Now and Men

Work with men and boys has been growing rapidly in the last 30 years, especially around the issues of preventing violence and abuse, building gender equality, promoting fatherhood, and health and wellbeing. To what extent is this a positive development? What are some of the opportunities, challenges and problems that engaging men and boys brings? And how can this work be delivered most effectively, to have a serious impact in tackling issues such as gender-based violence? There are few experts around the world better equipped to provide answers to these questions than Prof Michael Flood. He gives an in-depth, critical overview of the ‘engaging men’ field, and discusses his own story of being an anti-sexist activist since the 1980s. He also explains why it’s vital to think about issues like pornography and online misogyny in this work, and gives some pointers for parents in how to address these issues with children, and sons in particular.

Michael is a Professor in the School of Justice at Queensland University of Technology, Brisbane, Australia. He has written numerous academic publications on issues including violence against women and violence prevention, men and masculinities, pro-feminist men’s advocacy, male heterosexuality, fathering, and pornography. This includes a book with Palgrave Macmillan in 2019, ‘Engaging Men and Boys in Violence Prevention’. He also runs the website XY Online, which is full of resources on men, masculinities and gender politics.

• More info about Michael’s work: https://www.qut.edu.au/about/our-people/academic-profiles/m.flood
• Follow him on Twitter: https://twitter.com/MichaelGLFlood
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/michael-flood-5b906713/
• Read his book: https://xyonline.net/content/new-book-engaging-men-and-boys-violence-prevention
• Check out XY Online: https://xyonline.net
• Resources on men’s roles in ending violence against women: https://xyonline.net/content/engaging-men-violence-prevention-key-resources

Read his articles mentioned in the episode:

• ‘Work with men to end violence against women: A critical stocktake’ (2015) - https://doi.org/10.1080/13691058.2015.1070435
• ‘Lust, trust and latex: Why young heterosexual men do not use condoms’ (2003) - https://doi.org/10.1080/1369105011000028273

In this episode we cover the following topics:

• Why the ‘engaging men’ field has been growing, and why that’s a good thing
• Key lessons from research about how to engage with men and boys
• Issues of concern in the development of this work
• Mistakes which can arise in work by and with men and boys
• The tensions of having a public platform as a pro-feminist academic and activist
• The usefulness of terms such as ‘toxic’ and ‘healthy’ masculinity
• Trends in work with men which should give us optimism
• Why it’s important to think about pornography when addressing sexual violence
• Talking to young men about pornography and online misogyny
• Michael’s PhD research on young men’s heterosexual relations with women
• How Michael first got involved in anti-sexist activism, and how he’s been able to maintain his commitment over time

Please note that the transcript is a rough estimation and is likely to contain errors - please do not reproduce it without permission.

How do different groups of men navigate urban life and enact masculinity in the bustling metropolises of contempory Indian society? In this special 30th episode, marking two years of Now and Men, we speak to Prof Sanjay Srivastava and Dr Romit Chowdhury about the ways in which male power and privilege is both threatened and re-asserted in different city spaces in India and beyond, considering issues such as nationalism, consumerism, violence against women, mobility, and relations between men. We discuss Sanjay's recent book, ‘Masculinity, Consumerism, and the Post-National Indian City: Streets, Neighbourhoods, Home’ (Cambridge University Press, 2022), and Romit's which comes out in August 2023, ‘City of Men: Masculinities and Everyday Morality on Public Transport’ (Rutgers University Press).

Sanjay Srivastava is a British Academy Global Professor in the Department of Anthropology and Sociology at SOAS, University of London, and a Visiting Research Professor at Shiv Nadar University in Delhi. He has published numerous academic books and articles on topics including gender, urban social life, consumerism, middle-class cultures and the relationship between new forms of work and identity. 

• More info about his work: https://www.soas.ac.uk/about/sanjay-srivastava
• Buy his book: https://www.cambridge.org/us/universitypress/subjects/sociology/sociology-gender/masculinity-consumerism-and-post-national-indian-city-streets-neighbourhoods-home
• Watch Sanjay discussing his article ‘Thrilling Affects: Sexuality, Masculinity, the City and ‘Indian Traditions’ in the Contemporary Hindi ‘Detective’ Novel’: https://vimeo.com/100405661
• Follow him on Twitter: https://twitter.com/sanjays54451327

Romit Chowdhury is a Senior Lecturer in Sociology at Erasmus University College in Rotterdam, The Netherlands. His research interests are in urban studies, masculinity studies, ethnography, and literary theory. Prior to his research on men and transport he has explored masculinities in the contexts of men's rights movements, sexual violence, caregiving, and men doing feminist research and activism in India.

