Open Mike Podcast

David Rudolf and Sonya Pfeiffer are spouses, attorneys at Rudolf Widenhouse law firm, and co-hosts of the popular podcast Abuse of Power. However, they may both be best known for their work on North Carolina vs. Peterson, a bizarre, 15-year-long case that was documented on the Netflix smash-hit, The Staircase. In this don't-miss episode of Open Mike, Rudolf and Pfeiffer reflect on subjects omitted by the docuseries, including: the challenges of working on a highly publicized case with a documentary crew, what they retrospectively would have done differently to ensure justice, and how their client, Michael Peterson, is faring five years after the case's conclusion.

Show Notes

[00:50] David Rudolf and Sonya Pfeiffer, thank you both for being here with us on Open Mike! I have so many questions for you, I've been reading about your history, and so many exciting things you've been a part of — things we've been trying to cover on Open Mike with all the wrongful exonerations…

[01:07] David, let's dive right in. You've been an attorney for many years and have always fought for the little guy. What has driven you to those cases?

[02:32] Sonya, I recognize you from the Netflix series Abuse of Power. You had a prominent role as a reporter in the series — now you're a lawyer, you guys are married, and you have this great podcast… tell us about that journey and where you are now.

[05:19] What a journey! After law school you met David during the Peterson trial, is that true?

[05:49] Did you guys start dating after the Peterson trial, during the Peterson trial, am I allowed to ask that question?

[07:46] I assume with some of your current cases, you're dealing with the press. How are you finding that? Are you good at that, or is it difficult?

[10:21] Before we hop into the Peterson case, Netflix, and your podcast, I have a question about consistent problems you've seen in the many, many years you've been doing criminal defense… on our podcast, we've now interview five exonerees who have collectively sent over 100 years in prison for crimes they absolutely did not commit… As a lawyer of thirty years who's new to criminal defense, I'm seeing consistent inequity in our justice system, and I'm curious what you're seeing on a day-to-day basis and whether you think we're getting better?

[12:07] The root cause of such inequity may be confirmation bias, the tendency to seek out information that reinforces previously established beliefs. In a legal context where evidence may be weak, this can manifest in pressuring false confessions out of suspects, junk science, or tampered evidence.

[14:57] If you've not checked out the Netflix series The Staircase, about the Peterson trial, you need to check it out.

[15:25] How did you get involved in the case? Did you know someone involved, or were you one of the best resources around and were recruited?

[17:48] How did the Netflix series come about and how did the production crew convince you to give them behind-the-scenes access? Because if any of that information came to light while the case was active, the case would have died!

[22:39] Nothing was staged for the film, right? You would have proceeded the way you would have whether or not the film crews were there?

[24:00] Sonya, how fascinating was that for you to watch after the trial, seeing how they came up with their legal theories and conducted investigations?

[25:49] Thank you for putting that in context — the original Netflix series The Staircase came out in 2004 on the Sundance Channel, and then five additional episodes were released by Netflix in 2018.

[26:26] Overall, were you please with how the series came out?

[27:46] The team you put together… you definitely don't put a team like that together for every case. On the big ones you do. This was a Dream Team. You had some really good defense attorneys, friends and family, jury consultants, pathologists… For example, you flew one in from Detroit — Werner Spitz, the former Oakland County medical examiner who's world-renowned. A legend. How did you find him?

[30:12] Your facial expressions in some of those first episodes are so compelling. You can almost see into your brain when you're describing your theories to your jury consultants… I don't think people realize how much is involved in making those tough decisions. And you don't know if you made the right decision until the jury comes in and delivers their verdict!

[32:54] The five exonerees I've interviewed, none of their defense attorneys had the qualities you described. Nor did they have any assembled teams defending them.

[36:28] How do you instill the passion you're describing in these attorneys so they become the most effective public defenders possible?

[39:31] The Staircase is so well done, and so thorough. It should be mandatory viewing for law students. Maybe it will be one day.

[40:14] For the fans who have seen this docuseries and may go back and re-watch…  are there one or two things on the case you would have done differently?

[42:35] When you have people who are perjuring themselves and confirmation bias, it's hard to prove your theories, especially when you're in the throes of it! It took you eight or nine years to thoroughly assert Michael Peterson's innocence. But when you're in it, and you have an uneducated, poor person up against a powerful attorney, it's hard to prove your point.

[44:44] When people make up evidence or perjure themselves, it's called noble cause corruption. The reason they're doing something wrong is that they believe they have the right person — the ends justify the means.

[45:31] Did you interview the jury after the verdict?

[46:37] The second trial you were granted never went… you sent many months working for your client and got him an Alford plea, which we don't have in Michigan. Can you explain what that is?

[48:49] Was it hard to convince Michael to take that plea?

[49:50] How's he doing with his children and the family unit he had? Are you still in contact with him?

[51:03] Whether you think Michael is guilty or not, that's not the point of the docuseries. The point is to show the criminal justice system, illuminate the issues in it, and to demonstrate that he didn't get a fair trial.

[51:46] What do you really believe happened? It may not be a fair question… it's such a convoluted, crazy story.

[55:19] David, you literally learned about the owl theory after closing arguments?

[57:12] All these years later, we're allowed to play Monday morning quarterback… if you were allowed to do the trial again, that would be your theory?

[57:45] Did they check for evidence of an owl attack on her head?

[58:16] Were the feathers in her hair ever analyzed to determine they were owl feathers? Are they in an evidence locker somewhere?

