervention Initiative: https://law.exeter.ac.uk/research/interventioninitiative/
• Rachel Fenton, Helen Mott et al. (2016) A review of evidence for bystander intervention to prevent sexual and domestic violence in universities (Public Health England): https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5a802686ed915d74e622cc3b/Evidence_review_bystander_intervention_to_prevent_sexual_and_domestic_violence_in_universities_11April2016.pdf
• Kelly Shaver (1970) Defensive attribution theory: https://doi.org/10.1037/h0028777
• Jonas Kaplan et al. (2016) Neural correlates of maintaining one's political beliefs in the face of counterevidence: https://doi.org/10.1038/srep39589
• Marshall B Rosenberg - Nonviolent communication: https://nonviolentcommunication.com

Now and Men is taking a break until February 2024, so in the meantime, to coincide with Veganuary and a new campaign called 'Vegan and Thriving' from the UK Vegan Society, we revisit episode 29 from June 2023, where we discussed masculinity and veganism with Dr Kadri Aavik.

Between 2016 and 2020, the number of vegans in Europe has doubled from 1.3 million to 2.6 million. More and more people are questioning the consumption of meat and dairy for ethical, environmental and health reasons. The majority are women, but a significant number of men are vegans, too – and over 30% of Europeans say they are consciously eating less meat. In this episode, we explore men’s experiences and motivations for becoming vegan and how they deal with masculine expectations about food. Veganism and vegetarianism are sometimes portrayed as ‘unmanly’ and effeminate, whilst meat-eating is often associated with strength and virility. The meat and dairy industries are also major contributors to greenhouse gas emissions – might the climate crisis and increasing recognition of the harms caused by these industries be leading to changes in the behaviours of some men?

Dr Kadri Aavik is an Associate Professor of Gender Studies at Tallinn University, Estonia. Kadri has written a book about her research in Estonia and Finland, ‘Contesting Anthropocentric Masculinities through Veganism: Lived Experiences of Vegan Men’ (Palgrave Macmillan, 2023). Research for the book was conducted as part of the project ‘Climate Sustainability in the Kitchen: Everyday Food Cultures in Transition’ (University of Helsinki, 2018-2022), funded by the Kone Foundation: https://www.helsinki.fi/en/projects/climate-sustainability-kitchen   

• Buy Kadri’s book: https://link.springer.com/book/10.1007/978-3-031-19507-5
• Find out more about her research: https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Kadri-Aavik and https://www.etis.ee/CV/Kadri_Aavik/eng

Topics covered:

• Why food and eating are gendered (02:38-05:02)
• How to define veganism (05:02-06:49)
• Kadri’s research with vegan men in Estonia and Finland (06:49-09:41)
• Men’s motivations for becoming vegan (09:41-11:20)
• Kadri’s personal relationship with veganism (11:20-13:33)
• The connections between meat-eating and masculinity (13:33-15:02)
• Gendered differences in diets (15:02-17:14)
• Men’s engagement in household cooking (17:14-21:32)
• Navigating family relationships as a vegan (21:32-23:32)
• The influence of patriarchy on human relations with other animals (23:32-27:42)
• What this has to do with climate change and ‘Anthropocentric masculinities’ (27:42-32:10)
• Barriers to veganism for men (32:10-37:33)
• The different contexts of veganism in Estonia and Finland (37:33-41:39)
• The extent to which veganism is a ‘privileged’ phenomenon (41:39-44:35)
• Achieving institutional as well as individual change (44:35-48:48)
• Veganism as a form of activism, not just a ‘lifestyle choice’ (48:48-50:45)
• Impacts of veganism on men’s relationships (50:45-54:12)

More info: 