• More info about his work: https://www.eur.nl/en/people/romit-chowdhury
• Buy his book: https://www.rutgersuniversitypress.org/city-of-men/9781978829503
• Watch Romit discussing his award-winning article, 'The social life of transport infrastructures: Masculinities and everyday mobilities in Kolkata': https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWK2gbbqfAY
• Follow him on Twitter: https://twitter.com/chowdhury_romit

We cover the following topics in this episode: 

• Why study masculinity and urban life 
• Consumerism and the ‘post-national’ city in India, and what it has to do with gender
• Harassment and violence towards women in public spaces
• Romit’s research with male autorickshaw drivers and taxi drivers in Kolkata
• The unique methods Romit used to carry out his research 
• The role of ‘homosocial trust’ between male transport workers and police officers
• Working-class men’s struggles to accomplish ‘breadwinner masculinity’ in the city
• The characteristics of ‘Modi-masculinity’ and strongman politics in India
• How different groups of men make masculine cultures in Indian cities
• How Sanjay got involved in doing research on men, masculinities and cities in the first place 
• Backlash against work on gender issues

Between 2016 and 2020, the number of vegans in Europe has doubled from 1.3 million to 2.6 million. More and more people are questioning the consumption of meat and dairy for ethical, environmental and health reasons. The majority of these people are women, but there are a significant number of men who are vegans, too – and over 30% of Europeans say they are consciously eating less meat. In this episode, we explore men’s experiences and motivations for becoming vegan, and how they deal with masculine norms and expectations about food. For instance, veganism and vegetarianism are sometimes portrayed as ‘unmanly’ and effeminate, whilst meat-eating is often associated with strength, virility, and masculinity. The meat and dairy industries are also major contributors to greenhouse gas emissions – might the climate crisis and increasing recognition of the harms caused by these industries be leading to changes in the attitudes and behaviours of some men?

We speak to Dr Kadri Aavik, who is an Associate Professor of Gender Studies at Tallinn University, Estonia. Kadri has written a book about her research in Estonia and Finland on men and veganism, which has been published this year by Palgrave Macmillan: ‘Contesting Anthropocentric Masculinities through Veganism: Lived Experiences of Vegan Men’. Research for the book was conducted as part of the project ‘Climate Sustainability in the Kitchen: Everyday Food Cultures in Transition’ (University of Helsinki, 2018-2022), funded by the Kone Foundation: https://www.helsinki.fi/en/projects/climate-sustainability-kitchen   

• Buy Kadri’s book: https://link.springer.com/book/10.1007/978-3-031-19507-5
• Find out more about her research: https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Kadri-Aavik and https://www.etis.ee/CV/Kadri_Aavik/eng

We cover the following topics in this episode:

• Why food and eating are gendered (02:38-05:02)
• How to define veganism (05:02-06:49)
• Kadri’s research with vegan men in Estonia and Finland (06:49-09:41)
• Men’s motivations for becoming vegan (09:41-11:20)
• Kadri’s own relationship with veganism (11:20-13:33)
• The connections between meat-eating and masculinity (13:33-15:02)
• Gendered differences in diets (15:02-17:14)
• Men’s engagement in household cooking (17:14-21:32)
• Navigating family relationships as a vegan (21:32-23:32)
• The influence of patriarchy on human relations with other animals (23:32-27:42)
• What this has to do with climate change and ‘Anthropocentric masculinities’ (27:42-32:10)
• Barriers to veganism for men (32:10-37:33)
• The different contexts of veganism in Estonia and Finland (37:33-41:39)
• The extent to which veganism is a ‘privileged’ phenomenon (41:39-44:35)
• Achieving institutional as well as individual change (44:35-48:48)
• Veganism as a form of activism, not just a ‘lifestyle choice’ (48:48-50:45)
• Impacts of veganism on men’s relationships (50:45-54:12)

Explainers: 