[59:03] Tell me if I'm, wrong, but there wasn't a single piece of evidence proving an intruder, there's never been a weapon, there are bizarre marks on her head that don't seem to be caused by a person, Michael isn't covered in any evidence or DNA… it was almost like a phantom committed the murder! Those marks on her head may have been hard to reckon with.

[1:00:50] David, tell us about your podcast Abuse of Power!

[1:06:22] Thank you for being on the podcast, I'd love to do more episodes with you. If you have availability in the coming months, I'm going to give you a call

[1:06:50] Make sure to check out Abuse of Power and The Staircase on Netflix, everyone! David, thank you for your time.

[1:07:08] Thank you for watching Open Mike, I hope you enjoyed this episode! Some of the questions I asked today I'm sure they did not ask when the trial was live — if you think I missed any questions, let me know because it sounds like we're going to have David back on. Like, comment, subscribe, download. We're looking forward to a great 2021 season and we have lots of great things lined up for you! Thank you for watching, thank you for listening!

As a former writer for The Tonight Show, humor columnist, and podcast personality, Frank King is a natural comedian. However, similar to many comedians, he has battled depression and suicidal ideation his entire life, conditions that run in his family.

Frank realized that his comedic skills provided him a casual platform through which he could reach and educate people on mental illness — when people are laughing, they're learning. So, he drew upon his personal experiences with depression, framed them through a lens of comedy, and launched a career as a Suicide Prevention and Postvention Public Speaker and Trainer.

While high in entertainment value, Frank's keynotes are also highly impactful. By blending comedy and education, they start conversations, create a sense of community, and give voice to the feelings and experiences of those who have been affected by mental illness and suicide.

In this episode of Open Mike, Frank reflects on his lengthy comedy career, discusses the state of the pandemic-affected speaking industry, and imparts some serious insight on mental illness, peppering in jokes all along the way.

If you or someone you know is suffering from depression, call 1-800-273-TALK (8255) to reach a 24-hour crisis center, or text MHA to 741741.

Show Notes

[00:24] Frank King's background and bio.

[01:57] Welcome to Open Mike, Frank!

[02:23] That was quite an intro I just read! You've done it all, and now you're doing TEDx Talks on suicide, comedy — I don't even know where to begin! Let's start with The Tonight Show — who was the host during the time you were there?

[03:57] You got to work with and meet a bunch of celebrities, Jerry Seinfeld, Ellen DeGeneres, Kevin James… they came to the studio with their own jokes, so would you just meet them when they were in the building, working on the show?

[04:46] You were writing on The Tonight Show, so were you ever on The Tonight Show?

[05:31] Tell us one of your favorite bits or jokes you sold, whatever comes to mind!

[06:55] Now you're doing TED Talks… tell us how you got into that and the topics you speak on.

[09:05] As someone who has hereditary Major Depressive Disorder and experiences moments of suicidal ideation, Frank realized he could speak on suicide prevention if he got some education on it.

[11:07] So, people are hiring you to help them get TEDx Talks?

[11:21] Tell our listeners and viewers the difference between a TED Talk and a TEDx Talk.

[13:11] You're talking about a very tough subject, you're showing vulnerability, and adding some humor… was the first time you took the stage nerve-wracking?

[14:22] What are a few of the takeaways from your talk? So people can search you out on TED and YouTube…

[15:45] What's the topic of your sixth TEDx Talk coming up in February?

[16:38] Frank's next talk is about depressive realism, a suggested attribute of people with depression that allows them to see the world as it is, unaffected by "rose-colored glasses." The idea is to change the frame through which we view depression — not every aspect of it is negative.

[17:56] You don't get paid for TEDx Talks, correct?

[18:56] What are you striving for? I imagine the goal is number of viewers — what's a successful talk vs. a not-so-successful talk?

[21:00] We've had five people on the show who have been wrongfully convicted, and some of them may want to do a TEDx Talk one day. They may not necessarily be able to afford to hire a coach but would benefit from some advice. What should they do in order to book a TEDx Talk some day?

[25:42] How does one translate a lifelong experience, a story that takes hours and hours to share, into a fifteen-minute talk?

[27:09] If you go to Frank's coaching website, you can check out a PDF called 6 Things That Will KILL Your Chances Of Landing A TEDx Talk for more guidance on story structure.

[27:40] I assume you're doing TEDx virtually now?

[28:06] Once you conduct a TEDx Talk, how do you leverage it?

[29:40] Are you getting paid speaking gigs from these talks?

[31:20] The professions with the five highest suicide rates are: construction, mining, excavation, fishing/forestry, dentists/veterinarians/physicians.

[33:25] Right now is a good time to apply to TEDx because many people believe talks are no longer occurring, which is not the case. Many are occurring virtually. Additionally, the National Speakers Association estimates 25-40% of current speakers will not be working in the industry following the pandemic. There will be a pent-up demand and fewer speakers, so now is a good time to get in position if you are interested in being a speaker.

[35:29] Thank you to Frank King for appearing on Open Mike! If you're interested in a TED Talk or know someone who has an interesting story, make sure to check out his speaking website and coaching website. Thank you for supporting Open Mike!

At age seventeen, Jeffrey Deskovic was wrongfully sentenced to life in prison for the rape and murder of a classmate. Authorities knew his DNA did not match that of the actual perpetrator – who would later murder another young woman and mother of two. Nevertheless, they colluded to convict and keep Jeff behind bars for the next 16 years. After his exoneration and release, Jeff successfully sued the responsible parties, and used a substantial portion of the compensation to start The Deskovic Foundation — a non-profit that overturns wrongful convictions and challenges the policies that enable them. Check out this riveting episode of Open Mike to learn more about Jeff's post-prison life as a lawyer, the Amazon Prime documentary about his case, and how this traumatizing ordeal helped him find his true vocation.