• Veganuary (where people try being vegan throughout January) - https://veganuary.com
• The UK Vegan Society - https://www.vegansociety.com
• Their 'Vegan and Thriving' campaign - https://www.vegansociety.com/get-involved/campaigns/vegan-thriving
• Routledge Handbook on Men, Masculinities and Organizations - https://www.taylorfrancis.com/books/edit/10.4324/9781003193579/routledge-handbook-men-masculinities-organizations-jeff-hearn-kadri-aavik-david-collinson-anika-thym
• Carol Adams: The Sexual Politics of Meat - https://caroljadams.com/spom-the-book
• 'Suella Braverman blames 'Guardian-reading, tofu-eating wokerati' for disruptive protests' (Guardian, 18th Oct 2022) - https://www.theguardian.com/politics/video/2022/oct/18/suella-braverman-blames-guardian-reading-tofu-eating-wokerati-for-disruptive-protests-video

Blake Morrison’s award-winning, bestselling memoir ‘And When Did You Last See Your Father?’ is an honest and intimate portrait of family life, father-son relations, and the impact of bereavement. Since it came out in 1993, Blake has continued to revisit his family’s past through ‘Things My Mother Never Told Me’ (2002), and is ‘still working things out’ in his poignant recent book ‘Two Sisters’, about his sister Gill and half-sister Josie, published earlier this year.

In this episode, Blake reads extracts from ‘Two Sisters’ and ‘And When Did You Last See Your Father?’, and we explore with him key themes in his work, including: sibling relationships; family secrets; men controlling women; male violence; transitions in father-son relations; youthful rebellion, and becoming a man. We also discuss issues around men, emotion and grief, the genres of ‘sib-lit’ and ‘dad-lit’, and the impact of feminism on Blake’s own development and writing. 

As well as a memoirist, Blake is a poet, novelist, and journalist. His published work includes the poetry collections ‘Dark Glasses’, ‘The Ballad of the Yorkshire Ripper’ and ‘Shingle Street’, and most recently, ‘Skin and Blister’, and four novels, including ‘The Last Weekend’ and ‘The Executor’. He’s a regular literary critic for the Guardian newspaper and the London Review of Books, and is Professor Emeritus of creative and life writing at Goldsmiths University. Born in Yorkshire, he has lived in South London for many years. 

• Find out more about Blake: https://blakemorrison.net
• More info about ‘Two Sisters’: https://www.boroughpress.co.uk/products/two-sisters-blake-morrison-9780008510527/
• ‘Things My Mother Never Told Me’ https://www.penguin.co.uk/books/357294/things-my-mother-never-told-me-by-morrison-blake/9780099440727
• ‘And When Did You Last See Your Father?’: https://granta.com/products/and-when-did-you-last-see-your-father/
• Blake’s ‘Top 10 books about fathers and sons’: https://www.theguardian.com/books/2022/nov/02/top-10-books-about-fathers-and-sons-blake-morrison-and-when-did-you-last-see-your-father

We cover the following in this episode:

• Reading from 'Two Sisters' (01:24-06:42)
• Blake’s motivations for writing the book (06:42-08:14)
• Why brothers don’t write about sisters (08:14-10:12)
• Examples of ‘sib-lit’ (10:12-11:47)
• The impact of alcoholism on Gill (11:47-13:46)
• Alcoholism and gender (13:46-16:04)
• Male violence and the efforts of adults to hide it (16:04-19:18)
• The significance of women in Blake’s life (19:18-21:02)
• The supposed stability of 1950s/60s family life (21:02-22:22)
• Reading from ‘And When Did you Last See Your Father?' (22:22-26:09)
• Why the book was so successful (26:09-27:47)
• The extent to which Blake’s portrayal of fatherhood was culturally specific (27:47-30:21)
• ‘Dad-lit’ and other authors to read on father-son relations (30:21-32:28)
• Shifts in Blake’s relationship with his dad and how he saw him (32:28-34:41)
• Blake’s capacity for writing honestly and sensitively about emotion (34:41-37:21)
• Where Blake himself fits into his memoirs (37:21-39:39)
• Gender and dealing with grief (39:39-41:25)
• Why Blake kept his Dad's pacemaker (41:25-43:46)
• What led him to write ‘Things My Mother Never Told Me’ (43:46-46:43)
• The impact feminism had on Blake and his writing (46:43-50:32)
• The influence that poetry and literature can have on young men (50:32-55:03)

How can men contribute to gender equality and justice in the world? What can they learn from feminist approaches? How can they break free from the limiting expectations of what a 'real' man should be, and become more fully human? In this episode, we talk to Jens van Tricht, the author of an inspiring book 'Why Feminism is Good for Men', now translated from the original Dutch into English by Liz Waters - and launched with this episode of Now and Men! The book offers an accessible and hopeful perspective on men and masculinities, connecting the personal and the societal, the abstract and the concrete, the theoretical and the practical, the serious and the playful. 

