What does it really mean to obey Christ’s command to love—family, church, nation, and the nations—in the right order? In this episode of the American Reformer Podcast, Timon Cline sits down with Alex Kocman, author of Ordered to Love, to unpack the Ordo Amoris, Protestant political theology, missions, and patriotism.

Alex Kocman is a Christian writer, podcaster, and church leader. He serves as Director of Communications and Engagement for ABWE and co-hosts The Missions Show and The World View podcasts. He is the author of the brand new book, Ordered to Love.

https://press.founders.org/shop/ordered-to-love/

Learn more about Alex Kocman's work:

https://alexkocman.com/about/

Why Ordered to Love had to be written:

https://alexkocman.com/2026/01/16/why-ordered-to-love-needed-to-be-written/

Timestamps:

0:00 – Intro & Welcome to American Reformer Podcast

0:37 – Who Is Alex Kocman? Missions, Media, and Theology

4:02 – Why Ordered to Love? The Flashpoints Behind the Book

10:25 – Universalism vs. Parochialism in the Church

16:53 – Do Christians Have a Duty to Love Their Own Nation?

24:25 – Nations in Scripture: From Abraham to Revelation

34:17 – How Grace Restores Nature

40:32 – What Is a Nation? Beyond ‘Propositional’ America

48:39 – Evangelical Guilt, Vocation, and ‘Real’ Ministry

58:04 – Final Exhortation: Missionaries, Activists, and the Order of Love

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The American Reformer Podcast is  hosted by Josh Abbotoy and Timon Cline, recorded remotely in the United States, and edited by Jared Cummings.

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