Show Notes

[00:13] Jeffrey's bio and background

[01:10] Jeff, you were a sixteen-year-old high school student and you were arrested for rape and murder — can you tell us what that was like?

[01:36] What kind of kid were you?

[02:14] Why do you think the police targeted you?

[02:32] Jeff didn't necessarily fit in at school, so some students referred police to him. When Jeff was emotional over the untimely murder of a classmate, the police misinterpreted that as a sign of guilt. A psychological profile conducted by the NYPD also draw similarities between Jeff's personal attributes and that of a potential perpetrator.

[03:49] The way you describe those three things… that could have been anybody! There's no way you could have committed this crime, but I'm reading about a confession you gave while in custody. Tell us about that.

[06:42] After a polygraph and interrogating a terrified Jeff for 6.5-7 hours, police eventually broke Jeff into making a false confession.

[06:51] Did they say you failed the polygraph?

[07:55] After the fact, did you get readouts of this test that showed you came up clean?

[08:18] So you were arrested after you gave this nonsensical confession?

[08:38] You're an intelligent guy, you went to law school, you're now helping others in similar positions. Looking back on that confession, can you shed some light on how easy it is to be coerced into giving a false conviction?

[09:55] Was this all on video tape?

[10:15] Are there now laws in most states that confessions must be videotaped?

[10:32] For the sake of time, you had a public defender, were tried by a jury, and convicted… how bad was your public defender?

[12:40] There was some misconduct by a medical examiner, can you give us some details on that?

[13:07] Six months after an initial examination, the medical examiner claimed to have remembered he found evidence the deceased victim was "promiscuous" in an attempt to help the prosecutor explain why DNA found at the scene didn't match Jeff's.

[13:40] Was there prosecutorial misconduct other than that?

[14:24] You had a pretty famous prosecutor, yes?

[15:37] How long was the jury trial? You're incarcerated the whole time?

[16:04] Did you recant the confession right away and tell your family and lawyer?

[16:59] So, you're tried as an adult, convicted at sixteen-years-old, and sentenced for seventeen to twenty-five years?

[17:28] You're seventeen, you go to prison, are in solitary confinement for twenty-eight days at one point… how horrible was that? Was that the worst part of the experience?

[18:32] Being in prison at seventeen years old… and with staff passing around pamphlets to let everyone know you're this horrible sex offender… that had to have been the scariest thing in the whole world!

[19:21] How did you get Barry Scheck and The Innocence Project to take a look at your case?

[20:06] Tell us about the DNA. It's a little bit confusing… Your DNA wasn't on the scene… what was the new evidence that was presented?

[21:15] After technological advancements in DNA testing that allowed for more specificity, it became apparent the DNA belonged to Stephen Cunningham, who had also killed and raped another person. He eventually admitted to the crime Jeff had been accused of.

[21:51] In the Amazon Prime Documentary, Conviction, you talk at length about getting that news. What was that experience like?

[24:54] The feeling of being released — how do you describe that?

[25:28] How was your family? Did they coalesce and reengage with you after all this?

[26:58] Jeff had infrequent visitors throughout his prison time, other than his mother who would visit every six months. He was putting ads in the local Sacramento newspaper for pen pals because he was so lonely and bored. He did find a pen pal who provided him moral support and kept him from going over the edge of loneliness.

[27:51] It sounds like your family basically abandoned you… but you get out of prison, your wrongful conviction case gets a financial settlement, and then you decide to go to law school?

[28:25] It took five years to obtain his settlement, during which Jeff struggled to find employment, housing, building social situations… but he was doing advocacy work in the meantime, and obtained scholarships to help him finish his education. Once he got his settlement, he used the funds to start the Jeffrey Deskovic Foundation for Justice to help others who are wrongfully convicted and pursue policy changes. As of October 26, 2020, Jeff was officially admitted to the Bar.

[30:02] How did you like law school?

[32:15] You started this amazing foundation, the Jeffrey Deskovic Foundation for Justice and have so far freed nine different people who were wrongfully convicted for different reasons, which is AMAZING. You're using your settlement money to help others… I'm blown away by you. Thank you for what you're doing for these people, selflessly. What is it about you that is compelling you to do this?

[35:17] Jeff is able to remain free of angry and bitterness because he's already lost so much of his life and doesn't see any point in not enjoying what he has left.

[35:44] It's truly amazing. And you're not only helping nine or ten clients, you're pushing for policy change. What kind of traction have you gotten there?

[36:01] Advocacy efforts helped pass a New York state law making video recording mandatory during interrogations, as well as ID reform and DNA database expansion.

[38:15] What kind of team do you have working with you and so many initiatives?

[40:46] It's unbelievable. When people hear these stories, one thing they always ask about is immunity. Where are we in this country in holding bad judges, prosecutors, and cops accountable for their dirty tactics in wrongfully convicting people. Is there any movement forward?

[44:01] How is your life these days? How is Jeffrey Deskovic doing now?

[45:16] You mentioned chess… did you like The Queen's Gambit?

[45:39] What is the Queen's Gambit, do you use it in your move?

[46:12] Jeff normally opens with the French Defence, rather than the Queen's Gambit.

[46:27] Thank you for all the work you do and thank you for appearing on Open Mike. I hope everyone watching spreads word of your advocacy, and donates to your cause. Congratulations on becoming a lawyer, I know you'll do amazing things.