Jens describes himself as an 'idealist, anarchist, and feminist'. In our discussion, we explore Jens's own journey and how these influences have played out: from childhood questions about gender norms, to teenage angst and punk music, the Amsterdam squatter and anarchist movements - and finding direction through Women's Studies, personal growth and feminist practice. 

Drawing on these experiences, ten years ago Jens founded Emancipator, an organisation which promotes gender equality and social justice by engaging with men and boys about issues including work and care, violence and safety, sexuality and sexual diversity. Jens is also a board member of the MenEngage Global Alliance.

• You can find out more about Jens’s work at https://www.jensvantricht.nl and Emancipator at https://www.emancipator.nl/en/emancipator-2/
• 'Why Feminism is Good for Men' can be purchased in English on Amazon, and is also available in Arabic, Dutch, German and Korean: https://www.amazon.com/Why-Feminism-Good-Jens-Tricht-ebook/dp/B0C579ZY14/ref=sr_1_3
• Follow Jens on Twitter: https://twitter.com/jensvantricht 
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jensvantricht/ 
• Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/jens.vantricht.7

We cover the following topics in this episode:

• What led Jens to write the book and why feminism is good for men (01:04-05:49)
• Jens's experiences as a child and how these influenced his thinking about gender (05:49-13:31)
• His 'journey' into feminism and formative experiences as a teenager, e.g. punk music and the Dutch squatter movement (13:31-20:20)
• Being a man in Women's Studies (20:20-25:47)
• What 'men’s liberation'/'emancipation' means (25:47-31:38)
• Seeing oneself as a human being rather than a man (31:38-35:06)
• Holding oneself to account as a man (35:06-39:18)
• Emancipator's approach to working with men (39:18-42:34)
• Why the process is so important (42:34-48:42)
• Why relationships, sexuality and intimacy are such vulnerable and insecure domains for men (48:42-51:10)
• The context of The Netherlands and its upcoming election in debates about masculinity and gender equality (51:10-55:25)
• Wrapping up (55:25-59:58)

Richard Bliss is an artist and tailor based in Newcastle-upon-Tyne in the North-East of England. He currently has an exhibition of work on display at Bishop Auckland Town Hall in County Durham called ‘The Quest for the Perfect Shirt’. We recorded this episode in person with Richard in one of the galleries, and thank the curator, Debbie Connell, for making this possible.

In our discussion Richard explains how he, as a gay man, seeks to understand masculinity and men’s lives through the process of making shirts, often in public places or community settings, reflecting and responding to conversations with individuals or groups. He guides us through the exhibition, telling us about some of the pieces, the ideas behind them, what they say about contemporary expectations of manhood, how they relate to his own experiences, and the contradictions of a man practising textile art and tailoring and using it as a way to engage with other men.

• You can visit ‘The Quest for the Perfect Shirt’ at Bishop Auckland Town Hall until Thursday 30th November 2023: https://bishopaucklandtownhall.org.uk/gallery/current-exhibition/
• You can view photos of many of the shirts from the exhibition on Richard’s Instagram page: https://www.instagram.com/richard_bliss_newcastle_/
• Or his Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/richardne001
• There is more information about Richard and his work here: https://www.richardbliss.co.uk

A second exhibition by Richard, ‘Workers’ Thread’, celebrates the contribution of working-class women and men to the history of County Durham, and is also on display in the Town Hall. We refer briefly to this at the end our conversation, and to the ‘The Mural of the Durham Miners’ Gala’ by Norman Cornish, which occupies a whole wall there.  