• Routledge Handbook on Men, Masculinities and Organizations - https://www.taylorfrancis.com/books/edit/10.4324/9781003193579/routledge-handbook-men-masculinities-organizations-jeff-hearn-kadri-aavik-david-collinson-anika-thym
• The UK Vegan Society - https://www.vegansociety.com
• Carol Adams: The Sexual Politics of Meat - https://caroljadams.com/spom-the-book
• ‘Suella Braverman blames ‘Guardian-reading, tofu-eating wokerati’ for disruptive protests’ (Guardian, 18th Oct 2022) - https://www.theguardian.com/politics/video/2022/oct/18/suella-braverman-blames-guardian-reading-tofu-eating-wokerati-for-disruptive-protests-video

Suicide is a major health and wellbeing issue among men, with the UK suicide rate three times higher for men than women. There are clear links to issues of masculinity here, such as pressures on men to never show ‘weakness’ or emotion, or the idea that it is ‘unmanly’ to struggle with one’s mental health or experience failure. However, the situation is complex. Some groups of men are much more likely to take their own lives than others. The factors at play can vary substantially. And whilst they are less likely to die, women appear to be more likely to attempt to take their own lives and experience suicidal thoughts than men. Professor Jonathan Scourfield talks us through these complexities, and helps us to understand what masculinity has to do with suicide.

Towards the end of our conversation, we also talk about other significant aspects of Jonathan’s work in relation to engaging fathers, child welfare, and social work with men more generally. 

For help and support:

• In the UK and Ireland, call Samaritans on freephone 116 123, or email [email protected] or [email protected] - https://samaritans.org
• CALM (Campaign Against Living Miserably) can be contacted on 0800 58 58 58 from 5pm-midnight - https://thecalmzone.net
• The youth charity Papyrus can be contacted on 0800 068 4141 or email [email protected] - https://papyrus-uk.org
• In the US, call/text the Suicide and Crisis Lifeline on 988 - https://988lifeline.org
• In Australia, call Lifeline on 13 11 14 - https://www.lifeline.org.au
• Other international helplines can be found at https://befrienders.org

Jonathan Scourfield is a Professor of Social Work in the School of Social Sciences at the University of Cardiff, Wales. He’s also a Deputy Director of CASCADE, the Children's Social Care Research and Development Centre. He has conducted an extensive body of research over his career on topics including child and family services, working with men, social work education, identity and religion in children, and suicide and self-harm. 

• More info about Jonathan’s work: https://www.cardiff.ac.uk/people/view/38087-scourfield-jonathan
• Follow him on Twitter: https://twitter.com/j_scourfield
• Read his paper, ‘Suicidal Masculinities’, in the journal Sociological Research Online (2005): https://www.socresonline.org.uk/10/2/scourfield.html
• He also refers to the influential book he co-wrote with Brid Featherstone and Mark Rivett, ‘Working with Men in Health and Social Care’ (Sage, 2007) - https://uk.sagepub.com/en-gb/eur/working-with-men-in-health-and-social-care/book228342  

We cover the following topics in this episode:

• How accurate it is so say that men are less inclined to seek help (01:23 - 05:38)
• The range of factors which help to explain suicides among men (05:38 - 10:34)
• The relevance of feminist theories such as 'hegemonic masculinity' to male suicide, including links with violence and abuse (10:34 - 15:47)
• The influence of heteronormative pressures on men, and perceptions about mental illness (15:47 - 18:30)
• Understanding differences in suicide rates among men based on age (18:30 - 22:43)
• The impact of leaving the workforce on older men (22:43 - 25:03)
• The role of poverty and economic/geographical inequalities, and how women’s suicides fit into the picture (25:03 - 28:54)
• The preventative role of social networks, and the influence of gendered cultural scripts (28:54 - 34:26)
• Pressures faced by families (34:26 - 36:54)
• The role of the coroner's process (36:54 - 37:45)
• Policy responses to male suicide in the UK, and what more needs to be done (37:45 - 42:15)
• Jonathan’s research on engaging fathers in child welfare services (42:15 - 49:26)
• Contrasts with the ways in which mothers are seen by social services (49:26 - 50:59)
• The impact that feminism has had on Jonathan (50:59 - 54:13)
• Recap: Changes in public discourses around men’s mental health, the importance of relationships, the significance of employment to men, prevention efforts, the impact of Covid-19 (54:13 - 01:00:45)

Explainers:

• ONS = UK Office for National Statistics
• PSHE = Personal, social, health and economic education
• ‘Lonely at the Top’ by Thomas Joiner (2011) - https://us.macmillan.com/books/9780230341111/lonelyatthetop

Jackson Katz has long been a major figure in the growing global movement of men working to promote gender equality and prevent gender-based violence. He has also written and broadcast extensively about the central role of masculinity and gender in shaping political debates in the United States. With politics ever more polarised, authoritarianism and political violence – especially towards women – are becoming increasingly normalised, and figures such as Donald Trump and conservative media outlets are playing into patriarchal definitions of manhood and the family to appeal to the public.