[47:19] Share this episode, check out the documentary Conviction on Amazon Prime, donate some money if you can. Thank you for watching and supporting Open Mike!

Brian Banks is a highly sought-after community educator, author, law school graduate, and former Michigan State Representative. But despite his tremendous career, he has experienced an equally tremendous degree of hardship along the way, from a dysfunctional childhood, to an adolescence marred by fraud charges, to corrupt political forces ousting him from office. In this episode of Open Mike, Banks discusses his personal struggles in depth and reflects on ways they've endowed him with the talent and tenacity to continuously create his own success.

Show Notes

[00:35] Brian Banks's intro and bio taken from his book, It Had 2 Happen.

[01:35] Hi, Brian, thank you for being on Open Mike!

[2:28] Our governor instituted some new reform in the no-fault arena, for no reason. What do you think about the no-fault changes that are currently going into effect?

[04:50] Why do you think she gave a gift to the Republicans and insurance companies without thinking about her Michigan constituents? Do you have any insight on that?

[08:13] You have a fascinating story and you're very open about your story… You're very open about the criminal activity you unfortunately got involved in, and you took responsibility. So, let's dig into this — you grew up in Detroit, you went to Denby High School, and you dropped out your senior year. Give us a brief version about how that happened.

[10:15] Due to a troubled home life, Brian started skipping class for weeks on end, after transferring to a different school. He eventually got a job, started hanging out with the wrong people, and started committing credit card and check fraud.

[12:43] Eventually, Brian was charged on seventeen counts of fraud.

[14:31] Eventually, he was sentenced to a year probation with the first six months on a tether, in lieu of jail… the tether was impeding his ability to land a job, so Brian successfully wrote, filed, and argued a motion to remove the tether. The next day, he obtained his GED and enrolled in Wayne State University, with aspirations of becoming an attorney.

[18:03] What year did you get into law school?

[18:28] Did you take the bar exam?

[18:44] For those who don't know, Michigan lawyers have to go through a process called "character and fitness" where they're vetted to ensure they're up to state standards to practice law. Because of Brian's history, they would not let him be a licensed attorney in the state.

[20:31] When someone experiences poverty, it's a domino effect. Pair that with a felony conviction, it's incredibly hard to obtain gainful employment.

[21:36] When are you giving it another shot?

[22:17] You go through the process, they pass you, and then you have to take the bar exam again?

[22:59] Let's talk about your time in the Michigan state legislature… can you tell us why you decided to run for Congress, here in Michigan?

[26:09] During Brian's first term, he had 100% attendance and a 100% voting record. Because of his experiences, he was compelled to make sure his constituents' voices were represented at the capitol. The first community event he held was for ex-offenders, to help get their records expunged.

[27:03] In 2014, Brian was re-elected with more votes than in his 2012 run. He was also elected by his colleagues as chairman of the Detroit Black Caucus.

[27:13] Let's talk about that — a very powerful Democratic caucus. What was that like, walking in as chairman after all that you went through?

[28:36] As chairman, Brian was essentially the most powerful African American in the state legislature. He started making enemies because he started taking some unpopular positions.

[29:03] What do you think were your most unpopular decisions in 2015, leading up to your 2016 experience?

[31:38] You're thwarting a powerful Detroit mayor and have an upcoming election for your third term… as this is happening, people are running against you… there are rumors that people within your own party are putting others up against you… and one day, you're sitting at home, and get a knock on your door from a couple FBI agents. Take us through that story.

[32:37] Do you believe the mayor put someone up against you?

[34:11] Brian was accused by the then Republican Attorney General of improperly paying back a 2010 loan, so he hired an attorney to represent him. His attorney convinced him to plead guilty, after a long, drawn-out process.

[34:55] Brian was ultimately able to get the felony charges dropped, but he had to resign from office. It was clear that the entire process was political, and other colleagues wanted him out of the way.

[35:48] While many wrote Brian off, he started a successful consulting agency and still conducts educational, community outreach events. He realized he doesn't need a title to serve.

[36:43] Do you think you're going to run again for a third term?

[38:46] If you want to learn more about Brian's life in detail, check out his book, It Had 2 Happen!

[39:05] Thank you to Brian Banks for coming on Open Mike!

[40:52] If you think someone would enjoy this episode, pass it along, subscribe, like. And tell us who you'd like to be on Open Mike! We will bring them to you. Thank you for watching and listening!

At the age of 16, Mario Bueno was convicted of second-degree murder and spent the next nineteen years in prison — three of which were in solitary confinement. Today, he is a reform expert, author, scholar, and co-founder of LUCK, Inc., an organization dedicated toward mentoring vulnerable populations within the Detroit Metropolitan Area. On this episode of Open Mike, Mario takes the reins and describes the effects prison had on his formative years, the spiritual awakenings he experienced along the way, and community outreach programs he's currently engaged with.

Show Notes

[00:13] Mario Bueno's background and bio

[00:59] Mario, welcome to the show!

[01:28] At age sixteen you were convicted of second-degree murder of a twenty-seven-year-old drug dealer… did you please guilty to that murder?

[02:49] You maintained your innocence, but you were found guilty in the second trial?

[04:02] It sounds like, now, you admit that you were involved in that murder?

[05:35] One of the problems with the criminal justice system is that it pits victim and perpetrator against each other and can prevent the offender from truly owning up to what they've done.

[06:07] We have an 87% recidivism rate within nine years of someone's release from prison.