We discuss the following topics in this episode:

• Why the exhibition is named ‘The Quest for the Perfect Shirt’ (01:25-06:38)
• Richard’s methods and why he uses shirts as his medium (06:38-11:04)
• Tailoring in public space and talking to people about masculinity (11:04-13:42)
• What Richard has learnt from the process (13:42-17:18)
• Favourite pieces from the exhibition – e.g. working with homeless men (17:18-24:14)
• The complexities of identity: being gay and being Jewish (24:14-30:50)
• Men and power at work (e.g. former Liberal Party politician David Steel) (30:50-36:53)
• How Richard got into textile art and tailoring (36:53-39:45)
• Ties and gendered power in clothing (39:45-42:41)
• Art and its social impact (e.g. Grayson Perry, author of ‘The Descent of Man’, 2021) (42:41-45:04)
• The influence of Durham and North East England, e.g. its working-class, trade union, mining history (45:04-50:01)
• Why the exhibition is in Bishop Auckland (50:01-55:28)
• Thinking about the future, and Richard’s next project on older gay men (55:28-59:55)

For more information about the unique collection of galleries and gardens that make up the still developing ‘Auckland Project’ in Bishop Auckland including the Spanish Gallery, the Faith Museum, the Castle, the Mining Art Gallery, and the Deer Park, see: https://aucklandproject.org

What is 'patriarchy' and where do its origins lie? How did it become embedded in societies from prehistory to the present? What part do we all play in maintaining patriarchal structures, and can they be dismantled? These are some of the pressing questions we discuss in this episode with Angela Saini, author of a fascinating new book 'The Patriarchs: How Men Came to Rule' (Harper Collins): https://harpercollins.co.uk/products/the-patriarchs-how-men-came-to-rule-angela-saini?variant=39997855268942

Angela is an award-winning British journalist, currently based in New York. She teaches science writing at Massachusetts Institute of Technology, presents radio and television programmes, and has written for National Geographic, the Financial Times, and Wired. In 2022 she was a Logan Nonfiction Program fellow, and a fellow of the Humboldt Residency Programme in Berlin. 'The Patriarchs' follows on from her earlier books, the critically acclaimed 'Superior: The Return of Race Science' and 'Inferior: How Science Got Women Wrong'.

• Website: https://www.angelasaini.co.uk
• Instagram: https://instagram.com/angeladsaini/
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/angelasaini/

We cover the following topics in this episode:

• Defining 'patriarchy' (01:01-02:32)
• 'The Patriarchs' as a title (02:32-03:51)
• 'Patriarchy' as a system (03:51-05:21)
• Motivations for writing the book (05:21-06:46)
• Animals and 'natural' male domination (06:46-10:32)
• Angela's journey exploring gender diversity in how people live (10:32-12:01)
• Matrilineal societies and why they are important (12:01-15:07)
• European colonialism and the imposition of patriarchal norms (15:07-16:08)
• The 1848 Seneca Falls Women's Rights Convention and pre-existing Native American societies (16:08-20:14)
• Weighing archaeological, anthropological and ancient DNA evidence – the work of Marija Gimbutas (20:14-27:50)
• Colonial and patriarchal justifications for inequality, e.g. in Athens (27:50-33:43)
• Rise of the first states: organising around birth rates and defence (33:43-38:37)
• Putin's Russia as a model of the patriarchal state (38:37-40:54)
• Complexities of women and men supporting or resisting patriarchy (40:54-42:26)
• Shifting and reframing ‘patriarchies’ over time, e.g. Afghanistan (42:26-45:37)
• Hanging onto a positive vision of a radically different world, e.g. Iran (45:37-47:47)
• Explaining social behaviour and social change beyond biology (47:47-50:01)
• Angela's current and future projects (50:01-52:55)
• Conclusion (52:55-58:43)

References:

• Marija Gimbutas: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marija_Gimbutas
• Ian Hodder: http://www.ian-hodder.com/
• Gerda Lerner - ‘The Creation of Patriarchy’: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Creation_of_Patriarchy
• James Scott: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_C._Scott
• Bob Pease - 'Facing Patriarchy': https://www.bloomsburycollections.com/monograph?docid=b-9781350220027