Jackson is an educator, author, lecturer, and social theorist. He is the author of ‘The Macho Paradox: Why Some Men Hurt Women and How all Men Can Help’, and ‘Man Enough? Donald Trump, Hillary Clinton and the Politics of Presidential Masculinity’. He has also created a series of educational documentaries including ‘Tough Guise’, ‘The Bystander Moment’ and ‘The Man Card’. In 1993, Jackson co-founded Mentors in Violence Prevention in the United States, a widely influential gender-based violence prevention programme which instigated the ‘bystander’ approach. He also has a PhD in Cultural Studies and Education. Jackson recently founded the online advocacy organisation and guerrilla think tank, ‘Men for Democracy’, as a way to amplify the voices of men who support reproductive justice and democratic governance, and oppose rising authoritarianism and the increase in violence and misogyny in politics. 

• Find out more about Jackson’s work: https://www.jacksonkatz.com
• The ‘Men for Democracy’ campaign: https://menfordemocracy.com
• Read Jackson’s commentary pieces at Ms Magazine: https://msmagazine.com/author/jkatz/
• Follow him on Twitter: https://twitter.com/jacksontkatz
• Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jacksontkatz
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jackson-katz-ph-d-b7785b3/
• Watch his TEDx Talk, ‘Violence against women – It’s a men's issue’, which has received more than 5 million views: https://youtu.be/KTvSfeCRxe8

We discuss the following topics in this episode:

• The extent to which men are facing a ‘crisis of masculinity’ in countries like the US today (01:32 - 10:14)
• Why Donald Trump appeals to so many people, especially white working-class men (10:14 - 16:29)
• How US presidential campaigns have increasingly become the centre stage for debates about masculinity (16:29 - 28:51)
• How media such as Fox News have exploited patriarchal gender norms and contributed to political polarisation (28:51 - 34:18)
• Increases in threats of political violence, especially towards women, and how men should respond (34:18 - 40:26)
• The - often ignored - relationship between masculinity and gun violence in the US (40:26 - 49:49)
• What gives Jackson hope and motivation to continue doing this work (49:49 - 58:04)
• Why pro-feminists should be more ambitious in countering the seductive appeal of ‘men’s rights’ advocates such as Andrew Tate and Jordan Peterson (58:04 - 01:02:55)

Responding to serious public concern following the kidnap, rape and murder of Sarah Everard by a serving officer, together with multiple other deeply disturbing incidents, Baroness Casey’s recent independent review of London’s Metropolitan Police has highlighted institutional misogyny, racism and homophobia in the force. The review found serious failings in the Met’s leadership, recruitment, vetting, training, culture and communications, and made widespread recommendations for restoring public trust.

In this episode, we talk to Andrea Simon, Director of the End Violence Against Women Coalition (EVAW), about their response to the ongoing revelations coming out of the Met and Britain’s police forces; what needs to be done to take forward efforts to prevent violence against women and girls in the UK at this critical moment; and the contribution men and boys can make to that.

The End Violence Against Women Coalition is a group of feminist organisations and experts across the UK, working to end violence against women and girls in all its forms. It’s made up of over 135 specialist women’s support services, researchers, activists, survivors and NGOs. Andrea has worked at EVAW since 2017, and before that she campaigned on issues such as child trafficking and modern slavery and spent more than a decade working for Members of Parliament.