[07:46] To be able to truly convey remorse to a victim or victim's family is restorative justice. Mario's nonprofit, Luck, Inc. focuses on this type of justice through peer mentoring of at-risk populations.

[08:45] What was prison like once you admitted responsibility and reached out to the victim's family? Were you trying to help other prisoners come to their truth as well? What was that process like?

[12:27] The year you spent in Oakland County solitary as a sixteen-year-old… was that the worst year out of the twenty you spent in prison?

[13:09] We need to reexamine the practice of solitary confinement — it's inhumane.

[15:11] It took a few years for your personal and spiritual transformation to really sink in and manifest, it sounds like?

[16:08] Mario wrote a thesis titled, Incarceration of Adolescents in Adult Prisons: Adults' Recollections of their Experiences and its Impact on Adult Adjustment in which he measured juveniles who were housed with adults and how they cope with the outside world once they're released. One of the findings was that in order for juveniles to survive an adult prison, they have to become "conscious sociopaths" as a coping mechanism.

[20:20] There's so much to unpack. You're a McNair Scholar, creator of a nonprofit with twelve employees, author of two books — Reformed: Memoir of a Juvenile Killer and Never Going Back, which you wrote during the pandemic lockdown…

[21:58] There are 2,400 parolees in Detroit at any given time and 75% of them are unemployed. There are 8,400 people on felony probationers at any given time and 45% are unemployed. Mario had to create his own employment opportunities because, even with his prolific output, he's unable to apply for and get a traditional job.

[26:29] You said you were kicked out of one of your prisons… why was that? It was making money stuff, not violent stuff?

[30:30] Mario details the poker and tobacco schemes he ran in prison and how a heart-to-heart with a warden influenced him to change his perspective and his behavior while he fulfilled the rest of his sentence.

[34:40] If you shift your belief system, you can shift cycles you find yourself stuck in.

[34:50] What did you change after coming to that realization?

[36:38] What are you doing right now, through your organizations, to help Detroiters and Michiganders?

[37:11] Mario is a community engagement coordinator for the Youth Justice Fund, servicing juvenile lifers who are returning back to the community. Luck, Inc. is also helping parolees find housing after extended sentences and helping guide them along their journey.

[41:17] We're spending $2.2 billion on the Michigan Department of Corrections and $123 million on reentry.

[41:48] If you're a parolee, there are government programs and amazing people like you who can provide support and consulting to help them back on their feet. But if you're exonerated for a crime you didn't commit, you get nothing. There are no benefits, the government won't pay for any personal coaching. Did you know about that difference?

[52:15] Mario, I don't think we've ever had a guest on Open Mike who I've let just talk and talk — but your stories and energy are so damn good and infectious and meaningful and powerful! And I commend you for everything you're doing and everything you've learned and how you're giving back to the community. I smell a movie coming!

[54:08] When we believe we're designed to succeed, we develop a relationship with self. And a relationship with self that's defined by love allows us to love others. Hurt people hurt others.

[55:50] The services in our system must be better. A greater percentage of the billions spent on the system has to be allocated toward rehabilitation and helping people.

[56:30] It was an honor to have you on, Mario — go do God's work!

[56:45] Mario Bueno — there was something about the way he talked and the messaging he delivered that was fascinating and moving. If you know of someone who could be moved by his message, please share, subscribe. Thanks for watching us on Open Mike —until next time!

John S. Cooper is the executive director of Safe & Just Michigan, an organization that advances policies that end Michigan's over-use of incarceration and promote community safety and healing. As currently constituted, Michigan's criminal justice system prioritizes punishment, over public safety. Most policies emphasize being tough on crime instead of helping people get back on their feet. Check out the latest installment of Open Mike for John's insights on how we can better advocate for the 2 million Michiganders with criminal records, ways to influence legislators to pass holistic, crime reduction bills, as well as exciting, statewide developments in criminal record expungement.

Show Notes

[00:21] John Cooper's background and bio as Executive Director of Safe & Just Michigan

[00:53] Welcome to Open Mike, John!

[01:12] Where are you calling in from, so our viewers and listeners are in the know?

[01:47 Before we jump in, what does Safe & Just Michigan do? What are you all about?

[02:55] Is Michigan too tough on criminals?

[03:16] As currently constituted, Michigan's criminal justice system is about punishment, not public safety — policies emphasize being tough on crime instead of helping people get back on their feet. We hold their criminal records over their heads for the rest of their lives.

[04:48] If there were no prison, what would deter people from committing crimes?

[05:17] Some crimes originate as lack of opportunity. If you throw a poor person into jail for committing a poverty-related crime, nothing is going to change unless you address those underlying problems. When they're released, it will be worse because they will have fewer job opportunities due to their criminal record. It's a self-replicating cycle.

[06:16] What does Safe & Just Michigan advocate for instead of prison time?

[06:50] Half of all criminal offenses in Michigan are traffic offenses. The majority of those are low-level misdemeanors, such as driving with a suspended license. 5% of Michigan drivers get their licenses suspended annually. 95% of those suspensions are because the person is too poor to pay a fine. The issue is poverty, not public safety.

[08:09] What is your thought process on drunk driving that doesn't injure anyone or driving without a valid license? Is jail a deterrent for those types of offenses?

[11:08] Are you working on influencing legislature to change the laws surrounding posting bail?

[11:27] At any given time, there are about 8,000 people in Michigan who are in jail. 50% of them are held pre-trial because they can't post bail. Most bail postings are less than $5,000 and correlate to low-level misdemeanors. Yet, we have a bail system that operates under the assumption that most people should pay pre-trial, which is inconsistent with our Constitution as shown by the SCOTUS case United States v. Salerno.