Reviews of 'The Patriarchs':

• Alex von Tunzelmann: https://www.theguardian.com/books/2023/mar/08/the-patriarchs-by-angela-saini-review-the-roots-of-male-domination
• Natasha Walter: https://www.theguardian.com/books/2023/mar/19/the-patriarchs-by-angela-saini-review-why-its-still-a-mans-world

The Spanish women’s football team have shaken the world – first with their incredible World Cup success, then by bringing into question the sexist culture of soccer, stating #SeAcabó ('It's Over') and striking en masse in protest about their treatment by the football authorities. This was after the President of the Spanish Football Federation, Luis Rubiales, was accused of kissing the striker Jenni Hermoso without her consent on live TV during the final's medal presentation ceremony. 

In this special extra episode, we speak to prominent Spanish pro-feminist activist Hilario Sáez Méndez about how men have responded to the #SeAcabó movement, and how we can understand these events in the context of wider debates about gender equality, masculinity and men's violence against women in football and Spanish society. Hilario highlights the emergence of a stronger feminist consciousness in recent years, including: 

• The #Cuéntalo ('tell it') movement after the horrific 2016 La Manada ('wolf pack') rape case in Pamplona: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/apr/23/wolf-pack-case-spain-feminism-far-right-vox
• The women’s strike in 2018 denouncing sexual discrimination, domestic violence and the gender pay gap: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/mar/08/spanish-women-give-up-work-for-a-day-in-first-feminist-strike
• The 'solo sí es sí' ('only yes means yes') law passed in 2022: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/aug/25/spain-only-yes-means-yes-sexual-consent-bill-expected-to-become-law
• He questions whether the statement by Cadiz's men’s football team - "we are all Jenni" - should in fact be "we are all Rubiales", recognising men's responsibility to address our own sexist behaviour, and that of other men: https://apnews.com/article/sevilla-hermoso-rubiales-kiss-tshirts-73b711b6412c729ec1a320f0f21d60f9

Hilario is a sociologist, the President of the Fundación Iniciativa Social (Social Initiative Foundation), and an active member of Red de Hombres por la Igualdad (Men's Network for Equality) and MenEngage Iberia.

• Follow him on Twitter: https://twitter.com/hilariosaez
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/hilario-sáez-12801928/
• Read the statement from MenEngage Iberia, expressing their revulsion at the behaviour of Luis Rubiales: https://menengage.org/stories/the-actions-of-the-spanish-football-president-are-unworthy-of-his-position-and-of-the-institution-and-the-sport-he-represents/
• MenEngage Iberia: https://twitter.com/MenEngageIberia
• MenEngage Alliance: https://menengage.org
• Fundación Iniciativa Social: https://fundacioniniciativasocial.es - @fis_tweet
• Red de Hombres por la Igualdad: https://redhombresigualdad.org
• Book by Sandy, Stephen et al., 'Men's Activism to End Violence Against Women Voices from Spain, Sweden and the UK' (2021): https://policy.bristoluniversitypress.co.uk/mens-activism-to-end-violence-against-women
• Footage from Rubiales's infamous speech: https://www.theguardian.com/football/video/2023/aug/25/luis-rubiales-refuses-to-resign-spanish-fa-president-video
• Hilario played a leading role in the men's march in Sevilla against violence against women, which we covered in episode 6: https://now-and-men.captivate.fm/episode/seville-march
• Listeners may also be interested in episode 16 with Dr Stacey Pope on building gender equality in football, which was recorded in the run-up to Euro 2022, the Women’s European Championships: https://now-and-men.captivate.fm/episode/stacey-pope
• And episode 22 with Dan Guinness, which discusses masculine pressures within professional sport: https://now-and-men.captivate.fm/episode/beyond-equality

We cover the following topics in this episode: 