Find out more about EVAW: http://evaw.org.uk

• Twitter: https://twitter.com/evawuk
• Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/endviolenceagainstwomen/
• Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/evawuk/
• Follow Andrea on Twitter: https://twitter.com/AndreaSimon48

We cover the following topics in this episode: 

• The Casey Review of the culture and standards of behaviour within the Metropolitan Police, and responses to it (00:55 - 04:52)
• The gendered ways in which police resources are distributed (04:53-07:58)
• The extent to which reforming the police is possible (07:58-10:41)
• Seeking radical change whilst pushing for action in the here and now (10:41-13:05)
• Why prevention work is so important and what more needs to be done (13:05-16:57)
• The role of schools in prevention, and EVAW’s #AboutTime campaign (16:57-20:22)
• The contribution men and boys can make to ending violence against women (20:22-24:03)
• Tensions which can arise when working with men and boys (24:03-25:43)
• Shifts Andrea has observed during her time in the violence against women sector (25:43-30:03)
• What keeps Andrea motivated and hopeful in doing this work (30:03-32:26)
• Why an intersectional, anti-racist approach is so important (32:26-36:20)
• The impact of anti-immigration rhetoric on efforts to support victim-survivors (36:20-39:09)
• Backlash to gender equality from figures such as Andrew Tate (39:09-42:45)
• Tackling online abuse, and the UK’s Online Safety Bill (42:45-44:50)
• Bringing about political action (44:50-48:42)
• Why a feminist approach is so valuable (48:42-52:02)

Further resources:

• EVAW’s #AboutTime campaign: https://www.endviolenceagainstwomen.org.uk/campaign/abouttime/
• EVAW’s campaign against online abuse: https://www.endviolenceagainstwomen.org.uk/campaign/online-abuse/
• Louise Casey's Report: https://www.met.police.uk/police-forces/metropolitan-police/areas/about-us/about-the-met/bcr/baroness-casey-review/
• Anti-Racism in VAWG Working Group: https://www.endingracisminvawg.org
• UK Government ‘Enough’ campaign: https://enough.campaign.gov.uk
• A piece by Stephen, Sandy and Prof Nicole Westmarland for The Conversation from 2021, ‘Sarah Everard, police culture and the ‘masculinised’ workplaces we can all help change’: https://theconversation.com/sarah-everard-police-culture-and-the-masculinised-workplaces-we-can-all-help-change-169774
• The ‘Macpherson Report’ from The Stephen Lawrence Inquiry (1999): https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/the-stephen-lawrence-inquiry
• ‘‘We could have saved Sarah,’ says victim of Wayne Couzens’s indecent exposure’ (Guardian, 6th Mar 2023) - https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/mar/06/we-could-have-saved-sarah-says-victim-of-wayne-couzens-indecent-exposure
• ‘‘Endemic’ sexism in Met police led to undercover deception, inquiry told’ (Guardian, 21st Feb 2023) - https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/feb/21/endemic-sexism-in-met-police-led-to-undercover-deception-inquiry-told
• ‘David Carrick: Serial rapist Met Police officer in prison at least 30 years’ (BBC, 7th Feb 2023) - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-64540800
• ‘Sex education review is ‘politically motivated’, say teaching unions’ (Guardian, 8th March 2023) - https://www.theguardian.com/education/2023/mar/08/sex-education-review-is-politically-motivated-say-teaching-unions
• ‘Keir Starmer promises to halve violence against women as part of crime ‘mission’’ (Guardian, 23rd March 2023) - https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/mar/23/keir-starmer-promises-to-halve-violence-against-women-as-part-of-labour-crime-mission  
• ‘Operation Soteria: a new approach to investigating rape’ (Guardian podcast, 24th Oct 2022) - https://www.theguardian.com/news/audio/2022/oct/24/operation-soteria-rape-conviction-rates-podcast

If you have been affected by sexual violence, information and support is available from Rape Crisis: https://rapecrisis.org.uk/get-help/

Contact the UK National Domestic Abuse Helpline: https://www.nationaldahelpline.org.uk/

Some people migrate in search of work or economic opportunities, to join family, or to study. Others to escape war, conflict, persecution, or human rights abuses. Increasingly, people move in response to climate crises and natural disasters. Despite these realities, migration and migrants are often portrayed negatively by the media and politicians, with policy and legislation made more and more restrictive.

Many of these people are men - however, migration is rarely discussed in relation to gender and masculinity. Migrating men are often perceived in purely economic terms, or as a ‘threat’, linked to criminality, sexism, and terrorism. But what do we know about these men’s actual experiences, and how they navigate masculine expectations and power relations? This is what Dr Katarzyna Wojnicka has explored in her research, particularly with a large yet under-discussed group – that of Eastern European men migrating across Europe from countries such as Poland.

Katarzyna is an Associate Professor of Sociology at the University of Gothenburg in Sweden, based in the Department of Sociology and Work Science, and the Centre for European Research. She’s also an Editor in-Chief for NORMA, the International Journal for Masculinity Studies.