[12:53] The Bail Project is a national nonprofit organization that pays bail for people in need, reuniting families and restoring the presumption of innocence. The Bail Project currently operates in 9 cities around the country, including Detroit.

[15:38] 90% of people who post bail show up to their court dates — if you spend that money, you're going to want it back. People whose bails are paid for courtesy of The Bail Project still show up for court when it's not their money to recoup.

[16:20] Is it true that Michiganders have longer sentences than other states?

[17:52] 20% of people charged in Michigan are charged habitually. The length of prison sentences has increased dramatically over the last 25 years, partially because lower-level offenders, especially drug offenders, are not being sent to prison as often.

[19:32] Michigan had 37,000 – 38,000 people in the prison system prior to the pandemic. It's currently down several thousand, although due more to lower of admissions than more parolees… the vast majority of people in the system are ineligible for parole because they haven't fulfilled terms of their sentences.

[20:45] How many people are in the prison system due to marijuana-related offenses?

[21:44] That brings us to expungement… can you explain what it is, who's eligible, and what's going on with expungement in Michigan?

[25:48] There are roughly 2 million people in Michigan with criminal records, yet only 2,000 – 3,000 records are expunged each year.

[26:00] Is every type of felony expungable?

[26:57] Tell us about the recent traffic offense expungement laws that passed — did Safe & Just Michigan play a role in that?

[27:25] The first goal of this bill package is to expand eligibility for the petition process. The second was to bring expungement policy more in line with charging practices.

[29:01] Did these bills make it easier for people to file for an expungement without the expense of an attorney?

[29:18] Michigan has passed a "Clean Slate Bill" where if someone with a criminal record stays out of trouble for ten years, their record will automatically be sealed/expunged.

[29:40] How does someone watching or listening to this episode know how to verify whether they can check "no" on a job or housing application asking about criminal history?

[30:20] Before the bill goes into effect in October 2022, Safe & Just Michigan will create a database/infrastructure where people can check the status of their record and whether their offenses have been sealed.

[34:14] The reality is that every state has hundreds of thousands of people with criminal records and we, as a society have a duty to clean those up so people can move on with their lives.

[34:41] Annually, there are $87 billion in lost productivity that arises from people underemployed or locked out of the labor force due to criminal records. 

[34:54] Over a ten-year period, University of Michigan Law School studied outcomes for people with expunged records. They discovered that within a year of their records being sealed, their incomes, on average, went up 23% and employment rates went up 11%. They also looked at recidivism rates and discovered these people commit crimes at rates equal to or less than the general public.

[36:33] In April this law goes into effect… but it may be a couple years before we see the automatic expungements, yes?

[37:03] In April, the law that advocates for an expanded petition process goes into effect.

[37:27] The State Court Administrative Office has an MC227 form that guides a person through the expungement application process as well as an MC228 form that one would hand to a judge if you successfully navigate the hearing process.

[38:20] If anyone has eligibility under the current law, please apply soon! Historically, it's a process that takes six-to-nine-months.

[39:15] Thank you to John Cooper for his admirable, hard work and for appearing on Open Mike!

[40:05] Make sure to check out Safe & Just Michigan. If you know someone with a criminal record, forward them this podcast so they can educate themselves on the expungement process.

[40:21] Thanks for checking out Open Mike — we'll see you next time!

Tricia Rojo Bushnell is the Executive Director of the Midwest Innocence Project, which works to free innocent people convicted of crimes they did not commit. Megan Crane is Co-Director at MacArthur Justice Center, an organization that fights cases to right individual wrongs, and confront racial and social inequality. Together, they have partnered to demand effective and sustainable reform of the criminal justice system. In this episode, they discuss encouraging, new trends in the judicial system, recent wins their organizations have landed, and what the future holds for the American mass incarceration crisis.

Show Notes

[01:03] Welcome to Tricia Rojo Bushnell and Megan Crane!

[01:18] Tricia, let's start with you! Give us a little bit about your background and The Midwest Innocence Project, the clinic you're currently working on.

[02:20] Tricia, you are an attorney as well, correct?

[02:59] Megan Crane, what are you up to with the MacArthur Justice Center?

[04:39] The litigation you're discussing… how does it differ from a normal 6500 Motion that has to be filed for relief from judgment?

[05:54] If there is clear misconduct in their case, many exonerees will file a civil suit against the state, county, police department, etc. if it's clear there was misconduct throughout the process.

[06:47] Tricia, tell us about this partnership between The Midwest Innocence Project and MacArthur Justice Center and how it helps get people who are wrongfully convicted out of prison.

[08:34] You're covering five states and the majority is coming out of a single city… what are the trends you're seeing that are coming out of St. Louis?

[09:12] There have been historic problems with law enforcement in St. Louis… it hasn't had the same type of reckoning that cities like Chicago and Detroit have had with their police departments and prosecutors' offices.

[12:44] Is your focus more on prevention of wrongful conviction, or getting the wrongfully convicted released from prison, or both?

[15:54] Michigan does have some great innocence organizations, but who's advocating the legislature for change?

[16:55] I love that you're finding these problems in cases and bringing it to legislators' attentions, urging them to change laws. And it sounds like you're getting some amazing traction with the legislature and governor in Kansas who are creating and passing these protective laws. Are you finding they're receptive to your requests?

[18:47] Have you been successful in keeping the corruption of jail house informants to a minimum?

[20:16] Have you had all of those requests passed in any one state?