• The impact of the women’s team’s success on Spanish society (01:15 – 03:49)
• The actions of Luis Rubiales and why this led to major protests (03:49 – 07:48)
• How Rubiales’s conduct fits into a wider pattern by the Spanish football authorities (07:48 – 11:43)
• What these events in football tell us about masculinity, gender relations and the political context in Spain (11:43 – 15:01)
• Differences in women’s football, e.g. less homophobia (15:01 – 16:45)
• Why the kiss is part of a much bigger systemic problem (16:45 – 19:52)
• Why the #SeAcabó movement is different to #MeToo (19:52 – 26:37)
• How different groups of men have responded to #SeAcabó (26:37 – 30:57)
• How MenEngage Iberia have been responding to what has happened (30:57 – 34:27)
• What Rubiales’s speech shows us about men’s complicity (34:27 – 38:13)
• The significance of recent shifts in gender relations, such as Spain’s ‘only yes means yes law’ (38:13 – 43:36)
• How hopeful Hilario feels about possibilities for change (43:36 – 47:18)

‘The Manosphere’ is a cluster of online groups who oppose feminism and believe that men are the true victims of gender inequality. There has long been backlash towards feminism, but its influence has grown in recent years, facilitated by the internet. Such groups include Men’s Rights and Father’s Rights Activists, Pick Up Artists (who instruct men on how to manipulate women for sex), and Men Going their Own Way (who avoid all relations with women). Incels, or ‘Involuntary Celibates’, have drawn most attention, not least because of a number of mass killings being ascribed to individuals associated with them. So what are Incel communities, why are they a cause of concern, and how should we respond to them? These are some of the issues we explore with expert Dr Lisa Sugiura.

Lisa is a Reader in Cybercrime and Gender in the School of Criminology and Criminal Justice at the University of Portsmouth in the UK. She is the Chair of Hampshire Constabulary's Force Strategic Independent Advisory Group.

• In 2021 she wrote a book called ‘The Incel Rebellion: The Rise of the Manosphere and the Virtual War Against Women’. It is available to buy or read open access as an e-book here: https://www.emerald.com/insight/publication/doi/10.1108/9781839822544
• Find out more about Lisa’s work: https://www.port.ac.uk/about-us/structure-and-governance/our-people/our-staff/lisa-sugiura
• Follow her on Twitter: https://twitter.com/lisa_sugiura
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lisa-sugiura-a5214431/
• Lisa has been working with Tooled Up to develop resources for parents and educators: https://www.tooledupeducation.com
• She is a Fellow of the Institute for Research on Male Supremacism: https://theirms.org
• Read their recommendations for media reporting on Incels: https://theirms.org/forjournalists
• In this episode we also discuss an article by Alessia Tranchese and Lisa on ‘How Incels and mainstream pornography speak the same extreme language of misogyny’: https://doi.org/10.1177/1077801221996453
• And the book by Laura Bates, ‘Men Who Hate Women’: https://www.simonandschuster.co.uk/books/Men-Who-Hate-Women/Laura-Bates/9781398504653
• Lisa also mentioned the work of Prof Rachel Pain on 'everyday terrorism': https://doi.org/10.1177/0309132513512231

We cover the following topics in this episode:

• What the Manosphere is and why we should be concerned about it (01:00 - 05:21)
• The ideas and terminology used by Incels (05:21 - 08:28)
• How women are viewed within Incel communities (08:28 - 09:58)
• What led Lisa to carry out research in this area (09:58 - 14:02)
• How she went about conducting her research (14:02 - 15:59)
• Interviewing men in the Incel community (15:59 - 21:01)
• The impact of doing this work on her wellbeing (21:01 - 23:39)
• What happens when men leave Incel communities (23:39 - 27:01)
• The harms of the Manosphere (27:01 - 29:25)
• The threats online misogyny poses to democracy (29:25 - 31:06)
• The variety of men involved in Incel communities (31:06 - 33:28)
• The damage Incel communities do to men themselves (33:28 - 37:31)
• Official responses to the Manosphere and what needs to change (37:31 - 40:26)
• The responsibilities of social media companies (40:26 - 42:52)
• Possibilities for deradicalising or preventing men from becoming involved in the first place (42:52 - 45:21)
• Overlaps in discourses used by Incels and those in pornography (45:21 - 49:07)
• How to avoid giving these groups a bigger platform (49:07 - 53:27)