• Find out more about Katarzyna’s research: https://www.gu.se/en/about/find-staff/katarzynawojnicka and https://katarzynawojnicka.com
• Follow her on Twitter: https://twitter.com/DrKandTheMen
• Follow her on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/katarzyna-wojnicka-787a7072/

In this episode we cover the following topics:

• Why men and migration is a topic worth studying
• The main pieces of research Katarzyna has conducted in this area, such as her research on ‘transnational bachelors’
• The vulnerabilities arising from migration
• Why there has been little attention towards Eastern European men in research on migration in Europe
• Researching this topic as an ‘insider’
• Why Katarzyna left Poland
• Why she decided to research men and masculinities
• Attacks on women’s and LGBTQ+ rights in Poland
• Single male migrants’ constructions of masculinity
• The problems with ‘protective masculinity’
• What ‘hybrid masculinity’ means in the context of migration
• Why a ‘spatial’ approach is vital to understanding masculinities
• Improving public policy responses
• The war in Ukraine, refugees and gender
• Political discourses about migration in the UK

Further reading:

Here is a selection of papers by Katarzyna which we discuss in the episode:

• ‘Migrant men in the nexus of space and (dis)empowerment’ (NORMA, 2017): https://doi.org/10.1080/18902138.2017.1342061
• ‘Self-positioning as a man in transnational contexts: constructing and managing hybrid masculinity’ (NORMA, 2017): https://doi.org/10.1080/18902138.2017.1341768
• 'Research on men, masculinities and migration: past, present and future’ (NORMA, 2019): https://doi.org/10.1080/18902138.2019.1622058
• ‘Boyz2Men: Male migrants’ attitudes to homosexuality and what age has to do with it’ (Boyhood Studies, 2020): https://doi.org/10.3167/bhs.2020.130205
• ‘Understanding migrant masculinities through a spatially intersectional lens (Men and Masculinities, 2021)’: https://doi.org/10.1177/1097184X20986224
• ‘Hegemonic masculinity: Rethinking the concept’ (Connell and Messerschmidt, Gender and Society, 2005): https://doi.org/10.1177/0891243205278639
• ‘Hybrid masculinities: New directions in the sociology of men and masculinities’ (Bridges and Pascoe, Sociology Compass, 2014): https://doi.org/10.1111/soc4.12134
• ‘Suella Braverman condemned for suggesting 100 million migrants could come to UK’ (The Independent, 8th March 2023): https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/suella-braverman-asylum-small-boats-inflammatory-b2295776.html

War and militarism often play a central role in the construction of dominant, ‘desirable’ ideas about masculinity. So what happens when men refuse to take part in the militarisation of society, and become conscientious objectors? Dr Demet Aslı Çaltekin has researched this with people who have conscientiously objected against compulsory military service in Turkey. 

We were planning to interview Demet before the horrific earthquakes in Turkey and Syria took place, and she very kindly agreed to speak to us about the impact and response, amidst the mixture of emotions that many feel at present. Whilst the main focus of media and popular attention is rightly on the disaster and its aftermath, it is also an opportunity to highlight some of the other complex issues at the heart of Turkish society. We therefore talk with her not only about her research on militarism, but also how the feminist movement in Turkey has been creatively campaigning against femicide and violence against women.

Demet is an Assistant Professor in Criminal Law and Criminal Justice in the Law School at Durham University. She has recently written a book called ‘Conscientious Objection in Turkey: A Socio-legal Analysis of the Right to Refuse Military Service’, published by Edinburgh University Press.

• Find out more about Demet’s research: https://www.durham.ac.uk/staff/demet-a-caltekin/
• Follow her on Twitter: https://twitter.com/DemetCaltekin
• Order her book, and save 30% with the discount code NEW30: https://edinburghuniversitypress.com/book-conscientious-objection-in-turkey.html
• Read her 2022 article, ‘Women’s organisations’ role in (re)constructing the narratives in femicide cases: Şule Çet’s case’: https://doi.org/10.3390/laws11010012

Please consider donating to organisations in Turkey/Syria undertaking relief efforts in response to the earthquakes: 

• UK Disasters Emergency Committee: https://www.dec.org.uk/appeal/turkey-syria-earthquake-appeal
• Turkish Red Crescent: https://www.ifrc.org/article/turkiye-and-syria-earthquakes-ifrc-response-date
• INARA – International Network for Aid and Assistance: https://inara.org
• White Helmets Syria: https://www.whitehelmets.org/en/