[20:54] Megan, what are some initiatives you and MacArthur are working on to fix these problems?

[21:39] The Missouri public defender system is run by people trying to do the right thing who haven't received the bare minimum amount of money from the state to adequately represent clients.

[23:40] People become public defenders because they have a passion for it, but they're fighting with their hands tied behind their back.

[24:56] The Bail Project is doing incredible work across the nation as a critical tool to prevent needless incarceration oftentimes caused by racial and economic disparities.

[25:31] The lawsuit that you're talking about — are you gaining traction on that currently?

[26:40] Oftentimes people facing charges are poor, uneducated, and are handed an attorney whose case history is hard to verify… there's no Google star-rating. In all the cases we've looked at, an attorney has been disbarred or reprimanded after wrongful convictions where people have served years behind bars. There's no system of accountability. What can these people do to protect themselves?

[28:23] Tricia is one of the 2% of American lawyers who are Latina. When you create a public defender's association or community of lawyers that is predominantly upper-middle class and white, you create an environment of poor communication and cultural barriers that keep lawyers from properly hearing their clients.

[29:15] We're at a point where we have to be reckoning with the role systemic racism plays in both prosecution and defense attorneys unconsciously improperly representing people of color.

[32:47] It's very difficult to hold corrupt people within the judicial system accountable because of qualified immunity and the fact that they keep moving and ascending higher in the ranks.

[34:53] MacArthur focuses on the legal aspect of what happens when someone who is wrongfully imprisoned sues the bad actors that led to their conviction. Most of the time the bad actors are insulated and protected by the legal doctrine of qualified immunity. The good news is that there is bipartisan support against qualified immunity and there are jurisdictions across the country looking at ending it.

[37:35] Tricia, you had something exciting happen at your office last week. Can you take us through what happened with your client, Olin Pete Coones?

[40:07] How much time did it take from the time you heard of Pete's case to the time he got out of prison?

[43:44] Tricia, I was going through the website and saw another client of yours, Michael Politte. Another fourteen-year-old who was wrongly convicted of his mother's murder and has since spent his life in prison… You're doing amazing work — if any of our audience want to help, how can they?

[44:12] To help, visit the Midwest Innocence Project website, and you can learn about multiple ways to help. They will soon be releasing their annual report which contains information you can send legislators, clients, prosecutors, asking for them to look into creating conviction integrity units, provide funding for video conferencing for disabled or deaf persons to communicate with their attorneys, amongst many other initiatives.

[45:55] You can also support MacArthur by visiting the MacArthur Justice Center website and going on their wrongful conviction page. Read about their projects and case… because the MacArthur Justice Center and MIP have a partnership, donations made to MIP will also support Macarthur.

[47:25] The Innocence Network will also inform you about innocence organizations within your region and see briefs that are filed, current issues being dealt with, annual conferences, etc.

[47:54] One of the best ways to help is also raise awareness about cases via social media.

[48:10] It's important to raise awareness because anybody could become a juror, be charged with something, be a witness, or be in some type of position to wield influence over a case.

[48:58] It feels like this issue is "out there" more, and there's a ground swell of awareness and movement starting to take off. Do you get the same sense?

[50:40] Thank you to Tricia and Megan for being here, it meant a lot!

[51:25] Please donate to these causes if you feel moved by any of these stories and share this episode with those who need to see it. Thank you for watching Open Mike — until next time!

Dr. Jon Gould is an internationally known expert on justice policy, social change, and government reform. An accomplished author, his book The Innocence Commission: Preventing Wrongful Convictions and Restoring the Criminal Justice System was named an Outstanding Academic Title by the American Library Association. In this episode of Open Mike, Dr. Gould walks us through the complex network of issues that has resulted in a widespread, wrongful conviction crisis affecting up to 5% of all incarcerated people. The only solution may be a comprehensive upheaval of the criminal justice system…

Show Notes

[00:20] Dr. Jon Gould's background and bio

[00:50] Welcome to Jon Gould!

[01:14] You went to University of Michigan undergrad, Harvard for law school, Harvard for your Master's, and ph. D at University of Chicago — you may be the smartest person I've had on the show!

[01:53] You work at Arizona State University now… where were you before that?

[02:12] Your book, The Innocence Commission: Preventing Wrongful Convictions and Restoring the Criminal Justice System, was recently named an Outstanding Academic Title by the American Library Association. Tell us why you wrote this book and what you discovered along this journey.

[05:02] A lot of our recent guests have been talking about this groundswell of exposing wrongful convictions. In your opinion, how important is it to expose what's going on, to try and give our country confidence in the criminal justice system?

[06:23] What are some of the most common reasons for innocent people going to prison?

[07:22] In a study Jon conducted, wrongful incarcerations oftentimes occur when prosecution doesn't offer strong evidence. It's counterintuitive…but these cases languish on prosecutors' desks as they wait for more evidence to come in… they end up taking it to a grand jury, the grand jury ends up indicting… once the case gets into court, juries are much more likely to believe the person is guilty… sometimes defendants will even plead guilty or falsely confess to crimes they didn't commit.

[08:31] Now that people working in the system have identified several, core causes of wrongful incarcerations, do you think it's getting better?

[10:30] While sensational instances of wrongful convictions draw media attention, the vast majority of these convictions are inadvertently caused by well-intentioned people working on the case who have simply made mistakes caused by hyper focus or tunnel vision. Because of this, they're much harder to identify and much harder to prevent.

[13:10] Once you attach yourself to the idea that someone is a suspect, it becomes harder to distance yourself from that notion as more evidence comes in that challenges it.

[16:30] Let's talk about the near-miss study… It was a three-year study that identified ten statistically significant factors that distinguish a wrongful conviction from a "near-miss." What were the important findings in this study and what do they mean?

[21:45] A false confession gets you arrested and indicted, but it doesn't necessarily, on its own, lead to a wrongful conviction — they can be weeded out. The period between indictment and trial is when people can be weeded out of the system before being falsely convicted.

[22:25] That's fascinating! What's the second biggest point you took from the study?

[22:40] Almost always, a combination of tunnel vision, poor defense, weak facts, and Brady violations (refusal to turn over exculpatory evidence) lead to wrongful convictions… all factors that lead to wrongful convictions need to be studied and dealt with, not just one or two. It's a problem that needs to be solved comprehensively.

[27:35] We're not talking about hundreds… we're talking about tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, of people wrongly sitting in prisons, waiting for trial, hoping for attention about their cases to get out. I don't think anybody wants to see that continue, yet… bad cops, bad prosecutors, bad judges — do you ever see them held accountable?

[29:01] For every person who is wrongly incarcerated, there's also someone who committed the crime out on the street. Wrongful conviction cases make us less safe as a nation, and they cost us a lot of money each year in tax dollars.

[29:45] Are you teaching these types of topics at ASU? What else do you teach there?

[33:23] While the scandalous cases of intentional corruption within the criminal justice system cast a light on the wrongful incarceration crisis, it's now time to focus on the tremendous number of cases that may not be as easy to identify.

[36:17] Thank you to Dr. Jon Gould for coming on Open Mike! Make sure to check out his book, The Innocence Commission: Preventing Wrongful Convictions and Restoring the Criminal Justice System.

[36:58] Thanks for watching Open Mike!

On April 15, 1994, two men in Kansas City, Kansas were shot dead in broad daylight. Lamonte McIntyre, an innocent seventeen-year-old, was falsely accused of the crime. Due to multiple, hideous perversions of justice, he would spend the next twenty-three years in prison. Today, he is a successful businessman and co-founder of Miracle of Innocence, a non-profit designed to get other wrongfully convicted people out of prison and provide them the resources necessary to thrive. But no amount of financial prosperity or philanthropy can make up for lost time. In this episode of Open Mike, Lamonte takes us through the events of that fateful day, breaks down the corruption that defined his trial, and explains how, after everything, he remains unbitter about his misfortune.

Crime affects all of our lives—anyone can be accused, know someone accused, or serve on a jury. Mitigation expert and author Victoria Rusk gets to the "whys" behind a crime, helping jurors, DAs, and attorneys to work for fair and appropriate punishments, in hopes of reducing the American mass incarceration crisis. Her recent book The Handbook of Mitigation has quickly become canon within the legal mitigation sphere for anyone interested in sentencing justice. How did a former broadcast journalist from Lubbock, Texas, become a leading professional advocate for fair sentencing? Find out for yourself on Episode 79 of Open Mike.

Show Notes

[00:27] Victoria's background and bio.

[01:31] Welcome to Victoria Rusk!

[01:49] You're a mitigation specialist — can you tell us what a mitigation specialist is?

[03:06] That's fascinating! You're usually brought in after the conviction?

[03:32] So, it's not just death row, it's anyone facing a serious criminal trial, and you are brought in to humanize the defendant so lawyers can argue the best they can for them?

[04:55] As I mentioned in my intro, and I don't think many people know this, Michigan has a man named Marvin Gabrion on death row. What do you do for someone like Mr. Gabrion before trial? How do you help someone facing such serious consequences?

[07:27] The key in humanizing someone is to figure out how they love, and how they express and show love.

[07:57] You're dealing with some people who are hurting and killing families… how do you show their capability of love to a judge or jury? What are some examples?

[09:53] Creating an atmosphere of trust and compassion with a client's family or other loved ones will make them more inclined to freely offer up humanizing information to a jury.

[12:12] We've talked a lot about how little resources there are for indigent defendants and you're spending hundreds, if not thousands, of hours on an individual case. Who's paying your bills?

[13:48] The criminal justice system is broken —attorneys have hundreds and hundreds of cases… the COVID-19 pandemic has the ability to turn the criminal justice system inside out in terms of both humanizing those working within the system and those accused of a crime.

[14:08] I didn't know that anyone with a capital case was entitled to services like yours. What about in a state like Michigan that doesn't have the death penalty unless you're on federal land? Is there such a thing as a mitigation specialist if someone is facing life in prison without parole?

[16:09] Post-conviction in mitigation is very different because there are additional politics in the process to consider and you have to really evaluate what's going to be convincing or moving.

[17:02] If you're arguing that someone is not guilty, you may not want to be arguing mitigation… are you usually arguing mitigation when someone is likely guilty or definitely guilty?

[19:41] So, it's almost like any case… drunk driving, robbery… you can help humanize the dependent and look at the bigger picture to understand why they're in the situation they are. You're kind of like a social worker.

[21:00] We're talked about issues with mass incarceration and prison overcrowding in this country… how can mitigation specialization help that?

[22:41] In general, besides buying your book, The Handbook for Mitigation, which every attorney in the country should get… what are your recommendations for someone who can't afford to hire you?

[23:40] There two are trainings Victoria recommends: Dr. Donna Beegle's poverty-informed training, and Undoing Racism: The People's Institute for Survival and Beyond.

[26:06] Thank you to Victoria Rusk for being on the show and thanks for watching Open Mike Podcast!