In this episode we cover the following topics:

• The impact of the earthquakes
• The relief efforts and the national and international response
• What military service in Turkey involves
• What led Demet to do this research, and think differently about militarisation
• The conscientious objectors who took part in her research and their motivations
• How Turkish society responds to people who conscientiously object
• The right to conscientious objection, and its legal and social consequences
• How militarism and nationalism fit into Turkish history
• What militarism and refusing to participate in it has to do with masculinity
• How and why Turkish women engage in conscientious objection
• Parallels with militarism in British society
• The value of a socio-legal approach, and working to change the law
• The war in Ukraine and refusing to fight
• Femicide in Turkey and the feminist movement’s response 
• Challenges facing women’s civil society organisations in Turkey
• The Turkish government’s withdrawal from the Istanbul Convention, and backlash against gender equality

Further reading/listening:

• Cynthia Enloe’s 2016 book, ‘Globalization and Militarism: Feminists Make the Link’: https://rowman.com/ISBN/9781442265455/Globalization-and-Militarism-Feminists-Make-the-Link-Second-Edition
• Now and Men episode 11 with Prof Paul Higate, ‘Militarism and Military Masculinities: Why Do They Matter?’: https://now-and-men.captivate.fm/episode/paul-higate
• Now and Men episode 8 with Prof Bob Pease, ‘Masculinities, Climate Change, and Men’s Relationships with Nature’: https://now-and-men.captivate.fm/episode/climate-change

What can a historical and global perspective teach us about feminism and gender relations? How have men engaged with women's movements over the course of their history in the UK and beyond? And how have anti-sexist men dealt with the challenging questions feminists raise about our emotional and sexual lives within patriarchy? These are some of the questions Professor Lucy Delap has explored in her fascinating research.

Please note that this conversation features some discussion of sexual violence, in particular between minutes 32 and 39.

Lucy is a Professor in Modern British and Gender History at the University of Cambridge, where she is a Fellow of Murray Edwards College. Her research has principally focused on the history of feminism, and in 2020 she published the book ‘Feminisms: A Global History’. Lucy has also worked extensively in labour history, with a focus on the intersections of gender, class and disability. She helped create the ‘Unbecoming Men’ and ‘The Business of Women’s Words’ oral history collections at the British Library. She and colleagues were awarded the Royal Historical Society Public History Prize in 2018 for their work on child sexual abuse. Find out more about her work here: https://www.hist.cam.ac.uk/people/prof-lucy-delap, and follow her on Twitter at: https://twitter.com/suff66.

In this episode we explore the following topics: 

• What a historical perspective brings to our understanding of feminism, gender, and masculinities (00:42 - 02:47)
• How we can study the history of people’s intimate lives and the ‘private sphere’ (02:47 - 04:21)
• What led Lucy to become involved in studying gender, feminist history, and men’s responses to it (04:21 - 09:11)
• Lucy’s research on men who became involved in anti-sexist activism in the UK in the wake of the Women’s Liberation Movement of the 1970s/80s (09:11 - 14:21)
• Why the nature of men’s pro-feminist political organising has changed over time (14:21 - 18:02)
• How and why the ‘men’s movement’ splintered off into different directions (e.g. mythopoetic and ‘men’s rights’ activism) (18:02 - 23:52)
• Why issues of emotion, such as guilt and shame, are so important in understanding men’s engagements with feminism (23:52 - 33:45)
• Men reflecting on and reconfiguring their ‘sex lives’ and the male gaze in response to feminist activism against sexual violence (33:45 - 43:48)
• The value of adopting a global perspective on feminist movements (43:48 - 49:25)
• Lucy reads from her book ‘Feminisms’ about the work of Nigerian feminist activist Funmilayo Ransome-Kuti (49:25 - 55:07)

Further reading:

• Lucy’s book, ‘Feminisms: A Global History’ (Penguin, 2020) - https://www.penguin.co.uk/books/305361/feminisms-by-delap-lucy/9780141985985
• Information about Lucy’s ‘Unbecoming Men’ British Library project - https://www.bl.uk/womens-rights/articles/male-allies and https://www.bl.uk/sisterhood/articles/mens-reponses-to-womens-liberation
• Lucy’s article, ‘Rethinking rapes: Men’s sex lives and feminist critiques’ in Contemporary British History (2022) - https://doi.org/10.1080/13619462.2022.2051489
• Lucy’s article ‘Feminism, masculinities and emotional politics in the late twentieth century’ in Cultural and Social History (2018) - https://doi.org/10.1080/14780038.2018.1518560
• ‘30 years of the Child Support Act’ (UK Parliament, 2021) - https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/30-years-of-the-child-support-act/
• Berger, J. (1972) Ways of Seeing. London: BBC and Penguin Books.
• Butler, J. (2006) Gender Trouble: Feminism and the Subversion of Identity. London: Routledge.
• Roper, M. (2005) Slipping out of View: Subjectivity and Emotion in Gender History (in History Workshop Journal).
• Roper, M. and Tosh, J. (1991) Manful Assertions: Masculinities in Britain since 1800. London: Routledge. 
• Segal, L. (1990) Slow Motion: Changing Masculinities, Changing Men, London: Virago.
• Smith, H. (2015) Masculinity, Class and Same-Sex Desire in Industrial England, 1895-1957. Basingstoke: Palgrave Macmillan.
• Tosh, J. (1999) A Man’s Place: Masculinity and the Middle-Class Home in Victorian England. London: Yale University Press.

If you have been affected by sexual violence, information and support is available from Rape Crisis: https://rapecrisis.org.uk/get-help/

For over 10 years, Beyond Equality have been engaging with young men in the UK to give them a chance to reflect on who they want to be, and how they can help create safer and more inclusive communities. This was originally through two different organisations: the Good Lad Initiative in universities and Great Men in schools. Since then they have become Beyond Equality, and now work with men and boys in a range of different settings and communities across the UK. Dan Guinness, the Managing Director, was one of the founders - he talks to us about the journey the organisation has been on, and what they have learnt about how to engage men and boys in transformative conversations about issues such as gender equality, relationships, violence against women, and mental health.

Dan has an academic background, holding a PhD in Cultural Anthropology from the University of Oxford. He discusses with us some of the fascinating findings from his research on the links between sport, masculinity, global economic inequalities and neo-liberalism, and how this is embodied in the current Qatar 2022 men’s football World Cup. In addition, he explores the possibilities for healthy and inclusive environments to be created within sport, and his own powerful story of how he came to be involved in gender equality work.  

You can find out more about Beyond Equality at: https://www.beyondequality.org

• Twitter: https://twitter.com/beyond_equality
• Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/beyond_equality/
• Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/beyondequality1
• Follow Dan on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/danguinness/

We cover the following topics in this episode: 

• Dan’s personal journey of getting involved in issues of gender equality, masculinity and violence prevention
• The extent to which egalitarian, non-violent cultures can be created in sport
• How the rise of neoliberalism since the 1980s together with ‘breadwinner’ expectations have pressured young men in the Global South to become involved in professional sport
• How Beyond Equality started and has changed over time, and the work it’s doing now
• The importance of good quality facilitation in work with men and boys
• How Beyond Equality evaluate the impact of their work 
• Future plans, including a new project with Movember about men’s mental health and collective resilience (more info: https://www.beyondequality.org/blog-posts/announcement-collective-resilience-in-community-settings-project-funded-by-movember) 
• How debates in the UK about masculinity and violence against women have shifted in recent years, and what still needs to change at the policy level

More information:

• You can access much of Dan’s research here: https://www.researchgate.net/scientific-contributions/Daniel-Guinness-2126813915
• Besnier, N., Calabrò, D.G. and Guinness, D. (eds) (2021) Sport, Migration, and Gender in the Neoliberal Age. Abingdon: Routledge. https://www.routledge.com/Sport-Migration-and-Gender-in-the-Neoliberal-Age/Besnier-Calabro-Guinness/p/book/9781138390652
• Besnier, N., Guinness, D., Hann, M. and Kovac, U. (2018) Rethinking masculinity in the neoliberal order: Cameroonian footballers, Fijian rugby players, and Senegalese wrestlers. Comparative Studies in Society and History, 60(4): 839–872. https://doi.org/10.1017/S0010417518000312
• Jackson, D. (1990) Unmasking Masculinity: A Critical Autobiography. London: Unwin. https://www.routledge.com/Unmasking-Masculinity-Routledge-Revivals-A-Critical-Autobiography/Jackson/p/book/9781138808713